Michael Knowles vs. 3 Feminists | Whatever Debates #4

welcome to a special debate edition of. the whatever podcast coming to you live. from Santa Barbara California I'm your. host and moderator Brian Atlas a few. quick announcements before the show. begins this podcast say viewer supported. heavy YouTube demonetization so please. consider donating through streamlabs. instead of super chatting as YouTube. takes a brutal 30% cut some quick Maths. for y'all so if you Super Chat 100. YouTube takes 30 if you donate 100. streamlabs only takes three. streamlabs.com whatever link is in the. description deson donations in super.

chats $10 and up will be displayed in. stream overlay you can see the uh rest. of the various triggers in the. description uh if the TTS we do have TTS. here if it's too disruptive we may. either delay it or boost it just for the. sake of a smooth stream and debate. please see the description for all. triggers in full details without further. Ado I'm joined today by Michael nolles. he is a conservative political. commentator actor thespian author rap. critic music critic and media host.

he graduated with a ba in history in. Italian from Yale University he is the. host of the Michael N show at the daily. wire welcome Michael thank you for. having me good to be back good good to. have you back his feminist debate. opponents are we have Jasmine Jafar the. self-described her words not mine her. lawyer 304 lawyer excuse me 304 lawyer. she received her JD and has a bachelor's. in psychology she also does porn and. only fans I do hence oh have you ever.

litigated while could you like doing a I. can I still have my license but there's. no reason I make money she's uh joined. by farha khi she is an online content. creator she received a bachelor's degree. in English and pixie as she goes online. she graduated from University of Florida. with a triple Major getting her BS in. Psychology and a ba in philosophy and. economics so uh this is is sort of a.

sort of generalized debate here we're. having uh we have Michael nlls here. conservative versus I I if you guys want. to uh articulate your political leanings. uh feel free maybe one by one but I. suspect you're both you're all uh excuse. me you're all. Progressive left leaning liberal leaning. yeah depends on the issue but I would. say Center left to left on most things. okay yeah I generally consider myself a. progressive overall okay and do you all. consider yourselves.

feminists depending on the definition I. hope none of you bamboozled me here okay. so um so I think a good jumping off. point here and I think we'll start with. you guys and then we'll have Michael. respond what is. feminism um I think the the most common. definition is the social political and. economic equality between the Sexes so. according to that definition I would. definitely identify as a feminist okay. yeah in general I agree with that. definition I believe that we should not.

be discriminated unfairly on the basis. of sex if I had to add any addition to. feminism I would agree with all that and. then I would also add on just kind of. adding more cultural currency to just. female spaces women's interests and just. women's proclivities in. general that. last if that's what it were but I don't. I actually think feminism does the. opposite of that in practice and frankly. going all the way back to the beginning. of feminism in the 18th century probably. my definition of feminism would be.

Gloria steam's definition she was the. very famous feminist of the second wave. which is that a woman needs a man like a. fish needs a bicycle feminism is the. idea that men and women are not. complimentary they're not different and. helpful to one another but they're. identical and IND discernible that there. you know there are some superficial. differences you ladies might be a little. prettier perhaps than I am but all in. all we're basically exactly the same and. I I don't think that's true I think it's. a false view of human nature and I think. it's harmful to everybody and especially.

harmful to women right I've worked with. GL steam's company wom women's media. sent for like four years back my. condolences and obviously that's like a. more crass interpretation of I think. what she meant by that which I think is. more so she's more so um characterizing. the fact that women in general when. they're taught how to self-actualize. it's typically tied to contingency on a. man and getting married and starting a. family versus men when they're told um. the ways to self-actualize it doesn't. necessarily require a woman so obviously.

her saying a woman needs a man the way a. fish needs a bicycle sounds crass and. like she's being a bit bit meandrous and. obviously some radical interpretations. may take it that way but I think what. she's trying to say is that women you. can like Define yourself in your career. and your potential outside of Simply. marriage and children what do you mean. by the phrase self actualize um just. like live up to your potential you know. use your rational faculties you know use. the design of your potential in your. brain I agree that I want to live up to. my Highest Potential I want women to. live up to their Highest Potential I. want Total human flourishing but I think.

you've given away the game on the. radical and liberal Foundation of. feminism which is the notion that it. comes purely from the self it's a matter. of self- Liberation that that I can do. totally. self-sufficiently as if I were an island. unto myself but no man is an island unto. himself and so I didn't make myself I uh. didn't create the family that I was born. into I didn't create the community that. I was born into the country that I was. born into I take the opposite view of. the liberal view the Liberals say that. man is fundamentally an individual the. conservatives would say no man is a.

social creature you know man is a. political animal and so the irony I. think of someone like a glorious dyam. saying that we we or insinuating that we. just want women to live up to their. fullest potential is that the the way. that she and the feminists have done it. is to totally erase women and I think. this goes back way further than the. second wave you sometimes hear. conservatives the squishy kind they say. we love the feminism but only the you. know the second wave not the third wave. or we like the first wave not the second.

whatever we're on like the 10th wave now. but it's been a problem from the. beginning even Mary walstone craft who. who founds feminism with the Vindication. of the rights of wom she writes that uh. Providence has created men in such a way. that they are um more inclined to Virtue. and they're more endowed with virtue and. I think that's exactly what Gloria steum. thinks because the the way that second. wave feminism actually was practiced was. it denied the virtues particular to.

women and it said the only way to be. virtuous and to flourish is to be a man. so if women want to be virtuous and. flourish they got to dress like men and. they got to have the same attitudes. towards sex as men and they got to work. in the workplace exactly as men do and. they just have to pretend to be men but. I think that's very uh disrespectful to. women and harmful to them because if a. woman tries to be a man she's always. going to fail just look at the pen swim. team now when when the men compat. against the women swimmers and and. defeat them this is why some feminists. wisely are turning against the. transgender ideology I think women are.

great and women have a wonderful nature. and when women are fully women they can. really flourish and when they pretend to. be men they get miserable I think um. what a lot of feminists would push back. on or worry about is this idea that we. have ascribed gender to certain things. are kind of agendered so for example. when it comes to the workplace um the. idea that like oh no women must stay at. home going out and working is a man's. job seems to be something that a lot of. people have contention with because it. seems like I'm not saying that women. don't have a place at home taking care.

of children but it doesn't seem like it. should necessarily be limited to just. that so for example um even like. throughout history you still have women. who despite taking care of home also. have like side jobs or side hustles or. stuff like that to help contribute to. the family so I think this whole idea. that's like oh no like women are just. trying to be men sometimes I wonder oh. no we are just saying that this is for a. man to do even though it seems like. there's more opportunity for women to. participate in those Arenas as well I. think you've just made my point though.

which is that you say throughout history. including long before feminism ever came. onto the scene women did plenty of. things you know in addition to just. being barefoot and pregnant in the. kitchen right they had uh they were. involved in their Community they had. side hustles as you put it um so so they. did all these things I mean I think of. the most famous anti-feminist American. of the 20th century it was phy Schley. phy Schley had six kids she was a. housewife she uh said The only person. whose permission she needs for her. political activism is her husbands which. irritated to no end she's one of the.

most important political figures of the. whole Century she single-handedly killed. the Equal Rights Amendment traveled all. over the country one of the most vaunted. figures in the American right uh she she. was able to do a lot of things in public. but she recognized that her particular. role that her husband never could have. that no man on Earth ever could have. even if he kids himself is to have. children to be a woman to be graceful. to to do the things that men can't do. and so she can do she can do things.

beyond that as well but uh if if you. erase the particular advantages of women. the women are are put at a disadvantage. I mean the problem is women were also. excluded from doing a lot of things so I. don't think anyone here thinks there are. no differences between men and women but. there's a lot of overlap as well and. while men and women may be different on. something on average to look at a woman. like I think you're you and some of your. other conservatives are Under Fire for. saying oh if it's a female pilot I'm. automatically going to assume that this. person is incompetent never said that.

though if if an airline tells me that. they are prioritizing Dei over uh Merit. in the cockpit I would probably book. another airl okay and that's I guess. that's a little I get what you're I get. that but my point is like to say women. are just emotional more emotional than. men that may be true on average but to. then look at a woman and just be like. automatically I'm going to assume this. woman is more emotional I think that. isn't that the last so why is it true on. average though it may be true on average. because we're different I've never said. we're not different but the problem is. to say we're different and then put us. into categories and be like there can be.

no out overlap women have to do this. role and men have to do this role that's. I think what feminism is pushing back on. what you're arguing for is a kind of. feminism that says actually uh all the. differences between men and women that's. totally true in the aggregate there you. know in these two different types but on. rare occasion there's going to be some. wom that rare like let's say like okay. gender roles like let's say most people. like let's say 70 to 80% of people will. fall into natural gender roles but then. there's still 20% of our population that. may not do we make a society where we.

force that 20% into these roles or do we. allow choice I think a lot of feminism. the Cornerstone feminism is choice for. women you can't St I'm not so sure about. that I'm not so sure because there was a. famous debate between Betty fedan Who. was the prominent American feminist and. Simone deovir one of the most famous. feminists of the 20th century it was in. 1975 and Betty freedan said what you. said she said look I think we should. give women a choice to maybe they want. to go out into the workplace or maybe. they want to stay home and raise their. kids but they should have a choice and. and Simone deoir who was a more.

consistent and intelligent feminist said. there can't be a choice and the reason. there can't be a choice is that if given. the choice most women would stay at home. and if most women stay at home women. will not be free if we want true women's. Liberation women must be forced to be. free and fedan recoiled from this. because she knew it wasn't going to play. well in Peoria but Simone deovir had had. the right point and I think that the. more consistent feminists have agreed. with her I don't know I mean feminism. has like it's gone so many different. directions so to pick the feminist that.

we don't agree with for this debate I. don't know if that's conducive to also. I'm not necessarily sure when you're. saying like oh no um most women would. stay at home that's a choice that they. would have because when you look at like. the uprisings of like feminism or when. they gained the most traction it was. postwar Era um partly because of the. reason why is because during these War. eras men went out they were a drafted. they had to go fight etc etc women were. expected to take up more um traditional. male spaces work and when the men came. back yeah um what ended up happening is.

that a lot of women did not want to. leave the jobs that they had they wanted. to keep um the somewhat level of. financial Independence that they were. able to gain and that's why we see like. these huge like feminist uprisings. during those periods of time so it seems. to me if you're saying that most women. would stay home um that just wouldn't. happen like women would have not had. like these feminist movements go forward. well the the feminists didn't want to. leave their jobs but women broadly. perhaps did so anecdotally people write. in a lot and they tell me Michael you. know i' at least while my kids are. little I'd love to stay home and raise. them maybe I'll go back to work after.

but I just can't it's you can't raise a. family in America for the average person. today on one income and that's a result. of women entering the workforce and. wages decrease which is why not only the. radical left but also the more um. commercially minded right-wing was in. favor of that it's the same reason. they're in favor of mass migration it. just lowers wages for people uh a lot of. women however seem to feel not that they. have the choice to to go to work but. that they have to and this is expressed. in a famous study that came out of upen. and was published by Yale in 2008 which. was the Paradox of declining female.

happiness and I love the way the study. opens up right in the abstract it says. despite the past 35 years I'm. paraphrasing but despite the past 35. years showing so much marked progress. and Improvement in the lives of women. women's happiness according to this meta. analysis has declined both absolutely. and relative to men so it's not even. just that everyone got more misr because. of I don't know a bad economy or. something women in particular became. less happy despite all the objective. improvements to their lives so to me the.

the obvious rejoiner to that is well. maybe those objective improvements. namely feminism that's the thing that. happened between 1973 and 2008 uh maybe. that wasn't an objective good maybe that. was just ill to the obvious rejoiner of. that is that women are becoming. disillusion with the life they had prior. they're like leaving the cave so to. speak allegorically and also I don't. think you should use self-reported. happiness as a metric of Justice or any. like objective good because you can plot. self-reported happiness with pretty much. any variable like highest reported crime.

violent crime in the United States also. is directly correlated to self-reported. happiness does that mean one cause is. the other no does that mean we should. think CRI highest violent crime is I'm. just saying in the periods of time when. we've had the most violent crime in the. United States there's also a correlation. between highest rates of self-reported. happy do well not not according to the. survey I just cited right if if. happiness has been declining steadily. especially for women since 1973 to 2008. you had a major Crim spike in the early. '90s but you didn't have a major spike. in happiness so perhaps there's some. survey that you're referring to in some. cities. it wouldn't uh but also even women.

living traditional lifestyles are seeing. a downfall in happiness so why is it the. women who are still living the type of. lifestyle that you would probably. prescrib to women are also having a. decrease in happiness I'm not I'm not. convinced of that the Institute of. family studies that a big and there's a. lot of State out there that actually. children make you less happy so there is. this problem happen happening where. we're like okay why are people less. happy but we don't know we don't know. what it is and then you would expect. then that the like if you looked at the. most unhappiest countries you would. expect Canada the Nordic country. Scandinavian countries CU they're very. egalitarian and you're not seeing that. they they actually have higher happiness.

levels well they have the highest rates. of alcoholism in the world you think of. Denmark Norway Iceland in particular so. I don't know how happy they are now. you're changing but if we're going to. just go by what makes people happy I. don't know if I I think there are. arguments to be made about like. community and those things may make. people less happy but this idea that's. because women aren't having children. when we also have data a lot of data. that shows children especially in the. United States has the biggest happiness. Gap and then we're seeing that other. countries that are more feminist are. also not having like if you compare like. Scandinavian countries to like the East. like I'm my parents are immigrates from.

Iran Iran has really high unhappiness. levels a lot of countries yeah exactly. so I don't know if you can say that this. is causing that right well yeah Nordic. countries also have much more. homogeneity which is correlated with uh. political happiness but so there all all. um of those differences but I I think. the uh the point about children making. you unhappy and the point about leaving. the cave I think those are both a little. bit of a cope because they're uh beled. by the fact that uh if it were just that. women were coming into their own now and.

they were recognizing the oppression of. which they were not conscious previously. then why would they keep getting less. and less happy you know at a certain. point aren't you supposed to turn the. corner and become more happy in your. Independence but that's not what's. happened for 35 years it just gets worse. worse and worse including relative to. men and then for children you you look. over the past U what 70 plus years now. 74 years since 1950 to present day the. marriage rate has dropped by 60% and the. birth rate has dropped by 50%. so just looking at the whole society we.

are having many many fewer children than. we were before and yet we're much less. happy even even like like Pakistan are. having less kids sure I'm just I'm just. pointing out you're saying that having. fewer children makes you happier and I'm. saying we're having many fewer children. and Americans are much less happy and. you you see this even Beyond just random. surve I kind I kind of want to push back. on this idea that we've gotten um more. unhappy as time has progressed because. at least to my understanding what's. happened in the last like you know 20 or. 30 years is an increased awareness of. like mental health and what that means. so it's not necessarily that people were.

really happy before and now suddenly are. miserable it's just that now we're. actually having data where people can. talk openly about their mental health. unhappiness and not be as stigmatized as. before if we look at the 1950s and even. like Housewives around that time we see. like there is actually like a huge rate. of like narcotic usage and basically. like prescriptions to that level um so. I'm not necessarily if I would go as far. to say um yeah we've gotten unhappiness. as time we've gotten more unhappy as. time has gone by I would say more likely. oh no we've been able to properly report.

measure and assess mental health as time. has gone by well listen I'm uh very. inclined toward your view that social. scientific studies are bunk I mean. there's a major replication prices I. think it's all ridiculous I will cite. those social science stats when they. serve my argument because why not that's. what we do these days but I agree I'm. I'm skeptical of measuring happiness and. all the rest of it but on the mental. health point I think here we do have. some pretty firm data and it contradicts. the argument you're making which is uh. right now one in five middle-aged women.

in the country is hooked on. anti-depression drugs on any given day. they're taking them women are two and a. half times as likely as men to take. these depression drugs it is ubiquitous. at this point and and the rates of. taking depression drugs are going up. it's getting much worse so if we're not. getting uh less and less happy why do. people keep taking more and more. depression drugs why were housewives in. the ' 50s Downing like a bottle of wine. at lunch every day I'm just saying I I'm. not so sure I mean these are anec weting. self-medication now with actually like.

medically backed drugs that actually. help women with their mental health. issues it's also now that when you're. sad you just go to the doctor and they. give you anti-depressant drugs I don't. know how much more depressed people. actually are other than the fact that. they're just dishing them out to. everybody and they're dishing them out. more and more and more sure you can. blame the pharmaceutical industry the. medical industry I'm just pointing out. you know one in order to argue against. these social science statistics one has. to just turn toward unfalsifiable. anecdotes and memes you know all the. house wives were all miserable in the '. 50s they were secretly you know drinking.

behind their husband's backs but I know. maybe they were maybe they weren't all I. have are the data available saying that. more people are on anti-depressants it's. not telling you why it's not telling you. what caused it it's not telling. you well that's what we're debating here. is what could have caused it you're. saying oh it's no but I'm I'm not saying. you know maybe they hate their husband. maybe they hate their kids maybe they. don't like you know the weather in their. town is a great example of this anyone. now can just be like oh I have trouble. focusing does everyone have ADHD or are. people just getting these you know these. are questions that we should ask before.

we jump to a conclusion that no I agree. look I think that they're pathologizing. a lot of an ordinary aspects of human. nature but I think part of the reason. that we do that is because we're so. radically misinterpreting human nature. which brings us right back to feminism. the clearest example of this is the. transgender argument which is all anyone. ever talks about these days I'm frankly. sick of it we know that men and women. are different but but that shows you uh. you know a major confusion about human. nature if a man can become a woman then. we have been really wrong about.

anthropology for a long time and most. reasonable people know a man can't. become a woman uh but but that error in. human nature goes back much earlier than. transgenderism it go you know this is. why I have pity for the feminists who. are trans exclusionary radical feminists. because they don't realize that it was. their own ideology that led to this the. the premise of transgenderism is that. men and women are basically the same so. much so that one can become the other. but if if that's true you know then that.

has to come from somewhere and where it. came from was the redefinition of. marriage to say that a man and a woman. is the same as man and a man is the same. as a woman and a woman and that comes. from the sexual Revolution and that. comes from feminism which says a woman. needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle. uh so yeah I agree the these errors in. human nature can lead to all sorts of. problems did you say transgenderism is. people thinking that there's no. differences and why would they need to. transition that's a great question I. don't think that's what transgenderism. beli that there's no difference between. men and women transgenderism believes.

that men and women are so uh similar. that one can become the other it's which. is different than the feminist to say. men and women are so similar that a. woman can do anything a man can do but. transgenderism takes that principle to. the extreme which is men and women are. so similar they're they're not. complimentary sex is not immutable it's. not an Inseparable accident of being as. you know an Aristotelian or St Thomas. aquinus might say but no it's actually. just kind of a social construct and it's. so socially constructed that I can go.

down to my doctor and have him. reconstruct my chest and all of a sudden. I've magically become the opposite sex. that that error comes from feminism okay. before we pivot to transgenderism can we. go back to the happiness feminist. conversation tied up so I wanted to ask. you do you think that should be the. ultimate good in the metric for which we. base like our justice system and our. just overall societal progress on is. self-reported happiness well I don't. know even what you mean by societal. progress I mean you know Justice is a. habit of virtue that inclines the will. to give to one what he deserves right so. it's it's about desserts and so we.

protect certain rights and we enforce. certain laws at least we used to we. don't really do that as much in this. country anymore um and an aspect of. political Justice would be human. flourishing so when we talk about. happiness I'm all I'm very interested in. happiness but I'm interested in. happiness in the way that Aristotle's. interested in happiness which is udonia. you know a way to live the best possible. life and I think that we can know. something about that through our. faculties of Reason which are objective. and if reason weren't objective and at. least somewhat reliable we couldn't have.

self-government now the way that. happiness is often used in our modern. culture is Hedonism is well is Hedonism. like the utilitarians right just means. getting pleasure and avoiding pain or is. just totally subjective to the point. where you say well don't yuck my yum you. know. what's you know I maybe I like this and. you don't like this well sure I mean. restaurants have menus for a reason but. there's there must be some limiting. principle here we must know something. about what is conducive to human. happiness uh and if we don't then how do.

we have self-government completely agree. I just don't know if self-reported. happiness um is more congruent with the. subjective reports of happiness or that. udia that you're referring to sure it's. just the best we've got toe something. you said in the beginning about. individualism like do you prefer. sociocentric countries do you not love. America and the what do you mean. sociocentric like countries where like. you're like oh part of the problem with. feminism is so focused on the self well. I think that is one of the cornerstones. of like Western Civilization is instead. of being it's a very liberal view of. Western Civilization yeah which I think.

is one what makes Western Civilization. so wonderful like we are one of the only. I think we are like the only one founded. on individualistic rights like. principles that we I don't think we. really are founded that way I think. that's what people say we were founded. on now but you know you you hear a. phrase like liberal democracy that's the. the popular way to describe our country. now uh that phrase appears basically. nowhere in the English language until. the 30s then it jumps a little bit in. the 40s it really doesn't take off in in. English literature until the ' 80s uh. America the founding fathers didn't. think of us as a liberal democracy they.

were influenced by some Enlightenment. thinkers John Lock and montc say but. they were also influenced by the. classical tradition and the classical. tradition is one of the common good not. in the Communist sense of that but again. I don't I they thought the common good. was best pursued by having individual. rights instead of like that's one of the. reasons we founded ourselves on a. separation of church and state you have. the right we were not founded on a. separation of church and state I mean we. can get into that I think sure it's it's. well incidental to this point but it.

appears in no founding document there's. one errant letter from Thomas Jefferson. to a friend that mentions the phrase uh. and the the Treaty of Tripoli makes some. uh little knock on Christianity to. appease the Muslim Pirates Who were. capturing our sailers but you know the. when the first amendment established uh. no church at the national level the. reason for that is not that there was a. firm separation of church and state it's. because there were already established. churches at the state level in many. states that persisted for decades after. the the whole thing is that you can't. have a test for for political office.

they purposely left it out you're saying. that this that they didn't me they refer. to religion explicitly and they say we. won't have a church at the national. level because we have churches. established at the state wa it says that. where does it say that in the. Constitution that we're only doing this. because we have churches not only doing. that but uh we can see it in history and. in the ratification debates that's why. in a number of states for decades after. the ratification you had established. churches and this changes through 19th. century Juris Prudence on fortunately. but that's you know that has nothing to. do obviously with the founding of the.

country furthermore you know you have in. the national anthem which come also. comes from the 19th century uh the. notion that this be our motto and God is. our trust which is from a forgotten uh. verse of the The Star Spangled Banner. you also have it in our money you also. have it in the benedictions and the. invocations of the Continental Congress. and the Constitutional Convention so you. you also have it in the speeches of. George Washington and so you know John. Adams says that the con that the. American government will be based on the. Christian morality John Jay first Chief. Justice of the United States is the same. thing he goes even further yeah and I'm.

sure you know there's a bunch of quotes. I can pull out from the other side you. can there AR there's one fromom God to. took the Bible and cut out every. reference to the Supernatural and kept. the rest for wisdom Thomas Jefferson. made did make a commentary on the Bible. uh that and his views were a little odd. I grant you but I've already granted to. you that in a private letter Thomas. Jefferson advocated for a separation of. church and state and and our. constitution does right there's a free. yes there's a separation of church and. state you have. first amend what what does where do you.

see Congress shall make no I mean I like. pull it up we can read it word for word. but I mean like it is there we didn't. just all this yeah read listen I didn't. go to law school. so while she looks that up one of the. other questions I wanted to get into. Congress shall make no law respecting an. establishment of religion or prohibiting. free exercise thereof right so now where. do you see a separation of church and. state well when you say congress shall. make no La respecting establishment of. religion that is that separation right.

and so what is the Congress the federal. government is that what you're saying so. you're saying it's the lawmaking body. for the federal government right yes but. if like before the incorporation State. of California starts to be like actually. in all our schools we're going to start. enforcing Christian ideology in our. public schools that would be. unconstitutional under this un first. amendment in fact that was the way that. basically all schools operate in the. country until the middle of the 20th. century until the Supreme Court said. that you cannot you can't have prayer in. schools and you can't teach because of. the First Amendment well no the middle. the middle step was the incorporation of.

the Bill of Rights to to the okay sure. but that's been Incorporated unless you. don't want that part right but you're. just saying the country was founded on. the separation of church and state I'm. saying that that wasn't even brought up. as a matter of jurist prudence until. many many decades later and then it. wasn't enforced in schools until a. century after that yeah because no. rights were right that's what the incorp. I'm just confused do you believe the. Bill of Rights is like a founding. document or not the Bill of Rights is a. list of 10 amendments to the US. constition do you believe it is a found. in document um when it comes like. basically the United States as a whole.

yeah yeah okay so then to me I don't. understand why the conversation is. continuing because if you believe the. Bill of Rights is integral to the. founding of this nation and the Bill of. Rights of First Amendment states that no. religion shall be I think you're just I. think you're misunderstanding what that. phrase meant to the people who wrote it. and the people who lived under that. government it just seems to me I where. would the misunderstanding be the whole. IDE your misunderstanding that uh the. Bill of Rights did not apply to the. states at the time and the lack of an.

establishment of a church at the. national level does not imply that there. cannot be an establishment of a church. at the state level which we we know for. a fact there was at the time of. ratification I guess I'm I am a little. bit confused because I don't understand. if the Bill of Rights is part of the. federal um basically legislature right. it's part of the federal law we are. under yeah but um the whole point of. creating the Constitution and according. to the Federalist Papers as well is that. oh no we need some like overarching law. that that you know goes throughout the. nation so that way that we can be a.

United Nation not exactly so federalism. right refers to uh the principle of. subsidiarity to the The View that there. would be different levels of government. frankly all the way down to the. individual right in the family and the. community and the state and and the. national government so certain powers. and rights were reserved to the federal. government but they were relatively. small at the uh ratification of the. Constitution and then many many rights. and laws uh and Powers were reserved to. the states and that some were reserved. to the people so do you think it's bad.

that the First Amendment now applies to. all the states let's let's try to keep. it a little focused on this so I have a. question for you guys one uh do we live. in the patriarchy and if so and I want. everybody to respond do we live in the. patriarchy and if so is the patriarchy. good or bad we'll start with Farah come. this way and then we'll have. Michael I think it's such semantics at. this point um as of now I'm going to say. I don't think we necessarily live in a. patriarchy do I think women are. marginalized in a disproportionate way.

in relation to men 100% but would I use. the term patriarchy as a blanket term. not. necessarily yeah I guess it depends on. how a person is defining patriarchy well. let's maybe start off by defining. patriarchy okay um if we're defining. patriarchy as a system of power where. men uphold most of governance and Social. Power um I would say that there is an. argument to be made that we currently. live in a patriarchy um. whether that's good or I personally I'm.

the thought that that's bad but yeah it. depends on what definition you guys want. to use I'm open to it do you guys concur. with her definition of patriarchy can. you repeat it sorry basically it's a. system of power where men. hold hold most of the capital social the. capital social political power so. obviously we know historically this is. true and if we're looking at a global. level or are we going to like refine it. to like United States because these are. going to be very different conversations. and West we the West so I would say like. and you see this that like it's more.

prevalent in countries that are poorer. that have less technological advancement. as industrial Machinery be came became a. thing and education and all that and so. now I don't think like in the west I'm. not going to sit here and say like women. don't have equal rights um I think some. of that history in certain ways like in. maybe culture and our perception of men. and women has has is still here but no. and I would say that what it hurts men. and women to the same degree if in some. ways yeah I would say that okay so far. you don't think that there's a.

patriarchy or are you unsure I think the. word patriarchy is a bit harsh and I. don't know if I would apply it to yeah. how we live in the west no okay but you. two do believe there is a there's an. argument to be made depending on what. level um you're talking about when it. comes to power or how much power you. have to have to establish. patriarchy yeah I guess I'm I kind of. think more than you do that we live in a. patriarchy not not as a matter of law. yeah the the law says we don't the law. if anything has inverted we're closer to.

a matriarchy except we don't have kids. anymore so there are fewer mothers but. uh as a matter of practical living I. think we still do live in a patriarchy I. think men wield probably more power than. we ever did it's just in a very. perverted way so men you know wield the. power to have casual hookups women. statistically tend to not prefer casual. hookups men tend to like them quite a. lot more and women prefer a longer last. relationship that's what I would agree. with I think that's what I meant by. cultural currency I think men have the.

Monopoly on like the cultural Zeitgeist. and women move in lock step to like. men's Desires in the male gay I would. agree with that in terms of politically. I don't know if I would agree as much. but I agree with that definition totally. totally and so you know the the irony. though is that all of that sexual. Revolution came about because of. feminism you know but it it it didn't. really give women I think what they. thought they were going to get I think. if anything it gave men more power I. remember thinking about this many years. ago when I was in college and the hookup. culture was really burgeoning I thought. is this the greatest trick that men ever.

played on women that these women who. call themselves feminists think that. they're going to be empowered by letting. men just use them whenever they want and. then cast them aside and go sleep with. some other woman girl power I completely. agree and I actually don't think women. are the culprit or feminists are the. culprit today of hookup culture I think. it's more like neocons tradcons pickup. artist the one who says that you need to. unpack the F traditionalists don't don't. support hookup culture at all I say as a. you know proud traditionalist I would. say that also there's a distinction. between the moral question like if.

you're a woman and you hook up like. that's part of what the sexual. Revolution was there to do to give women. autonomy to be able to consent to things. to not have a Scarlet Letter you know. attached to them forever because they. decided to do a hookup and then the. other question is is it healthy no not. not the same if you look at Social attit. yeah but if you look at social attitudes. in the last 20 years on things like. casual sex basically we're it's moving. in this direction the whole reason you. have a show is cuz most people think. like me and you have something to fight. against I don't think so I think I have. a really popular show because you know a. lot of people are living under our.

cultural Zeitgeist but they realize that. it's wrong and some people but I mean if. you look at polling and stuff I me. especially if you look at where like the. institutional power is like in media in. Academia and stuff like we have that. power we definitely influence the. culture and if you look at polling and. you look at like 30 years ago 40 years. ago how people felt about casual sex so. I agree that there's a moral question. and what's actually good for you and the. truth is there is a small number of. people like women tend to have more. restricted sociosexuality than men do. but there are some women what do you. mean by soci sexuality soci sexuality is. how um open you are to Casual.

relationships there's like an inventory. and they like look at your desire your. behavior your attitudes towards it and. Men typically are more open to it than. women are but you there is some like you. know there's like 10% or 5% of women who. still and I don't think there's anything. wrong with those women going out and. doing that but I do think we need to put. more of an emphasis on like okay the. moral question whether you're a if. you do this that's separate from is this. good for you is this going to make you. feel good is this what you really want. separate I think it's separate why would. would it be separate you know if if. morality is concerned with what is right.

and what is wrong and we are rational. beings that uh recognize that some. things are better than other things then. then wouldn't it stand to reason that if. you do more good things and fewer bad. things if you if you pursue more virtue. and less Vice that you would be happier. and flourish may but are you is eating a. dut immoral well it depends if you've. had like five Donuts already you know. then probably like to me I don't think. like eating fast food is immoral it may. not be good for you but it's not immoral. and so and there isn't like this stigma. associated with it where it's like oh.

nobody like you know no sex is obviously. I think even more fundamental to human. nature than Donuts are and I like donuts. plenty but you know sex is very very. important to human nature true in part. because the action is what propagates. the species or in our sterile age does. not propagate the species but you know. you point you're you're a trained lawyer. pass the bar exam and you have spoken. publicly about how because you you know. you've made other career choices you. really can't work in the law a firm. would fire you so it would seem to me. putting aside the Justice or Injustice.

of that fact that there is still a major. stigma Associated firms would actually. hire me over you probably still no but. my point is that that some of the things. you say are so controversial that with. how with how I think I saw a little bit. clip of your last thing where you said. like Yale would like deny you even went. there I think they want to burn my. Diplomat that's my point is very Lial is. that Society is Shifting and we're. becoming more okay with things like sex. work but we're still not there 100% but. we still are very quick to cancel. misogyny and I'm not AG I wouldn't say.

Yale is representative of the broader. Society though you know it's a kind of I. love my own I mean if we're talking. about law firms if we're talking about. good like big time law firms like they. would have a harder time like wait can. may can just a clarifying question so. you're you're thinking broadly speaking. people will find a conservative. political pundit more objectionable than. a in Academia totally age in. Academia in higher UC. and like Corporate America yeah I think.

you're probably right about that tells. you tells you a lot about the societ you. can argue that but to say like like. there are firms out there that would. still take me over you but in in reality. look I mean it's a funny line and there. is a lot of Truth to that but you know a. a lot of these videos that go viral from. this show in fact and in the broader. like red pill manosphere stuff it's uh. women who are being shamed for for their. uh sexual behaviors putting the jus or. Injustice of that aside for a second. those videos get a lot of views those.

those attitudes are still very very. prevalent and I think it's because no. amount of feminist indoctrination is. going to alter basic aspects of human. nature and I think men broadly don't. want the their wives to be promiscuous. and look everybody has a past and I. think there's all sorts of redemption. and repentance and I think that can all. be great but but no one you know as L. Ros Fuko said hypocrisy is the tribute. Vice pays to Virtue no no one I think. really deeply desires that and and you. know the men who watch the show are.

going to be going to selection bias. there because they're going to be more. likely to not desire that they're. probably going to spend more time on the. internet there's all these very popular. but like this idea that men want a body. count of zero is not really replicated I. think in normal society that like you. you may not they may not like you. obviously there's a spectrum here like. your girl doing porn is different than. having three bodies right like different. there's going to be different levels of. men who are okay with one and not the. other but we do have a culture War for a. reason because there is enough people on. this side who are like actually there's. nothing wrong with having casual sex.

actually there's nothing whatever about. doing only fans and we I think tradcons. can be super happy living a tradcon life. but you guys are the ones telling us we. can't be happy and there's nobody out. here on our side that no no look we. we're observing certain facts of society. and mentioning them and uh but but also. we're recognizing that the liberal view. of society that we're all just. individuals and you know don't yuck my. young man that that doesn't really work. because because we live in society so. you know I I keep bringing up the trans. thing because it's just the clearest. example of all these different topics.

we're talking about the the protrans. argument was just let me dress up in a. skirt how does it bother you I'm doing. it in the privacy of my own home stop. you know yucking my yum okay fine okay. well if I'm going to wear a skirt you're. going to call me Shelly all right Steve. like I'll call you Shelly fine whatever. okay and if you're going to call me. shell and I'm going to wear a skirt then. I'm going to go use the women's bathroom. now hold on Steve sorry shell like you. can't my daughter goes into the women's. bathroom well I'm a woman and I say I'm.

a woman you have no damn right to say. that I'm not a woman well no I I do have. a right to say you're not a woman I do. have a right to suggest that you not. behave like a weirdo in public and I do. have a right to say you get out of my. daughter's bathroom because I've got. faculties of reason and I live in. society and and to quote John Stewart. Mill who's one of the most important. liberal thinkers of all time in his. essay on Liberty he points out you know. we want a lot of protections for privacy. but you're there there are not really. any totally private vices you know if a. guy is just a big drunk and he just.

drinks all the time maybe does in his. own home and it doesn't bother you but. then maybe he neglects his family and. his family can't eat and then maybe he. doesn't go to his job and maybe he. doesn't pay his taxes and maybe he. doesn't contribute to the community that. he lives in and maybe we have a right in. the political Community to put some. limits on individual autonomy because. it's degrading to individuals and you. get all the individuals together that's. your Society yeah I don't know I just. kind of want to push back on the idea. that like basically being trans is the. same as being a drunkard and I think the.

reason why is because um they saying. they're the same they deviant and and uh. suffer defects of Will and intellect. okay I guess my question to you is when. does something deviant become harmful. because there's a lot of deviant. behaviors out there I don't think most. of them are harmful I don't think most. of them are bad but obviously you think. that there's something bad about being. trans and being drunk enough to like do. the analogy so my question is when does. deviants become harmful do you believe. this should be enforced through law or. are you just talking social like do you. think like we should put in because.

there's a lot of rights that we hold up. even when they're are NE like free. speech people say mean words but we. still are like the right is so important. guns you know they sometimes we have. limits on spe of course I think I agreed. with everything you said there should be. limits the question is where should. those limits be and how should they be. enforced and that's my question we. should probably arrive at them through. prudence and very carefully I think I. don't think there's like a write five. bullet points on an app can answer to. this as some ideologues do I think we. have Prudence for a reason and it's the. sorry my dear consumate political virtue. uh but uh also when you say should it be.

enforced through social norms or through. the law I'm not sure there's a to Total. firm distinction here it's very. fashionable of the Libertarians to say. politics is totally Downstream of. culture yeah sure that's true in as far. as it's true but also the law is a tutor. and so the law creates certain. incentives and disincentives if you're. going to punish certain behaviors you're. actually going to get less of that. behavior and if you encourage certain. Behavior you're going to get more of. that behavior so it com comes back to. the trans I mean there's there's still a. big difference like I actually like what. you guys do I watch it cuz I like to.

hear different opinions no I like to. listen to different opinions and stuff. but I have no problem with you getting. on and trying to advocate for like. getting rid of things like no fault. divorce now if you guys pass the law. like I think you should have the. complete right to do that convince. people but passing the law and is a very. different thing well you would have you. would have to pass a law if you're. talking about a law right you're talking. yeah but I think it's much different to. try to get people to not get divorced or. advocate for that position well look I. think I think every everybody unless. you're the most hardened radical. feminist Maniac you you would you don't.

like divorce right you're not saying we. want more divorce but I think people. should have the freedom right so you're. just you're merely talking about the. right and so I guess my question then is. put aside legal divorce for. cause what is gained by no fault divorce. what's the what's the good of that oh. there's a bunch of good when it comes to. no fault divorce um previously when we. had fault divorce people would literally. have to like lie or commit vices in. order to be able to get divorced so.

whether it was like why don't they just. not get divorced though if there's no. fault um the problem is if they decide. to like not get divorced usually that. leads to like higher rates of. unhappiness it leads to people having. like more tension within their marriage. it prevent well yeah there is does it I. don't know I'm not convinced of that. again because I think you know happiness. has declined for everybody especially. for women over the time that we've had. these yeah but we we can look at people. who um what is it reportedly stay in. marriages where they're unhappy and like. the long-term effects of that even like. Psych ologic Al healthwise um we can. look at abusive relationships. situationships where um the woman feels.

like she can't leave even in an era of. divorce that would be fault right that's. not no fault divorce that's like my. husband punch in the face problem the. problem with fault divorce right is that. you already instituting like a burden of. proof onto like these abuse victims um. that would basically prolong the process. of them getting away from their abusive. partner right now you you could separate. and you could move out you know the same. night so basically you're saying that. you're okay with advocating for system. where you know they're basically not. married in all the ways that matter um.

but just not legally I don't know what. matters I I well they're not living. together they're not being um intimate. together their children are in basically. separate homes because you're saying the. woman can leave but she I'm opposed to. divorce but I'm we're speaking. specifically now about no fault divorce. because we're probably not going to. agree on divorce broadly but we might at. least agree that no fault divorce is. very very bad because you're saying well. if one is not able to have a no fa. divorce then uh you know they might have. to stick with that spouse that they. don't like that much or the spouse got.

kind of fat and I don't like him anymore. whatever uh but first of all it's. definitely better for the kids in as. much as the studies are reliable on this. kids who grow up in a home of a mother. and a father bound together in marriage. do better across every single uh. Criterion but but furthermore uh you're. you're neglecting the the negative. aspects of divorce I mean when people do. get divorced and then if they have kids. you know and God forbid they get. divorced then if you introduce a a. stepfather into that relationship the. odds that those kids are are abused or.

sexually assaulted go through the roof. the odds uh that a u and actually at a. more basic level because we could rattle. off the statistics all day at the basic. level we recognize that the marriage is. the fundamental political unit the. Liberals say the individual is the. fundamental political unit but I think. that's bunk I think it's the family. because political means multiple people. you know just to go on the data really. quick I mean there staying in a. household with conflict is worse than. but they they'll have the conflict in. divorce I mean this.

is yeah it's better for like yes you're. right the but also when you when you. factor in education and socioeconomic. status a lot of that dissipates so. what's happening usually is that poor. people are more likely so it's that's. it's all jumbled up PO people are less. likely to get married in the first place. and more likely to have kids but the. being a child in a home with conflict. between the parents is worse than having. right but then why isn't the answer. resolve the conflict because people. can't we human beings you're the one who. talking about human nature nature we're. clearly not successful at staying with. one person forever we have been at a.

much higher rates in the recent past so. you know unless we're suggesting that no. one can progress that no one can improve. their behavior uh then I think we can. get better at that and I think part of. the reason why divorce rates spiked is. because the law encouraged divorce rates. to spike and because to give the red. pill guys their due because family. courts have been horribly unjust to men. and because we have a a liberal Idol in. our society of radical individualism. that says who cares what happens to my. SP when in recent history were we really. good as a human species on lifelong.

healthy bonds like we serial monogamy be. we're I don't but this thing you don't. know just because of someone staying. together like there's a lot of people. who had parents that stay together that. are all sorts of messed up because the. parents fought they there was alcoholism. in the there's all types of things just. people staying together isn't yeah isn't. a good metric for childhood wellbeing. well it's a good predictor of outcomes. but I totally Grant to you that uh yeah. there are bad marriages I just think. should if the law is then going to. intervene the way the law has intervened.

is by dissolving the marriages and. creating all sorts of incentives to get. divorced and to not get married in the. first place but if the law is going to. intervene because of all these problems. why wouldn't the law intervene to make. marriage uh more sustainable to. encourage marriage the law really isn't. intervening per se people are choosing. whether they want to apply this law to. their life or not so people are choosing. that they want to get divorced or. choosing if they want to work things out. the difference is that now you have a. choice on whether you think the person. you're with is actually somebody you can. continue having a sustainable. relationship with if the answer is no.

then to to quote Simone deir that famous. feminist if you give people a brand new. Choice uh they if they if you give. people a a preferable Choice given their. social circumstances they might just. take it and women far off this idea that. women are like to fight back on the red. pill that women are just incentivized to. divorce women far off far worse. financially after divorce they're way. more likely to seek up seek uh. government assistance being poverty they. less likely to repart so this idea that. women are just running to the divorce. court to get money is just not true well.

no they they are divorcing at much. higher rates that's undeniable and I'm. totally with you divorce is horrible for. women so when sometimes feminists make. the argument that I think perhaps we. were getting to a little earlier the. argument that you just contradicted. which is divorce is so good for women. It's a Wonderful choice they really need. to have this Choice it makes their lives. better no it doesn't basically all the. time it makes their lives much worse to. say nothing of the ways that it harms. their children soet. what it's basically saying is that if a. person is willing to take all these.

worst outcomes like economically um. socially whatever imagine how bad that. relationship must have been woman. decided like hey you know what instead. of like trying to continue this it is so. toxic and so unhealthy that this is a. better alternative or they or they have. been diluted by a lot of propaganda over. the years which is you may be you seem. very Sane I'm sure you and your your. wife have really great ways of. communicating and resolving your. conflict you know how crazy people are. like yeah like to say that that's going. to work for everybody and everybody.

should just stay in this when people are. not emotionally even mature enough look. I I certainly style myself Prince. Charming so I'm glad toar we all agree. but you're right maybe people engage in. more vicious and and uh harmful harmful. behaviors so I guess my question. is if we agree that certain cultural. practices can make people behave better. MH and certain cultural practices can. make people behave worse shouldn't we be. doing everything we can to make people.

behave better and that's what we did in. the classical political arrangement of. society right you know the basic point. of politics is do good and avoid evil uh. then under liberalism you you had a new. point of society the new point of. society was to just uh expand individual. autonomy maximally on the I think false. supposition that that would make people. happier and we've had a couple hundred. years now and we've seen how it it's. played out and it hasn't played out very. well at all so why don't we go back to. the one that worked for all of human. history so one do you think that's.

possible or going to happen and two. would you then be in favor because. education female education seems to be a. big predictor of one we're the only ones. whose marriage rates are not falling. they're going up and we're less likely. to get divorced so do you then would you. advise women instead of getting married. really Young and Living this traditional. lifestyle to maybe go get educated the. best predictor of women staying married. and flourishing and having lots of kids. and and being happy and not even trying. to get divorced it's not education. though education is some predictor of. that is religion yeah you're true but. you can't make people we're just.

becoming less religious as a society. this thing you guys have let's turn the. clock back let's turn the clock back I. don't want to turn any clocks back I. just want to turn our heads back to. reason reason in logic who is God yeah. exactly but the logic and the reason and. the age of information a lot of people. now have access it and they're going. actually this kind of seems like. and they can't you can't make. no I don't think that's why people have. become IR religious I don't think it's. cuz they've all gotten much better. educated and read a. lot Christopher Hitchens I agree with. you heard at Christopher H's video Once. you know undeniable that more and more. people are identifying as non-religious.

that this is just the trend that it's. going in and I don't know how much as. great as the daily wire is how much you. guys are going to be able to reverse. that so maybe we should look at how we. can move forward with the society we. have instead of trying to turn the clock. back in a way that it's not a clock it's. not a clock we're not we're not going. I'm not making a time machine I'm just. saying that there's truth and there's. falsehood and we have we are embracing a. lot of falsehood in society and that's. leading to a lot of ugliness and a lot. of uh depravity and if we want less of. all that stuff and we want more like. good true and beautiful things maybe we. should use our reason to recognize.

really basic things like God exists I'm. not telling you you've got to come to. traditional Latin Mass tomorrow you. could wait until Sunday but uh you know. it at the very least we should recognize. hey guys some things are better than. others right the minute you grant that. some things are better than others. ultimately you have to grant that there. is a maximal good a suum bonum who is. God right we should recognize hey guys. um effects follow causes and if you go. back on the list of causes far enough. there's going to be an uncaused cause.

who is God there's really great. arguments against Jasmine before I have. you go I would like to hear a little bit. more from far if you'd like to weigh in. I was just going to ask maybe I missed. it so what do you think the ideal form. of marriage is like the woman goes to. college and then she meets a guy in. college and then she Taps out of her. career I don't know that going to. college is really great for anybody. these days I'm I'm pro-education. obviously I mean and I'm I'm not even. one of these conservatives who says know. you should all just study engineering or. whatever you know I think that's bu I. think you should read old books and and. acculturate yourself uh but I don't.

think most colleges accomplish this. these days including the really fancy. colleges Harvard Yale Princeton I don't. know that maybe you can get an education. there I'm not totally convinced you can. and so yeah I get women should be. educated but you know frankly these days. you send your kids to a homeschool Co-op. they'll start learning Latin in the. third grade you send your kids on the. track to go to Yale or Harvard and. they're probably not going to know. anything by the time they graduate uh so. yeah I I would love my wife to be. educated my wife is extremely educated. and I would love my wife to be a wife. and a mother and I guess the the image.

that I think of for marriage is not as. you know the the modern way of talking. about it where you say this is my. partner it sounds like a gay accounting. firm you know this is oh this is my. total indistinguishable partner no I. want a wife man you know and I want a. mother for my children I want to be a. father and that involves different roles. and that involves complimentarity um. well that's what I'm asking so are you. saying that like maybe they'll get. educated outside of College reading. books or whatever and then after that. they should focus like at age 23 24.

getting married and then not pursuing a. career to focus on Family Life yeah I'm. not going to prescribe exactly at what. age people ought to get married they. certainly ought to get married younger I. wish I'd gotten married younger uh but. yeah I don't prescribe that they uh. focus on a career with precedent. generally speaking I think women will be. less happy if they are going to the. widget Factory to work for Mr McGill. cuty so that they can make money that I. will I will then receive from my wife to. pay some other woman to raise our. children I think that's an extremely.

inefficient and disordered way to have a. marriage and I don't think it makes. anybody particularly happy I guess it. confuses me coming from a tradcon. because you guys believe in the design. of a lot of things you believe in like. the design of sex and what's like the. most optimal use of sex why did God give. us sex yes and you would say like the. end of sex would be to parir bond and. reproduce so if women were not meant to. pursue careers why would God according. to your Christian perview you're. Christian right yeah like equip us with. so many r rational faculties like why. are women so good at like aerospace. engineering nanotech P good at aerospace.

engineering why women why are women. higher than you guys in every subject. yeah they're not totally represented in. these fields my question is if tradcons. use God as like the their perview for. you know what I mean use our faculties. as the. Met why is it that women are now outg. outg graduating men like basically two. to one but then you guys are colleges. are total nonsense now and they have a. bunch of fake majors and it's a scam. it's law fake major cuz this is now we. have have more female first year. Association yeah and law school is. largely escap to you've got a glut of. lawyers my question is why would God.

equip us with these things these. faculties if God did not want us as. women to pursue these faculties and. instead abandon a first step for. marriage and kids the premise of your. question is that raising children and. running a family in the domestic economy. is not a rational activity it's not that. it's a rational activity but why equip. us to be so good at stem and college. what could be more important than. raising I'm saying why give women the. ability to both have a child and still. be able to read like intellectual texts. or at aerospace engineer well that's a.

thing you can raise your kid to be an. aerospace engineer I gu an aerospace. engineer yourself women can if they like. they generally don't do that no I'm. asking so is that your position that God. equipped women to be as good at stem to. outg graduate men all to just Pur. homeschooling Fields metal recipients uh. Larry Summers got fired from Harvard for. for pointing this out but uh this is the. top prize in mathematics uh until about. 10 years ago no woman had ever won the. prize and now I think one woman has won. it and I'm not knocking there are plenty.

of women who are much more intelligent. than me the reason Larry Summers is. who's a as far as social scientists goes. is a very respected one and he's a big. lib but uh he pointed out that the. reason why men tend to dominate in the. the highest intellectual Fields uh is. because not because men are simply. smarter than women but because the bell. curve of intelligence for men is wider. than that of women so but for a society. isn't it isn't it like. societies that allow women to work even. us if we hadn't had women we brought in. like trillions of dollars to the economy. to take out half of the mines in the.

world in in the. world the top I agree but if you want a. flourishing wealthy Society you can't do. that by eliminating women from the. workforce I agree that we're wealthier. today than we were 50 years ago I'm not. sure that we're flourishing more than we. are I mean we are literally a dying. Society right we haven't had above. replacement births since 1971 would you. feel okay with immigration as a way to. that's that's why we have mass migration. but Mass migration causes sorts of. social problems which is why it's it's. deeply before we pivot I I do want to. pin down your position on this so yes. the bell curve is wider for men but on.

average the average women are smarter. than the average men obviously at the. ends of the curves there's that wouldn't. there's more unintelligent men and more. High intelligent the first thing you. said that wouldn't wouldn't imply the. second right if it's not imply that's. just the fact is the bell curve is um. wider for men like there's more. unintelligent and intelligent are you. talking about the greater male. variability hypothesis is that I'm. saying there's there's on average women. are more intelligent than men but if you. look at the most intelligent people. they're more likely to be men if you. look at the least intelligent people.

they're less likely to be men so I'm. asking you from your Christian purview. because if you're a nihilist you're. atheist you could just be like oh that's. randomized who cares it doesn't. necessarily mean it's best for society. if you're a nihilist you can't say. anything at all you know because nothing. means anything well that was my point if. you're an niist you could just say those. curves should not be indication of how. we should live Society but as a. Christian if you think sex is most. optimized for certain purposes you would. probably think intelligence is best. optimized for certain purposes so why. would God equip the average woman to be. smarter than men do you think it's just. for homeschooling their children again. the claim that you made at first which. is that men and women have uh bell.

curves the men's bell curve being wider. than the woman's would not imply that. the average woman is smarter than the. average man it would line them up ex the. C itself implies or actually indicates. that on average exes no no if you. actually look at the curves at the top. it's women the women's Curve is taller. than the men's curve the the but the the. IQ of the curve would be on on the. x-axis right that's where you get the. extremes so I think so are you disputing. that on average women are more. intelligent than.

men as would Larry Summers as with the. people who have studied this but again I. think it's secondary to the point that. your your point is the more interesting. point why would God equip us why would. Goden school and in stem if women on. average were doing really really poorly. in stem and all these like if men were. the one outg outg graduating as two to. one then I can understand from a. Christian purview saying like see God. doesn't want you to be good at school. because God wants you to focus on these. more domestic Pursuits but how can you. look at all this evidence and think that. we're you know what I mean we're so. specifically designed by God and then. deny that I think I think you've bought.

the the big lie of feminism that goes. back to Mary wol stonecraft which is. that men are endowed with greater virtue. than women and I think it's just bunk. you're no saying the opposite she no. you're saying what you're saying is that. uh the the most important things to do. the most impressive things to do the. just the greatest stuff to do is to do. what most men do which is go out and. work some no I didn't even I didn't even. like moralize I didn't even say that. stem and Aerospace and all these. industries that women are good at are. even morally good I was just saying they. happen to be good at these things but.

from a Christian purview you're the one. who would ascribe morality to that. you're saying it's it's better to do. that I think because you're saying from. a Christian purview because you think. from a Christian purview what you're. good at is what you should do so if. women are better at childbearing they. should do that if sex is best used in. the specific uh use then people should. do that in in that uh narrow reading. then I think it's pretty clear most. women are better at raising children. than building rocket ships so I think. probably most women would prefer that. but e even more broadly I think you're. exalting male professions in a foolish.

way I I think that you're you're I'm not. even hyping them up I'm just asking you. from your theist perview why would God. make women so good at stem and college. and all these Pursuits if God just. wanted us to tap out as soon as we met a. man Fus I'm look women do fine on. certain tests but uh we're doing great. you're doing great a lot of tests sure I. better than you well perhaps I don't. know no I mean the fure I defer to your. uh knowledge of your future of Academia. is unequivocally female do you deny that. I agree that the future of Academia is.

Bleak so if if if you think that implies. that women will dominate Academia then. you know you said it not me but uh I. don't I don't think that the future of. anything is female I think the the. future of the human race will be the. complimentarity of the Sexes and. marriages and children or there will be. no future of the human race this is. something I also wanted to point out to. earlier you're saying that like oh. people are having less children you know. that's a bad thing but I don't know if. that's necessarily a bad and the reason. why at least from what we see when we. compare better developed countries to. less developed countries is that yeah.

people are choosing to have fewer. children but they're choosing to invest. more in those fewer children so back in. agricultural times yeah people had to. have a lot of children because they had. to have those children work work in the. farm basically take over chores take. over a bunch of stuff so they would have. seven or eight children a lot of times. malnourished a lot of them died versus. now where it's like okay yeah they might. have one or two children but those. children are wellfed they're getting. well educated psychatric drugs in the. country well do you think that okay I. guess here's the other problem earlier. on we were talking about like hey you.

know what things are getting better. measured now than before um that's why. the whole thing about like oh people are. less happy now is not necessarily true. do you think like let's say um middle of. nowhere country in Africa or something. where they're malnourished um have a. family of seven do you think those. people are happier because they can't. report it or they're living technically. more of a traditional lifestyle than. like somebody in a Nordic country or. European country yeah I think the word. traditional is doing a lot of work there. uh I agree that um you know subsaharan. Africa and Oklahoma are different but uh.

I I don't think it's a totally fair. comparison and I agree it's better to be. nourished than to be malnourished I. agree with that as well but I I don't. think that one necessarily needs two uh. lawyer incomes and a Tesla and a big. screen TV and five iPhones to to uh be. able to thrive and flourish I think. we've we've become far too materialistic. and we we now know the price of. everything and the value of nothing so. we've got more money than ever but we're. all miserable when you cited the data on. the two parent houses sorry um but.

socioeconomic status and education. especially maternal education are big. predictors of childhood outcome so how. come the data on two two parent. households we should follow that but not. the one on no I'm I'm fine with women. being smart I like when women are smart. and well educated you know because. they're because they're raising my. children you know well one is raising my. children I'm not if I were living in. Africa maybe out of five where you. deviate from the red pill true but you. know it is it is said that The Hand That. Rocks the cradle is the hand that rules. the world so when a man chooses a woman. to be his wife and to raise his family.

he is uh entrusting her with his life. you know and and and so I don't think he. wants her to be a dummy or to be vicious. or to be anything like that he would. have no incentive to do so but it's. better to have fewer kids that you can. it seems like provide more for and make. sure than to have 10 kids and none of. those kids end up being flourishing I. think it's good to be open to life you. know I think that one of the big. problems in our society is that we're we. we've embraced sterility so we're. sterile intellectually artistically.

philosophically and literally we don't. have any kids and we exalt as some kind. of supposed political right sterile. forms of sex so I wouldn't recommend. that at all and I think when you get. married you're to my earlier Point. you're giving yourself wholly over to. another person and so you shouldn't. withhold anything you know you should be. totally open to life for the for the. unity of the spous that practical in in. modern society I think idealistic View I. think I can tell you from experience. well you're very toally pral you're very. successful you're not struggling to feed. your kids no I'm not I haven't been.

totally canceled yet that's true but you. I know people who who make less money. than I do a lot less money and they've. got a million kids and Pi you go ahead. and I will shift gears a little bit. after you go okay I just have some. points of clarification quickly so if. you believe that people should be like. open to life do you believe basically. should we have like um Universal child. daycare do you believe that we should I. think we should have mothers and fathers. okay um do you not see if you're talking. about how women should be more. traditional or stay at home more but you. agree that our current economic.

circumstances that necessarily allow for. that household it seems to me like one. potential solution to this would be like. hey you know what um better paternal and. maternity leave so then that way like. the household doesn't suffer the income. but the woman can go l i support 18. years of maternity leave I think I. forget about 18 months I think it should. be 18 years do you believe women should. be paid for this for staying in the. household you know in principle I'm not. opposed to it the problem is it would. create so many bad incentives and would. be so inefficiently managed by the. central government years you 18 years. would be tough but but you know in at to.

your point in principle look there's one. country in the west that has managed to. turn around the birth rate problem and. they haven't solved it yet but they've. ticked it up a little bit in the. opposite direction and that's Hungary. and the way they did it was they said. that once you have four kids you don't. have to pay income tax anymore and. that's a great way to encourage people. to have kids so you know I'm I disagree. with that yeah you know like would would. I suggest that we just start sending. checks for each baby that you pop out uh. that's probably an overly simplistic way. to do it but should the government which. is really an expression of the people in. self-government should should we uh.

encourage and support having families. rather than passing laws that discourage. families 100% yeah I I'm for pro family. poliy I think we all are did you have. more no that I was just trying to see if. you agreed with that or not cuz I've met. a couple conservatives who are like oh. no we shouldn't pass laws like that so. yeah well the Libertarians get feisty of. anytime you say that we should do. anything in politics but uh no I'm I'm. fine if as long as it's prudent the the. point that you raised at first though. would would be terribly wrong which. would be to say all right now we've got.

guaranteed daycare that would only make. the problem worse right if we want. families to be stronger and we want. families to be incentivized to have more. children and to raise their own children. sorry I do have one more thing I guess. what I don't understand is that earlier. you were talking about the community the. community is important like Liberals are. like too individualized but to me it. seems like programs like Universal. daycare or such of the matter um do. Foster a sense of Community I don't. think a child was meant to be raised by. just one single person like not even. just a mom be raised there's least two.

people involved I think more I we live a. whole society that you know should take. care of the children yeah yeah so your. Insight is or your inclination is Right. which is you know it takes a village. much as I dislike Hillary Clinton that. phrase itself is not objectionable but. it takes a village it doesn't I I don't. think it takes a contrived product of. some technocracy that creates the you. know you know sterile and clinical. preschool program daycare program that's. not that's not a real organic Community.

that's that's not a community where. people are accountable to one another. where people have natural bonds that. begin with the family and extend to the. uh extended family and then to the. neighborhood and to Mrs melotti down the. street how would you make because. religion has done a really good job at. this creating these fostering. communities but the bottom line is. people just don't believe in it there's. a question of it's beneficial and if. it's true how are you how what's your. plan to convince more people that it's. true and that they should follow because. everything is pointing the opposite way. we're going the opposite way beneficial. means it's good and true means is true. and I some people think these are. divorced I don't think they're divorced.

well I I think I hold to an oldfashioned. view that there are the three. transcendentals which is goodness truth. and beauty and that they uh involve one. another so something that is good is. likely to be true and something that is. false is likely to be harmful okay so if. let's say if transgenderism was shown to. be beneficial I know you don't believe. that would it then be true I I I'm. confident that it won't be shown to be. Ben but if it was would you then is that. really you know you're you're asking me. if um you know if 2 plus 2 equal 5 would.

that change my view of mathematics I. suppose it would but you know the reason. that I'm so confident when every time. some protrans activist comes out and. says there is a new study that shows the. brain scans of Bruce Jenner mean that. he's really you know a lady or whatever. and then it's it never turns out to be. you doing the whole perception is real. like if I if it was beneficial to me to. Believe In Unicorns does that make. unicorns real I don't think it I I guess. our disagreement would go back one step. even further I don't think it's. beneficial to believe in fantasies I. think that so that's why people don't. like.

religion I I I agree that you know. atheists and liberals have denigrated. religion for centuries now but I I don't. think it's a fantasy I don't think that. it's just a comforting thought neither. do transgender like my point is right. but they're wrong and I'm right I guess. exact what one of us is going to be. right what makes you believe that like. that Catholic Doctrine is true well I. believe to quote the first Vatican. Council that the existence of of God I'm. not saying all the other stuff but the. existence of God can be known with. certainty by natural human reason from.

the created world yeah I I'm not I'm not. debating about the existence of God I'm. saying specifically Catholic doctrine. that it goes beyond so if we all if we. all agree that God exists and can be. known through reason and maybe we're. making a leap there but you seem at. least to Grant it but at least you grant. it uh then the question is okay well who. is God and here is where Revelation gets. involved and uh but re is revelation not. just why not the Viking God wait is. revelation not just like the word of. somebody else essentially claiming to. like have these truths revealed by God. it's the word of a great many people. played out throughout history so you.

know for instance the re it was very. recently Christmas and so the the. revelation of our Lord and Savior Jesus. Christ is in the Incarnation and then he. lives for 33 years and then suffers a. passion is crucified and is resurrected. on the third day at least that's how the. story goes right well why would I. believe that story what what reason do I. have to that's a that's a crazy story. isn't it people don't just rise from the. dead well part of the reason I might. believe believe it is because the gospel. accounts were all written within living. memory a part of the reason I might. believe this is because 11 men went to.

their deaths to defend what a fable to. defend 11 men just all suffered the same. defect of perception one of the reasons. I would believe it is it's attested to. in non-Christian history uh one of the. reasons I might believe this is that. there were 500 witnesses to the. resurrection so and and then another. reason I might witness this we get to. your point of the relation between good. goodness and Truth is that that religion. spread to the entire world and we. haven't even gotten into the other. historical coincidences of this and led. to a civilization that was.

extraordinarily powerful flourishing I. mean nothing like it has ever existed on. the face of the Earth never would again. if it were to go away this would all. seem to point to at least some little. kernel of Truth in that I just okay I. guess final thing and then I will move. on um final thoughts on that to me it. doesn't necessarily follow that just. because like a lot of people believe. something it means that there's a. colonel of truth to it right I feel like. yeah not necessarily yeah it seems to me. that people the same arguments that you. used could be used when it comes to like.

trying to justify Islam for example um. that a lot of people have gone and fight. and ISL didn't spread peacefully as. Christianity yeah fastest growing. religion yeah it's still the fastest. growing religion right now um but the. point that I'm trying to get across is. that ultimately it seems like your. belief in the Catholic faith and. Doctrine goes back to like hey a lot of. other people seem to believe this so. then that leads to Perhaps Perhaps I. misspoke quick response um. quick version of it perhaps I misspoke. uh my faith in the in the Catholic.

religion comes down to the existence of. God being knowable through reason and. the identification of God with the logos. this would be something different in. than say in Islam where Allah is totally. Transcendent and as iban haam the. medieval Islamic writer said if God so. will that he could make people worship. idols uh so mine identifies god with. reason so it's not just mere hearsay. then there is a little bit of hearsay. because all these people saw it and. believed it and spread it throughout all. of the world and the religion was. extraordinarily successful and in that. spread one. final difference I suppose is that with.

maybe two exceptions Christianity spread. peacefully everywhere that it spread the. two the two exceptions would be. Charlemagne and I guess the Spanish. Inquisition with Islam Islam spread. violently everywhere that it spread and. so it I'm not even knocking the Muslims. I'm just pointing out one was Reliant. largely on reason and so it would seem. to me that the faith is reasonable okay. shifting gears here a little bit kind of. back to feminism are women oppressed are. men oppressed who is more oppressed and.

I think let's start with Michael on this. and then we'll switch over to you guys. go ahead yes women are oppressed uh men. are quite oppressed um but what. oppresses US is not uh you know like the. patriarchy or whatever what what. oppresses US is sin and Vice that's what. actually does it you you true freedom is. not as the feminists and the liberals. who proceeded them would believe the. ability to do whatever we wish you know. the ability the right to do wrong I. don't think there's any right to do. wrong I that's why the word is called a.

right I think that uh Liberty is the U. right to do what we ought to do and so I. think that uh the truth will set you. free and I think that falsehood will. enslave you and I think that um the the. real oppression we see today is is a. result of following our appetites our. lower will disconnected from our. rational will so you know I go out and. eat a lot of donuts or I shoot up a. bunch of heroin or something and I'm or. I or I am addicted to porn or I'm. sleeping around with all these women or.

I'm even forget about porn I'm just. indulging my pride on social media and. I'm just scroll Doom scrolling all day. and not doing any of my work uh th those. are oppressions because you can't escape. them even when your rational will says. uh I've had enough drugs I've eaten. enough Donuts I've looked at enough porn. your appetite comes back in and says Ah. give me more right and so you you you. lose your freedom to quote St Paul the. things that I want to do I don't doing. the things that I want to do I do so we. are oppressed by patriarchy because. didn't you Define patriarchy as like. male sexual appetite and things like. hookup no no I I I think.

patriarchy truly is just um you know the. the reflection and the symbol of. marriage of the relation between Christ. and his church oh because previously you. defined it as things like hookup culture. and no no I I said that uh we live in a. patriarchy in as much as women are not. dominant over men right and so I agree. that women are still bearing the brunt. of a lot of terrible things but it's a. perverted patriarchy were my exact words. and so the true one would be the notion. that man as the head of woman as Christ. as the head of his church which makes a. lot of liberal streak these days but uh.

if the way that um this perverse. patriarchy would be practiced today is. that uh man is not like the like Christ. to his church man is like a little demon. in the Garden of Eden tempting Eve so. you define current oppression as. basically modernity like things like you. said social media Pride gluttony lust no. I think I think real oppression really. can only come from sin I think that's. that I think then the wages of that are. death and so you know the law can come. in and act in a way that is contrary to. Justice and that does happen a lot but.

that doesn't really matter you know you. can you can be free in a prison cell the. the problem for us that the far greater. threat to our Liberty is is the the lack. of ability to control ourselves and to. live virtuous flourishing lives and you. know you can't just blame some guy on. Tik Tok for that you can't just blame a. law for that so for oh did you want to. respond yeah I guess I had a question um. I do want to ask if you think think. religion is really good at suppressing. that like proclivity for vice and you. would probably label something you would. probably label something like.

pornography consumption as unequivocally. a vice and something that oppresses us. then why is it that in states that have. the most Evangelical Christians we see. the highest subscriptions to things like. Playboy only fans PornHub they still. have Playboy wholesome I'm just I'm just. painting more of a historical. progression it went from like obviously. Penthouse to Playboy to Hustler to now. then to the strip clubs pornography. restaurants things like that why is why. is is that most rampant in red States. specifically religious red States yeah I. don't know I mean I can't speak. specifically to Evangelical. protestantism because I'm not totally um.

you know I'm not one and I'm I'm just. not as familiar with it I do know that. in some of the Protestant denominations. they get a little bit more Loosey Goosey. on the sex stuff obviously the lambath. uh statement uh permitted U. contraception and a little bit weirder. sex stuff for some Protestants so I I. remain a mackerel snapping papist and I. kind of believe the oldfashioned way. that uh to quote the great philosopher. normc Donald sex is a filthy shameful. thing that should only be for the. purpose of procreation within marriage. um and uh so I don't know you know if.

you say well in in Utah or something. they're looking at porn more and. therefore the Mormons are you know. Hypocrites okay maybe they're Hypocrites. first of all Utah just B effectively. banned porn because they they uh forced. porn companies to have an an age and. then PornHub very tellingly said okay. we're not going to do business there. anymore because we rely on kids for our. business I guess my point is it doesn't. seem like religion is a comp telling. antidote against the vices that you deem. to be oppressive if in these states that. have the highest populations of. religious people you're type of religion.

Christian why is it that they're. indulging in these vices more. disproportionately than liberals well. again you know I love my Protestant. friends but some of them take a looser. view of sexual morality than the. Catholics do the Catholics still have a. very rigid view so I think you're making. a little bit of an apples and oranges. comparison yeah and but but. furthermore to quote L Ro Fuko again. hypocrisy is the tribute Vice Pace to. virtue and and religion is a public. thing so uh we want to pray we can pray. individually we can avoid looking at. porn individually we can do whatever.

individually but we're social creatures. and so if we live in a community that is. more likely to uh put us in the near. occasion of sin we're more likely to. fall into that you know today porn is. everywhere right you can't you can't. drive down the street you certainly. can't open social media without that and. if there's more Temptation everywhere. you're more likely to fall into it even. if you know it's wrong and so now we. point to those people we say Well. they're Hypocrites no they're not. hypocrites they're human beings who have. standard you think they're victims to. like just the rampant porn industry yeah. I think I think the porn industry. certainly victimizes people do you think.

porn worsened it more than prior like do. you kind of blame the porn industry yeah. I think porn industry is awful and. should be wied over face can we talk. about what consequences you're seeing. since the proliferation of porn that. makes Society so much worse like yeah. totally yeah well you see uh I mean you. know again to go back to all those. studies you see a big spike in sexual. aggression you see a big spike in wa. wait. is early 2000 crime is way down well. okay just. ience and abortion is way down abortion. no from the from the early 2000s yeah.

abortion is unfortunately slightly up. even after the the dobs decision though. if you go into the state-by-state data. babies still have been saved and it's. somewhat complicated but since porn. became widely available where what. what's worse because you're so what. you're saying is because there's porn. now people are getting married less. they're having fewer babies they're get. pregnant L I'm just saying if porn just. made society just so catastrophic what. are the outcomes you're seeing because. it's not violence I think you would say. porn is bad as an end in itself right. yeah it's intrinsically evil but but.

also if you're interested in some you. know studies or something and again I. don't even really buy studies but uh I. think it was 2010 out of the University. of Arkansas a survey of the most popular. porn not all porn but the most popular. porn videos showed 88% uh depicted. sexual aggression verbal or physical uh. there was a study that came out about 10. years ago out of Denmark that showed. that uh regular porn use increased. misogynistic attitudes which I totally. agree uh there was another study that. came out of I think it was Indiana uh a.

few years ago which showed that regular. porn consumption was correlated with uh. sexual aggressiveness in both men and. women which I don't think is a very good. thing and then there was another study I. forget which state it came out of in. like 2015 or 2019 which showed that uh. porn use and uh sexual interactions. online for for women were a reliable. predictor of in real life sexual. violence committed against them so again. I grant you that you know there's your. studies got my stud but there if in as.

much as you do believe the social. scientific data there is a lot of. evidence that porn has had disastrous. consequ you had something I think a. little bit before this go ahead yeah. basically um earlier when you were. saying like oh no um people are doing. porn or watching pornographic confli uh. content more often because they're. surrounded by it they can't help it um. so even if it comes to a virtuous person. if there surrounded they're still going. to fall pre to it but to me that doesn't. necessarily track and I don't want to be. offensive here but the Catholic Church.

um especially priests who are supposed. to be surrounded by those who are holy. um tend to have like some of the highest. rates of like child abuse um no they. don't I mean there's obviously a child. sex abuse crisis it was 20 years ago. especially in the Catholic church and. even recently if we looked at like the. past like 10 years like not but if. enough has been done obviously there's. uh a lot of media tension on that and. it's a terrible problem but if you. compare rates of uh child sexual sexual. abuse within the Catholic Church to any. other religious community among. Christians it it's flat it's it's.

exactly the same as the Protestants. among certain Orthodox Jews it's. actually significantly lower and then my. my favorite statistic here though it's. very dark is that the the rates of. sexual abuse from the Catholic Church uh. against children is about half the rate. as public school teachers against. children so you know it's it's all bad. but it's not particularly from what I've. seen it hasn't at least from I've seen. that's not necessarily true what I've. seen is that it's true I can I can. promise you okay we'll we'll fact check. later or right now actually we could um.

but one of the specific reasons and I'll. Grant you this or Grant this to the. Catholic church at least is that the. reason why the Catholic church has. higher rates of sexual abuse compared to. Protestants it's not because Protestants. are necessarily doing it less but it's. because the Catholic Church keeps yeah. investigates it more but even they do. investigate it a lot I just yeah I think. the it depends on which um Protestant. group you're comparing it to but uh and. and some protest. I do want to go to the question for this. side far pixie and Jasmine are women. oppressed are men oppressed who is more.

oppressed starting with Farah and then. we'll come this way kind of like. patriarchy I think oppressed is a hefty. word I prefer just the term marginalized. and I think women are marginalized more. than men okay well didn't we just say. that women are graduating college at a a. higher rate than men like they're more. women in college than men depend but. didn't we also say that the culture of. women move in lock step to male Desires. in terms of things like hookup cult and. just the culture at large didn't you. also admit that I get yeah know I'm I'm. I'm not saying women are in a good spot. I'm just saying how is it that if women. are represent or the majority of the.

population and they're represented as. the majority in these apparently. desirable places such as universities. you couldn't say they're marginalized. because they're the majority so they're. not the margin um I think you could. still be othered even if you're a. majority if there's a louder minority. yes that's why I didn't use the term of. press That's why I use marginal do you. think men are louder than women 100%. they speak more words per minute I mean. that's just a fact that's cuz Shapiro. brings up the. true uh your answer pixie um men and. women are both oppressed they're both.

oppressed in different ways I do not. like playing oppression Olympics cuz I. think that both you can play I want play. they both have very very legitimate. reasons to feel oppressed so that's. where I stand uh Jasmine what about you. yeah I agree with that I think men and. women are oppressed but I think if. you're looking at who's more oppressed. in a society and you're looking at what. metric to use I think the male female. one is really terrible I think class and. privilege and stuff has a way bigger. effect on how oppressed you will be. rather than your gender um like if I was.

a guy I think maybe my life would be. maybe a little bit worse maybe a little. better if I was in a different family it. could be different it just depends on so. many factors but class I think is a big. is much bigger than men versus women. that's like the old school leftist view. where you focus on class over racial or. sexual identity you know what's weird. though is when you look at um rates of. like actually uh depression drug use you. would think that it would vary by class. I think of the average person on. prescription drugs is like a fair upper. middle class white lady with maybe one.

or two kids in the suburb somewhere but. it's not there's actually very little. difference among all classes we're all. just depressed and on. drugs um I don't know I'd be curious to. see um that exact data point because I. also know that it's harder for um people. like that's like in lower classes to be. covered properly by health insurance and. probably like get proper medication in. general well the lowest classes are are. in Medicaid it's the kind of that lower. middle that the opioid crisis isn't. affecting people at Yale and lawo it's. like there is a class the cocaine crisis.

is the co yeah the cocaine people are. still highly functioning Good attorneys. and whatever on on cocaine you can't. really do that as much on fenel but so. yeah I think class does affect um. especially the kind of drugs you get. addicted to and and all that well and. especially to your point on class like. the the fact that uh people in the lower. socioeconomic classes are much less. likely to get married and much more. likely to have kids out of wedlock to to. me this is one of the most bringing it. all the way back this is one of the most. evil aspects of feminism is that a lot.

of the supposed feminists don't really. practice what they preach in fact I. think a lot of elite liberals don't. really practice what they preach because. they're more likely to get married and. they're more likely to go to some school. and obvious they have less sex as well. less casual sex less casual sex and they. do so but but the way they talk is they. say no man we need total Liberation we. need a revolution man whatever you know. and then fortunately the it's the lower. socioeconomic classes who buy that. garbage and they ruin their lives I. agree with you there I think we need to. do a better job that of explaining to.

people like like for me I do sex work I. don't like tell other I don't advocate. for everybody to do that why not because. I think you have to have a specific type. of temperament for it you have to be. willing to understand the consequences. for it like me it really I thought about. my values I thought about who I was and. it aligned with that if you're like 18. and you don't know what you're doing I. don't know if it's a good option for you. to jump into I don't even think it's a. good option for you to jump into. marriage either you have to think about. who you are and who your vales be. prepared to be married I thought you. were going to say you didn't think it. was a good idea for me to jump into sex. work would have been very offensive I.

think you'd be fine I think You' make a. lot of. money coup page a couple's page What if. Michael nles started like a cigar review. only fans I like I was thinking I'd. recite Italian poetry on only did you. speak Latin Shir a little bit all right. calm down W okay pump the brakes a. little bit there do you think you would. come to reget doing the not me but I. think some people would you don't think. there's a chance you'll come to regret. it no why why would I regret it if say.

you wanted to get married and have kids. and you found it harder to I don't think. so because I think that I typically like. M like for instance I always tell this. story like before I didn't have any. social media before I started only fans. and I didn't have and like one guy I was. on a date with was like oh I love that. because you're not showing off your I. just ghosted him like I just I don't. like men like that I like men that are. have similar values to me where they. don't correlate SE modesty with with. morality and that they don't really care. do you think that guys who like look at. a lot of porn and are very Pro porn and.

do you think they tend to make better or. worse husbands we know that the ones. that actually have issues with porn the. biggest predictor of that is moral in. congruent so Catholics should not watch. porn it seems to have really negative. impacts on your marriages and lives but. if you're not Catholic and you don't. have negative attitudes towards porn you. are way less likely to have issues with. it do you think that if you watch porn a. lot you're really into it you're more or. less likely to um step out on your. marriage I don't know if there's any. data on that well you said a lot so they. add in kind of. like 90% of men watch porn I don't know.

if men who watch porn are more likely to. cheat I haven't seen anything to. indicate that nor would that even be my. the social scientific data that I have. seen would suggest that uh regular porn. use is associated with all sorts of. vices and pathologies and including. Infidel marital infidelity and so that. would be one thing you wouldn't want you. wouldn't want your husband sleeping. around with other women I don't mind if. he watches porn and I think a lot of. women do but if if what I'm saying is if. watching porn made him less virtuous and.

you know even just the fact that you're. trying to cook for the kids right and. you're trying to I don't know you're. trying to do something and he's just in. the bedroom somewhere selfishly doing. some that's kind of shameful and you. don't brag about it even if you're a I. watch porn what am I I'm supposed to. tell him you don't do it and I'll do it. yeah well no you you neither of you. should do it neither of you should do it. that CLI nether you should do it but but. you should not let your own personal um. eccentricities or call it vices uh stop. you from recognizing them as vices per.

se it's it's it's not hypocrisy to have. a standard and fail it and I I fear that. because we uh today have suggested that. it is a lot of people recognize their. problems with what they're doing you you. know maybe you like porn a lot but there. are a lot of people who worked in the. porn industry who have had terrible. outcomes who they believe the industry. they say was just awful and abusive and. you know I'm with the sex negative. feminists on this I think it's really. degrading to women and um you know.

another stat 97% of the recipients of of. violence and aggression in pornography. are women it's usually not the men maybe. in some cases that's only fans you. should be Pro only fans then because. it's it eliminates a lot of that yeah I. mean democratizing uh the pornography. industry I don't know you know I don't. know that that would shrink it which. would be my goal but but even shrink the. abuse which it has it's the most ethical. form it's the most ethical form. I don't know ethical porn to me is sort. of like a vegan lion you know well you. just said like you have to hold yourself. to a standard you're you're deciding.

that standard based on your values and. your religion but I'm coming to my. values through reason I guess is what. I'm saying I think that people have a. conscience I think that uh broadly. speaking our our faculties of Reason can. tell us that you know we all agree. murder is bad right we all and we just. think it's objectively wrong it's not. just wrong because we kind of feel it or. we've decided it in some social science. committee we it's just objectively wrong. because there's a Transcendent moral. order that's objective and we can reason. about it so I think we can all um come. to certain conclusions then why haven't.

we why for most history well no murder. we pretty much like all and that's an. interesting thing even abortion like. social attitude has shifted much because. murder people are still like this is. wrong but things like casual sex por and. sex work which we're a reason is. obviously failing maybe we malfunctioned. evolutionarily in 2024 yeah no we're. falling for sure we have all sorts of. people still Mur why is that reason. whatever reason you're having why is. that not um why is that not spreading. why is that not persuasive enough to. convince people because we're much less. reasonable today than we've been in the. past and because in fact a lot of people.

deny objective truth I mean it would. seem you've all accepted my premises. that I've just articulated that there is. objective truth in a Transcendent moral. order and so you know you're you're the. creme de la crem I guess but a lot of. people if you went onto the street and. you said is there such a thing as. objective truth they would say no. there's no such thing as objective there. AR but there's good Arguments for that. there's good arguments you can even. argue that you subjective came to the. objective truth of of Catholicism you. use your subjective opinions to follow. that no no no an opinion is a statement.

of fact from one's perspective but it's. an statement of objective fact it's not. like a preference it's not why are you. not Muslim you just didn't find it as. compelling you didn't personally find it. as compelling right my my you applying. my reason to facts I found one to be. more reasonable than the. other you could find a very uh. reasonable Muslim who could say across. and maybe in the future debate you here. and they would have to to to give the. Muslim Ben Shapiro used his reason to go. to that man is not a Muslim that's. whatever but he chose he thinks Judaism. is the truth so you're all using you're.

still it's still a subjective listen. Ben's he's a very smart guy but he gets. a few things wrong yeah so sure people. people disagree and and they uh you know. um come to wrong. conclusions plenty of times sure but uh. you know without U without believing. that our reason is somewhat uh reliable. then we can't even really communicate. unate right I mean there's just no. objective reality that we could would. even make this intelligible quick quick. thing pixie and we are going to shift. gears go ahead I was going to shift. gears right now I was going to say um or.

do you want to what what topic it's. biology basically or I'll just say gend. Stu let's let's hit one topic but we. will come back to that how's that sound. um so I think when it comes to uh. feminism uh some something that a lot of. feminists fight for is abortion rights. for women uh so I think I'd like to. touch on that for a little bit so a good. jumping off point for each of you what. is each of your basic stance on abortion. we'll have you guys go first then we'll.

have Michael respond and uh starting. with you far go ahead um on a personal. level I'm pro-life I wouldn't get an. abortion but on a macro level I'm. pro-choice okay yeah I have very mixed. um feelings and thoughts when it comes. to abortion I am generally speaking. pro-choice um do I think abortion at any. stage is moral no not necessarily. however I do have strong um reservations. about the government being able to. dictate um when exactly or like just. deciding like oh like let's have not.

have any pro-choice pro- lifee all the. way I have like very strong reservations. of the government being able to dictate. um a law to that nature so I have I have. a mixed bag right now Jasmine yeah I. think abortion is one of the hardest. moral issues like it's so unique and I. think anyone who thinks it's so easy on. the other side just hasn't delved into. this topic enough because there's really. good Arguments for both sides I. typically hold like what the question is. when is that fetus or whatever you're. going to call it depending on the stage. a person and I think the strongest. argument for me is the Consciousness one.

so what to to me having a baby like. that's alive and something in a Petri. dish like I don't see those two things. as exactly the same but I do think. they're really good arguments it's just. a really hard topic why would you not. have an abortion for your own child but. you would uh permit it or even maybe. recommend it for others same reason I've. been vegetarian my whole life but I. don't force it onto others like I have. my own personal visceral reaction to. certain types of behavior such as you. know hunting factory farming and even. possibly abortion but that isn't. necessarily mean I'm deducing some sort.

of like moral imperative from that well. I should hope if you care about a bunny. rabbit and you know you won't eat uh a. hamburger then certainly you would care. about a human being and it seems like. that's the The Logical connection sure. but doesn't that then seem to be like. saying look I would never murder my. precious baby but all you often poor. black people you can kill your babies. that's just fine no because I I never. said I do it because I view it as murder. I said it's more of a visceral reaction. so it's unreasonable you just think it's. yucky um yes I found it yucky open the.

doll's mouth and put a cigar in it but I. don't think that's wrong to do me out. and I was going to. ask that was not my. idea crit for that I did think it was. very funny but I was not my idea uh look. I love what you just said it was what a. beautifully honest thing you admitted. you said I find abortion to be wrong. wrong and I didn't say wrong for you. wrong for you when we say wrong we're. usually moralizing it I just said I. found it gross and I had to look away. when you open the sex doll's mouth that. doesn't mean I think it was wrong.

abortion Boo for her yes you're you're. saying I find abortion repulsive and. therefore I wouldn't do it even though I. can't reason as the process grosses me. out I find it gross to use a tampon I. don't use one I don't think people. shouldn't use it I personally don't want. to do I find it invasive I find the. process you know what I mean certain. things to be invasive but that doesn't. mean I'm going to prescribe it for. everyone or even moralize it what you've. just articulated is something called the. wisdom of repugnance which is an idea. that was elaborated on by the. bioethicist Leon Cass about 20 years ago. he had a a famous book on this.

uh we don't write a moral Treatise on. every single thing I get out of bed. should I have eggs or pancakes so I. don't know let me write a 10 page no you. just kind of you just go on your. prejudices a lot of the time and I know. Prejudice is a really nasty word these. days but most prejudices are right you. know it's just you can't but sometimes. are wrong like slavery some racis but. there there were also plenty of people. who recognize the moral but that. argument doesn't pan out you said I. should doce some sort of correctness and. morality from my Prejudice but if I just. said I enjoy getting abortions like I. love the process it gives me pleasure.

the same way getting a tattoo would you. wouldn't then say that that I should. moralize virtually no people would say. that what what most women say when they. support abortion is exactly what you. just said which is well I wouldn't do it. but I think it should be a right and so. now I think okay I'm glad you've you've. said you wouldn't have an abortion and. you've arrived at that through Prejudice. or however I don't care how you arrive. at it but now I think at that point we. have to apply reason to this which is. okay why do you find it repulsive well. because it's invasive well because I. don't like stirups well okay fine all. those reasons but at a certain point. especially you really seem to care about.

living things because you don't want to. eat animals either okay I I think. there's a moral difference between a. human being and a cow but what you're. recognizing is there's something. monstrous there's something morally uh. significant about that's why I use the. analogy again of you putting the cigar. in the doll's mouth and also grow having. a sex doll is morally significant you. know I mean I'm glad that she's just. being used as my debate partner here to. help me so it's not three-on-one but uh. you know if one were to use this sex. doll in the way for which it was built. that would be depraved and disgusting.

and uh so frankly having her advertise. my cigars is probably one of the most. wholesome uses for this right so I. personally wouldn't get a tattoo I find. that process very repulsive and the idea. freaks me out and I would pay to not get. a tattoo does that mean I'm moralizing. it and I should be you know moralizing. that proclivity towards not getting a. tattoo and prescribe that other people. don't do it like why is abortion why are. you assuming that I'm not getting an. abortion for some moral reason no I. don't think you're doing it for a moral. reason I think you happily have arrived. through your own natural tastes and. preferences and prejudices at a correct.

moral conclusion but the the moral. conclusion the reason abortion is wrong. is because you're killing a baby you. said he a cow why is it different than a. cow to you come again why is a human. different than a cow because human. beings are rational so is a. person less of a person than a. non-retarded person no uh all people. have defects you know none of us even me. none of us is perfect but the the. species of human beings the thing that. separates us from the animals is that we. have will and intellect this is why we. don't if you found out that like cows. have it or if you found a person or if.

you have a person who there's people who. have really significant brain defects. ETA yeah there are people who have all. sorts of disabilities and. defects rality yeah whole um do you. believe in contraception I believe it. exists but I would strongly discourage. it even for married couples who want to. like child plan yeah I think couples. should be open to life even though I. think married couples should be open to. though there's like an overwhelming. amount of data that suggests that. contraception lowers like abortion rates. basically right if a person never gets. pregn think people should have more.

babies and once they conceive the babies. they should also not murder the babies. but I I yeah I don't wait married couple. should just every time they have suck. should get pregnant or should be aiming. towards getting pregnant you know. believe it or not it's actually it. usually doesn't work quite like that but. I think they should have more kids yeah. totally and there also by the way there. are. um uh again it's morally controversial. but there are uh modes of a more natural. process that would be able to quite. accurately time a woman until we're at. the point where we're getting rid of. abortion then are are are you then in.

favor of contraception I I also reject. the premise that you've just made which. is that contraception reduces abortion. rates I think you know there's a very. easy way to cherry-pick those data. because you can you know you can say. well in this very small subset of data. uh where we give uh condoms to college. kids or whatever they have lower. abortion rates but broadly speaking over. the past 60 years we've had a. proliferation of contraception and we've. had a proliferation of abortion the. rates have spiked and they've lowered it. sometimes but they've remained fairly. High and the reason is more fundamental.

than statistics which is that we have a. uh mentality now that sex can come. without consequences and so condoms can. be very effective and whatever like. women put inside themselves and what. that can be very effective too but. sometimes it's not and by accepting the. mentality that sterile sex is a right it. uh it then implies a right to kill the. baby so so you don't actually have to. face the consequences when it happens I. think I pushed back on the idea that. like people were not having sex prior to. contraception because I never suggested. that oh I I thought it was suggested.

because when you're saying like oh no. abortion rates have gone up since. contraception I'm not sure if that's. they were having kids before. contraception and they were also getting. abortions before no no I mean you know. the other reason why it's I think silly. to try to separate these two phenomena. is they occurred basically at the same. time so you had legal abortion beginning. in 1973 with roie way though had been. legalized in in other states prior uh. this was you know the 1960s 1970s the. sexual Revolution when uh contraception. became much much much more popular and.

available and abortion did at the same. time too so it's simply a fact as. contraception became more popular the. abortion rate went up now you might say. well those are disconnected phenomena. okay maybe they are but they certainly. occurred at the same time at least to my. understanding um and maybe we can even. search this up right now um people did. have abortions or did have a high rate. of of abortion before even like roie. Wade what would happen is that they were. like more like back alley abortions. illegal abortions such abortions that. like basically put the mother's life in. danger uh no none of that's true they.

they were having abortions uh it wasn't. at a particularly High rate the rate. spiked after roie Wade and it is true. sometimes women died from Back Alley. abortions there's a a fake statistic. that went around that was cooked up by. the abortion industry which said that. thousands of women a year were dying of. abortions just before roie Wade Dr. Bernard Nathanson who was the head of R. the abortion rights League admitted they. just made that statistic up out of thin. air and it we can fact check it because. we have the statistics from the CDC so. the year before roie Wade made abortion.

legal nationally uh do you know how many. women died of back alley. abortions um I I was specific number. from theine 39 is the number and and do. you know how many women died of legal. abortions 24 and so almost the same but. you'd say was a little bit higher for. the illegal abortions except that if you. look at the number of states that had. legal abortion versus illegal abortion. if you control for that variability it. comes out to almost exactly the same. number and it was very very low number. so uh you know it wouldn't be a that. wouldn't be a recommendation of legal.

abortion to my understanding right now. if we decide to like like take a state. or a county where one county has um a. greater amount of contraceptive access. promotes it more um teaches kids about. contraceptive use versus a county that. there isn't that necessarily same level. of sex education the one that has the. less amount of sex education contracep. access would have higher amounts of. abortion do you dispute that the one. that has higher did you say that the one. that has higher rates of sex education. would have higher rates of abortion no. the one that has higher rates of sex.

education and higher rates of like. contraceptive use will have less. abortions than the one where there's no. sex head basically places that have less. sex head have higher well it sort of it. depends it depends on if we're talking. about a u a community that is uh. strongly discourages contraception and. premarital sex and abortion uh that. would be uh less likely if uh we're. talking about a community that has very. low rates of religiosity and low rates. of getting married but also low rates of. sex education which is just kind of.

liberal sexual Revolution teaching um. then maybe you would have higher rates. of abortion there I I don't dispute that. at all I mean we live in a culture now. that is broadly um supportive of. abortion and of contraception including. religious communities but if you you. know to use my own group of religious. people if you look at Catholics compared. to the rest of the country and then if. you look at traditional Catholics you. know guys who like the Latin mass and. smells and bells compared to regular. Catholics the rates of divorce plummet.

the rates of abortion plummet the rates. of contraceptive views plummet the rates. of childbirth go through the roof and so. I the reason I pick that group out more. than the others is they seem to have all. of the pieces that I'm talking about. here um and whereas others they might. have one but not two you know they might. have three and uh so there it's it's. much harder to. compare how do you make people more. Catholic well you know I'm doing my best. aren't I yeah you are I'm doing my very.

best if it doesn't work what's your plan. be because it seems like no look even. Beyond if someone says well Michael I. GRE with a lot of what you say but I'm. not a Catholic or something okay fine. you know I'm just all I'm doing is. stating the truth as I see it as as. clearly and often as I can and uh you. know that led me to certain conclusions. I hope it leads them to the same ones. but if if uh people are just if first. they recognize that the truth exists and. and that we have faculties of reason. that can be Noble that's good and if. people recognize that we can that there.

are better things and worse things and. we can do better things and worse that's. good and if people recognize that having. self-discipline is good and will lead to. a more happy life then I'm very happy. about that and down the line maybe I. haven't is that not what people are. doing right now like you don't think. people are you think like you think. people like it is the fact that people. actually think it is better for the. well-being of society to not stick. stigmatized like gay marriage they'. belied that now you I don't think. there's any such thing as gay marriage. you know I think it gets back to the. feminist problem which is I think Mar. marriage either has sexual difference at. the heart of it or it just doesn't mean.

anything you know it's just another. group of people so then why don't you. let them get married by the state if. it's just doesn't mean anything it's not. up to me it marriage either means the. union of a man and a woman the. complimentary Sexes for the for the good. of the spouse is sure and for the. creation of children for the creation of. a family or it or it's just like your. Budd but you said beneficial let's say. it's beneficial as a society to. recognize those marriages it creates. less turmoil whatever is then is it true. and is it good let's is it beneficial to.

recognize a vegan lion you know it's. just not real and so we can pretend is. it beneficial to pretend that a man is a. woman I don't know he might think it is. for a short period of time but it's not. I mean this is this is one of the. problems really with the proliferation. of of porn and other uh vices and the. drugs and all that stuff is it it causes. people to lose perhaps what little. control of their reason they previously. had I mean this is this is one of the. really bad problems about all porn only. fans included but obviously the the big.

industrial stuff too is it appeals most. basically to the puran interest the. thing that it does is arouses people and. I listen none of you are women you're. all women I'm not a woman none of you. are men I'll speak from the male. perspective I think I'm relatively. reasonable relatively at least I think. I'm in but pretty reasonable pretty. reasonable do you think all reasonable. people would necessarily come to your. conclusions uh yes at least to a lot of. them but I will tell you this if I am in.

a state of uh you know passionate. excitement if uh you know this is why I. don't look at these things but if if if. a man were to look at those things he. would lose control of his reason very. very quickly and that's that's degrading. even taking the actions outside of it. you know to to have an industry out. there the purpose of which is to make. men less reasonable and to do things. that can be destructive to themselves or. to their families or to whatever is is. not going to lead to a flourishing.

Society we all have sex drives that's. just true if you could eliminate sex. drives from people no we all have sex I. but there's a I'm I'm not say are you. reasonable when you're having sex with. your wife in that moment I think I am. actually I think I'm pretty more. reasonable than others in the midst of. it you're you're J I think so look I I. mentioned Dante before I love Dante in. Divine Comedy. I'm not saying we should deny our. desires or suppress them or you know. pretend that we don't we don't have sex. drives I got red blood man you know I. think that we need to sublimate our. desires to the right ends and to the.

good place so so you say uh you know if. I'm doing the thing that men and women. do with each other within the context of. marriage am I doing it in a reasonable. way I I like to think I am meaning is it. open to life is it going to produce. children is it um degrading to one. partner or the other I hope it's not is. it um uh. reasonable with uh you're assuming the. only reasonable way to uh to I guess. procreate yeah or this urge that you. have the sexual urge is if you do it in.

this context yes but that's just your. assumption I think no it's the. conclusion I've arrived at through. reason because I think there are ends to. things you know like the end of this. delicious Mayflower cigar would be for. me to smoke it the end of this uh cup of. water but if you use the cup to kill a. bug are you misusing the cup you you are. misusing it it it won't kill the bug as. well Ian I'm not saying that that's. immoral necessarily but but it won't. kill the bug as well as it will bring. you water and so the purpose of my eyes. is to see the purpose of my mouth is to. actually to smoke cigars but maybe to. eat as a secondary purpose and the.

purpose of my sexual my my sexuality is. Finds Its expression in procreation. which is not going to happen between a. couple of fellas or you know three dudes. in a billy goat it's going to happen. within the context of marriage speaking. of the cup do you need a refill you know. I. could you're too kind my dear thank you. I feel very patriarchal kind um I do. have a question for you I just want to. find out what the threshold is obviously. you morally condemn porn and I guess I. want to know from like your tradcon. perview do you also condemn strip clubs. Pro obviously prostitutes brothel um.

Playboy magazine Victoria Secret. especially play fashion shows what about. well Victoria Secret fashion shows now. feature like dudes and you know plastic. bags so I don't I don't even know if. that's traditional like vs Angel shows. do you condemn because I guess I get. annoyed when people just morally burden. porn stars and I feel like it's just. because of the financial component but. then they're still like I said going. going to Hooters all the time and I feel. like a lot of conservatives especially. tradcons are okay with you know what I. mean lusting after women in those. settings I'm very opposed to lusting. after women and I think it's tant them. out to adultery so you would morally.

condemn Hooters and Victoria Secret. fashion shows and those I mean again the. there are different obviously these are. differences of degrees so Hooters you. know it's women wearing like tight. clothing and giving you chicken wings. and I'm not saying it's ideal I wouldn't. recommend having Christmas dinner there. but uh you know I I think it's far less. objectionable than say going to a strip. club or going to the the red light. district or looking at pornography you. know the thing about pornography that's. that's really in particularly bad about. this too is it's so unnatural so you. know and on the one hand you'd say well.

it's better to look at porn than to. cheat on your wife wouldn't recommend. doing either but porn is even more. unnatural because there's not even. another person involved you know it's. just glittering images on a screen and. then you're doing a shameful act with. yourself if you were watching it with. your partner and there is data out there. that that actually a lot of people. report watching porn together actually. makes their sex ual relationship better. and they report higher sexual. satisfaction in that context do you. think it's okay or is it just immoral. for you because you're a Catholic no I I. think the reason that it's bad is one it. would turn your sexual desire to another.

woman and it would view it would cause. you to view women as sexual objects. rather than as proper subjects and I. think uh one of the other problems with. porn that shapes the way you would view. all women including your wife is that it. it treats people as Commodities so it. what it does is it causes you to sell. yourself as though you were just merely. flesh you know for the for the. irrational excitement of some some other. person and that is intrinsically. degrading because you're a rational. creature with a with a mind and a that's. why I think only fans is the best. iteration of sex work because sex work.

as they say is the world's like oldest. profession it's never going away like. even in 2005 which is over 10 years. before the Advent of only fans 16% of. American men were buying sex and over. half of them were doing it regularly. from prostitutes so I don't like that we. blame porn when sex work has always been. a thing even a lot of Christian men will. go to the strip club like a week before. getting married and that's considered. like traditionally acceptable exactly. and I feel like only fans is the. healthiest iteration even by your. characterization because it reinstates. the soul because the biggest only fan. stars are famous for their personality. people like amarinth Bel deline Bella. Thorne it reinstates that personality so.

I feel like it's actually reducing this. idea of only lusting after a woman for. her flesh it's actually thre. dimensionalizing her again so do you. think only but it still it still reduces. the relation of the Sexes to a mere. monetary transaction and it and it. commoditized the woman because she's the. product so I mean isn't that capitalism. though like when you have a cashier. aren't you like object. there are problems with capitalism the. cashier scenario I don't think is a a. great if you're using when someone the. mechanic is working on your car you're. not like super interested in his.

thoughts and feelings you're using him. as a means to so what's what is so bad. about sexual objectification when we. objectify celebrities athletes all these. because the mechanic is performing a. rational and edifying action for me that. uh benefits the two of us um a. prostitute say is turning herself into a. mere instrument for my own lower. pleasure so you know I totally agree. with you that prostitution has been. around forever and there have actually. been moral arguments including from St.

Augustine and St Thomas aquinus against. uh prohibiting this as a matter of law. too aggressively because you might one. might say that then society would be. convulsed by lust so you you have to. strongly uh circumscribe it but not. totally get rid of it and I don't know. what so you're Pro only fans I'm not pro. only the the uh but you think it's the. healthiest iteration or the I mean. you're asking me what's the least. dangerous arsenic you know I I don't. know I guess there's some diluted form. of it but they're all they're all deadly. they're all going to get you I guess I.

just didn't like this argument that the. reason uh prostitution or pornography is. worse than maybe like a Hooters is. because it's reducing people you said to. like glitter glittering the woman at. Hooters is having a nice conversation. with me and bringing me my chicken and. she's not actually stripping down and. she's not actually performing sexual act. I find that more immoral I feel like. that's the more reductionist flesh. version of sex work because she has to. more perform of role versus if you're. subscribing to a twitch stream or who. already you like it's based off her. personality like she sets the rule she. sets the personality she sets the. interaction audience sets the rules. really and no they're subscribing more. for her personality and Hooters it's.

already a predetermined role in uniform. and costuming that they're assuming I. suspect if you talk to the top earning. performers on only fans they would tell. you that the customer is always right. they' tell you the same thing that the. cashier and the waitress. would that's not true I have very strict. boundaries I make the rules and you. don't you don't take into consideration. the desires of your audience I don't. believe that I mean so do you think. you're commodifying yourself to the day. like when you're on doing your show but. the thing that I'm selling is my. opinions about the world I do like. philosophy live streams naked well I I. then half of that is probably a good.

idea but but the the pro you know the. problem with uh doing it naked is it's. kind of cheating isn't it it's cheating. because you're you're uh attracting. eyeballs with something that is um you. know irrational and then maybe you're. giving them some philosophy they don't. have to be completely separate at all. times like even in marriage like when. you're horny you're not at that moment. like having this deep conversation and. you're so interested in their thought. like you have an like you can channel. that in a healthy way so something that. I found is a lot of men when they would. see me speak and they're like I really.

like what you say but now it's hard to. jerk off to you because I have this. weird thing but then once they like get. exposed to it and now they're like oh. actually it's really cool I love it like. you know we might have this inclination. to see people in these. categories these categories but that it. doesn't mean that just because you're a. sexual object in this context that you. are in every context yeah I guess it's. just uh if you're I think they probably. make a good point which is I have viewed. you in this degraded way and now I'm I'm. surprised to see you in a different way.

and that's why it's important to expose. them to that cuz that's perhaps but even. the way you're you're talking about. sexual desire still seems to be very. self-regarding right you're saying if. you want to sleep with your wife it's CU. you're Randy or something but that you. know that that would be the difference. between say love and sex I think I. forget who wrote this maybe it was. Chesterton or Lewis or one of these guys. uh the you know sex is oh no it's fton. Sheen actually the Archbishop and former. TV star uh sex is totally self-regarding. so uh when one looks at porn it's to.

gratify one's own lusts when one is. married and or just even in love one is. willing the good of the other person and. so you you can this is not just Pie in. the Sky Mambi pami stuff that the the. result of self-regarding sex Solo or. with other people is sterility and the. um instrument mization of other people. for your own desires the the end result. of love which is giving to the other. person is to edify the spouse but it. literally becomes so real that another. person is created as a result of it.

pixie go ahead this doesn't have to do. with the porn usage but I just want to. Circle back to something that's just. been stuck on my mind um earlier you. were talking about basically like these. kind of biological imperatives that like. women and men have naturally Fallen to. and then um basically feminism is like. trying to destroy that that's like my. understanding of your argument but I. don't think it's just biological cuz I. think we're just bodies and flesh I. think we're also Souls souls and bodies. together okay cuz what I was going to. say is that when people make like these. biological arguments of men having to be. this one way and women having to be this. other way to me that doesn't necessarily.

follow because like we've literally had. laws after law and place trying to. prevent women from getting into the. workforce from having um being able to. open a bank account from even being able. to pursue certain legal matters so when. people make this biological argument of. like oh no you know men are just more. naturally inclined towards working roles. it would follow then that there would be. no need for these laws it would just be. a biological imperative there's no need. for you to have a law where you know. blood flows through you or where you. have a heart these are just things that. are true but when it comes to our roles.

in society and I think this is what. feminist pushed back on it seems like. instead of it being a real biological. imperative it is forced upon the social. structure yeah I are you suggesting that. women are as happy working in an office. as a man is um they could be depends on. the woman hypothetically I guess they. could be but do you think talking to. your female friends and looking at what. social scientific data there are you. really think women are as satisfied and. happy in office work definitely just. saying in the aggregate yeah I think if. you're really being honest with me right.

now I think you would say probably women. are less happy I don't think either of. them are happy which is happier. than well what I think is interesting. about this argument is that we do have. like a clear period of time where hey. you know women had were staying at home. whatever then when the men went out to. war they went towards these jobs and. when the men came back they didn't want. to leave so to me to be saying like oh. no like you know they're all in general. happier at home well we had a clear. period of time where wom expressly. against that no we did and then we we as.

I mentioned earlier we measured against. it and we measured how it turned out and. all but one of the surveys showed that. the women became less happy so I I'm I'm. totally willing to take these surveys. with a grain of salt but in as much as. we can measure them they undercut your. argument no there was a survey that. showed that men are happier are just. sitting on their ass all day on like. some Island watching TV in do you think. that they should strive towards that uh. no cuz they wouldn't be happier in the. long term because happiness is an. objective matter it's not purely um. subjective so uh like men though truly.

this is why Genesis 3 is written the way. that it is men do not want to Lord over. women they don't want to dominate women. they don't want to be knuckle drags you. know what men want to do they want to. sit on the couch and eat potato chips. and be left alone that's what men that. that's the broken dark I'm just saying I. think everyone would be happier in the. short term sitting at home on a couch. which is why I think those studies to. self-reported happiness refers to that. I think women would be happier in the. short term playing the girl boss and. having all sorts of you know colorcoded. notebooks and Pen pens and stuff but. they would find that they don't actually. like it they don't really want to work. at the law firm they don't really want.

to be in the widget Factory they they. would rather do something that is more. naturally feminine I think it's also. interesting how you're ascribing these. surveys of like self-reported happiness. going lower as a result of in the being. in the workplace when I wonder if you. start um yeah because yeah exactly I. wonder if when you start um looking down. into the specific reasons why a person. might report greater amounts of. unhappiness um I'm sure there's a lot of. reasons I could range right so for. example they're all. feminists high you're like let's say. experiencing like some sort of like. sexual harassment in the workplace for.

example which in that case it's not. necessarily oh they're less happy doing. work they're just less happy. experiencing sexual harassment for. example days I'm not saying it never. happens because obviously you know you. hear some me too stories Matt La. whatever you know Vince McMahon I'm not. saying it it doesn't happen but these. days the law and the culture are so. radically opposed to men and in favor of. women in the situation the um frequency. of sexual harassment in the workplace is. basically zero can you give me an.

example and the reason why I'm asking. for an example specifically is because I. actually as a feminist think one of the. failures of the me too movement was um. not being able to legislate a lot of the. Grievances put into place so even if. like you're a company is not supposed to. like sexually harass um or you're not. supposed to sexually harass you're. always subordinate whatever whatever um. most of these cases will ever be. criminal they'll just be at most civil. maybe if they're even prosecuted sure. but what are we talking about we're. talking about an errant comment or we're. talking about you know I like your shirt. today Sally or something or are we.

talking about you know a rape or. something yeah I I guess what I'm asking. you is like what specific um laws have. been put to place that heavily favor. women against men well there already. laws there are laws against sexual. assault right and there are law and but. but the um HR practices that have been. put into place throughout Corporate. America uh to totally favor women if if. a woman comes in and says uh you know. let's say a man and a woman in an office. had a consensual Affair the minute that. woman reports that that guy is gone a. guy is gone at every major company in. America let's say that a a man just kind.

of seems a little creepy or makes a. woman feel uncomfortable because he. compliments her glasses that day or. something that guy is very likely going. to be gone the the corporate America has. has so um taken the the feminist. position to heart that that men don't. even want to speak to women in the work. place it's one of the reasons the. companies often don't want to hire women. is they recognize that their legal. liability goes through the roof that. seems like an exaggeration was that do. you actually think that that if a guy. compliment a girl's glasses I'm not. saying she would report it cuz people.

are usually nice and men and women. generally like each other you think. that's how much the institutions have. over corrected that a man will get fired. for just complimenting a woman. innocuously and unsually I think he very. easily could be punished for that yeah. maybe not outright fired but he he would. face professional I mean it be cool to. see stories that I haven't seen anything. anywhere close and I feel like any type. of conservative media Outlet would like. jump jum on that hard all all I've got. are are anecdotes here but no I don't. think the conservative media would cuz. we're not I'm not prosexual harassment. also to go back to happiness and. feminism and girl bosses and females in. the workspace another reason that women.

could have lower reported happiness is. because they're still showing showing up. on most of the household duties despite. now also taking up uh you know what I. mean they're doing still AI domestic. work they don't get married anyway so. they don't even have households that's. not true they're still they're still. cohabitating they're. still I agree cohabitation makes women. unhappy too I mean even within marriage. now you don't think a majority of. there's a ton of marriages in which. women are also working and then also. Shoring up a Lon share of the household. duties and that's why they're unhappy. because now they're being burden in two. directions yeah sure but so what's the.

solution to that the solution solution. is men showing up more on domestic. duties but they won't because of. freaking tradcons and neocons who are. telling them that it's gay and beta if. they do these certain tasks it is it is. gay and beta most of the time I agree I. also think that's why men are suffering. so for instance like the unemployment. rate of men returning back to the. workforce is very very high right now. and that's because I men as like. tradcons and neocons so for instance. what do you mean by Neo you mean like. the of. warmongering you're a neocon I'm not. liia or something what what does that. mean I'm not the politics guy okay NE I.

think we're using neocon in a way I'm. not familiar with I'm using Donn. Rumsfeld next to me okay a lot of just. meninists are actually hurting men and I. think they're also hurting women they're. also hurting women because like I said. women are doing worse mentally because. they're showing up on domestic duties. and Men won't take up these. responsibilities cuz it's seen as gay. and beta and we you know what I mean you. guys are. an easy solution wait can I finish sure. men are menist are kind of pushing for. this like revanchist return to just like. older times and even though you claim. you're not trying to turn the clock back. a lot of the solutions that men and us. are advocating for just won't help men.

because the burgeoning sectors right now. are overly feminized it's stuff like. nursing Child Care hospitality and these. industries are actually reaching out to. men and they're trying to recruit them. but a lot of men will turn them down and. instead they're sitting on their ass. they're addicted to opiates like over. half of unemployed men are addicted to. some sort of painkiller they're playing. video games all day they're Jackie off. to porn which is yes one problem but. there's so many others and feminism is. was telling men like you know what I. mean leave your toxic masculinity behind. join a nursing career join a teaching. career but they won't do it because of. tradcons and neocon telling them that. they're gay and beta if they do these. kind of like unw Warrior like positions.

H I don't know I don't am I in a warrior. like position what's that movie with. dairo and Ben Stiller Meet the Parents. where he's the male nurse do you agree. with like don't think Richard Reeves's. take on like men should be the way we. pushed women to join stem we should be. pushing men to join heel which is health. education administrative jobs like do. you think that there should be a push. like instead of saying men do this job. and women do this job like I don't think. trackon do as much as like red I'm not. pointing to say you're red pillar but. like that men Your Role is to be an ATM.

machine and to make money and like to be. strong and fight and if you don't do. that then you're not a man like you're. not as much of a man if you're a teacher. do you do you agree with that no I I've. had wonderful male teachers you know I I. don't really care to push people to any. particular field or other I think I'm no. no libertarian but I think the market. will generally sort that out and and I. think interference in that regard is. usually does more harm than good but no. a man but you know teaching is a very. manly thing actually you know I mean. it's a you're imparting wisdom and. knowledge and you're you know shaping a. young mind that's a very manly field I.

agree but you said women are better at. domestic tasks than men are and teacher. or a nurse is not a domestic task it can. be it can occur inside the home and. frequently does why does it seem like. why does it why do domestic means within. the home why do people see it as. feminine like people see nurses and. teachers as feminine like a third grade. male teach nurturing yeah so it's that. that you think is better suited for. women yeah I think women tend to be more. nurturing than men that's because of. their experience in the domestic life is. that's why they're now more conent with. these burgeoning industries such as. nursing teaching Child Care Hospitality. food preparation it's because of what.

they're being trained to do at the home. so when tradcon say that like men should. focus on public life while women should. focus on these more domestic errand. they're actually hurting men in the long. run because now men aren't equipped to. do these burgeoning industries look I. think also you know don't forget life. isn't just set and static all the time a. woman could say go to school and then. work a job job you know I don't know she. teaches for a few years and then she. gets married and she wants to leave. teach or she's a nurse for a few years. or what you know we're not we don't just. like sign up like surfs for the rest of. our lives we're just doing one task but. I do think that it's not just a matter.

of social construction I think women are. more nurturing and so our nurses more. likely to be women you know it are. Elementary School teachers more likely. to be women yes there some men that's. that's interesting to say because when. we look historically like the reason why. women tended to take those roles is. because those were the only roles that. society would let take it was not so say. I don't really buy that no we can like. look at the law study the last name was. woo on the researcher where like if. right now we have like a certain. percentage of women in stem and a. certain percent of men in uh like heel.

types of jobs if people were actually. choosing based on their interest you'd. get you would still get more you're. right but it would be like 30% men in. people people are often duded by their. interests you know and people uh have. have a view of what they will excel at. and uh what they're inclined to do that. is often out of step with reality and. virtually no influenced by what Society. tells them they'll totally totally and. but ironically I think we all concluded. earlier that today it's the liberal. feminist view that dominates all the. major institutions right didn't.

we we men site not wanting to join. nursing and teaching at part as part of. the reason is because they see it as. very feminine you think liberal feminism. is the culprit and not meninism or. neocon trecon you know it's the neocon. thing keeps keeps shaking because. neocons refer to like Irving Crystal and. Norman P Horus say do you think when say. that they don't want to join nursing and. teaching the nursing prrams and teaching. programs have like put out you know I. mean research of why men won't join. these industries despite them reaching. out and one of the biggest reasons is. because they feel like it's overly.

feminine do you think that's due to. Liberal feminism or due to conservatism. that fear no I think it's just natural I. think it's just a natural thing about. men they they are not inclined toward. the uh Nur those more nurturing but the. alternative is they're sitting at home. unemployed right now they're reaching. out to unemployed men it's not men in. stem they're reaching out to men who are. disaffected right now and they won't do. it still because it's seen as gay yeah I. think the men the men should work you. know but they should maybe do things. that they're more inclined to do I don't. think we need to conscript men to go. become nurses wearing frilly little.

dresses but they're not more inclined to. do because you know what I mean manual. labor jobs are basically getting. eradicated and a lot of these men not to. be mean aren't necessarily smart enough. to go into stem so I think other. Industries might be better for them they. they'd rather sit at home to preserve. their masculinity and I think. conservatism is to blame for that part. of part of no think Mass migration is. actually to blame for the problem of the. working classes not having as much. employment as they used to um which is. something that conservatives generally. haven't pushed I think there are all. sorts of political reasons that that. happens but I don't think that any.

amount of feminist indoctrination and. brainwashing is going to convince a man. that he really wants to do an extremely. feminine role not about really really. wants to do like you know what I mean. that's an entitle G for doing that's a. different a liberal feminism is that. liberal feminism has to push up women. but it has left I think Men Behind in a. lot of ways and this is one of those. also we're painting with way too broad a. brush I mean a man can be a nurse and. there are aspects of the nursing. profession that can be perfectly. masculine and same obviously same goes. with teaching but if broadly if we want.

to zoom it out even further and say well. these loser men who are all addicted to. opiates and they're just like you know. sitting around with porn these guys need. to get off their behinds and take the. only job available to them which is to. put on a frilly dress and be a girl I. think that's a ridiculous false dich why. do you see that as putting on a frilly. dress to go into like nursing and. Hospitality supposing that it's feminine. and gay you're doing the thing it is. more feminine yeah it's really dressy to. go into nursing. that's here you're telling them that. they're preserving their masculinity to.

sit at home and half of them being aded. to painkillers I'm telling you I think. it's a false dichotomy and I think the. reason that you're picking those fields. which are those are the most burgeoning. 15 sectors right now everything a lot of. other things are getting wiped out. nursing is like a good what are the. other what are the other 15 what are the. other 13 um janitor nursing. child. hity not food preparation that's not I. mean so which ones are frill just. outl like Emerald legasi right dick yeah.

Emerald legasi is not that's that's not. too frill you know if you're a big man. Chef you just like bam throw that's that. can be you like you're hurting men with. this kind of rhetoric of being like you. need to add so much machismo to these. professions be like okay I'm I'm not. adding anything I'm I'm observing. reality and articulating my per. the reason you chose nursing is because. you know that it's a generally n. teaching child food well there are. plenty of male teachers they tend to be. more at the a little bit more at the. middle school level than more at the.

high school level than many more at the. college level that's true where where. those teaching jobs require much less. nurturing and a lot more just reciting. facts and logic so okay I just want to. ask do you think it's better for a guy. to sit at home and be unemployed than. going to nursing like you I think it's. better I think it's better to work than. not to work as long as the work is not. intrinsically pursue nursing because. it's gay they can pursue whatever they. like to pursue but they but you're. asking me why why are these men not. inclined to pursue careers that they. consider femin because they're men and. because the differences between men and. women are natural and they're not.

contingent on what you say and they're. not contingent on what I say okay my. question is that again if these things. are so natural and we can search it up. right now if you don't believe me but. why have there been laws in place. preventing women from working in fields. that are not nursing or teaching. historically if this is a biological. imperative there would be no need for. these laws i' be know which laws I'm I'm. not disputing that uh women have been. encouraged to stay home and that uh you. know that socially that's changed. because of the second world war or. because of the Advent of secal.

Revolution and contraception and all of. these other things that that that's. certainly true uh but I I think that for. a long time we recognized that the. family is the building block of society. and so we wanted to encourage family. formation and family stability and part. of family formation and family stability. is someone being able to raise the. children someone being able to take care. of the home while the other partner was. outside of the home and you might say. well why can't the man stay home with. the kids and why can't the woman go to. work yeah it can happen they're just. generally not inclined to do that.

because women are the ones who have the. babies and who are much sweeter with the. babies and who are much more responsive. to the baby's needs and men are the ones. who generally are a little bit more. outgoing and a little bit more publicly. or you've been very nurturing to Kiki I. have I even gave her one of my precious. Mayflower cigars available at Mayflower. cigars.com but you have to be 21 years. old or older some Supply we're going to. read a couple chats then we have two. quick topics and then we're going to. wrap up here so we have baby b Michael. love you dude and your reaction to Ben's. facts rap first time watching live love.

the love the stupidity and facts on this. channel looking forward to more this. year and maybe coming on sometime okay. thank you so he's talking about my buddy. Dr drel. Mich okay okay yeah and then we have. cpio. California even mad ex experts expers. don't agree that human life begins at. conception 20 to 50% of women experience. miscarriages in the first 13 weeks does.

that make those women murderers for not. taking proper care of Health wow that. everything about that was wrong uh you. know it to be a murderer you have to. commit an action so if a woman. miscarries she obviously hasn't. committed an action her child has died. and it's terribly sad and women suffer. for that and we don't even talk about it. because we have to all pretend that the. babies aren't really babies so the women. usually have to suffer in silence but uh. I also love this idea you know oh the. experts say that uh logic isn't real. anymore you know what is a a baby at.

conception means the beginning right so. the a b a baby is conceived when the. sperm and the egg come together and they. form a distinct human being with all of. the building blocks and processes of a. human being you might want to bury your. head in the sand and deny that but I. don't see how you can say it's obviously. a human being it's not a platypus or a. cow and it's obviously alive because it. demonstrates all of the processes of. life so you might say well the baby's. not morally significant I think we. should kill them anyway but don't would. you run over a pet Tre if you have to. choose one I'm trying to like weird.

crawly experiment where it's like a live. 2-year-old and then like 10 zygotes and. do you do you feel like you should save. the 10 you're saying Z got meaning that. very earliest stage of perception maybe. like um embryos were put into a freezer. or something yeah is that life well. would depend who the 2-year-old is. because because there there are. gradations of. you know I I owe greater charity to my. family than I do a stranger it's a. 2-year-old child and it's 10 zygotes and. you have to kill which one would you. choose it would be it would be dependent. on more factors than you're giving me.

because the way you're setting it. up oh BS donated. $200 men find fulfillment in providing. for their families financially which is. why typically most men won't want to. stay at home taking time off with. nothing to do for a work Orient man is. mind numbing and yet they're doing I. that's for. anybody yeah but they go crazy they all. get like addicted to drugs and you're. really sad and depressed so yeah they do. it but it's not fulfilling to them to to. your point though what you're setting up. is is premised on like a utilitarian.

ethic so you're you're you're asking me. you know to choose maybe I don't know. the greatest good for the greatest. number or but that's not how I view. ethics you know no I understand that my. point is that do you view a zyo like if. I if I knocked 10 people 10 people did. 10 people just die because 10's like. okay okay I do I'm not I'm not saying. that I reflexively in a moment if a fire. came I wouldn't grab the 2-year-old. instead of the zygote or whatever but. but that is a human being yeah we have a. chat here and burns thank you for your. TTS by the way Juan Gomez hey thank you.

man appreciate it men tend to be more. interested in things and women tend to. be more interested in people that's. going to play out on what people choose. as their career I agree with this I'm. just saying that like let's say we have. that's what the study showed like we. have 15% of women in and then what if if. people were actually choosing it would. be now 30% it still would be on average. that more women are interested in people. and men are interested in things but if. people are free to choose their own uh. interest out without having any cultural. or social factors in it it's still true.

that more men may do this and more women. may do this but more men than we see now. may be in certain fields and more women. would be in other fields I don't even. know what that means though like women. are more interested in people and men. and things I guess my debate partner is. a thing who looks like a person but I'm. very interested in people I don't even. know really what that means when you. look at careers women tend to work with. other people while men are more. interested in things like stem and locks. in a room example of like little boys. with trucks and little girls with dolls. that's what they that's true Michael. no's Garden donated.

$200 my sprinkler goes like. this comes back like this interesting. mhm yep mhm. do do you have a sprinkler system at in. your I did and I gave him a phone. actually okay I did and I thought I just. said like to my my garden system I said. call me if anything goes wrong but he's. abusing that what I gave him and now.

he's subcribing giving away 200 bucks. where'd you get that 200 bucks Garden. that comes from me that spreaded from my. land uh last two things since we were. talking about professions for a little. bit uh nin thing that uh often topic. that I hear um in feminist discourse is. the wage Gap uh do you guys believe that. there is a wage. Gap I mean yeah there is a wage Gap like. women generally make less money than men. whether it's morally okay or not it's a. different question but it's undeniably.

there pixie yeah there is a wage Gap. Jasmine um I I agree that there. technically is but the reasons for it. may be like I do agree with that. argument that men may take on longer. hours Etc women leave to take care of. their kids now would women choose like. the way the system is set up to take. that negative impact of going home with. their because when when women leave to. take care of their kids really hard to. get back into the workforce would they. choose that is that ideal no but that's. the way the our system is set up so I. think there's a lot of variables here. and it's the way all work is set up. right you're always going to prioritize.

more consistent experience yeah I. totally agree with your view sure it. exists but trust me if any business. could save 25% of labor costs by hiring. women only women would be working it's. not it's obviously because women don't. work as long hours they like to spend. more time with their kids they take time. off of course that cost that they take. for that is unfortunate but yeah maybe I. think it's good I I think it's good for. them to spend time with their kids I. think it's better than working in the. widget Factory pixie do you think that. the the gender wage Gap gender earnings.

Gap is it due to some of the reasons. that Jazzman articulated or do you think. it's due to perhaps sexism no there are. obviously cases where this is a case. right where there's difference in hours. and stuff but there have been like a. decent amount of studies showing that. even um when things are all equal. between um resumés or even between like. job performance um when conducted blind. um you know the woman will get the. proper appraisal approval whatever but. if it's a gendered name or even if it's. just like viewed as a gendered or.

whatever um women will suffer so there. is like a pre societal um connotation on. the idea that like hey women are less. able or apt to do certain X or Y task I. I do have not I know I'm kind of. moderating this I just want to jump in. on one thing uh this was a couple years. ago I think Google did a very thorough. and in-depth review of how they were I. believe paying their Engineers perhaps. it was a different uh segment of their. employees and they actually found that. they were underpaying the men and.

overpaying the women would that then be. evidence that. Google it was uh was or is sexist. towards men it could be I would have to. see the study specifically and what they. accounted for but yeah it's. theoretically possible um for a company. to also be sexist towards men mhm yeah. yeah for sure I you know I recently was. negotiating my contract with my beloved. employers and I was talking to my wife. who I gives me a lot of advice and I. said should I ask for a little bit more. on this thing or that she was like I.

don't know Mike I don't know I would. just take what they offer you it's. really nice I would just I said yeah but. I don't know they want me to kind of I'm. not you know they're going to not. respect me if I don't and she was like. ah ma this is why women make 25% less. money because we just don't want to. negotiate and we and I I totally is your. wife a South Park believe it she's a. mixture of Minnie Mouse. andman and like consa I don't know I've. been doing that voice for her for like. 15 years now sounds ex I got to Google. his wife after this that's amazing so. accurate yep okay uh any other anything.

else on the wage Gap Michael or no it's. real but it's fine like you know raising. kids is good having like you know who. cares man money is great I like money I. like being able to pay my bills I like. being able to buy nice cigars like. Mayflower cigars Mayflower cigars 21. years older older to buy them exclusions. apply but like I you know there's more. to life than money this is only $14 a. stick that's a great price after a box. discount it's like $9 a stick you know. what are you going to do with all this. money you're going to just pile it up. and buy more stuff who cares man they.

used to say that kids were the poor. man's wealth you know and kids I I'll. tell you I take my job seriously I love. my career I love being in public life. and having whatever political influence. I have it's awesome it means nothing. compared to having children I finished. my first book with words speechless when. I was in the delivery room with my our. first child and my wife's there pushing. out this kid and I'm there finishing the. final edits on my book to send in they. were both doing the same day they both. came and I I thought okay I finally done. I poured my heart and soul into this 18.

months of writing and I look over at my. kid and I realize that my book doesn't. matter at all and I think it's a good. book and it became a number one. bestseller and it nothing it matters. nothing compared to a baby and so I just. think good grief woman you know you're. going to put off having a family this. this wonderfully edifying thing to. go make like an extra 50 Grand a year. 150 Grand a year who car like are you. kidding me what a what a terrible deal. there's two things I want to say on that. topic um the first one is hopefully we.

both can agree that the wage Gap is a. problem if let's say two people um are. doing the same exact work or whatever. one shouldn't be looked down upon by. their sex um again we said that there's. cases where we understand the wage Gap. but hopefully we can agree on that when. when all factors are equal that should. not be if my if my Grandma had Wheels. she'd be a wagon sure you know if things. were different they'd be different okay. um and I guess the second thing is that. I think um the misconception or what's. down being downplayed here is that there. are strong correlation if not just.

straight up causation of being able to. um have a kid that's healthier um more. educated has better life prospects um. just overall a better life if you can. afford a better life for them so I think. there is something to be said about like. hey you don't have to be the top 1%. owner or you don't need that extra 25%. in your income yeah but I think there is. also something to be said about like hey. a lot of these women the reason why they. still want to work or they're still. interested because they want to provide.

the best possible life they can for. their family so I think um there is a. balance to be struck there I don't think. it's all just like oh it's kind of. frivolous money we have a bad political. economy right now that basically forces. women to work even when they don't want. to so it's no longer a choice it's more. an obligation for most people and I. agree that bad and we should take. political action to change that I'm all. for I think that would be great uh. however you can raise kids on not a lot. of money uh you know I didn't come from. a ton of money and I know a lot of my. friends didn't come from a ton of money. and you know yes you need to be able to.

eat you need a roof over your head you. need some clothes but you can do that. for a lot less than we have now the. problem is the two the two income trap. is that once you start living that dink. lifestyle you know dual income no kids. or the dinky lifestyle where it's like. no kids yet you get a customed to a. standard of living that you don't want. to give up but but it it's worth it yeah. make sure you can feed your kids but. make sure you have kids to feed last two. things here on the wage Gap um when it. comes to things like uh sports for.

example you know we've had in the uh the. national US Women's Soccer Team they. actually filed a lawsuit um I don't know. if you guys are familiar with that at. all so do you guys think that for. example the between the NBA and the WNBA. or the Women's National St team compared. to the men's do you think there should. be an. equalization in what they're paid no cuz. one generates more money pixie. yeah yeah let's go you guys are the most. patriarchal feminists I've ever my whole.

life but then in only fans we make more. money you know so yeah should they're. equal pay for men on only fans I think. is is our next you're just mad I'm. beating you pretty much um and last last. thing you only fans for his feet right. oh what's what do you sell on only fans. nothing I don't have we don't we do. technically have onlyfans.com whatever. there's one clothed picture of Kiki. that's it wow oh so it's not you no no. no no yeah I could see people for KiKi.

obvious with her beautiful cigar you. know what well okay um last thing on the. wage Gap um do you uh I have a question. for the three of you do you uh when it. comes to like dating right and we are. going to have a dating talk after this. with Michael joining us on that uh when. it comes to dating who do do you guys. want a guy to be a provider do you want. him to for example pay on first dates. just starting with you far going across. do I want him to be a provider. necessarily in terms of like rent.

necessarily like I'm planning on buying. my own house regardless of what my. partner makes when it comes to paying on. the first day I would prefer a partner. who does that not necessarily because I. need the money or I'm gold digging but I. think as a woman we are just way more. sexually selective and so the chances of. me even swiping on a guy in a dating app. and then actually pursuing the date are. so slim versus a guy is going to take up. any woman so I think actually having to. shore up resources shows like an equal. measure of selectiveness sure go ahead. um personally I don't really care about. like splitting on a first date I do. think it is more attractive when a guy.

does that but I think it's for one of. the reasons that far listed um do what. is it I want somebody who makes around. the same income as me or higher I'd be. okay dating somebody who makes less um. on the condition that they're taking up. more of the household labor which is. ically not likely and Jasmine what about. you uh first date like I just feel like. if the person who ask should pay and I. feel like if a guy doesn't I just get. this idea he's stingy and I'm definitely. not stingy like I like to pay for as. many people as I can and then when it. comes to the other question I actually.

like I have such high standards when I. look for things like intellect humor. that I don't that's why I make a bunch. of money myself like I'm actually. looking for a really hot Chef he doesn't. have to make money he'll just cuz I. can't cook so I'm looking for a. homemaker so slide in my DM well you. want you want a wife yeah but like a hot. Chef you did say whoever should pay more. often than not though are you asking men. out or have you do you ask men out I. don't ask men out that's it's sort of. almost uh I agree I think it's funny. when feminists say like no whoever as. should pay it's like fact that.

because more the thing about you you. just said it's we're more selective it's. funny the semantics to just say like no. no I don't think the menever should what. I mean why do you want your own. house um so I could just be financially. independent pick where I want to live. even even if you're. married um yeah like I would probably. buy a house before pursuing dating for. marriage yeah so what if and then he. would have his own house and You' I. guess from there we would figure it out. from there if we wanted to sell the. house or both live in the house like I'd. be fine moving a guy into my house yeah.

but and you would still own the house or. you'd split the house with him or he or. you'd transfer it to him I I wouldn't. transfer it to him it would be my house. for sure you would have separate. finances uh I don't know about that but. in terms of like where I want to live. I'm 100% picking that on my own and. getting my own house okay but so if the. man com go your bank accounts would go. together but you'd keep the house in. your name um if we're married I guess. we'd figur it out as we go but I'd. probably like date someone and then I. don't know I just don't want to be. dependent I don't want to like you don't. want to be dependent so that right. exactly you don't want to be dependent.

so why get. married why get married yeah I I could. be independent it'd be I could live on. my own I could hire a maid I could hire. a cook I could just whatever you know I. don't want to be independent I want to. be dependent on my wife I love my wife I. want to make a vow that I'm going to. stay with my wife forever and have a. nice big family and I don't want to be. separated at all I want to be one flesh. with my wife if I didn't want to do that. if I wanted to just be on my own but. have someone to mitigate the loneliness. and occasionally sleep with why get. married at all I I do want to get.

married I am going to eventually date to. Mary I think like my goal is to. eventually start dating like a year. dating under three months get engaged. get married I don't want to do the like. multi-year dating and like cohabitating. before I think that's a joke I think. it's a waste of time but I'm also I'm. also cognizant of the fact that men. today are a joke and there's a one in. four chance that your husband's going to. commit infidelity and I don't believe. necessarily like purs things you can do. to mitigate those stats though. mitigating infidelity for on my. husband's part what being a blow. doll for him no I wouldn't recommend.

that either uh no the things you could. do is marry men who for instance don't. recognize the sacramental reality of. divorce just to use exle I said I said. infidelity or or who recognize that. infidelity is every man I've ever dated. has been Christian conservative and at. least one of them I found an Oculus in. his closet where he's watching VR porn. in my experience like I said at the. macro level it's usually these Christian. conservatives who are the most porn. addicted and at a micro level these met. them dating you date a lot of these. Christian conservatives there's.

something about them that attracts you. well I'm waiting till marriage good oh. good so you don't okay well look that I. think that's fabulous and I love that. you as a feminist are very attracted to. Christian conservative men I think. that's good for society broadly um it's. bad that these guys are like looking at. porn or what whatever uh I don't know. that that necessarily implies that once. they get married they would either. continue to do that or would step out on. you and cheat and have an affair or. whatever I it does seem to me though. that certain groups of men are less. likely than others to sleep with other. women and so you know if you want to.

have that good stable life and maybe. overcome your fears of being dependent. on someone who might be a total loser. then you might might want to make sure. you don't pick a total loser but even. stepping out aside I mean I give you. those STS stats about correlation. between religious men and pornography. consumption prostitution purchasing so. like how can you say that some people. who are broadly religious of some sect. or other uh do that and all PE people. are tempted by things but I don't think. that we can just throw our hands in the. air and fall into a kind of romantic.

quietism and say Well they're all just. these dog these men are all dogs they're. all cats no actually some men are more. inclined to Virtue than others and uh. you know that that might if you but. based off the stats they would seem the. religious men are less inclined to. Virtue they're buying that's ridiculous. you're you're telling me that that uh. Christian men are more are more like no. no no you gave me a stat and said uh you. know certain red states with certain. religious groups consume certain kinds. of porn or whatever the more Christians. are in state the more pornography.

consumption and searches there are in. prostitution purchases yes it would seem. that perhaps there are other factors at. play there when you're talking about a. full State I don't know when you're. talking about class income when you're. talking about education when you're. talking about family formation in the. first place when you're talking for. goodness sakes you're talking about. geography you know we're talking about. whole states here and you're pulling one. variable out and saying see there it is. the correlation is the qu quation that's. crazy uh oh you were cut it's okay you. can cut me off that's fine my only.

question to you. is you're saying that the thing that is. preventing you from wanting to be. codependent on a man actually engage in. this marriage totally giving yourself. because I I've become disillusioned with. the state of tradcons and I think. they're hoax no you don't think it's. you're you're picking on tradcon because. you you think that they're your. ideological opponents I don't think they. are I don't think so if that was the. case I wouldn't date them I well I I. think that if one identifies as a. liberal feminist then necessarily tra. tradcons are your ideological foes I I.

completely. dise simar uh perceptions of hookup. culture and a lot of things depending on. the sect of feminism I am I actually. find way more common ground with uh. conservative men than liberal men I like. that's fabulous but but you think. they're not living up to it okay well. then you know find I think they. overcorrect they they will vouch that. they don't watch porn they're going to. be like you know what I mean they the. more they talk about how disgusted they. are by porn the more like I am to find. out that it turns out that they are. watching por and like I said I found. that at like the micro anecdotal level. of my dating life and then also at the. macro level just based on statistics.

wait you object to your partner watching. pornography um it wouldn't be ideal yes. but you you my understanding is you. don't do any nudity in your only fans. content but you wait you have an only. fans too yeah she doesn't she are you. kidding me I've been. oh man I thought you strung me along so. well and now you're going to pull the. rug hold on you're the one who's trying. to entice these men to to look at this. stuff and and then you're trying to put. all of the blame on them my only fans I.

started a year ago I'm talking about I. this is why I became disillusioned and. pink pilled is because I did everything. right I was a virgin all through college. I'm still a virgin I do all these things. I date these Christian conservatives. they talk about waiting till marriage. they talk about going to church every. Sunday porn addicts all of them yeah. yeah no look I I don't doubt that porn. addict is totally prevent and if they're. not watching porn they're they're. following Instagram models they're going. to Hooters it's mostly conservative men. conservative men that I'd go on dates. with they'd have these like posters of. like nude play girls and stuff like that. like Playboy bunnies and stuff and. that's are you dating like 65-year-old.

men what are you talking about Playboy. it's more of these conservative like. Midwestern boys who like have that type. of. paraphernalia more hold on now are we. talking to their are we talking about. like a pinup thing in your garage from. the' 40s or are we talking about like. actual porn addiction where people are. are it does. all the same I'm just saying that like. why why why is going to Hooter is more. acceptable why can't I throw my chips in. wait one question so but you you do make. only fans content so I guess how do you. reconcile that with objecting to your. partner watching that sort of content.

but you also produce that kind of. content I don't necessar well go ahead. go ahead I mean I just think it's funny. because always on these red pill shows. they'll talk men will get on here and be. like yes I watch porn but I wouldn't. date a porn star so what's the issue. you're saying I do porn but I wouldn't. date a guy watches it yes because I'll. tell you why if you actually look at. pair bonding watching porn does affect. your neurochemistry and your pair. bonding me being lusted after does not. affect my neurochemistry or my parness. but you're enticing them to do it like I. I'm I'm maybe the least judgmental. person on the right when it comes to.

this stuff because all all sin and fall. short of the glory of God but you you. are part of the problem and you're. you're the the thing that you're envey. against is something that you are. encouraging as and profiting from as you. encourage it that's only if you if you. consider lusting to only exist within. pornography I think even if my boyfriend. were lusting after like 18-year-olds. like a cashier at a grocery store I. would think that's just as wrong as. watching pornography but and pornography. in I'm not inflam way even if I didn't. do pornography and I was just an. attractive woman that doesn't mean I'm.

enticing Men by putting on makeup every. day it's up to them not L after putting. on a little bit of rouge is going to be. less exciting to a man than doing. pornography I don't know if you've heard. JP talked about it he says women put. blush to simulate sexual orgasm in their. face and you want to get into female. coalitions there's a very interesting. anthropological point to that very thing. you've just said but clearly there are. gradations also a 1940s pinup poster and. hardcore porn on the Internet one is. going to excite one more than the other.

yes and if we're talking gradations and. where I Fall In Those gradations is. probably on the more mild side I don't. do nuded content but um you don't do. nude content what is only fans I thought. only fans content if anyone wants to. check it out you can post whatever you. want cardi B just gets and is one of the. top 10 creators but um I mean regardless. like I said even if I did do nude. content even if I did necessarily like. touch myself on camera that doesn't. affect my neurochemistry in terms of. pair bonding but a man men you're do. you're you're doing something bad to.

these men and then complaining that the. men are bad well that doesn't follow cuz. if I wore a bikini and went to the beach. that doesn't mean that it's my fault. then if my boyfriend checks out women. and just stares at them on the beach. like I'm not respons wom should be. more yeah I do I do think they should I. don't think most people would describe. to that I don't think most people would. say that if I wear a bikini on the beach. that means I'm a hypocrite if I say I. don't want my boyfriend just ogling. women at the beach all the time and I. think that would make an improper you're. you're not really complaining about men. who go to the beach and maybe take a. little Gander down the down the shore. you are specifically complaining about.

men who look at pornography no I didn't. that's why I brought up vs Angel shows. that's why I brought up Hooters that's. why I brought up the posters secret why. would I bring up all these things if the. threshold for me was just pornography. that's why I walked it back and said all. these other things you did walk it back. included these other things which I. think are totally legitimate but you. know there are plenty of things that I. think are bad and and plenty of sins. that I fall into like all the time right. but I I don't I don't complain about. them being bad while actively promoting. them that there's no cognitive.

dissonance there no I think it's bad if. you're in a relationship and you're. lying to your partner and saying I don't. watch porn and then you do it and then. you consume it that doesn't mean I think. that doesn't mean I think watching porn. is morally bad on its own if I want that. that's why same reason I said I don't. think necessarily dating women is bad. but if I was married to a man then yes I. would say him dating other women is bad. do mean I'm condemning dating in general. so you're you're coming back to the same. thing that you said about abortion which. is I would never do it but I'm not going.

to say it's wrong for no I think once. you're in a relationship there are. certain activities that you should not. do because such as dating other women so. what if what if your partner says that. it's okay to do that what do you mean I. would find someone who has moral. congruence to me right but I'm say. you're you're saying if you're in a. relationship you shouldn't date other. women but what if not you but some guy. were dating some girl and the dating you. you really oh no and you would say okay. it's fine if you date other women would. you say that's then you then you would. say in that relationship it is fine to. sleep with other women or no like are.

you asking me do I have objective moral. guidelines for what dating should look. like. yeah um. H I think I think if your goal is to. have the most optimal marriage there's. lots of things you should not do such as. I think should have a low body count if. you want to optimize you know longevity. of marriage I don't think you should. watch porn at the same time I don't like. that it stops at just those two things. like I think those are just the two. things we use to shame women and try to. force them into modesty but there's. other things for instance like you. shouldn't even cohabitate with your. boyfriend before marriage even if you're.

not sleeping together if you technically. want to increase your chances of. longevity and even once why shouldn't. you cohabitate it's not about shouldn't. it I'm I'm saying it more why would you. discourage cohabitating it's not about. discouraging that's why I'm saying I'm. not moralizing whatever you just said. about coab why are you saying if your. aim is to have the longest most. healthiest most happiest marriage. possible statistically speaking not. having previous sexual partners not. living together before marriage will. optimize those things that doesn't mean. I'm moralizing it same way again why we. cohabitating because it's an important. point on what we were just talking about. um you desensitize you kind of shore up.

on wely duties before actually getting. wife it gives the guy this incentive. where he doesn't have to you know buy. the cow because he's getting the milk. for free all that but um that. actually pans out statistically but my. point is we talk and because it's. enticing right because it's tempting. you're not going to cohabitate and not. sleep together that's not true you think. you could cohabitate and not sleep. together I've done it yeah really yeah. wow was the man a. homosexual are you saying he's going to. transgress my barriers if I'm like don't. me no I think he would find it I. think he would move out before he would.

deal with that regardless I'm just. saying there are certain things that. will optimize your marriage for instance. even once you're married if you guys. don't sleep in the same bed that will. actually lead to a stronger marriage. that doesn't mean I necessarily. prescribe it it just depends what are. these variables that you want to add. into your relationship to strengthen it. M so it's not that I would say a guy. shouldn't necessarily watch porn if his. girlfriend's okay with it same way again. technically I wouldn't prescribe don't. sleep in the same bed together even. though that could also disaffect your. marriage you've come to so many so many. of the right moral conclusions but you. just don't want to take credit for them.

you don't want to say that they're true. you just want to say that you just. accidentally you to ask this you. probably prescribe that people don't. have premarital sex right yeah I would. iin marriage no I listen I was an. atheist for 10 years I did a lot of a. lot of naughty things. okay and you would probably prescribe. that people don't watch pornography in. marriage yes and the reason being that. that would disaffect your chances of. marital success and happiness no I I. don't as we were talking about earlier. on ethics I don't view ethics from the. perspective of consequences I View eth. From perspective of good so they're kind.

of hand in hand that's but I don't I. don't uh consider uh means in light of. ends I don't know I don't think that. good ends would justify immoral means. what I'm saying is that actions are good. or bad depending on the action and and. more importantly actually on the. character of virtue of of the the person. who is acting in them so the way that I. would ascertain what's good or bad is uh. is according to Virtue not according to. some weird calculation of like. statistics say I'm going to be married. longer or whatever final thought from.

the both of you on this go go ahead I. was just going to say well statistically. speaking couples are happier together. when they don't sleep in the same bed. would you not prescribe that then. because there's no virtue tied to it. that's more no there's a lot of virtue. tied to to modesty and restraint and. waiting until marriage know that's not. what I meant even once you're married. you'll have a more successful marriage. statistically speaking if you don't. sleep in the same bed as your that's. very aristocratic I'm too middle class. to do that but but yeah the the. aristocratic classes sleep in different. beds I guess my point was that people. pick and choose what level of parabon.

they want to create with their partner. whether it's not watching pornography. having premarital sex and then not. sleeping in the same bed I'm skeptical. that you actually have more marital. satisfaction if you don't sleep in the. same bed but the British Royals have. been doing it for a long time and they. all cheat on each other I guess so right. I guess what I was trying to outline. that there's a lot of move on we have. seberg here no wage Gap it's an earnings. Gap the 77 cents to the dollar stat is a. labor stat that took total earnings by. each sex divided by total workers. feminism tends to look only until proof. of victimhood is found hey seberg thank.

you man appreciate it actually the and. to come back to my point I was actually. trying to make earlier asking all of you. if you would prefer a man to pay on the. first date couldn't it be the case I. mean even if we remove the fact that for. example men tend to work more hours. they're more likely to relocate for work. they're more likely to work hazardous. hazardous jobs and there's a whole bunch. of other variables um given the answers. that you provided to my question about. if you would prefer a man to pay for the. first date let's say let's assume that.

somewhere between 30 to 50% of women. also hold that it might be more couldn't. it be fair to say that just on that sole. thing that. sole the the sole thing that women. prefer men to be providers or prefer men. to pay on that first date wouldn't that. be enough of a mating pressure of a. mating force to be a stronger motivating. factor for men to occupy higher. positions of or positions of higher. status positions that pay more. money as compared whereas women don't.

have that corresponding mating pressure. men are really not having a putting a. pressure on women to pay for first dates. for example what is it that's certainly. possible the problem that I think most. feminists would point out is that when. it does come to the women who are. putting that self- pressure whatever um. performing highly trying to get like. that next pay raise promotion um when it. comes to studies that do like double. blind um who try to like account for. other factors they're still not being.

picked because of gender bias that's a. problem it's not necessarily that men. want to get these higher positions of. power that's that to me that's not a. problem it's a problem is that if we. start making all things equal women are. still being punished for it then that's. weird to me it's very difficult to make. all things equal so even you know even. when you drill down and I'll just take. those statistics for what they're worth. uh still if you have a a society that um. gives an advantage to women as a matter. of say affirmative action or some Dei.

policy or and you know and and that. begins very early on it begins in high. school and then it goes on to college. and then maybe you get into maybe get a. little bonus on your sat and then maybe. you get into the medical school because. we want more women they're. underrepresented in the field and and. then maybe the firm looks at you or the. medical office and says well I don't. know that this woman she's got she went. she graduated college but she didn't. graduate as good a college as this man. or she did graduate the same College as. the man but I don't know that she really. deserved it you know that I'm not saying. that's just exactly but I I think they. they are at least justified in that.

prejudice because we got a whole system. right now that says that if you're a. woman you get bonus points and this is. the I mean Clarence Thomas has written. about this extensively he says I I had a. trouble getting job after graduating. Yale law school Yale law school is the. best school in the country I'm Clarence. Thomas I'm like one of the greatest uh. judges in in American history uh but he. couldn't do it because he was black and. they assumed he was an affirmative. action case yeah last sorry just to move. on we only have a few more minutes here. five 10 more minutes then we're going to. wrap up this came up earlier in the. conversation I believe I said we'd get.

back to it uh so pixie I know you've. kind of had some thoughts on this on. your previous appearances uh you know. when it comes to feminism obviously. that's typically advocacy for equality. advocacy for women um I think it's. important when we're talking about that. to again Define our terms so um as a nod. to the Daily wi and Matt Walsh what is a. woman you're GNA hate me for this one. Michael but um before I have Michael. respond to you I I want all of you to.

respond why we have pixie go then far. then and then Jasmine go ahead um a. woman is a person who acts and is. perceived as our societal perception of. a woman that's at least half of. it far. um I'd like to do more research on this. topic before publicizing an opinion Vito. are you joking that's really your answer. that is my answer as of now hey come on. so even if you couldn't even if you're. not going to reason about it let's just.

talk from your own personal prejudices. and stuff what do you come on just. between us gals just between US just. between us gals that's here we can talk. after the show but I like to. thff wants you to I like to thoroughly. think out my opinions before publicizing. them and platforming them come on you. don't have a hunch I bet you have a. hunch of I I have a hunch but doesn't. mean I want to platform my hunches you. okay too dangerous to venture an answer. these days okay have a hunch yeah uh I. would take kind of Pixie view I think. women can be I don't think trans women.

and biological women are the same but I. don't think trans women are men either. like there you know you can have an. umbrella term for women and have both. trans women and biological women under. it without realizing that without also. saying that they're exactly the same and. they have all the same issues and. everything's the same if they're neither. men nor women women what are they they. are women I said but they're I would say. they're a part of the umbrella of wom. okay not a part of the umbrella of man. yeah they are because they're biological. men so they're both you can be a trans. man or a biological man or you can be a. a transom woman and a biological woman. so depending on how you're looking at it.

if you're looking at biology yeah. they're not the same can you though can. your identity be different you know your. metaphysical identity be different from. your biological identity can definitely. be different than your social identity. how easy um. when this goes back to the whole. chromosomes argument but like you didn't. check any of our chromosomes or biology. before calling us a woman right which. kind of I think there are enough. indicators enough indicators but you. base those indicators on like appearance. so obviously perception you know you.

look like women you walk like women you. smell like women I I think you're women. that's her point is a performance and. you're basing off the secondary sex. characteristics is what you're basing. them on and people can change their. secondary sex yeah your bodies is what. I'm basing it on which you can change. that but you but I not not sure that you. can actually because I think what's. what's here at the basis of it is a. gnostic idea that you're you can. separate your soul and your body and I. know we don't like to use the word Soul. anymore so we'll say your identity man. or whatever but that you can separate. that from your body and I just don't. think you can I think a woman is the.

sort of person who isn't a man I think. that's the basic definition of a woman. what's a man then a man is the sort of. person who isn't a woman what how did. you know we were women because you look. like women okay and you sound like women. and when I talk to you you give the. impression that you're women so if a. really good passing transwoman is here. and you were mistaken then I would be. mistaken but he would not be a woman no. but my. point looking at is secondary sex. characteristics and those are things. that people can those are the signs. that oh this is all men and women and.

like but I'm not saying the signs are. synonymous with their sex I'm saying the. signs are signs and the signs symbolize. something but there is something to say. about somebody that like like you said. walks talks looks like a woman and to. say that this is now 100% a man 100 no. there's you have to say no he would be. he would be per Performing as a woman. and he might even fool me depending on. how much surgery he socially be a woman. he he would be he would try to do that. but I I don't think Society should. recognize those TR he would succeed to.

the point you don't even realize usually. you do realize is the thing I like I. know they convince themselves that they. really yeah but they you know I've met. plenty of transexuals cuz they protest. my speeches and they uh usually you can. tell because again it gets to what we're. talking about the very top of this. debate which was the the question of. human nature right I think me and Old. Uncle Aristotle believe that you're. you're a body and a soul together I'm. not just my soul trapped in a useless. body I'm not just my body without a soul.

or totally separated from my soul I. think I'm a soul and a and a and a body. together so my body gives me much of my. sex it to use the technical term it's an. Inseparable accident of the individual. uh I and and I think that pertains to my. whole person CU you can't separate those. two for the whole of my life if you. change can can men get pregnant can men. get pregnant not biological men okay. yeah trans men can okay yeah can we. really divide men up like that like I'm.

a biological man but I'm a spiritual. woman and I'm a I mean we do um what is. it we do classifications um within. gender all the time black women white. women for example that would be racial. yeah no but that's. within the scope of women you're still. saying oh there there's women who are. black there's women who are not black. there are women who have had essay. experiences there's women who haven't. had experiences race is real though it's. actually uh more difficult to pin down. than sexual difference but it's real.

yeah they're different races sure so you. can black people and white people are. different races and men and women are. different Sexes last thing on oh sorry. one can't become the other except in the. case of Michael Jackson who he got the. closest but he was still I think he was. still a black guy wasn't that V Lia. that that's what he said that's what he. said I don't know if I believe Michael. Jackson cuz he was actually you um stum. I don't want to say stumbled cuz that's. condescending but whatever you stumbled. onto something quite interesting I'm. glad I did because the whole idea is. that when it comes like the notion of.

race um the reason why Michael Jackson. is was technically never white he was. always black is because we treat race as. like a historical um a historical. question basically what we're asking. when we ask somebody what's your race is. basically what is your ancestry like. what got you here to be here now versus. sex where or gender specifically where. we treat at more of a societal. conception like what are you performing. as yeah I don't treat it that way at all. and I think that sexual I mean I think. racial difference is real the reason. Michael Jackson's black is because he. did Thriller you know I don't think you.

can't really change your race Rachel. doll has all tried and she ruined her. life because of it uh but if you could I. mean I'm kind of swarthy right you might. think I'm like Arabic or Mexican or. something even though I'm Italian and. waspy I don't know waspy what you see in. the Mayflower cigar actually uh but I. certainly couldn't change my sex because. the the difference between a black guy. and a white guy I'm not saying there are. not differences that there are physical. differences there are cultural. differences sure maybe but those. differences are nothing compared to the. difference between a man and a. woman okay the point is I think what.

we're trying to get at here is that when. it comes to like our conception of sex. versus gender um we base our conception. of gender on how Dustin wasburn donated. $200 Michael with your talk and logic. about Sol and body do you believe it's. possible for the wrong soul to be placed. in the wrong body no because I I think. following Old Uncle St Thomas ainus that. the the sex derives mostly from the body. so it's it would be incoherent to say uh. that the the soul is another sex because.

if the soul were a different sex the. soul being the substantial form of the. body it would mean that men and women. are different species and men and women. have a lot of differences but we're not. why did God create for Dustin thank you. last thing on this um and I think pixie. you've had on your previous appearances. you've maybe had thoughts on this and I. think feminists tend to differ on this. last topic that we're going to hit on uh. when it comes to the trans discussion. Sports um do you think that there should. be. separation what are your thoughts on uh.

for example trans women uh trans women. participating in women's sports yeah so. I think um what I've currently seen of. the data and studies is that even after. taking hormones and St and there might. still be advantages in certain ways so. to me it would be like it's a. theoretical question like I would have. to have more data but basically if it. seems that some of like these biological. advantages are like too high or it. cannot be um mitigated enough through.

the use of hormones and such then yeah. it would be too much of an unfair. Advantage versus um if the data shows. otherwise and it's like no actually it. is like mitigated well enough so that's. my general stance aren't we just all. slaves to like the data you know it's. like the if the study shows love the. data yeah maybe but the the data are so. manipulated I mean social scientific. data they're in a major replication. crisis well if it wasn't the scientific. method is our best way to get to the. truth is it I'm not sure about that I. would say so so I think it's the best we. have otherwise we just have our.

anecdotes and our feelings what look I'm. I'm all for empirical scientific. analyses of the things that that it can. measure but but those are all physical. things and what we're talking about here. is deeper than a physical thing right. we're talk because we're we're not mere. flesh I don't think I don't think think. we're MH this is where we disagree cuz. we think that you think you're just. flesh no no no we disagree on whether. like you're like oh like the issue here. isn't the data the data on whether this. would be unfair to women is what I care. about well because if it wasn't then I. would say yeah they do but the data on. whether this is unfair to women are not.

going to come from some like dork. Economist that those data are going to. come from the reality of the different. it's going to come from natural. scientists certainly it's going to come. from uh people who have an understanding. of what human nature is and what Justice. is human nature debate I think this is. about does your muscle mass give you an. advantage and if you take hormones it. seems to not like you said reverse all. of the advantages that you have how does. a scientific study conclude something. about fairness or Justice how do you. measure justice under jump to that.

conclusion but we use their conclusions. to then make our opinion oh you're. saying your so you would look at a. scientific survey and say wow that big. Husky dude who ran who swam against the. women turns out he was a lot faster than. all those little women and therefore I. conclude that men competing against. women in a women's sport is unjust no. what you should do you should be like. hey okay how do we realize if like okay. I don't know should uh trans women. compete with real women H I don't know. do they have an unfair Advantage by I. love that you slipped there and you said. real women well biological women okay.

biologic you just accidentally said what. we all yeah I would agree with that yeah. biological women You could argue are. real women but that doesn't mean which. which implies that the trans women are. not really under the category they're C. of biological women and so you just said. they're not C of real well you can harp. on that my point here is that I think. it's I'm I'm not trying to get you I'm. just trying to point out you you the. point I'm trying to make is if I'm. trying to figure out the answer to this. question and the question for me is not. what is natural or what is cath. Catholicism say it's is this unfair to.

have trans women compete with real women. well I want to know and the way to know. that is to look at the science not to. just look at somebody how do you know. what's fair and what's not fair in. sports to have an unfair advantage and. that you could UNF Things Are. you have to compare like right like you. would have to see okay if you this is. why they've banned certain drugs I don't. know anything about sports I'm assuming. all this I'm just saying how do you know. what fairness is we all have I would say. that the only way you really know how. fairness is is that we all have kind of. like a you know we have a feeling about.

it that's all I can say is it a feeling. or is it is it a reasonable conscience I. you can compare averages um You can. compare averages yeah but also the hunch. the the even the idea that we all want. things to be fair is like an. evolutionary in my opinion just thing. that we all kind of Michael Phelps is a. faster swimmer Michael Phelps is a. faster swimmer than some guy we've never. heard of he he does he have an unfair. advantage over the guy we never heard of. they have different average swimming. times is the is the average swimming. time going to imply something about. fairness and Justice no you need.

something else to to come to a. conclusion about Justice and fairness. and it's not going to be scientific it's. going to be philosophical ultimately. philosop quick quick quick last last. points go ahead pixie I'm going to say I. do think that comparing averages um does. give us greater inside what's like. fairness or not so for example um. Michael Phelps competing um with other. Olympic swimmers is much more fair than. Michael Phelps competing against like a. completely average swimmer so obviously. there's something to be said about. people within like the same leagues or. performing around the same level and.

that's why we have like golden versus. bronze versus like silver categories. well no that that would just be awards. for the no but I'm saying like like. sorry I should have said division one. division two division three sure so. you're saying people who are of the same. type it would be fair for the people of. the same type to compete against each. other but we've already established that. trans women and real women are not of. the same type so they shouldn't compete. against each other that's for about the. averages that's why we're also saying. that when it comes to like hormones or. certain supplements um if the theide. gets bridged enough then it might open.

to new discussion or different. discussion so if you pum yourself full. of enough hormones then the transom who. is not a real woman could become a real. woman it's not about being a real woman. because as we said before these are not. just these are not just matters of the. flesh as you stated for um a lot of this. is about societal perception of what a. woman is and that goes back to like. certain actions and certain looks so in. our day-to-day life that's what we rely. we rely the concept of women on actions. and looks I I yeah but I I just guess I. wouldn't trust Society more than I would.

trust objective truth you know I I I. think that uh some 50 million Frenchmen. can be wrong I think that actually the. the majority of people how do you think. what's the best way to arrive at. objective truth I wish we could go there. unfortun. we are running what's that we'd have. five more hours yeah um we do have to uh. wrap up here pretty soon I do want to. give you guys if you want um make a. brief final thought or closing statement. and uh before you guys do that though do. know that we are in about an hour we.

will be live again uh with our dating. talk at about 5:00 P p.m. Pacific but if. you guys want I'd like to open it up to. uh you guys to make some closing. statements if you'd like so ladies first. ladies first uh I guess I'll just say. what I was going to say yeah what our. our principles on fairness are it is a. philosophical question but you could say. okay the principle here is we want to. make sure that nobody has a really big. unfair advantage to another person and. then you use science and data because. that is better than anecdotal evidence. we have levels of evidence that are. stronger and weaker and we want.

philosoph to inform that's my point yeah. okay that would be and thank you for. coming you're You're great and it was. really fun get out here yeah and she was. great too I think she won. but okay I guess my general closing. statements are thoughts I'm I'm going to. take it out with the Trans debate right. now um I do wish that we went more a. little bit about like the nature versus. nure of women and men um I do think that. there is something to be said that there. has had to be like consistent laws in. place um that prevent women from like. getting a bank account U from being able. to pursue higher care like higher.

education um being able to get certain. jobs I think that speaks to this idea. that there is more of a sociological. component than a biological component of. why women haven't necessarily like been. as interested in finances or other. fields as such um so that's where I. stand when it comes to like the nature. versus nurture stuff of things I think. things sometimes are greatly exaggerated. when it comes to women's natural. proclivities and not thanks for. coming um before the show you said it's. morally depraved to be a Munch do you. stand by that statement oh yeah we were.

discussing the previous episode I. learned a lot of jargon I learned 304s. right I learned uh munch I learned there. were a few do you remember the other. ones I learned luckily I've forgotten. it just you raised you raised the. question of you know is is it confused. me because you have no problem. simulating felatio right next to. you Sim all I would say is a simulation. is very different from the actual act. and I think that you condemn this act I.

certainly condemn this act yes this is. deeply depraved her existence no no not. her existence felicio oh yeah I think. that sex ought to be turned to proper. ends which are open to life wait what. yeah it it's AIG. sometimes a cigar is just a cigar was. asking about it's not yeah I think sex. should be turned to proper end yeah. that's your closing is that about my. preferen he said we get into we didn't. do it so I was CU as my closing. statement yeah that's okay now with that.

image in my head I guess my closing. statement would. be the the point that you brought up. that uh you know we haven't talked about. the nature versus nurture and why women. don't go into Finance as much and why. they don't do this and why they don't do. that and women were barred by law and. custom from having certain financial. responsibilities and from voting even we. even talk about voting and I guess my. question with all of that is if in some. unforeseen future women really all want. to take over Wall Street and and you. know there were some women on Wall. Street but generally not that many and. if they really want to do that uh okay.

all right I guess I just I don't see any. particular good in that even if I don't. see bad. necessarily and I'm not saying I don't. but I don't see any particular good why. do I care why do I want some woman to. work on Wall Street why do I care why. even you you know one brings up the vote. I I like voting I guess but it's just I. vote because I want as an instrument to. have good government if you told me. right now Michael the Millennials lose. their right to vote and you're going to. get Millennials are big Libs anyway and. you're going to get more conservatives.

I'd say okay here's my right to vote I. don't really care I mean I just think. there are all sorts of forms of good. government we want government to do good. and avoid evil so uh you know before. feminism we had a far greater focus on. the family and family cohesion and a. view of the sexist that was. complimentary and not merely commercial. and not you know we talked about the. excesses of capitalism I'm with you girl. I totally agree you've got to. circumscribe capitalism and uh we had. views of the Sexes that were not um at. each other's loggerheads you know these.

stupid men who are just you know vicious. and who aren't up to your standards yeah. they probably aren't up to your. standards I agree we and we have to grow. and help edify one another and ideally. you know help each other get to heaven. but at least have good lives here and. have kids and you know I totally agree. with all of that uh but that that. requires not just thinking that. feminism's gone too far that requires. recognizing that feminism like gets it. wrong at the very beginning like the. first lady who ever was a feminist got. it wrong and so I think that uh you know. we we need.

to if you if you want to run away from. natural roles be my guest I don't really. care do what you want to do but but we. need to recognize that women ought to be. allowed and our economy doesn't. currently allow it to pursue those. natural roles and for that maybe that. for a woman means she's going to raise. kids and she's going to cook and maybe. she will be barefoot and pregnant in the. kitchen and for men maybe that means. they're going to go out and they're. going to work in an office and they're. going to come home on a nice Saturday. night and they're going to smoke a. Mayflower Cigar by going to Mayflower.

cigars.com and ordering them I think. they're back in stock but you have to be. 21 years old or older to order and some. exclusions May. apply all. right okay there you go. can we plug our if you Jasmine Jafar me. what's that can we plug our offs if you. pluged to his. company oh I was that a plug I was just. I was waxing philosophic we actually. only allow tobacco related plugs. unfortunately so I mean if if you guys.

have cigarellos or cigarette brand you'd. like to plug then I I think M oh there. you have it there it is mayf okay oh. nice we pull my only F yeah well I'm not. sure about that one but all right guys. um thank you for tuning in uh everybody. appreciate it thank you to the wonderful. panel here appreciate you guys coming as. previously mentioned we will be live in. about another 45 minutes with our dating. talk episode uh Michael NES will be on. that so um are you sticking around uh I.

we have a different panel for that. totally different. panel if any of them flake maybe we can. uh Wrangle in one of the one of the gals. here so uh thank you to everyone who. tuned in and uh yes we will be live. again at 5:00 p.m. Pacific thank you. again to the panel 07s in the chat we'll. be live again stay tuned 45 about 45. minutes thank you okay bye. bye.