Destiny vs. Trent Horn ABORTION Debate | Whatever Debates #2

we are live welcome to a special debate. edition of the whatever podcast I am. your host and moderator Brian Atlas a. few quick announcements before the show. begins this podcast is viewer supported. heavy YouTube demonetization so please. consider donating through streamlabs. instead of soup chatting as YouTube. takes a 30 cut the streamlabs link is in. the description basically if you Super. Chat 100 YouTube takes 30 if you donate. 100 streamlabs only takes three. donations and super chats for this. special episode will be ten dollars and. up will be displayed in stream overlay.

donations in super chats 50 and up will. be read answered at intervals throughout. the show if you want to interact nearly. instantly with us and weigh in on the. debate live consider sending a TTS. text-to-speech message uh we have bumped. that just for the sake of a flowing. conversation to uh. 199 and up triggers TTS TTS is via. streamlabs only so if any of you cycos. really want to weigh in on the. discussion please see the description. for all triggers in full details without. further Ado I am joined today by Destiny.

famous internet personality live. streamer and political commentator who. will be arguing the pro-choice side or. as he prefers the pro-abortion side and. we have Trent horn Trent earned master's. degrees in the fields of theology. philosophy and bioethics Trent is an. adjunct professor of apologetics at Holy. Apostles college and he's the author of. nine books Trent will be arguing the. pro-life side.

thank you guys for joining me appreciate. it I think a good jumping off point for. each of you if and if any of you wish to. uh further introduce yourselves. otherwise we can just get right in what. is your basic stance on abortion in. Destiny why don't we have you start. yeah so I think that the typical. pro-life argument is the idea that we. say that life begins at the moment. conception I believe that there is some. kind of life that begins at the moment. of conception but the thing that we are. interested in protecting is the human. conscious experience whenever we talk. about a person we're not usually talking.

about a body or a collection of cells. we're talking about some other conscious. sentient being whenever we're talking. about pain suffering harm Happiness joy. any of these emotions we're usually. talking about somebody that can. experience them as such when we look at. the end of life the instructive moment. is when the person no longer has or is. capable of having a conscious experience. so I think when we look at the beginning. of Life we should also start at the same. point which is when that conscious. experience forms so my argument is. abortion should be illegal at the moment. that the fetus is capable of having all. of the parts communicating that can.

deploy subconscious experience which. I've read is anywhere from 20 to 28. weeks so legally I say probably at about. 20 weeks would be the sake point to. start protecting that person that's now. developed in the womb. all right. right and so my position would be that. your value comes not from what you can. do but from what you are that human. beings acquire and lose different. abilities throughout their existence and. many of our abilities are also shared by. non-human beings that don't have a right. to life like when it comes to. Consciousness there are animals that.

exhibit levels of consciousness beyond. what many humans exhibit like infants. for example there are many non-human. animals more conscious than them so I. don't think that it's Consciousness that. makes us valuable what makes us valuable. is that we're members of a kind of a. rational kind and every member of that. kind has equal intrinsic value so I just. think that every human being has equal. rights equal dignity and that this. phrase every human being would include. every member of the human species so.

that begins at fertilization and then. that would end when someone dies when. their body parts no longer function. together as a whole so when their body. parts you begin to decompose when you're. body starts to fall apart that's when. you stop existing you start existing. when your body parts work together to. allow you to grow and develop which. biologists would agree happens at. fertilization so that would be the. pro-life anti-abortion position and then. I guess a little thing on my background. too. I also host a podcast called the Council.

of Trent c-o-u-n-s-el uh if you're. Catholic could get the joke and that's. available on YouTube you'll want to go. and check that out. okay rock and roll. um and we have the everyone's links are. in the description I think we have your. podcast linked in the uh description as. well so uh just a point of clarification. for Destiny. um at what point because I know I think. you have you have a time limit on it or. not a time limit but you don't think. abortion should occur after when or how. long I'd say legislatively I'd say 20.

weeks okay. okay gotcha and uh. is that for you is there any. circumstance where abortion is Justified. well I would say that I would agree with. states that have laws that allow you to. use medical interventions to protect the. life of the woman so I believe that we. should treat unborn human beings human. fetuses human embryos like we would. treat born human beings and there can be. cases where if a born human being even. an innocent born human being threatens.

the life of another innocent born human. being like if you know somebody their. drink gets spiked at a party and they go. crazy and they grab a gun or they're. going to shoot people you might have to. use lethal Force to protect other people. but I believe that most abortions are. not meant they're not meant to protect. someone's life. they instead are meant to protect. elements of one's lifestyle I mean to. put it crudely but social reasons. economic reasons uh I just I think just. as we don't kill toddlers just because. they might be in a difficult situation.

like their mom the dad's left mom lost. her job we don't kill toddlers in a. really bad situation to try to make it. better we shouldn't do the same to. unborn human beings if they're if they. have the same value as a toddler does. okay got it so. I think a good another good jumping off. point is when do you each believe that. personhood. begins. between that 20 to 28 week Point.

whenever the there's a part where all of. the structures in the brain are in place. and then they begin to communicate with. each other such that you would have some. conscious experience I would say that's. your personhood okay. yeah and I would say that personhood. though you don't necessarily what's. interesting about the pro-life position. is you don't have to believe. a human embryo or human fetus is a. person to begin against abortion there's. actually multiple arguments against to. be against abortion now I think that all. uh human beings all living human beings. are persons now they might be injured so.

they might be disabled persons who. you know can't function rationally or. they might be in a coma they might be. have Alzheimer's or dementia but I think. every human being is a person but even. if you didn't believe The Unborn were. persons you can even sidestep the. personhood question because you could. ask this question why is death bad why. is it bad to cause the death of an. infant or the death of you or me but not. bad most people agree it's not bad to. cause the death of like a pig even.

vegans don't want to usually don't treat. the death of a human infant like the. death of a pig so why is death bad I. think most people agree that death is. bad because it's it's deprivational it. deprives us of something it's bad when. humans die not because they have. necessarily a desire to live animals. don't like infants don't have that but. what makes death bad for humans is it. deprives a human of unique experiences. like if an infant dies they lose a. future like ours uh that's why it's so.

tragic when an infant dies it also makes. sense why it's sad but not as tragic if. like a 99 year old dies because they. don't have as much of a future. so then it would follow and then of. course the reason we you know have pork. chops and burgers or at least don't. treat them as the same as killing humans. because animals don't have a future like. ours so if that's what makes killing so. wrong well human embryos and human. fetuses they do have that even if you're. not consciously aware of it they have. that and killing them deprives them of. that really valuable thing and so that's.

why another way to think of abortion. being wrong even if you don't have the. personhood element there. do you have a response or. do you find that when you use that. argument of future experience can you. run into trouble with people challenging. you that that future experience might be. horrible enough such that it could. actually justify an abortion so for. instance let's say in the case of like I. think Tay sex disease is a really rough. one where I think children can die I. think often for the age of five right. right um if your defense uh abortion is. bad because it's depriving somebody of a. future experience I think baked into.

that assumption is that the future. experience is on a whole like a net. positive right right so doesn't that. kind of make your point that point like. conditional on a positive future. experience which would justify the. pro-choice argument of you should abort. people that might end up in horrible. circumstances well I think that the. future like ours argument I considered a. secondary argument for my position so it. may not show I agree with you that it. doesn't show that all killing is wrong. like if your boss is dying of a heart. attack and you shoot him like you don't. really deprive him of a valuable future.

but it was still wrong for you to do. that you know so I don't think that it. shows all killing is wrong but I think. it shows many many acts of Killing In. general are wrong and there are far more. healthy unborn children or even infants. for example like you might miss the Tay. Sachs diagnosis and now you have an. infant who has Tay Sachs but most people. even in that case most people wouldn't. directly kill that infant who they know. is going to die in a few years so there. I think the other argument would be well.

all human beings have this intrinsic. value they're all persons due respect. even if they might be disabled or dying. but I think that the future like ours. argument has the benefit of explaining. why the vast majority of human killings. are wrong but also why it's not wrong to. kill animals even if you have a pretty. smart animal like pigs are pretty smart. they can play video games to earn treats. they can they can beat a lot of infants. at things but we turn pigs into pork. chops we don't do that to infants and I.

think only of the future like ours. argument or the fact that just humans. are persons by their nature. can explain that if we go with your view. that well it's Consciousness that. matters. um I don't think it works and if you. bracket it to say oh I'm talking about. human consciousness and I think it gets. arbitrary. I I would agree to some extent that it. gets arbitrary but arbitrary and only. the ultimately skeptical sense of like. all morality absent a religious. justification can arguably be arbitrary.

so uh I can half agree with you there. but I I think we both probably agree. that the human conscious experiences. significantly altered or different than. the animal conscious experience. um I have had some people bring up the. argument that like well if you're. defending conscious experience what. about conscious experience of pigs or. dogs uh you know a two-year-old dog. might have more of a conscious. experience than a six-month-old or six. week old child right. um my understanding of human development. doesn't happen that way I don't think. that we at like uh six months in the. womb that we have like a lizard. Consciousness and then we're born and we.

have like a horse Consciousness and then. we're like one years old and we have. like a primate Consciousness and then it. becomes like a human consciousness my. assumption is once all the parts are in. place. um you have to gather kind of these uh. these quality of these experiences in. life you see things you experience. things and your mind kind of grows but. the development is done now it's just. the acquisition of experience and then. kind of like the connected neurons and. everything I don't think that our. conscious experience significantly. changes such that it's evolving from. like one animal to the next I think. these are probably all.

stages of like human conscious. experience and then I would go back to. um it sounded like you kind of said. earlier that there's kind of this like. um ontological category of like human. and then at all stages you protect that. human thing from fetus to end of. metabolic activity and I would agree. with you except I would bracket that. inside the conscious experience part. right and the reason I don't bracket. that is because there are two reasons I. think you're going to include non-human. animals or arbitrarily disqualify them. or you're going to exclude some human.

beings. um well I guess let me ask you just a. question here so I've got this this is a. cool book actually for anyone's kid it's. called a child is born by Leonard. Nilsson he is actually pro-choice uh he. doesn't let pro-lifers use these. pictures in their books and stuff but he. pioneered in utero photography back in. the 50s and 60s he died in 2017. so like. this. would be a 26 week old fetus and so that.

so that would fall under your definition. requires legal protection. right yeah but not because of what it. looks like but yeah I'm just I'm just. showing the thing sure I think it's. important in this app like this is an. app I understand these things are remote. and I'm fine showing actually from all. the stages so if you want to bring me. back up here like this would be first. trimester so that's about. um could we actually go back in so this. would be a embryo it's about four weeks. old uh most abortions happen right after. this point but you can see the heartbeat.

things like that so that'd be the first. trimester. then we go forward a little bit more. we've got eight weeks so that'd be an. embryo at eight weeks. and this would be what fetus at eight. weeks I should say then this would be 12. weeks. that's what we have here. and then right before the cut off. right before Destiny is cut off would be. this would be 19 weeks.

and then so my question though is this. that 26 weeks let's bring that up here. my question would be. uh why why is the killing of this thing. so bad that it ought to be illegal can. you just explain to me the Badness like. what's happening here that's so bad it. ought to be illegal. um without getting Ultra fundamental I. think that probably every constructed. human moral system on the planet agrees. that we're all probably afforded a.

negative right to life that for somebody. to infringe on our right to life. requires a a big hurdle to surmount. right so uh if I'm trying to kill you if. I've done some violation of a law you. know where States decided to put. somebody to death that for the most part. if governments exist for any reason one. of the most fundamental reasons are. protection to life quite literally that. negative right afforded to us so as long. as all of us are humans as long as we're. all social creatures and we've all got. some agreement to live and work and. exist with one another that negative. right to life ought to be protected at.

all stages of when a person exists so. it's like a social contract essentially. yeah. would a society be incorrect if the. social contract included uh all. biological human beings so every human. embryo or fetus. um when you say correct or incorrect. what do you mean by that would it be a. morally bad or evil contract for example. 150 years ago there was a social. contract that said some human beings.

could be enslaved for example uh. throughout most female history social. contracts have excluded certain groups. of people where the con social contracts. in those societies immoral. um so immoral is kind of in a way. begging the question of which moral. system are using obviously insofar as. theirs were concerned it wasn't for me. personally I don't believe in any sort. of like moral realism I don't believe in. any kind of like moral fact so I don't. think I could evaluate from some.

objective frame of reference this thing. is absolutely morally correct or this. thing is absolutely morally incorrect as. far as I'm aware I don't believe that we. have any organs to allow us to perceive. any sort of moral fact in the world so I. think that moral systems are invented by. people I think that we all have kind of. shared intuitions and so when we're. writing like any kind of moral system I. think what we're doing is we're kind of. leaning into the intuitions that people. have and we're trying to write rules. explaining kind of why people feel the. things they do as an analogy to that did. you ever take any musical training yes I.

was in the seventh grade and I was an. idiot and instead of picking the guitar. I picked the trumpet okay it turns out. girls like the guitar more than the. trumpet but true so for music there's. something called music theory which is a. theory of explaining how music sounds a. way to a certain person right a music. theorist can't write and say this is. gonna sound good to you all a music. theory person can do is say well these. things tend to sound good let's figure. out the rules for why they do and why. they don't and I believe that morality. is constructed in the same way so I'd be. like probably like a non-cognitivist the.

school of thought under like a moral. anti-realism I guess so to go back when. you ask me is something like objectively. right or wrong I don't believe that. there is an objective right or wrong. just like I don't think there's an. objective beautiful or an objective best. song or an objective anything like that. now so when so like I would say it's. evil to rape someone it is wrong to do. that and it is a fact that no one should. ever do that full stop would you just. say. rape makes you feel bad you don't like.

it you'd prefer people don't do that. yeah that's essentially the. non-cognitive position right because I. don't think you can I don't believe. there's a fact to be observed my. challenge would be is how do I observe a. moral fact. well I just think that we have a sense. of observing morality just like we have. a sense of observing the natural world. and it's not the Matrix we have an. intuitive ability to do that and I have. no I have no reason to deny that that. ability to exist that that ability. exists I just just as I know the world. around us is real even if I can't prove.

that I know that it's an objective fact. that it's wrong to rape children for. example. so let's say that you had two people and. they came together and just we were. observing the natural world and two. people had a disagreement over if I. dropped this cup you know will the cup. go to the ground or not right do we. believe in gravity essentially. um I think that if there was a. disagreement between those two people I. think that we can run tests that appeal. to our faculty where we can God damn it. Brian there's a motorcycle outside guys.

who knows we all there's sense data that. basically we can acquire from The Real. World and then it can assuming none of. us are psychotic or delusional we can. come to an agreement over whether the. cup will fall or not if two of us were. to analyze a situation. um we can say like the rape of kids. because that's a a pretty obviously. wrong one for most people but if we go. into Harrier situations like say Kyle. Rittenhouse defending himself there's a. disagreement there over whether or not. you might have a right to kill somebody. based on attacking you how do you. observe the disagreement like how do you. figure how do you reconcile who's right.

or wrong if there's a moral fact there. well just like in general let's say. there are facts of History uh just. because we might disagree about which. historical facts are true or not we. might not have access to all the. information or make inferences we can. still say that you know it was a fact. that the Civil War happened for example. even if we disagree about what exactly. caused it or something like that so when. it comes to morality even if we disagree. about some the fact that there is. disagreement about moral issues I think. that shows there's objective morality.

now as a religious person I do think. there is ultimately a universal moral. law Giver what you might call God that. ultimately explains that even if you. didn't believe in God and there are many. moral realists who don't. you could believe it well the fact that. we the fact that we talk about abortion. we're not talking about abortion like we. talk about. um sports teams or talk about fashion. you know what does this look good does. that look good that's very subjective. but it seems like when we talk about.

abortion we can make moral progress we. can get closer to having a better. position like I think America has made. moral progress in getting rid of slavery. giving women the right to vote things. like that but if moral but if there were. no objective morals you couldn't call it. progress it would just be change just. like how fashion changes yeah I agree. but I mean moral progress is begging the. question that there is an objective. morality right in order to make progress. there must be something let's let's get. out of the basement and go back to. abortion well I do want to say one thing.

because you said you can have a. disagreement over historical truth again. that truth are empirical things like I. could uncover archaeologically like uh. some item that disproves or proves. another theory that's fundamentally. different I think than a disagreement. over moral fact for instance two people. somebody a woman says something slightly. rude to her husband the husband strikes. the woman to discipline her two people. come together and they say I disagree on. whether or not that's right or wrong. what what where is the moral fact how do. you actually determine concretely who is.

right or wrong because for historical. fact the answer is there right somehow. there's some piece of evidence you could. find to prove yes this did happen to. know this didn't but for a moral dispute. how do you reconcile that between two. different people who disagree well I. think what you would do is you would. start with the most basic intuitions. that we can see are correct like just. starting with uh you ought to do good. and avoid evil uh it's wrong to rape and. torture someone because it's fun for you. courage is better than cowardice and.

these are just basement level things. that people can see or true just like we. can see the natural world around us we. can see the external World there might. be some colorblind people who can't see. it like we do but that doesn't take away. from the objective thing let's go back I. want to wear this is It's a I understand. we can't go back but these I think these. parts are pretty important because it's. going to inform a lot of them okay let's. let's put a pin in it because I want to. I want to talk about your view about. abortion though because I think okay. when it comes I think here's what I I. think honestly happens in these just it. doesn't have to just be abortion give me. any moral dispute sure what we'll say is.

all right here's moral issue X you have. your view I have my view and we critique. and a lot of the ways we critique each. other's views is your view leads to. these crazy consequences yeah but your. view leads to Crazy consequences so then. then we kind of say Okay whose view. leads to kind of less crazy consequences. and that's maybe the more reasonable. view we are told I think that happens a. lot in moral discourse yeah so I wanna. so your view then would be this and then. I'll talk about the consequences and.

I'll talk about just the overall what I. think is wrong with the view that. a person exists when you lose the. immediate ability to be conscious I. guess you permanently lose it like if. you're in a persistent vegetative state. permanently you're no longer a person. when you lose Consciousness you're not a. person anymore when you lose it. permanently. so you start to be a person when you. gain it prior to 20 weeks there is no. person there's no one there with a right. to life in the. fetus correct your view.

so I have a few questions then uh would. it be wrong to cause a healthy fetus to. become permanently unconscious. no okay. uh so would it be wrong to cause this. permanent unconsciousness to use let's. say you could keep growing the fetus. into an older body to use it for organ. harvesting maybe it's kind of sex doll. even as long as it never became. conscious or didn't have the fact never. became correct okay.

related question but we'll Circle back. soon uh what are your thoughts on fake. child pornography using AI or virtual. images. oh. um. fake child pornography I'm not going to. have a strong opinion on the on the. action itself it's going to be. consequential in nature in terms of like. what are the impacts of doing it so say. you create a bunch and people stop. actually abusing children I'd probably. be in favor of it say you create a bunch. and it leads to an increased harm of. children I'd probably opposed to you.

have a practical objection not an in. principle objectives no they wouldn't be. like no yeah okay uh so that circles. back so let's say we had people who took. fetuses made them permanently. unconscious and made them infant toddler. or child sex dolls so we have you know. so we have unconscious. um infants and toddlers they were never. conscious. they're used as child sex dolls uh your. only objection to that practice would be. if it caused more pedophilia among other.

countries Corrections yeah because I. would say there's no no person is being. harmed there okay so child sex dolls uh. could be on the table okay kind of. although I would fight the framing of. this because child is intuition pumping. the idea that it's a fully formed. developed human and I would never call a. brainless thing. yeah so then I would say uh human human. body lacking a brain I would say you can. do whatever you want a biological human. organism uh that proceeds through the. child stages that is never conscious so.

there we go all right. um would it be wrong to kill a newborn. who has never been conscious. um assuming it lacked the ability to be. conscious sure it's not or you can you. can kill it there's nothing to kill you. can end the existence of whatever that. is yes well suppose it didn't. permanently lack the ability uh if we if. we gave it. um drugs or something like that or maybe. it'll naturally come out of it in a few.

months. when you say come out of it. we start to get into an area where. you're like kind of um disintegrating my. concept of Consciousness so I consider a. conscious experience to be an emergent. property of the underlying structures of. the brain communicating with each other. so if you're telling me what if you had. all the underlying structures but you. didn't have that conscious experience. it's a really hard one for me to. conceptualize to say the structures. still have to develop sure then it's an. undeveloped yeah then I would say it's. free game for whatever yeah for example. I think this came up a little bit in.

your dialogue with Lila. um you have an anencephalic child who. doesn't have an upper brain someone like. Jackson Buell yeah uh people can look. that up online uh doctors said he'll. probably dot most and encephalic. children the upper brain does not. develop so you just the neural tube. fails to close so you just have a lower. brain and Jackson lived to be about five. uh now his parents claimed that he did. exhibit signs of Consciousness some. other people might debate that I don't. know but you would say that if he if a.

newborn didn't you know never develop. Consciousness I mean I guess it's like a. fetus and never developed it the. structures haven't developed yet in the. brain okay uh. uh here's one that'd be interesting um. suppose we had a drug that could uh so. take the anencephaly case uh normally if. you don't grow your if your brain. Consciousness doesn't develop it's never. going to develop suppose we had a drug. in the future that could allow an.

anencephalic fetus uh to develop. Consciousness but if we don't give it. the drug it'll never be conscious uh. does that human fetus that human being. biological human being would they have a. right to that treatment. um I don't think they would have any. rights yet because rights I would say. only afforded two persons I don't know. fetuses are afforded at any right so no. it would not have a right to it no so. even if we had a newborn correct who. could be conscious if we gave them. medicine uh.

they don't have any kind of right to. that treatment no. and I guess although again I would fight. I would find on the optics for me. because when you say newborn we're. intuition pumping and normal healthy. nine-month fetus that's now delivered. but I would fight that whatever you're. describing is a very new a new well it. is a newly born human being that has a. brain injury or a lack of parts of a. brain. right as it has it is a newly born human. being with a. congenital cerebral defect okay and we.

could give this human being medication. for them to have a normal and healthy. life. but you're saying this human being would. have no right to it. and I guess their parents. couldn't wouldn't have a right to say. this child ought to be treated any more. than somebody who has a dog that's. injured would have a right to similar. treatment. I mean they I mean the I mean you have a. right to treat your animals right but. the question of whether we as a human. society will treat this infant why is.

there some more compulsion like a. healthcare system to provide emergency. services or something yes yeah yeah no I. would say no okay so not provide no duty. to provide medical care to newly born. human beings who have a brain defect. kind of although again I'm going to. fight because when you say newly born. human beings you're intuition pumping. out a normal Health what do you mean. what do you mean by intuition when I say. intuition pump what I mean is it's like. would you do you think it's okay to rape. a person that doesn't have a brain and.

then if I say well I guess it's a it's. not barely a person you're like okay so. it's okay to rape people with brain. injuries I would fight I would say well. when you say people or person the. intuition is when somebody thinks of a. person they think of like a normal. healthy functioning person and then. you're plugging in like all of the. normative baggage of raping somebody. which is ordinarily we would all agree. is an unethical thing to do to a person. or I'm sure or I could be in describing. it accurately a newly born human being. because human being is a biological.

category most people have a deep. intuition that newly born human beings. are persons even though they don't where. does that intuition come from though. it comes from the moral sense that we. have the same sense we have that people. are persons regardless of their skin. color no I disagree I think it probably. comes from us seeing human beings that. are born and the vast majority of them. being healthy right it was the case that. only five percent of human beings that. were born you know come out with fully. functioning brains that intuition could. be markedly different so that's the only.

reason why I fight on the newborn child. with a brain injury we're talking about. an exceptional kind of like when Pro um. but like when pro-choice people argue. about um. uh like abortion to save the life of the. mother and like shouldn't this be legal. pro-lifers will usually point out well. that's an exceptional circumstance a. very rare case of abortion right I would. argue that whatever you're talking about. would be a point zero zero zero zero. zero one percent is a very rare I don't. even know if these types of brain. injuries exist when people are born. except for like the hydrocephalus or and. well anencephaly is real condition what. I'm talking about is a hypothetical.

example of we develop medicine to treat. it sure and that's not as far-fetched as. a brain transplant or a teleporter I. mean 150 years ago a hip replacement. would be science fiction and now we can. do that that is true but I don't know if. we've made any progress in terms of like. brain regrowth or transplants or but I. mean who's to say it could happen in the. future right I do have a concern like. when you say I am intuition pumping I. agree with you people can have. misleading examples I'm trying to keep. the language very clear here but I would.

say the way you use the term makes it. sound like intuition pumps are bad. that's not traditionally how the term is. used so for example the term comes from. loss for Daniel Dennett so he coined the. term I think back in the 80s he wrote a. book in 2013 called intuition pumps and. other tools for thinking he says this I. coined the term in the first of my. public critiques of the philosopher John. searle's famous Chinese room thought. experiment some thinkers concluded I. meant the term to be disparaging or. dismissive on the contrary I love.

intuition pumps that is some intuition. pumps are excellent some are dubious and. only a few are downright deceptive so I. agree with you someone could create a. thought experiment that's deceptive in. its nature but the fact that I'm just. describing what is happening to members. of the human species I don't think. that's deceptive in any way sure and I. partially agree uh so for instance if. somebody says why would you hit your own. wife that makes about as much sense as. keying your own car we could argue that. there is a pump there that I think is.

like the fact that you would compare. your wife to a car maybe demonstrates. that there's another issue going on well. yeah I would say that the example has a. mistaken set of assumptions built into. it which you can do for any yeah but the. only reason why I'm fighting on this. particular point is because oftentimes. when we say a person or a child there's. a feature in our mind of what a feature. complete person or child is but when we. say a person or child absent things that. are typically essential to that person. or child it feels a little uh iffy at. the end to say okay so you'd be okay. doing this to a person or a child I'm.

okay with it I'm only marking it for the. audience because I know that the way. that you're phrasing it makes it sound a. certain type of way and I want to fight. that rhetorical yeah here's another. question then. um now you would agree though that. infants have Consciousness they're aware. of things uh we'll talk talk about the. level of Consciousness. um so it'd be wrong to kill them what if. human being was injured and because of. their injury they had. um. they permanently were at the level of.

consciousness of a newborn. would you say that that's still a person. I believe so my understanding is that. like once you've once those parts in the. brain are communicating and you've got. some level of conscious experience you. can it's it's there it's not again like. I said I don't believe that you go from. like lizard Consciousness to dog. Consciousness to ape Consciousness to. human consciousness like once it's there. it's there it's got to be in that bucket. of human conscious experiences even if. it might be relatively subdued do you. think if a three-year-old human being is. more conscious of the outside world than.

a newborn infant. um whether or not it's more or less. conscious I don't know if that's as much. part of the development of the brain. versus the acquisition of sense data so. if you take um a one month old and for. some reason it's like a little bit. developmentally delayed in terms of like. it's the brain growth but it can still. collect and accrue a whole bunch of. experiences then that level of. development might be enough to gain uh a. surprising understanding of the world I. mean obviously it's going to be. cognitive impairment but I don't know if. like the three-year-old is more.

conscious because they have a higher. level of Consciousness or if they've. just been spending more time collecting. data about the world like I would say a. 25 year old is probably more conscious. of the world than a 10 year old but I. don't know if that's because like the 25. year old developmentally or consciously. from an experience is like more mature I. guess they've collected more data I. agree with you a 25 year old will have. more conscious experiences but I'm. talking about the very Act of perceiving. the outside world uh I would say that a. five-year-old and a 25 year old.

um it's pretty similar time might run a. little bit slower for the five-year-old. they haven't been around as long that's. why summer break felt forever when we. were kids and now it goes by fast and. we're parents yeah but I I mean I have. three kids I've seen the infant stage. all the time they're they're basically. eating machines pooping machines they. don't they can't even they can't. recognize you just by sight would you. agree that an infant and then a. one-year-old their brain has to get.

bigger and develop more neurons and. synaptic connections to have more. different kinds of experiences wouldn't. they I don't know if I would say it's. like I don't think I would call them an. inhuman conscious though prior to that. this is probably just like part of the. development of a conscious experience. but like my understanding is that even. in the womb I believe. um uh children whatever you would call. it like a third trimester developed. thing can identify differences in. languages for instance so I don't know I. think I take issues some nice with the. framing that like a one month old is. like right here's the third trimester.

fetus hears different sounds can. differentiate different languages. um I believe that like on newborns I. think the city was like I think they. tested it was like one three in five. days I think but you can um test like. the uh I think it's they hook something. up to the head and they see the. differences between the native language. a non-native language and then gibberish. and I believe that newborn like within a. week can already differentiate different. sounds that are not part of the native. language so I don't think like a one day. old is like just a blob that has no. concept of anything I think even in the.

womb like fetuses are already starting. to accrue data about the outside world I. agree with that but do you think a dog. could probably understand like dogs can. understand the content of words like sit. and stay. um I don't know I'm not entirely sure. about that I'm pretty agnostic on the. conscious experience of animals I feel. like human conscious experience is a. really sophisticated Sapient thing I. don't know if I would say that animals. have anything even resembling our. experience I'm not entirely I agree it's. not like you or me but have you ever had. a dog. did you ever train them with commands.

yeah okay so it seems like. like an infant they don't recognize like. verbal commands would be great if they. did uh or like the example I gave with. um with pigs uh you can people can. Google this online Pig plays video games. uh you know they have pigs they have to. move the cursor to get it onto the Blue. Dot and they get a treat and they can do. that more than just what random chance. would allow like pigs seem pretty smart. uh they I think it'd be fair to say they.

have more of a conscious awareness of. the world than like what a newborn. infant has I don't know if that's true. um I think that smart is a word that we. use but I don't know if like ability to. problem solve or do pavlovian. associations is the same type of thing. as having a robust Sapient experience. that humans have I do agree that dogs. and pigs and um Dolphins especially can. learn really complicated intricate. patterns but I don't know if they have. the same like semantic understanding of.

the world or type of conscious safety. and experience that humans do even if. they can do really complicated pattern. recognition essentially yes because this. is what I'm trying to figure out here is. that so let's say someone's permanently. at the newborn level so they're very. disabled. so in that case do you think there's. people if that person that person might. be on a feeding tube because they might. be really hard to manage imagine a 35. year old who acts like a newborn might. have to restrain them maybe can't spoon. feed them might put them on a feeding. tube people in that situation might be.

very difficult and they're not going to. have rational experiences like you or me. do you think a lot of people would want. to withhold food in that case. um possibly but I think probably social. contract and everything with the. agreement that we have we wouldn't do. that to old people that need a lot of. help with themselves so we don't do that. to people with extraordinary mental. disabilities so like low functioning. autistic people or something so this is. this should probably fall in the. category of protected people due to the. rights that we afford everybody has to. say and so you don't have a principled. objection against the social contract. being widened to include unborn human.

beings you just personally don't agree. with it. um would I have a problem with it being. widened I mean I would because I would. disagree with the widening of it I. disagree with the moral justification. for it I guess with a metaphysical. justification for it because I don't. think that I don't think a one cell. thing is the same thing as a as an adult. or even a third trimester it's not this. it is I agree it's not the same I don't. think it's the same thing in kind it's. it is well it is the same biological. kind you're saying that it's moral value.

changes but as a moral anti-realist you. can't believe moral value exists. subjectively it's just your opinion yeah. but just because you're an anti-realist. doesn't mean that you can't have. opinions on you just don't believe that. those opinions are rooted in a moral. fact right right you're entitled to your. opinions however incorrect they may be. correct and your intelligent opinions. but only if they come but you can't but. you can't say they're incorrect well. because you have a I mean but if you. would argue with a Muslim scholar they. would disagree right or a Jewish Jewish. scholar. um or any other type of religion right.

so the fact that we disagree shows that. there's some kind of objective truth. we're all trying to to seek out as a. total non-sequitur there are people that. disagree with whether Vegito or Gogeta. would win in a fight in Dragon Ball GT. but that doesn't make them any more real. just because two people disagree over a. fictional thing doesn't necessarily mean. that fictional thing might be real I. don't hold people morally blameworthy. based on the position they hold of who. would win in a fight Superman or Goku I. would just like to point out I think. whatever you're going to say is wrong. well I'm pretty sure Dragon Ball GT is.

not canon just letting you know that's. an objective fact just letting you know. well whatever if we argue over whether. it is or isn't Canon apparently it. becomes an objective fact well I reckon. we ought to stick to uh the abortion. topic but um but no no but I will take. issue because you said that a couple. times now just because two people. disagree over something doesn't. necessarily mean there's an objective. fact of the matter right I agree but. also it doesn't follow that just because. people disagree that there is no. objective fact well that no I never used. that though what I said was the. inability to reconcile a disagreement. means that there might not be an. objective fact because there's no.

sensory organ that we have to perceive. moral fact again to the one example. husband hits a wife how can anybody. agree or disagree whether that ought to. be a way that we discipline people for. instance you said use the situation you. described as underdeveloped I'd ask why. did he hit his wife how exactly did he. hit his wife uh if he hit her because. she's uh gone crazy because of some kind. of drug and is going to attack she hits. him uh he hits her because she does. disrespects them in public she says. something like.

um my husband doesn't make the bed in. the morning pisses me off and then he. slaps her in public and I would say that. that is wrong even when Society once. said it was right and then but then. another person disagrees with you sure. how do you reconcile the disagreement. well we would we would go and once again. I want to get too far away from abortion. here but we would go back to our basic. framework for understanding morality so. if you look at natural law for example. or just even basic intuitions we say. natural law yeah well natural law is. just things have a nature they have a.

way that where they flourish we can see. a good tree versus a bad tree. non-morally sure do you get worried that. you run into weird naturalistic. fallacies or assumptions there for. instance it's natural for very young. people to have sex before marriage. naturalistically right sure so how does. natural law how do you reconcile that. with Biblical law well I'm not even. bringing the Bible into this so like. when I would look at let's say like what. our organs are for I would say okay well. what is sex uh what does it do uh yeah. it creates these pleasurable feelings. but it also involves the exchange of. gametes and that creates.

uh a biological human being and people. are going to guess disagree when it has. moral value but allowed to continue to. develop normally it will develop and. it's a very needy human being nearly. everybody agrees that when it's born. this needy thing is going to die unless. somebody takes care of it I agree but. backing up there's a lot of other. manipulations of sexual organs that. don't involve the creation of a child. sure but I don't I don't want to. derail Us in talking about sexuality. though that is sure an issue when it. comes to abortion I do think I will real.

quick just because it's a little because. I understand that you've set up a lot of. questions for I will say intuition. pumping. um that kind of make my position sound. insane you can ask me questions too. that's why I mean well but these are the. questions that I'm more interested in. because you come from a position of. moral Authority where you believe that. you have a set of objective facts that. you want to argue in favor of but my. argument to you would be I don't believe. that you can ever prove an objective. fact without diving into the Bible. there's no way that we can reconcile. moral fact disagreements because we. don't have a sensory organ to perceive. it we can argue over color we can argue. over gravity we can argue over things we.

can perceive but morality we can't. perceive we just have how we feel about. it and I don't think it's a satisfying. answer for a lot of people and I would. just say if that were true there's. really no point in us talking about this. at all right now like you'd have to say. it's not an objective fact like is it an. objective fact that the state should. allow women to have abortions is it an. objective fact that the state should. well that should is doing a lot of work. there shouldn't with regards to my. purported morals I would say yes it is. that they should be allowed to have an. abortion it was but. it's not objective you're just saying I.

would really like insurance without them. being objective right or no well what. you're saying here is that you would. just like if the state did what you. thought was good correct what you agreed. with what you yes correct or not even. all you thought was good because that's. a factual category what makes you feel. good if the world were that way correct. okay that's an opinion it is okay that's. why we argue with each other but I. believe at the end of the day we're. engaged in the same game it's just I. think that you feel like you're standing. on more solid ground than you actually. have I do think so let me here's another.

question do you think post-abortive. women who think they are murderers or. women who mourn miscarriage like it's. the death of a baby that they're deluded. um. not necessarily no. do you think I think that when they're I. think that when they're mourning I think. that their morning. um a missed opportunity rather than the. thing itself. I think but if you asked them. women who've had abortions and say I'm a.

murderer or a woman who miscarries this. is my baby died. I think most of them wouldn't phrase it. because some of those women may have. also gone through periods of infertility. and I'm sure they would say their period. of infertility was different than the. loss than the death of the human being. that was residing in their womb. so I guess let me put it to you this way. what I'm saying is I think if a woman in. miscarries or if she has an abortion and. later comes to have regrets about it I. think that the feeling she has is. probably not like oh my god there was. that three-week fetus and I terminated.

it she's probably thinking like I there. was a baby that could have existed I. could have delivered a baby I would have. had a child there was a person there. that's now gone do you think those women. ever say I I killed my baby not. something I probably yeah okay I. probably say that do you think a woman. who says I'm a murderer because I had my. period And I expelled an egg from my. body she's like I murdered a human being. do you think she's deluded. um if you thought you murdered a human. being because you had a period yeah you. you passed an egg it didn't get.

fertilized and that egg died. she's PR as a loaded word but I say. she's probably deluded yeah why is she. deluded. um I'm not even sure what she I mean. periods are part of normal human. menstruation are you crying every month. because you're murdering. my point is that I agree but I would. also I would take the same intuitive. answer and I would say does a woman cry. or feel bad when she accidentally has a. slightly rougher period She doesn't. realize that she's miscarried because.

there's a lot of miscarriages happen. early early on when women don't even. know they're pregnant yet no I agree I. am not saying that uh because an unborn. human being is a person that everyone. who miscarries will react properly or. react uh with intense grief there's lots. of born people that die we don't shed a. tier four at all there's people dying. right now as we're talking and you know. okay but my point is that if we if The. Unborn if the human embryo prior to 20. weeks would you agree that it has the.

same moral status as an ovum an egg. um. same I mean they're different things but. yeah roughly the same I guess yeah as a. no moral status yeah okay so then I. would say that if a woman is we would. consider her diluted or off the. reservation or hey there's nothing to. get worked up over here it was just an. ovum you're you're operating with really. mistaken sense of the world it seems. like under your view we should have that. same mentality towards post-aborted.

women prior to 20 weeks but I think my. view better aligns with most people's. intuitions that the death of a human. embryo or fetus is far far different. morally than the death of an ovum but. they're not valuing that fetus they're. valuing what it would become and again I. agree with what you're saying but I. think that you're skipping over really. important steps if I steal ten thousand. dollars from somebody that I steal a. hundred thousand dollars from them. I didn't but if I steal ten thousand. dollars from somebody when they're 20. maybe when they're 25 they're like oh.

God like if I would have invested this. or 27 over seven years I maybe I could. have had a hundred thousand dollars so. when they're 25 they might feel really. bad they feel like I should be a hundred. thousand dollars richer but that doesn't. change the fact that seven years earlier. I only stole ten thousand dollars at a. hundred thousand dollars so somebody. loses a fetus they might feel bad. because now they're missing the child. that could have been much the same that. if somebody would have connected with. the right person earlier in life maybe. they could have had a wonderful marriage. but just because they're wanting the. fact that they didn't meet a person at. the right time doesn't mean they're. suddenly divorced the marriage never. happens so you're saying whatever when.

somebody Grieves over a miscarriage at. let's say. you know 12 weeks that's the same grief. as like misconnections on Craigslist. like oh he could have been the one yeah. okay. well I'll leave it up to our listeners. to see if that is plausible. um and the last one I guess. um. just to make sure you're on the record. of this uh do you agree with laws that. would make it illegal to kill wanted. fetuses like let's say a woman's. pregnant she's really excited her.

boyfriend is like I wanted to get that. abortion and you know he gives her he. slips her a drug or he like kicks her in. the stomach or something to kill the. baby kill sorry to Kill The Unborn human. being uh and that human being dies or he. kills the pregnant woman and this. 12-week fetus dies along with her in. like 35 38 States and under federal law. that would be. homicide for killing that unborn human. being do you not agree with those laws. prior to 20 weeks now okay.

all righty so and like I said and I'm. fine to pitch back over to you you can I. mean you can Terry I have more for you. you can interrogate me also I want to. recap your view and what it leads to. um well. just just to recap it's permissible to. kill infants who have not been conscious. yet uh to kill toddlers oh yeah what if. toddler loses all of his memories and. they're never and they're not going to. come back he's at the same stage as like. a 19-week fetus.

um. and and it there. that's a it's impossible that's like. asking me like are you killed when you. teleport on Star Trek I don't think I. have an answer for that I don't think. that's that's a very difficult. hypothetical I think it challenges the. concept of identity but I don't know if. that gets into like a human life or not. a human life we're talking about. deleting somebody's memory and resetting. their brain to 19 weeks. but why does it because I guess. well I guess here is. what if I gave you this argument hold on. let me.

clear because your symmetry the Symmetry. argument you're making I feel like it is. um. I can make a better one that runs on the. same principles okay so what what about. this argument a person stops I don't. endorse this for everything but let's. just do it for this art this discussion. okay a person stops existing When Future. conscious experience becomes impossible. for that individual. do you agree with that. future conscious experience becomes.

impossible for that individual yeah they. lose the ability to have a conscience. yeah sure all right so a person stops. existing When Future conscious. experience becomes impossible for that. individual. um number two a person exists as long as. future conscious experiences are. probable for that individual. well they and they and they had one. prior yes. because otherwise that sentence is. meaningless then why don't why don't I. add this writer to it then uh and any.

conscious experiences they have must be. psychologically connected to any. previous experiences. uh maybe it's just the sentence that you. gave a person exists as long as future. conscious experience is possible so. you've got the future conscious. experience on there but when you say a. person exists that person I think begs. the conscious experience because I don't. know what it means for a person to exist. if there is no conscious experience yet. I'm just trying to do the exact same. symmetry argument you're doing that if. you stop existing at the if you are an.

individual. okay and you stop existing when for this. individual future conscious experiences. are impossible correct then why can't we. say then the other one would be for this. individual this individual is a person. as long as future conscious experiences. are probable. yeah as long as you but you're when. you're making the graph and the math. then you have to have the filled in.

circle and then the Ray it's just saying. like look this this person future. conscious experiences they're impossible. you are not a person correct so the. Symmetry for that in fact I'm actually. being generous because the Symmetry. would not be improbable it'd be possible. sure so. it my point would just be then a person. if a person stops existing When Future. conscious experience becomes impossible. why can't we say a person exists. as long as the future experiences are.

possible. and a person starts existing at the. first moment those experiences are. possible. I think that is my position. it isn't because I would say so for. example if somebody uh. ends up in a persistent vegetative state. they've lost their immediate capacity to. have conscious experiences but some. people do come out of persistent. vegetative States okay all right so the.

point is not that they're able to have. conscious experiences it's just that at. some point in the future they will be. able to do that. okay. okay so then when it followed then for. that individual even when they were an. embryo they're in the same position at. some point in the future they'll have. conscious experiences I feel like your. rejoinder is just going to be the PBS. person has the machinery for it the. embryo doesn't but I just don't see how. that's relevant to the Symmetry here. because the when you say the fetus will.

in the future yes it hasn't yet there's. no person yet a person in a vegetative. state or coma there is a person to speak. of if I have a coma right now you can. say Stephen was a person and he might. have a future conscious experience if I. haven't even existed yet there's no. Stephen to even speak of right there's. nothing there to think of but every. being with conscious experiences will. have a first experience correct and I. think that happens at 20 to 28 weeks do. you think a one cell organism is having. an experience no it's not do you think. about 20 cell organism is having an.

experience but I would say what makes. you a person is not the moment you have. the experience but that you're the kind. of being who can have those experiences. just as someone who is brain dead is the. kind of being who will never have those. experiences. between uh yeah what's interesting an. embryo and a corpse a corpse the. differences a corpse is a human organism. that has lost organic Unity the parts. don't work together for the good of the. whole and so it will decompose okay it.

will lose composition it will fall apart. an embryo is a living organism its parts. work together to grow other parts when. it becomes sophisticated enough it will. grow a brain to take over to keep. development going that's only with the. help of the mother though right well all. of us need our mom's help when we're. little we need to be fed we need to be. uh nothing else past birth needs to be. connected biologically to another thing. right so whatever definition you give of. the zygote the single cell with the.

Union I'm gonna I would argue you could. give that same definition for a sperm or. an or an egg you have an argue that a. sperm or an egg on its own will never. develop in anything the sperm or the egg. need an egg or a sperm term however the. fetus will never develop in anything it. needs the sustenance from the mother. right so here's the difference uh I. believe that something is an organism if. you can give it time nutrition and a. proper environment and it has the. capacity to develop into a mature member. of a species and it only needs those. three things time nutrition proper.

environment that's great but that's. entirely arbitrary. it's a definition of an organism that's. why sperm and egg and cancer cells they. are body parts you give them time. nutrients and environment they'll always. be that same type of thing they cannot. develop the it depends on how we define. environment right because a sperm put in. the environment of an egg will. eventually join and become as it grows. with a in inside the womb into something. like a human eventually right right but.

I would say that when the sperm and the. Egg combine the sperm and egg no longer. exist anymore they've undergone a. substantial change they're defined as. being I said something what do you think. is more different sperm or a one-celled. organism from a nine month baby what do. you think is more different there wait. come again yeah there's one sperm or one. egg what's more different the one sperm. and the one egg to the zygote or the. zygote to the nine month. fetus they're diff they are different in. a myriad of ways so but your argument.

you're saying that that nine-month fetus. is more in common with the Single Cell. zygote than a sperm or an egg has with a. single a nine a nine-month fetus and. zygote are the same kind of thing. because the words zygote and fetus if. you look them up would say this is the. stage of development in the life of a. human being so a nine month fetus and a. zygote are very different one's going to. have billions of more cells for example. but a sperm and egg and a zygote the. difference there is greater because. we're not talking about degree like a.

zygote and a fetus they're different in. degrees more cells more abilities but. the sperm egg and the the human embryo. they're different in kind these are. organs they're body parts they're not a. whole body I understand what you're. saying I just I don't know if um. I'm pushing you on the arbitrariness of. your saying a difference in kind because. that single cell organism is. nothing in kind it's got genes it's got. you know a genetic profile well without.

the nutrients from the mom it'll grow. into two four eight cells and then what. die so in your world the in kind of that. if you don't if you don't give nutrients. to an infant what will happen to them. um the info could die as well. could or will but that conscious. experience is already there so it. escapes my issue. no but I'm saying that the point you're. making I don't see how it shows that the. embryo is not a person or doesn't have. moral value just because yeah because. your age you have a strange definition. of time nutrition and proper environment.

um and then you are drawing an arbitrary. border around I'm saying that's what. makes something an organism. yeah but we're not arguing over. something being an organism or not right. we're arguing over when something gets. personhood yeah and I'm saying persons. are kinds of organisms a person is a. kind of being capable of of rational. existence well yeah it's a kind of being. capable of rational existence but though. that stops when the being is dead. correct right because it's it the being.

doesn't exist anymore it's gone back to. body parts well it does exist or what do. you mean it doesn't exist I would say. that what part stops existing the. organic Unity so when you are dead so if. you. um when I die however you want to Define. that let's say well that's pretty. important it is important just because. we can't define the moment when somebody. dies we know the difference between dead. people and living people dead people uh. their bodies start to decompose because. their blood's not being pumped it's not. being oxygenated the parts aren't.

working together for the good of the. whole uh from fertilization onward a. human organism has this my point is just. that human organisms are persons because. they belong to a rational kind. I really I guess let me put it out here. this is what I think when it comes down. to the abortion debate. I think there's really only three. defensible views and yours and you're. just not one of them just to be clear on. that just real quick because he's a. human organisms are part of a rational. kind I agree with you yes we're just.

fighting over if the brackets extend to. the 20 weeks to zero weeks basically. right I do agree with that statement but. the statement is begging the questions. I'm saying you don't need the immediate. capacity. you don't need the immediate capacity to. be conscious to be a person because I. think you're still a person uh even if. you have a brain injury and You've Lost. That ability temporarily uh I believe. and just one of the examples that I gave. earlier I think that most people would. say it is wrong to take a healthy fetus.

permanently make them unconscious and do. God knows what with them. and the only I think the only thing that. can explain why that's wrong is because. that human fetus has a right to properly. develop in virtue of being a person and. I think it's a very strong moral. intuition most people would share sure. do you think that if um. do you think if it was the case that a. fetus were to grow. um 8 16 32 to 64 cells in size and then. it had some kind of deformation or it.

wasn't able to develop past that point. do you think we have a moral obligation. to deliver the 64 cell organism and then. keep it alive in a dish for as long as. we can assuming we could deliver it I. think we have a moral obligation to. provide medical care to sick humans yeah. okay so that's why I gave the example. like we provide spina bifida treatments. even I think we could do it possibly. before the 20-week cut off like we could. start having medical technology for uh. fetuses for 20 weeks sure I'm not I'm.

not to be clear I'm not talking about. any of that is to be very very clear. what I'm saying is a woman is having. trouble maybe the pregnancy is not going. okay but we have the ability to keep any. organism alive in a Petri dish for as. long as they want you would say there's. a moral obligation to safely deliver. using a microscope and tweezers or. whatever a 64 cell organism and put it. in a Petri dish and then provide. nutrients and keep that thing alive. until the end of its natural medicine I. think that uh should provide. proportionate medical care so for. example my wife and I were dealing with. miscarriage like our child almost.

miscarried we we rushed to get. progesterone to inject her with it it's. thick as concrete it's rough to. administer but we were doing that to. save the life of that actual child who. might have been only a few assaulted. more than 64 because most people figure. it out it's a lot older than that. um. actually I have interesting question. wait wait no no no wait wait I'm gonna. ask a question write it down but because. you used a word here to escape that wait. on the book can you show me what the one. week thing looks like yeah sure or. what's the one last picture the earliest. yeah sure I've got that right here um.

here yeah. this would be this guy so I'm asking if. you have to deliver that so this would. be a notice yeah this is a new human. being yep right here so if we have the. technology to deliver that and the care. was quite simple you just water the dish. and maybe put a couple of nutrients in. the dish and you could keep that alive. for five to ten years you'd be just as. morally obligated to keep that alive in. a Petri dish than you would for a child. that might be born a little bit. unhealthy keeping that alive I don't. know if we're morally obligated to. sustain the life of a human being by.

putting them essentially in a freezer. it's not a freezer would be a petri dish. you could play music for it if you want. probably wouldn't do very much good at. that stage but the music I would sure. but but your position because now you're. what because you're relying on human. intuition a lot you're trying to say. that like it's so obvious that there's a. life but now when I've challenged you to. putting that thing in a Petri dish and. watering it if I were to ask you the. same question about let's say a child is. born and it's only going to live to be. six months to one year old right I'm a. parent you're a parent both of us will. probably say yeah do everything you can. for you can't just kill it even if it's. kind of died at an early age right now.

I'm asking you for the 64 cell organism. we have the same obligation yeah but you. could have all these examples where you. don't know what to do what if they said. you know hey Destiny if you're a child. we don't know if we can save them but if. you put them in this cryo tank in 200. years we think they'll come up with a. cure I agree it would be hard but that's. why to call you earlier it's just a. hypothetical so earlier you asked me. about a child born missing parts of its. brain that we could inject a drug to. give it more of a brain in the future. that's a pretty crazy hypothetical so. I'm asking you an equally crazy. hypothetical a 64 cell organism is born. do we have an obligation to keep it. alive in a Petri dish and definitely.

because some hypotheticals are going to. be closer to reality than others brain. transplants and swaps are pretty far. away cryogenetics is closer but still. not quite there uh if you like the. example I gave is just is it wrong to. take a healthy fetus and cause them to. be permanently unconscious. and that's pretty we I mean we. lobotomized born people it's not that. far out of the economies do not mean a. loss of conscious when you say healthy. fetus it implies healthy functioning. brain function so right but if it's.

before 20 weeks there's no person there. you could destroy the brain the. developing brain correct. there's no problem yeah but in your. world if a 64 cell thing was born it. needs to be kept alive in a Petri dish. until natural metabolic function cease. no we should provide medical care for. human beings prior to birth we might. disagree about what kind of care that is. let's take for example though fetal. alcohol syndrome okay now under your. view. here's what I'm I'm curious about. um you given the analogy before that. drinking while pregnant uh that doesn't.

harm an individual it harms a person in. the future like if you. hang a piano and it's got withering. wires and if it's going to fall on Bob. in three days it's bad because it's. going to fall on him in three days. and I guess the analogy there is like. when the child's born eventually they're. going to figure out why am I not like. the other kids you know that they're. gonna you know the harm is later I guess. then instead of when you were drinking. before correct okay uh. is a woman let's say a woman's diagnosed.

with fetal alcohol syndrome and the the. this human being has wait can you. clarify like sorry other women yeah. there's not the woman the the child the. human fetus has fetal alcohol syndrome. okay uh is she morally obligated to. abort that fetus and start over. um is the fetus past 20 weeks no. um. is she morally obligated to abort a. pre-20 week fetus knowing if she does. nothing a human being under your view. with fetal alcohol syndrome will come. into existence.

I'm I would lean towards no. why but it would be close because I. don't know under what circumstances. would you be morally obligated to. terminate a pre. um I don't think that's a level of harm. that justifies it like for instance if a. child was to be born with any number. maybe it could have a Huntington's. disease or a taste acts I know this. would be morally obligate people or down.

syndrome or any kind of I don't know if. you could morally obligate people to. abort those things I think that's I. think it gets into a weird. but do you think it's wrong for someone. to. um is it wrong for someone to drink to. excess because they don't care if the. fetus gets fetal alcohol syndrome yes. then what's the difference if that's. wrong why wouldn't it be wrong to refuse. to abort that child human being I mean. you can do future harm to something and. it's wrong but that doesn't necessarily.

mean that that thing has to be. terminated like I think these two things. are disconnected. right but I'm saying that in both cases. the end result is the same you do. something and it causes a being with a. disability to come into existence. and you're saying well yeah it's it's. wrong to drink well I guess we say here. is it wrong to cause a fetus to have. fetal alcohol syndrome if you're. planning to get an abortion at 12 weeks. anyways. okay so it sounds like there that that'd.

be to make through the piano analogy is. it wrong to put a piano in a building. for it to fall over in three days if you. don't think a person is going to be. underneath the building no well let me. give you to the piano analogy suppose. you have the piano the only way to keep. it from hitting Bob is to cut the wire. early so it drops on Bob's shopping cart. yeah Bob's a homeless man pushes. shopping cart around so it's either. going to destroy because that's more. like pregnancy then the piano is either. going to destroy harm bob the person or. harm the non-person the shopping cart it.

seems like you only have two choices. there would you say there you're. obligated to destroy the shopping cart. um. what is the obligation to destroy the. shopping cart from come from I don't. understand that part Bob is pushing he's. pushing his shopping cart and you hung. that when I hear well here we cannot. even without the analogy okay because. I'm following you on the fetal alcohol. syndrome thing we can agree that it's. wrong for I think we both agree it would. be wrong to cause harm to a future. person by drinking alcohol while you're. pregnant the only alternative I'm using.

the piano example yeah I want to still. we could still keep with it okay um if. in the piano because you seem pretty. clear here if in the piano example we. only have two choices we do nothing and. it injures Bob or we do something and it. destroys Bob's shopping cart. you seem pretty confident we should. injure the non-person correct and yet. you don't feel that way where a woman. who has fetal alcohol syndrome she has. two choices she does nothing. baby is born as FAS or you do something.

and the pre-viable fetus is destroyed. yeah okay maybe we're off the the part. of your analogy that's um or the the. part of the hypothetical gamer that's. challenging is to force her to do. something so let's say it was the case. that a woman was drinking and then she. gets apprentices like oh [ __ ] I'm. pregnant yeah and I'm 16 weeks pregnant. yes and she's like I'm gonna have an. abortion because I don't want to harm a. future person I think that's totally. fine the question is you originally. posted was should we obligate her to. have an abortion at 16 weeks that gets a. lot harder I think should we go should. we obligate destroying the cart instead. of hurting Bob.

that's the thing though it's destroying. the card versus herding Bob like fatal. alcohol syndrome is often not like. lethal it's not like the life is. completely let's say it's a it's a light. piano that's going to cause damage it's. still gonna it's gonna make Bob messed. up for a while when it hits him in the. head I don't know if you can obligate. because at that point then shouldn't you. obligate the termination of any fetus. that might have certain types of. conditions I'm using the word Eugenics. and once again I'm trying to tease out. your view because under your view it is. impossible to harm a fetus prior to 20.

weeks it is but there is a harm to the. mother into the autonomy the mother if. you force her to have an abortion like. there is a harm in losing a future. person much the same that if I steal ten. thousand dollars from somebody in 30. years it might have been a hundred. thousand dollars the difference is when. I take that ten thousand dollars I'm not. taking 100 I could deprive somebody of a. future person and they could actually. experience a deprivation of the future. person but killing somebody 16 week. fetus is not the same as killing their. two-year-old two years later that's the. difference right but I would say that we.

force people like parents all the time. to do or not do certain things that. their children don't come to harm uh you. know we we restrict uh even even things. like secondhand smoke for example in. really restricted situations with a. child I think parents get obligated all. the time but sure but we would never say. that like a child exposed to heavy. secondhand smoke should we kill him. before he has lung cancer or something. right we would never make that now my. view of course is that anybody with a. disease or a genetic defect or a. condition we should help that person we.

shouldn't kill them regardless of their. stage of development okay all right oh. sorry we can it's always weird I mean. I'm not sure do you want to go anywhere. else actually well we have one Super. Chat we could read here really quick we. have Alan Grana hey thank you man for. the Super Chat appreciate it no say no. pay if you can't force her to become a. mom then you shouldn't be able to force. him to become a father and pay for. something he doesn't want fair is fair I. believe this is in reference to uh uh.

there's a there's a specific term for it. I think the financial abortion I think. that's not the preferred term though. from people who are actually advocating. for what what it is I think it's uh. deadism no no it's uh I've heard I've. heard of male abortion I I think it's uh. it's it's evading me at this moment but. I think it's something like uh paternal. legal paternal surrender I think is the. the desired term by people that advocate. for it so in essence.

um. if a child is born because you know in. certain States women can. get abortions uh they're advocating that. well if the woman in the instance that. the woman opts to keep the child that. the father right could. uh surrender all legal obligations from. custody and also from having to pay. child support right. um I don't know if you guys it's some. semi-related to this conversation I'll.

know if you guys have any thoughts on. that are you in favor of uh I I think. that if the if the state could. theoretically provide everything then. fine but insofar as the state can't. usually. um questions regarding child support are. made in the best interest of the child. um if you want to talk about like what's. fair around Child Development there's. you're never going to get a good answer. there because it's not fair that women. have to deliver kids and men don't so. it's kind of a silly proposition to say. well what's the most fair about child. support because there's nothing fair. about delivering a kid right so yeah and. I would just say that mothers and. fathers have equal though different.

responsibilities they're both equally. responsible to care for their children. but they're going to have different. responsibilities because men and women. are biologically different women. intimately provide food shelter for. unborn children and Men typically. provide by expending calories to work to. provide resources for for the mother and. child so that's um I think that's how I. would go through there gotcha let me I. do have one I actually do have one. question for you Trent okay um from a. legislative perspective so would you. like to see a abortion made illegal.

I would like to see the fetuses that are. wanted uh so the fetuses that are wanted. I would just want The Unwanted ones to. be treated the same way so in places. where we say yeah if you know a guy you. know kills a pregnant woman you know. that's so sad she wanted that baby like. we need Justice for that or we protect. those children or we provide medical. care even before 20 weeks even to help.

these children uh I would just want the. law the law already provides protection. for wanted fetuses I would just wanted. to extend the same thing to The Unwanted. ones. do you think it'd be fair to give a. woman the death penalty if she had an. abortion for her twins well I don't. believe in the death penalty in general. do you think it'd be fair to put her in. jail for life. um maybe it depends uh I guess I might. say maybe the penalty would give for an. abortion well for example there was a. woman in Nebraska a few weeks ago she uh. performed got an abortion at 29 weeks.

and when she texted her mom one of the. reasons she did it was because she was. really excited to be able to fit back. into her jeans again so do you think she. should be legally punished for 29 weeks. yes sure how much. um whatever infanticide the punishment. would be I would say the same so you but. you would say the same for one week. yeah well I would say that the the. punishments that we give at one week we. can't even get an abortion in one week. five weeks I would say that the the law. and how we apply it.

um it's going to be different based on. like in that example a person that woman. seemed very callous uh very uncaring. another woman in another case. um she might respond differently sure. I'm talking strictly in the case of. murder not a or no even in the end well. give me the other example I'm curious. because whatever no go ahead I'll let. you what was the other example You're. Gonna Go oh I don't think I mean I. wasn't given the exam I'm just saying. there's going to be a lot of different. cases but but in any of these cases. would we excuse the murder of a. one-year-old child no we wouldn't but I.

would say that we we do end up giving. different punishments uh I know that. people who kill five-year-olds or. ten-year-olds sometimes the punishment. there is different than like a newborn. infant for example so I don't know. exactly what it should be but I do think. that we should treat uh the the. deliberate killing of human beings. before birth that can be established. even early on let's say five or six. weeks we should treat it with serious. gravity even on power should be the same.

as a five-week old abortion I think. should be treated the same in your view. as a five-year-old child murder yeah I. think that they should be they should. both be treated the same yeah okay but I. think that even if our even if. pro-lifers were mistaken about what kind. of punishments that we would give uh it. wouldn't show that the pro-choice. position is incorrect correct someone. could believe in animal rights for. example and be inconsistent on how to. punish people for what they do with. animals things like that even if someone.

were inconsistent and I don't think that. it's inconsistent sure we should. um it should be treated with a certain. gravity though I also think that the. laws that we pass now. um right now they do tend to focus more. on the abortion providers because we. live in a we live in a weird time sure. but I'm just asking like well let me. know what are the two what are the two. cell thing look like again. the zygote I like I want to see the. thing sure of course okay. so a woman that takes Plan B to get rid. of maybe something like this would.

suffer the same legal penalty as a woman. that murders her five-year-old child. yeah I think there could be who murders. their five-year-old child like out of. the womb I think a jury might find. things to be a little bit different. um first degree murder of a human being. Plan B it's literally premeditation you. go to take the pill you really want to. fit in your genes first the one with a. five-year-old who's just like tired of. it they're too annoying they don't want. to deal with it anymore murders a child. so that that thing and then the. five-year-old child are treated the same. in the eyes of the law the plan B versus.

the murdering of the child no because I. would say that even among born People. based on the level of indifference that. required the level of knowledge that a. person has even if you look at among. born victims of violence would you agree. that among born victims of violence the. punishment that is given it's not it's. going to be different based on I think. all of these are I think it's a. equivocation here I think that very. clearly like if somebody says do you. think that the penalty for murdering a. 10 year old and a five-year-old and a 25.

year old should be the same I would say. yeah it's murder of course they should. be treated the same now they're going to. be aggravating mitigating factors in any. murder of course but substantially I. wouldn't change the difference between. the murder of a five-year-old 15 or 25. year old and you would agree but it. would be 25 year old 15 year old. five-year-old and five cell organism for. you it would all be treated the exact. same absolutely do you think a woman who. gives birth at prom prom baby birth and. throws in the dumpster uh. should she get the same punishment as. someone who is someone who deliberately.

kills their 25 year old uh husband to. get his insurance policy or something. like that so you added a lot in it okay. fine fine I agree no because there's. aggravating factors deliberately kill. somebody for an insurance policy versus. mitigating factors of like deliveries. during uh um during a prom or whatever. right there can be aggravating or. mitigating factors that influence how we. view a particular crime same as the. killing of two of the same. five-year-olds but I'm saying like a. plan B Plan B is the same as going to. the store buying a thing of bleach going.

home Force feeding it to your kid and. then watching we don't we don't know. that exactly because Plan B has multiple. ways of acting it could stop the egg. from ovulating it could prevent stop. implantation it could yeah I would say. that'd be more like. um grave indifference uh like if you. Chuck a rock off a freeway overpass or. something like that so but oh no hold on. when you take Plan B it's not the hopes. that potentially maybe like you're very. specifically trying to effect a certain. out am I much the same that you'll be. like throwing a rock of it overpass at a.

kid no the outcome could be just. preventing yourself from ovulating it. could be yeah it's just to not become. pregnant but that the chance of that. could also be the preventing of the. implantation so the the fertilized egg. just goes out right and some yeah but I. don't think I feel like we're working. these kinds of questions I feel like. work backwards so it's like is this. individual a person like there's two. questions is this individual a person. and what should the punishments be for. harming this person I feel like we don't.

answer the first we don't answer the. punishment we don't get the answer of. the person question by answering the. punishment one first we answer is this a. person or not first. and then we figure out everything else. otherwise we're working backwards with. our intuitions. um I kind of agree but I I would argue. that you were working backwards from. intuitions as well when you presuppose a. human body that exists. um when you presuppose a human body that. exists without like parts of its brain. which I would argue is not even.

necessarily a human that you can. probably remove enough parts of a person. and you ship a thesis them into another. type of organism so if you want to work. backwards from that then obviously I'm. going to ask you some other questions. and work backwards from. um intuition around like our ability to. harm people right because I think it. because I actually think even though it. sounds strange and it sounds like it's. working backwards I actually think it's. hitting at the core of the issue when we. think of harming we think of a conscious. experience that's being. um harmed that's being hurt right if I. harm a person I'm not thinking of like.

poking a person. um that is a corpse right but people. could have massively incorrect. intuitions I remember a scene from The. Adventures of Huckleberry Finn where. Huck I think it's Aunt Polly he tells. her in the book oh there was a steamship. that explode good uh and uh she said oh. did did anyone die he said no just a few. uh Negroes well that's you know that's. not exactly what you said you get the. point and Aunt Polly says oh good I'm. glad nobody got hurt. so people can have massively incorrect.

intuition I don't think they can in your. world though because you told me that. you're a moral realist who relies on. people's intuitions and you're saying. that any two people's intuition should. be sufficiently similar enough to. upgrade an objective moral fact no that. would be on basic intuitions like so now. there's different types of it yeah tell. me the different types sure there are. like just to say that we ought to do. good and not evil that's the most basic. intuition of them all that there's just. that's not begging the question or the. things we ought to do are by definition. good a good thing is the thing you ought. to do it's like saying murder is.

unjustified when murderers. there are things you ought to do. irrespective of the consequences to you. for example uh even if you end up. suffering a great deal in some cases. there's things you ought to do or. refrain from because it just is good you. know things like that but then like for. example you ought not directly kill an. innocent human being like that's just a. general intuition everybody shares but. can you you kill human beings in war for. example because you don't mean to but.

you're trying to destroy an enemy base. there's going to be it's going to be a. little bit more difficult in the applied. cases but we have the most basic. intuition so for me if the basic. intuition is that we don't kill infants. all right we don't kill adults we don't. kill disabled humans we do kill pigs and. cows and other non-human animals uh why. is that to me the only explanation it. cannot be rooted in Consciousness. because what is the relevant difference.

between those non-human animals and the. human beings I know you say human. consciousness. but there's a difference between human. consciousness and a human who is. conscious. right yeah I just think that the some of. these intuitions that you're hitting at. for taking such a solid I guess realist. position on morality it feels like we. can find even fundamentally somebody. could argue for instance some in the. animal world if um I think I saw a video.

of a cheetah where when the babies are. born they lick them they try to get them. to kind of like move and sometimes the. baby can't move so the cheetah will just. abandon the baby and walk away right so. who's to say if a person says well I. think intuitively if a kid can't walk. then the kid isn't entitled to anything. like if you have to retreat from an area. if you need to go hunt and gather if a. child can't walk then you leave them. what if somebody comes at you with an. intuition like that say there's a tribe. where those intuitions exist how do you. figure out whose intuition is correct. well we look at how we've come to. understand human beings and there might.

be really rare cases where you only have. enough food to feed certain people. that's not what I'm talking about I'm. just saying are you are you saying. they're killing the they just leave them. there yeah they abandon the child why do. they abandon the child because they're. not able to care for the child um. because the child can't move so they. feel like until the child can move and. like acquire resources for itself the. child's not really worthy of. participating in the social contract. participating in that tribe yeah up. until the child can move they're wrong. we would call that barbaric okay but why. under what objective ground an objective.

ground that all human beings have. dignity no matter and in fact that was. the difference in ancient Rome two. thousand years ago the Romans did Place. disabled children in the wilderness for. them to be eaten by animals and. Christians went and rescued them because. they recognized all human beings had. this dignity regardless of what they can. do but I'm asking you how do you resolve. that difference that disagreement and. intuition I don't think you can. what are you gonna say it's wrong or. barbaric but that's the same thing you. could have somebody who says look I.

think that marriage just means you have. 24 7 access to your wife so hold on we. don't we don't need another analogy just. on that example somebody says if it's a. disabled child if they can't walk on. their own I should be able to just leave. it and carry on because the child's. never going to be able to walk or. whatever why why are they wrong that's. their intuition intuition points there. they were the reason why I'm. highlighting this because you told me. earlier you made it because then we. could use reasoning and we could say. look when you as an adult when you get. injured we try to help you out we don't. abandon you so then there's an example. where we might apply moral reasoning to. help them see they're being incoherent. for example why wouldn't you apply this.

to someone who's just a younger version. of you yeah but but they'll say I can. walk again what about for disabled. children you said the Romans did this. they left a disabled child right and the. person and then you what if you say to. the person well you know you wouldn't. want this to happen if you were to say. something like yeah that's part of the. agreement actually if I was disabled I. would expect to be left yeah I would. agree and that's and like I said there's. going to be cases where people have a. consistent. horrifying morality they're going to. answering is absolutely begging the. question I want to ask you yeah I think. it's horrifying to leave children just. just because you can't stand the side of.

their disability and you think they're. not worthy because that might be the. case but they might argue that it's. horrifying that maybe they come to. America and they say they say they can. kiss my ass that's fine but they say. you've got a society where there are. people that are able-bodied that are. capable of helping in society you don't. have the medical resources for them but. you're in spending billions of dollars. on disabled children they're gonna die. before they hit nine years old why do. you have homeless people on the street. but you're spending money on disabled. children that are going to die in a few. years anyway that might be horrified. about that then my question goes back to. you because you told me earlier that. intuition is how we determine moral fact.

and what I'm saying is morality is the. only qualia I guess that exists where we. can only reconcile it with arguments I. don't have to argue with you about. gravity I don't have to argue with you. about the color of something I don't. have to argue with you about how loud. something is but for moral fact this is. why I believe it's subjective and not. objective you can never wreck and sell. disagreements between two parties that's. different intuition people do this all. the time the C.S Lewis the Christian. Author gave lots of examples of this.

that when people have a disagreement. they'll appeal to Universal Norms. they'll say I was sitting in that seat. first it's not fair for you to take it. um I get I helped you with this you. ought to help me with that when people. have moral disagreements they don't just. they don't just resort to their mere. opinions about the matter or what they. like or dislike most people appeal to. some kind of universal Norm to apply and. they assume it to be true for everybody. yeah but you people would appeal to. those same Universal Norms in a time. period where women couldn't vote and.

black people were slaves so what does it. say about the appeal to that Universal. Norm it's not doesn't seem to be a. universal Norm they're appealing to here. it seems to be it's actually if anything. I would argue it's the non-cognitivist. position where they pretend to appeal to. a universal room but really it's what do. I prefer because I bet somebody's used. that phrase of like you can't take my. seat that's not fair but they would say. somebody like Rosa Parks should always. be in the back of the bus right and then. that's where you have people like. Abraham Lincoln again who made great. arguments to say if you think a black. person can be a slaved because they have. a darker skin than you you are now going. to be a slave to the person whose skin.

is lighter than you and apply the moral. reasoning but let me the about the. objectivity do you think in the past. 2000 years human beings have gotten. better at mathematics and our. mathematical knowledge has grown yes. okay so our knowledge of mathematics has. grown we've gotten better at mathematics. and math is objective right. when you say objective what can you what. do you mean by that we don't determine. mathematical truths by a social contract. we just math is all built on systems of. Logics right it's built on tautologies.

right one equals one one plus one equals. two and then from those tautologies we. build out systems of mathematics but. it's a lot it's a thing constructed with. Logics I think Opera we all have Logics. in our head things like non-cuts but. it's all objective it's all object it's. objectively true even if it's built on. these axioms objective with respect to. systems of Logics yes yeah but we don't. create the systems of logic we discover. them. I mean I mean people smarter than Mabel. Mark are you anti-realism versus. mathematical realism I don't know if. there's like an objectively correct. answer there well there's a difference. between whether the mathematical objects.

exist or not that's I mean. but my understanding is mathematics is. built on tautologies that we label. something as something else and then we. build it using Logics that our Priory. were all gifted with all humans have. some basic Logics of identity and. non-contradiction excluded metal there's. like very basic like we can't fathom. something that it has contradictory. Properties or we can't fathom one thing. being another thing right um and based. off those Basics logical faculty we. build let's go let's get back to Brass. tax okay whose view on abortion leads to.

more unusual cases of killing or. exploiting beings because I asked you a. bunch of questions about and you. admitted that you can create unconscious. human beings Harvest their organs make. them sex dolls kill newborns who have. never been conscious you're not sure. about one-year-olds who've lost their. memories uh you there's no obligation to. give Medical Care to an encephalic child. if we discovered it I think your view.

leads to a lot of. counter-intuitive views that lead to a. lot of killing and exploitation people. would disagree with would you agree that. there's more of that in your view than. my view no okay can you give examples of. where my view leads to weird cases of. killing or exploiting. killing or exploiting I would argue that. the exploitation is forcing women to. gestate and give birth to things that. aren't even persons yet so basically. mandating that women as soon as they. think they might even possibly be. pregnant that they have now a moral. obligation to find out if they are.

pregnant and if they are that they're. forced to carry that thing to term. regardless of how many precautions they. took to prevent getting pregnant I also. think we're placing a very high burden. on our medical system where we now have. an obligation to care for every single. zygote up to the moment metabolism. terminates so if a woman feels like she. might be having a miscarriage that woman. can't go to the bathroom and miscarry. she needs to go to a hospital. immediately even if it's six weeks old. even if it's 10 weeks old that. miscarriage needs to be dealt with the. same way that you would operate on any. living human being you need to extract. it you need to put it in a dish and you.

need to feed that and keep it alive for. as long as the metabolic functions will. carry on well why can't I just say. hospitals are required to give a woman. progesterone to help her child we don't. have the technology yet to extract and. you were asking me to give you the. potential Harms in your world now you. want to reframe it in the best possible. light but I'm just saying in your world. there's hospitals and hospitals and. hospitals dedicated to keeping alive. potentially these 64 128 cell organisms. that may never even develop into people. so you're saying that the weirdest thing. about my view is that we might care. about human beings too much the weirdest. thing in well that's one way to phrase.

it but I would argue that you're not. caring about the women human beings. you're caring about the the 12 cell. organisms that now need to be definitely. cared for in hospitals in Petri dishes. well under my view what about those. women who want those children to live. shouldn't they be able to go to the. hospital and get help in my view they. can go to the hospital get help and I I. agree that's what makes it really. nothing about what you just said because. your view isn't actually applied most. people in the world outside there don't. hold your view they have a schizophrenic. view they give respect and care and. legal protection to Hume unborn humans.

that are wanted and then create. justification to Kill The Unwanted ones. that's great I mean you can ask them. about their schizophrenia views but I. think I'm pretty consistent through and. through for all right and I agree that's. why people both of our views I think. people should abandon their. schizophrenic View and pick one of our. consistent views and I think mine is. more Humane sure and I don't like the. one where a woman that has an abortion. of a whatever that was or takes Plan B. might be charged with first degree. murder fine charge with something else. but it would be first degree murder why. not we we live like because I think that. if a woman pre if she determines that.

she wants to go and murder her. one-year-old I think she should be. charged with first degree murder I don't. think that should be the same penalty. after the Civil War all the Confederate. soldiers could have been thrown in. prison for treason or hung they were. talking about after the Civil War no. very easy we don't even in an analogy. it's a very basically. it's not simple because it's so simple. it's simple in your view if a person has. an abortion they're murdering that's a. really simple thing but we have a. widespread we live in a society that has. a widespread disagreement about that and. so to come to a national consensus about.

how we treat The Unborn we're going to. have to do that in compromise legal ways. just like America had to do in. reconstruction after the Civil War when. there were massive disagreements in our. country I think we're just we're at a. similar Crossroad that's fine we can. argue that but that's a that's like a. sophisticated political legal argument. your moral argument your ideal political. legal world is one in which a woman who. has an abortion uh twins at 14 weeks is. charged with double homicide double.

first degree murder we can both do the. intuition pumping thing that because. here's the problem both you could say. like oh yeah like there's the two cell. embryo that's crazy to charge up a. murder well under your view killing this. thing is not murder. whereas that's going to really mess with. a lot of people's intuitions when they. see that so I think less people's. intuitions than those that would say. that having a miscarriage so for. instance here's another thing you would. agree that every single miscarriage. should probably demand an investigation. for a potential homicide correct no dude.

we don't do that even for born children. absolutely do if a born child dies you. don't think CPS or investigators are. automatically involved in that not. necessarily almost every a one-year-old. child dies in a house right of course. well you're going to here's the other. problem here we have. um when it when a child dies we have the. technology to take a newborn and do an. autopsy to determine what happened to. that human being okay uh when it comes. to a first trimester miscarriage we.

don't do those investigations because we. don't have the technology you absolutely. can do those investigations how how a. woman comes into the hospital and she. miscarries right you mean she has she is. miscarrying her she's she's miscarrying. in the process of miscarrying right she. has intense stomach pain she goes sure. she goes there wants progesterone. first thing we should do is we should. pull some tubes of blood we need to. check for blood alcohol content right. make sure she's not drinking at all. could probably send somebody to the. house to check for I don't know any type. of thing she might have there um any.

sort of evidence of Foul Play it could. be hangers it could be you know whatever. else you might be using but this is an. investigation that needs to be done. every single time somebody is. miscarrying so you would subject every. single woman that's having a miscarriage. to a full-on police investigation the. same way we would for what you mentioned. that well for a one you'll try to get an. autopsy an autopsy is an investigation. for having an investigation to figure. out cause of death I think that would be. a harm that would exist in your world. that I think that we but here's the. thing prior when abortion was illegal. and even now in cases where it is.

illegal uh we we don't do those things. it's most most people don't share that. intuition that we need to do that in. order to protect unborn human beings but. you would want that for you should want. that though shouldn't you yeah I think. that's fine but you can't determine no. no not fine you're Weasley out of that. it's not that it would be fine if. somebody said do you think we should. investigate when two-year-old children. are killed or when two or two year old. children are dead my answer and I don't. think your answer would be yeah that'd. be fine you would say absolutely okay I. would want that to happen right yeah but. your moral standard needs to be the.

exact same for the six-week fetus but. here's the other problem we would have. to make sure that in our Zeal to look. for Crime we don't. um over uh prosecute parents so for. example when prosecutors will. investigate SIDS uh sudden infant death. syndrome or shaken baby syndrome uh a. lot of times they'll get those things. wrong for example so we would have to. put the burden very high so as to not. falsely accuse people of manslaughter.

because you're familiar yeah but nothing. you just said you should still. investigate I agree but we don't have. that we do not have the tech maybe as a. future hypothetical yeah sure fine but. we don't have that now we we have the. body everything I just said you can. totally do right now if the woman if a. woman is miscarrying against the. hospital you pull a tube of blood to see. check her blood alcohol that if she's. intoxicated that doesn't prove that. caused the miscarriage so many people. are intoxicated and they give birth to. babies and many people miscarry who are. not intoxicated so that doesn't prove. anything sure but you could look at it.

as a I wouldn't pass on a court of law. where you need Beyond A Reasonable Doubt. um if you have a child at home and. you're neglecting the child it might be. hard to say for one way or another what. caused the death of the child but at the. very least you can start getting up to. like manslaughter charges if you've. neglected but how do you tell what what. exactly what part of neglect actually. killed them was it the lack of water. them that lack of Medical Care well you. can just say you have a you know you. have a seven-year-old that weighs 28. pounds uh and you then get testimony why. do they weigh 28 pounds well because we.

feed them once every four days there you. have your evidence you don't have. anything similar for the wanton. destruction of of human embryos or. things like that but once again I'm. going to go back to the main we have to. get back to the basement here. whose view of personhood makes more. sense or not like there's nothing. improbable about my my view like I would. say my view makes the most sense even if. you do talk about the the future like. ours or the person view.

um that the re and once again I you I. don't think you can answer this question. really which one you didn't answer. anything I have answered you I answer. your questions you didn't like my. answers well because you didn't really. answer them but go ahead but I'll answer. any hard question give me yeah yeah a. baby born missing which part now no it's. it's going back to you're grounding it. in consciousness. uh but only for humans who are conscious. because the human conscious experience. yes. can you describe what a human conscious.

experience is like probably not I don't. think anybody can but there seems to be. a conscious experience that we have that. all humans share why do human conscious. experiences matter than other conscious. experiences because we have a more. sophisticated form of sapience that is. different than the kind of experience. that every other animal on the planet. has how do you know that well what how. can you describe what they're like that. you how do you know that. how do I know that because I have a. sophistic because we can do cognitive. testing we can test for types of. socialization we utilize language in. ways that animals don't we utilize tools.

we have abstract Concepts that we can. acknowledge we can acknowledge yeah it's. like a million different ways your. Consciousness matters more than the. consciousness of a pig because you can. do things pigs can't do well I'm a kind. of thing a human yeah that is different. that my conscious experience that kind. of conscious experience is a lot. different and kind to a pig or a horse. or a dog or even a seal or a dolphin or. an apia so yours Rises to the level of. deserving legal protection theirs don't. yes The Human Experience does over the.

pig or the horse yes but I mean it I. just think it would be obvious to anyone. who's around animals or infants that. this 26 week old fetus. does not have a level of conscious. experience that rises anywhere to the. level of a pig or a seal or a dog but I. think in an unconscious experience is it. not it is a human who is having a. conscious experience do you think that. is a lizard experience is a lizard do. you think that's having a lizard's. experience or how what would you. describe their conscious experience it's.

having a Dem it's probably diminished. it's aware of heat light cold familiar. sound unfamiliar sound pressure. uh I think a lot of those come from like. the brain stem like you can get a lot of. awareness of like heat and cold and even. basic sensory movements down but this is. prefrontal cortex development what do. you think that 26 week old fuses. conscious experiences then closer to. that of a human than a dog or a lizard. in what way and that it it all you're. asking me to Define like the subjective.

human country food is difficult I don't. think anybody can it's the hard problem. of Consciousness I don't think I can. fully encapsulate what it means to be a. human but it seems to be the case that. the conscious experience that we have is. markedly different from every other. animal on the planet you seem to be. claiming that a baby's conscious. experience is so diminished that it. resembles that of a reptile or maybe. like a baby dog I don't think that we go. from Lizard to dog to ape to human I. think we might have a diminished human. conscious experience but it's like. growing the neurons and the synapses you.

started developing and as we grow and. develop that it becomes more apparent. but it's there just to restart would you. agree we have primitive conscious. experiences and they become more. advanced over time. sure but it's all a huge all under the. umbrella of the human conscious. experience none of it is the experience. of a dog but I feel like you're using. the word human there here's my problem. with your argument you use human in. order to get rid of the animals here's. the thing here's what I think you're. doing when you use human conscious.

experience as a criteria you use the. word human to get rid of animals that. are very conscious and aware can do. tricks have memories they don't have a. Sapient conscious experience like a. human does none of them do not even. remotely close if you uh to shortcut all. this if you really if you came with this. argument you wanted to fight really hard. and you actually just dominated and. thrashed this part of the argument the. only thing you would do is you would get. me to move the abortion Edge later and. later later it would become a Daniel. Dennett aboard at two years or it'd be. Peter it would be yeah.

infanticide yeah that's exactly that's. exactly what I'm doing sure and if you. want to push it further out I'm not. compelled by either you can but it's not. getting me to a point to where the 12. self thing needs to be kept on live in a. Petri dish or women need to be charged. with double homicide if they have an. abortion at 12 weeks on its years. because I think most people will find it. arbitrary that you so let me finish what. I was saying then I'll I'll go back to. you you use human conscious experience. you use conscious experience to. disqualify fetuses and you use human to.

disqualify the animals even though the. human I think most people listening. would say the the time in our. development when we have conscious. experiences that are richer and more. complex than a chimp or a dog is long. after birth that's why I believe Peter. Singer is consistent when he would say. what matters is that you have. rationality you have abilities non-human. animals don't have so he says. infanticide is fine however most people. have an unbreakable intuition that.

infanticide is wrong and so in order to. keep that intuition if you're going to. protect human infants because they will. have rational abilities in the future. even though they don't have them now. you'd have to apply that to fetuses and. embryos as well okay I completely. disagree but we can loop back on this if. you want no why what's wrong with this. argument what we value our rational. abilities beyond what non-human animals. can do that does not develop in humans. till sometime after birth therefore. infanticide is permissible what's wrong.

with that argument the what because what. I've said before is there is a kind of. human conscious experience that kind of. experience starts about 20 weeks it. might be in some diminished capacity as. you said but that experience has begun. that at some point you as a person with. that experience at 20 weeks that that. same conscious experience that starts. there that's the thing that we protect. up until the point where you can no. longer deploy and you think that let's. say a newborn who's stuck at the newborn. level forever when you say newborn. newborn newly born human being yes it. would that would be a protected.

experience yeah and so even if so that's. where I can't understand it a newborn. stuck at that level forever newborn. infant disabled. person deserves legal protection okay. because it's all under that bucket of. human conscious experience yes because. it is a human be no your argument seems. to be because it is a human who is. conscious. I think humans that are conscious are. always having a human conscious. experience correct if you want to give. me an analogy or take a human you can. plant a dog brain into it then maybe.

we're having a different conversation. but when a human speaks do they always. utter human speech. he that it's we're getting. definitionally but when a human speaks. it's always a human speaking right. you're what the argument you're making. is a bit circular here what makes human. speech unique would be grammar syntax uh. abstract Concepts idea language or that. kind of human speech a human could utter. all different kinds of sounds or but.

it's always going to be a human speaking. right but what someone would say is why. does it matter that why does a newborn. the fact that you would say look a human. and someone who's stuck at the newborn. level okay they are a human who is. conscious even men they are a human who. is minimally conscious therefore they. deserve legal protection. or which for what the news someone's. stuck at a newborn they are a human who. is minimally conscious.

but an animal who is more conscious does. not have rights because I don't I don't. yeah I reject that comparison that like. an animal is more conscious they're. having an animal conscious experience it. doesn't resemble a human conscious. experience. well what you say you reject it but then. you can't tell me like what is that. newborn infant's experience so that you. know that they a fully formed conscious. experience of any animal doesn't reach. the level of sapience or sophistication. of of a human conscious experience like.

you of a human conscious experience like. you or I are having correct but a. newborn what kind of experiences do they. have I I don't know if you take a. newborn and stick it there and then. train it for a while I imagine that even. their subjective conscious experience. can be closer to ours than a lizard or a. monkey. so you think that a human newborn is. more intelligent let's say like a. chimpanzee intelligent is not the right. or more aware of the world more having a. human conscious experience than yes than. the all you're saying is it's more of a.

genetic human being that's true but so. what if that's what makes it if that's. what makes you valuable then all genetic. human beings need to be valuable you're. a human conscious Human Experience is. doing all the work in your argument well. of course because I value humans and. human life yeah so it's doing a lot for. both of our arguments and genetics is. our definition of human is a certain. genetic code so of course the human. conscious experience is necessarily. going to be deployed by a genetic human. right. right it's uh humans will have various. levels of conscious experience through.

their lives they'll start very minimally. it'll grow and they might lose it and. maybe even temporarily lose it or. permanently lose it and I do think your. position is going to be inconsistent. here if someone temporarily loses it and. has to regrow parts of their brain to. get it back because at that point. they're no longer a person anymore but. most of us would give them medicine and. care to help them. um yeah probably. but then here's a question let's let's. look at that analogy from another angle. because I don't think that analogy is.

doing as much work as you wanted to be. let's say that there's a person who gets. their head chopped off but we can keep. their body alive would you say that the. person is still alive if the body is. still alive but the head is chopped off. I would say that as an organist so their. their head is probably decomposing now. right and then toss in the trash it's. good instead yeah. yeah I would say that them as an. organism uh they have died or we are. keeping them we are keeping the organism. alive through artificial life sport like.

a heart lung machine you say the. organism so my head Steven's head gets. cut off but my body yeah okay you're. dead what if there was a surgery where. we had developed we could create new. human heads and then put it back on with. like a new brain and everything. would you say that you have an. obligation to keep the body alive so. that you can reattach a new head in the. future. the obligation to keep a headless trunk. alive to put a because that's the. equivalent to you talking about the. child being born without the brain but. you can give it a drug I would say that. if you cut off somebody's head and you.

have their trunk there uh the organism. may be alive I would say the organism. probably isn't alive you're keeping all. of the organs alive like if you keep. someone who's brain dead on a heart lung. machine they're not going to stay alive. indefinitely they're only going to stay. alive maybe for two to five days uh in. order to harvest organs well it's still. going to decompose you can feed them. right no not if somebody as long as the. brain stem isn't true but persistent. vegetative state can be fed with a tube. indefinitely that's different someone. with a persistent vegetative state is a.

disabled human being so there are they. are uh there's brainstem activity yeah. there's brainstem activity they're. they're wakeful they can digest food. well I don't believe so I think they. need um they need to be fed the tube and. everything they can digest it oh oh okay. sure a brain dead person cannot do that. it's just gonna sit in the gullet. they're going to decompose okay but. they're a person still. okay they're albeit they're a disabled. person. do you think that people in persistent. vegetative States assuming you know. they're never going to wake up should. they be kept alive indefinitely as well.

I think they should be I think that they. should be given food uh water. um they should be given Comfort Care. indefinitely no not necessarily kept. alive indefinitely because there might. be interventions that um Arness aren't. as helpful for them I think there's a. difference between I think that we. should never dehydrate anyone to death. sure so a person I know it's 22 years. old persistent vegetative state they. could live to 75 they're always going to. be in bed should that person be careful.

for the remain of their life well we. don't know that they'll live to 75 the. problem is hypothetical well no you shut. down a lot of my hypothesis I did and I. answered every single hypothetical no. you complained about a lot I did. complain no no I complain because. they're intuition pumps but tell me one. of those I didn't answer. no no no tell me one of those people. explained about you put it I watched you. put a check mark next to every single. one I answered I saw you do it so I know. I answered you complained about a. toddler for example I did complain but I. answered it so you can complain about. mine but you have to answer it a 20 year. old can be kept up until 75 yeah do we. have a moral obligation to keep feeding.

them for for 55 years in a hospital bed. and you can complain about it but you. should answer the question there's two. ways that I could respond to this okay. one would be my view and two would be. another pro-life field I want to know. your view because I'm talking to you. that's well someone could defend a. position might say you know what I don't. care about someone I want trans answer. no because I want people to be pro-life. even if they don't agree with everything. I believe okay but I'm asking you right. that's fine okay I think we should never. stop I think we should not starve. somebody to death I think that in some. cases food will not help someone because. they can't digest we're not talking. about those cases I'm just saying we.

could keep somebody alive from 25 to 75. 50 years in a bad if we feed them and. water them yeah I I don't think we. should starve disabled people of death. that's my answer to that okay but number. two if you don't agree with that. intuition you could just have the view. that I laid out earlier which is that. you are no longer a person if it is. impossible for you to be conscious in. the future so that means you are a. person whenever it is possible for you. to be conscious in the future and that. would apply for nearly all unborn human. beings for fertilization onward so even. if someone didn't agree with me about. PBS they could still agree with you.

about withholding care for PVS but it's. different because there's a difference. between someone who will never again be. conscious and someone who will be. conscious at some point there's a. difference there. true but I mean like a sperm given the. right conditions like being an. environment with an egg will also at. some point exhibit Consciousness the. same way that a single cell organism. connected to a mother because a single. cell organ I will never develop on its. own sperm never becomes conscious in. order as a single cell thing it has to. be connected to a mom on its own never. the organism that was once one cell does.

become conscious because there's. continuity there the sperm and there's. no continuity between a sperm and a. zygote where were you ever once a. newborn. yeah well how could let me ask this like. if you took a car and replaced 90 of its. parts or added 90 new parts is it the. same car I don't know it's a ship of. Theseus question I'm not sure right but. you might have 90 new parts from being a. newborn but you're still the same. newborn you're still that same person.

sure why though that's a really. interesting question it is it's probably. because of the continuity of the. conscious experience I would say it's. because you're the same organism no yeah. no it's the it's the continuity of the. conscious experience do you remember. being a newborn nope a lot of continuity. there because I don't remember there's. no continuity it's am I not a person. when I'm blackout drunk. well you might you might not remember. things but it seems like but you are. you're lacking uh some of these elements. it seems very very weak that that's the.

continuity and also you think people. with Alzheimer's are no longer people or. no I believe that they they are persons. they're this they are the same living. being my problem is if you're going to. want to say oh well having the same. psychological experiences that's what. makes you the same person over time well. then you get really like you wanted to. cut off heads and put them on other. bodies well what if we take your brain. and split it in two and then put it into. two corpses and they both have your. psychological connections are they both. you.

it's a really tough one maybe you split. into two U's but. that seems like a contradiction that you. could do two contradictory things at the. same time they can't both be you you. can't be identical to more than one. thing well if you wanna if you want to. fight there we're not fighting over. human conscious experience now we're. getting into the nitty-gritty of human. identity what you are is a conscious. experience might not even be one. coherent Consciousness there might be 10. or 15 different things running under the. hood if you take enough drugs you can. visit all of those parts yes let me ask. you but that doesn't get us any farther. or closer to like is it possible is it.

possible for the brain to have more than. one person in it more than one conscious. experience. um it seems like there's some research. exploring that maybe it's possible but I. don't think we perceive it that way. right because there are a split brain or. what's it called like the corpsum Corpus. Callas corpus callosum that once if. that's divided or split for some reason. you could do a split brain experiment. with different halves of your brain seem. to be aware of different things so. potentially it could be we're just not. aware of it I guess right so I was going. back to the beginning here I'm rejecting. your view that sperm and egg are us uh.

those are things that became us and. there's an explanation for that my. explanation relies in the fact that you. are the same living organism that per. that organisms maintain their identity. over time in spite of many changes you. are the same. biological human being was born of your. mother. decades ago even though you have. radically different parts and abilities. now because you're that same living. being but I would say that you were that. also that same living being existed nine. months prior to the birth as well and I. understand what you're saying I'm just.

saying that ontologically what what your. position demands is that you believe. that a single cell organism is of a kind. that is similar to a 99 year old human. being and that those things belong to. the same category but the single cell. organism is entirely different from. aceper are they both human or is the is. the is the zygote and the 99 year old. are they both human organisms. definitionally so so they are the same. but I mean is also a human organ they. are the no that's not true it is of. course it is what do you mean what is a. human organism I don't know we can bring.

up the dictionary we want but. and I would say an organism is a. collection of parts that work together. for the good of the whole a corpse no. longer has that property. okay but I mean neither does a single. cell organism I can't work to do. anything absent how does it grow in the. womb by getting nutrients from the. mother the mother's body is probably. doing more at that point that's the same. as you and I when we go when we go to In. and Out and we eat food we we gotta do. that to keep growing and develop it. doesn't have to be in and out but we. need nutrients and environment to. continue developing also yeah but I. think there's a bit of a difference when. I eat a cheeseburger my body doesn't.

become a cheeseburger but a single cell. organism is literally one single cell. the nutrients coming in from the mother. more than even the sum of everything it. doesn't turn into sugar or glucose it. creates new cells and it creates new. elements of its organisms out of the. nutrients that are coming in but there's. more for a single cell organism there's. more nutrients being pumped into it than. there even is an organism right it's. pretty amazing but that doesn't mean. that it's not a a biological human being. and it doesn't mean that it has less. value than you or I have just because it. goes has much more developing it needs.

to do sure I just don't think that a. single cell organism is more different. than a sperm or an egg than it is. similar to a 50 year old developed. person and I think we both agree three. it at least scientifically they're very. different it belongs to a different. biological category than sperm or egg. sperm and egg our body parts their. gametes and embryo isn't human organism. and so when we talk about whether. persons or rights need to be given we. don't even talk about whether tissue has. human rights we only talk about whether.

human organisms do. um. I guess using a definition of organism. but I still think we talk because even. if you're talking about rights if we. look at people that are brain dead or. people in persistent vegetative States. legally they're afforded different. rights than people who are fully. cognizant conscious of their. surroundings right well it would never. be legal to kill a person or deprive a. person of food. that's like a normal thinking ordinary. conscious human being but it would be. for people in PBS or people who are. brain well no people people debate about. whether uh whether food that is given to.

someone in a persistent vegetative state. is medicine or whether it's food people. I think that people will try to Define. being uh permanently unconscious as. death instead of disability and honestly. many people who are disabled notice this. in trying to redefine disability so we. don't have to care for those who are. disabled. okay I think that's a fundamentally. different argument but no because there. is a dispute many people will care for.

those who are in persistent vegetative. States and also the question that. they'll never come out of it is I'm. willing to entertain the hypothetical. but it is that it's a hypothetical you. have people like Martin Pastorius for. example you ever heard of him nope he. was 12 years old South African he ended. up in a persistent vegetative state is a. great story you should read it's very. inspiring he has a book called ghost boy. he was in a persistent vegetative state. maybe for meningitis and they're like. what do we do with him so they fed him. took him to a home where he was cared.

for by the time he was about 15 he. became conscious again but he was locked. in couldn't communicate with anybody so. they didn't care about him at the group. home so they just sat in front of the TV. and he watched reruns of Barney every. day and he thought he was going to go. mad but he decided you know what I'm not. going to do this I'm going to Will. to do something to get attention to. myself and eventually He restored some. motor skills came out of his persistent. vegetative state and now he races. wheelchairs he's a web developer and. he's married so part of the thing when.

it comes to caring for those in. persistent vegetative States while yeah. some people never come out of it. some do and the prognosis maybe is like. two to five years someone lasting more. than a decade is very very rare so we. care for these people because we're not. sure what's going to happen to them it's. completely different from a brain dead. yeah but I agree with everything you. just said but I think that last sentence. just illustrated my point completely. what do you mean we care for those. people because we don't know what's. going to happen with them the question. is whether or not they're going to wake. up it's whether or not I should have. rephrased that because we don't care.

about them in their current state it's. only based on if they're going to become. awake again in that future State no. because my view would be even if they. didn't ever. return from that state I would say that. there is a difference there that they. are not. [Music]. um. foregone like a brain dead individual. who is now decomposing we don't give. them medical care anymore we might keep. their body alive to harvest their organs. sure I'm just saying there's a reason. why you gave me the story of a boy that. woke up and not the inspiring story of.

somebody that lived in a persistent. vegetative state for 30 years and then. died well so it could be inspiring that. you care for this individual and that. you that you don't want to you don't. want to starve them to death you don't. want to actively kill them it could be. but we were leaning on intuitions pretty. heavily and it's pretty telling that. those stories don't typically exist well. usually we like the people that wake up. but we have to be careful because I feel. like the intuition here is oh uh I. wouldn't want to live in that state or. we think that that life is not worth. living in a persistent vegetative state. we could easily reach that intuition for. locked in for quadriplegics a lot of.

people make those similar intuitions and. I would be very. reticent to move that into saying oh. well we only care for disabled people if. we think their lives are worth living. that's a dangerous road to go down no. it's not we do studies even people with. locked in syndrome generally support. decent quality of life like we can do. empirical analysis on these people we. can do studies case studies broad. longitudinal studies people tend to. adjust to their level and have like a. decent quality of life but some people. do want to die right and if you want to. die you should probably have that option. but there's a difference between. somebody wanted to diverse and saying we.

ought to kill everybody with this type. of thing do we have but do we do this. some people who want to die we say. that's not a good enough reason I know. your girlfriend left you but that's not. a good enough reason oh you are you have. a bone cancer or something like that or. even you're locked in you don't want to. live fine we make judgments there about. you're giving me a good reason and. you're not I think that's a dangerous. road to go down to decide whose reason. is good enough to help them out of. suicide and whose reason is good enough. to help them into it okay I would.

disagree I would say it's a really. dangerous road to compel people to live. for the happiness of others around them. I don't and I don't believe that I don't. believe we should compel people I think. that's what you're saying is compelling. somebody to live if you're saying you're. not allowed to take your life you're. depriving them of arguably one of the. most fundamental negative doctors. shouldn't kill people I'm saying doctors. shouldn't be Killers sure should a. person be allowed to kill themselves. they should be allowed to refuse. disproportionate care for are they. allowed to jump off a building or a. bridge no. so they shouldn't be allowed to kill. themselves no they shouldn't be around. you know they should not do you think. they should be do you think people. should be allowed to kill themselves.

yeah I think depending on the. circumstances yes. for should they be allowed to kill. themselves for any reason for any reason. probably they don't want to live. probably not why because I think that. oftentimes the desire to kill yourself. without a good stated reason is probably. more evidence or some sort of mental. problem that should probably be. alleviated before the person can make. that decision so it'd be an issue of we. would argue from an informed consent. perspective that you're not capable of. making this decision because you're in a. mentally compromised state but if you. take somebody who's 75 they've got stage. four lung cancer they've got six to 12.

months ahead of them they know it's. going to be an excruciating experience. and they don't even desire to live. anymore do you think that person should. be deprived of the right to kill. themselves jump off a building jump off. a bridge because that's in your world. they would have to do that because the. doctors I don't make judgments that oh. yeah you have a good reason to kill. yourself because then what about the. quadriplegic who says you're a 75 year. old with cancer what about the 20 year. old who will never move their arms and. legs again and says I can't live like. this or my whole life should they just. be allowed to roll themselves into the. pool. I think that there is plenty of research.

that shows that people that are even. quadriplegics live Health what did they. say screw your research I don't want to. live this way. if they um then there's I think it's. more likely that there's something. unhealthy with them so they shouldn't be. allowed why can't we say that for the 75. year old you know because I think that. for 75 year olds we do know the. prognosis with stage four lung cancer at. certain stages we could say it is going. to be bad and you are going to die with. six to 12 months right but if anything. so you're saying that I'm saying that a. person who's 75 someone should be. allowed to kill themselves so they don't. have to go through six months of Agony. but a quadriplegic who might go through.

60 years of agony no go because it's. because at the end of the day I'm making. an empirical reference I can say if we. look at the pool of people that are. quadriplegic at this age 99 of them live. and have decently happy fulfilling lives. so you're saying people don't really. have a right to make autonomous medical. choices they only have the right to do. what you think the research says no they. have the right to make a decision but. whether or not the decision is informed. or not as important just like we would. say a 12 year old doesn't have the right. to make certain decisions because we. don't think their consent is informed. right we would say the same for a 20.

year old that wants to kill themselves. because they might be disabled probably. isn't the same as a 75 year old who does. have all the information who wants to. make that same decision right and your. world you're saying a 75 year old with. stage four cancer is not allowed to kill. them I am saying that I don't make. distinctions about who has a good enough. reason to kill themselves and who. doesn't I help anyone who is suicidal to. not be suicidal now if you have an 85. year old who's why they get 10 years. older does 75 a 75 year old who is.

experiencing organ failure and they. don't want to do dialysis us because it. might give them a few more months and. it's expensive and painful no they might. not do dialysis or you have someone who. is very very elderly and says you know. what if I go into cardiac arrest don't. give me CPR that I think that could be. all of your examples are very easy ways. out sometimes people are going to die in. ways that aren't going to be quick it's. going to be six months right so for a. person that's going to die in six months. are you saying you're compelled to. suffer for that entire six months or. eyes it's fine to well we're getting.

away from the topic no no hold on you. keep saying that okay I'm gonna force. you to answer this question I'll answer. it but you're not answering it though. you keep you aggravating mitigating. circumstances and then you try to change. something else I will answer the. question but you'll agree euthanasia is. a different topic than abortion well. yeah of course I'll answer I just want. the answer to this question yeah a. couple questions the answer is I don't. think doctors should kill people. especially when that is an option for. doctors to do it becomes tempting for. that to be the prescribed course of. treatment instead of more expensive.

things to keep somebody alive how. however I do think that you could. administer medication and pain. medication to ease someone's suffering. even if it has a secondary effect of. shortening their lifespan. okay so you would say a 75 year old who. has the prognosis is six months of. suffering he's not allowed to terminate. his life I don't think we should kill. people who are suicidal I don't know why. you can't answer that question because. it's it's a I'm not talking about people. that are suicidal I'm saying he doesn't. want to live because his prognosis is.

six months of suffering. so people with a prognosis of six months. of suffering and then dying they're not. allowed to terminate their life early. you would deprive them of that right. I believe I would like to answer the. question and it will sufficiently answer. what you're asking me in the way that I. am most comfortable okay if someone. wants to commit suicide they don't want. to live because life is has too much. suffering for them okay this person. wants to die they want to kill. themselves because of too much suffering. correct yeah okay I am not in the. business of saying who has not too much.

suffering or not enough suffering in. many cases those who would kill. themselves it's not because of physical. pain it's because of loss of it's lost. another that's fine so my point is. because then there's no stopping point. six months 12 months five years ten. years there's no principal place to stop. again but you also you can't say that. I'm not in the business of because you. are you're in the business of saying. none of you can make that decision right. I treat I want to treat All Humans. equally so anyone who is suicidal their. life has value I'm going to help them. out of a destructive decision well when. you say their life has value yes but not.

they're not the ones who decide when it. has value or not that's you're deciding. that for them no I say every human being. has intrinsic value yeah part of the. value of my life is I should get to. decide when I want to go I want to leave. on my terms but you're saying no no no. I'm going to decide for you you can't do. that you don't have that right I'm going. to say we both do that because you're. doing that with your research Gambit to. say no no no you with your reason that's. if it's anything that's not six months. left to live of a terminal illness it. turns out you don't have the research. shows you don't have a good enough.

reason both of us are doing that I'm. just applying it to every single human. being you're trying to apply it to just. a few and there's no way you're able to. really do that. um if you want we can dive into that I. can give you a super clear criteria but. let's uh do a couple chats here so we. have Bender the offender hey thank you. man for the soup chat on the topic topic. of Consciousness it is important to. remember that it is still not fully. understood past its basic definition of. awareness of internal and external. existence Consciousness is still very.

complex as we have a motorcycle going by. thank you Bender the offender and I. don't know if any if you guys have a. response to that but uh yeah I mean. obviously just a statement I think the. brain is still like the most complicated. un understood ununderstood misunderstood. or lack of understood organism or thing. in the universe so far except for maybe. black holes. we have Richie Constitution here hey. thank you for the Super Chat appreciate. it Destiny why do you keep saying for. some other to carry the baby when she. knows the consequences of having sex.

could be having a baby and she knows. that contraception is not foolproof is. she not responsible for her actions. um I mean I could counter and say. hypothetically there could be a rape but. I mean that's kind of a boring counter. um I mean it's begging the question like. the consequence of having a baby is. delivering the baby I mean it doesn't. have to be the consequence could be you. can get an abortion that's what we're. that's the the matter of what we're. debating is what is what you should be. allowed to do well both of us are. forcing someone to carry a baby to term.

Destiny would force them after 20 weeks. yeah of course so I would just say so. both of us I would phrase it this way. we're both forcing uh a pregnant woman. to not allow someone else to kill or. dismember her child. the difference is I'm forcing somebody. to care about that 20-week picture and. you're forcing them to care about the. two cell picture yeah and I'm saying. that human value does not depend on what. we look like there's AI that looks just. like us that doesn't have value there. are disfigured people who don't look. like us we evolved the problem is that.

we evolve to care about people that look. like us that's why humans have a problem. with racism you know we we evolved an. ability to trust the members of our. tribe if you don't look like me maybe. you're a danger so we have an. evolutionary predisposition to not trust. people who don't look like us or we. think people who are in The Uncanny. Valley like weird robots I think that's. due to the fact that we stay away from. sick people they might get us infected. so we have an evolutionary. predisposition to not care for people. who look dramatically different and I. don't think that should guide our.

decision about whether early human. embryos have value. okay. um I have a question for you Trent uh. there's there's something that often. comes up uh no no uterus no opinion so. we do have two men here debating the oh. yeah abortion topic so Trent what would. you say to someone who says that yeah. people who are pro-life. uh it's men wanting to control women or. control women's bodies what what do you. say to them we had two women here last.

time and I don't know I I'm having fun. with our conversation we're having now I. think it's going well and we can discuss. this I would say that that. there's a kernel of Truth here that for. example I am not in a i and anyone else. who has never been pregnant which would. include some women are not in a position. to say oh pregnancy is easy pregnancy is. hard if you haven't done it you're not. in that position even people have been. pregnant you don't know what it's like. for other people to go through. pregnancies it might be harder or easier. for them so on the one hand like if.

you've never been pregnant you can't. really say oh it's hard oh it's easy you. know you haven't gone through it but you. can say for example that child abuse or. child labor making your kids work in a. mine or abusing kids that's wrong even. if you never have children you know or. like a white person can say racism is. wrong even if they've never been a. victim of racism just because you are. not personally affected by an issue it. doesn't follow you can't have a valid. perspective on it this argument if it. goes to its logical conclusion. transgender women can't have an opinion.

on abortion because they don't have. uteruses uteri uh women who are. post-menopausal Hillary Clinton Ruth. Bader Ginsburg can't have opinions. because they can't get pregnant anymore. but it's like I can't get pregnant they. can't get pregnant in the future I can't. get pregnant in the future so I think. that the argument that if you are a. rational being and you can assess moral. reasoning you can have an opinion on. important stuff got it and I want to. throw this in here and I've brought this. up before and I know it's kind of uh. certainly must be decades or even longer.

away from even being a possibility. any thoughts on. a middle ground compromise between the. pro. side and the pro-life side being an. artificial womb. and assuming said artificial womb if you. were able to transplant uh the fetus for. embryo not for his position maybe for. others but if you were able to put it. into an artificial womb and that. artificial womb was Advanced enough to.

you know it would be as healthy as a. baby that was that would have otherwise. been born normally. um do you think that that's uh could be. a compromise or well it's weird we. basically have artificial wombs from. that can handle an embryo up to a few. days old or a fetus from like 20 weeks. on so it's like we can take care of an. unborn child like. going from each end meeting back in the. middle. but we can't really do it but we can't. really do anything from.

you know week or two until like 18 weeks. we might have some liquids that are. oxygenated the problem is at 20 weeks. the fetus's lungs aren't really. developed enough to breathe that's the. problem oxygenated liquid maybe we could. do that we'll push it back more uh what. I would say is that it would only be a. middle it would only be a compromise if. your position on abortion were this yes. it is a human person but it has no right. to the mother's body. if the r if you're only arguing women. have a right not to abortion but the. right to not be pregnant.

then the artificial womb can play in. because you wouldn't have a right to. necessarily kill the fetus the only. right you have is I don't want to be. pregnant anymore fine move the fetus to. this world then you wouldn't you'd. really lose the argument that I also. want the fetus to be dead because I. don't want to deal with that child out. there if your argument is just you have. a right to not be pregnant you can't. really get to that but if you say that. the fetus is not a person anyways well. if you can kill them when they're if you. can permanent make them unconscious if.

you can. if you can do all sort if you can do. anything to them before 20 weeks which. is basically Destiny's position you. can't be compelled to put him in an. artificial womb. any thoughts on or no I don't know why. you I don't know how that would change. anything yeah. well so let's say uh a mother who. doesn't want to go through with a. pregnancy. she could she could. get an abortion however the fetus baby. whatever uh would not be killed it would. just be transferred to an artificial.

womb yeah the money weeks or after I. guess if you want to do that it could be. but prior to 20 weeks you wouldn't. there'd be no compulsion to transfer it. to anything well the compromise would be. at any point assuming we could develop. an out of artificial womb that even from. I don't know how tip how quickly it. typically gets discovered six weeks or. four weeks five weeks in any case from. pretty much any point in the pregnancy. even very early on it could be. transferred to an artificial womb okay. um. if a woman wanted to not go through the.

pregnancy she would be she'd have to go. to a say Hospital it'd be transferred to. an artificial womb it I suppose the uh. once the child was born it would be. become a ward of the state or if she was. so inclined maybe she didn't want to. actually go through with the pregnancy. but she she may be prepared to actually. mother the child. because I think some women's concern. when it comes to abortion is it's. plausible that some women who get. abortions. might actually be willing to take care. of the child once it's born but perhaps.

they don't want to one of the reasons. maybe they don't actually want to go. through well that's why a lot of like. celebrities hire surrogates now right. exactly yeah well what is hard is also. um if that were out there I think that. would be better than the child being. aborted but I still think that a child. who comes into existence if they're a. person they have the right to reside in. their mother's womb the the place that. is safe and natural for them to live. sure but I mean of course this is. assuming that you know there's certain. arguments about well what about certain.

uh. uh I'm trying to think uh there's a. specific term that's evading me but uh. what what was it with uh it's it slipped. my minds but. um. assuming that you could in an artificial. womb you could bring the child to term. just as healthily with as in the. mother's womb I don't know if that's. even possible but let's say it is. um I suppose my only concern with the. artificial womb you know just looking at.

it from this one narrow lens of abortion. is what are the sort of other. ramifications well here's ramification. if you could deliver at 18 weeks right. now the earliest is like 20. but we. could get there where you can keep an 18. week old fetus alive in an incubator. so it could be sitting there in an. incubator and for the next two weeks the. parents would have under Destiny's View. a free decision whether or not they want. to kill that fetus in that hospital.

incubator right in front of them correct. yep. okay so I think many people would find. that pretty disturbing sure and. certainly I mean there's there's other. concerns with artificial wounds like. people actually not it wouldn't be used. strictly in situations where perhaps a. woman wanted to have an abortion or. perhaps a woman uh. well under couldn't couldn't have a. healthy pregnancy and or as well I think. if I would be very worried about like. farming humans type well if you if.

Destiny's view is correct and you cannot. harm a fetus before 20 weeks there's. nothing stopping you from using IVF. embryos. abandoned embryos there's thousands of. abandoned embryos and cryo tanks you. could just put them into these. artificial wombs. do something to their brains so they. never become conscious sure and you've. got organ harvesting you've got sex. dolls you've got. or even just making them just. unconscious use them as use them as. cadavers for Med students to work with. I think many people would find that to.

be. really really. um awful and counterintuitive that we. ought not treat those human beings that. way and if they are persons that best. explains that that intuition sure that's. true but I would also I would just kind. of with the thing that Trent said. earlier that sometimes we can have. incorrect incorrect intuitions sure I. would say yeah. all right we have a super chat here from. Richie Constitution. uh Destiny do you want to read this one. our biggest fan. Destiny why do you keep saying force a. mother to carry the baby when she know.

wait wait do we already do this one oh. did we do yeah we did this one yeah oh. my apologies we do have this one which I. was actually gonna ask this anyways but. may as well uh nerd for Trenton Destiny. can you in a couple of sentences Steel. Man each other's position and explain. what is most powerful about each other's. position. yeah. and then just one thing the way I was I. was going to ask this it maybe not. necessarily each other's position but if. you were to steal man the pro-choice.

side and Destiny if you were to steal. man the pro-life side uh Trent would you. like well I would say Destiny's position. is that we value the thing that we value. is. um human conscious experience uh that is. something that is unique in the world. that we value and so we should provide. legal protections only to beings that. have human conscious experiences and his. position is that this covers beings from.

20 weeks until they permanently lose. that ability like if they're in. persistent vegetative state if I were to. steal man his position I would just turn. it into Peter singer's position on. abortion which is because I would say. that what makes the human conscious. experience unique is not merely that a. human is conscious and is aware of light. heat pressure cold sour. familiar noise unfamiliar noise but that. they can reason they can do things more.

than what animals can do so we value the. human conscious experience that is. unique to human beings no other animal. has and we only find that like from nine. months after birth until traumatic. injury so I would just say that the for. me the only way to steal man Destiny's. position would be to include infanticide. based. um I think a transposition is. essentially a teleological argument. there is a Telos there is like a design. and function and purpose of a zygote.

from the moment of conception up to the. moment of death we have one consistent. organism with its own genetic code and. the most consistent boundary to draw. around the protection of that life is. from the moment of its Inception the. time that that unique organism is. created which is at the moment of. conception until the time of its death. which is when essentially metabolic. function has ceased because the Telos. are the design of or the ordinary. function of that particular egg is to. gestate in the womb be born into a. person grow develop and then eventually. die as a human being.

that was the Steel Man of the other side. I think so yeah okay all right we have a. chat here from Kyle Whittington thank. you man appreciate the soup chat what do. each of you see as this oh okay well. what do each of you see as the strongest. argument from the other I think we we. kind of just we kind of just uh got that. how about this though let Kyle while I. do this since we kind of just answered. that what is the weakest argument you. hear from the other side. the. weakest argument from the pro-choice.

position would just be abortion ought to. be legal because born people will suffer. if it's illegal. I think that is an extremely common. argument if you brought in a bunch of. people who haven't Destiny's thought. about this a lot I've thought about it a. lot if you brought in regular people. from off the street out here to defend. their pro-choice view that'd probably be. their first argument what about women. who are raped what about poverty what. about all these issues overpopulation. whatever the worst argument is we need. to have legal abortion because born.

people would Suffer Without it of course. that's a terrible argument because it. ignores well what are The Unborn if. you're saying that you can kill a human. being in the first nine months of their. life because if not doing that you're. going to suffer well you could think of. cases of killing born children you know. children who are in foster care for. example like oh they're they're going to. be drug addicts and prostitutes uh maybe. we should just kill them so they don't. have a terrible life well if we don't do. that to toddlers. then we shouldn't do that to unborn.

humans if they're both equally human of. the same value so I would say that those. pragmatic arguments are the worst. arguments. Destiny what do you think I think the. two worst ones are one is the picture. argument I don't like the if you show a. picture and it's like is this right or. wrong um I feel like the best. illustration of that was I don't. remember who what his name was but there. was a guy that went on Charlie Kirk's. show and he held up like a picture of. like uh like a 24-week embryo and he's. like is this a human and Charlie was. like absolutely I think I was like this. is a pig embryo and Charles yeah and. then they got into a fight over that uh.

I think the second I I the most morally. reprehensible argument is I don't like a. donor kind of did it I don't like the. argument from responsibility because. they almost make it sound like a child. is like a negative consequence or a. punishment from sex I think that that. one gets really loaded because it starts. to feel like they're using a child as a. form of punishment to attack a woman. which is a really poor way to deal with. the woman and it's a really sad way to. deal with the existence of a child like. the idea that children are consequences. negative of actions you take so I think. those two things but you're not a fan of. bodily rights Arguments for abortion.

that say even if it is a person you. still have the right to have an abortion. you don't think those arguments work no. wouldn't the basis of that be. if The Unborn human being is a person. you can't abort them because you have. moral duties towards them. yeah but I think the moral duties if. somebody wants to talk about a form of. like moral duties to other people or the. de facto guardianship that you inherit. over a child because you only provide. care that's one argument but the way. that it's true often I agree it feels. like a woman should have consequences I.

agree with you it can be put very crass. and sexist there is like a more eloquent. way to make that argument we talk about. moral duties and responsibilities that I. that I've probably made actually I did. against dillah hunting when I argued. against that. um so yeah I would agree with that but. oftentimes it's just phrased in a really. negative way that makes it well it's. like you had sex you should own up to it. when it's only levied at women for. example and not men that they should. support her in the child and then it's. done in a sexist way yeah. all right and then we have uh one sec. here especially because those same.

people will oftentimes make Arguments. for men being able to financially abort. their responsibility to so even though. it takes two to create a baby more often. than not yeah I say they both have. different responsibilities but equally. they are responsible. got it sorry guys trying to get this. triggered once more. not that kind of triggered the uh stream. Labs one we had. um by the way Destiny I see you're not. wearing a wedding ring but you are. married what. I'm playing with I always play with my. okay it's silicone oh uh Kirby one third.

of rats have the conscious ability to. hear sea smell to a great extent more so. than the newborn human in these ways. their Consciousness is greater yet. they're not persons Destiny appealed to. human conscious experience as if the. fact that a dot dot I guess he didn't. have enough time to uh yeah I just I. don't agree that a diminished Human. Experience is like similar to like a rat. or a pig or a lizard I've never seen any. evidence or any description academically. of that but I mean again if somebody. were to like compellingly argue that. then they would just be pushing me.

closer and closer to Peter singer's. position which I think is like abortion. up to two years old I think it's his. position he says 28 days nine months. people give different time frames but at. some time after birth so. yeah. all right and uh I had another question. here. um and I know I don't know if you've if. you were able to fully give an answer. Trent but um so. legislatively speaking use I don't know.

if you fully answered so. would you you would like to make. abortion illegal is that correct to. perform to to get an abortion yeah I. would say that the laws that I I think. would be most um helpful to pass given I. would just go with the laws that are. being passed now uh in states that are. making abortion illegal where it is. illegal to perform an abortion uh so. that wouldn't reflect on those who seek.

out the procedure it's on medical. doctors who should know better so those. I would say that that procedure should. be outlawed uh and so in doing that I. don't think that's inconsistent because. you can craft laws let's say for example. you see prostitution as a public health. threat so much so that it ought to be. illegal it's not inconsistent to Simply. say well to take into account the. circumstances of women who are involved. we're going to make it illegal to to buy. sex but not to sell sex and so we we.

charge the Johns and the and the pims. all these other people so I think that. you can have something similar but I do. think that yeah I do think that unborn. children should be protected from harm. in the womb whether they're wanted or. unwanted and we do have the uh. two-thirds in the other two chats here. from Kirby hold on let me get these. pulled back up uh. two I think this he's just okay two two. two out excuse me two out of three of. his messages newborn with less conscious. ability than the rat is a person because.

of their Humanity not their extent of. conscious if less Consciousness than the. pig but you're human makes a newborn or. a 20-week fetus a person then this shows. the extent. and then let oops hold on of. Consciousness is not the person making. Factor you must therefore either appeal. to a future greater extent of. Consciousness or appeal to humanity in. itself either appeal prevents you from. advocating for pre-20-week abortions do.

you guys have a thought on this it's the. same thing that they're saying that I'm. setting a bar that's either too low that. animals can jump through it or too high. such that a 20 week old or a nine month. old fetus couldn't jump through it but. again I would argue that a human. conscious experience is a kind of. conscious experience That's Unique from. the mode of conception that is a safe. and Human Experience not for the moment. exception from the moment of the. conception of the conscious experience. so from the 20-week period 20 to 28. weeks that once that conscious. experience starts that is a unique. safety and human conscious experience it. might be diminished it might be.

developing but it's something unique. from any other type of animal experience. and I would say that just begs the. question dogs have unique conscious. experiences uh birds have unique. conscious experiences so just because. you have a unique experience it doesn't. follow that it deserves legal protection. nobody a human unique one does. why. I don't know why does God exist I mean. that's a fundamental there are rights I. believe that we afford each other and. one of those is the right to not be. killed right and to me I think when the. human part of the equation is pressed. into service to save one from becoming a.

radical vegan I think that more slides. into defending the pro-life view that. all humans are valuable regardless of. whether they currently have conscious. experiences or they will eventually have. them okay and I don't think that we. should hold women you know on trial for. murder because they abort something that. hasn't even woken up yet but you do. think they should be on trial for murder. for something that has the most minimal. Consciousness it can have as a human. being absolutely okay but they have the. opportunity to abort first.

if they euthanize their dogs. correct. yeah can you euthanize your dog yeah but. I don't think people that take Plan B. demand to murder investigations okay. we have a chat here from Gohan Bento. thank you for the Super Chat should the. mother be compelled to carry a baby to. term if at two weeks it's determined. that the future child absolutely will. carry Destiny out of diamonds four. saving his League of Legends career. absolutely this is a future person being. saved there and that's me it's about.

saving a life okay there you go it's not. yes I would say that it's not a. potential person it is a person with. great potential to help Destiny of. extraordinary capabilities. got it and uh this one's kind of random. related to time travel so Destiny why. not why not Destiny if you're a mom in. this wanted to abort you at say seven. weeks Ten Weeks whatever let's say you. you could time travel back in time would.

you advocate for or against your. abortion I think that our I think that. everything starts with fundamental basic. human Logics some people call these. properly basic beliefs uh so I've heard. other very simple things but everything. starts from these. um from here we have an understanding of. something called causality that event. leads to event that leads to event if. you want to break a chain of causality. and then ask me a question past that I.

can't give you any kind of consistent or. coherent answer if you go back into the. past to do other things then there's. like para consistent Logics and all. sorts of weird things that open up that. I can't give any meaningful answer for I. don't I don't know the I don't know the. answer to that okay fair enough I don't. know if you had anything on that track. I'm pretty time travel is fun in movies. it's a nightmare in philosophy sure one. probably should avoid it okay. um and then let's see we have. I had a question here for Trent so what.

would you say to someone who says that. it's hard to take conservatives. seriously on the abortion issue. considering perhaps not all. conservatives but some or who knows who. knows the percentage breakdown. considering their social Darwinism on. many other issues. well I would say that a person can be. correct and still be inconsistent so 150.

years ago there were white people who. were saying that black people should not. be slaves but also that black people. shouldn't be allowed to marry white. people they shouldn't be allowed to vote. so they were correct about. um the wrongness of slavery even though. they're wrong about some of the other. rights that they should have so you. could be right about abortion and then. you're incorrect about other stuff. you're not applying your world view. consistently I also think though that. the argument is incredibly loaded in. that regard I think saying that.

conservatives on social Darwinism is. like saying liberals want the gulags you. know it's uh that it's a caricature of. one's position It ultimately comes down. to I support this social program you. don't want to spend as much as me on it. so you're a social darwinist we're going. to disagree about well is this the best. way to solve this problem or there are. going to be Solutions where we're not. sure what the right answer is. but I think that there are there should. be Solutions where we're clear what the. wrong answer is like we may not know. exactly what to do with immigration we.

shouldn't shoot immigrants who are. coming over the Border. um people are going to disagree how do. we treat unborn children if they're. persons well at the very least we. shouldn't dismember them uh we you know. we shouldn't um uh directly kill them in. the womb uh so I and I by the way the. hypocrisy thing goes back to liberals. too they claim to be all approach like. what is it reason or somebody else did a. video about this where they went to the. Democratic National Convention and said. are you pro-choice like absolutely okay. do you believe in the choice to own a. gun do you believe in the choice uh.

school choice or Charter Schools you're. leaving the choice to you know to do. this or that oh no no you can't do that. so it cuts both ways. okay got it got it and then I had let me. see what else we had here uh. question here for Destiny so if it. became absolutely clear to you that The. Unborn Child before is it 23 weeks 20. weeks 20 weeks uh before that period if. it became absolutely clear that it's a. living human being would you then favor.

uh outlawing abortion before 20 weeks. yeah okay. but that's not your position but if that. my position has nothing to do with the. timeline I just do the deployment of the. conscious experience okay gotcha we have. another Super Chat here from the Joshua. Project hey thank you man appreciate it. should husbands be required to take a. paternity paternity test prior to. signing a birth certificate and if and. if he found it not to be the father. should the mother be charged with fraud.

and should taxpayers he be forced to pay. for unwed mothers children. well I would say the children didn't do. anything wrong so it's like we should. still provide care for them it's not. their fault they're in a not ideal. situation so but I would say. what's interesting here is this touches. on something called the presumption of. paternity so throughout most of human. history up until very recently when a. child is born it's really easy to figure. out who the mom is right because she's.

right there yeah but when a child but it. hasn't always been easy to figure out. who dad is so that's why throughout most. marriage and common law the presumption. of paternity is that if a woman gives. birth the husband is the man she is. married to and he is the only one who. can challenge that and so he might. challenge paternity if you know hey I. was I was way at War for a year and you. got pregnant and had a kid what's going. on here but otherwise that would be up. to him uh to challenge and yeah if. there's an issue there I think the child.

should just be taken care of even if the. marriage is a bit of a mess sure. any thoughts on this destiny. um treat it as fraud you'd have to prove. it's fraudulent there could legitimately. be a mistake where a woman is uh dating. or casually having sex with a couple. people and then has a more formal. relationship and then she got pregnant. early and I didn't realize it like I. don't know if it would count as fraud if. that was the case well I think though. that's why also to have a strong. familial structure the best thing for. families though would be something that.

that's monogamous to prevent these kinds. of things from happening sure but I'm. just saying the crime of fraud requires. a men's Ray as the intent to fraud I. don't think we can defraud somebody. accidentally right like if I. legitimately be careless yeah yeah so I. don't think I don't think all forms of. Miss paternity or or incorrect. fraternity are necessarily fraudulent. you'd have to prove the willful. fraudulent behavior of the mother I mean. but would it be fraudulent if there was. around the time period where she there. was she got pregnant.

there was infidelity that was at no. point ever disclosed to the husband. and like she'd be estranged from him get. you know get pregnant well I guess it. would be hard for her to timeline wise. well also because you could argue. there's a due diligence that's necessary. oh. oh plan life thank you for the. memberships thank you you can argue. there's like a necessary due diligence. there from the mother's perspective sure. okay. um but you're saying let's assume that. you could prove it's fraud like she knew.

it's not the baby. should there be civil penalties criminal. penalties I mean whatever the normal. thing is for scamming the state or. another person I guess whatever it. ordinarily is well I don't think you can. regardless of who the father is I don't. know I think that'd be more of like it's. more of a it's more of a civil matter. now to deal with family court about how. do we support this child and who's. related to that I still think that. husbands have duties of their wives even.

if these things happen this is. infidelity doesn't break the marriage. this is a it's like a red pill fantasy. question of like that all women are. trying to defraud fathers with like fake. child support is essentially that's the. question I said I would say well can't. should wives be able to have civil. liability towards their husbands if they. knock up another girl like why should. why is anyone asking about that oh oh no. true they're not asking about that you. know so true that's because they're red. pillars. but I think perhaps it's it's a greater.

perhaps it's a greater wrong because. uh. actually I don't know where I'm going. I'm going with that one but but as far. as the paternity testing I think my. personal stance is I would actually be. in favor of. when the child's born there's just. automatic paternity tests that way. there's absolutely no questions I feel I. yeah I I would just to me I would say. that this it's rare that that happens. and that's why my preferred option would.

just be. well now you might I think people could. have the option to ask for that as if. they're not married but that's why. that's why my ideal. would be that's the reason we bring. children into existence in marriage it's. not just some romantic option like when. a when a child is conceived you've got a. helpless human being. and whose duty is towards that child. really it's the mother and father. they're irreplace if they die we can. come up with a decent substitute but the. mother and father are really. Irreplaceable to that child they can. never be truly replaced it's always.

almost there so we have an institution. to make them Irreplaceable to each other. which would be a lifelong permanent. monogamous Bond that's socially. recognized and that's why marriage is so. important to society in that regard do. we know the percentage breakdown of uh. the the incidence rate of paternity. fraud so basically or or another it's. like one to two percent of like I've. heard up to ten percent that's a total. [ __ ] lie I've ever told you you. should never trust a single thing to. tell you about any days.

www.fuckwomen.com whoever told you that. wait who told you that the paternity. fraud is about ten percent yeah who told. you that you know what the stat you know. what you know what I'm I just divined. the I God just [ __ ] direct Revelation. I just got special revelation God I just. figured out what he said this [ __ ]. [ __ ] probably read something that said. in the case where paternity is. challenged ten percent of them are. fraudulent I could maybe believe that. number well if you're making the same. and then 10 of all fraternity is like.

the 10 that'd be like one out of every. 10 kids oh it's not it's not really. their kid yeah that's insane I agree. with you that it may it may be the case. that when when it's challenged I mean I. look but most paternities not exactly so. it's probably only challenged in cases. of affected infidelity in which case I. can see I'll Google it I'll Google it uh. incidents. of paternity fraud maybe that's the. appropriate prompt for this uh. okay so it does look like there's some.

challenge to this 10 number that would. just be an insane number real for all. yeah for sure that would be the same. according to Wikipedia which is not you. know uh it says that in studies that. solely looked at couples who obtained. paternity testing. because paternity was being disputed you. can you can bring it back. there are there are higher levels an. incidence of 17 17 to 33 percent in.

instances where it the paternity is. being displayed we need the more eclip. right now you are not the father yeah. but so that's in a very that's probably. in if I had to guess less than five. percent of births probably less than. that of paternities are challenged and. then of that less than that percent 17. to 33 of those might come back as being. yeah. let's see I'm trying to find another. thing here and well in any case uh I. would be in favor of paternity. testing upon birth.

why you know just what if that what if. there's a false positive of one out of a. thousand yeah I don't believe in. mandatory medical intervention unless. it's to prevent neglect or violence. towards another human being so just for. this like no that's why we have the. presumption the only person if they're. worried the dad can make that call. otherwise there's no okay fair enough uh. let's see did we get another chat in. Nick or. no I don't I don't think we did.

um do you guys have anything else I. might have one more one or two more. questions but did you guys have any. other topics you wanted to touch on or I. think people see our positions and um. can see which one makes the most sense. of everything they believe about the. world so true yeah okay all right so I. had another question here let's see. three hours not bad. uh one sec guys. sorry I lost my uh place in my notes. Here. uh.

oh if a pregnant woman and her unborn. child are murdered do you believe the. criminal should face two counts of. murder and serve a harsher sentence I. suppose I'll open this up to the both of. you. well I think more people have been. killed yeah so it's to be more accounts. of homicide yeah okay and if we're. testing it probably depends on how far. along the fetus was it was after 20. weeks yeah would you agree with that uh. yeah it depends on how far along it is. yeah.

um okay all right one sec here guys my. notes are lagging human life again. sorry hold on let me play something. appropriate for this hold on. what it I'd love to hear your opinion on. this at some point you want to just be. the neutral or you want to be the. neutral moderator I'll I'll just stay. neutral that's fine on on this one but. uh yeah. um okay I think we're that's it do we.

did we get any uh chats or. good on chat snake. was there one more that came in. are you what are you looking for Nick. okay cool uh last chance any final. thoughts between either of you before we. wrap up no it was um I enjoyed chatting. with you about this and I think these. kind of conversations like these are. really the shows at the very least this. is an important issue uh you know it's a.

weighty moral subject and I think. conversations like this their goal it's. not to no conversation like this can. ever like end the issue but I think it. can encourage people you should think. about this kind of stuff deeply and. think about it to have at least a. coherent View and test it and refine it. so I'm glad at least this conversation. with us if it can get people to think. about this then I think it's a. worthwhile discussion to have. yeah I agree. okay very cool all right well I think we.

are uh gonna wrap. s. oh yes let me check there is there is. thank you for catching that we have our. final chat here from Jazz thank you man. appreciate it. conservatives want to ban abortion but. simultaneously oppose Social Services. for children lunches in schools and. socialized Health Care single parent. households have the worst outcomes in.

terms of education and criminality as a. physician conservatives are disgusting. his words not mine don't shoot the. messenger. um this sort of almost Echoes my. question I asked earlier about the. social Darwinism component but if you'd. like the other problem with this stuff. is it's such a monolithic binary way of. thinking like there are lots of. pro-choice Republicans there is a lot of. like we call them like Barry I grew up. in Arizona we call them Barry Goldwater. Republicans like there's a lot of people. who are conservative who are actually I.

would say well it's interesting there's. a there's a decent number of pro-choice. Republicans there are a few pro-life. Democrats but it's a lot rarer to find a. pro-life Democrat than it is to find a. pro-choice Republican sure in my opinion. so I do think that that's just. it's a stereotypical argument there. there are a lot of you can be I would. say being pro-life is a very liberal. position because the goal of liberalism. is to expand the sphere of human. equality to as many people.

um Nat hentoff was you know he's an. atheist he wrote for the Village Voice. he did the consistent life ethic there's. lots of people like that so I would say. that it's um. you know it's not a strictly political. thing but yeah if you're what the thing. is like if you're. I would say the hypocrisy goes both ways. it's bad if you care you only care about. children before they're born and not. after but it's also hypocritical to only. care about them after and not before and. I also think that it's lame to say you. don't care about kids because you. disagree with my policy.

well people can disagree about what's. the best way to help people so overall I. think it's just kind of lame objection. I just they have nothing to do with each. other I think like like people will you. know like the conservative answer is we. do care about children after they're. born we just care about them in. different ways because we don't think. it's the federal government's. responsibility to take care of children. we think it's community churches. families so it's yeah or you could say. it is a federal government's. responsibility uh but the question is. where do we draw the line where do they. go too far too much.

okay got it and uh you often hear. perhaps in uh. the other side you'll often hear them. say the other side's evil in this. discussion uh both sides might say that. uh do you do you think the other side is. is evil for wanting I think very rarely. is incredibly rare that um anybody's. evil I do believe that people share 99. um the same kind of like moral. intuitions I think there's just a. disagreement of fact factual matters. sometimes. um when it comes to understanding.

certain positions. um now they're going to be some. positions at the edges so abortion I. think and veganism are two of them where. there is room for legitimate. disagreement because we're getting at. the boundaries of like human knowledge. like what is a human life or what is a. conscious experience these are like the. hardest questions to ask but I think. overwhelmingly for most things we all. agree like if we could show somebody. that if we all do if we if we do this. thing all poverty will go away if that. thing was eradicating the government and. living it as an anarchist Society like. left Lenny people should go okay well if. it really gets rid of all poverty fine.

and then on the flip side if making the. most socialized government ever that. pays for everybody's stuff and. everybody's happy and healthy if should. say okay well if that does fix it then. sure I change my position but I think at. the same day we all want the same things. we just get there in radically different. ways. yeah it is a um it's a difficult. question is the other side evil I mean. only people can have the property of. being good or evil uh I think that I. think that legal abortion is evil I. think the act of abortion is evil.

because it kills an innocent human being. who has a right to life uh and I think. that people who defend legal abortion. have different levels of culpability. for being immoral for defending this. thing some people could be misinformed. mistaken they have used their rational. powers in a mistaken way to defend. um an awful position like I think Peter. Singer defends an evil position uh when. he defends infanticide but I also think. there's a difference between someone who. says you know what I'm for abortion.

because even if it is a baby I don't. care people should be able to do what. they want. I would say that that is appealing just. to Evil based instincts and other people. are defending this evil with um mistaken. rational arguments. okay got it uh where can the people find. you Destiny uh youtube.com. destinykick.com Destiny and. instagram.com Destiny and Trent what. about you uh yeah people can find me on. YouTube just search for the Council of. Trent. c-o-u-n-s-e-l uh so counsel a trend on.

YouTube Google iTunes I'm on Twitter. Trent Horn uh if you'd like to learn. more about this subject I actually I I. just released a second edition of my. book I get a book plug at the end uh. persuasive Pro live and I talk about our. culture stuffist issue the first go to. shop.catholic.com to get it it should be. in Amazon soon to replace the first. edition but I wrote a sec I wrote the. first one in 2014 but now that Roe. versus Wade is overturned I wrote a. follow-up that reworked everything so. people can check that out uh but yeah.

counselor trend on um YouTube you can. check that out you guys you have. catholic.com. I work for Catholic answers uh so I do. work for them and back in the 90s Carl. Keating was the guy who founded the. thing and so he founded the company back. in like 1988. so in like 1992 he got. like in the early 90s he got the staff. together and he said listen I've been. reading the trade journals and there's. this thing coming soon called the. internet and it's going to change. everything like you're going to be able. to order food on it and one of the guys.

there was like what are you gonna like. go to your computer and there'll be a. camera and you just get the milk out of. the fridge through the camera on your. computer he says no you'll you'll be. able to do all this stuff but everybody. will have their own address so we got to. make sure that since we're Catholic. answers we should get catholic.com and. so like he got it like in like 1993 wow. like the one thing that like the pope. would be like we'd really appreciate if. you could give us catholic.com that's. sorry that's more Mario than the pope. but you know he's Argentinian you. wouldn't say the pope asked for. catholic.com would you guys give it up.

um we could make a deal we've made a. good deal with him if he could do a few. things for us maybe the pope he doesn't. have a Authority didn't foulably make us. do that it doesn't fall under faith and. morals web domains don't fall under. jurisdiction but yeah so catholic.com is. where I'm at would that be like an. eminent domain thing but for Catholicism. like they wait the pope can make you. give him stuff or uh back in the middle. back in the Middle Ages when the pope. was aligned with the emperor and he had. a lot more civil authority over things. maybe nowadays uh not so much okay.

got it okay guys well uh guys last call. please hit the like button on your way. out thank you for tuning in tonight uh. thank you very much to our thank you two. guests here thank you guys uh you could. have been anywhere in the world but. you're here with me I appreciate that to. our viewers thank you to everyone who. chatted donated and supports the show. thank you to all our chat mods big thank. you to Britt who's helping with. timestamps. um we will be live again with our dating.

talk Sunday at 7 00 p.m Pacific hope you. guys enjoyed this uh stream 07s in the. chat and yeah we will see you guys again. Sunday 7 P.M Pacific hope you guys have. a good uh rest your day and we'll see. you soon.