Andrew Wilson vs. College Feminist REMATCH | Whatever Debates #5

welcome to a special debate edition of. the whatever podcast coming to you live. from Santa Barbara California I'm your. host and moderator Brian Atlas a few. quick announcements before the show. begins this podcast is viewer supported. heavy YouTube demonetization so please. consider donating through streamlabs. instead of super chatting as YouTube. takes a brutal 30% cut some quick maths. fore also if you Super Chat 100 YouTube. takes AK 30 if you donate 100 streamlabs.

only takes 30 streamlabs.com whatever. link is in the description you can see. all the uh details for all the triggers. that we do have in the description we're. just going to jump right into it uh this. is going to be a fairly less a fair. debate so without further Ado uh if you. guys want to just introduce yourselves. quickly yeah my name is Andrew Wilson. host of The Crucible fastest growing. debate Channel on YouTube to my. knowledge I'm political sauris political.

commentator and I do blood sport debates. so I'd like to thank my opponent for. coming out today I really appreciate. that very much and I'm looking forward. to a good faith debate all right welcome. I'm Carly I'm a UCSB student I'm just a. random person well no hold on so you're. what what are you studying at UCSB. political science are you a grad student. or undergrad I'm undergrad okay yeah all. right and we had you on one of our. dating talks about uh it was what two.

weeks ago or so yeah and uh Andrew did a. call in on that show and you guys had. quite uh I thought quite a good back and. forth on various topics feminism sexism. racism I think some other. stuff did we did we talk about the. geopolitics of Geor the Russ Georgia. haven't got into that not into that. maybe maybe a little later on the show. um perhaps a good place to start is what. did you guys disagree on during the.

podcast well I think primarily our Focus. was on feminist ideals and the optimal. ways to raise. families so I'm happy to kind of dive in. on that if you'd like sure yeah so so. that we're not speaking past each. other when you Define. feminism would you define it as the. pursuance of egalitarianism between men. and women yes no other real. qualifiers um not for me I do think it's.

difficult to Define because I think that. everyone kind of has their own. definition so when talking about it it's. difficult to like discuss feminism it's. like a monolithic thing but yeah I think. that's a good it's a good working. definition if it's a movement towards. egalitarianism this would imply that. there was not egalitarianism and so. feminism was set in opposition to. patriarchy yes I would agree I would. agree okay so that's an entailment we. can agree to yeah so I'd like to start.

with a basic argument before I move to. larger. arguments my first argument my first. objection is what I call an equal force. objection men are the enforcement arm of. society and because they are the. enforcers of Rights and I don't believe. that rights exist as an objective. standard but rather they're a social. construction of the mind what I think we. actually have is what's called Force. right so Force are rights that's all. rights really can be because the.

entailment of a right is it's only as. good as who can enforce it I do not. believe that women can enforce their own. rights and that only men can enforce. their rights and so therefore I do not. believe egalitarianism is possible nor. should it be something that we move. towards MH so you think that men are the. enforcement arm in the sense that they. enforce rights or our conception of. Rights or are you arguing that they're. the enforcement arm as in like they're. enforcing Law and Order well let's back. up to make sure that we're not speaking. past again.

so rights you would agree are not a. tangible thing but they're just a. conception they're I yeah I AG with that. a social construction yes so if you are. to have a right an an entitlement ABS in. a duty if we can define a right as that. then what you're really talking about is. force you're talking about having Force. to make sure that you have this. entitlement that would be necessary and. so when I'm talking about Force I'm. saying that men have the Monopoly on.

force and because they have a monopoly. on Force anytime they so choose they can. take the rights away from women but it's. never possible the other way. around I I guess I would disagree that. rights are only upheld through Force. like in this day and age I think that. it's easy to say that hypothetically men. could turn against women and use like. brute strength and Brute Force to take. away rights but I think that it's easy. to say that sorry sorry sorry it's okay. I think that we have we have a pretty.

well mocking her. Brian a pretty well-founded legal system. that we we used to uphold rights or you. know our conception of Rights I think I. would disagree that rights are are only. Force I do agree that they are a social. construction your legal system is force. I I mean the legal system yes it it's. Force it's coercion but I think no it's. not just coercion it's Force so if if. absent you doing whatever the legal. system determines you must do what is.

the. remedy I mean I mean that's a good point. I just think that do you think that. rights are enforced like physically like. you think that men okay could you give. me an example of that cuz I I think I. don't really fully understand you want. to make an appeal that your rights are. in some way being taken away from you or. your rights in some way are being. violated who would you make the appeal. to Supreme Court I don't know and so.

let's assume whoever you make this. appeal to on a court agrees with. you they're going to be able to use the. power of their office to appeal to brute. force in order to defend or take your. right away so if I want to take you send. you to prison I'm taking your rights. away right what does that require Force. physical Force yes does it require. physical Force to keep you there yeah I. would say that taking someone to prison. and keeping someone in prison does. require physical Force but I mean I. guess I like.

abortion rights it's a very like recent. I fail to see. how like the right. to right to get an abortion maybe not. the right because obviously punishing. someone who performs an illegal abortion. involves taking someone to prison but. how is the right to an abortion upheld. by physical Force I you know I well. because. if if you go to get an abortion okay and. somebody comes in to stop you from. getting an abortion meaning they're.

going to stop you from exercising that. right if that's a right you believe you. have wouldn't you make an appeal to men. with guns to come in and stop them from. stopping you from doing that okay I. think I I understand what you mean now I. think I didn't fully understand what you. mean but I mean in that case women can. train to use weaponry and use guns I. mean we have weaponry now that can kind. of fill the gap between men and women's. everything comes down to actual physical. Force and let me explain what I mean.

there's not one time in history ever. that you can point to where women have. been able to collectively use force in. order to dominate men however every. point in history I can almost point to. where men can and have done that and the. opposite cannot be true meaning that if. men in even small collectives decide to. take the rights away from women there is. not actually anything women can do about. it however if women mildly and.

collectively or or in a small or large. Collective try to take the rights away. from men there is something they can do. about that but I I do think that would. require somehow taking Weaponry out of. the picture I mean but you don't need to. take Weaponry out of the picture weapons. require strength to use those who are. strong can use them better not only that. field equipment weighs a lot right. equipment in general weighs a lot you. also have the endurance problem the.

skeletal problems who have the heat. regulation problems the distinctions. between men and women are incredible and. so when you look at a force applicator. men have a monopoly on Force by the way. I can demonstrate this pretty easy. Western Nations have become more. egalitarian than they ever have been you. would agree right yeah but who still. stays predominantly in these enforcement. positions I mean predominantly yes but. women well obviously I I totally agree. with you that there is a physical. difference between men and women and. they are stronger but I do think that.

the Gap is significantly smaller with. Weaponry I don't think it's. fully you. know brought to a brought to an equal. playing field but in other words if men. have weapons and women have weapons. women lose I mean yeah but there are. women in law enforcement there are. female prison wardens cosos things like. that so and they are and while there are. some exceptional women I agree who can. be inside of positions like this or some. exceptional women maybe one day have. that first female Navy SEAL maybe it'll.

happen Okay it hasn't happened yet but. one day there will be an exceptional. Navy SEAL badass gi. Jane type chick uh. who can wear the skin tight leather with. the hand grenades and do the ninja kicks. but those are going to be exceptional. cases I agree that they are exceptional. cases but you're saying so men are the. default enforcement arm of of Rights of. legal rights but there there are women. in those positions so I I feel. because men can take them away from them.

collectively whenever they so choose and. they have no recourse but men always do. which is force collectively sure but I. mean there there are still exceptions to. that so that there are women in those. positions and by and large men are. stronger than women but there are weak. men and there are strong women and I I. feel that I mean the exceptions to those. cases do present a problem but even. weaker men even much weaker men are. still usually stronger than even average. women and this is the this is the the. problem with Equalization for instance.

if you were to have a prison okay or you. know let's try this a different way. let's say that you were um a general in. the armed forces and you had a Special. Forces Unit which was compiled of 100%. women and one that was compiled of 100%. men and you had a job which you. absolutely had to get done it was. critical it was mission critical who. would you turn it over to I would turn. it over to a you turn it over to the men.

because they would be much more. excellent performing those duties than. women right yeah and I I can totally. agree with you on that but I do think. that the presence of women in those. positions I mean they are present in. those positions and also I guess guess. my question would be do you think that. the enforcement of Rights is the most. important part of of like a. well-functioning society like do you. think that is enforement of Law and.

Order is critical to society so the. Greeks said without law there is no. Freedom right you would agree that. that's probably true I don't see how you. could really descend into Anarchy and. have actual Freedom it would just end up. in like a slave eat slave oppressive you. know this type of thing yeah so yeah I. do think that law and the enforcement of. Law and rights and the enforcement of. Rights or duties in the enforcement of. Duties are critical to a society so.

while I don't believe in the. construction of Rights because they. don't really exist absent Force I do. understand that having some kind of core. belief towards something can be useful. in keeping a cohesive Society together. but I don't believe that women are. capable of doing that and so because. they're not equal they they cannot be. equal because of this I don't understand. why they should have equal rights to. vote why they should have equal rights. to men if they are not in the position. where they can actually reinforce their. own rights and only men can I guess I.

fail to see how Okay women cannot. physically enforce their own rights. leads to women should not have should. not have equal rights or um an. egalitarian society is not possible. because I mean even the way you said it. Law and Order is only one critical. aspect of a well-functioning society so. if that's only one critical aspect then. how can you say well this.

this one aspect and the fact that men. are going to dominate this one aspect. they're not going to be the sole you. know that women will exist but men will. dominate this one aspect how how can you. say that that because they're always. going to be making the appeal to men for. those rights and there's no way around. it and so men can collectively take the. rights away from from women period they. just can there's nothing that women can. do about this so egalitarianism in and. of itself would just be an illusion it. would would literally be a lie you would.

you would be walking around saying that. you're equal with men you're you have um. you have equality with them well at the. same time necessarily having to appeal. to them for that equality which it it. makes it contradictory right how do you. appeal to the thing for equality while. at the same time saying that you're. equal so you you think that the fact. that women have to appeal to men for. their equality means that there. shouldn't be an attempt at like an. egalitarian society there should be what. is the attempt it's it would be an.

illusion right men can just collectively. take it away but women cannot do that to. the opposition only men can so men can. take away men's rights and men can take. away women's rights and men can give men. rights men can give Women rights but. women can't give men rights nor take. men's rights away I mean. if I I just think it's easier to say. that our system of of Rights I mean I. know that I agree with you that our. rights are sort of a construct but we do. have in practice legal rights I I find.

it hard to just say that like well. that's all an illusion because we're. living it every day I mean we have legal. rights if you commit a crime you go to. jail I mean that is all a social. construct but but we're living it I mean. you're talking about a a descriptor of. is and a it is true we go through. life um with all sorts of kind of. presuppositions and suppositions which. aren't true all the time to get through. the day we do this all the time for. instance there's no real reason for you.

to go in and turn your car on and think. it's going to start except that you're a. pattern recognition machine and it's. always started and so you assume that. it's going to start if you had some. pre-knowledge that it wouldn't you would. have taken the steps to make sure that. the next day you got in and it would. start right everything that you do in. your life as you're going through it is. built on all sorts of unfounded. suppositions that probably aren't true. at all but we still act as though they. are in order to have a society but event. what ends up happening is we do have to.

face down actual facts in actual reality. and in actual. reality if you end up with too much. internal conflict based around this. egalitarian system what's actually going. to prevent men from just taking away. women's rights altogether there doesn't. seem like there's anything that would. stop that from. happening I mean that would that would. require like widespread like Mass. violence by men against women why would.

it require any. violence I mean well okay because if. you're saying it wouldn't require. violence then you're giving some kind of. like you're admitting that this system. of legality that we have has some kind. of like no I'm just saying that if if it. is true that men can by use of force and. I think most women know this could do. this why if they decided to do you think. that women would what what do you think. they could do about it take to the. street with their little signs and say.

please don't but I I don't to me that. sounds like you're saying it it would be. an act of violence how else how are men. going to take away women's rights. without without violence if men. collectively tomorrow say women have no. more rights what are the options left to. women I mean legal political exercises. and in that case you say men are. stronger they could exercise violence. against women to take their rights away. they exercise any violence all they may.

need to do is just say you no longer. have the rights and women really just. can't do anything about it they could. maybe collectivize with signs but what. happens if they're just ignored or. laughed at or scoffed or mocked and they. can't really take violence to men so. polit in political action right there is. always what is called the violent. alternative and men can always appeal to. that alternative it's a terrible thing. I'm not advocating for that I'm just I'm. giving a descriptor for what is true. this is something which can be appealed. to for men but only for men women can.

only do small scale so even even in kind. of the most the craziest feminist you. can think of the best they were able to. do is like send some boom booms in the. mail and this kind of thing but they. couldn't really push back against a. structure of strength it's it wasn't. really possible for them to do you see. the voting Gap as it begins to widen as. men become more right-wing and women. more leftwing what happens eventually if. what is considered the patriarch has. been pushed against just decides one day.

no no more rights for women I think in. that case there would there would be. political opposition and I think I think. there would be widespread Collective. political opposition from women and if. you say that's futile because men can. just why where where's the widespread. political opposition in the Middle East. where they have no rights they're not. allowed the thing is. you presuppose that women will be.

allowed to go out and have picket signs. or presuppose that women can go out in. protest presuppose that women will still. be able to have the same functions they. have now if men collectively say no and. I'm telling you I don't think that. that's the case everything down from the. husband inside of the home to the. boyfriend inside of the home to the. actual structure of government all. enforcing collectively or even a small. collection maybe 10% I I think women. can't really do anything I mean I would.

agree they can't do anything physically. but that would require men to. collectively decide to use violence. against women and I I don't I don't. believe that I don't believe that most. men would be willing to use violence. against women for political then if. that's true why the hell did you need. feminism because I I don't think that it. was about violence I think that it was. about a lack of. lack of political rights if if I can use.

that word well then but we already we've. already discerned that rights are Force. so if we've discerned that rights are. force and you say that we want more. rights it means that you want to have. more. Force sure so then you needed feminism. right feminism was a way for you to have. Force yeah I mean I think. that social movements like Collective. political action can approximate. you need Force for if you're saying that.

men collectively would not move against. women using Force why the hell do you. need Force then I think that no I think. that they would collectively move. against women using Force I'm saying. like well then you just contradicted. yourself political I'm talking more in a. political force sense I don't think that. men political force I think the use of. like rights things like that like. restricting rights restricting Mobility.

it's all backed up with Force but I. don't think it always necessarily. translates to a one to one it is force. because absent Force law has no. bite so if somebody says it is the law. that you not do X but there's no. enforcement if you break the law is that. a law I mean is enforcement always. violence like is enforcement enforcement. always must be backed with physical. violence for a law or for any type of. right period maybe backed with the. threat of but do you think that all.

enforcement takes place solely through. the threat of physical violence or do. you think there are social mechanisms. all all of it it has to be backed with. the physical prowess of enforcement. otherwise why couldn't it just be. ignored I mean I think that there are. things beyond the threat of physical. violence that can I I agree with you. that the threat of physical violence is. what backs the majority of our you know. our laws but do you not think there's. also a social aspect of like.

appropriateness and. like wanting to be perceived in a. certain way wanting to keep. with mhm you're asking about social. norms yeah sure. but if there's a violation to a social. Norm absent of law that's one of the. problems we have in society now right. which is there's no law which prevents. you from moving outside of a social Norm. so if that is the case case then.

nothing's preventing you so let's say. for instance there's no law which says. that it's illegal to go out and dig up a. dead body and do a dirty deed to it okay. mhm you agree that there will be people. who. do yes yes okay but wouldn't it be. better for us to have a law and force. saying if you do this there's going to. be severe punishments for you yeah yeah. so the social Norm itself is not the. enforcement it's always the force okay. yeah I can agree with that I guess guess. I still am stuck on how that means that.

we we can't have an egalitarian society. okay I guess I should ask you would have. the illusion of egalitarianism but you. never actually have egalitarianism that. will always be a product of the mind and. never a product of objective reality. okay so is your view of feminism that it. is pointless because there can never be. a arianism well so you just earlier and.

no offense I'm just going to point this. out so that you know you spoke out of. two sides of your mouth you said I don't. believe that men would collectively come. together to use some kind of force. against women but when I asked why would. you need feminism then you said well. because we need to have some kind of. force to protect ourselves from the. patriarchy well both of the these things. cannot be true at the same time this is. where we come to what we call. Schrodinger's feminist which is I'm a. strong and powered woman but also a.

victim at the same exact time and it. can't really be both it has to be one or. it has to be the other so if you're a. strong empowered woman and what it is. that you want is some type of equal. force to push back against the. patriarchy I think I we've just. discovered that that's not even a. possibility so what's really going on is. you want some sort of political power. right but you can't enforce the. political power well that is and I when. I say that equal force to push back. against the patriarchy I mean political.

power because I don't think that men. will collectively decide to use violence. against women so they do it all over the. world all the time well yes on an. individual level I don't thinkle on a. collective level okay so what do you. think the solution to that should be for. women well I think the first solution is. you should understand that what you're. doing is you're fighting the patriarchy. by at the same time appealing to it so. if you and I can agree. that Force itself is political power and.

that Force itself is always going to be. monopolized by men then you've described. a patriarchal system if that is the case. and you say you want more political. power then you are actually appealing to. a patriarchal system to give it to you. because they're going to be the. enforcers right I can agree with that I. don't think it's good I don't I don't. enjoy not just have patriarchy if that's. the case that you're appealing to it. anyway in order to enforce your rights. inside of it. why not just submit to patriarchy.

because I I mean me personally I would. rather not I would not like to see the. outcomes from from A system that works. like that I would not like to be I. wouldn't like to see women I guess in. general relegated to the domestic sphere. I wouldn't like to see the levels of. when you say domestic sphere what do you. mean the home like child rearing I me. personally I have no problem with that. that is that's what I. see in my future because I what could be.

more important than that for me no for. for women I mean for women it I think. that should be up to the individual. woman yeah I understand that you think. um well go ahead I didn't mean to cut. you off no it's okay I think that the. key here is not to say that that is bad. but I do think that sort of socially. enforcing that that is the only. opportunity for women is bad because not. every woman will be fulfilled by that. and we'll be happy in that position what.

job do you think is more important in. society than being a. mother I would agree that being a mother. is the most important job and how are. you relegating women to the home if the. most important societal job we can give. them is motherhood how is it a demotion. how is it a I mean even even a gilded. cage is a cage like if if a woman. doesn't want to do that well but there's. no that's relegation there's never been. women women are not forced to stay at. home and give birth they've always been.

able to work they've always been able to. work there's definitely social pressure. and there good we need social. pressure hey Sean thank you for the. gifted 20 memberships appreciate it go. ahead continue yeah I I would disagree. that we need social pressure to keep I. mean I'm sure you'll reference the. decline in birth rate and decline in the. birth rates birth rate I don't really. know but I think that it's biological. impulse to have kids I don't think.

people are going to stop having kids um. but they're stopping having kids maybe. at a slower rate no at a huge rate like. South Korea you know what the birth rate. is there and I've heard in South Korea. it's it's a it's below it's a movement. single replacement yeah and I've heard. that's an intentional movement on the. part of women which I mean that could be. an example of women exing force wait I. thought we didn't need pressure pressure. to make people have kids because people. are going to continue to reproduce you. just said no matter what and point to a. political movement where they stop okay.

no I'll give you that I guess but in. that case women are women are. successfully exerting some kind of. political pressure happens if men in. South Korea. say no I mean that would involve like. forcible that would involve rape I mean. why would it would involve. rape how else could you force a woman to. well they could do it through. incentivization they could just say. things like you can't work you have to. get married if you want to survive in.

this world they could do things like. that where it would be coercion but it. would not be that we can't say that word. by the way but sa it would not be sa so. what I'm saying is that there's all sort. of incentives which can be put down so. you appeal to a woman's biology and the. fact that she wants to have children but. you also dismiss indoctrination and. there's a huge indoctrination program. that tells women to have a nest egg. before they get married and so their. early years in their 20s they're not. having kids and they wait until they're.

in their 30s the average marriage age. now is 31 I believe in the United States. it's over. 30 that's not really very good for child. rearing wouldn't you agree no I don't. why is that not good because your most. fertile years are behind you but if if. we're still having children at. replacement rates we're not we're way. under replacement R because women are. are waiting later to have children yeah. well it's because of materialism so the. reason this occurs I'll explain it to. you so that you.

know if you can have the procreative. function right and all the fun that. comes with it without the side effect of. children a lot of people will opt to do. that because of Hedonism and because of. materialism there's no the society is. devolving into Den nihilism because. there's no greater Pursuit for people to. have religiosity is bashed at every. corner God is considered to be something. which is an out landish fairy tale and. there's no higher authority for people.

so materialist nihilism is what. society's being reduced to so people are. looking at a sense of self more than. they're looking at an extension of. family I I guess I'm curious. where I'm curious about a couple things. where is the proof that this is. happening and that there is this big. information campaign to keep women from. having children in their 20s and also. where is it coming from well the. original so all the original feminists. who are on the uh suffragette side if.

you go back and you read their writings. you can find them in a great book called. a cult feminism they express over and. over again that the nuclear family is. the most dangerous part of women's. Liberation because it it breeds a. patriarchal system and so that is what. they were pushing against was a nuclear. family they did not like that at all so. that's proof one proof two is that I can. go back to the 90s when the United. States was really pushing student loans.

especially towards women and in the. 2000s towards women and you saw the. expression of feminism in what would be. considered I think third wave at that. time telling women to wait until later. in life until they had something to fall. back on because their husbands were. going to leave them it does happen well. the husbands aren't initiating the. divorces wives are initiating the. divorce women do absolutely initiate. divorce but do you think that it's. there's no fault in in that in those.

instances do you think men were. completely innocent well it's good that. you bring up no fault I'm talking about. no fault right because um no of course. there's going to be times where men are. at fault for the relationship dissolving. but when we look I mean we can look at. these on a case-by Case basis and we do. so we have all sorts of attorneys and. and judges and um you know polling. groups who talk to these various divorc. couples who they track and who they get. remarried to and and the number one. reason that they're getting married is.

or divorced is irreconcilable. differences and often times there's no. abuse there's no drug use there's no. abandonment there's no nothing she just. doesn't like him anymore and decides to. move on to somebody else so when when we. look at the data that's what we're. seeing what we're not seeing is that men. are out you know rampantly cheating or. beating up their their wives or doing. any of this and the reason is so. terrible that they initiate divorce for. self is because because most of the time. they have children in these.

relationships and it does huge damage to. the kids and so this is what I mean by. selfish. materialism I mean I guess I still fail. to see like the proof that there is an. orchestrated. campaign like of nihilism and of cuz I. mean like there there's been ni like I. mean the word nihilism wasn't invented. in the last 10 years like there I guess. I'm curious why you think this is like a. brand new thing well so it's a it's a. fruition of it is true old philosophy.

but it is a fruition of it now you do. see a rejection of God all over the. United States and a push from the. secularist to remove God from any sort. of public sphere you would have to agree. that that's true they want to every. every symbol out of court they want God. off the dollar bill they want God out of. schools any place that there is any. reference to God is there is a secular. push I'm probably not the person to ask. I really haven't seen this happening but. I'm not you haven't seen that happening.

I have not seen this happening I think. you haven't seen the endless demands to. tear down the Ten Commandments from. various cour houses you seen that's one. thing that I really do think is that I. think a lot of this stuff is happening. more on the internet than it's happening. in real life I really think no this is. happening in real life I think that. these culture War debates are really. happening more in people's heads than. they are in real life cuz I mean I they. put a statue of baffet up in San. Francisco a satanic St that was not on. the internet that was in real life they.

put a bamet statue up and all over all. over the United States Satanist will do. this as a mockery to Christianity and. endlessly secularist demand that the Ten. Commandments be taken down in courtrooms. that religious symbolism be rejected all. over the United States this is not an. internet phenomenon I think the the. internet phenomenon is the. interpretation of it because satanists I. I do not believe actually believe in. Satan I think they don't exactly it's.

they're secularists yeah that makes my. point though but if you guys don't mind. I will bring it back to the topic at. hand oh yeah sorry yeah it's F it's fine. uh why don't we do this. so how do you guys each what's your. definition of feminism and we'll start. with you um well I think we agreed on. the definition that feminism. is to promote the equality of men and. women. um and that the entailment of that is a.

destruction of patriarchal. systems sure yeah and you do consider. yourself a feminist correct I do okay. and you mentioned the. patriarchy one of the tenants at least. my understanding of feminism is the. patriarchy Theory there's a patriarchy. uh do you agree with that that there is. a patriarchy yeah she agrees yes yeah. and so can you give us a definition of. what the patriarchy is in my. understanding I think and Andrew you.

provide one too I think that the. patriarchy colloquially describes like a. male dominated culture male-dominated. systems um I think like technically it's. just like patrilineal descent I the. father yeah but I think that yeah I. would say male dominated culture. male-dominated systems um I think it's. just kind of used to. describe yeah the ways that men have. been in power and we that over systems. where men are in charge yeah do you. agree with that Andrew and under the uh.

patriarchy I mean do you view that women. are. oppressed I think absolutely globally I. I don't know how much I feel that that. applies in the United States today but. globally. absolutely and Andrew do you think that. women are oppressed in the well depend. on what we would consider oppression to. be right well let's start there how do. you how do you Define. oppression I would say.

probably the unjust like wielding of. Power by one group over another to to. prevent them from acting in their free. will I'm sorry I have to do this but I. do have to get a little bit into your. presupposition there um what is Justice. I mean that that is a that's a. philosophical debate I I well but you're. appealing to it yeah I would say that. Justice. is at it's very very like core. definition probably just closer to the.

definition of equality like equal. treatment so anything which is unequal. is. oppression depends on what you mean by. unequal I guess like if two people you. believe that egalitarian perform. unequally like on a test like no I don't. think that would be oppression so then. okay so then I what is justice. you know honestly I don't think I have a. good definition for for justice in the.

in the I'm curious what your definition. of justice is. well for me I would I would make an. appeal to uh Christian ethics in order. to make a determination of what is or is. not just but in your case right you. don't have anything that you can appeal. to do you you just appeal to what but I. mean don't you think that's kind of a. copout that you can say oh well well God. told me what what Justice is it's. Christian ethic. how how could you ever say that it's my.

justification is not good enough for you. who has no. justification that is fair if you're. talking about me directly um for for all. all of it will reduce to um essentially. relativism from your end absent any type. of religion is going to be relativism. there is no moral standard you're going. to be able to appeal to I think that's. true okay go ahead and try to appeal to. a standard that's not relative as like a. a moral standard I.

think minimizing harm that's relative. what's. harm well yeah I would take more thought. but I mean what what is the Christian. like moral standard the Christian moral. standards Divine command and this is. based on um the understanding that. knowledge itself cannot exist absent God. it's an X toy argument so it would say. the the argument it would.

be Rose donated. $200 Brian this layout is awesome these. would be great to consider having more. of with you mediating SL asking. questions between two. guests thank you Rose yes I I want to do. more of these whatever debate formats. we've done a few in the past and uh. thank you Rose appreciate the TTS. continue okay so in in any case. regardless of what I would appeal to. even if I said I appeal to a Flying.

Spaghetti Monster in the. sky I really don't have to justify that. if that there's no justification on your. end for what is a moral standard I don't. have to justify mine then either why. would I need to if we're both just in. relativism then anything that I assert. as being correct is just as valid as. anything you assert as being correct. okay but I mean so would you agree that. what I'm asserting anything I can assert. can be just as correct as what you're.

asserting if it's absent a justification. there just wouldn't be a reason for me. to justify so then what I would need to. do then is appeal to. force and so if I were to make an appeal. to force we've already established that. we have the Monopoly on force and you. can't make a moral argument because. you're a. relativist where are we left I mean so. do you discount any secular hang on hang. on answer my question sorry ask the. question again where are you left if. you're a relativist you can only appeal.

to relativism my worldview has to be. just as valid as yours so then therefore. we both appeal to physical Force what. else could we ever appeal. to I honestly I am not totally sure how. how we get. from there to to appealing to physical. Force because what else could you appeal. to other than just an enforcement to. your. preferences appeal to for what to. fortification any every would just. become Force you would just say the.

things I want to see different in the. world are because I want to see them. different in the world and then that. would require Force so you would. relativism will reduce to a force. Doctrine but what I'm curious why. Christian ethics wouldn't also reduce to. a forc Doctrine well the Christian ethic. can make a determination between an is. and an not so we would make the ought. claim that you should not utilize Force. to for what we would consider oppression. which is hardly patriarchy that's not. oppressive um but yeah we would make a.

Justified moral claim and that's how we. would uh move forward in a moral. conversation or in a not but from your. case it's total and complete relativism. and you know it's relativism whatever. worldview you come up with absent. religion is going to reduce to. relativism and so we're just going to be. right back to force again I mean what. what if God isn't real then I have think. do you think that has same justification. you do to appeal to force so could I not. make up my own thing that tells me what.

what is right and wrong and I can lead. back to that it won't be relativism. because I have that would be relativism. yeah I'm I'm curious how that's. different from saying that it comes from. God because there's philosophical proofs. for God if there's no philosophical. proofs that you could present for. whatever your Flying Spaghetti Monster. is then we would reject it I I don't. know if we want to get I'm I'm actually. curious what the philosophical proofs. that that go God exist would be or you. mean philosophical proof that before we.

get into yeah that might be a little. yeah before we would get into a. philosophical proof though just remember. I don't have to justify one because you. don't have to justify one so there's no. in other words coming to me and asking. me can you make a justification for a. thing which I can't justify why would I. need to do that we would just assume. immediately that you disbelieve whatever. my justification would be right CU you. don't hold it right so you don't believe. it so if that's the case we're still. going to be reduced to just appealing to. force again okay well then that puts us.

on equal equal footing with our with our. it puts us on equal footing with our. ethics and both of us are appealing to. force then ultimately if men decide to. utilize force in order and they have the. Monopoly on Force you can't make a. single moral argument for why that would. be wrong so you you disagree that. patriarchy is oppression yeah okay but. but hang on before we move the goalpost. no that was that was a question yeah. know and I'll answer the question but I. asked you one first the question I asked. was if it is true that we've reduced it.

all to relativism if it is true that all. we can do now is appeal to force and if. it is true that men have the Monopoly on. Force then if men used their Force. Monopoly to oppress women you couldn't. make a single moral argument against. that could you I I think that you could. then do then do so I I did not come. prepared with a moral argument honestly. but I think that there are philosophers. and and people who are experienced at. debating I couldn't know okay gotta so. you you disagree that patriarchy is.

oppression yeah so I'm Cur do you think. that oppression exists do you think that. people are oppressed in in the world. depends on how we want to relay what is. oppression so is oppression just um not. having the entitlement of Rights is that. just what oppression is or is oppression. that some people have other rights than. other people do. I mean.

I my my original definition of. Oppression didn't stand because I I. couldn't define justice but I would say. well Justice is super hard to Define so. I'm not beating you up about that no I. know I I think that I would say it's. keeping one group from being able to. exercise their will in a way that. another group is not kept in that. position so one group can't do the same. thing they can't exercise free will the. way another group can I think that would. be oppression to exercise Free Will in. the same way that another group can yeah.

sure you you you exercise your free will. the same way that Congress can no are. they oppressing you well that maybe. honestly I mean it does I think that. form of like government because. otherwise does imply some form of. Oppression yeah well then ultimately. wouldn't you be have to advocate for. some kind of bizarre. utopian utopian ideology where everybody. is completely equal there's no. leadership there's no government there's. no nothing wouldn't wouldn't that. ultimately be what your goal would have. to be then no that I mean that's fair.

yeah I and that that doesn't sound like. that's what you want no not particularly. yeah so if we move it back then maybe we. can come up with a different form of. Oppression I yeah I think it's difficult. to Def I'm not sure what the dictionary. definition of Oppression is but so P if. you've got your phone I don't care if. you look it up if you want to have a. working definition we can go off okay um. but. so men being able to exert Force.

whenever they whenever they would like. over women whether they choose to or not. is not oppression to you you don't think. that that constitutes the oppression of. women men being able to no it's a it's. an entailment of their ontology so. they're able they are able to make a. distinction and say that the the what. you are and what they are are different. and them applying physical Force to. their aims is the same thing that you. appeal to so if that's true I don't see. how they're oppressing you what you're.

trying to do actually would be the. oppressive thing right cuz you want to. take them and have them enforce your. will I mean I think that it would be. there's an unequal amount of force there. and I that was is but that's baked into. the pie of what it is just because it's. baked in I mean how that could still be. oppression right I mean like I don't see. how it's oppressive for men to move into. men's interest and understand that force. that they have a monopoly on force that. doesn't mean that they couldn't be. benevolent towards women but that.

doesn't mean that they have to give them. equality either nor that not giving them. equality means that they're. oppressed I don't see how that's. oppression unless we're using not at. least not by your well I guess by your. definition it would but basically. everything would be like if if you and I. don't have the same tattoo parlor I. guess that would be oppression because. it's unequal I don't no I I not saying. I'm saying that would be the outcome the. the cause of Oppression would be the. exertion of force that leads to one. group not being able to.

exert you know the same same amount of. have the same amount of Rights exert. then we're just back to force again so. then what it's really a fight about is. force is that feminism really is you. wanting to use the force of the. patriarchy to attack itself yeah I mean. I think that's kind of inevitable I I. don't think that. disproves like the goal of feminism or. or yeah but why should they do that. why should they I mean I guess women's.

interest women's self-interest if men. have a self-interest to exert their will. and you know use their. biological strength over women then can. you not say that women have a vested. interest in pushing back against that. and trying to claim some kind of. autonomy some kind of you could say that. but you're going to end up with this. problem which is if that's true and it's. just a game of force between the Sexes. with the weaker sex attempting to. utilize the stronger sex to enforce. their rights then you would have no.

complaints if you're trying to utilize. Force for your aims for them to use. Force for. theirs and if that's the case then. you're at a huge disadvantage if they. ever. decide we're going to because your moral. argument goes out the window and the. reason that women and feminism is has. been so bad for them in the vote is. because they used to have a moral High. ground and now they're a political tool. because they have to use Force they have. to use Force for their political. ideology and they never had to before.

the vote but now that they're involved. in politics they're literally voting on. Force Doctrine because that's what law. is so it sounds like women women are at. a disadvantage in in in politics well I. it sounds like if you really wanted them. to not be at a disadvantage you would. remove them from politics because then. they could have an actual moral argument. but I mean how can you say oh you're not. at a disadvantage in politics if you're. not a part of politics at all you're not. advantaged or disadvantaged well no they. were a part of politics it's just that.

they didn't have the right to vote so. they still had women's issues clean air. uh clean water Education Health there. was all sorts of women's issues but they. would make moral justifications for. those issues and they had a moral High. Ground because they didn't they weren't. appealed to as a voting block for. instance um 1920 that's the 19th. Amendment okay that was never voted on. there was no referendum by women for. their own vote now imagine the irony the.

irony of women getting the right to vote. but they refuse to actually allow them. to vote on it yeah I mean it is ironic I. would agree it's not only ironic but the. reason that they didn't want them to. vote on it is because everywhere that. they tried those referendums women voted. against it because they didn't want to. be political tools because they knew. that that would utilize they would have. to utilize a forc doctrine of men so. they would have to vote that men enforce. whatever their will was that's why they.

didn't want it that was one of the. primary. I guess I don't see how that makes it.

evil it sounds like you don't really. think that the use of force is. necessarily evil or the threat of force. is necessarily evil no then neither do. you because you've just you've just said. a thousand times that you'll utilize it. to get whatever it is that you want yeah. I don't think it's necess I don't think. it's evil I think. that doctrine of well because. egalitarianism is trying to convince. women that they're equal to men while at. the same time they have to appeal heal. to men for their equality it's it's a. not only a contradiction but it's.

Insanity because it ultimately sets them. up for failure believing that they're. equal with a patriarchal system which. could at any time take away whatever. their perception is of of uh of equality. they can just overnight gone and there's. not really anything women can do about. it it's insane to me to think that um a. bunch of Rich industrialists were able. to convince women. and they didn't even really convince. them they convinced congressmen which. how you got the 19th but bunch of Rich.

indust industrialists convinced women. that they're they were best served being. men and they're not they're not best. served being men they're not best served. uh out in the workforce they're really. that's not their function never really. has been their function and they're just. kind of pretending but I mean who's to. say that how how can you be. the the the judge of that that what what. best serves women is I. because right now we can look at the. current society which we live in and we.

can understand how we got here and we. can understand we'll start with the. birth rate which you talk about quite a. bit okay being in the toilet that's due. to anti-natalist feminist policy and. also but how can you how can you say. that the birth rate declining is not due. to pollutants in the water it's not due. to the way we eat which is it's due to. birth control but I mean how can you say. that there's there's a because we have. all the data that shows that it's due. what data shows that that eliminates all. confounding factors of of pollution of.

because if you take a scale there's. actually a scale and you can look it up. now on your phone if you want to but you. can actually watch when birth control is. introduced in the 70s and you can see. the birth rates go right and Mar abouta. massive Decline and the same thing with. abortion so the thing is but that that. still that says nothing about causation. you can put any two all CA all causation. is a correlate by the way yeah so if we. have strong enough corelates like for.

instance oh I don't know birth control. being a thing which prevents birth that. seems like a really strong Cor in fact. could you think of a single stronger. correlate than birth control for why we. might have a birth decline one yeah I I. do think that pollution likeu Plastics. yes come on pollution plastic pollution. yes plastic pollution I do think that. male fertility is on the decline because. of of of. chemical Chic that plastic pollution I.

mean can you just prove that is more. hang on I just want to make sure I get. this right first um you think that. Plastics in the water and the Plastics. inside of your system have more to do. with the falling birth rate than women. on birth control yeah because I think. most women get off of birth control. eventually and start having kids. when I I don't think honestly I don't. think that but it's that much later than. it used to. be used to be when birth controls a new.

advent that's something modern Oh you. mean so like not okay the 1970s I guess. right they were still having babies in. their 20s this the the pill was not as. widespread as it is now but I mean yeah. obviously birth control would be the a. much stronger correlate than Plastics. Plastics I mean I disagree Plastics and. male fertility you're saying that that. drops male fertility to the point where. they can't get women impregnated anymore.

I mean if all you have to say is there's. a strong correlation I bet you could put. put up a a graph that shows the. concentration of plastic in the water or. concentration of whatever forever. chemicals in the water or in food or. whatever and you could the same birth. rate graph Kristen ated. $200 she said pollution because she. wants to win an argument she's not. interested in getting to the actual. truth thank you again for making. feminists look crazy these clips are.

going to be great I do think that's the. actual truth. I I genuinely believe that there are. more factors to the declining birth. rates than than birth control because I. think that I mean and I don't think you. can really prove that it is birth. control because like I was going to say. you could put up the same graph of the. concentration of whatever in the water. and the birth rate and I'm sure it would. look just as close so I mean really what. I'm curious is is how you prove Let's. test the logic and see if that's the.

case if all women went off of birth. control tomorrow and had the same amount. of sex they're having right now what do. you think would happen to pregnancies. they would go up how much probably by. quite a bit like how much do you think. quite a bit is I I have no idea honestly. probably a lot now uh let us assume for. a second that we consumed the exact same. amount of plastic that we are right this. second and they all went off of it. tomorrow you're still going to see a. huge huge massive increase aren't you.

yeah yeah okay so now if we were to. retract this and say okay but also. pregnancies don't equal birth rate. because he used to say that all those. women wouldn't go out and abort the. children okay but but assuming let's. assume there was no abortion okay okay. if there was no birth and by the way. abortion is birth control that is a form. of birth control it's literally lumped. in with it but we were talking. specifically about the pill yeah so if. it is true that if tomorrow all of them.

went off of birth control had the same. amount of sex they would all start. getting pregnant because they would then. your argument that Plastics are. degrading men's fertility must not be a. very good argument I mean I guess you. could make the same argument if you took. all the Plastics out of the water but. all the women were still on birth. control I believe what would happen they. would all they would all magically get. pregnant now no I but I do believe that. the birth rate probably would increase.

yeah but not like it would if you took. them off the P so if you were to get all. the Plastics out of men's systems right. and women were still on birth control. still no more babies right well no. that's fair I'm just saying I don't but. the opposite lots more babies right so. yeah okay I will agree which is the. stronger correlate I will agree with you. that it is stronger but I don't think. that you can say that it's the sole. cause or that there that there is an. orchestrated campaign because okay I'm. I'm curious what you who is behind this. anti-natalist campaign and what is the.

goal to get the the birth rate to. decline what is so in the 70s there was. well I. mean this goes back but we'll start with. What's called the population bomb have. you ever heard of that book no okay well. the population bomb was a book which was. written by anti-natalist who were. signing the warning Bill saying that the. world was going to become overpopulated. and our resources were going to be. stretched thin and there was going to be. Mass starvation across the planet they. started dropping this book the. population bomb all over the world in.

third world Nations even and I mean it. was widely spread in First World Nations. and it was adhered to as a looming. problem it was all over the media and it. stayed all over the. media but there was a big problem and. the thing is is that while these. anti-natalist were pushing for this none. of the things which they claimed were. going to happen due to the the high. population actually happened the. opposite happened turns out the more. people you have the more hands you have.

and the more you can do what are uh uh. basically Logistics right so you need. truckers and you need boat captains and. you need farmers and you need all the. and what's happened the more people we. get the easier it is to get supplies to. people who really need them and that has. been the consequence of a larger. population that you can get your cell. phone made in China from Parts which. come in from all over the World. centralized there they make them all in. a batch they send them to North America. and all this happens within a couple of.

days that's a massive undertaking that. requires serious human power to do the. anti-natalist movement would have. curtailed all of that and yes it has. been something which has been pushed the. book the population bomb which you can. look up and you can look up the entire. sequence of events behind it where they. were dropping it all over the world yes. there was an anti-natalism push and. there still is an anti-natalism push one. form of anti-natalism is trying to. convince younger women to destroy their. fertile.

years by going to school and going to. college and getting tons and tons of. student debt which they have the. majority of student debt over men is not. even. close and instead of having a family. when they're young that's anti-natalism. to me I yeah I guess do you think it's. like orchestrated with the intent of I. mean there's no doubt that the. government's hand handing out student. loans and that the uh government not. only hands out student loans but really.

pushes the idea that women should be in. school and going for higher education. rather than being stay-at-home moms I. see the vilification of the family all. throughout media not only do I see the. vilification of family but they make men. look like bumbling idiots inside of. sitcoms and women the heroes constantly. I rarely ever see a a nuclear family. show anymore where there's a strong. patriarchal lead. and a typified American housewife I mean. when I I feel like that was always kind.

of rare I mean like I Love Lucy the the. the Lucy was was subversive but all in. the family was much closer to what an. American Family looked like than I Love. Lucy with Ricky Ricardo and Lucille Ball. now I that's what I mean All in the. Family with Archie Bunker was much much. more akin to probably what your grandma. and grandpa's relationship was actually. like so yeah no I think that there were. shows like and by the everybody tuned in. for that show for that reason because it. was so much closer to the reality of the.

American family than uh Lucy goes to the. Chocolate Factory and up for the. eighth time this week I know I'm just. saying I don't think these things are. are new I and I don't think that they're. in my opinion I don't think they're an. orchestrated like. anti-natalist push I mean who's to say. that some some women's realities are not. that their husbands are bumbling idiots. I mean there are so many I mean hundreds. and hundreds of documents which which. have been published everything I mean. everything from CIA projects which.

produced anti-natalist results and a. push for anti-natalist results you might. think that that's conspiratorial even. though they're all Declassified and you. can read them uh but yeah there's been a. massive anti-natalist movement inside of. the United States pointing right at the. feminists who started feminism who said. they wanted to destroy the nuclear. family having children was slavery they. said it all of them said it well that. would be that would be a feminism I'm. saying what does the government stand to. gain from because honestly I understand. what women in the in the 50s 60s and 70s.

stood to gain. from you know escaping I guess the. nuclear family but what does the. government stand to gain from. demographic pressures and it seems like. that would only there's only so much of. this I can get into because of the. platform that we're on okay so I'm going. to I am going to have to move off in a. second just cuz we have to but I don't. want to leave this hanging I want to. answer. it the the federal government itself is. at the mercy of lobbying. groups congressmen and even presidents.

are essentially bought and paid for not. just here but in Canada as well and in. South America where you have lobbying. that goes on a different way from drug. cartels but lobbyists themselves hold. the keys to the power in the United. States government not the government. yeah I fully agree with that yeah so I. mean these lobbying groups though. especially these feminist think tanks. which go to congress with these various. bills one of the things that they push. are abortion bills and the women's.

rights to have abortion right right how. is that not anti-natalist policy that's. orchestrated centralized then handed to. the government because human right hand. out to the but it's anti- what your. question though is your question. was right is this a conspirac because. that's what you're alluding to is this. this sounds conspiratorial but but it's. not and I just walked you through how. it's not if you agree that there are. liberal think tanks and these liberal.

think tanks are coming up with new and. better ways to streamline the abortion. process abortion most certainly an. anti-natalist policy there's no way you. could ever make the claim that it's not. it most certainly is and then they. streamline that policy to politicians. who then try to codify it into law how. in the world could this be. conspiratorial it's it business as usual. okay well if you if you really do if. we're saying that any sort of policy. that could be construed as anti-natalist. is as under the classification of.

anti-natalism then sure I guess I can. well what else is it it's a it's a human. rights issue it's a health care issue I. don't think any woman no I mean what. else is anti-natalism oh what else I to. me the way I think of it is like a like. an ideology are you what is the ideology. for what do you mean isn't the ideology. to stop. reproduction to me me anti-natalism. would be yeah like an ideology that is. better abortion stops reproduction but.

it's not an ideological thing like it's. better to have fewer children the the. yeah of course it is of course it's an. ideological thing no I think that the. people who are are fighting for abortion. rights are not fighting for it because. we should curtail reproduction I think. it's because they whether you agree with. this or not women because they don't. want the responsibility of children no. because oh women will die they'll get. unsafe abortion there's very few women. very few women who have to deal with a.

pregnancy which is life-threatening very. few that is that is not true I do not. think true the majority of abortions are. not done due to life-threatening. pregnancies I can okay I can agree with. you the majority of I'm sorry so but but. ni but even then the majority of. pregnancies no are not life-threatening. justat but also on the abortion front no. very few abortions have anything to do. with the mother saving the mother's life. almost none in fact they're the. exception to the rule I'm saying the. people who are promoting arguing for it. these these feminist think tanks are not.

they want it up to 9 months they're not. but they're not coming at it with the. with the ideology what else could they. be coming at it with if they want an. abortion at 9 months that's not. Healthcare autonomy the the right to. choose things things along the linis but. that's what anti-natalism the ideology. is about it's about autonomy it's about. reducing the burden on women and on. Society from other human beings this. it's a reduction of the burden it. requires necessarily that you reduce the.

population of course abortion is. anti-natalist of course the pill is. anti-natalist all of these things are. anti-natalism there's no I don't know. how you would argue maybe that's just my. misunderstanding of what anti-natalism. is yeah just one question on the. abortion topic yeah um do you think that. is there a cut off for you in terms of. you know when women can get abortion. should it be up until the point of right. up until birth or what what's your. position there no I would say the cut.

off for me would be at the point where. viability delivering is an option if if. there if there is a for instance if. there if there was a medical emergency. the you know preeclampsia something like. that if if the child can can actually be. delivered I would say in that case that. you should default a delivery but there. are children would you consider it. murder if you didn't no I no well then.

why so then what's I don't I don't. understand this this maybe you can help. me out with this. yeah why is it other than just I don't. know some preference for ick that if I. ask you if the law says they can get an. abortion at 7 months you say no I prefer. that they have it then I go okay but. let's assume the law says that that they. don't have. to do you consider that murder you say.

no how is that. not I I think that murder is is the is. the taking of a life of a person and I. really don't think you have personhood. until after birth even at 9 months yeah. I mean I would say do you have to go. through the canal like what if your what. if your head doesn't quite crown and. they just put a shotgun up there like is. that is that I would not like to see. that happen no I think I think once they. head is out of the canal yes okay but. it's not quite there right it's going.

she's you know they're about to do push. and he walks in and he just blast that's. not murder I want to I'm honest I want. to question that's not murder I think in. that case he would probably end up. killing the woman too but no no no it's. a concentrated blast no I think that. would be murder I think that' be murder. that would be murder but not the day. before no I mean you have to make a. distinction how is that consistent you. have to make a distinction somewhere. don't you yeah do you believe believe in. like life so then when is it a human.

life a human life I I think human the. the possibility of human life begins at. conception I think personhood is. different from from human life and what. makes a person being born that's it no I. think there's there's biological aspects. of personhood absolutely so a fetus does. have the biological aspects of. personhood but I think there's social. aspects the ability to be a social being. have interactions with other human. beings okay so people. aren't people people in what people in a. coma aren't people no there's I mean.

there's other aspects as well like. rationally ability to rationalize have. an awareness of yourself people in comas. can't rationalize I mean do we take. people in comas off life support all the. time yeah but we also leave them alive. and if living under score donated. $200 nobody disputes men are the. physical enforcers the issue is the. implication if women control men's. actions women would be the ual. enforcement arm men would just be the. proxy also prove God.

PS uh thank you living appreciate it if. you guys want to continue on with your. point though go ahead yeah um so we were. discussing why it is that the day that. the shotgun goes up that's no bueno. that's murder but the day before it's. not yeah because I mean I think you you. have to make a distinction somewhere. it's inevitable I mean you could make. the distinction at the day before birth. or two days before but you're always. going to run into the question of of why. and I I do think that there are certain.

I mean okay so if if you had the choice. between there's a woman she is is. like 27 weeks pregnant and you can. either perform an abortion on her. personally or you could kill sorry or. you could kill a 2-year-old child you. have to do one or the other which which. are you. doing uh if you had to do yeah you have. to you have to either personally perform. an abortion so from from my perspective. these are morally equal they're morally.

equal so which would you do you have to. do they're morally equal so whichever. one I picked from my perspective okay. you have to do one pick one well okay I. would pick the abortion and I would also. pick the other one if I thetion. available yeah over they're morally. they're morally equivalent okay so. you're asking me about a morally. equivalent question but that's why I'm. asking you okay now let me ask you a. question okay if oh spk donated. $200 your baby is due in less than a.

month and you want to keep it someone. physically assaults you and the baby. dies but you are barely hurt what should. the criminal be charged with just to. show you um why that dichotomy doesn't. work remember I did just answer your. question and told you which one I would. do right you said you would do both but. okay no I'll do the abortion okay okay. now should we have her do that hang on. I'm almost done okay let me just ask you. the same question back would you rather. essay a 2-year-old or a three-year-old. what the.

um what I'm I. got damn bro F but that becomes a. question of sexual wait no no answer the. question like I did if you're going to. make a false bifurcation for for a. choice and I actually answer bation it. is what do you mean it's not if you had. to do X or you had to do this which one. would you do I just just gave you the. same question back now you answer which. one would you rather that's not that's. not the same question I didn't say it's.

the same question it's the same logic. you're doing two different things one is. an abortion one is you're doing two. different things here too and what we're. looking for is which one you think is. more morally abor say either when I told. you these are morally equivalent to me. you said that's not good enough you have. to choose one okay so I chose one you're. saying these things are morally. equivalent to me okay choose one which. one I mean fair I I don't think that. see I don't think that they're morally. equivalent when I ask that question if I. if I can pull the same answer and say.

they're morally equivalent yes I think. that that essay is wrong regardless of. age right okay so murder is wrong. regardless of. age I don't think that abortion is. murder yeah I know you don't but what. I'm saying is that if you offer a a. false dichotomy or a bifurcation for a. hypothetical just remember that I can. ask one back the exact same way to test. your logic I don't I don't think it's. false I don't I don't think that it is. because I think that there is a. difference so maybe it it was wrong to. try to test you that way because you gen.

at months at 9 months I just want to be. clear if a 9-month pregnant woman who's. slated to give delivery the next day. gets gunned down uh outside and robbed. that she the guy is only going to get. charged with the murder of the. mom I I think that I don't really think. that the murder of a pregnant person. should be considered a double homicide. we do consider it that I think so but I. don't agree with that I don't think. that I mean like I said you have to draw.

the line somewhere and for me that would. be that would has to come out yeah I. mean do you believe in like no. exceptions no. abortion um I would be willing so this. maybe where I deviate I would say if. there's a threat to the mother's life. which is a non objectionable threat. meaning we're we can prove that this is. going to cause serious problems to the. mom that in that case it could be a. legitimate medical procedure I think. that that's a rational position I can.

understand push back to the position but. I think it's rational it seems. irrational to me that you can make the. determination that a baby is fully. formed conscious and everything else at. 9 months but that the day before it's. born can be aborted and it's not murder. that's that's irrational because at this. point you are the the only reason you. would say it would be murder the next. day is because you have formed it that. as a person but what is the distinction. it still has to be a person the day.

before how could you get around that. logic but I think you could still find. distinctions to be made even in the case. of like medical exceptions so like what. is what is a medical emergency like. where when does it become emergent can. you give her yeah that's why you would. need to be hyp specific about which. cases could be considered that and which. ones could not but I mean there's always. going to be I think you're going to have. to make an arbitrary distinction because. well arbitrary me system. $200 if I end a pregnant women I can be. charged for two murders but an abortion.

is not a murder tring is feminist trer. feminist but I I don't I don't think. that it should be a double homicide so. maybe some do but did we get to address. the previous TT that came in so so. basically your baby is due in less than. a month and you want to keep it this. this is from spk thank you and also. thank you Noah someone physically. assaults you and the baby dies but you. are barely hurt what should the criminal. be charged with assault of a pregnant.

woman but I I do think she actually you. did answer the question because you said. uh that you wouldn't considered a dou. double homicide I wouldn't consider a. double homicide but I think that our. legal system still an illogical position. because you are assigning it personhood. just the day after and so you would have. to I I don't understand what makes it. not a person the day before I mean what. makes a person not able to consent to. sex before the age of. 18 we decided that when you're talking.

when you're talking hang on when you're. talking about that fine I would even. concede you could make a case that. that's arbitrary or without system but. in this case you're agreeing that this. is the life the day after I'm asking for. the distinction that doesn't make it a. life the day. before I mean I do think it's somewhat. arbitrary I think that you have so. there's. nothing I think that you have to draw. the line somewhere I mean no I don't. think they're really really is anything. but also so the only thing that makes it. not alive the day before I don't believe.

in abortion up until the moment of birth. for that doesn't happen but you just. said you did did I say that I think you. said it has to come out before Oh I. think it has to come out to be. considered a person I don't think that. like I said first of all I don't think. that women are getting abortions up. until the the point not saying that they. are um but that doesn't mean that. there's noten who don't I think he asked. and I I said that I think that up until. like viability. basically like if it could be delivered. without complication yeah but there was. a counter to that which was when I asked.

you okay but the law says let's say you. can have it up to 9 months if they go. ahead and follow the law and do have it. is that murder and you said no and so at. that point you're giving it. justification so you don't really. believe or whatever your belief is that. they should is just arbitrary as well. they just should because I think they. should right no I I. mean there there is no no like. biological consensus on when when. personhood begins or philosophical. consensus on when there is a biolog well.

personhood when you say personhood that. doesn't mean anything that's just. nonsense no it's it's a Phil it's a. legal concept I mean we don't give right. but the reason it's nonsense is because. you can never tell me what a person is. there is there's no consensus I mean. that is it's consus is not a thing we. need to appeal to to make a. determination about what is true and. what is not how do we consensus in fact. appealing to consensus would be an. argument at populum it would be. fallacious and and of itself you could. tell me what a person is um without.

appealing to a majority what is it I. there I I said I think there are a. number of of aspects to it I don't know. but in in law you know so you don't know. I don't know hang on you don't know what. a person is you don't know when a. person's formed you don't know when a. person should be born but you're okay. with people taking out fetuses at the 9. month is that is that the case I don't. know when they're a person I don't know. when we should stop abortions and I. don't consider abortion 9 months the day.

before it to be murder you didn't say. the day before but the day before no I I. do think that would be that would be. distasteful to me just my just my Mur no. I don't okay well then then you're not. assigning personhood but you don't know. when a person is a person so I don't. like I don't understand I know when I. know when when at Birth at birth that's. what and what makes them a person at. Birth and not the before the act of. birth yeah what about that act suddenly. gives them the same qualia that they did.

not have the day before being born into. the world to exist as a person no longer. you're still in the world what do you. mean you're still in the world once they. cut the court you're not you're not. physically so the umbilical cord is the. distinction between a person no that was. that was more of a what is the distin. what makes him a. person nothing there there I I've. already said it was arbitrary so what. makes him a person is you made it the. up that's what makes him a person I. mean yeah honestly a lot of the things. in law you do have to make up some sort. of. Distinction just want to make sure we're.

clear before we move on to a different. topic last thing on the uh pro-choice. versus pro-life argument Andrew you. might recall the state where they passed. this law but there was there's a state. where they passed a law where men could. be on the hook for child support before. the child was even born maybe it was. Kentucky if ICT it was um would you. agree with that that uh before the child. is even born that men ought to be on the. hook for child.

support I no I don't think. so no okay why not I I. think I mean if a man has has. decided not to be a part of the of the. child's life I mean in that case I guess. you could say Well then why she be. responsible for child support after. birth but.

I I haven't really thought about I. haven't thought. about this at all I didn't know that. this what about in States where there's. abortion banss do you think it'd be more. justified in that. scenario yeah okay I do I I actually. yeah sure okay uh moving on I did have a. question so we talked a little bit about. the. patriarchy um and you say that that. there is a patriarchy you know you I've. I've often heard terms used by uh.

feminists like smash the. patriarchy uh not only are there. criticisms it seems of the patriarchy by. feminists but you also if if it does. exist and that's seems to be what's. asserted by feminists that you wish. to uh get rid of it I guess my question. is to both of you uh well perhaps more. specifically to you if there is a. patriarchy what ought to replace. it I think that's a good question.

I I don't know if it's possible to. because of basically what you described. and I do agree that men are able to. exert force over women I don't know if. it's really ever possible to eliminate. the. patriarchy I think that if it were. eliminated. egalitarianism would be my would be my. preferred system where there is no one. sex that is is exerting an undue amount. of force on the other and sort of a mat.

matriarchy should there be a matriarchy. I don't I don't think I mean maybe that. would be justice but I I don't think. that that would be my ideal system no I. think it just why would that be Justice. well if if we're using the definition of. you know writing a wrong like the. justice system do you mean like Revenge. yeah that's yeah basically renge I don't. I don't think that that would be my uh. my ideal system but uh well so would. answer the question by saying that. whether you like it or not there is. always going to be if we consider.

patriarchy to be the dominance of men. that's an inescapable fact it can be. hidden for a while it can be pretended. that it's not true and people can act as. though it's not true and people can act. as though they have a higher set of. values that they're moving towards But. ultimately it will always reduced to. force and it the pendulum and clock will. always go back the other direction and. men will take rights away from other men. and women and this will always be the. cycle and it has to actually be that way.

because what ends up happening is. through the form of egalitarianism comes. its own special breed of Oppression and. that oppression in the ever search and. the ever expanse for. egalitarianism is what we see now which. is anti-natalism and oppression towards. men male groups oppression towards. specific male groups over other male. groups all in the name of trying to make. things equal and So eventually it all. just gets reset with Force this is what. we see time and time again as Society.

gets more and more decadent yeah I don't. think that that means that feminism. shouldn't exist though I think just. because something is as you say it. inevitable I think that you should still. be able to push back against things and. and maybe hold them off I guess is the. wrong way to say it but if if it's. producing undesirable outcomes for women. then regardless of whether or not it's. desirable undesirable outcomes do you. think that the desirable outcomes are. the fact that we went from having a 4%.

divorce to having a 55% divorce we went. from almost no women having mental. illness to one in four women having. mental illness you think the fact that. the female hormone regulation from birth. control which leads this mental illness. has been good I mean I can go on and on. and on and I can explain why I think a. lot of those things are good okay I. can't wait to hear it higher higher. divorce rate I think there's probably a. lot of women in the past when there was. a 4% divorce rate that wished they could. have gotten divorced but they felt.

either through social pressure or they. just legally couldn't get divorced were. not able to and I think that if more. women are getting divorced it's really. bad for children because and we know. it's really bad for children because we. see what happens when you come from a. single mother home absent a father in. the home and what happens with your. criminality what happens with the end. results of children who come out of. these environments is really really bad. and not only that but here's one of the. reasons it's so bad it's because if.

women replace the biological father with. a stepfather the chances for abuse. exponentially Skyrocket much much much. higher no I marriage is about children. not about you and this is where I have. to defer to the evil of feminist. ideology there is nothing that could. possibly be considered more virtuous. than staving off your own happiness for. that of your children do you think happy. children are are reared in an unhappy. marriage though do you really think that.

that's healthy for children we I would. assume that back when we had the 4%. everybody was just miserable. kind of oh yeah and you could support. this with what other than you just made. it up I mean what what can you support. the fact they weren't all miserable with. well wait a second I don't have to prove. a negative to your positive claim that. they were I mean that's true but I we. can talk to people who I mean my parents. are are 60. that's true we can we can go back to the. World War II generation and we can talk. to them and their their happiness.

ratings were through the freaking roof. in comparison and especially mental. illness ratings grid One Motorsports. donated. $200 the patriarchy are real men that. are capable of great violence and equal. measures of kindness and value women. that do not value themselves the. patriarchy stands ready to save you from. yourselves. by the way uh resp let's we we should. keep the chats nice if we can but grid. one thank you man let me do read a few.

of these chats and we'll get right back. into it sure hey Sean Andrew said or. Andrew is it's a little hard to read. that 100 100 on the feminist going for. decline in the population thank you Sean. appreciate it he also says this feminist. is freaking crazy wow I don't apparently. you're apparent I don't think I'm crazy. I think you can disagree with what I'm. saying but I don't think crazy is. irrational. and it's irrational to say that there's. a human being who could be born on. Tuesday but on Monday if you destroy it.

as long as it's inside of a womb that's. not a human being and so therefore not. murder that's actually irrational I. don't think that's irrational I think. that well then you should be able to. make the personhood distinction if you. gave me good some good time I probably. could come up with a rational argument. for it let me read this last one here we. have Alan varges Alex uh 200 from Canada. thank you man appreciate it Mery buku. she should rewatch The Show to see how. dumb she was in this show trying to. justify your arguments leave feminism. and save your life Andrew thanks for.

being here and breaking these stupid and. dangerous World Views of feminist and. look I think we should give you credit. uh you've maximum credit you've come on. to to debate um and uh so and she's also. an amateur at it and I've done hundreds. of debates and I'm going to give credit. where credits due there's very few. feminists who are willing to back up. their ideology and I think for the most. part this conversation. debate has been highly respectful thank. you yeah yeah yeah um did you guys want.

to continue on that thread or I have a. couple more questions we can move on. from this okay so one of the topics that. came up during the show was and well it. was kind of a two-pronged thing but can. you be sexist towards men and it seems. like if I recall your answer well. perhaps you want to just restate your. position on that yeah I I do think you. can be sexist towards men I think I kind. of compared it to our discussion of race. and I said it was I think it's a bit. different from race but I I do think.

that you can be sexist towards men but. as you would agree you can't really. exert any kind of real force over men so. what's the you know what force why would. force be the requirement for sexism. sexism would just be you can be sexism. but I'm saying you're not really going. to be able to nothing will really come. of it I mean if if men have the power. and that's how it should be doesn't mean. that so just so you understand and I see. people always conflate this argument in. fact the super chatter did because.

everything will eventually reduce to. force does not mean that Society always. operates inside of the mode of force it. would just always end up going back to. force always inevitably so you can have. brainwashed societies which we have. right now and you can have people who. operate inside of these delusions and. operate as the though there is power. where there is no power in fact some of. the most powerful people on planet Earth. are able to manipulate people into.

thinking they have all sorts of power. which they do not actually have this is. part of a game of psychological. manipulation but that does not mean that. you cannot oppress men and their. sexuality nor that you can even even uh. the patriarchy itself so what what's. your definition of Oppression for men. since we were kind of going back and. forth on the just utilize yours okay. yeah so I mean there's no doubt that men. can oppress men and there's no doubt. that women can use the lever's power to.

also be oppressive towards men for their. own aims that can happen Okay so I mean. that makes it sound like maybe feminism. isn't so fugle then if we really if. we're capable of uh kind of if we're. capable of oppressing men then how would. we not also be capable of kind of. reclaiming that kind of power for. ourselves for our own aims when you're. talking about oppression you're talking. about pushing back against a specific. group this does not mean that. ultimately um you have the Monopoly on. Force men do but so think of it this way.

you're inside of a prison okay and. there's two guards and there's 100. inmates the two guards can keep the 100. inmates under control right but if the. inmates collectively go these guys. what happens to the. guards they they will die yeah so this. is It's the illusion of safety and. there's an illusion of systems but they. eventually always break down but that. does not mean while we don't.

collectively live inside of these. socially constructed delusions which. sexism would be one and a race would be. another right socially constructed. delusion that people cannot be oppressed. inside of them because oppression is a. socially constructed delusion too right. so the oppression of men is a socially. constructed delusion as much as it is. for women okay well then so then if we. agree on that then men can't be sexist. towards women ever but I mean so but I'm. coming from the perspective that we are. living and operating in this system like.

regardless of whether or not you think. it's a delusion this is how the world is. operating people are affected by it I. think we kind of talked about that on. the on the panel that just because. something doesn't necessarily translate. to like a physical objective reality. doesn't mean we aren't all experiencing. it sure you can have people who get. their hearts cut out on a temple and. their bodies kicked down because it gets. sacrificed to God and or their God and. um you know that's a effect you can say. this is an effect of your worship of.

this demonic deity which does not exist. right yeah so I agree with that but it. just doesn't negate my point at all well. I'm not sure why it's it's valid to talk. about the oppression of men under this. delusional system but we can't also talk. about the way women are negatively. affected by it we can we can talk about. and women used to they used to talk. about the issues that they had all the. time from the moral High Ground when. they weren't being utilized as political. tools so do men have the moral High. Ground now as political men um.

ultimately there will be a select few. men who will end up with a moral High. Ground through the church things like. this but generally speaking inside of. society politicians almost never have. the moral High ground so I mean if they. don't have the moral High Ground on. average why should they be able to talk. about their issues I mean why I guess. because they have the Monopoly on Force. okay so and and all of a your sub Ive. morality is going to reduce to force. that's why and so they can enforce. whatever the hell they want and might.

makes right if you're a subjectivist. what else does it make I mean that. doesn't sound like men are very. oppressed then it doesn't really sound. like men are facing a real harsh reality. saying that there could be the men who. are in the levers of power who don't. have great moral claims but can utilize. Force doesn't mean that you can't have. men who are oppressed in society even if. it's by other men but it can certainly. be done by women as well who have their. hands on the levers of power due to. which Shar delusion so why why can't. those women who have their hands on the. levers of power use it for women's aims. like feminism they do and what we end up.

with is anti-natalism and all sorts of. nonsense which is why it's going to. reduce back to a power centralization. where men eventually collectively elimin. women's right you can't prove that's. actually going to happen I can well I. can't prove for sure but I can show you. historically what the standard has been. has been this is that always what ends. up happening is the force Doctrine gets. introduced and rights collectively are. taken away from women it's not that this. is something I advocate be done I'm just.

telling you that that's what's going to. happen okay yeah that's an it's an. eventuality which you basically is. inescapable okay take your word for. it well since this was sort of a. two-prong thing and it stemmed from the. conversation that we had the other day. about race uh we could perhaps delve. into that. briefly so can you be racist towards. white people I still say no no can't be. racist towards white people no okay you. can be prejudiced against white people. on like an individual basis well why we.

do definitions then so um how do you. define racism I would say that racism is. it Prejudice is part of it but you have. to be in a position of power Prejudice. plus power sure that's yeah that's kind. of like a a nice like soci your. definition what's yours Andrew I don't. need to give a counter definition I just. reject yours why am I. wrong I I don't know I mean you don't. know why I'm wrong to reject that. definition why you haven't explained why. you reject it why do I need to even give. an explanation wait is this Hitchens.

razor or not going to get very far then. I don't know well it's not Hitchens. razor it's just to point out that from. your subjective if everything inside of. your worldview is subjective than you. saying the definition that I use is. Prejudice plus power why shouldn't I. just reject that definition as being. something I don't accept as being true. okay but then I mean what's how can we. say that any definition of racism is. objective well you couldn't okay then. then I mean like why even bother. discussing it then I don't remember good. question it was the one I was asking you.

the other night which is you seem to. think that race is a social construction. right yeah I mean so if race is a social. construction and all of your definitions. of it are subjective including the. oppression being subjective why even. talk about it wouldn't that eliminate. racism because same okay you are arguing. that this is all like a delusional. construction but male oppression is. still real because they're still living. it right even though it's all a. delusional construction so race is a. delusional construction the power.

mechanisms are a delusional construction. not the effect we've already agreed that. the effect that's my exact point the. effects are real yeah I understand but. that still doesn't tell me why I should. accept that definition as being true. well that's not what we were talking. about you were asking me then if race is. a social construct if we all just agree. it doesn't exist what how can there be. yeah but the effect is only real if you. accept the construct as being true. that's not true it is true no there. there are objective effects of of racism. of his because you accept it as being. true no I mean if you if you tomorrow.

say that race doesn't exist race isn't. real that's not going to change the fact. that no no no but if everybody acted as. though it wasn't then it would change. the effect I it wouldn't move people out. of neighborhoods that have been. historically redlined why there wouldn't. be any more redlining because there. wouldn't be any construction called race. anymore but those neighborhoods would. still be worse places to live those. people would eventually move off of. those neighborhoods and there would be. no restrictions CU nobody cared about. race right that's the whole point in in. that world where suddenly everyone wakes.

up and doesn't care about race I guess. and yeah in like 10 to 20 years people. could uh move out of their neighbor the. point is is for the social construction. of race and for oppression then the best. thing in the world to do would be for. people to just not even follow the. construction right and then if that's. eliminated nobody believes in race. anymore none of them are racist that's. not going to happen I mean the best. thing for male oppression would right. okay well the best thing for male. oppression would be to just wake up and. and and take all the rights away from.

women yeah that's that's not going right. exactly but that's the inevitability. that's but that's not going to but. you're saying that's not going to happen. no I'm saying it I literally said over. and over again it's an inevitability. that it. happens okay but is that you think. that's happening soon you think that men. are going to wake up and take all the. rights away from women I think that as. you see the. polarization happen happening and you. start to see things like the repeal of. the 19th moving forward you start to see. more and more conservative politicians. pushing back against this idea that.

suffrage itself is a great idea I think. that the voting pool will eventually get. limited and I think I'll see it within. my lifetime yeah okay I mean then why. why doesn't the case of race ignoring it. is going to be the best the best I'm not. even saying that it is I'm just asking. you why I should accept that racism. itself can only be Prejudice plus power. rather than just a personal treatment of. a person because we don't see the same. effects on on white people but even if. we don't see the same effects that.

doesn't mean that I need to assume that. that's racism okay so I mean if we want. to agree to a different definition. wherein you can be racist against white. people then I guess my question is why. would it matter why would what matter. being racist against white people yeah. if there's no effects if it's not. because they don't like it okay yeah. that's the same reason that you don't. want us to be racist to black people. right because they because there are. actual material effects that. that they don't like sure okay why why. keep women in the home they don't like. it some of them don't like it but they.

do like it so some of them don't you can. ask them but but those they've never. been restricted to only being in the. home that's never happened that's. delusional think okay but never happen. I'm just saying yeah sometimes people. just not liking something is enough of a. reason I guess to yeah so then that. would be racism to white people if. you're doing something to them that they. don't like right based on their race. that's racism okay yeah if we're going. on that definition where you can be. racist against white people in that way. I guess my question then would be yeah.

why why does it matter because they. don't like it okay does that mean it. matters as much as anti-black racism. yeah yeah yeah they don't like it right. so you think isn't your entire. justification for why it's wrong that. they don't like it no then what's the. justification for why why anti-black. racism is wrong is that it has been. keeping an entire group of people in in. a subjugated position for like centuries. well what if they loved that they don't. so they don't like it okay I mean so.

that's the justification is that they. don't like it right can I can't like. what would the actual justification be. other than they don't like. it it I there's a moral argument that it. causes harm to people and people don't. like being. harmed and the reason that the harm. principle is imoral is because people. don't like it I think it's bad for. society think it erods trust and why is. that bad because it harms why is eroding. trust do you think eroding trust is good. in you think a lo I don't have harm.

principle that's your principle why is. harm if it's harm everything which is. harm just means thing I don't like right. no that's not true I think you can give. me form of harm people. like. BDSM though then that you wouldn't. consider that harm within the harm. principle would you I don't I mean I. don't know what I'm not the one saying I. have the harm principle I well then why. do you keep appealing to it as your. moral standard for when something's bad. okay well that's fair that if you keep. appealing to it as the moral standard. for when thing bad then I'm going to.

assume that that's your principle for. bad thing okay I well I'm trying to give. you examples of things that I think you. could objectively say or a reason why. certain things could be bad they could. create disorder distrust in society yeah. I agree that you can give a zillion. qualifiers for things which you think. are bad but my question is why you think. they're bad what is bad in this case. it's thing I don't like thing I don't. like is harmful right sure well I I. could just as easily okay now I'm. Christian I've just converted to.

Christianity those things are bad. because Divine command says you can't be. racist how is that any more justifiable. I don't understand even if it wasn't. right and we both ended up directly in. the I can't justify you can't justify. then what we end up with is thing people. don't like still racist okay so then. it's racist because they don't like this. Nickelodeon donated. $200 you did a great job at defining an.

abortion line what's the line that white. people can start experiencing. racism yeah answer it like the well I. guess it's hard the line at. which white people would have to. be in I'm not really sure I understand. the question he's asking how much insti. how much less white do you have to. before you can enter into theoretically. having racism perpetuated on you if. people look at you and perceive you as.

black or a different race what if you. have Vitiligo I think people you can. still easily tell if someone is black. with Vitiligo okay just except maybe in. the case of like people who have extreme. cosmetic procedures like Michael Jackson. but there's always going to be Fringe. cases that are that are a little weird. but I think everyone can easily perceive. race but if we're just saying the bad is. the bad cuz that's what we're just. saying here the bad is the bad whatever. we perceive is bad and whatever we. perceive is bad is what we don't like. then if white people say that if you're. going after them based on their skin.

color and they don't like it then that's. racist that would be the same exact. standard you would appeal to I don't. know how you get around that well I. think there can be things Beyond there I. mean it can be a problem of scale like. what what is more bad if we're just. talking about what's bad what is more. bad I I say that this is more bad like. if we're really going to reduce it down. to that I think there's yeah but I say. that that's less bad okay well then I. mean what are we even arguing I that's. my whole point this is the problem when. we're going into justifications of what. is bad if it's just the bad is the bad.

is the bad is the bad you know what I. mean whatever I think is bad is said I. tried to give examples you w you're just. not going to let me give any sort of. like ethical justification that is. secular I'll let you give any ethical. justification you want which is secular. well no but you you will call it. relativism because it is relativism okay. well then I mean I'm kind of at a I. can't really do anything and so if it's. relativism then asking me for any sort. of justification is. relative so Rel relative to what I mean. to nothing because that's your. justification do you believe whether.

you'll give it or not do you believe you. have an objective Christian ethicist. justification for what is bad do you. well if you're making that claim if. you're if you're asking me this question. do you believe in objective. truth I don't think so no well then why. do you care what my answer would be. because I mean curiosity what I said. would not objectively be true in your. worldview right I mean.

you thank you Sean go ahead I just don't. I. mean I know it would not be objectively. true whatever you say in my but because. there is no standard for which is true. and so that's why we end up with. relativism and so when I tell you that I. have what's wrong what's bad about. relativism well here's what's bad about. relativism and it's reduction so works. like this if you have a standard we both. have a worldview and if I have a. standard for truth that means I need to. have something which is an invariant.

standard meaning we can apply all. standards to it this would require a. standard for knowledge and epistemology. okay so your knowledge has to have a. standard and it has to be a standard. which has no variant this is how we know. if a thing is true or false would you. agree with me that the laws of logic. which are required for us to have this. debate are objectively true. I. mean I'll say yes I'll say yes I don't. think are they or aren't they I don't I.

really don't know you don't know if the. laws ofic I don't know if there is. objective Truth for instance the law of. non-contradiction can you be here in an. outer space at the same time no okay is. that objectively a true statement yes so. what's your standard for that true. statement I guess experience and. reason experience reason yeah I can. reason that those things but you just. got done telling me there's no such. thing as objective truth well no I'm. agreeing with you now there is now there. is a such thing as an objective truth.

I'm always I'm always thinking and and. I'm always learning and if there is a. standard for objective truth an. invariable standard which you cannot. move away from right from your. perspective when we're talking about the. laws of logic you say these are true can. you. justify why we ought to use. them can I mean the. no one I mean everything is argued in. that way same as Christian ethics can.

you can you justify why we ought to use. Christian ethics I can but before I do. I'm I'm trying to show you why the. reduction here is wrong I would argue. that we ought to use secular ethics. because it's not based on something that. is not real but it's subject no no no it. is because it's subjective and yet you. just said that there's an objective. standard for truth but why should we. have subjective morality if there's an. objective standard for truth if we have.

an objective standard for truth wouldn't. we want objective morals because we know. we know a thing can now be true right. but I I don't but that's the thing if. you can't enforce a system of morals. that is based on something that only a. fraction of people believe I mean well. whether you can enforce it or not would. not make it less true or false if it was. moral right sure I gu I guess I just. struggle to understand. how ethics based on religion something. that not everyone believes is somehow.

more objectively true than ethics based. on something that nobody believes on I. mean there's lots of different secular. epistemologies they're all based on. different things they're all based on. just. relativism so you can't the problem with. it is you can't say that yours is better. than mine and but so asking me for. justification for mine's irrelevant who. cares no matter what you're always in. the position where it's just as valid as. your position and there's really nothing. you can do about that so asking me.

endlessly to make a justification for. thing which you have no just I'm not. trying to convince you that I'm correct. just trying to show you that we're. always always going to be equally. justified in whatever it is that we want. in society from your own worldview. there's nothing I could do which you. could ever point to as being bad because. it's just as morally Justified as. anything you do. I mean that that's all well and good but. in reality I there's a sense of like. moral intuition and how can you say.

moral inition how can you say that like. inition is is is wrong everybody doesn't. have the same moral intuitions no but I. think there are certain things that are. like necrophilia if we all had the same. moral intuitions and you think that that. therefore those are the right morals not. everyone has the same but I think there. are General things that we can agree on. and there's always going be people who. then why do we need feminism for all. just moral People based on our. intuitions well I didn't say that. feminism was a was a moral thing I.

didn't say moral is it immoral no I I'm. I mean it's not concerning morals not. it's not it's not concerning morals no I. think it's concerning the way so. egalitarianism isn't a moral position no. I think it's I mean if it's what well I. don't like not being treated equally. that's you don't like it right and we. can redo your entire moral uh. epistemology down to I don't like it. right no no no so it down to for my.

personal I would say it's a combination. of intuition my experiences of the world. and my ability to think and reason. through but we all don't share the same. intuitions right no but I mean there's a. reason we have we have classes of of. epistemologies clearly enough people. agree on a certain standpoint that that. there's a school of it school of thought. I me yeah for different yeah for. different branches of knowledge but. actually that would make my point that. we don't share the same intuitions or. otherwise there wouldn't be so many. different branches of people who have.

epist or uh theories of knowledge right. I would agree that I I mean knowledge is. a tough thing to pin down I don't think. anyone can really ever say what how we. know what we know and and what is we. can't but we just know that there is. objective Truth by your own admission I. I'm going back and I don't know if. there's objective truth I haven't really. thought about it so we can be having. this conversation and not having this. conversation at the same. time existence is pretty absurd I don't. know it's one of those things existence. itself is a.

contradiction it might be it might be I. I won't look I won't belabor the point. it feels it feels um kind of silly to do. at this point but anyway Brian do you. want to move it on to anything else I. I'll come back in just a second keep. keep going okay so anyway back to. abortion yeah right I would I would. still like to know this yeah go for it. ah now we're getting into more. relativism can you just you say.

intuitively then yeah the day before. you're supposed to give birth that not. intuitively. murder I don't think that I would say my. definition of of what is murder is is. intuitive I think it's based on the cat. is not intuitive I say the then why. would we have a laog in well I was going. to say no not intuitive as in like oh. you don't intuitively believe it's wrong. but my my position on this is not just.

pure intuition I think it's we've. already established that my definition. of personhood is not fully fleshed out I. don't have a fully fleshed out legal. definition of personhood but it's based. on my reasoning that before you are born. when you're still in your mother's womb. there's there's problems there with. considering that a separate person CU I. mean they're they're not a separate. person and they don't. have the ability to survive outside the. womb so then okay viability might be the. point of so if I fed you while while.

you're unconscious are we separate. people no but I mean well h i I would. argue that a person who is in a coma or. a person who's on life support is in a. state of altered personhood I don't. think they're not a person what the hell. does Al well okay they're not a what's. the delineation then what makes them not. a. person I mean I I really don't you give. them the same moral consideration you. would anybody else we don't take the. life of individuals but we can take. someone in a coma off life support we.

can take that's not taking that there's. a distinction here to be made okay I. mean yeah that's not taking their life. it's taking away supportive but we can. do things to people in certain states. that I mean the death penalty you can. argue that they did something to deserve. it but we have reasoned somehow that. murder is. justifiable in the case of well what a. murder is is an unjustified killing to. begin with right that's I mean that's a. definition that youve chosen what's I.

mean that's the definition you would. back up wouldn't it what else could a. murder be other than an unjustified. killing couldn't be a Justified. one I guess I mean would you consider. like killing in self-defense to be. murder no that would be a Justified. killing right okay so it's just killing. so that means it's it's killing in a way. which is Justified or unjustified okay. murder would be an unjustified killing. and killing could be justified so.

therefore not murder yeah so I mean. taking taking a life can be. justified yeah oh yeah all the time yeah. so I mean so that's why I'm looking for. your justification for why what makes. this not murder because from my from my. perspective if I went into a coma. patient who was not off of life support. and started stabbing him in the chest. you would consider that to be murder. right yeah so what's the distinction. here I because I do not believe that. fetuses have personhood I do not believe.

that they are because machine a human. machine I don't think that's necessarily. why I just think that they how can we. classify a fetus as a person it has not. been born yet that that to me is the. point in which a person enters into the. world prior to that they're gestating. when you say born right you just mean. outside of the womb well there's a. reason that I mean we have a word for it. fetus and you can call it a baby if. you'd like but the accepted term is. fetus and when it's born it's a baby.

there's obviously a difference and he's. an adult and that could be a child and. that could be a cousin and that could be. a you know what I mean but they're all. still identifying human beings if is he. an adult make him less of a human than. you being let's say a child or him being. my cousin or him being my aunt they're. all still human beings right yeah so. just saying it's a fetus does not negate. Humanity. no but I mean human is different from. our legal category of of personhood. human human is different I think that.

it's a requirement for personhood it it. is a requirement but it's not the whole. of the definition what is it what is it. but you don't you don't I would say I. there's a number of different things. that I said I don't know if I have the. whole definition yeah so what would make. you not not curious to see what PE. because I I know that it's Up For Debate. and I know that like the legal category. was established I mean I want to be as. charitable as possible honestly right. but if you're saying it's really hard.

for me to be charitable if you say the. day. before the day before you're slated to. give. birth if the mom goes in and aborts you. would prefer that she didn't but it's. not murder that to me does not seem like. a rational position because the only. distinction is well she's still the. baby's still inside the womb not sure. why it would make it less of a person. well whether or not you agree with my. rationality or my rationale my rationale. is that personhood begins when you're.

born and murder is yeah but why does it. begin when you're born what makes you a. person then and not the day before I. don't understand that I I can't figure. out a single distinction being born I. guess I mean that that just is my. rationale but that's just a process like. okay what if it was in a machine what if. the kid was was in a machine like an. artificial wound. like prior prior to yeah and the day. before I mean it's it's totally viable. to take out of the artificial womb but.

the day before you release the chamber. you go eh it and you press the dump. button see that that would be different. to me because it's existing outside of. its mother's body it is a yeah the. machine is its mother's body now I know. but it's in the same thing it's in the. real world we can I mean clearly it's in. the real world in its mother's body what. what is it in a fake is the uterus a. magical fairy world obviously I don't. mean that it's it's it's it's existing I. mean that's all I can say is really it's.

it's existing outside outside of the. mother's body whether or not what would. make it less of a human being because. it's inside of your of your mother's. body I'm saying it's less of a human. being I'm not talking about Humanity I'm. talking about personhood cuz that I mean. that really is theate person. then the fact that it is part of the. mother's body. yeah but it's part of the. machine I mean that's that's something. to think about but I mean like we. consider people on life support to be to.

be people yes there. are there are certain things that you. can do but it can survive the difference. is on life support you can't survive. without the life support right in the. case of the machine you could survive. outside of the machine in the case of. that womb now you can't the baby could. survive outside the womb they're viable. in the machine and in the womb maybe not. on life support so the situation the. artificial womb and the uterus seem. identical to me what is the distinction. here to be made so okay you're asking. like if if a baby is viable.

is an abortion murder in that case I. honestly I haven't I haven't really. thought about it because of the fact. that I think that viability should be a. limit for abortion but I mean. I I want to say no because I I still. think that that personhood is when. you're born and I don't think that you.

can you can call it murder otherwise but. then yeah I mean there's a contradiction. there I can I can admit that I just. don't I have a hard. time calling that murder I I don't know. well maybe something to think about then. if they have a contradiction in the. position yeah two other quick topics. then do uh if there are any super chats. it'll it'll be kind of a Super Chat SL. Q&A uh the Q&A will be through the super. chats so I don't know if we got into it.

the wage Gap was that a conversation no. I don't think so so uh typically there's. this you know familiar with the uh wage. Gap yeah do you think it's something. that exists are women paid less than men. for the for the same work I think in the. past they definitely have been I think. is it's shrinking is what you're saying. it's shrinking I think you could. probably make the argument that um I. think you could make the argument.

that women in certain positions are. probably paid less because there there. are. POS I don't know if I totally believe. that a wage Gap like a meaningful wage. Gap exists like in the United States. today though I I think that there are. probably positions where where women are. unfairly being paid less but I mean. is it like a widespread phenomenon I'm. not sure but globally yeah I I guarantee. I'm sure there are countries where where. women are getting paid like cents to the.

to the dollar. but but not in the west or not in the. United States I can't really speak for. any other country but I I don't. think no I don't I don't really think so. and I mean when do you think that. because you would you would I think you. would say that uh at least historically. in the US perhaps as recently as 20. years ago 30 years ago there was yeah I. mean I think that for example Barack.

Obama and I think one of his uh one of. his speeches or perhaps the State of the. Union Address he did say that there's. still you know he said that there's a. wage Gap um I don't remember the exact. numbers he gave it's I often hear 77. cents on the dollar 83 cents on the. dollar uh and that was as recently as. the 2010s he was you know president of. the United States was saying this so. yeah I think that when do you think it. disappeared if it did I don't know if. it's fully disappeared I think that.

legislation has been introduced over the. years multiple times prior to the 1900s. I really have limited knowledge but the. Civil Rights Act in part addressed. unequal pay so there there is. legislation okay that mandates equal pay. for equal work for men and women whether. or not that always happens in practice I. don't know I can definitely see that. there could be situations in which it's. probably not put into practice what. about for example in in sports for. example you do I I have heard complaints.

from feminists who will say for example. that uh women in the. WNBA or female soccer players in fact. there's actually a lawsuit by the I. believe it was the Women's National Team. filed a lawsuit uh that they were. alleging that they were being paid less. than their mail. counterparts um do you think that for. example. and it certainly is the case that uh. female basketball players are paid less. than male professional basketball.

players um do you object to that do you. think that there's. uh no I I mean I think that it is based. on viewership and whether or not I. object to the. whole you know it sucks that women's. sports no one cares about them yeah. that's that's sad to me I I don't really. care about either gender Sports. yeah I think pay is going to be based on. how much money you're making for the. sure for whoever they're making money. for I I don't know with the with soccer.

I'm not really sure because I feel like. women's soccer is pretty popular but I I. don't know I yeah I don't think they. should necessarily be paid the same. though and then just the last thing here. at least for my topics I and again I for. I don't recall if it came up in our. conversation perhaps it did but you know. seems to me like you said you you're. feminist you believe in equality what. what are your thoughts on uh military. conscription and the state the current. state of things in the United States. where only men have to register for the.

The Selective Service and only men are. subject to forced military conscription. any thoughts on that yeah I think that. that could definitely be an example of a. way in which the the patriarchy. negatively affects men because men have. been tasked with with enforcement with. with protecting uh Law and Order in our. interests and. well they're the only ones who can right. yeah so I mean that but so so then why. shouldn't they give themselves. additional privileges knowing that you.

cannot defend their rights while they. sleep but they must defend yours well. there are women in the military I mean. there might not be as many but there are. women in the military but if they. decided tomorrow not to allow women in. the military either this is something. which they could do why not just give. themselves additional privileges based. on the fact that you cannot protect them. while they sleep they have to protect. you and we're not ever going to go to an. all female military that would be absurd. and we would lose so okay why don't why.

don't women give themselves extra. privileges for doing the majority of the. housework and child rearing okay so if. they if you're asking why should they or. shouldn't they your answer is because. they can well in this particular case. I'm saying to you men since they can do. this right and you agree that they can. do this what would be the imperative for. why they don't do this because I I think. it would be unfair I think it'd be. unjust because I think there are also.

ways in which women put in an additional. amount of work I mean whether or not you. want to argue that they're equivalent. women do do the majority of the. housework and child rearing even working. women if it's Justice and Justice is. about what's fair then I think it's. unfair that women don't have to sign up. for a selective service and I think that. it's unfair that they're always for the. most part going to be held to a lower. standard and enforcement roles than men. that's unfair and since that's unfair. that they're allowed to go in and get. the same pay as a private in the Army as.

a male private in the army or a male. lieutenant in the Army I think it's fair. that they get the right to vote it's. fair that women don't okay but I mean. that doesn't change them there are. things that women are doing that men. can't do what give birth re well re okay. goad I was just going to say though that. the difference is though is that one is. enforced by the government like there's. nothing that a woman if we keep it to. Selective Service yeah right a woman if.

she was so inclined could go her whole. life. without she could she could not have. forced nothing's nothing's pressed in. yeah well then I I mean if it's between. that and and you know men taking away. all our rights yeah sign not taking away. all your rights okay well I'm say I what. do you think that women didn't have any. rights before they couldn't vote. no but I mean they certainly didn't have. as much of a say in in it politically. but anyway they did have as much of a. say politically they just were able to.

do it from a moral High Ground rather. than as a voting block I don't want to. get too off topic I do have thoughts. about that um no I do think it is an. example of a way that men are are held. to held to a different standard yeah I. mean if you want to say it's because of. biology would would it not be just then. for men to give themselves additional. rights like the right to vote no why. would that not be correcting and. Injustice because there I mean there are. ways in which women are like I've. already said are putting in an.

additional amount of work is is a. difference for you what way what way are. women putting in an additional amount of. work child rearing domestically when it. comes to when it comes to child rearing. first of all men are 50% responsible for. the children 50% responsible but they're. not actually in in numbers if you look. at the statistics they are not putting. in the same amount of hours it no they. put in all their hours at work taking. care of their families even in families. where the mother is working as well the. mother is still doing the majority of. the housework and the majority of child. that's because he's still doing the.

majority of the physical work so in most. two parent yes in most two parent. households the man still works longer. hours and makes a higher wage than the. woman does even even in those households. where they are doing comparable hours. outside the home the woman is still. doing more hours inside the home yeah I. know but that would just equal out if. the man Works 10 hours and she works six. then takes care of the household then. it's equaled out you would still have. this additional privilege problem of men. uh having to get drafted and protect you.

while you sleep because you're the only. ones who can enforce rights and you say. but. it's military right now why would men as. a whole well they don't fight in the. military they're not in combat roles for. the most part okay so why would men as a. whole deserve special privileges for. having to sign up for Selective uh. service when only some men are going to. ever see combat well then could we just. give those men the hang on hang on can. we just give them the right to vote then.

since they're the ones who ultimately. are I would be fine with that just those. who signed up men or women can we just. give men or women who actually did some. kind of service for the United States. and the country the right to vote that. seems like an additional privilege that. they deserve and what is just because. who's to say that that fighting in the. military is the is the most important. thing of all and why would they need to. only fight in the military you could. think of other types of services which. they could provide for the United States.

in a um you know as a yeah but we're. saying that they deserve they should be. the only people who can vote because. they have signed up and and seen combat. and no well because men can't vote if. they don't sign up for the draft they're. not allowed they're disqualified from. the vote okay well I so men are. disqualified from the vote if they don't. sign up for the draft women not. disqualified from the vote if they don't. sign up for the draft so if we wanted it. to be fair why don't we give military. personnel the right to vote we'll do it. men and. women they do have the right I'm you.

mean only military personnel the right. to vote yeah because that because then. if you're drafted think about it because. then if you're drafted as a man you go. into the military hey now you have the. right to vote you have nothing to. complain about right you were compuls in. but now you have this additional right. nobody else has you can't get drafted. but you can sign up and then you can get. the right to vote too service guarantees. citizenship well I I just don't think. that's the way we should run things yeah. why not because I think there are other. important I know it doesn't sound very.

yeah what's wrong with that doesn't it. seem like it corrects a great Injustice. which is allowing all women to vote no I. think there there are other injustices. in the world I mean why say that why is.

that the greatest Injustice that should. I didn't say it's the greatest I just. said it's an injustice well then why. organize our whole society around some. some random don't organize your entire. society around only the greatest. injustices okay why organize it around a. a minor you're not even organizing it. around that it's just one deviate from. the process which we have now I would. say who can vote and who can't is is. Central to a federal republic that's. yeah but everything is having a congress. is having having 200 or 400 people in.

Congress is having three people in the. Supreme Court versus 10 is every part of. the process is important not one part of. the process is any more important than. the other usually so okay so it seems. completely arbitrary to say it's not. arbitrary because you would be. correcting for what you consider an. injustice so you have a process. arbitrary means without process right. you do have a process for justice your. process for justice is that injustices. need to be corrected and you believe in. Justice right I mean sure I I don't so.

then it's not arbitrary it's an. arbitrary way to correct the. Injustice wait okay then correct the. Injustice what would be the way other. than to make women draft get women women. also have to sign up for Selective. Service in order to vote but when women. sign up for Selective Service they. cannot produce the same type of soldier. that men can so they men are still. disadvantaged it's still not just. because they're still not a going to be. able to perform under the conditions. which are necessary which men can I I.

really don't think that that I. mean so if the only way to correct that. specific Injustice is to only allow. people who have served in the military. to vote then I mean how do we correct. historical like racial injustices what. do you propose can still join the. military and vote what do you mean but. those are completely those have nothing. to do with each other so we're so well. then if they have nothing to do with. each other why did you bring it up like. they were correlated if you're looking.

for the correlate who's who's barring. anybody from different if we're going. around correcting these injustices in. society MH why why stop at the fact that. only men have to register for Selective. Service yeah I wouldn't but my point is. not whether or not you could then go and. correct whatever else you perceive as an. injustice you still could just saying. this is an injustice that we agree is. not just this is something we can. actually agree is not just yeah so then. how can we correct for it if you say.

women should also sign up for Selective. Service that really doesn't correct for. it because they still cannot go into. these combat theaters and perform like. men will always be. unjustly in a non-equal way put in these. situations because they're the only ones. who can be but I mean women can still. are you saying the fact that men are the. only ones who can see combat is is. unjust because because they're the only. one no that's not the part that's unjust.

the part that's unjust is if you're. saying that it should be equal that the. draft should be equal it still would not. actually make it equal in service. because what would end up happening. equally equally is that men would end up. having to still take the primary role as. combatants inside of the military thus. risking their life and limb far more. than women even if they were drafted. so even if we did the draft it would. still not be just for them to be. equals I I just I just don't agree I.

think that writing the Injustice would. be just having women sign up for. Selective Service because I mean and. then you could and then just okay even. though even though clearly they're not. going to be able to perform the same way. men are and so you're going to have to. lean on men for heavy let women figure. it out I guess let women defend the. country we'll see how we'll send women. to the front lines of combat you think. that's a great idea I mean now with. drones and things I mean I don't think. it would really matter you don't no no.

because we fight wars in the middle of. the winter with drones and things well I. don't think there's a lot of like hand. toand combat going on in in the most. most combat is still infantry base look. at what's going on with Russia and the. Ukraine yes drones are deployed in. combat yes artillery is used still men. on the ground with machine. guns oh if you want to finish your point. I do have to move things on but problem. just lastly on that um so are you in. favor of equalization when it comes to. military conscription yeah okay so we're.

going to get into the Super Chat and Q&A. section so if you guys want get in your. super chats or your messages via. streamlabs uh here we are going to get. through them before I do that though. really quick guys just an announcement. we have another debate right after this. so after this is over be sure to stay. tuned Andrew will be back with us he's. GNA debate again uh Andrew while while. we're getting through some of the soup. chats um I'm going to order us some food.

excellent uh would you are you getting. hungry would you like us to. get any preference of food we could get. you something too if you want you do. pizza um I don't know what's or there is. there like in and out around uh in now. it's a bit far but uh you want we can. get you like rice and chicken and you. want something like that or from from. where like Chinese place uh there. there's. uh uh there's there's places rice and. chicken don't make it meat. H is rice just kidding want rice and.

chicken I don't know okay any we'll. figure it out I'll find the kitchen has. beef we we'll yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah. we'll we we'll figure something we'll. figure something um Okay cool. so uh let's get into some of the chats. here uh okay we have David trec maximum. respect This Woman's views and debate is. important you were right Sunday Andrew. was a song Time of the Season by zombies. a person only exists after they can.

exist outside of a. woman thank you David treak appreciate. that they're not even people they're. just wait what they're just things what. no these these fetuses you know they're. not even people the day before they're. slated to be born it's not a person it's. a it's a fetus we have Canada first. first Brian forgive me but uh I think. some wire's caught on your foot oh my. bad that's fine uh Brian forgive me but. I need to say it she's pathetic.

irrational and believes women oh guys be. nice if you can okay women don't have a. fair Shake of things also hearing her. talk like she gets to vote that's scary. also I on the whole like voting thing. Andrew brought it up some people in the. chat are bringing it up I just want to. say the views expressed by the guests do. not necessarily reflect the views of the. whatever channel uh I'm I'm cool with. women voting I'm probably going to get. dragged for saying that. but hot take it's fine I'm for women.

voting sorry Andrew I'm for correcting. injustices oh okay yeah all right you. know just not trying to get cancelled um. okay let's see we have uh Anonymous here. one sec it's sorry guys it's coming up. in just a sec respect to the woman. debating in all religion aside it's. ignorant to think you can't be racist. towards white people educate her on. slavery please you guys want to go back. and forth two minutes on that really. quick or did we already cover it pretty.

much I don't even think we really need. to um I I do have something to say about. the fact that white people have also. been enslaved and that you can't compare. the enslavement of of white people that. happened throughout history like the. Irish and whatever to like 400 plus. years of chatt slavery that was I mean. like our whole. conception if if I may jump in yeah go. for it if I may just jump inad history. no no no but I mean the slavery of white. people extends far beyond just what. happen are you talking the Irish in the.

United States oh when people bring up. like oh the Irish have also been. enslaved yeah well I mean there's a lot. more Barber yeah the barbery states no. I'm aware that slavery as as a as an act. as a practice has basically been. practiced forever as like prisoners of. War things like that I'm talking about. the system of chatt slavery in the. United. States was I mean our whole conception. of race which we we both agree is a. social construct is is essentially. constructed around slavy oh you don't.

agree you don't agree I never agreed to. that I just said your world view is that. it is yes well because it it's. constructed around the institution of of. child slavery as a justification for. child. slavery. race yes the con the conceptions of race. in the United States like the conception. of white supremacy in the United States. is a justification for the incredibly. important at the time economic.

institution of slavery this sort of. like okay well they're they're not human. you know so we can we can continue this. this thing that we need so greatly for. our Agriculture and our industry it is. it it's formed around around. slavery okay let's just grant it for a. second so that. you know we're on the same. page the hell would that have to do with. whites having been enslaved what would. it have to do with whites having been.

enslaved I'm saying that the just the. impact is far greater I I than on whites. being enslaved yeah how in the hell. could you ever quantify that easily I. mean then then easily do it I've pointed. out multiple cases of of anti-black. racism in the United States and policies. that have kept black people in a. subjugated economic position to white. people. and I would argue that you could trace. pretty much all of that back to. slavery okay because I mean I don't I. still don't understand the argument so.

if you're saying to. me that anti-white and and maybe we're. speaking past each other so I want to. try to make sure I get this. right anti-white racism can't exist. because of chatt slavery being so much. worse than whites having been. historically oppressed beia slavery I. don't think that's necessarily why it. can't exist but. top but I think that is is one piece of. evidence for one piece of evidence for I.

mean yeah yeah everything on it when you. have when you have something like that. going on for hundreds of years it's. pretty hard to compare the situations of. two groups of people. when nearly every black person in the. United States unless their parents. immigrated more recently I mean are. descended from people who were enslaved. and very few white people in the United. States if any I wouldn't really be able. to think have so like all the Nigerians.

who come over here from the last 30. years were all slaves well I was saying. except for people who have immigrated. from other countries more recently don't. don't those people who immigrate in from. those other countries uh don't they have. some kind of privilege that they can. attach themselves to what is perceived. as being a minority group even though. they did not suffer the same syst iic. oppression I mean I would say. colonialism was also pretty bad Oho that. so everybody so maybe the. Ethiopian colonialism colonialism uh is.

a thing that we should be punished for. but shouldn't uh shouldn't Africans for. instance be punished for war with. everybody else I think we should be. punished for it I think see that's. another thing is I don't think it's. about punishment or guilt I think it's. just about acknowledging the fact that. this is a reality well if you're. correcting an injustice it see it sounds. sure sounds like a punishment how was I. mean so you say for instance if if um if. Nigerians come here okay in the last 30. years and they attach themselves to a.

group where they don't have any historic. oppression here none but are able to. benefit from it isn't that actually. minorities utilizing what you would. consider the minority system to uh to. game it and possibly oppress whites no I. don't think so because I think by virtue. of moving to this country you are you. are perceived within within whatever. racial boundaries all those poor people. were eating out of the garbage can the. night before and they they go to the.

United States I they do you think they. feel super. oppressed one quick back and forth from. the both of you and then we got to move. on but yeah I I all I'm saying is that. the slavery that white people have been. subjected to is not the same as child. slavery that that specifically black. people were subjected to it's just not. the same you just mean in the United in. the United States they're not. comparable all right we have. David. trec personhood is concept when the.

child is viable should never be a a bobo. okay third trimester schorin are so rare. one in 100,000 for mother's life. feminization is reason for birth decline. for sure though feem. feminization is the reason for birth. decline B show though I don't I don't. know I I not I have no thoughts on that. all right thank you uh David good to see. you in the chat thank you man appreciate. your patronage the smartest man in the.

world says if fem want revenge for men's. sacrifices for women why shouldn't men. immediately fill every National Cemetery. with an equal number of feminists and. the. bankers we'll skip that one wait what. skip it what oh sorry I I don't like. pre-read living uncore donated. $200 Andrew everything on it Wilson has. a face only Rachel could love true Brian. face looking thick over there you.

getting a salad tell me you're getting a. salad yes sandrew I interrupted get over. it you didn't actually interrupt do I. look red too I think I look I sent that. chat in from my phone how does it feel. that you didn't get a chance to. interrupt me with your Super Chat which. you attempting to interrupt me with how. does that make you feel but you are. right that I have a face only my wife. could love also disavow the previous. chat I don't like pre-read these I just. pull them up and I start reading. someone's gonna eventually there's.

probably been a few times right Nick. where I start reading it and I'm like uh. oh okay probably shouldn't read that uh. hey it's the nature of a live show uh. mc2100 Brian tell the truth 150 plus. episodes and hundreds if not thousand. plus women on the show don't sugarcoat. it are we screwed yet are we. screwed well we've definitely had I. think probably yeah about a thousand. women on the show um look I think uh the. the thing is though is that there's a. lot of women who come on the show who.

can stay quiet for a good portion of it. uh and I don't know maybe they agree. they disagree but I think there's plenty. of great wonderful women out there um. but I mean I do think the influence of. uh well I don't know I shouldn't I. should try to be a. bit unbiased since well it's the end of. the show it yeah I think the. influence of feminism has not been um. great great for I mean a variety of. reasons obviously we have a global.

sexual Marketplace dating apps social. media the internet has definitely had an. impact on dating and relationships and. also just people's uh mental well-being. too um so are we. screwed I don't know that's probably. okay thank you mc2100 thank you probably. probably and then we have Sean here over. on YouTube uh just a reminder guys by. the way if you get your last ones in CU. we're going to if you if you want any.

anything red we are going to wrap up. here pretty soon although if you can do. it try to do it through streamlabs as. YouTube takes their brutal 30% cut but. thank you Sean appreciate it not. believing aborting a 9-month-old baby is. murder is just. evil I don't know what what is evil How. would how how would you define evil is. the oppression towards minorities right. is is a fetus minority that hang on is. oppressing minorities evil wait what is. oppressing minorities evil no I Ian I. don't think it's done with the intention.

of evil no I think it's just kind of is. anything. evil in my own opinion yeah. what murder yeah probably but not of a. 9month old no I don't think it's I don't. think it's murder at 9. months no I mean I the way I cuz I think. about if I was aborted at 9 months I. would never know how is that evil I. would I would never know I've never been. alive I mean if you were in a coma and. you were murdered you'd never know. either that's true something to think. about H CS why when someone murders a.

pregnant woman are they tried for the. murder of two people yeah I mean I would. I would have to talk to. whoever made those laws I don't really. think that makes any sense to me but. that is. true all right hold on here just a sec. guys I think we're all cut up on the. chats there um do you guys have why. don't we do this uh closing statements. from the both of you closing St yeah I. can start okay um so I first thank you.

for coming out it was fun to do I hope. you had a good time I don't think it was. super aggressive at all no um second. your worldview sucks and uh you should. probably change as fast as possible but. other than that I appreciated the good. and spirited back and forth when it came. to enforcement um I think that she's. just never or you've never even thought. about this ever not for a minute as to. who actually enforces rights and that if.

there social constructions why we ought. to even follow them what good and bad. really is the dynamic of evil uh these. types of things I just don't think that. you've really engaged with too many of. those things before to be perfectly. honest with you so uh not to beat you up. right try to keep it nice and even. keeled but um yeah the worldview just. sucks so I would I would fix it that's. it um my closing statement would be I'm. very confident in my worldview um but.

I'm obviously still learning the you. know my my epistemological standpoint. why I think certain things are right and. wrong I can't necessarily debate them as. as eloquently as Andrew but very. confident in my intelligence my. worldview and also I don't think you're. screwed because I think that in real. life much of this doesn't really matter. and everyone's prettyy nice and normal. and yeah I think everything is going to. be. fine awesome did you do the thumbs.

up lame no no awesome one sec guys so. what's going to happen now is we are. doing another debate here with Andrew. and I'm going to put the link for that. we're we'll uh if you guys want to stay. uh I'm in this live we're going to do a. redirect over to the waiting room for. that one we're aiming to go. live uh 645 May uh at the latest 7 I'm.

going to spam the link in YouTube those. of you who are watching on oh on Twitch. Nick could you pull up the twitch tab. really quick for me and sorry guys I'm. having so much lag on my computer over. here so guys go over to twitch.tv/. whatever if you're watching over there. on Twitch drop us a follow please if you. can if you enjoyed the show if you're. watching ing on YouTube kindly open up. another tab drop us a follow over there. on Twitch drop us a prime sub if you. have one if you enjoyed the show and. those of you on YouTube those of you on.

Twitch just stay over there on the. whatever Channel there will be an. intermission will be offline for about. 30 minutes maybe and then we'll be back. with a another thrilling debate with the. debate goat the debate God Andrew Wilson. um sorry guys I'm just getting mods I've. put the link a few times in the YouTube. chat if you want to just um just Spam it. a whole bunch and um I do want to uh let. me see if there's one other thing.

here uh let's see oh okay so um I I. would like to State again the views. expressed by the guests do not. necessarily reflect the views of the. whatever Channel and we will be live. again as I mentioned in about 30 minutes. Andrew Wilson will be here debating. someone else uh mods if you can spam the. link for that in the YouTube chat I want. to give a big thank you to both of you. for coming in doing this debate and give. you a little extra amount of credit for.

for coming in and and doing this we. really enjoyed you on our dating talk. and I'm very uh thankful that we were. able to get you back on uh on this one. so uh because I mean it's it's uh you. know Andrews this you've been doing this. for a long time and and uh uh I think. you know we just actually I think we. just for the dating talk you're just on. the street you know so um but uh yeah I. want to give you absolute credit for. coming in and you know having being open.

to uh debating some of these ideas with. us so I think we that that deserves some. W's in the chat for uh for you so thank. you very much and uh well GG well played. to both of you last call hit the like. button please on YouTube thank you for. tuning in tonight thank you to everyone. who super chats donates supports the. show and uh let me just make sure we're. not missing any chats we're good guys. the link uh mods please spam the link.

head on over to the other waiting room. 30 minute or so. intermission and we'll be uh we'll be. back soon guys so thanks again for. tuning in 07s in the chat and we'll see. you soon.