Whistleblower Reveals the Largest Mass Surveillance Operation in History and the Coming Slave State

If you're over 40, you probably were. assigned the George Orwell novel 1984, not written 1984, written in 1949 right. after the Second World War, and it is. famously a picture of the dystopian. future. where the state controls everything. And if you can think back, the novel, not quite as. widely assigned now, your kids are. probably not reading it. If you're under. 40, you may not know exactly what it is, except it's like a synonym for. the state being overbearing. Big Brother.

is watching you. But it's worth remembering what 1984. describes because it is so, so. prescient. It does not describe a lot of physical. repression by the state. In the end, there is torture and there. are allusions to killing, but the state in 1984 doesn't spend a. lot of time putting gun barrels in. people's faces. It doesn't need to. What. it does instead is spy on them. There. are cameras everywhere in 1984.

Something called the telescreen, which, when the novel came out in 1949, seemed very space age. It was a screen. and it listened while you spoke. It. eavesdropped on you and it bombarded you. with pre-recorded propaganda messages. And again, when this came out, it was. impossible to imagine, say, the iPhone, which is listening to you at all times, or one of those seatback screens on. Delta Airlines that's yelling at you. without your permission about some.

credit card deal. No one reading 1984 when it first came. out had any reference point for this. level. of surveillance. There was famously a. guy called Jeremy Bentham, who was a. liberal reformer in the 19th century. He. had the like greatest idea in the. history of human progress called the. Panopticon. And the idea was we're going to build. prisons. with a round design so one officer can. see everybody in the prison. All the. cells will be open and one guy can see.

everybody. And of course he can't see everyone at. once, but inmates will never know when. he's looking, so they'll know at all. times that they could be under. surveillance and that will. compel them to obey. They'll be a lot. more obedient once they suspect we're. watching. That was the whole idea of the. Panopticon, meaning see anywhere. So, apart from that kind of kooky, supposedly well-meaning, but actually. totalitarian theory of Jeremy Bentham's, nobody had really constructed a state.

capable. of watching or listening to everything. that people did because the technology. wasn't there. You just couldn't do it. Until 1984. And it painted, once again, a pretty accurate prediction, as it. turned out, of what. the future was going to look like. But what's interesting, there's a scene. in there. where the protagonist of the novel, without being boring about it, but guy. called Winston Smith, meets another person and has a kind of. low-grade love affair with this woman.

called Julia. And the reason this is notable in the. book is because there are very few love. affairs in 1984 or in a world with this. kind of surveillance because they're. impossible. One of the things you learn when you. lose your privacy is that you can't have. intimacy without it. Intimacy is by definition exclusive. >> [snorts]. >> It is a relationship between a very. small number of usually two people. You. can't have an intimate DMV line.

or concert. Your bedroom, you hope, is. intimate and that's because not. everyone's invited. So, without privacy, there is no. intimacy. People can't say what they. really think. People are afraid that everyone can hear. what they're saying and so they don't. say it and after all they don't think. it. So, the main takeaway from the novel is. you don't need to beat people or shoot. them to get them to comply. You only. need to spy on them. and then tell them that you're spying on.

them, and they will know that they have. to constrain their own behavior. They. will be so terrified and alone, so. completely isolated. that after a while they won't be capable. of having revolutionary thoughts. They. will accept whatever you tell them. So, stripping people of their privacy is. the key to enslaving them. So, in the novel Winston Smith and Julia. decide, "We're going to try to have a. normal conversation." So, they go to. Paddington Station in London and they. take the train out to the countryside.

And they stand in a pasture. and they have a conversation. And that's. the kind of extent of their intimacy, but it's thrilling within the context of. this. dystopian privacy-free world. They go out into the countryside. and there they can talk freely. There. they can be truly themselves. There they. can be honest and be intimate with other. human beings break out of the prison. of solitude that the state has cast them. in. What's interesting, if you think about. it, is that even Orwell.

who died months after finishing the book. his last book. even Orwell couldn't have imagined the. world that we live in now in the United. States in 2026. where even driving to the countryside. much less taking the train to the. countryside. is no escape from nonstop surveillance. Because cameras. are everywhere. And cameras aren't simply recording you, they're listening to you and analyzing.

your biometrics, your gait, your face. There is almost, if you live in a. metropolitan area in the United States, no place you can go. from your bedroom to the grocery store. to the sidewalk in front of your house. or apartment where you're not being. surveilled at all times 24 hours a day. And who knows what's happening to the. images and sounds those cameras are. capturing that data? We actually don't know. And there's really no legal safeguard in.

place to let us know or to protect us. from the misuse of that information. Information about us. Remarkable. How did this change so fast and were you. consulted on the change? Did your local lawmaker ask you would. you like to be spied on 24 hours a day? No, of course no one asked. In fact, until very recently most Americans were. not even aware this was happening. There's been an explosion in. surveillance in one specific area which.

is. misleadingly named. automatic license plate readers. So, the idea is that a camera either. affixed to a pole or bolted to the side. of a building or increasingly in a drone. takes pictures of a license plate. and runs that information back to police. headquarters presumably or corporate. headquarters. And that information can be used to. track down the fable fable child. traffickers. Everyone in charge is so upset about. child traffickers.

There's not a single member of Congress. who wasn't very exercised by the. existence of child traffickers. Even the ones who opened up the southern. border and let in tens of thousands of. child traffickers. They're very upset about child. traffickers and because child. trafficking is America's most pressing. problem. everybody in the country, all 350. million need to be spied on at all. times, but just your license plate. Well, it's become clear in recent months. that these license plate readers are. doing a lot more than reading license. plates. In fact, there's no law that. says they have to constrict their spying.

to people's license plates. They can spy. on people. and cars and they could do facial. recognition and they can listen to what. you say. And indeed they are. So, there are a lot of companies that. provide this service. The biggest and surely the most famous. is called Flock, Flock Safety. The idea behind Flock Safety is. police departments. will use its product, its drones or its. cameras affixed to poles in their towns. to reduce crime.

And from the perspective of the police. department, it's a pretty good deal. And it's a good deal because it's a. whole lot cheaper. than police officers. Police officers. are very expensive. It costs over. $100,000 a year on average to employ a. police officer. Over the course of an entire police. career. through recruitment and training and. sick days and of course salary and then. retirement, it can cost $7 million. to to a city for a single police. officer.

But if you were to switch, if you're to. automate the process, if you were to get. a machine to do what people once did, it. costs you about 2,500 bucks under the. Flock contract. So, you can certainly see the incentive. Of course, lost in this is any privacy. or even interaction with a human being. with whom you might relate in some way. Personal interactions coming far too. expensive in the new. digital economy. But you can certainly see why. city councils and mayors and police.

chiefs would be incentivized, would have. great incentive to use Flock cameras. instead of people. The problem is. it's not clear what the rest of us are. getting in return. So, the promise, and. it's inherent in the name Flock Safety, is that if you give up your privacy, your. preexisting, you thought, right to kind. of walk around without having your face. analyzed and sent to headquarters. somewhere in this or another country, if. you were to give up all privacy, you. would in exchange get what? Safety.

Of course, and that's the trade always. The problem is it hasn't worked that. way. Because safety has never been. a priority. of this ruling class. There was a time. when big city mayors and police chiefs. and governors and even presidents said. explicitly, "Look, we're going to crack. down, but in return, you're going to get the. kind of country that is clean and. orderly, safe for your daughter or. grandmother to go to the store. No one's.

getting raped in my country. And we may. need to crack a few heads, but you will. get safety.". And for years a bipartisan Republican. and Democrat. agreement remained in place. That the first order, the first job of. government was to provide safety for its. citizens, because without that, what. else do you have? Doesn't matter what. your GDP is if I don't know, the. downtowns of your biggest cities are. open-air drug markets or hundreds of. people are getting shot to death. It doesn't matter. So, you first have to. provide safety.

But somewhere around 30 years ago, that. part of the deal ended. And big city mayors, governors, members. of Congress. sort of forgot that their number one. duty is provide safety to the. population. And this kind of reaches most obvious. and hilarious point 5 years ago when. those same people, members of Congress, governors, big city mayors, even police. chiefs. were calling for some version of. defunding the police. How about no. police at all? Oh, you think it's.

dangerous now? How about we just don't. enforce any law? How does that sound? And they told us that they were not. embarrassed at all. Opposing funding the police was a. prerequisite to being anti-racist, so it. was really a kind of moral test. Anyone who's for the police hated black. people, obviously, in case you weren't. here when that happened, but this was a. widely understood principle. And every channel, including Fox News, told you about this. Anyone who's for the police, particularly white police, is just a. racist. First cousin to a Nazi.

What's interesting is that some of those. exact same people, literally the same. people, are now telling you that you have to. have cameras everywhere. in drones, on light poles, and. buildings. In fact, now even in your. car, thanks to an act of Congress, a law. passed recently by the United States. Congress, mandates cameras in all new. passenger vehicles that assess the face. of the driver. Whether he's eating or yawning or who.

knows what he's doing, having a private. conversation. Well, there are no more. private conversations, even within the. confines of your own vehicle. Why? Cuz. safety. There are drunk drivers out there. Of course, it was only 2 years ago that. Joe Biden explained, "Well, actually. drunk driving's not a big deal when. illegal aliens do it.". Somehow that standard's been revised. Drunk driving is such a big deal that. you can't have a private conversation in. your own car anymore, according to the US Congress. And in. fact, that is a law, and it's going to.

happen. So, how exactly has this brand new, but. already incredibly widespread. phenomenon, flock cameras, license plate. readers, in virtually every city in the United. States, what has it done to crime? Well, it has not eliminated it, despite what they may tell you. So, one of the cities that has the most. license plate readers in the United. States. is Houston, Texas. Harris County, Texas,

which is a huge place with 4.7 million. people. in Harris County, Texas. It's about the. size of Oman or New Zealand. It's a lot. of people. And it also has a famously high murder. rate. Lots of different kinds of crimes, but murder is the most straightforward. because almost all murders. are accounted for cuz there's a body and. a missing person sometimes. So, murders go reported. So, we know. pretty much precisely how many murders a. city has. Harris County, Texas has over 3,000.

license plate readers in it, in the. county. So, you would think Think about 3,700, actually. So, you would think with 3,700 license. plate readers all over the city, when. you look at a map of where they are in. Harris County, I mean, there's nowhere. you can go where you're not being. watched. You would think it would be the. safest place in the United States, but. weirdly, Harris County, Texas had over 500. murders in 20 25. The murder that aggregate number of. murders, the total murders in Harris.

County, Texas has risen dramatically. over the past 10 years. Even as surveillance has become so. intense, there is literally no place to. hide. Now, how does that work, exactly? How is it that we increase the. surveillance past what 1984 describes, and we still have 500 murders in one US. county? Hard to know how that happened, but one. conclusion we can draw confidently is. that the point of the license plate. readers and the facial recognition. software,

which are integrated, probably not to keep you safe. So, if you're looking for a shortcut to. decode everything that you're hearing. about almost anything, discount the part where they say it's. good for you. Because that is not a relevant component. to the formula. Should we do this? Well, let's see. Does it save us money? Does it increase. profit? Is it good for us? Those are the three main criteria. What. it does to you and your family kind of. not on the list. It's not a variable in.

that equation. So, it is clear, in fact, it's proven. that if you turn a city into a. panopticon, you still have, well, in the. case of Harris County, Texas, hundreds. of people getting murdered, but you have no more privacy, which is. to say you have no more intimacy, which. is to say you have no more freedom. Because privacy is a prerequisite for. freedom. You cannot be free. unless you can have independent thoughts. and privacy. Independent thoughts are.

impossible without privacy. Which is why. when the US military wants to train its. pilots on what life in a prison camp. must be like, very often it puts them in a glass box. naked in the center of the faux prison. camp. That is a form of torture because you're. stripped entirely of privacy. There is. nowhere to hide. Everyone can see you at. every moment. And what does that do to. people? Well, it tends to drive them. insane. And yet the US government, state,

federal, and local has now constructed. exactly that. A glass box at the center of a prison. camp and we all reside in it. So, what do you do about that exactly? Do you go to your city council meeting. and complain? That's been tried and if you're. interested, go online. You can see video. after video of concerned and very kind. of forthright and reasonable citizens. asking their city council members like. why are we doing this? Why am I paying. for this? And what about my fourth amendment right. that prevents search unreasonable search.

and seizure without a warrant by the. government? And in every single case we could find, they're just blown off like some. annoying crank. Oh, shut up. Safety. Safety. Eliminate cigarette smoking. We'll live. forever. It's not like the life. expectancy is going to go down if we do. that. Oh, but it did. So, the point is. license plate readers are safe and. effective and if you don't believe that, you're obviously anti-science. Shut up, science denier. What are you for the.

drug cartels? Oh, no, that would be the. government. They're in business with the drug. cartels. But normal people cannot get a hearing. on this question. Congress has made no. effort to ban it. or even regulate it. to protect, say, images of you. or your conversation with your wife. and/or girlfriend or anyone else. from being sent anywhere. There's no law. preventing. other people from stealing your. conversations and your image in the most.

intimate moments of your life, like in. your car, and sending it to anybody or selling it. to anybody. Now, some of these companies like Flock. claim they don't. Okay. Hope that's true. Is it? We don't know. And how would we know? So, it's not an endorsement of vigilante. justice or vandalism, of course, which. we are not, for the record, endorsing. But, is it. out of the realm of possibility that if. you set up a system like the one just. described that some people will say,

"I've got no option. but to take these cameras down myself?". Well, in fact, that's exactly what a lot. of people will conclude, including this. man. Watch. >> Do you have plans to continue to take. down these Flock cameras? >> Absolutely. Oh, absolutely. They are a. clear and present threat to public. safety. >> 44-year-old Javon Martinez is facing. larceny, property damage, and tampering. with evidence charges after police say. he took he destroyed three Flock cameras. costing Rio Rancho thousands of dollars.

in damage. >> You know, you called me, but I am here. I'm I'm right here. I stood up. I I. walked up there. She wanted my name, but. I have a right to not bear testimony. against myself. Giving my name. constitutes testimony. And so, I just. chose to remain silent. >> Oh, guy in American flag shirt quoting. the Constitution. He must be a dangerous. radical. Better kill that guy. He knows his rights. That's not. acceptable. So, there are a lot of people like that. And if you go on the internet,

at least [snorts] as of yesterday, and. this may change in the age of AI, who. knows, but as of very recently, there are. dozens, maybe hundreds, of similar. videos of people destroying license. plate readers, cutting down the poles, running into. them in their cars, spray painting them. There are how-to videos on how to. disable them with high-powered lasers. you can buy on amazon.com which. apparently fry their circuits. We're not. endorsing that of course. But there are videos in other words of. people who don't feel they have any. other recourse whatsoever.

making one last-ditch attempt to. preserve the one thing that makes them. free in this or any other country, their. birthright by the way, and it's called. privacy. They don't have it. They'd like it back. They think the Constitution guarantees. it to them. Their lawmakers don't care. Their leaders don't care. Their police. departments don't care. They don't think it's to make them. safer. They understand that it's to. strip them of their most basic humanity, which it is. And so they're doing the only thing they. can imagine doing,

the only thing the powerless really can. do. in a situation like this, and they're. taking matters into their own hands. And. some of them are being punished for it. So you don't have to endorse vandalism. of course, and we're not, to understand the impulse behind it. And if that guy is any measure of who's. doing it, and judging by the videos we. saw, he definitely is a measure of. exactly who's doing it, it's not the malcontents. It's not drug-addicted kids knocking.

down Flock cameras for fun. It's sober, decent, patriotic Americans. who believe the promises of their. country. They're mad not because they're trying. to get something from Flock, but because. they want to be left alone by Flock. Because Flock was not part of the. country they signed up for. No one asked. their permission to steal their images. and to spy on their conversations, to. read their license plates.

So any person with any capacity for. reasoning. and with any empathy for other human. beings. may not endorse that behavior but can. certainly understand it. And enlightened people might work to. some kind of compromise. Maybe there are. ways we can use technology to lower. crime and make it safer for your. grandmother to go to the grocery store. That would be good. But maybe we can do that without. eliminating your humanity by taking away.

your privacy. But that's not of course the posture of. the billionaires who run Flock Safety. Safety. Here is the founder of Flock Safety. Garrett something. Doesn't look like. he's even 40. This is Garrett, the billionaire Flock. guy. describing. how he feels about anyone who disagrees. with his project. Watch.

>> corporate wars. looking at citizen projects where. citizens can concerned about the rise of. Flock and Flock cameras going up. everywhere and increased surveillance. everywhere. >> Yeah. >> There's an organization called De-Flock. who are semi-well known now I guess if. you're interested in this stuff. who take a fairly aggressive approach in. terms of counting the number of cameras. and having a Discord channel where they. talk about potential, you know, activities to move against Flock and and. stop it expanding. What do you think of. that organization and the way they go. about their business?

>> Yeah. So, I mean I think there's really. two groups of activists. You've got. organizations like the ACLU and the EFF. who take an above aboard approach to. fight for their point of view. And. thankfully we live in a beautifully. democratic, capitalistic country where. we can fight in court. And I have a lot. of respect for those groups because they. have reasonable debates and we we follow. the law. And then unfortunately there's. terroristic organizations like De-Flock. whose primary motivation is chaos. They. are closer to Antifa than they are. anything else. And that I think is.

unfortunate because we don't want chaos, or I don't want chaos. I I like law and. order. I like a society that has a. bedrock of safety. >> It'd be interesting to know where the. douchebag factory is that turns out. billionaires in t-shirts who run our. most powerful companies. What What Who. is that guy? He's a billionaire? Where'd the money. come from? Oh, from state and local. governments. That's It's tax dollars. Mr. t-shirt guy, Garrett Garrett Langley. or something. He just described a group called.

De-Escalate as a quote terroristic. organization. Well, what's De-Escalate? Well, if that's the only knowledge you. have of De-Escalate, you probably think. it's, as he said, it's like antifa. Guys in black masks spray painting. things and beating people over the head. with flag poles and shooting bear spray. into the faces of cops. Antifa, they. want chaos. Uh-huh. Well, actually, unlike antifa, De-Escalate has a website. So, you can. just kind of go there and assess for. yourself. What is De-Escalate? Well, the answer was in the question, and it was accurate. De-Escalate is a.

group. on the internet that tells you where the. Flock cameras are. That's what they do. They have a map. They're not for Flock cameras or any. license plate readers. They think. they're violation of the Fourth. Amendment. They think they're an invasion of your. privacy. They think they're. dehumanizing. All true, by the way. But what they really do is keep track of. where the monitors are. Where you're. being surveilled. And you can go on the. map. It's defloc.com. And find out where they are in your.

neighborhood. And by the way, it's. overwhelmingly likely that you have them. in your neighborhood. That you're being. watched. You didn't even know it. That's because the people who are. supposed to be protecting you, actually. protecting you, like the mayor of your. town, or the chief of your police. department, or your member of Congress, or your governor, they should be telling. you, but they don't. Because they don't. care at all about you or your privacy. And so, De-Escalate steps in and says, "Maybe you'd like to know where these. cameras are.". And in some cases, because the. information is out there, the guy in the American flag shirt and.

the sombrero is made to save all the. camera. Okay. But most people would like to know. And so providing that information is. terrorism, really? So think about what. t-shirt douchebag guy is saying. The. billionaire that got rich on your tax. dollars is saying to you. He's saying, "We get to know everything about you. Everything. We don't even know we're. here. Actually, we have a drone overhead. that at the distance of hundreds of. yards can see everything about you, just. like a military drone.". And that information is going, "Well,

we're not going to tell you where it's. going. I mean, it's proprietary. information. It's going to the client.". But what's he doing with it? He could be. selling it to insurance companies, to. other governments, to companies, to data. brokers. He can sell to all the above. That's not happening? I don't know. Mr. T-shirt billionaire, is it happening? Shut up. But in other words, he's reserving the. right to use tax dollars. to know everything about you, but if you. want to know anything about their. company, Flock Safety,

you're a terrorist. Oh, you're a. terrorist. It's a terroristic organization. Are. they committing acts of terror? No, they're actually disseminating knowledge. that he's not contesting as factual. He's not saying it's wrong. It's It's accurate. That's why he calls. them terrorists. How dare you? You get to know everything. This is sort. of the deal the government has with us, or federal law enforcement has with us. You lie to an FBI agent, any federal. agent, go right to jail. And then if you live long enough, you'll. know people who do go to jail.

for doing that. So of course the FBI can't lie to you, right? Oh, yes they can. So you In other words, your employees. that you pay, who work for you, an FBI agent works for. you, "Hey, get me a cup of coffee, son.". That's the posture. He works for you. He's your employee. He's your. housekeeper with a gun. You're paying his salary. But if you lie to him, you go to jail, but he is. absolutely allowed to lie to you and.

does all the time and faces no penalty. cuz there's no law against it. Well, that's called asymmetrical. That's. called unjust. And that's been true for a long time. But now you have a so-called private. sector company, a defender of what he described the. t-shirt kid billionaire described as. capitalism capitalism Oh, it's really. it's capitalism, huh? Taking money from the public without. their consent, spying on them, and then if they try to even know what's. going on, they're terrorists like Antifa.

who are against order. Yeah, so that's not a sustainable. system, by the way. And across the country, these very. obvious and clearly identified on. defluct.com, God bless them for doing. that, cameras are under assault. Hard to know. how many Flock on their website says not. many. Well, it seems like a lot. >> [snorts]. >> But pretty soon it won't matter because. they're going to be in drones. And unless you're an extremely good shot. with a tightly choked 12 gauge, you're. probably not going to knock one down and.

if you do, you're going right to jail. Discharging a firearm. So, they get to like hover over your. bedroom window if they want. There's no. law against it. Watch you and your wife. and listen. But if you take any action at all or. even complain too loudly or tell other. people that it's happening, you're a terrorist. Okay, now. So, while we can, in other words, while. these surveillance devices, this whole. North Korean setup that we're building. here in the United States,

is still visible to us before it's all. airborne and there's literally nothing. you can do about it. You might not even. know it's there at that point. There'll be no way to identify. There'll. be no defluct for drones because they're. mobile. So, during this moment when we can talk. about it, it seems like maybe it's worth. talking about it. >> We're not big on debt, but there are. times when you have to take a loan. Can't put it on your credit card and pay. 30% interest. You got to go to a bank, but going to a big bank. is a very unpleasant experience. That's.

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about this, knows a lot about it, knows. a lot of the details about where the. data from these cameras uh. are going, which is worth knowing. And he joins us. Now, Ben, are you. there? >> Yeah, I'm here. How are you? >> I'm great. Thank you for the work that. you've done on this. So, why are you. concerned. about license plate readers, Flock. cameras? What I mean, we're told that. look, it's it's for your safety, okay? And unless you want to be a terrorist, you should probably shut up about it. And there's nothing to be worried about.

at all if you're not doing something. wrong. So, I'm not doing anything wrong. Why. should I be worried about it? >> Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of reasons. to be worried about it. One. one pushback I always get is people. saying I have nothing to hide." And I. feel like that is one of the most. inaccurate statements ever. Well, when. somebody says that to me, I always ask. them to hand me their phone and unlock. it and let me go into the other room for. a while and just, you know, why? Do. [laughter] you have something illegal on. there? Let me look at it. Um, but yeah, anybody who's ever been stalked, who's. been falsely accused of a crime, anybody. who's ever been hacked, who's had their.

identity stolen, they all have stuff to. hide. And that it's when those terrible. things happen to you when you realize, "Oh, I actually have a lot to hide and. this is really important." Um, as far as. the first thing that I always when I. talk to like a police chief or something. like that, the first thing I always tell. them is that this is a third-party tech. startup. They're not even a public. company. It's a private company that has. venture capital investors, but one of. which who's on on the hook for Cambridge. Analytica, by the way. And they have one. job and that job is to make as much.

money as possible. So, they're going to. tell you whatever it is that you need to. hear to put as many cameras in your. community as possible. They're going to. tell you that it helps solve crime, that. it'll increase your clearance rates. And. the fact is is that they don't have any. evidence of doing any of that. >> So, the crime thing, it does seem like. it we we tried to find the numbers. Crime stats are complicated. Um, cross-referencing them with what we know. about these cameras and where they are. It didn't seem like they Well, they. certainly hadn't eliminated crime in.

like Oakland or Houston or places that. have a real problem with crime. But it. seems intuitive that like if you spy on. everyone all the time, there'll be less. crime. Like that doesn't seem like a. crazy claim. >> Yeah, well, I mean, criminology and. sociology are incredibly chaotic. We. actually, as a society, don't even know. if increasing police reduces crime. Like. that can go either way depending on what. city you're in. >> Yes. >> Um, one of my favorite studies uh was. actually on dog ownership. Like does. having a security dog um it or having a.

lot of dogs in a neighborhood reduce. crime? And it actually did and the. reason was because people walk their. dogs. And they walk around, and they get. to know their neighbors, and they might. even get to know their police more, you. know, if they have police but on foot. walking around the neighborhood, and. that makes everybody safer. Like, the. only thing that we truly know. that lowers crime is community policing. It's people trusting their police. officers and and saying, "Hey, there's a. gang member that all of a sudden bought. a gun. I think something's going to go. down. I saw this." They'll have that.

They'll have that conversation with. their police department, and then they. could actually. reduce crime, and they could prevent. victims from happening. So, it's not a. matter of getting somebody's license. plate and then arresting them down the. road. It You don't have a victim in the. first place. And I feel in most of the. communities that I've visited, and I'm. literally on the road right now visiting. communities talking to city council. members and stuff like that. Um in most. of these communities, the public feels. like the the license plate readers. specifically from Flock are betraying.

the relationship that they have with. police. They're actually violating that. social contract where people expect. privacy, and they're not being given. >> Well, I mean, if surveillance created. safety, then prisons would be very safe, but they're very dangerous. So, I guess. that's obvious, right? Now that I think. about it. >> I. One thing that I I. The thing that a lot of people also. don't think about it One of my favorite. analogies, and this is used by the ACLU. often, is if you're driving somewhere. and a cop pulls behind you at a. stoplight, you immediately change the.

way you behave. You start You know, you. might be really into a song you're. listening to. Now you're distracted by. the cop. You might be in a conversation. For some reason, the flow of that. conversation changes even if you've done. nothing wrong. We all just have that. weird feeling with this person who is. able to, I don't know, handcuff us, pull. us over, write us a ticket, shoot us, whatever they want to do. Um when that person's behind us and. surveilling us and looking in and. saying, "Oh, what's that guy up to? Is. he up to no good?" We start behaving.

differently. And so, when you put. cameras in front of playgrounds, and. there's plenty of flock cameras in front. of front of playgrounds, which is. baffling to me. Um. nobody's saying, "Hey, doesn't this. affect the way kids play?" Like, when I. learned how to do a cartwheel the first. time when I was a kid, or when I learned. how to play the guitar, I didn't have. anybody watching me. I had to be alone. to do that. I needed my privacy to be. able to find my own identity and find. what I'm so good at. Which isn't cartwheels, by the way. >> It's a really No, I think that's such a.

wise point and a deep point. Um. so, like, to what extent did communities. have a say in this? >> Barely any. Most people today up until. we started releasing big videos on this. and that started going in the news, most. people didn't even know what the cameras. were. They didn't realize that they were. storing their data every single time. they passed it for 30 days. So, every. single So, it's as if in my. neighborhood, for example, in Atlanta, it's as if I had a GPS unit on my car. I.

can't go to Chick-fil-A or a grocery. store or do anything without the police. knowing about it despite having not I'm. not suspected of committing any crime. >> [snorts]. >> So, I mean, shouldn't there be like a period where. the town, the city of Atlanta in your. case, says to the public, you know, we're. going to put North Korea-style. surveillance. posts all around the city. Like, are you. for this? Are you against it? Like, here's the trade-off that we're thinking. about. What do you think? There was no. democratic input that you're aware of.

>> No, it's very And most people I've been. out of pocket. I've been paying for. polling to find out, you know, how many. people are for this, how many people are. against this. And overwhelmingly, Americans are against it. And one thing. that I find interesting is. you're seeing a lot of people on on both. sides of the political aisle be against. it at the same time, which It's like the. only issue in America right now where. everybody's kind of getting along and. being like, "Yeah, we don't want that. We hate it." And I think that's that's.

really important because as you had just. shown. that as you had just shown that video. with the Garrett Langley interview, he's very quick to say the word antifa. He after some of my videos came out, he. emailed police chiefs around the country. his client from his personal email. address telling them that they were. under attack by lawless activists who. want to defund the police. And you know, I'm like, "I've never wanted to defund. the police." I I. you know, that's never been a stance of. mine. And just the other day he did an.

interview saying that it. people like Flock, they don't hate. Flock, they hate the Trump. administration. Like he literally said. this in an interview and he he just. seems to be trying so hard to act like. conservatives are aligned with him and. that it's the left that's against him. But I'm trying to make it very clear. that one of the reasons I'm here right. now, conservatives are not aligned with. him. Conservatives have classically. always been anti-surveillance. And. >> [clears throat]. >> pro-privacy.

>> Starting at Orwell who was famously a. socialist, sometimes identified as a. communist, but whose views are like. beloved by every conservative I know. So. it's like I don't even know what those. terms mean. If you're for America, if. you're for human dignity, if you're for. privacy, you oppose this. And that. partisan crap is not applicable on. questions like this. These are human. rights. They're not political rights. So. I have to assume that kid Garrett, whatever his name is, was. just put my. >> Hey, I think it's actually three.

12-year-olds dressed on top of one. another in an adult [laughter] human. costume. >> That's so good. That's exact That's so. exactly. >> out, Garrett. I know what's [laughter]. going on. >> That is so good. Okay, exactly. I hate to be mean to this one kid, but. it's like what's his I mean, he's. getting rich from this from tax dollars, by the way, and and then lecturing the. people who are being abused by it. There's something about that combination. that infuriated me. But he said, well, you know, there's the ACLU. Now, as. someone who grew up admiring, sincerely.

admiring the ACLU, I wish the ACLU were leading the fight. on this, but you don't work for the. ACLU, do you? Who do you work for? >> No. Um but I am I am a I've just met. with the ACLU yesterday with somebody. from the ACLU. They they're a little bit. less public on this, but they are. supporting people who are filing suits. They are They are. involved in it, but much less publicly, which is part of the reason I was having. a meeting with them is cuz they're like, "Hey, you're kind of the face of this. right now. Do you want to maybe.

We'll give you some resources to help.". And so, um yeah, the ACLU, the EFF, the. Electronic Frontier Foundation, they've. also been um they actually the person. who uh made Defloko, his name is Will, um Flock sent him a cease and desist, and they stepped in and said, "We have a. legal team. We'll check this out." And. you know, told Flock to pound sand. So, um they've been very helpful in that. regard. >> Home ownership has always been at the. center of the American dream. It is an. actual [music] asset, a place people. work their entire lives to build, a.

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or visit americanfinancing.net/tucker. >> So, where where do the images and the. sounds go? Where does the data go? >> Um so, typically what happens with your. standard Flock camera, like the black. ones that you see, they're called like. Falcons. That's the model name of them. Um they will see a license plate, they'll take a picture, and then they'll. send it to uh the Flock servers where. the police can access it. Whenever So, if the police, let's say you had a brown. car with a bumper sticker and maybe a.

broken window, the AI actually picks. that up. And so, not only your license. plate, the police can just search brown. cow car brown cow brown car broken. window, and then they'll be able to find. every single time that you've passed a. camera. But, it gets worse than that. because they they have something called. a hot list where they could put your. license plate on a hot list, and then. every single time that you pass a. license plate, the police get a. notification saying this person is here. this person's here this person's here, and they don't need a warrant to do. this, which is.

the most staggering part is it's just. this is no different than putting a GPS. on somebody's car functionally if you. have a lot of Flock cameras around, and. pinging somebody beyond one cell phone. tower. But, the Supreme Court had not. that long ago actually decided that that. was unconstitutional. So, I just don't. see how this is. >> What. What's the status of the drones? Flock. is saying publicly, you know, we're we. have a drone fleet, we're expanding our. drone fleet. Um it how big is that.

fleet? Do you know? And that does seem. to change the calculation. >> I was I had just done an interview next. to on and and on the property, but next. to the property of their secret drone. facility, which has a construction. company name on it. It doesn't have the. Flock Safety name. Um and they called the police and had me. detained. for doing an interview across the street. from it. Um they Yeah, they have a drone. facility. Their Their idea is to have. drones that are persistently in the air.

That's what some Flock employees have. told me um as of like a year ago. Uh. they do have something called emergency. responder drones. That I don't really. have a huge problem with. Like if my. house is on fire, I kind of want a drone. to fly by really fast and let let the. fire department know how many trucks to. send. But what they're doing is a lot. different than that. They want drones. that are uh persistently in the air and. then you know, when it runs out of. batteries, want to go down, want to go. back up, and they'll be able to surveil. every single person under it.

>> You're describing a war zone. I mean, there are a couple hot war zones in the. world, right? There's several and there. are permanently drones in the air. So, why would the why would our. government be using We're not enemy. combatants, we're Americans. Why would. they be treating us. like we're the enemy? >> Um. I mean, so the true I I want to joke and. say cuz it makes us safer, but um. [laughter] I think uh that the truth is. is that all up all Flock has spent.

hundreds of millions, billions of. dollars um on. their their product and marketing, but. their marketing has been towards police. And they market very They have studies. that they wrote themselves that they. point to saying, "Look how good this is. for Look how much safer this makes your. community, how much better makes your. job." They have conventions where they. invite the police officers and give them. freebies. Um and then there's also a. really large uh. revolving door effect where if you even. go down to LinkedIn, go down to like.

Flock employees, you'll find, you know, the head of communications happened to. be a police officer in Dallas um. a year before and he happened to be the. person in in the police department who. signed the surveillance contract or. recommended the surveillance contract. Same thing with city hall members, things like that. And so, you have. something that really, I mean, I call it. corruption. I don't know if it's legally. corruption, but revolving door. the a revolving door between government. and private industry, to me, sounds a. lot like corruption. So, I think that's.

why you have this massive expansion, and. that's why you have police saying, "We. need this, otherwise we can't do our. job." And city council members saying, "Okay, well, we're going to have a quick. little meeting and then vote this in. before anybody hears about it." Um, but. in the end, everything that you're. everything that you're talking about, the things that you're scared of, absolutely could happen. Like, I think. back to COVID, um, you know, just five, six years ago, imagine flock cameras uh, you leave the house to go pick up food. during quarantine or something, and. flock cameras are now, you know, you. could be arrested for violating.

quarantine or get a ticket or facial. recognition cameras or the cameras that. they have in retail stores, uh, sending. you a ticket because you didn't wear. your mask properly, cuz your nose was. sticking out the top. Like, I think that. these affect people across the board. from every political aisle, and and I. think it's it's really important that. people speak to their city council. members and their local politicians now. and let them know how you feel. And what. I'm doing, I know you talked about. people taking flock cameras down. themselves, what I'm doing is I'm trying. to take down uh, the politicians who. signed the contract.

>> Yes, good. >> to enable this. Because I I and that's. literally what I'm doing is I'm. interviewing politicians on the local. level to to find out who's running. against the person who threw their. community under the bus by signing this. contract. >> I mean, it's very easy to see how. military technology, and this is. military technology, this is weapons of. war, could be used as tools of political. repression. Let's say the war in Iran. continues. This is not a partisan point, it's just an obser- obvious observation. The war continues, the strait remains. closed, we drain the SPR, and we have an.

actual energy crisis at that point, like. an actual one. And the government says, "Well, we've. we're instituting a work-from-home. order." You know, we did that during. COVID, we're doing it now. And a lot of people, like me, would be. like, "Buzz off. I'm going where I want. to go. It's America." And then. drones are deployed to make certain that. the sheep are being herded correctly. Like, that's not a crazy scenario at. all. >> No. No. I And I mean, it's it one of the. most outrageous things that that we've.

discovered, a friend of mine, Jason. Huniar, he lives in he lives in an. Atlanta suburb, Dunwoody. He has been. just volunteering his time. He's not a. professional investigator, he's not a. journalist, he's been volunteering his. time pulling audit reports through FOIA. requests of of, you know, what what. these things have been used for, where. they're located, what they've what. they've been searching. And there's a. a place there called Marcus Jewish. Community Center. It's a private, large. community center that's kind of beloved.

by the community, and they have cameras. on the wall there that aren't Flock. cameras. They're like the standard. cameras you would have in any sort of. business. And the community center said, "Okay, well, we're a little worried that. there might be some sort of anti-Semitic. attack, so we want to share our footage. with police in case they need it, in. case there's a shooting or some. something terrible happens." And by. doing that, they shared it with Flock. So, what Jason had discovered is that. over a thousand times, Flock employees. viewed those cameras inside this private. community center, including but not.

limited to the pool, the daycare center, the children's gymnastics room. And it. nobody had been arrested, nobody had to. answer any questions about it. They. they, in fact, they actually made it. harder for Flock to collect an audit or. or to collect a record of who was. looking at the camera internally from. the company. >> Wait, just to be clear, it was Flock. employees who were not licensed law. enforcement officers. >> All grown men. Yes. Yes. All Flock. employees um um over a thousand times.

and they were all grown men. And they. were looking at these cameras at the. daycare center, the children's. gymnastics room. Like and and their. defense to this was that it was a. product demo for another client. And I'm. thinking to myself, if I had a business. and I wanted a Flock camera invited a. police department and somebody pulled up. a laptop and said, "Look how good this. works." and then it was a children's. gymnastics room, I would call the. police. Like or hit them. I'm not sure. what I would do, but that's that's an. outrageous explanation. That's that's. just delusional. >> How many Flock employees were fired.

after that? >> None. Not one. They uh they took down their LinkedIn. though and deleted their One of them was. in a band. and removed his band page on Facebook. So yeah, they they pretty much got. scrubbed from social media because you. know, I had put the I released a video. about it on Instagram and and it had. made the news a little bit and so they. immediately just scrubbed their. profiles. >> What has Congress done? >> Um so I had found some Flock law.

enforcement um Flock law enforcement. accounts on the dark web from a Russian. vendor and it didn't have multi-factor. authentication. You know, when you sign. into Netflix and then you have to like. say, "Yes, I signed in from Netflix on. my phone." or type in a code. They. didn't have that and not all Flock. cameras have that and or not all Flock. accounts have that. And I had found it. for sale on a Russian vendor and so I. actually started talking to some. senators uh representative Christian. Marty and uh Senator Wyden from Oregon. They wrote a letter to the FTC saying,

"Hey, these need to be investigated. immediately. There's a massive national. security risk here." and the FTC I I. assume printed it out and threw it in. the garbage. I'm not sure what they did, but they certainly didn't open an. investigation. And this was. uh almost a year ago. >> Well, there's never been a better time. to sign up for Dutch Pat. That's because. we have news in the world of dogs which. we follow closely. >> [music]. >> The return of new world screw worm has. shelters debating whether they should. euthanize kill thousands of cats and. dogs. The new world screw worm is a. parasitic fly that feeds on warm-blooded.

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what Flock, or and Flock is not, of. course, the only surveillance company. out there, there are a lot. But are. there laws governing what they can do. with the data? Would your data, pictures. of you and your family? >> And there's. in Illinois, maybe in California, there's some states that that are. starting to try and mimic data privacy. laws that they have in like the EU or. any other country really, like they have. data privacy laws that are superior to. ours right now. And the problem is is.

that if it's only in one state, then. they could just send it to a server in. another state and then, you know, sell. the data elsewhere. Um Flock claims to. not sell your data, but I've literally. seen PDF price sheets with an amount on. how much they sell data for. So, make. sense of that. >> Oh, so you think they're lying about not. selling data? >> It's almost as if they have a financial. interest in lying to to the public to. get their company to IPO as quickly as.

possible. >> Oh, cynical, cynical. I don't think. t-shirt guy would do that. Um, and last and most obvious question, why. are you doing this? Why are you devoting. so much time to this? >> I'm going to be honest with you, I hate. it. I'm so tired of Flock. I'm so tired. of it all. But, it's been the last year, I mean, we've discovered massive security. vulnerabilities and we've reported on. them. But, the reason I'm doing it is. because it's making a difference. You're. seeing communities across the country. and some big cities canceling their.

Flock contract or refusing to renew. them. And I I think that. everybody needs to to be concerned about. this. And I I feel like there's very few. people in America who want to be tracked. everywhere they go. And now is the time. when when you need to let your your. local. city council, mayor, county, whatever it. is, senate, if senators, governors, you. need to make a big stink about it and. let them know that they're not going to. be running for office anymore if they. continue to allow this to happen. >> You actually are making a difference.

That's the amazing thing. You know, everyone wants to make a difference. I I. think you're actually succeeding. So, thank you. Thank you for taking the time. to do. >> to imagine that is a possible thing. >> It's so great. It's so affirming. Thank. you very much for doing this. >> Thank you. Have a wonderful day. >> Thank you. So, as you hear stories like that, you. got to wonder like who would participate. in this? A lot of good people are cops, for sure. Many more than they tell you. On the other hand, police departments. across the country are participating in. the dehumanizing of entire populations. by stealing their privacy. Can't go.

anywhere without being watched. So, you're not actually a citizen anymore. You are to some real extent enslaved by. the government. So, most people involved. in this process, gathering the. information, enforcing laws, probably. don't think about it too much, but some. of them aren't stupid and probably. reflective and they probably have. thought of it and yet they still work. there. And what's that? So, it's. interesting that there have been people. who refused to participate in them. And. one of them is a former police officer. from Rhode Island, a decorated police.

officer called Noel Pichardo, who said, "Well, I'm actually not going. to do this because it's wrong." And you. hear that so seldom anywhere for any. reason, people voluntarily giving up a. good job cuz they think it's immoral, that we thought it'd be worth talking to. him and he joins us now. Noel, thanks. very much for doing this. >> Hey, it's all good. How you doing? Thanks for having me. >> So, can you just tell us your story? So, you're a you're a cop in Rhode Island, correct? >> Uh no, I was. I I resigned. >> Yeah, you I'm sorry, figure of speech. You you were at one point a police.

officer in Rhode Island. And [clears throat] you no longer are. So, what happened and why? >> So, back in 2021, my department was the. Pawtucket Police Department over here. and a lot of other police departments. across the state, they started doing. these trial periods with Flock. So, they. were introducing to our police chiefs, our city councils, and say, "Hey, we. have this new technology. It's going to. help you solve crimes, catch criminals.". And I was trained on it along with my. other co-workers. And even the captain at the time who was.

tasked with training us, he was already. very uncomfortable with it. He said, "Look, I was tasked with training you. guys on how to use this, but I don't. know. This. seems a little sketchy, but this is how. it works. This is how you get it on your. computer. This is how the system works. This is how you find a. vehicle on hot list." And there you go. So, when we first were introduced to. training, I was already uncomfortable. with it. And then when I finally had it. in my vehicle and I saw how it worked. and how it basically tracked vehicles in. real-time, I knew that it was a complete mistake. I. believed at the time and I still believe. now that it's a Fourth Amendment.

violation, including the ACLU and the Institute for. Justice who agree on that. And thankfully, my city was too poor to. afford it at the time, so they shut it. down. So, the when I got in involved and. I got in trouble was back in 2023, I'm. driving in my district and I see them up. in my community. And I'm a patrolman and. I wasn't notified that we were getting. these cameras. So, I was like, if if I'm a police officer. and it's my business to know when things. like these are introduced in my. department, the public doesn't know. And.

that was the case. The public wasn't The. public wasn't notified. Um the other. cities in Rhode Island were not notified. like Ben was saying to most cities. across the country, they were not. notified. It was just something that. Flock had a conversation with the with. the city council and the police chief. and they were put up without notifying. the public. And so, you know, after a couple months of having a hard. time looking my wife in the eye, I uh. spoke with a local reporter. I spoke. with the Valley Breeze and I told him, "This is what's going on. This was put.

up without the public's knowledge. It. needs to be addressed." He asked if he. could use my name. Um and because I'm a I'm an idealist and. a bit romantic and a bit stupid, I. guess, I told him to give him my name. because I knew people hopefully would. pay attention if they knew a police. officer felt this strongly about what. was happening. And so, once he uh did. the article back in October 2023, I got. in a lot of trouble. Um I spoke with a lot of my local. representatives to try to let them know. that I got me in trouble. Uh one of our representatives, a really. good guy, his name is Joe Solomon, he.

invited to speak with the at the. government oversight committee in in. April 2024. That got me in trouble. So, because I was doing all this, I got. suspended a total of four times. Uh 72. days without pay, so I lost about. $20,000 worth of pay because of all. those suspensions. I was supposed to get. promoted to detective. I got that denied. twice. I was banned from taking the. sergeant's exam. Um every time I was. suspended, they would do things like. have me hand in all my gear and all my. equipment, which is not a thing that we. do anymore. That's kind of an old. custom. Don't The only time they they a.

police officer when he's suspended a in. their gear is when they're arrested for. a crime. And I wasn't in charge with any. crime. I was just uh being um. suspended for Well, they they will they. will lie and says, "No, we're actually. suspending you because you missed a. municipal court date." Or we're. suspending you because you know, you. didn't take this report on a road rage. incident. We don't take road rage. incident reports in Pawtucket. That's a. lie. So, they would say that's why they. suspended me, but everyone in my. department, all my co-workers knew that. they were suspending me because of my. opinion. And because I was trying to. address the problem as best as I can.

So, um. uh eventually what happened was in July. of 2025, so last year, they wanted to. terminate me. And. it was based One of them was literally. based on a lie, one of the reasons why. they wanted to terminate me. Um so, I wanted to challenge it in Leo. board, which is like our version of a. trial when you go to Leo board and say, "No, this is wrong. I'm fighting for my. job.". It was going to cost me $30,000. My. union was only going to pay 10. So, I I. needed to come up with 20 grand to. defend myself. I couldn't afford that. So, I I had to resign. It wasn't my.

choice. I couldn't afford it. And so, since my resignation, you know, I decided, you know what? I I gave it my. best shot. I tried to address this. problem best I can. Maybe I'm not. articulate. Maybe I'm not. diplomatic enough. I don't know. May-. maybe someone like Ben should be dealing. with this instead of me. Um so, I decided to let it go. I says, "You know what? I'm going to let it go. I'm going to try to get hired somewhere. else. Maybe I can get a job working. campus security somewhere." I couldn't. even get that because they wanted me to. sign And it was probably because they. wanted me to sign an NDA before I left,

which I I wasn't even know that thing. you can do with police departments. But they wanted me to sign an NDA and I. refused. And the the the deal was, "If. you sign this NDA, um that bars you from saying anything. about your experience here. Uh but in return, we'll keep you on our. health insurance. You'll You'll stay on. the health the city health insurance. until you find another job. And the. chief will promise not to say anything. about you when you're looking for. another job." I thought What that. I was. like, "Hm, it's not a bad deal." But I. decided not to do that. I didn't sign. the NDA. Um that's probably And that's why I.

haven't been able to find a job um in my. field. And definitely now that I'm doing. this interview, I won't be able to find. a job in the entire country. Um. >> That's even but even no offense I mean I. used to live in Rhode Island so I can. say this even by Rhode Island standards. that is very corrupt. I mean you just. described corruption. That's ridiculous. and your behavior was in my view heroic. So thank you. Eating right's pretty. important but it's hard if you live. here. About half of the American diet is. ultra-processed foods and that hurts.

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dosedaily.co/tucker. Code Tucker. 35% off. You're going to. love it. >> But I appreciate it. >> I've got a lot of questions but the main. one is why was the Pawtucket which used. to be a pretty tough town as I remember. it. uh we're. >> a tough town. Yeah. >> Yeah, it's a tough town. Big project. there and tough. Uh why were they so wedded to these. cameras? Why was it so important for. them to have these cameras? >> I had I I actually don't know. I I asked.

to speak with my chief. Um, cuz you. know, she you know, she dehumanized me. So, I. was like, you know what? Maybe if she. speaks to me cuz I The only time I had a. conversation with my chief is when I got. hired 8 years ago. I had I never spoken. to her since I got hired. So, she's putting all these punishments. on me and like, you know what? Maybe. maybe I could have gone about this in a. better way. Maybe um, you know, maybe if I had a conversation. with her first before I spoke with the. reporter, before I spoke to government. oversight committee, maybe it would have.

made this, you know, it would have made this back and forth a. little more cordial. So, I asked to. speak with her and she refused to speak. with me. Or they told me that to not even bother. So, I don't even know if they asked or. not. But, so I don't know. I mean, I I. asked some of the city council members. in Pawtucket. I I was like, look, don't. you think it's a bit of a problem that. the public hasn't been notified about. this? Like, that doesn't concern you? And you know, their response was the. same response that Jordan was saying. It. was like, well, it's for their safety. So, what's what's the problem?

So, I I I don't know. I I don't. You know, look, and you know, that we're. dealing with a battle of extremes in our. country right now. It's like you. mentioned in your monologue, you know, there was the fund police thing going on. 3 years ago and now there's this another. extreme of mass surveillance. So, which. one is it? And I And I think that's. where we're in. We're in a battle of. extremes. You know, as they say, hurt. people hurt people. You know, you know, we put body cams on our. officers and when I had a body And look, wh- whatever you think about body cams, it is a bit dehumanizing to have a video.

camera put on your chest. >> say, go do your job. It's a bit. dehumanizing. >> So, it's not surprising to me that now. when the police or the city now have the. opportunity to return the favor to the. public that they're not [laughter] going. to think much about it. Yeah, like you. put body cams on us. >> point. >> Yeah, you put body cams on us because. we're a scumbag cuz of some guy did. something in Minnesota. Well, now it's. your turn. So, I think there's a. Freudian Freudian thing going on there. where you do it to us, now we do it to. you. So, you know, and to defend my co-work my my.

old co-workers, you know, it's a mix. Some of them think this is. wrong, this is immoral. Some of them. think it's a good idea, and some of them. just don't care. They just want to. finish their job and go home and get. their pension, like, you know, without. getting shot. So, it it's not a it's not. a monolith, you know. You know, I want if there if there's one. thing I can add to this that's useful. other than trying to warn people as best. I can is not people to be too angry with. their local police officers, like, they're going to be bombarded with. things all the time, you know, some of. them are in union fights right now where.

some of their health insurances are. being threatened. So, I don't think it's. crazy. I don't think every police. officer who feels the way I should have. the way I feel should be as idealistic. as me. Maybe they should, I don't know. I don't I mean, if if people want to be. courageous, they instead of expecting it. from others, they should just do it. themselves. >> Yeah. >> But, it's only a small percentage of the. of people are willing to do that, I've. noticed. Like, a tiny percentage. So, did it make Pawtucket as safe as Little. Compton, for example? >> Oh, you've been to Little Compton.

You've been around Tucker, huh? >> Oh, yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, it yeah, I. know Rhode Island very well. But, no, but I what I'm saying is Pawtucket, as. you just said, is like a kind of famous. is nice town, but there's some. definitely very rough parts of it. Are. they now totally safe with these. cameras? >> Oh, no, nothing changed. Um, nothing. [laughter] changed. >> Really? >> Yeah, because No, well, yeah, the thing. is, too, um, you know, it's like Ben you and Ben were. talking about, if you treat people like. prisoners, they act like that. >> Right.

>> You know, if if people is like you said, a prisoner should be ideally safer cuz. of all the surveillance, but it's not. It's the most dangerous place in the. world. >> Yes. >> So, and criminals, too, criminals, no. matter what you do, no matter what you. input, they're going to they're going to. break the law. You know, they're going to try to find a. way around it. Like. things like this, they only hurt the. law-abiding citizen. You know, criminals. will find out a way to try to get around. it. You know, instead of driving one car. through all these cameras, you know, maybe we're going to do stop points and. switch cars. Like sophist- halfway. sophisticated criminals are going to.

figure out a way to try to get around. this. You know, but the dumb criminal and the. law-abiding citizens are not. You know, they you know, they're going to be. tracked everywhere that they they go. And this what it is, it's kind of a geo. fence for vehicles. It tracks vehicles. everywhere that they go. And I've heard. some really juvenile arguments where. they say, "Well, we're not tracking. people, we're just tracking cars." And. I'm trying to figure out how that's any. different. Sounds the same to me. Especially in a. place like, you know, Rhode Island or. Minnesota where every- everywhere except. New York, every state doesn't really. have a proper subway system. So, if you.

need to get around in every state in. America, you need a motor vehicle. You. need a car in order to get around. >> Yes. >> So, if you're tracking people's cars, you're tracking people. You know, so. that's a really stupid argument that was. that was trying to be argued that. And. like I said, I don't know how that's any. better. We're not tracking people, we're. tracking cars. Like, okay. >> Well, especially if they haven't done. anything wrong. So, it's sweeping up. everybody into this dragnet. Seems like. by definition. unconstitutional. Um. >> Mhm. >> I mean, I don't want to I'm not alleging. any specific crime cuz I have no.

knowledge of a specific crime, but given. everything you've said, is it possible. that members of the city council or law. enforcement officials are making money. on this? >> Yeah, I don't know. I mean the reaction. to me made me very suspicious of what. cuz this the smart the yeah, it was very. suspicious because. I was the only officer in my state and. at the country at the time that was. woke, you know, publicly giving my. objections. So, the smart thing to do.

would just be ignoring me and say, you. know, he's just some crazy guy in the. wilderness eating locusts and honey. [laughter] or something. >> Exactly. Yeah, like they beheaded John the. Baptist. >> [laughter]. >> Didn't work for him. >> Yeah, so I I thought you know cuz you. know the chief she's pretty smart. I. thought what she was going to do was to. ignore me. >> Yes. >> I thought that's what she was going to. do. I thought she was going to punish me. once, suspend me once, you know, and I take. that hit and I just move on with my. life, you know, I tried, you know. But, when I was getting it was it was in.

the 2-year period I was getting. suspended suspended and it within 2. years. It was in the 2-year period I was. dealing with all that. I did get. suspicious of what's happening behind. the scenes that I may not I may or may. not know or why they're trying so hard. to get rid of me. You know, I I just thought maybe it was. just a tribal impulse that was kicking. in, you know. But, you know, now that Ben is sharing. what Ben is sharing is the first time. I'm hearing it that there's some. backdoor deals that look like that. happened. >> [snorts]. >> Maybe, I don't know. I mean, it is Rhode.

Island, so who knows. >> What was the reaction from your wife and. your family, people you know, your. neighbors? Were they on your side? >> So, my wife was on my side. >> Good. >> Um. my wife was on my side. She supported me. from the beginning. She was worried. I. mean, this was a sad thing. Everyone. when I was telling my family and all my. friends and in my co-workers who. really care about me and I and I still. care about them very much. They all told. me. They all read the same script. They. pulled me aside and they said, "Well, if. you if you go this route.

and you talk about this, they're going. to make they're going to make sure that. you lose your job and they're probably. going to make sure that you don't work. again." They all told me this. My family. told me this. My co-workers told me. this. They all said the same script. So, it. was really sad that as Americans we've. accepted this idea that if you speak up, you're just going to get hammered. >> Exactly. >> Like that was that was really sad that. everyone just accepted that. But, so no one. um really spoke against what I was. doing. They they were their argument. was,

"What you're doing is noble, but you. know, leave that for some other idiot to. do. You know, you have two kids, you. have a wife, you have bills to pay. Let. somebody else put their neck on the. line. Like that was the advice that. everyone was trying to give me. And I. thought about it and um. Like I said, I I you know, after a. couple months you know, I I. had had trouble sleeping. You know, my first son was born right. before I spoke up. And then when you. become a father, I'm sure you understand. this Tucker like you you like, "Oh man, like I'm responsible for who this person.

becomes.". >> That's right. >> So, you know, one day I'm going to have. to have a conversation with my sons. about integrity. And when I have that. conversation with them, I want to be. able to look them in the eye when I have. that conversation. So, I knew if I. ignored I knew if I ignored this problem. and I pretended that it didn't exist, you know, I wouldn't be able to do that. So, I. thought it was worth the risk. I paid. the price for it, but you know, I'm. doing all right. So, >> Oh, you made me emotional saying that. Well, I for whatever it's worth, nothing. really, but I just want to say it. I. hope you are richly rewarded for your.

courage and decency. Uh I think you did. that for everybody in this country and. I'm just I'm really grateful you did it. And and last thing, you were very. articulate. So, that was not your. problem. >> [laughter]. >> You know what it is? It's my It's It's. my Rhode Island accent. It's disgusting. >> [laughter]. >> If anybody who's never been to Rhode. Island, don't worry. We don't all talk. like this. Just blue collar Just blue. collar Latinos, black guys, and Italians. are the only ones who talk like this. >> It's the best. I miss it. Noel, thank. you for taking the time. It's great to.

talk to you. >> Appreciate it. Thank you, Tucker. >> Thank you. And thank you for for watching tonight. We'll see you next Wednesday.