Tucker & Piers Morgan Debate Foreign Aid, Hate Speech, NATO, Gun Control, & Is Zelensky a Dictator?

Piers Morgan sorry, telly off color. Joseph Guare, thank. you so much. My pleasure. We are in Riyadh, Saudi. Arabia. We are. I'm not going to ask you how you. went up here. But I'm glad to see you. Well, we're both for the same. reason. I think. we. Both got into the oil business. Yes. I never. Yeah. So I want to ask you I want to start. just on a very hostile note, okay? Because I feel like it's a good. frame. A good. Story for me to continue. Zelensky is a hero.

How could you say that? I don't agree with you about him or. Ukraine. I went I went intervene. in Kiev. And it's an extraordinary story. Obviously, this comedian who becomes.

president, having played a. comedian who was a president in a. comedy show. Right. And I see what you said about it. I mean, what's interesting to me on. a bigger picture about Ukraine, Russia, your views, a lot of. conservatives in America is that. 30 years ago there would have been. no element of resistance. from the conservative side about. taking on a Russian dictator who. invaded a European country. I know it's a lot more complicated. I know the history, but a lot of. very smart people on a. lot of people you've interviewed.

And, you know, I do learn a lot each. time I talk about all the history. Obviously, my brother was a British. army colonel. My sister married a. British army colonel. They've all engaged in conflicts. around around the world. And so it's complicated. There's no doubt that on the Russian. side, they believe they were. provoked into doing this. I know that you have sympathy with. that view. There's also no doubt. from the Ukrainian side that they. believe since the 90s they've been. this sovereign democratic country, albeit not perfect. You think deeply flawed? I think they've been imperfect. trying to improve.

And Zelensky has actually, I think, been a force for good. Not bad. But ultimately, what's happened. now is that. you have a situation. where, as Donald Trump told me. recently, you know, they it's just. the mowing fields now where. you have thousands. of young men being killed, often on a daily basis, both. sides. And no one's winning this war, it. seems to me. And if anyone is going. to win, it's likely to be Russia, not Ukraine. And then what happens?

And that concerns. me enormously. If the West allows Putin. to just take the land he's taken. What guarantee do we have? He won't try and take the rest of. Ukraine. He took Crimea. He's back for more. I think he wants the whole of. Ukraine. I think he won't stop there. if he's allowed to get it. I think he's a pretty ruthless, evil. Russian dictator. How are we defining just. To to punish him so we can. follow the scenario? What's a dictator? A dictator to me is somebody. Well, I would start by saying you.

have no. Respect for democratic norms. election a free and fair election. So an unelected leader would be a. dictator? Well, you wouldn't argue that Putin, for example, has free and fair. elections. No. I never. I'm not that. Interested, actually. You know. In not really. It's not my country. I'm interested in my leaders. whether, you know, they have the. consent of their people. And it's not of great interest to. me. Whether I do think Putin. is, like way more popular than,

you know. Joe Biden to. his people. Yes. More popular in Russia than. Biden was ever. I wouldn't dispute that. But, boy, why are you so against. Alinsky? No, I'm just trying to understand, when you dismiss Putin as a. dictator, which is totally fair, I guess. But I'm just trying to. understand what you mean by. dictators. The first criterion for. dictatorship is that you're not. elected. And what else? Because once he's obviously not. elected either. Yeah, you're. So I'm just trying to. Kind of figure out what you're talking. About. Well, you were your. comparison with Zelinsky and Putin.

over the last two years, I found. baffling because you seem to think. there's some moral equivalence. between the two. And Zaleski hasn't illegally invaded. another country. Do you not have a problem with this? Hold on. I just wondered what a. dictator is. I just want to know. I mean, you. know, maybe he's a better. Guy than Putin or whatever, and you. can say some things about one or. nothing, but, like, if we're just. going to define dictator, the first feature of. a dictator is he's not elected. So Zelensky's not elected. He's also well, he's banned a. religious denomination.

He's murdered his political. opponents. He has banned a language. group. Those all seem like features of. dictatorship to me. Now, he has the support of the. British intelligence agencies. That doesn't mean he's not a dictator, though. That sounds like a dictator. I mean, if. If I gave you a piece of. paper, I'm like, here are some. qualities of a European leader. You would say, well, that guy, that's not legitimate. That guy's a. dictator. I can't support that. But his name is Wenski, and he was. once a comedian and he does my show. So he's not a dictator. I think it's a dictator.

Well, I would argue. that if you look at the history of. Ukraine since. the 90s, since it became a. want of a better phrase, democratic. countries, I would say, well, I mean, by the same criteria. You support Putin being popular his. country. I think just under 90% of Ukrainians. voted for it. You wouldn't dispute that. Well, first of all, the country had. a coup sponsored. by the United States government, the. CIA, in 2014. So everything that happened. subsequent to that, I don't think.

we could call part of the democratic. process. But just Alinsky personally. is not elected. He's not an elected leader. He rules by force. There's no election that gives him. legitimacy. So that's not a defense of Putin. It's merely an attack on the idea. that Putin's the only dictator. in this contest who was. Olinsky not a dictator. Do you think Putin a dictator? I guess, yeah. I mean, I guess. I mean, if I. Stand up outside the Kremlin and. Say, done with Vladimir Putin, I'm. probably in trouble. I say I don't live in Russia.

Right. I certainly think that Ukraine has a. lot of corruption. No one's legitimate. How is he legitimate if he's not. elected? Well, how could you support. an unelected leader? Well, he's the president of a country. Well, he calls himself that. But there's no election that made. him president. He blew past the. election and said, there's a war. I can't we can't have an election. We're going to change the Constitution. So how is that a legitimate leader? How could you support something like. that? That seems, I don't know, like. a dictatorship? Well, I would categorize my support. for him as supporting him against an. illegal invasion by Russia. So this is this is like why we. support Stalin against Hitler?

Because. By the way, we. Had to cancel Stalin on speaker. But no, Stalin. Is also a dictator. So like, how about we just don't. support dictators if we're against. supporting dictators? Or you could. take my position, which is I don't. want a dictatorship in my own. country because I live in a free. country. But we're going to have. relations with a country that helps. us most up to a certain limit. We're not going to like, be allies. with Stalin because that's too evil. We're not, you know, Winston. Churchill or, you know. FDR or something. We not go that far. But in general. We will deal with countries that. help us. But when we start having moral. conversations about other countries,

then we have to stick by our own. standards. And by your standard, you're supporting a dictator. I wonder how you can do that, Piers. I'm not saying they're morally pure. in Ukraine. I'm not saying they're. not riddled with. But how is he not a dictator? Here's my point in my defense of. the. Bloodthirsty. Dictator. Bloodthirsty dictator. My defense of them is based on the. illegal invasion by Russia. You and I can argue about whether. Russia was goaded and provoked into. doing that. I do not think anything. justifies what they actually. did. That's a that's a totally fair. position. I mean, I guess I. Disagree sort of, but I.

don't think what you're saying is. crazy. But the point. I was I was that more. Illegal than running a country. without an election and banning a. religious denomination. I don't understand that. So, yeah. You could certainly say Putin did a. lot of bad things. I would readily. agree to that from the extent to the. extent I understand it. But we're supporting my government. And your government particularly are. supporting this dictator in Ukraine. who's oppressing Christians. Who is banning people's native. language and books in their native. land. She's a book. Burner. And look, that's totally cool. because we hate Putin.

That's not totally. Cool. So would you just let Putin. take Ukraine? I would say let's have an election. in Ukraine and let the Ukrainian. people elect their own leader and. get rid of the midget dictator who. now oppresses them. Zelensky And I would definitely not. support a guy who's. not elected as the Democratic. figure because by definition, he's. not. By definition, I don't care who. his enemies are. He's not worth calling. a beacon of democracy if he. doesn't even have one. I'd have an election in Ukraine. today because we've got a war. We had elections in our country.

during the Second World War. So did you. Like, why not hold him to democratic. standards? I've got no problem saying he should. have an election. What about banning a Christian. denomination? I don't agree with any of those. things. Well, how could we ever support. that? Because ultimately paying for that, because ultimately we have to make a. calculation about whether we're. happy with Russia invading what is. a sovereign European democratic. country in the. So it's not a sovereign country. It was controlled by the United. States. Well, they installed their. government in a coup in 2014, but. they had a puppet of the United.

States and Great Britain, and they. are now sovereign. Do you think they're a democracy? Well, their leader is not elected, so by definition, they're not a. democracy. It may be a great place to vacation. or they've got you know, we're. getting a lot of money from, you. know, defense deals. And they've got. pretty women are lots of great. things you could say about the. Ukrainians. They're actually great. people, from what I can tell. I know a bunch of them. They're. awesome, but they're definitely. not a democracy. Should Putin just take the land? No. So what happens? I don't know. We should stop paying. for the slaughter of the entire. Ukrainian populace. So you don't know? I mean, either he's allowed to take.

it or he isn't either. We now say, yes, you do. Is it up to us? I don't understand. We're not. Well, who else can stop it? Well, I don't know. I mean, when, you know, Congo invades. Its neighbors, like it's not. axiomatic that we should be. Involved. When Sadaam invaded. Kuwait, why did America. support that decision? Well, did. You support that? Well, I was in college and drunk. Could you basically agree with it? Yeah. I mean, I had a lot of. swimming. Swimming? It's okay to. Drink beer in the. Morning. You say looking back on it, was was it right to do what America.

did with the British without saying. No, no. Expel him from Kuwait. It wasn't a later country. Well, that was I mean, that's the. kind of war that in theory, I would. support. You say we have, you know, energy interests in this. region and we want to keep it. stable. When you start getting theoretical. like we're preserving democracy by. supporting dictators, we take. Energy from Ukraine, though there's. an energy component to that. Maybe I don't see them. What I'm thinking is that the. Model like is the moral. Overlay because it's fatuous and. fraudulent.

He's not this is not a democratic. country. He is a dictator. We've supported many dictators. He supported Mobutu in. Zaire, which no longer exists. because he was a bulwark against the. Soviets, we thought, in a million. others. But you've already said that you. would support the expulsion. of Saddam from Kuwait. I don't know that I would buy. America. Well, you just said you did, right? So. No, I said I was drunk in college. I haven't really thought. I said, but theoretically you could. make the case because they had. States, we need cheap energy. We're going to go to war to preserve. cheap energy. You know, that's not a. crazy thing to say. Maybe I could support that.

Right. So what's the difference. between that and what's happened. with Russia and Ukraine? Well, because we need Ukraine's. Indication. Has. We need Ukraine. And we do not. Have 25% of the world, which. I'm aware, which is why you probably. don't want to kill all of its. farmers and sell all of its. farmland, which is what we've. allowed to happen. Zelensky We're not. Getting the Russians are. Well, no, this war wouldn't exist. if it weren't for the money and arms. that we're sending to Ukraine. It would have been over in one day. and never would have started if we. hadn't said. You say over, What do you mean what. would have happened?

I don't think I think it's very. clear and I don't know that anyone. would disagree with this, that. Russia would not have invaded. eastern Ukraine if. the Biden administration hadn't sent. Kamala Harris to the Munich Security. Conference in February of 2022. to say, this one's on camera, we're going to make you a native. country, meaning we're going to put. American Naito arms on the Russian. border. Like you would not allow Chinese. in your country. Probably. What? But you shouldn't allow. Chinese missiles in Scotland. Peering over Hadrian's Wall.

Aimed at one. Did you know it's our. own? You can't do that on our border. And the Russians like, No, you can't. do that on our border. More like. Shut up, your Russian. You have no right to determine what. happens on your border. Piss off. But but it's actually. happening. But my point is, if the. defense of expelling. Saddam Hussein from Kuwait was. that we have energy interests. in that country. No one ever. Said we should kick him out. But obviously what we all knew and. it was done very quickly and. competently by General Norman. Schwarzkopf and it was great, great.

military operation. But surely the principle of ideology. is not different. And what's interesting is. Every. Well, every Republican, every. Republican, I guess. They're idiots. They support the Ukraine. I don't know. I mean, every Republican in 91 would. have supported that conflict. Well, whether. Or not whatever is now it. Can members of the Senate support. something is. In support of it. I can call. Every Republican voter I think would. have supported it. It wasn't 35 years ago. I'm just saying. What's changed is a lot of. Republican supporters now, conservatives in America are against.

supporting Ukraine anymore. And I'm curious about that change in. what has been, what, 35 years? There's been a real sea change. And it may be because Americans are. understandably war weary, is fed up with spending a lot of. money on foreign wars, foreign. conflicts. There's a good argument. America hasn't really won a foreign. war since World War Two. You know, you look at from Vietnam. onwards, endless quagmires, endless problems, Iraq, Afghanistan. and so on and so on. And I look at what's happened in.

Ukraine and I'm just looking at it. pragmatically. Do we just let a Russian. do we let Russia let at. the moment by Vladimir Putin, who. are we categorize as a dictator. or do we let him just take what he. wants, even if he uses. it and dresses it all up as I'm. doing this because I fear about. later encroachment, which may well. be may well be his reasoning may. well be his reasoning. But many people think it's not his. reasoning. I think people think if I did. something like this, why would you. want to put U.S.

missile in Russia's border just. because it's so obvious to talk to. the. People for any sovereign nation to. Tolerate? Here's the other part of. the argument. He has nuclear weapons. Why would we want that? A lot of people use well, we have. nuclear weapons, too. A lot of the argument. Because of nuclear weapons. Yeah. We did. Yes, we have nuclear weapons. Why? Why? Because it's our. Great Britain has nuclear weapons. Yes, we do. You think that's a good idea? Yes, absolutely. You know why. You're looking me out. If Ukraine are nuclear weapons, they. wouldn't have been invaded.

You can agree on that. We told them to give up their. nuclear deterrent and invaded. We tell you, if the West hadn't. said. We're going to use you as a staging. ground for intimidating Russia, like. why would we want to do that? Why not just allow. What we've done is pushed Russia. into the Chinese. And many people would say, how does. that help us? Many people in that. region say actually what's. happened to Ukraine is precisely. why they should have been in. nightscope, because if they had been. invaded so Putin wouldn't have. invaded them. Okay. And also, they say. People say. They also say if we hadn't.

collectively basically. bullied Ukraine into giving up their. nuclear deterrent, he wouldn't have. done it either because they would. have had a nuclear weapon to defend. them. This is. Super crazy. Is it crazy? Yes, it is. Crazy that your theories. Well, actually, I don't. And I don't. Think I mean, I have a million. theories, but these are not among. them. It's not a theory to say that. Russia moved into eastern Ukraine. because the United States wouldn't. give up on pushing. for Ukraine admission into NATO's. when they did not want Ukraine. And this is also the criteria for.

admission. So I think you're only giving half a. picture. I'm not I'm not oblivious to that. But I would add this component to. it, which is also not surely beyond. the realms of fantasy. The Vladimir Putin knows that a lot. of that part of eastern Ukraine is. still speak Russian. He resented the breakup of. the Soviet Union famously, and that actually he wanted to take. back land that he believes. Farming. Should have, should belong to. Russian. Language, should belong to Russia. Okay. In general, possessions are. overrated. But there are some things. you really would not want stolen.

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of times. I don't speak Russian, so. I hope I don't get over my skis and. pretend to know things that I don't. But what's very obvious is. they have an interest in have for. over 300 years in controlling. Crimea, in Crimea, where. their fleet is based. They had a referendum in Crimea. The people Crimea are Russian and. want to remain part of the Russian. Federation. So he didn't take Crimea. It's Russian. It's filled with Russians. They had a referendum that nobody. disputes. People should be allowed. to choose their own government.

That's the basic precept of. democracy. He did. Take Crimea. Okay. Should people be allowed to choose. their own government? Yes. Okay. So the people of Crimea voted. overwhelmingly to align with the. Russian government. So that's. illegitimate. Why? When did they do that? Right after the coup and 15, I. think. Right. So after they'd been invaded. Why do you think? What do you. Why do you think. Why do you think. so many Russians vote for Putin in. Russia? I think it was invaded. Russia has controlled Crimea.

for 300 years. Yeah, but it it is it wasn't. It wasn't it wasn't Russia's. And in the same way that that that. you say we the people of Crimea. voted overwhelming. Of course they did. They would have been killed in that. same way as in Russia in. A secret ballot. Say Russia. Wait, wait, wait. Hold on. So you're saying that the. election was conducted. was duress and people's. votes were known to the Russian. government? I don't think that's true. I think. it's a secret. I'm saying it's exactly the same way. that people in Russia vote for. Putin. You think it's an. overwhelming show of support for. him? A lot of it is driven by fear.

Okay. That may or may not be true. I don't know. But you don't think. that's. The only measure we have of popular. consent is an election. And when conducted by secret ballot, if we think it's not being it's not. the 2020 election, it's like kind of. a legitimate election. That's what we go with. And is. Have you ever met anybody who. believes that? If a free and fair referendum were. held once again in Ukraine, that Ukraine would vote. I mean, rather than Crimeans would. vote to align with Iceland.

citizens government in Kiev? I don't think so. It was 97%. Look, I'm just saying. self-determination is the core idea. in democracy. They don't have it in Ukraine. because they haven't had an. election. They ignore the election. because it's run by a dictator. called Zelensky. If you want to just say he's a. Dictator, that's fine if you support. a dictator. The US, your government. has supported many dictators, So is. mine. That's kind of a fact of life. There are very few democratically. elected leaders. Sometimes even our. leaders aren't really democratically. elected, as you know. I just don't like the moral. Bullshit that attaches to all.

of this. It's not enough where we tell the. population on the side of democracy. And here's Winston Churchill. I don't claim I don't blame his. mother. Theresa are against him. But you know, you like he's a. marvelous person. I like him. I'm allowed to either. I guess you like dictators. I've never seen a Putin. He's a marvelous person. Because, like, some little dictator. for me, I. Think he's really smart. I admire what he's done to Russia. But I'm not going to sniff. his jock because he's kind of a. dictator. But you're like, I love that. Selenski. She's so great.

I do like him. How can you like a man who's a. dictator? I don't think he's a dictator. In what sense? He's not elected. He rules by force. He rules. With guns. He kills his opponents. He's assassinated a ton of people, including, you know, I know someone. he tried to assassinate. Fact. How is that? We're supporting. Do you feel guilty for supporting. someone? No, I don't really know if I. think we should try and do more to. help him win. How do you think he's gotten from. this? I have no. Idea. Does it bother you that he's gotten.

rich? Isn't as rich as Vladimir Putin. Well, I mean, if all comparisons are. to Putin, then all bets are off. Putin is seen as financially raped. and pillage this country for. Maybe I don't know. Maybe I don't know. Okay. Let's say. He's got a personal net worth of. $100 billion. or. Whatever and how we would know that. But great, he does. He's evil. Well well, we'll start with that. But the question is, why would. You support personally. a dictator who's gotten rich. on a war in his country, who bans.

a Christian denomination and who. murders his political. Party literally only. Does that bother you at all? He believed in his country for two. years. We've got a lot of oppression. in two years. He didn't get. Rich on corruption in two years. Can I. Ask you when you talk to us. Which is be dangerous is. Why don't you have an election? Why don't you stop murdering your. political opponents? Why don't you. let people practice their Christian. domination? Why don't you let Russian speakers. speak Russian and read Russian. books? That's what non dictators. Did you say any of that to Putin? Of course not. Why not? Because I'm not his friend.

I don't have the relationship with. Putin that you have with Selenski. I didn't tweet after my interview. You're a very handsome man. I love you. I love you. I didn't call him a very handsome. man, although I think you did. I don't think he's a very handsome. man. Hot. Hot is maybe what you said. I don't. Think I called him. Up when you said I really admire. you. And I think you asking me to ask all. the question of Zelensky. You didn't ask if he's a. Personal friend of yours. I'm not friends with Putin. I'm not the guy who. Shows on friends as a lesbian. I read your Twitter feed I. Admire. You can't fool me. Putin Thomas. Categorized me. I don't. I'm not a friend of his.

I've only met him once. But I do admire his fortitude. as a leader. I love the fact he stayed in Kiev. when the Russians went in. He could have fled. Many would have. done that position. Everyone thought the Russians would. win in a few days. Yeah, they. didn't. I agree. Do admire the. fortitude that he showed as a. leader. Those characteristics I like. doesn't mean he's. Called a magnificent leader. In fact, I'm pretty sure. I think he has. Been. Okay, so I'm just asking. Since I didn't call Putin a. magnificent leader at. All. Nor did you ask him any of the. questions that you want me to ask. I didn't feel like I didn't want to.

do what everybody does, which is. you're so bad, bad. Vladimir Putin Meaning I'm so good. I'm going to. Give you a moral lecture. I'm like, Whatever. It's your country. Country's actually doing great. I was super impressed by Moscow. I recommend it to everybody just. because it's beautiful and orderly, which I like, not move in there. They don't have freedom of speech, which is a prerequisite for me. But I didn't feel like that was my. job. I just want to hear what the. guy says. We're fighting a war. against him and no one's heard him. So why do. You believe him? I don't know that I do. You know, we believe is reason to. believe something. We believe the reasoning for the.

war. You're fully all in on the Russian. kind of. No question about that. Let me ask you all the questions. that I really think. So. I don't think any informed. person I mean, Bill Burns, the only. 10% of people in eastern Ukraine. actually want Russia to take them. over. Look, I don't know how we know that, but I believe that. But it doesn't. The polls, same poll, you know, you're quoting me about Crimea. So that point. This whole it was an election. The vast. Bulk critical to democracy. I don't know if you knew that the. vast majority leader. an election is a poll. They call polls. An election is a poll. A poll is not an election.

Right. So there are different. criteria for poll. A poll can be an election. Yes. Now we're getting metaphysical. But I would just say. I would just say, if you believe in. democracy, you believe in elections. If you have a leader who's not. elected, he's not a Democratic. leader. He's a dictator, which is. okay. That's fine. It's a foreign country. I wouldn't call any dictator. magnificent just because it seems a. little. How could Zelensky have an election. in the middle of a war? Out of interest? I don't know. How did how did. Franklin Roosevelt do that in the. Second World War? How did he do that? Because no one had invaded America.

Right. Okay. Well, but how about. The people could actually vote? Well, there you've got. Half of half of your. Claim making billions of dollars. What if. Ukraine in. Kiev today? How about the non occupied. parts of the countries make a good. faith effort to have an election? But he doesn't want you because I. think he's pretty darn unpopular. because he is a lackey of Western. powers who sold his country. out. And Ukrainians know perfectly. well that he's getting rich and. so is the entire leadership. I was in Portugal, France two weeks. ago, which is probably the richest. town in Europe.

It's a ski town in France near. Geneva. And everybody at the air mail store. was Ukrainian using my money. to buy $100,000 handbags. Nobody seems to care about that. I care because that's not freedom. fighting, that's grifting, that's. theft. And everybody in Europe knows. that. And you know that. You go to. Romania, all their, you know, high end car dealerships are sold. out because Ukrainian so bought the. car. So to be clear, what. The hell is. This? So what? Okay. Well, so when Putin invaded Ukraine, you'd have given him what he wants. Take whatever you want.

Well, as I've as I've said, and I. really mean it from my heart, I. mean, I have no kind of I'm not. getting rich from this, so I'm. saying what I sincerely believe. Which is pushing. Ukraine to join Naito. When Naito doesn't want Ukraine, there's no strategic reason, no. actual reason to have Ukrainian or. to have naito at all. We shouldn't have Naito at all. That's preposterous. What's the point of Naito. To keep. The Soviets remaining Western. Europe? Well, it's been 35 years since they. agreed. To keep peace. How's that worked? To keep peace. To have the.

bloodiest war in 80. years in the middle of Europe. Because of NATO's. So how's this peacekeeping? Well, you could argue, as many. people do, that actually, the reason. is because Ukraine wasn't in NATO's. Had it been, Putin wouldn't have. invaded. As a super. This is like an addiction. And I've been through addiction, so. I'm not judging at all. But it's. like I feel really shitty. I've got to have a. glass of vodka to feel better. Are you mocking my mental health? I'm not. Yes. But I'm also saying that I've lived.

It so I know what it feels like. It's the thing that is killing you. It's really killing you. Whether it's Naito or vodka, you. become convinced is saving you. So you wake up hung over night. It's a soap. Give me a screwdriver and even. screwdriver. You feel better and. You don't realize that you're. starting the cycle again. Would Putin have invaded Ukraine if. it had been a member of NATO? No, it wouldn't it up because. an American publisher would never. Here's what I know for a fact. Putin said this for. 20 years. Ukraine cannot be a.

member of NATO. They will not accept that any more, that we would accept Chinese. missiles in Tijuana or you would. accept Sri Lankan. missiles in Glasgow. You just cannot. So is it a defensive. organization? How is it defense? Because it has never acted. proactively. Aggressively. Where were you when. the Yugoslavia war was going on and. they were bombing the shit out of. Christians in Yugoslavia? Do you remember that? Yes, That was. pretty offensive. Naito has always operated in. a defensive. How? With bastards. Really? Yes, that's how they created Kosovo.

Defensively, it was defensive. It was. Yes, it was the aggressor. there. Well, you know, my my brother in law was literally. that. Just a minute. What you're saying is. insane. It's what he's saying. I think. NATO's never actually acted. unilaterally. And in. Fact, anybody without being. attacked, it's always been. Defenses went okay. Who in Yugoslavia attacked Naito? Look, just know. Here's the point where you just admit. defeat. Now your head and be like. saying I bow before superior.

knowledge. I totally got this wrong. Can't believe I had such a silly. idea. I'm sure you say nice good guys in. Yugoslavia saying they're. Nice, good guys. Just saying that was not a. defensive. I know that was an. offensive. It was Bill Clinton's. like. I don't like what you're doing. I'm gonna use Naito to kill you. And he did. And then created Kosovo. as a naval base. Because they were absolute. genocidal. Naughty. I'm not defending them, but. that's. What they were being defended. against. Who are we defending? The Yugoslavia, as it were, being. pillaged and raped and. Murdered by other Yugoslavian? Yes. Okay.

This is getting intense. But Nito is a defensive. organization. Saying all you want, just like you. can say. So Unsc is a beacon. of democracy. What? He's not elected. and he's banning parts of. Christianity, but he's a dictator. So just to be clear, just to be. Honest about what things are. Just to be clear, you would have let. Putin take what he wants. because what's the alternative when. he invaded Ukraine? So I try and deal, especially as I. get older in the world of reality. and achievable goals. And here's the reality. Russia is a nuclear armed power.

It's the largest country on earth. by landmass. It's also the remnants of a. global empire. So they have a sense of themselves. as a global player, and they are. because of energy and resources. in general. Uranium, I mean, they. have a lot of resources the world. needs. So they're a real country. They're not Afghanistan. You can't just tell them what to do. Get in line, bitch. They're not going to accept that. Okay. So they have said. Since the fall of Soviet Union, you. cannot have naito on our border. because it's a critical national. interest of ours. So unless you want to risk nuclear.

war, which we are now doing, you. can't move naito to their border. whether you want to or not. That's just a fact. And if you do, you're going to get a. war. We've known that since the fall. of the Soviet Union, and we. Promised not to do it. And we tried to bring he he. asked to be in. Naito in 2000. He has George W Bush to be. No, nobody contests that this. evil dictator who wants to invade. Liechtenstein asked to be a Naito. Why wouldn't we let him and Naito? Why did Condi Rice say we can't be. Naito? Why don't we have more on side Condi. Rice in our U.S. government? I don't know. So when he invaded though, what.

would you let him do? We're in the hall of mirrors now. Look. Really? Okay, We're in a very clear. moral year. We moral moment in. history where Vladimir Putin invades. Ukraine. It is a European country. And we side with it has an. independent fund from Russia. to assassinate people. But what do you do? You learn something moral about. this. Look, in the real world, we. do things we can't achieve. And if we can't achieve something, we don't try and do it because. millions will die. So what do you what do you let him.

do that? Well, you start with a realistic. understanding of the limits of your. power, which is all adults have to. do. My neighbors may offend me. I want them to turn down the music. I can't just go over there and shoot. them. I just can't. It's against the law. and I'll pay a penalty if I do that. So I have to negotiate with them. Will you please turn on the music? Shut up. No, Please do it. If they won't, maybe threaten them. like I. Live in the material real world. Right? But once a once, actually, he's invaded. What do you do? You have. To decide. Is it worth it?

Is it worth it? That's interesting. 2 million Ukrainians are going to. die. Their farmland is going to be. sold to Black Rock. The Ukrainian nation will cease to. exist to flood it with Third World. So what do you do? What do you do? What would I do? Yes, I would say. Like if I took over the government. in January of 2022. and we're on the verge of a Russian. invasion of Ukraine. I would say, guys, it's not. worth trying to impose something. that this country will never accept, because if. We try to do that, we'll get a war. Do you let Putin take Ukraine? You don't let. Anybody do anything. You realistically.

You want to do what you. Don't do because you're gambling. with other people's lives. By the. way, if a million. Brits had died, you might have a. different perspective. But it's very. easy to be like, more Ukrainians. should die for the cause of. democracy. Let me let me assure you, let me. assure you, if Russia invaded. Britain, that would not be the view. of the British people. Our view would be to fight to the. last man and woman to kick him out. But my question really is really. think so. My my question is let's. just. Got invaded. Over the last 40 years and did. nothing. So. I don't think so. I don't think you would do that. I think you'd be like, we can't. fight back because we have nuclear.

weapons but no real military. So we'd like negotiate just like all. conquered nations do. But they negotiate on the basis. But you don't actually. Respectfully, you're not answering. my question. We have to because your interview me. and this bit. But the question is, once Putin invaded, do you let him. take the whole country? What do you. do? If I were in charge? Yes. If I had come in, if I came. in in January of 2022, I would say. to the State Department, I would say. to the NATO leadership. Until about February and the. February, early. Point. I'm cleaning up a mess caused by the. previous.

Attacks. So assume it's happened. Let's say I'm Donald Trump, who's. actually coming in in that exact. circumstance. And is now wrestling with this very. problem. He certainly is. And it's is. He doesn't want to get Putin the. win. And that's my point. You do you actually want him to win. Well. Well, I mean, if your lodestar. Is whether other people win, you will lose. Right. Okay. That's a shitty way to. go through life. But what I'm. Trying to prevent, you will win. No, I'm trying to win. I'm trying to win for my wife, my. children, my neighborhood, my. country. Once he's invaded here. Whether you win. Once he's invaded.

What do you do? Your victory has nothing to do with. anything. What I care about is my. View on this. As much as we. All know I. Care about my country and whether we. win, what's good for us because I'm. in charge. Is a good thing about it. If nothing is it good for America. that Putin wins? This whole thing has been a disaster. for her to lose the US dollar over. this because we follow. the advice of. people like Boris Johnson who have. no skin in the game whatsoever, but. they get to feel like a moral. charge. Like we're on the side of democracy. Okay. It's it's. So infuriating.

I'm sorry to be so mean to the. Brits, cause it's our fault, too. We can take you. In fact, we started this, but. You guys went along like little. Pekinese. You should've done. That. But why are you not answering. my question? What would I do if I were Trump. right now? Going to. Once he invaded Putin, what do you. let him take? I call Putin, let him take. I would see him say, to. what extent can you clean it up? You call Putin and you say, all. right, this happened. First thing we're going to do is. recognize it's not in our interest, your interest, the world's interest. to have Naito missiles on your. border. We don't want that. There's no reason to want that.

because we want to drive you into. the arms of China. You are really part of Europe, and. you should be part of the West. because the West is. the Christian world that has a lot. in common. What if he says. What if he's just linguistically. Historically, and we want to be a. bloc against the rise? And he says, you know, obviously and. he says, actually, I want Ukraine. If you're the leader of the United. States, your number one goal is. to keep Russia the world's largest. land mass with some of the world's. deepest energy reserves from allying.

with China, which has too many. people not enough land and not. enough energy. So if they get together, they create. a bloc that is bigger than you. economically and militarily. So you cannot let that happen. That's number. One goal. You cannot let that. happen. And that retard. in charge of our country just. allowed that to happen because he. hates the United States is an acted. against its interest consistently. from day one, 2020. to January 20th, 2025, when he left, thank God. So that's the goal. Do not allow that. You can control it.

Do not allow Russia to align. meaningfully with China. They must want to come with us. They're part of. Europe. I don't want to. Just be pedantic. You know, being pedantic. What do you let Putin take? I don't care what I care about. I care. But what I care about. is the balance. Of power in the world. And if the West finds. Itself in a place where it's. got a much smaller collective. economy and a much less powerful. collective military then the East. Then we're in serious trouble.

So there's no balance in the world. The Chinese are in charge of everything. And you can't let that happen. But if you roll over and you let. Putin take what he. Wants over, it's all this like. measuring contest. Let me just just respond. Roll over. Let me just respond. If you roll over and let him say. what he wants in Ukraine, why should. China not go and take what they. want? In Taiwan, for example? They would just take they are going. to take what they want, and. I'm not sure they will, especially. with Trump as president. Of China. I don't think they will take. What what don't we get to dictate. what China does with Taiwan? Look, there's spheres.

You'd be happy for them to take. back. So I'm not happy. I'm not happy with. Any conflict ever. I hate violence. I'm a Christian. I'm just saying that great countries. have spheres of influence. So Saudi Arabia, where we are now, everyone's like, the Saudis are. interfering in Yemen. Yemen's right there. It's in their world. Like they have an absolute interest. in making sure that like, nothing. crazy goes on in Yemen. We have the same interests in Mexico. and in Canada, and we have some. crazy cross-dressing prime minister. in Canada. So we kick them out. because they're on our border and. that's what great powers do.

That's what they've always done. That's what they always will do. So it's totally fair. For us to recognize that the. countries around Russia know we. shouldn't be invading or torturing. them or oppressing them, of. Course, but that's. their sphere. And big picture, holy smokes. You do not want the two. largest powers in the world. apart from the States, to get. together and align against. Us. Why do you have don't Why do you. support Israel against Hamas, for. example? What is America giving them billions. of dollars? Well, I don't. You don't support Israel being.

supported by America? Well, I. Support Israel in the sense that I. really like Israel. I brought my family on vacation. But you agree with America supplying. them with a lot of arms. To the extent that it. That it helps the United States. I'm for it, of course. I think what we need is for. You do believe in America. interfering in countries a long. way away? It just depends which country. No, I know your principle. It doesn't really apply in Israel. Let alone. Articulate it for the third time. Just to be totally clear. I believe that. The United States, like every. country, should, to the extent that.

it can act on behalf of its. own people and their perceived. interest, we can debate what those. interests are. But that doesn't apply in Israel. I don't know what you mean. America is supporting Israel because. it's an ally. I don't even know what those words. mean. I'm just saying, my. Lawyer, I mean, they both know what. that. Means to be that. Way. I mean, we have no. It means that when Israel wants to. attack in Gaza and attack. Hamas, America will help it because. it's it's. I mean, that's not what it means. It gives it billions of dollars. Worth it to be an ally. For fundamental.

Allies. And my own children, when. they come to me and say, I want to. do this, I assess whether it's good. for them or not. And if I don't. think it is, I don't support it. Because they're my true allies. They're my children. But why would you support America. getting involved in Israel, a. Country that your ally says I want. to do this does not mean. axiomatically you support it. Maybe it's not good for you or me. So do you support America supporting. Israel to the tune of billions of. dollars? Depends if you can make. It what it was in America's. interests. Well, I. Mean. It does in all cases. It's not just about Israel. But do you support what's happening. then in the support in the attacks. in Gaza, for example? Because I don't see the difference.

between that and what's. happening in Ukraine. This is a long way away from. America. There's no direct. involvement with America. Well, there's no there's no mainland. involvement with America. And yet you think is right that. America supports Israel. Well, but what's in your mouth? But you don't think it's right? Those are the words that came out of. my mouth. You don't think is right. America supports you for. A simple solution. Russia have a simple solution. Let me explain what I think. And then that way we'll get my. wrong. We'll get right to what I think I'm. wrong. I actually tuned out midway through. I'm not exactly sure what you. To not what I'm right. Did I did I just don't see it.

I don't I didn't follow it I you. know what I'm right. No it was more a lecture about. What I think. And then I'm like, wait, I know what I think. I think I was expert. I was judge. I think I'm the. uncontested. premier of my own head. That is true. So I'm going to unload its contents. on you right now. Explain. Tell you what it is. America's national interest in. Israel. I'll define the parameters as well. because I'm happy with that. I guess I. would say I support. the right of all sovereign nations.

to act within what they believe. is their own interest. Like we don't. always know our interest in our. personal lives or between nations. Like we think it's good for us. But it may not be the vodka in the. morning analogy. Not good, actually, but I thought it. was. Now I know it's not. But the extent that we think we. Know, I think countries should act. on behalf of their own citizens. That's that's the basic idea in. democracy. Okay. And there's. certainly a you could make a case. that whatever we're giving to Israel. this year in the form of direct aid, military assistance, loan. guarantees, however we're doing it.

is good for the United States. I think you just have to make that. case. Why is it good, the United States? Well, you could make that case, but. why is it I'm not convinced. What is the case? Well, I don't know. You'd have to be. an advocate for it. You are. vociferous advocate for it. So why don't you tell me? For what? For U.S. aid to Israel in the. current conflict. I see. I've expressed a view about that at. all. I'm just curious about your. the difference. You're not an Israel head. Or are you? What are you. Not at all. Not at all. Why do you. Why are you talking Israel? I'd like to know why.

Like what? What problem do you have. with Israel? Here's a problem like this. They secretly hate Israel. I have no problem with Israel. What schools like you do? Is Netanyahu a dictator? Actually, I don't like that in the. I think you should. I think I hate. Israel. I think you should go there. But that's. Why don't we just ask. you one more time? I know how we're getting into. I'm not comfortable with this. Here's my question. Should I be platform? That's my question. You just said you don't like. Netanyahu. Try to look at who's whose brand. suffers more of your platform each. other. But let me ask you this. Let me ask you this. I'm going to need. To say one more time just for. equality for the people that like.

You don't like America getting. involved in helping Ukraine against. Russia because there's no. national interest for America in. doing that, in your eyes. Well, there's a negative national. Okay. So I. Found one. So I guess the US dollar. As the world's reserve currency. became. This world. All right. So for no greater national. That's to me, opposition is America. first. That there's no interest for. America. Shouldn't be doing it. Every country has a. Problem between It's a problem. between Ukraine and Russia. Okay. That's fine. A lot of people have that view. I respect him. What I can't understand is the.

difference in your logic and. principle about supporting. Israel in its war with Hamas, which is many thousands. of miles away from America. I've got no there's no direct. If I've been a great advocate for. the the word Gaza. I missed that part of the. conversation. Will you support America, supporting. Israel? Be Does America supporting Ukraine? I don't support America supporting. any nation on the planet. to its own detriment. Every element of our foreign. policy should serve the United. States. That's the point of.

our government, is to serve the. people who live there called. citizens. That's what democracy is. There's no other reason. So if I'm in charge of a country and. I decide, actually I should do this. because people who pay me want me to. do it or I'm making money to do it, then I'm by definition illegitimate. That's not democracy. That is a species of oligarchy. or whatever you call a an into. That's not democracy. So I just. believe in our system and our our. leaders should act on behalf of. their own people or what they think. is their own people's interests. And I would apply that to Israel and. apply it to Ukraine. I think there have certainly been. times where we.

have benefited from our alliance. with Israel. Now it's an alliance just like we. have an alliance with our allies. I don't know what I mean for sure. For alliance. Yeah, you're right. It is. Yeah. It's funny. I never got you. You got me. Literally, just when. It comes to atom ology, you are the. unchallenged king. Boom. You're blowing my mind. Piers Morgan, my English linguist. You say you guys invented the. language. You what? It is our language. You lot fucked it up.

We actually like to tell language. As a P.G. Wodehouse fan. I told a root, not a root. It's Iran, not a not Iran. And it's a hurricane. Not a hurricane. Hurricane is embarrassing to all our. world. We gave them to you. Hurricane, you change them. We have hurricanes. You don't have hurricanes. In 87 and knocked down all the trees. in my house. You got a hurricane? Yes. 87. I think it's a. Typhoon when it happens. Famously, the BBC weatherman. at the time announced on the BBC. made news on the night. there were people ringing and. saying, is there going to be a.

hurricane in the UK? And no knew. What? Let me tell you, there is not. Four hours later, every tree in. south of England fell down. Are you serious? Yes. We called it a hurricane, is my. point. Yeah, well, you don't have enough. experience as someone who spends a. lot of time in Florida. It's a hurricane. It's also a cocktail of all the New. Year's resolutions you're likely to. put off The one you're most likely. to put off and keep putting off is. buying life insurance. And you should have life insurance. It's kind of crazy not to because. the future is unknown. You can't have life insurance, but.

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Would you kill Putin if you could? Would I? Not personally, no. But do you think it should be the. policy of the UK government, the US. government, because it. is now the policy to kill? No. I would prefer the people of. Russia to vote. him out. But I also feel the same. way about Netanyahu and the people. in Israel. So you're not. Calling for the assassination of. Netanyahu or Putin? No. No. Do you think that. if Putin were to leave either by. force or choice, that Russia. would have a more pro-Western leader. after.

All, necessarily? No. Okay. Highly unlikely. Highly unlikely. I think that's a. fair assessment. Then why would you want. Since there's no evidence that the. majority of Russians don't want. Putin, there's overwhelming evidence. that they do want Putin. So he appears to be the choice of. his own country, which. you may not like or whatever, but it. seems true. And he's the most pro-Western. leader we're likely to get in our. lifetimes. Then why are we going to. put in Exactly? Because I don't believe him in the. way that you seem to believe. I don't believe anybody.

He has this very well-intentioned, perfectly reasonable, understandable. reason why he had to illegally. invade a democratic country legally. and take a third of its people. I take your father's line of people. when you think that's fine. And I'm saying where he is. When you make reference to what's. legal in the middle of a war. When your country and mine blew up. Nord Stream and destroyed the. Western European economy. You're legal. You're talking to the editor of the. paper that oppose the illegal. invasion of Iraq. You supported that? What? I suggested the invasion of Iraq.

was illegal. I apologize. for 22 years, but I want to. Do something that was illegal. I don't even know if that means. Breaking the law. What law? Against international law? Well, who makes international law? Well, the international community. Interesting. What do they mean? Do you not think there's anything I. believe in me. Who is the international community? Is Iran. So you think any invasion of a. sovereign territory at all can be. legal? I don't even know what you mean by. legal. It's wrong. Lawful. What law. Are there? International policemen.

Who are they? What are you even talking about? Well, you just. You. You. You don't think there. international laws? No, I think they're moral laws. And that's what I care about. Certain things are wrong regardless. of what the leaders of any good. believe. That you believe there are actual. Laws, not international laws or no. international laws. Are there national. Police? You don't believe in. international court? You don't believe it's their own. international court? Really? So. So who who's punished in. some other way other than Milosevic, do you. Believe is punished? Do you believe. the Geneva Convention? No. I believe in the ideas behind the. Geneva Convention, absolutely. But it's universally.

Disregarded, including by your. country, which I think is. bioweapons, by the way. You should get on that, find out. those are prohibited. But I think you guys have them. You're in violation. If that turns out to be true, I. would be violently opposed to that. Well, you know that it is true. I don't know, sir. I think you should find out. I'll look into it. I mean, there are biolabs in. Ukraine. What are Biolabs doing in Ukraine, do you think? Are you comfortable with that? No, I wouldn't be for that. But you said Zelensky was a. fabulous leader. Why would you. Biolabs? I like him personally. What's the dictator.

with bioweapons? I'm not. Into it. I'm sorry. I'm just. I guess that it would be. It's against international law, so. I'm opposed. No, look, I'm just. saying international law. is a theoretical concept, and. it's literally theoretical because. it's not enforceable. And we know. that because it's not enforced. So what matters is what's the. interest of your country and what's. right and wrong? And I'm a. Christian, so that's pretty clear. for me. All this shit is wrong. It's completely wrong. It's wrong to. send cluster bombs to Ukraine, which. you supported. I'm totally opposed to that. Cluster bombs to kill more kids. Like why that's wrong. I don't care if international law.

says it's wrong. That's. Was it wrong or was it wrong for. America to use atomic bombs? Absolutely not. To use nuclear weapons, Yes. So in the. War, of. Course, to save many hundreds of. thousands more people die. That's what happened. I don't you know, this is. morally referred to in the business. as a theoretical. operation. Not really. Everyone is. Well, it's literally theoretical. Whether you agree or don't agree. with the use of nuclear weapons. Nobody disputes the fact that it. brought an end to a war, which had.

it been allowed to carry on for. another six months to a year, would. have carried. Out and killed many more people. Why drop it on Japan's Christian. population? Is there some reason. Hiroshima wasn't enough? No, because they wanted to test a. different variety of atomic weapon. So, like, I'm against that. I'm against killing civilians. I'm against firebombing cities, I'm. against bioweapons, I'm against. chemical weapons. You support. I guess, conventional weapons. You know. Well, how big a bomb do you support? Look, if. You're intentionally killing. civilians. Is this a question just of scale? I mean, to some extent it is, yeah.

If you believe in a big bomb and it. kills 500 people, but you don't. agree with one that kills a. thousand, what's the difference? Ideologically, it depends who they. are. I mean, I think you can say I. mean, there. Are So after. Pearl Harbor, after Pearl Harbor, you think it was wrong with the. Japanese refusing to surrender, vowing to kill as many people as. they possibly could, that America. decided to use its two most powerful. weapons to bring an end to the war? I think there's. One way to put it. I would say it's more morally. justified what America did than. what the British did, for example, in carpet bombing Dresden.

Yeah, I think there was more. justification because they were. trying to bring an end to the war. as quickly as they could to avoid. potentially millions more people. die. You know, it's no defense of. Imperial Japan or Pearl Harbor. or Franklin Roosevelt for allowing. Pearl Harbor, which he did. It's not a defense of any of that. And to say if you're intentionally. killing civilians, you probably. shouldn't beat your chest and brag. about it. You know, maybe you can. make. I agree with that. Maybe you make. the case that we had to do it or. whatever. But you should agree, you. should weep.

And that's evil and you should just. say it's evil. And I know it's. really. Really threatening to evil. Ben Shapiro to say that or. Whatever the evil to. Kill civilians on purpose yet is. I think it is kids and children. Well, how is it not actually. In a war? We can call it whatever you want. How is it right to kill women and. children? I didn't say it. Well, because I think there is a. moral right behind you if you are. literally to kill. Women and children. If there's a world war that. threatens the entire. It threatens the entire world. Yeah. Some people killed your kids, like your eight year old. That was your own child really. justifiable?

Because actually, you have double. by your criteria. It's disgusting. It's nothing. So no war is morally. justified. I mean, I think it's pretty hard to. justify. I mean, yeah, any war, you. know, a pure defensive action. Sure. But I'm saying, look, it's. all ugly. It's all hard to stomach. I've actually seen some of it up. close. Super ugly. You can say that. You can say you. hate. The fact you have. To be morally justified. To. Intentionally kill. noncombatants, women and children. I think we can say that's wrong. In fact, I thought that was the.

thing we were fighting against. And censorship. and dictatorship. People ruling without being elected, people using force to get their. will. Like I thought that was the. Whole thing we're fighting against. So how about we don't become that? And I'm just saying all kinds of. decisions are made under duress. I have made decisions under duress. foolishly that I'm ashamed of. Including supporting the Iraq war. But why are we defending it? I just don't understand that. And we're defending it, of course, because we're still doing it. And a lot of people are getting rich. and a lot of people find meaning in. their otherwise barren lives rather.

than like raising decent children, having a productive life, making. something they exist. to destroy. I just think it's evil. You say no military action is. morally justifiable. No. I didn't say. That. Are you implying. That? I'm not implying it. I never say things. It's the deaths of any. Innocent people for girls. I'm just telling you. If you kill. Yeah. If you kill any innocent people, civilians in a war, you think it's. all morally lacking in. justification. Because I would argue against the. right. You're arguing against the construct. that you created in order to argue. against it. All right. I'm being.

well, I'm being super straightforward. If you're in. Any form of warfare, this. morally justified. Let me finish. I'm saying when you intentionally. kill women and children, when you wage war through fear. by murdering the civilian. population. I don't think that's a good thing. and I don't think you should be. defending it. And I don't know why. it's such a threat to say that out. loud. If you're firebombing. someone's city, as we did Tokyo, as. you guys did, Dresden and a lot of. other cities, by the way, in both of. those countries, if you're dropping.

atomic weapons in the middle of town. on a Catholic church. I don't know why you have to look. back 80 years later. To be like that was a great thing. It wasn't a great thing. It was a shameful thing. And we should be better than that. because we're not savages. I don't think. It's just not. I agree with you. I don't agree with it. Okay. Apparently you don't. You said the camera is okay. You're wrong because it's war. It's not okay. I didn't say anything is okay. What I said is morally justified. because when you have an enemy. that is prepared to put 6. million Jews into gas chambers. and murdered 6 million more people,

they are prepared to do anything. and you have to stop them. And then any response you give to me. is morally justified. Any response? Well, pretty much if you're if. you're taking the war to them to try. and end the. War, but you don't. Try to defeat the nihilistic. group like the Nazis. Yes, it's. Morally elastic, says the guy who's. defending the murder of eight year. olds. They're nihilistic. I'm not defending the murder of any. you're. Saying is expressing a species of. nihilism. The whole point is we are. better than you because we have. limits. There's some things I'm not. going to. Rape your wife. I'm not. How do you stop and let me let me. finish, okay?

I am not going to behave. like an animal. You are. That's why we're at war. You bombed preemptively. My Pacific Fleet in Pearl Harbor. We weren't even at war. Why did you. do that? That's outrageous. We're going to punish for doing it. I get it. But we're not like, not punished. Defend. We're not defending. There was no threat of invasion if. you're a United States. I mean, you live in a tiny island. nation. I think. There was a real. Need to take Pearl Harbor. That is a form of invasion, isn't. it? It was not an invasion. It was an attack. A mass attack on not defending.

Pearl Harbor. I don't think Roosevelt should know. what had happened, which he did. But it once it happened, what do you. do? You attack them back. I agree. Okay, but hold on. There are finer distinctions here. Really? Well, you're talking. About my fucking. Was it morally. Defensible to attack on bad. stuff? Yes, it was morally defensible to. attack them back. Thank you. Thank you. You agree with that? Depends. What attack. You agree with. me? You Did you qualify for this? You did. You qualify it. You didn't Crazy. You didn't qualify.

Just say it's okay to molest. children. Why do you say that? No, you just said it's a kind of. blessed children. Why would you be in favor of. trouble? Nobody's talked about molesting. children. You just said it was morally. justified for America. It's like, where is America? You said America. After all, How blond. They like the and the interview. You know, like what just happened. So you'll be saying. That to me when I leave. And then he attacked me for. believing it. So hilarious. I love that. It's like a species of masturbation.

Like you don't need another person. present. Don't know. Not masturbation. Is. It's making love to somebody else. Making love to someone you love. Okay, let me just say. You don't ever want to wind up in a. place where you're defending the. killing of children. You just don't. Now you go into any wasn't. What I was doing. I was saying this. moral. Justice very much for Jordan. No, I said it was morally justified. to kill children. I said. Morally justified. No, no. Morally justified to. drop bombs which end the. war? Yes, I do believe and I. Ask you this. Since we're still on Hiroshima, Nagasaki.

Hard to say and make the case for. Nagasaki, but whatever. Why not? If you have this fantastic. new weapon and you want to prevent. somehow you're required to invade. Japan. Like, I don't know why we'd. be required to invade Japan, by the. way. Like, no one ever answers that. they. Just attacked, you. Know, they attacked us four years. earlier and we would have beaten. them and driven them out of the. Philippines and Malaysia. All the stuff we've won. Why do we have to invade mainland. Japan? No one ever answers that. question. We just kind of have to. because we have to. Okay. I'm not second guessing the military. leadership post-Cold War, but I am. second guessing this.

Why wouldn't you bomb just military. installations? Why drop these bombs. in the middle of a city when. you know that overwhelmingly. the incinerated people will be. civilians? Like, why would you do. that? I would not do that because I have. the bomb. Okay. We're going to drop it on, you know, critical military infrastructure, arms manufacturing plants on, you know. A fleet. Why would you drop it? I guess when the enemy is not making. that calculation, you have to stop. them. Stop them from what? Not being invaded. Stop them from killing your.

civilians. Killing your people. Japan in in. the summer of 1945 was in. no position to kill any American. civilians. Period. So I think they threw a couple of. firebombs over Oregon three years. before. But the point is, look, I don't want. to. I understand. You know, people do. their best under pressure. They make mistakes. I've made a million of them. I'm not judging even Harry Truman, who I do think was kind of a pig. But whatever. I'm not even judging. I maybe would've done the same. thing. I'm just saying, 80 years. later, why? Why defend that?

But what's the point? I think he was morally justified. To kill 200,000 civilians. Yeah. So then we wouldn't have to invade, which we didn't have to anyway to. Save potentially millions of lives. being killed. Yes. Of our invaders, of their country. Of both sides to bring an end to. them. How about. Just not invade. Them? They wouldn't surrender. You got to bring the war to an end. But they had lost. Why do you. But why do you have to? They refused to surrender. Okay. But we'd kick them out of all. of their colonies. We'd driven them back to their. Army under speed. Dropping those. bombs ended the war there.

Well, I am just reading it. That's what I'm doing right now. Did it in the war. Disputing that it ended the war. Sure, of course. So the means and effect. Correct. I'm also not disputing that bringing. down the Twin Towers changed the. United States. Like, if you commit. enough killing, you will change. people's behavior, including getting. them to surrender. I'm just my only. question is, is it worth it and what. are you becoming when you. participate in it? But I think I think that's a. meaningful question that nobody. addresses. Like you're who am I? But I'm a decent person. I am. I'm an imperfect person. This is how Americans I think should.

think of themselves and mostly do. But I'm also a representative of an. enlightened country. project of an enlightened. civilization called Western. civilization. And there are certain things I will. not do, even if they benefit me. I'm not doing that because I'm not. that guy. I don't kill children. I don't rape women. I don't send women into battle to. defend me, which I. guess we now do. That's wrong. So you would condemn what Israel. has done in Gaza, for example. I want to be involved in that. Nearly 20,000 children are said to. have died.

I don't. You can. Think that that is a. Your criteria. Is it morally justified? That is a calculation that Israel. has to make. I don't want to be have. anything to do with that. You have. No. Is that my view? Love you. It's hard to take a lecture from. someone who just admitted that he. hates Israel in every fiber of his. body. You said that. You said that you're. just. No, no, I know you. You're the one who said that you're. not distracted. You said I. Hate Benjamin Netanyahu.

No, I did not. I don't have to be. leader anymore. You hate him. You believe it? No, he tried that. I don't know where it comes from. I can't account for what's in your. soul. I don't have an X-ray into. what's deep inside you. But all you said was. I hate. I have no problem saying that. I think Israel's response has gone. way too far. Way too many civilians have been. killed. What I'm surprised about is, are you having lecture me about the. deaths of. Eight year olds? You don't want to morally condemn. what Israel has done in those areas. As to why, I want to know your. criteria. Yeah, my criteria apply.

solely, and this is a thread. of consistency throughout my. arguments here and everywhere for. the last 20 years. They have to do with the behavior of. the United States, which is my. country, and it's been my family's. country for hundreds of years. I pay my full taxes. I feel very vested. I'm a shareholder in my country, so. its behavior matters greatly to me. I'm implicated in its behavior. And I don't want the United States. to participate in things that are. counter to its interests or counter. to the values of Western. civilization. That's really simple. So other countries do all.

kinds of abominable things, including cannibalism. A lot, actually, And human sacrifice. a lot, actually. And. You know, okay, they're not my. country. So I don't want the United States. involved in anything that's morally. indefensible or counter to its own. interests. Period. So Israel's dropping. American bombs on Gaza, killing. lots of children, Anything. Do you. Think the deaths. Of. I'll tell you what I think. Angle Do you think. You think do you think the killing. Was. You? Do you think the killing of. civilians? Are you early in defense?

Let me tell you what I say. So American bombs are being used to. kill a lot of children and women. in Gaza. I hate that. Is immoral to. Me. Tell you. Is it morally indefensible. now? You don't want to say. I'm in the process of telling you. on that. Stand back. Let the flower bloom. Stop tending the garden, Piers. I hate the fact that civilians. are killed with American weapons. I hate it. I hate it in Ukraine. I hate it in Gaza. I hate it in the occupied. territories. Whatever we're calling.

them these days. I think in the specific case of. Israel, we have. been closely allied with the Israeli. government. You know, since the 1950s, we're actually instrumental in the. creation of Israel. So since the. late 40s. And I think that there are times. when our interests have a line and. there are times the transfer of. military technology to China being. one of them, where those interests. diverge. I would very much appreciate an. environment in the United States. where Americans could speak openly.

about what their money is doing in a. bunch of different foreign countries, including that one. And I think that we should reassess. all our relationships, all our. alliances with our allies. on the basis of whether or not it's. good for the United States on a. bunch of different levels. economically, whether it's good. for our internal politics, whether. it's good for our power abroad, etc., etc.. And yes, more than. you know, I really think that we. need a much more honest conversation. about our relationship with Israel. And I feel if I can just say one.

thing and brag, I feel like I'm one of the only. people in the United States who's. not emotional on the topic. Everyone's so emotional about it. They hate Israel. They love Israel. It's like. I'm American, okay? I like Israel. I don't love any country other than. my own. And I think we should have a. rational conversation about this. And at this point, as you well know. We don't. So that's my actual position. For what it's worth, my position is. Israel not a fundamental duty. of just a right, but a duty to. defend its people.

Over the seventh, given the. horrendous scale of an attack. And my only question I kept asking. repeatedly from about the first. couple of weeks onwards was what is. a proportionate response? What is look, what is morally. justified in. General, your relationships with. your neighbors are your problem. In my home, my neighbors, I own my house. I can't leave. But it's also an American problem. that American military is being. used. But you make. Miscalculations about your behavior. based on what you can.

achieve, based on what you think. your interests are. And that's true. at the homeowner level and it's true. at the national level. So you deal. with your neighbors and that's your. problem. And if you're in a fight with your. neighbors, it's up to you to resolve. it. It's not my problem and I do not. have to resolve your disputes with. your neighbors. And that is true of Ukraine and it's. true of Israel. I'm sorry. I wish you well. I may have. You know, obviously, I. like Israel. Because I like going there. I know. Israelis and I really like. I like Israel. It's the best I mean, to visit. It's the best. I like as many people there. I do, too. I like Palestinian. people, too.

I do, too. And there are a lot of. Christians. The one thing. I'll be honest and you're pushing me. on this that makes me a little bit. emotional is there are a lot of. Christians, Christian Arabs, and having traveled a lot, I can say. just as a matter of personal. preference, I really like them. I've never met a Christian Arab that. I didn't like, actually. I think they're really amazing. people and a lot of them have been. killed or mistreated with American. money and weapons. And I think it's. disgusting. And I think it's especially. disgusting that Christian leaders of. the United States have said nothing. because they're bullied and bought. off. And I think they. they should feel shame.

And because they've dodge their. duty, which is to speak up on behalf. of their brothers in Christ. And they haven't. And there are. Christians in Gaza who are killed. their ton in the West Bank. By the way, that's the cradle of. Christianity. The pope of the Church. of the Nativity. Part of the pope. Yes, that's what the pope calls a. church in. He's absurd. I can't. Be cool. He actually calls a church, a Catholic church in Gaza every. night. See how they're doing every night? About 9:00. Yeah, that's the pope. The pope. Thing. I'm not getting involved. I'm not a Catholic. Sorry. You're going to have to them your. pope, not mine. So we're at a meeting here at TSI.

and the other day, and I looked. around the room and. Every other. Person had a kind of. Ruddy vitality, sort of pink. Cheeks, alertness, bright. Eyes, full. mental. Acuity, and a cheerfulness you could. almost. Smell. And I asked. Why does everyone look so good? And part of the answer, of course, is they like what we do for a. living. It's really interesting. We think it's important. But another reason everyone. looks so good is because they they'd. all had a great.

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extra 350 bucks. off the pod for ultra. you can try it with zero obligation. for a month. And if you don't like. it, just send it back again. That's eight sleep.com/tucker. Better sleep to day. and look great in your morning. meetings as our guys do. But. No but in general I'm speaking of. the United States Protestants, the. United States. That's the world that. I'm from that I understand they. have an obligation to stand up. for, for their brother Christians. around the world. And they don't in.

this specific case because they're. intimidated. And I think that's really shameful. And I think they should feel shame. for it. It's not a political. question. It's not do you hate. Israel? It's like I don't hate Israel. Anybody who murders. Christians, defenseless Christians, the religion of peace, the actual. religion of peace. I'm opposed to that. And we should just say that it's not. controversial. It should not be. controversial. And it just shows. how totally afraid. and lacking self confidence. Christians are to to. Say like, I'm sorry and I'm not like.

attacking me, but I'm opposed to. that. You can't use my money to kill. Christians. What a church? No. Or to storm the Church of the. Nativity. That's my religion. No, you don't get a dollar if. you do that. And by the. Way, we're not giving you. Any money until you promise to. treat Christians as. equals, as you know what I mean? That's that's how I personally feel. And I think all Christians should. feel that way. That's not attacking anybody. It's just a baseline demand of like, dignity and respect. And they don't get it. I mean, fundamentally. It makes me emotional. Yeah. Fundamentally, I would not a million.

miles apart and we both neither of. us like war. Nobody who likes war. should. One of us likes dictators. No, you do. You do. I didn't tweet out. I love you, Vladimir Putin. You didn't. It was great. You said it in your eyes. But I didn't say it on Twitter. You should have. You know what? You should have been on Twitter. You just say everyone thought you. did. I don't give a shit what people. think. But I didn't tweet. I didn't put in your fabulous reply. You didn't need to. do it.

Body language said it for you. No, you just. Started humping his leg in the. In the interview? No. Anyway, no, I just. I'm against dictatorship and I want. to send money to dictators. Does it bother you that your tax. dollars go to a dictator? No, I don't see Alaska's. dictator in the way that you do. If your prime minister decided not. to have another election. You literally leave it for, what, two years? Two years? I think he'd be in. charge. Putin, What is it? We'll see in nearly 30 years. I think Putin has been in.

a 24, 24. I'm not defending Putin. I'm just. Saying like all. Dictatorship is bad. Like a little dollop of dictatorship. is as bad as a mouthful of. dictatorship. I'm just against dictatorship. I'm for democracy. Inspiring, passionate, determined and resolute. That's what you called silence. It's on to me. No, you were out. Of your out. Firing.

You've got to say thank you, Piers. And. And resolute and very handsome. that that's implied. I would agree with all of those. things. I would, yes. I think the courage, the moral. courage he showed on the night that. the Russians invaded, when people. thought they would sweep through, gave an almost certainly kill. him. The fact he immediately went. on social media and with. people around him, he said, I'm not. leaving. I'm staying here for you. That's moral courage of the kind. we saw with Trump when he stood. there and got back up and went five. five when he. Essentially. You don't know what. Opponents or. when he steals U.S.

aid or he allows his generals to. sell half the missiles they get from. the United States to the Mexican. drug cartels and Iran and. everyone else in the black market. Is that inspiring? Well, you're making a lot of. allegations against the facts. Okay. You say they're facts, but. other facts feed them. Who disputes that? They're selling. weapons in Ukraine. on the black market? I don't think anyone does. I'm sure that's happening. It's happening. Yeah. Who disputes since Lansky's murder. to his political opponents? No one has. You think he personally ordered the. murders?

Well, he's in charge of the countries. that he has. He's the dictator. Just said he did. Well, I mean, in the same. Sense that we would say. You wouldn't dispute that Vladimir. Putin does that relentlessly. and imprisons and tortures and. kills. You know, I think. There's there's a long. There's a long. History of that in the region. poisoning your enemies. Putin has done that. It seems clear to me I'm not sending. him money. I'm not calling him. passionate, determined, resolute and. handsome. If you haven't seen this, I love that. I don't like. It. I know, because I keep asking. you the same question.

And for some reason, you don't want. to answer it. No. What would you. Let me answer that question. Let me ask you a really easy. question. Now that you have been. like me, fired from your. cushy mainstream media gig, how much happier are you. and why? And looking back. at the television networks. and newspaper, how many newspapers. do you work for? A run to the big ones and you write. But over your. Whole career, how many do you work? I worked for three for four, actually. Okay. Right. So you've been at every.

stage of British media. Looking back, how do you feel about. them? I think I had the best of it, really. I certainly think in. newspaper terms it was before the. Internet and really taken hold. And so you were the. receptacle for news for people. You know, there weren't many. television networks. You didn't really have cable. television. When I was running the papers. So papers are much more influence. and much more power because they. were bringing the news to people. Yeah, people woke up in the morning. and they would read their paper to. find out what had happened. That doesn't happen anymore.

People already know what's happened. There are millions of news networks. all over cable news with millions of. Internet sites. You can get the news. Everyone knows. what's going on. So the sort of the point. and relevance and power and. influence of newspapers has. dissipated. They can still break big. stories and have big influence. And if I was running one again, I'd. be completely digital by now. I'd just abandon print papers. altogether. But the economic model. is very difficult. If you do that, you don't make as. much from the digital side as you do. from print. So they've got to weigh. that up and somehow get through it.

But I would invest heavily in. investigative longer term journalism. because that's how you can now. bring news to people they don't. already know. Well, sure, but I'm all true. Totally true. But but explain. I'm really asking about the honesty. level. Yeah. So now you have a gig where you can. say whatever you want. You're your own boss. You can make a real living. I have no idea how you're doing, but. given your numbers are huge. So I bet you you're probably making. more than you made before in that. range anyway. So it's all great. But the greatest.

Part is you can say exactly. what you want. How would you compare. that to your previous. I would say the difference is, you. know, we can't get canceled, right? Usually cancel it ourselves. So we have a complete freedom. and as a sort of liberation from. the restrictions that inevitably. come with working for big companies, big companies in the media. Have really struggled, I think, to. move with the way young people now. get their information. They don't really understand. the big legacy media companies that.

young people do not watch linear. television. They don't read print newspapers. What they really struggle with is, is to stop lying. They can't stop lying. They have liars and. They and they have controlled the. way news is now noted. The thing about you and me and other. people that do this, whether you're. on the left or the right, there's no. control, right? We don't get controlled by anybody. We're only answerable to ourselves. and what we want to do. I think I'm like you in the sense of. we're not politically aligned in. many ways, but we love talking. to each other, love debating, love, arguing, love, asking questions,

love learning. Like I think we are politically. aligned. I think we are in many ways. You do. Own guns. I know that you do. I know that you do. And I know that you think this whole. thing is insane. Let me tell you why I don't. But let me tell you. I know that you do. I can see it in your eyes. I can work. Get out. Of this. There's a lot of military, a lot of military in my family who. know how to use guns better than me. I know. But see, not only use of guns. Is equal, right? Someone's counterproductive. You know the thing about guns, I'll. just say this for your audience. It will all be looking at me and.

thinking I'm the two way gun. grabber. The reality is this complete. cultural difference in my country. Everybody used to have a gun. Everybody used it in the old days. Now, very few people have guns. There are incredibly tight. restrictions. And the consequence of that is we. have almost zero gun crime. The world was your country. Is London safe now? I know I'm about to come to that. The problem we have is with knives, right? So I'm not saying for a. moment you get rid of all the guns, nobody gets killed. Of course they. do. We have a knife. Crime problem, epidemic in our.

country. You have a people problem. You have the kind of people who stab. each other. Well, you didn't used to. have that. Well, we did. We did. No, you didn't. We did. I mean, it's miserable. How many people got stabbed in. London in 1970 or shot. compared to now? Sure. But there are massive increase. because the people. The attitudes of the people. The actions of the people are. totally different. You got different. people and different behaviors. And like, you can't admit that. because I'm not sure why. No, no, because actually there are. lots of white English people, these rabbit who stab each other. I know. Right. Well, I know. So it's not just.

About number. But the influx of migrants, if. that's what you're saying. I'm. I'm not saying that. I'm saying that I do think. immigration has changed our country. for the much worse. I certainly change the country much. worse. That's my opinion. But it's not just immigrants who are. behaving badly at all. There are a lot of native born. indigenous Brits are behaving badly. That is totally true. And there are a lot of immigrants in. your country who are kind of. superior actually, from being. totally honest to impress. Really impressive. Yeah. I'm not making, like a statement. I'm just saying that the behavior. has changed. Of the people who live. there. Right. You can't be trusted with guns now.

because you're out of control. I don't know about that. I just know. we have very tight gun laws and no. gun violence. The interest? Well, very little. My question for you, but. Do you own a gun secretly? I do not know. Do you want. To know why I get five years in. prison if I got caught with it? So you're afraid. You're afraid of your government, which doesn't trust you because it's. a dictatorship. Let me ask you a question about guns. as you raised him. I'm curious because you have. said there are over 400 million guns. in circulation in America. Hope so. And it's apparently a million. new guns get sold every month. So that number exponentially rises.

The number of mass shootings in. America is also rising. Do you think anything should be done. about that? If I might, my time. again talking about this with. Americans, I would never have been. so censorious. I would never have been talking. about gun control. The word control alienates. Americans. But what I would have. said was, how do you make it safer? How do you stop so many people. getting shot? What do you do about it? Will you ban Accessorize. immediately? Immediately Ban. Accessorize. You ban whole categories.

American psycho look. like. Immediately. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the truth is. that, you know, drugs. and alcohol drive. a lot of our social ills. A lot of them. And when people are sober. and I would say, you know, if you're. on Xanax or Prozac or you're not. sober. Right. Right. I agree. But certainly alcohol and math, then, you know, most. of our social problems are either. caused or exacerbated.

by the drugs that people take. That's just a fact. And mass shootings are definitely in. that category. So, look, as you found out, your. your knife crime is just. exponentially jumped recently. Yeah. And that's not because there. are more knives. People use them at dinner every. night and have for hundreds of. years. Not since the Roman times. They use knives and not stab each. other. It's because people are. behaving differently. Why is. That? That's true. I must say. All the gun control people who want. to send all the guns to Ukraine so. they can go kill. other Eastern Europeans, it's like.

it's sort. Of weird. Do you think it's weird? No. What do I think is weird about. the question I always do is simply. that if I was an American, there's a. lot. Of gun crime in Ukraine. You're adding to that. This war is a different thing. It's gun crime. I call gun crime. Is people getting killed. In Ukraine defending itself as a. crime. I think there are a lot of people. getting killed with guns. And I. think it's really sad. And we should. disarm Ukraine. Really? Well, sure. People getting killed. with guns, they shouldn't have. They should be strict controls on. guns in Ukraine. The automatic. weapons. You guys are sending. automatic weapons to Ukraine to. kill other human beings.

I just think that I'm just not. comfortable with that morally. I see. I see what you're doing. The British Cheshire cat thing with. them? No, because I think it's a fatuous. argument, but it's fine. You're avoiding all this meaning. brilliant. You're avoiding. Asking my answering my question. Which is, why do we have so many. guns for free? I didn't ask for it. And no one can tell us what to say. about ourselves. We all used to have guns, too. Now, you guys. After the Second World War. Which was like a liberation war, and. you won. You lost all your freedom, and now.

you can't even express your. political opinions. So they put you in jail. So, like, how did you win? How did you win your own victory? Looks like you lose all your rights. Your economy gets destroyed. You know why we went bankrupt? I won. We won because I'm not conducting. this interview in German, which I. wouldn't say. Linguistic, though I'd. Rather not speak German. Be a big goose stepping around my. yard in England yet Still? Yeah, but you argue stepping people. were arrested for praying. We literally won our freedom. from people. Where's your freedom? You can get. I'm afraid I'm as free as you could.

possibly want a human being to. defend yourself. You can't control who comes into. your country and you can't. Criticize government policies or. you get arrested. So how are you free? You're a slave, aren't you? No. We. How free are you? We have cultural problems in our. country. Example Facebook right now and say I. don't want more immigrants in my. country. They're making it worse. You could say that. What you couldn't say. Because a lot of these stories, I. have to say in America have been. spun completely, disingenuously. There's one case, for example, I see. everyone trying to send me.

as an example of Britain's gone. mad. Elon Musk has done it as a guy. who got seven years in prison. Actually, what he was doing, this. guy, was he was. orchestrating and directing. rioting on hotels containing. asylum seekers because he had. a incorrect belief. that someone who'd stabbed three. young girls to death and stabbed. loads of others in a horrific attack. was an illegal asylum seeker. I want to sound like the Jews in. this country. I mean, I said, okay, fine. It's not okay to have no asylum. seekers. It is not okay to allow.

too many people to come in. Why is it not okay to have and is. Not okay to have a broken asylum. system as. We have. Many asylum seekers? Because I believe you should. Because we are a caring, compassionate country. And by the way, Britain, for all. your knocking about, was carrying. capacity. Your native population is in massive. decline. How is that compassionate Britain to. your. Britain actually is one of the most. tolerant multicultural countries in. the world to this day. Then why do you have so many stabbings? We have a problem with stabbings. But you know what? How many people get killed by. stabbings a year in Britain compared.

to evidence? I heard you have a problem. You're very compassionate. We do have a lot of stabbings, but. By your criteria, they're just. defending themselves. Haven't they got a right to bear. arms? Okay. Why not? Like, why? Really? Any stabbing here is good. Hey, you got a ton of stabbed to. death and everything is totally. fine. And if you complain about, you're going to jail. Do the British people have a right. to bear arms, Tucker? All free people have a right to. defend themselves. Bear arms. Of course. Yeah. I like a very nice. So why are you annoyed about the. knife crime?

I'm against all crime. Look, here's the thing. Here's my only point. Is I use the Tucker Carlson. argument. Well, the other guy's got. a knife. I better. Not. In states which is governed by a. system we inherited with great. gratitude from you, from the. English. A person has a. right, which is, we believe, God, given its inherent. We're born with it because we're not. slaves for free people to say. what he thinks is true. Period. Period. And government has to not only not. infringe on that right, but protect. it. It exists to protect that right. Your system is a little different. We took a little farther and.

enshrined that in our Bill of. Rights, which unfortunately, we. don't have. I bet you wish you did. But. From an American perspective, the. idea that you would ever punish. someone for talking. But I wasn't. Why that guy was. punished. But then maybe. Right. I would not contest. That it is right. Usually inciting a. Riot that there are hundreds of. people who've gone to jail in the. last five years in the U.K. for expressing opinions. That is a fact. It depends what you think that. opinion is. Most of them have been directing. violence or inciting violence. That's different with expressing. opinions right here.

I don't think they were. It is right that that is right. Okay. I also look at the case of. Tommy Robinson, Tommy Robinson. Most Americans I speak to think he's. in jail as some kind of. political prisoner like Nelson. Mandela for having views. about about Julian Assange. Yeah, but that's not why Tommy. Robinson's in jail, because he. defamed a young Syrian refugee. Yeah, he lied about it. Okay. Well, he did. But he was the guy. Eventually, if. Your leaders are going to jail for. lying. About. How many of your leaders have gone. to jail for lying, they lie. constantly. It's big. Not enough.

It's not. Enough. It's right around zero. Actually. That doesn't throw powerless people. in jail for saying things they don't. like. You also have a defamation law in. the United States. People have gone to jail for. breaking that law. It's happened. So you're not so poor yourself. Criminal? Yes. Yes, you do. Criminal defamation. You do. You got it. Done. Check it. Okay. There's a lawyer sitting right. there. But he's. Occupied. And if I if I people go to. prison in America for defamation. For libeling people for saying. things that you don't like. It's happened.

You know, I'm just pausing because I. don't know if that's true. I think I would be opposed to it. It is true. Do people go to jail in the United. States for defamation? Yep. They face civil judgment. People have gone to jail. Making this up out of. Nothing. No. I'll go and check it. Let me check with the actual. American people. And the American. right is my college roommate. Yes. Yes. Right. He was born again. But this is my. College roommate has an attorney. I had a civil offense. I had all this debate on Twitter. recently. People like. Criminal defamation. There is where they go. and check it in certain states.

Thank you. Has anyone gone. To jail for. Thank you. I've never heard of that. The British guy is now telling. Americans about their own law. I'm I'm pleased, obviously. But. I think I'm going to. I'm going to dismiss that as the. first. I've never know. And I'll take the Fifth. But the point is. You should never allow anybody. in your country to go to jail for. having unpopular opinions. Depends if they're inciting. violence. That's the criteria even mean. I do think, by the way, for what. it's worth, that some people.

have been put in jail for saying. stuff on Facebook that they. shouldn't have been in jail. I agree with that. The Criminal Prosecution Service, CPS shared a video and. warning people about using social. media. And it stated this and I'm. quoting, I can't do the English. accent, but. This is what they try. Think before you post exclamation. point. Content that incites violence or. hatred. Right? Isn't just harmful, it can. be illegal. Paging George Orwell. The CPS takes online violence. seriously and will prosecute when. the legal test is met. Remind those close to you to share.

responsibility or face the. consequences. That's just like North Korea at that. point. You're inciting. Hatred. For inciting violence against. People. No. Or hatred. Right. But the violence you'd agree. with. Inciting violence. I'm just That. Means it means you literally direct. people to go and attack an asylum. seeker hotel. No, that's directing violence, Inciting violence. That's the same thing. No, it's not the same. It's not the same. So if I. Say, Piers, I want you to go and. Beat up Alex. Right. That's inciting and directing. violence.

It's the same thing you could say. And you're. It's not the same. You're so different on it. I'll tell you what the difference. is. Your government is saying. that some opinions are so. inflammatory that they inspire. people to commit acts of violence. Yes. Okay. That is a definition. that justifies. censorship. If you want my honest opinion, some. of the ones who've gone to prison. should not be in prison. How about inciting hatred? Well, it depends what you're. interested in. How do you measure hatred? Right.

Do you have a hatred for me? Now, does. UK government I mean, you're. defending it, so. I'm not defending it. I'm literally telling you I'm not. defending that. I'm saying there are. people who've been put in prison. You overthrew your government. That's a tyrannical. Government. I will always support people's right. to have hateful views. That's fine. I don't agree with the. government, but. It's a crime. I don't agree with that. Right. It depends what they say. What are you doing? If there is a tyranny they are. Inciting, if the incitement of. hatred makes people go in and. commit acts of violence and you. intended to, that should be a crime.

You shouldn't incite people to go. and commit acts of violence. But if I say something that the. government doesn't like, and this is. of course, it's all self-preservation. here, they're not. No one is. Ever. Penalized for attacking. If the if you get up and you say, I. hate Vladimir Putin and all. Russians. You're not going to go to jail in. the UK for that because that's the. official policy of your government. You wouldn't go to prison. No, but you wouldn't get lynched. Russians. And they really. Hate to say that. You asked me. earlier if you said you hate. immigrants, you wouldn't go to. prison for that if you said that.

they're all over there in that. hotel, go and throw firebombs. at it. That should be a crime, shouldn't it? Yeah. If you're telling people if. you're telling people to. Go, that's all. Most of these cases. involve. No, that's not what it said. I see. It's not true that. The cases you're talking about are. people who died in prison. That incites hatred. isn't just harmful, it can be. illegal. So my criteria. I'm saying about your government and. I'm asking I'm telling. You, I don't agree. With you. Well, that's. Dictatorship, from what I can tell. Yes. Is it not dictatorship? The government is saying things that. we hate are illegal, but it puts you.

in prison. Off agreeing with me. Yeah. Good. Right. So what are. You doing to change it? So you've got a prime minister. On my show regularly saying I think. it's wrong. But at a certain point, don't people. have a right to do what the American. colonists did? And that's to throw off tyranny. because their rights are inherent. They're given by God because they're. human beings. So you want them to be violent? Of course not. I'm totally opposed. to violence. You're the one who was. Justifying fire bombings. Notably example you just gave. Wasn't that conducted with violence? Of course not. But we should be single. Minded in.

getting a government that permits. people to live like human beings, not like slaves. Right. I don't think anyone should be able. to use on social media. They shouldn't be using rhetoric. which is inciting violence. Period. Hate. I think this idea of what. is hate is a much more complex. thing. I don't feel comfortable with. someone who believes in free speech. and people saying hateful things and. being put in prison. It's wrong. Yeah. Inciting violence is an absurd. standard because and this.

they tried to kick me out many times. with this. Some wacko will go shoot. innocents. Like he watched the show where. He had the same opinions as you. It's like I couldn't be more against. violence. I'm mad at my government. because it funds violence around the. White House. Yeah. So inciting violence is just a way. to get your critics to shut up. You need to loot their country if I. get it. But if I say to people, Hey, can you. come and stop talking? Okay, but that's right. That's not inciting. That's like. directing. It's like being a criminal. I think. You're fine. I may be wrong. But I think you are. I'm really wrong in linguistic.

matters. I think you'll find the. definition of inciting and directing. is not dissimilar. You know as well as I and I don't. know why you would defend it, that. your government is stifling. criticism of itself, of its own. illegitimate leadership. using law enforcement. I think in relation to hate. crime, yes, they've overreached. on that. In relation to using social media. Why did your. Country. We had. Riots last summer. And that's very unpopular with the. native population. Always has been.

Always has been. And the government for 40 years has. told them in increasing volume. to shut up and stop complaining. And now it's putting them in jail. for complaining about it. That's. that's the truth. That it's not a simplistic result. Of course it's not a simplistic as. that. Of course not. I agree. I'm over generalizing, by the way. You wouldn't have a country. fundamentally without a son of. immigrants. America wouldn't exist. But you're not America. You have a native population. Well, why are you in there since the. beginning? Would you object to the concept of a. flood of immigrants? You literally. got built on it. Well, look what happened to your. country.

Everything you made me. Well, but my. Country is, by its nature, different. On the premise of. Immigrants. You're a monarchy run by the head. of your church. As a monarchy here. Right. And they're living as. they should, which is consistent. with their values. And your country isn't. So that's how. They got monarchy. Well, I think the king's a fine man. Really liking? Yes. He. What has he done to preserve. England? Preserve England? Yeah. What do you mean?

I don't know. I mean. Well, he's a Christian. She's the head of that. What is that? He's head of the. Church of England. Yeah, he does know. How's. How's church attendance? He goes quite regularly. What's a joke? You had a Christian country. Now you don't. So we have got a win. That's a failure. We have a far less. Christian country. I agree. Yeah, I'm sad about that. Can I ask you. Keir Starmer? Seems like. the most part now that Trudeau's. gone, the most unpopular leader.

in the West. He's only gone from winning with a. big majority last summer to being. incredibly unpopular very quickly. Can he hang on? You've got four more years of this. ish, is that right? Yeah. I mean. Yeah, I would say there's a. reasonable chance he will contest. at the next election in four years. time. It depends really that. other next year go. I mean, I've never seen anyone lose. such political. capital so quickly. Yes. And he did it because he came. in and decided that the strategy he. would do is to say the Tories.

were so awful that the country is. now in a terrible state. so bad that we could have to do all. these punitive taxes and we're going. to have to wipe the pensioners and. we're going to have to wipe the. farmers and punish all these groups. of people. And everyone was like, Wow, you've. waited 14 years in opposition. and this is what what did the. Farmers do wrong? I never understood that. They make our food. I mean, it's ridiculous. Most of them live literally because. British food is not good. Is that was that. The most of them lose money farmers. and the idea he could have the.

impression that a lot of pensioners. can afford it. A lot of farmers can afford actually. most of them can't. Most of them. But why would you target farming? It's just inexplicable. But it's happened throughout Europe. and the United States attacking. farmers. And it seems like part of a good. reward. Farmers, farmers are the lifeblood. of any civilized. Thing is right. But if you're looking. Big picture, if you're opposed to. famine and you're. for human flourishing and people, then you'd want to do whatever. You could to have enough. food. I agree. And if country by country.

By country. Germany, Great Britain, Denmark, Holland. They're all. Attacking farmers. United States. Maybe there's a bigger anti-human. agenda at work. Does it do you? I just think there's a it's a pretty. dumb political agenda that's been. pursued. So much is dumb. It's like weird. Yeah. Of all the groups should. attack white farmers. Makes no sense and does. Makes sense, though, doesn't it? Why? Well, clearly, there's an effort to. reduce the human population. If you're if all these. Countries think he's. You wants to starve the Brits and.

kill us. Well, I don't know. You know, you can't assess. The motives of individuals are. unknowable. You're trying to starve the British. people. Okay. I don't know him. I don't know what he's trying to do. I'm sorry. No, no, no, no, no. No, you. Come on. Look around the world. Government after government, after. government around the world. is endorsing policies. that they know will reduce. birthrates, is attacking. agriculture. And is allowing. I don't know, drugs and food that.

kill people and make them less. healthy. So if you add that all up, you don't. have to know their motives. You just look at the effects and. you're like, the effect is to. kill people. What is going on here? Ever wonder that crap. Governance by a. Serious. System around. It's like every country that you. know, we stop, people kill. themselves. Well, how would you ever come up. with that? At a time when we need more people, not less? Yeah. What do you think that is? By governing, I mean. Why is it the same in every country?

Why does. It? The food thing in particular? Look how fat everyone's getting. Right. Right. I mean, fat, lazy, sedentary. And you're like, that can't be good. for anyone. No, but why is it happening? Bad, bad politicians. Why is every. Politician in every Western country. coming to the same set of. policies whose effect is fewer. children, more. unhealthy dead people? Like, well, I mean, you don't have. to be conspiracy not to just say I'm. looking at just the numbers. That is how.

Many kids per family. Drop in. That is the consequence. of all the political actions that. have been taken. I agree. I don't think it's a bad global. conspiracy in the way you might be. infer. Well, I don't I don't know. I don't know. Not saying. Yeah, but I don't. Listen, I know. where you're coming from on this. I don't believe they're actually. smart enough to do that. Then why are they doing it? I think because they're not very. competent and they're not very good. and they're lazy. But when I going a little. Off averages would suggest that, like, I don't know, the governments. of Spain, Belgium,

New Zealand pick another. Mexico would. Adopt the opposite. Policies like we're going to pay you. to have our kids, not one of. Them. Well, I agree with you about. it's wrong and it's got to. change. We need more people, not. less. We need better food, not crap. food. We need to reduce the size. of our human beings. whilst increasing populations. Otherwise, the planet is going. to kill itself in a basically self. employed and die out. As Elon Musk is warning. He's right. I agree with that.

We have we ended in agreement. Well, I just want to know. You're sincere, I think. Good of predictions. How do you think the war in Ukraine. will end? I think it will end. I do think Donald Trump will get a. deal. I do think in the end that. Russia will probably keep most of. the land they've taken. I personally wish that wasn't the. case, but I think that's how this. gets ended. And I hope that Ukraine get enough. guarantees that the rest of their. country won't get taken down the. line. We saw Crimea go.

We've seen the east go pretty much. And I suspect Vladimir Putin, I believe, will try and take the. rest of it. I may be wrong. I hope I'm wrong. I hope it gets a deal gets done. soon because too many people are. dying. I heard the other day that. 100,000 people on that battlefield. died in six weeks. On both sides, collectively, I mean, this is a horrendous has been the. stuff you saw at the Somme. I mean, it's like it's totally. agree. But do you think it's kind of I. Strongly agree with you and. I have for two and a half years. But why is it only now that we're.

getting this sort of more. realistic casualty figures? How could a government fund a war. without knowing how many people died. in that war? You think the Ukrainians have not. been told the truth about it? I think the US and British. governments have both lied about. it and kept those numbers from the. public. And I feel like that's a crime. They should tell the truth. They should be transparent about the. case. It's wrong. I hope you'll go back to Great. Britain and grab them by the throat. and make them tell the truth. You know what? You've made me think.

Go back to Britain and make us. Jolt us into action. What I like about the Trump thing in. the last week. Just the sense of hope. Optimism. Yes, I. Agree. Even before the election, when you. went down to watch one of Elon. Musk's rockets launch. And just the fact that America. is back in the business of going. into space, aiming to go to. the moon, aiming to go to Mars. Yes. Where's that in my country. where it's that kind of dynamism? Where is someone hitting the ground.

with 200 things they want to do? Bang. My, my, my, my, my. You may not agree with all of them, but my God, the energy Trump. is expending, the dynamism, the aspiration, the. the the thing of making America. great again. I got a feeling this. time around Trump's going to have a. very good four years. I'm not so convinced about my. country, and I want to get that kind. of warmth and energy. and dynamism that's in Britain, because I don't disagree with a lot. of the characterization you've had. of we are a country in the doldrums. right now. We are.

And it solves a lot of problems. I think that's really smart. Yeah. You know, the energy, the. attitude, all of it. Why are people doing heroin in the. first place? Why would you want to do it? Because you're hopeless. We have a terrible drug problem. No, I agree. In our country, terrible. You have a bad drug problem. In America and you solve it with. Attitude. Yeah, you do. Piers Morgan, thank you for taking. all the time. I enjoyed it. It's great to see you in Saudi. Arabia. It was doing against. So thank you. Thanks very much. Awesome. Enjoyed it.