Tucker on Trump’s Desecration of Easter and a Warning to Christians Everywhere

Millions of American Christians voted for Donald  Trump when he ran for president in the last. election and millions more Christians around the  world rooted for him to win. Many still do root. for Donald Trump. Now, why is that? Because of  his personal piety? Well, of course not. Trump, to his credit, has never claimed to be personally  pious, especially religious in any sense. They voted for him and they still support him  because he seemed like a protector. He seemed.

like someone who might save them from the  growing and highly aggressive agnosticism. if not atheism of say the technology class  or the bureaucratic class, godless nations, nations of other religions that oppose us.  Donald Trump seemed like someone who would. protect Christians from that, who was committed  to the free exercise of religion in this country. and who was also committed to ending abortion.  Whether or not he himself opposed abortion,

whether he was pro-life in any meaningful sense,  didn't seem to matter. He would appoint justices. that opposed abortion, that thought Roie Wade  was unconstitutional. He did that. And that. he would basically carry the flag for their  issues and that he was sympathetic to them. and they support him on that basis. Can they  still support him? That's the question. And. that's a question Christians should have begun to  ask themselves on January 4th of this year. And.

that was the day that the president announced the  capture, the arrest of the president of Venezuela, Nicholas Maduro, who was no question an  anti-American leader and a socialist, not someone. most Americans liked or really had cause to like.  So the problem is not necessarily that Trump was. against an anti-American leader. In fact, that was  a benefit in the eyes of most of his voters. The. problem was why we did it and why the president  told us he did it and that was for the oil. So,

in the days before that operation in early  January, the president tweeted out, sent out on. his truth social account and also said in public,  "We're doing this because we want the oil because. that oil belongs to the United States." He never  explained how exactly the United States would. own the natural resources of a foreign country.  Apparently, American oil companies helped develop. the oil fields in Venezuela. Therefore, we own the  oil. That was the idea. And they stole it from us.

But there was no real effort to explain how that  works, how that makes any sense at all. Instead, you had the president of the United States say,  "We need the oil. Oil is really important." True. and true. Therefore, we're going to take it. And  therefore, apparently, we did. In the days after. that operation, the successful removal of the  president of the country and the installation of. his vice president Delsei Rodriguez as president,  the our President Donald Trump held a widely.

publicized on camera meeting with the heads of  American oil companies and talked through how. we're going to split up the natural resources  of Venezuela and why this is great for America. So why should Christians have paused at exactly  that moment and asked, "Can I still support this? Is this what I voted for? Is this what I want?  Is this acceptable?" And the reason is really. simple because Trump at that moment revealed  that the motive was taking something that we.

wanted. And that's not acceptable for Christians.  In fact, that's unacceptable for Americans or any. civilized people because taking other people's  stuff by force cannot be allowed. In fact, preventing that is the basis of our legal code. If  there's one thing that every person knows that is. in a civilized country, you can't steal without  penalty. It's not allowed. That doesn't belong. to you. You can't shoplift. You can't rob banks.  You can't embezzle. You can't invade countries to.

steal their stuff because they're all varieties  of the same theme, which is theft. And theft. is wrong. It's wrong under the American legal  code, but it's also wrong under the Christian. legal code. Theft is wrong. Spelled out really  clearly. It's also intuitive. And here was the. president saying, "We're just stealing this  because we can." Well, as a practical matter, that's quite a thing to say out loud, given that  we know from history that the things you do will.

be done unto you. Once you set a standard, you  will have to live by that standard. Write a law, you'll be judged by that law. So if the new law  is I can take it because I want it and I have more. power than you at some point we can rest assured  the tables will be turned and the things that we. want and cherish and have earned and that we own  will be taken from us by force at the moment when. some other power has more force than we do. It's  really simple. sometimes called the law of the.

jungle and it may be the law of nature but people  don't want to live under that law because it is a. brutal and unforgiving law. So they create higher  laws or they appeal to the highest law of all. which is God's law which prohibits that. So this  was a profound moment in American history probably. in the history of the modern world where the most  powerful nation said if we want it we'll take it.

No one's ever said that before. Now, they've done  it under the guise of ideology. They've made up. stories to hide the fact they're doing it. But  to say you're doing it implicates everybody else. in the crime. You can't say you didn't know.  Your president just told you on television, "We took out their president cuz we want his  oil." And at that point, you're an accessory to. the crime whether you want to be or not. And it's  at that point that a lot of people should have. spoken up and said, "I'm out." Not that I hate  Trump or don't like his entire program. Lots of.

things about it I love. I'm grateful. I maybe  vote for him again. But I can't support theft. because it's immoral. But they didn't. Maybe some  did. But certainly the leaders of the American. Christian churches by and large said absolutely  nothing. And maybe because they said nothing, this accelerated. These are the same people who  sort of didn't notice somehow that on inauguration.

day, the president did not take his his oath of  office with his hand on the Bible. His wife stood. next to him holding it. I was about 15 ft away and  saw it, but he did not put his hand on the Bible. And that should have been maybe a clue that we  need to pause and think about. What is this? Why. wouldn't you put your hand on the Bible? If you  don't believe in the Bible, you think it's just. a book. There's no cost to you to putting your  hand on it. Just kind of following the protocol,

going along with the tradition. All presidents do  it. Why aren't you doing it? And you're not doing. it intentionally. You're choosing not to put your  hand on the Bible when you take that oath. That. suggests not that you don't believe it's real.  Because if you didn't believe it was real, why. would you care? You'd put on the costume and take  it off. Doesn't matter. That suggests you know it. is real and you're rejecting it intentionally.  You know what you're doing and you're doing it.

anyway. But nobody asked questions about that  either. Seemed kind of inappropriate given the. celebration then in progress to ask why wouldn't  you put your hand in the Bible when you take the. oath of office to lead our nation? But pretty much  nobody did. I didn't. I'll admit that. I saw it. and didn't say one word. Bothered me ever since.  But right around January 4th, it became clear that. maybe he didn't put his hand on the Bible because  he affirmatively rejects what's inside that book.

And what's inside that book are limits on human  behavior. Because if there's one theme that spans. all 66 books in the Christian Bible, it's that  you are not God and you cannot assume his powers. because you don't have them. You may convince  yourself you have them. You may want them. You may. have been promised them. But in the end, they're  not yours and you'll never have them. And you can. only destroy yourself and the people around you  by pretending that you do. That is the consistent.

message that spans from Genesis to Revelation. And  people who ignore that law are punished just like. people who ignore gravity or freezing temperatures  are punished because these are laws that were not. created by people. They supersede people. But  on January 4th, when the president of the United. States told us he was stealing, that our country  was stealing something that didn't belong to us, people should have piped up and said something.  But they didn't. And that got us all the way to.

yesterday, which was Easter Sunday. Easter Sunday  is not just a holy day on the Christian calendar. It is the center of the Christian calendar.  is the holiest day in Christian life because. it's the day that Christians remember the whole  point of their religion which is not that Jesus. was killed but that he rose from the dead that he  beat death unique in history and this is the day. that Christians celebrate his resurrection  and in this country that celebration's been.

watered down effectively to candy and Easter  bunnies but globally and certainly historically. Easter is the focus it's preceded by Holy  Week and Lent 40 days of self-denial and. prayer prayer all leading up to yesterday,  Easter morning. And for faithful Christians, it is still the biggest day of the year. And it's  a day of joy. The thing every person fears most. is death. We're born fearing it because we're  born knowing it's coming. And Christianity,

unique among religions, promises victory over  it. And Jesus's resurrection is proof that God. can beat death because only God creates life. And  so the morning of Easter is a uniquely joyful and. peaceful moment. And yet that peace yesterday  was shattered. That's not an overstatement. It. was shattered for many observant Christians by  a statement that the president of the United. States put out at 8:03 a.m. Eastern time on  Easter morning that said this, and we're going. to read it in its entirety, not in outrage or  self-righteousness, but honestly in horror. Quote,

"Tuesday will be power plant day and bridge  day all wrapped up in one in Iran. There will. be nothing like it." Three exclamation points.  Open the [ __ ] straight, you crazy bastards, or you'll be living in hell. Just watch. All caps.  Praise be to Allah. President Donald J. Trump.

Now, a lot of people reading that imagined, of  course, this can't be real. Did the president. of the United States really just write that?  And it is real. It is maybe the most real thing. this president has ever done and also the most  revealing on every level. It is vile on every. level. It begins with a promise to use the US  military, our military, to destroy civilian.

infrastructure in another country, which is to say  to commit a war crime, a moral crime against the. people of the country whose welfare, by the way,  was one of the reasons we supposedly went into. this war in the first place. They're being killed  by their government. We have to rescue them. And. now here's our president not even a month and a  half into the conflict which we are not winning. by the way because the straightforward moves are  not open. There's one way to keep track. That's. the measurement saying that we're going to use  our military to kill the civilians of this country.

who didn't choose the war. They got nothing to do  with it. They're like civilians everywhere. Blow. up their bridges. Bridges on military bases. No,  no, no. Just bridges. bridges that people cross. every day to go to school and work and to worship  and yes, church because there are over a million. Christians in Iran. This is their Easter, too.  And power plants. Not the power plants attached to. missile factories. Okay. But civilian power plants  in a country of almost 100 million people. What.

happens when a modern country and a country that  has a nuclear program as a modern country? Sorry, Iran is a modern country. What happens when it  loses power? Well, people die. Babies connected to. incubators die. People in hospitals die. And those  that those are the first level effects. And then. people begin to starve. And then you have refugee  crises. People leave the cities looking for food.

And then yes, they move into other countries in  the region, in Europe, in the United States. You. cause chaos and death, mass suffering and death  when you do that. And we have done that. We have. intentionally bombed civilian infrastructure in  Iran. It's totally unacceptable. Not under the the. phony laws of some international body, but under  moral law, God's law, killing non-combatants, people who did nothing wrong, who didn't choose  this war, who were just people created by God,

that is immoral. That will never be moral. That  can never be justified. That is always wrong. It can be expedient. We need to do this. It  doesn't mean it's right. It's the most wrong. thing. And we should always remember that what we  do will be done to us. Live by the destruction of. civilian infrastructure. Live by the killing  of children, the bombing of elementary schools.

and colleges, and you will die and your children  will die by those same things. That's just a fact. That's never not been true. We don't want it to  be true. It's the last thing we want to be true, but it is nonetheless true. And everyone knows  that on an animal level, you can feel that that's. true. Ooh. Shouldn't do that. You'll be punished  for it in this life or the next or maybe both. For the president to say that and not bother to  tell us, oh, it was an accident we did this. Well,

one, it makes you reassess the bombing of the  girls school attached to the IRGC naval base. where the children of Iranian military officers  were incinerated in a bombing. Not one, but two, a double tap. Every person has assumed that was  a mistake. No American could ever believe the US. government would do that on purpose. I still don't  believe it. But after this, you have to kind of. wonder how did that happen? Was it bad targeting  coordinates given to us? We hope by Israel,

another country. Maybe it wasn't. Who knows? At  this point, for the president to call for that, it's worth stopping and saying, "No, this is not  acceptable under any circumstances. You haven't. justified it. You couldn't justify it and it can't  be done in our name." And the point of course is. to get the Iranians to open the straight of  Hormuz. Well, no sane person thinks that's.

going to work. At which point you have to ask, why  would we do it anyway? Well, there are a bunch of. possible reasons. But the darkest of all is for  the sake of doing it. For the sake of killing, for the sake of exercising the most obvious  form of power, which is extinguishing life? That's why we're doing it. The thrill is in  the killing. The power is in the killing. The. exertion of force is the point. You don't want to  think that. But after a message like this, what.

could possibly be the reason? There's nobody who  thinks that if we do this, and we pray we don't, for our sake, as well as the sake of non-combatant  innocent Iranians, nobody thinks this is going to. work. But then the tweet continues. Pardon  me. The ironically named truth continues, "There will be nothing like it. Open the effing  straight." How dare you speak that way on Easter.

morning to the country? Who do you think you are?  You're tweeting out the f- word on Easter morning. You'll be living in hell as if hell is  a place. Hell is a condition. And this. is an example of that condition.  Just watch. Praise be to Allah. So obviously you're mocking the religion  of Iran. Okay. If you seek a religious war,

that's a good idea. But by the way, no decent  person mocks other people's religions. You may. have a problem with the theology. Presumably  you do if it's not your religion. And you can. explain what that is. But to mock other people's  faith is to mock the idea of faith itself. And we. should never mock that because at its core is the  acknowledgement that we are not in charge of the. universe. We did not build it. We won't be here  at the end of it. We can destroy life. We cannot.

create it because we are not God. The message  of all faith at the biggest picture level is the. message in our Bible which is you are not God. And  only if you think you are do you talk this way. But it's not just mockery of Islam.  And no president should mock Islam. That's not your job. This is not  a theocracy. We don't go to war. with other theocracies to find out which  theocracy is more effective. We are not.

a theocracy. And God willing, we never will  be because theocracies corrupt the religion. No, this is a mockery not just of Islam. It's  a mockery of Christianity. to send out a tweet. with the f-word on Easter morning promising the  murder of civilians and then saying praise be to. Allah without explaining any of it. You are  mocking me and every other Christian because. we're Christians. Oh, I get it. We can't support  that. Under no circumstances can we support that.

Doesn't mean you have to hate Trump or take the  opposite position on every issue from Trump. You. shouldn't. A lot of his positions are the right  positions, but you cannot support that. That is. evil. That is an intentional desecration of beauty  and truth, which is the definition of evil. And. you have to ask where does evil lead? If the core  point of evil is to destroy, which it is, God.

creates, Satan destroys. It's dualism. When you  see something of beauty being created, when you. hear the truth being spoken, you are witnessing a  manifestation of God's power. And when you see the. opposite, you're witnessing the opposite. So where  does this lead? Well, on a practical level and a. spiritual level, they converge in the same place,  which is the use of weapons of mass destruction. So on a practical level, on a strategic level,  if you're at the Pentagon gaming this out,

like how does this work? The president of United  States keeps laying down markers, you can't go. past next Tuesday at 2 p.m. or whatever. You must  open the straight or else you'll be living in. hell. As if we're not there already. In a certain  point, what we're doing is revealing that we've. exhausted conventional power. If there's some  tricky way to open the straight of Hormuz by air,

probably would have done it by now because we  are on a path to plunge the world into global. depression and famine. And that's not hair on  fire panakinism. That's math. 30% of the world's. fertilizer, 20% of its energy. Yeah, that's a  global depression and famine. What happens to. Africa? A billion and a half subsaharan Africans  without enough fertilizer. Well, a lot of them. will be living in the United States. That's just  going to happen. It's right across the Atlantic.

Ocean. Check a map. So, getting the straight open  is the essence of the mission. It is the strategic. goal. By the way, not to be bitter, it was open  on February 27th and had been for, you know, since there were pirates roaming the straight for  modern history been open. Now it's closed because. of this war. Okay, so there's that. But leave  that aside. Okay, that was then. How do we get it. open? Conventional air strikes will not open the  straight for very obvious reasons. You can close.

it with mines. So if you reach the end of your  conventional power, where does that leave you? Oh, with non-conventional power. What's that a  euphemism for? Nuclear weapons. And the effects of. that hardly need to be explained. Well, they can't  be fully known because modern nuclear weapons have. never been used, but you can just draw obvious  conclusions like life in Iran not possible.

So you wipe out a country of 92 million people.  What about directly across the Persian Gulf? What. about the seven other countries? All of them  allies of the United States, the biggest oil. producing countries in the world. Could you live  there? What about the 100red odd million people. who live in those countries? Maybe not possible  for them either. Would a nuclear strike be. followed by peace? Probably not. The US isn't the  only country in the world with nuclear weapons.

You could have a global nuclear war. That's why  we haven't used nuclear weapons in 80 years. No. one has because you don't know where it goes from  there. This is insane. Okay, this is insane. It's. It's hard to believe you even need to say this  out loud. Oh, but you do because all things being. equal, that's where we're heading. And how do  we know that? Well, there are a million signs, but the most obvious is the dumbest neocons  in Trump's orbit are saying it out loud. Now,

in some cases, you don't even want to mention  their names because these are not decision makers. These people are very much like Jeffrey Epstein.  They're not actually the evil mastermind. Jeffrey. Epste is kind of an idiot. He's an employee.  Obviously, he's a communications hub. He's a way. to get the message out to your people. And it's  the same with America's most prominent neocons. They're not making policy. They don't understand  anything. They don't have huge audiences. They.

have no organic power. They're messengers and  flack takers. They're the ones who get the abuse. for the policies of others. Put some lunatic on  TV. Everyone can hate him. But is he coming up. with the plan? No, of course not. He's got a  weekend show on Fox. But it's useful to watch. what he says. In fact, the president of the United  States himself has said this. Watch Mark Levin on. Saturday night. You think Trump is dumb? Think  there. You think he's doing this to juice Mark.

Leavven's ratings? No. It's not possible to  increase the ratings of someone nobody wants. to watch. The point is to send a message.  That's not a conspiracy theory. It's true. The Levvin show written probably not by Levvin  which has almost no viewers has been a place. where the future is revealed in its broadest  outline. It's a place to test ideas. It's a place.

to announce obliquely what's going to happen. And  his most recent show should get you sitting bolt. upright in your chair. And yes, this rand this  weekend, Easter weekend, is if the defiling of. beauty couldn't be more obvious. Easter week,  could you pick another weekend to give the. finger to Christianity other than Easter weekend?  Apparently not. In fact, of course, you couldn't. That's the point. Do it on Easter. Anyone who will  accept this will accept any humiliation. In any.

case, here's what Mark Levvin said on his Easter  weekend show about what we ought to do next in. Iran. Watch. And the casualty numbers as horrible  as any casualty is need some context. Let's look. at World War II. The Battle of the Bulge. 80,000  to 90,000 plus casualties, deaths and injuries. and so forth. Nearly 10% of all the casualties in  World War II happened at the Battle of the Bulge.

near the end of the war. The Battle of Okinawa,  50,000 plus casualties, over 12,000, nearly 13,000. killed on that island, which is what convinced  Truman that we would lose a million men if we. didn't drop the atomic bombs that we did. This is  a war or a peace mission to stop nuclear weapons. that can blow away millions of Americans every bit  as important as World War II. This is a crucially.

important military operation war, call it what  you want, peace mission, and we ought to be. celebrating the success of our military, unifying  Iran, our military and our commander-in-chief and. urging them to complete the task so our country  is safe from nuclear weapons by insane suicidal. primitives from the seventh century. Did you catch  that? Did you make it through the whole clip? It's.

not easy. It's not easy. But embedded in there,  and that's why we prefer a transcript over the. actual audio. Embedded in there is something  you need to know. It's an argument that is being. testdriven. And since no one to our knowledge has  pushed back against it, may be in full operation. Now, it's an argument for nuclear weapons against  Iran. Here's to restate, in case you couldn't. make it through the accent, here's what he said.  Nearly 10% of all casualties in the Second World. War happened at the Battle of the Bulge, which  of course is the end of the war. The Battle of.

Okinawa, 50,000 casualties, nearly 13,000 killed  on that island, which is what convinced Truman, Harry Truman, the then president, 1945, we'd  lose a million men if we didn't drop the atomic. bombs that we did. Did you hear that? That's Mark  Leven's council to our sitting president, Donald. Trump. Right now you are looking at a choice  between the catastrophic loss of your troops in. a ground war or the use of nuclear weapons which  in a sense if you think about it just think about.

it for a second is actually an act of peace. It's  an act of peace. The most humane thing you could. do is to end this now with nuclear weapons.  That's the case Mark Leavvin is making to the. president who just last week recommended that  all Americans watch Mark Leavvin's show. Okay, this is not like crazy dot connecting here. This  is one to one. This is really obvious where we're.

moving. And again, we're moving toward the use  of weapons of indiscriminate mass destruction, possibly nuclear weapons, but nonconventional  weapons, not bombs dropped from the air or. missiles launched from launchers, but the use  of weapons that have never been used in war. ever. And the argument is the same argument that  you heard in 1945 or didn't hear. By the way, if you're an American civilian, no one ever cuts  you in on this. Thank heaven for Mark Leven saying.

it out loud so the rest of us can at least follow  along and know what we're in for and implicated. in. But the argument that it's actually much  more humane to kill tens, hundreds of thousands, millions of civilians than it is to like fight it  out with the Marine Corps on the rocky shores of. mainland Iran. That's the argument. But it's not  just the argument that one guy in cable news is. making. It is the logic of escalation in this  war because in some sense Mark Levin is right.

We are not going to open the straits with the  United States Marine Corps. The 82nd Airborne. or the tier one operators that everyone on cable  knows news seems to know so much about the tier. one operators. Tier one just guys like some of the  best guys actually in America could be killed in. this. That's a better way to put it. It's a more  real way to put it. They are not going to open the. straight. And so unless somebody puts the brakes  on right away, we're going to wind up in a place.

that we can't even imagine, not just Iran, us and  the rest of the world. And so that means, cuz this. is obvious to anyone who's paying any attention,  that if you work in the White House or in the US. military, now is time to say no. Absolutely  not. And say directly to the president, no. In case you're thinking about using some weapon of  mass destruction against the population of Iran, in whose name we liberated Iran, we killed  their religious leader for their benefit. Do you. remember that? This was last month. Those people  who are in direct contact with the president need.

to say no. I'll resign. I'll do whatever I can do  legally to stop this because this is insane. And. if given the order, I'm not carrying it out.  Figure out the codes on the football yourself. because everything hangs in the ballots right  now. This is not hysteria. This is 100% real. And yet the people in this country by and large  are sleepwalking along. No, the future will be.

pretty much like today maybe a little different.  That's not the lesson of history. Things change. fast and forever. There are pivot points where  nothing is the same. Sometimes it's better, but mostly it's not. And this is one of those  cases where it might not be at all better. But. there's something else to think about. Something  maybe even more important than whether we have a. nuclear war. What could be more important than  that? Well, your soul, the way we worship God, whether we acknowledge God or not, that's more  important ultimately than anything else. And.

you have to think through like, could there be  a spiritual component to what we're watching? Is it just a conventional escalation ladder in a  badly thoughtout war with ill-defined goals and. we just wound up in this really tough place  where we face either humiliation on the one. side or a nuc you know a nuclear launch on the  other? That's yeah that's part of what it is. But could it be something bigger than that? Is  it possible that what you're watching is a very.

stealthy yet incredibly effective attack on what  from a Christian perspective is the true faith. belief in in Jesus. Is that what really is under  attack here? Is that's what maybe that's what's. been under attack for a long time. Maybe our  whole lifetime. Maybe almost everything we see. is an attack on that faith. The one faith that is  always attacked always and everywhere for 2,000.

years is one. Many faiths have been attacked. Many  religious people of different religions have been. killed over the past 2,000 years. But there's  been only one sustained effort to exterminate. a faith and that's the Christian faith. Could  that be part of it? And is it possible that. the president sees us not just in geostrategic  terms and military terms and economic terms got. to open the straight? Okay. Is it possible the  president sees us in bigger terms? Sees us as.

the fulfillment of something or the elevation  to some higher office beyond president of the. United States. That's entirely possible. And  that's not an attack, but it's also not a guess. because at every turn since the inauguration last  January, there have been religious leaders on the. scene telling us telling us out loud. Most of us  ignored it cuz we're just so secular. We just sort.

of ignore it. Got some sleazy Southern Baptist  preacher who says whatever for money. Okay, got it. We've ignored that this could actually  be real. There's something going on here. And we shouldn't ignore that. We should always  remember that just because we are a secular. nation, have been overwhelmingly secular, maybe  not coincidentally, since we dropped those atom. bombs 80 years ago, doesn't mean that we live in  a world where everyone else is secular. And it.

definitely doesn't mean that the spiritual realm  has been eliminated, that is not real, that the. only things that matter are the things that we  can see and hear and feel and taste and measure. Talk about fake. Talk about a silly religion.  That's the silly religion. In real life, in the life that every person lives, no  matter what your religion or lack of it, there is a daily recurring experience of the  transcendent things you cannot explain or.

see or touch or feel or taste or measure. That is  every bit as real. In fact, may be determinative. Maybe the most important things in your life  are the things you don't fully understand. All of us know that. And so when people start  making reference to mystical religious principles. that we don't understand, it doesn't mean  that it's fake. They may be getting it wrong, but it doesn't mean there's not something real at  the center of this. Of course, there is. And only.

a civilization as breath of spiritual language as  ours wouldn't pick up on that immediately. What do. you mean, praise be to Allah? What does that mean?  Why are you sending this out on Easter morning? I mean, obviously, it's designed to offend and  degrade and defile. Got it. But is there something. else going on here? One of the keys to this is  the behavior of a woman called Paula White. And. in a moment, we're going to speak to a man who  studies her, who went to her church yesterday. called Nathan Abfeld. fascinating conversation  with him which we just finished where he tries.

to understand who are these people encouraging the  president of the United States to see himself as. a millennialist figure as part of the esquetology  of like part of the end time story who are these. people who are encouraging the rebuilding of the  third temple in Jerusalem whatever that is like. what is this is this Christianity is it something  else and he knows a lot about it and it's a. fascinating conversation that I hope that you will  But at the center of this is the most unlikely.

person of all. A ludicrous figure. Someone who's  so absurd on one level that it's impossible to. take this person seriously. That would be Paula  White, the president's spiritual adviser. And. because she's so self-evidently not worth taking  seriously, most people don't and they just tune. it right out. Who cares what she says? What does  it have to do with the economy, oil prices, GDP, reopening the straight? I don't know. Maybe  you should listen a little more carefully. So, here's one example. This is something that Paula  White said about the president right before.

this recent escalation during Holy Week at the  White House, a gathering to which many American. Protestant leaders, big ones, Franklin Graham  included, were invited and they gave a blessing. to Donald Trump as he accelerated this war against  the civilian population of Iran. Here's what she. said about Donald Trump. Watch this. Jesus taught  us so many lessons through his death, burial,

and resurrection. He showed us great leadership,  great transformation requires great sacrifice. And. Mr. President, no one has paid the price like you  have paid the price. So true. It almost cost you. your life. You were betrayed and arrested. and  falsely accused. It's a familiar pattern that.

our Lord and Savior showed us. But it didn't  end there for him and it didn't end there for. you. It's hard to believe that's real. That is  so vile. It's such a sacrilege standing in front. of American flags in the White House with some  kind of beta evangelical leader nodding along. as you liken the president of the United States  to Jesus, the Christian Messiah, God in human. form. How could you say something like that? How  could the rest of us sit by and not protest when.

she said something like that? How could any  Christian watch that and not feel revulsion? Well, because people didn't pay attention or  they didn't think about it. Oh, it's just the. praise that Trump demands. Fine. Not the first  vain president, not the first vain leader, that's for certain. But to compare him or any  president to Jesus, has got to be a deal killer.

That is the end. You cannot allow that in good  faith. If you're a Christian, you have to say. no to that. Doesn't matter whether you voted for  Trump, campaigned for Trump across many states, defended him for 10 years, still like him, doesn't  matter. You cannot compare a president, a secular. president of the United States or anybody,  any human being to Jesus. Why? Well, because. again it is sacrilege primmaaccia, but because it  distorts who Jesus is. It is a lie about Jesus.

Did Jesus command the disciples to go out and kill  people? Where in the New Testament is that? Well, most people probably don't even know because  they don't read it because their understanding. of Christianity comes filtered through people  like Paula White and Franklin Graham and many. others of varying levels of good faith or  maybe entirely good faith, but they don't.

read it themselves. Kind of weird if you think  about it. It's a great story. You don't have. to believe in it to enjoy it, to learn from it,  to love it actually. And if you're a believer, you need to read it. And it's not hard to  read it. By the way, it's on Amazon.com. Try this New Living Translation, NLT. Just a  probably the most modern colloquial English. translation of the Bible. Easiest to read.  It's great. It's $430 on Amazon delivered. to your house. NLT. Just read it. Just read  the four gospels. You don't have to believe.

it. What do you think of that? What's the picture  that emerges? Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Just. four stories about Jesus from slightly different  perspectives. Is the man that you read about, the Messiah you read about recognizable as you  listen to these people talk about him? Does he. send his disciples out to kill? Well, let I'll  answer the question, having just read them. No,

he sends them out to be killed. He says to them,  "Go out. Tell the truth. The world will hate you. for it. Take no weapon. Take no food. Take no  money. Take no talking points. I'm not even going. to tell you what to say. just tell the truth.  God will speak through you. Totally unprepared. Doesn't give them a map. Doesn't give them a  plan of any kind. And he gives them no defense. And he says point blank again and again, you could  be killed for this. Probably will be. In fact, they all were. So far as we know, they were  all killed. That's the Christian message. Now,

you may think that that's absurd. Many  have. Nisha was revolted by it. Get it? But that is what Jesus said. He did not  say bomb the bridges and the hospitals. and the power plants to what? Bring my  kingdom. No, he said just the opposite. If you want to change the world, you cannot kill.  It doesn't work anyway. It never works. You have.

to be willing to be killed. You have to lay down  your life. And that is the message. Do you think. God couldn't come and throw the Romans out of  Jerusalem? Oh yeah, of course. He chose the. opposite. He chose to submit to them. Why? Because  in that submission is victory over death. That's. the true victory. That's the whole story right  there. And anyone who perverts that is doing a.

grave crime against the faith itself. And that  actually matters. You can argue about all kinds. of points of doctrine and transubstantiation  and a million things you can argue about and. Christians have argued about them for 2,000 years.  But you can't argue that Jesus sends his people, God's people, his disciples, out to kill.  He sends them to do the opposite thing, to die. And they do. And the world is transformed  because they did. That's the message. And anyone.

preaching the opposite gospel of any Christian  denomination is saying something vile and. dangerous and should be called out for saying  it because the message is not of conquering, it's of submission. Put your hand on the Bible  when you take that oath because in doing that.

you acknowledge, I am submitting to a law greater  than myself. My own desire, my own whims, my will. is not the final word. There is a limit to what  you can do. And that limit is set not by you or. any other person, but by God. That's what that  means. Submit. There is time to fix this. There is. time to prevent whatever is coming next. Whether  it's the murder of civilians and children by air.

or whether it's something even worse than that.  There is time to fix it. All is not lost. But. the first step, and this is also the first step  toward faith, is submission. There are things I. want to do that I will intentionally not do. I  will submit to a law higher than my own desire. That's the first step towards civilization. And it  is the first and absolutely mandatory step toward.

averting the true disaster that is coming. And  we pray that the president will take that step. and that those around him will take that step  because everything hangs in the balance. And. with that, here is our conversation with Nathan  Appfell. So, thank you for doing this. Yeah, thanks for having um I think you will unravel  many mysteries. I'd never heard of Paula White.

I ran into Paula White for the first time, heard  her name for the first time, and I ran into her. in person at right outside the Oval Office  last winter, right after the inauguration, and she introduced herself to me and said, "I'm  the head of the religious liberty commission or. something." And I remember thinking, "I'm so glad  there is such a thing cuz we need it. We need. religious liberty almost more than anything." And  I said, I felt moved to say just like escaped from. my lips. Thank you. And I really hope that you  will do something to protect the Christians of. the Middle East, particularly in the Levant. there  are a lot of great Christians there and they're.

being hurt and nobody seems to care and she like  recoiled. I remember thinking she doesn't like. this at all. That was my first and only experience  with Paula White and so I've wondered ever since. Paula White and how did she become the president's  main spiritual advisor? You told me this morning. that you went to church on Easter Sunday which was  yesterday at her church. Mhm. And so before you. give us the overview, can you just describe what  that was like? It was a interesting experience.

You know, when you see Paula on stage next to  Trump, or you see any big evangelical leader, Kenneth Copeland, Franklin Graham, you you'd  expect their church to be massive. You know, thousands and thousands of people. They're  pastors. They have a church. They're pastoring. people there. Shepherds. Exactly. They're the  shepherd. Yeah. And so, um, we pull up and. I expected a very big building. Where is it?  It is in Apopka, I think I'm saying it right, Florida. So, just north of Orlando. Okay. And I've  been to Joel Ostein's church, you know, thousands,

tens of thousands of seats. I've been to Second  Baptist. 93,000 members in that church. I know big. church, right? It looked like a um one of those  metal sheds, you know, one of those big like 5,000. foot. It looked like an airplane hanger basically.  And I was like, this is just awkward. It was the. parking lot probably fit 50 cars. And so it was  just an overflow in a dirt lot. This this is a. good size like setting for you. They just had a  simple coffee maker, like a standard pot coffee.

for their entire congregation. And so I walked in,  I counted about 400 chairs. And when I got there, which was the time the service started, there  was seven people sitting on Easter Sunday. Easter. Sunday. And so we walked in, they put us two  rows from the stage. Uh, and ironically, Paula's. daughter-in-law approached me and I was there  with my girlfriend and she approaches us and goes,

"Who who are you?" And I'm wearing a floral shirt,  yellow sunglasses, and an Alabama hat. Like, I try to be awkward in these situations. And she  comes straight up and she goes, "I'm Paula White's. daughter-in-law." And I'm like, "I'm Nathan. I  don't I don't hide who I am." And she's like, "Would you take a photo in front of our Easter  display?" And I'm like, "Sure." And so I walk over. and Paul White's daughter-in-law is taking a photo  of me and I'm like, "Okay, can we get it?" And I. wouldn't be surprised if it's on their Instagram  this morning cuz it was for like their Instagram.

Um, so we go in, we sit down and it packs out to  about 200 people on an Easter Sunday. One of the. the two biggest Christmas and Easter are the two  biggest holidays for Christianity. 200 people show. up to this thing, mostly African-Americans.  I was one of six white people. And then you. got this white woman on stage and that was the  setting. That's her church. Her church. Yeah. Don't get me wrong, they got the lights and the  the fog machine and the jib arm that flies over.

the crowd. It's a production studio is what I  would call it. Production stage. So the point. is not to minister to the people in the church,  take care of their problems, counsel them, bring. them closer to Jesus. The point is to produce a  TV show. Is that what you're saying? That's what. I would say. Same similar to Joel Ostein, he's a  TV producer by trade. You know, Kenneth Copelan, same thing. When I went to Kenneth's church, it  was very small. Sat maybe four or 500 people and. it was a massive studio with multiple jib arms,  multiple cameras, security, massive stage. I I.

produced TV like they're they produce TV. Yeah.  That's fascinating. Mhm. So, did she preach? No, her son preached. Yes. Uh so, she got up and gave  a little message in the morning, a little prayer. Um, and there was a really weird dynamic between  her and her son. Um, and I've got I've got their. bylaws which I think explain why. But, uh,  her son gave and g and got up and g honestly. a really sound message. Like I give a shout out to  Brad. Like that dude knows the Bible. And it was.

very interesting to me because I saw him visibly  wrestling with this idea of shephering and then. the idea of the institution. And there was times  where he would look at his mom and just throw. daggers at her about corruption, power. It was  it was a very interesting dynamic. And she would. she would belittle him too. It was it was it was  wild. During the service. Yeah. Yeah. During the. on Easter Sunday. On Easter Sunday. And then she  once he finished the service the sermon which hey. Brad sermon until the very end because then he's  like I don't want to do an altra call but I'm a.

charismatic so I have to do an altar call. And  I'm like well you don't have to do an alter call. if you what's an altra call? It's basically  him saying, "Hey, if you're not a Christian, come down to the stage. You're going to say,  "Jesus is my savior. I'm a sinner." And boom, you're a Christian. And um that's a relatively  new technique in Christianity. You know, 200 years ago, altra calls were not a thing. And  so altra calls are just a kind of a new tool that. churches use to read metrics, you know, because  at the end of the day, how are we performing? Oh, here's how many salvations we've had and how many  baptisms we've had. And so he's not for the altar.

call, but you can tell he's wrestling with the  institution that his mom gave him. Um, and then. after the altar call, she got up and I I'll quote  her here. She goes, "I'm going to speak for 60. seconds." She spoke for 8 and 1/2 minutes. I have  the recording how to give her money. And uh yeah, she did an 8 and 1/2 minute money pitch in church.  Correct. Yeah. At the end, what did she say? She. said um in she had an envelope and she goes, "My  son moved me so much in this envelope. I have.

a sacrificial gift for him in this church." She  didn't tell us what it was or how much it was. And. she goes, "Well, if I could, I'd sell my house,  but I can't sell my home." Why? I don't know. I I. I would ask her the same thing. And she goes, "I  have shoes and jewelry, but I can't sell those. And so, this is my sacrifice." And then she looked  out and she goes, "You guys need to sacrifice.". She goes, "That nice Easter dress you're wearing,  your sacrifice should be more than that dress.".

And she goes, "Christ was the sacrifice and the  offering and the tithe, but that doesn't mean. it stops with Christ." Oh, this is a hard cell.  Hard cell. So, you need to sacrifice. Jesus died, so send me money. Mhm. Well, and then it was cute.  She goes, she goes, "Oh, and you know, we do so. much for the community, which they do things for  the community." She goes, "We we do a food pantry. and we give away food." Well, you don't pay for  that food. that food is delivered to the church. and then the church distributes it. So you're  raising money for a food pantry that you have,

but you don't have to buy the food. And so it's  it's it's the carrot. I always say churches will. use a carrot or organizations will use a carrot to  get you to give. And out of your gift, let's say. it's a hundred carrots that they get and they're  going to use that one carrot to kind of dangle. in front of your face. Did you get a sense that  Paul White was leading like any kind of pastoral. care? You know, people have problems in churches  as in everywhere else. And one of the main jobs. of a pastor is to be the shepherd for that flock,  right? It sounds like her daughter-in-law likes to.

do that. Um, charismatics are very charismatic,  you know, so she prays in tongues and, you know, they do all that. So, they're very into that. But  Paula walked in after the service started. I saw. her come in and she walked out before it left or  before it ended and she left. Actually, oh, yeah. Yeah. There's I wouldn't say there's any on-site  shephering that Paula does. So, who is Paula White. exactly? and pardon my ignorance, but it's just  she's become this figure. She's one of the people. who prayed over the president um and encouraged  this war with Iran. Um a country with over a.

million Christians in it. Uh but she's like played  a role in our foreign policy. So I think it's. worth and of of course she's been used uh and has  allowed herself to be used to justify this war and. violence in the name of Jesus. So, I think it's  worth asking like who where did she come from? Who. is this person? I don't know her upbringing,  but I'll start with this. I will give Paula. the benefit of the doubt that she came into the  church space wanting to do good. Yes, she wanted.

to save souls. She wanted to preach the gospel.  I believe that. But I also believe I think that's. a that's we should always extend that benefit  of the doubt to people. Okay. So when you when. you when she's presenting that gospel, she has to  play in a certain legal realm, which is religious. institutions, corporations in America, I firmly  stand on my word that that legal architecture. will corrupt anybody that goes into the mission or  that ministry full-time. So she started a church.

in Tampa called Without Walls with her husband  Randy Knight. Um, I went to the building Saturday. cuz I wanted to see where that was. So I drove up  to Tampa and uh now it's a it's a bar. It's like a. um restaurant bar. And so I went the church is a  bar. Well, so I went in and talked to the uh the. restaurant. I'm like, "Hey, was this Paul White's  church without walls?" And the manager was like, "Yeah." So he's like, "We get this question a lot  actually," which is fascinating. So, I don't know.

the the financial exchange or the or the real  estate side of things, but the the original. Without Walls church was bulldozed and then that  restaurant bar was built on the property. Um, so she and her husband started a church in  Tampa. They started a church in Tampa called. Without Walls. Um, there's some scandal wrapped  around that church. Uh, they they used to work. or they're very loudly talking about how they work  in prostitution. They help prostitutes. They help. the needy in that area. Um, and so I talked with a  past employee who said that and and we're getting.

the tapes right now. We found some old VHS tapes  from Paula back in the day. So those are actually. just they just arrived in my house. Very excited  to look at those. Um, but they said, "Oh, there's. a a rundown hotel on the property next to us. We  bought that hotel. We're going to turn it into a. rehab facility for prostitutes and drug addicts,  and that's going to be our main witness." Awesome. I that's right where I think Christ would be  is hanging out with the hurting, the needy, the prostitute, the widowed. Yeah. Um and so they  started raising money uh for this hotel that they.

had built and uh they raised I don't know have the  exact amount but hundreds of thousands of dollars. and some of their congregants mortgaged their  homes for it. Well, come to find out they never. even bought the hotel. This was just all theory  and a good intentioned idea. Um and so that really. crippled the church and at the same time um her  husband kind of I'll just say fell off the wagon. and uh so they got divorced and her spiritual  adviser was TD Jake. Do you know who TD? Yes,

I've met TD Jake. So her spiritual ad famous black  preacher built like a linebacker. Yep. Huge. Yeah. Yep. He was uh her spiritual adviser. He was also  another pastor's spiritual adviser in Opakapka. And um unfortunately that pastor in Opka um oded  in a bathtub and on drugs. On drugs. Yeah. And. uh he was with a prostitute. The prostitute made  the call, the emergency call. He died. And so TD.

Jake as without walls is crumbling. TD Jake as the  spiritual adviser tells Paula to go take over this. church in Opak Opka. So Paulite moves to Apakka,  takes over that church, which they rebranded to. Story Life Church, and that became her home  church. Wow, that's quite a story. So then. then what happens? She gets remarried or she's  remarried to one of the band members of Journey, that awesome band that I love to listen to. Yeah.  So he plays piano for her on stage, you know, as.

she preaches. It's a great husband wife duo. Yeah.  So, she now, well, she did pastor this church. Um, she's since passed it down to her son, Brad  Knight. And why did she pass it down? Because. she became a special government employee under  Trump and you can't run a church. You can't write. I believe the rule is you can't run a nonprofit  um or you can't be raising money outside. So,

I don't want to judge her as a person. There's a  lot written about her personal life. I don't know, you know, what is true and what is not true. So  I I don't want to repeat it, but it's I mean it's. kind of defined by personal scandal. Correct. True  or not? Right. There's a lot of personal scandal. that I won't even go into. Well, of course, cuz I  don't know and I don't want to repeat things that. are not true. Um but it's sexual scandal. Those  are the allegations. So there's that. Mhm. And I. do think in order to maintain credibility, I  also think like your your faith requires you.

to like explain that and show people that it's,  you know, true and repent, apologize, be better, or prove it's not true, but like that seems all  kind of unressed. So, how did she wind up given. all that the president of the United States chief  fin spiritual adviser? Um, I've talked to a a past. employee of hers who Paula is a very bold woman.  Very loud. Uh, I had never seen I don't consider.

that a compliment at all. I just want to be clear.  What? Bold and loud? Yeah. I'm not into it. No, neither am I. And so I had never been around  her before, but uh when her son was preaching. and her son would say something, she would always  be the loudest one. Yell, "Amen, brother. Go, go, son." You know, she she just wanted to open.  I find that awful. And we're like we have to. think that's great. I don't think it's great at  all. I well behaved women really make history. I. don't know about that. I mean stop. Yeah. But  uh excuse me. I would agree with you. But so.

the stories that I've heard from her employees  are she Trump was a mark from the early 2000s. So she would go down to Mara Lago and hang out at  Mara Lago just waiting for Trump to pass. and when. Trump would pass, she'd approach him. And she's  a very bullish, bold woman. So, she kind of had a. mark on Trump for decades. And then same thing in  New York. She rented an apartment in Trump Tower.

and she stayed in Trump Tower waiting to have  facetime with Trump. Um, so she's been playing. the long game with Trump. Has she I mean, is she  like a well-known theologian? No. No. So like, but I guess all I'm saying is there are all  kinds of predators around all power centers, including the White House, right? It's just that's  the nature of power. It It's like a bug light. It. draws the Michael Cohens of the world into your  orbit, right? People who want power and money. But if you're going to be the spiritual adviser,  you would think there would be some like track.

record of, I don't know, Christian living.  So I got a question for you, Tuck. Um Tucker, can I call you Tuck? Call me whatever you  want, Tuck. Um, so should your business model, if you're a pastor, should your business model  emulate Christ? Well, I think your whole life is. supposed to emulate Christ. Perfect. So, here's  her bylaws, um, which are marked confidential, by the way. So, her church cannot read her bylaws.  The people who fund her cannot read her bylaws.

The only reason why they came out was because  of a lawsuit. Um, I'm going to jump to page two. really quick about membership. uh members of the  congregation are non- voting. Members of the board. of directors are voting. So congregants who fund  it have no say over anything. We'll jump a few. pages further. Um about removing officers. So if  for some reason she had a scandal, right? Usually. we remove officers from corporations that have  scandals or abuse their control and power. But.

not for her. Ready? Any officer except the pastor  president. She is the pastor and president may be. removed from his or her office by the board of  directors. The pastor president shall have the. authority to remove any officer from his or  her office at any time at her discretion. So. she cannot be removed because any officer except  the past president can be removed and then she. can fire anyone at any time for anything. So she  has unilateral control. It gets better. Ready?

Section five is resignation, removal, succession  of pastor, president. If the past or president. voluntarily resigns, she may designate her  successor successor. The past president shall. serve as president and a member of the board of  directors until her death or resignation without. need of election or appointment. She shall not be  subject to removal. These are says that says that. Is this a monarchy? What is this? It's a monarchy.  It's a monarch. It's a monarchical power.

uh death. Upon her death, the pastor president  shall be succeeded in the office of pastor. president and as a director by her son, Brad  Knight. It's a dynasty in bylaws that congregants. can't see. Is this a Christian principle? Uh no.  No. Um and then this is this is the the banger. Ready? Powers of officers. The senior pastor is  the president of the corporation. And this is a. sticking point for me because most pastors will  say, "My church is not a business." Well, no, it's.

a corporation registered with the state. It's very  much a business, right? So, the senior pastor is. the president of the corporation and is referred  to within these bylaws as pastor president. Here's. the drum roll. The church finds its headship under  the Lord Jesus Christ in its pastor president. So, you don't find your headship in Jesus Christ. You  find it under the Lord Jesus Christ in Paul White.

So if I want to get to Jesus Christ, I have to go  through Paul White. I believe we had a Protestant. Reformation to get away from this idea. You can  keep that copy that the leader is infallible. and the leader speaks always and everywhere  for God himself. Yes. Isn't that why we had. the reformation 500 years ago? Well, that's the  point of Christ. Christ came to remove middlemen, to remove the Levitical priesthood. That's what  I thought. Yeah. Wow. That's So how unusual? I've. never heard of anything like that. How unusual  is that? That's pretty aggressive bylaws. But.

here's Second Baptist bylaws. So I I had a fun  interaction in Houston the other week. This is. a church with a billion dollars in assets in  Houston. A billion. It's it's 98 years old. So. that means generation after generation of generous  Christc centered Houstononians have funded this. building. some of my favorite people in the world  and relatives of mine who I really look up to as. Christians, you know, have spent a lot of time in  that church and helped fund it and whatever. So,

I know that there are true amazing people  Christians in that church. 93,000 members. had voting rights and voting rights are hey, just  like a democracy, just like America, a republic, we want to have a say in how just like the church  in Acts. Yes. We want to have a say. the earliest. church and that's what we should probably be  modeling ourselves after, right? We want to. have a say in how this all operates a couple  years ago. One, very interesting lawyer from. Dallas who I've I've had multiple interactions  with. Um, and then the young family decided to.

in a shady back-end deal remove voting rights of  93,000 members like that. So a billion dollars in. assets where that was voted on by 93,000 members  in a in a single meeting on page seven removed the. voting rights. As such members are not entitled  to vote in person, by proxy or otherwise. So a. billion dollars in assets were put into the hands  of six people, five of which are related. When did.

that happen? Uh 2023. And now there's an ongoing  lawsuit uh because the congregants are suing for. their rights back. How can you do that? You can't.  But shady lawyers. So, this is a big this is a big. thing that we talk about in the religion business  in season one. The church was never meant to be a. capitalistic endeavor. No, it's not a business.  Yes. But capitalism has crept into it and shrewd.

smart businessmen and women and lawyers have  realized it is the perfect legal architecture to. either scam people or build empires in the name  of Jesus. Spring is the most refreshing time of. year and nothing compliments it better than black  rifle coffee. Lots of it. It's an American company. founded by veterans with conviction. They built  the whole thing around a simple idea. Do it right. or just don't do it. They're definitely doing  it right. We know cuz we drink it all day long. If you want coffee without theatrics, start with  just black. Whole bean if you grind it yourself,

ground if you don't. No sweeteners designed  disguise mediocrity. No seasonal gimmicks masking. weak beans. Just bold American roasted coffee  that delivers what it promises. And if you prefer. variety without lowering the bar, try these supply  drop variety rounds. A curated lineup of pod roast. that rotate in but never compromise strength.  Consistency, standards, discipline. Out with. watered down blends, in with pure American coffee.  You can grab just black or supply drop variety.

rounds on Amazon or go right to blackriflec.com  to stock up from the source. Black Rifle Coffee, veteran founded, American roasted, still standing,  still brewing. And and your point is, and you've. devoted, I mean, I think people can watch your  documentaries and look you up, but your point is. the problem with a lot of American Christianity is  is not the faith. Of course, you are a Christian, but is the structure that corrupts by its nature.  It's like almost I think you said to me this.

morning, it's like almost impossible to get out  of this without being corrupted if you're leading. a church with a structure like that. Correct.  Well, is that fair? 100%. It's I I say that. you can go in with the best of intentions, but if  there's no external accountability on the system, that system will inevitably eat you alive and  corrupt you. your sermons, your messaging will all. tilt to protect that institution. And it's I would  I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt. They're doing it unconsciously. Whether that be  the idea of tithing, whether that be Zionism and.

Israel, it all tilts towards protecting the  inst the status quo of the institution. Well, you see this in all institutions though. Isn't the  point of every institution over time to protect. and enlarge the institution itself? 100%. That  is the mission. But that's the that's the need. for reform in everything. The the Bible's story  is so beautiful because it's a story of birth, death, and resurrection over and over. And Christ  talks about when the seed falls, it has to die in. the soil for rebirth. But what we've created  is institutional structure that can't die. We.

can't reform this because too many people feed  off the system. There's too many parasites. But. if we killed systems and reformed them, which we  need for new birth and regrowth, then people lose. power. people, you know, lose their control and  it's baked into human nature and loss of power. and control is a prerequisite for letting for well  for religious transformation for letting God take. control. Correct. Yeah. So that's that's a big  deal. We Christ literally gave up all control and.

hung on a cross. And this is one place I want to  get to. Whether you're a Christian, my 160 million. self-professed American Christians out there, my  brothers and sisters out there, we can see the. Bible as the word of God and I can speak to it  on that. My atheist and agnostic friends, let's. see it as a history book. And today I want to talk  with you about when he said it is finished on the. cross. The last words that came out of his mouth,  he meant it. So if you're a Christ follower, we're. going to break down a lot of scriptures that you  depending on your theological approach, you will.

have to say it isn't finished. And so that's what  I want to get into. And power structure is one of. them. When he hung on that cross, he broke all  power structures. He is the only way, the truth, and the life. And no one gets to Jehovah the  father except through him. So what what does that. mean? I mean, I understand it. I mean, I always  understood Jesus to be talking about his life on. earth, but you're saying that when Christ said,  "It is finished," he was talking about the old.

covenants, the Abrahamic covenant and the Mosaic  laws, all 613 of them. Huh? Is that acknowledged. by churches? No. Because if you acknowledge it,  then your church structure for modern day church. structure has to really rethink and reform. And  what are you left with? The gospel. The saving. the saving grace of of Christ. Love. So it's it's  interesting when you look at even churches that.

you know you agree I'll speak for myself that I  agree with and love. Mhm. You love the liturgy, love the people of the people. I mean you can have  pure-hearted people in a corrupt system. Mhm. You. know the congregants. as I just said, it's about  Second Baptist in Houston. Um, but the church. itself is like, it seems like almost all of them  have deep corruption in them. Um, Christ said in.

multiple gospels, it's one of my favorite lines.  He says, "You've taken traditions of men and you. call it doctrine." Yes. Our churches today are  nothing but tradition. And it's they're based off. of a 14-point checklist that the government put  forward. They're based off the nonprofit sector. created in 19 in 1913. That's all just traditions  of men. That's not inherently bad. This room, there's no inherent goodness or badness to  it outside of what we apply to it, right?

And so we've taken traditions of men and call it  doctrine. One of those traditions is the legal. architecture of the nonprofit sector. And then  the religious exemptions applied to all churches, mosques, temples, you name it. They play by the  same rules in America. That legal architecture, there's only one conclusion to it, and that's  corruption. There's only one. When you look. at how it's structured, there's no external  accountability from an exterior source to hold.

the institution accountable. The government does  not hold religious institutions accountable. So. what it means is we hold ourselves accountable.  That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. scripturally. Like we can't hold should we just  sit sit around be like, "Hey Tucker, you and I, we've got a million bucks sitting on this table.  What should we do with it?" Well, let's just hold. each other accountable with what we're going to do  with it. No, we need some outside pressure saying, "Hey, let's oversee what we're going to do and how  we're going to steward those resources." And the. best part about that million or the ironic part  is it's not even yours and my resources. It's the.

donors who gave it to us. And so the system right  now is just set up for failure. Inflation makes. credit card statements particularly scary. You  work 40 50 hours a week just to buy groceries and. gas, things you used to be able to afford without  thinking that much about it. Then the banks charge. you 20% interest. If the system is designed to  keep you underwater, it's working. But there's. another option. Our friends at American Financing  are doing something the big banks despise. They. are helping people mortgage rates in the fives,  supporting the American dream of home ownership.

And they're showing homeowners how to take their  hard-earned equity to wipe out high interest debt. Now, we're against debt in general, but in this  economy, most people have no choice at all. So, don't go bankrupt enslaving yourself to to a  lender. Average savings are about 800 bucks a. month and it takes only 10 minutes to talk to a  salarybased mortgage consultant. No upfront fees. or obligation to see how much you can save.  Give American Financing a call 800685-5696.

That's 1800685-5696 or visit  americanfancing.net/tucker. America's home for home loans. And you think  it's uniquely bad in this country because of. the nonprofit structure devised in 1913, same year  as the income tax, I think. Correct. Same thing, same year as Jackal Island and all sorts of  interesting things. And then you made reference to. the 14point checklist. Can you just fill us in on  all of that since I'm ignorant? Yeah. So, in 1913,

the IRS carved out or the government carved out  the nonprofit sector. It looked at it looked. at all the institutions in America and it said,  "Wow, there's really brilliant institutions that. help social good." And this is a big one. They  build local social capital in their community. 1913 is pre-roll technology. You know, your your  your life was like an 80 mile radius basically. Yes. So you cared about your local community. And  so the government said, "Hey, these businesses.

do things that we can't." Salvation Army was a  great example. So the Salvation Army does things. for its local community that the federal  government and state government cannot do. So, we're going to carve out these businesses  and say, "Hey, you don't have to pay taxes. You. have more freedom to pursue your mission, which  is building social capital in your community, helping the homeless, the needy." Basically,  Matthew 25, which is who Christ told us to. help. Um, flash forward to today, there's 1.9  million nonprofits. So, it went from 12,000.

organizations in 1913 to 1.9 million. And you have  to ask why the jump? And most arguments are, well, Nathan, population increase. Okay, population  increase 4.3% in America from 1913 to present. day. If you do the math, that's around 50,000  organizations today. So, population increase. didn't increase the nonprofit sector. So, how  do we go from 12,000 to 1.9 million? Well, I think a lot of good intentioned people wanted  to help people, but the lack of accountability in.

the system has turned the nonprofit sector into  an opportunity for massive abuse and endurement. An endurement is I don't have the definition  in front of me, but it's basically no founder, family member, or executive can endure themselves  by the benefit of the organization's net assets. or net resources. So, I can take a salary, but I  can't use it like a personal piggy bank, right? And these guys use it like a personal piggy bank.  And most people use the nonprofit sector not like.

a personal piggy bank. How do they do it? Um, from  a church perspective. Yeah. Well, you can Tucker. start a church right now. You can just say, "I'm  a church." And because you say you're a church, you get that designation from the IRS immediately.  They don't have to approve you of it because of. uh this what I would argue separation of church  and state. And so, and that's like a double dip. You know, they love to say separation, church,  and state until they want the state to help them.

out. And it's it's an interesting rabbit hole to  go down. But then you just file with the state. You file your articles of incorporation. So,  you are a business, but you never have to tell. the Fed what you're doing at all. And then if  you're if you're in the evangelical world, in. the non in the non-denominational world, there's  no denominational hierarchy. So then it's the. sky's is the limit. It's it's how charismatic are  you? How good of a teacher are you? How good of. an entertainer are you? And at that point it just  becomes how quickly you can scale. And we call it.

um religious economic theory in the religion  business because it's now if I start a church. tucker down the street from yours. Now we're  pitted against each other for consumers. And. so I'm going to get a better stage than you and  then you're going to get a better lighting system. so I got to out compete you. And naturally the  system just becomes a production like a just. production and we need consumers in. So we got  to keep them entertained. And so the nonprofit. sector has just corrupted over time because of the  lack of accountability. And from the secular side,

nonprofits used to look local and that's why it  was carved out originally, right? A nonprofit was. supposed to build their local community. Well, now  with globalism, nonprofits want to look global. It's way more appealing for me to put a starving  kid from Africa on the cover of my newsletter than. a a white kid who needs some school books down the  street. And so the secular side went global. So. they forgot about the local community. And then  the church started pitting against each other.

for consumers. And so the nonprofit sector  just naturally is corrupted and it's never. been reformed. So that's how you wind up with  churches air quotes that are actually TV studios. Correct. Correct. And ironically, so the the  14-point checklist, which I originally thought. came from the IRS, uh because there were so  many churches popping up, someone was like, "How do we how do we define what a church is?" You  know, like there was a there was a big lawsuit. I.

can't remember it was in the 50s or 60s and it was  literally a a wine distillery was registered as. a church. And so, uh there was a lawsuit about  it because they're like, "You're not a church, dude. You're just selling wine." you know, and so  the word on the street is the IRS was like, "Hey, we got to put some structure to this." And so out  popped this 14-point checklist. And the checklist. came from that lawsuit. It was in California. And  it's really simple. You need a house of worship. You need a place. You need a physical building.  Um, you need a congregation. That congregation has.

to um h what do they call it? Um, it's basically  a faith state faith statement. your congregation. has to have a specific faith statement to itself  and then you have to meet once a month physically. and most churches already acted like that  somewhat and so boom you get the exemption. Well, what that does is it shoves all religion and and  faiths into that simple box. Um and so Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, you  name it, Scientology, they just play by the.

same rules now. And so that was if they want  the tax exemption, they have to behave. They. want the tax exemption. But what does that do?  So that's not really separation of church and. state. That's actually the state constraining  church. Correct. And you have to ask like why. let's talk about okay we'll give everybody the  benefit of the doubt. Why? What happens? What's. the byproduct of that 14point checklist? Every  mosque looks like every Christian church looks. like every Jewish synagogue. It's the same thing.  The exterior might be looking a little different.

Your message from the pulpit might be a different  but the structurally they're all the same. And what it does is it pull pulls all resources  inward. It calcifies the institution as opposed. to as opposed to going out. And the beautiful part  about Christianity is it was an outward gospel. It. was help your neighbor. It was go out and make  disciples. Of course, Jesus sends the disciples. out. But now it's come in. And naturally, what  does that do? If I'm bringing everybody into.

my church, hierarchy starts building. We need  resource to do this. And it's just a natural. conclusion to what happened in 1913. And then the  14-point checklist. That's amazing. So, some of. these churches have become very rich, it sounds  like. Very. Yeah. The LD, the Mormon church, um they're sitting at like 350 billion in net  assets, billion with a B. Um they're the second. largest private land owner in the US now. They'll  hit a trillion dollars in market assets if they.

keep their pro the market profits um in the next  15 years. Why? What's the point of a church, any. church having that much money? Well, they'll say  it's for um a famine and they'll say it's for the. second coming. That's literally their argument.  Yes. Um and so you go, "Okay, I'll even give you. that." Ready? So, and they use the story of Joseph  and the famine in Egypt as an example. They have. the largest farm, largest ranch in Florida. Well,  they're turning it into a city. Desireette. Yeah. Yeah. They're they want to build a uh I can't  remember 133,000 acre city. Yeah, they're working.

on that right now. Interesting. But so what they  what they say is they point to Joseph. Well, Joseph only stockpiled for seven years, right? The  Mormon church has stockpiled indefinitely. So they. have they've reached something that the widows  might report calls escape velocity. They make so. much in the market in interest alone. They could  fund the global LDS church just off a fraction. of the interest and uh grow in perpetuity. They  would never have to ask a dollar for any from any.

congregant again, but they still ask you for your  money. It's interesting that they point to Joseph. I mean, it's a wonderful amazing story. I mean,  it's a huge chunk of Genesis, right? Yeah. Um and. a great great story. But it's kind of the opposite  of the way Jesus commanded his own disciples. He sends them out with nothing. Correct. With no  preparation whatsoever. No food, no arms, no extra.

sandals, no extra clothes. He doesn't even send  them with talking points. He doesn't tell them. what to say. Well, and can I ask you, why do you  think he sent them out with nothing? Well, so they. would rely on God. He says, when you're hauled  into court, don't think about what you're going. to say. The Holy Spirit will speak for you. Just  open your mouth and start talking. Amen. And so he. would they would rely on the generosity of others.  Yes. And and of God. Yeah. Like the put yourself. out there and God comes to the rescue. Display  weakness and God will become your strength. So.

he's like telling very explicitly people not to  prepare for that eventuality. I mean all of us. disobey it. I certainly do. But I'm I hope I'm  not sounding self-righteous, but like that's not. the message of the gospels that I can tell. I I  agree. So, what have we built? We've just We've. built corporations labeled with Jesus on them.  We've built products labeled with Jesus. We've. built energy drinks labeled with Jesus. We've  built We're selling Jesus in man. Does he talk.

about selling him his name and his father's name?  He does. Yeah. Explain. Well, there's a there's a. story and it's right before they want to kill him.  He walks into the temple and he uh starts flipping. tables over and he has this whip and he's whipping  people like whipping people and he goes, "You've. turned my father's house into a robber's den."  And you the place of worship where you're supposed. to worship Jehovah, my father. You've turned this  house into a robber's den. You're making money in.

my father's name. And um what are we doing? We've  turned the entire religious structure in America, Christian structure, into a money-making endeavor.  Even even well-intentioned denominations, they have to accept money to keep the machine  moving. It's a hungry machine financially. And. and so I believe the model's totally backwards.  We've Americans are good at well, all humans are.

good at building, but Americans are really good  at building. And we've just built things to the. point where they they've corrupted. And the the  casualty of that is the true body of Christ is. now chained to the pews of the institution cuz  they have to be. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I grew up in a. church like that. A church that built buildings  that were so beautiful that you could not go to. them even when they became pagan. It's like I love  it. Such a beautiful church. I mean, there aren't.

many of those left in the United States, but but  the Episcopal Church built the prettiest buildings. probably in the whole country. Some of my I love  cathedrals. I travel a lot and my favorite thing. are are cathedrals. But, you know, during the  Protestant Reformation, they burned most of. them down. They broke the stained glass. They were  overbuilding things cuz what a when Christ came, he goes, "You are the temple. The Holy Spirit  dwells in you. There's no more physical temple, right? And so, what are we building? we're  building physical temples. And the LDS side.

of things is fascinating, too, in regards to the  temples. They love to build. And you have to ask. why they want to build those temples. Um, and  that just goes into the history of Joseph Smith. and Mormonism. But they've I tip my hat to the  Mormon church in regards to you figured out the. cheat code. Like in any video game, you figured  the cheat code out in the religious exemption. side of things because the only reason why they  got rolled and busted by the SEC is they had so. much money invested and they weren't filing what's  called a 13F. So when you have a h 100red million.

bucks invested in the market, you have to fill  out anformational 13F, which is just anformational. filing saying, "Hey, here's my stock. Here's our  stock portfolio because you could technically. sway the market." Of course. Yeah. And uh they  have billions, tens of billions invested in the. market. Do we know where? Can you know where? Um  yeah, you can now they now they're they fill out. the forms now. And so they're heavily invested  in pharmaceuticals. They're heavily invested in.

machinery of war. Um so the LDS actually Yeah.  Yeah. The LDS church profits from war and from. um co you know they they Is that true? Yeah. How  from CO? uh they are heavily invested in Fizer and. Madna and and all the um vaccine companies that's  verified verified yeah verified on their 13Fs so. when the government under Biden you know very  liberal anti- Mormon you would think government. starts pushing commanding the population to  take the vaccine how does the Mormon hierarchy.

respond to that they put out a marketing video  saying you should get the jab you should get. the vaccine actually yeah and The prophet got  a shot live on camera. I don't know if it was a. real vaccine or just a dummy for his sake. I hope  it wasn't. Yeah. But uh but yeah, they encouraged. their church congregation to get the vaccine.  That's true. True. Fact. Fact on camera. I mean,

it's only been 5 years, but that's like so  shocking that any church would do that. But they. weren't the only church that did that. Yeah. Lots  encouraged it. it. Churches have become political, whether right or left. Um, and churches are have  become a weapon of the political party. It's it's. a box on a shelf. When I need that evangelical  vote, I'm going to pull it off. So, you know. for a fact that the LDS church is invested in  weapon manufacturing? Yeah, they're they're. heavily invested in um in uh North of Grumman  and multiple other uh um how can a church invest.

in like weapons that kill innocents? I don't I  think it's extremely antithetical to what they. believe. But their argument is Nathan, we're just  following the status quo of the market. Whatever. the index is, we just invest in. They don't  they don't care about what they're invested in. Then they've said that that's I just want to  be clear. I like a lot of Mormons just like.

I like I like a lot of Let me and let me be very  clear, Tucker. There are so many good Christians, Mormons, like people are awesome. Institutions  are what I can't stand because they corrupt. So it's how do we bring accountability and  reform into institutions? Whether that be. religious institutions or government institutions,  there has to be accountability, transparency and. accountability in that in this, right? No, it's  totally right. I mean, you run into, you know,

the longer you live and the more you travel and  the more people you meet, you'll run into people. in institutions that you revile. Mhm. That are  just obviously evil. CIA, FBI, IRS, you know, um who are just great people. and you're like,  "Wow, you know, uh, I feel sorry for you." But. it's also just important to make the distinction  between individuals in whatever institution. they're serving. 100%. I love people. Yeah, I I  do too. I love people. I do too. So, uh, Franklin.

Graham, like, how much money has Samaritan's Purse  amassed? Franklin, Billy's son. Well, I So, uh, Samaritan's Purse does great work. They work  with refugees. They work immigration. They work. um natural disasters. Um they do good work. And  I want you to think about that carrot. There's. always that carrot that nonprofits dangle.  This is their uh 2021 uh 990, which is just.

anformational sheet uh that churches do not have  to file. So the the beautiful part about the 990s, the this is the first two pages. A 990 is just  anformational sheet that every secular nonprofit. files annually and it shows the IRS and then  their donors roughly where the money goes. Um, so there's two things I want to I want to bring  up and if I forget I want to talk about Alaska. Just say let's talk about Alaska. This is 2021. Up  in this top right there's two numbers highlighted. Uh, what's the first? And then the first number  highlighted it. Holy smokes. um is 923,718,989.

The second number is 1 bill222,6910. So from  2020 to 2021 their net assets jumped from 900. billion to 1.2, right? Yes. This is their 2024.  So remember guys, 900 million in 2021. This is.

2024. A few years later, it jumps to 2 almost 2.5  billion. 2.5 billion. What does that mean? How. can a charity have 2.5 billion dollars in assets?  They're bu they're building a war chest. It's the. same thing with the LDS church. They've realized  that the nonprofit can do some good with a carrot, but then just stockpile money. And so donors are  giving, looking at the carrot, saying we're doing.

good work as the nonprofit itself, as the as the  corporation just stockpiles resources. But to what. end? To the LDS church's end, they figured it out  to the point where there's no end in sight. At. least the Mormons have a consistent theology where  there's going to be a famine and we're banking. against it and every Yeah, but that's I get that.  Okay. For seven years, but you're talking about. indefinitely. They're banking on an indefinite  famine, right? I don't Then I don't really see. where God fits into that. No, he's he's not there,  bro. Okay. Yeah. Um, but why would Samaritan's.

Purse, which is not a Mormon organization, why  would they have $2.5 billion dollar banked? I. don't know. Or in assets? In assets. I I don't  know. It's a great question for Franklin. And. um so how much do they spend a year helping the  needy? Uh estimates are 60 to 100 million. So, but they're raising hundreds of millions annually.  So they're building this war chest and this is. this is how can Franklin Graham be raising that  much more than he's spending on the needy cuz.

he's a good fundraiser. Yeah, but like isn't the  money don't people give to him to do good? Yes, they ex So what I see is nonprofits a non the  nonprofit structure right now is just draining. and and taxation is draining the American  populace of resource of wealth for what end. I don't know but life's getting more expensive  nonprofits are cheerleading saying they're doing.

more as homelessness rises as poverty rises um  the the entire system and architecture is broken. in institutional religion and politic in America  go hand in hand even though they say they don't. Yeah. I mean I always gave to land trust because I  don't like you know ugly development and I really. love nature so passionately but then you realize  the land trust kind of ex not all land trusts but. a lot of land trusts exist for their own benefit  and then they gate the land and you can't use it. Yeah. So you can't hunter fish on their land.  So like what's the point of this exactly? Like.

I hunting fish on timberland paper company land.  Yeah. But the second some nonprofit from Vermont. takes over, you can't go on the land. So like why  do you exist? Exactly. And they own all the land. in a lot of places. Why does the nonprofit sector  exist? It's a great question for itself. Yes. That's what it's corrupted into. So can I ask you  and I I don't want to focus too much on sarin's. purchase because I know that there are many groups  like it, but they're at $2.5 billion clearly one. of the biggest. A lot of these guys fly private.  Mhm. And as someone who flies commercial often.

coach, I mean, because you should cuz like why  would you be wasting money on a private plane. all the time? Like how do how does a Christian  organization justify having a private jet? Um. it's usually their schedules are too busy, Tucker.  That's their that's their rationale. Copeland, um Duplantis, they say no one could fly public  with my travel schedule. Maybe you slow down your. travel schedule a little bit. Maybe the I only  say that because I've flown private enough to know.

that it's like next level expensive. Like there's  no way to even for businesses, rich people don't. buy their own planes because like I just can't  justify that. I'll charter if I need it. There's a. funny there's a funny story. So to have a private  jet that you own and pilots whose retirement you. pay, fuel costs that you shoulder, the endless  maintenance on the plane incredibly expensive. Like ask any rich person. Mhm. That rich people  don't do. I mean, some do, but most rich people.

are like, "I'm not rich enough for that." Yeah.  Right. There's a great story of I know a lot. of rich people, trust me. They'll be like, "I'm  rich, but I'm not that rich." Then you see some. preacher who's got a private jet. It's like, "What  world are you living in?" Mhm. What is this? Well, and the congregation will justify it, too. That's  what's so backwards. Sorry, that makes me mad. The blind lead the blind into a ditch, as the  scriptures say. But how common is that? You've. got your own jet. It's It's not I wouldn't say  it's that common. Um there there's some a lot. of pastors try to get into that space and then  their congregations do sometimes push back. And so.

uh who was I just talking? If I had a pastor in  a church that I was attending on Sunday say, "We. need a private jet." I mean, I'd stand up in the  middle of the service and say, "Son, I know more. about this than you do. You do not need a private  jet. Jesus didn't fly private. He rode a donkey. Like what are you doing?" Well, then they'll say,  "Oh, but the donkey was literally I've had someone. say that was the fastest mode of transportation."  It wasn't. It was the most humiliating form of. transportation. That's why he chose it. Yeah.  Yeah. But they'll justify it. Samaritans Pur has.

uh I didn't print their entire 2024. Um but  last year they had I think 134 million in in. plain assets. What? Let me see. Dang it. Yeah,  it's not on this doc. way more comfortable with. a pastor sleeping with his assistant, which is  totally immoral, than I am with him having a. private chest. I agree. I agree. Because at least  everyone realizes like you're not supposed to. sleep with your assistant. It's totally sinful.  It's wrong. Well, the planes are the same. But.

a plane is like a subtle kind of evil. It's like  no one even notices. Oh, we're so important. He's. got a plane. Well, that's the prosperity gospel  message creeping in right there. What is that. exactly? This is Paula White. This is Kenneth  Copeland Duplantis. This is if God favors me, I will be prosperous. And it comes from Malachi 3.  Malachi 3. Yeah. Opening the windows of heaven and. you're going to be prospered. Uhhuh. Malachi 3 is  talking about one thing. It's talking about rain.

for their fields. It's saying if you bring into  the storehouse, I will open the windows of heaven. to you and pour out a blessing like you've never  seen. This Malachi was talking about rain falling. on the land so you could refill your storehouse.  He wasn't talking about a private plane. Well, especially for a Christian to be like, you  know, why are you doing that? Malachi 3. It's like we've got a whole New Testament  and four gospels in that and like why don't. you read those and tell me if you should have a  private plane at other people's expense. Well,

this this goes back to our conversation earlier  about Malachi. If you don't read the scriptures. in its entirety and see it as one book and one  glorious story, you can bastardize a couple verses. that and it have detrimental effects on the global  church, the body of Christ. When I say the church, I'm sorry to do this. Um, now I just want to be  totally transparent and say that Franklin Graham. called me an anti-semite. So I'm obviously not  with Franklin Graham. Uh, so I should just say.

that just so people understand that I probably  have mixed motives in doing this. I'm not a pure. person. But I also think it's worth just pausing  at Franklin Graham for a second because his father. was a great man. I think Franklin Graham is like  a sober, serious person in a lot of ways. He's not. a transparent ridiculous figure like Paula White.  It's just I mean it's almost too easy to beat up. on Paula White. Okay. Yeah. The great theologian  Paula White. But Franklin Graham is a much more. serious person and he's always on Fox News and  all that. And so that's why I do think it's worth.

pausing and having you restate how much do they  own in private aircraft? Uh around 130 million. That's just trey bonkers as the French say. Like  that's just beyond $130 million. And this is a. great track to move into Alaska. So he bought  a piece of land with his wife on Lake Clark.

in Alaska. Very remote. I've been to Alaska a  few times, so I understand how remote Measka is. beautiful. Some of the most pretty country in the  world. Um hard to get to though. Very. And this. is what gets interesting. So I believe I can't I  don't have the document in front of me. He he and. his wife bought this little lakefront halfacre. I  believe it's a half acre or maybe even a quarter. acre, very small property on beautiful Lake Clark.  Um, a few years and that was they purchased it. personally cuz Franklin loves Alaska. He loves  fishing. He he loves bear hunting. He He's a He's.

a loves outdoor. Yeah. No, I like that about him.  And I Yeah, I'm a big outdoorsman. You are. And. uh well, what happened was a few years later,  Samaritan's Purse bought the lot next to him. and flash forward in um the little town called  is called Port Alsworth. There's only a couple. hundred people that live there full-time.  There's no signals. You can't drive to it. There is no road that gets you from Anchorage or  any other city to Port Alsworth. The only way to. get there is by flight, private plane, and there's  a dirt runway. There's two of them. Or by boat,

by barge up these rivers. Yeah. And and  this is a good story for backstory. So, I was up in Alaska probably four years ago. No,  longer than that. Five years ago, and we're in the. middle of nowhere. I'm with Inuits. Like, we're  going back in on float planes to find a property. that my friend was inheriting from her parents.  I'm like, I'll go with you. This sounds awesome, right? So, I'm carrying a I got a 10 mil  strap to my chest, a shotgun, a bear gun,

and and I'm like, we're going we're in the middle  of nowhere. We're sitting with this Inuit. Um, we're staying at her cabin and she's making  us a meal and she asks what I do and I say, "The religion business." And I give her this  the story. We're filming it and she goes, "Oh, you won't believe it. Her her husband owns a barge  and barges barges equipment up and down these. rivers." And she goes, "We just barged a soft top  Ford Bronco, brand new, 2021." So it's right when.

the Ford Bronco came out. And I'm like, what is  a soft top Ford Bronco being barged up a river. in the middle of nowhere for? And uh and this is  where you couldn't get them. They were, you know, they were very hard to get. And she goes, "Yeah,  uh we barged it up for Samaritan's Purse." And. I was like, "What?" And she goes, "Yeah, here's  the invoice." And she put the invoice in front of. me that said Samaritan's Purse on. Ah, this is so  corrupt. I can't believe this is real. And this is. where it gets crazier. So I was like, "Wait, what  do they do?" And she goes, "They have this camp.

for which is awesome. My brother's a marine. My  best friend's a marine or a military. My business. partner's retired military. I have massive respect  for our armed forces." So they started a nonprofit. up there um called Heal Our Patriots and uh they  bring couples, husband wife couples up there to. reinvigorate their relationship and retune them to  Christ. Awesome idea, right? And so, uh, but I'm. like, what's a soft top Ford Bronco doing in the  harshest environments in the world? I mean, like,

no one takes nice things up there because they all  rust and get destroyed within a few seasons. So, I start doing some research. Uh, sure enough, I  find it. They bring a couple hundred people up. there a year for 3 months out of the year. Um,  they have these massive lakefront cabins. Now, they bought I said there was two dirt runways.  Samaritan's Purse bought one of the runways. So, now they have their own private air strip. And  uh so Franklin and his wife have a house and they.

bring a couple Mike Pence has been there multiple  times. Um he does. And so ironically I'm like. I'm going. So a camera operator and I we went to  Anchorage, took a plane to I can't a little Cessna. to somewhere else and then we got on a float plane  and we landed. We're in the middle of nowhere, Tucker. And all of a sudden there's it's Have you  seen the movie uh Truman Show? No. Uh great movie, but it's about a fake world. It was a fake world.  There wasn't a blade of grass out of place. Like.

the amount of upkeep and and care to make this  place look perfect. And then the crazier part. is this is where this is where I go conspiracy  theory. There's these massive fuel storage tanks, massive 20,000 gallons at a time. And this ma this  plane would fly in and land and just refuel these. tanks. And I talked to the pilot and he's like,  "Yeah, this place is like a bunker basically to. just camp out." And I'm like, "Oh, this is like  Franklin Graham's World War III like hideout.

Like if things go south, he's going to ping up  here. He's got they've got gardens. They've got. um full uh green houses." I'm like, "This  is like this is the bugout zone." And that's. just my conspiracy theory, but it's not I mean  every rich person in the world thinks that way. So, the reason why I'm saying this is this  organization is paid for by donor dollars. It is. a multi-million dollar a year operation. Franklin  Graham, I have his flight logs, flies his private. jet back and forth from North Carolina to Alaska  during this three-month window. If you really.

wanted to be run a successful, humble nonprofit,  crazy. This is where it gets crazier. Like, you live in North Carolina almost on the water.  You could start a great operation there in your. backyard. But here's my kicker. Their 990s show  donors where the money goes. Um, this isn't their. full 990, so you wouldn't be able to see it,  but in the back of a 990, they line itemize uh. where you're supposed to line itemize where your  money goes. There is nothing in their 990 that.

has anything to do with Alaska. So, it's buried  in another line item that no donor knows about. So, I just get I get this story specifically  because that's every rich guy in the world wants, you know, who's a sportsman, wants a camp on a  remote lake in Alaska, easy access, and wants. a bugout spot. Everybody wants that. I mean, I I  would know. Yeah. And that's what everyone talks.

about. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. And that's  the opposite of a conspiracy theory. That's like. the thing people want most. Mhm. And if you can  find a way to get your nonprofit to pay for it. and a way to morally justify it to yourself while  I'm helping wounded warriors keep their marriages. together. Mhm. That's just uh that is so corrupt.  I can if what you're saying is true. That's like. I've been there. We filmed there. We got This is  the best part. So there's so many good parts of. the story. So at the end of the runway, there's  a food truck that they barged up. Get this. They.

barged this food truck up there to be there, too.  And it's called uh what's Franklin's daughter's. name? Cece or she goes by uh I don't know.  Can't remember her name. It's named after his. daughter. This food truck. They serve a very  specific hamburger. That's Franklin Graham's. favorite hamburger. His favorite meat patty.  And so we just picked a random date to go. Like I didn't coordinate this or or anything.  And but you can only go in the summer. And so. uh I'm sitting there and it's the only place  to eat. So literally we ate there every day.

And uh we're sitting there and we we had hiked  this ridge line to get a a a shot looking down and. uh Franklin Graham pulls up in the Bronco and I'm  like well my camera operator's like dude that's. the Bronco. And I was like what? And out drives  from the side road this soft top Bronco. Pulls up, gets out, walks straight into the food truck, not  goes up to order, walks into the back of kitchen.

and starts making himself a burger. and we have a  camera. And so I just put the camera on the table. and it starts rolling and there's only two picnic  tables. And so I'm looking this way. Franklin. makes his burger, walks out, sits in the other  picnic table staring right at me. Wait, can I ask. like where is there to drive? There's nowhere to  drive the runway. So the Bronco is to drive from. the runway to the camp. The the Bronco is to drive  from his house down the air strip to to the main.

setup. How far is that? Probably a quarter mile,  third of a mile. What? Yeah. And they barged a. brand new Bronco in to drive a quarter mile. Yeah.  Most people use quads or golf carts, you know, because there's nothing there. Walk. There was one  other car that I saw. It was a uh um it was like a. 1988 Chevy Suburban, and I know it cuz it was my  first car. So, um great vehicle. Yeah. 454. That. big old big time. Yeah. Yeah. Big time. Um but  that was the only other car. And then a brand new. Ford Bron soft top Ford Bronco. Yeah. Wow. I don't  think most really rich people who actually made.

the money honestly or not honestly but who made  it themselves and didn't just like not pay taxes. on donor money designed to help starving Africans.  I don't even think they would go to that expense. It it was impressive. That's very extravagant.  Well, and he he's using donor money to justify it. And then on their 990s, you can't find the line  item cost of the operation. That's the problem.

I have. What do people say when you tell them?  I've never heard any of this, but it's I would. say it's 50/50. Mo the the people who don't  like abuse are like that's that's incredible, but I would never I don't think that's Franklin  Graham because they they look at Billy Graham, who I respect and they go, he's the son of Billy  Graham. But again, all systems corrupt and anybody. who goes into this system eventually gets eaten by  it. and the other side uh actually try to justify.

it. So many people try to justify this type of  abuse. Really? Mhm. How? Franklin's a godly man, Tucker. A godly man is a humble man. That's  the first that's the first sign of godliness. is humility cuz you're not God. Yeah. Right. So  that was the model that Jesus left us. That was. the model of the early church was humility. Well,  and I find it ironic too. We have the shot in the. show. Um, oh, to get the the the veterans and  their wives up there, they need private planes,

too. So, they bought these other aircraft that  um they look like military transporters almost. Yeah. And they land and they circle around cuz  it's a small runway. And so, they circle around. Who's the first person off the plane? Who? Their  staff photographer because they got to get the. marketing photos of these wounded veterans getting  off the plane. And I just laughed and and the best. part is I'm there waving an American flag because  they bring out the whole town because there's so. few people on this little strip. They want it to  feel like it's something. So cooks, everybody are.

coming out with a little American flag, waving it.  So I'm sitting there waving my flag with them and. uh it's all in the show and the first person  off is the staff photographer just making sure. they document it to get all the shots. And then,  ironically, so I'm I I told you I spent six years. in Maui, um, during the Lahina fires, uh, which  was awful. I have really close friends in Maui. A couple of my friends are firefighters, um, that  worked at the airport there. Samaritans pur flew.

their jet or their jumbo, their their cargo plane  from North Carolina to Lahina. I'm sorry, uh, to Yeah, Lina. Kahooi. They landed at Kahooi.  And, uh, the first person off that jet, too, staff photographer. they've got to get the shot,  that they're bringing in materials to help the. people of Maui. And then Edward Graham, Franklin's  son, walks off and uh I was told what was on that. plane, all of it could have been bought at Costco  down the street. Water, blankets, just But they.

spent tens of thousands of dollars in fuel to  get the marketing shot. Hundreds of thousands of. dollars. So they could raise hundreds and hundreds  of thousands of dollars. So they could so they can. get the marketing shot. So they can raise money  saying, "Look at us. help the victims of of the. Lahina fire and and those victims still like I  I have such a heart for Maui and what happened. there. Um but Samaritan's Purse for the I would  call I would confidently say the majority of. it is all just smoke and mirrors at this point.  They do good work. They do some good work. Well,

$2.5 billion dollars where you're not spent if  you know I mean just do the math that should. be billions a year spent on the poor. I I agree.  Yeah. Just by definition. Yeah. And and there's. the silver lining here is American Christians  and global Christians, but American Christians in. particular are so generous. Yes, they are. That we  could solve through the money we give most social. issues in America. The church could do it, but the  money is not being stewarded properly. It's being. shelled up in massive corporations and people  are leveraging um donor generosity to build their.

bugout spaces in Alaska all in the name of Jesus.  People don't fear God very much anymore. Well, the most effective Christian mission I've ever  seen, I think, that exists in the country is not. even explicitly Christian, but it is Christian and  it's AA. And it raises no money. They won't even. take money from you. And no one gets paid. There's  no one in charge. And they take people who are. killing themselves, literally killing themselves,  and they they change them completely. Not all of.

them, but they have a better success rate than  any other rehab by far. And they're they they. acrew zero power. Wow. It's the most Christian  thing that happens in most churches. You'll. have some like rotting congregational church.  No one goes, you got a trans preacher lady or. something and then on Wednesday they'll have the  AA meeting and Jesus will fill the room. Well, my cost nothing. Yeah. It's amazing. When  I was traveling, like back in the day, I'd travel to developing nations cuz I worked  in the action sports world, so surf and snow.

And so you usually go to some pretty remote  spots and I would always want to go to churches. uh and seminaries in those regions. Oh, I bet.  And so I've gotten to worship in tin roofs and the. back rivers of Honduras in the fllas in the Brazil  in Brazil like the most beautiful things. And I. that's what really started the religion business  for me is I would these people would never ask for. money. They would ne they wouldn't have coffee and  donuts. They were huddled under a tin roof as the. rain was pouring down. There was no instruments.  Most of the time they were just singing ac.

cappella and someone would pull out a little Bible  and read some scriptures and I I believe God just. filled those rooms. I believe that. And then I'd  come back to the mega churches that I would go to. and I'd walk in and I'd be like, "Oh, it's just  the fog machine's filling the room for sure.". But I it was just performance. And so that really  made me rethink what is a church. Yeah. I mean, especially since Jesus is pretty tough on the rich  and on money and it's a challenge to any of us, you know, who have excess money. It's like, what  is he saying? Well, money is the root of all evil,

right? Well, that's what it's the the love of  money. Yes, love. The love of money is not the. money, right? That's what Paul said and Jesus  says famously, "It's harder for a rich man to. get to heaven than a camel through the eye  of a needle." Um, so yeah, the idea that. like you follow God and get rich is like like  a perfect inversion of what he said. But that's. capitalism creeping into the church. And I would  actually argue, and this is a bold statement, uh, a Democratic Republic is the greatest government  experiment in the history of humanity. I I I would.

say I've enjoyed it. We enjoyed it. Yeah. So,  we enjoy it. We love I love America. You love. America. I do. Capitalism should not be anywhere  near Christianity. You think? Christianity is more. and I don't like the word socialist with the with  the the weight it carries but Christianity and. it's is socialism at its core non- athoritarian  it's it's a it's the marker to build social. capital you look at that early church of acts and  it transformed Rome within a couple hundred years.

the greatest superpower of its time to where  Constantine was like I'm a Christian hanging. out with these dudes they had no money they had no  buildings but somehow the love of their neighbor. transformed the greatest superpower of its time.  That's dangerous. It needs to be constrained, right? Today, it's just we've let capitalism and  uh Carl Truman, he's a reformation thought expert, brilliant guy from England, he calls it the rugged  American individualistic experience. And he goes.

that has detrimental effects on Christianity. How  about greed? I mean, it just looks like greed to. me. Um but yeah, so let me ask about um I never  paid any attention to any of this stuff ever. I. just didn't ever encounter it uh at all because  America is like a collection of cultures that. don't sort of meet each other very much. But um  the only reason I became aware of any of this is. because of its effect on foreign policy which  I have followed closely for a long time. So. all of a sudden you see these preachers endorsing  violence. Mhm. And my understanding of the gospel,

it's like Jesus does not command anyone to go kill  anybody else. Like just the opposite. So I'm like, what is this? So you press a little bit and  you find that they're serving this theology. or ideology or demonic influence. I mean, I  don't know what it is, but this conflation. of the nation, modern nation state, secular  nation state of Israel with biblical Israel, whatever that was. You find this thing called  Christian Zionism. And I still don't understand.

it. It's not Christianity. But what is it? Where  does it come from? And is it as widespread among. the leaders of these institutions as it seems to  be? Let's start last question first. They're they. all seem to be the people you're talking about all  seem to be Christian Zionists. Yeah. I would argue. it's dispensationalism. Okay. Is the is the is the  bedrock of it, right? Like so I feel like Zionist, anti-semite, all these hot button words are  just thrown around. That's for sure. So yeah,

dispensate. I don't care what anybody  calls me. Like I'm going to reach Oh, and I have my business partner and I have  something for you. Um cuz I'm going to go. back to this right now. This is a preachers's  Bible from 1668. Wow. Um so preachers, this is. this is what a preacher carried around. Um and a  good friend of mine is one of the biggest Bible. collectors in the world. So 1668 right on the  spine there. Um, and this is what you and I are. going to reference for the next uh for this this  time to understand dispensationalism, Zionism,

anti-semi anti-semitism. Um, yeah, printed in  in 1668. And it's amazing in England. Yep. In. England. And yeah, I just figured it's it's it's  um whenever anybody starts talking about subjects. like this, I will always refer to the scriptures  for truth. nothing else. Not popular belief, not opinion. Incredible. Just the scriptures. So  that's for you. Um from from Chris and I. Well,

that is so kind. Thank you. Um I love that. I'll  let you read it. Yeah. Yeah. It's a good one. So. it's a good book, guys. Um whether you see it as  a history book or the word of God, it's a it's a. great book. Um dispensationalism is a very new  thing. It's only a couple hundred years old. Um a guy named Darby kind of spun it up. Uh the  Scullfield Reference Bible had it in his margin. notes. And so it's the idea that the world is  broken into dispensations or periods. And so Darby.

had this idea that Israel, the the 12 tribes which  came from Abraham, um are different from the body. of Christ that Christ talks about in the gospels  and that um Paul pushes for and really closes down. in the epistles. And so dispensationalism is  Israel, the the tribe of Israel is set apart. from the body of Christ. And part of that is  this idea of reclaiming the promised land,

the physical promised land. Where does that I mean  Paul, who wrote the majority of the New Testament, who was a Jew, was a Pharisee, a persecutor of  the church, and then met Jesus, he goes out of. his way to say that the opposite of that. Romans,  he destroys that argument. Like he he levels. dispensationalism with a sledgehammer in Romans.  Hebrews, same exact thing. Galatians hits on it, too. Oh, I know. Yeah. And um so it goes back  to this idea when we don't see the scriptures,

and this is what I want to encourage everybody  out there, Christians, atheists, agnostics, I don't care. Like it's the greatest history  book of humanity. We can see it as that. And. you have to see it as one story. It's not 66  different stories for the 66 book canon. It is. one story. When we dive into this book and start  cherrypicking verses or parables and applying it. to our life, that's a very dangerous practice cuz  we become our own storyteller which is idolatry.

Yes. And so you have to see this book as one  complete story of birth, death, and resurrection. or creation and fulfillment in redemption. And  so dispensationalism is the 12 tribes of Israel. still deserve this land. And so I don't know where  we want to and don't need Jesus. And don't need. Jesus. No. Okay. So that's the leaving aside the  land and what you do with the Levant and all that. and what the boundaries of that land are. I mean  these are all questions I tried to get answers.

from in my conversation with Mike Huckabe to no no  avail. But but that's secondary as a theological. matter to the core question which is how do  you get to heaven? How are you redeemed? And. I think the New Testament could not make it clear.  Jesus couldn't make it clear. Paul couldn't. Paul, the Jewish Pharisee couldn't make it clearer.  It's through Jesus. It's an exclusive claim. That's that's it's that or nothing. Correct. And  Jesus, that's what it says, right? Am I missing. something? A chapter I don't know about. Jesus  is the way, the truth, and the life. No one gets.

to the father. Okay. So then then you have people  just arrive out of nowhere 150 or 200 years ago, and they're like, "Well, actually, there's  one group that doesn't need Jesus." Is that. what they're saying? Correct. And this goes back  where does that come from? It it comes back from. pride is where where I'll take it. So there was  only one church and it's not the Roman Catholic. Church. It's not the Orthodox Church. Those are  great traditions. I I respect those traditions. I do too. Um but there's only one church and  that's the church of Christ. That's the body of. Christ. And in 1054 you have the great schism, the  the original split, right? Denominational split.

Boom. Now you have Catholicism in the Vatican  and you have Orthodoxy. Well, today there's. over 40,000 denominations. And you have to ask  why, Tucker? If you and I preach the same gospel, what does that mean? We're equal. There's nothing  different about you and I. We have the same God, the same Christ. We believe in the same healing  power of the through the resurrection. And we are.

here to help the hungry, the sick, the poor, the  naked, the prisoner, the sojourer, the orphan, and the widowed. But I don't want to be like you,  Tucker. I want to be unique. I need something. different. So, I'm going to go to this book and  say, "Oh, these guys Tucker got it wrong." Like, dispensationalism. Then I have a new message to  sell and I can sell it. Then I can package it and. sell it. It's power and money is at the root of  all of this. Power and money. But if all the new. messages I mean that just seems like an explicitly  anti-Christian message that you don't that some.

people don't need Jesus to be saved. I 100% agree.  If you were to summar I mean you can believe it or. reject it. Most people reject it. That's f you  know it's not my job to save people. But the. Christian messages you need Jesus. Correct. So  if you have Christian preachers all of a sudden. stand say be like well actually not really.  Mhm. Then they're not Christian preachers are. they? No. They're dividing the body of Christ.  Right. But on the on the basis of of theology, that's the 180 degree opposite of the Christian  message. Correct. I would say what is going on?

I would say most Christians, especially  dispensationalists or Zionist Christians, are Talmudic Jews wrapped in Christianity. Where  does that mean? Okay. So, uh, where do we where. should we start? Should we start? Let's can I  start in the Bible because I want to I want to. lean on scripture here. So uh you have Abraham,  Isaac, Jacob. Jacob becomes Israel. Uh Israel has.

12 sons. Those are the 12 patriarchs, right?  Ironically, the word Jew, do you know what it. means? It comes from Judah of Judah, right? So  who are the 11 12? There's so many muddled terms. here that is so that's so ironic to me. Um but so  the story goes Moses leads them through the pro. the promised land uh 40 years, I'm sorry, leads  them to the promised land. They wander through. the desert for 40 years and Moses is about to lead  them into the promised land. This is the land that.

um in the Abrahamic covenants he's uh and then  the Mosaic laws they the Israelites are going to. inherit this land, right? This is the this is the  story. So they're about to cross into the promised. land. Moses does something silly first and he  slaps a rock to get some water out and he doesn't. give credit to God. He takes the credit instead.  And so Jehovah says, "Hey, you're not going to. enter the promised land. Um, and I'm going to I'm  going to give you someone who will." It ends up. being Joshua. So Joshua is the next book of the  Bible after the Torah. Um, Joshua leads them into.

the promised land. So in Joshua 21, it says, "All  has come to pass." Not I actually want to read it. because it's such a powerful line. Um, but this  is the fulfillment of the Abrahamic covenant. And Joshua himself says it. And so the Abrahamic  covenant, remember, is Israel deserves the land. Um, let's see where is this. Sorry, I'm I'm a  big note taker. Where is it on the back? Oh,

dang it. It's not in this copy. I have so many  copies of things. So, in Joshua 21, he says, "I've given you peace in the land. Um, no one's  waring with you. God has given us everything. All has come to pass." which means that covenant  is fulfilled. Jehovah had given Israel the land. They settled in it. And so a dispensationalist  will go, "No, well, the Abrahamic covenants are. still in effect." Well, no. The very man that led  them in in the scripture says, "All has come to.

pass." And then on the cross, Christ says, "It is  finished." And what the whole story of this book. is, the Old Testament is a physical reality and  it's a shadow of a future spiritual fulfillment. And so the promise Jesus says this repeatedly  repeatedly. So the promised land God did fulfill. his covenant with Abraham. Yes. He Josh Joshua  led them in and he said all has come to pass. And then what did they do? They didn't listen.  They fell out. They bred with you know um other.

nations Philistines and boom. Okay. That doesn't  mean you get the covenant over and over and over. and over again. Right. And so Christ comes and he  takes what is a phys physical nation and Romans. is clear on this and that if physical Israel  becomes a spiritual nation. It becomes the body. of Christ. Yeah. Jesus calls himself the temple.  Yes. So Israel today is the body of Christ. Christ believing Christians. Christ following  Christians. Israel the nation state is something.

else entirely. And there's there's a geopolitical  argument to be had that yes, like they deserve. their their country, they deserve the land.  For sure, right? That's a great conversation. Don't use this book though to justify current.  Exactly. I don't think the Bible commands you. to hate modern Israel. I don't think that. And  I don't hate modern Israel. But the claim that.

the Bible tells you you have to support BB is so  deranged that it's a threat to our faith. Correct. The the physical promised land is fulfilled in  a spiritual promised land. The physical nation. tribe of Israel becomes a spiritual nation that  all are invited into. This is the story in this. book. So the only reason why you would dip back  into old covenant theology, dispensationalism, Zionism is for two things. Power and control.  Our God is a unifying God. He's not a divisive.

God. He doesn't divide. He doesn't say you're  different than you. Nope. All are my children. All come under me. And so the only reason why you  divide is for power and control. That is so wise. That is true. That is true. I mean that's the  that's the story of history. Mhm. And so when. this is when Christ said it is finished on the  cross, he meant it. Anybody who dips back into. old covenant theology, it is not finished on  that cross. And that's what Talmudic Jews think.

So, how did it wind up becoming not just like this  eccentric boutique view, non-Christian view, but. it became the dominant position of evangelical.  Not exclusive. No, they're not they're not they. don't all think this and I think it is changing,  but for the past 40 years, it's been the dominant. view. Mhm. How did that happen? I think there's  a very nefarious I'm going to call them they.

right now behind all of this and I'm going to go  down some called conspiracy theory rabbit holes. or whatnot. I think the church and especially the  evangelical church is being used as a tool uh for. a far greater agenda that most people can't see  or fathom at the moment. I feel that so strongly. I can't see it either, but I feel that it's so  obvious. So what what is that agenda? Huckabe. said the quiet part out loud in your interview.  He said if they were to take the pro, you said you.

you positioned it, hey, well, why don't they  just take all the land? And you said, well, maybe they should. Or I'm paraphrasing there, but  whatever he said. Um, that was the quiet part out. loud. There is a group that wants to reclaim that  promised land, the original Nile to the Euphrates, and rebuild the third temple. And uh there's only  one thing that does in this book and it ushers. in the Antichrist. So why in God's name would  anybody want that? In God's name. That's right.

Yeah. Um and I I want to I'm here to present  this argument that right now the evangelical. church in and most Christian leadership is being  used for something far more nefarious than they. understand and can f and can fathom. They're all  blind. The blind lead the blind into a ditch and. they are being walked into a ditch rapidly in  the name of Jesus and in the name of this book. What What does that mean? Ush  ushering in the Antichrist.

Um. well, I'd get into my opinion cuz I don't know  like like I personally think is that where we. want to go? I I want you to tell the truth as you  understand it. Okay. This is my truth. I think the. antichrist is is power and ultimate power and  authority. It's institutional power. Um when. you look at the world, we you know, we were a  conquering world. People were moving out. Well,

once you conquer the world, it's all conquered.  Where do you go back to? We're not that smart. We go back to this. Well, we need to reconquer  the promised land. That's that's what I think is. there's a group that wants to retake that promised  land. They do believe this book has significant. power and so they want to reclaim it and they're  using dispensationalist arguments to do that for. the sake of controlling the world. For the sake  of controlling the world. Yeah. I mean that's just.

so clearly true. Yeah. That's so clearly true. And  it grieves me to say that I think the president of. the United States is may not fully understand that  theology or that argument, but clearly sees this. war in Iran as a way to achieve power over the  world. There's no doubt in my mind. Yeah. And this. book, the beautiful saving grace of this book book  is being weaponized to do it. So do you believe.

that there's a spiritual component to this? It's  not just like 100% I I think I I do firmly believe. there's a demonic component to this behind  it all. Um and the church is again the church. and its resources are being used to do it. That's  kind of obliquely described in the New Testament, right? In the deception that Jesus promises will  come at some point. The people you think are going. to save you are actually working to destroy you.  Well, Satan came as light and then he says, "My.

workers will come as light also." Right? That's  a very, very terrifying. So, if you're hoping. to understand the nature of evil, which I think  a lot of people are trying to understand, like. what does it look like? It's not just the obvious  monster under the bed stuff. No, true evil seems. like salvation. True evil comes as a halftruth. It  comes looking like Christ, sounding like Christ, but it's not Christ. And how do we know? How do we  know the difference between Christ and something.

that looks like Christ? You have to know his word,  his scripture. What are the fruits? Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gently. It  seems to me that people who are coming in the name. of God and doing God's will, who are holy, throw  off around them kind of an umbrella of peace, and they don't leave chaos in their wake. Like,  we can judge the tree by its fruit. This is just. my halfbaked Yeah. thought of in my living room  theology to myself. But you I only me running it. against you with deeper knowledge that we know  when someone's on the God's path because that.

person is at peace. That person is not seeking  power and control over others. That person is not. besided by greed or lust or pride obviously and  that person can admit fault. He's humble and that. his world the people around him are at peace.  They're not filled with right. I mean, if the. message is you're a good baker. I would I would  You baked it well. No, I mean, that that just all. seems super I understand everything on the most  obvious level. So, if it's not rocket science, the.

book Well, it kind of feels that way. It's not.  Well, because we've we've So, if you claim you're. you're acting in God's name and like speaking  God's word, then the people around you should. be at peace, right? The leader should have a good  father has happy children, correct? Right. Yeah. And a bad father has screwed up children. It's  like kind of that simple. It all flows down from. leadership. So, the world around a true Christian  leader should be a harmonious, peaceful world and.

the people should be thriving. Now, by which I  don't mean they're all getting rich. Yeah. They. may be poor. Yeah. But they should be joyful 100%.  And they should be content. I think contentment. is such a big part of this book. Tell me flesh  that out. I know that you're right, but I don't. quite understand how contentment is, you know,  there's this term called shalom, but contentment. is just being at peace in the position you're at.  Right. And it wasn't until I had my daughter that.

I actually under started to understand that cuz  I realized, hey, this isn't about me. This isn't. about Nathan anymore. This is about something so  much more profound and beautiful. And when I when. I had I didn't have my daughter. when when her  mom had had my daughter or our daughter uh it's. when I went back to this book and that's where I  started finding contentment and fulfillment and. you find fulfillment in Christ. He said I have  come to fulfill it all. I have fulfilled the Old. Testament. I have fulfilled the old covenants, the  Mosaic laws. Um and everybody goes, "Oh, Nathan,

that doesn't mean he abolished them." I didn't say  he abolished them. I said he fulfilled them into. something greater, which is Hebrews. It's what the  book of Hebrews is all about where of necessity. there takes place a a death of a priesthood there  there's a change in covenant also Christ ushered. in an entirely new covenant and that's right  through him it's through his teachings he is. the way the truth and the life and no one gets to  Jehovah except through him that's the only way and.

I didn't understand it I was raised in the church  my whole life I didn't understand it until I had. my daughter and I started reading the Bible cover  to cover here's the problem Tucker only 13% of. American Christians have ever read the book. How?  How about I show you a trailer of a movie, a two. and a half minute trailer, and you go, "This is my  favorite movie of all time. Done." You know, you. wouldn't do it. No, you wouldn't. You say, "Hey,  I need to see the whole movie cuz the other the. other 90 minutes might be total crap." Or it might  be completely different from what the trailer.

portrays. Yeah. Or maybe Nathan's description  to you of the movie is totally wrong. worse. So, a pastor's description of this book might be  totally wrong, but it just seems obvious that if. you're calling for violence against innocence,  what you're saying has no connection to what. Jesus said at all, right? Or am I just being too  autistic about this? No, no, you're on it. I voted. for Trump. Oh, well, yeah. I campaigned for Trump.  It was a lot. When I look back on it, I was sold a.

straight lie. You think? Yeah. And um I want no  wars. I believe in in Christ teaching peace and. love and loving your neighbor and we the and again  I'm gonna go back to something positive because. everybody always says everything's negative about  my conversations but the generosity of Christians. can transform our nation. We don't need that give  more. We need to be better stewards which would. be the biggest light to the world. And right  now it's going down a really dark path really.

quick. And in one breath on Easter Sunday, we have  pastors claiming similarity from Trump to Christ. in regards to the beatings and the lies. And then  the next day, he's threatening to blow up power. plants and bridges, hurting civilians, saying  [ __ ] Like literally the most disgusting evil in. a in a tweet that I could I've ever read. Totally  agree. From a president. And I'm like, wait, wait,

but but our Christian leaders are still going to  try to protect that and justify that. How dare. they? Yeah, I agree. It's it's disgusting at all  levels. And um we were talking about spiritual. war. I think there's a massive spiritual war going  on in the White House right now. And it starts. with the spiritual leaders that are standing  next to and over Trump. I think a lot of us.

were too cynical and approached this as theater,  which it may have been intended to be. You know, get whatever money hungry dispensationalists or,  you know, fallen screwed up people who don't have. real congregations and get them to sort of put the  impromater of the New Testament on what is clearly. in violation of like basic Christian principles.  And you know, let's get the evangelicals on board. for this. Mhm. I don't think that's the whole  story. I think this is these are instruments.

of spiritual war. These people, this is not just  theater. Like this is real. 100%. Yeah. Well, like. we live in a So when we look, let's go into the  Old Testament again, you know, the tabernacle, the. holy of holies, and then the outer the outer um  the outer rooms. There was a veil that separated. spiritual from physical. When Christ died on that  cross, what happened to that veil? It was rent in. half. Tore down, which meant the spiritual world  and the physical worlds combined. And hence the.

bridge from physical nation Israel to spiritual  nation. We are bridged now through something far. greater than physical nationality, genealogy, all  that. But that also brings deadly things with it. which is there's a darkness in in in the spiritual  realm as well. And we live in that right now. And. again, the devil comes as light. What better  way to completely steer off good, generous,

Christfallen Christians than sell something  that kind of looks like Christianity. create. institutions that have literally all the resources  of the world, but will keep you chained to their. pews. Again, we're going to go back. Christianity  is dangerous. The book of Acts, that church was. dangerous to power and institution. Right now,  the current institutional church structure is. being used as a weapon for illotten gain against  God's people. Against God's people, we're being.

used. the evangelical church. Most Christians are  being used to to kill children, women. H Yeah. And all in the name of this old covenant. Pete  Hogworth or whatever his name is, he he's quoting. that. Trump's quoting it. That's why you have to  read this thing as one story. It's one complete.

story of redemption. And so if you're looking to  Trump and looking to what we're doing and looking. to the nation state of Israel and saying, "Oh  yeah, this is why that's justified instead of. geopolitical reasoning," you are being duped and  you are saying it is not finished on that cross. Amazing. Amazing conversation. Thank you.  Yeah, I'll be thinking about it. Yeah, think about it. I don't know. I don't know what  I'm doing. I'm just I'm just doing my thing, bro.

You're speaking the truth. I I know that. Nathan,  thank you very much. Yeah. Thank you, Tucker.