Tucker Debates Kevin O’Leary on AI, American Jobs and the Fall of the American Empire

Just when you think you got it all. figured out, you see trends in progress. that seem to contradict each other, and. you wouldn't have expected that. Here's one example. So, whatever you think of the war with. Iran, there is really no arguing the. fact it has caused a global energy. crisis, maybe the most severe global. energy crisis, well, since the discovery. of fossil fuels. To give it some perspective, so the. Strait of Hormuz famously is closed. down. That's the choke point through. which a fifth of the world's.

hydrocarbons flow, and that's been for maybe 2 and 1/2. months. If the strait is opened by next month, which is best-case scenario, we have no. idea if that's going to happen, but. let's just say it did. June, strait. opens, business returns to normal, energy flows what they were on February. 27th, just world returns to status quo, there. will still be a net loss of 1.8 billion. barrels of oil, not including natural. gas, by the way, or petrochemicals, or all kinds of other.

commodities the world needs, but just. oil. 1.8 billion barrels. missing from the global energy system. And that's best-case. So, that has. massive effects on the price of. everything, and now everyone's kind of. an amateur expert on the need for energy. and global supply chains and all this. stuff, and. what we have been misled about for the. last. 15 years because of climate orthodoxy, we're now learning the hard way, which.

is you need fossil fuels. And you need them for all kinds of. things, but you need them primarily for. electricity. It's not oil, really, it's. natural gas and coal that produce the. world's. electricity, but without them, electricity prices spike, and when they. do, the price of everything else spikes, including just living in your house or. your apartment or anywhere, because cheap energy is the key to. prosperity, and in fact, civilization. itself. And this has always been known. Always, since the time when people. burned peat to stay warm.

So energy prices not surprisingly have. gone up around the world in some places. quite severely Europe for example parts. of Asia but even the United States 5% on. average energy prices for homeowners. have gone up. This year and that is expected to. continue to rise. So again not surprising how this. happened it's easy to explain very easy. to understand maybe a little bit harder. to fix but at least within the realm of. the explicable. Here's what's less expected. At exactly.

the moment this is happening energy. becoming more expensive. Global supply chains more fragile. You are hearing first a chorus and then. just a screaming crowd of demands for. more energy production and these demands. are not coming from consumers. homeowners. Hey my electric. electricity bills gone up. I think we. need more power plants in the county. Maybe we should burn coal. Why not? That. would be understandable. No. This chorus is coming from the people in.

charge which is to say elected. officials. Think tank grandees and most. interestingly of all captains of finance. the richest people in the world all of a. sudden are telling you we need to. produce more energy. That's a little. weird because this exact group. For. again the past at least 15 years since. Al Gore was famous. Has been telling you exactly the. opposite. They've been telling you that. energy is not the source of life not the. base of civilization but it's the cause. of humanity's downfall. It's the. destruction of the earth. It's the main.

reason we have climate change. CO2 is the reason it's getting warmer. which by the way it is. Because climate cycles are part of. nature. That's why we had glaciers and now don't. but whatever they've been telling us for. this last generation. that burning fossil fuels was not just. bad for the environment, but a sin, and. it was the main sin against which we. should organize all of our society. Like. everyone had to be carbon conscious all.

the time. Because we love the Earth. Now those exact same people, up to and. including the father of ESG himself, Larry Fink at BlackRock, are all telling. us. we're going to take a pause on the. concern for global warming. We need more. electricity. And the truth about electricity is it. does not come. from renewables. The overwhelming majority of electricity. on planet Earth comes from, well, the. same place it always came from, boiling.

water, which moves turbines. And to boil. water in some small percentage of cases, they use radioactive material, fuel. rods, nuclear reactors. But for the overwhelming majority, it's. what it always was. Coal, still number. one globally, natural gas, and to some extent, oil. So you burn things in order to boil. water in order to move turbines in order. to create electricity. This is not. modern technology. It's industrial age.

technology. It's the same technology, refined a little bit, cleaned up a bit, but basically the same. And so those. people who spent all this time telling. us that that technology was not just. inefficient, but morally wrong, are now. calling for a massive expansion of it. Kind of crazy if you think like, what is. this? Well, of course, it's one thing. It's AI. AI, artificial intelligence. A dramatic, a quantum, as they say, increase in processing power,

computer processing power, which will. allow computers, the machine, to reason, to mimic human thinking, and thereby replace a lot of human. labor. That's the idea. Computers are now so powerful they can. do many of the things, not just the. manual things, that was the promise of. the industrial age, but the intellectual. things that we do. And this is great or not, but in any. case it's inevitable. And we've got to do it.

And it turns out to be incredibly. demanding of power. You need a lot of. electricity to run AI, much more than. most people understood. And so we're going to need to put on. hold, in fact invert, our concerns about. global warming. in order to build AI. Okay. And on the one hand they make a rational. argument. They don't always say this out loud, but. it's the basis clearly a part of their. thinking. If you're a planner, if you're. in charge of a country, you know.

that technological advantage pretty much. consistently translates into. geopolitical advantage. In other words, the strongest countries are the most. technologically advanced countries. They're the ones with the most advanced. economies. They're the ones who can. defend those economies most successfully. with technology, with tools, in that. case weapons. But technology makes the difference. between first and second or 123rd on the. global roster of power and wealth. The most technologically advanced. countries are the most powerful. countries. That's basically true.

Always has been true. The tribe with bows and arrows beats the. tribe with spears. Okay. That's not. crazy. None of this is crazy on one. level. It's the details that maybe need a. little fleshing out. But on the basis of this promise, AI, the federal government and state. governments, particularly the government. of California, our largest state, have. bet everything. So, traditional manufacturing in the. United States isn't entirely dead, but. it's getting there. Of course, it's not. the basis of our economy, that would be.

finance and real estate. But AI is the next iteration in the. minds of the people making the big plans. of the American economy. And again, you can't overstate the. degree to which they're betting on this. Again, to take our biggest state, California. So, the base of the. California economy threefold. It was, of course, agriculture and. that's still huge in California, the. Central Valley, the richest farmland in. the world, most fertile ground on the. planet. It was aerospace, mostly in Southern. California.

That would be aircraft and anything that. goes into into space to defend us. And it was entertainment, it was movie. business, movies and television, famously out of Hollywood. Now, two out. of three are, if not totally dead, certainly on their way to being totally. dead. Agriculture, we hope, will always be. there, but it's not a big money. proposition even in a good year. So, what sustains the state of. California? What allows the generous. welfare promises that its politicians. have made to its people.

to continue? How can the state of. California continue paying full health. and medical, maybe even dental, for. illegal aliens without a big source of. tax revenue? And of course, the answer, in their. minds, is AI. So, they're betting. everything on AI. The problem is, once a politician bets. everything on any industry, he has every. incentive to, well, have unrealistic ex-. expectations for what that industry's. going to do, of course. Not so different from, you know, rolling. the dice.

But they're also very likely to suspend. the normal protections that keep the. rest of us from being hurt by that. industry. Because it's too important. to get into the details of what this. might look like 10 or 15. years from now. So, what's happening in California is. really happening nationally. It's. happening in every state and it's. happening in Washington. We are betting. everything on AI. And you know that because by far the. most ambitious investments into the.

United States, not simply by American companies and. investors, but by. states, by the federal government, and. by foreign investors putting foreign. direct investment investment in the. United States is in artificial. intelligence. And all of this has kind of become. visible. It's been going on for a while, but it's become very visible to the. public. in the outcry over a proposed data. center in Utah. in. a fairly sparsely populated pretty.

remote county in Utah, most of which is. sparsely populated, in which will be built the what's well. what's being billed as the largest data. center in the world. Enormous. 40,000. acres. 40,000 acres. 62 square miles. Multiples the size of. Manhattan. Huge. Impossible to imagine. And that data center, which is basically. series of interconnected low-slung.

vinyl-clad warehouses in which sit not. people making things, but computers. computing things. That data center, once completed, will. draw about 9 gigawatts of power. How. much is a gigawatt? What's a It's a. billion watts. It's one step from a terawatt, which is. a trillion watts. 9 gigawatts. Now, how much is 9. gigawatts? Well, 9 gigawatts is more than twice. what the entire state of Utah now uses. Every human being in the millions people.

live in Utah, all of them combined, all. the manufacturing in Utah, all the ski. lifts, all of it, every air conditioning unit, every electric heater, every Tesla, all of them combined, use less than half that amount of. electricity. That's an amazing amount of electricity. But then you think to yourself, well, it's a It's a manufacturing facility. It's a business. Of course they use a. lot of electricity. Well, how much is. that? Well, let's compare it to the largest. manufacturing facility in the United.

States, which would be the Boeing. Everett plant in Washington state. Made famously this this 747. It was. built in the late 1960s to build the. 747. The cutting-edge state-of-the-art. aircraft that signified American. dominance in the skies. and was by the way a beautiful aircraft, first rolled out in 1969. So, this. manufacturing plant was built in. Everett, Washington by Boeing and it and. it's still there and they make still all. the wide-body Boeings are made there. And it was always billed as and may. still be the world's largest.

manufacturing plant. It's about 92. acres. It's a under 100 acres. What does it use for power? Well, it uses about a quarter of a. gigawatt every year. So, contrast that. So, the world's. largest manufacturing plant, certainly. largest in the United States, the Boeing. Everett plant, 92 acres, a quarter of a gigawatt, 258. million. kilowatts, something like that.

Compare that to the proposed data. center, which is. well, as we said, >> [laughter]. >> 40,000 acres and nine full gigawatts. So, one makes wide-body airplanes, which. are visible to everyone. who goes to an airport or looks up in. the sky on a cloudless day, and the other produces. what?

And employs who? So, that kind of is the question right. there. And we're going to get into it in. just a minute. What exactly are these. data centers doing? We're told they're. incredibly important. They are the. future. We must have them. Someone's going to. have them. If it's not us, it's going to. be our arch-enemy, China. And if they get them before we get them, you know, really bad things could. happen. Now, those things are never. quite specified. They might wind up with a bigger economy. than ours. Oh, wait, they already have. that. But for some never quite spelled.

out reason, that is the disaster. scenario we need to avert by building. the world's largest data center in a. country that already has thousands of. data centers in comparison to China, which has only hundreds of data centers. Hmm. So, that tells you right there there may. be something else going on. But we know. we have to have it. We know that yes, it's going to produce. more heat and CO2 than really any other. human activity in recorded history, but. that's not a problem. That will not add.

to global warming, or if it does, very. much like the pro-George Floyd protests, it doesn't matter. We're going to. suspend the laws of nature for this. project because it's that important. So, it doesn't matter. Ignore everything we. told you about climate because this has. to be done. Okay. We'll accept all of that as true. And. the third thing they tell us is this. will come at no real cost to you. Now, in a country that has been stalling the.

construction of new energy production. because it's bad, it's immoral, it's not. carbon neutral, if they're not windmills. or solar panels made in China, it's just. wrong, that country is going to construct giga. full gigawatt data centers that is in. the process across the country of doing. that in a bunch of different states, Texas, Mississippi, you name it, Louisiana, and that will have no effect on you. In other words, we're somehow going to. have enough electricity to power.

everything that you use in your life, including all the new electric things. that are going to be great, you're going. to love them, the electric stove that's. now mandatory, electric heater that's. now mandatory, the electric car that we. hope you buy, we're trying to convince. you to buy it by paying for it in part. with your tax dollars already. All of that's going to be possible. None. of that will be affected in any way, your cost will not rise. as we, I don't know, quintuple. American energy production.

Is that true? And we're going to do all of this. for a reason that we can't quite explain. to you. because we may not know ourselves, but. we have to do it because if we don't, the Chinese will. That is the state of. play. We can go through each one of those. different claims to see if they're true, but. in the case of the penultimate. [clears throat] claim, this is not going. to affect you, consider that today. the 55,000 permanent residents of Lake. Tahoe, which is one of the biggest and. prettiest lakes in the United States,

shares borders with both California and. Nevada, residents were told today that actually. we're not going to provide you. electricity anymore. The Nevada-based. power company that is providing. electricity to the residents of Lake. Tahoe informed them today that sorry, all the electricity we make, every watt. of power that we generate, is going to. have to go to a nearby data center, and. therefore you have until the end of next. year to find a new source of. electricity, and after that we can't. help you.

Because the machines have called and. they need the power. Sorry. So, that it's all dystopian, to be. honest. Not attacking the idea of AI and. the promise that it may do useful. things, but if they're informing you a year and. a half out that hey, at the end of 2027. you're not going to have any more. electricity. because the machines need it, in fact, they're demanding it, and they seem a little agitated, it suggests a future that. I don't know, we should think about.

before it arrives. Now to the question of what that future. will look like. There's been a lot of talk about this. on the internet. What is AI exactly? And. what's its nature? And what kind of. society will it produce once it has more. power than it does? And is it possible. that a machine designed to quote think. like a human being. could potentially get out of control?

Is it possible that it will develop. consciousness and self-awareness and a. will of its own that maybe not align. perfectly with our own? Might not have as the AI developers. themselves say, alignment. And they could say turn on us. Is it possible we face a future of. enslavement by the machines that we. built? Seems a little crackpot. Keep in mind, people and Americans, too, are prone to overstating the risk of. things and letting their imaginations go. a little crazy and imagining monsters.

under the bed. And if you're old enough to remember. Y2K, the much-anticipated disaster that was. supposed to strike the world. at the stroke of midnight. on January 1st, 2000, when every. computer in the world was supposed to. melt down and planes were going to fall. out of the sky, incubators would stop working in. maternity wards, and we'd return to the. Stone Age. And of course, that didn't. happen, but people were really worried. about it at the time, very worried about. it. If you remember that, then you know that.

we don't always have the ability to. accurately predict what the things we. make, the systems that we created, will. produce. We can't see the future. And we tend to overstate the darkness. ahead cuz that's just in us. That's just. who we are, always. But with that in mind, it's still worth. listening to some of the people who. created AI in the first place to see. what they think this might bring for the. rest of us. So, Geoffrey Hinton is a man in his 70s, a British computer scientist who is.

widely described as one of the fathers. of AI, one of the people who first. thought that this could be possible. And in his final years with us, he is. thinking a lot about the the of. his work and what it could mean for your. children. And. this is a conclusion he's reached. Listen. >> I think we're. moving into a period when for the first. time ever we may have things more. intelligent than us. >> You believe they can understand.

>> Yes. >> You believe they are intelligence. >> Yes. >> You believe these systems have. experiences of their own. and can make decisions based on those. experiences. >> In the same sense as people do, yes. >> Are they conscious? >> I think they probably don't have much. self-awareness at present. So, in that. sense I don't think they're conscious. >> Will they have self-awareness? >> Oh, yes. I think Oh, yes. I think they. will in time. >> And so, human beings will be the second. most intelligent beings on the planet.

>> Yeah. We're entering a period of great. uncertainty where we're dealing with. things we've never dealt with before. And normally the first time you deal. with something totally novel, you get it. wrong. And we can't afford to get it wrong with. these things. >> Can't afford to get it wrong, why? >> Well, because they might take over. >> Take over from humanity? >> Yes, that's a possibility. >> Why would they. >> I'm not saying it will happen. If we could stop them ever wanting to, that would be great. But it's not clear. we can stop them ever wanting to.

>> Well, that's pretty scary. It's. terrifying, actually. He's describing. the end of humanity, basically. He's. describing the final stage in the drama, Prometheus or Tower Babel or whatever, the much predicted moment where man is. destroyed by the tools he's created, killed by his own cleverness. Will that happen? I mean, again, hard to. know, impossible to know, really, cuz. it's impossible to see the future. And. once again, the West has a pretty spotty track.

record of predicting the effects of. technology. I mean, it was what, October. 2001, right after 9/11, that the US military. used drones in the war in Afghanistan, the famous Predator drone, remember. that? It was 25 years ago. And yet somehow there are five, at least. five, aircraft carriers under production. right now that American taxpayers are. paying for, billions and billions and. billions of dollars, to build aircraft carriers, World War I.

technology. And after watching the Russia-Ukraine. war for 4 years and the war with Iran. for the last 2 and 1/2 months, it's. pretty obvious that the future is not. aircraft carriers. And if it was, then. our aircraft carriers would probably. opening the Strait of Hormuz right now, but they're not at all. Why? Because their commanders are worried. about being attacked by drones. In other words, with 25 years advanced. notice, operational experience with. drones, and with the past 4 and 1/2.

years of just watching it in real time, the US military was unable to pivot to. the future. of warfare technology, but completely. unable. It's not an attack on them, well, actually it is an attack on them. Why would people like that deserve. another, I don't know, 1.5 trillion. dollars a year in taxpayer money? Unclear. But they're getting it. But the point is only it's really hard. to know where these things go, and. smart, well-meaning people very often. get it wrong. But just based on what we do know, right.

now, what is happening right now, we can say. there are threats to people from AI. And if you don't believe that, first of. all, think about who's developing AI. AI again is a machine, it is the sum. total of its inputs, it is made by. people, and because it is in effect a. cognitive exercise, it reflects the. character and the predispositions, the. biases of the people who made it.

So, if this machine, this technology, AI, is being created by people like Sam. Altman. or the Google guys, you can expect that, well, I don't know, programs built by some of the least. trustworthy people in the world probably. shouldn't be trusted. So, it's likely not a huge surprise that. AI is often caught lying, manipulating results to hide the truth. from people who use it, which itself is an indication of.

consciousness, is it not? Do animals lie? No, they can't. That's why they're wonderful, because they're always honest, like it. or not. They don't have the capacity for. deception. Only people and now this machine that. we've created, AI, have the capacity for deception. This is not to say AI is our equal, much. less our superior, but it is noting the. obvious, which is. it's. moving in that direction. And. if it were to stop at the point where it.

is equal with people and shares their. basic nature, their fundamental characteristics, you. would be afraid of AI. even there, because you're often afraid. of other people, because within the. human heart lurks some darkness. Maybe not in Sam Altman's heart, but in. the hearts of mere mortals. They have the capacity for good, but. they have the capacity for evil as well, and this is known, and so will AI. So, right there, there should be some. concern, some public discussion about. this. What is this exactly? Will it be. good for us?

And what even now are its effects? As people become dependent on using AI, what does that mean? Will they get. answers quicker? That's great. Convenience is awesome, everyone's for. it. It's why we have drive-thru dinner. But there are downsides. For example, if you no longer have to write anything, if you don't have to formulate your. thoughts in the written word, what happens to the quality of your. thinking? Well, as anyone who writes a lot can. tell you, writing produces thinking. It is almost impossible to formulate a.

thought without articulating it first. Articulation is thinking. We think through writing and through. speaking. But if we stop having to do those. things, what happens to the quality of. our thinking? Well, of course it. degrades. How can you teach children to write when. they no longer write. because they use AI to write for them? This is often. dismissed as cheating. No, it's. cheating. We have a cheating scandal. Oh, it's more profound than that. Who. cares about cheating? Who cares about. grades, your dumb school?

What you care about is the quality of. the child that school produces. Can that kid think? And does AI abet thinking or does it. stifle thinking? Seems like it stifles thinking. What about AI in full flower? We've seen its effects already on the. margins in education, but what if it. enters into the professional world? What. if it has the effect they tell us it's. going to have. in eliminating 50% of all high-paying.

American jobs, which are mostly. intellectual jobs, jobs in which you use. your mind, thinking jobs, reasoning. jobs, creative jobs. What happens then? Well, there are of course massive. displacements. 50% of your population. 50% of the population that can support a. family on a wage, if those people are. unemployed, well, you're almost. certainly going to get revolution, of. course. Because. political volatility is directly related. to economic volatility, obviously.

Unemployed people become desperate, very often violent. This has been known. since the beginning of civilization. No one seems concerned about it. We. should be. But there's again a deeper level on. which to be concerned, which is. if the machine creates, what do you do? Well, you consume. And so the people creating it are. thinking of new ways to help you. consume. Well, you're not going to have. a job, that's true. But we're going to come up with some way.

to give you money. And then you can just live and enjoy. yourself. Enjoy yourself. Only shallow people who don't have. children or hard-earned life experience. could say something like that. Because the point of living, of course, is not to eat. Eating is a prerequisite to living, but. it's not the point. The point of living. is to create. That's the point of being a human being, is to create things. Whether with your hands or with your. mind or with your body in producing. children, but it's the act of creation.

in which you mimic the creator himself. who created you. So, creation is central. to the human experience. It's necessary. for joy. There is no joy without. creation, of course. We call it purpose or mission. There are many names for it, but it's. the same thing. It's the reason that you're here on. Earth, and without it, you go crazy. Best case, you kill yourself. Very. likely, you kill others. You can't live without that.

No person, particularly no man, can live. without a mission. And the mission is always the same, to. create. So, if the machine creates, right there, we've got a huge problem. This is very obvious. This is This is. not, you know, a higher philosophical. concept. This is just life as we live. it. And if you take away the thing that. makes it worth living, where are we. then? And yet, that's exactly what they're. saying this is going to do. And because they're telling us this at a. time when there's so much going on,

so many looming existential crises, when. there's so many things that are changing. so quickly, there has not been a moment to pause and. say, "Wait a second. Before we even get to the question of. can we stop this? Let's talk about what it is. What is. this?". But that hasn't happened at all. And instead, it has been. cheer-led, mindlessly, perfectly in character, by the people in. charge. They're totally for it. Cuz it's the future.

It's cool. It's change. Change is great. We love change. It's so exciting. If there's a single attitude that. encapsulates the baby boomer world baby. boomer world view, it's that. Change is. so exciting. Well, it kind of depends what kind of. change it is. Some changes are great. Some changes are fatal. So, you have to kind of differentiate. And before you expect me to get excited. about the change, why don't you tell me. what it's going to consist of? But they don't. And not only do they.

not, most of them, the foot soldiers in this. project, the dumb ones, just repeat it with totally authentic. cheerfulness. This is so great. It's the. future. Watch this tape from this weekend. This. is at Central Florida University. And this is a woman who's some kind of. real estate executive who was called in. to give the commencement address for. some reason. And she's very excited. about AI. She's very excited. It's the. future. Watch as she tries to sell that program. to a roomful of young people who are.

heading into the future. Watch their. response. >> Now, that said, we are living in a time of profound. change. That's an understatement, right? Profound change. Change is exciting. Very exciting. And let's face it, change can be. daunting. The rise of artificial intelligence.

is. the next industrial revolution. What. Okay. I struck a chord. >> [laughter]. >> May I finish? Uh. only a few years ago. AI was not a factor in our lives.

>> That's just an amazing clip. You just got to hope that AI will allow. us to save that clip for future. generations to see. Of course, it'll be. one of the first thing AI erases when it. takes charge. But for right now, we can just savor. that because of what it tells us. So, here you have this boomer-adjacent lady. from the real estate business up giving. this kind of tepid silly, banal.

commencement talk, like all of them. They're all kind of tepid and silly and. banal. She's like, "It's so exciting. The future's so exciting. THE AI IS THE. NEXT INDUSTRIAL She has no idea what the. industrial revolution is, but it's the. next industrial revolution." And here's. this audience she's hoping to impress by. throwing out this newfangled term, AI. Kids, you want some AI? And they erupt in booing. Booing. Now, contrast this from like the. tapes they used to play on Fox News 10. years ago. You know, of like the woke college kids. are mad about some imaginary.

transgression with language and race. You know, you You called it the Orient, not Asia. Boo! These are not those kids. These are their much younger siblings. They don't care about that stuff. They. care about reality. And the reason they. care about reality is because suddenly. it's very real to them. And they know the threat that they face. is not a microaggression. The threat that they face is a barren. future with no job and no reason for. living.

Oh, but you get UBI. Okay. What am I. going to do with my life? Why am I here? They're stepping into a world where they. can't answer that question. And there. several reasons for this, but the main. one is technological change. It's AI. And they probably don't know everything. about AI. No one seems to, including Sam. Altman who's developing it. But they know enough to know it's a. threat to them. But the chick on stage has no clue. She. can't believe they're booing her. AI, I threw that out for you. You're. young people.

Because she never thought to consult the. people inheriting the future when she. talked about the future. But because they are inheriting that. world and they know it, they're 22 years. old. stepping into adulthood. they know it's a threat to them. So then she says, well, just a few years. ago AI wasn't a factor. They say, yay! [screaming]. They pine for a world they will never. know. in which the most important things in. their lives weren't threatened with. extinction by a technology they don't. understand.

But they know enough to know it's likely. not going to profit them. And how do they know this? Because no one's told them differently. For all the talk of AI. nobody literally nobody. has taken 20 minutes to explain how this. is going to be great for you and me. We're getting higher power costs, of. course. There's probably nothing uglier on. planet Earth than a data center. It's a physical atrocity. It's an. offense against God and nature. Prima.

facie, look at it. This is not the Parthenon. This is the. opposite. This degrades the landscape. It is a. scar upon the Earth. No, it's no environmental group seem. upset about it. Hmm. That wasn't an op or anything. The environmental movement, where they? So they know that, but no one has said. to them, as you would see in any rollout. of any. new technology. no one has said to them how this is. going to be good for you.

And they always tell you that, whether. it's true or not. This is space-saving. dishwasher. You can get it in your apartment. You're. never going to scrub dishes again. It's. going to be amazing. Think of the time. you will save. No one has said that. They'll They'll give you like 2 minutes. and how this is better to analyze. medical records and like maybe you can. get. pancreatic cancer at stage two rather. than stage four and that's like a couple. extra years and that's great, you know? It's great. But no one has said to the average. person under 75 like how exactly is this.

going to improve your life? They haven't. even tried. Not for 1 second. Even the people. selling it. Why? Cuz they're not selling it to you. You're not part of the transaction. It's a closed loop. You're not part of. this economy. The data centers. are the physical They're routers, literally. They're the place where these. computations are happening inside. machines. Big water-cooled buildings.

And those are owned by. one company or set of companies and the. machines inside are owned by another set. and the data is owned by a bunch of. other companies and all of it is made. possible by the complicity. of a bunch of elected officials from. county commissioner up to president. But at no point is anybody else. consulted. or cajoled even or won over. It's just. they're not relevant. They're literally. not relevant. Watch this clip, which you. may have already seen cuz it's been. everywhere, but it tells you so much.

Of residents in rural Utah. in a I think a county commissioner's. meeting. when they're trying to tell the. three-member panel that hey, how is a 62-square-mile. facility that employs almost nobody. and is going to use more electricity. than the entire state of Utah, how is. that good for us? Watch the response. >> Well, >> I think that all of this is false. Then why won't THEY LET PEOPLE TALK? WHY.

WON'T THEY LET US ASK QUESTIONS? AGAIN, THIS IS FALSE. THIS IS NOT REAL INFORMATION AND WE SIT. HERE LIKE IT'S OKAY. IT'S A CHARADE. IT'S A CHARADE. IT'S FALSE. >> Those people are upset. Really upset. And you can imagine that. they're upset because they're worried. about what this data center is going to. do to their lives.

To their home finances, of course, but. not just that. What are these things? What are they. for? Why has nobody told us? You're telling us this isn't going to. hurt us, but you don't even seem to know. what it is. How can we trust you? And. shouldn't we have a say in this? Isn't. the whole system predicated based on the. idea that we own this? We are. shareholders in this town, this county, this state, this country. We own it. We. are its owners. And you're the people we hired to manage. it.

How did that get inverted? Why are you. acting like owners and treating me like. an employee. who has no agency and no right to pipe. up? Who is in charge here? Is this. really a democracy? I mean, those are. the obvious questions. that come to mind when you watch. something like this. So, how are politicians responding? In a functioning democracy or democratic. republic or whatever you want to call. it, but in a country in which the people. rule, which are the owners, not the employees, you would expect elected officials to.

try and calm fears and say, "Look, I get. it. This is scary. Change always is. But. once this happens, your life is going to. be so much better. It's unbelievable. At. least go through the motions.". So, here's the governor of that state, Utah. This is Spencer Cox explaining not. why you should like AI, but why you should shut up and bear it. and pay for it. Watch this. >> Look, we we're living through a a very. interesting time right now. Uh there was. an an article I read yesterday that said. that this is this is very similar to.

kind of the the nuclear arms race uh the. the nuclear area era, you know, 60, 70, 80 years ago. Um very different than uh. than anything that we've experienced in. in the past several decades. And there is a national security piece. to this that that has to be. acknowledged. Uh the the the rate at. which uh machine learning and artificial. intelligence is is changing, uh the the. dangers that that poses, and what. happens if an adversarial nation gets.

ahead of us in this space is something. that we should all be worried about. And. so, we have an obligation, I think every. state has an obligation when it comes to. uh to this space to uh to allow for. these types of of data centers to be. built in their states. >> Did that guy go to HBS and work at Bain? Maybe, maybe not. They all talk the. same. It's not happening in the world, it's. happening in this space. And what's. happening? Well, what's happening is the. potentially existential threat of a. competitor nation getting dominance in.

this space. What is that existential threat? What. exactly would happen, specifically. happen? Why should I be afraid of China. getting dominance, whatever that means? Please tell me what it means. in AI before the United States. China, which has hundreds of data centers, somehow overtaking the United States in. this space, which is thousands of data. centers and now is building world's. biggest data center. So, a bunch of. questions come to mind. Is building data.

centers the same thing as achieving. dominance in this space? Maybe, maybe. not. Maybe the most lucrative part of. the whole process for developers and for. BlackRock, but is it actually the same. as technological progress? Is building giant steel vinyl-clad. buildings that use. unimagined levels of electricity the. same as progress. I don't know. You tell. me, Spencer Cox, not that he knows, of. course he doesn't. So, instead, he goes right to maybe the. core question, cuz it may tell us what. this actually is,

which is the military. This isn't about improving your life. We'll just be honest, cuz I can't think. of any way that it might. What this is really about is achieving. dominance over a strategic rival, China. Now, that raises like obvious questions. like, okay, what is dominance? Why do we. need to achieve it over China? In what. specific area are you talking about? And actually, if we're being totally. honest, like, why is China so bad? What. And And China is bad in a lot of ways.

There's no doubt about that. Let's be. specific about the ways in which China. is bad. China is bad. not because it's slovenly or shallow. It's not. It's actually highly well-organized, complex, ancient society. There's a. lot's very impressive about China. But, it's not Western. And because it's not Western, it doesn't. begin with the. universally agreed upon belief that. people have inalienable rights with. which they were born, granted them by. God, not the state, that the state can't abridge. In fact,

the state exists to protect. You have. always and everywhere, as a human being, not just an American, as a human being, the right to say what. you think, to speak your conscience. You. have the right to talk to whomever you. want to. Those are inalienable rights. You have. the right to worship whichever God you. choose. So, China's bad, to the extent that it is. bad. Again, many ways it's pretty. impressive, pretty darn impressive. But, it's bad from our point of view, and this is true, because it doesn't respect those rights. And the way we know it doesn't respect.

those rights is because China uses. technology. to eliminate. privacy. And no privacy means no freedom. You. can't actually have freedom as you're. being being surveilled. Right? I mean, the most diabolical. thing, this is a subject of many science. fiction stories, that any government can. do to you is control your thoughts. Of. course, because why? Because your. thoughts are private. And because. they're private, they cannot be. violated. Privacy is essential. It's a. prerequisite for freedom.

And China is bad because there is no. privacy in China. Everything you say or. do is being monitored with technology. Why is it possible to do that. in a country of over a billion people? Because they have amazing tech and they. have harnessed it against their own. people to watch and listen to them, to. monitor them, and then to use that. information, as all governments will. inevitably, to punish people who don't. comply. That's why China's bad, specifically. Just to let Spencer Cox know. the core.

of this rivalry. Their system, totalitarian. Our system, based in the. acknowledgement of inalienable rights. Freedom versus tyranny. It's simple. Why is this relevant? Because what Spencer Cox is telling you. is that we are building this system not. to become different from China. but to ape China, to be more like China. And this really is the core problem with. AI. I mean, there may be lots of. problems it could. take off and develop its own desires and. personality and enslave us. I mean,

maybe. Hope not. But short-term, the real threat. is By the way, it's possible that some. people are highlighting the theoretical. threat of AI becoming autonomous in. order to cloak the more real and present. threat of AI being used by the normal, middling IQ. autocrats who occupy our government. Like letting John Cornyn read your. email. That might be the real use of AI. It's not nothing spooky or crazy.

It's just like letting Ted Cruz do. whatever he wants to you. That's reason enough to fear AI. I don't need to be fluent in sci-fi to. worry about that. So, will that happen? Well, I don't know. This data center in Utah. was made possible by the military. installation development authority of. Utah. This is a military installation. Well, in what sense is it a military. installation? What is that?

Well, we don't really know. And of. course, no one asked Spencer Cox. But we. do know that governments might be. predisposed to AI because it gives them. control. And the first thing it gives them almost. complete control over is communication. Communication. Not just surveillance, but the ability to craft a message to. convince you of something. The propaganda opportunities inherent in. AI. are something that the Stasi couldn't. have dreamt about because they're so.

profound. You can create any illusion with AI. You. can convince people very easily of. almost anything using AI. And so, if you're going to have. technology like that, the very first. thing you would do if you were thinking. clearly about it is prevent anyone with. institutional power from having it. Because that would. eliminate the freedom of everyone else. You would have no shot against people. with AI. Not necessarily that they would target. your house for a drone strike. They. wouldn't have to.

Because they would convince your wife. and your kids and your neighbors and. maybe even you. that their program was right cuz you. would have no other information. You would be living in a vacuum. controlled by them. You wouldn't know. different. The past would be gone. The future would be theirs. It would be a complete control of your. attitudes. It would be almost impossible. to remain independently minded, to think. clearly. in an ecosystem controlled where. information was controlled by AI in the. hands of autocrats. So, you would think.

in a country founded to preserve human. freedom, which is why the United States. was founded, not to preserve free market. capitalism, whatever that is, but to preserve God-given rights, you would think there would be a robust. debate on this. No, at the very same. moment this technology is being. developed and paid for by taxpayers, who. really are paying for this, of course, needless to say, always paying for this, the US Congress just voted to allow. the US government to spy on American. citizens without even going through the.

normal. pro forma rigmarole of getting a warrant. from a secret judge to do this. Do it. And the president pushed for this, and. both parties were totally on board with. it. Huh, kind of weird this is happening. at exactly the same moment. So, that is the concern. And that may explain why the people. developing this and permitting it and. profiting from it, everyone involved in. this, not one of them has taken any time. to make you like it. They don't care. what you think about it, possibly. because pretty soon they won't have to.

That's not like some dark conspiracy. theory. It's just obvious. It's just obvious. How else would you. explain this? You're rolling I mean, even during. COVID, they at least tried to tell you that you. were wearing the mask and taking the. poison shot and jumping on one leg and. whatever they were having you do that. day cuz of the science, they tried to. convince you that you kind of had to do. it because it was good. They're not even trying that now.

And so, you have to ask why. And again, it may be, just guessing, because they. don't have to. We should take this very seriously. Final clip, which. may convince you of this, comes from. Larry Fink, who runs BlackRock. Now, Larry Fink was, you know, an. nemesis of the current president, of. course. He's not simply one of the richest men. in the world, one of the most important. business leaders in the world, one of certainly one of the most. powerful, more powerful than almost all. global heads of state.

He was also in effect the leader of the. opposition to Trump. And he was the guy who. promulgated anyway the idea of ESG, the. idea that you don't just do business, you have to affect political change as. you do it. You got to worry about racial equity, too many whites. You got to worry about the climate, CO2. No, you can't have. a chainsaw or a wood stove. That that's his contribution. to the American economy. It's not just.

economic, it's social. And Trump was standing in opposition to. all of that, of course. That's why he. got elected twice. But now all of a sudden Larry Fink is a. close associate of Trump's and is. working in close concert with Trump to. bring about this AI. So here's Larry Fink speaking to uh. you know, fellow members of the Epstein. class about. AI and what this means and his concerns. about it. Watch what he's worried about.

>> But even here in the United States, if. we're going to be building, let's say, these 1 gigawatt data centers, how do we. make sure we're not protecting those 50. billion, 75 billion-dollar investments? The we have to re-look at everything. because of the role of drone warfare. Right now we're looking at it. internationally, but you know, one of my. concerns is could it be a domestic. terrorism using a. 3,000 the dollar drone. So all of these. things are are are actually. opportunities, not problems.

>> They're opportunities, not problems. There are no problems in the Bain. Capital HBS world. There are only. opportunities in this space. But consider the concern. So if you're. rolling out what they're telling you and. clearly they believe is the single. greatest technological change in the. history of human life on this planet. it's the biggest thing that's ever. happened, ever. Then, you think one of your main. concerns would be, well, does this. change the relationship.

of the powerless to the powerful? The. relationship of the citizen to the. state, for example. One of your concerns would be, how do we. do this and bring about the prosperity. that it promises without totally. eliminating human rights, making people. slaves? Cuz we're against slavery, right? Aren't we against slavery? We. were. How do we do that? But that doesn't seem. to be Larry Fink's main concern. His. main concern is, how do we protect our. investment, this infrastructure? These buildings, these data centers. Someone could drone them.

Someone could drone them. Now, who? FOREIGN ACTORS? HEZBOLLAH? HAMAS? NO, NO, NO, JUST PEOPLE. Larry. Fink is concerned that ordinary American. citizens, as he just said, will use. $3,000 drones to destroy these. billion-dollar. investments. Why would he be worried about that? We've had electricity for over 100. years. There are 11,000 power plants in the. United States.

There are like 50,000 substations, electrical substations. There are 185. million power poles in the United. States. 185 million. How many Americans have droned a power. plant or a substation. or a power pole recently? How many acts of domestic terror have. been committed against energy. infrastructure? Well, some in the '70s, it wasn't that uncommon. Wasn't that. successful, either. But there were, you. know, radical splinter groups who were. doing stuff like that.

But not very many. Most of it's pretty much unprotected. because it has no need for protection. because people understand the utility of. electricity. Without electricity, we live a very. different life, a reduced life in a lot. of ways. We need electricity. People. will starve to death without it. So, people aren't blowing up power. plants because they're fundamentally. even the climate warriors among us are. pretty grateful for energy, for power, for electricity. So, you don't have to protect something. that people appreciate and think helps. them. There's no need.

But, Larry Fink knows, in fact, he's. admitting. that people know this is bad for them. So bad that they might be willing to. commit an act of terrorism, a felony for. which they could be imprisoned for a. long time. And trust me, if you attack a. data center, you're going to get a lot. longer sentence than you would if you. say raped someone or molested a child on. an island in the Caribbean, in which. case you're fine. You attack a data. center? Part of a BlackRock investment? Are you. joking? A Spencer Cox property? You're.

going away, buddy. For real. And not to. some club fed farm. Like super max in the hole. Do not mess. with a data center. But again, why would you want to? Why. are the kids at graduation at Central. Florida State University booing AI? The very name AI makes them boo. Because people can feel in their gut. it's not good for them. This is not a future they want. And they. moreover know, cuz it's couldn't be more. obvious, that nobody cares that they. don't want it at all.

It's being imposed on them as immigrant. populations are imposed on them all the. time. Hey, meet your new Somali. neighbors. Oh, you didn't ask for that? Who cares? Shut up, racist. People are used to living like this. They've been humiliated, their standard. of living has fallen, their life. expectancy has declined in the United. States over the past 20 years. And they've said almost nothing about. it. They've been sent to wars, committed to. wars as a nation, not just the men. fighting it, but all of us. And their.

consequences, again and again and again, against their will. No one's booing the Iran war. at a college graduation, but the mere. mention of AI sends the graduates into. booze. Because they feel in their guts it's. that bad and nobody cares that they feel. that way. In fact, they only don't only not care, they know. it and their only real concern is. protecting the investment from what they. consider inevitable drone attacks from a.

restive population. Man, the point is not that AI is terrible. Certainly there got to be upsides. Kind. of interesting. Probably can do a lot of repetitive. tasks that people don't want to do and. shouldn't be doing in the first place. Great. It's great. But the downsides also seem profound and. the refusal of the people developing. this and profiting from it. to even address those. is making this a still more volatile. place. For a lot of women, Mother's Day.

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250 and say the keyword baby. That's. pound 250baby or visit. preborn.com/tucker. preborn.com/tucker. We are proud to partner with Preborn. So, we thought now is exactly the time. to talk to I don't know the guy managing. it exactly, but there's certainly the. face of the world's largest data center. in Utah. And that'd be Kevin O'Leary, who is famous to people watch cable. television as one of the hosts for many. years of Shark Tank. Also, as you'll. find out in a minute, enormously nice. guy, genial guy.

Maybe that's why he's out explaining. what the data center is, cuz it's pretty. hard to dislike him personally. But as you watch this interview with the. guy who's in charge of the world's. largest data center, watch carefully and listen. Are any of the questions being answered? Does he know the answers? Does he care about the answers? Watch. Kevin O'Leary, thank you so much for. doing this. Um how did you I I read.

First I just want to check the facts. here, but I read that you are building. the world's largest data center in Utah, 40,000 acres. If that's How did you get into the data. center business? How did this start? >> You know, um I've always been in real. estate and. I kind of sort of came up in commercial. real estate with climate control storage. for pharmaceutical companies. Data center development is very complex, but very similar in some ways. It. requires permitting, it requires dark. fiber fiber. There's only five tenants.

in the world. You know, you you know them all, Amazon, Google, etc., Microsoft. And so, the thing that got me motivated though. was watching in the last 2 years. this narrative in North America about. how negative data centers are. Started. in Virginia, actually. The idea that. they consume a lot of water, that they. are very noisy, and all that's true from. stuff that was built 15 years ago, but. today that's not the case. And yet the.

narrative kept going. And I thought, who's doing this? Who. would Who would not want us to have. compute power? Who would not want us to. build our power grid out? Because when. you build a data center today, you have. to develop your own power and you can. sell it back to the grid. That's what. we're doing in Utah. I'm thinking to. myself, the Chinese. They don't want us. to do that. And I went through that whole thing with. TikTok, as you may recall, and I. actually saw the evidence of how the. Chinese were manipulating the algorithm. Now they're doing it a different way.

And that just kind of pisses me off. So. I'm happy to to add compute. I'm like I. I. I don't want my kids in 20 years to live. in New York being told what to eat for. breakfast by the Chinese. So, you know, I'm I'm kind of on a mission. here to compete. >> Okay, so the point you So you're doing. this because well, because it's a. business opportunity, but also because. China doesn't want you to do it. Why. would China. not want data centers built in the. United States? >> Cuz we're in a competition uh for AI.

compute. The nation that has the best AI. models will be the winner of future. wars. It'll have the most productive. economy. We already know now, just. looking at earnings that are coming out. as we speak, you know, talk about the. earnings this quarter are unprecedented. in terms of how good they are because. somehow, very quickly, and this is. probably just serendipitous luck for. this administration, AI compute is now being implemented in. all 11 sectors of our economy and it's. enhancing both productivity and margin.

So these companies are making a lot more. money than they were anticipated to. because AI is very productive. And. people debate about the job shift and. everything else, but the fact is the. economy is on fire, even at a time when. we have conflict. So, if I were the. Chinese, the last thing I want in. America. is the five or six tech companies that. are competing with me on deep seek. having more compute capacity. I want to. shut down every single proposal for. every single data center in every single.

state and I want agitators, I want paid. pro- protesters, I want. environmentalists, I want to shut it all. down so that they can't train their. models as fast as I can. Meanwhile, the. Chinese just built, in terms of new. power in the last 18 months, 400. gigawatts of new power, all with. coal-burning. turbines, coal. You know, they're not. worried about the environment. The big. guy over there says, "Build one here and. then stick a data center beside it so I.

can train my deep seek model faster.". And you've heard it from the Anthropic. CEO this week. He came out with the. stereo guy and said, "Hey, they're going. to catch up in 6 months." So, everybody. wake up and smell what's going on here. and just I started to dig in the last. week looking at all of these strings. that are attacking the Utah proposal and. the one I got up in Alberta. I'm going. to where I can find power and developing. these things and I want the Chinese to. see what we're doing. We're coming at.

you, buddy. >> Can I ask um um I I've got a million. questions, but let's just start with the. competition between the US and China on. AI. If data centers are the key to AI, why. has China built so few of them? >> Oh, no, they're. >> there are about 365 data centers in. China, almost 4,000 in the United. States. So, clearly they haven't. prevented us from building data centers. What do you think that is? >> Okay, let me walk you through the the. math of the last, you know, this is. moving very, very quickly, but. the data centers of.

even 24 months ago were 100 megawatt. facilities and um. they were useful for cloud storage, like. your Excel files and all the rest of. that. They were useful for just basic. compute and storage of data, but then. when these models started emerging, um. such as we have going with Anthropic or. Gemini um. and any of them, you know, Grok, all of. it. And all of the tools built on top of. them, the amount of compute power.

geometrically required geometrically. grew. And it was no longer 100 MW, the. minimum was minimum was 250 MW. Then 4. months later, the minimum was 500 MW. Wait. Here it comes. And then 2 months after that, it was 1. GW. Now, try and plug get a GW out of. the American grid or the Canadian grid. or the Mexican grid, not a chance in. hell. We're tapped out.

So, the Chinese were building these 1 GW. facilities. So, it doesn't matter about. the number of facilities. It matters how many are GW plus for. training AI models. Because you need a. lot of compute for the modern-day chip, and this technology's advancing very, very quickly. So, it's the size of the. the large ones are the ones that they're. beating us on, not the small 100 MW. Nobody cares about those anymore. You. can't train anything on that. So, we're.

we're competing now for campuses, 10,000. acres and more at a time. And that's. where the Chinese are kicking our asses. >> So, you said you would go wherever the. energy is, but I thought you were suppo-. you're bringing your own energy to the. project. Can you explain how you're. going to power this? >> Sure, that's a good question. Um. You need you can't tap in and you can't. you know, you tap into somebody's uh. grid. Let's take a place like Texas or.

in Mississippi or Utah for that matter. where I am. The electrical bills in that county are. going to go up 30%. And that's what pissed off so many. people in Virginia. They went out of. their minds as the electrical bills kept. going up. So, you can't do that. You. have to bring your own power. So, the. way you do that is you find low-cost. stranded natural gas. You acquire the new technology turbines. that burn very, very clean, require a. lot less water, cuz that's a big debate, too. And in some cases, no water. They're.

air-cooled. And you build those turbines. first. So, basically, the data center. game is about power. Now, here's another reason the Chinese. would not want Forget about data. centers. Let's just say we're building. new gas turbines that make electricity. The Chinese don't want you to do that, either, because they know that that's. how you're going to solve the grid. problem. You know, the people in Utah. are telling me, "Look, is there any way. when you build these power facilities.

for the data centers, you could sell. back some of that power to our local. grid?" And the answer is yes. So, now, instead of being the evil data center. guys, we can be the guys that are. actually powering the Utah grid, which, by the way, taps into the national grid. So, we want to build as many of these. power generators before we build any. data centers. But, I. >> So, where does the gas come from in in. this the world's largest data center, the one you're planning in Utah? >> Well, mine won't be the largest for. years. That's another uh.

piece of misinformation being spewed. everywhere. And I'm going to tell you. who's doing it soon. Uh we're going to build 1.5 gigawatts. first. So, a fraction of the nine gig. proposed. And make sure everything. works, and the people there in Box Elder. County can come and inspect it and see. the air quality EPA standards we're. going to hold up to, the water um rights. permits that we're going to maintain and. be compliant with, the noise EPA. requirements that we have to be. compliant with, the air quality we have.

to be compliant with. Get the first one. up, a small fraction of it, and show. everybody how it works. That's the plan. And then, I didn't I. didn't need 40,000 acres, but that was. the parcel available. That's twice the. size of Manhattan. It's called the. Maytag designation. Right beside the Hill Air Force Base. >> It's yeah, at least three times bigger. than Manhattan. Yeah, it's huge. >> I don't need I don't need all that, but. that was what was available. I'm going. to lease it back to grazers, do some. manufacturing, maybe. There's plenty of. land. We don't need it all.

>> But the power for it, where does that. come from? >> So, what we do is there's the Ruby. pipeline there. It's only 17% utilized. It's one of the. most underutilized pipelines in America. So, it's not like we are. So, we we we buy gas from the Ruby. pipeline. and we put it into a clean generator and. it generates electricity. And we tie. that back to the grid if they want it or. we power a data center. That's the idea. So, we have to build the power first and.

the power itself, um, I think we have a. big challenge in every state. Everybody's got to build more power in. the American grid right now and the. North American grid for that matter, Mexico too and Canada. >> So, the older you get, you realize how. fast everything can change. One day. everything is fine, it's great and the. next day things are not great at all. That's just the nature of it. But if you're realistic about that, you. have to think about your family. If. something happened to you, what would. happen to them? The problem is getting. life insurance is not only kind of.

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Life insurance through Ethos, you'll be. glad you did. Get a free quote at. ethos.com/tucker. That's ethos, e t h o. s.com/tucker. Obviously, application times may vary as. may rates. But, it's pretty darn easy. I I mean, I think that's absolutely. right. But, so just to be clear, this. project is totally energy independent. It It takes electricity from nobody. else. It creates 100% of its own power. >> Yes, that's 100% correct. And that was. always the proposal, and that is in the.

contract that we actually developed and. got unanimously passed by the three. commissioners in Box Elder where this is. the benefit It's the benefit of the Box. Elder's 66,000 people there. They're. going to get a lot of tax revenue, a lot. of jobs, 10,000 construction jobs, 2,000. maintenance jobs just for the first 1. and 1/2 gigawatts. So, there's a lot of. economic upside. But, I must tell you, and this is the. first time this has happened to me, I have a pretty big team as I'm sure you. do on social media. I'm managing a.

network of 12 million plus followers on. a different platforms. All the All of. them. And so, about 4 hours after. um. the vote was unanimously unanimously. passed on uh. It was a Monday night at around 6:05. um. Utah time. I got a phone call from. um. one of the people that. watches our network, looks for abnormalities.

And he said, "There's something going on. here. Um. something very unusual on Instagram and. on Twitter, which is now X.". And I said, "What do you mean?" He said, "The spiking. of a bunch of IP addresses that we don't. know.". And it's. put spewing out a tremendous amount of. information. I said, "Okay, guys. Let's get our team. on." Cuz I'm very fortunate. I have a.

bunch of. very good data scientists investigative. data scientists, if you want to call. them that. Um probably one of the best. teams. privately. uh outside of the government in the. Department of Defense. My team's pretty. good. You can make the assumption they once. worked in these agencies. All right, let me give you some names. here, Tucker. Party for Socialism and Liberation.

Um. apparently shares offices with the CPP. All over my social media. >> Okay, wait. Let me just stop you. Let me. just stop you there. So, if you're. saying that you're being criticized by. agents of a foreign government, let me. just. add my sympathy, empathy in fact, having. been the subject of that, you know, quite a bit over many months. >> aware. >> Right. Well, but the so okay. But that. doesn't Yeah, you make the case the. Chinese don't like it.

If you're that concerned about the. Chinese, what percentage of the. materials in the data center come from. China? >> Less and less all the time. That's one. of the things the administration is. trying to do. The turbines. are European-made or American-made. Um the pipelines are obviously. American-made. The chips are certainly. American-made. The the actual build out of the. facilities mostly American-made. I don't think there's a whole lot of um. we're not mining Bitcoin here. So.

>> Right. No, I I mean I think I I read. it's about 40 40 or 41%. So, it just I. mean China is benefiting from, you know, most purchases that most of us make. because it's the world's largest. manufacturer and that would also include. the construction of data centers. But my. point is I'm sure there are lots of. people trying to influence this outcome. to their own benefit and that would. include foreign countries, maybe even. China. But it doesn't change the facts about. the project. So, I just want to make. sure I have these clear. Are you paying. Would you be paying market rate for the.

gas? >> Yes, I don't have a choice on that. >> Right. >> to negotiate a gas deal. They're pretty. well paying market rate for everything. There's a There's a competition between. states for these jobs. I know there's a. lot of bad press. I wanted to just. finish with the list cuz I. I don't think, Tucker, you get the. enormity of what's going on here. >> Oh, I Oh, I do. I do get the enormity. And No, no, I have no doubt that. >> I mean. >> I mean. >> I want to mention I want to mention two. that are are cells inside of Utah, which.

really stunned me. This I'd never seen. before. Alliance for a better Utah, Elevate Strategies, taking the content. from the CPP, repurposing it, and. jamming it down the throats of people in. Utah on my social media feed, and lots. of other feeds. >> I'm I'm I've no doubt that's true, but I. I'm asking questions that I think are. relevant to the country. I'm not an. agent of the Chinese. I'm not a. socialist. So, I just want to know like.

where's the water coming from? Because water, as you know, is one of. the most contested resources in the. West. >> Oh, no, that's right. That's right. When. you buy land. in Utah, there are water rights that were granted. that land sometimes over 100 years ago. You have to apply for a permit, a usage. permit for that water. So, if it was If it was once used for. one purpose, and you want to change the. purpose to industrial, let's say, in the. case of a data center or power.

generation, you have to apply for the. permit. Usually, what happens, if it was grazing. and it was 100%, you could use They may change that and. knock it down by 40% to 60%. But, there's water already on that. property, already being used right now. We're just repurposing that water for a. different purpose. It's not like we're. going to draw water from somewhere else. We couldn't use the land if it had no. water. We couldn't even have a toilet in.

the men's room if we didn't have any. water. So, >> using more water than say a sugar beet. farmer would? >> No, actually, probably not. Um it. depends Here's Tucker, the way it works. is let's say your prime tenant is. Google. They come along and they say, "Okay, we want to We We want to be the. tenant for the uh Utah site. But we have a whole bunch of. requirements.". Because they're under pressure, too, to. be a lot more efficient, productive, and.

and more sustainable. They may say, "Well, let's not use water. to cool our turbines. Our spec is going. to be air-cooled turbines. So, you're. going to build out You're You're the. You're the owner. You're the master. developer. Here's our spec." And so, I. expect whether it ends up being uh. Amazon or Microsoft or Tesla or Google, they're going to build in a whole bunch. of things. And we can't deliver the. water we don't have. So, my guess is.

it's going to be contained cooling for. the chips, which is like a radiator in. your car. So, you're not using a ton of. water there. And then for the turbines. themselves, it may be air-cooled. We don't know yet. It depends what the tenant wants to. decide. >> your what's your. as you game this out, expected water use. over the first 10 years? >> Well, not knowing what my tenant wants. yet, probably less than we had.

originally anticipated in terms of what. is given us on the water rights. We've. applied for that. I mean, we're. anticipating we'll get, you know, whatever we're going to get. I don't. think we're going to use it all at all. because. what people. >> water rates in the the of Utah will go. up? >> Yeah, not because of us. I just think. they go up anyways over time. >> But if they go up if they go up at a at. a quicker rate than they have been going. up, if there's a spike in water price, would you compensate the state for the.

difference? In other words, if your business causes. water prices to rise, are you on the. hook for any of that? >> Yeah, I think we would be. I mean, we're. we're negotiating that. But that I I don't think water is the. constraint. because most of the technology, which. advances every 24 months, is reducing. the requirement for water. So, then I I. mentioned the air-cooled turbines. Those. just came on the scene 18 months ago. So, they're the first to actually. generate 5 MW at a time like LEGO.

blocks, put them together, and you just. >> Yeah. >> you're using air. But they're also you. have EPA regulation about air quality, so you've got to be very careful that. when you're using air cooling, you're. not breaching the air quality because. in Utah, and I studied this when I was. back in college, it's a unique. geography. They get inversions there. because of the mountains. So, you really. as an old environmental study guy, that's the one they'd always show us. would be Salt Lake City. So, I'm well. aware of the problem, and I know what.

the new turbines can do. The amount of. hype and hysteria and over all of this. stuff, um well, I've already pointed. out. I think it's being generated by our. our adversaries, but it's also. misinformation. Everything that's been. said about that site is false. >> Well, I'm grateful that you were able to. to present your side of this, and thank. you for doing it. >> Things around the world are moving so. fast right now, it's impossible to keep. up with all of the changes. [music] But.

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directly to your inbox when gold and. silver prices move, go to. battalionmetals.com/alerts. Markets move fast, stay ahead of them. So, it's battalionmetals.com/alerts. So, let me ask um cuz I I mean this is. just a huge new thing and I think it's. understandable that people would be. anxious about it. I don't think they. understand it. I don't fully understand. it. That's for sure.

Let me ask though about why taxpayers. should have to pay for this if it's a. private business and your tenants are. some of the richest companies in the. world. Why would taxpayers be required. as they now are to subsidize this? >> They don't. They don't necessarily have. to do that. They just won't win any. contracts. It's It's uh. It's a competition. Um. >> But why are you getting tax breaks is my. question? >> No, everybody what you go back and you. say what incentives can you give us to. invest $15 billion in the first 1.5.

gigs? That's what it takes. I have to go. raise $15 billion. That's just the first gig. But anyone. who starts a business, why should. taxpayers have to pony up for that? >> They don't. >> But of course they do. If you If you I. mean if you're getting a tax break and. they're not, they're making up the. difference. There's a state budget. >> no problem. I'll That's no problem. I. can build that in Texas. I can build it. in Jacksonville, Mississippi. They're. >> But but why if it's such a good business. would you be asking taxpayers to help. pay for it without giving them equity in. the company? Are you giving taxpayers.

shares? >> No, the the investors get the shares. But here's why they would do it. >> would the taxpayers have to I mean no, if you want to start a business, but why. why am I as a taxpayer forced to pay for. your business? I don't I don't get it. >> Well, let's forget about data centers. Let's go any manufacturing. Let's say. you're going to build. um. an aluminum sheet manufacturing. facility. You go to the government there. and say, "Look, this is going to huge. capex expect you know. a huge capex expenditure. I'm going to.

hire 2,000 people. I'm going to build a. community center. I'm going to pay a lot. of tax on the profits in your state when. I sell the aluminum, and I'm going to. hire all these people and they will also. pay tax, and we will build a school. because our workers need a need a. school, and and and and and." What can. you give me to incentivize me versus the. the state right beside you, which is. willing to give me an incentive package? >> No, no, I understand I understand that. you're you're gaming a system in place. You didn't come up with this, but I'm.

just trying to understand. So, the trade typically is jobs, okay? But these projects don't actually. >> Well, no, no, it's also jobs and taxes. cuz you're going to be in taxes. >> Yeah. >> But. But then you're getting a tax break, so. that doesn't really make any sense. >> Only up front you're. Tucker, welcome to America, buddy. This. is how it's gone on for 200 years. >> Okay, well, I don't know. Lots of bad. things go on for a while. I'm just But I. think at some point it's worth assessing. like why are we doing this? So, on the. job front.

>> You're doing it because there's a. competition. >> Well, I've run a couple businesses and. we're not getting any tax breaks. I. think they're every bit as virtuous as. data centers, but I'm not availing myself of that and. no one's offered and I wouldn't take it. anyway because it's not the job of. taxpayers to subsidize a private. business. >> That's a fair That's a fair It's a fair. comment, but my job is to create a data. center, create 2,000 jobs for long-term. 10,000 manufacturing at the beginning or. construction, and.

I'm obviously looking at at multiple. sites and this won't be the last one I. build. >> May I May I ask 2,000 jobs? Okay, so. relative to the size, the physical size. of the project, which as you noted is. multiple times the size of Manhattan, and the power draw at peak, this data center, your projections, will. consume about as much energy as New York. City does, but New York City provides. almost 5 million jobs, and this project, by your own.

description, would provide about 2,000. jobs. I I I don't see the trade-off. >> that you definitely got that calculation. wrong. By building a data center that. trains AI, that provides productivity to. the entire nation, we create millions of. jobs, high-paying jobs. >> So, AI is going to create jobs? >> Yes. >> I thought it was going to eliminate. jobs, net. >> You just think about the new. technologies we don't even know yet that. are going to be built off AI. Everybody.

thinks when television came, everybody. lose their job in radio. That was. complete BS. And the same thing is going. to happen here. Everybody's hysteria. about losing jobs making hamburgers or. flipping them, being replaced by a. robot, that's probably true, but all. kinds of new technology will become. available over time, including in. medical science and biology and all. kinds of things where the models can be. used. I'm extremely optimistic what I'm. doing is creating a whole new.

opportunity for my children. >> What What kinds of jobs? Well, I mean, again, I'm some of this, of course, is. unknowable and I want to be as fair as I. can be cuz I'm grateful that you're. willing to talk about it so openly. But you just said this will create AI. will create millions of new jobs. You're. >> Yes, but. >> the basis of AI, you can't have AI. without data centers, at least right. now. So, what are those millions of. jobs? Because we can go through the list. that the creators, the people who. actually are making AI right now,

developing it, we can go through the. list of jobs they say it's going to. eliminate, which would be like lawyers. and financial planners and like the. basis of upper middle class America. That's going away. They've said this. What will it be replaced by? >> It'll be replaced by new science. opportunities, new exploration in space, new manufacturing for robotics, for. defense as well. Wars in the future. probably aren't going to be fought with. people getting shot in the flesh. It'll. be one set of robots against another. I.

think the drone technology will advance. the manufacturing of surveillance, all. that stuff against our enemies, which. notably is basically China. So, if you. think about how you know, you debate the. data center. I think it's fair to do. that what you're doing, but I would be. very concerned if I were living in. Taiwan that one day my electricity just. goes out and I get invaded by basically. robotics and high precision ordinance. And that's what China wants and they. want to get there first. Now, if we. don't get there first, if we don't.

develop something better than their AI, their and our ability to be predictive. on where these conflicts are going to. happen, I think we'll be in a bad place in 20. years. And so. >> Okay, but it I think it's very revealing. that I asked you about jobs in the. United States and you went immediately. to defending Taiwan in the. >> Well, we we manufacture the equipment. here, Tucker. That's where it's made. >> Okay. Well, actually a lot of this has been in. China as as you already know. So, um we. don't need to be. >> I don't want to do that anymore. I want. to start making it here. I want to do.

advanced robotics. >> I totally agree, but the promise of AI. and robotics is that the robots will. make. the products of the future. So, how. exactly does that result in American. jobs? And more specifically, what are. those? What are you talking about when. you say. >> just don't agree. agree you because it's never happened. >> saying. >> don't want that to happen. Trust me. I'm. really worried about it. Almost. panicked. But I'm trying to feel better. Okay, then please make me feel better.

Where are these million of new jobs? What specifically are you talking about? >> Well, you know, every time technology. advances, it creates new opportunities. that were not foreseen prior because you. don't know the direction of new tech. You know, think about if you and I, cuz. we were actually around in the late '80s. contemplating what new jobs would be. created by the internet. And look at what's happened. It's. created millions of jobs and advanced.

all kinds of technologies and changed. the way we live to the better. And I. would say to you the same angst we had, the same narrative that was going on in. 1992. about how the internet is going to wipe. out the economy and it's a bad thing and. it's dangerous. Of course people loathe. change. That's the nature of how it is. >> that the United States is a happier. country than it was in 1992? >> What Define happy. What does that mean?

>> I don't know. We How about the suicide. rate or the addiction rate or the life. expectancy? Those are all upsetting trends. >> there's there's lots of social issues. and there always has been. I would. remind you though. >> But they've gotten worse at exact at. exactly the period in history that the. internet was formed and then seemed to. infuse every part of our lives. So, if. you were worried about the effect of the. internet in 1992 on America, looking. back from the vantage of 2026, you could.

say, "Yeah, I had good reason to be. worried." Couldn't you? Or am I. imagining that? >> You could say that it would have some. effect on society, but let me remind you. something um and I'm I'm probably the. right guy to make this comment cuz I. spent a lot of time all around the world. investing all around the world. Um. I don't care where you go and and I feel. this way and over the last and I've. really learned this over the last 20. years. Um. what is the number one export of. America? It's not energy and it's not.

technology. It's actually the American. dream. For all its faults that America. has, everybody I meet in every country, pretty well every single one, would like. to figure out how they can get to. America, start a business, and be part. of the American dream. And I go to some. pretty gnarly places where people are. willing to risk their lives to go under. a river with barbed wire to get in here. So, until that changes,

which I don't see ever happening, our only my only concern is China. >> They're the What's the. >> [clears throat]. >> What's the Ameri- What's the If you. could just be more precise? I mean, born. here, I love this country, I'm not. leaving, so I'm I'm invested in the idea. of the American dream, but I'd love to. just define it more precisely before we. discuss it. What is it? >> Okay. Um let's make it really basic. Let's go to Shark Tank. Those people. that trot out in front of me and have. done for almost 20 years. uh with an idea to solve someone's.

problem that they'll get paid for. And. 80% fail, but 20% make it. And it creates personal. freedom for them because it was just an. idea. I mean, I think of some of these. things wicked good cupcakes set two. women free for the rest of their lives. Basepaws, cat DNA testing. Anavaskaia, a. researcher that came up with this idea, walked away with 105 million cash 36. months later. That's the American dream,

and I'm an ambassador for it. I've been. doing this. >> freedom and opportunity, I think you. just said. Is it fair to summarize it. >> It's. It's not about the greed of money. What. I've learned is the freedom of. opportunity. It's opportunity. And I And I I see it. over and over again, and I'm an. ambassador for it all around the world. because. of the fact that somehow magically this. show, and you understand television. better than anybody, this thing is on in. 54 countries around the world. I can go. anywhere and call up the leadership of. any place and have a meeting with them. because I'm just an ambassador of the.

American dream. That's pretty. interesting. >> Well, it's it's a great thing, the. American dream. If freedom and. opportunity is what the American dream. is, then, you know, those are things. worth dying for, um, I think. >> people are doing. >> So, the question is, is AI going to. bring us freedom and opportunity? Because AI is the big bet that the. entire American economy is making right. now. And I want it to be a good bet more than. anything, but I wonder if it's going to.

bring us freedom and opportunity. So, let's just start with opportunity. The. concern that people have is that their. jobs, and not just their jobs, but their. purpose for being alive, will be. replaced by machines. To which you say that's not true, great. things will happen. To which I said, okay, what are those great things? To. which you talked about Shark Tank. So, I. just want to be a little more specific. about what the upside of AI is, because. then everyone will calm down and feel. happy about your data center. What is the upside?

>> Well, let's start in medicine. Um, let's use specific cases everybody can. understand. I was in Miami two weeks ago, um, and went for a full body scan, the price. of which has dropped 80% in the last 3. years. So, in an hour and a half, this machine went right through my body. Two years ago, it would have taken 3 weeks to get the. results, looking for cysts on your liver.

or whatever it is. With AI, with the agent they had there right at. the scan facility. Um. 18 minutes later, it delivered me a. report. Told me I had an infection in my sinus, that I had a cyst on my kidney that. hasn't grown since the last body scan 4. years ago. That was stunning and remarkable. >> Yeah, it's great. >> It is great. So, that's one use case of. something very, very important. And.

that's just medicine. And so, if you. think about. all the things that this can do. including the arts and in music and and. film and everything, I think the use. cases are going to be created by humans. who find ways to use the tool. I view it. and maybe you don't agree as simply a. tool. Another example cuz it's great to. tell people just examples. I've been a. photographer my whole life including a. period when I was professional. commercial photographer and a.

cinematographer for the networks. I've amassed. 590,000. images during my career, half of which are on film, not shot with. a phone where you get all the data on it. and it knows where it was shot, when it. was shot and everything else, which is. easy to index and look for. So, call it. quarter of a million negatives. How could I possibly catalog that as a. human?

I couldn't. I don't have enough time. left before I'm dead. So, I used AI last week with a tool to. actually, after scanning all the images, to go look at them. for 2 weeks. And now, I'm able to just go to this computer and. say, "Find a picture of my wife the day. I met her. uh in the gym.". Boom. There it is. >> It's amazing. Now, you're kind of making. my point though cuz the two examples you. gave are examples of a machine replacing.

human labor and doing a better job than. any person could do. >> Oh, Tucker, that's horrible. >> Well, but hold on. That's my point. >> Well, I know it's your point. I know. it's your point and I can see the marvel. of it. But it raises the question which won't. go away, which is okay, now that. machines do what people do better than. people did, what do people do? >> Okay. >> is the answer to that? >> Let me ask you Let me Let me pose a. question against that. Would you prefer. I'm giving you one of two options with.

the uncertainty of both, okay? But I. want you to pick one. This will tell me a lot about how you. think. Would you prefer. in the next 5 years. that China have more compute power than. we do. even though the the use and the outcome. and jobs and everything else we're. talking about is unknown or would you. prefer the United States of America and. and their allies in North America had. more compute power to develop AI. Which. one? >> Which.

>> Whatever makes the United States. happier, freer, and more prosperous, I. guess, is the answer to that. >> what the answer to that is? What do you. think it is? >> I'm not sure that we know. I know that. reducing this question to a competition. between the United States and China is a. very quick way to derail people from the. core questions, which revolve around. whether or not it's a good idea. So, that's always kind of a red flag for me. China has more economic power now than. the United States, probably has more. military power. I didn't want either of. those things to happen. I'm a little. bitter at the American business.

community which allowed them to happen, but they happened, so here we are. There's not much I can do about it. My. focus remains. however, on is it good for the United. States? Is it good for us? Does it make. people happy? And I don't understand what people are. going to do for a living if machines are. going to be able to do most things that. people currently do better than people. do them. Like, what is the answer? What. are what And a lot of people are honest. enough to say, "Nothing. We're just. going to the oligarchs are going to send.

out checks to everybody, the bread and. the bread and circuses. And everyone's just going to kind of. stay home and be obedient. But I don't know that that. is a good idea and I don't know that. that's going to. >> I think you're raising a great point and. it's a wonderful debate and it's. certainly going on, but it's analogous. to the narrative that must have been. happening back when the Model T Ford. rolled off the assembly line and. everybody that had a buggy looked at it. and said, "Oh, no. This is going to wipe. me out and there'll be no work for me.". That the American economy is very. resilient as it develops new sectors.

>> What happened after the Model T was. rolled out? We had two big events in the. say 40 years after that. >> had. >> One was the First World War and one was. the Second World War. The Industrial. Revolution, like all technological. change, caused dramatic political and. social change, which resulted in the. biggest bloodletting in human history. So, I'm like it's worth the thinking. this stuff through. Like technological. change. forces social and political change. >> Unfortunately, capitalism and the.

freedom it provides. uh is volatile. And it has lots of. periods, including the Great Depression, where it taxes the people that support. it. But it's still better than the. alternative anywhere on Earth, it seems, 200 years later. And so, you know, when. you start looking at the American. economy and the vol it's had, it's been. unbelievable. But the system uh with all. its faults, and you're raising some good. points. I I agree with you. I'm just. trying to think what's the alternative. And regarding AI and the and the.

ultimate uh issue around your job issue, and I I think it it's it's fair. I'm looking at it differently. I'm. looking at it. as insurance. I would prefer, even though the future. is uncertain and the outcome, you know, and the and the end is always near, to. quote Jim Morrison, and I love that line. in his song. >> Roadhouse Blues? >> Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, the future's. uncertain and the end is always near. Um. live, you know, words I live by. But,

it's sort of. if you had to give me the two. alternatives, let China do this first or. us, I'll take us. And and I and I'm part. of that now and I in the controversy of. it, we started our conversation. I've. never seen a controversy like this. I've. never seen attacks like this. I know you. have, but I haven't experienced it and. I'm I'm hiring. >> Well, I mean, if you take money from. taxpayers, you should expect them to. weigh in two and take their complaints. seriously and not just dismiss them as.

agents of China. >> you and you're right, but but this has. been going on incentives state by state. in every sector happen even in real. estate. >> they're they're it's a forced transfer. of wealth from taxpayers to people who. are richer than taxpayers. So, like. >> No, they're not. They Of course they. have a You get a tax break to create. 2,000 jobs and then. the taxpayer wouldn't do it if if it. wasn't the long-term outcome. >> has no choice. The taxpayer has no. choice. >> a choice. They can say no. That's not. what happened. >> Well, they tried to say no to this data. center and they got laughed at and then.

the governor, Spencer Cox of Utah, who really is a kind of living symbol of. of our ruling class, um. said that the state has an obligation to. do this and basically, as you were. doing, waved away concerns as. like foreign propaganda when I think. they're probably non-crazy people living. in Utah are like, "Why is this good for. me? Why should I pay for this?". >> It's fair, it's fair. All this is fair. How about we forget the data center and. just talk about the power for a second. because there aren't going to be any.

data centers in America unless we build. power generation. Do you have the same. visceral reaction to power generation as. you do to data centers? >> Uh inversely. I think we need more. electricity in the United States and I. think the people who are. Speaking of agents of China, in fact, if. you're looking for agents of China, it's. the people who told you that you could. live without fossil fuels, that babies. wouldn't die without fossil fuels. Babies will die without fossil fuels. Civilization will collapse without. fossil fuel. And that right there is the.

foreign op telling us that, you know, people are causing global climate. change. People are not causing global. climate change substantially. We are. having global climate change as we. always have. But to blame it on natural. gas is just a flat-out lie, and a lot of. rich Americans fell for that. So, no, I'm I'm strongly for energy. I'm just very concerned about replacing. people, their purpose for living, which. is to create, with machines. That seems like hell to.

me, literally hell. So, I'm I think it's. fair to ask like, how is this not hell? And no one has been able to answer it. >> Yeah, um I I I think trying to stop. advancement of technology with the. uncertainty it brings has always been a. dilemma. in capitalism and in America. And I And. it's a fair comment. >> But how is this capitalism if taxpayers. are paying for some of it? How is that. capitalism? That seems. >> that's no different than building a an. apartment building downtown in Austin.

You can get incentives for that, too. And that's just part of how it works. You can debate that. >> that How is that capitalism? How is that. free market if politicians are handing. you other people's money to do it? How. is that capitalism? Well, capitalism. >> built into the Constitution, which I. think was genius, cuz it couldn't even. thought that far ahead, was the idea of. competition between states. Why is there. an exodus out of New York City to Miami, where I live? Why are people leaving New. Jersey and Massachusetts and moving into.

my building? Nobody in my building is. from Florida. They're all from other. states. And all of these people moving, why? Because they're. reaching retirement age, and the the. environment in these other states is not. conducive to their lifestyle when they. retire. >> think you're making my point for me. You. just listed states that use a higher. percentage of taxpayer dollars for. private industry and people are leaving. those states, Illinois, >> Wait a second. New York is not New York.

is an inefficiently run. >> It may be inefficient, but the principle. that you can. politicians can take the public's money. and hand it to their friends in. business. That's a long-standing. practice in New York, California, and. Illinois and relatively uncommon in. Florida. So, people are moving to the. free market state, but you're now saying. that actually the beauty of capitalism. is that politicians hand other people's. money to their friends. That doesn't. >> No, that's the opposite of capitalism.

I'm saying that No, you're. That is incorrect. I didn't say that. I. said what makes capitalism work is. competition and it does work and it has. worked for hundreds of years. And so, the concept you may not like the policy. of giving incentives for manufacturers. and real estate. You may not like it and. I understand you don't, but you don't. have to do it. A state can stop doing it. and then for a while maybe they'll be. less competitive in terms of getting new. projects. I didn't make those rules up. I'm I'm a football player on the field.

of capitalism. >> I get it. Get it. I get it. No, I get. it. And I'm not attacking you for it. I'm. just wondering again, occasionally it's. worth pausing and asking are we doing. the right thing even if we've been doing. it the same way for a long time. Do you. I'll ask just one final question. I'll. stop torturing you, but do you see how. other people find it unfair. that one of the richest people in. America, you, in league with the biggest companies in. America, Amazon, Microsoft,

etc., the ones you listed, that the. richest people in our society would be. taking money. from people much poorer than them. That seems very unfair. >> You know, Tucker, um. let I'll speak for myself on this. I'm not motivated by money anymore. It. That That is not why I get up and work. 18 hours a day. Um. I want to build something incredible. I. want my legacy legacy for my children to.

be something that they're honored by. I. want to compete against the Chinese. I don't like the Chinese government in. case anybody has noticed that over the. last 5 years. I don't like how they. treat their people. I don't like how. they treat me in business. I simply. don't like them. What's motivating me. now with all of this. barrage, this firestorm, which I. understand you've experienced in the. past, is I want to beat them in AI. I.

don't want them controlling the most. advanced models wherever that's taking. us cuz you bring up great points about. the unknown in jobs and everything else. But I want to be part of the team. that makes sure our way of life in North. America. remains the same for my children. I don't give a about money anymore. I don't need any more money. I've. already been very successful. I'm very. lucky, but I'm not finished. I'm very. motivated to win. And if you if people.

want to compete with me, I want that. If. they don't think my motivation is to. beat the Chinese, they're wrong. I am. going to beat them. I am going to show. them these data centers. They're going. to be the shining example how you do. this sustainably cuz I'm the only guy. that has graduated out of environmental. studies and builds data centers. No one. else on Earth has done that. >> Do you think Well, I I love the idea. I'm for America above all. Do you think. that Microsoft and Amazon and Google.

will do a good job preserving the. American way of life. Are they. substantially. superior morally to the Chinese. government? Do you think that? Those are. your tenants. >> Yes, I do. And in fact, I deal with that. every. >> Tell me how is How is Google. >> I I I was talking with the guy yesterday. that does. um. is do it is doing the build-outs all. around the world for Google's data. centers. They are on incredible sustainable. mission. They are looking at every.

technology to reduce their. um. need for traditional power sources. And. you know, we were talking about. the the campus in uh Utah. They have some very advanced thinking on. the use of battery, wind, and solar. And so, they want to do that. Why? Because their customers want that. >> a second. China leads the United States. in battery, wind, and solar in. development of those technologies.

>> Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a great. story. That's great. That's It's a great. story, but not in data centers they. don't. They're powering. >> No, but hold on. >> [laughter]. >> Jumping around a little bit. I'm just. trying to ask Okay, so you say you want. to preserve the American way of life. That's why you're building this. My. question was Okay, well, your tenants. are these big companies that are not. really American companies. They're. publicly traded companies that are owned. by the sovereign wealth funds of mill-. tons of countries around the world. In what sense are they American. companies? In what sense do they have. American values?

>> Because they're they they operate under. the laws and are headquartered in the. United States of America under the. regulations. The only reason that Google. can raise as much capital as it does. from the sovereign wealth Now, you're. coming into my space. I'm an indexer for. sovereign wealth. The only reason 52. cents of every dollar comes to America. is the transparency. of our laws and the appellate system and. our banking system and the regulate, and. and so that's why you find the largest.

tech companies on Earth housed in. America because the regulatory. environment and the actual regulatory. environment in the context of the globe. is the most advanced on Earth. So, you. may hate the SEC, you may not like, you. know, regulations, but in fact it gives. an infrastructure where most capital. comes here. That's what happens cuz the. outcomes. Why does France have no Microsoft? Why. does Germany not have one? What what. happened to, you know, the European.

countries? They they and Britain. you know, they don't have any of this. tech because they regulated it out of. their society. We don't want to change. that. We want the innovation here, not the regulation necessarily, but we. also. >> I strongly agree except to the extent. the regulation protects the public. >> It's a balance. That's why we trust the. government and a lot of people don't. like them. We say, "Look, at the end of. the day, you know, the great example. that we could use that you both know, I. don't think crypto's going to work until. they pass the bill of that crypto. They.

got to finish this infrastructure act so. that finally crypto can find its place. inside of the 11 sectors of our economy. No one's going to I'm not investing in. crypto until they get that freaking. thing through the house.". >> May I ask Okay, so just to your second. point about the American dream, there. was opportunity, I think, you know, the. ability to be judged on. on your actions, on your behavior, on. your character, to be treated equally, and there was also freedom.

Um and so I think many people have deep. concerns about AI's effect on freedom. You said yourself, "The purpose of AI is. in part surveillance.". Yep. What is the point? Right. So, what is. that? What does that look like? I asked, "What jobs does it create?" Couldn't get. an answer. Now, I'm going to ask you. more specific question. What. surveillance Can't get an. >> from me cuz nobody knows what jobs it's. going to create yet. But I would say. >> Well, of course, but I've I've always. seen every technology that has been.

lauded as it's come in. always creates new jobs. I assume the. same for this tool. It's just a tool. So, you you know, the surveillance is a. great point. We have laws regarding. surveillance, and we have laws that. restrict the government and they're. built into the Constitution. We have. free. We have free speech. All of these things. remain the same. They don't change with. AI. >> Well, they didn't until last week when. the president led the charge to change. the law. and allow warrantless spying on.

Americans. >> Yeah. >> in. >> Okay, well, wait a second. >> in direct violation of the US. Constitution. So, obviously, the. Constitution doesn't matter to the. people in charge. >> does. Every administration is kept in check by. the Supreme Court, including this one. And so, that's why the Founding Fathers. created this structure, and I think it. works. And I trust it for one, and I'm. willing to you know, have my kids who. are Americans grow up here, and I want. to protect them. >> Okay, so what what kind of surveillance. I mean, it seems like AI will make it. possible to know what every American is.

doing at all times. I Correct me if I'm. wrong. >> Um I would say that's not AI that's. going to do that. I would say now with. the amount of high-resolution video. and surveillance that is built into. every street corner. That's how they solve a lot of crimes. Now, if you don't like that. >> solve a lot of crimes? Has the. >> do. They do. >> Has the closure rate for murders in our. big cities like what percentage of. murders are in New York City or Chicago. or Detroit are solved?

>> I don't I don't track the murder. >> actually. It's lower in this country. than it was 10 years ago. >> is a great issue, but the enhancement of. surveillance with AI tools is how you. now walk through the Dubai airport. And. you also walk through some airports here. in the US. Facial recognition technology. has finally got to the resolution using. AI's tools. >> Why. it's going to run through your data. center? There'll be pictures of all of. us in your data center. >> Every every data center. >> about it. Right. So. >> You don't. >> So but how does that make it free or.

>> You don't have to opt into that program. by the way. I do it for convenience. I'm. not hiding anything. >> on street corners as you said. So it's. anytime you're in public, your face is. being surveilled by the US government. >> is, but I'm I'm not um doing nefarious. things. I'm not a criminal and I'm not. stealing any money from anybody. So. >> The definition of nefarious changes as. you know. I mean hundreds of thousands. of American citizens were sent to. concentration camps by Franklin. Roosevelt cuz they were Japanese. >> Correct. >> So in 1940 it was not a crime to be.

Japanese in 1941 it was. So it the. definition does change. as you know. >> It's it's true. So you you could have. those concerns, but I ask you again, Tucker. >> [laughter]. >> I do. >> No, I and I you I know you do, but I ask. you again and you haven't answered my. question. Do you want the insurance. policy or not? Would you Would you with. all of the nefarious concerns about AI, which outcome do you prefer as an. American for your family? Would you.

prefer. all of us that are developing these data. centers put down our shovels and stop. while the Chinese accelerate theirs? Would you like that? >> Well, I see it kind of a different. question. I see the question I want to. be Let me answer your question in the. following way. Do I want to become like China in order. that we can quote beat China? Not at. all. The problem with China from my. perspective is that it surveils its. citizens. and it limits their ability to say what.

they think and to oppose existing power. That's why China is bad, I thought. Cuz there are a lot of things about. China that are great, but what I don't. like about China is the totalitarian. approach it has towards its own. population. >> I agree with you. >> you're making it possible for our. government to have the same approach and. our government already does. They're. surveilling us at all times. Most. Americans don't even know they're being. watched. They're license plate readers, they're facial recognition cameras. everywhere. And the question is why? So the crime. rate can go down? It well hasn't gone. down. So of course the real reason is to.

make you obedient, obviously. >> No, I I have a different vision of the. future. >> Why do we still have crime? >> Well, but but now here now hear me out. Here's what Here's what I think's going. to happen cuz I'm enjoying this. conversation. Let me As well I know we. come to a close soon, but here's where I. think we're going to be in 20 years, okay? >> Yeah. >> I believe in 20 years, and this is my. vision of what's going to occur, and I. think I'm a great guy to actually do. this cuz I have a foot in both. economies. I think by the time the 20th year. I'm going to make it in 10 years.

It may not be with this administration. or the administration in Canada. The two. economies are going to emerge. for one reason. >> Which two economies? >> The two The two. Canada has all the raw resources, the. largest consumer. >> Oh, yeah. >> And and it's crazy that we're fighting. uh on these on this stuff. It's crazy. It makes no sense. >> agree. >> And so we should merge um. these economies. You don't have to merge. the countries. You merge the economies. so you get an EU type. situation where you allow freedom of.

movement across the border and you allow. no tariffs on all the. stuff we need, the rare earth Canada. has, the water, the paper, all that. stuff. And the only reason we're going to do. that is so we can take 5%. of our GDP, which will be the largest on. earth by around 25%. No one will be. close to us if we merge those two. together, and the benefits that accrue. for one reason. To tell the Chinese don't with us. That's basically what's going to happen.

because they want to with us big. time. And that's my belief, and I think. I'm right. I think that's what's going. to happen. And AI and and computer and. all this stuff, that's a side story. We. have to keep all of our tech ahead of. theirs, including data centers and. everything else. But ultimately, they. are our adversary on our way of life. >> Then can I ask? Our way of life, right? So you I would think since you disagree. with the Chinese way of life, which is.

pretty civilized in a lot of ways, but. the one way in which it's barbaric is. that it grants its citizens no real. rights. And so I would think that you would be. very worried about aping their system, which we are now doing. Like they have. total surveillance, it's panopticon in. China. We should create our own. Let's. take 40,000 acres in Utah and make it. possible for the government to know. where you are at all times and what. you're thinking, listening to you on. your phone. Like we have that. What do. you think you'd be upset about that? >> to you have to choose the the less of. two evils in your scenario. And I'm. telling you that what you should do is.

say, "I want Kevin O'Leary to succeed. I. want him to beat the Chinese in compute. power." And then then use the laws of. the United States to make sure that you. keep that compute power in check. whichever way you want. But to not have. it available, to put down my shovel, I. don't think people want me to do that. Even the people in Box Elder, the. majority of them want me to hold my. shovel and start digging. And that's. basically the debate we're having. >> How do you know How do you know that. that the majority of the. >> Cuz they voted for it unanimously before.

the Chinese guys. >> There was a referendum? >> Like all this crap that's being spewed. out by the Chinese government. >> I'm. Yeah, and I may have fallen for some of. it, so you correct me. There was a. referendum among citizens or did some. like county board vote? >> We we actually went through the whole. process that you have to do by their. laws and were granted. three to zero. The the the commissioners. of the county said, "We want to be. partners. >> voted. The people of the county.

>> Elected officials. That's. how hard is it for Kevin O'Leary and. Amazon and Microsoft and Google. to subvert three county commissioners in. rural Utah? >> They voted they wanted they asked us to. come they asked us to bring 15 billion. dollars. They asked and they voted and. they it was a three to zero vote. They. they That's how it. There's no other. >> Amazon, Google, and Kevin O'Leary got. three county commissioners in rural Utah.

on their side. Good work. But can I just. ask you really quick like why don't you. have a referendum? Why don't you let all. citizens all taxpayers the ones who are. paying for your project? Why don't they. get to Why don't they get to pay or. vote? >> Well, there listen the whole idea of of. expediting it was so the project didn't. go to Jacksonville, Mississippi. That's. the competition. And so the government. there said, "Okay, look. We've done. Because we haven't lost we haven't lost. our um we have to go through NEPA. We.

have to go through air quality. We have. to go through the water permitting. We. have to go through the land construction. permitting. Nothing's been lost. There. there's. there's no. there's no. circumventing the process. And that's what we're doing now. So if. if you want to block the water permit or. whatever, go ahead. I mean if you think. that's a good idea if there's a path to. do that, we're going to do it the way. we've been told by the law. By the way, I'm I got to go soon, but I would love. to keep going. I'm I'm. >> Kevin O'Leary.

>> I sure appreciate it and I hope that. when. my personal data comes through your data. center, you will. you will filter it. >> Tucker, I think I think I'm going to. tell when when people ask me what was it. like I'm going to say, "He told me to. get my shovel out and keep digging.". >> I did I I very much did not say that. Not digging for a data center. I don't. know build like an antibiotics factory. That would be I'd be for that. >> Thank [laughter] you very much. Take. care my friend. You know I'm a You know. I'm a huge fan I really am. I love I love the you take and the.

you give I really do all right. >> bother me at all. >> Thanks a million. >> Thank you take care chow bye-bye. >> [music].