Tucker and Chris Cuomo Debate JFK/Epstein Files, DOGE, Joe Rogan, NATO, Transgenderism, and DEI

So, last time we talked was. a year ago, and... You somehow look younger. Ah, I feel worn out. and fatter. I've been on the road. for too long. The first day of Lent, I'm getting. right now. But anyway, it's been a year since we. talked about this, and last time we. talked, I think you were still like, and I probably was too little off. balance from being vomited out. of television world into the. great beyond. But I was thinking about you this. morning, and I was thinking, Thanks for watching! I bet he's really grateful he's not.

at CNN now. It gives me no particular joy to. say this, but you were right. about it. Well, okay. Don't get used to it. It's the last time you'll hear it in. this conversation.

You said, give. it time, embrace doing what you're. doing, and don't look for the. acceptance of where you were. Yes. And that was really good advice. It's not easy to do, but News Nation. has been what. I would call a blessing in my life. I didn't know it at the time. And like, so my brother's. running for mayor.

my bosses, and of course they had. the benefit of going to school on. what happened with me at CNN. the embrace, the willingness. and acceptance of, wow, this is great for your family. This is great for your brother. We're excited for you guys. I thought it was like a test, that if I seemed okay. about that, they'd be like, aha, we. knew you. And the.

difference, the change of. one conversation. of them saying, well, we're with. you, We support you. And I said, well, I'm gonna just. tell the audience though, I'm not. gonna cover the race obviously. because I'd have a conflict. And they were like, yeah, duh. They know that. If you feel like you have to say it, say it. And I realized, wow, they really believe. in what I'm doing here and. supporting me. I love that. And so there's just a. really profound gratitude.

So there's not this weird hypocrisy. where they encourage you to have. your brother on because he's famous. in the news, is what CNN did to you, from my perspective, watching. They encourage you, hey, Chris, call. your brother, have him on. And then like a year later, like, oh, wait, you were talking to your. brother, you're fired. Yeah. It gets too f -. Look, as we both know, in every business, and especially. in ours, you do what you have to do to. protect yourself. And if it's. me or you, and I put myself.

in a position where I was. vulnerable, then. it's going to be me. And that's what happened. And I accepted. I don't blame CNN. This was really about two people. making decisions about my life, not the organization. I miss the people. I wish the place well. That is all true. But I have a connection with News. Nation and these guys, where I am. anxious to bleed for them. I am excited about. putting it all on the line every. day, anywhere in the world.

Because of my upbringing and my. disposition, when I know you're. there for me when you don't need to. be, it's not necessarily, you know, there are a lot of big. names that you could grab in the. media right now. For News Nation to give me the. chance and to let me do it and to. support me. And to support me when Andrew. decides that he's got to be in. public service, can't put a price on it, could. never be grateful enough. So from a year ago until today,

I now know that. And there is something comforting. about that. It's an ugly business, it's an ugly. time. The ugliest business. All the wrong things are being. rewarded, but I'm. in the right place for me. It's funny, I don't. want to spend two hours beating up. on the media because everyone hates. them already, but it's. been almost two years for me since I. haven't worked in the media. And it's weird when you do work. there for your whole life, you just.

accept that everyone lies all the. time and it's totally treacherous. and people who claim to be your. friends actually hate you and. every dispute is settled with a. lawyer. It's like, oh, it's so. disgusting, but you just accept. that's the way things work, But. that's not how things work outside. the media. Um, nowhere else in your life, you know, it's part of. politics and media, right? Uh, there's, there's certainly, uh, related, if not married. And I think that the biggest. frustration, the look that.

you and I both know, there are lots. of great men and women who do the. job for the right reasons. But as a culture, it's okay in the media for. me to destroy you. by a standard that I would never. want imposed on me. And there is something that. is really dangerous about. that. Well, I don't want you to know about. my life, but. you, we're going after. 100%. And that dichotomy, let's call it, that paradox is.

really... Well, it's hypocrisy. Yes, and it's really dangerous. And look, unfortunately, it works so well, you know? if I were. to cover you in any situation. and put a positive spin on it. That's a puff piece. It's weak. Cuomo's been red -pilled. He got bought up by that preppy, smiley chuckle head. And if I then say, well, I sat. with Tucker and as I knew it, devil's spawn. Ooh, that was a hard -hitting piece.

You know, he really came at him. They're such children. The commodity is negativity. If you want to be a hard journalist, you better say something negative. about somebody. It's a proxy for. insight. I just interviewed Sam Bankman, freed yesterday from jail. It hasn't aired yet, but. That's the world. I actually really enjoyed the. conversation. And about five minutes. in, I was like, oh shit, I haven't. asked him a single mean question. about his business. He's in jail for 25 years. So I thought, I don't really need to. make the case that he did something. wrong. A jury's already, you know,

already decided that. And I think it's okay to just like, have a conversation with the guy. I don't, and then I thought, well, I'll probably be criticized for. sucking up to Sam Bankman Fried. And I thought, I don't care, actually. Well, look, you're in a unique. position, right? Because one, you have no boss. Two, the media is. already not looking to be a friend. to you. You don't think so? So you don't have to you don't have. to impress anybody. I'm not going to win them over. Margaret Brennan's not going to text. me congratulations. You can do whatever you.

want to do and there's and there's a. lot of freedom in that and of course. there are challenges of you having. to support yourself and find. opportunities and build your own. infrastructure. You know, there's a. lot of entrepreneurial stuff that. you and I never had to deal with. before. So you can just have a conversation. with them because the. media doesn't know what to do with. digital and independent media. The instinct was to disrespect it. Oh, of course. Right? Marginalize it. And I think on a reporting level, that's still safe ground. I mean, what's popping on digital. media isn't investigative reporting.

per se. There are some Taibii, Schellenberger, stuff like that. But Barry Weiss at the Free Press. But it's mostly hot takes. But now that we're. realizing in our society, and I'm. very excited about it, power is. shifting back to people and from. institutions. And that's really. uncomfortable for some people. Yes. I think the Democrats. are in a weird place where they seem. like, which is such anathema as. Mario Cuomo's kid, he was so anti. -establishment, but they seem. pro -establishment defenders of. the status quo.

And I think that's a really. dangerous place to be right now. because I think power is shifting. towards being disruptive. of institutions. and of the elites in. a very real way. And digital media is much better. positioned. to be empowered by that than what. they're now calling legacy media. I don't buy into that as a. pejorative, but I see. it. And I see that people. are really open to getting. a dev - two things are. happening at the same time.

Siloed? Absolutely. But also, people are realizing. that they can reach out and get. different versions of events and. takes on things in a way that they. couldn't before. And I think that's really exciting. and the media doesn't know what to. do with it. SH -. It's amazing and I. think the most influential people in. media, I think you have to put Rogan. at the top of that, kind of don't work for anybody and. it's just so interesting. If you look at the ads on Margaret. Brennan's show, it's like Nissan and.

Joe Rogan, it's like prostate health. cures. It's like the. whole, guys like Rogan. have become rich, famous, influential, completely outside. the conventional structure. on the road. Certainly, Rogan. But all of them. I mean all of them. Megan Kelly is. enormously influential. I haven't seen her ads, but like. But she's still corporate backed, right? She's Sirius XM. She was Fox, as you well know, didn't work for her at NBC, which. really wasn't a surprise to anybody.

in there. It's being a network anchor, being a storyteller, being a. host that is accommodative of. broad audiences that are looking. to be inoffensive. That's a very different skill set. that she clearly was gonna struggle. with. So I wasn't surprised by that, but she's Sirius XM. Now, Rogan is Spotify, but he built that all himself. But you're wondering, though, but. still, I mean, Rogan is, you. know, in some sense, like, bigger. than Spotify. He could leave. Spotify. I think Megan could leave.

I was surprised he took the deal. I was surprised he took the deal. Well, it gives them a lot of. freedom. But here's my question. You see every kind of. mid -sized independent business in. America getting scooped up by. private equity. So every veterinary practice, every. dental office, every TAC places, cemetery associations, like there. is this inexorable trend. toward like conglomerates. Small independents getting scooped. up by some big umbrella group. That's gonna happen in.

media, I would think. We are presently. realizing, so there was that big. wave of deals that you and I missed. in the podcast space where people. were just throwing money to. have a footprint in it, Rogan. was the biggest of those deals, right? But, then it went away. And when I got into it, I'm all. self -financed because, well, I was. damaged goods, but people weren't. looking to just throw money at a. podcast because no one was making. money on those deals. It was like relearning the Howard.

Stern lesson that they paid them all. that money at Sirius XM. And it's like, you know, what was. the yield? Now different people are starting. to buy a podcast that are. traditional media companies. and they are the seed capital. behind the private equity behind. those organizations are starting. to buy up these properties. It freaks me out because the. reason independent media are. credible is because they're. independent. Yes. They're not controlled.

Yes. Now, I struggle with that a. little bit. That absolutely can be. true. And again, Taibbi, Schellenberger, okay? Yeah. But I don't dismiss, and. Barry Weiss, I don't like leaving. her out. Free press is a really cool. thing that she's building there. And I like that she's able to. do something that I never saw at a. news organization before, which is. she's decidedly pro. -Israel, okay? She's Jewish and beyond. her own cultural and religious. affinity, she has an ideological. one. and she owns it, and she's out there. for it. You may disagree, that's. okay. But you know,

whereas the world that you. and I grew up in, media. -wise, they had all these opinions, but you'd never know it, you know. what I mean? You'd have to glean it. from what you saw on camera. Nobody ever came out and said it, you know, that we think that this is. right, we think this is wrong, very, very rarely. So what I like about it. is, I believe. that there's space for all of us. Okay, when I got into. this business 25 years ago, they. told me, you know network news.

is dead, right? The number one show on television is. World News Tonight. So the idea that it's dead, it's. not dead, it's just changing and. there's stratification. But I do think there's a challenge. afoot. People in every different platform. have to reconnect with their. constituency. Trust is at an all time low with. every kind of institution. Now within that is a burden for the. media, but also an opportunity. That's why I'm so excited that I. may have been in the wrong place at. other phases in my career, but I'm.

in the right place right now because. like NewsNation is like one. pebble on the beach at a time of, hey, everybody's going crazy about. this, not us. Tariffs are kind of scary. and they can hurt prices, but. Trump does this and he's. looking to get something done. Let's not microanalyze him saying. tariffs like this is definitely. going to happen this way forever. and let's see what happens. NewsNation were allowed to do that. Most outlets have to pick a side.

Tariffs, best thing, like Fox News. Tariffs are great, we can't wait, this is gonna be great, it's gonna. unleash the economy, get rid of the. income tax. MSNBC, this is the worst, it's gonna. crush the economy. You gotta have a take, you gotta. have a side. NewsNation is able to harness. the independent mentality. of, there's a plus minus. on this, right? and we're gonna have to see here, right? There's gonna have to be some. patience, right? And I love that space. It's harder, it's way harder than.

saying, I hate Trump. or Trump was sent by Jehovah. You know, those are much easier. positions, but I believe in. the potential. Well, honesty is kind of the point. I mean, I think you should be. allowed to arrive at whatever. conclusion you sincerely arrive at. and you should be able to tell. people that that's your job. And if you work at a place where, like, you know that you can't say. something you believe is true, it's. the wrong place for you. I agree. But look, we're benefiting from the. change. Do you feel that there are. things that you, as an unfair. question, ask you with the cameras. going? It's the only kind you ask,

Carl. benefiting from the change. to specialize in that. But do you, do you feel like. there are things that you can't say? Like if you came to a conclusion. now, I don't mean. about like some individual sex. life or like nasty personal attacks, but I mean like a policy position. that you came to that you would be. like, I probably can't say that. No, I'm there to say it. Um, so really you don't feel like. there are any red lines. My bosses are very worried. about you advancing agendas that. you don't disclose. Now - Me or one?

Me. You know what I mean? Well, if you come to News Nation, then yes, you too. But right now it's, you know, hey, look, if you feel that way, just, you better say it. Don't just stack your show with. guests that are all on one side of. something and then pretend you're. fair. So be honest. Don't do that. Oh, I love that and then pretend you're fair. So don't do. that Yeah, be transparent. The same thing. Be transparent, and. you may be wrong, right? That happens often. But own it, correct it, move on. Do not hide the ball. They really say that? The 100%.

Because also remember - Well, I. admire that. I'll just say I admire. that. NewsNation is - owned. by a company that really knows. local TV, right? They own the most local TV stations. What is, what. has the most currency in media. still? Visual media, local news. Um, the boss of. me directly, I have like 10 bosses. starting with dusty on up, but the. Mike Korn is an ABC. news pro who did every job. So he's not a corporate guy.

He was in the field. He knows how to edit. He was in the control room. He was, you know, he did all the. jobs. He's written the pieces. So he knows the alchemy of. journalism. So he understands when. someone's fake in the funk. and what's transparent versus what. is trickery. So they've got a good setup there. for it. However, I'm still a Cuomo, and it was really important to me. when Andrew decided he was gonna. run that I had to go to them and. say, I work for you. What do you want me to do on this? Do you want me to, I offered.

Do you want me to take a leave for. dependency of the campaign? I'm not running the campaign. I'm not part of the campaign. That's not gonna happen. But if you think, you know, I. haven't lived through this before. I don't want to hurt News Nation, what you're doing is so important, way more important than me. Do you want that? Now, obviously, they said no, you're being silly and. traumatized. But that was helpful also. Shokin And, and... Can Andrew win? Can he win? Can he win?

So I should say, I know Eric Adams. and I like him. Eric Adams can win. I am highly distressed by. how dirty and. chaotic and dangerous New York is. I'm really, really bothered. I almost don't even care about the. ideology. I don't care what. rent control debates or tax, I just. want to be safe walking down the. street. I get it. And he doesn't seem to have been. able to do that. Well, let's defend Eric Adams, shall. we? I have, but I'd like to. hear you do it. And so have I. I'd like to hear you do it.

why your brother's running against. them. That's not what my family. is about. If Andrew is. the better choice for the voters. in the primary, then he'll win. If he isn't, then he'll lose. And you sign up for that when you. decide to get into it. Do I want him to win? Of course, he's my brother. I don't even vote in New York City. So it's, you know, this is. a family thing for me. But all you got to do is Google it. I believe the indictment against. Eric Adams was weak sauce.

And yes, I heard much, much. later that they had more. They never put it out. An indictment is already just. probable cause. It's the lowest. layer of a prosecutorial instrument. It's totally immoral for the. government at any level to impugn. your character without charging you. If you have the evidence, charge me. and don't shut up. And they charged him, but they. should have brought out whatever. they said they had. What they said is everyone looked at. the indictment is like wait you. accepted airline upgrades And by the. way every member of Congress does. that all the time. I believed it was weak sauce. Now, other people disagreed with me,

that's fine. But I didn't know my brother was. doing anything politically when I. started my coverage of Mayor. Adams. And I believe Trump's. deal with him is not fair. to Eric Adams. Should have pardoned him or. dismissed the charges with. prejudice, meaning you can't bring. them again. Because think about it, Tucker, if I had that deal with you, is right now you're fine. You do what you want to do. But we're going to reassess after. this event in the future, that means. everything to you. And then we'll see if. I'm going to prosecute you.

It does seem a little like a leash. And I don't think it's fair. So, you know, your criticism, your analysis of, hey, I think he. should have been doing other things. My take on that is, okay, and the voters will decide that, but. the guy has the biggest. gorilla in the world staring. at him like he's food, and he's supposed to focus on his. job? When you sleep better, you live. better, you feel better, and you. live longer. Sleep is really important, but. there's a lot acting against. us who are trying to get a good.

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It's an American company, by the. way. Awesome. That's fair, but. you know, that was later in his. term. Like he didn't take crime. seriously. Nobody did. And so my question is, let's try. and take your brother and Adams out. of it. If you were running for mayor. of New York, what would you run on? Free pizza. You like it. You're going to attack. it. But now that you like it, you. thought about it. You're not going to attack it, but now that you like. it, you thought about it. I do like pizza, I obviously, a lot, too much, I've given up. pizza. Look, we both know the city very. well, right?

New Yorkers deserve their. reputation. It's a tough place. And it is a place. where the rules. have to mean something. It is too many people in. too small a space. to have anything chaotic. A little bit of a problem. blows up really fast. in that city. One, two, three, four, five things. happen in the subway.

It's like 5 ,000 things happen in. the subway. The feel becomes. magnified. So having grown up, right? I mean, I'm born and bred. It comes. I remember life in the. 70s, and. that's how people talk today. I think I could make a case that. statistically it ain't the 70s. in a lot of different ways for. the better, but that's how they. feel. And I haven't heard this talk. I haven't seen people on the subway. as I do now unless they're.

in their 20s and therefore unable to. look up from their screen because. they've been completely destroyed. by these devices. Everyone's looking. around. now on the subway. When you're walking on the street, eyes are up. You know, people have their hands. out, just like it was when it was. in the 70s. I remember, people were afraid. When you say you're going to the. city, people talk to you like you. need to have a plan. And that's corrosive. It hurts property values. It hurts the corporate interest in. being there.

So New York is a place that uniquely. needs to have that sense that. things are under control. When you say you're going to the city. And that is not an easy job. Not an easy job. Well, it just takes. a fascist. Um, to do it. No, it does. Not - No, the way - I. don't mean - The way that -. I don't mean the way that just slides. out of your mouth It's true. A fascist? Yeah, like. Bloomberg. I don't mean, I don't. mean fascist. He wasn't a fascist. I don't mean fascist and like hating. people on the basis of ethnicity or. anything like that. I mean like. someone who enforces the rules and. is not embarrassed about it at all.

It's just like, I'm sorry, that's. against the law. We're not putting up. with it. Not for one second. No, you can't. And by the way, you're smoking weed. on the street? How about no? Like, no. We're not, a little bit of Singapore. and New York City, or honestly, as someone who travels a lot, I find. it really embarrassing going to New. York. I find the airports embarrassing. The drive in is embarrassing. I'm an American. I love my country. LaGuardia is the number one airport, it's my brother's signature. achievement. LaGuardia is the number one airport. in the country. I don't know by what standard. I think it's way better, I agree.

But like it took like 20 years to do. that. It was pathetic. It's just like build the freaking. airport. Like everyone else does it. I was in the Doha airport two. days ago. I texted my wife with this. picture. I was like, this is what we. could have if people would just stop. being ridiculous. Build something beautiful, maintain. it. It's not that hard. It's hard, Andrew was the only one who could get. it done. I agree, but the. reason I come at you about. saying you need a fascist. I shouldn't have used the word fascist, but I mean you like need like. That's why I'm here. You need someone who's who's. committed.

to protecting the weak. Yes, but here's the. difference, and I know what you. mean. What I'm saying is this, and. it's worth examining right now with. what people are. worried about with the Trump. administration, is it's gotta be bigger than. you. The problem with fascism. is it's not about you, okay? It's not about Trump, it's not. about who is the mayor of New York. City. There's a system. there are institutions, there is. law and order. And you've got to work within that. and you've got to be zealous about.

wanting those things to work for the. right people the right way, but. it can't get any bigger for. the individual. Well, I would just strongly. agree with that. I'm totally opposed to cults of. personality. Because Bloomberg was. not fascist. He was good at using. the system. That's a term that I... That's why you got three terms. Yeah. Look, I hate, I think it should be legal. for politicians to name things after. themselves. was not No politician. should ever have anything named. after himself, that's my view, because we're paying these people, they're our servants, why are they. taking our money to build money to.

themselves? So I'm against all. self -aggrandizement by anybody, actually, especially politicians. I'm just saying, it's the greatest. city in the greatest nation on. earth, and it looks like garbage, like it smells, it's dirty, it doesn't work very well, it's. like, it's not acceptable, travel. around the world, not everyone lives. like that, and we don't have to. So like, let's just make it worthy. of the great nation that it. represents. Look, I think there are a lot of. people who feel that way. And I could explain it away. There are a lot of things that would. be really hard to control that are. at play in New York City, but it.

doesn't really matter at the end of. the day. It's how people feel. I think And look, I listen to my brother very. carefully about this. As someone other than his kids, I. mean, there's nobody that. Andrew matters more to than me. Andrew raised me. He's not just my brother. He's 13 years older than I am. Everything I'm into are all. his hobbies and attributes. Because he taught me all these. things. My father was so committed. to public service that he was away a.

lot when I was young. He was in Albany. and we were in Queens. So Andrew taught me. how to throw a ball, taught me how. to ride a bike, taught me how to. tackle, taught me how to defend. myself, taught me. why you're there for your family and. how, taught me about why you got to. keep the driveway clean and how to. work on cars. Like all these things, how to fish, how to boat, all these. things was my. brother. So I am really, really. attached to. him and his wellbeing.

And when you hear someone that you. love and care about say, hey, I think I'm gonna go run for. office again. I've got to serve. I know why that sounds great to. New Yorkers, but to me, it's, you want more. of that? That is the dirtiest, most unfair, savage business in the. world. There's no chance, it's like he's. telling me he wants to go wrestle a.

Komodo dragon. You know what I mean? It's like, hey, I really got to do this. You're going to bleed. They're actively going to try to. hurt you with no. regard for the merits. And we call it the game, but it's like thunderdome. So as someone who loves. Why would I be excited about him. wanting to expose himself? Of course not. But look, when I. hear him, it's like, you know, I. almost tear up because it's. so much like my father. My father used to describe public.

service. You know, my father hated that I. went into the media, by the way. I'm sure there's a... Sure. I'm sure my therapist could have. like a whole field. I don't even. open that box of chocolates with my. therapist, because I know I'd be. paying for the rest of my life about. just explaining that. But his problem with it was, why do you want to be part... of a group that just criticizes. people who are trying to get things. done when you could actually be. trying to get something done. And that's why he believed in public. service. Andrew is the same thing. He skips right past the.

price of entry, which I could never. get past it. I'd be like, no way I'm going to. have 100 Tucker Carlson's chewing on. my ass like a dog toy every day. Not going to happen. I won't be able to handle it. I want to fight them all the time. And he goes right past that to. all of these ideas. about what he could do in that. capacity and what needs to be done. And I'm like, yeah, but. you have to go through this. gauntlet to get to this place. just to try to do this really hard.

thing. And he looks at me like. So, you gotta, I gotta support him. I mean, I'm for that level of. intensity. You just cannot let. people wreck. the city. You can't let them live on. the sidewalks. You can't let them. smoke weed in the park. That's how he feels can't let him smoke weed and I agree with you. I would just want somebody else to. deal with it Yeah, no. Because it's look it's such a. hellscape right now. Look what works in politics if. I'm running against you for. anything.

Okay Strategy is simple. We got to destroy him. What can we find on him? Well, actually, I think the lesson. is it doesn't work because Trump is. now the president. Well, that is true. He did. They went after his family, they tried to put his sons in jail, they tried to put him in jail. They went after his family, they tried to put his sons in jail, they. tried to put him in jail, right? They shot. him. But he is. a unicorn, also. He is the true Teflon Don. But it's an inspiration, like, you know, whatever you think. of Trump or what he does, he's. basically saying the same things he. was saying 25 years ago. You can pull the tape on Larry King.

Live about tariffs, about immigration, about foreign. policy. He's basically, I mean, he's. changed, of course, on a lot of. little things, but on the big. things, exactly the same. And he just kept going and. it worked. So maybe Trump has a lesson that. there are limits to what the. personal attack is. That's what I -. Maybe Trump is a -. That's what I was going to say, is. that I think that he's more. of a. symptom than he is. a cause.

The election message was, you guys are focusing on things that. don't matter to us the way. you want them to. And what does matter to us. doesn't matter enough to you. And what they saw in. Trump were two main things. One, the personification. of this, that you are trying to. destroy this guy on a basis that we. are not really okay with. And the second thing is that. he wants to disrupt all.

the things that we believe. need disruption. And his views between. the cancel culture and. different cultural wars, as we. call them, Donald Trump. for whatever you want to say about. him negatively, approximated. normal to. the American voters more than the. Democrats did. And that's the message. Well, the tranny stuff just scared. the crap out of everybody. I mean, that's an example of what. I'm saying. And that's an example of what.

I think there are many examples, but. that one was like so florid and. crazy that, and it's still. going on, that to this day I don't understand. it. And we live in a world where. there are always gonna be people who. want to wear women's clothes or. whatever, fine. Oh, I understand it. Look, you saw it, you saw it. To elevate traneism to like the. top of the agenda? I can understand. Oh, I understand it. I can explain it to you very easily, it's readily apparent. And look, we saw the same. mistake on display.

when the president addressed. Congress, okay? That is not a time for. you to be obnoxious. If he wants to be obnoxious, fine. You are there at a respect for the. office, there are rules of decorum. in that place. I believe there. should be rules of decorum in all. places, in media and politics, but there aren't. But there are there. And they willfully and. wantedly abused them. to make a point that they are. against Trump. And it was a.

bad look for the. Democrats. What is it an extension of? We, as Democrats, they. will tell you, we are resisting. who he wants to abuse. and what he wants to destroy. Like what? Trans are a unique minority in. this country. They are uniquely. targeted. They need protection. We are going to protect them, OK? But this particular aspect. of the issue,

guys my size who decide to become. female and play against my daughter. in high school, that is. not what you need to protect them. from or against. That's something that doesn't make. sense. Nope. We have to hold to the. purity of the cause of. protecting this minority group. Yeah, but you're not protecting. them. You're protecting the people. that are playing against them. because they're 230 pounds. Yeah, it almost never happens. But if it happens once, it's something that never needed to. happen. The purity test,

the absolutist nature of binary. politics, that if you are. for something, you have to be all in. on it beyond any conception of. reason. That's what we're dealing with in. our politics. That's what that is. Well, of course, I can think of a. million topics on which that is. true. I think - I see that with guns. on the right, by the way. Maybe right. You know, I'm an absolutist on that. I could tell you why. It's not even that interesting. But what I think, but you know, the. right to self -defense is a part of. natural law.

The idea that a man can become a. woman by wishing it so is. not only a violation of natural. law, it's a violation of nature. itself. It's like inherently insane. It's a denial of physical reality. And so why? So if the argument is, you know, there are people with weird sexual. impulses who we shouldn't like. scapegoat and hurt, I mean, I'm. totally in agreement with that. It is a perversion of live and. let live. So, but to. force the rest of us to tell. a lie. That's the perversion. That's where, that's when you feel.

like, well, this is a spiritual. attack. No, in the interest of living like this, that's right. Well, it doesn't have to be a lie. In the interest of live and let. live, right, which is a signature. American freedom, or should be, right, you don't want. these people to live the way they. want to live. You are infringing on. their rights. We will protect them. I understand the political. philosophy behind that, but. once it entered a realm. of where the people that you. say you're trying to protect are now. a problem for. another group that need protection.

also, which are these kids, they didn't click. into the common sense. It's more than that though, it's. like, the. idea that the government should be. involved in people's sex lives is. a shocking concept to me. I don't think it should be. Me either. And they're promoting. homosexuality, promoting. it, and I'll tell you how we know. that they're promoting it, because. its incidence has risen. dramatically. Now, when I was. a young man, there was a debate over. what percentage of the population is.

gay. I was never anti -gay for the. record, and I'm not now. But it's an interesting question. They would say, you're born that. way. You're born gay. So you cannot criticize someone on. the basis of his immutable. characteristics. Great, I totally agree with that. But then we saw the absolute. incidence of self -reported. homosexuality like triple. So clearly people aren't born that. way. You know, 30 % of. eighth graders were born gay. No, that's not true. And so there's been this dramatic. rise that none of us are allowed to. notice. It's like, you can't notice. that. Well, why? Okay, yes I can.

And I'm sort of thunderstruck. by it. Like, what is that? And it clearly is. a manifestation of the deeper truth, which is maybe some people. are born gay, but people can also. be moved towards. self -identifying as gay. And that's exactly what's happened. So why, anyway, so like, I don't think that's good. I don't think that's good. And I also don't understand why the. government should be... taking my tax dollars to convince. people that certain forms of sex are.

better than others, particularly non. -procreative sex. Like, what the hell is that? Well, I, it's an easy. legal and moral backstop that. government should not be in the. business of type. Okay? That's easy. There's plenty of things that. government should be doing that. isn't necessary. I believe that is. an extension to how people. choose their own. bodies and how. they use them. I believe in. reproductive rights. I think it is a. right. However,

I see gay acceptance. a little differently. The difference of a generation from. our kids to us is it's. much safer to say that you're gay. now than it was. You used to get beat up, you used to. get ostracized, you used to get. excluded. That happens less now. It still happens, but it happens. less. Is there also a. cultural formation that we see. like in America? Everything goes in these big swings. in different directions, always. reaction formation. Are we more gay -friendly?

in our culture, aggressively. so, assertively so, than we were. when we were growing up? Yes. Can that make it more attractive to. young people who are struggling and. trying to figure themselves out? Maybe. And that's why I remember when I was. in college, there were a lot of. people who were gay in college. who weren't gay afterwards. No, a lot of them were gay in. college and gay afterwards, but I. think there's something to. experimenting and certain people. play out with identity. play out with identity it's like okay. but I just want to get to like the. core question which is where does. this come from being.

gay is it inborn. we were told you're born that way. okay so where's the gene there. isn't one so I don't know the. genetics but I believe no one has. isolated it you I don't know the genetics, but I believe no one has. isolated it. But you haven't noticed when you. were raising your kids that there. would be certain kids that you were. like I think this 100 % 100 %. Oh, yes. I like us where they were too young. to be It's gonna be good. mimicking it. I did I absolutely did notice that. and so I'm not saying there's not a. genetic component I'm just saying. and I don't know the answer is the. truth but what I do know.

is if you've got a third of middle. schoolers saying I'm not. heterosexual that's not. place to a fad that's not more than. it does. place to a fad more than it does. That's not inborn at all. I think that there's a, two things. can be true. You can have that it's easier to. be accepted today. I'm not saying that it's. the same. I'd still believe that. when people are gay, it's like the. main descriptor of them. Whereas you and I don't identify, oh, Tucker Carlson, you know him, straight guy, but when you're gay, you still get labeled that way. But I think two things can be. happening at the same time, that.

there is a culture of persuasion. in, let's say, in a guided or misguided sense. of acceptance, and. I think it is safer for people to. come out now than it was a. generation ago. Yes, both are true, but it's, I guess the. point I'm making is it's really. clear that the federal government, state governments, local. governments, and NGOs are promoting. homosexuality among kids, obviously. true to me, and transgenderism. among kids. And my point is, that is not acceptable.

And when I was a child, if an adult went up to a kid in a. park and started talking to him. about his sex life, you could shoot. the guy because that's. not acceptable, to talk to. other people's children about sex. And now it's not only acceptable, it's the rule and it's paid for by. my tax dollars. And I'm just saying. like, that's really destructive. It is a very persuasive argument. I don't know. It certainly hasn't. been my, it hasn't been my. experience in my kids' schools, public and private, um, that I felt that they were being.

indoctrinated. They didn't have pride week or pride. month or pride celebrations. I don't remember it specifically, but even if they did, let's say they. did. I don't, I can't prove that. right now, but let's say they did. Um, that to me. is not the same thing as. indoctrination. I have no problem. with adults and. children. being exposed. to different belief systems. and different ways and. different cultures. I have no problem with tolerance. Now indoctrination.

how it works. not tolerance. Pride is the opposite of tolerance. Pride is a celebration. Right. And so you're celebrating. certain sex acts with other people's. kids and I. just think right there you've. crossed a line. Well, Pride Week doesn't have to be. children, right? When you have the, you know, the St. Patrick's Day parade, it's not making people be Irish. I totally agree. Right, a Pride parade. I'm talking about kids, I'm talking. about schools, and by the way... You're talking about in the sca - I. don't have any problem with. heterosexual pride, gay.

pride, you know, people are happy. about the way that they live, that's. fine. I have a huge problem. with schools. or governments getting involved. in the sexuality of children. Yeah, I 100 % agree. But every school does it. There's not one school that doesn't. have gay promotion. Their job is to. keep everybody safe. No, but it's not safe, it's. promoting it. Their job - There's not one school that doesn't have -. Their job is to keep everybody safe. No, I got you. I get why it would bother you. I'm saying their job is to keep kids. safe, which means if my kid is. gay, your kid can't beat them up.

on that basis. That's the role of the school. That's the rule of the law is, you know, people have to be able to. live and be free and safe. It's different to you trying to. teach my kid to be gay. If that's going on, obviously it. would be a problem. I mean, I think if I've never. experienced a massive percentage of. middle schoolers are gay in general. possessions are overrated But there. are some things you really would not. want stolen and to me. Family shotguns including a. whole bunch of them. I got from my. father are at the top.

of that list So I keep my dad's. shotguns in a Liberty safe. because it's safe and. it's also really attractive. Liberty Safe just created something. really cool. It's a limited edition. safe that commemorates the. inauguration of Donald Trump, America's 47th president. The original design celebrates Trump. and his swearing in while upholding. Liberty's commitment to building. their safes right here in the United. States. And they went all out on. this one. It's the special 47. edition. It features a one -of -a. -kind artwork that pays homage.

to the president. It's very, very cool. Not all safes are created equal. There are plenty out there, and a. lot of the manufacturers slap an. American -sending name on the label, but they are not made here. They're from China or other foreign. markets. Liberty safes are made. in the United States. For over 30 years, Liberty has made. its safes right here, and that. matters. Because when you buy a Liberty safe, you're supporting American workers. and American values. Their products are more than just a. place to protect your dead shotguns, for example.

They are a symbol of this country. So celebrate this historic moment, secure the things that you. want to keep forever in a. Liberty Safe, visit LibertySafe .com. or find a Liberty dealer or retailer. near you to order your limited. edition safe today. Liberty Safe, made in America. Let me ask you a question that. for some reason seems to have sunk. beneath the waves. The JFK story 62 years. ago, the presidents murdered, pretty. clear that the story we were told. isn't true and.

It bothers people because it gets to. a core question, which is, is the. president capable. of making independent decisions, or is there a threat of physical. violence against all American. presidents that. persists? Well, we know there's a threat of. violence because we just watched our. president get shot in the head. Of course, but from some... No, no, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, or from whatever. group has. been able to keep these files secret. for 62 years. So my question to you is like, what. is that? Why have these been secret.

for so long? You know, the idea of the deep state. to me is a. convenience more than it is a. reality. It's a boogeyman. Why don't they put it out? Because institutions protect. themselves, Tucker, as we both know. Really? And there is clearly. information in those files that. are going to make the CIA look bad. Just the CIA? Well, whatever. different ages. No, no, no, whatever. I mean, let's... Well, I don't know, because I haven't. seen it. Okay, so here's... I'm always -. Okay, so I've always thought that.

and then in January, you know There was a scramble over. who's gonna get what jobs in the new. administration and at one point. there was someone who was being. discussed for a. job in the Intel world and. a member of the SSCI. the Senate Select Committee on. intelligence and Intel Committee. went To the people. making the decision and said you. cannot hire this person because this. person will be certain To. push for the release of the JFK. files. So this is in this. fact So this is in 2025,

less than two months ago, and. you have a sitting member of the. United States Senate whose main. goal is to keep. those files secret. And then you have to ask yourself, what is that? Why? Yeah. Exactly, why? Yeah. Why? Were they even alive? What is that? Were they even alive? Of course this, no one was allowed, I was 62 years ago. Yeah, I know. And by the way, the institution, no. one can even tell you who the CIA. director was and who, do you. remember the name of the CIA. director? Yes, I know! John McComb, I think 1963, but. that person is like completely lost. to history except a specialist. Yeah.

And the CIA has already been through. 50 years ago, the church committee. hearings, 1975, where we sort of. know that they're sassing people, dosing people with acid, all this. stuff. It's like, the CIA has. already been discredited. So if you're telling me that. six weeks ago, a member of the. United States Senate was trying to. keep someone out of a job in. order to keep these files secret, that is to protect the CIA, I don't believe that for a second. So what do you think it is? I don't. know. But this is, I mean, there's no one at the CIA.

Who's involved? Then. Actually, yeah, who's involved. in the Kennedy sessions? There's no one in America who's. involved in them. assassination. So here's what I. know. First of all, I don't believe that. the CIA has been completely. discredited. I believe in the. institutions. They have to be. checked. The media used to be in the. business of checking the. institutions. Now we're in the. business of defending them tacitly. because we have a president that. attacks them all the time. But, the. - So Mike Pompeo gets. in there, he's in charge of the CIA. Trump says, I'm releasing the files, okay? Somebody says something. to Mike Pompeo that he then goes to.

the president of the United States. and says, you can't release these. things. And Trump acknowledges. it. Now, do I believe that Trump. did it under threat? No, I think that Trump. just decided that whatever he was. being told made sense. And it's, and I'm not even speaking. of Trump or Pompeo, who's a very. sinister person. And you're absolutely right, Pompeo. was the driver behind that, but. who's driving Pompeo? I mean, it doesn't actually make. sense, the story. It doesn't make sense. And by the way, we have the file. numbers of most.

of the files that have not been. disclosed. So it's like Trump issues. an executive order on January 23rd. saying you're gonna release this. stuff. They kind of can't not. release it. And yet now it's. the first week of March and they. haven't released it. So pressure is currently being. applied on the administration not to. release those files. It seems that way. By whom? I don't know. Some like mid -level analyst at. CIA who just doesn't want to. discredit the institution he works. for, I don't think so. Like, what is that? I don't know. I don't believe it's.

the Rockefellers, the Pope and no, whatever. I'm not even guessing. All I'm saying is we can say with. certainty. I don't believe it's the Rockefellers, the Pope, or no. whatever. I don't believe that either. that there is a force acting. on these people, a very. serious force, to the point where. they're embarrassing themselves. because they promised they'd release. us and they haven't. Look, I don't - I don't disagree. with the - Look, what the -. Look, what the hell is that? I don't know, but it's not just. that, right? Now we get this weird. story about the Epstein files. Like who even cares? You know what I mean? Like who, I. want it released. I believe in transparency. I think it's the route to trust.

And it's not just cause I'm in the. media. It's just common sense. But AG Bondi, I don't have any. reason to be anti AG Bondi. And she says she's going to release. the files. And I don't even care that they. released them to their pod people. I mean, I thought that was stupid, but I mean, that's fine. They want. to do what they do it. They're playing to preference. Okay. Now, then there's a story about, well, the New York FBI, they hid all. the files and then we're gonna have. to get them. We're gonna fire this. guy who's supposedly by most. accounts is a pretty solid guy that. they had quit. Well, where are the files?

Where are they? And because I thought Trump was the. antidote to this. And to me, the heartbreak has. already come and gone. UFOs to me is. the best example of what you're. picking up. We're picking it up. Please back up, and I. totally agree. I just want to just. linger for one second on the Epstein. things. So what is that? I mean, once again, you clearly have. a force that's applying. measurable pressure. on the people who should have the. power, the elected president of the. United States should have the power. under our system.

That's called democracy, and his. appointees have. derivative power from him. But they appear to be powerless. in the face of some other source of. power, and the question is, what is. that source? I don't -. And where's your boy Kash Patel? I mean, he went in there to. supposedly bust all this up. I can't answer that. He put out this. weird tweet, you know, that was. very general, like, you know, things. are going to change and we're going. to do this and that. After we learn that someone under. his control now, right, because he's. the head of the FBI, in that. office that's under him,

why wasn't he there? Why didn't he go there and say, give. me the files, give them to me? Weren't you just saying the deep. states aren't real? I don't know, I don't believe in the. Deep State as a bogeyman, but look, they're his guys. I'm just saying, why didn't he go. there and say, give me the f - What. the hell is going on? But look! So let's let's just use logic. I can't answer that question. I think it's a great question. But I'm let's just use logic for. one second Clearly. if you watch this in my case. for the same as you 35 years. watching this stuff carefully and. somebody, you know Gets in office. I'm gonna do this at the other thing. and then like five days later.

They're like, well actually Someone. has called that person to say. There's something you didn't know. Here the consequences of doing that. someone has applied very serious. pressure on this person. Pressure so serious that that person. is willing to humiliate. himself. So wait a minute, here's. the part I don't understand. So who's that. person exerting the pressure? So who's that person exerting the pressure? But you are. uniquely qualified to. get this answer because one. of us can call the President of the. United States right now and ask. him, and the other one is me.

So why don't you know? uh... that's a great question and we. kind of have to show what i what i. brought to it was the knowledge that. a member of the senate intel. committee i'm not guessing called. over to you cannot appoint this. person. So why don't you expose that person, first of all, so we can start. chasing after him or her. Tom Cotton of Arkansas did that. Tom Cotton? Yes, correct. And did you ask him? I haven't. No, I haven't asked him. What the hell is going on with you? What's going on with you? I'd like. to, um, and... Kind of makes people suspicious of.

you, by the way. Go ahead. Because if you know that -. Go ahead. Because if you know that if you know. that Tom Cotton said you. can't pick this person because. That is correct. And then you didn't go to him and. find out why? Well, I need to sit down with him. I'm not sure that he'll do an. interview with me. You are, you are, you are like. the spirit animal of that. administration. I don't know, but it's a fair. question. It's a totally fair question. And the answer is, I hadn't thought. to do that. And there's a lot going on and I've. been distracted and I've.

kind of been -. But now I think you're part of the. deep state, and just like. that. just like that. I probably wouldn't be saying any of. this if I was part of the deep. state. Unless that's what they would. do, is make me think that it. exists, but you're not sure because. it's actually you. One of the worst things that ever. happened to me ever is last. year when I was interviewing Putin, it was such a long interview and it. was being translated and I couldn't. always hear the translation very. well. And apparently in it, he says, well, you applied to work at CIA, which I did. You know, I'm not hiding that. I didn't get in.

And your father worked for the Intel. world and all. I didn't hear him say. that. I did not hear him say that. And I have been living with that. ever said, I have nothing to do with. any of that for whatever it's worth. But the number of people have texted. me but like, oh, you're working for. the CIA. It's like, no, actually, nobody believes more strongly in. radical reform at CIA than I do. With, I would say some knowledge of. the subject. Look, I mean, people can think I. work for the deep state. I don't think there is a. deep state.

Here's all I'm saying someone is. applying massive pressure. to elected officials, and has for. a very long time, and I would like. to know who that is. Ask Mike Pompeo why he told you. Oh, I have, oh, I have. And what'd he say? And when I got into it. with Mike Pompeo, no, I mean, I. Ask Mike Pompeo why he told you. Oh, why half? Oh, why half? And what'd. he say? I've talked to this before. I don't want to be boring, but I. when I tell you to ask Dan Crenshaw, but he's not gonna take No, he's not. for sure. He's not gonna call him a. liberal, but you wonder. Dan Crenshaw's Dan Crenshaw is. emotionally out of control and and I. feel for it. I honestly I'm not stop.

provoking them then I. Didn't even provoke him I. just pointed it out, I just pointed. it out. You provoked him. I saw it on stage. His state was just invaded by Mexico. and he's worried about Ukraine. It's like what? Wake up son. Here are your duties. Let me put. them in order. To your family, to your. community, to your voters, to your. state, to your nation, and maybe. Ukraine down there at the bottom. But anyway, that's all I was saying. Here's my point. Please. I am. really concerned,

not just because You know, I. am curious and I want to get to the. bottom of mysteries, which is true. But I'm really concerned that. the failure to disclose big things. like details about the murder of. a president in a democratic. country, republic, that that will convince. people that our system itself is. fake. And it's kind of hard to argue that. it's real. I totally agree. If you can't even know who killed. the president. Transparency is trust. 62 years later, Mike Pompe was. working to keep American citizens.

from knowing who murdered their. president? Who are you working for, Mike Pompe? And we just had an. election. What is that? And by the way, I just want to say one. time, you cannot convince me, I'm not some world expert in the. CIA, but I've certainly watched it. closely over the years. It's not the CIA, the CIA. CIA is like a huge federal agency. with all kinds of different. components and warring tribes within. and like, there's no. CIA, Bill Burns. is not like calling. Trump and being like, don't release the files.

You don't wanna just credit CIA. look the president knows we just had. an election where he was hammering. on these things and even with uaps. or ufos whatever terminology. you want we couldn't get more. information these things are all. over the place sure some are. helicopters some are fixed wing okay. not all of them and. they don't know of course they know. they spend hundreds of millions of. dollars on the programs and then we. get all our hopes up Yes, I agree. Right? The media loves mocking. NewsNation about this because they. think that, oh Cuomo thinks.

they're little green men in the. basement of some building. No, I don't. It's about knowing that we. spend hundreds of millions of. dollars and use special operators to. do things that you won't tell us. about. And at a minimum, you. should say, well, here's why we. won't tell you. So what are they? That's exactly right. Well, so, but what are they, do you. think? I don't know what the fuck. they are. The point is that they. know And they won't. tell us things, and I think it is. anathema to democracy. And of course I agree with. everything you're saying except one.

specific point, which is I'm not. sure they know. They have programmed. They certainly know more than we do. Put it that way. They do. They may know that they don't really. know, which is the scariest thing of. all. And I've certainly called a. lot on this topic. I've stopped talking about it in. public. I've tried to stop thinking. about it because. it's just one of those things that. drive you crazy. But my strong impression is. that they don't really know that. there isn't a consensus on this and. that they're not. you know, from Russia or China. He campaigned on it.

It was supposed to be a no -brainer. And then they put out exactly what. the Biden order. No, I'm aware of that, I'm. aware of that, and I'm. aware of that, do you think, I mean, that's just my view, I could be. completely wrong, but I don't think. it's as simple as they know exactly. what's going on and they're hiding. it. Well again, these are your people. Why don't you talk to them? They love you. I have. Oh my gosh, I. have. So what do you got for me? And I think... Come all the way down. here. We don't, we don't know. Cross. all these bridges. We don't know. And I think that's kind of the. scarier answer. So what do you got for me? I come all the way down here. We don't, we don't know. Cross all these bridges. is flying over military bases. or shutting them down and you shut.

shutting down military. Yeah, and you don't shoot them down. and then figure out what. it was? Maybe you can't. That was a - You. know, so that's, and. so look, I mean, I think we're. getting to the same answer if. there is a very obvious mystery. that's publicly known, there's. public pressure to solve the. mystery, to divulge what you know, and you don't, then there's. a real reason behind it. It's not just ass -covering. Or do you have? Or do you have the arrogance to. believe that you don't have to tell. me? No, not anymore, not anymore.

because now that, especially in this administration. that was elected on the promise of. transparency, there's a real reason. because there's tons of counter. pressure. People are aware, like. where the hell are my Kennedy files? What's going on with these things. over in New Jersey? You said they. were over your house in Bedminster. What is it? And what is this Epstein thing, which all of us watched, George Stephanopoulos is having. dinner with those guys, everyone you. know is over at Epstein's house, like Ehud Barak is there every day, Like, what the hell is this? Who killed this guy? He was clearly killed, obviously.

with suicide. Look, just start there. Show us the files that. substantiated the theory of. his suicide. Just show them to us. Or where's your investigation into. his death, which you promised. Attorney General Barr that you're. gonna do. Show us. And you never did. I guess what I'm saying is if you. take three steps back, you're like, wait, this really is, this isn't. just, you know, maybe some of the. details are wrong or certainly. stories like this draw all the. wackos like a bug light for sure and. they come up with these fantastical. theories to explain it.

But just the knowable facts, the confirmed facts suggest. something really, really big. The moment that I never thought much. about the Epstein story until I. realized that the Republican, two -time Republican Attorney. General Barr lied. about it. Why would Barr lie about this? Epstein's a big Democratic donor. Barr was not close to Trump. He's not covering for Trump. What is that? And I don't know the answer, but. that was the moment where I was. like, whoa. All of a sudden, Bill Kristol's.

lawyer is involved in this, which he. was. You know, I don't know, there's just. a lot. There's a lot there. There's so much there that it starts. to make you nervous and it makes you. think like maybe the, it's not just that things are. screwed up on the margins, but maybe. at the core is something really. dark. I don't know. I don't either. Look, this is the problem with the. vacuum of information, right, is. that you then start I don't either. speculating about why they won't. just tell you these things, and... And I'm not I'm not gonna speculate. on it because I don't I don't know.

and I don't even have like really. good theories I do have some. theories but they could be. completely wrong. All I'm saying is. a Rational person arrives. inevitably at the conclusion that. there's a real reason these have. not been discussed. It's not just. entropy. I mean, I have a conspiracy theory. about it. I'm not so sure anymore. We love the word patriot, okay? We love it. We love to say that. we're patriots. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know anymore. When I look at the Trump.

administration, I'm not. accusing anybody of anything. treasonous. I'm just saying there seems to be a. lot of currency these days in. destroying things. And I've never seen a president. in our lifetime. say that everything in. government is bad. Trump is the only president, or even. his speech, which I thought was well. written and well delivered for what. he wanted to try to achieve, which is, hey, I got a lot of balls. in the air. Forget about me promising what would.

happen day one. Stuff's gonna get worse before it. gets better, kind of vibe, which I. get why he wanted that speech, given. what's happened in the polls. Justice doesn't work. The elections don't work. Wall Street is. corrupt. None of the institutions of. government can do everything. All the tax dollars are wasted. It's like, I keep getting the same. message from them. And Musk, to me, has been a huge disappointment. I believe the man is a genius,

okay? He has done remarkable things. He doesn't know that. the federal judiciary is able to. check the executive. He doesn't know that. social security, the trust fund, isn't part of our debt structure. I can't believe a genius doesn't. know these things. So then why would. he be messaging this way? Unless he doesn't want people. to like the justice system. He doesn't want people to want. social security. He doesn't want them to believe The. government can do anything. And I don't understand that as a.

political message from a guy who's. in charge of everything now. And what is underlying it in terms. of your real ambition? Think I can answer some of them. Um, I think Elon, you know builds electric cars and. rockets and tunneling equipment. and telecom. You know satellite based telecom, etc. Etc. He's a builder of things. He's a businessman. He's an engineer. You know, I'm not surprised. He doesn't know the details of how. social security is structured at all. And I'm not surprised that as.

a naturalized American, he's not, you know, didn't grow up a. schoolhouse rock and doesn't. understand the three branches. perfectly. His job, from what I can tell, is to deal with the one thing that. nobody has dealt with, which is, which will be the end of the. country, which is the country's. bankruptcy. So the debt is what? 37. 36 .9, something like. 37 trillion. Revenues last year, 2024, total federal revenues were under 5?

That doesn't work, and at a certain. point, the people who are floating. the country, the bond buyers, the. foreign bond buyers, like I'm not, this doesn't, and everything will. collapse. And that's been known for a. long time. No one has dealt with it. And from what I can tell, Elon's job is to try and get. the spending down, and no one's been. able to do that. Well, Get This Spending Down has to. be in the budgeting process. To me, it's a penny wise, pound. foolish notion.

I'm okay with getting rid of waste, fraud, and abuse. You and I grew up. listening to both parties argue. when the other one was in power, that there was all this waste, fraud, and abuse, and you had to. curtail it. And I know it's. true, it's always been true, nobody. has ever looked for it and failed to. find it. I'm okay with them doing. that, but I'll tell you what, if. they had called up Carlson Cuomo, and said, Uh, would you guys like. to serve your country and, uh, see what you can find in terms of. waste fraud and abuse? And we said, yes. I'll tell you what we wouldn't do is.

keep going off. half cocked every. day about what we were finding. when we weren't sure. We would not do that. We would have immediately come to an. agreement. Yeah, we'd probably. Let's look! Let's lo - Let's find. stuff, okay? And then we're gonna go to Congress. and we're gonna say, look at all. this shit we found. And because we don't trust them, we. would then go public with it at the. same time. Yeah, I don't think that's I we. would have a blue ribbon Commission. and we present our findings He's. going on half cock none of that's.

worked and I feel like But he is. going off half... We don't know if this is going to. work or not. I'm praying that it does, because I. think it's our last chance to save. the country. I'm fine with it working. I want it. to work. I feel like he's working. against his own goals by getting. things wrong all the time. Maybe, but big picture is. right. So USAID, which I grew up around in. Washington, I. really grew up around it. I can just tell you firsthand, having seen it, it is a force for. evil in the world. I think it does probably good things. on the margins, but bottom line,

it is destabilizing other. governments. It's a form of the. ugliest kind of imperialism, totally. detached from American interests. It's like really bad. And the more. you know, that's why it's so. shocking to read it all, the more. indefensible it becomes. The Secretary of State disagrees. with you. He may or may not. I'm just saying, you know, he's from. Miami, I'm from DC. So I just tell you, I have, I. think deep exposure to this. And there's no doubt. By the way, USAID gets. zeroed out. How many third world presidents. complained about that?

Did you see any being like, oh my. gosh, we want our aid. They don't want American aid. in that form because it destabilizes. democratic governments. It overturns the culture of the. country. Oh, you need more trans. athletes. They hate it and there's nothing. they can do about it. I don't think a single foreign. president in a poor country. complained when we shut off that aid. because they didn't want it. So that tells you right there. Now that's a minuscule part of the. entire federal budget. Agreed. And he just happened to start with. the agency that's investigating him. I don't think USAID has.

an investigative arm. Okay, they do, okay. Well, whatever, Elon's being. attacked on many sides. This was before anything happened. Look, I'm just saying, you and I. wouldn't have picked an agency that. was looking into one of us without. letting people know that. I'm not even aware of that. And why didn't you tell us? And why didn't he tell us? Big picture, the government is. strangling the country. I don't think there's any doubt. about that. What does that mean? It means that the richest. place in the United States is the. one place that produces nothing but. bureaucratic jobs, D .C. It's the richest place and it's the.

highest concentration of wealth in. the United States. The counties around D .C. are the richest. They're like the majority of the top. 10 are in D .C. And all that money is federal money. None of those people can ever be. fired or are. It's not even clear what they're. doing. A lot of their budgets are. classified. The Intelli -IC, it's like all. classified. You don't even know what they're. spending. They own businesses around the. world. This is a fact. I mean, they'll admit it if you ask. them. And basically there's no democratic. control over any of this. The voters have no say in. how this money is spent and the. people spending it are beyond any.

kind of correction. There's nothing you can do about it. And so it's truly out of. control in a way that makes. democracy impossible. And it's also they're acting in. strong interest. And then there's the debt overhang, which really threatens in an. imminent way to make all of these. conversations just irrelevant. If we're a poor country that can't. support a military and. can't keep up with our. own infrastructure, then like none. of this stuff even matters. So do you believe that the answer is. to change. the institutions, to destroy.

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My sense is that you're not going. to get anywhere unless, and I think this was their. calculation, you come. out like a freaking. wild animal out of a box. So fast, so hard. that you intimidate the shit out. of everyone into silence long. enough that you gain momentum to. continue the process of paring. back government. But you really have. to immediately occupy the moral. high ground. You need to. You can't get into debate with.

Benny Thompson over funding. of this or that agency. You really have to get up. here and look down at Benny Thompson. and say, I can't believe that you're. participating in this scam for. decades. That hurt this country, impoverished its citizens. You did this. And it's only from that posture that. you have any power to negotiate the. reforms necessary. You sort of have to do what the. trans lobby, the human rights. campaign did. which is you sort of come out of. nowhere and rather than sort of make. the case that, hey, don't beat up. trans kids, which I'm for, don't.

beat up trans kids or anybody. They come out and they're like, you're a transphobe, we're gonna. picket your house and kill you if. you say anything. And people are like, holy shit, they're so intimidated that they. just kind of go along with your. program. I think a. functional country doesn't operate. that way, but this is not a. functional country. This is a country that is like more. dysfunctional than we will admit to. ourselves. And that may be the only option for. reform. But one thing that I think. no honest person can disagree with, we need reform, like immediately,

on every level. Our military needs to be reformed. The budgeting process needs to be. reformed. The way that our economy is. structured clearly benefits. just a tiny percentage of the. population. That's not sustainable, et cetera, et cetera. Like we need reform badly. We can't keep doing it this way. Well, we've been saying that a long. time. I know. And Trump is the first, and again, I. don't know if it's gonna work. I'm praying that it will, because. this country is the last hope of the. world. I really believe that more. than ever, having just come back. from other countries. That's why we have to make our. kids travel, because everybody.

thinks America is the worst place in. the world until you go somewhere. else. Dude, yes. And the thing that we need to. preserve, I'm more convinced. That's why I'm a little worried. about all the bashing of our. institutions. Reform, sure. Do it better, do it differently, do. it less, do it more, whatever it is, sure. But the idea that. there is no more justice in America, I don't believe that. All the elections are rigged, I don't believe that. We can't function, it's. demonstrably false.

So making things better is fine. if you have the ideas and the. wherewithal to make it happen. But what I'm sensing from this. administration. is it's all broken, tear it. all down. And that's easy to say, but I don't know that. it's good. Well, it's actually easy to do. It's easy to tear things down, much easier than it is to build. them. And you wanna be careful of. revolutionary moments. I mean, very few improve things. Ours did, I think in this country.

250 years ago, very few others. did. I can't really think of any. that did. Well, we had an oppressive force, you know, interestingly, and this is. something I'm very anxious for you. to explain to me. So I get fired and I'm watching the. Ukraine war and it. was personally maddening to. me because I had not covered. a conflict since I got involved in. the business. So I'm watching, the whole country's. behind Ukraine. When did you get. fired? Right there, like 20, 21, when did I. get fired? Yeah, so right when the. Ukraine war broke out, I was.

fired and it was very, It was a real. reinforcer to me about how much. I had lost. But anyway, I was much more. concerned about what was happening. in Ukraine. So everyone's on board. They're blue and yellow ribbons all. over my neighborhood. I was not on. board at all. Well, the country was. The Republicans were and the. Democrats were. And I kept hearing, boy, you know, it's like they're. kind of like us. They're fighting. against this oppressor and trying to. shut it off so they can be their own. way and get away from the. kleptocracy and everything else. And then Trump has that bad phone. call with Zelensky. leads to an impeachment that I.

thought was a complete waste of. time. You were never going to remove. them and it's a political operation. So I didn't know why they did it, but that's their choice. They went their way. Then Biden comes in. Everybody's still doing what they. were doing to try to help Ukraine. Biden is slow walking it, not giving. them what they needed. The wrong kind of ambivalence. Now Trump comes back and all of a. sudden all the people who are in. favor of Ukraine on the right now. say that it's a kleptocracy and. Polanski. is a bad guy and Putin,

you know, not so bad. Russia, not so bad. Their concerns about NATO, pretty. justified. It's really NATO and. America that has. done the wrong thing here and forced. Russia's hand. And Ukraine and Zelensky kind of did. too and they're really dirty and. they're stealing all our money and. selling all our stuff. I don't believe. any of it. And I hear it all the time. You are a big purveyor of this. and I want to understand it. How did everything change this way?

Well, it changed because. politicians, in general, with some exceptions, but not many, have no principles at all, and they. do what's popular, what they think. is popular, and they respond. just to one stimulus, which is election. That's it. And if they think. something will get them reelected, they'll say it, and if they don't, they won't. And so they're just, I mean, that's just what they are. I don't think it's even worth being. mad. I mean, they're like animals. whose behavior is really. predictable, or machines. You know, you can program to do a. certain thing, and you know it's going to. do that every time.

So the fact that like these guys are. standing up and be like, oh, you. know, Zelensky, who was my blood. brother last week is now a bad guy. Like, of course they're saying that. I've said the same thing I think. since day one, which is this is not. in our interest at all. And we've really hurt ourselves and. we've dislodged the dollar from. its preeminence. And that has consequences people are. not thinking through. And Russia of course has an. interest in what's happens in. Ukraine. And of course they don't. want. American missiles on their border. any more than we'd want Chinese. missiles in Tijuana like that's of.

course, of course, that's a real. thing And. moreover the thing that you want if. you're thinking big and you should. if you run America The thing you. fear most is the alignment of Russia. with China because then you unite. the world's largest country The. largest nuclear arsenal with the. world's largest economy and the. world's largest population and that. becomes a block That many. others gravitate to we're calling it. the bricks now and that becomes. you know, something that you can't. resist, that controls global trade. routes, that controls global. currency, and that reduces. you, the United States, to.

the bitch position very fast. Understand, but even within that the. premise is Russia bad. China potentially bad. What does bad even mean? I mean like Russia bad means. they are Consistently. invested in what's bad for America. Putin is a. Well, they certainly are now! They're alive with China! So yeah, that was not true. at the beginning of 2022. Constra -. and so. But invading Ukraine was.

wrong, what they did, and Ukraine did not start that war. The whole thing was wrong. No, Russia invaded Ukraine for. one specific reason, despite all. the lying from Ann Applebaum and. the Atlantic Council and the. professional liars and morons in. Washington who got us into the Iraq. war and Libya and Syria and every. other disaster. I've never. apologized or been penalized for it. The truth is that. Russia's concern was that Ukraine. remain not part of NATO. They want to control Ukraine to. some extent. It's their neighbor in. the same way that we want to.

control, I don't know, Canada or. Mexico. You don't have to. run the municipal elections in the. country but you don't want. like if you had a government in. Canada that was like bent on. destroying the United States you. would overthrow the premier of. Canada because you can't have that. it's your neighbor you're a great. power and that's how Russia. sees itself now you could say well. that's against international law or. whatever but that's the way nations. behave and great nations have an. expectation they're not going to. have an me on their border if they. can help it. But NATO isn't. inherently an enemy, it.

is to protect against. the illegal. and wrongful annexation. of sovereigns. Okay, Ukraine is not sovereign and. it Ukraine's government was. installed in a coup by the. CIA in 2014 So. it's not a sovereign nation. Well, there's a satellite Ukraine's. regime installed. Well, the Ukraine regime installed their. government. They're not sovereign. Ukraine is a sovereign, as you know, but Russia had put. a puppet in. There was a democratic. revolution there that.

Zelensky wound up winning that. election, second round of voting. That was to. remove the Russian. puppet who went back with a lot of. money into Russia. Yeah, whatever. I mean, you're. skipping over, that's actually not. at all what happened. Zelensky did not become president in. 2014, which was when my - No! No, but I'm saying that's my. Don Square was a reaction to a. Russian puppet regime in that. country. Well, that's what they were. against. That's what they were against. We called it a Russian puppet. regime. Where did the guy go back. to? Where did the guy Well, he fled.

to Russia on the verge of getting. killed. But the bottom line is Russia. wanted a friendly government in. Ukraine. The United States, which is nowhere. near Russia or Ukraine, went across the Atlantic Ocean to. install its president in Ukraine. in a coup. That's a fact. And they were caught on tape doing. it. Bob Kagan's wife was. caught doing that. You can listen to the tape. And so, okay, I guess. both are bad.

But if you're being an adult about. it, you understand that great powers. have an interest in not having other. people's nuclear weapons on their. borders. That's just a fact. And you could say, well, it. shouldn't be a fact, but it is a. fact. So we don't have nuclear weapons on. you on the border the only nuclear. weapon well the only. Really? So, NATO doesn't have nuke... Look... In Ukraine? No. Their concern and Ukraine used to. have a lot of nukes and they agreed. to get rid of them on the basis of. protection from Russia. Those were Soviet nukes.

right that was. by the United States, but right. All I'm saying is, if. you're thinking about it from the. perspective of what's good for the. United States, you do not want. Russia becoming in. close military alliance and economic. alliance with China. You don't want. that because that becomes a block. that you can't defeat, from which. you will soon be taking orders. And every administration has. understood this. The Biden. administration went. to the Munich Security Conference in. February of 2022. and had the Vice President of the.

United States, Kamala Harris, say at. a press conference, Tuzlenski, we. want you in NATO. NATO didn't want Ukraine. There never was a referendum in. Ukraine with the Ukrainians wanted. We want you to be an American. satellite with American weapons in. your country. She said that knowing. that was the red line. Putin's like, look, I just don't. want Ukraine and NATO. You've had all these countries. around my borders in NATO. I don't know why you're doing that. I still don't know to this day why. we're doing that. That's an. aggressive offensive move, but you. cannot have Ukraine. It's too big, it's too important. Our energy pipelines go through it.

No. And they insisted on doing this and. Putin gave a speech immediately. after to in Russia. No Americans ever watched it. You should it's really interesting. saying This NATO thing is too. much. We have to invade and we're. doing it. Those are the facts. Okay, so the question is why. would you do that? Ukraine is not sovereign It never. was you know that Ukraine cannot. beat Russia in a conventional war. Russia's got a hundred million more. people and much deeper But that. doesn't mean you let them roll over. That doesn't mean you let them roll over. Ukraine is. a sovereign, it's its own country.

In what sense are they making. independent decisions? I'll give you, in April of 2022, two months after this war started, it's very clear that Russia is going. to win. It's just a much bigger. country, period. And so the Ukrainians and the. Russians start having peace talks. And they move them around a bunch of. different places. They went up in Istanbul, Turkey. And they have a bunch of different. data points. The first is no NATO. The second is what do we do with. Crimea, which since 2014 had. been like Russian -aligned. They took it by the way.

They took it. They took it. What do you do with that? There's a Russian military naval. base there as you know and what do. you do with Donetsk and Lugansk in. the eastern part of Ukraine? They basically reached terms in. Istanbul two months into the war. All of a sudden the former. prime minister of Great Britain. Boris Johnson shows up in Kiev and. delivers a message from the Biden. administration. No, no peace. You are not allowed to negotiate a. peace. This is, he's telling a quote, sovereign country this. Some unemployed, you know,

indebted Brit is showing up on. behalf of the United States to. lecture the so -called president of. Ukraine about what he can do with. his own country. It's not sovereign in any sense. And they break off the. peace talks. This is all like, I'm. not making this up. They'll look it. up. And a million more Ukrainians died. The country's totally destroyed, forever. And then Zelensky goes and changes. the law in Ukraine to allow. foreigners to buy farmland in. Ukraine, to buy the soil of Ukraine. So you wind up with a country whose. population has just been killed that.

no longer owns its land. So big American companies, multinational companies, you want to. just buy Ukraine. That's the total destruction of a. European nation. And in the United States, we feel. like, oh no, we're fighting on. behalf of Churchill. No, we just. destroyed Ukraine. because we want to fight Russia. And now that is the core, the. desire of the American foreign. policy established to have a war. with Russia. That does not make any. sense to me. I'm not a Putin lover. or I don't speak Russian. I've got nothing to do with Russia. I just don't understand why it's in.

America's national interest to be at. war with Russia. It's not. And these are people with very deep. emotional hatred of Russia. I can't even speculate as to where. that comes from, but it's real. I've certainly seen it a lot. And it's not consistent with our. interests as a nation. It's not helped the United States at. all. It's hurt us. We spent over a hundred billion. dollars when we're bankrupt, and. all we've achieved is destroying. this nation that didn't really do, the poor Ukrainians didn't do. anything. It's horrible what we've done. Zelensky articulates a very. different case, right? He wanted - What's his case?

His case is he wanted America and. Europe to help them fight back. Russia because Russia wants to. reestablish the USSR. And he wants to keep Ukraine. sovereign. Of course he has cultural. and geographic issues. in the Eastern part of his country. And that has been an ongoing problem. for them. I was in Ukraine. when the Russian separatists shot. down. That Malaysian Airlines. plane lied about it wouldn't. let the bodies be reclaimed It was a. whole thing. Putin installed a guy. named Borowski who was supposedly a.

prime minister of Donetsk Was. all bullshit because that's what. Putin is. So they wanted help. They want to stay sovereign. America was helping with them with. them with that and now all of a. sudden Zelensky's a thief. They're stealing all our money. They're selling all our weapons. to Mexican cartels. None of these things are true Well. that is, that is true. Why? No, it is not true. Wait, just, I'll, I'll, I'll. just go, I'll, I'll just go, I'll. just go in order. But I don't understand what's the point of it. Give me. the point of it and then we can talk.

in particular. Ukraine, just to define sovereignty, sovereignty is the freedom. to make independent decisions. and Ukraine does not have that and. has never had that since 2014 when. its government was installed by an. American coup. Zelensky would say he was. democratically elected, and that. the people... Lansky would say he was democratically elected. Well, he's. not democratically elected. He's passed his term. And so by what authority, hold on, let me question. Go ahead, go ahead. By. what authority. thorn in the - Does. Zelensky negotiate on behalf of. this country, rule his country? He just put his. main political opponent under.

indictment and froze his. personal funds under internal. sanctions, the security services. of Ukraine. Sounds familiar, doesn't it? I don't know. We just went through. the same thing in this country. Sounds like dictatorship, by the. way. What I'm saying is, no, but he's not. a dictator. And that's - Then by what authority. does he rule Ukraine? So here's how. He was elected, and now under. their constitution, he does have. the ability to stall elections. and operate under martial law during. the conflict. So you're comfortable with people.

saying, I'm going to blip. No, he. could certainly have an election if. he wanted. If he wanted, but he is. empowered. But if he doesn't run an election, you're from a political family. It's. the same thing with Israel right. now. It's the same thing with - They're. not having elections either, because. they're in the midst of an active. conflict. It's not a time for. transition of power. It's not a time for transition of power. Okay, but I don't know why we. make excuses for dictatorship. It's not a dictatorship. Of course. it is. Any unelected leader. who has the power. He was elected. He was elected. He wasn't like actually he has a. presidential term, right? If Joe Biden just said, you know. what? We're in a conflict right now. I can't have elections. I'm canceling the election or Donald.

Trump. There's a constant. But there's a constitutional provision. for this. He could have an election whenever. he wanted. He could have an election. right now. No one doubts that. actually. And his opponent was calling for. that before he was just shut down by. the Ukrainian intel services a week. ago. So there's no authority. He doesn't have democratic authority. over his country. What he has is a. lot of NATO weapons. And to your second point, he. has absolutely as a. matter of fact, the Ukrainian. military has sold those.

weapons on the black market around. the world. and they have this, these. are facts. They've wound up in the hands of, among others, the Mexican drug. cartels, the Taliban, Hamas, Hamas. in Gaza, fact, and a lot of other groups. And it's incredibly destabilizing, by the way. The United States did. this years ago in. Afghanistan, as you know, and sent a. bunch of Stinger missiles to the. Mahajeddin in 1979 and 80 to fight. the Soviets. And those missiles. caused huge problems for all of. Southwest Asia for like 20 years.

And so this is a big deal. And I don't know why people feel. they have to lie about it. Now I don't I don't know that it's. about lying about it. I don't agree. that those are facts don't believe. that that the Ukrainian military. You know what? I'll bet you my car that. in the next two years... What kind of car is. it? What about some crappy? Oh, then I'm not gonna bet that. Okay. No, I don't have nice cars, I'll. admit that. Oh, I've never bought a new car that. I know of. I do, I do, so we're not doing a. swap. Okay, but anyway, the point. is... Have you ever bought a new car that I know? We're not doing a swap. Um, that's, and as I, no one believes me,

I know someone who bought some of. the weapons. I'm just, you know, whatever. Well, first of all, you would have. to substantiate. You know who it is that you knew. because you believe the most corrupt. country in Europe Which is so. corrupt that NATO didn't want it as. a member You believe it's. outside their own possibility that. facing defeat The leaders. of that military would not sell the. weapons that you're getting from the. West you can. You cannot substantiate a. claim on the basis of mere. suspicion that because they're not. mere suspicion. I know someone. who bought some of the weapons.

I believe that you think that what. I'm saying is that I know it I'm. saying that while you know that they. say it you don't know whether they. did and I'll tell you why I'm. suspicious because the. the missiles that. Russia put out those pictures of. were from like 2014, and they didn't even have javelins. So, the idea that Ukraine could. have been selling weapons that. were taken from a different time as. an obvious ploy by.

Russia to make them look bad is, to me, propaganda and not. proof that they did it. Are you texting while I'm having a. conversation with you? I'm having a conversation with you? I'm texting right now with someone. Very rude. No, no, I'm texting on. WhatsApp right now on. this exact subject. Very rude. No, no, I'm texting - I'm texting on -. Tucker, I'm not saying you're lying. I'm saying I'm disagreeing that it's. a fact that the military there. is spending weapons that they very. much need to Mexican cartels. Why does Mexico's cartels. need to get weapons from Ukraine.

when they get them across our border. with straw buyers all the time? I'm saying that it's a fa - I mean, to me it doesn't even make sense. from a practicality standpoint, but. it seems like. It seems like you can get surface. -tiered missiles from straw buyers. No, not surface -tiered missiles. Not surface -tiered missiles. No, small. arms. Small arms. Small arms. No, not surface -to -air missiles, not surface -to -air missiles, small. arms, small arms, small arms you can. buy anywhere, no, no, no, I'm. talking about weapons systems. But this is not documented stuff. and it seems to want to smear. Ukraine to make them the bad guy and. make Russia the good guy. SMILE. It's not a matter of shmearing Ukraine, okay, this is one of those topics. that I'm just going to... I'm not mad at you.

No, no, no, I'm mad because... It's a conversation. I know this is true, because. they're - I'm not saying you're. wrong, I'm saying I don't know it. It's a fact, it's a fact, and. unfortunately I can't, and maybe I shouldn't have brought. it up, because I can't name the. person who told me - I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm saying I don't know. it. I don't want you to expose a source, what I'm saying is, look. What I'm saying is look People, let. me, let me. People do bad things with money that. we give them. I have a huge amount. of knowledge on this one topic. I'm wholly ignorant of many topics. I know a lot about this topic. But people do bad things with money that we. And you think Zelensky's a bad guy. who's a dictator. What I'm telling you is the. Ukrainian military has sold huge.

amounts of American supplied. NATO supplied weapons systems around. the world, and that they're. purchasable now. by governments and armed groups. and are being purchased. Hasn't it been Docky? Um, I'm, I'm just telling you. that I, if, if this, this will be documented and. I got that directly once. again, from someone who purchased. quite a few of those weapons who I. know personally and.

in another country and. knows a lot about this. It runs a military and, um, and it's just frustrating because I. can't, I can't. But I'm not... Look, my point is not... But I'm not to frustrate you, Tucker. It's to understand this. mentality of framing Ukraine and. Zelensky as the bad guy. this mentality of framing Ukraine and Zelensky as the bad guy. It's. not, look, it's noting the facts. The guy's not elected. He is elected. His term has been expended. constitutionally. Would you be comfortable if we.

were, well, we are in a war with. Russia right now. is elected. His term has been expended. constitutionally. If Donald Trump, no it is a war with Russia, Americans have died, it's a proxy. war, it's a war that we're. funding, we're not on the ground. there, there are many Americans in. Ukraine fighting. U .S. military is not in the ground. Yes, there are. Look, I know that. there are - What are you talking. about? There are - No, they're not actively. fighting Russian forces. is not in the ground. about there are they're not they're not actively. fighting russian forces Riding W -. into Russia. Yes. What do you mean they're not. actively fighting? They're absolutely. actively fighting. Have we declared war? Of course not. We didn't declare war. in Vietnam or Korea.

That doesn't mean anything. True. Did in Iraq. I guess we did. That went well. There was a congressional vote. Well, have we - have we - That doesn't mean anything. True, true. Did in. a rock. um of course. But the point is, if Trump were to. say we're at war with Russia, I. can't have an election, I would. say that's not. legitimate. You do not have the. authority to extend and I don't. care, you know, what pretext. you make up for it. You can't put your opponents. in jail. You can't. But more than anything, what I'm. saying is that this is scary. It's not even blaming Zelensky.

There are many power centers within. Ukraine. There's the military, the. intel services, there's the. president's office, they're. competing. Political people say the same things. about us, by the way, of course. It's true. It's true, especially. true here. It's a huge country I'm. not even blaming Zelensky directly. I'm saying this is the largest. country in Europe We. have poured billions of dollars. in pretty high -tech weapons systems. into this country and we're not. keeping track of them We also have. bio labs throughout the country. We have bio labs. And we're about to have more of a.

footprint because the mineral deal. will put American companies. on the ground in those areas. that are right now war zones. I can't even assess that. All I'm saying. is we've funded the worst war. Europe has seen since World War. II for three years. That entails an awful lot of. weapons, including bio weapons. I'm not guessing this is a fact. Toria Nuland said it in a. conversation with the now Secretary. of State Marco Rubio in the Senate. on camera. So there are bio labs in Ukraine. with biological weapons in them. Who the hell is keeping track of. this stuff? That's all I'm saying.

It's not an attack on Zelensky. We have a moral obligation to keep. track of this stuff. There's never. been an audit. I have no problem. with that. IT'S FUCKING CRAZY! There's no problem with keeping. track of him. De -stabilization of the -. world. Like why are we doing this? So do you believe that we should. just back out of what we're doing. there now and let Russia take it? Russia take it? I don't. No, at this point Russia has, we're. not in charge, Russia just won, they beat us in their war in. case you haven't noticed, Russia out. produced in munitions NATO.

including the United States 4 to 1. You got to! So we just lost the war. So we are not negotiating from. position of strength. Sorry, I'm not taking Russia's side, I'm on America's side. This is terrible for us. We've exposed how weak we are. We couldn't beat Russia, which many members of the US Senate. assured me was quote, a gas station. with... That was McCain's line. What a fucking idiot that guy was. What an idiot he was. Lo, I knew him and I liked him, but. he was like an idiot. A gas station with nuclear weapons, really?

See, I saw it the other way, which. is we thought Russia was. going to roll over Ukraine and they. have been unable to really move. the line. We thought Russia would -. They rolled over us. They took a big chunk of Eastern. Ukraine and for three years we've. progressed toward bankruptcy trying. to stop it and we've not been able. to. They won. This is bad. It's bad for American prestige. It's bad for the projection of. American power. Everyone knows what we're capable of. and what we're not capable of. It's divided our country. All these dumb Ukraine, people are. flying foreign flags in front of. their house. See, I feel that the division.

is forced in. this country, that to. me it seems pretty basic that. Russia can't have Ukraine because. it doesn't stop - We can't, what are. we gonna do? It doesn't stop it. Ukraine. We already -. But at some point... Venice, Estonia, and Latvia. Estonia, you know, it's always some. chick, that blonde chick, I'm president of Estonia! You know, a country of five million. people that have entered the sauna. By the way, I'm part Finnish, I'm. not against Estonia, I'm sure it's.

great, but the idea that some. woman who's never been in the armed. service, like, setting military. policy for the EU? We're going to do this, we're going. to do that. You can't do anything. You don't have an army. Britain's army is smaller than the. US Marine Corps. NATO, which is a coalition that. includes, by the way, Turkey, it's. like this huge coalition, couldn't. beat Russia. That is the fact. I don't want that to be the fact. That is the fact. So Americans are like, well, we. can't allow this. You can't allow this! Well, what are. you going to do about it? I don't. say that it's a fact because we are. not fighting in earnest in that. country. So what? Okay, so what.

would you... I'm just, okay, here are the terms. We have a nuclear -armed power, largest nuclear arsenal in the world. that is fighting for its very life. that is aligned with China, okay, which is the largest economy in the. world. Well, I don't know that Russia's. fighting for its life. I think Putin forced this situation. Okay, whatever. Leaving aside moral culpability, I'm. just saying it's a big deal for. them. It's on their border. It's their border, okay? So we don't like it. We waited on the other side to fight. Russia. We haven't won. So now what are our options? Like actually, what are our options?

The options are what President. Trump is doing right now, which is. to try to get the parties to the. table. and draw a line in the sand and. make a deal. and make a deal. That's. the only option I see. I don't see any other options, but. I'd love to hear what they are. No, I mean, there's never. any other option unless you want to. actively fight and. take territory and occupy. Who's going to actively fight? No one. There are no Ukrainians left. Well, look, both sides. are manpower poor, right? You know the stories about. Russia emptying the prisons. Russia has a hundred. No one.

million. 140 million people, but have you. ever heard of us emptying out the. prisons? 140 million people, but they. I mean, why does he have to do that? He's in a desperate place. Because he doesn't want his citizens. to have to fight in an unpopular war. because he's worried about his. popularity because he wants to stay. in power. So it's easier to send. convicts to the front, they have. done this for centuries, I'm against. it. you think But I'm just saying. that's the fact. The point is, you think Putin is. concerned about his popularity in a. place where he kills all of his. opponents on a regular basis? It's on a regular basis. I'm very concerned about his. popularity. Really when he completely engineers.

the outcome of. everything that happens Russia is. a very complicated place with a lot. of different competing power centers. including the FSB which and how is. he. And how has he stayed in power so. long? because he's really good at. politics, and he pays very close. attention to what the public. thinks, very close. He's got the militia, just like any. country. It's a... First of all, the - You know. how lousy life is there for people, right? And not just because of the economic. sanctions right now. It just has been. I mean, you know, do you talk - Have you been there recently? Recently, no. I've been there too. recently. We're not allowed in. I've been there twice in the last.

year. Why are you allowed in? I don't know, I'm an American. A friend of Putin, that's a good. friend of Putin. Because I believe in seeing things. and reaching my own conclusions. Oh, me too. I'm just not allowed in. there as a journalist. I'm sure you could call right now. and they will let you in, and you. should go. They just wouldn't let me. out. Why end up like Paul Whale, and you wouldn't be arguing my case. and you would be arguing my case. But look, here's the point. No, no, Russia, Putin does not have. absolute control of his country and. they're all kinds of potential. rivals. He's been there for 20. years. Sound more sympathetic towards him.

than towards Zelensky. You just don't definitely more. sympathetic to Putin and Zelensky. for the following reason I judge. i'm not and i'm not sympathetic to. putin in the sense that I don't want. to move to russia I don't see russia. as like a close friend of mine. At all or a free country. or anything like that. I'm just saying I think. it's fair to judge leaders. On how they do for their country. They have one job do a good job for. your country make it better And. you think russia is doing well? A lot better than ukraine I mean,

a lot of Ukrainians have fled. Ukraine to Russia, a lot, a. lot. Well, yeah, they're under siege. right now. No, but I'm just saying. like, Russia actually. for a country at war is. thriving. You know, I think it's got deeper problems. War is not good for any economy over. time or any country over time, but. there's been such a massive infusion. of Chinese investment into Russia in. the past couple of years that people. in say Moscow, city of 12 million, you know, they don't feel a. privation that. But there's a reason he made that.

deal with North Korea to have their. people backing them up on the battle. line. I'm sure I'm sure that's exactly. right. I mean there are a lot of. theories on that I've heard a lot of. things but here's but here's the. only point that I'm making from an. American perspective Americans. fall into this trap which. is a childish trap Where. they superimpose like a. really clear moral dichotomy onto. foreign conflicts where there's like. a great guy. Yes Oh guy. Yes, and they're able to because. they don't know anything because. they never been anywhere and they. don't actually their leaders I'm. talking about don't kind of. take the time to understand that.

they don't understand The more you. know, the more you realize you. really don't know. Cause do you speak Russian? I don't think so. So like, how the. hell do you know what's going on? You don't know. The best you can do is like be open. -minded and let evidence guide your. conclusion. So from an American. perspective, what we've. learned is the U .S. capacity for projecting strength. through the military is a lot less. than we thought it was. We couldn't beat Russia. We didn't beat Russia. They won. Do you really think that America. was putting the full force of.

its might into that situation? Short of nuclear conflict, yes. Zelensky has done nothing but. complain about us not giving them. what they needed. We gave them like high Mars. Everything we're giving them. I mean, you know, because you've. been studying the situation. I've been there twice during the. conflict and it's. like World War One level warfare. there. So it's not like we're using. our most, now they're using drones. from like retail. I'm not giving them what they - So it's not like we're. using our most, now they're using drones from like retail. It's the most high -tech warfare. ever conducted. In fact, it's so high -tech, it's. moving so fast that.

I don't think most people even. understand what's going on there, but it's a war by drone. But it's a war by drone. Yeah, now there's been an infusion. of drone technology that they're. using, but they were digging trench. that they're using, but they were digging trenches. What Americans can't, you just need. to like change your mind a little. bit on this. We don't have the power to. do everything than we want around. the world. Agreed. We certainly. can't do it simultaneously. Agreed. And my concern. about entering into hot wars with. anybody is that you expose your. weakness. If you enter into a hot war with.

someone you have to win, otherwise. everyone knows how weak you are. And then. But you don't think. Do you think that's true for Russia. that they don't look really weak. because they couldn't roll over. Ukraine? They said it would be done in three. days. I mean, the truth is... It's a silly conversation. Russia's nuclear weapons, it is. hypersonic weapons. Russia could eliminate Ukraine in. about 10 seconds. It's bombing residential areas. It's going after infrastructure. where they know civilians are. So it's not like they're holding. out. So it's not like they're holding out. I mean, let's like, let's just be honest.

And I hope they never will and I. hate war and I hate the Ukrainian. So why haven't they? So why haven't they, by the way? Let's say, of course they could, their nuclear capability. Are you joking? They have hypersonic weapons. But. they're not, so why? Are you joking? They have hypersonic weapons. But they're not. So why? They got the entire city like that. But they're not. Because that's. World War III. That's why. Right. And they want to get out. without a nuclear exchange. Right. And what I worry, it's not a defense. of Russia, by the way, anybody who's. trying to avoid a nuclear exchange, I'm on your side. Yes. And that would include almost no. Republican members of the Senate. Okay? They're all like full blown.

They're old. They don't care. Like I said, they don't care about their. grandkids or humanity itself or. whatever. They're totally willing to. risk nuclear war. Or though Lindsey Graham just took a. step backwards, which I thought was. surprising. It's completely silly. He's blaming, look, a lot's. gonna come out. We reached an impasse on the. question of whether Ukraine is. selling weapons. They are, it's a fact, and I'd. bet my house on it. Okay, I know that to be true, but I. can't tell you how I know that. So I'm gonna have to just wait to be. vindicated. But it's not a debate. I'm just saying that it seems that. the line has shifted and now Ukraine.

is the bad guy. The line of -. Okay, we haven't. heard anything about Ukraine for. the past three years. You were required, and I got fired. over this, so I know, you were. required to pretend that Zelensky, who I think is a complicated person, for whom I feel sorry, actually. I feel like he's a pawn among. bigger powers, okay? I feel bad for Zelensky. But we were required to pretend that. he was Jesus and that. Vladimir Putin was Satan. And my only point is that's not. true, actually. It's way more complicated than that.

Both of them have good and bad. qualities. Thanks for watching! Moreover, it's not our it's not our. fight. Like what are we doing there? This whole thing is so nuts just. because you're mad at russia for. some reason that you'll never say. out loud um We. have to take our country to war. there. And by the way, can I just. say something sure why? I mean this war has. Like most wars that we fight. Been promoted by some of the richest. people in our country and i'll name. one ken griffin Who is a. hedge fund billionaire has really. pushed hard and i've seen it.

behind the scenes to force. Republican politicians to support. bigger payments to the Zelensky. government. And it's like, Ken Griffin's a multi. -billionaire. He's probably, I don't know, millions of dollars on lobbying on. this issue, but he hasn't spent. billions on Ukraine. He could send billions of his own. money to Ukraine. A lot of the Ukraine war supporters. could do it. They could also go fight. the war. They're conscripting 50 -year -old. men, guys with Down syndrome. The videos are all over the internet, and they're real. I hear from people in Ukraine on.

this subject. Those videos I've. seen. So, I haven't noticed any, Bill Kristol's not fighting in. Ukraine. Why is that? Why is Ken Griffin not sending. billions to Ukraine? No, what they're doing is. pressuring the US media, pressuring the US Congress to do. something that they themselves are. not willing to do, up to and. including sending American troops, which we have in Ukraine, risking. their lives. Why isn't Ken Griffin doing that? I just want to say I think. I think it's one of the most immoral. things I've ever seen. I think that you're headed in the. right direction now. Because I believe that.

that - You support the war, go pay. for it, go fight it. That complaint that the. wealthy and powerful are. feeding off the rest of us, I think. is the one untapped. reservoir of populist. sentiment in this country. We have a system right now - I don't. think we're allowed to say that. Well, we have a system where. the corporations - ... get to do whatever they want with. the money that they make, and they. get to work the system to pay as. little as possible into the rest of. us. They still pay more, and.

obviously the taxes are paid more by. the wealthy than by those who aren't. wealthy, but we find ways around it. And the government then subsidizes. those same corporations, even. though they don't take. care of their own workers. And I think that how the powerful. are able to leverage our government. is the main fight that we need. to have. So you'll have like, Let's say. Walmart is a great... and egregious example. They have more of their people on. snap as a percentage, they're. workers than any other corporation.

Yet, they're making a lot of money. And then what do we say? Well, they're allowed to give it to their. shareholders. That's capitalism. Oh, but we, Tucker Carlson. and Chris Quiml have to subsidize. your workers. I think that that's the main fight. Now, obviously it's not Ukraine, but. what I'm saying is rich people. imposing their will on the US. government to do what they want for. them. I I is a real thing. I couldn't agree more. However, I think and. I agree with what you said about. Walmart completely. Why should I. subsidize and not just. and not just Walmart, it's all of. them. I agree. Well, it's kinda -. But I don't actually think, I don't.

think that that's the greatest. threat to our democracy or our. freedoms or our country. I think the, because look, Walmart, the world's biggest retailer was. a powerful company, obviously. It's got a board of directors, it's. got shareholders. It's a publicly traded company, you can buy Walmart. There's some accountability inherent. in that structure. If you have someone like Ken. Griffin, not to beat up on poor Ken. Griffin, who I don't think Ken.

Griffin's evil, it's just silly, but I'll just name him again. Ken Griffin is like this. independent, multi -billionaire. who's got massive, and there are a. lot of these guys, who have massive. political influence because of the. money that he has. And there's no accountability at. all. What can you do to Ken Griffin? There's no board of directors of Ken. Griffin. He just is a billionaire. He is his own power center. And he's what we would call, if he. were Russian, an oligarch. We put sanctions on him because. that's the new word in the American. vernacular and I'm okay with it.

I think it applies. But that's the real threat because. like a guy like that I agree can. own his own media outlets. I agree own his own politicians. He can I mean, I don't know why. you're not talking about Musk in the. same way. All the tech bros, which I think is a really. benign and casual label. for these guys, he's doing everything that we're. supposed to be worried about. happening in this society right. now. And again, I'm not anti. -Elon Musk. I'm not. I think he's a genius.

And I just, I think. that there are things that are. happening right now. I can answer your question, and I. don't think it's an unfair question. at all, because. I do think the. world that produced Elon. is a world you need to think about. a little bit. I think there are. definitely some threats. Elon specifically will always. have my love. because he did the most important. thing, which is restore free speech. to the United States through X. And he took Because, you know, free speech doesn't mean anything if.

you can't actually speak to an. audience. Like I can, you know, lecture the mirror in my living. room, but it doesn't mean anything. I have to be able to talk to other. people in order to convince them. And there was no place to do that at. scale. All the social media apps were. controlled, completely controlled. And he has given. a real measure of free speech. back to the United States, to its citizens, which is really the. difference between slavery and. freedom is being able to say what. you think. There's kind of like A free man can. say what he believes is true and a.

slave can't. It's that simple. So if you want to remain free and. not enslaved, then you have to have free speech. and no one else seemed to agree with. that except this like South African. guy, this South African. rock. Ironic. It is. Maybe it's ironic. I don't know. I mean, I'm highly. opposed to immigration. But I have to say, including. my best friend, a lot of the best. people I know are immigrants. and they appreciate America for what. actually makes it great, which is. its core freedoms. What do you mean you're against. immigration? We have too much immigration and. we've made the country totally. unstable. There's a difference between.

too much and none. No, it's the difference between - Well, not. against immigration. You just said that. In theory. Okay. We need to shut down all. immigration right now until we can. retain or regain. equilibrium and like figure out what. it is that holds us all together as. a nation. It's too chaotic. It's too crazy right now. No more people. Cap it right now. And then just cooling off. Period. 30 or 40 years. Cooling off from what? This is all stuff that Trump... That's the stuff that Trump has. stalked. Okay, the big -. as the biggest problem we have. It is the biggest problem we have, and I'll tell you exactly why, because it creates chaos.

and disunity. If you have a continental -sized. country like we do, the main. question you have always every day, you're thinking about all day long, how do we hold together? How do 50 states not become 50. countries? I mean, that will naturally happen, right? Because each governor sees. himself as Caesar. So how do you keep them. cohesive? And the only way to do. that is short of force. You could just like get nukes and. tell everyone to obey. But short of that, short of becoming. a totalitarian country, it's.

by consent. It's because everybody. thinks we're in this together, we're. all Americans, we have this in. common. And it used to be race and religion, it no longer is. Okay, so what is it? Crickets. What is it? What is it that we all have in. common? And no one is even trying to. answer that question. And until you. can answer that question, you are. gonna move toward disunity. The drug cartels will take over. you know, Texas, Arizona, New. Mexico, and there'll be their own. thing. And, you know, England will. be its own thing. And, you know, God knows what'll. happen, but it'll break apart.

Cause that's just the nature of. people, of human society. So we need a period where. we can think through what it is. to be an American, what unites. us, what's our civic religion. It can't just be everyone's gay. That's not enough. Pride flag is not enough to hold a. country together. What is it? And immigration makes it impossible. because it's too much churn. Things change too fast. Like who are these people? It's how we f -. It's how we've populated the. country. Not at this scale. We've never had immigration like. this as a portion of the population. We've never had it.

This is, and by the way, it's. happening at exactly the time when. technology is certain to. like overturn our economy and. employment structure. Like AI is. gonna change everything. It's too much change at once. People's brains can't handle this. much change. And whoever opened. the spigot. and flooded our country with 15 or. 25 million illegals. in the past four years should be in. prison for the rest of his life. That's the worst thing that's ever. been done to this country. And I don't know if we can recover. from it. And I think it'll. become obvious as soon as there's.

an economic downturn. that like the fundamentals. have not been tended to at all. I'm really worried about it. Look, I understand that you're. worried about it and I understand. why you would be, right? but I just wanted to. It's being preached to you for. years. No, it's not preached to me. I notice it. I notice it. Well, but I'm saying, look, this. is... How many Americans want their kids. to serve in the military now? Very few. Right. So that's a huge change. That's been true for a long time, by. the way. Not a long time. Longer. than the last four years. For sure, oh, it precedes Biden for. sure, but not the last 20, not.

the last 20. I don't think you can. look at immigration. as an unprecedented bad in America. It is America, otherwise you don't. have one. Not at this scale. not at the scales, too many people. and there's no effort. But even if you wanted to look at. the people, even if you want to say. there are 15 million people who. aren't supposed to be here, they all. came in illegally. One, you see how easier. it is to say that than to do. something about it, right? Because he was going to come in and. round them all up and now... It's an unsolvable problem. Well, the question is, is. it a problem or is it.

a challenge and it is a mixed bag? You have 7 million open jobs in the. country that are necessary. What does that tell you? You don't have enough people to fill. them. Okay. Thanks for watching! Um, so that. means that the 15 million people. haven't taken everybody's jobs and. Saturated the market. Um, why are we giving government. benefits? benefits people here illegally. That's a legitimate political. question. No, no, it's not a political. question. It's like a, it's a social. question. It's like a core question. It's like, if you want them to fill. these jobs, why are you subsidizing. them not to work? Well, it's not that they're.

subsidizing not to work. Why are you subsidizing them at all? Because that was a political, that's. what I'm saying, it's a political. decision. They decided to do that. You could decide not to do that. Now, they don't get social security. benefits. Very often you'll hear. Where are there young people in? But you have a third of, and again, these are all rough. estimates because to your point. about tracking, we don't do this. well here either, you have. a third, let's say, maybe. close to a half of illegal. entrants working in this country. whose employers pay into Social. Security for them. No, I know all these numbers. They do not get any of the benefits.

of them. Right, so we should be. grateful to the Haitians. No, no, no. Not grateful. They do not get any of the benefits. Right. So we. should be grateful to the Haitians. But you've got to see it as a mixed. bag, it's not that you're a little. demon seed running. I see it as the. greatest failure this country's ever. presided over, which is the failure. to encourage its own citizens to buy. into the country sufficient to have. kids. You have to have an economy that. allows young people who aren't rich, whose parents aren't rich, to get. married and have kids. And we haven't done that. And the middle class is now the minority. of the country. It's super hard for people to get. married and have kids. And so rather than fix that.

problem because it would. make Larry Fink less rich, you have. to import people because, oh, we. need workers. Well, what about, I mean, we both. grew up in a world where people had. kids and they don't know. And whose fault is that? It's our leader's fault. That's like. a core fault. That's like a true sin. Well, it's always been both, right? I'm second generation in this. country. So you've always been doing. both. You've been having babies and. you've been bringing in people. because that's the American. opportunity. No, but what you haven't had is the. birth rate. That's the American option. just like ending for native -born. Americans. Ending.

And then you have the thing I. refuted earlier, which is the chaos. of change. Change produces chaos. Now, hopefully there's, again, an. equilibrium that is achieved over. time, but. You don't think Trump made a. boogeyman of illegal entrance. in this country by saying they're. the bad hombres, they're all. bringing the murders, and you know. that the crime rate among that. population isn't the same as the. native population? A single crime by. the illegal alien is unacceptable. Illegal immigration is unacceptable. The one is too many is. a very convenient. The one is too many, it's a very convenient standard though.

We don't use that anywhere else. You're not from here, you're not. American. What are you doing here? You broke the laws of my country to. get here, and you expect me to like. it, and me to kiss your ass, and me. to give you housing vouchers and. food stamps and free education for. your kids. What? I didn't sign up for that. I was born here. I actually like immigrants, that's. just trying to say. Elon Musk, my best friend and. business partner, a million. immigrants I love, but inviting people in illegally, immediately putting them on welfare. when they have no relevant skills to. a tech economy, which they don't, a.

lot of them can't read. We don't know the real names. How is that good for America? In no sense is it. It's the. destruction of America. And everyone knows that. And everyone's so paralyzed by race. guilt, they can't say it, but it's. not about race. It's about a basic question. that any country has to ask itself, which is what do I have in common. with my neighbors? Why are we all in this together? I got nothing in common with my. neighbors now. We don't speak the. same language. So how is this a country? Like these are not. questions that racists ask these. are questions that any normal.

logical person would ask like what. is this but that's why no one. wants to fight for the country. because they're attacking. people who are born here our wars. are fought by white men from. the south and the Midwest I mean. actually fought and that's. provable. That's just a fact. You have a line. of minorities in the military also. You could argue it's one of their. last avenues to equality. to one of their last avenues to equality. But every war that this. country has fought so far has been. disproportionately fought by those. two groups, and those are exactly. the groups that our leadership class.

hates. Hates, and it's constantly, diversity is designed to hurt those. people. But most of the leadership class are. those people. You're absolutely right about that. You're absolutely right about that. The war on whites is being waged by. whites. It's 100 % true. What is that about? I'm not Sigmund. Freud, I don't know. I'm just telling you that if, you know, our entire media. establishment, and not just our, like, the vibe, the. law, diversity is designed to. discriminate against those people. So why do they fight your wars?

That's just true. And then normal people, I. put myself in this class, they're. like, I don't even know what it is. that we're fighting for. more trans people or whatever. like what is this project about. these are all answerable questions. by the way all is not lost i'm. just saying you need to just. pause and think through the basics. i think the country is the best. country in the world totally. salvageable we can turn. this around i'm not talking about. the economy i mean the social. fabric which is much more important.

in the economy. but we need to do it now and. take it seriously and not just. listen to AEI and measure everything. in GDP. Those people are stupid. So you don't understand what it is. to be American anymore. Will you tell me? We've got 350 million people here. What unites them? The opportunity. What opportunity? Economic. opportunity? Opportunity to live a life of your. own making. To succeed or fail on your own. merit. see or fail on your own merits. Okay, so the meritocracy. To be judged by what you do, not. what you look like. That's right.

Okay, so every. institution in American life, almost. without any exception at all, has. abandoned that standard, and. now has something called DEI, or. diversity hiring, or affirmative action. Not. anymore. Not anymore. You just had an. administration strip it all out? the administration strip it all out? They all do, still in place. I mean, they're fighting it, but where were you when. every institution decided to. hire on the basis of sex and race, which is the opposite of the. standard you're describing. Why did they do that? That's a really interesting. question. I mean, from my.

perspective, it's. an attempt to destroy the West. Because that, I mean, what is the. West? You said it yourself. What is America? You said it's a. place where you can rise or fall. on your own merits. And that's the one thing that's. been destroyed. So I actually agree with you, but we. don't have that anymore. And in order -. It was destroyed. Was it destroyed. when women were given the. vote or when minorities were. given the vote? Of course not. Okay, because there. had been a system that was limiting. But women were given the vote in. 1919 and minorities were.

given. Women were given. Um, well, minorities had the vote in. a lot of places. Some they didn't, but the civil rights act was 1965. the civil rights Um, so it's been sixty. So the point is, look, I get that, I get what the frustration with. DEI was. I understand. No, no, it's not the frustration, it's that it gets to the fundamental. question of what is it? I asked you, what's an American? You said, you don't know what it is to. be an American. I said, I really. don't. I want to, and I think we. need to figure that out. And you said, I know what it is. It's anyone who comes here can rise. or fall on his own merits. And I said, where were you when.

that was destroyed? It's totally destroyed. We need to rebuild it. It's not about white men being bad, white rage. I don't believe it was destroyed. Thank you, Mark Milley. It's about the principle that. undergirds the whole country. It's what it is to be American, and. they took it away, and no one said. anything about it. And anyone who did it was called a. racist. No, listen, I. get the cancel culture concerns. and - It's not cancel culture, it's. like fundamental, dude. What, since we don't have that - No, I'm saying being called racist for. saying what you just said is a.

function of cancel culture and it's. unfair. Yeah, who cares about that? But what I'm saying is this. It's unfair. You didn't have minorities. being given the opportunities. because they were minorities. That was something that America. wanted to correct because it. is the opposite of equality. And it was the same with women. And that's what you. should be trying to do. Not to the exclusion of anyone. else, not to the exclusion of merit, but you don't want people held back. because of who or what they are. It's really simple. Either people, as you said, I'm just.

quoting you, my oracle, that what it is to be an American is. to participate in a system that. judges you on the basis of what you. do, that's who you are, where you. came from, what your parents did, and what they look like. Land of opportunity. land of opportunity. And I pressed, what does that mean? And you said what I just said. And so every institution in. American life to this day, the meaningful ones, the. universities, the large. corporations, the federal. government, to this. day has abandoned that. and moved aggressively in the other.

direction. There are federal set. -asides, the ladders. of success, the merit badges that. we require to enter. these institutions, mostly in. education. totally determined by race and. sex. And that's the opposite of what you. said. So then, and that's been going. on for 60 years. So, okay, so clearly it's not the. land of opportunity. What is it? No, I believe it is. It's a giant. pinata party where the most. aggressive person gets the biggest. pile. So Larry Fink is the richest guy. because he elbowed people in the. face the hardest.

I mean, that's kind of -. I mean, that's kind of what it is, actually. There is a little bit of. who and how the system. gets worked, but I. would disagree that it has been. destroyed. I would disagree that. because you still have whites. in dominant positions everywhere. that You can measure... It's about people. It's about human. beings. Are you going to judge the. person on the content of his. character, the color of his skin? but you weren't judging the money. content of their character and when. you know, it's hard to know if you. if you look on the content of their characters. and when you see... No, it's hard to know that. know that. If you look at corporate studies. of what diversity.

does to them, it increases. productivity, You're talking about the McKinsey. study from 2018, which has been, it's a joke, it's a joke. It's been utterly debunked and they. were selling their diversity. consultants. You talk about the. I'm not referring to that study, but. I remember what you're talking. about. There's no study that shows hiring people. on the base. of skin color makes a company more. effective. Not on the basis of skin colors. that you remove the. restriction. Not on the face of -. There are no restrictions under -. That you won't -. That you won't hire them as often. because of... I have a simple solution for this, it's called standardized testing. their skin color. and it was created in order.

to solve the problem that you. described, which is bias. And so standardized testing was a. good faith effort by the Wasps, by the way, who ran the. big American universities to. be fair. They're trying to be fair. It's like, okay, let's just pick. people on the basis of their. intelligence, their aptitudes, an. aptitude test. Right. And that kind of worked, actually. It elevated not just Wasps, but Jews and Catholics and black. people and everybody. was judged on the basis, and.

it was imperfect, of course, but. basically it worked. And it's why America dominated the. world, because it had the smartest. people in positions of power. And then at the apogee, the top, we abandoned it and we're like, oh, this isn't working. What do you mean it's not working? It's totally working. It's working, because then we get. the cream of all the other. countries. The smartest people from around the. world move here, including some of. my friends, the best. And then we abandoned it and we're. like, well, that's unfair. How is it unfair? It's the. definition of fairness. You're judging someone without even. knowing what he looks like or his. sex on the basis of his performance.

How is that unfair? They never explained, they just took. it away. And now it's gone. And now in federal contracting, if. you're a woman owned business, why do I have an interest in a woman. owned business? I don't care who. owns the business, I just want a good. business. You're ignoring the impact of the. Trump administration, which has. been what's been six weeks I know. but I'm saying they you strip it. out. You'll see what happens. I don't think diversity is our. problem and Standardized. testing I don't have a problem with. it. I never said diversity was a. problem. I think you did I'm stating. it as a proposition. What I'm saying is that the.

the testing I never said diversity. was a problem, I don't think that. assumes equal starting points. If you and I are both going to take. a standardized test right now. in an area that I am prepared. for and you're not, then. we're not going to do the same. Well, go ahead and prepare for it. then. I mean, I don't know what to. say. What's a better way to do it? The point, I'm not saying there's a. better way. I'm saying that I don't. have a problem with standardized. testing. I don't have a problem with. SATs and people. having to use them to get into. educational institutions. I don't have any problem with it. I'm saying that you also have to be.

open to the reality that. the kids aren't going to do the same. on the test when one has had a good. education and one has not had a good. and one has not had a good education. There's a lot of science behind that. and the truth is darker. and harder to deal with, okay, which. is that intelligence is. the product of environment to some. extent, but it's mostly genetic. And intelligence is a lot of. factors in success, but intelligence. is the single most important over. time in big populations. Smarter populations do better. They make more money, they go to. jail less often, they stay married.

Singapore is a more successful. society than the United States. for this reason. So that's the truth. If you have a meritocratic society, the smartest people will have most. of the money and most of the. success. And that doesn't seem fair. to people, is the truth, actually. And as we got better at sorting the. smart people and sending. them to Harvard and McKinsey and. onto private equity, it became more obvious. No, it's true though. It became obvious that the.

meritocracy was producing an. incredibly lopsided society. and that freaked people out and it. felt unfair to them. And two people in the early 1990s. wrote a book on it, Dick Hernstein. and Murray, and it was called The Bell Curve. And it had a chapter on race in. it, which was, you know, made a lot. of people mad. They could have taken that chapter. out and it would have been, I think, the transformative book ever, because it described what I just. said, which is the meritocracy. produces an outcome that. you may not be ready for.

Actually because it's rooted in. nature and you can't change it. and head start which was designed to. increase the IQ of poor kids Didn't. work and no one even wants to talk. about it anymore It's really hard. to change people's intelligence and. intelligence turns out to be the. main predictor of economic success. So these are super complicated. questions But I. know that a system that. rewards people on the basis of race. and punishes others on the basis of. race creates hatred and division. I don't think the point is, I don't.

think you have to do it that way, is. what I'm saying. And I under -. If I can't get into college, if two people apply to college and. they're different colors and the one. with the lower SAT score is admitted. because of his race, that's. penalizing the one. who's not in that. I understand, which is why it's. no longer the law of the country. I understand what you're saying. It's true in every college in the. United States, as you know, especially the selective ones, including the one you went to. But. they changed the law. They lie, and the Harvard case. showed that. You can say they did this with the. UC system in California, which. was once a great system when I grew. up in that state, and it's now a. joke, because of.

this. But they basically. found out that they were just like, we have too many Asians, we can't. have too many Asians. That's exactly. right. Yeah. What was interesting to me about the. cases that it wasn't white people it. was Asian people who were saying. that they were being discriminated. Right, so basically the way they. shut down the conversation is by. making everyone feel guilty about. slavery, which no living person had. anything to do with at all, and no. living person I've ever met. supports. I couldn't be more opposed to it. That's why I'm for free speech, because. I'm against slavery. But it's also, it's not a. coincidence that people. of color, specifically African.

-American, are at a. different socioeconomic level given. how they were introduced to the. country, right? Because race is completely. fabricated. There is no such thing as race. We made it up. Well, that's, I don't even know. what you're talking about. What do you mean there's no such. thing as race? You cut open a black guy. and a white guy, their genetics are. the same. You cut open a black. That's okay. We made race. I don't know what. We made race. We made it. We made it a thing. Just cause you look different. doesn't mean you're a different. species. So we created it. We made race! We created. him! No one's saying anyone's a. different species. I'm not saying. that you are, I'm saying that the... I think we're maybe getting into.

science still too deep. I'm saying the science is very. simple, she created race. I didn't know. I'm saying the science is very simple. She created race. Wait, hold on. I don't know what. you're talking about. So you're saying. that there are no. differences between the races? For example, the genetic. predisposition to certain diseases. is fake? There are cultural, there. are ethnic, there are ethnic. pockets, right? So Italians have certain. things that are more common because. of that group of animals breeding. with each other than you'll have. with Irish people or with Polish. people. Sure, sure.

And then as they all mix, it. changes. Oh, so you do acknowledge gen -. Of course genetics is real. Genetics is everything. What I'm saying is that race. Whoa! What I'm saying is race. Genetics is everything, but race is. fake. So genetics is everything, but race is fake. Race is a social construct. Okay, well, race is a social. construct in some ways, but. there's no doubt that there are. significant, I don't. Look, Irish and Italians are. different cultures, right? But they're the same people. They're just different cultures,

speak different ways, eat different. things. They're not the same people, they. don't look the same and they're not. genetically the same. That's not. true. They are genetically the same. Well, that's untrue. It's factually untrue. And you can see it in all kinds of. ways. What's the percentage of. redheads in Sicily? Pretty high. I doubt it. So what you're saying doesn't make. any sense at all. But that doesn't. mean it's genetics. It's just where people decide to be. No, hair color is determined by. genetics. It's not a cultural. concept. I know, but I'm saying that. having - So what you're saying doesn't make any sense at all. But that. doesn't mean it's genetic. Either his height or eye color or. IQ, I'm sorry. Having more redheads in.

Italy is not just about genetics. It's about where people populate, right? Like you could take a huge, like. look at Sicily, right? Look at the history of Sicily. When North Africa winds up. being there, right? And in power, you wind up having. that mixed into. the chemistry of everybody who's. Sicilian. Because genetics are real. That's exactly right. That's exactly right. What a race! We create. Exactly sure I understand the. distinctions that you're drawing. I'm just saying that different.

people, different groups of. people and different individuals. have different genetic make -ups, they're not wildly different, we're. all members of the same species. We are all created by God as a. Christian, I believe that. But we didn't have these problems. when people were Christian because. the underlying assumption. was that God created everyone, everyone has a soul. It's only when this became a. secular society that hates God that. you could treat people like animals. and objects. Well, slavery was during a time. where it was a. Slavery is nothing compared. to AI and transhumanism. SLAVERY IS NOTHING IS NOTHING.

Well, because slavery, you know, evil though it is, it still exists, by the way, around the world, but. it's evil and. Christians got rid of it. No other group did, Christians got. rid of that because they thought it. was evil because they thought God created. each person. But even under most certainly. in the West, certainly in the United. States, even under slavery here, evil as it was, slaves. were still considered human. They didn't possess the same rights, but AI and transhumanism,

transhumanists specifically, seeks. to redefine what a human being is. When you merge people with machines, then you don't acknowledge the. existence of a soul. If you believe that each person is a. distinct soul, that God cares about. each person, like a speck of sand on. the beach, each person is accounted. for and watched over by God and. cared for by God and has a destiny, how could you merge. that person with a computer? Because once you do that, then you. don't have to acknowledge the soul. Then you can treat that person like. the object that you've made him.

into. And of course, we don't even discuss. this, but ever. The point is, look, my only point is. this is a super complicated topic, as I think we're proving, and there are always unintended. consequences of any system that you. set up. But I know from just. watching the world and watching the. United States that the second you. make race a key. for appearance, whatever you wanna. call it. genetics, a key component. in awarding or.

punishing, then you. make everybody hate each other and. you wind up like Rwanda. You don't want to create. differences. You want to create. similarity. Well, there are differences, but you. want to find commonality. Yes, and I think that, look, that's. what the land of opportunity is all. about. But you treat people as individuals. Why do I give a shit if someone's a. woman or black? I care about that person, him. or her. Are you a good person? Do you do a good job? I care about you. I don't care about all your. ancestors, people look like you. This whole freight, this term. that used community, it's totally. fake. There's no black.

community or white community or gay. community, there are only people. No woman ever gave birth to a. community. That's not a thing. God doesn't care, he cares about. people, It's a social... No, but it's a way for politicians. to dehumanize people, actually. I hate it. Or fragment people. But to treat them as less than. human. You're not Chris Cuomo, you're part of the Italian. community. You're part of the Buff 50 -year. -old community. You're part of the. former talk show host community, or. whatever. That makes you less than who you. are. No, your name is Chris Cuomo.

You have a soul. God knew you before you were born. You have a destiny after you die. like, look, I'm going to. I get all. the metaphysical aspects of it, what. I'm saying is. when you discover. that women aren't given the. opportunities because they're women, or blacks aren't given opportunities. because they're black, in America, that's something that we see as. corrective. That you want to address that. You want to address that. Well, the correction has made the. problem worse. We saw leeches as. corrective too. We saw radium theory as corrective.

too. Like, just because you claim. it's medicine doesn't mean it's not. poison. And this has been poison. And this has poisoned our country. It's made everyone way more race. conscious. We're roughly the same. age. People were not half as race. conscious when we were kids as they. are now. They weren't half as angry. about race as they are now. And that's a byproduct of the system. that was supposed to make things. better. It made it much worse. End our poll. I mean, look, the Trump. administration, which I think is a. very interesting aspect about our. conversation. Think about it.

You and I have sat together, I don't. know how long, if it goes past like. that, but we haven't even. talked about anything in the news. Really. I mean, we're talking in the. frame. D -. I knew we were talking, I had a deeper qu -. No, no, no, and I love. it, but I'm saying that's the. beauty, that's the beauty, right? That's the beauty of the forum, of. the freedom, of what we're. able to do here, which you would. never be able to do just by time, let alone by subject inclination. No, no, no, and I love it, but I'm saying... We are very divided, and we. are divided in ways that. I haven't experienced. before. I agree.

And I think that a. big part of it is that it works. It's working for people who want. power and to keep power. Division sells these days. And maybe it always has, and that's. why we know what a demagogue is, but. there's no positive opposite term. that the Greeks gave us. It's the Trump administration, he came in fomenting. division. And I thought it was a very tricky. sell for him because if.

what I hear about him is true, which. is he wanted to win again because of. legacy mode and be remembered is. great. You can't be great as a divider. There's no American figure. in our history who was great because. they were a divider. Every American leader has been a. divider. Every leader is a divider. by definition. Us versus them, the enemy versus. the homeland. You know, the first presidents of. the United States drove the. loyalists to Nova Scotia. Some of them were my relatives, so I. know that. So you will divide.

The question is, on what basis? And the thing that I worry most. about in a country this diverse is. racial division because it doesn't. go away and those wounds just remain. forever, or certainly for. generations we've seen that with. Slavery, which I do think has left. scars. I would not deny that it's. clearly real so anybody. who foments racial division is. is committing a graver sin than. average and To. see trump get the support of. a multi -racial coalition, which he. did Is the most hopeful. thing ever and so if in.

the end it becomes trump against. the People who've wrecked our. country in the permanent. bureaucracies. I'm You know, I think that's pretty. good outcome. When you see what he's doing right. now, you don't see him as. trying to. break things in order to fix them. There's no question. There's no question. There's no. question. There's no question. And I think you make a fair point. And in general, I. am on the side of builders over. destroyers, because I think it's. much easier that you know, I hate. vandalism. And just on a gut level, I.

hate it, I believe in building and. improving. But I do think in this case, and I think it's tough, I think it's. a tough balance. You know, you can get into a frenzy. of destruction, we just break things. because they're there. I can't think of anything that. the administration is telling us is. good and works in our society. Well, let me put it this way. way. I've watched vandalism. in the last, really since Memorial Day 2020. when the George Floyd riots. began. I've watched vandalism on a scale I.

never thought I would ever see in. this country, not just physical. vandalism, but vandalism of. our cherished institutions, whether. it's the Episcopal Church that I. grew up in, the St. George's High. School I went to, which I love, totally destroyed by this. You got any juice with that school, by the way? They won't let me on. campus. They won't? Shoot, my daughter just applied. Oh, it's a beautiful school. I met my wife there and there's a. lot of bodies at my children's. there. Does she have any Jews there? I don't know, she's married to me. I'm not gonna, I won't use this. She did this funny! I won't use this, but I'm definitely. asking you about it after. Can I tell you one funny story? This. is like my favorite. I won't use this, but I'm definitely asking you.

about it after. So they, some, a guy. who I really like, who was a member. in our class there, called my wife, maybe my wife is. hilarious, about five or six years. ago, and he's like, you know, we're. raising money for this new tennis. center, and she was captain of the. tennis team. I played tennis, mostly smoked. cigarettes, but hacked around on the. court. And in the 80s, and like, we're. trying to raise this tennis, money. for tennis, and she's like, how. much, how much are you trying to. raise? He's like, it's $11 million, or something like that. My wife's. like. Um, you know, I, I. feel for you. I've been in this. position raising money for a school.

You have to call these people. I love the school. I met my husband, they were married. there and my dad was headmaster. You know, we love the school. Um, I'll just pay the whole thing. I'll just, you don't have to call anybody. else. We'll, we'll cover the whole, the whole, the whole amount. He's like, really? And she goes, I. just have one request that you name. it. The Tucker Carlson tennis. center. The guy's like, Let me check it out. It's like, oh, oh, you're not, you're not going to do. that. And he's like, um,

um, he's such a nice guy, super. uncomfortable. He knew that if you. went back to the school. and said, we paid for the whole. tennis center with one donation, uh, yeah, no, they turned it down. Not that we're going to give $11. million for a 10 or I don't even. have $11 million. But if I did, I wouldn't give it to. a tennis center and a boarding. school. But um, isn't that funny? So that's how they. feel about me. And you are able to laugh at it. because? Because I'm happy. I've had a really. happy life and we have a really. close family. You also don't respect the basis of.

their rejection. Of course not, and I know what my. sins are and I've committed a lot. of them and I'm ashamed. of myself in a lot of ways, but I'm. not ashamed of anything I've done. there at all. But I'm saying, like, who is -. So I think it's important, I think. you should be. I think you should. definitely be ashamed of what you've. done wrong, and I am. But I also think that you should. know what you did wrong and be. ashamed for the things that are. wrong and not ashamed for the things. that aren't wrong. You shouldn't just be ashamed. because of how people see you. Except I don't. I totally exactly.

I agree. And I also look, I also agree that. we're seeing things that. we haven't seen in ways, some of it is because we have reach, right? Because we have so much more. media now and ability for. things to be seen technologically. But we also do have. a growing. level of acceptance of. destructive and negative. ideas. Look, what bothered me, and my big boogie man is,

God forbid there was another. 9 -11, would we come. together? I want to say yes. I don't know. Certainly I know how President Trump. would handle it, and it would not be. the way President Bush did. You've imported a lot of foreign. conflicts into this country. I just want to say that. Meaning? Meaning that one of the. byproducts of immigration is people. bring their ancient resentments with. them, and that should not be. allowed, period. Like, you want to come to our. country for the opportunity, for the. freedom, great, but you. cannot, once you arrive, use the things that you're mad about.

in your home country to influence my. foreign policy. My family's been. here a long time. That's not. allowed. It's not your country, actually. We're welcoming you, But you. can't bring your ancient. hatreds with you, and a. lot of different groups have, and. it affects our foreign policy. I really resent it. It's my money, my children's. lives on the line, and my country. So, you know, a normal country. doesn't allow that. They had a protest of Bangladeshi. workers in the UAE earlier this. year, and they weren't mad.

at the government of UAE. They were mad at some issue back in. Bangladesh, and they marched down. the street, and the government of. UAE deported them that night. Not because we're mad at them, but. like we don't import foreign. conflicts in our country because. it's not, these are not our. problems. And yet, here's a counterfactual. What do we see happening in Europe. right now that isn't happening here? Them having huge numbers. of Muslims from different. ethnic extracts. in that part of the globe coming. into societies, not assimilating. I agree. That's certainly what the.

French are dealing with and what the. UK is dealing with to a little bit. of a lesser extent. In America, that hasn't. happened. Yes, we're farther away, but hasn't happened. We're farther Muslims come into this. country, it's the one of two. countries on the face of the planet. that have more Jews than Muslims, probably won't stay that way, but. when they come into this country, they assimilate. And we don't do what the French. allowed, which is to have them all. living together and. separate from the rest of the. society. America is about assimilation. That's historically been the case. That's historically been true. The only things,

having spent a lot of time in Europe, I would say, one, I think it's. unfair to blame, it's like everyone. blames the European populations, like, you're Algerians or killing. people with machetes on the street. because you're a racist. That's not fair, it's their country. They're the indigenous population, this was imposed on them by their. leaders, don't blame them. A, B, Europe is just way. smaller, it's way smaller. And so the United States is so big. that I've spent my whole life here. There are a lot of parts of the country. I don't know what's going on there. And I travel a lot in. this country and I go to places and.

I'm like, what is this? It bears no. resemblance to what I thought was. here. Totally different. Go to Portland, Maine. It doesn't look anything like the. Portland, Maine you remember. And there's no evidence people are. assimilating at all. You go to Lewiston, Maine, they. imported all these Somalis there 30. years ago. They've never assimilated. at all, at all, in any way. I'm just kind of taking over. downtown Lewiston. It's a slum, it's dangerous. And there's no assimilation. whatsoever. No English is spoken. And so, I think the lessons. of Europe, the United States I think.

did a really good job of. assimilating immigrants, your. grandparents, when the great. Southern European wave of. immigration came at the turn of the. last century, and they really like. self -consciously, like all public. schools like taught civics and like. this is what it's been American, learn English. Like did your parents even speak. Italian? But what did my. grandparents want? Be American. Exactly. No, but that's exactly. right. Speak the language. Be American. They were discouraged from speaking. Italian except in the house because. my grandparents didn't speak. English. Exactly. Exactly and that I think was the.

rule and you know, whatever the language was so. That's no longer true because we're. gonna make any effort to. make people American because we. can't define what American is and. We need to do that now and. just require that everyone who lives. here buys into the same some. species the same program I don't. think we should be North Korea about. it, but we need to have a unifying. Idea or else we will break apart. Do you believe directionally this. administration is. going the right way?

Well, I think they've identified. some things that are really wrong. and in the first six. weeks have made way. more progress than I ever would have. thought at fighting those things. So, but I mean, we have. some very, very serious problems. and are they equal to. that? If anyone is, they are. They've amazed me in the first. six weeks, but there's a lot coming. There could be an economic reset, probably likely will. and these are cyclical to some. extent.

And then there's also the technology. question. There's the AI question. And I just don't understand what. you're gonna do with 15 million. new unskilled workers. in a society that doesn't need. workers. And I'm really worried about that. I don't know who thought of that. Like on the cusp of the AI. revolution, let's open the borders. to Haiti. Like what, what are you doing? That's like the greatest crime. that's ever been committed against. this country. And I hope I'm wrong, I'm often wrong. So I hope I'm wrong. I really hope I'm wrong here.

That seems, like, suicidal. to me. I think it is, I think that the. biggest question, and look, I don't. have the answer, but the biggest. question is how. to unify, how to take your fingers. and make them into a fist. What worried me, look, what was, I got married. Festivals. two months after 9 -11. I got engaged at 11 days after 9. -11 because of 9 -11, because. I realized the preciousness of. life. And I thought that was gonna. happen all the time. I thought it was the new normal, that they were just gonna be blowing. shit up all the time.

I thought that too. And my wife made the, you know, the one bad decision. that she's made since I've known. her, which is she agreed to marry. me. And - Was it a tough sell? Oh yeah, if it hadn't been 9 -11, she would have never said yes. She'd probably - You leveraged a. terror attack to win it. Yeah, she could get out of it now on. the basis of impossibility of. contract because of duress. So when I saw, like. for me, like even like a January 6th. to me was, we don't all. come down on the side of what is. right and wrong. would have never said yes. She's a -. collectively anymore.

You know, that when. George Floyd happened, people. going down the streets in protest, they're going to be angry, they're going. to say angry things. It's not going to be peaceful in. terms of speech. Okay. Destroying buildings and. that's okay. Taking over cities and. that's okay. Not okay. We should have all felt that way. We always had until that point. Nope. Fair. January 6th. You don't do that. You don't go bust it into the. Capitol. Everybody should have been. on the same page. Instead, it was, well, what about.

George Floyd and the Black Lives. Matter stuff? That type of discontinuity. is very unsettling. to me. We all know what's right and. wrong on very gross. levels, okay? And when you ignore those things. for advantage, you start getting. into a dangerous situation. I don't know the we -. do. I mean, one of my core beliefs is. that shouldn't kill kids. Totally opposed to abortion. I think it's like the most obviously. evil thing we've ever done. And I, I know a lot.

of really nice people I like a lot. who totally disagree with me. And I don't know why they do, but they do. And that's like a core. I mean, abortion is not just like. some boutique I'm not an evangelical. by the way. but I just have always thought like, what, you can't do that. I don't care how we can be just a. baby. You can't fucking kill babies. But most people I know in my. affluent world totally disagree. So I think, and I just would say. that's like a core disagreement.

So I think there. are a lot of deep disagreements, like real disagreements that. have, you know, are pre -existing. and maybe haven't surfaced. Right, but here's the difference. in terms of what it is to be. America. What is our national. religion? Yeah, exactly. It is the law. It is. The law is our natural religion. Religion is a set of rules, right? You have faith, you have faith, I. have faith, I choose to have faith. I can't prove there's a basis. of my faith, but I choose it.

Religion is a set of rules. Our set of rules is the law. That's what unites you in this. country. That's why it's so. important. That's why politicians. love to fuck with it as much as they. do, because they know it's the. essential fabric, is that. you have fairness under. law. abortion, reproductive rights, however you want to term it. You can feel however you want to. feel about it. I can feel however I want to feel. about it. Then we have the law. Right now, the law is you decide.

state by state, okay? It is the first reversal of a right. in our lifetime, where a right had been recognized. and then removed. That was very politically. destabilizing, I thought, turned out not to be in the Action. turned out was in the midterms. No, but this is where there was. a right to drink, and then you. couldn't, and then you could. No, that's a privilege. we had a right to run for more than. two terms as president.

That, again, is not. a natural right. It was, it was in the constitution. natural right. It was, it was in the constitution. There. was no, you had a right to run for. president. But that is... It took it. away. But that, but that is... That is different. than... Because it doesn't have an. organized, screechy, unhappy lady in. it. No, no, no, no, how many terms you. have as president? It's guaranteed in the constitution. you can run for president. It's guaranteed in the constitution you can. run for president if you want. You can amend the Constitution. We make all kinds of changes. That's what I'm saying. We consider. some things rights and then we. decide they're not rights. I mean, there's no, there's no.

natural law that would. support abortion. Of course not. That's insane. You can't take. Well, the - no, the natural -. law would be control over your own. body. No, the natural law would be a. person has a right to be. alive. That supersedes your control. of your own body. But when is it a. person has rights attached to it? Well, you can, well, we'll just. start with when the child can live. outside the womb. There's no debate there. That is not the line that was drawn. even in Roe v. Wade. I'm just saying there are plenty of. states that have that as a more. a more generous assessment to people. who believe in reproductive rights.

than the law had been on the Roe v. Wade. Thousands of kids are aborted every. year post -viability, it's just a. fact. And they say, well, the child, you. know, there's lots of reasons for. it, but so, I mean. Late -term abortions are. almost not a. thing. They happen incredibly infrequently. Slavery is almost not a thing. No, but I'm saying that. statistically, the idea that we had. to focus on late -term abortion was. pure politics, not practicality. Slavery is almost not a thing. No, but I'm saying that statistically. I don't know was pure politics rape on subway platforms is. almost not a thing, but I'm. concerned about it I don't want it. because it's wrong and.

Any time a child who can live. outside the womb is murdered like. I'm upset about it And I don't care. how often it happens happens one. time if it even could happen I'm. opposed to it It's a baby. It wasn't part of the law. Okay, but I'm just saying it happens. But the viability standard the good. mockery takes guess the numbers you. can look it up. So But the viability standard... Anyway, I'm just saying like, okay, it's a right. No, these are political institutions. that respond to the public. will or what they think it is. But what about human rights? What about natural rights that are. bestowed by God that aren't supposed.

to be infringed on by men? Isn't one of those the control and. sanctity of your own body? I don't think that's... I mean, I'm not the law school. graduate here, but I'm not... They don't teach you about God. -given rights in law school because. that's... That's our founding. document is God -given rights. But it is... They don't teach you. that? That's not a secular. understanding. But it is, but that's a, that's not a secular. It says that in the docu -. The Constitution does not mention. God. The Declaration of Independence. does. Oh, sure, but that's not our. operative document. The Constitution. is. And our Constitution does. not mention God. Nothing is predicated on God except.

for separation of church and state. We don't identify... So how are the rights in the Bill of. Rights, how are the rights... We don't identify by - articulated. as a function of the collection, especially the Bill of. Rights, which you just referred to, because they sent it out to the. states, and the states came back. with a recommendation. No, no, no, I know the process, but like... We say they're God -given, but the. problem with that is you live in a. secular society, so what if somebody. doesn't believe in God? Do they not have rights? Of course. they do. Of course they do. They're attached by the collective.

Yeah, well, the yeah, the. First Amendment says that. the government can't have religious. tests. So, but I guess that you. could just whatever this rabbit. hole. But I think we can just. like stick with the Bill of Rights. and just we could start there and. say that, you. know, those are the rights that our. government exists to protect, right, wherever they emanate from. And the first one is a freedom of. speech. And when you see the entire. leadership class, the. country opposing. the first right enumerated in the. Bill of Rights, then you know the.

whole project is bullshit and the. people running it don't believe in. it and you set the stage for. revolution, which is really scary. Here's my problem with it. I am totally with you. about having to tolerate. the things that you don't like and. you don't wanna listen to in a. democracy, 100%. Marketplace of ideas, 100%. And I would even argue. that it is better to have more. ideas that are offensive because it. makes it easier for the better ideas. to rise to the top. I honestly believe that.

I'm very worried about any. kind of concerted effort to limit. speech, 100%. Here's what I'm struggling with. Our jurisprudence has moved in. the opposite direction. as our culture. Our culture has been getting a. little bit more finicky. with what it likes people talking. about, right? That's cancel culture, censorious. The law has been expanding, right? When you look back at Chaplinsky in. the 1920s, 1940s jurisprudence,

They used to say at the Supreme. Court level, you know, the first. amendment wasn't created for Tucker. Carlson to figure out how to say the. meanest shit he can to Chris Cuomo. and be protected from it. And then you had fighting words. doctrine, which is, hey, Tucker Carlson can't walk up to. Chris Cuomo and say something about. his mom and expect not to get a. punch in the nose. And then they expanded it even more. And then he said, well, you can't. say fire in a crowded theater. Yeah, you probably can under the. Supreme Court law. There's a new test of whether it's. reasonably Conceived.

to create violence. So they kept expanding the rights. So the First Amendment. jurisprudentially from the Supreme. Court has been getting broader and. broader. And I wonder if. it has come with a culture cost. And I don't like to look at Mike. Tyson as any kind of philosophical. basis, but he said. once, social media has made people forget. that sometimes what comes out of. your mouth is going to get you. punched in the face. That's right. And I do wonder. these days, maybe it's the angry. old man in me coming out, but.

do you think we've gone too far. in allowing things to be. okay to be said, not. as political thought, but as invective, as. insults, and how people. are allowed to treat each other now. And if I do anything about it, if you do anything about it, you're the one in trouble. I would say there I would just make. two slippery slope I know but I. struggle not slippery at all There. are two obvious points to make one. is that if you live in a society. where you're not allowed to.

criticize the people in Charge you. live in a tyranny I know, but I struggle. as in Ukraine. Agreed. Not about Ukraine, but I. agree with the principle. Well, they. murdered Gonzalo Lira for. criticizing the government, so yeah. And we have done that here, and I'm. opposed to it. So that's like a. super easy test. If you are not allowed to criticize. the people who have more power than. you do, you're not living in a free. country. I still think it's weird. that you look at Ukraine and not. Russia for the immediate example. I'm not funding Russia. And my tax dollars are funding. Ukraine. So that's kind of why I have a. special interest. Any country that. we fund, we have a right to look. carefully at where our money's.

going. No issue with that. any country. And the second point is, of course, I think the public discourse is. completely out of control. I think pornography is disgusting. And I think the cruelty. that I see all the time is. shocking to me and really sad and I. hate it. And there's clearly like some deep. rage going on inside people. I think I understand where it comes. from, but I'm totally opposed. to it. But what do you do about it? Well, all I can say for myself. is I try not to add to it.

I certainly have added to it, you. know, sometimes, and I'm sorry about. that. I really try not. to now. Probably should've started a little. earlier, but I. still do. But anyway, I don't. know what you do, but I don't know. what to do. Just try and model. reasonable, decent. Last thing I'll say, I think it's the most important. thing when you're talking to another. person to remember that it's a. person you're talking to. I saw something happen. People are gonna get angry at me. about this. But by the way, I think that.

as much as this is remarkable for. people, I don't care about why. people are interested in you and I. talking to each other. I know it's part of. the solution. And it doesn't matter. People can. listen to this and think everything. that we both just said is completely. a waste of the time that they. spent watching it. I'm okay with. that. I still know. that it's part of it. Because one, when we were working at. two different places, we would have. never been allowed to do this. And part of being in those places. would be adversarial with each.

other. And you were much better. at that than I was, by the way. But - I'm truly an asshole, deep. down. It's not that deep. But what I'm saying is, I know that we're not supposed. to be do this, and we're some of the. only ones who do. And I appreciate you and respect. you for that. I'm hanging out at a place that I'd. love to go to during the summertime. And there are MAGA hats all over the. place. A guy in the MAGA hat is. a little drunk, little out of it and. gets into it with somebody who does.

not have a MAGA hat on. And eventually the guy without. the MAGA hat on smacks. the MAGA hat off the guy's head. The guy gets angry, punches the. guy who smacked it off his head. Cops come, arrest. the MAGA hat guy, because he punched. the other guy in the face, and there. were all these other people there. And I was going to talk. about it on the show and. didn't, because I realized that what.

I was going to say was not embracing. of the law, but to me felt like. what would have been right in the. situation. And I have never really. figured this out. I could read a hundred, I could give. you a hundred different arguments of. what's right and what's wrong. How I feel is, when the guy smacked the. hat off the head of the other. guy, it. seemed to me that it was.

not more wrong than the guy. punching him, you know, it didn't seem like he had. high ground. You smacked the hat off the guy's. head. Before that it had been this, and there was plenty of ugliness. going back and forth. He then smacks the hat off, the guy. punches him, he didn't hit him with. a 2x4, but punched him. He opened him up, he was bleeding, and everyone. I would talk to about it would say, well, come on, Chris, I mean, you. can't do that. Because it's the law. Okay, why is it the law?

Because we want to enforce. civilization. But we're not that. civilized. I get it. We give ourselves too much credit. for civility, especially in America. Everything we embrace is. violent and aggressive. Why does everybody like The Rock? Because he's a great actor? No, it's that symbology. of what he represents as a male. And I know that it's wrong, but I feel like you. can't be punching everybody in the. face that you disagree with. I know, of course.

But it's now like we. empower people to be there. absolute worst all the. time and they gain advantage. of it. People say things, they're. not just criticizing you. They don't just criticize me. Oh, I know. They say horrible. things about people, their families, whatever it is. And I don't know how that's making. us any better. Is that just what we have to. tolerate to be in a democracy or. have we fucked it up?

It's pretty clear, of course I know. exactly what you're saying and I. agree with you, and I think that. none of that is an. excuse for the people in power to. shut down criticism of themselves, as has happened in Europe and. Australia, hope it doesn't happen. here. On the other hand, I. do think, you know, if you don't. think of other people as human, there's no limit to what you can do. to them. And I do think that's like. the key thing to remember is these. are people, they have identical. value in the eyes of God that you. do, and you. should always remember that no. matter how pissed you are at them,

and no, you can't kill them. No, no, no, of course, but I'm. saying that I don't know, man. I just feel like we're getting less. civilized, even though the law is. expanding. Can I say one last thing? Go ahead. Yeah, thank the internet for that. I am thrilled that. you're enjoying yourself outside. of the confines of the. business we are both in. And even if I disagree with you on. certain things, I just think it's. inspirational to see a free man. I appreciate you, I like coming down.

to see you, and I think that. the point is as simple as that, Tucker. We're not gonna agree on everything, okay? But that you do because there's not. one Sicilian man in America doesn't. love Trump There's not one and I. don't believe you're that man. There's and i've done a survey of. every sicilian man in america and. every sicilian man in america in his. heart. It's like. Well, finally, then I'm special. I don't believe you. Because I am. Sicilian, and I definitely don't. love Trump. I don't believe you. Because I am Sicilian, and I definitely. don't love Trump. You and your brother secretly love, I know that you do, and I know that. if - He can speak for himself. If I know if I can x -ray your. Sicilian soul, you'd be like, you.

go, big orange! Just me. BIG ORANGE! Big Orange! What I'm saying is this, I believe that, look, you're going to have people say, why. are you talking to that guy? I'm going to have people say, why. are you talking to that guy? And I love answering the question. because conversation. is the cure. You don't have to agree, but you've. got to listen. You don't have to -. and you have to feel each other out. and you gotta take it in. And I'm happy to do it with you and. I look forward to doing it again. Good to see you, man.