The Truth About the Biggest Act of Domestic Terrorism in American History

Ever notice that whenever there's a. history changing act of violence, it was. a lone wolf? It was a lone wolf. It was. a random crazy guy. We have no idea why. he did it. That would be uh the guy who. killed JFK and RFK and MLK and the. Butler shooting. I mean, it just goes on. and on and on. Almost all shootings in. real life are between people who know. each other or trying to steal something. from one another. But all the political. killings are just some random crazy.

person. It's weird, isn't it? What are. the chances? But when you question the. official story, the people in charge. don't even respond. They react like. people have got something to hide. They. just attack you. That's what liars do. Journalists doing their job, which is. seeking real answers, are a massive. threat to their power. So noticing is. the crime. And that's certainly the case. with the subject of our new series, the. OKC bomb files. This is the story of.

what actually happened to the extent we. know at the 1995 bombing in Oklahoma. City that killed 168 people. Now, you'll. recall that the feds told us the bomber. was a guy called Tim McVey, and he was a. veteran white supremacist lone wolf. But over the past 31 years, a lot of. evidence has accumulated to suggest, well, really to show that's a full-blown. lie. There were many more people. involved in that crime. We're talking to.

a person today who lost her two young. grandsons in that bombing, and she has. spent the last 30 years investigating. the attack herself. She's smart, she's. methodical, she's not crazy, and she has. a lot to say. She's here today to tell. us why she believes that the FBI's story. about Tim McVey acting alone is a lie. and who else may have been involved and. how the government knows more than it. has admitted. Here's Kathy Sanders. >> Kathy, thank you so much for doing this. >> Well, it's my pleasure. Thank you.

>> I think most Americans under, let's say, 40 have only a dim understanding, if any. knowledge at all, about what happened uh. in Oklahoma City. Can you can you tell the outline of the. story for us? >> I'll be happy to. People don't know about Oklahoma City. because it's not even in the history. books. Not even in Oklahoma. What.

happened to me was on April 19th, 1995, I woke up one morning and I went to the. bedroom next to mine because my. grandchildren lived in my home. My. daughter was a young divorced mother and. Chase and Colton lived in our home and. everything in our life evolved around. these little boys and I went in to wake. them up and they weren't in there and I. thought how strange. So, I walked down. the hall to the end of the hallway and.

sometime during the night, Tucker, those. two little boys, two and three years. old, had toddleled down the hall and. gotten in bed with their mother where. they spent the last night of their. lives. I turned on the light in the. bedroom like I did every morning at our. house. We always started with the song. It's like, "Good morning to you. Good. morning to you." We're all in our places. with sunshiny faces. What a nice way to. start a new Wednesday. And the little. boys begin to giggle and we get them.

ready for school for daycare. In our. home, it was a group effort. Ed's. working on the boys. I'm working on the. boys, brushing their teeth, and and uh. we get them all dressed and take them. into the kitchen where we feed them. breakfast. And. Edie and I load him in the car cuz she. and I not only lived together, we worked. together downtown and we took the boys. and dropped them off at the daycare. I. remember the little crumbs on.

Colton's face when we left him. We went. on to our office. uh to go to work. Edy had been sick on. Monday and Tuesday before the bombing on. Wednesday and she had kept the boys at. home with her. She was going to stay. home on Wednesday as well. But on. Tuesday night, she got a call from a. coworker that said, "Edy, you've got to. come to work tomorrow because we're. having the office birthday parties for. the people whose birthdays were in.

April." And it was Edy and another. girl's. And so Edie agreed she would. come in, but she might go home. afterwards if she still felt bad. So she. went into the office. I'm two floors above her and she's. walking across the floor to blow out the. candles on her birthday cake when the. bomb goes off. It's this huge explosion. unlike anything I'd ever heard before. I. knew something had happened and it was.

bad. So, she and I I ran the two floors. down to her office and I open the door. and everybody's looking out the windows. They're trying to figure out what. happened. Someone uh is on the phone and. they hang up the phone and they said, "They just blew up the bank." And I. said, "Edy, let's go see." So we run. down three flights of stairs and out the. front door of the. of our office which was three blocks.

from the Mura. and there wasn't a car one moving in the. street. It was like we had entered the. twilight zone. We look up the street the banks intact. Edy, there's big sheets of plate glass. falling down around us. I I had no idea what had happened. And. Edy turned to go back in the building. where it was safe. And I'm walking. behind her and then I look up the street.

and I see the smoke rising from the Mura. building. And I said, "Edy, the babies.". So we take off running and we get to the. south side of the street and she had. tennis shoes on cuz she was planning on. going home and the parking lot was a. long way from our building. I didn't I. couldn't keep up with her. I said, "Ady, wait, wait, wait up. We stopped at the. south side of the building. and we're surveying the damage. and the windows were all blown out of.

the windows and there were blinds just. dangling in the air like ruptured blood. vessels. It's there. It was just a mess. I'd never seen anything like it. And. then we hear. boom boom boom and we see this black. billowing smoke. And I didn't know what that was, but we. turned and we ran to the north side of. the building. And when we did, it was the cars in the. parking lot blowing up.

And. I turned back. to look behind me. and we saw the daycare. the the. Mura building was nothing left but just. a pancake pile of rubble. and my daughter falls to her knees and. she begins to cry. My babies, my babies. And Tucker, that was the first time in. my daughter's life she had a problem.

that her mother wasn't going to be able. to fix. We're were running through the rubble. trying to find the babies. and. a second bomb threat came and people. were running all away from the building. They were stampeding trying to get away. Another bomb. Another bomb. Well, we're. trying to get in. And uh a law enforcement official. grabbed us and said, "You can't go in.". He physically made us leave the area. We.

were told to go to the children's. hospital that that's where they were. going to take the children when they. were removed from the building. So. at the hospital, I lost all track of time, but my son was. an offduty police officer and he had. seen his mother and sister on TV and he. came down downtown. He said, "Mama, don't worry. I'm going to find the. boys.".

and he left. and he came back. and I knew when he walked through the. door something was wrong and I jumped up. and I said, "Danny, Danny, what is it? What is it, son?" Goes, "Mama, did. Colton have on little green shorts and a. white shirt?" And I said, "Yes, son.". Yeah, that's Colton. And I see the tears on his face and I. said, "Son, is the baby gone? Is the.

baby gone? And he puts his big old arms. around me and goes, "Yeah, mama. I'm. sorry. Colton's gone.". And he held me for a few minutes and. then he sat me in a chair. And he goes, "Mama, where's Edie?". Well, by this time, I couldn't stand. watching her grieve, the loss of the. children. I was grieving the loss of the. children. I was grieving for her. It was. just horrible. And I said, "Son, she's around the corner in the. chaplain's office.".

And in a few minutes, I heard a blood. curdling scream, and I knew my son had. found my daughter. >> And later that day, he found my oldest. son, a grandson, had also been to. tagged. Nothing like this had ever. happened in my life. I mean, this was so. foreign to me. I remember Tucker telling. a interviewer. uh when asked about this pro just in the. weeks after the bombing uh I told him.

you know it won't be very long when I. tell someone I lost my grandchildren in. the bombing they'll say which one and. haven't we come a long way. we've had so many bombings so many. school shootings the the whole world has. changed and I wouldn't believe the story. about the bombing. If it hadn't happened. to me, I would have been one of those. people. I I I live in La La Land. I like. to be happy. I would have never believed.

anything. like this could have happened. A few. weeks after. the bombing, we had a dinner at our. home. I reached out to the 19 families that. lost their kids. We're sitting in the. den. We're talking about our children. People were saying, >> "Well, my my little girl lost her arm.". And I remember one mother saying, "The. only thing I ever seen about my baby. again was his toes. I got to touch kiss.

his little toes." And another. grandmother, her baby was grandson was beheaded. And then one mother speaks up and she. said, "Well, when I dropped my son off. there, I saw the bomb squad downtown.". We didn't believe her. The next day, >> when she dropped her son off that. morning, of course, before the bombing, she saw a bomb squad. >> She saw the bomb squad downtown. there at the Mura building when she was.

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and use the code tucker for 15% off your. first order. Redmond.com/tucker. code. Tucker 15% off or click the link in the. video description or scan the QR code on. the screen. Any way you do it, enjoy it. So, just to be clear for people who. aren't familiar with the official. version of the story, the government. announced very quickly that of course. they knew nothing about this. And it was. an act of terror committed by two white. supremacists veterans,

um, Timothy McVey and Terry Nichols, and. that was it. >> Yes. >> Just two crazy people did this crime. That that was the version. >> That was the story that was given to us. Yes. >> And you know, that's the one I thought I should. believe. >> Of course, everyone did. >> But it's like, were they down there? And. it made my husband so mad. The next day, he went down to the fire station. The. chief said, "No, we didn't have our bomb. squad down.

there. We didn't There wasn't any prior. knowledge." because some other people. had said they'd seen the bomb squad. truck with the bomb disposal unit on the. back. And uh so we left not knowing what. to think. And then the next day we sent. an article in a paper where a woman gave. an interview and said the people in her. office had been watching the bomb squad. truck in the alleyway. and there were reports of bomb sniffing.

dogs through the bushes in the alleyway. I never directly talked to that person. But as my husband was leaving the the. fire station, the um. the fire dispatcher there. said, "Uh, I'm not going to lie for. anyone." He goes, "We got a memorandum. in this office last week to be on high. alert for terrorist activity." And after. that, we found out that the federal.

courthouse had also gotten that same. high alert. No one had ever mentioned. that to us. We didn't know it was a bad. day to go to the Mura building and drop. your kids off. >> But the dispatcher at the fire station. told your husband that. I'm not going to. I'm not going to cover this up. I'm not. going to lie. >> Yeah, that's what he said. He said, you. know, we got an alert to be on to be on. alert for terrorist activity in downtown.

Oklahoma City. and the federal. courthouse also got that same alert. >> I mean, that raises all kinds of. questions. Um, which I hope we get to in. this conversation and in the documentary. series, but I mean, if they had an alert. that this was coming, that raises the. question, how would they know if it was. just two random white supremacists who. did this and there was not a larger. conspiracy, then how how would the. government have had warning of this? So, >> well, I know how they had their warning.

As I begin to investigate, this was just. a first baby step. This story is so big. and it goes so. far. And stop me if I'm telling too. much, but I know how they found out. I. learned about. an ATF informant who was living at. Elohim City. I have her documents. of her reports she turned into her. handler.

She warned her handler that beginning in. December of 1994, the informant along with two other. individuals had taken trips to Oklahoma. City and Tulsa to target buildings they. planned to blow up. They took three trips. The handler was brand new to the job and. her reports almost were just written.

just exactly as the informant turned. them in. So someone somewhere had some. information there and Elohim City is a. big part of it, Tucker, because not only. was that informant warning. the ATF. uh of a possible bombing, Timothy McVey. called there two minutes. after calling the rider truck rental.

company. I believe it was two weeks before the. bombing. Now, he asked to speak to a fellow by the. name of Andre Strawmeer. And if I was an FBI agent, I would be. interested in knowing what's going on at. Elohim City and who this Strawmeer is. The FBI never talked to Strawmeer. They.

never interviewed him, but they. interviewed McVeyy's I I don't know, she. was his like his fourth grade school. teacher. They interviewed tens of. thousands people in connection with. McVey, but they didn't think it was. important to talk to Strawmeer. Also, >> who was Strawmeer? He was living at. Elohim City and he was taking these. trips to Oklahoma and to Tulsa.

planning a bombing. He was pl they were. planning on bombing something. >> and the FBI never interviewed him. Now. he was a German national. >> He was a German nationals. They a year. after the bombing after he was allowed. to leave and return to Germany, they. called and did a telephone interview. >> So I mean the only I I don't know this. of course I can't but the only logically. the only reason I can think of that they. wouldn't interview him would be that. they he was working for them.

>> Well that would seem logical to me. I. don't maybe it was a case of the left. hand didn't know what the right hand was. doing. I know that the ATF informant. Carol how was indeed an informant and I. know what uh Strawmeer at Elahume City. according to the people there that I. visited with was trying to incite them. to do bad things. Uh why and why did he leave the country.

and why wasn't he ever interviewed? I. mean McVey calls him 2 minutes after. calling the Ryder Truck Company. There. has to be some kind of connection, but. he just disappeared. >> Is he still alive? >> Yes. >> Has he ever been interviewed by the FBI. that you know of in person? >> Not not to my knowledge. No. And and there's more about Elohim City. if you want to hear it.

>> Well, let let's just go back to your. story. So, um. >> Okay. >> And I do want to hear it, but first I. want to understand how it dawned on you. in the middle of your grief, having just. lost your two grandsons, that there was. more going on here. So, you learn that a. bomb disposal squad has been seen at the. site of the bombing before the bombing. Your husband asks the fire chief. He. denies it, but the dispatcher basically. confirms it. >> That's right. >> Um, what happens next?

>> Well, next we've got the largest manhunt. in American history going on for John. Doe number two. >> Yeah. Who is John Doe number two? The. accomplice. >> He's Timothy McVeyy's accomplice. That. the FBI was looking for him. They first. they were looking for John Doe one and. John Doe 2. They found John Doe one from. the the VIN number off of the vehicle. So they. >> traced him back to Junction C.

>> The rider truck that exploded that had. the bomb in it, the ammonium nitrate. fuel oil bomb. >> exploded, of course, >> but the axle from the truck had the VIN. number. had the VIN number on it and. then the registration and the. information they got from the uh rider. truck company, they located Timothy. McVey, but according to the people where they. rented the truck, there were two men. And so there was a John Doe 2. And so.

there was this largest manhunt in. American history for John Doe 2, $2. million reward. And in just a couple of. weeks, the FBI said, "You know what? It. was all a mistake. There is no John Doe. number two. And that Elden at the Body. Shop. was mistaken. Well, you know, I maybe I could have. dropped it at that,

but we started investigating. early on when I thought something was. wrong. And I finally went down to I talked to. Stephen Jones McVeyy's defense attorney. and I said, "Look, if you want to point. the finger at the other people that were. involved, I'll help you.". And so I worked with his investigators, McBay's investigators. So I was privy to.

doc documents. That's how I found out. about Carol how the informant, >> the ATF informant. ATF informant. That's. why I had access to her documents. U. that's how I knew that there were way. over 20 people that had seen. Timothy McVey downtown that morning in. the presence of this John Do2. I had their 302 witness statements. I. went and talked to him. There was Rodney.

Johnson, the the catering guy, delivering delivery guy. He sees McVey. with a guy walking across the street. There's um. Jeff Davis, the the. delivery boy that delivered Chinese food. to McVeyy's room in Junction City. It wasn't McVey that he gave the food. to. And there was another man in the.

room. There were a Dana Bradley. She was on the first floor of the Mura. building. When the bomb with her mother, her sister, and her two children. when the bomb went off, it killed her. mother and her two children. She fell. down to the basement. You'll remember. she was pinned in the rubble and they. had to cut her leg off to get her out of. the rubble. She tells the FBI.

and I watch her testify at the courtroom. that she and her sister were people. watching. They were just standing there. in front of the windows of the Social. Security waiting for their number to be. called and they're just watching people. go by and they're kind of making fun of. someone. I don't remember what it was, but there were just people watching and. killing time. And they see the truck. drive up. They see McVey get out and. they see someone get out of the. passenger side and take off running. And.

at the trial, the FBI said, "Well, she. doesn't know what she's talking about. because she's been traumatized.". Imagine crawling into bed and you feel. like you're floating and then wake up. rested with no soreness from a stiff. mattress. Well, you could do that. All. you got to do is switch to Brooklyn. bedding. We can imagine what you're. thinking. A mattress like that must be. super expensive. It's probably made in. some far away land. But no, Brooklyn. Bedding, as the name suggests, is an. American company. It's got a 650,000.

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people. And what's really mystifying, if. you were prosecuting Timothy McVey, wouldn't you call a witness that could. place him at the crime scene? You would. The prosecution didn't because every. witness they had that saw McVey downtown. that morning at the crime scene saw him. with another guy. Mike Morose at. Johnny's Tires. McVey drives up there. Uh Mike comes out to his car to greet.

him. and McVey jumps out of the truck like. he's keeping Mike away from the truck. and he's asking for directions to the. corner of Fifth and Harvey. And then he jumps back in his truck and. he sits there a few more minutes. Mike. watches him as he and the other guy. drive off. Danny Wilkinson. at uh worked at the Regency Tower just. one block and across the street from the.

Mura building. The truck pulls up. McVey. comes inside according to Danny. Wilkinson. He buys two Cokes in a. package of Marboral Reds. McVey didn't smoke, so he obviously had someone with him. The the list just goes on and on, but. John Do was totally uh dismissed. He. never happened. And when we were talking about the bomb.

squad being downtown, uh, I have I had access to the payroll. records from the ATF. There were ATF agents brought in. the night before the bombing. They will. admit that they were working on a sting. operation, but they won't admit that it was at the. Mura building. My theory is. perhaps,

and this is just a theory based on the. evidence I've gathered, but perhaps they. knew the building was going to be blown. up. And the information they had was the. building would be blown up in the wee. hours of the night. When no one came to. blow up the building, they called the. bomb squad to give a clean sweep and. then they let everybody enter. I mean, I I don't know. I can't explain. a lot of things. I don't know. everything, but I think I know a lot. more than some people inside the.

government wish I knew. >> Well, that's obvious from the way they. responded to you. So, you got a visit. from the ATF to your home. Correct. >> We did after uh on May the 23rd, 1995, they imploded the Mura build the Mura. building. And there was a lot of. dissension about that. There were some. that didn't want it imploded and some. that said it needed to be. But by this. time, see that's been a month after the.

bombing and we're really hitting hard. and heavy now because we're thinking. things are not right. We're making. accusations and bringing things to light. about the John Doe 2 and this stuff. going on and we're really getting kind. of scared. So, we're thinking when we go. down there and we see that building, we're going to let reporters know that. we think there's a problem. So, I remember a CNN reporter came over to. my daughter and said, "Edie, what do you.

think about the the bomb or the uh. building being imploded?" And she goes, "I want to know where the hell was the. ATF? Why weren't they in that building?". And she just went off on them. And so. the next day, uh, Pat Ryan, the head of. ATF, a couple of ATF agents, and. including one, uh, Luke Fray, they came. because they wanted to calm us down, that everything was okay. And they told.

us the ATF wasn't there because they. were at a golf tournament that was. happening that morning. Luke Friny uh his hands bandaged up and. uh he tells us his harrowing story about. how he uh had to karate chop his way out. of the building because he was stranded. on the the ninth floor and that's how he. hurt his hand. Uh later I found. sheriff's video of Luke shaking hands.

with the sheriff. So, I don't know how. bad his hand was hurt. I don't know. It. just kept your mind wondering, but the. the thing that caused me the greatest. concern about Luke Fray was the AP. reporter had a picture of him on the. ninth floor. He's holding a little. silver lock box and he 168 dead people. behind him or underneath him. He he's. standing there with this silver lock box.

shaking it and there's 168 dead people. below him and all these hundreds of. walking wounded and I'm thinking man. whatever's in that box has got to be. really important. went to Franny. we ask what' you have in that box oh I'm. sorry I can't talk about I can't tell. you well then Hal Francis a former FBI. agent that was working on a story. that that is an acquaintance of mine. I.

told him about this. He took Luke Franny. out for lunch. and he asked about that lock box and. Luke Frray told him, "Oh, it was $150. worth of my kids savings bonds.". Why couldn't he tell me that? And would. you really be care 168 dead people below. you and all the walking wounded and. you're trying to save the lock box with. your children's savings bonds? That just.

didn't add up. See, I'm a simple person. 2 + 2 equals four. The facts of this. case do not. lead up to there was one bomber that. came into Oklahoma City and blew the. building up. Terry Nichols was in. Harrington, Kansas the morning of the. bombing. You know there Gary. >> Terry Nichols Nichols is the convicted. accomplice of Timothy McVey who was.

executed. Terry Nichols remains in. prison. >> That's right. And there was a third one, Michael Forier. But Forier. uh cut a plea deal with the government. and he was every bit as good as uh. guilty as Terry Nichols, but he only had. to spend 10 years in prison. And he was. caught lying under oath three different. occasions. And he got a plea deal for his wife. She.

never spent a night in prison. And she. testified at McVeyy's trial. how she sit. at the kitchen table and watched McVey. show show her with Campbell soup cans. how he was going to put the barrels in. the back of the truck to blow up the. building. So for spent 10 years in. prison and when he got out he is now in. the witness protection program. Who are they protecting him from? Thing things just don't add up. >> So 4A has never given an interview that.

you're aware of. >> No. No. Have you ever spoken to him? >> No. I took his wife out for dinner, though. I went to Kingman, Arizona, and. we went to the damn bar. And uh I said, you know, I'd like for you to tell me. about your part in the bombing. You. know, I know about you sitting with. McVey and doing the barrels. And and she. begins to cry and said, "I'm sorry. I. can't tell you. My lawyer told me I. can't talk about it.". And I said, 'Well, okay, if you can't.

tell me how the bombing affected you, let me tell you how it affected me. And. I pulled out pictures of Chase and. Colton. And uh and I told her how. different our lives were and the tragedy. that we've been through. And I said, you. know, I really wish you would help me. And uh at the end of the night though, she said, you know, I uh would you write. to Michael? He was in prison at that. time. I said, "Well, I don't what do you want me to.

say?" And she goes, "I don't know, but I. think you'll know." I said, "Okay, I'll. write to him." So, I wrote to Michael. Forier, told him I'd had dinner with his. wife. I found found her to be a a a very. nice person, a very broken person. And. he wrote back, "Uh, but I felt like he. was deceiving me. At least Lori told me. she couldn't talk. He said, "I'm glad. you saw her for the person she really. is." And uh I I've got his letter at.

home. It's been 30 years. I can't. remember what it was, but it was it was. like that he didn't have anything to do. with it or he didn't know about it. And. it's like that's so untrue based on the. evidence that's been recovered. >> And you have no idea where he is now? >> No, he's in the witness protection. program. He's probably got a new name. and everything. I suppose we're probably. supporting him, right? Oh, >> of course we are. >> Yep. >> Most people don't like thinking about.

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>> No. No. We had two of the agents that. were in the building. They told us that. when the bomb went off, they were in an. elevator and that they free fell from. the top of the ninth floor to the first. floor and they were they were uh trapped. in the elevator and they had to pry the. doors open. Well, it just so happened my. husband uh C was CPA and he worked for. that elevator company. We went and. interviewed the men at the elevator.

company. They said as soon as the bomb. went off, they were called to come down. there and to help get people out and to. check on the elevators. And they said. there was no elevator that had been. pried open. And he they said, "Kathy, if. the elevator had free fallen from the. ninth floor to the first floor, they. would have been dead.". >> Of course. >> So, I don't know. I I don't have answers. for this. All I know is that doesn't.

seem to make sense to me. >> So, if you were interviewing Michael. Forier's wife. and the elevator company that installed. the elevators at the Moro building in. Oklahoma City, I mean, you were doing. reporting on this. >> Oh, Tucker, you have no idea. I I've. spent the last 32 years I've I've had uh. I I've had a. I've had some of the bombers family come.

to my home. >> McVey, >> uh yeah, >> his family, >> his sister came I had her to my home for. dinner when I knew she was in Oklahoma. Uh she Most people don't realize that. she also cut a deal with the government. She she. testified against her brother. In her. confession, she says that she was laundering $100. bills for her brother.

that he told her came from bank. robberies. Well, there's a group of bank robbers. living at Elohim City, the place that the ATF informant warns. her handler. These people are planning a. bombing. They're living at Elohim City. and they're they're bank robbers and. she's laundering money that Tim says. came from bank robbers. Anyway, u and and when the FBI came to.

Jennifer's home the first time, she was. on her back patio with her charcoal. grill burning the letters from her. brother. But yeah, I've and Jennifer, I. had her at my home and and I asked her, you know, can you tell me about your. brother's politics? And she said, oh no, I'm sorry. He never discussed that with. me. Well, I knew that wasn't true. And. my daughter just lived two blocks from.

me by this time and she had a new baby. And I thought, well, I'll take Jennifer. over to meet the baby her brother didn't. kill. is what I thought in my heart. But. I I took her over to Edes. But I I. didn't get anything significant from. her. But I've been to Elohim City. I've. had guns pointed at me. Uh Edy and I did. when we drove up to Elohim City. They. the armed guards come came out with.

guns. I've been to the. >> Whose armed guards were they? >> Elohim cities. Hm. >> I had I I. told Edie after I learned what I did. I. said, "Edie, we need to go to Elohim. City. I want to know what's going on out. there." I had been told that if you go. there, you have to uh if you want to. talk to them, you have to attend their. church service. They had church service. every day at noon. So, we're driving up. It's just about.

time for church. I mean, it is in the. boonies. I've never seen anything like. it. >> Where is it? It's at the Moldro, Oklahoma, Arkansas border. And uh you. have to know, and I had learned from the. the defense team where it was. And you. have to know where you're going to get. there because it is in the middle of. nowhere. And then we're we're driving up. there and there's sign that says Elohim. City, which by the way is Hebrew for.

city of God. There's these big domed. buildings unlike anything I had ever. seen before. And uh I grab the uh camcorder, which at. that time was as big as a bazooka, and I. put it on my shoulder and I start. filming because I'm thinking, "No one's. ever going to believe I've been here.". And then Edie says, "Put the camera. down, Mom. Put the camera down." And I. throw the camera into the floor and. there are two men coming with guns to.

our car pointed right at us. I rolled. the window down and they said, "Can we. help you?" And I said, "Yeah, I'm here. for church.". So, our armed escorts took us into the. church. And when we got inside the. church building, which is another one of. the round domed buildings with stuff. oozing from the top, uh it was set up. like a horseshoe type. The parishioners. were around. the the perimeter of the building and.

the Iron Cross band was playing and. these guys had guns on their shoulders. and sidearms on their waist and a b the. Iron Cross band was playing and they. were singing some kind of glory and guns. to God. And then uh when they quit. playing, Reverend But no, Reverend Malar uh. looks at us and he says, "Well, I see we. have guests.". And he said, "Would you stand and.

introduce yourselves?". So we stood up and I said, "Well, this. is my daughter Edie. We lost her grand. uh her children in the Oklahoma City. bombing." and I said, "We're ATF's worst. nightmare.". And they stood up and gave us a standing. ovation. And so we were welcomed into the fold. Uh afterwards, they gave me a tour of. the compound. They showed me Andreas. Strawmeer's house, Dennis Mayhon, which.

is the man that also accompanied Carol. how and Andreas Strawmeer. It was the. three of them that made those three. trips. So, I found out where Carol was. staying. I really wanted to see where. Richard Wayne Snell was buried, but they. wouldn't show me that. >> Who was Richard Wayne Snell? >> Richard Wayne Snell was a part of the. Covenant, the Sword and Arm of the Lord. And 10 years earlier, the FBI had uh.

raided their compound on the same. day as the Oklahoma City bombing on. April 19th. And Snell got in a lot of trouble. He. killed an Arkansas pawn broker, shot an. Arkansas state trooper, and uh out some. of it was out of revenge uh for what had. happened at his compound on April 19th, 1985.

Uh, Snail then was executed in Arkansas. and Arkansas officials chose to. execute him on April 19th, 1995, the day. of the Oklahoma City bombing. >> But here's what gets peculiar. On the. day of his ex execution, according to. the prison death watch logs, Snell asked for the TV to be turned on.

in his cell, and he smiled and chuckled. as he watched the Oklahoma City bombing. His spiritual advisor was Robert Malar, the head of Oklahoma City. His spiritual adviser was Robert Malar, the head spiritual adviser of Elohim. City. And he was taken back and buried. at Elohim City. I mean, all the roads.

keep going back to Elohim City. Elohim. City. And. coincidentally at Snell's sedition. trial, it came out at trial that he had planned. to blow up the Mura building some 10. years earlier out of revenge for the. raid on the covenant, the sword and arm. of the Lord. I mean, the story just is. so big. It's so big. But all roads come.

back to the same direction. If you're. under 40, you might not know much about. what the FBI describes as the deadliest. act of domestic terror in our history. The bombing of the federal building in. Oklahoma City in 1995. We felt this move. >> All the official stories are simple and. they're all the same. Timothy McVey, acting alone, bombed a federal building. and in so doing killed 168 people, including almost 20 children. >> What an emotional experience. >> The government quickly declared the case. solved. But three decades later, many.

questions remained. Did Timothy McVey. really act alone? >> There is a strong likelihood that other. persons are involved. >> Why were so many obvious warnings. ignored? >> It's pure chaos. >> And who is he with? A man called John. Doe number two. >> Who was John Doe too? And where was he? >> We spoke with survivors, investigators, law enforcement, even Timothy McVeyy's. defense attorney. >> The story that he was telling me, I did. not feel was the truth. Watch the OKC. bomb files. It's streaming exclusively.

on tucker Carlson.com. >> What do you think Timothy McVeyy's role. in all of this was? Do you believe he. was the bomber? >> Yes, I I believe he was the bomber. I. think he was happy to be the bomber. I. think he was happy to have the credit. for it. He he was the one person that I. reached to a number out to a number of. times and he would never uh respond. One. time I knew a lawy journalist that was.

going in to see him and I sent a picture. of Chase and Colton on there uh to him. and I said, "I'd really like to talk. with you." And and he the reporter said. he just shook his head and said, "Well, I don't know what to think of this.". >> You think he was happy to take credit. for you don't believe he acted alone? >> No. there. There is no way he acted. alone. At Gary Lake, where they built. the bomb, the prosecution. and the defense agree that the bomb was.

built at Gary Lake. Well, there were several eyewitnesses at Gary. Lake. that watched men coming and going from. the truck. It the activity went on all. day. Sergeant Sergeant had just uh. retired, his first day of retirement, and he went to the lake to go fishing to. celebrate. He watched those men there. all day. You know, there were people.

with him. There were people in the. Dreamland Motel room, the Chinese. delivery uh delivery person, Jeff Davis. That's not who he left. He didn't leave. the uh Chinese food with Tim McVey. was. some other people. The maid, Hild Stra. Sustra, she took towels to the room. Uh, and the man that answered the door. wasn't McVey and she was complaining to.

Liam McGawan, the owner of the hotel. about that there were other men in that. room. David King, he was a guest at the. hotel. He saw the men coming and going from. McVeyy's room. Liam McGowan that rented in the truck. She would walk the perimeter and uh she. heard men talking in there. It's like. who were these men? Cuz. McVey drove the rider truck with the.

bomb in it from the front doors of the. dreamland to the front door of the Mura. building. Whoever was there with him. were important and the FBI never. bothered to find them. >> I wonder why. >> Well, I wonder why, too. >> I mean, the most obvious explanation is. that the people with McVey were FBI. informants and the FBI knew all of this. was happening and that they were.

monitoring it, but for whatever reason, didn't stop it and they're hiding that. fact. That's I mean I think that's the. conclusion most people would draw. >> Very logical. I've taken all the. information. uh that I have gathered over the last 32. years and I've written three books about. the bombing. I mean my life the the. bombing really changed my life. The first one was when I started asking. questions. The second one's when I.

learned to forgive which is the greatest. story. And this third one that I just. wrote, Shadows of Conspiracy, I call it a historical novel because. I've created the story based on the. facts that I have, but I've had to. include the dialogue that I believe the. men would have been having to create. this thing. And it is a page turner, barn burner kind of book. It's a a. really good read. If if you want to know. my story in that book is much closer to.

the truth than what the American people. >> if you could just summarize what you. think likely happened like what is the. truth of Oklahoma City after 32 years of. looking into it. Do you think. >> Well, I don't have the whole truth. I. have the uh you know I think they knew. Carol how had warned them. The. government knew. >> The government knew. I think they tried. to stop it. I think they were there the.

night before. And uh I think that's why they called. the bomb squad in. And you know, if they. were trying to stop it and just flubbed. it up, I could appreciate that. You know, say, you know, we worked hard. We tried to. stop it. We're really sorry, but we. tried. I it's been hanging like this. I. don't know what to think. There is to me. there's something not right. There's.

something sinister about it. >> Clearly. What kind of contact have you. had with the FBI since that day since. April of 95? >> Well, oh, I've talked to I've talked to. different ones. I've had uh. Danny Coulson. uh I write about him in my book. He was. the agent that was brought in after the. bombing and uh they brought in the team.

of the FBI's elite to. uh cover the story of the bombing or or. to investigate the bombing I should say. And I found out 10 years after the. bombing that Danny had retired. And I. thought, well, maybe he'll tell me now. that he's retired, he'll tell me about. what, you know, what really happened. I. called him on the phone and he lives in.

Dallas. He agreed to meet me. I took all. I have three ring binders. I had a trunk. full. I loaded my car with those three. ring binders. I went to Motel 6. I put. the all those binders out on that bed. and then a tap came at the door and I. knew it was Danny because we had a. specific time. I answer the door and at. that time he looks like Simon Cal. He's. got on a black tight t-shirt and blue.

jeans and had hair. He he doesn't. anymore, but uh he comes in and I said, "I just have some questions, you know, and I start pulling out binders." Why. didn't you talk to Carol? How you why. didn't anybody pay attention to the. information that she's given him and. he's looking at then I'm pulling out. Jennifer McVeyy's confession that she. was laundering the $100 bills for her.

brother. I said, "Look at this. The. Midwest Bank robbers. That's the name. the FBI gave them. They're living there. at Elohim City. Why didn't Why didn't. they do anything? And Andreas Strawmeer. McVey calls him two minutes after. calling the rider truck company. Why. didn't you Why wouldn't he ever. interviewed? And I could Danny's. countenance was changing. And he said,

"Man,". he goes, "that explains it.". I said, "Explains what?". And he said, "Kathy, after the bombing, the FBI brought in their finest to. investigate.". And he said, "I was called off and put. on leave with pay. I' I've been on leave with pay the last. 10 years. I don't know anything about. these things. He said, "You probably.

have more information in one place than. any other organization because I've have. information from everybody." And he. said, he was very, very nice. He said, "You need to get a federal grand jury is. the only way you're ever going to get. this solved." Well, before I could get. to Nicholls uh to tell him to do that, he doesn't trust anyone. >> Terry Nichols. >> Terry Nichols. Um, they came and I. approached him about a grand jury and he.

wouldn't agree to it. But Danny, uh, I'll never forget that day because at. the end of our meeting that day, he. said, uh, aren't you afraid? I said, I don't know who should I be. afraid of. And he said, well, the people. that you could get convicted and. possibly put to death. I said, no, I. don't have that much sense. I'm just. doing what I believe is the right thing. to do. Edmund Burke said, "Evil. flourishes when good men do nothing.

Something needs to be done.". >> Will something be done? >> I don't know. I've been trying for 32. years. >> Yeah. >> I I hope we come to the truth. >> You said that you forgave Timothy McVey. >> I did. How and why? >> Okay, I never set out planning or to forgive.

anybody really. I didn't. uh. but I had such grief. There wasn't anything I could do about. that grief, but there was something I could do about. the anger. And I watched my husband die. and I believe his his anger and his and. the bitterness and hatred that he.

harbored in his heart killed him. >> O. >> and I said, >> how old was he? >> 47. >> Oh gosh. >> And I remember pray he was he was mad. He was mad at God for not answering our. prayer because we came home the day of. the bombing and one of the uh parents of. a child that lived is by his side in the. hospital. And he says, "Well, look at. here. God answered our prayer. Our boy. lived." Which I would have said, too, if.

our boys would have lived, but I've. learned, don't do that. You can thank. God that your boy lived, but God's not a. cherry picker. He didn't go through that. day and think, I'll let this one and. this one and this one perish and I'm. going to save these others. I mean, because it made us feel really bad. So, Glenn was really mad at God. He was mad at Timothy McVey. I heard him. say a dozen times, the day they he dies, he's going to spit on his grave and. toast his death with a bottle of fine.

champagne. Well, Glenn wound up dying. before McVey, but he was really mad at. the government because he didn't believe. he had been given the truth. And. watching him die scared me. I said, "God, I don't know why this happened, but I. know if if I have a chance of making it, I'm going to have to depend on you." I. can remember. after the bombing, John Walsh of. America's Most Wanted, he spoke to a.

group of survivors and he looked at us. and he said, "You will grieve and you. will grieve deeply, but you will. survive." Up to that point, I didn't. know if I would survive. I'd even. thought about killing myself because I. didn't want to live in that kind of. pain. Yes. But I couldn't do that to my. husband and to my daughter. So I said, 'Lord, you're going to have. to help me. I I can't live like this. You're going to have to help me.

I've since learned that forgiveness. isn't an event. It's a process. I can. remember when I read my Bible. I read. the Lord's Prayer. Forgive us our. trespasses as we forgive those who. trespass against us. And when I got to that part, I said, 'Lord, I don't know how to do that. Said, 'Lord, you're going to have to. send your Holy Spirit to intercede for. me. I don't know how to do this.

And Tucker, when I begin to pray for. Timothy McVey and Terry Nichols, it. began to change my life. I don't know what it did for Terry or. Tim. I I went to. uh Terry Nichols trial right after my. husband died. >> And. in there was a break in the in the. hallway. There was a little lady there. with a brown coat on,

long brown coat. She was over there by. herself. Nobody was talking to her, but. I could see they were talking about her. And I thought, "Oh my god, that's Terry. Nichols mother.". >> And I go over and I begin to introduce. myself and she begins to cry. And I put my arms around her and I said, "I'm so sorry for your family.". And we became great friends. During the court, I sit with. my friend Joyce. I sit with Joyce. We.

ate lunch together. Uh, I know the other. families didn't understand why I was. sitting with the Nicholls family, but. uh, she did became. I I felt like she was a forgotten victim. and she did become my friend. When the. trial was over, the jury forwoman said, "We can't give. Terry Nichols death. because we don't know how he's guilty,

but we don't know how guilty." Who were. those other people with him at the. Dreamland Motel? Who was with them out. there building the bomb at Gary Lake? And so they got off, but uh Oklahoma had a backup plan. So. after his federal trial, he didn't get. the death penalty. They brought him to. Oklahoma. And Oklahoma planned to have a state. trial in hope to get him executed. Well, just a couple of days after I.

returned home, I went to my mailbox and. there's a letter from Terry Nichols. And I'm looking at that and I'm. thinking, I'm not looking for a pen pal. And if I. was, it wouldn't be the Oklahoma City. bomber. And then I thought, well, who's going to. know more about the bombing? That's. crazy. So, I began to write to Terry. and he said, 'If you'll send me your. phone number, I'll call you. So he began to call me.

I learned a lot from him. Uh he wasn't. he wasn't raised in a Christian home. He. said they only went to church for uh. weddings or for funerals. And he said we. went then for a free meal. And he just. kind of laughed about it. But uh he said. once he was arrested in his cell was a. Gideon Bible and he read it cover to. cover. And then someone gave him a AM. radio. And he listened to an old radio. preacher that told him if he'dite invite.

Jesus into his heart that Jesus would. cleanse him of his sins and forgive him. for all unrighteousness. And he said, Kathy, I did that. Now, I. know a lot about, you know, there are no atheist in the. foxholes and I know a lot about. jailhouse religion. I'm nobody's judge, but I I chose to believe him. Some. people would say, "Oh, Kathy, he doesn't. he doesn't deserve mercy.".

And I said, "Yeah, you're right. He. doesn't. If he deserved it, it wouldn't. be mercy.". >> Fair. >> So, uh, Terry's son hadn't seen him, Josh, in four years. He was 12 at the. time of the bombing. He's 16 at that. time. McVey had just been executed. and Josh was very. disturbed. His mother called and said, "You know, Josh is having a hard time or.

I'm going to bring him to Oklahoma to. see his dad." And I said, "Well, come. stay with me." And she said, "Well, I'm. not sure that Josh would be. comfortable." I said, "Well, that's. okay. Just come by and have dinner. If. he's not comfortable, I understand." So, when they came to the door that night, I. answered the door and what was a short. fat kid's now a tall good-looking kid. And I look up at him. I mean, what do. you say? Me being the wise woman that I am, I. said, "Well, I knew you were coming, so.

I baked a cake and we began to laugh. We. had dinner. Josh and I stayed up till. the wee hours of the night. He told me. how the kids at school had nicknamed him. Bomber and how he'd randomly get beat up. when he walked down the street and how. that he dropped out of school. >> And I had not told anybody. I didn't. tell my family. I didn't tell my. neighbors. I told no one because I. didn't want it to be a press release or. press event that I've got the bombers.

family at my home. And they wound up. staying for four days. And. the last day Josh asked me and I I. didn't take him anywhere. I just cooked for him, kept him at the. house. I And Terry's lawyer would come. over and see him and stuff. And they go. see Terry, but I didn't go out publicly. with him. And on the last day, Josh. said, "Kathy, would you take me to the.

memorial?". And it's like, "Oh." At that time, everyone knew who I was in Oklahoma. City. And I'm thinking, "Oh no, I hope. they don't recognize him." But how could. I tell him no after what he had been. through? But I can tell you, Tucker, when I took. him to the memorial, and I stood at chairs number 60 and 61. with my arm around the bomber's son, that God had done a work in my life.

And I've just uh it it amazes me the. transformation. You know, John Walsh was. right. I did survive. Here I am 32 years. later. I made the decision to forgive. and I think it changed the ending to my. story. That's a wonderful story. Thank you.