The Private Equity Veterinary Scam Making You Poorer and Killing Your Pets

Joe, thank you for doing this. I don't think I've  ever I probably have. I don't remember. I don't. think I've ever interviewed an advertiser. And  um so I just want to be clear about why I'm doing. this interview. So I called you several months ago  to ask you if you wanted to advertise on our show. because you have a pet related company. I love  dogs. I've got a dog right there. And um we had. this conversation that was like so unbelievably  interesting. so interesting that I haven't stopped. thinking about it. So that's I'm just want to  be fully transparent about why uh I asked you to.

come. Thank you for for doing it. So here's here's  my real question. Veterinary care, anyone who owns. a dog or cat knows a lot about it. There's no back  stop. There's no health insurance, whatever. And. you'll pay anything because it's your pet. It's  You're right. it's a member of your family and. it's getting really really expensive. So, can you  just give us the overview? Why is it so expensive.

to say bring your dog in for his shots? Like, how  does this system work? Yep. Just to put a pin on. that, veterinary care has grown 2x the rate of  inflation. So, we talk about inflation. Yeah. So, the inflation is already high. Yeah. Veterinary  inflation is double. It's like 2x. That's how. crazy it is. So something that was $50 is  literally $100 uh a year later. What? Why?

There's a number of factors. One, there's been a  lot of private equity consolidation in the space. I could have guessed that. Follow the money. So,  you know, that just means less supply and the. demand's only growing. That's one big factor. The  other factor is because it's a cash pay industry, there's really no insurance, right? veterinarians  and and you'll read this in trade magazines, they build their business on production, which  is basically selling you more stuff. Yes. So,

a third of their revenue is dependent on you  getting a blood exam, getting X-ray, etc. And. I think to be clear, like the rank and file  veterinarians are doing this only because they. love pets. I think what's happening is it's the  few business owners and ultimately, like I said, private equity that are simply raising prices for  something that you're going to pay for no matter.

what. Yes. And it's scaring people. We So, at  Dutch, my company, 50% of our customers say they. haven't been to a vet in 3 years or more. Oh, I  bet that's people are scared that the moment they. enter a vets's office, they have a $500 bill or  more, literally. So, can let's just back up and go. through these one by one. So, the first is private  equity. What? So, private equity buys the model.

in general buys small businesses, independent  businesses, links them together for efficiencies, for cost savings. Right? This is the idea. This is  what they tell you. Yes. So, how many do you have. any sense of how many vets are owned by private  equity now? I think it's like almost it's like a. third to a half probably. Wow. Okay. So, they've  been scooping them up. Oh, massively. In fact, this there's been there's like two major companies  that are doing it that there was a a lawsuit.

uh that they're creating a monopoly uh that pro  that's go that's that was going around. So they'll. go to owners of of brick and mortar mom and pops.  Yeah. Mom and pops. And they'll just they'll and. they're doing this with dentists as well and HBAC  and like basically every small business in America. and and they'll buy just a whole bunch of them.  Exactly. Yeah. And then become like regional. Yep. And then they'll just raise the prices. Does the  care get better? No. The care gets worse because.

you're no longer bringing the they're doing  nothing. I don't want to like say nothing, but. there's really no like modernization of equipment  or faster care. It's the same thing. They just. literally raise the price. Huh. Um, and when they  It sucks. It's like super unfair. I know. Well, I mean, I, you know, I'm willing to believe there  are examples of private equity doing what it says. it does, which is, you know, to come in and make  the business better. better for its customers,

better for its owners, better for its employees.  I've never seen that. No, it's ever in any sector, but I I believe there must be some time where that  happened. My old veterinarian, I switched to and I. asked for my um which is owned by private equity  and I asked for my medical records. It was 50. pages of PDF with scribble notes. I mean, there's  no way that there's any you could ever find what's.

there. So, I don't believe I've not seen any sort  of better care for pets as a result at all. Yeah. Um, but greater returns for the investors  and private for the Yep. totally. So, um, okay. So, how do they can you be specific about  how they raise the prices? You suggested there's. an incentive for veterinary offices to hike the  price of annual exams and shots. Annual exams, but they'll sell you more stuff, too. So,  they'll say, "You know what? Your dog needs.

teeth cleaning." And so, we need to put him  under anesthesia. And that's going to be like a. $5,000 bill for teeth cleaning, which $5,000?  Yes. I've had a lot of dogs. Dozens and dozens. of dogs. I've got five at my house right now. And  I don't think I've ever had a dog's teeth cleaned. Yeah. Exactly. And my dogs live a long time. 14.  Exactly. And the thing is, you're there and you. feel horrible because you only want to do what's  best for your pet, but what happens is they have.

a list of all the services they want to sell  to you and that's going to be one of them. Um, and you feel horrible that you even have to think  about the decision. Of course. But you're and but. it's like that's a lot of money and not I mean  most people don't have $5,000 lying around the. house. Putting your dog under anesthesia is not  a small thing. I mean dogs die. People die under. anesthesia. You're suspending life in a living  thing. Totally. Yeah. So, I think what happens.

is it's the list of services that they'll try to  sell you and make you feel horrible that you don't. care about your dog if you don't buy from this  menu. There's so much emotional leverage. People. are so intense about their animals. Yes. Not in my  house. We have, you know, critical distance. No, but you know, you'd do anything. You'd sell your  car. I mean, I would. And um so they they have a.

lot of power when they're upselling. Yes, totally.  Do you it seems like the incentives would produce. like actually bad outcomes where your dog or cat  is getting treatments they don't need and that. might be counterproductive. Well, I think what  happens is people just stop going to the vet at. all. that I mean that's what we've seen is that  there's just a whole there's tens of millions of. dogs that never go to the veterinarian at Dutch.  50% don't go to the vet. Haven't been to the vet.

in years and it's because they don't want to  they don't want to feel bad for not buying. extra services for their dog. That's amazing. What  about all the shot? There are a lot of shots and. they're very expensive. Definitely. There's  vaccines but even vaccines like you should I. mean as we have at Dutch try to kind of so tele  medicine can do vaccines but there's definitely.

lowerc cost clinics that will do vaccines for  $50 whereas in person it'll cost you $150 to. $200 for the same thing for a shot. Yes. How  why would it cost 200 bucks for a shot? Well, they'll say, well, I have to pay for rent and I  have to pay for stat. I mean, they'll say there's. like all this upkeep that that the shot, you know,  includes, but it's bologoney. It's obvious. That. goes back to private equity raising prices and  knowing the people there's some people who will.

still pay for it. So, the profile of the vets  that I've dealt with in the past 20 years have. really really changed. It's a female industry now.  Yes. Which I think is good. Just to be honest, I feel like there really a lot of dog lovers. Not  all you get hard cases among vets, but most vets. I know just really love animals. Yes, Christmas  is here. That means you're eating a lot. We are. It's a tough time to get on the scale because the  meals keep coming and so does the weight gain. But what if there was a way to eat like you want  to eat without getting really fat over Christmas.

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just click the link in the video description or  scan the QR code. And if you don't want to order. online, you can also buy masa chips at your local  Sprouts supermarket. Stop by and pick up a bag. They're awesome. And so what do they think of  all of this? So what's interesting is that when. it comes to just Dutch and tele medicine, we get  hundreds of applications from people who want to. who want to do tele medicine. And actually to this  point that it's female tele medicine allows them.

to have a work from home flexible schedule which  they love. Yeah. The main industry association. the AVMA has basically made these vets feel that  if they do tele medicine the FBI will show up at. their house. What it has scared them to death from  doing tele medicine to death. And it's because. it's again it's comprised of these self-serving  financially interested individuals who run the.

organization but um they have completely scared  veterinarians from doing tele medicine whatsoever. Why would the FBI show up at a vets's house? What  they'll say and and again like I think this is why. I want your listeners to know this. It's just  so insane. They will say that the federal law. requires requires you to have a physical exam no  matter what. Like no matter if it's an opinion,

it's a rash, it's a quick question. They'll um  say that the FDA website requires a physical exam, which it doesn't. But in every conference, in  every newsletter, they'll say, "Oh, well, we asked. the FDA and they said that you need a physical  exam, so if you violate this, you might go to. jail." That's what they'll say at every conference  for years now. And they'll vilify me and Dutch and.

they'll say, "This guy is going to hurt your dog.  If there's tele medicine, millions of dogs will. die is the headline. I'm trying to laugh. I mean,  that's it's like obviously not true. Emotional. blackmail. Yeah. So, one of the main buy this book  or we'll shoot this dog. I mean, it really Yeah. Millions of dogs would die. They really say that.  Yeah. Well, again, so this is what they'll say at.

a conference. What I've been doing now is I've  been working with the ASPCA and a huge coalition. of shelter u organizations because they're the  ones that get the brunt of it because now millions. of dogs actually also get surrendered because  their owners can't care for them because they. can't afford vet. Because they can't afford  veterary care. Yes. Come on. I'm telling you. People abandon their dogs. Yes. Oh man, it I know.  It gives me chills. It [ __ ] sucks. Yeah. Um,

so the only way this can change is at the state  level and we've been working so in Florida, it took us four legislative sessions to allow  tele medicine and and all it does is all the law. will say is that the veterinarian can use their  judgment to make a decision. But may I just ask. you a foundational question? Why is the state  involved in what kind of medical care you give.

your dog? Just because healthc care is regulated  at the state level. This is veterary care and that. I mean and veterary but you have dominion over  your dog. I mean, right? That's so weird that. they feel like some state legislator feels like  he has more power over your dog who sleeps in your. bed your dog than you do. Like what is that? that  that's the system we live in. But actually, I will. tell you this. Most legislators once we tell them  that this is a law that you need to help us with,

they're most of them are completely on board. They  don't they're like, "We have human healthcare and. this is like a lot of them will say, I didn't  even know this was an like you said, I didn't. even know this was an issue. This is dumb." So,  where it doesn't work is when the AVMA or a lot. of these state uh lobby groups who have hundreds  of millions of dollars in annual budgets, if.

they've lined a politician's pocket, then that's  where we will have trouble in those states. Taking. money from the veterinary lobby. Yeah, there are  a lot of dark lobbies. We only pay attention to a. couple of them, but there are so many. Yeah. So,  can you just quickly tell me how that works? So, the AVMA is the American Veterinary Medicine  Association. Yeah. Medical Association. Medical. Association. What And why do they have an interest  in preventing teleaalth for animals? There's one.

reason that they'll say and then there's one  reason that they'll say behind closed doors. So what they'll say in public is that they'll  say tele medicine is going to is going to harm. dogs lead to millions of dogs dying. But what  they'll say at the hearing behind closed doors, it's purely financial. They think that it's an  either or choice that if you have tele medicine,

people will no longer go to the vet and their  brickandmortar business is going to die. That's. not true. Oh, so they're just preserving the  monopoly. Yeah, they're preserve monopoly. It's just like always, most regulation exists  to preserve existing monopolies. Yes, exactly. That's true in tech. It's true in manufacturing.  It's true in the nicotine business. It's true in. veterinary care. Wow. I should have known that.  Duh. Right. Millions of dogs will die. Like,

who has died? No one. Well, so if people aren't  even bringing their dogs to the vet because it's. too expensive, how is that good? Exactly. Exactly.  get dogs are getting zero care. And you will have. these people say that they will prefer that than  they'll they'll prefer the status quo. The the. industry association will say they'll prefer the  status quo than allow tele medicine. And by the. way, it's not an eitheror choice. It's not like,  oh, I have a video call and now I no longer get.

vaccines at the vet. you know, like we have again  human health care, we still go to our brick and. mortar annual checkup, whatever. And then if we  have a issue at night, we we don't have to go. If. you got porcupine quills in your dog's throat or,  you know, cuts his leg on barb wire, you have to. go to to a surgeon. That's right. But if he has  a rash that and you just want to know like is it.

like what is this? Why do you have to go to urgent  care when you can just show again the dogs in the. comfort of their home and you use your phone and  show a video of their paw, right? Like why do you. have to drag that in? And that's right. And for  example, we get porcupine quills on our dogs all. the time, a lot. And I wish I could say my dogs  are smart enough not to try and eat porcupines, but they're not. And every year I have to take the  quills out, which is takes like four hours. But.

I do it myself because well, because I know how,  but also because my dogs don't like to go to the. vet at all. And it smells like death and they can  smell it. Yep. Mine do too. Dogs are euthanized. there. They know that. And um so we do everything  we can to prevent physical visits because it the. dogs are panicked. And I think most people with  dogs know this. Yes. And I think cats feel the. same way. Cats are even worse. Yes, because to  corral a cat difficult difficult difficult. So.

anything as someone if you love animals you want  to you want care for them of course but you want. to keep them out of the physical space if you  can. Yep. They're in the comfort of their home. Exactly. Um, one of the things we see a lot is  behavior and anxiety cases. And that's even more. so why they should be treated from home because  the dog is in their natural environment. Exactly. You're only making their situation worse by  forcing them to this place they don't like.

And then a lot of the behavior modification that  happens, tele medicine is perfect for that because. you can have these regular conversations and for  a fraction of the price. Just to give you context, by the way, so Dutch, it's it's a less than $100  for a year of care. If you went every month, you'd pay a hundred bucks a month. You'd  pay like over $1,000 to treat your dog. Uh,

and often times when you have anxiety, you kind  of need to have those regular check-ins. And we. had a story recently of of this guy who had an  aggressive dog. He's been on Dutch for 2 years. and the dog went from crazy aggressive to now he  has two buddies. Like his life has changed. Yes. And there's no way in the world this uh owner  could have had the money or the time if Dutch.

wasn't around to change this dog's life. Amazing.  Yeah. And if you have a dog who bites, I've had. a few. Uh it's very disruptive. And you know,  the dog can get killed, by the way. You know, dogs like that either get put down by the state  or can be killed in a fight, whatever. You don't. want that at all. It's a big It's a big problem.  Actually, we're talking about this morning at. breakfast. You don't need to be an economist to  see what's happening. The dollar is in trouble. It's getting weaker. It's sad, but we're not in  charge of it. So, we have to respond appropriately.

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tell me the how it works. What's the alternative?  So, with Dutch, you go to Dutch.com, you sign up, it's a membership service, it's $100 for a year of  care. So, for a year, you can call a vet for up to. five pets. And we have vets available same day.  So, you know, most of appointments, by the way, are happening at night when the even if you  have a vet, the vets's closed. Yeah. And so,

you have a video call. Most calls happen on  people's phones. You talk to a a local vet in. your state and they'll, you know, you're talking  to a professional and so they'll diag. You're. talking to a veterinarian. Yeah. You're talking  to a You'll always talk to a veterinarian, a human. being. And 90% of the time, and we've been doing  this now for 5 years, 90% of the time they're able. to address the issue uh over video. Amazing. And  so does that include vaccines or what does that.

include? It includes the cost. So vaccines you  have to do in person and we'll recommend a local. clinic if that's what you need. Uh but if you if  you need medication, we have pharmacy partners. who can ship that to you. You can also go to a  pharmacy of your choice. We don't care. Um but it. includes kind of any of the follow-up messages,  chats with a vet, so you don't feel like you're.

nickel and dimed if I have another question or  if I have to follow up a week later. Um the other. thing that's cool about digital first is that  everything is documented. So we know automatically. when we should follow up for each condition or we  know that a veterinarian needs to respond like we. have um goals a veterary needs to respond within a  matter of hours um back to the patient if there's.

a message during the business day. So we can also  like really monitor quality metrics to make sure. that customers are having a good experience.  Is this nationwide? It's nationwide, but there. are about 20 states that don't allow tele medicine  for animals. For animals. Yeah. What? Really? Yep. Because of lobbying by order. Exactly. So that's  why big states. Any of the big states. Um some.

of the biggest ones like Texas, which is crazy  because California allows it, but Texas does not. And uh we actually had a huge bill this year  that literally got killed um by the AVMA and. and it's all because of money. That's wild. Yep.  So it's you are not allowed to do So is there like. an underground tellaalth? Like why don't you just  ignore the law and do it anyway? Sorry. Kind of.

Well, so there's actually on in Texas there's a a  court case that is now at the Supreme Court where. the veterinarian said, "Well, I'm it's freedom of  speech." Yeah. I'm just like telling people like. how their pets, you know, um this is my freedom  of speech. So, the fifth circuit, which is Texas, Louisiana, Missouri, has ruled in his favor, but  the attorney general is has filed this um as an.

appeal at the Supreme Court currently. Seriously?  Yeah. What's his name? Greg. Forget his name. That's so interesting. He's running for Senate.  So, right now it is illegal for anyone in Texas. to call a vet on the phone and just get healthcare  on the phone. Yep. According to them, now there's.

always So, there's two paths in Texas. There's any  state allows e has an emergency provision if it's. a life or death situation. And then in Texas  again the there's this fifth circuit decision. that's currently so there's like there's sort of  this competing situation in Texas where on the. one hand the fifth circuit says tele medicine is  allowed but the state regulations still say that. it's not allowed. I'm pretty sure I could just  call up and get like very serious drugs prescribed.

through teleaalth as an adult like very ser fully  addictive benzoazipines for example you can die. from going off them I mean this is like way more  way more addictive than heroin you can't die going. off heroin you can die going off Xanax so it's  all about the money but that's totally fine to get. that from teleaalth yes or empetamines no problem  it's like tijana you know you get whatever you. want now. But your dog can't get treatment. Yeah,  that's not it's it's definitely unfair. Well,

it's deranged. Um, is that changing? Are you  making progress? We're making good progress. So, we've changed the laws in Florida, Arizona,  Ohio, in a number of states, and um this. upcoming legislative session, we're lobbying in 12  different states. But definitely, there's a lot of. states. I'm sure your listeners live in a lot of  those states. And uh one of the things we did is.

we launched this website called savepuppies.com.  [Laughter] And if you go to safeepies.com, I love your marketing. Save I mean, if they're  saying millions of dogs will die, you should, you know, you're fighting back with safeepies.com.  That wasn't taken. I know, right? Yeah, it wasn't. taken. And so, you know, you can go there and uh  send a letter to your local legislator. That's. the only way that things will change is at the  grassroots level because we don't have the crazy.

budget that these trade groups have. Can I ask  you what does the AVMA think of private equity. scooping up all the independent businesses?  They're associate I think they're associated. with it. They've got no problem with that. I  don't think so. prices going up, care declining. that they're totally fine with that. They're  against options. What? So, I think again there's.

two things what they'll say publicly versus what  happens behind closed doors. And I've read art. I mean it's like we live in two different worlds  because what they'll say is like for example one. reason prices are going up is there's also massive  vet shortages because the veterary profession has. one of the biggest dropout rates Oh yeah of anyone  and they'll say and this is just it's this is just.

factually like true if you follow u BLS Bureau  of Labor statistics, but they'll say there's no. shortage or you'll say no prices are going up and  there's like data that shows that they'll say no. prices are not going up. So, a lot of times when  you talk to them, the surveys they put out make. are completely nonsensical, right? And there's  this bottleneck in veterinary school. Totally. So,

that's another thing. the AVMA could it's really  weird in this industry and I think I just again. I'm here because like you shine a light on things  and I think a lot of people well I care about this. topic because I think the relationship between  people and animals is just so essential. I know. it sucks what they're doing. So they the AVMA  controls accreditation for veterary colleges.

Okay. Like this happens in no other like law  schools don't have a trade association decide. like who gets to have a law school. Yeah. In this  industry the AVMA controls what is deemed a vet. school and they have chokehold that completely.  So private equity decides whether you get to be a. vet or not. I mean, in effect, if private equity  is the single biggest player in this industry,

that's bonkers. Why? I mean, it goes back to  money. It goes back to when you have less supply, you can charge more and because people are willing  to pay more for it. So, they have an incentive to. reduce the number of new veterinarians coming  out of school every year. It's like I hate to. draw that line, but I think that's what Well,  if it's about money, then it's supply and demand. because that's that's what the market is. And so  the fewer vets you have, the higher the prices.

Yeah. It it like makes I've you know, again,  I'm I think I'm a curious person and I try to. like understand like could it be something else?  Is there another reason? Like why would this if. you have high attrition, you have prices going  up, you would think that the way to solve that. is to have more veterinarians, of course. And  that's just not what they're doing. They've like. literally I at this point know several vet schools  that have just stopped development, you know,

gave up because the AVMA basically told them that  they're not going to get a license. I'm not sure. I'm not sure because there are very relatively  few colleges that turn out veterinarians. Oh, there's totally few. Like just think I can tell  you this statistic. There's about one veterinarian. for every 3,000 pets in America. For context, the  ratio in human healthcare is 1 to 20. No way. the.

disparity is so huge and the amount of vet schools  is so little. Like we could we could have a you. know dozens of vet schools pop up and it would  still maybe not be enough in the next decade. And. like I said, this trade organization is refusing  to launch any new schools. Well, I mean that's. a cartel that's cartel behavior. It's very much  cartel behavior. And what's crazy is I feel like.

then this gaslighting happens where I'm painted as  the bad guy and they'll say this guy Joe or Dutch, you know, he's just self-interested. He just want,  you know, he's the one that wants your money. And. I'm like, how is that possible when I'm like  reducing the cost? Like it doesn't make sense. Well, it wasn't that long ago that many Americans  thought they were inherently safe from the kinds. of disasters you hear about all the time in third  world countries. a total power loss, for example,

or people freezing to death in their own homes.  That could never happen here. Obviously, it's. America. People are recalculating, unfortunately,  cuz they have no choice. The last few years have. taught us that. Remember when the power grid  in Texas failed in the dead of winter? Yeah, it happened and it could happen again. So,  the government is not actually as reliable. as you'd hope they would be. And the truth is,  the future is unforeseeable. And things do seem.

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grid doctor for power you can trust this winter.  Lastount supply.com. Why did you get into this? Couple reasons. So, prior to Dutch, I was one  of the co-founders of hims and hers. And so, I helped start that tele medicine journey. Um,  and I would say if we back it up even more, we'd have to go back to my experience coming to  America and just always as an immigrant and having.

to figure things out when we my family and I  immigrated from the Soviet Union. Where? Um, to the Bay Area. No, but where in the Soviet  Union? from Usbekistsan. From Usbekiststan, former uh current separate country of the Soviet.  Yeah. But then a Soviet republic. Yep. We What was. Usbekistsan like? You know, it's um it's very it's  Muslim majority, but it I would say secular and um.

everyone got along I thought quite well. Um, and  we're Jewish. And I actually didn't even know Jews. and Muslims are supposed to not get along when I  we went to each other's weddings. There's lots of. shared history and similarity. Um, that's been  true. By the way, I just say factually that has. been true in various parts of the world over time.  You know, not always of course huge problems,

but then other places there are no problems. Mhm.  And that was one of them. Yeah. So it was, you. know, we we, you know, I mean, I I I had a good  childhood. We left everything uh behind because. my dad was uh almost thrown into a labor camp  for having an illegal book, which is just like. a regular I'm sure it's probably maybe a book on  your shelf. What book? It's called Exodus by Leon. Urus. No way. Yeah. And it's just a book in the  ' 70s. Yeah. Fighting for freedom. I think it's a.

concept they didn't want you to know about. Yeah.  And we fled. We fled with I had a hundred bucks. uh and a red suitcase and we left. Lived in Italy  in a refugee camp for several months. Eventually. got political asylum to come to the United States  and then, you know, lived in low-income housing.

for a long time in the Bay Area. in the Bay Area.  What was that like? A couple things. First, my dad. definitely told us that we have to assimilate,  that we have to learn the language. He himself, he was a civil engineer. And I saw him at first  working flea markets just doing manual labor. And. I think it showed me that he would do anything  for his family to have a meal on the table. And.

I think later in life it showed me, you know, no  one's too good to take out the garbage. That's. right. That is exactly right. And uh and just  the value of a dollar. I still I think Yeah. I. want to make sure my kids have that. But I still  think and I think back to this business. I think. that's why when I see things that are so expensive  for people, I feel it in my bones because I still. know what it's like to not have any money to make  difficult decisions um when you only have so many.

dollars every month. What did your dad wind  up doing? He ended up going back to being an. engineer. Wow. He um got trained um education and  then he found a mentor who took him under his wing. um and he became an engineer again. Amazing.  Yep. They really Yeah. So, in so many ways, they they inspired me. And with that said, there's  not much that they knew about America. And so, I I.

knew that they would love me, but a lot of times I  had to figure everything out for myself. I went to. college. I paid for college myself. And I think  all of these things taught me to be a survivor. Taught me to make something out of nothing. Um,  and kind of that's that's led me that led me to.

hymns and and ultimately that led me to Dutch.  Were were you an animal person? We had animals. So in the Soviet Union, tons of animals. Um, so  I always definitely grew up with animals. Uh, German Shepherd, great dogs. Had a black cat. Um,  so we had animals up until I was 10 and then we. lived in apartment in tiny tiny apartments and so  then we got finally when I had a family and we had.

a house we got so that's when we got my a corgi  and that's kind of how it all happened because I. was coming off hymns. It was starting to be a big  company. I always like smaller companies and when. I can actually still create something. Yes. And  then we got a corgi and started to see the vet. bills and then the kicker was he got into a trail  mix and then we had a $2,000 vet bill. Trail mix?

Yeah. Like trail mix had like couple M&M's in it.  Oh yeah. And they're supposed to eat chocolate. Not supposed to eat M&M's. Yeah. They like them  though. Yeah. I like them. It does. Right. And did. he get sick? No. But the thing is, and that's the  thing is then I was talking to a vetinarian friend. and he said like he really didn't have to do he  didn't have to like pump his stomach for like the.

three M&M's that he ate. And I So then that's kind  of how I started to look around like are there any. like could I have done something else? Did Did you  pump his stomach? Yes. So, can I just pause and. say I love how even if they're misguided, I love  how devoted dog owners are to their dogs and cats. I mean, they just like they'll do anything. Yeah.  I'll do anything. Yeah. Yeah. I'll do anything. and but it and and so I think that's when I  realized there's really no like other option when.

it comes to there's no tele medicine options that  I saw and it and it goes back to that a lot of. times it has to do with the laws but look I'm the  guy who I figured when him started it was actually. a similar situation back five years ago tele  medicine wasn't legal on the human side either. like we forget that cuz it's now so common place,  but it was also the same thing. And I and I helped. change those laws back then. I think that's kind  of why some of these groups are scared of me is.

because this guy comes from a place where like  he has nothing to lose. He's only doing I mean. also I think it's because I'm doing the right  thing. I think they don't like that. And I've. done it before. So I think that kind of gives me  more confidence that I can do it again. Uh and. I don't think that's because before this so be  before Dutch came on the scene what the shelter.

groups for example that wanted tele medicine what  they were doing is talking to the state veterary. boards because that's how the that's a simpler way  that this could all change. If the veterary board. at the state they could just say if you want to do  tele medicine do tele medicine if it's medically. appropriate. Yeah it could be as simple as that.  And so for over 10 years they were having these. conversations and so that's when I got here and  I'm like this is doing nothing so we got to go.

the legislative route. It's so revealing however  I mean again I think there probably good people. with good motives up and down the line. There  always are in these systems, but the system. itself is so distorted that they don't put the  welfare of animals as the top goal. Like that. always has to be the point, right? What's if if  you're a veterinary board, the health of animals, that's why you exist. Totally. Right. Totally. But  it doesn't seem like they're thinking that way.

Well, again, what they'll say is we are thinking  of the pets. We think millions of dogs will die. with tele medicine. How will that happen? They'll  well let me tell you of some of these examples. I've seen they'll say like I'll say the example  I used anxiety like I'll say isn't that great for. tele medicine the dog is in the comfort of their  home and you can shoot they'll say well well what. if the dog ate a nail you know if the dog ate  a nail I've been in hearings where this example.

has happened well well if the dog ate a nail look  maybe he's barking cuz he ate a nail and and He's. in pain cuz he ate a nail. And so that's why we  shouldn't have. It's like, are there nails around. your house? Like, why um why are we going to use  this crazy madeup example to deny millions of. dogs from having this opportunity to use tele  medicine? Sure. And if your dog ate a nail, there's still no good reason why you shouldn't  start with tele medicine. Exactly. Yeah. Have.

that initial call. Yeah. Yeah. The vet will  walk you through it and then you'll know, do I go to ER or not. Exactly. It's not It  doesn't have to be an either or. I We had a. family dog at a pin recently. Uh a a needle,  you know, a sewing needle and um you know, obviously that's a brick and mortar situation.  Yes. Um the dog passed it without any problems, which is kind the the canine digestive tract is  a wonder. Wow. That's all kinds of things. mops,

pine cones, sewing needles emerge from it. But  um that it still would have been worth calling. initially. Like why not? Totally. Why not?  It takes before Dutch. Um there's a a poison. hotline that's like $75 just for that first call.  Yes. And you don't even know who who you're going. to get. And that's what people do because again  if that's what you need to do that's what you'll.

do. But there's definitely ways to talk to  a human being veterinarian very quickly even. that for much less and definitely much less than  having to spend $1,000 in ER. I had a case where. my dog I thought he was having a seizure and  I really I mean I really freaked out and I got. on Dutch and the vet says he's doing uh reverse  sneezing. Reverse sneezing. Reverse sneezing. I.

never heard of that in my life. And she showed me  videos of reverse sneezing and it looked exactly. like what he was going through. And like I said,  I was literally about to grab him, drive to ER, and she totally calmed me down and and made me  realize it was completely totally right. That's. Oh, what a great example. We just had a dog We've  had a dog eat marijuana in the park. We had a dog.

um eat hallucinogenic mushrooms in the woods.  Totally. The dog has been tripping ever since. That was four years ago. The dog is still seeing  trails. Um wonderful dog. woke up with a dog this. morning. Um, but in both cases, um, there really  was no treatment at all. And in both cases, those dogs were bundled up and taken to the vet,  which did not I'm not I love the vet. I'm not. against the vet to be clear, but it didn't help  at all because it's just remedy, right? There's a.

time and a place for everything. And I think tele  medicine is just a part of the overall experience. I don't think anyone's going to say it needs to  replace the and and and it won't happen because. it hasn't happened in human care, but I think it's  another option for people to get a piece of mind. and to have an option that's way more affordable  and we are seeing so many dogs like I said being.

given up or people who are saying I don't think  I can have a dog in my life. That sucks. Well, that's a tragedy. Especially people with children  need to have dogs. I think totally it's been yeah. for us my kids our little Eddie the corgi they  love him so much and it's it's the best can I. also say it's really good for im your immune  system to be around dogs yeah I think I've seen. studies that show that yeah when our first child  who's 31 came home from the hospital after being.

born of our dogs our spananiel jumped up and  licked the dog licked the child in the mouth. child's never been sick. That's just a fact. Yeah,  I think it definitely I feel like I've seen stuff. that show Yeah. that you get that immunity.  I'm pretty sure. We've always since I was born, we've always my family's always been committed to  that. Like you got to have a lot of dogs around. and you stay healthy and everyone's been really  healthy. I think that matters. Um, so again, I feel a little weird interviewing you because  you've advertised in our show and and all that,

but I just I just felt it so strongly. I feel like  this is such a good thing and I think there are a. lot of viewers of this who would agree and so I  just it was sincere. I really Thank you. Well, I think when you first called me it was, hey, I  like dogs. This makes sense. And I think I already. I was like, Tucker's got to know this conspiracy  that's happening because it's such bologoney and.

it's so unfair and so few people kind of like I  said know how monopolistic it is. And I thought. that your listeners and you could help us because  I think we're the Goliath in this fight or the. right with the David in this fight and it needs  people to understand how crazy the situation is. for both for veterinarians who like I said feel  scared to do tele medicine as well as for pet.

owners who can't afford it and it all has to do  with these trade associations who are keeping and. using their monopoly power to change to keep the  laws from changing. So I think that whole part you. had no idea was going on. I had literally no idea  and again for us at this age you know I I don't. it's the cost is not the main barrier for us. The  barrier is the dogs. It's just so much suffering.

for the dogs to go to the vet. And sometimes  there's no choice. And I get it. But if we can. avoid that, we would just be so thankful to avoid  it. And your dogs. So it's dutch.com. Yep. dutch. Well, I'm I'm sure I'll be attacked for insider  dealing, but it's not. I think you advertised. with us no matter what, but I just wanted  you to be able to say all of that at length, so I'm grateful that you did. Thank you. Yes, Joe  Spectre. Thank you. Thank you. [Applause] [Music].