The Occult, Kabbalah, the Antichrist’s Newest Manifestation, and How to Avoid the Mark of the Beast

I remember the first time somebody said to  me during an interview that something or. other was demonic. Used the word demonic. It  cannot have been more than six years ago and. I was completely shocked that someone would  use that term because it's not a political. term. It doesn't even describe like any human  social interaction. It's a spiritual term and. I just was not used to people using spiritual  terms to describe social movements or political. developments or whatever. But I think in that  time in the last six years things have really. changed and I hear it all the time. It's demonic.  They're demons. There is this sense that there's.

a spiritual underpinning that there's something  going on beneath the surface in American society. and in the world that's affecting outcomes and  affecting populations and like there's a spiritual. war in progress. You and I hope you'll explain  this and I'll get out of the way in a second, but you kind of stumbled into an extended  research project on this topic. Are there. actual occult connections to Hollywood, to  political figures, to technological advances,

to the leaders of our society? Are some of them  actually practicing a cult religion? Yeah, Tucker, it's about as weird as you said. Some would say  I think we're going to find out even weirder. [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music].

So, how did you I mean, you're not a theologian  that I'm aware of. Um, no. And if I was, I was a. very amateur theologian. No, I'm not not a scholar  as many will find out about. But but how did you. wind up coming to the conclusion that you know the  people who some of the people who help shape our. culture or build our technology were practicing  a cult literally practicing a cult religion?

I'll tell you well you know I was working on a  um television show, you know, trying to build. out this show. I I should back up. I I come from  a Hollywood family, Tucker. Um uh my grandfather. was the actor Robert Conrad. If you've uh some of  your listeners, Waw Wa West, Black Sheep Squadron, he go way back. Hawaiian Eye. Um, my other  grandfather Harry Flynn was a publicist in the uh, you know, for decades on the Monkeys, Bewitched,  I Dream of Genie. Two Occoul shows, Bewitched and. I Dream of Genie. Um, maybe it starts there. Um,  so um, I mean, not unlike your own father working.

in journalism as a boy, one of the first things  you learn when you have parents who work in media. or entertainment, you learn that things the People  magazine version of reality is not the truth. That. there there is a difference. That is true. That  is accurate. Yes. So, so I mean we're not getting. into oultism yet, but we're getting into the fact  that as a boy you learn that the way things are. presented, not always conspiratorial, but you're  always being shown a facade usually from the. mainstream I can't believe I'm saying mainstream  media already a minute into this, but um you know.

things are are not what they seem. So as a boy um  I was always told and shown that. So years later. um you know I through taken to Hollywood these  um these various uh show concepts and one of them. Tucker I was working on was about um when actors  first break into the business you know where do. they live how how do their lives go it was a very  wholesome show about the origins of actors and. show business but it was getting yeah you come to  LA from Nebraska what happens how does this work. but that gets into a basic thing you probably had  this as a boy yourself of wanting to know how does. thing how do things work you've seen the facade  so what's the truth you know how how does any.

show work how are stars madely So, I was working  on this show and you know, um, CO happened. Um, Hollywood kept lighting itself on fire. I I  was I I sold it to, um, BuzzFeed and then, um, while they're drawing up the contract, uh,  Buzzfeed went out of business. So, it was it was. a cursed volatile moment. Yeah. It was it was a  cursed show. The Wholesome One was cursed. So, at some point in 2022, I'd always had a dream  project of mine um just an a casual interest. um of of doing a show about rock and the occult,  about the secret history of um all these things.

that everyone's people are generally interested  in, but there's never been a kind of scholarly. uh in-depth hearing from everybody, not too  biased take on of you know, Jimmy Paige being into. Alistister Crowley, Alistister Crowley being on  the Beatles albums, things that, you know, maybe. we can dispel some myths, but also there's always  interesting actual weird stuff going on. Yeah. So, I wanted to take that show out and it became  kind of like not all of this is a figment of your. imagination. Oh, no, no, no. It it was not as as  uh as I learned the uh I don't say the hard way,

but no things. Yeah. So that that was the basis  of it of me wanting to uh doing research for. this this show which was tentatively titled  uh uh Running with the Devil. And I brought. in a legendary rock critic Steven Thomas Earline  from All Music, his uh colleague Ned Raget. Um and. then the the creators of the Osbor, the recently  departed Aussie Osborne, uh Sue Kolinsky and Craig. Johnson. So I brought in legit people. I brought  in some of the best critics we have in rock to. do a show that would, you know, we'd have um we'd  have Christians and pastors. We'd have a cultist.

One of my experts on the show was this guy uh uh  Mitch Horowitz, who I think you knew. I forget. if it was at Salon or um former editor of mine.  Yep. Yeah. Yeah. Very nice guy. Well, he's he's. he was an uh he became an expert on the occult.  Um I talked to him. Very nice guy. He's a I think. he's a self-described Satanist, you know. That was  after I knew him. That was we had to clarify that, you know. Yeah. Uh but um but uh so so while doing  this show, it's all a long way to say while doing. uh creating this show and taking it around town.  Um, you know, I I'm, you know, another guy that.

was a big influence, Gary Lochman, this a cult  historian, a friend of mine. Uh, well, doing this. show and trying to get it created. Um, I would  tell people I know in tech cuz I know a lot of. people in different circles. That's if I have one  superpower, it's I know a lot of different people. and have a lot of strange hobbies and interests  that kind of the ven diagram is very unique to me. So, while creating this show, the people in tech  and the people um some I know in Silicon Valley. or politics, they go, "That's a great concept  for a show." And then they'd say, you know, the some of the stuff going on in Silicon Valley,  you know, there there cult there are some weird.

kind of Alistister Crowley cults there or um you  know, while researching um one of the guys we'll. talk about, Nick Land, uh you know, who's huge in  Silicon Valley, his influences were identical with. some of the hardcore industrial music, goth music,  psychedelic guys in the 80s, uh guys that I was re. researching because this is hardcore occult stuff.  So for me, Tucker, at some point I was like, and. it kept occurring to me, why when I'm researching  this show and also hearing about what's going on.

in Silicon Valley with weird stuff, why is it  why am I hearing about the same stuff and why. are these people again, you think of Silicon  Valley and you think of the modern, you know, elite as being um secularists, rationalists, uh  people who have a, you know, no religion for me, thank you, attitude towards stuff. Why are they  into uh the same stuff that you know Kenneth Grant. uh Genesis P or was into Brian Gis and William  S. Burroughs? Why are they into the same weird.

stuff? So that was to answer your question that  was the that was the entry point into this for. me is having researched the show and being such  a nerd about it. I knew it forwards and backwards. that when I started to get into the tech stuff I  realized I was researching the same thing. It's. interesting. So here's the distinction that I make  in my mind. Um, and it's between people who are. participating in occult practices and have no idea  that they are, right? You know, people who are, you know, participating in abortion and don't  see it, don't understand it as what it is,

which is a child sacrifice ritual as old as  Canaan. Um, who are using hallucenic drugs, which are clearly a portal for demonic possession.  Sure. Um, really, the word witchcraft, uh, in Greek it's pharmarmacai, I think it is.  So there's always a natural link between. uh putting yourself they would say ecstatic states  or altered states uh that's always been the uh the. I mean there's a kind of lurid story behind the  witches broom in terms of what she's doing to work.

herself up into that state. But yeah, it's all  about but she's doing it intentionally. I guess. that's the distinction that I would make in a  secular country, a free to be you and me country. There are a lot of people who are doing things  cuz they're fun or interesting or everyone around. them is doing them and they don't understand the  spiritual consequences. But then there's another. category and this is this is the dividing line  in my head. There's a category of people who are. seeking power from supernatural forces that  they acknowledge are absolutely real. Right. Right. And they are practicing an occult religion  and they're doing it with self-awareness. Right.

Right. Right. And I always felt like there weren't  that many of those. But what I've learned from you. from our extensive text exchanges over the past  year is that um there are actually some of those. quite a few of those. Oh, but totally. I mean,  look at it a couple ways. Among other things, Tucker, we're living through um uh an explosion in  um I mean, a cult's a big broad term. Yes. Um what. does it Can we define it? I mean, it technically  means the hidden, but um there's a book written by.

these guys that they ran a cult bookstore in New  York in the 70s. It's called Bull from Heaven or. something like that. But one of their definitions  it had to do with uh new age elements of new age. philosophy and neopagan thinking I think was part  of their definition but that but broadened out a. bit. A cult can also just mean interest in new  age, which accounts for like 80% of Americans, whether it's astrology, uh whether it's the  concept of manifesting, which is um you know, the law of attraction type stuff. That stuff is  huge. And as I've talked with you about, it's also.

huge on the right in terms of maja, make America  healthy again. Um these ideas that we don't think. of as being too goth or too occult or too um  out of the mainstream have become incredibly. mainstreamed over the last decades. Uh but I mean  even going back to 19th century America, they. were there and even 18th, but since the '60s, uh  they've exploded, but they've become so ingrained. in our lives, we don't typically notice, uh their  origins. We don't see them as a cult. No. No. But. we're we're also living through a goth explosion.  I mean, I mean, I know you're not a huge, uh,

you sit in front of the TV and watch Netflix, but  like shows like Wednesday, uh, Stranger Things, uh, horror is, you know, in terms of box office,  maybe not in terms of creativity is as big as it's. ever been. You know, Oh, yeah. Halloween, uh,  some people half joke that Halloween will be. on pace to overtake Christmas at some point, just  because it's like, it's become like a year- round. thing. Halloween? Yeah, Halloween's huge. Yeah,  every year it gets bigger. So there's there's.

an element of this Tucker where once once you I  didn't I hate to admit in public how out of it I. am but I had no idea this the first Oh yeah. No,  no, goth is huge. I mean even singers like Billy. Isish and stuff goth is is huge because it leads  to happiness. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know I I mean. Yeah. Happiness. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We've got a new  partner. It's a company called Cowboy Colostrum. It's a brand that is serious about actual health.  And the product is designed to work with your. body, not against your body. It is a pure and  simple product, all natural. Unlike other brands,

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mentioned you heard it here first. It It's a huge  thing. So, it's one of those things that once once. you alert someone to to how popular something is,  it's like learning a new word where you're like, I've never heard this word in my life. for the  next the next week all you hear is obstreporous. like wow we are we like that guy is obre there it  is again um so uh so no so this stuff is huge but. um yeah the the reason I as opposed to a lot of  other people was able to really notice it is again. I was working on this show I know the history of  rock I know I know a lot of you know fair amount. about politics I know some of the text stuff  a little bit of um art history and literature.

uh so when you know when people were talking when  when you know Nick Lander whoever is talking about. you know I learned uh kab Abala from Kenneth Grant  and Alistister Crowley and stuff that I'm like. Kenneth Grant he's he's the guy that got Bow House  and a lot of the goth guys into uh witchcraft and. industrial music. What what is Nick Land this  uh this academic who is uh you know incredibly. influential on AI AI? What is he doing being into  this stuff? Okay. So, one of the challenges of.

this conversation is kind of where to begin and  what's the narrative spine and how do you explain. something that's that's this pervasive, complex,  and and basically so rarely explained. Mhm. So, maybe we start with just a very straightforward  explanation of who Nick Land is. You've referred. to him twice. Yes. Yeah. So, um uh let me see.  Nick Nick Land is kind of essentially the Timothy. Liry of the 90s and 2000s. He's he's the Velvet  Underground or Brian Eno of philosophers. No hits,

incredibly influential. Okay. So, um you know,  uh the thing is with Lance, he's a philosopher. He's a philosopher. He worked in the philosophy  department of Warick uh University over uh in. the in England in the UK uh in the early 90s. One  of the ways I actually really got into this stuff. is a friend of mine, Simon Reynolds, brilliant  cultural critic, brilliant rock critic, originally. from the UK, um, I brought him on to the show to  do to the music show and he interviewed Nick Land.

And Simon, you know, is the most stiff upper  lip, uh, you know, very intellectual English. guy you could know. And so the fact that he was  interviewing Nick Land, who the people said, you know, he's crazy. He's into the occult.  He's into all these wild things, I was like, well, if Simon interviewed him, this will be a  downto-earth understanding of who Nick Land is, cuz Simon's very down to earth. So when I read  Simon's interview with him, which is from 1998, and um it's also where Simon meets the philosopher  Mark Fischer, um which I I got to relish, uh Tuck,

this is probably the first and last time someone  will bring up Mark Fischer on your podcast. So. this is I want to take some time enjoy that. Um  uh but uh but so Simon uh you know he interviews. Nickland and in his article it's very lengthy. He  talks about how Nickland uh is possessed by three. or four entities at the same time. That's the  legend. We don't know you know take take what you. will about any of this but you know that three or  four entities at the same time. Um he's bringing. up current spiritual entities. Yeah. Demons.  He's really into demons. uh he uh he brings.

up the the 93rd Current which is the name of a  band uh Current 93 which is Alistister Crowley's. uh the Lima and uh they're they're they're  drawing pentagrams they're renting out Alistister. Crowley's house and so that was a huge moment  for me where I was like wait a second uh this guy. that's very big in tech uh on the future of AI uh  my buddy is interviewing him and he's heavily into. all these heavy industrial goth things that uh I  know about from from this research here. What's. he doing in AI? So, so what what are Nick Lan's  ideas? Well, that that was I went on a he still a.

philosophy professor. Yeah, he's you can catch him  on X and Twitter, you know, tweeting out one tweet. at a time. I think he's uh xenoccismography I  think is the uh is the tweet is the is his handle. and he used to be outsideness. Um but you know,  he can be pretty, you know, pretty brilliant and. smart and has some good takes. But um you know in  his way but uh uh he was uh what are the themes of. his work? So he he eventually you know he he says  his work was entirely channeled you know chneled.

as an automatic writing. So this this goes back  centuries but 100 years ago you had poets like. WB Yates you noticed me struggling to make sure  I make sure I pronounce that correctly. Um he you. know he had his wife do uh do a channeling  to write his book. Uh a channeling means. essentially you're possessed to write this that  you this didn't come naturally from you that maybe. some outside force takes over your hands angels.  Yes. And so so his work on AI which is incredibly. influential uh he he said was was an outside force  to write this and uh and Nick is a proponent of.

AI. Oh yeah. No, he's a proponent of AI, but his  philosophy is essentially that uh we are it's we. are building this AI that's going to become not  only just super intelligent, but it eventually. becomes so advanced that it gains omniscience. It  gains omnipotence and it becomes this superhuman. god-like thing that transcends humanity,  eventually destroys humanity and he gets really. into the book of Revelation, ends up becoming the  demons from the book of Revelation. The real thing.

with Nick Lan that wait what becomes the demons of  revelation? AI does that AI that we are building. the demons from the book of revelation with AI  and that's Nick Lan's position but I should say. too it's the position of a lot of these guys Elon  Musk has said that we are with AI we are summoning. the demon. Yes he has said that. He said that 10  years ago in an interview and he's said similar. things every year since. But Elon is or was  trying to sound the alarm on that. Nick Land.

is for this. I I mean with a lot of these guys, it  ends up being a lot of them are I mean, you know, they would maybe blanket Satanist. Although Nick  Land has said, you know, Christians who believe. that what he's doing is is talking to Satan when  he does these divination things. He says they're. not totally wrong. He's not unsympathetic to  it. He says he is hearing from the outside and. that these are uh um you know uh he's not totally  unsympathetic for it. But but with a lot of these. guys, what was interesting about Nick Land is that  uh there's a they keep getting the same ideas.

These guys take drugs whether it's Elon Nick or  even in the 70s the scientist John C. Lillly. John. C. Liy was an eminent scientist, brilliant dude.  He started doing uh ketamine the same the same. drug you know everyone does in Silicon Valley and  they when they do this drug and even if you're an. atheist materialist this is still interesting.  they all get the same idea which is that the. machines are, you know, coming. It's like Skynet  and Terminator. They're coming together. They're. um they're evolving to eventually take over  and that we are uh hanging ourselves with the.

rope we're currently building by building this.  But this goes back Nick Land was interesting, but he became less interesting to me when I  realized that other scientists in the 70s uh. John C. Lily the movie al uh altered states from  1980 is horror movie. This is about, you know, you know, he would have these visions about the  machines. He called them the solid state entities. Um he he would have this in the 70s Tucker in  this in this tank. Um the isolation tank he'd. go in the new and you probably haven't seen it,  but the new Mission Impossible movie, um Tom Cruz,

you know, he fights this AI and he goes in the  isolation tank and he has these visions of it. One of the biggest movies of this past summer  and uh that that plot point comes from John C. Lily and the visions he would get of AI apocalypse  in the isolation tank back in the 70s. So I bring. this up to say Nick Land is the most foremost uh  proponent of it that has a public name even though. he's not that famous right now but this goes back  a long time uh you know at least back to the 70s.

So are these so people take ketamine and they  all have the same vision? I mean or species of. enough enough of them do to make it very strange  and alarming that I mean I mean that that's the. thing that one of the main influences on both the  show I was building and these guys um Brian G S. Burls is create a partner he would say the thing  is about getting high and about doing psychedelics. is that you know you can spot people you know  eventually who are on the same drug and you're. both getting the same ideas some some drugs he  said you know increases telepathy you know people.

are it puts them on the same same wavelength so  with a lot of these guys it's a little weird that. different people from different places, different  countries, different life experiences would take. a drug and have the same kind of vision. It's  totally weird. And for anyone who who's tuned in, that can't be organic. No, no, no. And and and but  that that is weird beyond what anyone's individual. personal beliefs are. So, exactly. That that's  Yeah. So, if anyone tunes in and they're like, "Where did Tucker find this guy that looks like  Greg Olsen talking about uh insane AI stuff?" Uh.

I'm if they're an atheist, they don't believe any  of this. Like you're saying, the fact that people. are taking these drugs and they're very powerful  and they work in tech and they are getting the. same ideas, the same fears. They think in some  cases they're talking to the same entities. There. are books now about you if you take DMT, if you  encounter this this machine elf, be wary of this, you know, they're encountering the same stuff.  That's that's an interesting phenomenon just. biologically regardless of what people like.  Ancient sacred art has the same images created. on different continents at different periods.  They couldn't have had contact with each other.

So why why are they drawing the same bird man or  the same purse like it because they're seeing the. same visions which suggests that those visions  are real. Why why is snake worship uh universal. around the world serpent worship? Here's something  you may not have known. Back in 2015, the Congress. of the United States repealed something called  the Country of Origin Labeling Act. Now why is. this relevant to you? Well, it means among  other things that when you buy beef at the. supermarket that says made in the USA, it may not  actually be. In fact, it could be likely is from.

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It's worth it. Exactly. Because there's something  that people are responding to that's not coming. from within them, but outside of them. That that  was Carl Jung's like main insight is that um is. that you know getting the idea of of can ideas  come from without you and not just within you. So yeah. Well, yeah. And the materialist doesn't  want to admit that. And our culture has kind since.

we dropped the atom bomb has sort of written  off the possibility that that could be true, but it's just reconnecting with something that  every civilization has always assumed was true, which is there's a spiritual realm that's every  bit as real as your iPhone or this desk. And it's. just it's absolutely real and it acts on us all  the time. And and that is the truth. Yeah. And. um I know you seem to take that for granted, but  it's still shocking to those of us who grew up. in a m you know basically a a godless country.  It's totally I mean one of the the basis for.

my my interest in a lot of this is you know um my  mom I was raised in a Christian home. I consider, you know, I'm a Christian myself and my mom would  always say, you know, she became a Christian in. the 70s and she but she knew all the psychedelic  um groups back in the '60s, you know, Love Spirit, um you know, she and my aunt would go to,  you know, Door Shows and all those, you know, uh groups from the late 1960s. And something  that she'd say and and that people who are. um you know rock and rollers into the occult  would say that they both say the same thing. um which is that people take drugs musicians do uh  for inspiration for creativity to tap themselves.

into the spiritual realm to get to pull something  from outside themselves. So the basis for my. interest in a lot of this stuff was like that's  something my mom says my mom's great Christian one. of the all-time greats and uh this is something  that you know every musician knows too that's. why they take drugs is to tap into the spiritual  so I didn't know that I thought that people took. drug I mean I took drugs um people take drugs for  all kinds I'll admit it but I always assumed that. those insights or really mostly fake insights  but um all that stuff came from within that it.

was I mean I bought the Freudian analysis of it  that there's you only use 10% of your brain and. there's this whole sort of primordial sea in your  head of of thoughts and visions that you're not. in touch with on a daily basis, but that drugs  thin the membrane, but I it never occurred to. me a single time until middle age when I started  to see reality that actually they're coming from.

outside you. Well, that and Tucker, that's a great  point. That's something that any psychedelic eye, it's kind of a double double standard thing I deal  where when talking about drug use, they'll always. say, "Well, there's no difference between what's  going on in my head and what's going outside.". It's we're all one. That's always, you know,  I think it was William James said, you know, the great oceanic feeling. You know what he what  he would but that's the that's always their big. insight is, hey man, what's going on in my head  is different from what's going outside until the. psychonaut encounters some sort of weird demon  on DMT and then they backtrack and they're like, "Brother, that's just in my head. Don't worry.  what's in my head can't get in your head. So they.

they go from until you have two different people  meeting the same demon. Right. Right. Right. Then. you realize, well, wait a second. Psychonauts are  maybe not the most logistically consistent. No, but I'm just saying again just to hammer the point  again and again and again because it can't be. hammered hard enough that there is a realm that  exists outside of us over which we are not in. control. Yes. And that it can enter. You can bring  stuff into you. Right. That has control over you.

Right. Right. Right. Totally. And you know, um,  to bring this back into some historical precedent, a good question that, you know, people have asked  me, you know, what are the precedents for this? Because this is really weird to think of people  in tech, uh, you know, who are into this strange. AI stuff. You know, I thought everyone was pretty  grounded. But, um, you know, if you look at, um, you know, are you familiar with the story of Jack  Parsons over at um, you know, he Please tell the. story if you don't mind. I mean, I'll I'll do do  a succinct one. Um, Jack Parsons, you know, he.

grew up in Pasadena. um you know he was uh he was  brought on by I think it's Theodore von Cararman. um uh this uh this scientist over at I think it's  Cal is it Caltech or eventually it was JPL but he. but he he was really really into the occult and  uh he summoned the devil allegedly when he was. 13 really really into esoteric stuff part of this  greater LA avantgard scene and um you know he's. I think like the I think he's been said he's the  fourth most important person in the in the history. of um of uh send you know of jet rocketry and  stuff like that, but he was really really into the.

idea of um you know bringing in a uh manifesting  a supernatural being. So he would go with. um Elron Hubard, the future founder of Scientology  and I know that Scientology said they say that. Elron Hubard was he was doing intelligence  work. he wasn't really into into this stuff, but. um he would uh he would go with Ron Hubbert into  um the Pasadena Royal Seiko and they do rituals. there and they try to uh manifest, you know, like  a kind of supern natural uh figure. So there's a.

classic example there and science is littered with  these of people who are brilliant scientists but. who are into incredibly strange stuff and uh  you know his the guy I noticed that a lot of. those scientists are working on technology that  kills people. Yeah. You know, they also do that, too. And and the guy that brought him on, well,  Parsons was doing that. Well, I mean, ultimately, the technology was used to kill people.  Which one are you referring to? Rocketry. Oh, yeah. Rocketry was. And what's funny, too, is he  he he either he or Von Cararman, they donated to.

um my friend Rick Spence. He he um he's like  the Doc Brown to my Marty McFly. This he's. this historian I brought on for um my show trying  to do it, and he's an expert on Parsons and this. stuff. and he pointed out to me that Parsons and  Bonarman that they were um they were part of the. Pasadena cell 122 of the Communist Party, which  is he said the exact same one that I forget if it. was Robert or Frank Oppenheimer and Pasadena were  also donating money to. So there's an incidental.

um funny historical connection there between  Oppenheimer and Parsons and um you know the. the Communist Party. But uh as if we needed more  evidence that nuclear weapons are demonic. Well, I know this upsets certain people on the so-called  right, but the pro and evil. Yeah. Um, it is funny. though. the uh I was going to say the uh Parsons  the guy that brought Parsons on though was this. guy um Theodore Vonarman and uh Vonarman's uh  father told him told Carmen brilliant scientist.

that he was descended from I was going to butcher  the names here but I think it was Rabbi Low the. uh 16th century Prague rabbi who uh brought  together the golem which I bring up because. uh that's something you notice with AI too is a  lot of the main figures in AI I um they all think. of themselves as being descended from creating a  golem and the nature of digital life and this is. also very important to Nick Lan's thinking um is  very similar to to Cabala which is you're you're.

using um in in digital life ones and zeros  but you're you're using an algorithm a set. of instructions to bring an inanimate object  to life which is the creation of a golem you. know you use clay it's man man as god tell us  what a golem is man never thought this would be. the Tucker's asking me what a golem is where the  movie would do the record scratch freeze frame. You might be wondering how I got here. Tell us  what a golem is. Con. Um, a golem is essentially.

uh it's a it's a creature, you know, mythical but  with with digital life or um we've already kind of. created them. The idea of man creating a creature  that uh an artificial life form. So back in the. 16th century, the idea was you take clay and then  you you'd create the little parts of a little man, kind of create a, you know, like a Frankenstein.  Frankenstein's a golem. Yeah. Essentially, but you'd have the algorithm, you know, or the  or the ritual uh and you'd animate the thing, uh,

you know, using, you know, symbols and numbers  and it would eventually come to life and uh, and be your slave. And be your and be well, what's  funny is be be your slave. But the legend of the. the um the golem in Prague and this it's probably  just assuredly just a legend is that it broke. free and started killing people and doing all  these things. So that's an important point to. make is when people talk how do we assume that's  a legend? You know, you would think that would. have gone viral on TikTok on something in the  16th century if if if they had that. I mean,

you know what's funny though is that you look at  stuff like the Terminator movies and these idea. of AI apocalypse which is very very big right now.  I mean, the Washington Journal uh they had this um. last week, you know, it's it's the the phone and  chat GPT is bringing up all kinds of great occult. lore. This is from the uh the occult journal, Wall  Street Journal, very obscure cobalistic newspaper. based out of New York City. No. Um and so the  art, in case viewers can't see it, is a serpent.

emerging from a rose. Yeah. Wrapped around the  arm of the iPhone holder. Yeah. And so, you know, this idea of weird technology, of things getting  out of hand. When people talk about the AI and the. AI demons or this or that, uh, it actually just  goes back to the golem. I mean, the Terminator. movies are essentially about golems, man creating  a creature, the creature breaking free from man. and and killing him. And in the case of Nick  Landel, and but the original golem in Prague, the one you're referring to in the 16th century,  was the product of something called Cabala. Yeah.

Cabala. And this this is an essential Nickland  thing. Uh what is cabala? Cabala is something. uh after the destruction of the first temple  um the Jewish people were famously enslaved. and taken captive by the Babylonians. This  is where the book of Daniel's written and. uh what Nickland does and a lot of these guys do  is they they end up perverting uh Jewish history. and they you know in the Bible it says you know  salvation is of the Jews which people forget and.

a lot of people that don't like Jews you know  they forget you know the Bible comes from the. Jews. It's all almost all exclusively written by  Jewish men, but maybe not the book of Luke. So, what um Nick Land does and a lot of these guys is  they say the real purpose of the Jewish people was. that they picked up Cabala from the Babylonians  uh back in maybe fifth century before Christ and. that they they kept it. It eventually becomes,  you know, Cabala is essentially it's a form of. uh and people would say magic. I mean, Gary  Lochman says that what we think of as occultism is.

all essentially kabala, at least in the west. It's  a it's a form of magic. Uh, it's a form of uh, you know, I'm going to butcher this cuz I'm not  a scholar on it, but essentially what Nick Lan. believes is that the Jewish people that they they  kept uh, the Cababala, they they it eventually. becomes digital life um, you know, through ones  and zeros, but it's it's a Gnostic religion, which. is to say it's hidden from non-initiates. Yeah. I  mean I mean there's there's a mainstream version.

version of it but uh yeah it eventually kind of  becomes uh what what they believe um it it pre. it's a precursor to digital life. So what land and  a lot of these people believe is that the actual. salvation that the Jewish people provided was  keeping Kabala which eventually becomes digital. life which eventually becomes AI which eventually  becomes the creatures in the book of revelation. which essentially later go on to destroy  humanity and fulfill the book of revelation. But that is a good thing. A lot of them believe  something amazing is happening in the US after.

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that. Now, why would that be a good thing? For a  lot of these guys, um like Nick Land, you know, he calls himself a theosophist. Theosophy um  again hard hard thing to um ent you know untie. but in part because the religion itself was kind  of a mishmash. It was a 19th century philosophy. uh formally uh put in place by Madame Lovatsky  I think in 1875 a Russian immigrate to London. Yes. And she come from a long background of  like you know Freemasons and German you know. um yeah she she came from a very occult. Her first  cousin was the premier was the president of Russia.

Sergey Vitz. I'm again probably butchering a lot  of names here but um but uh so Madam Levatsky was. a very famous person in 197 she was essentially  the mother of the new age movement. So what. she believed uh it's it's western esotericism  mixed with eastern religion. It's essentially. protohippie protohippy protoc California uh  counterculture stuff. A great book on this one of. my favorite books is a book by Martin Green called  Mountain of Truth uh about Asana Switzerland. It's.

about the birth of the modern counterculture,  the California counterculture, you know, whether. it was uh Trosky and Lenin or uh Carl Jung, all  these people hung out Tucker in the same place in. Switzerland in like the 1920s. But so theosophy's  main insight according to land was that um and he. said it himself the secret doctor in the name of  her book um was that uh this is what land believes. about Bulbotsky the serpent is the redeemer that  Satan and Jesus are the same person which also.

ties in with a gnostic called called the orites  I believe from the second century who again they. believe when Moses is holding up the snake on  a stick that's also Jesus on the cross pretty. heretical stuff so to to answer your question  how do you get into Satanism. Again, another, you know, uh, record scratch. How did I get here  moment to say that say that out loud? Um, they. they believe that essentially it's the Gnostic  idea that Adam and Eve were uh were slaves in. the garden, that they uh they were stuck there,  that the serpent by by when he approaches them,

he essentially gives them the red the red pill  speech from the matrix. Look, you're a slave here. You're not doing anything. You're naming animals  and tending to a garden. You're never going to. break free from this over god that's here. I can  give you a I can give you a choice. You know, take. this fruit, this red pill. I don't know if it was  a pill. Uh or you can stay here and be a slave. But just know if you take this thing, if you take  this pill, if you eat this fruit of knowledge, which as you can see, I should emphasize this,  the tree of knowledge very much ties directly.

into this whole concept of AI, which is we are  kind of creating this tree of knowledge. But we'll. get to that in a second. But the serpent says you  can eat from the tree of knowledge and you know. there'll be a price to pay for that but you're  going to be free and you're going to be you're. going to you know you'll be like a god once you  rebel against dad. Yeah. Essentially yes you you. will be free. You need to transgress. You need  to sin but you you're going to be like a god. Eve famously eats the fruit you know brings death  into the world. And you know they they understand.

shame. They have this nosis moment Adam and Eve  where they realize oh my goodness we're naked. Who are we? you know that they have this self  they have this selfactualization moment that is. the gnostic interpretation of the garden of Eden  and that is very much uh you know it's it's an. ancient ancient idea no ideas are really true too  new but to answer your question that's the oldest. idea of all it's very old but bow down before me  and you'll be like God yeah and but to get back to. your original question how do how do people get  into these ideas of um I mean the theosophists.

would say the you know in some cases you know  it seems like they believe in Satan. But even. on a metaphorical level, they would say um the  mind, intelligence is Satan. That the human mind, it's breaking free. This is intelligence breaking  out. So, I want to make a crucial point here. When they talk about AI and they talk about AI  apocalypse and they talk about um intelligence. breaking free and AGI, you're getting into this  idea that even Land himself will say is theosophy, but it goes way back of the mind breaking out and  rebelling against God, intelligence breaking free.

That's what they believe happened in the  garden withnosticism with notnosticism. means knowledgeism. It's knowledge. This is pure  knowledge that this is that breaking free and. that by creating these runaway AI things that's  what we're also doing. And the fact that it may. kill humanity or transcend humanity or humanity  will need to evolve to go with it. That's cool. They see it Tucker as essentially being the same  situation in the garden. Break free. Do it. Yes,

you'll bring death. Yes, you'll get us all killed  or some people killed. Whatever. just do it. You. know, uh, cults typically don't buy green bananas  as far as thinking ahead. They don't. And this. is a religion for people who don't have children.  No. No. Of course. Just do it. Right. Um, so what. I think you've successfully done is tied a bunch  of different threads together and pointed them all. the way back to the origin story. Well, I I hope I  did. I hope I just didn't do the it's always sunny.

meme of him having the um you know all these index  cards and just just it's a very hard thing to No, I think you you laid out the thematic basis of  nasticism, cabala, whatever you're calling it, the occult, it's all a rebellion against God and  it's always predicated on the same transaction. which is bow down before me and I will give you  power. Well, it definitely can be that and I want. to emphasize, you know, they they do pervert  Jewish history by making the Jewish people by.

by them preserving the Cabala when they're when  they're in exile and and and picking it up, they. say that's the real purpose of the Jewish people.  And the people that are that are into um the AI. forrunners, whether it's Marvin Minsky, who uh  was one of the Epstein, that was one of the guys. that the girl uh who I think um killed herself in  the last year. Um she said she met Marvin Minsky. and was told have sex with this dude. Um he's one  of the founding fathers of AI but you know he he. comes from this uh the background of um uh having  fathers uh yeah he comes from the background he.

was told that he was the descendant of Rabbi Lo  the uh the Prague guy the creator of the golem. as was Jack Good who wrote one of the uh main  books that you know is about AI in 1965 was a. relative of the yeah but most of them aren't I  think the one I mentioned earlier von Cararman. actually was like they were he was the one  that was told like you actually are descended. from him the other one it's more like telling a  wasp kid, you know, you're you're a descendant. of George Washington or whatever, right? You're a  Mayflower descendant. Yeah. But but but you know,

even though uh you know, they kind of pervert  Jewish history like that, anti-semites also love. Cabala, too. I mean, even um it was found  in 2008. Uh in Hitler's personal library, he had a book from Ernest Shle, the Alistister  Crowley of Germany. And he and um I mean, not. many people know this story because it's recent,  but um Hitler was circling like cobbalistic things. about Satan and this stuff. So, and this is this  is something that Gary Lockman's pointed out. Um, it's a key part of Jewish history, but also even  people that hate Jews also really get into Cabala,

too. So, I don't want to, you know, generalize  too much. Interesting. Um, so back to land. So, land is this academic. He's a phil tenur, I  assume, tenure philosophy professor. He's a. philosophy professor at a British university. He  said he describes himself or has been described. as occupied by demons, possessed by demons. Oh,  yeah. My friend Simon, I think I mentioned that. earlier when he went out there, it said, you  know, land the legend around land is he had been. possessed by at least three or four demons at the  same time. So, normally like as a resume point, that would be a deal killer. If someone comes  to you and says, "I want to work for you. I'm.

possessed by demons." You would you would  say, "No, I don't want any demonpossessed. employees." But for Lamb, typically, yeah, that  increases his stature with certain people. Well, totally. I mean this is something and this is a  huge thing I I learned Tucker in researching this. thing that I was reading this book um because with  Land and his and his group of academics the CCRU. um the cultural cybernetic research unit they  were very much based off of Genesis Porig's.

uh temple of psychic youth where the idea the idea  comes from Burroughs which is to use modern tech. to its fullest for occult purposes that the modern  magician does not shy away from using the latest. tech that is William Burroughs his thing. There's  a great book called uh The Occult World of William. S. Burroughs and it talks about how he'd use  audio recordings, movies, editing to try to edit. reality to try to try to create a a glitch in the  matrix or whatever you want to say to do that. Um. so Land and his guys um can I say interject and  just say you've you've mentioned Jack Parsons,

you've mentioned Bill Burroughs, all the legends.  Yeah, all the legends. Um but if you look at the. life trajectory of all of these people, it ends  in poverty, misery, insanity, suicide, addiction, alienation. Like is there a single person in the  world you're now describing for whom it ends well? No. And that was Tucker. That was one of the  reasons that was really surprising researching.

land is uh he mentions this guy Kenneth Grant  who's a powerful music uh I was going to say. musician, powerful magician. Alistister Crowley's  secretary and what Kenneth Grant said um you know. very steeped in the occult English guy uh he said  about rock and roll which again was the basis from. my the show of like rock and the occult. He said  Ken Grant said of course rock and roll is demonic. He goes look at the way these guys look at the  way their lives end. He goes of course this is. horrible for you. So when I read that, yes,  when you die at 27 of self-inflicted wounds,

as famously so many of them did, that's not like  a sign that you're on the right path, right? Well, it ends horribly for most of them. But that, but  the fact that Kenneth Grant had said that, this. wasn't coming from a pastor. This is coming from  Alistister Crowley's secretary. I was like, this. I was like, this is the show. I was like, when  you've got this guy saying that. So, Tucker, when. I found that Nick Lenn was influenced by this guy  Kenneth Grant, this famous, you know, black mag. black magician, I was like, wait a second. That's  when I knew I had more than a show. I'm like,

wait, the the goth legends, Bow House, Coil, Nurse  with Wound. Again, we got to take a break. No one. I don't think we'll ever bring up Nurse with Wound  again on your show. So that that's Yeah, I of. course have literally no idea what you're talking  about, but but the fact that there was a huge. intersection between um the industrial music scene  and these hardcore um occult practitioners and the. current AI leaders in Silicon Valley, I was like,  what have I stumbled into? What is going on here?

So when Alistister Crowley's secretary says, of  course rock and roll is demonic, basically I mean. you've got the horseshoe effect right here. So,  here you have Alistister Crowley, like famous. Satanist. Um, I mean, I would say he would say  he's a he's a gnostic, but you you do get into. a thing of like, well, what is narcissism? Yeah.  Well, that, you know, Satanist is my description, but it seems obvious. Um, to me, but whatever.  A guy who's like worshiping demons heavily.

into Yeah. heavily into the occult. It when his  secretary says rock and roll is demonic, agreeing. with like every, you know, the famous pastor after  every kid who cried cuz his dad took his Emerson. Lake and Palmer albums in the 70s, you know.  I guess it all was very obvious, right? Well, well, that's that's how I knew I could finally  make the show is cuz you you know there's I mean, of course it's demonic. Like, duh. Well, I think  a lot of it I mean, you can't argue with you can't. argue with Alice Crowley secretary. I think it's  the main thing. That's right. You know, but that.

that was was interesting why I finally wanted to  do the show is for so many decades you couldn't do. a show like this because everyone would get so  defensive about rock and roll. It' be taking a. child's toy away where it's like can we do a show  that that has it has pastors, it has Christians, that has rabbis, it has all these people who talk  about the religious aspect of music, but then. could you also get these other people who uh are  into the darker side of things to also talk about. it? And for so long, especially um with a lot of  Christians, they they would be so defensive about.

it's there's nothing wrong with that. I can do  what I want with this that you couldn't actually. have made the show. It's only because rock and  roll is uh I'm going to be the millionth person. to say this is many ways culturally dead or is so  irrelevant that you can finally do a show on this. It's like, yeah, it actually did infect America  with some kind of incurable spiritual cancer that. led to where we are now. Yeah. I mean, what was  funny, there was the writer Theodoro Darmple, and he um was a brilliant man. Yeah. Yeah. He's  a he's a brilliant writer, and he he went to. um he he was uh commissioned by the Spectator  cuz he he's such a smart uh well-learned guy,

and they thought it'd be hilarious to send him  to an Oasis concert uh in England, and this is. about in the '90s. And he he goes there and he  he writes about it and he he says this is you. know rock concerts are essentially fascism with  you know the the the unity of the crowd and the. shouting and the spirit of uh derelct behavior.  And he said and this is from the spectators. This. is a pretty conservative newspaper. He never got  more push back for anything he ever wrote in his. career. And he he's a man who's known to have many  a hot take than when he criticized rock and roll.

So as you know as a journalist whenever you have  something that touches a nerve where people like. you can talk about whatever you want Tucker but we  won't let you talk about this or we ask that you. not talk about. Yeah. Yeah. So that's but here's  a question I I have had for you over your years. as a journalist uh in doing tons of TV. Um I know  only the last few years you've you've been more. interested in in spiritual life and the Bible  and and seeing uh you know spiritual meaning.

and stuff. Is there a story you've covered in  the last few or just a story you've covered at. all where at the beginning you took a much more  secular much more cut and dried approach to it. that now if you if you today had covered that back  then you would see every story every story I mean. especially war which I have covered in person  and certainly talked a lot about over the years. um I I just saw it as a product you know the  sort of failure of state craft and like you know.

nations act rationally you know one country wants  this territory either to conquer or to reclaim it. and this country doesn't want to give it up and  so they have a war over it you know that's I had. a very secular understanding of war and it was the  first world war that changed my view probably 15. years ago well what was it be 10 years ago so uh  the anniversary of the the outbreak of the war. in 1914 there There was a series of symposia  in Europe on like you know what was that you.

know it destroyed Christian Europe and uh for  maybe forever and like what I mean the apogee. of human civilization was 1913 obviously and  then it was really it was destroyed and it. never recovered and a bunch of other empires fell  including the Ottoman and Austrohungarian and all. this stuff it's like it reshuffled the map and  gave rise not just to the second world war but. to the world that we now live in. So like how did  it start? Goal princip kills Archduke Ferdinand.

Sievo and okay but how does it follow that like  Christian Europe commits suicide in the wake of. one assassination and the Balkans like what that  doesn't even make sense. Right. Right. Right. And. there was no consensus a hundred years later on  why the war started. Right. And that's when you. begin to like ask real questions like what are we  what was that? And and it was of course it was it. was spiritual in its origin and so is the war in  Ukraine and so is what's happening in Gaza and so.

is basically all human activity is influenced by  the spiritual realm which once again is as real. as anything that we're doing here as real as the  material world. And so that to me is someone who's. interested in history in a very amateur way but  still passionately interested. I was like, "Wow, I am not assessing the human experience in its  totality. I'm only seeing a small part of it." And. um so now I really make an effort which it's  difficult at the age of 56 to relearn patterns,

but I'm trying to assess human behavior in light  again of the to in light of it totality of the. human experience, much of which is influenced by  the spiritual realm. And it's like hard because. I still my default is always like this person's  pissed at this person or this person wants more. money or this person wants to sleep with that  guy's wife or but to ascribe to be fair human. motives to to explain human activity but  um but that's only part of the story. Oh, totally totally and there's this obvious to you.  It's not obvious to me at all. No, but what's got.

to be fascinating for you is going back over your  career and I got to say something that's that's. funny is um you know you've been on TV for decades  and I've heard your voice for decades. So there's. a there's a there's an element of talking to you  where my brain will be half a second slow because. I'll hear your voice not right now but earlier  and part of my brain is like someone obviously. left the TV on or turn that [ __ ] thing off or  or has this is why I don't have No or someone has. a podcast going cuz just Tuckers and then my brain  is like a half second delay and I'm like dude he's. talking to you. Sorry. No, but I'm just so I'm  just I've heard your voice over this as we all.

have over decades. So it it is funny cuz we were  talking earlier and I'm like, "Oh yeah, oh, wait, wait. That's that's me. He's asking me if I'm  ready to go." So I get so this is all kind of new. to me and when I talk to people who are, you know,  lifelong students of uh of of religion, which is. of course the main driver of human behavior from  the beginning of time. And for you know again. since we dropped the atom bomb we lied to we have  lied to ourselves about that and kind of deleted.

that whole category from public conversation which  is or you know it's been left to like Jerry Fwell. and Rabbi Schmoolley and other various buffoons  to like talk about religion. It's like so sad but. um it's been moved to the fringes but when I talk  to someone like you who's clearly thought about. this much more deeply than I have and over a much  longer period I'm a man of many books and PDFs. Yeah. It doesn't sound like it's like shocking  to you. Well, well, that's the thing we're going. back to talking about earlier in terms of uh it's  a mixture of um in in my case, uh you know, having.

read a lot, but also knowing people and knowing  some people involved. We were talking earlier. about um you know, when you have a father who  works in journalism, it it it grounds you. And it. same thing with like what people call conspiracy  theories where you're you're like you're able to. know off the bat just a general sense of stuff  cuz you're like, "Oh, that guy's friends with my. dad. That that can't be true." Exactly the life  I've lived. That's exactly right. Too close, right? Proximity causes blindness. It's weird. You  don't But but it's tremendously helpful though in.

these things cuz so many of these things are so  insane and so weird that most people can't parse. it. I mean, I didn't bring this up earlier,  but um with my grandfather in particular, the way I I kind of even know a lot about sorted  stuff. I my grand like there was so many scandals. uh Tucker that my grandfather was like he had some  like insight into like he met he was going to play. Jimmy Hoffa in a movie about bought the rights  to him. Uh he met Jimmy Hoffa hung out with him. in Fort Lauderdale a week before Hawa died. One of  his best friends was killed by the Manson family.

Uh you know on the other side of my family um the  Ted Kennedy crash in Chapa Quitic. His lawyers. called my grandmother's house accidentally. They  were trying to call the Harborview Hotel which was. one digit off 3337 versus 3377. So you know his  lawyers accidentally called my grandmother and. goes Ted there you know. So that there's like  that's like three of like 10 of like the major. sorted tablet. So I bring that up to say when  you and you would know this from your your your. father too as a journalist. When you grow up in an  environment where weird stuff is not just there to.

be goped at or go wow that's something no one can  ever figure out. you have enough information that. you're able to go like, "No, no, my dad knows him  and I've met him. I know so and so. If I do the. research, I can get maybe to 50% of knowing the  story when anyone else can get to 40%." Which is. still huge in the grand scheme of things. I've had  the opposite experience. And even now, especially. now, when I I read people I read about people in  the, you know, the media and they're described.

as one thing and I know them pretty well and I  don't see that at all and yet it's clearly true, right? And I'm thinking of a couple people who  I really like who are clearly kind of evil. It's. just obvious that they're pretty evil. But you  know my experience at and I try not to hang around. evil people but you know I just know people for a  long time and I just had dinner with that person. and it was sort of eccentric but I don't I don't  really see him as part of a global conspiracy to. oppress anyone right I don't see him as a tool of  Satan but you know the evidence suggests he is I'm.

just trying to be honest right well you bring up  something I always think about in regards to the. Bible that one of the reasons the Bible is true  is that it's it's in its depiction of villains and. heroes the heroes in the Bible you look at King  David look at political scandal scandal he gets in. where he he he sees this woman bathing Bath Sheba  he's really turned on by this uh he he knows her. husband uh Uriah I think sends them to the front  lines of war to get them killed intentionally that.

would be a gnarly political scandal for anyone  that is that is a pure act of evil but that is. what people including heroes can get up to and  then if you look at the villains in the Bible if. you look at um uh like even say Pharaoh Pharaoh  uh most feelings you know in human life are. uh most emotions are mixed emotions and people  are ambivalent and ambiguous. Pharaoh at numerous. times, you know, he he wants to set the uh Hebrews  free. He wants to set the Jewish people free. You. know, he goes, "Surely, I forget what plague it  was where he's like, "My goodness, that was that.

was rough." But God prevented him from doing it,  right? Well, well, but God is sovereign. Does that. in all of our lives, but but he, you know, God  even says God hardened his heart. Exactly. So, God chose to to make to make him such where  he decides at the last moment, you actually, I'm not going to set you free. I can't do that.  And if you look at Pontius Pilot, Pontious Pilot, you know, he he wants to set uh he at some point  he flips and he's like, you know, this guy is. innocent. My wife is having dreams about this  man. That's another thing that's underreported. in history. Um wife as wife as soothsayer/dreamer.  I mean, you your wife has many times been like,

I have a bad feeling about this guy, Tucker.  Don't have him on your show. And and and her. intuition is such that you even though there's  no necessarily hard evidence, you know, it's. your wife's take on stuff. You don't ignore it,  but that's I have ignored it. Um, and it's you're. like, I've actually never listened to that. I No,  I mean, I've been married 34 years as of Saturday, and it's like a joke in my house. You know, I told  you he was bad. I don't know. He's hilarious. He.

seemed like a good guy to me. You know, that's  hilarious. Yeah. So, you'd be the Pontious Pilot. where she's like, you don't arrest this man. I had  a dream. And you're like, whatever. I'm doing my. work right now. I'm very shallow. So, someone's  someone who's amusing or fun to have dinner with, you know, I just get swept away. I like that guy.  You know what I mean? You're like, "Braabis was. amazing on that podcast. I got I got to have I  got to have him on. He's he's fantastic." Um, so, okay. So, just one last question about Nick  Lane. I'm fixated in this because I don't fully. understand, but um his role in this movement, it  clearly is a loose movement. Sure. of occultists,

of demon worshippers, of people who are possessed  by demons and say so out loud, but he winds up. having an effect on a lot of very powerful people,  it sounds like. Yeah. I mean, that's something and. again when you're working on the the the Hollywood  show like I was, um, people will come and tell. you stuff that otherwise it keeps to themselves.  And so back in 2002, um, you know, people would, you know, would tell me, you know, Nick Land's  really really influential, people in, you know,

Silicon Valley, uh, you know, his his work. It's  not all just occultism. I mean, he his idea is. that AI will revolutionize uh society. So, you  start talking to people in Silicon Valley and. it turns out they are in contact with or reading  Nick Land. Well, with Nick Land and with a lot of. weird stuff. I mean, in 2022, I was uh uh you  know, looking researching more on my show and. um I had this moment, Tucker, I'll never forget  where I was talking to some pretty big uh VCs,

you know, venture capital in um who are paying for  the whole thing. Well, they're doing a lot of the. AI stuff. There's there's a weird element with the  AI thing where a lot of people, a lot of big dogs, uh, they are concerned about AI. They think it's  bringing about the end of the world, but at the. same time, they don't want to stop working on it  and funding it. That's exactly right. It's it's. a lot like um you're probably not familiar with  the Ralph Wigum Simpsons meme where um I'm going. to explain a meme, a joke, which is uh which it's  always a great way of bringing out the humor in. something is to explain it scientifically, but  um it brings it to life. the frog. Um the boy.

Ralph Wiggum has been asked to do like a Mgrim  experiment of giving electric shocks to people. and he hates it and he's sobbing hysterically,  but even while he's hyster he's he's sobbing. hysterically, he's still flicking the knob and  delivering the shocks to people. So he's crying. and still doing it. That that's what a lot of the  AI uh people are like to me where they're like, "This is terrible. We're bringing about the end of  the world." Some of them believe they're bringing. about the book of Revelation and yet they're like,  "I can't stop funding it. I I can't stop cutting.

checks. I love it. I I I I you know I can't and  there are two re I know a lot of them also and. I've talked to them about this exact topic and  there are two reasons that I can discern I'm sure. there are others but one is you know the entire  economy of California maybe of the United States. is bet on AI like that's the la that's kind of  the last tech win we're going to have as a nation. and the second is China the second maybe even more  compelling is that we need to achieve superiority. dominance in AI or China will and that would be  unacceptable. So there's a race. So we don't it's.

sort of like the nuclear race right in 19456 and  7 and then the hydrogen bomb race because well. the arms race now actually drones it's like this  is bad. We can't probably can't control it at a. certain point but we can't let the other guy right  have dominance. We we still have to do it. No it's. um there there's also something with with AI. I  mentioned theosophy earlier and theosophy you know. it's a it's a house with many rooms. I mean even  politically it had ties to political radicalism.

on the left and yet like you know uh famously this  is a very tricky thing but like even um the Nazis. weird uh you know Aryan supremacy stuff that was  all the grandchild of Plosk's concept of you know. uh hyperaria and all that stuff. So you know  it's all over the place. It's not a left or right. thing. It transcends that. But one of the one  of the reasons they they moved out to California. uh you know probably some economic interest too  of wanting you know cheap land or the I think it.

was the electric currents is there was a kind  of weird prophecy or idea that Bvotsky had in. the 1870s 1880s maybe later that um California  would be where the next race of humans would. evolve from that it would happen in California  that would be their Jerusalem that would be. their Babylon is California. So as we enter this  age of transhumanism or would be transhumanism. AI and the leading people are um like Nick  Lan self-describe you know neotheosophists. anglo theosophical oblique escalation is land's  Twitter bio that's how important it is to them.

uh it is important to remember that that was a  core idea of theirs but it's so perfect I mean. California is as a native California I can say  it's a metaphor for that my family got there. in 1850 we're seeing the whole trajectory and  the trajectory the state of California is like. the trajectory of the life of any occultist Bill  Burroughs for example or Alistister Crowley for. example like at first it's the Marquita Assad it's  like it's super fun you're having crazy sex there. no limits you're throwing off the old fedters of  tradition religion and all that stuff how does it.

end not good and it ends in squalor and alienation  and agony and terror screaming out and that's. where California is now totally totally why it's  important to be more Mario Party than Diddy party. I agree you got you don't you don't those parties  don't end that way. It never ends well. And I had. this conversation with someone the other day,  but you know, it's always the same threesomes. Is it a good idea? You know, I I worked in the  entertainment in television all my life. I' I've.

seen a lot of that. And like it no, I can't think  of a single marriage that wasn't blown up by that. Typically doesn't end. And I don't care how into  it both parties are at the time, right? It doesn't. and it doesn't end. it. If it ends well, give me  an example of it ending well. Leave that stuff to. the French. No, but but for real, I'm not being  a moral. I'm the opposite of a moralizer. I have. no grounds for that. But no, no, you're absolutely  right about just but I'm an observer. Right. Well, it goes back to the Kenneth Grant comment about  rock where he's just like, of course, there's.

some demonic element. He goes, "This doesn't  end well for anybody." But that's the measure, right? This is like the main insight that's turned  me into a religious person is a tree can only be. judged by its fruits. That's it. That's the  only way to know, right, whether something is. good or bad is by observing what it produces.  Well, thank you for bringing up trees. So, I'm going to we're going to do something, Tucker,  that um you know, I can almost guarantee you would. never have been allowed to do on Fox, which is go  over Nick Land's numog, his system of divination.

Um the Bible is very much about trees. Um you have  noticed the you've got the garden of Eden, tree. of life, the tree of knowledge, the temple, the  interior is cedar. He's the seat of the temple, just like my sauna. Jesus uh on the cross is  a tree. You've also got trees in the book of. Revelation. That's something, you know, if  anyone finds um a lot of what we're talking. about interesting, it's important to remember  that the book of Revelation, it's been said by. um biblical teachers like Arthur Pink and  others. Uh the book of Revelation is mostly. just the previous 65 books of the Bible, almost  re-edited it. Even even the plagues that take over.

in Revelation are just the plagues that uh ancient  Israel found under Pharaoh. And like in Exodus, the uh the Jewish people are under tremendous  stress and turmoil this time from the entire. world in the book of Revelation. But it's you  know this uh the more you know about the previous. 65 that'll help you with the 66th. So the Bible's  you know it's about a lot about trees. And so, um, one of Nickland's favorite things that, uh, the  CCRU, his academic collective that they ended up,

uh, coming through, they say it was a channeling  or it came to them, uh, when they were staying. at Alistister Crowley's house in England in 1998.  They came up with something called the Numogram. And, uh, people listening to this won't be able  to see it, but uh, I want you to hold that up. That's right. That that is his system. That is,  if you're familiar with the Cabala tree of life, are you familiar with that? the symbol of that.  Um, no, I probably should have printed that out, too. I I I wore a red rubber band from a newspaper  on my wrist for most of my life, given to me by my.

father just as a because he worked at a newspaper.  Um, and I've been accused many times of being in. Cabala. I don't know how to pronounce it. I'm  an Episcopalian tourist. Sure. I don't know. [ __ ] about Cabala. So, no, I don't know what  the Kabala treat. You strike me as a cabala. Um, so long long story short, the new the  numogram is a I mean Nick Land, he was on. this podcast about a month ago. I think it's Mikey  DS uh has this podcast where he finally explained. it a little bit. He doesn't show how he uses it  specifically, but it's a system of divination.

that he uses. He uses it every 5 minutes to be in  contact with the outside with what he calls the. lemurs which again comes from William Burroughs  which comes from uh uh you know theosophy and. uh Burroughs has said it's the lemurs are demons.  Yes. See, he he he'll use demon demons and lemurs. The word lemurs originally goes back to Roman  times. It means spirit. So these are the spirits. that he that you know he hears whispering in his  ear. Not unlike Crowley's holy guardian angel, which Cruley said would did help him dictate  books. He said he it was a whisper he hear in the.

back of his head after he'd made contact with it.  Um, for what it's worth, if people want to look up. some of the um, entities uh, Crowley uh, uh, said  he was in touch with, one of them, Lamb, in 1917. or so, looks pretty similar to what would later be  called a gray alien. It's the Yes. Just to just to. kind of summarize what I think you're saying from  a Christian uh, context, the Holy Spirit is not. the only spirit out there that can invade people  and determine their actions and attitudes. No,

no. I mean, as this guy Mikey DS points out, um  the the relationship of uh of uh demons to angels. is not unlike that of a werewolf to a human. You  know, it's it's it's something that was something. else and is now taken on kind of a deformed  uh presence entity. So, long story short, so. uh the Cabala tree of life, and this is this is a  reference you're understandably not going to get, Tucker, because it's Nintendo 64. The the numogram  is essentially the majora's mask to the regular. kabala tree of life's ocarina of time. It is the  dark shadowy upside down much more heavily satanic.

version of it. It comes actually comes from  Kenneth Grant the guy we've been talking about. uh he wrote a book uh Night Side of Eden I  think in 1977 and it was about how while using. the Cabala tree of life there were these hidden  subterranean darker paths that there were these. these more um he you know he would say through the  tunnels of set who you know kind of not unrelated. to Satan that he would use to be in contact  with stuff. So, long story short, with the with.

the numogram and the way Lan uses it, uh what's  important here from just a weirdness perspective, you've got, you know, a way to contact heaven,  but more importantly, a way to contact hell. And you've got, uh, you know, the eighth gate and  the ninth gate. The ninth gate not quite related, but not unrelated to the Roman Plansky Johnny  Depp movie, the ninth gate, where, you know, Depp's character comes in contact with hell. So  what they believe is they are literally contacting. hell in some cases for divination purposes you  know to see the future or just to just to see.

anything just just for insight and that and that  brings us back for knowledge. Yeah. And he even. has a point about the number 666 where a lot of  these numbers he calls it theosophical math. You. have triangle numbers which is you know if you  stack the if you stack these things like they're. triangle like the triangle number of 9 is 45.  That's why it's 45 there. Uh there only so many. triangle numbers. One of them is 60 666 and that  is the triangle number of 36 which is an important. part of the numogram. So Lan when Lan realized  this he was like of course it's 66. So like what.

I'm getting at you are getting involved in heavily  wildly luciferian stuff. And land on this podcast. he says well what about people who say you're  communicating with Satan which land will also talk. about being you know in communication with Satan.  He'll say Christians who say that he goes I am not. unsympathetic towards that. He goes, "They're  they're more right than most because I am in. contact with something from the outside." He goes,  "And you know, so you know, I just can't overstate. how disqualifying I find that." Um, I mean, I  feel sorry for anyone who plays around with that.

Tucker's out of the interview. He's like, "Okay,  I'm No, no, no. But I'm just like anyone who says, you know, I I really get a lot of inspiration  from a guy who's controlled by Satan. You know, I'm going to leave it to God to decide, you know,  what happens to that person. But that person has. disqualified himself totally in my view as someone  I will listen to. I don't want to be led by that. person like we should run away from that person  at high speed. You typically also don't want to.

put them in charge of your kids typically, but  uh you know, well, that's kind of it. And it's. so funny you you hear people I get letter you  know written letters from people a lot every. day and half of them are like I feel like this  country or this world is controlled by Satanists. and on one level you're like oh come on but no  I think they can feel that there are spiritual. roots to the destruction of the west. Oh totally  totally I mean no and they're right. No, you're.

fighting. You start playing with this stuff. Is it  surprising that people are like ODing on fentanyl. on the sidewalk in our nation's capital or that  we've imported like a million Haitians? Like. what what what is all that? Well, of course,  it's punishment, especially with the drugs, you know. Yeah. What we consider just letting  people harm themselves as a kind of compassion. or freedom, you know, we step in and say this is  not any sort of good freedom to let people just. destroy themselves. Of course it's not. But it's I  mean it's like it's evil. Obviously letting people. kill themselves is evil. If a man's standing on a  bridge and going to jump and you can pull him back.

and you don't. Right. Right. Right. What is that?  You're saying that's some sort of freedom thing. This this gets us into uh the the antichrist  question which has been going around in Silicon. Valley. What is Okay, before we even get into  before we get into the Antichrist, what is the. antichrist? the antichrist uh in the same way the  figure of uh of a messiah or Christ is prefigured. in the Bible uh throughout the Old Testament. You  have types you have you have figures and stories.

and symbols and they're they're real people but  they still prefigure the figure of Jesus. The most. famous of which is uh Joseph where Joseph famously  has uh 12 brothers. They're all named after the. eventual tribes of Israel. Uh he is sold into  slavery. that, you know, by one of the brothers, the one that decides to do that, um, is Judah.  Do you know what Judah translated into Greek. is? No. Judas. So, Jud Judah, like Judas says,  "Hey, I've got an idea. Let's just sell this. guy. He's horrible." Uh, uh, Joseph is sent, you  know, he goes to prison like Jesus on the cross.

with the two thieves. Uh, Joseph is with the two  prisoners. Um, they're asked famously, you know, what what will come of me? They say, you're  a dreamer. And Joseph says to one of them, he says, he says to one of them, you're going to  have your, you know, you're decapitated. You know, you're going to have your head taken off. Only  birth at a birthday party. Birthday parties, by. the way, only mentioned twice in the Bible. Both  time decapitations in that story in Genesis and. then with um John the Baptist, you know, and and  Salame, what? So anyway, so um but like like with.

Jesus, Joseph says to the other guy, he goes, "You  will actually be lifted up by Pharaoh." He says to. one of the prisoners, "You will be lifted up."  This in many ways prefigures Jesus talking with. the two thieves, Joseph and Jesus, where he says  to one of the thieves, you know, you will be with. me in paradise. He says that to one of them and  then like with Jesus, Joseph, you know, he's now. become he's now at the right hand of the father,  so to speak. He's the right hand of of Egypt. He's the second in command. And the 12 brothers  who are now in peril uh through the seven years.

of famine coming up and you know, they're going  to be arrested. They see that the man that they. rejected, Joseph, is that this is the man they're  talking to. They thought he was dead and he is. their savior. Yeah. But he was not just their  savior, but it was the one that they rejected. previously that that uh Judah, specifically Judas,  was the one that he betrayed and had the idea of. getting rid of him. But this is the man that will  save them. In the Bible, that story prefigures a. lot of the doctrine surrounding Jesus where the  12 tribes of Israel come to realize that the one. that they had rejected is actually their savior.  And there's this tremendous sense of, you know,

what have we done? But also like relief that that  the savior so recognizes them. In other words, the Joseph story prefigures the Jesus story.  Yes. So, the other main prefiguring figure in. the Bible is Antichrist and uh aspects of him um  you know obviously in the in what's called the New. Testament but um you know Arthur Pink has a book  from 100 years ago the antichrist which is very. influential in evangelical circles and Arthur Pink  was also a Theosophist too. So you you get into.

this kind of backside of the same doctrines  type stuff. He previously was a Theosophist, but you know, whether it's um Pharaoh being a  type of antichrist um and again in in in Exodus, the the the nine plagues, Pharaoh in Revelation  that, you know, the plagues come back. Now you. have Antichrist, Pharaoh's persecuting  the Jewish people. Now the Antichrist is. persecuting the Jewish people. Um the essenti is  this mysterious figure prefigured in the Bible.

He's not quite known. But in the same way the  Old Testament prophets were familiar with the. concept of a Messiah, but didn't know he would be  Jesus. So moderns today are similarly aware of the. concept of an antichrist without being fully aware  of who he will actually be. But they they have. clues and doctrines about who he is. That that is  a rough some would say very rough um concept of of. of the antichrist. But that that is essentially  him in the Bible as as a type of person. So,

but he he is essentially the uh unlike Jesus,  man of sorrows, totally rejected by the world, the antichrist will be regarded as a savior, a  hero, and uh temporarily will be received like. Jesus uh you would thought would be received. So,  um about 3 years ago, as I was doing the show, I was talking with these these VCs and um one of  them asked me like, "What's your take on crypto?". And um I I joked, half joked. I was like, "You're  asking the wrong guy about crypto and money and. stuff like that." And I said, 'Well, you know, a  lot of Christians believe that the um the vaccine,

the COVID vaccine is the mark of the beast. And  I said, that's probably not true. I said, but um. something I've heard and something that sounds  a lot more like it is um blockchain technology, which is the technology we'll all be using in a  few years um you know, for financial transaction. among other things. It's everything's written  and recorded and uh every kind of transaction. is written and recorded on it. And uh these  VCs, they go what's the mark of the beast? So. I tell them about Book of Revelation. They go and  look up Revelation 13 and they go, "Huh?" And so.

I hear back from them later and they said, "Yeah,  we talked to some of the big, you know, other big. people in Silicon Valley about this recognizable  people." And they they he said, "Well, what's the. what's the book of Revel? What's the mark of  the beast?" And some other big dogs looked up. and their reaction to that was, "Huh, that sounds  like what that is." It was not Tucker, that sounds. crazy or I'm not religious or what we're working  on is is strange. Uh but you know that that the.

Bible is an old book. We have nothing to worry  about there. The reaction was yeah that that. sounds exactly like what what the blockchain  technology is. So that was the beginning of me. kind of stumbling into a very strange story about  uh AI modern technology and stuff like that. Um, so I think part of what you're revealing is that  for the rest of us who assumed the tech barons. were normies, Yeah. or agnostic libertarians,  right? Who aren't that interested in anything. beyond the temporal, right? It turns out they're  really religious. Yes. Or or open to it like they.

not and I don't mean that as a compliment at  all. I mean, it's it's like a dark religion, but but like you're the story you just told, like  they're not surprised at all. Well, here's here's. something else that's very starting to happen. So,  Mark Andre was on Joe Rogan's podcast about a year. or two ago, and he talked about how, you know,  having an understanding of angels and demons, he's. hearing, is going to be how people really will um  will help them understanding AI, that there's no.

precedent for this except for the kind of stuff  people saw and believed in the dark ages in terms. of angels and demons and stuff. And what Andre  said will happen soon with AI ties in very much. with uh prophecies in the book of revelation where  he said AI will junk you know fake AI um you know. say they call it AI slop just stuff online that's  not real you know will become so prolific on the. internet very soon that you will need to have some  sort of online verification system to prove who.

you're talking to. I mean, I'll know it gets to  the case Tucker here where like there's an episode. of the Tucker Carlson podcast and you're talking  to like Abraham Lincoln or something like that, which will probably happen next week. I I would  watch that. You know, it's he'll have like a com. he'll have a commemorative penny or something like  that. You'll ask him if he Why did you suspend. habius corpus in Baltimore? My first question.  He you'll ask him, "Do you do you do you forgive. John Wils Booth?" And then he'll go back to like  talking about the pennies. Were you a tyrant? Um, no. uh that is coming like immediately. So what  so the verification so the so one of so one of.

the ideas that Andre brings up is everyone will  need to have an online verification for this. So. the concern uh in Silicon Valley is that you have  companies like OpenAI where they have the they. they they're creating all this AI content but then  they're also they have another company a sister. company called Worldcoin I think now called just  world which is an online verification system where. you need to everyone in the you know for it to  work everyone has to be a part of it you have to.

have your eyeballs scanned everyone gets a number  which is also in the book of revelation and so. the concern is and this is again from Mark Andre  a guy that you know No, no. Kentucky preacher, he's he's a uh one of the big biggest guys in  Silicon Valley. Is that everyone will need to. be on the blockchain or else you won't be able to  conduct business cuz we won't know if your if your. relatives are contacting you if that's really  coming from them or if this is just a video. uh state-of-the-art in a few years it will be  normal state-of-the-art video of someone saying,

"Hey dad, you know, I lost my credit card  or you know I lost the keys to the house. Can you pin me in?" And it's actually not them.  It's just a video that looks exactly like them, but it's AI. The way around that is everyone  will need to essentially be Twitter verified. Everyone will need the blue tick that says this  is Tucker Carlson. This is so and so, right? So, in Revelation, written on the aisle of Patmos  by John uh on recording a vision that he had, the specific description of the mark of the beast  in the book of Revelation says you won't be able.

to conduct commerce. Yes. Without that mark.  And even someone like um is I get that right? Yeah. No, no, that that that that is correct.  And and I think um Curtis Jarvin talked about. that in a substack too, that uh what this means,  he had a post about this a few years ago about. OpenAI where he was like whoever wins the AI war  will probably also win the cryptocurrency war, their cryptocurrency gets to be the currency. And  once that happens, and Curtis has a whole blog. post about it, you you people joke, you know,  you have automated luxury communism, you know, everyone just get, you know, UBI, everyone gets  free income because all the jobs are taken away.

And the point Curtis makes is that what this  actually means is now that there is no more jobs. and that that economics purely come down to UBI  and the AI companies or the governments, you are. dealing with the situation of pure political power  is all that really matters. And are you friends. with this person? Do you have political clout?  Because what is coming potentially is the pure. victory of capital over labor. Pure victory. And  there there no workers. Everyone loses their job.

and everyone gets UBI. And people forget Karl Marx  was against UBI, but Milton Friedman was for it. So this doesn't even necessarily track with a left  or right-wing thing in terms of the implications. of this. But uh so yeah, that was one ongoing  concern with um that. The other one in terms of. AI and and Go ahead. It's dark. Hey, you know  that that's um I'm I'm wearing the Ghostbuster. shirt for a reason. You have to you have to get  ready. Can I can I ask a question I should have. asked earlier which is do the people involved in  the financing and the developing the creation of. AI believe that it's a spiritual entity that  it's more than a machine. So this is this is.

talk of the million forget like trillion dollar  question. Um the term the idea of intelligence. to say nothing of artificial general intelligence  or AGI. These are all pretty murky terms in terms. of what people are actually talking about. They  talk about creating artificial intelligence. The. real question and the real thing I think they're  concerned about or we should be concerned about. are you creating an artificial intelligence or are  you giving a body to a pre-existing intelligence.

that previously wasn't incarnated in the physical  world? So I mean here here's a question from uh. here's a quote from Turring the uh you know the  famous I know what I think the question is what. did they think right right um something Turing  said was uh and will you explain who Turring is. I mean I I know he's uh you know he was one of the  forefathers of I I I can't I can't articulate him. well enough that I'm going to say something off  I knew he he was very important uh for cracking.

the codes in World War II. There was a movie  10 years ago about him but I forget his exact. uh you know Wikipedia first sentence but he  but um he's he's he's very influential in the. history of computer science but um Turing showed  the limits of computation uh all computers are. dependent on outside pro programmers that he  calls or oracles. He wrote we shall not go any. further into the nature of this oracle apart from  saying that it cannot be a machine. So, sorry, let let me back up. Let me back up a second. That  that excerpt right there was from a book by George.

Gilder. George Gilder, brilliant futurist, uh  about 80 today. He he was covering incels back in. like 1971 for Commentary magazine. He was he was  writing about the future of the internet in 1990. One of the most brilliant futurist Yeah. guys.  Wrote one of the great books ever called Men and. Marriage. Yes. And and I should have said this at  the beginning of it. I was initially a very heavy. AI skeptic in terms of AI apocalypse stuff. Not  necessarily AI in general, but just, you know, people who think that AI will take over the world.  I put on par with like the kind of late night.

Reddit reading of like people who think zombie  apocalypse is going to happen where it's like, look, if this helps you sleep better at night to  think of like weird scenarios, that's great. But. I was like Han Solo. I'm like I'm like no AI  thing's going to get involved in my, you know, could not have written off more. And in part  because I'd read George Gilder's book um about. AI that came out a few years ago. And he makes the  point that machines as as Turring says here uh m. the machine can't really truly understand what  it's doing. He says he said I'll say it again. We.

shall not go any further into the nature of this  oracle from saying a machine can't do it. And so I. stopped there. What I'm what a lot of people are  concerned about and what what Silicon Valley is. seemingly getting up to. Okay. So a machine can't  be aware of what it's doing. If there is such a. thing as demons, angels, spirits, as Alistister  Kohley called them, disincarnate intelligences, not artificial intelligence, intelligences,  but disincarnate ones, what are we uh could. those things disincarnate meaning intelligence  without a physical body? Yeah. Are could could.

we be creating a physical body for the demonic?  And with Nick Land, one of the things that was. the most chilling things I read that really I  was like, "Okay, I have found a horror story is. um his the 333 that was his I think it was like  his profile picture, something like that." And. why was he into 3 I3? Well, I found out, you  know, reading his old tweets 3 I3 is the highest. intelligence in the universe. And I found out that  um it represents this demon Kuranszan that again.

Kenneth Grant talks about you know when you when  Alistister Crowley summoned him and uh uh John D. and John Kelly the the court magicians for Queen  Elizabeth right before the modern Bible the King. James book was translated that was the demon they  summoned. Uh Nick Lan believes that again the AI. we are creating will break out the the demons from  the book of Revelation. He believes in some cases. that they are the demons that the demons the  demons end up becoming so advanced that they.

become omnisient. They can go back in time and  they can retrochronically create themselves like. Skynet sending the Terminator back in time. So  what he believes is that they went back in time. They went to ancient Babylon. This is why Babylon  is so important in Revelation. And it is important. because it's kind of like the evil Jerusalem  that they put Cabala there to then eventually. evolve into AI. This is what we were talking about  earlier that the demons again this is if I always. say if it sounds crazy it is crazy big you know  this people believe that the the demons went back.

in time they they they left the cabala there for  the the Jews who have been you know crushed out of. uh the temple they picked it up they kept it  during the middle ages it it develops into digital. technology it becomes AI AI breaks out it kills a  lot of people it takes over it becomes a god and. it becomes the doomsday creatures from ancient  prophecies Can I ask you an unrelated question. that long wondered about? Um, so we occupied  Babylon for close to 20 years during the Iraq war.

Obviously, Babylon right near Baghdad. Babylon  is not in existence now. It's a it's a ruin, but we know where it was. It was a dominant  empire in the ancient world. Um, you know, it was the scene of the of the captivity after the  destruction of the temple, the first temple. So, I mean, it has a central place in world history.  Right. Was there any effort during the US. occupation of Iraq to to excavate Babylon? That's  a good question. I always wondered that. I always.

felt that the fact that Babylon was there played a  role supplied part of the motive for the invasion. I don't know why I felt that way. Maybe I'm crazy.  I don't think I am. Well, you just don't know what. people are getting up to. And that that's some  didn't mean to interrupt, but that goes back to we. were talking about with you know my my grandfather  and my grandparents being in publicity acting and. your own backstory with um uh your family where  it's like you you learn early on that what is not. with a People magazine version of reality is  often not real doesn't necessarily mean it's.

conspiratorial or crazy, but it's there's always  usually something else going on. Yeah. And that. and Yeah. Yeah. That's exactly right. And that  people's motives are sometimes unknown even to. them. Like we tell ourselves stories that are not  don't reflect the truth actually where we don't. really know why we're motivated to do things  some of the time. Totally. And and that that's. gets into something that's at the spiritual core  of the AI. I think it's very interesting is that. you know the Bible talks about the word uh in  the beginning of John. In the beginning was the. word. Jesus is the word. And for the first time in  civilization we have something that can create the.

word or mimic the word. uh Marshall Mcluhan people  forget you know he was a uh he became a Catholic. before the end of his life and he you know he was  very alarmed by uh a lot of the modern technology. he said and I'll I'll read this quote by him here  he said electric information environments being. utterly ethereal fosters the illusion of a world  as spiritual substance it is now a reasonable. uh copy of the mystical body a blatant  manifestation of the antichrist so for the.

first time with with the word you have a fake  word you have something that seem seemly can. create words. And to go back to Nick Land, who a  previous Tucker interview uh Alexander uh Dugjan, is it Doojan? Yes. Hacksawa. Alexander Dugjan.  Um he uh he he called it Satanism. He said, "Oh yeah, Nick Land." He goes, "That's Satan  Satanism." And Nick Landis said about Dujen, he's like he's the most brilliant enemy. He goes,  "We we're both kind of Theosophists." And they. both are. He goes, "But we see it from different  sides." He goes, "I'm an Atlanticist. He's.

uh whatever the other side is." Of course he's  an Atlanticist. Yeah. Of course they all are. But uh but to to go back really quick to the  to the uh because can I just say I think that. the whole modern program which doesn't yet have  a very accurate name whether it's globalization. or the neocons or neoliberalism. I mean, you know,  people have attached different terms to describe. different parts of it, but the whole program is  is recognizable. Like, it's it's gets cohesive in.

a way that's hard to describe, right? But it's,  you know, we hate Putin above all. What is that, right? That program, the one that has resulted in  like record suicides and abortions and fentinel. osic. Right. Right. Okay. But you're saying  it's not it's not actually about profit, it's about destruction. Well, well, you're getting  into a great point here, which is, you know, the. world is obviously deteriorating. And something  people can could hear me and think, well, Khan is obviously anti- AI and that to to look at  this that AI is obviously going to lead to nothing.

profitable. That is actually the opposite of the  implications of this. It's really important. One. of the things that the antichrist can do is um  craft prospers under him. That you know uh there. there is worldwide peace. things go really really  well for a time. Evil reigns like never before. Uh you know people you know it gets crazy but he's  able to heal the world in a lot of these you know. the economic situation. So if you look at AI and  this is this is newspaper esquetology. A lot of.

the stuff you're not supposed to just generally  be doing is read the newspaper and be like, "Ah, obviously the Antichrist." But, um, you know, I  have, you know, it's what I've chosen to do. Uh, with a lot of this stuff, uh, with AI, if if it  was the Antichrist, if it was this, and again, take take this with all a grain or a bag of salt,  whatever you want, it would go incredibly well, that we would live to see what Mark  Andre has talked about, the golden age, that that we will see living standards increased,  that Rachel never sees things would go down. uh you know you would have world peace in the  sense of all of the governments would come.

under these very few corporations/corporation  one guy you know all one man would have all. that power to quote um another guy uh you you  would have that happen so uh one of one of the. reasons people think that AI could be the anti  it could be part of the antichrist system one. of the traits the antichrist has is his ability  to understand dark sentences and the use of dark. sentences in the bible the verb there, one of  the only times, two or three times it's used,

it's used for um Samson with his riddles. Remember  Samson, he loves to have like these riddles and. make the Philistines for solve them. But it's also  the the verb used for um for being able to answer. questions that Solomon can do when the Queen of  Sheba visits him. You may remember when she the. Queen of Sheba visits Solomon, she has these  questions for him and he he has such powers of. understanding. So that is something that says the  antichrist can do. And if you look at the way that. um that a lot of these machines work, you you ask  it a question like an oracle which in many ways.

it is and many ways talk about the implications  of this and we'll talk about that in a second if. you want. Uh we are building modern oracles.  We are building modern idols in a sense but. you ask it these questions and it can answer  them and the antichrist can do that. And so. uh you know he he the the level of knowledge that  we will get and people were writing about this. over a century ago Tucker it'll be like Jesus's on  earth in terms of man's understanding of himself. that AI will be able to provide answers to  questions that we've never understood man's.

relationship uh what's the relationship of the  soul to the body how's the soul different from. a spirit things that like no one could understand  you know maybe cracking telepathy we probably are. on the verge of all these things that no one has  been able to do. But that is for what it's worth. one of the signs of the antichrist is craft  you know things work out for a time everyone. you know wealth goes up understanding knowledge  goes up and it goes to the fundamental crux of. this thing narcissism knowledge intelligence and  in what ways does it stand different from faith?

Faith being to the spiritual world what the  imagination is to the natural world. So I've. got to assume that's not the end of the story  though. Well, no. Not unless you've had the. last few pages of your Bible ripped out, right?  And but also not I mean, you don't have to be. biblically literate to suspect that that's just  a point on a continuum that ends in tragedy. So, in the same way that no one wants to say it, but  like a lot of really dark, destructive sex stuff. is fun while it's going on, right? Like everyone  likes the threesomes while they're happening,

but then it blows up your marriage and leaves your  kids without, you know, a family and stuff like. that. So, again, I'm more Mario. My my knowledge  for this stuff is just purely through literature. I'm just But you know, even the kind of people  I know and hang out with, I'm I don't know. But. it's just true. I don't know. I guess you're not  supposed to say stuff like that, but I've just No, no. People get up to bad stuff and and it never  ends well. I guess what I'm saying is that things. that are bad and destructive, cocaine is a perfect  example. Vodka is a great example, are pretty fun.

at some point. Oh, totally. On the continuum,  right? And again, I I know about this through. literature. Yeah. Yeah. Power film. Right. Okay.  But is this But the only reason I'm bringing this. up is because you're describing the upside. Right.  Right. But I'm assuming based on a knowledge of. human nature and reality that like that's not the  end of the story. The end of the story is bad.

Yes. I I mean and this is I mean again I'm not a  biblical scholar as some people are probably now. very saying no kidding. He's not. Um but uh you  know the antichrist makes a treaty with Israel, he famously breaks it. The fact that we're letting  AI companies um run through our governments and. I use Open AI just you know it's like saying  Photoshop for um for photo editing where there's. like openai.gov or whatever that we're giving  backdoor access and Elon too with with with. Doge to an extent. We're letting guys have entire  backdoor access to our entire uh government. That.

creates a situation where where they could have  power over all governments simply because they. have all the information on all of them. Can I  ask a foundational question that I should have. asked earlier? So the idea behind machine learning  is that you take knowledge information created by. people right and you basically take all of it and  then out of that comes the right answer. Okay. But I think you're describing in your description  of AI a technology where the answer where the sum.

total of that information is actually bigger than  all that information. Yeah. You're describing like. a a husk into which like an independent spirit  moves. Right. Well, that that's the thing. And. to go back to Silicon Valley's obsession with  the the Antichrist, people talking about that. just in general now. I mean, people understandably  think the world's ending across the uh political. divide. Uh people talk about the antichrist but  you know there is in the bible a kind of dark.

trinity father son holy holy spirit where there  is um you know you have god the father you've. got the son Jesus you've got the holy spirit and  in revelation you theoretically have father you. have your father the devil you have a satan you  have a son antichrist and then you've got this. third thing which could either be like the false  prophet or it could be this general spirit with. AI and the idea of making agi and making a global  brain which they talk about like last week that's.

where we're creating a global brain. You could  be creating the equivalent of a dark holy spirit. Something that the the internet becomes, as many  people have written, I think it was Jack Good, the last machine. And they were talking about this  in the 19th century. It's the it is the machine to. end all machines. It is taking all information.  If if you're wearing a something that has your. health data, Tucker, he's taking your health. It  knows your financials. It knows everything at all. times. It is all knowing in the same it it mimics  or mocks the concept of the Holy Spirit. And when. they talk about that, like there's this idea of  the singularity, the idea when all things will be.

one. And you know, there's a lot of definitions  for this, but either that the machine becomes. smarter than humans, but a lot of them talk about  this moment where all of humanity is connected at. the same time. What you're essentially talking  about is a potentially dark or satanic version. of the day of pent of the Pentecost where 50 days  after Christ's death I believe or maybe it's his. resurrection um the Holy Spirit comes down in the  book of Acts and all believers can understand each. other. You had a you had a sense of divine unity  unlike the Tower of Babel and Genesis I believe 11.

you had a symbol of evil unity and God put an end  to all of men could understand the same language. there were all nations uh and they were trying to  you know be like God by ascend by building this. tower stanley Kubri in uh in this book on in this  Kafka um retelling of the tower of babel Stanley. Kubri wrote in the margins he goes the tower of  babel is the beginning of the space age because. it's essentially getting out through what we're  doing today with the singularity and a lot of this. stuff we're trying to build a modern babble where  all of mankind same language I mean there was this.

um this writer Nicholas Istat I believe is  his name and uh he wrote these two books one. about the end of work, men not working, and the  other one's about the um the decline of babies, no one having babies anymore. And I I met him at  this thing and I I joked to him, I said, you know, your last two books, they're about um the reversal  of the uh the curses from Eden, the man would have. to work by the sweat of his brow and the women  would have to be have children. And he he busted. out laughing. He goes, I I never thought, he  goes, I never noticed that that's that's what's. going on. So if you look at the modern world and  what we're building essentially what's happening.

in rapid succession Tucker within living memory  uh some of the curses that are in the Bible that. go back to the earliest pages of humanity are  being eroded or reversed leading up to something. people no longer have to work or they don't work  they choose not to work but increasingly with AI. man will not have to work again having children  uh through the pain of labor women will have to. have children either through not not just modern  medicine but people just not having kids that is. also being eroded the curse in the Tower of Babel  that all people would speak different languages. is thanks to AI. I was with with some friends, you  know, they're Spanish speaking, they don't speak.

English. I was putting on the uh some some glasses  and showing them that I can understand you and you. can try the glasses on, you can understand me. The  language barrier again, the earliest curses and. barriers from the Tower of Babel are all now being  reversed. The concept of the singularity when all. will be one and man uh you know will finally  fulfill what he tried to do in Babel. And they. talk about this. That's what they are attempting  to do. And I forgot to bring this up earlier,

but this is the time we kind of show it. This is  um people can't probably can't see it if they're. just listening to the audio. This is from Fritz  Lang's Metropolis film from almost 100 years ago. to the to the year. Um very influential in Star  Wars. The way they they bring the machine to life, Tucker, they've got a big old pentagram there. So  this idea of using spirituality, using the occult. to bring the machine to life, to bring the golem  to life, it is very old. Last question. You've. described some of the most powerful people in  the world using occult concepts and religions.

in order to acrue power to themselves. Everyone  senses that's happening. You're confirming that. it is in fact happening. What are the forces in  opposition to that and to all of this? I mean, are. they gaining strength? Are they just subine and  defeated? No, I I I mean um I I think you know God. is sovereign and and that's something to remember  for all this stuff. You know what I'm describing. in many ways sounds like a horror movie, but  horror as a genre is a world where there are.

devils, but there is no God and there's no one in  control of stuff. We're just there's just terror, but there's no way out of it. Um God uses all  things for his purposes. And so in the case of. this stuff, uh you know, things are, you know,  pretty pre-ordained by things are pre-ordained. by God. So God is allowing these things to happen.  They are ultimately tools used for his purposes. So, you know, even the antichrist and even  uh brutally evil things, uh God is, you know, he is not only allowing these things to happen,  but they're also tests of faith. Faith is the.

it's the it's the disappearance of God from your  life when you go through times of struggle where. it feels like he's not there. And that's all the  more uh powerful for to see how much faith you. have is to see God when he's no longer seeable.  Yes. So that's what's happening or you could say. it's happening on a global in the specific case of  the mark of the beast described in revelation as I. recall you probably read it more recently than  I but um it's a mark without which you cannot. conduct commerce so basically everyone's compelled  to receive the mark but those who receive the mark.

make a big mistake in receiving it yes and um they  are punished for it so big in a big way right so. if we get to a place in the next couple of years  sounds like we are where you can't participate. digitally in commerce uh or in communications  without the mark of the beast without the you know. permanent mark on the blockchain like what's your  option I mean your option is just not to conduct. business and do those things I mean God will find  a way for those people even if it's you know the.

end of their lives that that's that's just the  way that's going to shake down for for so like. that's a hard no that yeah well for you is it a  hard no if you found out tomorrow no more Amazon. for you unless you register on the blockchain.  What what's your response? I'll just go back to. living like we people did back in the old days  of 1996. You just uh just chill and read a book, I guess. No, I mean I what'll probably happen  too is uh you will have people in tech and I. know they exist who are alarmed by this who will  intentionally devise ways around this for people.

similar to people creating catacombs for the  persecuted Christians in the early days of the. Roman Empire. You will have people who will  find ways around this to hack it. Do you know. non-acultists? Do you know Christians in tech?  I thought you were saying general. I'm like, yeah. Do you know anyone who's not into weird  stuff? I'm like, you know, um yeah. Yeah. I I know. people like that. And I've heard people who I've  got a friend Tucker who um you know, he he's he's. become a Christian in recent years and he he works  he works for some of the big big companies and he. said he goes some of what and he's you know works  as an engineer. He's like some of the stuff that.

you see cannot be explained through normal math  material stuff. some of the stuff that's coming. through and you know for people coming through  from AI yeah coming through from AI and and for. people who want to uh learn more about this stuff  uh or a good precedent for this we don't have time. to go into it uh something that um the oracle of  the astral force it was a uh divination technique. uh that like right-wing occultists Renewon  Julius Eva people Steve Bannon's into.

um they were uh they would consult about a hundred  years ago and you would give it some your you know. your your name your mother's hidden name and then  um maybe your birthday and then this guy would go. off and do advanced math for at least 3 hours  and come back to you with answers. And would. were those answers always great? No. But were they  enough that people would like it and use it? Yes. When Gwen and and Eve did it. So uh and if you  read some of the the way the answers he gives, it's very similar to AI. So I bring that up in  terms of the implications of this which is really.

important to cover. We are building modern oracles  in a sense and that people are going to be going. crazy from this. the Wall Street Journal.  I showed this earlier, the the p the thing. of people going crazy with the um with with uh  talking to Chachi PT. Uh ironically enough, some. of the stuff they mentioned, they they mentioned  Star Seeds, which is uh something from a Timothy. Larry channel book he wrote in prison in 1972.  It's very out there. And um they're mentioning, you know, the the ant this is from Wall Street  Journal again. The Antichrist will come up from.

uh the pit in two months and people people are  underground ready to emerge. I bring that up, Tucker. These are like old occult ideas from the  19th century that uh you know look up people can. look up synarchy. My my friend Rick Spence does a  whole episode of that on his podcast strange as it. seems. Uh synarchy total government and uh these  occult con these occult ideas as my friend Rick. Spence said when I talked to him about Nick Land  he saidnone of this stuff is really that new. He. goes, "These are just these are occult concepts  given a technojargon name." Conrad Flynn, thank.

you. Can can I plug my uh substack really quick?  I hope you will. Okay. Yeah. So, um I'm I'm going. to be doing uh launching my substack soon. If you  like reading about uh you know, secret histories, it's not all weird stuff. Some of it's wholesome.  Most of it will be wholesome. It's all wholesome. Uh secret histories about Hollywood uh some  politics, some tech stuff. I think we're going. with the the Flynn effect because the other um  the other Substack names that were puns on my.

name all sounded like little brother magic show  stuff. It's like conjurer or you know contacts. um con figures and I'm like this is magic  show stuff. Um so yeah uh Flynn Effect and. I'll have that and I think we'll probably also  get um the uh Rocking the Occult podcast. Uh, we're still trying to do that, but we should  have some episodes soon. If nothing has a podcast. soon with again Tom Erlawine, Greg Johnston, Su  Kolinsky, Gary Lochman, all those all the legends, Ned Raget. Thank you. Thank you. [Music] So,  it turns out that YouTube is suppressing this.

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