Ryan Salame: Facing Prison for Donating to Trump, His Journey With SBF, & Why the Banks Hate Crypto

so I feel like kind of an idiot um as. someone who is watching from afar this. case that I it never really occurred to. me that the way it was prosecuted would. be determined by politics but of course. because the justice system is inherently. political now it's openly political and. we're in an election near where Trump is. running so um I was interested to note. in reading about it and in our breakfast. that we just had um that you were not. indicted and you're about to go away for. seven and a half years to federal prison.

but not for financial crimes. fundamentally for campaign Finance. violations and so in one sentence let me. tell you the overview from my. perspective correct me if I'm wrong here. you have Sam bankman freed who's in. prison for a long time but he's not been. charged with any campaign Finance. violations he gave it to Democrats he. helped get Biden elected you gave to. Republicans and you're going away on. campaign Finance violations is that. that's correct that's correct correct. okay.

[Applause]. [Music]. [Applause]. [Music]. so I I initially assumed the justice. department was not sort of a political. organization and you know cuz I was new. to DC I hadn't been around that much and. you grew up in this country correct I. grew up in this country and you know you.

you try to have faith in the system you. try to have faith in how it all shakes. out but I I'm now realizing that it is. incredibly political but you're not. going to prison for making up a fake. cryptocurrency or defrauding investors. No in fact the justice department is. sort of specifically noted and stated. that they know I was not aware of the. central fraud so they introduced some. evidence some testimony during Sam's. case that showed right up until the last. minute Caroline Ellison was lying to me. and to the rest of sort of people at FTS.

and Alam um about funds being stolen so. um that what I mean again I'm coming at. this as a non Finance person just as a. reader of the news but I thought the. crime at FTX was defrauding a million. investors using investor funds for. things like real estate right completely. agree that that is the crime that. occurred that's the crime but that's not. what you're going to prison for correct. they you know in uncovering that crime. they manufactured a lot of other crimes. and intent behind them that is just not.

there and never existed so the two. things that I've plad guilty to are. operating an unlicensed money. transmitting business and campaign. Finance fraud the reality is the. campaign Finance fraud is everything. that they wanted and then they sort of. found some other things to lay at my. feet and put pressure on me with so um. let's just go through them what can you. describe what the first crime is yeah so. you need a money transmitting license to. operate a money transmitting business in. the United States uh every transmitting.

moving money from one place to another. moving yeah essentially moving money one. place to another um I actually when I. arrived at Alam I went to our lawyers. and questioned whether we needed money. transmitting licenses or not because I. had just been at a company um that had. money transmitting licenses so I knew of. these licenses and where they were. relevant and I got very specific legal. instruction from you know good lawyers. that we did not need money transmitting. licenses and those licenses are bestowed. by the federal government I assume yeah. that's correct and State governments as.

well okay. um okay so that's one running an not. getting a license a government license. to move money from one place to another. correct though I will note that the. company that I ran was we didn't touch. us customers there was a separate us. division that did touch us customers and. they had money transmitting. licenses okay so how could you be. indicted for. that it's I mean it's a great great. question certain even if we needed mtls.

I was not a lawyer I sought legal advice. um you know the lawyers that sort of ran. the company ran regulation ran the. licensing noted that this is was their. responsibility um but it has been laid. at my feet so you're accused of not. getting a a US government license to. move the money of non- US citizens. correct how can that be a crime I I've. yet to have a lawyer explain to me why.

we needed MTL. licenses okay all right um interesting. uh this is just sort of blowing my I. mean even when I was considering doing. this interview I was saying well FTX bad. fraud bad we did a whole documentary on. why FTX committed fraud and why they're. bad which I still. think um and I just didn't know that you. weren't charged for any of those crimes. and I don't think that most people. reading the news coverage of your pleas.

would understand like if you're just. following Bloomberg News or Reuters. would understand that you were never. charged with the crimes that FTX is. famous for yeah that that's correct I. think and you know that's a big part of. why I'm here and why we're talking about. it um but you know there's a lot of. misconception around many aspects of the. case well but this isn't in the realm of. opinion these are just the facts. publicly available facts like what. you're you were indicted for what you. pled to what you're being sentenced for.

like those aren't opinions those are. verifiable facts yeah that's correct and. none of these charges are in any way. defrauding any individual or taking. money from them or stealing from them. you know I had 98 is% of my net worth on. the the platform if I thought Sam was. stealing money I I would not have left. all my money on FDX it wouldn't make any. sense um okay so that's you you. committed a crime that doesn't seem to. be a crime logically but whatever uh and. and then they the campaign Finance.

violations the campaign Finance. violations are because I borrowed money. from Alam which was Sam's company that. he owned private company no investors. all just lent money but I borrowed money. and then I went and did a lot of things. with that money and one of the big. things I did was get involved in. political contributions right um but you. know I also bought like a house with. that money I I lived off that money so. the sort of the real story there is when. I decided to get involved in politics. and take a lot of money off of the FTX.

platform I again went to our legal. council and I said look I'm going to. sell off a large chunk of the money that. I have on the platform uh this is. various crypto tokens this is I think I. had some Equity I was looking at selling. I was I was going to cash out. essentially um and the lawyers advised. that that is not the way to do it the. proper way to do it would be to borrow. the money against these Holdings um it's. a tax advantageous strategy uh it's not. a crime it's how most people borrow when. they have sort of a large pool of equity.

um it's how a lot of prominent people. get money out um and I would say right. around 100% actually yeah well the. lawyers advise it you know you go to. lawyers you don't want to get hit on the. gains because correct correct it will. eventually be taxed it's it's just but. you've got a low basis. onu you know right you took possession. of these assets when they were worth. much less than they're worth now correct. and so you borrow against it to cash out. correct and then I use a bunch of that. money to get involved in the political. system so but I just even before we get. to that I just want to confirm that that.

is not not only is that not unusual that. is the standard correct for people in. your position correct I happen to know. that so yeah yeah and accountants advise. it lawyers advise I mean it is you know. what you're told to do 100 that is 100%. true yeah um whether you agree with our. system our tax system it doesn't even. matter that is what everybody does. legitimate people so um okay so then but. the problem that you ran into arose from. the fact that you use some of that money. to give political campaign contributions. correct okay so what did that consist of.

um I believe in total I donated about 20. to 30 million um throughout the cycle uh. to Republican candidates okay um so. anywhere from your packs to individual. donations to specific candidates up to. the I think it's was. 2,800 um limit and what percentage of. that money went to Republicans 100% of. the money I gave went to Republicans. I've always been a republican um yeah. it's just the party that makes the most.

sense for a plethora of reasons at this. point right but those it's consistent. with your beliefs it's consistent with. my beliefs it's rare to be I think Young. in Tech um and a republican so it's a. lot of why I you know got involved um. but. yes at the same time Sam bankman freed. famously was contributing to politicians. as well correct he was running yeah he. was uh giving primarily to Democrats. though he was doing some dark to. Republicans as well um how much did he. give to Democrats.

I don't remember the exact numbers I. want to say we're close to 60 to 70. million in total wow yeah okay so one of. the biggest donors in the cycle I think. he was second or third yeah in the 2020. cycle that's correct um and he has not. been indicted for campaign Finance. violations that's correct he was not. indicted on the campaign Finance. violations only two of us got in trouble. for campaign finance and that was nishad. Singh who was part of the central fraud. and. myself H so he gave publicly anyway to. Democrats you gave to Republicans much.

less but you get indicted he doesn't. that's. correct H how do you think that. works I you know I've I've I don't. understand how all of this works anymore. so I don't know what to what to say to. that but it's strange especially. especially since um you know he was the. central political figure sort of this is. yeah um huh.

[Music]. what was your crime exactly my crime was. they accused me of being a straw Doner. for Sam bankman freed so I was only. doing I was taking his money and. spreading it out um because it was. borrowed from Alam but it was your money. though well it was borrowed against my. money and it would have been my money. had I not gone to the lawyers and asked. them the appropriate way to to take. money out yes okay so I mean is that is.

that I'm just confused by the concept A. little bit if. I you know if my net worth is mostly. borrowed which is in the case that's. true for a lot of people Y and I donate. to a political campaign is that a straw. contribution it was in this case it was. considered a straw cont have you ever. heard of that before no no I mean the. the sort of the thing I have to wrap my. head around there has to be a why right. you have to ask why for for anything I.

don't know why I would make something a. crime that didn't need to be right it it. doesn't what does that. mean like if I had just sold off my. crypto and contributed the way I. initially wanted to and planned to there. is no crime but because I sort of went. listened and borrowed the money um the. way I was advised to they've now turned. it into a straw donor. scheme so it doesn't seem to make any. sense these charges actually.

yes I I would agree with the fact that. they don't and I was you know I was very. close to going to trial the governments. came comes up with creative ways to get. you to not go to trial um and they came. up with a very smart way to get me to. avoid trial which was what uh they told. me that if I plad guilty to these two. crimes they would not pursue my loved. ones and looking at anything that they. had done or investigating them your. loved ones yeah the mother of my child. is she a criminal no no absolutely not.

but I mean you know as well as I an. investigation can destroy your life. regardless of whether you're innocent or. guilty so they threatened the mother of. your child in order to get you to plead. to things that were not self-evidently. crimes correct what did your lawyer say. my lawyers were pretty surprised by it. they were they said this inducement was. incredibly strong um not something that. they had ever done when they were. prosecutors and not something that they. had expected um. um you know they said it's it's up to me.

I mean I they present all the. information to you it's a very odd. process for anyone who's never gone. through an investigation which I assume. is most people you never speak directly. to the prosecutors it's all through. lawyers who then give you sort of a. readout of what's going on um you know. and they lay out your options right so. if I went to trial it was a jury in uh. New York um I'm a republican. heterosexual white male had accumulated. a fair bit of money the the jury's not. going to love me already um so they did.

the lawyers tell you that yeah they lay. that out you know the lawyers will tell. you that even if you're completely. innocent it is hard to win a trial the. government has all of the because of. your demographic profile demographic. profile and the government controls the. entire narrative you know people are. scared no one's going to get up and. testify in my defense they're scared. that the government's going to go after. them if they do um you know this is a. big problem I had with Sam bman Freed's. trial I'm not saying he's innocent by. far but you know I watched it and. thought had I you know I if i' had been. on the defense for him a lot of that.

stuff was just not accurate the way they. were describing it but no one got up to. counter any of the government's. narrative because then you know you get. threatened with more time in prison like. you say one wrong thing on the stand in. defense of someone and they will get you. for perjury or your lawyers will tell. you this so um I flirted with the idea. of being on the defense for Sam not. because I thought he was innocent of of. everything you know that they accused. but um there was no one up there. providing a counter narrative to this.

narrative that the government had spun. up and that's not how the justice is. supposed to work um so I I note this to. my lawyers and the lawyers you know said. you could face an extra 10 years for. doing that like do you really want to. sort of risk that um you know it was. clear Sam was going to lose ultimately. and and I'm not saying that's wrong but. um it's not the way the system is. supposed to work you know the government. hands get out of jail free cards if you. parir it the narrative that they want. and then the you know everyone who would. provide any Counterpoint is.

frightened it's just. it's that's not Justice it's an odd. version of it it's not an American. version of it it's not the point of our. whole American system on it um you know. trial is also going to be 10 to I think. was 8 10 12 million U most of my money. was gone locked up on FTX so um you know. I was operating from substantially less. means than I had before um you know I. don't know how anyone I don't know how. anyone does it and you can't just go out.

and get a job no can't go out and get a. job I mean I'm not going to make $10. million overnight to defend myself so um. you know and the inducement I think was. the ultimate decision maker I mean. putting the mother of your child in. prison right I mean you can get me to. plead guilty to anything if that's on. the table so your lawyers were explicit. with you about that they were explicit. yeah yeah they I mean they explained the. government's careful right I mean I'm. I'll say that I think today or tomorrow. I'm going to file an appeal um to my my. guilty plea um because the the.

government has now continued to pursue. uh the mother of my child despite uh. saying that they wouldn't if I plad. guilty so I'm going to use that an. attempt and appeal wait so they got you. to plead by. threatening the person you. love um with indictment and so you plad. on the basis of their promise that they. would not indict her correct not even. not indict investigate they would drop.

the investigation or any investigation. into her if I plad what did she do wrong. we uh we are not married currently um. and we shared finances and uh so they're. accusing her of also a campaign Finance. fraud violation um because our finances. are co-mingled and. intermixed huh so um so your lawyers. told you if you do this you're basically. doing it for the mother of your child um.

she will not be hassled they'll leave. her alone that's correct I mean and they. went further than that they sort of put. her her case into Cold Storage um which. you know they they didn't have her um. plead the fifth during times as she. should have she's also going through a. sort of difficult divorce proceeding. which is why you're not married which is. why we're not married so um you know she. should have pled the fifth during things. for that everyone thought the. investigation was dropped into her. because of this inducement and then what. happened uh and then we found out uh I.

don't know a few months ago that it is. not um they have continued to pursue. investigating or they don't acknowledge. the inducement as being real um and. they're going to charge her the. inducement being their promise not to do. this correct on the basis of which you. plad guilty correct to crimes that are. not actually crimes correct right and. then so they said they wouldn't hassle. her and then once you pleed they. indicted her anyway correct well yeah. year a year later year and a half later. why do you think they did.

that I don't know it doesn't make any. sense to me so I mean just if you zoom. out a little bit if you lie to a federal. agent that's a felony yes but if a. federal prosecutor lies to you that's. fine that's correct um and I think they. know the public narrative around FTX is. so terrible you know that the they. control the narrative right no one talks. to the media more than the prosecutors. in the government even though they sort. of lock people up on the other side if. they talk to the media the government. sort of controls the narrative publicly. right so they know how bad the FTX story.

is and how little the public wants to. even think about any aspect of it. anymore um so I think that emboldens. them to just sort of do whatever they. want how much should you spend on. lawyers in this process I've spent five. or six million in total so far um on. lawyers correct so those lawyers made. five or $6 million from you correct and. yet they brokered what seems like the. worst plea deal like in the history of. plea. deals yeah I mean they sort of counted. as a victory I wasn't charged with the.

central fraud even though it they. countered as a victory it's fall in the. Northeast and that means gr season I got. up at 5 a.m. yesterday to take my dogs. out to hunt for some rough grous and. before I left I went to my safe to pull. out my grandmother's 28 gauge yes my. grandmother was a bird Hunter where do I. keep that treasured possession I keep it. in a liberty safe for over 355 years. Hunters have trusted Liberty Safe to. keep their firearms safe and secure and.

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safes in your cart use the promo code. Tucker at checkout for a great discount. that's libertysafe.com. Tucker promo code Tucker at checkout for. a special deal in October which by the. way is bird hunting month with Liberty. Safe you are always protected was there. any suggestion that you could be charged. with a central fraud no in which case I. would just being honest with you I would. have much less sympathy because you know. if you're D in a fraud that defrauds a.

million people like that's on you no no. a lot of the government or a lot of. sorry not a lot of the government a lot. of people just think everyone at FTX was. involved in the fraud right there's this. public idea that 100% of the employees. the people of the company must have. known and everyone should go to prison. um yeah people feel that way for sure. yeah but there's no hint of that in your. case there's the opposite there's. literally Caroline Ellison who was sort. of the central to this entire thing. saying we lied to Ryan right up until. the last moment this came up in spf's.

trial um there's messages related to it. of me messaging her Caroline Ellison was. the girlfriend of Sam bankman freed yeah. and the CEO of alam research put her in. yeah how is she in prison she's not yet. she's a cooperator with the government. she's potentially going to get no jail. time no jail time um but we don't know. yet it's up to judge Kap but there's no. qu judge oh judge Kaplan so there's no. question that she was involved in had. knowledge of the fraud correct correct. she gave gave a uh interview sort of to.

the company you know right after it. collapsed noting that it was her Gary. nishad and Sam that sort of orchestrated. this large um theft or use of customer. funds in an inappropriate way okay but. she's as far as you know not going to. prison you're going to prison soon. correct for seven and a half years. correct and there no one's even claiming. you part of the fraud but this chick who. has admitted being part of the fraud is. not facing prison we don't she might go. sometimes she's certainly not going as.

of right now as of right now correct. what do you think of. that you know I I don't know what to. think you've reached some level of Zen. acceptance here you sort of you enter. this Twilight Zone in the whole process. you know where like reality isn't a. thing anymore and you either cope with. it or you go mad so um coping with it. now what about um so Sam bankman freed. so you just listed the officers of the. of the company but Sam bman freed was.

heavily involved with his parents both. attorneys one's an Ethics Professor I. believe correct um who seemed remarkably. sleazy on the B I'm just judging from. the from the emails that came to light. greedy pushing for more money more real. estate whatever um and then his brother. Gabe have any of them plad guilty to. anything no no one else was charged. outside of the Central 4 and myself and. now you know Michelle so none of the. bank freed family has faced any legal.

consequences from this they're not. that's correct or any of the lawyers. that advised a substantial amount of. this I mean in both of my fact patterns. the lawyers were heavily heavily. involved you know they. make I forget if it was my lawyer that. said it but it's he said you can't go. ask your lawyer if you can shoot someone. in the head have them say yes and then. shoot them right that's not a a. defensive you can't say the lawyer told. me I could do this so I did it but I. don't know what the point of the lawyer. is then right if I go to the lawyer and. say is this sort of. MTL legal or is this campaign Finance.

what thing we're doing legal and they. say yes you know what am I just supposed. to be a lawyer like this is their. purpose this is the whole reason like. you know you go to them or you talk to. them or you ask them these questions so. um it's. frustrating to be in trouble for things. that you genuinely try to do legally and. feel like you went the route you were. supposed to to do them legally also I. mean if you you know if you're getting. indicted for not having a US government. licens to transfer the funds to people.

who are not US citizens outside of the. United States like that's insane like. who would ever imagine that you would be. indicted for that it's correct yeah I I. couldn't imagine I mean could I I don't. know could the FBI arrest a driver in. Abu Dhabi for not having a US driver's. license like I I think at this point the. government just does whatever it wants. anywhere in the world I think you're on. to something I think you're getting. warmer there Ry um wow okay so just. because I it's just very interesting who. gets punished in this and I'll just.

confess my ignorance once again you know. I read spfs getting 25 years in prison. that's a long that's hard time I feel. feel bad for anybody facing 25 years in. prison but it's like kind of case closed. right at that point justice has been. done but I don't see how his family. escaped indictment I don't get that yeah. I mean I don't want more people in. prison I'm not saying you do but I mean. I don't know how a lot of people of. avoided this and I don't know how I.

ended up in the hot seat um you know. it's the it's the Republican donations. for sure at this point um but it's very. strange and disheartening so what did. the lawyers tell because seven and a. half years I don't want to rub it in I I. feel so sad for you but that you know. that's real you know it's not six weeks. in the drunk tank no that's correct and. it is more time than even the prosecutor. is requested um so the prosecutors push. for 5 to S years uh we push for 18. months the sort of standard Playbook is. typically you know they'll split that.

down the middle um 7 and a half years. was more than anyone asked for except. how did you wind up with. that you know the the judge read me a. whole statement um he sort of indicated. tell us who the judge was it was Judge. kin he had just finished with Trump's uh. I think the Gino Carrol case I think. that was a week after um you know he. spent the first half of the comments to. me talking about how he disliked. citizens united so I knew I was in. trouble at that point what did were you. involved in the citizens united decision.

no no and it's and it's legal to be. clear so once it started there though I. knew we were off to Citizens unit is a. Supreme Court decision correct you did. not argue that before The Supreme Court. correct you didn't work for Citizens. United correct what does that have to do. with you that's the beginning of you. know him talking to me he goes into a. lengthy discussion about how America's. losing faith in its political system you. know I you know what he was trying to. say um who is this guy. he's a judge he's been on the bench a.

long time judge Kaplan I this is all I. know about him uh you know throughout. the The Plea process they you know my. lawyers told me what Kaplan really cares. about is acceptance and responsibility. if you want to minimize the amount of. time that you're going to serve the most. important thing is to just get up take. responsibility Own It describe how you. are responsible apologize say you'll do. better going forward so we didn't sort. of that's all I did I I made this whole. you know apology speech and everything.

and I'm genuinely sorry for all the. customers of FTX so there's not nothing. there um you know it's a real you know. what happened to them is horrific and. haunts me daily um but uh you know in. front of that that's sort of the the. whole speech we put together was geared. toward that but Kaplan sort of grabbed. all these things that just weren't true. and started lising them off to me right. so he said I ran to The bamian. Regulators to save myself that's not. true The bamian Regulators emailed Sam. and I asking what was going on Sam was.

busy with the collapse of the company so. I got on with the regulators and told. them what I was learning about in real. time um but sort of the judge spined it. that I ran to The bamian Regulators to. save myself um I did manage to withdraw. some money from FTX um it was before I. knew that it was going to be file. bankruptcy um so everyone else's. withdrawing I'm I also withdrew a little. bit just enough to cover legal fees cuz. I had no money in the bank um he twisted. that is me sort of getting out before.

all the customers I think he said you. know your point was to hell with the. customers I'll save myself but may I ask. you weren't charged with that correct. that has nothing to do with the charges. you pled to that's correct so that's. like saying you know you were drunk at a. dinner party 3 years ago and I found you. obnoxious therefore more jail time for. you like what does that have to do with. the the crime yeah the the whole thing. was odd the whole experience of that's. insane he said this in open court yeah. this is this his final statement to me.

as he you know was about to tell me that. I was going to do s and a half years um. you know he described me as part of the. Mastermind behind this campaign Finance. fraud scheme that we were all involved. in um you know which is crazy uh I it's. tough to I mean you stand there you're. listening to this you can't say anything. why um it's the court you know you're in. the courtroom you're there to listen and. then he gives a judgment you have to. Fain respect for people judge Kap of. course yeah don't I have no respect yeah. sorry um wow so your but your lawyers.

sounds like did not prepare you for this. at all no the the lawyers expect I mean. they do the maximum was 10 it was 0 to. 10 it's up to the judge almost. indiscriminately what they want to do. but the standard procedure here would. have been to basically split the time we. requested and the time the prosecutors. requested and at worse what the. prosecutors requested um it's almost. unheard of to go above even what the. prosecutors want. did your lur apologize to you no they.

don't they don't AP I mean they always. they're always caveat in their. statements right it's always it could go. this way it could go that way this isn't. an exact science um were any of the. lawyers at FTX charged with anything no. really it almost sounds like a system. designed by and for the benefit of. lawyers I'm just kind of throwing it is. 100% a system designed for to benefit. the lawyers I mean all of it is um you. know the bankruptcy team's about to take. a billion dollars in fees. um for a company that has enough money.

to pay back customers that doesn't mean. Sam did nothing wrong but there is. enough money in this whole system to pay. back customers 120% and would have been. even more um had a number of sort of. more intelligent things been done um but. the lawyers got to the Troth first and. just stole the money themselves they. take it I mean they keep describing this. massive mess of organization with no. accountants no nothing I mean that. wasn't true there was a whole accounting. department the the accounting department. was hiring more people and the company's.

only 3 years old was only 3 years old. and just had meteoric growth from. basically the beginning so hiring people. was a catchup you know every week you. try to hire someone you got to interview. them they got to come you know you're. now week behind in work there there was. an attempt by every Department that I. was aware of involved in to hire good. people and build out real can I but but. you're describing the aftermath and like. how do we make the investors whole the. the this whole Scandal is predicated on. the fact that investors were defrauded. they lost their money because the money.

was. misused that that's the core allegation. that's the crime right right so the. injured party is the investors correct. and or the users of FTX who had their. funds on there right right but the. people whose money was taken by FDX for. okay but the lawyers wind up with a. billion dollars yeah and then all of the. individuals lawyers that we've hired um. but why would why would they get a. billion dollars that's in bankruptcy the.

lawyers typically make out the. bankruptcy lawyers make out phenomenally. well um you know they kind of have. indiscriminate ability to do whatever. they. want you're acting like that's normal. this sounds like a disease bankruptcy. law is wildly. horrific um and it benefits just the the. parasites the lawyers correct and they. also have the power to intimidate a lot. of people I mean a lot of people aren't. speaking up about the FTX situation. because they're still waiting to settle. with the bankruptcy estate um and so the.

bankruptcy lawyers in conjunction with. the government keep everyone. silent and by the way as you just said. no lawyers were indicted so like all the. hyenas are on the same team it feels. like yeah it's a it's a pro it's a. systemic issue um that you know I don't. know how it gets addressed so how. involved again my knowledge of this is. just purely from stupid wire stories on. it but how involved was Sam bankman.

Freed's family in this very involved um. his mother was only involved on the. political side uh how was she involved. in the political side she ran her own. political organization I think it was. called mind the gap um and then his. father was involved in the company um. was part of hiring lawyers was part of. advising on tax treatment um you know. yeah his father was heavily involved so. the mother was using FTX money to help. Democratic politician.

correct but that's not a campaign. Finance. violation I I don't know what you want. me to. say it's just it's. so it's just C. it just parenthetically it's just one of. those stories and I've seen so many in. 30 years where you have these. perceptions because you don't really. know anything beyond what you know you. saw in a headline or in the first four. graphs of the New York Times story and. then when you press a little bit into. the details it's something totally.

different from what you thought it was. or what you were told it was and it's. like a complete scam that benefits the. same people always you know the lawyers. the Democratic donors the Democratic. politicians and the people and you know. a tragedy like this tragedy for the. investors is hijacked by these. institutions for political reasons I. mean that that's what I see after. talking to you this morning yeah it's. yeah no it's it's terrible to be part of. I mean you're you're losing everything.

at once and then you know this whole. narrative is being spun up around you. that you have no real control over um. and then it just becomes your reality or. you go. crazy well I'd probably go crazy I think. yeah I'm I'm bordering on it I you're. following my expost I'm I'm I'm right on. I'm right on the edge of Sanity yeah so. what um and tell me and then I want to. ask about your life and how you wound up. in all of this but um Gabe bankman freed. who's he uh Sam's younger brother yeah.

and he was actually the one who. introduced me to getting really involved. on the in politics um he was running a. pandemic prevention initiative that was. actually it was a decent idea um you. know Co was ridiculous the shutdowns. were insane the whole way it was handled. was wild but and not great but what we. saw was like a single you know thing. created anywhere in the world will just. spread everywhere and we are clear not. prepared for anything of the matter so a.

real biocurity threat the government's. not prepared for yeah um and you know Co. was I think a joke and I'm sorry to. anyone that lost anyone but for a global. pandemic Co was as light as it's going. to get but that doesn't mean there's not. the potential you know for an actual. bioweapon that's for sure um and so his. initiative was to sort of put in place. preparations for that now get text get. testing of future vaccines now um create. sort of you know in the United States. not externally um to prevent these sorts.

of things going forward that seems like. a fine idea it a brilliant idea there. was hundreds of millions of dollars of. unspent covid dollars that were just. sitting out there this was a great use. for them you know they'd already been. allocated it's not new spending um it. was a brilliant idea um and it really to. me it was very it real altruism you know. there's a lot of people that do a lot of. fake altruism like this was a great idea. so this is actually what drove a lot of. my uh Republican giving he sort of got. me excited about. um helping with this from the Republican.

side so and then that was all twisted I. mean that was all turned into I was only. giving to push crypto policy United. States um which is just not the case at. all oh was he political yes yeah yeah he. had a whole team there was we had like. there was a massive team of strategists. of campaign Finance Experts of. everything lawyers a. partisan um no one's not really they're. associated with the Democratic party I. think because he was because of his. mother um but they're just strategists.

was the mother partisan do you think. yeah yes yeah pretty liberal yes yeah I. mean they're West Coast Stanford you. know yeah and just I've never met Sam. bankman freed but I look at that guy I'm. like you've got liberal parents no yeah. for sure there's no doubt about it um. okay amazing how did how did you get. invol what's your background how did you. get involved in this uh the whole. company I mean yeah yeah so I started as. at ernston as a tax accountant at a. college um really yeah yeah yeah I I got.

incredibly excited about Bitcoin early. um I but you were a tax accountant I was. a tax accountant at ernston Young yeah. wow that seems like a very non zany. job polar opposite really yeah yeah um. no I went to UMass Amherst and then fell. into accounting there because I was good. at it and then you know fell into the. job at ey because I had sort of I work. hard and yeah push myself forward um.

yeah so I but I found and discovered. Bitcoin and I fell in love with it I. thought it was one of the coolest things. I'd ever discovered um I thought you. know in a world. where trusting people doesn't always. work out as I've learned uh trusting. math does work and the whole system is. built on math working so I thought it. was amazing This Global transfer Network. that works as long as math works that. can't be sort of perverted in its base. core brilliant I thought it was. incredible um so I started publicly. talking about it on LinkedIn this was.

the time that LinkedIn was becoming a. big deal um and a crypto company in. Boston that needed an accountant uh. found me and asked me if I'd go work for. them what what company Circle so they. run usdc now um which is a stable coin. uh they're one of the sort of older. stable coin companies um and they were. one of the original companies to have an. app that you could buy Bitcoin like a. sort of venmo but that was I think 15 or. 16 so you go to work for them as an. accountant uh I go to work to them as. someone who's Bridging the trading desk.

and the accountants so the accountants. have no idea what the Traders are doing. because they don't really understand. crypto or sort of right uh looking at. the network very well or the exchange. data and then you know the Traders don't. want to deal with the accountants. because they're making a butload of. money trading and no one cares of course. everyone makes fun of accountants right. so I bridge the gap between those two uh. I helped them sort of reproduce a full. record of transactions that had happened. starting in January um it was a. absolutely insane amount of work um but. the trading desk was pleased because.

then they could pass audit um and they. brought me on the trading desk fulltime. hm in Boston in Boston yep and then they. moved me to Hong Kong because it's uh. crypto markets are 24/7 so they moved me. to Hong Kong to uh sort of run the not. run the desk but work on the desk. overnight um and that's where I. eventually met Sam huh what how did you. meet Sam bankman freed Sam was at a. conference um and he was it was just out. Al research at the time and he was Alam. research was headlining the conference.

with an exchange called binance which is. the biggest crypto exchange and no one. had really heard of alam but for binance. to be willing to headline a conference. with these people they had to be a big. deal right because binance is not going. to let some small irrelevant firm. headline a conference with them um and. so I saw Sam speaking on stage I got a. meeting with him um and just you know I. knew he was going to be successful what'. you think of him he's I mean he's. brilliant um he you know he's autistic.

sort of very autistic um but all he. wanted to do is work me autistic he um. social situations are harder for him. than the average person um he doesn't. sort of I think he doesn't have an. emotional spectrum that most people have. yes um he you know eye contacts. difficult uh things like that sort of. the the the human elements of the world. don't make a lot of sense the internet. digital uh you know money-making math. world is all that makes sense to him and.

he said he's a hard worker 247 slept on. a bean bag you know we used to have to. tell him to go shower CU he would start. to smell we would buy him new shoes when. they'd wear out you know the interesting. thing how did he respond when he told. him he he had to take a shower cuz he. stunk he's fine he he knew he couldn't. do these other things and sort of you. know people took over there was almost. like a really like a brotherly feeling. for you feel a little bad for him when. you meet him um um initially just. because you know you know it can't be.

easy living like that uh you know you're. brilliant in one world but you don't. understand you just forget to take a. shower just didn't. care interesting yeah he all he wanted. to do is work 24/7 365 it's it's like he. needed it to keep going privacy is not. an option it's a human necessity it's at. the core of Freedom no privacy no. Freedom if you can't have privacy you. are owned by someone else you're a slave. and so the question is who has in 2024.

more privacy the average American or the. average North Korean well unfortunately. because of technology in many ways the. answer is the average North Korean has. more privacy the average North Korean is. being monitored less than you are and. the reason is really simple you're. carrying around a phone and a laptop and. the government and big Tech can and do. track both of them endlessly again and. again we've seen that companies and. governments are not afraid to use the. data they glean from you to manipulate.

you what you purchase what you think. even how you vote maybe especially how. you vote so how do you get your privacy. back well we use a product called a VPN. a virtual private Network and the one we. use is called. expressvpn expressvpn reroutes 100% of. our internet activity through secure. encrypted channels that means that no. one has access to our online activity. the original promise of the internet was.

freedom freedom to receive information. and to express your own views you don't. have that now but. expressvpn gives it back to you go to. expressvpn.com Tucker today to get an. extra 3 months free that's. expressvpn.com Tucker to get a extra. three months completely free. expressvpn did you get uh when once. again I've never met him but um watching.

video of him he seems like he's on. Aderall or something he seems impaired. by Pharmaceuticals in some way yeah he. had a very strong anti-depressant patch. um I believe it was called an mam patch. um that he had that he would put on his. shoulder um and then there was Aderall. around the office mafel around the. office what's MAFO it's like a kind of. like an Aderall slightly different. Aderall um I think it was used by like. uh War Pilots to stay awake or something.

like that um yeah there was there was a. ton of that stuff it's very common in. the tech World a lot of you know most of. I would say most of the generation sub30. has a a bunch of friends that need ater. all to operate you know there yeah there. was a a time when it was handed out like. Candy by doctors I mean I they're still. attempting to put most kids on Aderall I. think that show any sort of inability to. sit and focus 247 um so Aderall. is if you've sort of worked in companies.

in the tech World Aderall just doesn't. seem strange I I'm not saying it's a. good thing it just math I mean it's. chemically indistinguishable from math. yeah but they gave it to kid I mean they. were given it to they went when I was. younger they tried to put me on Aderall. and my parents thankfully were like no. he he's just a little boy you know he's. just got energy because he's a boy and. it but it has all kinds of effects on. the brain that you know some are. positive. you know more mental acuity Focus.

sharpness all that stuff energy um but. some of them are are are very bad over. time yeah did you notice the effects I. didn't I've maybe taken it once or twice. no but in the office if you're working. in a world where people are you know. everyone's on speed all the time people. get jumpy paranoid have trouble. maintaining Focus paradoxically yeah I I. don't know if I know I mean Sam was. always odd since the moment I met him so. maybe he had sort of had a longterm of. it um but no I I don't think I noticed.

that I mean there was so much work there. wasn't a lot of like communicating. around the office it was just sort of. 247 jamming keyboards answering things. online I mean we always at every minute. in time for a year I had 80 hours worth. of work that could be done wow I mean it. was you know it's a 247 Market you got. someone like Sam was working 24/7 um you. can't hire fast enough um the people you. do hire get burnt out immediately or you. know decide they don't like it if you. take time out of your day to hire.

there's now a pile of work that's piled. up that you haven't done um yeah I mean. there was a couple months early on being. there that I don't think I saw daylight. every you know I'd leave in the dark and. come back in the dark seven days a week. um it was fun though you're building. like a phenomenal amazing company in. this Cutting Edge industry the Market's. taking off so people are you know. getting wealthy um it was fun I didn't I. didn't even think of it I'd look at the. calendar and oh my God you know there 60. days have gone.

by um so what about him when you saw him. on stage made you want to meet him he. was speaking honestly so a lot of people. when they present I mean you don't know. this because you seem very honest on. stage but a lot of people when they talk. on stage don't tell the truth they sort. of for sure that's for sure they parrot. this narrative that isn't real if you're. actually in Industry so you go to these. crypto conferences and people get up and. say these ridiculous things you know. aren't true uh Sam got up there and told. the truth he said you know this. company's good this company's product.

doesn't actually work yada yada y he. would just say that up on stage and I. thought this is great well I agree with. that that is great yeah so you go meet. him he hires you he um he was reluctant. to hire me because I was I think at the. time more useful for him at Circle so I. was still at Circle we were doing some. OTC trading with his OTC desk uh but I. eventually what's OTC over the counter. trading um it's just large blocks that. don't hit the exchange NE you just lock.

in a price you message someone and say. hey I want to buy 100 Bitcoin sell 100. Bitcoin they give you a price you agree. or don't agree and then it moves to. settlement um that's what I was doing at. Circle and then I eventually got Sam to. hire me to run that at Alama um I had. also purchased a lot of his ft token. which I think helped um so he had. launched a token for the exchange he was. going to build called FTX um sent it out. to see if people wanted to invest in it. and I was I purchased a large quantity. of it how much um I God like six million.

tokens maybe at the time at what. valuation five. cents where'd you get the. money well I just held crypto for a. while um and I'd made good money at. Circle as well so so you you get hired. by Sam y to do what and where do you go. so I'm in Hong Kong he recently moved to. Hong Kong I get hired to run the over. the OTC desk for him. um and that's what I. did for how long my job constantly.

changed there um so I think I probably. ran the OTC desk and I had you know at a. at a startup you pick up as many jobs as. you can right so sort of anything that's. lacking you you try to help out with so. um I ran the OTC desk but I was also. helping you know get customers on FTX. customer support for FTX when people had. issues um you know I was involved on the. banking side uh because I had the. relationships you know a lot of these. nerd type characters don't speak to. people well and I did speak to people.

well so uh I took over a lot of the. relationship based work the designated. talker in the office yeah yeah I was. sort of polar opposite of all these. people um yeah so I took over a lot of. those responsibilities I worked was. about a year in that position um and. then I was totally burnt out um I'd made. a lot of money with ftt going up um and. so I that was the first time I went and. tried to quit um or sent in a. resignation letter and what happened um. Sam sent me back this sort of incredible.

letter about how he didn't want me to go. I could do whatever I wanted basically. you know if I'm working too much drop. some of the. responsibilities um I told him no I was. still leaving but then I went in to have. a meeting with Caroline actually and she. started crying um that I was leaving and. it I don't know it was very sad you know. she was working 24/7 I think she knew if. I left she was going to have to take. over all my work I'd never seen her cry. before and so she started crying I said. fine you know what if you can stay and. do this I can pull it together and stay. and and do this so I didn't leave in.

2019 um I tried to cut back my the work. you've had some time to replay this in. your in your head bet you oh God I'm. sorry yeah yeah all of. it um yeah I tried to pair back the work. I was doing but it's hard you know it's. if you care about something it's hard to. to do less um you know you know things. are being dropped you don't want them to. be dropped dropped so you you know try. to do them.

um yeah what was Caroline Ellison like. she's an interesting per you know the. what are they all like so first off the. effective altruism which we haven't. touched on yet it is. this very like Silicon Valley West Coast. Elite parent concept that you this group. of people have that they're smart enough. to solve basically all the world's. problems and the best thing you can do. with your life is work as hard as. possible to give all the money away. which on paper doesn't sound terrible.

but there's a lot of things on paper. that don't sound terrible that are in. the real world like socialism for. instance yes um so that's the EAS and. that was the center core of the company. that was Sam Caroline Gary NAD were. effective altruists and that's what. drove everything in the company that was. the center nucleus sounds like a. religion cult cult religion yeah very. much so so work as hard as you can to. make money in order to give it away yes. to these big brainy ideas that you know.

AI or pandemic was I guess one of them. so but not to the housekeeper correct. correct I don't even know if they value. individual life that much to be honest. with you it's it's it's a weird the. effective out thing was weird I hated it. um why aren't you a good person yeah. yeah yeah but there's no one's smart. enough to solve all the world's problems. and the moment you think you are you're. the not the solution yeah that is deep. and probably nothing truer has been.

uttered today that is absolutely right. the moment you think you are you are the. problem um so how did it manifest itself. this effect of altruism well you always. knew it was the sort of Guiding Light of. the company and you if you weren't an. effective altruist you were never on the. inside really right like it was they. were sort of in charge of everything. um and you know you sort of orbited. around everyone else orbited around them. um I guess is is how to describe it and. would they talk about it they would um a.

little bit if you were there at like 2: a.m. or something um you know they would. be having a conversation about it um. yeah they love talking about like weird. weird things like that like AI taking. over the world or all those sort of. things were they for AI taking over the. world they were uh well so there's. different factions of EA I learned um. some are concerned about it some are. welcoming it um and want it to happen. sooner um. yeah I yeah but the core idea is were.

the elect or the elite were the people. smart enough to fix the world's problems. correct um how are they going to what. problems are they going to fix and how. are they going to fix them it's a great. question so AI came up and was a big one. a lot um you know Caroline had this. nutty you never know it's true if. they're saying these things or they're. just saying them to hear themselves say. them but she had this thing where she. was con convinced AI was going to take. over the world and it was best to.

appease the AI Lords now so in the. future they won't kill you when they. kill off all the rest of the humans um. so this is things she'd say like who are. the AI Lords I don't know you're talking. about someone that avoided this as much. as possible but I was just occasionally. sitting there I mean. really uh. yeah so this is a theology obviously. yeah it's a cult I think cult is the. only way to describe it really. so you have to appease the AI Lords so.

they don't kill you while they're. killing everybody else this is one of. the Nutty things that they would come up. with yeah did did SPF agree with that do. you. think I don't he was definitely EA he. was this extreme effective altruist I. don't know how he felt specifically. about some of the weirder AI things um. was he in a like personal relationship. with Caroline Ellison yes it was very it. was kept very quiet for a long time. um but then you know I knew her roommate. at the time and he told me um that they.

are in a relationship. but it's like not a relationship like. what you're thinking of I mean these are. people that only cared about working um. you know no one's going on dates or. having like long Sunday mornings in bed. yeah none of that stuff I it was was she. had an infatuation with powerful men she. blogged about it a lot um she always. wanted to be around powerful men and so. I think she saw Sam as a powerful man um.

he was a powerful man yeah yeah and so. she wanted to be around that she liked. one thing we bonded over I love the. musical Hamilton I don't really like. musicals but I think that they just did. a phenomenal I don't know if you've seen. it no it's Hamilton's great they did a. phenomenal job with it and she always. used to quote that she just wanted to be. in the room where it happens which was. like this Aaron Burr scene you know he's. singing I want to be in the room where. it happens um and so that she always. identified with that she just wanted to. be in the room where the important. decisions were being made huh she a. power worshipper yeah she was a power.

worshipper and very open about it really. yeah like I'm a power worshipper she. blogged about it all the time she would. write these sort of blogs online they. were public they were part of uh sf's. trial in case and so I mean the you know. Daily Mail among you know other the. lower forms of the media ecosystem you. know made a big deal out of the sex. lives of everyone at FTX that they're. like living in group sacks or no no. there's no way I mean I didn't live with. them but I knew these there's no way no.

way that they were having crazy group. sex no no I I think the Amish were. probably having more fun than what was. going on in that P house good well. you're making me feel better because I I. don't want to be catty about it but you. did see some of the players and you're. thinking they should not be mating no. yeah yeah I mean I think part of part of. being this sort of West Coast you know. enlightened thing is like polyam is an. okay idea right they try to wrap the M. themselves up into that because that's. the cool sort of elite intelligent thing.

to feel yes but none of that was going. on there a lot of them had monogamous. relationships they did all door there. were about eight people I think in the. in that Penthouse um but no you know the. media grabbed all sorts of fun headlines. because that's what it does and runs. with them I mean that's what media is. now right it's just grabbing totally. good. headlines um you know a lot of the story. and I I want to caveat this with a ton. of people got hurt lost their life saves. over a million people these are normal. people who don't have a lot of money who.

are trusting it all in FTX so I want to. caveat with everything I'm saying here. you know what FTX did and what happened. to people is horrific um and I have to. live with that every day but a lot of. the story is just completely been. fabricated or or made up did you ever go. to the penthouse where they all lived. yeah so Sam I was first in the Bahamas. so we didn't get to the second time I. tried to quit which was 21 I finally. said look I'm finished I'm working too. hard again I have some money I'm going. to go enjoy my life I'm 27 I think at. the time um you know I was in Hong Kong.

at the time and I was so I was like I'm. done and you know I keep blaming the. lawyers but again I go to the lawyers. and I tell them I'm done uh and they. said well can you do us a favor um you. know we know you still care about the. company which is true but you know the. Bahamas had recently launched the D act. uh which was a you know sort of a. revolutionary digital asset regulatory. framework um it was a better. jurisdiction than a lot of the sort of. other jurisdictions that do that it's. not considered an A+ but it's not you.

know sort of a a terrible jurisdiction. right um you know they have a real. regulatory body it's not as. sophisticated as you know a European. country or the us or Japan but it's not. nothing um but the CEO needs to live in. the country to be regulated there and at. the time there was absolutely no way Sam. was moving the company to the Bahamas so. um why we it's an island nation it has. strong sort of you know they don't want. you importing labor they want you hiring. locally there's not a lot of housing.

it's a it's an island um small island. small island it's you know there's not. 24/7 food options there's not there's. none of the infrastructure in place to. run an actual large International. Organization out of out of the Bahamas. it it was impossible it was always going. to be impossible but that was not the. plan the plan was I was going to go. there run a small sort of shop I hire. you know some local people uh did some. philanthropy there went through the.

regulatory process um in the Bahamas. what's that like it was fine so we were. working with The Regulators to sort of. educate them as well they were eager to. really understand and learn about the. technology and they were slowly adapting. and building out the framework um but it. was it felt real it wasn't just sort of. you know this rubber stamp like they. wanted to know what was going on how it. was being operated what the different. components of crypto were how it was. changing um you know it's seen I think. to the world as like this. fake sort of place and Regulatory.

environment but didn't feel that way um. at all like you know we were educating. they were putting in place standards. they were trying to make them workable. but also. monitor um but I'm only there I'm there. about two months and I'm basically I'm. quasi retired I'm working like two hours. a day you know we're doing the. philanthropy stuff I'm getting it all. settled there but everyone else is in. Hong Kong running the company during you. know business hours there um I'm free. and I'm having fun it was a great place.

to live I was in a beautiful. Community um yeah it was great and then. two months later Sam visits and I'm. sorry I should have asked what and. what's your job title at this point I'm. CEO of FTX digital markets which is the. Bahamian subsidiary yes um titles didn't. have a lot of meaning at FTX and Alam um. they were kind of tossed around like. candy to be honest it was you either you. work hard or you don't your title. doesn't matter um you know as I write a. laundry list of regrets um accepting a. title that had no actual an important.

title that had no actual real meaning at. the time is is one of them uh for sure. um but Sam visits uh and decides to move. the entire company there um basically. overnight he wants to import hundreds of. people from all over the world um into. the Bahamas to build out a headquarters. there um I tell them it's not possible. people aren't first off people aren't. going to be happy right these are people. leaving cities vibrant cities they're. most of them are young uh some did have. families but you know they want a social.

setting where they can go out to a. nightclub or go out and meet people at. whatever they do the Bahamas is quiet. it's you're not going to get that um so. you're going to get they call it Island. fever um so I told Sam it's impossible. to move the company there nothing was. ever impossible in Sam's mind you know. it was just like let's get it done um. and so all of a sudden I'm back to. working 24/7 only now I'm working in. like the real world we're buying condos. to House people in were you know. bringing in people to cook 24/7 so there.

was food available were modifying the. structure of buildings to house more. employees um yeah I just it became. Mayhem how much do you think FTX spent. on real estate in the Bahamas uh half a. billion to maybe 750 million million how. could you spend $750 million in the. bahamon real estate I mean there so. there's two types of real estate. basically there's very little middle. class in the Bahamas you have sort of. this ultra wealthy section of the island.

which is mostly people from foreign. countries avoiding taxes and then you. have sort of the impoverished section. which is um downtown n which is downtown. right um we couldn't put employees in. downtown Nassau um and so the available. housing was extremely limited um we also. were worried about security um and food. and all these various other things so we. ended up pivoting towards one of these. sort of large very um wealthy areas. called Albany um they knew we were.

buyers of a lot so they would up the. price very quickly um I actually begged. at one point I begged Albany to stop. selling Sam real estate um but they just. obviously ignored me because they were. making you know an insane amount of. money um but a house in Al might be. worth4 or $50. million 40 or 50 million yeah yeah. condos were I think 15 to 30 million on. average oh so it's just totally fake. money at this point like that FTX alamer.

spending yeah I mean if you're spending. $15 million on a condo in the Bahamas I. mean that's just absurd it's untethered. from physical real should have been more. of a red flag I mean I can try to. justify it there's not great. justifications we made just so much. money at Alam when I was there I mean we. made unfathomable amounts of profit at. Alam um that relative to what we' made. at the time that I was aware of that. didn't seem that crazy and hindsight now. it's absolutely effing ridiculous excuse.

me yeah but you know when you witness a. company make two to three billion. dollars in profit in a. year it just didn't seem you know sorry. it shouldn't have been happening and I. didn't want the company in the Bahamas. in the first place so there there's that. but it didn't seem crazy that that money. was available to be spent on the basis. of like what was if if you pardon a dumb. question what what was the money for. like what what were you providing that. you were making 2 billion in profit in a.

year yeah you were buying and selling. crypto I mean you know you can look at. some of the large headed hedge funds. what you know what value does Ken. Griffin provide uh you know he's what. value does Ken Griffin provide well he. moves the Republican Party toward. endless war I think that's a I just met. his business I just met his business um. as far as I'm concerned Ken Griffin. provides negative value to the world um. but the trading the trading Community. makes sure I'll be indicted at some. point for saying that but I think it the. training Community makes a lot of money. and you know what is the what is the.

purpose of buying and selling all day. long I don't know um yeah yeah help I. mean it does like Summer's over and it. is getting chilly and there is nothing. better for those chilly fall days than. the products made by our partners and. friends at cozy Earth and they make a. lot of different things sheets and. hoodies and towels and Leisure wear it's. incredibly soft and because it's made in. part out of bamboo Bamboo it gets softer. every time you watch it it is committed.

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ask tell them that you heard it from the. Tucker Carlson show you will feel the. difference warmer sleeping Better Living. better cozy earth.com. Tucker when I was a kid liberals who. have disliked my whole life I'll just. say that but they used to say like we. live in a world where you know teachers. and Carpenters don't make any money and. I oh shut up but now I'm sort of like a. little bit more sympathetic to the idea. that I don't know your Society should. reward people who do useful things yeah. no I'm not I'm not knocking.

that I'm with you but we were the money. was coming in and people want bu when in. the middle of it it's hard to ask the. meta questions because you're in the. middle of it right yeah right uh it's. interesting though so they did I mean. did you think it was weird that you were. making that much money profit I mean. that's more than General Motors makes in. profit in crypto though it's not. uncommon you know the it become the norm. to be in the crypto industry and just. see people become phenomenally wealthy. um so is it normal in the real world no.

but in crypto you know there are. 16-year-olds that made $100 million off. a lucky investment um there's so much. money slashing around in the crypto. ecosystem all the time yes that no it. didn't it didn't so I'm such a primitive. person that I just don't trust anything. digital so if I made you know $100. million in crypto whatever that is I. would immediately cash out and buy like. stuff y what' you do with the money that. you made basically everyone kept it so I.

had been given some advice that was very. good advice and I didn't follow towards. the end but you know if you keep the. money fake online then you don't sort of. get wrapped up in this world of being. wealthy um and so a lot of people just. keep you know there are people that are. like living in a bean bag with 50. million in crypto um and it's sort of. fake as long as you leave it in in. crypto so I left most of it in crypto. for a long long time um you know 1920 21. it was wasn't until I moved to the.

Bahamas really that I started to want to. cash out and you know get more involved. in real world things so what did you buy. in the real world yeah um I bought uh. some restaurant so during covid I bought. some restaurants back in the home my. hometown area um I knew some people in. New England in New England the brookers. um you know they were going to close I. had friends that worked at them or. family that worked at them um and wanted. to support the local ecosystem there I. bought some well yeah now everyone.

anyway um I bought some condos in the. downtown as well because a lot of people. were turning them into airbnb's so. people didn't have a place to live in. it's a very small downtown it's like two. blocks of a scen town in western Mass um. but BNB is really wrecked the United. States yeah I can say especially small. town small towns um but I kept them all. apartments we fixed them up a lot of. them were old. buildings um I had a buddy that was. super into SpaceX and so we bought some. of the properties that were really close. to uh the place in Texas that Elon.

created and we're turning them into you. know we just talked about we're turning. them into airbnbs for watching uh the. SpaceX stuff which was going pretty cool. wow um it's some rental properties in. New Hampshire um I did buy I bought a. nice car because there was a there's a. race that you can do it's like a. five-day it's called the gumball um and. a buddy of mine was doing it but you had. to have a nice car for the gumball still. exists yeah yeah it a cool will you. describe it for people who don't know. what it is it's basically a luxury car. Race Across America or across Europe.

Europe and all over they did Middle East. last time I think and uh yeah you start. in one area and for 5 days you drive to. the next area and then have some event. with everyone else who's doing it um so. we started in Canada and then drove down. uh and the idea was to get down to. Florida but Michelle and I stopped. halfway through but uh what kind of. vehicle did you drive uh Porsche I. actually bought here you want to I'm. going to make myself sound real stupid. right now I accidentally bought an. electric Porsche first so the Porsche.

tie can they don't say electric on it. you know most EV cars or electric cars. they say electric I stupidly bought an. electric car which you couldn't use for. Gumball uh no not for Road Rally no I. know it doesn't not a great look for me. but and so I ended up with a 911 for the. road rally was it fun it was fun yeah. it's fun I'm not yeah it's fun I don't. know I'm not into luxury purchases as. much as apparently you're not if you're. buying. condos in the birkar and rental. properties in New Hampshire then you. don't you didn't spend it on hookers and.

cocaine no no I mean I we partied I I I. had some fun I mean that was another big. problem for me I think like on the. backdrop of the hyper EA nerds that. never left the office like I'd go. clubbing um you know I would have a. party and we'd drink and have fun so um. I did send some I spent money on having. fun for sure um not hookers and cocaine. but you're an accountant Who start start. at ernston Young and you were on the. zany edge of the office well I was at.

Ernst Young no no at at FTX like you. were one of the more social people there. oh but night and day I mean I I would be. the most social person at the so if the. accountant is the craziest guy in your. office youve got a pretty subdued office. yeah it was just people that had this. weird EA they were working 247 and then. that that was it yeah did you hang out. with them at all a little bit I like to. hang out with different types of people. and so I would I would hang out with. them um Caroline used to do these things.

um God I don't even know if I should. admit this she would do these things. called Lars liveaction role plays where. she would write these scenes that were. occurring and then she'd make a. character list of different people and. she'd assign a different person like a. role and your job was to sort of just. flow around and figure out like what. your objective was in the game um it was. weird but it was kind of fun it was. really amazing that Caroline could write. these but fully clothed yes fully. clothed yeah and I was probably the only. one drinking or like two of us were. having a.

drink wow she would write liveaction. role plays like what yeah nothing I ever. would have done in my life did you ever. were you like the naughty nurse or like. how did you what what was your role no. what was one of them um I don't even. remember what they were I don't it was. nutty it was weird but I would do that. that was like once or twice you know um. Sam would do these events at his. apartment where he would like cook the. shittiest vegan food have ever tasted in. my life so I would do that once or. twice um but it's just not my scene you.

know they're playing board games and I. don't know it's just not sounds like the. weirdest office culture ever it was. bizarre I mean it's a little Tech World. though I think the tech world is a. little strange in that way um but this. having this EA component as well made it. even. weirder um yeah how did they treat you. said when you were describing effective. altruism that they didn't care about. about human life or people how did how. did you reach that conclusion. everything's EV or expected value and I.

want to blow my brains out every time I. hear that now but every decision is. Eevee so what is the expected value of. this situation um and I think actually. what does that mean I think Kaplan. touched on this a little bit during the. sentencing with Sam um you know was if. you could flip a coin and there's a 51%. chance that I don't know everyone lives. happily forever or a 49% chance that. everyone dies EV flipped the the coin. right like that kind of that's a very. extreme sorry I'm like taking a very.

extreme example but it's constantly. looking at calculating the likelihood of. benefit correct correct and making. decisions based off that um and Sam did. it for everything um you know Michael. Lewis touched on this a little in the. book um yeah Sam did it for everything. it's not for running yeah for running a. company with proper structure it's not. terrible like it's a good way to make. some decisions for sure you can't run. everything like that though yeah no it's. important to calculate likelihood I. think but I mean the acid test for.

decency is how do you treat the people. you you know who dependent on you who. you control your you know how do you. treat your housekeeper yeah and how did. they do by that measure I they just. wouldn't interact with the housekeeper. would be the only of yeah they yeah I. didn't really interact with like many. people like interaction wasn't their. thing did they it's interesting because. they're all politically liberal. obviously and the Bahamas is a poor. majority black country were they doing a. lot to help the majority of poor people.

in the Bahamas no I did a lot of. philanthropy in the Bahamas when I was. there so um I think you know everything. gets twisted with this terrible light. now but we were doing a lot you know we. did a toy drive during the holidays uh. to some of the islands that were hurt. during Dorian I fell in love with the. Bahamas I fell in love with the culture. there the people people incredible. people incredible positive attitude um. you know optimistic I I loved everything. about about sort of being in the Bahamas. um so I did some philanthropy work there.

um but the company really didn't do a. lot there so uh there was an FTX. Foundation that was doing more in uh. like the US um that actually Joe Sam's. father ran Joe bankman um and then Sam. had the sort of big brain EA stuff that. he was focusing on as well which is your. AI and AI climate was that a big climate. wasn't because climate was getting. enough attention so part of the EA thing. was also very important things that. weren't getting enough attention and. climate got a lot of attention so this.

was their explanation for why so AI what. else like what were the other problem. the pandemic sort of was rooted in that. um those are the two that I remember um. yeah did you ever get the sense that. they were helping. anyone it's a good question. um there was an issue so nishad and Sam. had an issue with so your idea is as. much money as possible to give it all. away when do you start giving it all. away right and after all of your desires.

have been SED so NAD thought look we've. made enough money we've made a lot let's. start doing some of this actual EA stuff. I think in Sam's mind he hadn't even. begun making. money I know it sounds crazy it does so. he's a billionaire but he's not rich. enough to actually give it away correct. I think he always we know we never. celebrated milestone of the company like. when something was achieved Sam treated. like it hadn't even begun there was no.

sense of achievement ever um you know I. would host some celebrations when. amazing things happened and Sam would. reluctantly get involved for a few. minutes but in Sam's dream world you. never there was no celebrating nothing. was ever done enough always more could. be done um so you what kind of childhood. did this guy have you know his mother. wrote a letter where she talked a little. about how he doesn't feel happiness she. doesn't think he's ever felt or is. capable of feeling happiness um I don't. I don't know Michael Lewis talked a.

little bit about his childhood I never. talked to him about his childhood or. anything like that so did you ever deal. with his mother a little bit um we are. she's more similar to Sam I think like. I'm not the type of person she enjoys. being around I don't want to sit down. and have a 4-Hour intellectual. conversation where I try to prove that. I'm smarter than you that's not you know. that's not my idea of a good time so um. you know we'd interact but I think she. didn't love social settings or like at. least some of like me um so not. much she sounds.

awful yeah I didn't know her that well. um you know. it's she's like an Ethics professor and. her son goes and does something like. this I mean you gota you got to have a. few question marks there yeah I think. you do um the lot of this was playing. out against the backdrop of the 2020. election yep so what did what what do. they think of trump what do they think. of Biden um his mother was very involved. in getting Biden elected I believe we'd.

heard I'd heard stories about it. um the yeah I think her I think mind the. gap did a lot and don't I might be wrong. in I think mind the gap did a lot in. Georgia that ultimately um flipped it. blue for Biden oh um so yeah I think. that's true um I'm not 100% sure Mrs. bankman freed the ethics professor is. using money I mean cuz she's not. independently Rich right no I don't not. not what Sam was right um did any of.

Sam's money go to that effort do you. think yes yeah I think Sam wired 10 20. 102 million maybe. more interesting to get Biden elected. but he's not he's not facing any. campaign finance charges I no he didn't. get hit with the campaign. Finance this story man you get into the. details what did they think of Trump. they did not like Trump um they had this. wild idea to try to pay him off to not.

run um and I just said I don't want to. be a part of that what they I think it's. quote in some news uh they had this idea. to try to pay him $5 billion dollar to. not run um who's they him and his. brother Gabe and there there was like. more of these sort of EA political. strategist people that would be uh. election interference and bribery as far. as I know yeah I wasn't involved in it. are they facing charges for that no oh. cuz I think in like a first world.

country bribing people um in the. political system including not to run. would be a felony like a major felony. that would be subverting democracy I. think would be the term we'd use yeah. that makes sense yeah so but no charges. there yeah interesting were you aware of. that at the time uh I it briefly it had. come up and I just said I don't want to. be a part of this like I please I also. wanted him to win you know so I'm not. yeah I want him involved did they know. that you disagreed politically yeah yeah.

I mean that was part of you know I don't. want to make this out like I had no. association with them at all like Gabe. got me excited about the pandemic work. right and so I got involved on the the. pandemic work um yeah that's not. illegal but um so I was aware of some of. the stuff that was going on but not most. of the behind the scenes stuff right I. wasn't in EA I was never in the EA world. I even sort of publicly Ed the EA so um. you really didn't like EA I didn't there. were a few of us that really didn't um.

the only thing I liked about EA was it. would bring workers in that worked 24/7. because they had a higher purpose like. there was a higher purpose to why they. were working and so they wouldn't get. burned out as easily um so that was the. only thing I liked when EA started. working they worked 247 365 it's just. the personality type seems so kind of. classic early Bolshevik to me yeah yeah. you know yeah I mean you're you're. you're bringing about Utopia in the. world so actual people don't matter.

you're involved in something much larger. than yourself so it gives purpose and a. framework to your life yeah it inspired. I mean the early Bolsheviks worked like. animals I mean they did to their great. credit I mean they were really hard. workers yeah and when it's written on. paper it doesn't sound as bad as it. turns out no right well that's exactly. right as you noted socialism doesn't say. you know yeah everyone everyone's equal. what's wrong with equality nothing I. mean even Sam's whole thing like on. paper it all sounded fine in the end. millions of people lost all their money.

right better than Ukraine famine but. still it's it's a branch of the same. tree so did um Sam ever decide that he'd. made enough money to start giving it. away no I don't think so I mean there. was I think in his mind well sorry Let. Me Cave about that in his mind some of. the political work he was doing was. giving it away to these bigger um. initiatives um so I think that that was. sort of a little bit but no not to the. tune of what you'd expect from someone. who that's their. ideology so it sounds like the bankman.

Freeds helped get Joe Biden elected in. 2020 for sure I mean Sam was one of the. largest Democratic. donors I I'm this is just this whole. conversation is just me trying to make. you feel even worse about what happened. to you and I'm sorry I'm sorry I feel no. I'm just shocked by it actually I. shouldn't be but they were definitive. players in a in a contested election. that I don't think for the record once. again sorry YouTube was legitimate I. don't think that this is another example.

of how it was illegitimate but whether. you believe the results or not they were. huge players in getting Joe Biden. elected and you're the one who's facing. prison for campaign Finance violations. correct. yes I mean that's just absolutely. nuts did um when they mentioned paying. off Trump $5 billion not to run do you. do you know if anyone approached Trump. or they campaign about this I don't know.

that's you never knew if they were just. spitting out wacky ideas I mean I think. they also had this idea to buy like an. island and try to make it like just. their laws and their rules you know it's. just like they always had these crazy. things you never knew which how real. something was or what was just what. would their rules be on bankman freed. Island I do not want to. know pretty weird right yeah yeah would. it he was vegan. he was vegan y um why uh animal. cruelty he didn't like the idea of an.

animal suffering or yes yeah I mean. that's something that I think is. definitely he's stayed vegan now right. he's slimming away to nothing in prison. so you know a lot of people said his. whole yay thing was fake uh at least the. veganism I would say is real because now. would be the time to drop the stick if. it was well from your description it. sounds like the oppositive fake it. sounds like a sincere deeply held. religious belief it sounds like a cult. sounds totally real yeah did you think. it was real at the time I think it was. real there's I think a public perception. in the world it was all just a show that.

he put on to try to raise more money but. I I don't believe that I think he. genuinely one of the Mysteries for me as. a total Outsider watching this you know. from afar is how investors could meet. Sam bankman freed who was like a child. rocking back and forth jumpy stinky. wearing cargo shorts and think I need to. give that guy money. yeah I mean I can knock that I was. enthralled by him when I met him I mean. there's something.

about there's something about his work. ethic the way he describes things he can. sort of bring you into to the way he. sees or feels about things um he had a. track record for a long time of being. very right about things um you know. there's. this there's this kind of world where. there's like idealized sort of central. figures at companies um and they're. either wildly successful or not right. not is Sam bman freed Elizabeth Holmes. is is Elon Musk or you know Sam ultman.

or Steve Jobs right so there's this sort. of Central Tech single person that you. follow and have a lot of faith in. concept that pays off handsomely or it. doesn't and it seems to really only go. one way or the other so um I think. everyone's trying to find that next Elon. Musk and Sam had a is vibe that it could. be him that's such a smart analysis I. don't you not my world but I just feel. that you're absolutely right that a lot. of these places are effectively Cults of. Personality Y and um it does seem like a.

very collaborative business Tech. actually yeah that's right but in case. after case whether Zuckerberg or or whom. the old people you listed one person. gets all the credit it does feel that. way yeah yeah and it either goes well or. you know it either goes too well or too. too poorly so when things started to. fall apart um what was your reaction. what was Caroline Ellison's reaction. what was Sam bankman Freed's reaction. yeah so I had I had resigned from the. company in June um what year of 22 so.

before it collapsed but a couple other. people had just resigned um and I didn't. we didn't want the publicity of another. why did you resigned I had tried to. leave two years ago I mean I I'd moved. to the Bahamas to get away from everyone. and then everyone showed up um so I left. the Bahamas for DC to get away from. everyone again um W so and then the. whole purpose of me being CEO is because. the CEO wasn't going to actually live. there but now Sam was living there so he.

could be the you know he was the actual. yes person in charge he could be the CEO. on paper if he was going to live there. so um yeah I mean I was done again so. you resigned did you when you resigned. did you have any inkling that the. company was in trouble no no it seemed I. mean it's look it look it sounds crazy. now it seemed impossible I mean Sam was. quoted in Forbes is worth $40 billion. um I had watched Alam make billions and. billions of dollars FTX is a very good. business that was making about a billion.

a year in Revenue um Sam had launched. multiple crypto projects that had taken. off um you know I got my first ever. death threat when we wouldn't sell. someone more pre-launch token that Sam. had just launched right he was selling. sort of early release of a token called. Maps crazy token idea um what was the. idea. it was Maps like your map Google map. service or whatever offline on the.

blockchain what okay yeah there's no. more to say about that everything you're. thinking about that is 100% well I don't. even understand it what do that even. it's cuz it doesn't make any set okay uh. Sam launches that is like selling it off. to people and we told someone they. couldn't buy anymore and some guy. threatened to like kill my whole family. if we wouldn't sell them I mean this is. how people were clamoring to be involved. in anything BF touched so um yeah the. idea that there would be significant. financial troubles like this just seemed.

impossible I mean in highsight now I. understand you know because it was just. so hot it was so hot there was so I mean. everything you know I Sam could have. pulled a booger out and sold it to. someone for $100 million I mean. it's how interesting human psychology. never changes does it no it's repeated. over and over and over again it really. is everything's the Tulip craze. everything and it's just but it's funny. because Silicon Valley had this you know. massive valuation bubble in 2000 web van.

and E toys and you know all these kind. of ludicrous companies went under and. people really suffered as a result and. then it happens again yeah 15 years. later yeah I mean crypto's crypto's done. a lot of these up and down so it's not. it's not quite tool open that it was up. and then down of course and I think Sam. is a figurehead type person is going to. happen again and again and. again interesting so where were you when. you realized the company was in actual. trouble um I was at a Buccaneers game uh.

watching Tom Brady play in um in Florida. and what how did you find out so the. balance sheet had leaked the sort of. infinite balance sheet about a week. before I want to say had leaked and it. was alam's balance sheet um and what it. showed was that Alam had basically been. borrowing from a ton of lenders with. questionable assets so they had a bunch. of assets on their books that were. tokens that Sam himself had created and. then went out to lenders and they lent. to him now when that broke my first.

thought was our lenders are screwed well. that's it's so funny you read my mind. that's the first thing I was that's what. I thought too you know I don't know how. much fa like everything was very. transparent with the lenders there was. no desire to no one was hiding anything. from the lenders they wanted to lend um. they had to keep showing new origination. so they could show that they were. growing you know everyone talks in. crypto like we're building this huge. ecosystem but everyone wants their share. of the pie to be the largest right you. know it's um binance used to love to say.

like let's all pick each other up and. then binance would crush little. companies so it could get bigger it's. business it's I'm not knocking it it's. but um the lenders wanted to be the. larest what kind of lenders when you say. lenders uh Genesis Celsius they're all. bankrupt now shockingly um Genesis. Celsius. blockfi uh blockchain.com I'm missing a. couple they're crypto lenders um and. they're all yeah they're all holding. people's assets for them and then. lending them out and providing a return.

um you know this sort of collapse of. over lending is also repeated itself. over and over and over again right um so. the crypto industry was just large. microcosm of that but this balance sheet. leaks that shows basically Genesis but a. couple other lenders had been lending I. mean I'm talking eight 10 15 billion. dollars to Alama against what are you. know inarguably questionable things to. be lending. against so my first thought paper maps. on the blockchain yeah yeah you know I.

made a joke it was like a ham sand you. know Alam was like look we got a ham. sandwich can we borrow 15 billion um but. they were doing it with other firms. through so three arrows is another. trading firm I mean they weren't even. preparing financials it turns out they. were just borrowing billions from these. lenders anyway so this I could go on. forever with this but the balance sheet. leaks and my immediate reaction is not. that FTX is in any trouble my immediate. reaction is oh our lenders yeah are in a. lot of trouble for this um but then this. sort of rumor starts to come out that um.

FTX doesn't have customer funds like. it's the the balance sheet to some. people somehow revealed that FTX didn't. have the customer funds and I think a. lot of that was driven by binance the. sort of competitor which was Sam's. argument um but so I'm at the Buccaneers. game I send this message that's been. quoted now with like in Sam's I send to. Caroline hey can FTX meet all the. withdrawals um she doesn't tell me yes. or no she testifies that she goes back.

and asks Sam whether to like be honest. with me or not um so it's over you know. it is very blurry in my mind how sorry. just for a baseline how old is she at. this point 30 29 30 everyone's no one's. older than that except the lawyers who. were involved who are all adults and had. yeah uh for them it's just pure profit. like they're off doing their lawyer Crim. somewhere else but they just pocketed. the money and they were never indicted. or hassled by the FBI or anything I I. don't know the experience they've all.

had um but they're not in. trouble sorry just I can't keep. hammering that enough it's it's a. interesting aspect of it there's a lot. of documentaries coming out about FTX. and that seems to be a central point. that a lot of them are focusing in on. too that the lawyers skated yeah almost. impossibly so given sort of public. information yeah you know I thought it. was weird I mean I'm gonna I don't know. what they're going to do to me now but. yeah going to prison like you whatever. you know I had almost thought the the.

government and other people laid out the. exact my defense right so like Dan. fredberg The General Counsel for Alam. put out his own statement saying that he. was in charge of all Regulatory Affairs. at Alama like that was in his words um. that he stated that uh you know that. where is where is fredberg in prison now. no he's not he's not been. charged um you know the government noted. I was worth hundreds and hundreds of. millions of dollars so like I'm just. choosing to make this a crime like I.

thought my defense had been laid out by. other people in like an odd way um that. no one seemed to care about but yeah I. get. it so you're at the Bucks game you text. Caroline can we can we do we have the. money yeah are these rumors true. basically um I don't remember you know. it starts to become apparent they are I. remember I think a day later uh his name. is Zayn tacket he worked for FTX and he.

sends me like dude this is a complete. effing joke there's zero money in the uh. cold wallet which is a crypto term for. basically where all of customers money. should be um you know and I wrote him. back something like haha that's not Poss. like it's got to be somewhere um and he. was like no dude there's no you know all. the customer money is is not where it's. supposed to be um and so then you know. it becomes more real in that moment I. fully you know maybe I'm just in denial. I wasn't appreciating the money could be. gone like where' it go right like Sam's.

not off buying you know he bought houses. for the company don't get me wrong but. he's not out there blowing hundreds of. millions of dollars on his own personal. life right everything is somewhere in. the system that is Sam system where is. it um and then it becomes clear um I. don't remember when this is all public. so if I I don't want to screw up and say. this day and it was actually the day. before but um Sam drops the Ventures. book into a chat um which is all of the. money that he has spent in FTX Ventures. um FTX Ventures was a VC arm that he.

launched about a year before and he. publicly said he was putting a billion. dollars into it um and we all you know. he's he's worth 40 billion with Forbes I. I knew he' his money in my mind was. somewhere so it's fine um but then he. drops his Ventures book into this chat. that I'm in which is now an Infamous. Infamous chat called small group chat. and he says hey we have you know can. anyone sell this venture book or start. selling off some of it to meet the. liquidity needs and I opened the. ventures book and I scrolled and. scrolled and scrolled and got to the.

bottom and there was like6 to8 billion. dollars of FTX Ventures Investments and. they clicked to me that's where the. customer's money. was he had sort of Taken what I think. happened and I think a lot of people. don't think this is the truth but in my. mind uh Sam had taken all the money from. Alam that he borrowed from Genesis and. he when when crypto Tanked oror started. going down and they weren't making as. much trading he poured it into a. ventures book and then eventually the. lenders recalled all those loans and Sam.

didn't have the loans because he poured. it all into the ventures book which is. illiquid you can't turn it into cash. right away right and so he went and took. customers funds did any of those. investment hit yeah a bunch of them did. great actually really good it was a. Phenom I mean that's why customers are. being paid back so much anthropic alone. I think he made um like 500% on um no. they were great A lot of them were great. investors that's interesting I didn't. know any of this so um not a defense of. Sam bankman no it's not a I want to be. clear it's not a defense you can't do.

that but um do you think you know net. net as they say in your business that. was that was like a smart move uh if it. wasn't with with the lenders money yes. here's what I think should have happened. he took all that lenders money and put. it into Ventures and then when he. couldn't repay the lenders he should. have gotten on the phone and called them. and said what do you do here like I got. this Ventures book it's not a bad book. do you I mean I could file bankruptcy if. you want I can give you guys the.

ventures like how do you want to solve. this that's not yeah because when you. know once you take that much from an. institution famously you know you've got. some power yeah correct you're almost. too he became too big to fail and then. didn't use it interesting why I don't. know I think about that a lot I you know. and that's if what I'm telling you turns. out to be the correct Story I mean I was. so uninvolved you know the world really. because I've pled guilty to something. associated with this the world really. wants me to have been like heavily. involved in this or because Sam brought.

me into a group chat but I hadn't been. aware of what the company was doing. still if you had been involved you would. have been indicted for it I assume yeah. I know government would for sure yeah. right and so I again we don't need to. guess about that I mean you went through. the process you're headed to prison and. you haven't been charged with or pled to. any crime related to the fraud at FTX. that's correct yeah yes I know it's. correct they had me involved they. threatened bank fraud which is asinine. um but they I was CCD on an email.

between general counsel and the bank and. Sam that uh was a bank application um. that they argue did not completely. articulate what that bank account was. supposed to be doing um so they they. dangled bank fraud as a potential but. there's no email from you saying hey. let's take customer money and spend it. on things no no and I think the bank. fraud accusation is one of the most. crazy actually but that's you know I. didn't plead guilty to that. yeah interesting so at this point when.

you're um texting back and forth with. people who are still at the company and. you hear that there are no you know we. have no you know there's no money do you. do you think I'm in. trouble no I I really didn't think I. mean I knew I was about to have a. hellish you know year or two ahead um. yeah but no I didn't think I was going. to be in trouble um you know I had most. of my money on the platform like if I.

knew this was a fraud I wouldn't have my. money on the platform I at all times. thought I got the right people involved. um I got lawyers involved where I. thought it was necessary I you know I. thought the decisions that I had made. the entire time I was there were the. reasonable correct decisions um so you. know I knew there was going to be a lot. of action uh interaction with the. government um but no I did not expect to. have any legal so when did you find out. you were in trouble um let's see so we. are profing which for everyone doesn't.

know you the lawyer you tell the lawyers. stuff and then they go to the government. and talk about it and then the. government comes back with questions and. then you answer their questions and so. there's this interaction between your. lawyers and the prosecutors um about. everything you have and know and want to. share um and so I was doing a couple of. those and I thought everything was going. well I think this was about January. maybe February um so this is3 yeah so. this is 4 months is after the collapse. um you know I had sent off my cell phone.

for like $200,000 to be completely. downloaded imaged and sent to the. government for everything they needed. why it cost 200 Grand I don't know it's. what they charge at these I don't I. don't know the lawyers recommend a firm. you use them um but the FBI showed up at. my house one day uh it was early morning. um you know I answered the door in my b. bathrobe there's police everywhere. there's probably 30 armed agents that. had the entire house surrounded with. assault rifles pointed at me there was.

uh some guy with a battering ram. obviously a guy with a megaphone yelling. at me um and uh without any. warning No in fact the lawyers were you. know I asked the lawyers is someone the. police are going to show up at the house. and they said almost certainly not you. know we're cooperating with them we're. giving them everything they want um. you're answering all their questions uh. we don't expect that to. happen um but they they did they were. there They seized my cell phone um and. Michelle's cell phone they came with a.

battering ram and automatic rifles to. take your cell phones yeah a lot of. Cruiser I mean it was really nuts and. then they held Us in the car as all the. school buses went by which was uh. infuriating so the FBI shows up at your. house rather than just calling your. lawyer and saying hey we know you've. imaged your cell phones already at the. expense of $200,000 would like physical. possession of your cell phones they show. up with multiple Cruisers automatic. weapons a battering ram you're at home.

with your child I think and your pets uh. he pre-child at this point pre yeah just. pregnant pregnant girlfriend great. perfect and. um they show up and then throw you in a. cruiser yeah they held Us in the cruiser. for a while they were very upset we'. brought our cell phones out with us um I. think they had this Grand image of like. trashing my house I think is what a lot. of these guys wanted to do do um they. certainly wanted to enter the house I. could hear them discussing they were. upset they couldn't enter the house. these FBI employees yeah we had had our.

phones with us when we went outside so. they had no justification to enter uh. the house anymore so they held Us in the. cruiser for a while I could hear some. back and forth about being upset they. couldn't go in the house uh you know all. the school buses are coming by which was. unfortunate and then once the school. buses were done they let us go back. inside the house um you know and it's. scary I mean being without your cell. phone all of a sudden is hard you know. there's people trying to get in touch. with you you gu in touch with the. lawyers and things like that so um you. know you got to run down to the store. buy a new cell phone um but it was the. government sending a message you know we.

don't we don't believe you uh you know. we have a different narrative and you. know you're facing the government right. now so get in. line but again the only purpose of. sending guys with automatic rifles in a. battering ram is to intimidate you. correct you're an American. citizen and that embarrass you I mean. the neighbors see it's loud it's and. yeah but treat you like garbage you've. not been convicted of anything not only. that but I had thought into that moment. we were being very Cooperative I mean I.

had you know there's this sort of. narrative out there that I refused to. cooperate with the doj I wasn't giving. them what they wanted that's not true I. immediately cooperated you know I. replied to the Bahamian government when. they emailed me and I was offering the. doj what I had um I just I don't think. what I had jives with their story of how. things were and the narrative that that. they were able to create and so they. weren't you know they allude to and. they're very careful with it so I you. know I don't want to accuse them of.

being well not accuse but like they're. not outward with this but they through. the profer you can kind of tell what. you're able to say that would help you. save yourself a little bit more um they. don't tell you directly but it's you. know describe this campaign Finance in a. different way or you know how how does. this reconcile you know they sort of. tell you their narrative um through the. questioning and it's your decision if. you play ball or not and I just decided. I wasn't going to lie to the government. to save myself. um like I feel some other people have in.

this situation so uh who um I don't. think well look I know nishad did not. think he was committing campaign Finance. fraud um I know that for a fact um you. know the idea that people worth hundreds. of millions to billions of dollars can. be straw donors just doesn't make it. doesn't even cross your mind um you know. I had had had uh when Michelle ran for. congress I had foreign people that would. text me and say Hey you know I'll send. you 50 bucks you can put in your. campaign and I reply no that's illegal.

we're we can't take forign money I. appreciate the offer um or even you know. us people would be like hey I'll you. know I'll just venmo it you know you can. put it in no you can't do that that's. you're speaking of the mother of your. child who ran for congress yes correct. in New York y um didn't win and is now. in trouble for taking money from you or. something unclear exactly correct for us. having co-mingled finances right and her. work for FTX not being real um yeah yeah.

so where was I before that sorry sorry I. just have to point out that. there again I I wouldn't be saying any. of this if you had even been accused of. participating in the core fraud here but. you haven't been even accused of that so. by the government so um but but you did. give to Republican candidates yes and I. was associated with FTX well yeah yeah. well a lot of people were who haven't. been indicted I mean right in our system.

I don't know if you know this but the. people who commit the crimes get. indicted people who haven't committed. the crimes don't get indicted that's. that's the promise of the system I'm not. sure I I'm not sure I believe that well. I don't either that's why this is a fast. standing interview but I I used to. believe that did you believe that yeah I. held up rate until very recently. believing that you know I even. tried I'm I'm not I'm not a victim I. will never be a victim I don't consider. myself a victim I chose to listen to the. lawyers I I made the decisions that I.

got so I don't want I don't want this. narrative to be that I feel like I'm a. victim of something and I I go out of my. way to make sure I don't have that. feeling um so I constantly try to spin. it in my head to make it. more The Narrative events that I know. isn't true but I'm I'm constantly trying. to get there to make this all make sense. so you know I had a lot of F I don't. dislike the legal system or have that. strong of issues with it until I sort of. saw what I saw um and saw how it plays. out I mean that the well I'm I I think.

you're taking the right tack emotionally. I think it's very destructive to think. of yourself as a victim I think the. Democratic party destroys millions of. lives by encouraging Americans in. certain groups to think of themselves as. victims I agree with you 100% but as a. factual matter you are a victim because. the crimes to which you play guilty are. not. crimes from my read of it I don't. understand how those are crimes it. doesn't make any sense at all if you're. borrowing against your own. assets and then you take that which.

every rich person in the world who's. invested in low basis equities for. example does y then every person. um that money that you get from that. loan or any loan is yours it's yours and. if you donate some of that to political. candidates you're not a straw donor for. the person who loed you the money I mean. that's like a that's crazy yeah I agree. I I think so you are a victim in that. sense that's like not a crime and to.

construe that as a crime is like itself. a miscarriage of Justice in my opinion. yeah I mean I think it says a lot of why. there was an inducement right there's no. need to make an inducement to get. someone to plea if you have a good case. or or if they're guilty right you only. bring up an. inducement because you know that you. know this person's not believing or. getting to the same place you want want. them to get to right so they threaten. your family it's it's more common than. you'd think the Varsity Blues case you. know and a lot of the reality is people.

don't have sympathy for wealthy people. right which is fair I'm not arguing. there's plenty of people that have. sympathy for and so when there's a. misjustice to someone with money a lot. of the world just like well I am a. wealthy person I guess relatively. speaking and I intensely dislike rich. people even though you know I've been. one my whole life really but yeah I. dislike them a lot because I think. they've been terrible leaders of our. country. um and I also just I don't I just don't. like them personally uh so I get it I. absolutely understand that bias that. bigotry but but the system itself should.

should guard itself from bias and. bigotry just because you don't like okay. you don't like black people does that. mean every accus black person should go. to prison no of course not that's. horrible it's immoral right and so it's. that it's true for any group you assess. the crime on its own terms is this. actually a crime did the person actually. commit the crime and what's the. appropriate punishment for committing. that crime like those are the only. questions that matter it doesn't matter. what group you're from right yeah that's. how you'd expect the legal system to.

work I think but it's it's clear as day. that's not how it it works if they told. you that because you're white and. straight that you can't get a fair trial. like don't we have a civil rights. division at the justice department I. mean that's the problem if some it would. be like well you know you're black you. can't get a fair Tri well okay we have a. federal government to fix that right. yeah I yeah yeah okay sorry I I'm. getting you you're obviously much more. balanced psychologically but I'm. outreached you go crazy you go crazy so.

how are you. feeling having gone through all of this. this has been a remarkable conversation. thank you by the way but how are you. feeling by the prospect of spending. seven and a half years in federal. prison um it's a good question I think. I'm more upset at the impact it's having. on everyone else um I've I I mean no. one's I've always been fairly selfless I. think in sort of how I operate um you. know I'm not excited for it but uh you. know the impact on Michelle the impact.

on the kids the impact on my family the. impact on you. know the FTX fraud on all the customers. I mean those things are much worse I. think um I've talked to a number of. people that have been through the prison. system and so I've gotten advice on how. to do it um or what have they what have. they said well they sort of assure you. it's not as scary as as you're feeling. like it's going to be right it's it's. you're not in with um people who. committed sexual assault or gang bangers. or things like that um you know figure.

out ways the boredom is what I'm told is. sort of the the hardest thing to Grapple. with and you have to find ways uh to. have purpose I think a lot of people. that end up in in white collar crime. situations right their whole life they. felt they did things to have purpose. right people are successful want to have. purpose yes um and so you're all of a. sudden stripped of your ability to have. any real purpose and figuring out how to. combat that um is is one of the key. things that people recommend that so how. do you do. that I mean I've got a massive book list.

I've sort of been putting together um. and working with people who are going to. send me those um hopefully I can teach. or provide some educational material. I've already helped create so there's. this guy named Michael Santos he was. incarcerated for almost 30 years for a. small drug possession crime during um. during the War on Drugs um and he is. started a program to help with education. and so we together created a course. that'll be sent into almost a million. prisoners by the end of this year I'm.

hoping around digital assets and. cryptocurrency and this evolving economy. come on um so that was very cool to be a. part of and is hopefully going to have. some positive impact um you know there's. it's pros and cons but the crypto. industry has a low barriered entry right. um and it's I think it's one of the cool. things there's people all over the world. in every economic class or situation. that get to be involed. um and it's a very. unjudged and so um you know I'm hoping.

people less fortunate than me who come. out of prison um this could be something. that's hopeful for them you know cuz you. get out of prison job prospects are. terrible you know all these things are. horrific the moment you get out um and. so you know if this if a couple people. could find a meaningful job in this. industry that would be incredible you. know as terrible The Situation's been. for me there's people who have it way. worse who go go through this system so. um are you claustrophobic no I actually. like small spaces believe it or not come. on I do I do it's one of my I live in.

this very large house right now and it. drives me nuts I walk into a room and. know at least 10 things need to be fixed. in it that I haven't gotten to and I. just I I don't mind small spaces so I. lived in about 400 square feet in Hong. Kong um and loved it loved the apartment. so um I'm not worried about the space I. don't I don't know what I'm worried. about to be honest with you like for. myself personally um I navigate. situations well um I'm pretty friendly. with all types of people so uh you know.

it's much it's much worse on everyone. who has to deal with my aftermath out. here yeah how is your family dealing. with it not well I mean it's hard it's. you know I'm splashed across my local. newspaper as like this horrific human. being that stole everyone's money and. hurt all these people um you know all. the stuff that I thought was doing good. is now perceived as me trying to hide. that I was an evil person by doing good. um so that sucks um you know yeah it's. terrible for. them it's terrible for a lot of people.

um I'm sorry no not your fa has it. changed your view of. crypto no I'm a stronger supporter now. of crypto than I think I was before so. the basis of. crypto FTX is in some ways the. antithesis of what crypto is Right. crypto is a. decentralized platform that the network. that doesn't need these centralized. institutions that sort of doesn't have. to deal with the horrific banking. industry which is a horrific industry um. and so FTX and B these all serve as.

Bridges right now between what I'll call. the old world and the new blockchain. based world and you know FTX proved the. exact thing that a lot of people in the. crypto industry are arguing which is. like these centralized Powers you don't. know what's going on inside of them they. get too big they get too careless they. obfuscate human lives in this sort of. you know it's big Central Arena. um so the basis of crypto is fighting. against what FTX was really U they're. necessary Bridges right now but uh I.

think eventually they won't be so no I. love the crypto industry I'm not saying. there's no issues with it that's not my. point at all but I have a stronger faith. in crypto now than I I did even. before it's really it's an incredible. Network I mean I'm not like praying to. it every night like some people are but. um it's amazing I mean if you've ever. sent crossborder remittance through a. Fed wire system or through a bank it's a. horrific process yes and the authority. that the banks have over what is your.

asset is not good it shouldn't be. shocking it's shocking uh you know try. to withdraw you know $25,000 in cash. from a bank yeah yeah I mean you. probably get proba get more than 30. agents at your door oh yeah no no I well. I couldn't agree more with that I wonder. though given your experience just trying. to sort of see what you've learned from. it like you know you make the people. with power mad you annoy them you give.

you know $20 million to Republican. candidates in a tightly contested cycle. and they like they wreck you and then. think after the mother of your child you. know small child trying to send both. parents to prison really on campaign. Finance violations it's pretty if you. would do that there's nothing you. wouldn't do right so crypto the idea of. crypto absolutely dis owers the banks. single most important institution most. powerful in America more more powerful. than Pharma even like how can they allow.

crypto honestly yeah I mean I don't. think the government gets to decide. what's not allowed so agree more you. know there have to be rules I I'm not. anti all regulation right there needs to. be I'm just saying it's a practical. matter now that you they sent a guy with. a battering ram to your house in. Suburban DC yep. um like they don't have limits like if. you get in their way they'll Crush you. right they killed they murdered Jeffrey. Epstein actually that actually happened.

sorry it did so like how can they allow. Bitcoin I mean you have to to proceed. you have to fight right you can't not. fight but at some point the fangs are. going to come out right oh they've come. out the fangs have come out I mean the. Republicans are fighting against those. fangs um you know really thank you to. Ted Cruz for initiating that um War but. you know it was interesting and I'm. going to sound crazy when I say this. when crypto first started being noticed. in DC I was worried that um not worried.

but like I thought Elizabeth Warren was. going to like it she's ran this whole. you know fake anti-b banking campaign. individual rights you know this whole. thing and I thought Republicans are. going to see this as a competition to. the dollar and might be more. apprehensive to something competing with. the dollar and so I was like uh oh you. know we're going to have to do some. education work on the Republican side. and then I mean Elizabeth comes out Pro. big Bank anti I mean it's same with. Bernie Sanders it's really why they.

against the billionaires they're against. pow same with that who's that sort of. mildly attracted but super annoying. chick the former bartender from New York. yeah I can't but I can never remember. her real name but anyway um yeah we're. against fighting the power fight the. banks but they're tools of the banks of. course every one of them yeah I mean. crypto's a great proof of that I mean. this thing is I mean this is the. quintessential individual rights you. know a network can't be racist can't be. sexist can't be anything like it's it's. just math working this should be the.

dream for people who Advocate that that. is true egalitarians should embrace it. love it should love it I mean you can't. be denied access to using crypto because. you're in the slums or something like. that or you you know a lot of people go. to get bank accounts that don't have a. lot of money and they get hit with all. these fees and all this crypto doesn't. do that it can't do that it's a math. Network that works because math Works um. yeah it should be the dream for these. people I. mean they showed their cards completely. and now a lot of people pretend it's not.

true I like Democrats will come around. it's crazy well I watched this we were. laughing with this at breakfast with the. Gary Gensler thing I watched some very. smart really good people in crypto who I. know big holders of say Bitcoin say well. I think Gary gendler's you know he's not. going to be and it's like Gary Gensler. first of all he's just a total tool of. the people in charge like that's it like. whatever they want he'll do he's never. going to be on your side but they like. were convinced that he was yeah it's. baffling I mean in a dream world it's so.

not a partisan issue but the crypto. industry didn't make it partisan the the. government made it partisan right well I. agree yeah well I think it's really. simple and I have the advantage of. knowing a lot less than you do about the. details so for me the big picture is. clear and it is that this technology is. a threat to entrench power therefore. they'll do whatever it takes to destroy. it yeah yeah that's true right yeah or. try to control it right I think they've.

gotten sort of the US government now so. binance survived where it was one of the. biggest crypto exchanges but now they're. under US Government surveillance so I. think binance is essentially just an. extension a crypto extension of of the. US government at this point so can I. just ask is someone who believes in. Freedom whose freedoms about to be taken. from him the one of the to me the most. intriguing promise most thrilling. promise of cryptocurrency was the. ability to. transact you know any kind of economic. Trans financial transaction in with.

privacy it's like nobody's business. actually yeah it's not it turns out it's. not that private though in a lot of ways. it's not private in a lot of ways it's. more so who the account holder is is. private until it's somehow made public. but the transactions are public forever. yeah by definition that's the point of. the blockchain but the idea that you. know I don't no one has to like I'm. allowed to buy things or sell things. without everyone knowing about it that. seems like a human right to me yeah um. Can will that ever be made good I mean.

there are blockchains that operate that. way there are sort of hidden like XMR. and there are blockchains specifically. built to obis um ownership and ability. to review the transactions but say 20 I. mean this is an emerging technology so. in 20 years will it be easy for the. average person I.E me to buy something. or sell something using this technology. as a currency medium Exchange in.

privately no my sense is no it won't be. the like the core use of it won't be but. it's not private you're it's not private. now cash is your most private um for. sure that's why they hate it. um but cash is going away yeah. unfortunately I'm not yeah sorry the. blockchain doesn't solve cancer and. every problem just to be clear it's just. a a very good Network for some specific. sets of purposes yeah I know I was. just okay I I I won't throw up my no I.

don't think you'll end up a crypto lover. at any point in time but well I want to. be that's the thing I've spoken it two. crypto conferences I like a lot of. crypto people they're smart some of them. are scammers for sure but a lot of them. are just really high-minded idealistic. people high IQ people who want to make. the world better so I love them um I. love them I love my sailor I like you. know a lot of those people I'm so. sympathetic to it but I just want it. to give me some privacy that's no.

privacy you're not going to get I mean. you can be private in the sense that no. one knows your address belongs to you. right um but I don't think it's going to. get it's not going to solve the privacy. on a large. scale could you fund a because you there. is no meaningful um opposition to the. current regime in the United States is. there's no organ there a lot of trump. voters but they're not organized and. they never will be organized because the. people in charge prevent them from being. organized they tried on January 6 a lot. of them are still in jail so will crypto.

solve for that will you ever be able to. fund a protest movement that can't be. defunded by the people the protest. movement. challenges uh well I mean so the you. can't stop the transactions from. occurring um and so that's you know a. bank can stop a transaction from a Curr. close your account or things of that. sense you can't close someone's Bitcoin. account um and there's tons of different. cryptocurrencies so we're generalizing. here a lot um but you can't close. someone's Bitcoin account yeah just go.

with Bitcoin so you there that account. yes you could use it to fund a protest. that couldn't be stopped now once you. have the Bitcoin if you want to turn it. into cash that could be prevented um or. if they flag your wallet as being a like. extremely highrisk wallet or associated. with something nefarious a lot of other. people won't interact with it or won't. want to receive from it. um this doesn't completely solve. government. control um but it takes things out of. centralized institutions and puts them.

in your own pocket um which is enticing. for a lot of people I think we're going. to a barter economy um I just I just. think it's really important that the. people in charge not have a monopoly on. the money because when they do they will. defund any effort to challenge their. Authority yeah it's anti-American I mean. the whole principle completely an doing. here that's right but I don't know a lot. of people don't share that view well I. just want to wish you truly godp speed.

and thank you for explaining all of this. and anyone who's made it to the end of. this interview I think we'll have a. completely different as I do view of. what happened certainly to. you last question have you talked to Sam. bankman freed since all this happened I. have not no uh I haven't really spoken. to anyone so the lawyers do a great job. you get siloed immediately you can't. interact with each other um um because. then you get threatened with collusion. or more crimes it's sort of part of the. legal it's very smart part of the legal. system they you know you become a pawn.

in this game of lawyers um and the pawns. can't interact the pawns lawyers can. interact if the pawns lawyers are. willing to interact but uh for the most. part you're siloed and separated so I. haven't spoken to anyone who's. meaningful um in the entire. situation no First Amendment for the. accused no I mean they it's yeah they. don't like you talking uh you know they. threw Sam Sam got locked up early for. leaking a diary to the. Press um you know the the prosecutors.

control the whole they have to control. the whole narrative it's a it's a game. of publicity uh for everyone but you. know the individual's in a horrific spot. and the government's in the greatest. imaginable spot it's so disgusting it's. hard to express it Ryan thank you very. much yeah thank you for having me. appreciate it. [Applause]. [Music]. James o keeps Line in the Sand. premiering only on TCN on October 10th.

you can sign up to watch at. tuckercarlson.com James O'Keefe's new. documentary Line in the Sand at. tuckercarlson.com. [Music]. so it turns out that YouTube is. suppressing our show show I know. shocking that in an election year with. everything at stake Google would be. putting its thumb on the scale and. preventing you from hearing anything.

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