Rev. Billy Cerveny: Satan’s Attacks, Transgenderism, Seeing the Supernatural & Hearing God’s Voice

We've uh been close friends for almost. 40 years, 39 years since the mid 80s. And uh I would say you were the I didn't. imagine you as a priest. I would say. >> that makes two of us. >> Then about a month ago, your godfathered. one of my children. You performed the. wedding ceremony for that child. >> Awesome. >> One of the great moments of my life. How. did you get here? Like I don't really. know anybody who's had more jobs,

vision. I thought you were going to be a. philosopher, a country music star. I. Well, brother, if you had told me when. we met and we first started hanging out. that I'd end up doing what I'm doing. now, I'd have told you you got hit in. the head. >> Oh, I I'm aware of that. >> But, you know, God has a sense of humor. and a profound sense of irony. And uh. you know, over the years, I'd spent. >> profound sense of irony. >> It's true, though. It's true. And uh. >> it's a picture of his grace. You know, I.

I spent a lot of my years as a. journalist, as a and most of my. professional life in the music business. >> But I was living in Atlanta years ago. when I just started playing music. You. remember these those years? And I was. living in this sort of converted. greenhouse, a 400 square ft apartment. that the the floor was still slanted to. where they'd water the plants and the. water would still run out. And I. remember I had just gone into the music. business. I had given up a lot to do it.

And I was not in a good place. And uh. really asking a lot of questions like, God, what what is this? Like who am I? What is this supposed to be? And I I. remember that room. became a monastery in my life. And God. sort of grabbed me by the throat, as I. like to say, and just kind of peeled. back the curtain and just just began to. reveal things to me that about who he. was and who Jesus was that that I had.

heard my whole life, but they just never. made sense. I mean, I grew up in the. church. My father was a priest. I was a. was a bishop. >> He was a bishop. He was a bishop of. Florida. And uh you know it's like you. know it's like walking around your. parents house and you see fine pieces of. furniture that you just walk by so many. times you don't notice them anymore. That's kind of what faith became to me. as a young person. I I uh at least the. language of faith. >> and words like grace and forgiveness. And I had just heard it so much I just.

couldn't couldn't understand the. implications of them. until I went off in to college and uh. you know that's where we met but uh and. those were the prodigal years man you. know and uh. >> fair yeah very fair. The prodigal was a. wimp we uh we really went for it. No but. we uh. >> really did and uh but God was faithful. in all that time that through the. journalism and into back up to Atlanta. And I remember living in that in that uh.

apartment. and. falling on my knees and just saying, "Lord, either you are who you say you. are, or this is the biggest lie. perpetrated on humanity, and I'm going. to go with the you are who you say you. are." And he began to teach me this the. the truth of forgiveness and the truth. of grace and what it meant uh to walk in. Jesus and that what it meant to be saved. and what it meant to have a relationship. with him and to to have a soul that was.

worth far more than trying to satisfy it. with success in music or you know. success in whatever field it was. And uh. I remember sitting there thinking to. myself, "God, you're this good. Like, are you. this good? Are you this good?" And. just feeling him in my heart just. nodding silently with me. And I knew in. that moment my life was different. I. didn't know what it was going to look. like. And then when I moved to. Nashville, I played music for a bunch of.

years after that. But during that time, uh the Lord just. kept taking me deeper and deeper. And I. started getting involved, used the music. to go into ministry. And I did a lot of. work with a ministry called Young Life. And I did a lot of a lot of uh summers. were, you know, talking to kids about. the gospel. And during that time, I met. my wife out in Colorado. And it was. obviously a life-changing experience. And she's wonderful. And we began this. ask asking a question like, "Hey, what.

is what does God have for us? Like where. where is he taking us?" And the concept, the idea of seminary for me, I mean, it's like I said, you knew me and uh you. know, that was completely not in the in. the cards. >> No. And and the context is even bigger. from an outside point of view. Like you. are the son of a great man of a. well-known man. >> Mhm. >> A big figure. >> Mhm. >> Was at his funeral um this winter and it. was packed packed cathedral. It's a guy. who's a big big man. You look exactly.

like your dad, which is also kind of. weird. >> I hear that. and now you are dressed. exactly like you're so it's like. >> true. >> that's kind of a I don't know it's weird. to be the son of someone like that and. you don't think you're going to wind up. being that thing right. >> yeah no he was a great man I I uh but. that is part of it you know to to grow. up in that and to to watch my dad you. know he was a bishop so I'd watch my dad. process wearing a miter and all that. kind of you know but he was just my dad. yeah. >> you know so people say what was it like.

growing up under that I I don't know I I. didn't know any different and uh but I. do know that you know spiritually uh as. I grew and you know my father you know. like any son know cobbler son has no. shoes right. >> you think you know I'll figure it out on. my own and you you you leave and uh but. as I do what I do now and I look back. I'm humbled by uh the life he lived and. the wisdom he had. I love my dad and you. know, as you mentioned, he died, you.

know, a number of months ago and uh I. have such tremendous respect for what he. went through. Now that I'm in ministry, I look back and I and I'm like, how did. you do it? How did you pull this off? How did you hold a family together? How. did you, >> you know, sit in the the chair that you sat in and. lead a church in the way that you led a. church with all the things pulling on. you? And you know it when you have an. adult perspective, it brings a lot of. hum a lot of humility, right? Have you.

uh retroactively assessed your childhood. and said, "Oh, I wish I'd been more. grateful." Well, you know, the thing. about, you know, so my father was an. Episcopal bishop and the Episcopal. church is very eclectic, right? And so. my house was this revolving door of. different people. So like one weekend. we'd have you know a monk come stay on. our house and another week we'd have. some high church bells and smells. Anglican. another week we'd have some, you know, charismatics, you know, praying in tongues on our floor and and. I remember, you know, sort of getting. older and becoming a little self-aware.

and asking the question like, "What are. we, man?" Like, "What is this?" You. know, but it was this beautiful picture. in hindsight of. >> of the family of God and just how. diverse it was and how how many. expressions that was. And I that was an. invaluable experience. And my dad uh he. loved people very well in that way. He. led people very well. And I don't I I tell you this. There's. very few times in my life or many times. in my life I should say that I would be.

somewhere and I would introduce myself. to someone and it was not uncommon some. someone come to me go your last name is. Cody and they'd pull me aside and say. your dad you know telling me something. that he did for me and I'd be in some. random state or my mother who was you. know partner in ministry with him who's. an exceptional woman. >> Exceptional. >> Yeah. >> One of the rare people in the world. >> This is true. And uh but that really. really impacted me just thinking. one from my own lens that we want to. live lives that are impactful not just.

things that we we don't want to just. accumulate. We don't want to just you. know try to attain whatever mental. picture of success is but what does it. mean to leave an impact that where you. leave a place or you leave a person or. you that you say hey man these people. are impacted with the gospel and my dad. did that for sure. How would you ever. wake up and put on your collar and think. wow I I've like I guess all middle-aged. men realize I've become my dad but I. mean you literally have. There's a lot.

of times where I will it's again it's. surreal you know I think being a a. priest or doing this I think he probably. had the same experience is you're never. there's never a moment where you're not. at least I hope not you're struck by the. irony of it where you you you know what. I mean you put put your collar on and. and you you think to yourself like Lord. you really are calling me to do this cuz. I know me you know I know I know the way. I am I know my you know the internal.

realities for me. I know where I've. been, but that's, you know, much like my. dad, I think that was very much in front. of him most of his life, too. He would. always say you what he did and where he. was was just a was a poster of God's. grace. You know, he was a poster child. for God's grace. And I never fully. understood that until as now that I'm as. an adult, as a minister, I'm thinking to. myself, I absolutely, it's a picture of. grace. It's got to be one of life's. greatest blessings to really come to. understand your own father. That's. something that most men never get.

>> It's true. It's uh that's something all. men carry is, you know, the spent a. lifetime wrestling is the relationships. with their dads. And. >> who was this man who was the center of. my world? >> Yeah. >> Who this reference point? And I think. the, you know, we all of our lives, especially as little kids, you grow up. looking at your dad as these superheroes. and these guys that wear kind of a red. cape and then there's this moment that. you catch up with them and then you. realize them and you and then you see.

your parents humil or humanity. >> Yes. >> And you look at your dad and you see. that, oh, you're you know, you're you're. this paradox of of of. greatness and brokenness. And I think the real where the coin. dropped for me was when my dad began to. be able to share like these were the. struggles of my life. This is where it. was hard and this is where God met me. and this is where uh he just owned his. humanity in open ways and and uh. directly to you.

>> Yeah. >> That's pretty wonderful. >> It is wonderful. And I think that'll. that's a really freeing experience for a. son. >> It's a rare experience. >> Very rare experience. H Yeah. It's good. I think that you know as father you know. as you have children as well. and especially when you have a son uh. you know looking at your son it's like. staring in a mirror and there's moments. where they look at you and you realize. oh they're looking at me asking me what. it means to be a man. And you have those.

moments these sort of moments of. existential horror where you're like I'm. not sure I know myself. >> Yes. >> Right. And so most of us do our best. imitation of what we think manhood looks. like. And then we come to this place. where, you know, I believe that, you. know, to be a true blessing is is, you. know, we're not our job as parents is. not to create this picture where our our. children have to draw this perfect. representation or duplicate what your. version of manhood is. But the best. thing that we can show them is, hey,

this is what I this is this is what I. this this is my version of manhood and. this is where I've screwed it up and. this is where I've erased it and this is. a picture of God's grace. My job as a. dad is not to show my son what it means. to be a perfect man. It is to be to show. him what it means to be an imperfect man. in relationship with a God of grace and. to walk in ways that are that are I. think hopefully. nobly and honorably and that reflect the.

goodness of God but also to reflect the. humility of someone that knows what it. means to need a savior and to say look. we're not perfect and let me show you. like this is where God has stepped in. and moved in my life. this is where I've. blown it and this is where I've done. okay. But at the end of the day, uh you. know, we all fall on the on the mercy of. God. And I think that is a gift that we. can like like I said with my own son, that's a gift that we can give our own. children, you know, in the same way my.

dad gave to me towards the end of his. life. So the phrase dadbot is obviously. a grave slur. It's a kind of gender. racism, but it is kind of real because. staying in shape grows harder as you get. older. You work out, you eat, but you. just don't get the same results. And. that's where Mars Men comes in. Marsmen. is a natural supplement crafted to. support healthy testosterone levels. Testosterone, the chemical of life if. you're a man, is designed to support. weight management, exercise performance,

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always talk about how difficult it is. for men and women to understand each. other because they they think so. differently and they express themselves. so differently and it's the great joy. and frustration of marriage trying to. figure out what the other person is. saying. >> Yeah. >> But I don't think it compares to the. father and son relationship. I mean that. is. hard and poignant the communication. there. I think it's you know as men we. all we have these sort of core longings. that God hardwired into our hearts. You.

know one of them is you know be part of. something that's a a story that's bigger. than me or to be in relationship with. other men or to you know feel known or. seen and loved. But one of them is I. think foundationally is this idea that. we were created to receive the blessing. of a father. Yep. >> Period. You read the story of Jacob, like Jacob and Esau where Jacob steals. steals the blessing from his brother. >> and the whole picture of his life is him. going on this journey trying to to uh.

satisfy a heart that has been denied. this blessing of his father that would, you know, who showed preference to his. older brother. And he had stolen the. blessing which, you know, that was meant. for his brother and it ended up. poisoning his life. and he goes and he. amasses wealth and he gets wives and he. comes back and there's that famous scene. in the book of Genesis where he he's. sitting in the woods and the angel of. the Lord comes out and he begins to. wrestle the angel of the Lord and they. go and you know Jacob pins him and the. angel reaches out and dislocates his hip. with just the touch of the thigh and in.

that moment he realizes that I'm not I'm. not wrestling a person here and uh but. he's also realized that this is this is. a picture of unrestrained power. And. rather than him giving up, he says, "I'm. not going to let you go until you bless. me. I would rather paraphrase, I would. rather be torn limb from limb than to go. from this moment without the blessing of. a father." And he, you know, that's. where he changes his name to Israel. But. I think it's a picture of our hearts. that like we have we we need that in a.

way that is foundational. Totally agree. You know, and the problem is the rub is. and the problem for my children and. yours and all of our children is that, you know, I'm an imperfect man. I can't. I can't provide that blessing in the. full way. You know, I can't provide the. fullness of it. But like I was saying. earlier, that's part of the part of the way we do. bless them is that we we let that we. encounter them as adults and as they get. older, we begin to show them the. realities of our humanity and we point. them towards Jesus and we do that.

together. And that that becomes a. profound gift to our kids as they. encounter the blessing of God the. Father. I know that approval is just part of a. blessing, but it's it's the part that. people understand immediately. The. approval of your dad, like good job, son. >> Oh, yeah. That's like everything. >> It's true. >> Well done, good and faithful servant. >> Amen. Amen. >> Yeah. >> So, um, speaking of wrestling, there's a. phrase that you hear a lot, you never. used to hear, um, until about maybe six.

or seven years ago, and now it's on the. lips of every podcaster, and that's the. spiritual war. >> You know, the famous Ephesians quote, we. fight against not, you know, flesh and. blood, but against principalities. And. well, you're the preacher, you know, the. quote. >> Yeah. Uh what is that and what are its. manifestations? The spiritual war. >> Yeah, that's a small question. Um I I. like to start narrow. >> Yeah, thanks. Yeah. Uh you know, we. live, you know, on this side of a curtain. You.

know, we live in this temporal world, you and me, and the rooms we're in, but. you know, we all think of ourselves as. spiritual beings. That's a real common. thing that people say. But you know, we. were fashioned by God as spiritual. beings to be in relationship with him. And there really is this this curtain. that be behind which there is an entire. unseen realm that is God and the host of. angels and all that. And the.

um much like here, it's a it's it's a. world that is in rebellion as well. And. you know the irony is that the world we. experience now was was never meant to be. separated from that. When God created. all things, he created heaven and earth. to overlap. He wanted to walk with Adam. during the cool of the day. He wanted. that man and you know as his his. imagebearers were to be in relationship. with God in a in a very tangible way. But because of the way, you know,

because of sin and the brokenness of the. world, there's this this separation that. occurred. But I think now there really is a. spiritual battle as as you quoted. >> Wait, but you said you said behind the. veil, behind the curtain, the things we. can't see, the unseen realm. >> is God and angels. >> But it's not a civil war. I mean, there. there's turmoil there. It's war, right? >> It is. That's what the way scripture. describes it. And so, who is the war. between? >> I think it's between God and uh, you. know, the father, son, and the holy.

spirit, the creator of God. I think it's. he just in the way that God spoke all. things into this world into being. He. also created a a heavenly host. And you. read that story in the book of Genesis. with the serpent in the garden, right? You know, Genesis was where heaven and. earth overlaps and man walked with God. as we said just a second ago. But you. see this you see the beginning of a. divine rebellion there. You see this. this sort of mysterious serpent figure. which is, you know, we later learn is. this this Satan figure. and he rebelss.

against God because he's he's he's. prideful. He want to be equal with God. And if he's going to attack God, if he. wants to unravel God, what's what's. what's the first thing he's going to do? He's going to attack his plan, but he's. going to attack his image bearsers, >> right? >> And that plan that you Yeah. people and. that plan that you see that he hatched. in Genesis 3, it's the still the plan. that's happening now. There's a, you. know, we our war is not against flesh. and blood, but it's against these. principalities and these powers and. these things that come and they they.

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Um. I didn't grow up in a world where that. was considered real at all. And most. people I mean you probably did cuz. you're son of a bishop, but I'm not a. son of a bishop. And I I just never even. imagined any of that was real. >> Thought God was real, but I didn't think. there were actually like evil forces. floating around, unseen, impelling. people toward self-destruction. I just. didn't believe that. >> Mhm. >> Now it's like the most obvious thing. ever. >> It's obvious to you. I think it's. obvious to like everyone I talk to, but. self- selected group, of course. But.

Sure. I mean, what is what is the old. quote? You the greatest trick the devil. played is to convince humanity that he. doesn't exist. >> Yes. And I think that's part of. especially in America, you know, we we. don't live in a very, you know, we live. in such a binary, you know, uh, culture. where, you know, we don't we don't think. in terms of that generally speaking. We. do more recently. >> But, uh, >> materialist culture. >> Yeah. Materialist culture. Well said. And, uh, but how does that play out, you.

know? >> Yeah. What are the manifestations of it? Like, >> I mean, you can see on a large scale. You see it in the destruction of. marriages. You see it in the, you know, pornography. You see in you see it in, you know, addictions. You see it in. things like that. You. I find that I see those kind of attacks. happen in the areas most egregiously. and those areas that God values most. So. you want to know what God loves the. most, watch what Satan attacks the most.

aggressively. And what does God love the. most? You look at you look at the. creation story and all those things that. God set in motion in the beginning, marriage and ideas of masculinity and. gender and you know the the role of. humanity in the world, us being you know. God's imagebearers to to to create a. kingdom that that reflected his glory. Uh wait, I'm going to ask you to pause. So let's just go let's just go kind of. through the list forensically here. So. you said marriage number one. I mean,

not these aren't in a certain order, but. I'm just kind of riffing about marriage. >> Yeah, but the ones that come to mind. >> Yeah. Marriage. And then that's. explained as part of God's creation in. Genesis. >> Yeah. It's part of his creation mandate. You know, be fruitful and multiply. He. created, you know, when you when you. read the story of God creating man, he. he creates Adam out of the earth. And, you know, it's and he, you know, he he. empowers him and he brings all the. animals in front of him. And, you know, after each creation day, you hear God. say, he says what? He says, "It is good. It is good. It is good.

>> And the only thing that you read about. in the creation story that God says. wasn't good was man's aloneeness. He. says it's not good that man be be alone. >> And so what he So what does he do? You. know, he he brings all these animals and. there's there was not a helper that was. suitable for him. >> No. >> So he the dogs came close, I think. I. don't know. Maybe a close second, but. yes. >> Then he puts him to sleep and he pulls. the rib and he makes and he makes woman. He makes Eve. And there's the, you know, you hear this is the the first song ever. ever written in creation. Anytime you.

read the Old Testament and you see, you. read the text and all of a sudden you. see everything's indented. It's either. poetry or a song. Yes. And the first. words out of Adam's mouth were bone of. my bone, flesh of my flesh. I mean, he. he was smitten. But this was God's, you. know, marriage was not a human. invention. We I say that at every every. as part of our liturgy is the first. thing I say. And as I'm explaining. marriage at a ceremony in our liturgies, it wasn't a human invention. It was. God's idea. And it's something that, you. know, honored crosscultured, Christian.

or not, people, you know, it's it's. something that's played out. But it's. it's it's the it's the seed from which, you know, so much goodness flows, children, and you know, a missional uh. relationship into the world where you. love others and all that kind of stuff. So, yeah, it was God's idea. He loves. the idea. He loves it so much that that, you know, the marriage image is used. throughout scripture. Even the the the. the second, you know, when when the new.

heavens and the earth come together and. we we finally, you know, the God rolls. up the script and, you know, the end is. consummated, he describes it as a. wedding banquet, you know, and it's it's. a beautiful picture. He talks about. marriage as this picture of that he. gives us to be a picture of of Christ's. relationship with the church and the way. that husbands are to love their wives. the way that Jesus loved the church and. the wives to respect their husbands. But. it's this it's this beautiful image. So.

to say God uh that's something God. values would be one of the vast. understatements of the decade. And that. is why I think Satan attacks it so. viciously. >> So you see it constantly because you're. obviously a a priest. You give sermons, do the Eucharist, but you also are a. pastor to your congregants, people in. your church. >> Yeah. >> And you talk to them uh a lot.

>> So in general terms, how is marriage. under assault? I think uh. you marriage is marriage is well to. begin with marriage is hard because you. have two fallen people that come. together and and you know make all kinds. of demands on each other but I think. it's under assault and the idea that. just just the idea of marriage is under. assault. >> Yeah. Yeah. That's right. >> I mean just the notion to if you look at. Europe or I don't even know what the. percentages are but people aren't even.

getting married over there. >> Yeah. >> Um the divorce rates are are off the. chain. uh you know and then just the. idea of what marriage is I don't think. people see it in large in light of the. larger story that we were just. discussing but that's sort of on a macro. level but but when you talk to people. you talk to people who desperately want. their marriages to work to be happy to. continue but they're struggling with it. what are the things that you hear where. are the moments where you feel like this. is a a spiritual attack on husband and.

wife. >> yeah I think uh spiritual attack. It. takes, you know, I always say this is, you know, Satan attacks us in all sorts. of ways. Uh, but the most nefarious ways. is when he he he he seeks to deceive us, right? But the most nefarious ways that. he whispers in our ear is most of the. time he whispers in our own voice, right? And he whispers to us and we we. it's this self-t talk that we engage in.

And you know, again, I don't understand. the mystery of how this functionally. works. And. But it and it it stokes the the the. embers of selfishness of our pride. You. know, as you know, to steal a quote from. Tim Keller so famously said it, >> you know, if you want to know what the. your biggest problem in your marriage is. is selfishness. And it's always going to. be that. And it's this journey of two. self-oriented people. >> That's right. >> Learning what it means to die to self. And what spiritual attack looks like in.

that it's it's through selfishness and. it's through our own pride. And that can. bubble up in a lot of ways. It can. bubble up through uh adultery or it can. bubble up through people having, you. know, secret lives or pornography. addictions or just people losing sight. of each other, you know, and it's so. easy. I mean, you know, you have kids, you've lived a life, you know, how how. difficult it is in marriage to stay. connected and how uh people can uh you.

can stop talking or people and that's. part of just part of the discipline and. part of. >> I don't know how people do it. I mean, people with kids at home once once kids. leaves, you're like, I don't know how we. manage to stay married. You no matter. how much you love the person, you don't. have time to talk. >> Yeah. Yeah. And it's it's it's a it's. it's a challenge, man. It is a. discipline. One of the more common. things when people come in, I do a lot. of marriage counseling. People will come. in and they'll and you know, inevitably. one of the things they'll say is, you. know, we just have a hard marriage. And. I'll sit and I'll listen and I'll say,

dude, you just got a marriage. Like. marriage is hard. Again, it's it's two. fallen people learning me to come. together and find out, you know, what. does it mean to love you and to pursue. you and to lay down my life for you and. love love you more than I love myself? As it said in Ephesians 5, you know, what does it mean? You know, husbands, love your wives like Christ loved the. church. Well, how did Christ love the. church? It wasn't de make, you know,

clinging to his, you know, his authority. and, you know, hammering hammering his. points home though, you know, there were. moments, right? But it was really laying. his life down. And it's a great picture. that we think of like what is love and. marriage? Uh well it's a lot of things. but one thing it's not it's not fair. right if you want fairness go get a. business partner but if you want to love. someone in marriage the question is hey. how do I when I feel wrong or I feel. hurt or I feel in a place where I feel.

unseen like what the world would tell me. is I have every right to not love you. anymore until I get what's mine but what. the Christian call to marriage. especially for husbands is no. Yeah, you. know, you play hurt and you continue to. love and you still move forward and you. and you still, you know, wash feet and. you still love your wife and. and that's that's the call and it's it's. a call to it's a you again to lay your. life down. And it's ironic talking about.

uh marriage and speaking about it in any. authoritative way because it's topics. like marriage or topics like prayer. They're topics that you riff on but you. never really feel like you have a handle. on it. >> Right. Right. like sure let me tell you. about my wisdom on marriage but it's. it's because I'm like I you know you're. always daily because and that's how you. I think you keep a a humble posture but. uh I've never had any problem with. humility having three daughters but um. it just kind of is baked in you know. >> it's true but you know but you never.

feel like you have you can wrap your. arms around it fully um because it is a. mystery and uh and it constantly. requires a humility which you know. you've known me a lot a lot of years and. that's not something I come by naturally. and most people don't but but it's also. God's I would say uh the profound gift. of marriage is it is the crucible with. which you uh God uh transforms your. lives if you let it you know and. ironically it is those those moments of.

of brokenness and restoration where. those transformations come from uh h. tend to happen the most profound. >> Of course, it's the crappy things you're. grateful for. And it's those places, too, that you know, I've seen marriages. d I've seen marriages shattered by. adultery. that have because of the willingness and. humility of the two people to invite God.

in the middle of it and to listen and to. walk. I have seen those people emerge. with marriages that they'd only dreamed. they could have. actually. >> Oh, 100%. 100%. >> Like full-blown cheating. >> Yeah. No question. And they would both sincerely say under. polygraph, "I'm happier in my marriage. than I've ever been.". >> No question. >> Really? >> Yeah. God works all things together for. the good of those who love him. And if. you let him, if you're willing to do it,

I'm I'm don't don't don't let me. sugarcoat it. It's it's a brutal and I. would never suggest that as a journey. No. No one wants to go there. No one. wants to go there. But for those that. that I've seen marriages heal in ways. that you couldn't imagine for such. egregious pains and so many grie and. I've seen marriages disintegrate for far. less because people aren't willing to. walk in and uh with humility and and. look at themselves and they're just too.

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that is just the story of. all of our relationships with other. people. It's like it's always someone. else's fault. That's like the default. setting in most and certainly in me. >> Yeah. >> Like I'm just, you know, all that, you. know, I can't believe they did that. It's just the idolatry of our hearts. And the part of that idolatry is my own. self-image. And the thing about idols is. this. You can never see your idols until. they're smashed. And there's no better. place to smash the the idolatry of self. than in a marriage. Cuz you know where.

you're like, well, I think and you know, no. I mean, your your your wife knows. your your wife is the most dangerous. person in your world. >> That's for sure. >> Because she knows you and you're the. most dangerous person in her world. because you know her. You know, you know. her her wounded places, you know where. she's strong, you know where she's weak, you know her insecurities, you know her. sense of humor, you know all the things. So, you can either, you know, a few. words from you. I mean, if you came to. me and said, you know, insulted me in.

some way, you know, it might hurt my. feelings and, you know, we're we're. really close friends, so it might you. know, it it would kind of run. >> I think it would wound you pretty bad. >> Yeah. But but if my wife said the same. thing, >> dude, I'm with you. >> I would be I wouldn't you know, it would. it would You can't get out of bed, right? You're, you know, you were coming. in, you know. So, >> um, but it just shows the power you have. over. >> She's got a loaded gun. There's no. doubt. >> But you also have such a tremendous. power to bless one another and to raise. one another. The way I always say like. you you see.

the glory self in the other like what. does it mean to see who God is trying to. call forward and to draw them forth? And. that's hard, man. That's especially hard. in conflict where you're sitting there. and you're you're at odds and you you. know you're angry or something like. that. And of course when you're angry. you feel justified or otherwise you. wouldn't feel angry, right? That's the. that's kind of the the the foundation of. anger is our self-justification. But the discipline and the spiritual. maturity in that is how do I still reach. in there and and see that glory self.

with that person and and and draw them. forward and to see them as a child of. God as someone that I actually love as. someone as precious and it's very hard. to remember. I have a picture of my wife. I have a picture of my wife of her. She's probably three years old. It's a. cute kid, beautiful. And it's stuck in. my Bible in Psalm 139, which is the. psalm about, you know, you're fearfully. and wonderfully made when I wo knit you. together in your in your mother's womb. And it just talks about the glory of. creation. And and I do that on purpose.

because that's what I I need to remember. in our marriage. It's the thing that. that at any moment cuz I love her deeply. and uh I want to love her and I want to. and and it's really important that in. order to do that well, you need to. consistently see the value and the glory. of this person that you're inextricably. tied to at this point. >> Amen. >> Yeah, I agree. You mentioned pornography. as a threat to marriage. It's like one.

of those things I think we're just like. maybe 10 years too old to really under. or speaking for myself to really. understand the magnitude of it. >> Mhm. >> How often does pornography. arise in marriage counseling as a huge. problem? Oh man, I I I think it's hard to. overstate how. pervasive it is now. If I meet with a.

man, like take marriage counseling out. of it, just just men in general. I I assume that's in the mix until. proven otherwise. Actually, >> yeah. And that's not an indictment, but. I just it's so pervasive. I'm safer to. assume that's the case that that's. somehow part of the narrative than uh. than than it's not because it's it's. it's you know we walk around with these. little you know apple porn boxes that.

people have in their hands you know and. they. >> and you know could you imagine being a. teenager now a teenage boy growing up. where you know the the the greatest. you know temptation in your life is. literally three button clicks away at. any moment. and what that's doing to the hearts and. minds of young men and what it's doing. to their concept of marriage and what. that's doing to their concept of. sexuality. You know, we're Gen X. You. know, we're something like you and I. came along and you want to do something.

like you had to work for it. You know, that's not like that. It is literally. force-fed to these young men. >> But you're only telling one half of the. story. The other half is Tim Cook's a. billionaire. So, there has been a big. upside to this. >> Yeah. Yeah. If you're Tim Cook. Yeah. No, it's crazy we haven't had a. revolution. Um, >> I pray it's coming, but I don't think. that will ever happen apart from. revival. >> I think that's right because it's got to. and it's it's it's a uh it's. again, not to belabor the point, but I.

think what that does, I think we going. back to what is spiritual warfare, you. know, what is how does it play out on. practical levels? I think that's a. profound evil. is trying to. >> a you you know anything you know the. earlier you can damage someone sexually. just think about what that does so it's. so real totally just the way that plays. out. >> you get stuck in patterns that are men. do anyway I don't know about women. >> in human sexuality it's malleable. >> right it's a yeah. >> it's not assigned at birth.

>> yeah well it is and it isn't in the. sense that it is that that what I mean. is our our sex you know our sexuality as. we live it out you know our sex is. assigned at our gender is assigned and. it's obviously a god breathed you know. holy call and you know when we talk. about things like pornography and the. abuses of pornography and things like. that it's really easy to get start get. get your wheels caught into this sort of. dark melancholy aspect of it but you. know you got to flip it over and first. see like you know the glory of what God. designed when he designed human.

sexuality when he when he called people. and created man and women to be sexual. beings together right it's a it's a. glorious it's a beautiful thing it's a. It's this. In fact, you know, people. often criticize Christians as saying, you have such a low view of sexuality. I'm like, you you've got to be kidding. me. We have a we have a such a higher. view of sexuality than the world. Like, this isn't this is it's it's a fire that. it just needs to be kept into the. fireplace, >> right? It's not a consumer product, however. >> No, it's not a consumer product. It's. not a it's not an adult playground that.

we just go and make Tim Cook rich. But. it has profound spiritual impacts for us. if we cut against the grain of how God. designed us for that. So when we talk. about what you said, you know that what. we you were asking about like how does. that spiritual warfare play out in those. those these cont or in our world in our. life and practical boots on the ground. level like that's a that's a perfect. example. the it's it's the it's the. assault on what God values that you know. the marriage and the and human sexuality.

because it it knows that a if you can. twist that it will it will turn us fully. inward. It turns us we become fullblown. consumers. We become a slave to. appetites and we become. and I think the again going back to the. the beautiful thing that you see is that. when the Lord heals in that place, you. see so much you see just the power of. redemption and that and watching men and.

women uh be restored and feel like. they're washed clean, that they're not. shameful or object objects of shame and. uh it's a beautiful thing that that God. has blessed me to be a part of as I walk. through. >> So what is it? Um so pornography was. sold internet pornography and I kind of. remember this. I was married by the time the internet. arrived but I remember. >> we're old. >> Well you're old but I I feel fairly.

young. >> Yeah. >> Spry thanks to my consumption of alp. nicotine products. >> product. Um, no, we are old and but there is some. advantage in that and that you sort of. remember how things were sold when they. first arrived on market. And I remember. people saying, well, this is going to be. the end of rape and sexual assault. because there's a healthy outlet for. sexuality in the in the form of. pornography. People said that. I mean, I. remember when they said that. >> That's the dumbest thing I've ever. heard. I I I don't remember that, but I.

just But that is. >> Well, the internet would make us free. and inform us when actually people like. don't even read anymore and like we're. surveiled constantly. So, let's we're. going to put this fire out by by pouring. gasoline on. >> No, I totally agree. For the last 50. years or so, oil has been priced pretty. much exclusively in US dollars. It's. called the petro dollar. And the point. was to give the dollar, our currency, built-in demand around the world. And. it's worked pretty well, but it's. changing fast. Saudi Arabia and other. Gulf nations are increasingly selling. oil trades in Chinese Juan or other.

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like three points over spot. Battalion. metals.com/tucker. is the address. Battalion.com/tucker. to learn more. But I just didn't really think about it. at the time um. and at all. but uh or really about. anything worth thinking about at that. time in my life. But anyway, fast forward 35 years, like what damage. does it do? So, you're a married man.

who's got a porn habit. Why is that bad? Like, in practical terms, how does that. divide you from your wife and family? >> We we could spend the next three hours. talking about this, but. yeah. No, in simple terms. one, it it. twists your view of of. sexuality and it twists your view of. your spouse. And what I mean by that is, you know, people say, "Oh, it's the. objectification woman." People say that. all, but it truly does do that. And you. know, women, you might not know this,

women's sexuality is very different than. a man's. >> What? Yeah, that's right. And uh, you. know, >> they don't just get drunk and horny and. like hook up with random people. >> They're not big dumb animals, right? They're they're and uh it doesn't mean. it's less important for them. >> I agree. >> And God fashioned it for and that's. another cliche that people say, you. know, oh, sex just means more for a man. than it does for a woman. Actually, that's not true. It's not more important. for a man than it is for a woman. Men. just go about it differently. And and. for a man to understand the value of it. from a woman, it requires us to slow.

down and to to have that conversation. and understand it and to listen in a way. that we aren't naturally wired to do or. we don't feel like we can do in our you. agree with that. So I agree with it more. than almost anything I've ever heard. It. requires us to slow down. That is number. one. >> Absolutely. And um. >> my father always said that. Slow down. >> Your dad was a wise man. But um. >> on that topic he was wise. >> Yep. I I am. So um. but yeah, so the first thing that it. does is it twists that right you begin.

it presents this these women as these. caricatures of male sexuality and I. think that's not fair and I think it. does a tremendous amount of of of. damage. That's one. Two and again this. is not an exhaustive list but two it. it's it pushes men into isolation and. you know porn pornography addictions or. hidden sexuality these are things that. men you know they don't do out in the. open. They they they you know they do in. in secret. They do it in in uh they do. it in private and they don't tell.

anybody about it. Right. And the number. one tool that Satan will do use is. isolation. >> Yes. >> He will push men into the shadows. because what happens there? That's where. shame can grow unfettered. >> and that's where you know people feel. broken more you know more perverse and. where they become more broken and become. more perverse which makes you feel more. and it's this vicious feedback loop that. it begins to occur. do men, you know, uh.

they think they're, you know, it always, you know, it's interesting that always. starts with, oh, I can handle this and. it becomes this sort of, you know, I'll. smoke a cigarette a day, but the, you. know, pornographic version of it, but. before they know it, it becomes a. consuming uh a consuming thing in their. lives. And uh so it it that's it drives. them into the shadows which creates. isolation which creates shame which. creates you know a a you know uh a false.

sense of self as you walk into marriage. And what is marriage? Marriage is as it. was designed. You read you know Genesis. chapter 2. What does it say? He he made. right after the passage of you know bone. of my bone flesh of my flesh. It says. they were naked and unashamed that they. stood before each other. That's about. sex, but that's also about a spiritual. heart posture that men and women have in. front of each other that is. all that I am, all that I, you know, seen and unseen. I am I am here before. you.

>> That's right. >> And pornography goes to war with that. and pushes men into the shadows. And. women, too, by the way. This is this is. not I mean it is certainly more more. dominated by men but what we've seen. over the years is that this is something. that women contend with as well. Um. easier for me to talk about cuz I'm a. man and you know probably holds more. credence but it's uh but it's very real. So you know. creates caricatures of what sexuality is.

creates charact caricatures of women. It. >> it screws up your sex life doesn't it? >> It Yeah. So it and and then the other. thing is is what we said again, you. know, our human sexuality, our you know, our sex drives, they're malleable, right? And you feed that into those sort. of those, you know, perversions or those. you marinate in that kind of stuff, it. will take you places you don't want to. go. >> My father when I was little said to this.

is so over the top, but I remember it. It was my favorite line ever. I never. say it because it's so over the top, but. I remember driving in the car with him. and he was telling we were like eight. and 10 or something and something about. pornography came up. He goes, "Yeah, it's a really bad idea. It makes you. perverse." And he said, "Your sexuality. is like a grain of on of wood. So if you. take your fingernail and run it along a. kitchen a wooden kitchen table, it gets. deeper with every pass." And he said, 'If you get into that, my father's very.

pro-s sex, like very pro-sex, but he. goes, "It's a dark road, and you keep. getting it gets weirder and weirder and. weirder, and the next thing you know, you can't get it up unless you're. wearing a chicken costume." That's what. he said. I have no idea what that means, but it stayed with me for 45 years. Like, a chicken costume. >> Your dad had a chicken costume? >> I don't know. No, he did not have a. chicken costume. He was very proud of. not having a costume, but. >> I understand. >> That's hilarious. >> I think he may have phrased it that way.

It was just so evocative that it like. never I wish my brother was here. He. would confirm this like I never stopped. thinking. >> I knew your dad. I I believe that 100%. I know your your dad was awesome. Your. dad was awesome. >> You can't get enough unless you're. wearing a chicken costume. Anyway, uh so. but that's the kind of what you're. talking about. I I do I think it takes. you again it takes you places. It's it's. the law of diminishing returns. >> Mhm. >> Right. So, you know what? It's it's it's. like, okay, you need a this amount of. heroin to begin with, and before you. know, you know, you quadrupled the dose.

And it's it's all about the dopamine. hit. You know, you it's the same. Our. sexuality is no different. >> that it when it's taken out of context, when it's taken into those places, when. it's used in a way that God did not. intend it, like God God's design for it. is not to be prudish and to keep you. from having a good time. Like, >> of course, >> right? I mean, and it it's the idea of. like how can this flourish and become. something that doesn't that that is life. producing and literally, but also that. breeds intimacy between a man and a.

woman that breeds uh connection between. a man and a woman that breeds a sense of. just wonder and and awe and just beauty, right? And that was his design for it. >> And when you step out of that boat, man, like it does everything I just. described, it does the opposite of that. You know, if there's one thing I could. tell young people, it's it's protect. that with all that you are because the. world is lying to you. It's lying to you. about about, you know, the frivolous, oh, it's no big deal. No, it is a big.

deal. It has profound spiritual. implications for you. It has it has it. can take you places that one day you. wake up and you say, I I don't want to. be here and I don't know how to get. back. Right? There is the good news. I'll say this if you have they have been. there and I' I've seen this over and. over again you know oh you know it's I'm. damaged goods now no you're not like. this is God uses the broken things of. this world right. >> and he's I mean I I the places I've been.

the places you've been the things we've. done in our lives like we're God. is all about the prodigals. and there's no there's no one that is. beyond redemption and healing and God. loves to restore that because God loves. that Right? It ain't fun, right? It's. not a place you want to go, but if. that's where you are and that's what. you've done, it's okay. There's a God of. grace that that the reason, you know, Jesus doesn't put see that and that and. that's why Jesus steps back from the. table. Actually, that's the reason Jesus.

came because we misuse sexualities. >> because we, you know, we we we're bathed. in our own shame because we we make bad. decisions because we're so committed to. our own self-destruct. That's why he. calls him self-destruction. That's why. he calls himself a savior and not a, you. know, a self-help guru because cuz I I. need a savior. I need someone to reach. down and pull me up and and save me from. me. >> Yeah. >> Right. It's not just Yes. There's a on a. theological level, he saves me from sin. and he washes me clean and my, you know,

my standing before God and all of those. things which is deep and profound and. eternal and, you know, worthy of. reflection for, you know, thousands of. years. But. when you boil it down, he really came to. save me from me. >> Yeah. >> You know, from my own devices and where. I would go. I mean, you think of. the number of things that God has saved. you from that you're not aware of,

right? >> There's a long list of things I am aware. of. >> Right. But so, think about how dramatic. the thing how dramatic the list is that. he saved you from that you didn't even. get to see, right? and and. you know even the way he's restrained. your own appetites in those places that. you didn't even know you know and uh so. yeah going back to your question I do. think pornography it's evil and it's. done so much damage and you know as you. said I think there's going to be a I. don't know what the word you use like a.

revolution against it but I don't think. that's ever going to happen until we. have an actual revival again which man. we need that but we have to we've lost. the plot and you lose the plot in. sexuality talking about that you lose. the plot of the the gospel story the. creation story you and your story just. kind of becomes about your narrative of. h my sex life then you know it it. becomes a very dangerous thing when you. read it in light of like what we're. talking about you you took you know we.

just kind of touched on it but you read. the Genesis story and God's creative. intention for that stuff all of a sudden. you become invited into into this larger. epic tale that becomes about something. so much more. And what you again your. soul is of so much more immense value. than you ever imagined it was. And it's. to be to to be a part of something. that's so much more incredible than. anything that you could ever cobble. together on your own. Why wouldn't you. want that? Right?

You You're the person who put the. gender stuff in context for me when this. first happened. people questioning whether gender is. real. You know, sex distinctions are. real. Yeah. This has been going on for. >> 70 years. Of course, it's the core. premise of of second-wave feminism that. really there's no difference between the. sexes. So, I obviously rejected that. But then it became much more radical 10. maybe 10 years ago. Doesn't it strike. you but even in every context.

that you know be it secular or in church. context when people argue you know there. are no gender distinctions you know you. can make theological arguments you know. biblical arguments whatever but just. simply saying that like hey before 70. years ago literally no one agreed with. us like you can't really find a place. that where so in all human history. >> in all human history so I'm not going to. even argue I'm right or I'm wrong. But. doesn't that make you want to pump the. brakes a little bit?

>> No, because we have atomic weapons now. And I'm to this. Let me just indulge my. theory, which I can't control myself. from talking about. >> Run, baby. >> You've heard it before, but I just think. I think nuclear weapons, which I don't. think were created by people. Sorry. I. don't care how many movies they make. about it. I don't believe that. >> Oppenheimer. >> Yeah. Okay. I wouldn't watch that crap. I wouldn't let that into my head for one. second. But anyway, because it's all. lies. But anyway, sorry now I'm getting. really crazy, but it's all true. What. I'm saying is true. I think once man.

possessed the power or believed he. possessed the power to destroy. everything that's alive. I think that he. rejected God. Like that is kind of like. reject that's rejection of God. And like. everything changed after that. People. became convinced they were gods and. that's when the true craziness started. It's not the ' 60s, the 60s or the, you. know, Obama years or whatever you want. era. It's like postnuclear weapons.

That's what I believe. So anyway, but. the gender thing kind of exploded maybe. 10 years ago with this like really we're. going to assign the child a gender or. let him choose his gender or whatever. And I was like confused, but I thought. it was so crazy that I just didn't take. it seriously at all. And you're the one. who made me take it seriously. And you. said, I'll never forget it. You said. this is a direct attack on God's design. as described in Genesis. So, can you. flesh it out a little bit? This is not. like an accident like this was always. going to happen is basically what you.

said. Yeah. Well, when you read the Genesis narrative, right? You know, again, God God, you. know, in the beginning, God creates the. heaven and the earth, and you have this. picture of this sort of chaos that. happens and the and God's spirit hovers. over the water. You know, the Hebrew, it. it's it's it's the it's the hovering is. almost like a mother bird's wings. hovering over the chaos. And he begins. to speak things into order. And you. know, you got day one and he creates. light and he's, you know, as it grows,

he separates the land from the from the. waters and he throws the stars in the. sky and he shoots this fish in the sea. and the animals come and then each time. you see each created order or each. creative day, what you're watching is it. grows in glory. It grows in complexity, but it glow it grows in glory. And each. time God is it's good. It's good. And. then you get to day six where God. creates humanity and it's this sort of. crowning explosion of creation. The the.

the largest expression of his glory. actually the crown jewel of creation was. the last thing which was created and. that was those were women. That is the. final most glorious creation and and. >> that's certainly how I feel. >> Yeah. And that's the way the story needs. to be read. Right. So if people just. side note is you know women always it's. and I I have sympathy for it for there's. much the church needs to apologize for. for the ways that they've hurt women. over in the past but I can tell you from.

a from as a as a Bible nerd I can tell. you that that is the fault of man and. not of God because the the the biblical. story elevates women in a way that that. that the world never would they would. anyway. So back to our point. So in this. crown jewel of creation with humanity, he could have expressed it in any way. and he and he and he created man as he. created man and he created woman. You. know they are they are they he created. masculinity and he created femininity.

This is not a human construct. It is not. a social construct. Of course there are. things that that you know cultures and. you know you know cultural moments can. shape the way those are expressed but. generally speaking masculinity as we. understand it's it's not just oh you're. a dude it's a holy calling. It's a holy. calling and as God says you are his. imagebearer in this world and women are. his imagebearers that come together to. create this fuller image of what God is.

to be expressed and rolled out into the. world as their image. We it would. behoove us to understand what is this. thing called masculinity that I've been. saddled with or I've been I have been. called to what is femininity that I have. been called to? and is as men uh I think. well to your point I think that's a that. that you cannot there's many people that. make theological arguments against what. I just said and okay you can make many.

theological arguments you just can't. make a biblical argument against what I. just said you just can't read the the. scripture in any just intellectually. honest way and just not see that that's. just the way it is and also. experientially it just. >> well I know it's true experientially. Because God also doss out punishments. for eating the fruit. And he says to. Adam, you're going to live by the sweat. of your brow. It's going to be hard for. you to make a living. You got to work. >> Thorns and thistles, futility. Yeah.

>> And he says to Eve, two things. One, child birth is going to be hard for you. And two, your desire is going to be for. your husband. >> Rule over them. >> And he's going to rule over you. And. those are the things that men and women. resent. I've noticed, you know, men need. to work. They derive satisfaction and. self-respect from work, but they also. hate to work because it's hard. >> Women, of course, most women love. children, but they they fear child birth. and that is suffering. And there is a. sense in which women resent.

Men hate work and women might resent. that stuff. We can we can do that. But. when we lose the plot, but when we step. back into the story, right, when we. through, you know, when we when we. encounter God in a real way through the. through the through the gate of Jesus, we go through and begin to see the. redemptive story. But when we see the. creation story and the creation purpose. like we just described and you realize, wait, this is a holy calling. I'm. actually what what was God when God. called Adam? Work was. work didn't happen after the fall.

God's purpose was work for Adam. He. said, "I want you," again, we said. again, God created Edom, Eden, which was. this holy place, this, but the rest of. the world wasn't like Eden. And when he. says to Adam, I want you to exercise. dominion. What he's saying is not just. I'm putting you in charge. What he was. saying is, I'm giving you a job and I. want you to take what is in Eden and I. want you to take it all around the rest. of the world. I want you to turn the. world into into this. I want you to drag.

the realities of this out and create go. be ruth ruthlessly human in relationship. with God. Go create cities and art and. cuisine and all these things like. become, you know, become build out the. kingdom of God, right? And when you see. that when Jesus came talking about the. kingdom of God, it wasn't plan B. He's. grabbing plan A and just saying that. we're we're reinstitut. It's all about. that. And so when you see in Revelation. 21, which is the end of the story, where. it says, "Behold, I see, you know, the.

new heavens and the new earth are coming. down, and behold, I'm making all things. new." And and and it's this glorious. picture of of the consummation of all. things. That holy city that's coming. down, that was the city that Adam was. supposed to have built. And all of a. sudden, where Adam failed, Jesus is the. second Adam. He succeeded and he came. and he made this happen. Why does that. matter? How does this go into to our uh. this question about man being working. and you know uh and all the the sense of.

futility? Not only is masculinity a holy calling, but the work that we're we are to put. our our hands to when we have now a. gospel lens. When Jesus says the the. kingdom of God is at hand, we get to be. participants now in in the original. mandate that how do we bring and build. the kingdom of God here and now? and all. of a sudden animates. I don't care if. you're a plumber or you're a lawyer or. you're a, you know, baker, a candlestick. maker, that all of a sudden we are now.

participants in something that God is. doing that we get to bring the realities. to bear in our world. And that that. sense of futility uh I think when we we. can maintain that perspective, I don't. think our sense of futility can stand. or it goes to war with our sense of. futility. Does that make sense? >> It does make sense. Can I add one liner. note, please? Eden was what? Physically, it was a land of rivers and trees. Great question. I'm a I'm a Genesis.

nerd, so I'm going to go here. >> Rivers and trees though, correct? >> Uh, rivers and trees. >> Okay. So, Eden was also, I believe it. says in Ezekiel, it describes it as on a. mountain, which we is kind of a lost. fact. Um, so rivers, trees, and. mountains. >> and a place where God, the divine and. the human and and the human over. overlapped and and dwelled together. >> So maybe there's a reason that when. people are in office buildings, they. feel differently from the way they feel.

when they're next to rivers hanging out. Yeah. >> And maybe anyone who destroys rivers and. trees is on the wrong side. >> The Lorax might have had a point. I. really believe that. I believe that. I. believe that trees are really important. They're all over the Bible. I think. cedar has a special place. But you look. at it. >> It's true. But you you but you when you. read again going back to the creation. story, >> each creation's day after God made the. trees and what did he say? He says it's. good. It was good in and of itself.

because he found pleasure in Amen. Not. just for its utility. Not to but it's. also. >> um. >> not just for its utility. That's not. just for it utility. It's for and so. we're when Adam was to exercise. dominion, it wasn't like what are you. going to kill and cut down? It was how. are you going to nurture? Exactly. How. are you going to take this and bring it. everywhere? Well, that's why when people. get in that kind of relationship with. nature, they feel a deep satisfaction. and a peace that is clearly from God.

>> 100%. >> So when you deny people that, that is. when you deny them beauty, when you. destroy beauty, God's created beauty, that is not good. I just preached on. this the other night, but is that the. idea um. of. redemption and the idea of recreation. when you Genesis I think it's 3:17 where. it says talking about you know thorns. and thistles and we'll push back one of. the lines is it says cursed is the. ground because of you God speaking and. what he's saying there is because of.

your sin you Adam who I've put in in. charge of the created order as my vice. regent because of your sin now it. it is paid forward and it has corrupted. the the creation. So the the earthquakes. and the the the fallenness of this world. is a product of the fallenness of man. So when you read in Romans 8, it talks. about the creation groans and the way. the creation groans because you know.

scripture tends to personify, you know, the birds and the the mountains and all. and it says the creation groans, right? Yeah. Of course. uh in Psalm 19 you know. all of creation sings of God's glory but. the creation groans but in the same way. it is it the the redemption of creation. is going to be tied to the redemption of. man and the redemption of humanity. So. as we are are have been recreated and. are living out that recreation and one. day we'll stand in the full realities of.

our recreation so will the world. It is. tied to when Jesus came to redeem all. things. He wasn't just talking about. people. All things, the cedars, as you. just said, and the trees and the rivers. and the the And I can't wait for that. day. I agree with that. But on the way. to that day, we I think I know cuz I. experienced this this morning. So, I. watch the sun come up. You can get. flashes of it. >> That's right. >> All around us. >> And it's our it's it's and we can we can.

participate in that. That's, you know, behold, the kingdom of God is at hand. What is what is Jesus doing in those. moments when in in the New Testament. when he we talked about this last night. when Jesus is every time you see Jesus. doing a miracle? Like what is Jesus. doing in that moment? Is he just doing a. trick? Is he trying to to sort of flex. his like God muscle and show him like. this is what I'm capable of? Is this a. proof? I mean, there's some of that. where he's like pulling back the curtain. and revealing his divinity and and who.

he is and where people sit back and he. stills the wind in the waves and people. aren't aren't just quit asking like who. are you? They're now asking like what. are you? >> Yeah. >> Right. But when Jesus, one of the things. that he's doing in those moments where. he is, you know, he heals the heals the, you know, uh, the hemorrhaging woman or. he take raises Gyrus's daughter from the. dead or he calls Lazarus out of the. tomb. What he's doing is he is reaching. forward and he's grabbing the realities. of the new heavens and the new earth.

that we will one day live in the full. experience and he's planting them in the. moment and he's giving people a. foretaste of like this is what the. kingdom of God is. This is what the. king. So you know the the the journey of. redemption and recreation for uh is not. about how do we get man out of earth. into heaven. The journey the ultimate. consummation is how do we get heaven and. earth back together. And that's and. those miracles that we begin to see is. the miracles we were just talking about.

are is Jesus doing that very thing. And. to your point where you say I stand out. there and I see pops of this. We now get. to participate in that. So, we get to. bring the realities of the new heavens. and the new earth. How does that look? Well, here's a new when when we bring. when we bring. comfort to someone who is lost in grief. When I sit with a couple who is. shattered by adultery or their marriage.

is in or someone is on their deathbed. and they are scared and they feel alone. and you sit and you pray with them and. you're bringing those realities to bear. When you feed the hungry, when you love. the the very difficult to love, you. know, that's our call. When you plant a. garden, right? I know these are kind of. oh come on no really when you plant in a. garden like what are you doing that's. that's an ancient call I mean that's. what Adam did you know that's what Noah.

did you know he was a v he was a you. know he he was a a farmer he grew grapes. you know this is but we are. participating in in the in. >> anyone who doubts that anyone who would. mock the idea of garden planting as a. profound act is just not hasn't lived. long enough. >> yeah I'm I'm not very good at that I'm I. watered my wife's garden the other night. she had to go and she's like, "Will you. water my garden?" Took me like 40. minutes, by the way. But by the end, I. was like, "Man, that was like amazing.

That was amazing. All I did was. hilarising. my dominion with a hose. I'm with you, man.". Um, so the gender the question of whether. God created male and female. >> This is not some minor question. >> No. >> And liberating people from the. constraints of gender is probably not. actually liberation. Is that what you're. saying? >> No. It's I think it's it's a it's a.

confusion. And it's sad, you know, and I. in fairness, let me let me uh take it. from a non political kind of lens of it. cuz it's like I know that's a a cultural. move, but just take it down to a you. know, there are people that and I have a. deep heart for that. People that have. profound confusion in that place. >> for sure. >> and and brokenness in that place and. that feel very lost in that place and. feel very and the way Christians talk. about it in a sort of argumentative way, right?

>> You know, like, oh, you're right. We're. wrong. I'm like, dude, that's that, you. know, we can fight a sort of air war, a. theological war, and have these kind of. debates, but at the end of the day, you. got to remember like we're talking about. people here, >> right? >> Right. And there are legit people that. are hurting and are asking real. questions in this place that have. >> a lot of them, like not a small number. >> That's right. And and I think one of the. disservices in the church that we can do. is because we get so consumed in the. theological debate that you know we we. lose the trees.

and and see the forest right and when. you look at the trees these are people. question what would you say to someone. who was in your care just another human. being your neighbor as defined by the. New Testament who was questioning his or. her gender. What would you say to that. person? Presumably, you don't want that person. to have to question and you don't want.

the person to, you know, take the next. steps, but you love that person. So, you're probably not screaming at the. person. So, what do you say? Well, I'd tell you the first thing I. would say is um well, the first thing. that I I would walk with a profound. humility. because I know that I'm stepping into a. story that has uh that involves a. tremendous. amount of shame and a sense of isolation.

because this is something this person. undoubtedly. had been contending with far longer at a. far younger age than. >> in solitude. >> in solitude which is heartbreaking to. think of a child asking theological. questions for which they shouldn't be. asked have to contend with like am I. going to hell am I this am I like that's. that's like I I could I weep thinking. about that and so my heart posture in.

that is one of deep and profound. compassion. because they didn't they didn't ask for. that. >> Yeah. >> And it is and for those that sit on the. opposite side of a theological fence to. just come at this with hammer and tongs. like you might win an argument but bro. you are shattering people and you are. winning no hearts in that place. That's. right. It is the it is the God's. it is God's kindness that leads to.

repentance. And we would, excuse me, we. would be wise. to remember his kindness to us before we. ever step into a conversation like that. So, what would I say? >> And by his kindness to us, you mean. they're no better than than me? >> Exactly. I mean, I'm no better than. them. >> That's exactly right. >> Hey, what what lottery did I know I'm. saying? Like, do I know what you're. saying? We were talking last night.

Wait, we single this issue off, dude. And it's like like okay but I will like. somehow wink at greed or somebody's. right or or my own you know. >> or blood lust. >> or blood lust or whatever it is and we. can wink at all these things but like. all those things keep me out of like I I. deserve I deserve hell for all those. things. >> right no I get it. >> is but for the grace of God period and. we talk about the things that God saved. us from that we don't like and the. malleability like why aren't you dealing. with that why am I not deal like I don't.

And I'm not. And I'm thankful I'm not. But it's so how do you So how do you. walk into it? >> What do you say? You don't say anything. first. You listen, man. >> But and you earn the right to be heard. You earn the right to be heard. You you. you sew seeds, dude. And you listen. And. the way you sew seeds is you. nonjudgmentally. listen and you invite forward. Who are you, man? Because that doesn't. define you. and and you and you become a.

a safe place and a trustworthy place, not with an agenda so you can eventually. pull this judo move to show them how. they're wrong because this is not your. job, right? It's God's job to to move. someone's heart. It's God's job. Like. when Jesus ate with sinners, what did he. do? Do you think he sat around and got. because he just sat around and he ate. with the tax collectors and the. drunkards and the prostitutes? Did he. sit there and the conversation was him. going around the room telling them where. they were wrong and he was right?

Like, no, that would be a very short. hang, right? That's not a good party. >> Yeah. >> But no, it's cuz they liked him. >> Yeah. >> And why did they like him? Cuz he. probably listened really well and he. probably sat with him and he earned the. right to be heard. And as a prof, that. is a a a. wonderful. philosophy of ministry as you step into. places like this with the broken and the. bruised and the the the the bruised. reads and the smoldering wicks as.

scripture says and and you listen and. you and you and. and hopefully they come out of the. shadows and begin to talk about the. struggle and you and you honor it and. you love them and you let you know you. let the Lord steer it like if I I would. be doing a disservice. What do you say? Like I don't know. It depends how who. I'm talking to and whatever. But I know. what I I know what I wouldn't say and I. know what I wouldn't do and I wouldn't. lead off with a with a a moral lecture. on what because they they know they've.

contended with those arguments. They. could probably shape those arguments. better than I ever could because they've. dealt with them far longer and in far. more personal ways. So yeah, I love them. well. and and then uh you know I think. again. what does it mean to to to do the work. of God in places like that it's the same. thing in anywhere else bunch of years. ago someone asked me this question I was. working with a doing some chapency work. with the soccer team and he was joking.

me about what is it like to do the. Lord's work and I kind of like I thought. it was a kind of a weird question and I. thought to myself for a minute I was. like you know what man. I'm not doing the Lord's work. The Lord. is doing the Lord's work. My job as a as. a as a priest, as a pastor, as a. Christian, as a man, is to is to. cultivate a heart that knows what it. means to listen to the Holy Spirit and. to see where the Holy Spirit is moving.

and just agree with it. And just agree with it, right? How do we. learn that? How do we cultivate that? We. learn it through reading the word. We. learn it through prayer. We learn it. through worship. We learn it through. doing these conversations. We learn it. through our relationships with other men. or women in our marriages. But we tune our hearts as the as the. hymn says, we Lord, tune my heart to. your grace so I know I can see it when. you're doing it. And I can just agree. with it. And and the doors you open.

cannot be shut. The doors you closed. can't be open. Just help me not beat my. head against those doors that won't. open. And and when I'm dealing with a human. heart, it's the same question. How do I. what what doors are you opening there? And how do I talk to them in a way that. they need to hear this? Not the way that. I can be right. >> Yeah. People have an overwhelming need. to be right or desire to be right. >> I do. It's hard, man. >> I don't. But I I. >> No, I know you do.

>> I look at you with with pity and. concern. Yeah. You imagine you need to. be right. Need to prove your point. Um, well, that was a beautiful uh. description of how to actually love. somebody rather than I mean because I. know where you're coming from, which is. you want to see people genuinely. liberated and not led into their. destruction. by any any of these things, you know, and uh but you're we're all fighting.

against our desire to be right. Really, is what it comes down to. >> Oh, >> yeah. >> That's Yeah, 100%. Can can I say one. thing though that I can't can't resist. Um so Jesus there's this moment where he. says you know woe to anyone who leads. the the the children astray. >> And you do feel like when you're looking. at people who are beset by any of these. agonies. with comp I mean if you're you know. you look at them with compassion.

but then you think like someone lied to. them and got them here in the first. place and I feel less compassion for. that person. I'm just going to say that. >> there's a lot of voices, man, and I. would there's a lot of people that will. vehemently disagree with me, and that's. okay. But, uh, I would just say that as people. ask those questions about their own life. and they're going through, like you, you. can easily find someone to affirm the.

path that you're going down to. >> Oh, yeah. >> Right. I mean, there's so many different. flavors and denominations and. expressions of that. Like, you want. someone to prop up your lifestyle and. give you theological and biblical. justification. Like, you don't have to. scratch scratch very deep to find. someone to do that. But that's why I think it's so important. that that we that's why I'm, like I. said, I'm a Bible nerd and I think it's. so important that that that it's it's. scripture alone, man. We have to we have.

to go, you know, we have to go to. scripture and test it everything against. measure everything against what we're. hearing in the world. What you're. hearing from me, what you hear from, you. know, the church and leaderships like. I'm not I'm not scripture, right? I'm. not like what's right, what's wrong, who. gets to answer that question? Who gets. gets to be the one to answer that. question? Do I get to answer that. question? No. Does God gets to answer. that question? Okay. So that's we can. all agree most people will stack hands. God's the one that gets to answer that. question. Okay. How does God answer that.

question? Does he answer it through me? He answers it through his word, right? He answers it through that. That's is. how God has taken a knee and he has it. written this redemptive historical. sort of incredibly rich dynamic gift to. us that's called the Bible. And if if we are people that want to. understand what it means to to ask these. questions to move in these directions. and to do it with any any truth and.

integrity. we have to measure what we're hearing. against this you know it's you know be. transformed by the renewing of your mind. through the scriptures it says in Romans. and so we can test and God's good and. perfect will test it is this God. speaking to me or is this some you know. new fang angled cultural moment that's. just trying to like you know v for air. dominance right now or whatever you know. you know what I'm saying yeah so.

addiction. has been a feature of well it's. described in the Bible so it's you know. it's been around since people have been. around I think but it does seem like a. bigger factor in the lives of Americans. than 40 years ago I mean I know that it. is because there just a lot more ways to. get addicted and there's less cultural. resistance to addiction than there's. ever been. And so like entire. generations are getting destroyed by it. >> There's more things to or more obvious. things to be addicted to that aren't. just substances.

>> Exactly. >> Yeah. >> So how big a presence is addiction in. your experience of counseling? I mean it's it's just part of it you. know and uh it's a you know doing what I. do obviously you encounter you know when. people come into my office and they. knock on my door very rarely it is like. hey I have a question why in the book of. numbers did so and so you know why did. Moses hold up a golden you know serpent. or whatever it's rarely questions like.

that it's more like are you psyched what. it is though yeah actually that's a lot. easier right it's a lot easier here cuz. uh but it's people are coming in with. it, you know, they can't keep their. cheese on their cracker, man. And. they're saying, "Hey, I'm addicted to. this or my marriage is coming apart.". And um so addiction is it's a it's a you. know, again, you've got substance abuse, you got alcoholics, you've got people. that, you know, opioids now, which is. insane. You've got these things, you.

know, the the list is endless. Gambling, pornography, gambling, pornography, gambling is huge. That is God that. scares me because of just the online. stuff. >> Do you see that? >> Uh I don't I have seen it. It's not. something that I have faced but I know a. lot about it. I know a lot of people. that have gone that journey and that is. one of the most nefarious and hard to. beat addictions is gambling. And uh but. all that to say uh but to those that.

that contend with addiction, you know, the one thing that I can say and I can. say this unequivocally is there is so. much hope for people. It's not a path. that you ever want to walk down, but my. my favorite people that I deal with are. my friends in AA or my friends in uh you. know that are in NA or that have gone. through recovery that have had you know. all their self-righteous pretenses. stripped down that have been brought.

down to the studs who have you know. blown up their lives so they don't have. anything to they don't know anything to. prove and they've been on this. redemptive jney And I always talk these. people. I say, "Would you please come. and join my church? Would you please. come and be a part?" I'm like, "We need. this." Like, the church needs to be a. hospital, not a showcase. >> I've never been to a church as Christian. as some AE meetings I've been to. >> I I agree with you. And it's, you know, church needs to be a place where we can. get blood on the walls. And you know. what I mean by that? Where we can we can. tell the truth. You know, church is not.

designed to be an AA meeting. And AA. meetings are not designed to be church, but there are aspects of it where. >> the humility and the honesty, >> the humility, the honesty to where. people can come in and walk through the. doors of a church and say, "This has. this is populated by people that I that. I could sit in a room full of men or a. room full of women, a room full of. couples, and I could have a a human yard. sale of what I've done and who I've been. in my life, and I would be met with love. and grace and people looking at me and.

saying, "I want to hear more of that.". That when I show you the most wretched. parts of me, it doesn't push you away, but it draws you closer because you're. able to look me in the eye and say, "Yeah, I get it, man. Me, too.". >> Yeah. >> You know, and that's that is, you know, that's it. Because what that does, it. does a lot of you know our biggest most. you know with addiction especially. and you know be it pornography, gambling, alcohol, whatever it is, you.

know, sweets, whatever you're addicted. to, >> it's I don't think it's fair to put. sweet. >> It might be a little that might be a. little too much, but it's it is a it is. it breeds so much shame. >> Yeah, I know, >> right? It breeds so much shame. And. that's what sin does. It breeds shame. You read the story in the garden when. Adam eats of the tree of the knowledge. of good and evil. He runs. What's the. first thing Adam does is he runs and he. hides in the bushes. >> Yes. >> He hides. And then God comes and and he.

asks a question. He says, "Adam, where. are you? What do you what do you why are. you hiding?" Little pro tip. Anytime God. asks a question in scripture, he already. knows the answer. He does. But what he. needed Adam to see is he need Adam to. see the answer. And Adam comes out and. he says what? He says to him, he says, "Why were you hiding?" And all right, Adam's in the garden. There's one rule. in the garden. Don't eat of this tree of. the knowledge of good and evil. And. Adam's broken that rule. Sin enters and. he hides. And when God asks him, "Why. are you hiding?" The logical answer is, "I just broke the one rule." That's not.

what he says, though. He says, "I was. naked and I was ashamed.". And to paraphrase that, he he was. saying, "I wasn't hiding because I have. done something wrong. I'm hiding because. I am something wrong. >> Yeah. >> And I could not bear for you to see me. And if you saw me, you would reject me. and I would be alone. And that is the. most foundational cry of the human. heart, which it was the cry of Jesus on. the cross when he became sin. When he.

truly became like us and he absorbed the. sin of humanity and he quotes the Psalms. and he says, "My God, my God, the cry of. dereliction, why have you forsaken me?". He could have said anything in that. moment, but it was this cry of our. deepest longing. don't leave me like. this this shameful thing that I am. So, going back to the AA the biggest poison. that leads to addiction and it's this. this this shame engine that that drives. us and I don't want to feel it so I. drink and I feel more shame and I so I. drink more and it just becomes this.

cycle. But when you get into these rooms. and you're able to have like I just said. like you have a yard sale and you be. able to say this is what I am. I'm. Billy. I'm an alcoholic or I'm Tucker. and I'm a this or I'm whatever it is. And you can lay that out in front of a. group of people and they sit there and. they don't run away and they don't give. you the rejection that you think that. you deserve that pushed Adam into the. bushes. It does it it just sweeps the. knee of your shame and all of a sudden. the thing that that Satan meant for. evil, God means for good. And it the the.

place of your greatest destruction, your. greatest fears, your greatest self-. sabotage becomes the place where life. grows. Like, tell me there's not a. living God. Tell me there's not a God. that that is that is using uh the tools. of the enemy against him, right? That. makes us more than conquerors, right? That's beautiful. And so, do I encounter addiction? Yeah. And when. I find guys that have been through. recovery, I love them.

>> Me, too. I feel I want more of them. >> I feel exactly the same way. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I I couldn't agree more. >> So, you made um I think the most of. profound thing you said was the core. human fear is don't leave us alone. >> And that the first thing that God saw. that was wrong with creation was Adam's. solitude. It's not good for man to be. alone. It does feel like people are more alone.

No, >> we're isolated, especially as men. Why. as men? Because we. are scared to be found out. You know, men, we live in the same way. You know that that that description I. just said of Adam, he's like, you know, there's something that's that's, you. know, I'm not something right. It said. Adam on this course that I have to.

become. It's it's on me. I've got to. become this ruthless quest for. validation. And that's the sort of. spiritual genetic heritage that we've. all received. I think it's all men. We. were born with this idea of that this I. I I'm incomplete and I' and it's on me. to to uh be be enough. And I'm terrified as a that you know I. one is but you know as a man I've spent.

much of my life too much of my early. life terrified that people would see. that I don't have it all together. like. we we all like have two things in. common. One, none of us have it all. together. And the second is we we all. want everyone around us to think we do. >> Of course. >> Right. And the idea and the fear of that. is if I let you see that the same fear. that Adam had that you would you would. see something that you found undesirable.

and you would abandon me and I would be. left alone. So as men we have become so. artfully. skilled at working side by side and you. doing acts of you know. uh you know working side by side and you. know playing golf together and doing all. these things but just know nothing about. each other's lives. I think that's. right. But if I could just be the. liberal for a moment and blame society. also, I think the structures have.

completely changed in the world around. us. And I think it is more and more. difficult for men to find the chance to. be with other men. >> Yeah. >> Just men. I mean, that is to Well, by. the way, it's measurable. And. >> well, it's an it's an ancient problem. I. think one of the great unspoken miracles. in scripture is that Jesus as a man in. his mid30s had 12 best friends. Right? Like how many men in their 30s like the. last most men I spent a lot of time.

ministering with men. I love it. It's. one of my favorite things is that one of. the one of the last times that men. remember having real relationships was. back in college. I know the last time. and then they step into the workforce. They get they get married which is. wonderful. They have children which is. wonderful. but they lose sight of the importance of. male relationship. They lose sight of uh. they lose sight of the value of why you. need men around you. And this is.

something that I mean Jesus. demonstrabably demonstrated that in his. 12 discip with his 12 disciples that was. uh you know he illustrated a lot of. things with that but on a most basic. level it was just hey we need that. You. read Mark chapter 2, what is the story. where Jesus is in Capernaum and he's. there and he's teaching in the house and. it's packed and there's people like. hanging in the windows and no one can. get in or out and there these there's a. man who's been paralyzed and they can't. they want Jesus to heal him and they. can't get to him. So his his friends,

his four friends or however many friends. it was, they pick up the mat and they. they grab the corners of the mat and. they carry their friend and they go to. the roof of where Jesus is is teaching. in this house and they begin digging and. they tear the roof off. You can imagine. Jesus just feeling the chunks coming. down and he's like, "What's going on?". And they're like, "Our friend is hurt. My friend needs you." And they lower. this man down. If I were to go down the street, how.

many men do you think, and I pulled. randomly, how many men do you think. would have matt carriers? I do. I do, too. Thank you for being one of those matt. carriers. Yeah. Well, we saw this coming. 40 years ago. You saw it coming. No, I. just knew that men in there, cuz I saw. it among men I knew and respected and. loved, they would get, you know, to. middle age and then old age and they had. no real male friends. And so we decided.

the five of us in college, we just not. we're not not going to let that happen. And we set up a pretty complex structure. to maintain that friendship. Um. and we did. We sure did. And uh for you. know 40 over 40 years now. And uh so. that really one of them profound things. in my life. But I just know I really. feel like I'm one of very few 57year-old. men I know who has like four best. friends for real though not.

kind of academically my best friends but. like people I see regularly who are the. godfathers of my children who we you. know travel somewhere in the world every. single year who I talk to all the time. who I've relied on consistently for 40. years for advice or if I needed it money. or whatever I need. And I will say, not. to brag, but it's not bragging. It's. just the nature of it. Of those four. men, five men, all five are still. happily married. >> That's true. >> All five have children who respect them. All five are just basically happy.

>> Yeah. >> And I think it's the in part the results. of those friendships. >> Oh, that's been one of the the single. most profound gifts of my life. You've. been one of the most profound gifts of. my life. partly. You know what's funny about that group. of our group of five guys is you. couldn't find five more different. people. >> Yeah. >> Right. And the the beauty of it was the. commitment and the the covenant where we.

pushed in. Exactly. We were 20 years. old. We didn't know what we were saying. >> And we pushed in and we said, "All. right, we we will not break this this. this covenant, this vow with one another. >> until we die.". >> Until we die. And no, we have not and we. will not. But the thing about it is you. think about all the seasons of life. where we've been through or all the. incarnations of birth and births and. deaths and you know all the transitions. and you know all the tears that have.

been cried and all those things that you. know we've won and we've lost and uh. then and the how the world has tried to. conspire to pull our relationships apart. just by proximity. But we've really held. to that. And for me, I know personally I. just say knowing in those dark places. that I could always just reach out. No. Yeah. And just knowing that you're there. and knowing that the other guys are. there. is it's been such a gospel expression.

The number of time I talked about. earlier, you remember we were saying. about how, you know, Jesus comes, he. saves us from our sins. He saves us. from, you know, breaks the back of sin. and death. But, you know, foundation, he's saving me from myself. And the. reason, one of the reasons I I love our. friendship is the number of times you. guys have stepped in and kind of saved. me from my my own decisions. >> Been there, >> right? You know, just being able to. speak like, hey, I wouldn't do that. Or, you know, just loving each other through. hard times. And I mean, you know, losing.

I remember my dad died. I I will never. forget it. It was last January. And. walking into that church was packed and. turning around and seeing you guys all. sitting on the row. It just just. shattered my heart, man. In a be the. most beautiful way. It was a huge gift. to me, man. It used to be. >> Yeah. No, it's been absolutely. incredible. Yep. I could go on. I could write a book. about it and never will. Never talked. about in public before, but the only. reason I'm saying that is not to brag,

but just to say because it's not. anything, you know, I've just been the. beneficiary of it. But I think it's. worth saying it out loud. that like in some sense it's it's. different obviously totally different. from marriage, but it it's the same in. the sense that it's the product of a. covenant of a promise. >> Yeah. >> To other people that you're just going. to abide by. And like when you have like. a six-month-old. >> Mhm. And your buddies are like, you. know, this year we're meeting in.

Barbados or wherever we're meeting, Hartford, Connecticut. >> And your wife is like, what? >> Yeah. >> You know, come on now. You've got three. kids and I'm breastfeeding. >> It cost you something to be there. >> big time. >> Yeah. >> And you you say. >> cost them something for a lot. And I. think. >> they they've paid up many times. >> All five of them support it cuz they see. its fruits. But but to say to your wife, I'm I'm sorry. This is a commitment that. I made. And she's like, and you never. want to make your wife mad, especially. when she just bore your child and and.

you do it and like that. So it does take. some sacrifice, not small sacrifice. >> No, tremendous. And it's so essential, but the the dividends are are so. exponentially more. I mean going back to. we're saying like the importance of male. relationship in that is the problem is. you know in the same way we talked about. pornography or addiction one of the. things is is it pushes you in isolation. like isolation is a bad thing. >> Yes. >> And for us as men as masculine beings.

you you lose perspective on your own. masculinity and your own sense of self. and your own role as a husband and your. own role as a father. And it's essential. that you have good, healthy. men that can serve as mirrors and. reflect and just kind of play catch with. you a little bit on these ideas. And. it's or or you you get in your own. oneman echo chamber and you start. feeling crazy. Then you start feeling. the shame. I'm not doing this right or I. don't know. And then you start living. out a caricature of what you think you.

should be versus what you kind of really. are. And the next thing you know, you. want to talk about like how do marriage. problems start? like men, you know, there's a great spot, a great place. And. for I think having those healthy. relationships for men, certainly for me, has done a tremendous amount in helping. me have a healthy marriage because it's. helped me regulate my sense of self and. like and also just like my sense of my. vain sense of self. >> I got famous in my 20s. I didn't expect.

to be famous. I got famous. It's been. >> I would not have handled that well in my. 20s. Oh, I don't think I I don't think I. did. But if it hadn't been for you guys, I think I would have been totally off. the deep end. Completely off the deep. end. And um. >> and our wives. >> for sure. >> We marry good women. >> Yeah, for sure. But you know, I know a. lot of married men who. >> your buddies are a little different from. your wife because your wife is. thankfully. >> No, I think it's harder for your wife to. be like, "Oh, stop it." But you go see.

your buddies and you're like, I'm host a. cable television show. They're like. cable. They don't care at all. This is. true. It's so good. >> So important. It's so important. >> No. And I think what I, you know, I. think this this was kind of baked into. the cake with us cuz I mean, we met when. we were 17 or whatever, right? And we. met, you know, we were very unimpressive. at that time. Not that we're very. impressive now, >> but true. But what happens is it's is. that and I think one of the values of.

this friendship and I think it's values. of any male if I could just elevate this. one aspect of it. >> is that we love each other and we. respect each other but we're not overly. impressed with each other. >> right. >> like this might be hard for people to. understand but like when we get together. we will rag on we will bust each other's. chops in a way that only people that. have that kind of relationship can do it. yeah you you we you know lovingly. humiliate one another and. >> continuously. >> continuously yes and so but I think.

there's there's a huge value to that and. and so for male relationship we're what. I'm talking about I'm not it doesn't. have to be some giant therapy session it. just has to be men that see you that are. that have the ability and willingness to. speak that truth into you and say you. know no dude you're not all that or dude. about 10 years ago I was you know I. decid one of my children's like you you. got to get off nicotine and I was like I. knew that was it was obviously it's. wrong to get off nicotine. >> when you nicotine. >> So I get bullied by this.

>> You love nicotine more than. >> I I really do. Always have. But anyway, this one child's like, "Yeah, it's bad. for you." Okay. Which it's not. But. anyway, I get off nicotine and. immediately go crazy and get fat. And I. kind of knew that I was crazy, but I. didn't quite realize how fat I was. because no one in my world said one word. to me about it. And I was like, "Man, I. think my pan shrunk." Whatever. We go. skiing and I'll never forget it. We're. on the we get off the tram in Jackson, Wyoming. And you know, the five of us, whatever, we're skiing. One of us lives.

out there. And so anyway, I get off and. I'm with one of them turns to me, goes, "Dude, you're fat." And I was like, "I. don't think I'm fat. What?" He goes, "Look at you. You're fat. It's. disgusting." And I was like, "I'm not. fat." He goes, "You got your own weather. system, man.". Like, I'm on TV every day. I don't think. someone would tell me if I was fat. He. goes, "Dude, you're fat. >> Someone is telling you.". >> And I remember this. >> I I went and bought a tin of Copenhagen.

that night and immediately, you know, lost some of the weight. But the point. is, I was the only person who would tell. me that. >> and so so gently, too. >> I think everybody else noticed. I mean, obviously, everyone else noticed, but. not one person said one word. >> Isn't that interesting? >> But you know, uh do you know why he did. that? I'm going back to use that phrase. He had earned the right. >> Yes. He was say because you knew he knew. he loves you, >> right? And he knew you knew he cared and. you godfather to my son. Yes. No, I.

know. >> No, >> I know you're talking about. >> Yeah, you kind of fat too. >> I agree. Um anyway, yeah, what an. incredible blessing. And I hope it just. this conversation doesn't make other. people feel. Well, I don't know. It's just true. And. so I'm glad we. >> It is true. I say that I think I hope. other people hear it. They hear this as. an invitation, >> right? >> They that whether you're young or. especially young people like lock in, man. Find your find your find your you.

know your your mat carriers. >> Yes. >> Find your mat carriers, man. And uh cuz. you're going to need them cuz you're. going to cuz one day you're going to be. carrying that the mat for that guy. But. I promise you, your day is coming where. you're going to be on the mat and you're. not going to be able to get up and. they're going to need to carry you to. where you need to be. Boy, that is real. >> And it is true. It is true. It is true. As sure as I'm sitting here. And for. people that are older, I don't care how. old, there are men that are and if you. don't go to a church or you don't have a. place where people can can do that, that. then you don't have a community, then.

either look deeper in your church or. find another one because it is so. essential and it's so available. >> Yes. >> And it just is. And it just it it just. takes the risk of of. being able to step in and a willingness. to just tell the truth. And also to be a. willingness to be the kind of person. that can step in and hear someone else's. as they tell you the truth about their. life and you love them anyway, whether. it's said graciously or they, you know,

are telling you you're fat in a very. unceremonious way. But it's done with. love. And I I just think it's it's I I. see I hear it. I just I I I I say that. as an invitation, man. I think it's. good. Well, I I hope it is cuz it's one. of the most important things I've ever. done after my marriage. The most. important thing. So, um last question. and I I think it's something I think. about a lot, but your answer when I. asked you what would you say to someone. to anyone who was thinking, well, maybe. I'm trans, I thought your answer was was.

wonderful because you approached the. person with love. So I want to ask a. related question about something that's. a kind of trend now among people who are. really hurting some of whom I I think. are wonderful people veterans. >> and it's the use of like very very heavy. duty hallucinogens. >> famously IA but there are a bunch of IBA. there are a bunch of them. >> to heal them and and the reason that. I've never really talked about it is cuz. I want to approach it with that same.

spirit cuz these are like some of the. best people I know and also some of the. most hurting people and they've done. what they were asked to do. In some. cases, it meant killing other people and. they've been deeply damaged by it. That's my read. >> We spend a lot of time talking about how. bad it is to be killed. I think we spend. almost no time talking about how bad it. is for someone to kill. >> But it is bad. And I know a lot of. people who've done it and has hurt every. one of them. So in that pain or out of. that pain many of them go to.

hallucinogens very heavy duty. hallucinogens. and I should just be totally honest I've. used hall solution as a child and I was. totally convinced like that's not for me. that's bad I was afraid of it um I did. it a lot and I was really afraid of it. and I'm very opposed to it but I want to. be open-minded and loving because I know. that they are suffering so much. >> so that's the preamble of My question is. what what's your view of that? Um, taking that in pieces, I would say.

first of all, you know, medically. speaking, like I, you know, I don't know. like the right. >> I know I've got people that I know that. had uh medication resistant depression. that had done experimental but medically. directed use of certain things that. really helped them and with their. depressions and things like that. But I. don't know enough to speak about that. Um, I would say to someone who's. suffering from a PTSD to that level of.

what you're talking about, first of all, in the same way, uh, uh, what would I. say? I I wouldn't say much in the. beginning because I think there's just. so the the trauma of that is something. they never asked for. >> And if I could distill it down, you. know, the here's the great tragedy of it. is I would say. is it's not your fault. like it's not. your fault in the sense that you know. you may have done things but to have. those experiences and you be thrust into.

a context where it's unwinable where. you're being you know you're in war or. whatever the context may be and I know. they're nuanced and varied but like it's. not your fault that you have you bear. the the sort of intellectual or or not. the the psychiatric wounds and those are. real like those are neuropathways that. are like legitimately carved right so I. don't wink at that like it's a thing. PTSD is a real medical reality. Um,

it's not your fault, comma. But sadly, and this is the tearing of it, it's now. your responsibility. So now, what are. you going to do? How do you choose to. step in these directions? And in so far. as you range of treatments, I'm not an. expert on that, so I'm not going to. speak to that. But as far as like. hallucinogens and you say hi or DMT or. >> where all of a sudden you are meeting. figures in the spiritual realm, >> this is this is where I this is where I. have. >> but that's what I'm specifically talking. about. >> Okay. This is where I have strong. opinions and my strong opinion is that. much like I talked about earlier, you.

know, we we live on on you know we live. on a side of a curtain. There's a there. there's a and there are thin places as. you know like we talk about when I. minister to someone by their bedside is. that it's a thin place. You can almost. feel the the they're crossing over and. it's what the Celtics would call a thin. place. It's like the heaven and earth or. the divine or the supernatural the. unseen realm and the seen realm are are. beginning to touch. Right. >> And that's real.

>> Yeah. And what Jesus says in John 10, he. says that, you know, there there is that. inside and and there is that, but I'm. the gate. And if you want to go into. this that you want to go through the. unseen realm where it produces this life. and God, it's there's a way to do this. And it's through me. I'm the gate. And. if you try to climb over the walls and. you try to get in in any other way, you're doing that, guess what? You're a. robber and you're a thief and you're. trying to gain the things of God without. God. and you're trying to gain access to.

the divine and the unseen and all the. all you want the cookies in the cookie. jar, but you don't but you're not going. through the gate. And uh what I would say is you read. stories about DMT and you read people. and I you know I've never done it. I I. uh but I know people that have dabbled. in that quite a bit and I know that when. you hear encounters that I've I've. crossed over and I've had this this. encounter with all these beings and. there was this a purple woman that I.

talked to and I developed this. relationship like I was there for years. but I was almost there for 10 minutes. and then somebody else goes and has the. same trip and goes in and he comes back. and says hey I met a purple woman who. knew your name and was asking about you. which that that's document reality. >> I know people that many people have that. experience. >> So what I'm telling you is there this. isn't just some psychiatric mindbending. exercise. You're actually crossing you. you're craw claw you're not going. through the gate. are craw crawling over. the fence.

>> but into a real pattern. >> into a real into a real place. >> that is demonic and those are you are. you are encountering uh I think it's a. demonic experience and I think it's a. dangerous one because what's so. dangerous about it and this is true. >> it's not your imagination is what you're. saying. >> it's not your imagination so when Jesus. or you read in you know the book of dut. deuteronomy and other places where he. says you don't practice necromancy don't. do magic don't get in involved in you. know tarot cards or all that kind of. stuff what he's not saying is there's no. power there. What he's saying is.

actually the reason it's a warning is. there's a lot of there's a lot going on. over there and it's but it's really. dangerous and it's not of God. It's not. of Jesus and it's dangerous and it will. and the what's so dangerous about it is. that it the people that encounter this. generally speaking and people listen. this is you know for as many people. there are different experiences but when. people step into those places and they. have these encounters. they have these this profound sense of. enlightenment they feel special they.

feel seen they feel good they feel oh. and it's just like it's like a taste. they get it's like the crack dealer. giving the taste on the playground and. then the kid just gets deeper and deeper. and they what they think is giving them. life is really hollowing them out from. the inside. And I think what's happening. in those experiences is the deeper you. go. and you you will one day wake up and. discover that you have been dabbling in. and in in a demonic realm that that.

promised you life but is act and insight. and progression and enlightenment but it. has really been hollowing you out from. the inside. taking you away from the. source of light, taking you away from. the source of forgiveness of redemption. that is only in Jesus and uh you know. distorting the image in which you were. created and I think it's a dangerous. place and I would I that scares me for. people that do that now where people.

especially those like I have a lot of. compassion for people like I gain or. people that are in PTSD and again if. there's a medical shallow end of that. pool that has some that's not you. running through the, you know, the unseen realm. And so, I mean, I, you. know, I don't know. But if there's, but. people that do that recreation, they go, they're on the some spiritual safari to. go into that place. I'm like, man, I. just, I would, I would caution you. against that. There, that's one place. you don't need to go to know you don't.

want to be there. Amen. The Reverend. Billy Cerviny. A phrase I never get. tired of using. It's one that still. feels ironic to me. God bless you. God. bless you, man. I love you. Good to see. you.