Political Assassinations, the Unexpected Player in the Iran War and Israel's Latest Bombing Campaign

Colonel Wilkerson, thank you so much for. doing this. I think most Americans understand this. as a war between the United States in. partnership with Israel against Iran, but there are of course a lot of other. players acting on this drama, maybe in. ways that we don't perceive. China would. be. the biggest and potentially most. threatening to our interests. What is. China's role in this conflict? >> It's a role, I think, forced upon them. at the moment. Um.

not that they can't handle it. They seem. to be quite adaptable with regard to. this very frenetic and indeterminate. presidency and empire. Um but it's forced on them because they. didn't think that this was going to. happen in the way that it's happened, I. think. Uh that is say this being the war. of choice with Iran. And some things are happening in the war. that are probably disturbing to them. For example, the latest completed. railroad and their five base road.

initiative railroads. was the probably the most strategic one. in many ways. It brings China's Pacific. ports. all the way around on land. And then intended was up the Persian. Gulf along the old route that we used to. resupply the Soviet Union during World. War II. And eventually into the Caucasus. and beyond Caucasus and beyond. And now. we're bombing it. Uh Israel and we are bombing that.

railroad. Now, of course, railroads. don't get bombed very well. You could. drop all the ordnance in the world on. them and they'll get a bunch of people. out there and repair them pretty. quickly. But nonetheless, it shows that. there's something more to this war of. choice than perhaps even Trump knows. about. Uh I'm sure there people in the. Pentagon who know about it. Um that uh. are happening and the world is uh. basically ignorant of it. >> What Can Can you expand on that? There. are things happening that the president.

doesn't know about, but that some. planners at the Pentagon doubtless do. What would those things be? >> Well, one of them is bombing that. railroad. It just started recently with. both Israel and the United States making. it a principal target. And one of the. things they're trying to do, of course, and this is a hugely geostrategic issue. that most people don't Uh. I'm not even sure I understand it. completely, but if you go back in time. to earlier empires when the real power,

cultural, technological, economic, military, and otherwise was in the East. you see one of the ways that those. empires roughly defeated other empires. by shifting maritime commerce to the. land. Because maritime commerce was simply. becoming too expensive for them. They. put the Portuguese empire out of. business, for example. And what they did was they shifted along. one of their routes, primary routes was. this route China's now using to.

eventually go up the Persian Gulf and. into Azerbaijan, Armenia, and Georgia, the Caucasus and on northward. Um. marrying up with the other three Belt. Road Initiative railroads, which. incidentally have been underrate. seriously by the war in Ukraine. Does. that ring a bell with anybody. geostrategically? They're not emptying into Europe as they. were intended to do. They've stopped. pretty much. And what does that do? Well, basically those railroads mean. that instead of two and a half to three. days and very expensive maritime.

shipping for China's Pacific port. produce, it's 16 hours into the heart of. Europe. That's a huge change, one that will. drive a lot of commerce off the seas and. will to a certain extent negate the Bab. el Mandeb, the Strait of Hormuz, the. Suez Canal, maybe even the Panama Canal. Uh although China's built that very, very luxurious, state-of-the-art port on. the uh west coast of Peru, but that's. looking toward the Pacific and looking.

toward uh that aspect of commerce. So, don't expect a lot of that to be going. through the canal even. These railroads. are a game-changer in terms of commerce. And think about this for a moment, in. terms of one of the United States'. supposedly great strengths, its maritime. power. Because we won't need to police. the seas anymore. It'll all be going over land. >> I I think a lot of Americans are at a. great disadvantage understanding this. because they lack.

a sense of the mechanics of commerce. Products just appear. It's not clear. how. And they lack a sense of geography. The. idea that, you know, Iran you could. reach China from Iran overland. I people. I think lack the perspective of how. exactly that would happen. Um but clearly the Pentagon understands. these questions, right? So, they're. bombing that railroad for a reason, which would be what, do you think? >> Well, to set it back and to tell China.

we know what they're doing and we don't. like it. Um that route is such a serious. threat in in and of itself. um because of what you you look at in. terms of commerce during the period. immediately prior to World War II when. Brit- Britain and the United States. sneaked into Iran, and I mean that, we. sneaked in there. They were Nazi. sympathizers at the time. And we built a. road and we flanked it with security and.

at that time the Iranians couldn't. challenge it very much. And we shipped. all manner of goods up that road into. the belly of the Soviet Union. Stalingrad would have never held out. without that supply route. Hundreds of thousands of trucks and. wheeled vehicles and other implements of. war went up that route. It was second. only to Murmansk and in terms of. strategic effect, it was more important. than Murmansk. How many Americans even. know that? How many Americans even knew. that at the time?

So it's it's a real game-changer in. terms of the United States if it has to. do anything about China disastrously, if. it has to go to war with China, if it. has to fight them, it's essential that. we control these lines of communication. and we're not. >> So what's the Chinese perspective on. this? >> As it has been ever since Deng Xiaoping. started capitalism with Chinese. characteristics. We do not want a war. We will beat you.

without a war. We are going to beat you. technologically. We're going to beat you. culturally. We're going to beat you. militarily. We're going to beat you. every dimension of power that you can. imagine and this latest edict by Xi. Jinping, which the American press has. completely missed as far as I can tell, um he put out the latest. in a series of edicts that have come. from Chinese premiers from Deng Xiaoping. on. Hu Jintao was a little bit of an. aberration, but that's one reason they.

got rid of him, but Xi Jinping has been. right in there and this latest one says, we are essentially triumphant in every. element of global power but one. Now we're going to take on that one and. that one is financial control. And that means the renminbi being. substituted for the dollar in everything. from oil sales to you name it. It will. become the transactional and reserve. currency. Already is to a many to a. great extent for about 40% of the world.

They're going to shoot for 60 to 70% of. the world. They're going to drive the. Bretton Woods system back where it came. from. They're going to eliminate Swift. They're going to eliminate our ability. to sanction countries. That's one of. their major purposes and. that's an altruistic purpose for them. They think eliminating our ability to. put sanctions on other countries in the. world through which since the turn of. this century we have killed 38 million. people. Mostly men, women and children. 38.

million people that rivals Stalin's. purges, Mao Zedong's cultural. revolution. It almost rivals Hitler with in terms of. the people that he killed directly in. World War II. Not the whole war with 100. million casualties, but certainly he the. people he killed directly. So we're. looking at the United States and China. looks at us this way. As having done that damage in the world. with our financial system which allowed. us to put primary and secondary.

sanctions on 30% of the world. Go to. OFAC and see how many countries we have. under sanction. It's incredible. And these sanctions kill men, women and. children over time. We killed 500,000 in. Saddam Hussein's. Iraq when we had the sanctions on him. Madeline Albright said when she was. confronted with that statistic, so what, it was worth it. Ah, Madeline want to join Hillary in the. world of cretins? She did. This is a this is a serious issue for.

China and they want to stop it. >> Well, here's something that thieves. count on. Security cameras usually stop. where Wi-Fi stops, right? Makes sense. So if you've got a barn, a job site, equipment parked outside, long driveway, criminals know there's a good chance. that nobody is watching this cuz there's. no Wi-Fi. And that's why we like defend by. Tacticam. It's a new sponsor of this. show. Defense cameras don't run on. Wi-Fi. They run on cellular, just like. your phone, so they work everywhere. If.

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citizens for disobedience with. programmable digital currency, and will. do something very similar to us. >> Bingo. >> Yeah, I mean, that that does seem like, you know, >> a natural follow-on. >> Well, it does seem like it does seem. like the things you do to your opponents. abroad will be done to your own citizens. by the same government. Yeah, I mean, that seems like a pretty consistent. lesson of history. So, um that's why. empires are bad, cuz they're bad for. your own population. But I I wonder like. China we see our competition with China.

in primarily military terms, I think. That's what we talk about in public. No. one ever talks about the relative size. of the economies. It's like, how many. aircraft carriers do they have? >> But that's new. That's new. In my. administration, my administration, in. George W. Bush's administration, Colin. Powell was given his head on only one. major international issue, and that was. China. And George I was there when George W. Bush said, "Its importance to Walmart. meant Dick needed to stay away from it.".

And that he meant that. He meant that we. were in strategic economic competition. with China. And he didn't mind that. because he thought we were better than. they were at capitalism. And we should. certainly hold our head up in the world. in that regard. So he gave Colin Powell. his head and Powell was constantly. constantly thwarting the vice president. in those terms because Donald Rumsfeld. and and Dick Cheney wanted a hot war or.

a cold war, they preferred the latter, with China. And Bush didn't want it. So. he turned Colin loose on Taiwan in. particular and wound up at the end of. his first term having to repudiate Chen. Shui-bian publicly and tell him to shut. up about his independence referendum and. get off that kick because he knew that. was a red line with Beijing. So that's. the last president I think we had who. understood fundamentally this economic. relationship and thought that we could.

wage it with them and at least tie them. if not win. >> The impulse to go to war with China, like in exchange of ballistic missiles. at least, where does that come from? Why. why would you want that? Why would Dick. Cheney and Rumsfeld and so many others. be advocating for that? >> I don't think they really wanted a hot. war, but the thing that scared me and. scared Colin Powell too was that they. seemed to be willing to accept it if. they couldn't get the cold war. But what. they really wanted was a replacement for.

the cold war that would put the same. pressures on us that the cold war did. and that would be good in their. in their sense. Cheney occasionally. would reveal things like a statement. we don't want people to love us, we want. people to fear us. And you know, that that was okay, but it. didn't go over that big with I think a. genuine Christian as I mean genuine. Christian, a Sermon on the Mount type. Christian that George W. Bush was.

Uh and so, in that sense, that pushed. him over into into Powell's camp. Um but they wanted that Cold War for. sure because they thought, judging from their experience for their. whole lives virtually, that was the only. way to keep the empire in power and in. check domestically and internationally. is to have that huge pressure on them. all the time. And it was also the only. way for Halliburton and Lockheed Martin.

and a host of others, whom Dick loved. and Don loved, to make a lot of money. >> But why What do you mean. when you say a Cold War would be the. only way to keep the empire together. internally? What does that mean? >> You need an external enemy. If you If. you've ever read Maybe you're too young, but uh. there's a. There was an argument over whether it. was a fanciful parody from somebody at. The New Yorker or or was it a serious. study? It was called the Report from.

Iron Mountain. Um it was a pamphlet. Lyndon Johnson, when he said it when he read it, said. told his staff to get rid of it, you. know, ban it. Um it didn't happen. The New York Times. picked up on it. It went viral. Se- Two. issues were put out. They In that report, which many thought. really was a response to Kennedy's. June speech. at American University. >> Yes. >> Um they said impossible. In that report,

they they went through all the Cold War. parameters and such, and they said. impossible. You can never have peace. The only way an empire like the United. States of America can survive is to have. a constant threat. It must have a threat. in order to survive. They He say at the end that if you could. dream up some other way of creating the. same kind of pressure that that sort of. threat did. And they even said religion.

used to do that. You know, the monarchs, the prince, the the prelate, they used. to threaten the people with God. And. that and that pretty much kept them in. line. You're going to burn in hell if. you don't do what I tell you to do, that. sort of thing. Uh Torquemada looking at. the the Muslims and saying repent, become a Christian or I'll cut your. throat. And that's what he did if they. didn't repent. Many of them repented. You could have that, but they thought. that was passé. That that kind of threat. wouldn't do the sort of thing that an. actual state threat would do. And so.

their conclusion was Kennedy was nuts. You needed that kind of external threat. to keep a country as variegated, as. diverse, and as ultimately powerful as. America was in check. You needed that. kind of threat. >> To keep your own citizens obedient? >> Yes, very much so. That's a part of it, too. To keep them towing the line and to. keep them paying their taxes and. everything that you do in a state that.

once was a republic and now is an. empire. >> This is not at all related to why I. asked you to have this conversation, but. I can't resist. Who do you think did. kill Kennedy? >> I'm fairly certain after a lot of study. I'm a hunter. I know weapons fairly. well. I know that weapon that Lee Harvey. Oswald wielded, no way it shot John Kennedy and killed. him. I don't even think he could hit him. from there. You know, the FBI guy, the. expert, tried with that very weapon three times.

to simulate the Zapruder film intervals. and get that many rounds off, even get. them off, not just accurately, and he. couldn't do it. >> Yeah. >> I think it was a combination of CIA, mafia, and probably Pentagon. And I. don't mean uh organizationally, but I. mean dissenters in all three of those. groups. >> And the motive would be what? >> They thought, especially with what he.

had done with regard to JF with regard. to Cuba in October '62, and then the. speech and. June June 10th, I think, of 1963 at. American University, that he was. serious. He was serious, and his brother was. serious with regard to the mafia and. policing it up. But Kennedy himself, the. president, was serious about seeking. first rapprochement with the Soviet. Union. Cuba had really And Berlin, too. Berlin was a more serious crisis in the.

hot summer of '61 than Cuba was. Cuba. was 13 days packed into, you know, dynamism in the UN and everything else. >> Yeah. >> And we thought it was serious. Well, Berlin was strategic for the Russians. If the GDR disappeared, and it was. disappearing at about 10,000 citizens a. week, think of that for a minute, that. we helped them build the wall. We. actually helped them build that wall. When I say helped, I mean our tanks, our. machine guns oversaw the parties. building the wall to prevent prevent.

anyone from interfering with them. We. let them build the wall because that was. the only way to staunch that flow out of. the GDR, East Germany. Uh and that was. strategic for the Russians. So, that was. a much more serious crisis, but he'd. gone through both of those. And he knew. how close we'd come to an exchange of. nuclear weapons, and he wanted an end to. that. And they thought this was uh. ephemeral wishes and even dangerous. wishes. They thought the Soviets would. pull a trick on us, you know, all the.

things you usually throw out there when. you don't trust your enemy. Um and they. were willing to take him out in order to. prevent that from happening. And they were mad at him for the Bay of. Pigs. >> Where do you think Jack Ruby came from? >> They found him somewhere. Uh I I was at Baylor University at that. time and I remember when the. announcement was made, I was absolutely. stunned. Um me and my roommate could barely talk. for about a half an hour. The. president's just been shot not too far. from us. We were in Waco. Um and then we.

were on the TV and we watched this guy. walk up to Ruby and shoot him right. there. And we at that moment Bob and I. said to ourselves, this stinks. This. really stinks. >> Yeah. When the lone gunman kills the. lone gunman, they're probably not lone. gunmen. >> Well, you got it. Yeah. Think about. Charlie Kirk for example and what's. happening right now with that. assassination, which I can't even tell. you what's happening. I don't even know. The FBI has been so unforthcoming, but I. know.

I told you, I'm a weapons guy. That did not happen the way they're. saying it happened and I doubt very. seriously if that guy stuck a .30-06. down his pants leg and walked away. >> The cost of living is already making it. hard to live here and it's not getting. any better. Unfortunately, it's likely. to get worse and a lot of Americans fill. the gap with credit cards, not just for. fancy dinners, but to cover things like. groceries and bills. That is a disaster. It's understandable, but don't go down. that road because there is a tax in.

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>> It's uh yeah, I mean, I think it's. pretty clear that the investigation into. that has not been as full as. Charlie's family and the rest of us. deserve. I mean, there's no question. about that. So, and I'm sorry to get you sidetracked, but you're obviously really. knowledgeable, and I hope you'll come. back, by the way, at some point. Um but. back to China, so the United States is is. and with Israel blowing up Chinese-built. infrastructure. So, that seems like a big step. And it. seems like in so doing, you could like. risk Chinese further participation in.

this in this conflict. Are we risking. that? >> I think we are. Um we're not at the cusp. yet, I don't think. I'm I'm waiting to. see just exactly how we deal with all. the Chinese shipping. That would be, I think, a deal breaker, and perhaps get China more infuriated, and maybe even doing more than she's. already doing. But I know too, I've been in the Central. Party School, one of the few Americans. who had. I I've been in.

uh China since 1984, and almost every other year or so, and. I've done simulations in Beijing with. the Chinese. Uh in fact, I did one in. 2009 that was called, are you ready for. this, the oil destruction exercise. We had everybody there. We had Marubeni, we had AIG, we had Lloyd's of London, we. had all the countries involved, and we. took down Ras Tanura, at that time, about 8 million barrels per day. production capacity, and West Texas.

Intermediate Brent crude went to $200. almost overnight, shippers wouldn't. ship, insurers wouldn't insure, and of. course, everyone in the room including. the Chinese, this was very instructive, but this was 2009, agreed to allow the United States Navy. and the. group of five led by Singapore with. their little navy, about one ship per. country, police the Strait of Malacca. because that's where we were threatening. another act, and let the United States.

Navy almost exclusively clear the Strait. of Hormuz and fix the situation at Ras. Tanura. And all it took at that time. because we were much bigger, we put. ships in there, we put an aircraft. carrier not too much different from. Lincoln right now, and that calmed. things down and people began to realize. that if there were problem further. problems cuz this was a terrorist attack. on Ras Tanura that we postulated, um if. things were to get out of hand again,

the United States Navy was there, and. other allied navies were there too. So. it calmed down and oil went down again, but very, very dicey moment. It was so. dicey on the game floor, Tucker. I've never seen this before, and I've. done hundreds of simulations. The Chinese actually went to move to. shift oil reserves around the world to. take care of this problem so there. wouldn't be a real global depression. develop, had to go back to their Ministry of. Foreign Affairs and consult before they.

could come back to the game floor and. make a decision. Um. >> Wow. >> Chas Freeman, Ambassador Chas Freeman. was there with us, and at breakfast the. next day, they didn't know Chas was. fluent in Mandarin. I couldn't believe that, but they. didn't. Their intelligence had failed. them on that. So we're at breakfast and. I said, "Chas, what was said?". He told me what was said. It was. interesting. I mean, they were actually. seriously worried about making a. decision that took oil at that moment.

away from China and say gave it to Korea. or gave it to some other country like. Japan that needed it more desperately. than they did cuz that's what we did for. a time. We divided the oil flows up. around the world so they'd be more. economic and more helpful to countries. that were being hurt. That was the last time I saw a real. camaraderie between Um, I think that's. fair term to use, too. Between Chinese. diplomats, Chinese and you know, we knew.

that probably 10% of the Chinese. delegation was Intel. Ours was, too. Um, but that was the last time I saw. commodity and I saw um, willingness to work together in a. significant way. And that was a dicey. situation. Very dicey on the game floor. >> How does it get reopened now, do you. think? >> I think it's going to have to be the. force of uh, of the reality of what. we're doing to the globe. I I'm looking.

very closely at economic analyses that. tell me by the end of June, if we're not. back to reasonable shipping again, we'll. be certainly in recession, global. recession. And if we go to the end of. August, we might be in global. depression. And Putin and and Trump can. say over and over again that we have. plenty of LNG and plenty of oil and. everything. It doesn't matter. Uh, you're not going to survive in that. kind of autarkic sense. Economically,

you're going to you're going to try. crash, too. So, we would be looking, I. think, at not only that coming to impact. us. and at the same time, our incredible. debt. coupled with the fact that Xi Jinping. would probably accelerate the. replacement of the dollar with renminbi. because it'd be a moment to do it. >> Yeah. So, at that point, I mean, you could see. chaos. Right? I mean, economic. >> Yeah.

>> Right. I mean, the lengths the Roosevelt. administration went to keep the country. stable, including authoritarian lengths. >> Right. >> I mean, that was their single mind. obsession. Like, if depression means. people get restless and scary and. >> I just read the uh um a history of the I. I didn't even know it existed. The. historian lives in Falls Church. He's an. old dude. He gave me a copy of it. Almost I almost dropped it. It's so. thick. It's called Recalled but Civilian. Conservation Corps. >> Yep. >> It's a wonderful book. It's just full of. pictures, but you you see what Roosevelt.

had to do. And the fact that ultimately. he had to order the army in to do that. But principally, the army became the. ingredient of the CCC that made it work. >> Well, who ran it? Everyone forgets who. ran the CCC. >> Yes. >> McArthur. >> Yeah. Yeah. But McArthur was McArthur. was a. interesting character in Roosevelt. administration. More than once FDR said. things that made anyone around him.

realize he knew how dangerous Doug. McArthur was in every sense of the term. Um and after the Bonus Marchers and. McArthur's attempt to kill them. >> Right. >> And Eisenhower was his aide at that. time. And you see Eisenhower in some of. the pictures in this book as a matter of. fact. Uh I think FDR had a real weather. eye for McArthur, but he made a huge. mistake. And he made it because he was. frightened of him. He should never have divided command in.

the Pacific. It cost 100,000 American. casualties between Nimitz and McArthur. Put McArthur in charge if you've got to. do that. But no, Stark and King wouldn't. let him. So, he had to compensate Stark. and King and the Navy and give them the. Central Pacific, MacArthur the Southwest. Pacific. We had a bloody strategy in the. center, a bloody strategy. We didn't. need to take half of those islands. MacArthur showed us what to do. You just. bypass them and let them wither.

>> Exactly. >> You don't attack them, but we attacked. them in the Central Pacific. >> What. do you think Israel will do. and will have to do if come June or July. or August when the economic effects. become impossible to ignore, dangerous. to everybody, regimes around the world. teeter and fall in the face of recession. and depression, and the United States. says, you know, we're just we're out. That leaves the Iranian regime in char-.

really in charge and more powerful than. it was on a, you know, February 27th. Can Israel live with that? >> I think not, and you probably know what. I think about the Jewish state of. Israel. I don't think it has a long run. on life. I don't think it can survive in the. Levant because the original conception. was a safe haven, and it's anything but. a safe haven, and that's been. demonstrated markedly to all of its. Jewish citizens, many of whom have left.

And probably more would have left if. Netanyahu would let them. Um so I I think it can survive as a as a. democracy, a true democracy, that is to. say, Palestinian Arabs, Christians, everyone living there, and Jews living. there with them. Um and I don't buy the power of the womb. bit. I don't think that would be so. overwhelmingly quick that you couldn't. adjust the democracy to be a real. democracy, even if the Jewish citizens. of it suddenly became a minority. Um or.

I don't think it would be suddenly, as I. said, I think it'd be over time. But. they don't want to do that, and I so I. think they are they're sealing their own. demise as a state at all in the Levant. Um, dem- democratic or otherwise. And. so, you're right. It's a dangerous. situation. And what we're doing in. Lebanon right now is just. unconscionable. West Bank is bad enough, but Lebanon, we're killing. two or 300 civilians about every 48 or. 96 hours. And they're just civilians. We're bombing dry cleaners. We're.

bombing bars. We're bombing restaurants. We're bombing hotels. We, I say, I. always say we because Israel couldn't do. it without us. Um, and it's it we built. the most expensive, largest embassy in. the world. Where did we build it? We. built it in Beirut. Why did we do that? Well, it isn't for diplomacy. We built it there because it's a haven. for Mossad, MI6, and CIA. And because we. plan on in that center piece in the. Eastern Mediterranean mounting our guns.

against China. And Russia, too, if we. have to. Um, but we don't have any. respect for Lebanon. Lebanon could. disappear tomorrow morning and our. embassy would still be there, fortified. to the hilt, of course. Um, we just. don't care anymore. And we're lashed up. with the wrong people in Lebanon. We. always have been, really. >> Who are Who are the right people in. Lebanon? >> The right people are the people that. Hassan Nasrallah was trying to introduce. to the political situation, cease his.

uh militaristic angle, and become the. politician in Lebanon who would finally, after years and years, consolidate the. government and have a government that. the majority of Lebanese could support. And Netanyahu, what did Netanyahu do? Of. course, that's what he he kills the. people he needs. >> We pray that the war with Iran ends. immediately, but the truth is it doesn't. seem to be. If you're the head of. household, you need to think through. what this could mean for you and the. people you're in charge of. Don't wait.

for disaster to strike to ensure that. you have the basics covered. Food, water, light, energy. And that's exactly. why we started a company called Last. Country Supply. It's our store that. carries the same preparedness products. that we have, well, in this barn, for. example. The products that give any head. of household peace of mind knowing that. if something bad happened, you could. take care of the people you're. responsible for. So, continue to pray. for an end to war and violence, but also. at the same time make sure that your. family is ready. Stock up on the. products that we trust at last.

countrysupply.com/tucker. So, what I mean, what is Israel's goal. in Lebanon? Israelis say, I I don't know. if it's true, but that the IDF is just. stretched to breaking. Can't possibly. occupy southern Lebanon, much less, you. know, Beirut all the way down. So, like, what is the point of this? >> I've always thought that Israel's real. policies, and I've been associated with.

for this for 50 years, with respect to Lebanon, was demolishing periodically its. economic capacity. Remember, Lebanon way. back there was the pearl of the eastern. Mediterranean. >> Oh, yes. >> It's a place where everybody wanted to. go. Beirut was beautiful. And. Israel then came along. And Israel. became, on our dollar to a certain. extent, a very uh capitalistic, predatory capitalistic, and successful.

in that regard, economy. And wanted to. stay that way, and even wanted to grow. and grow and bring in other people to. that economy under the Jewish writ, of. course, but nonetheless, come in, Abraham. Abraham Accords being one latest. example. And so, they had to take Lebanon down a. peg every time. If you go back and. examine those bombing campaigns, even. the '82 invasion, when they were really. after PLO and Arafat,

they bombed the bejeezus out of the. economic structure of Lebanon. And at. the time we military officers saying, "Why are they doing that? That's just. making them hate them. Why are they. doing that? They don't need to do that.". And then, you know, stupid us, we. figured it out after about two or three. iterations, they're bombing the hell out. of their economic might so they can't, you know, 10 years to get back up again. Then they bomb them again. >> That's very, very dark. I mean, and we paid for it. So, what do you what.

do you think I mean. President Trump. didn't explain really why he began this. war other than to say Iran can't have a. nuke, which is not an adequate. explanation. What do you think the the real motive. was in starting a war with Iran? >> I think that New York Times piece, as. much as I hate to praise the great lady. these days, um, was pro- probably fairly accurate. I. think most of his advisers, the the.

principal ones anyway, were saying no. or, you know, arguing negatively. And Netanyahu persuaded him to do it. Now, why did he listen to Netanyahu when. everyone else, the ants, probably everyone but Hegseth, um, was at least somewhat opposed if not. strongly opposed, which I'm told with. some reliable information that came was. the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of. Staff and others on the military in the. military.

Um, it it was persuasive because Netanyahu. said it. And I can't tell you whether it. was Miriam Adelson's millions or. Trump's uh I don't think he's got a real. high regard for Bibi Netanyahu in terms. of loving him. But something there told him, indicated. to him that he needed to go against all. of his advisers and follow Netanyahu's. recommended course of action, which of. course I think is disastrous. And yet he. did.

>> Does America's relationship with Israel. change after this is over? >> I don't see how it can remain the same. Um. with a new president who's got to pick. up on what's happening with the American. people. Um not least of which caused by Charlie. Kirk. >> Yeah. >> What's happening with American people. even in the core of Maga. under 40 in particular and under 20.

on college campuses and things like that. generally is don't like Israel, period. Even I could have used a stronger word. than don't like. >> Why. Why do you connect that to Charlie Kirk? >> Because I think he was changing his mind. and it was obvious he was changing his. mind about being so attached to Israel. both in terms of US security and in. terms of just the American people. I. think he was beginning to realize that.

it was poisonous and that was dangerous. I don't for a minute think that we might. not find out down the road something. about his assassination that resembles. Kennedy's. and Martin Luther King's and others. who've been shot in our country which is. you know, for for for people overseas. sometimes who I talk to. infrequently now but used to talk to a. lot like in France and England and. Germany. >> Yeah. >> They don't understand why we kill people.

at the rate we kill people, you know, and as an American I say, "Wait a. minute. Wait a minute." And they'll tick. them off, you know. All the way back to Roosevelt becoming. president, you know, because they. thought they got rid of him as vice. president and all of a sudden McKinley's. killed. They'll They'll tick those things off. all the way back to Lincoln and they'll. say, "You're pretty violent country. You. assassinate people quite frequently. >> So, it's it's I've had a very similar. experience. Um. uh. in every country I've ever been to other.

than this one, um they don't buy it. But, I want I mean it But, you think. that's that's correct. It's pretty. obvious that lone gunmen seem to kill. people who were a challenge to. entrenched power, and maybe that's not. an accident. >> Yes. Yes. More often than not, I think. it's not an accident. I I just uh. You If you go back and you look at any. of the empires of old, but particularly. the Eastern and Western Roman Empire, the Eastern figured it out by the time.

by by the time it came the Byzantine. Empire, uh and Constantinople. uh. turned around on the then ruling. entities'. adaptation of Christianity. and mellowed out a little bit. Um that. famous period there uh probably extended. their life by. years, if not decades and generations. If you look at those people at the head. of those groups, whether it's like Mary.

Beard's new book, The Twelve Caesars, Suetonius's Twelve Caesars between. Julius crossing the Rubicon and walking. decidedly into assassination, even. though he was warned multiple times, should have known, walks in the Senate, he's assassinated, and then Octavian and. the civil war start, and then Octavian. becomes Augustus and consolidates the. empire, and the Roman Republic is gone. Gone. Totally gone. And you look at the. period that she writes about, those 12.

Caesars, roughly between Julius Caesar. and Suetonius, and you see the. depravity. You see Epstein all through. it, you know? And you understand what that does to. you. Well, from since '45, arguably, with the Cold War as a check on us and. then since the end of the Cold War with. no check whatsoever, we have turned into that version of the. Western Roman Empire. >> Ah, it's distressing to see it. Can I.

ask you a bigger question? I. remember when I was much younger and I. would run into guys, you know, your age. who served at, you know, the highest. levels of government in Washington, and. they were always much more open to the. existence of conspiracies. And I just wonder if, you know, we. deride conspiracy theories, but the. people who. seem to believe in them the most are. also the most knowledgeable. Have you. Have you noticed that? >> I have noticed that. Yes. And the people.

who can talk about them most explicitly. and carefully in in chambers, as it. were. >> Yes. >> You know, they are those people. >> That's so interesting. So when you were, I don't know, 30, you probably didn't believe that that. stuff was real, I assume. >> I did not. I I had great faith in my. country, great faith in people like. George Washington and Abraham Lincoln. and Thomas Jefferson and a host of. others. I knew they were flawed, but. I had great faith in their.

building power and in their faith in. what they built. Uh I can't say that. anymore. I can't say that anymore and I. can even. particularly with Jefferson, I can even. Powell used to quote him to me all the. time because he loved Jefferson's. inaugural addresses. He he would pick. out pieces and like pieces like, "I know. I shall leave this office much more. chagrined than I entered it." You know, that sort of thing. >> Yes. >> I know I won't survive. My reputation.

won't survive. Um which is one reason. why Powell decided in 1995 not to run. for president. Um he essentially said, "I understand what Jefferson meant and. I'm not willing to suffer it. Um. But anyway, it it it it's been, you. know, I'm 81 now, and I got to say in. the years since I entered. in 1993, arguably, or even 89 when I was. with him when he was chairman, the. highest realms of American power and was. exposed to that power, I have really.

become uh a cynic about our ability even. to survive much longer in a way that uh. is anything like our past. >> What what do you think the future holds? Like 10 years out, what will we be. looking at? >> I'm really worried about AI. I'm really. worried about it. I don't know if you. saw that piece the other day by that. gentleman, I forget his name now, from. Cambridge, I believe, who sold some of. his AI development. He's sort of the.

Oppenheimer of the AI movement to. Google, and he said he was on his bench. outside his lab or something, and all of. a sudden his cell phone rang, and it was. his AI. And it was checking up on him. And he he. had a, you know, an epiphany right there. on the bench. This is dangerous what. we're doing. >> Do you Do you have a clear picture of. what some of the effects might be? >> Well, I'm seeing the effects already on. young people whom I stay in contact with.

at GW and GW and women married. I probably had roughly 600 students over. the 16 years I taught, and they a lot of. them stay in contact with me. One of. them was the EA to Mark Carney Carney, and when Mark ran and was elected in. Canada, he got shifted to another guy by. Mark, and I said, "Well, who are you. working for now?" And he said, "Mike. Bloomberg.".

So, I have students all over the place, and they stay in touch with me, and they. reflect the same angst I have, but in a. much more visceral way because it's. their future. It's their life. Um and they're extremely worried about. AI. >> Because they think it will eliminate. their jobs or eliminate human autonomy? >> That's part of it, but the latter is the. bigger part of it. And there's also a. component of it that is there's no way.

we're going to survive with that in our. midst. >> Because. >> Not as humans. Your human autonomy. business is probably as good a. description of it as anything else. But. there are a couple of them who think. we're going to wind up in a huge. conflict between AI generated AI led AI. whatever. robots and ourselves. And you know, I. I'm I'm one who has always read and.

watched science fiction. Because more often than not, there's. something in that H.G. Wells piece or. that Lucas piece or whatever Star Trek, pick your pick your video adaptation. that's true. That's going to come about. Um and I see and I think they see too. because they're much more visual video. oriented generation than I was. I was. mostly the written word oriented.

generation. Um they see that too. They see some of. the science fiction that's been most uh. dire, most dour uh coming about. >> Is there any way to stop it? >> That's the question of the hour, I. think, with regard to it and robotics, too. Um are we going to be able to. manage it? Um there was a gentleman not. too too long ago. who made a statement, I think he was a. NASA scientist.

We have been given incredible powers. We. have been given incredible riches. And. he was referring to the United States. We have also been given wisdom. The question in the future is going to. be, will we use it or will we be. overcome? I think that's a huge question. Um and I don't I don't count myself in. the camp of those who think it's. impossible to eliminate the human race. It is not impossible. Nuclear weapons,

the newest technology in the world, no. empire in all of 5,000 years of empires. has ever possessed the technological. means to destroy itself and others. around it. None. Not a single one. And to think that human nature will. allow us to get through a demise of. empire. without ultimately trying that method to. save it, I think is wishful thinking.

>> And we're we're at that point right now. because we're looking at the end of the. American empire, looking at an actual. threat to Israel. I mean, it's I mean, you just described it. There there's an. actual threat for the first time in a. long time. The greatest threat, right? And that's a nuclear armed power. So. >> And we're we're at that point as you as. you well know, without a single treaty. They're all gone now. Every single one. from the ABM treaty all the way to new.

start. Gone. No treaties. >> So, do you think that this. administration can navigate a moment. this fraught without. either using or allowing its partner in. this to use nuclear weapons? >> I'm not given confidence by a man who. argues with the Pope and dresses up as. Jesus the Christ as Jesus Christ for an. ad. I I I know he probably didn't do. that intentionally, but he allowed it to. happen. And this argument with Leo is just.

absurd. >> What do you What do you What do you How. would you interpret that? >> Well, I think he's backing up from it a. bit. I wish he'd back up a little more. abruptly and a little more. apologetically. But, it's done. The damage is done. And. done at a moment when Leo, the first. Augustinian, is headed for Africa to go. to Augustus's place and sort of. celebrate. I mean, it just didn't make.

It was bad timing and it was bad juju. all around to do that. And I know from my own experience, and. it's as I said, seven decades of sentient experience. anyway, that we've had an effort in this. country for a long, long time, very. sotto voce, if you will, under the. table, to create an American Catholic Church. and have our own pope. And I remember when Leo's. rise was first announced, when his.

selection was announced, I said, "Ooh, that'll put a stop to that because an. American is now the pope in Rome." But, I didn't think long enough. That's not what they want. They want an. American pope, and they want an American. Catholic Church. Now, right now, I know. it's a minority of Catholics, but it is. a powerful minority of Catholics, and. they've been around for at least 100. years, not very successfully around, but. nonetheless, they pursued that for a.

long time. >> Why would people, and pardon my. ignorance as a birthright Protestant, I. wasn't even aware of any of this, why. would people want an American Catholic. Church? >> Then they wouldn't have to take any. instructions at all from Rome. None at all. Rome would just be out. there. There wouldn't be any uh. any real power of the pope in Rome. And I I suspect doctrinally they try to. divorce that Pope from the idea of being.

from God. >> Huh. Are there Is there like an. ideological motivation or theological. motivation? >> I think it's all power. I do. I really. do. I think people who have come out of. great awakenings, and I by the way think. this is our fourth one. Most historians won't go with me yet, but I bet you in 10 or 20 years they. will look back on this period and they. will call it a great awakening, just. like they did the one that produced. prohibition and an amendment to the. Constitution to prohibit alcohol, and.

then an amendment to resend it. Um very. damaging periods in our history, whether. it was burning witches or prohibition. Um that really that prohibition really. generated the momentum for organized. crime. Al Capone was the first, you know, organized criminal, if you will. Um so. they're dangerous periods, and if we get. out of this one without any more danger, I mean, Hegseth is holding I got it. yesterday. I couldn't believe it.

I I just couldn't believe that this this. had developed. OSW protocol prayer. services have been going on every week. for 13 months. Um and always with the same line. General officers and admirals will have. reserved seats in the front rows. All. else will sit elsewhere. No one is. allowed to come in but those invited. It's all on the invitation. This is not. very American. This is uncommonly.

un-American, really. It makes religion. and the military the way Hegseth is. doing it. It's very dangerous. And he's. also preacher packing, we used to say in. South Carolina, putting the rotten. strawberries on the bottom bottom and. the fresh strawberries on the top. The. ranks. He's making sure very carefully that. he's eliminating flag and admiral. officers who are or might be opposed to.

the military becoming a defender of. Christianity as the national religion. And he's doing the lower ranks, too. And. he's doing them by doing such things as. he's seeding Congress' limits on mental. category four recruits. They're think. McNamara's hundred thousand, if you. will. They can't even read their name on. the guard roster. They usually come from. the mountains of West Virginia, or from. the interior of Oklahoma, or my state of. South Carolina, or Alabama. So, hate to. blame the those states, but nonetheless,

they produce these people that at an. alarming rate. And he's getting them in. at the tune Congress put a 4% cap on it. Well, he got 11% the last time around. The Inspector General, brave man he, went over and told the. Congress. And what Hicks had told the. Congress when they called him over to. testify was, "Well, we created a. school within the army. This is the. army. And that school taught them how to pass.

the entrance exam.". You want to know what they did? They. taught the test. And so, then they gave. them the test again, and all of a. sudden, they leapt up into mental. category four. And 7% of them did that, so we didn't. exceed your cap. We We kept your cap, 4%. That's just a dog and pony show. They're. taking people in who are. What shall I say? Well, a good a good example of it that's.

very, very illustrative is the 50 or 60. that go out of basic training into the. river there at Fort Jackson, and get. baptized in the name of Jesus Christ and. are told by the chaplain when they rise. from the water that they are soldiers. for Christ. What Hegseth wants is even the oath. changed from to the Constitution, the. oath should be to Jesus Christ. >> But. I mean, the.

the Gospels don't provide any basis for. that theology at all. I mean, that's not. the Sermon on the Mount. would preclude like a lot of things the. US military are doing right now in Iran. So, I guess my concern would be the. corruption of the Gospels by this. >> Absolutely. And and talk about. corruption, Franklin Graham in the. center courtyard of the Pentagon, where. I've been a number of times for. ceremonies with old secretaries of.

defense, once escorted McNamara in. there, had a good talk with him about. Vietnam as I escorted him. And he was very contrite. He was. actually contrite as we walked in. I was. a lieutenant colonel at the time. Billy. Graham Franklin Graham, Billy Graham's. son, of course, and Billy Graham must be. rolling in his grave cuz I I knew him. He was not this way. Franklin Graham. gave a sermon for Hegseth. on those grounds. that would make Ted Cruz happy.

He resurrected all the stuff Cruz was. talking about in an interview with you, I believe. And from Genesis and talked about how. you had to sometimes kill everything in. sight, men, women, children, and so. forth. in the center courtyard of the Pentagon. >> Well, that's like blasphemy, it seems to. me. >> It is to me, too. I'm I mean, I'm a. Christian, but I'm not that kind of Christian. >> Yeah. Well, I don't think there is that.

kind of Christian, is my view. Um what. an what an amazing unexpected. conversation. I'm sorry to take you on. all these different tangents. I hope you. will come back um because your. the scope of your thinking and the grasp. of history that you have is is amazing. So, I appreciate it. Colonel Wilkinson, thank you very much. >> Well, I appreciate the opportunity and I. must say I'm impressed with yours, too. >> Well, not not really, but I but I'm. interested. I think it matters. >> I've. watched a lot of your interviews and.

I'm impressed with what I. particularly when you do things like. what you did with Ted Cruz. >> Well, that was easy. >> The very idea the very idea that I. consult Genesis for national security. decision-making just drove me back. against the wall. I couldn't believe. that. >> Especially when he didn't know what was. in Genesis. It's some unbelievable. Anyway, thank. you very much. Great to talk to you. >> Thank you. Take care.