Oliver Stone & Peter Kuznick: War Profiteering, Nuclear Tech, NATO v. Russia, & War With Iran

Thank you both very much. Oliver, you first. How close do you think we are to. nuclear war right now? That's why I came up here. Yes. Ah, down here. Yes. Just tell you I'm scared. I'm really scared.

I've been talking about it off and. on since 2014 when. the Ukraine thing happened. Yes, I was saying this is. frightfully like there's a lot of. elements of World War One, the. alliances, the Natal. alliance and yes, the United. States is involved, but. And its hatred for Russia. is astonishing to me, considering the recent history, the last 20, 20 years.

Before that, there was no reason. for us to pick on Russia. and go back to this Cold. War neo cold war that we have. That's what I don't understand. And I've been talking to Peter about. it. It's it defies logic. because he says it's the neocons. in Washington that started that. and they never left. You know, they were always there. Brzezinski From the Carter days. So these are old arguments. I heard them with my father, who was. a conservative, relatively.

conservative, who was in New York. City back in 1950, that the Russians were going to. invade us. And this was the. very much the feeling that McCarthy. was saying, they're in the schools, they're in their churches or in the. But that's just it was such. paranoia. And I think you know, that now you. you grew up like a. conservative Jew. Yes. You know, when did you say, well, I. Am conservative and stood on many. things, but I. see no reason to be at war with. Russia. And I don't know why Russia.

would be an enemy that they're. part of the West. It's shocking to me because what. Biden did and I voted for. him in 2018, he never talked about. changing the Russia policy. Yes, he never did. And he never gave us any kind of. knowledge of education about what. he was thinking. But he seems to be an. all out, all out cold warrior. I guess everything he's done. has been to antagonize him. In fact, he called he called the. president of Russia a thug and a. murderer before he got elected.

So he hasn't been very diplomatic? No, I would say not about it. It must be strange for you just. to have grown up in the Democratic. Party. As the Republican Party. Right. But I mean, as an adult, to see the party that was the party. of peace and reconciliation become. the war. For anything is turned around. Everything is turned around. With Peter, we were talking last. night and Peter is my coauthor. on on the History of the United. States. And we've been taught he. taught me a lot of this history.

because he's specializes in it for. many years. But here we are with this situation. where Democrats. I want to want war. They push war. They pushing the strategy. of weakening Russia. Yes, it's a self-defeating. suicidal strategy. What's the purpose of it? What did they do to us? What did they do? I don't understand. I don't know. What did they do to. hurt us? And what has Ukraine to do with. that distance for us.

to do this involvement with NATO, this NATO, and also. for me as a half European. My mother is French. I spent NATO in Europe as a kid. What I've seen is a huge change. in Europe. That's what's terrifying. to me, why the people don't. want war. But the EU, which is this. political over over writer, seems to want war. And because the leadership in the EU. is very elite.

people who seem to come from the. same school. Factory or whatever they produced. by they. They seem to think the same. way that Russia is going to invade. Europe again, that we're back to. that World War Two argument, which. was nonsense in the first place. Yes. So here you. go. Russia wants Ukraine. and then they're going to go for. Poland. That's what Kamala Harris. said at one point. That's the. stupidest statement I've ever heard. And I think from a political leader, just ignore it. No education, no history.

What do you think accounts for. big picture, the hostility of. NATO and Europe to. Russia? What is that? It's got to be education. It's got to be propaganda. This. They believe these things. The woman who runs the EU is Ursula. She constantly says these things. that are ignorant, ignorant of what's happened in the. last 20, 30 years, ignoring what. happened in the 90s in Russia. She's just they're not taking this. into account. I talked to Macron at one point and.

he was very reasonable. man. I thought he was saying things. like we need more nuclear energy in. France. Right? Great. And now he turns around and he's. saying that Putin was he's. ready to send French troops into. Ukraine. The British are the worst. Starmer, this prime minister, this. new prime minister, labor, prime. minister, you know, he is he's quite. he said yes. Two days ago. He said, we. have to we have to punish. Putin to the maximum.

Because he's relentless. That's when he said we have to. punish. So there's an aspect of personal. a personal thing about Putin. Like Biden made it personal, saying. that he is a thug and a murderer. and and Starmer saying. he has to be punished. Putin has to be punished, not. Russia. It's bizarre. We didn't talk like this back when. we were mature back in the 50s 60s. when you talked about Russia as. an enemy because we thought it was. adversarial. Yes, I am. I disagree with that. But we thought so and we acted.

as such. But we didn't personally. insult Khrushchev for Brezhnev, of. course. And here we are insulting them. constantly. So Biden, I think, is is. I some. people say Blinken has taken. control of his mind. I don't know. But Anthony Blinken. is is trained in the Hillary. Clinton diplomatic school. He was for many years he's been. under her wing. Yes. So is, I gather, Jake. Sullivan. The diplomatic is a little strong by.

diplomacy. It's just, you know, regime change, kill the leader you. disagree with. The diplomacy is a dirty word now in. the United States. Okay. But, Peter, I'm interested in your. perspective. Like why do you think. The entire United States from. a position of greater weakness, has with Europe pivoted against. Russia of all the potential enemies. Why Russia? What else is new? Right. We've been going after. Russia since 1917. We got very mad at them. Well.

after in World War One, Lenin and Trotsky pulled. Russia out of the alliance. and had the Treaty of Brest-litovsk, where they gave away a massive. amount of Russia to Germany. in order to get peace at that. point. And what does the United. States do with the Brits and the. Japanese and others? We send troops into the. Soviet Union. In 1918, there were 15,000. American troops there. And Churchill wanted to overthrow.

the new Soviet government. He said we should strangle. Bolshevism in the cradle. So this goes way back to then. We didn't even recognize the Soviet. Union until Roosevelt was in power. in 1933. So and then during the war, they became our ally. Yes. And in fact, they were the ones. who won the war in Europe. Correct. But I asked my students, who won the war in Europe. You know, people grew up believing. that the Americans won the war in. Europe. It's not true. It's not even close to the truth.

We certainly contributed a lot. during World War Two. But the Soviets, throughout most of. World War Two, the US and the. Britain were combined, confronting. ten German divisions between. two of us, while the Soviets. were confronting more than 200. German divisions on their own. That's why. that's why everybody understood. what Kennedy says and. his great 1963 American. University commencement address. What the Soviets suffered in World.

War Two is the equivalent. of the entire United States east of. Chicago having been wiped out. You know, so you would think that we. would be friendly with them. afterwards. And Roosevelt had a vision for that. In fact, Roosevelt promised Stalin. in May of 1942. that we would open up the second. front before the end of 1942. He asked Sound to send over Molotov. and a trusted general for that. meeting and the White House in 1942. And we made that promise.

We don't open up the second front to. June of 44, and by. that point, we had lost all. the diplomatic initiative the. Soviets had, were defeating. Germany largely on their own with. their support of US material. And so they were pushing back the. Germans over Central Europe. and Eastern Europe. And so the idea that Roosevelt. gave away anything at Yalta. that the Soviets didn't already have. is nonsense. The Soviets had that area. and the south was 40. That's 44, 45.

Then unfortunately, Roosevelt died. And even more unfortunately, Truman. became president instead of Henry. Wallace, which is another story I. hope we can get into, because Oliver. and I do a lot of about that. and untold history. And we argue that had Wallace become. president on April 12th, 45, 1945, instead of Truman, there would have not only been no. atomic bombings in World War Two. There would have likely been no Cold. War. History could have been so,

so different. But instead, we develop this. enmity toward the Soviet Union. Instead of seeing that our allies. who suffered so greatly and showing. some largesse and generosity, we begin to vilify them. after that. And the crackdown that happens. in Eastern Europe doesn't happen. immediately. That takes place over the next. couple of years. So much gradual process. They allowed a good degree of. democracy in most of Eastern Europe. until really the.

Truman Doctrine, 1947. Really. And then after that, then the Cold. War is on. And but Kennedy. was the one who saw it differently. And we can go into that, too. Anyway, I give you a lot of history. very, very quickly. None of that is surprising, but none of it, I would say, accounts for the shift after. that. The one that Oliver referred. to after 2014 Maidan, but. Actually starts earlier because. we when the Soviet. Union collapsed, 1989,

1990, 1991, during. that period, we had a chance. to actually reach out in a. more, more positive way. But it's in 1990. that Charles Krauthammer, the. neocon theorist, says. the Soviet Union has collapsed. Says this is America's unipolar. moment. He says, we're the only force in the. world that can dictate. world events. And he said the unipolar moment.

is likely over the last 30 or. 40 years. It was in 1992. that we come out with the defense. planning guidance, which is a much. more elaborate plan of how we're. going to dominate. The world. And then 1997, the Project for a New American. Century takes shape. And that really fleshes it out. much greater. And they say in that 2000 report. that we're able to rebuild. our defenses as quickly as we. want unless we have a new.

Pearl Harbor. And they got that in 2001. with 911. And so then we invaded Afghanistan. then. Krauthammer Let me ask you, what do you think the people who. said that we need a new Pearl Harbor. in order to rebuild? How do you think they felt about. 911? I think they saw it. as a tragedy and an opportunity. You know, I think they. You're not suggesting they knew. about it? No, I'm not suggesting that. And all of. A sudden, I think it's a mystery.

In what sense? I think it's a mystery. I don't. think it's solved because. Because all the events of 911 have. not come out. No, they haven't. Why do you think that is? I. I would have to really. study this, but it's just so many. questions. I have so many of. this. This is not the subject today. But yes, it leads to this. feeling that there's a cabal or. something in Washington that has. been there, kind of a strange. ghost like cabal that goes back to. the 60s with Kennedy's murder.

Yes. That continues in. some strange embodiment. today. And I don't know. It sounds. It sounds like it, but. it's just a strange concept. But you have to think about, well. We can assess it because the files. are still classified. 23 years later, is there something. about conspiracies now? I mean, all them a lot. of the lunatics have come out of the. asylum. No doubt. Yes. But there's a lot out there in. the public that really should be. examined and questioned and. Yes. Asked. And that's that's what the.

establishment's freaking out because. it's we're overloading it. You know, it's running over the. ramparts now. They can't defend them anymore. Yes. I mean, they're saying. Well, you were you were once derided. as a conspiracy. I don't I don't think so anymore. I But I'm still alive. You've you've you've lived to see. your own vindication. Well, yeah, in a sense. I mean, I'd love to see Kennedy. understood better by the mass. because, you know, you. You still hear this. silly Lee Harvey Oswald. did it stuff. You know, I mean,

it it they allegedly. they never said alleged you know, alleged killer. They always say killer. Well, you know, those are I. feel sorry that that happened. But that's a bigger story now. It's a bigger story because now it's. the world is at stake. It's not the life of one man. He had a vision, as Peter. said, of humanizing Russia, bringing them into the world. community that was defeated. when he was killed, though, was very. badly defeated. Khrushchev felled shortly.

thereafter the the premier of. Russia. He fell, too, because. he wasn't sufficiently strong with. the United States or. both. He caved in during the Cuban Missile. Crisis. So his hawks wanted. to get rid of him for being too. weak. But let me go back. to what Oliver saying, because in. October of 1962, right after the missile crisis, two. weeks later, Khrushchev writes an. incredible letter to Kennedy. in which he says, From evil, some good must come.

Our people have both felt the. burning flames of thermonuclear. war. We have to use this. now to eliminate every. conflict between us that. could lead to a new crisis. And Kennedy and Khrushchev slowly. on Kennedy's part, more rapidly. on Khrushchev's. They began working together in 63. Norman Cousins was the intermediary. and he met with Khrushchev twice. and made it clear that the United. States really did want to have a. peaceful reconciliation.

And had Kennedy lived. in his new commencement. address that I mentioned is, I think, the most important. presidential address of the 20th. century. And you flesh that out a little bit. His last big speech he gave before. he was murdered in front. Of a great speech. What did he say? Well, and Norman Cousins came. back from Russia and said. Khrushchev needs some obvious. signal that you're serious. And so and his and Norman. Cousins actually wrote the first. draft. And then Kennedy took.

it. And. and they didn't let the CIA, the State Department or the. Pentagon, even see it beforehand, which is why Kennedy was able to it. was called the strategy for peace. speech. And is what he says there, among. other things, is that the. relationship between the US and. Soviets is tragic. Why should we be enemies? Why should we see them as enemies? Edward Kennedy could do and he. doesn't have speech is see the. world through the eyes of America's. adversaries.

When was the last time we had a. leader who could do that. in the Carter? Maybe for a minute. Obama Maybe for a minute, but. almost nobody else. So what Kennedy says is so. relevant today. He says to put a. nuclear adversary. in a position with suffering. a humiliating defeat or. using nuclear weapons is either. a colossal failure of statesmanship. or a collective death wish for. humanity, which is exactly.

what Biden is. doing it. It's what we face right now. Yeah. So how was that speech. received? It wasn't as appreciated as it is. now. It should be read. How was it received in Washington? I would think a lot of people didn't. like it because. They saw him as some kind of. idealistic fruitcake. Yes, I really think so. Certainly, he'd fire Dulles and he'd. find the top people at the CIA. But I think there's a deeper. people in economic activity. Also were upset with him because.

there were changes in the economics. of the play. The Democrats were. gearing up for the future. They were going to win the next. election. Their second, second term. was very important, and they had a. third term possibility with Robert. Kennedy and a fourth term. possibility with Teddy Kennedy. There was a possibility of another. Roosevelt. That was what's. terrifying to the Republicans, I think certainly to my father. and I. And I think that ties in. You were asked earlier why, You. know why. And I'm racking.

my brain, but I go back to my. father, who was a stockbroker, a. very good one. And, you know, he was intellectually. wrote about it to him. It was it goes back to the World. War one again, to this concept. of they changed their system. They broke the rule. The international the rules, the rules based order was changed. because now, yes, not only did. they break the treaty, they know. secret treaties was one of the first. things they did. And all these. treaties from World War One came. out, the. secret treaties that France, England.

had signed before the war. So that was you see, that came. out and the German treaties. came out. So that was. but it was economic in the sense. that in the United States we had a. lot of strikes going on domestically. or we'd have strikes going on since. the 1870s. But there was a worldwide sentiment. for revolution in the workers. socialist socialist movement, in fact, in France and in fact in. England. I mean, it's well, well. known in Germany was very much.

moving towards. a workers revolution. Yeah. So premature. That was the most scary thing to. Woodrow Wilson. It was the Russians are going to. destabilize the whole world. And Churchill was right there and he. wasn't the leader. But certainly the. English felt the same way. And they were the leaders in. World War One. So they they had. a stake in getting rid of. Russia. That's why the Starmer's recent. comment the other day about. punishing Putin to the maximum.

is very striking to me. The British have led the charge. against Russia forever. And that goes back to 1998. and NATO's expansion. And then in 1997, Brzezinski. lays it out in his book The. Grand Chessboard, which. Feith and Libby and Hadley. were also writing about just at the. same time. And what Brzezinski says in the. Grand Chessboard is that if. you can separate Ukraine. from Russia, then Russia.

will never be a Eurasian. superpower again. They had a strategy for. doing exactly what they did. for quite some time before that. This is not something that they've. just thought up in 2014. Do you ever feel like you can't. trust the things you hear or read? Like every news source. is hollow, distorted or clearly. just propaganda lying to you? Well, you're not imagining it. If the last few years have proven. anything, it's that legacy. media exists.

to distort the truth and to control. you, to keep information from the. public instead of letting you know. what's actually going on. They don't want you to know. But there is so however, a. publication that fights this. but is not propaganda. One that we read every month and. have for many years is call him. Primus. It's from Hillsdale College in. Michigan. And Primus is a free. speech digest that features. some of the best minds in the. country addressing the questions. that actually matter, the ones that. are not addressed in the Washington. Post or on NBC News. The best part of it, it is free.

No cost whatsoever. No strings attached. They just send it to you. Hillsdale will send in Primus right. to your house. No charge. All you got to do is ask. Go to Tucker for hillsdale.com. and subscribe for free today. That's Tucker for hillsdale.com. The only way this stays a democracy. is if the citizenry is informed. You can't fight tyranny if you don't. know what's going on in Primus. helps. It's free. Don't worry. Sign up now. So, Oliver, you know Putin as. well as any American, or you spend.

at least as much time with him as. any living American. Characterize what he's like, if. you. Would. I might just finish, Mike. Of course. Yeah, It's. complicated. I just. We're talking about why I just. feel the economics are crucial to. understand in the sense that. the fear of a Russian. revolution affecting American. workers is gigantic. Workers started to emigrate to. Russia in the 1920s to work. Their conditions were supposed to be. better. We talk about it in the.

book. And America was moving. away from the capitalist. ideal that existed. I think that plays a huge role. coming after World War Two. Also after World War One, of course, is that war one leads. to World War Two in my mind. But let's jump to World War two. after World War Two. They were terrified. Republicans were terrified that. the Depression would return. The depression had been a horrible. experience for many Americans.

They were poor. They had nothing. They were terrified that it would. come again. Yeah. So the whole concept started. up in the Congress of 45. with Republicans turning. that winning. They had won a lot of. seats. Right, to six. Yeah. And they're talking about. an economy, a war economy all. of a sudden, like keeping people at. full employment. What are we going to do with all. these men coming back? Yes. And the women have taken. their jobs. We got to keep people working. So we're going to get into this.

military business. And that's what we did. off and on. We did it through the arrows. up to where Eisenhower says in 1960, you know, he's built the greatest. nuclear force and army. of all time. He has in 1960, we have how many warheads? We had 185 ICBMs. and the Russians had four. Yeah, but I'm talking about in 1960. when Kennedy comes in. We increase it by 1000. And the Joint. Chiefs, the Air Force want the.

10,000 Joint Chiefs wanted 3000, I think it was. And McNamara said the lowest number. we can get away with is 1000. So from the Soviet perspective, they thought the United States was. already ahead between 10 to 1. and 100 to 1 in every category. And now they see us adding a. thousand more ICBMs. So the Kremlin interpreted. that the US are preparing for a. first strike against the Soviet. Union, which is part of the reason. why they put the missiles into Cuba.

to try to offset that, at least to. some degree. You know, but again, you know, Kennedy got a briefing. on July 20th, 1961, about a. secret advanced preemptive strike, nuclear strike to wipe out the. Soviet Union and China. And Kennedy walked out of that. midway through the briefing, and he turned to Dean Rusk and said, and we call ourselves the human. race. He let Minister gave it. And one of the people there said.

it was Roswell. Patrick says he. gave it as if he was talking to. kindergartners. And Kennedy was so disgusted. with it. And the thinking behind. the idea that we were going to. have a preemptive surprise. nuclear strike unprovoked against. the Soviet Union. But there are military people who. were thinking that way as there. are today. I mean, the the Bulletin. atomic scientists had an article. on August 20th. There were two interesting article.

Sanger had one in The New York Times. that day saying that the United. States is preparing to fight. a three front nuclear war. against Russia, China. and North Korea and win that. And the same day the Bully Atomic. Scientists came out with an article. saying that there are still planners. in the Pentagon who believe. that we can win a. nuclear war and should plan. for that. What would that mean to win a. nuclear war? It's insanity. It doesn't mean anything. Well, that's why you should read. this book is very important because.

there is. This anti Jacobson's. There's no partial there was no. partial victory in this book. It's impossible. Once again, it's a chain reaction. once this thing starts. There are so many different aspects. to it. It's a bureaucracy beyond. belief. And the names of all the. names of all the systems we have. protecting ourselves. One thing it's as clockwork. It's so rare. If if this if it hang. we don't have a failsafe is what. I'm trying to say. We really don't.

Know. What does it look like once. the chain reaction begins? She describes it beautifully. Minute by minute. She talks about what's going to. happen to you, me, and forget. about Los Angeles, forget about New. York. Forget those. They're gone. Pentagon has been trying a war game, limited nuclear war for decades, and it never ends up a limited. nuclear war. I mean, at what point does it stop? It always keeps going until. everything's gone and. Then it doesn't take a winner is.

something we discovered in what. year? And Sagan came up with. the idea in the early 80s, early in winter. But if anything. And then he got attacked by the Wall. Street Journal and others for bad. science, which is bullshit. And but the latest. scientific findings are that. Sagan and company actually. downplayed the effects of nuclear. What is nuclear winter? Nuclear winter, for example. Now, the latest studies show. that a limited nuclear war between.

India and Pakistan. Yes. In which 100. Hiroshima sized nuclear weapons. would be used Would. 5 million tons of smoke, certain debris into the. atmosphere. It would circle the stratosphere. within two weeks, blocked the sun's. rays from getting to the earth. Temperatures would plummet to. freezing on the earth. Much of the agriculture would be. destroyed. And a limited nuclear war of 100. Hiroshima sized weapons could.

kill up to 2 billion people. 2 billion. If there was a we don't have. 100. We got 12,000. And they're not Hiroshima sized. Many of them are 7. to 70 times the size of the. Hiroshima bomb. And so if there was a large scale. use, it would the cities would. would burn and would send. off so much. So that would block. the sun's rays for years. and we might not survive as a. species. The likelihood is that all large. life forms would probably.

die off. Some people might be able to get. under the ground. You know, we'd have a mineshaft. That would make a change. Now, is the idea in failsafe. Kubrick didn't know anything about. nuclear winter when he made the. movie, but he had the underground. system being described by. the Dr. Strangelove rumor. Yes. By the way, you should. I did a clip. I showed Strangelove to Putin. Dr.. Dr. Strangelove. I showed it to. I wanted them to sit through that. climax, too. Had he seen it before? He No, he never heard of it, I don't.

think. And he sat through it with. me. And it's on film. His reaction is. Yes. This is very realistic. Yeah, it could happen. But now our weapons are even. much bigger. Much bigger, much worse. Yeah, but he was, he said. Yeah. This is real. Though. Back in the 60s were. actually building bigger nuclear. weapons than we are today. The Russians tested their 50 million. megaton weapon, the SA. bomber. And it could have been 100 megatons. if they had wanted to underground.

I'm not sure it was an underground. test. So what do you think? Putin's view of nuclear war? He he knows he's a very. realistic man. This is serious. When he he talked. he doesn't he doesn't bullshit. He talks very straightforwardly. And I think that's why we don't. understand that our language is a. little more rhetorical than his. Yes, he's he's pretty consistent. He said this is a red line in. Ukraine and he always has has. maintained. And then he went to war. for it.

The red line being NATO up against. the. Russian minority in in. Ukraine. Then they moved into Donbass, Donbass and Lugansk. where the issues at that time. Now. That was that was what was at stake. Yes. They promised the Ukrainians. promised to Minsk one, and still. they promised to respect the. autonomy of those people. They never did. They were started killing them. Then there was the terrorism. bill. Ukraine changed in.

14 after Maidan. It became truly a. dangerous country because they. had a lot of zealots in. the government that they weren't. they weren't Nazis, but. they were a lot of people like that. who were working with the Ukrainians. and Daesh and terrifying the. Russians. But I mean, I know you saw. my movie. We visited Ukraine. in winter. It's about that Maidan and. how these people got into power.

That was a violation. of the neutrality of Ukraine, which. had existed since the end of the. Cold War. It's a sad story because. we wanted it. It was our trade. We didn't. We, Obama said. We want neutrality. We want this, and now we want to. have good relations. And meanwhile, he betrayed it. He betrayed it with the. Maidan, broken the violence. I know if you know all the details. Yes, there was a lot of killing of. the protesters. And the evidence is really pointing.

heavily to the neo fascist. Sarah who came in and shot these. people from these rooftops. They were controlled by the. the Ukrainian. side. So it's a very sad. story. Let me take it back just. A little, of course. Because in 2008, that's when the United. States called for Ukraine. and Georgia to enter NATO. Right. And that was. clearly crossing Russia's red.

line. In fact, then. US ambassador to Russia was William. Burns, now the head of the CIA, Burns writes a secret memo back to. the White House titled Nyet. means Nyet. Don't cross Russia's red lines. about Ukraine and NATO. And that's where things begin. to change. Putin was furious. and he actually came went to the. NATO meeting and was had. been reaching out to the US. since 911. I mean, he was the first foreign.

leader to actually. contact the White House. and to offer assistance and it. did help us. And in Afghanistan. originally. And then what do we do in 2002? We abandon the ABM Treaty. He was that was that was a horrible. blow to them. Then we invade Iraq, which they were totally opposed to. And so then relations begin to. deteriorate. I was saying before about. Krauthammer in 2002, he revisits the idea of the unipolar.

moment. So that was wrong in 1990. It's not the unipolar moment. It's the unipolar era. And the US is going to dominate the. world for the foreseeable future. Could be 100 years, not 30. or 40 years. And that's when they all the neocons. started coming out of the fray. They started appearing everywhere. and saying the importance of. American empire, that we're. going to we're going to change the. chessboard. When Wesley Clark went to the. Pentagon, they told.

them we had plans to to have. regime change in seven different. countries. Yes. And what was on that list? Iraq, Iran, Syria, Libya, Libya. Yeah. I mean, you go through Iran. Yeah. And so that was the game plan. What's happening now is Syria was. part of a game plan. Iran was the last that there was a. big threat. Iran biggest prize of all was very. clear. Sudan, Somalia. And they had a lot of different. countries we were going to overturn. And they had this vision that we.

could do it. On January 5th, 2003, the New York Times Sunday magazine. section, big headline, American. Empire. Get used to it. I mean, they weren't even hiding it. They were proud about it at that. point until things started to go. haywire. And Afghanistan and. Iraq and then finally. Libya. That also. includes Serbia. Go back to 99. Well, yeah, the Russians were. furious about what happened in. Serbia. Can I ask not to regress?

But what was the point of. the intervention in Serbia? The post Yugoslav interventions. We announced, it is where. we were catching the butchers, the people who were dictators. in Serbia. Yeah. And that was. our excuse. But essentially it was a much more. important destabilization. of. We bombed a city. in Europe. Yes, Belgrade for 99 days. I mean, think about it.

We came into. the war and called it. It's a complicated war. There were two peace treaties. Don't have time here to go into it. But essentially, we wanted to. Balkanize. Love you. Which we did. Yes, the same way. We're going to. Balkanize Syria now. Yes. This is American policy. Divide, conquer, divide, conquer. Volcanoes. Cut it up into. Kosovo is a violation of the. deepest level of everything we're. talking about. We talk about the. rules based order. Yes, they had a referendum.

that was. a little bit. shady. And we we said they're. free. You know, they're there. They're no longer part of Serbia. That kind of Kosovo is a gangster. state with big aim. It's a whole I was there. I don't know. I can't tell you. It's grim what happened to. us. What's interesting, though, is as. that was happening and NATO's. bombing and Wes Clark was becoming. famous and all that, I don't. think I heard a single debate in. the United States over why we were. doing this. Why did we.

Not march now? But in Russia, you would have heard. very, very different. Something like 96% of the Russians. thought that what was going on there. was a war crime. Yes, the Russians were a totally. opposite view and the US was. establishing the rules based. international order, which meant. instead of going through the United. Nations, which they couldn't have. gotten it through, they did it. on their own militarily. Yes. And don't forget, in Iraq, when we. went in there, Germany, France. and Russia did not join it. They did not agree with that.

The Schroeder and all. Of Europe. Chirac. That's important because what's. happened now is the opposite amounts. in Germany are are on the. UK. Leading the charge. So there's been. a change in values. And you say we're I don't know why, but I think there's some kind of. there's NATO is not. the one, but it's sort of an elite. ism that has come into being with. in Europe an elitist with the. leaders coming from a university. where they're they're trained to be. leaders, but they all think.

alike. That's what surprises me. I know, frankly, Faraj, whatever he says, he's. different. At least he says. something is different. Yes. Le Pen says something different. Yes. So that's why these people are. appealing to people, because they're. saying there has to be some peace. there. This is madness. And it's why they're the most. attacked. Yeah, that's part of it, too. The media is in on it and. they're very, very critical of. people who differ. in this country. I've noticed the censorship has gone. far. Were you you suffered from it?

Yeah, well, certainly I suffered. from it. I mean, it's. you're you're insulated because you. have tenure. But how many. Oscars have you won? I won three. You've won three a. Long time. Ago right. now. But essentially, I got cut off. because I did the Putin interviews. You didn't help me in Hollywood. But she'd been cut off before that. And I think didn't you. Know, my my ability to make. films was. choked a little. You know, there is after 2000, things changed in the United States.

because we became. the victim. We were suddenly the patriotism. of their soldiers. We started the Pearl Harbor. black ship, Black Hawk Down. All the films were we're. different mentality than what I. was presenting, which was a reality. I thought to the American. public that this military has. to be. Why are we doing these military. expeditions overseas as in. like in Vietnam?

This is what was my main point. I kept going at it and going at it. And I guess all of a sudden it. became okay. But the people never voted. There was no candidate. There was no election. That said, I'm against any empire. I want to bring it back. Like back in William Brennan's. William Jennings Bryan back in 1898. I don't want empire. We never got the choice. We swallowed it. Let me give a different timeline on. Oliver's history there. Yes, I see it from.

a mirror. Oliver was walking. on water in Hollywood with Platoon, Wall Street. Born on the 4th of July. Yeah. And then he met JFK, and then everything changed, and. they started attacking JFK. 7 or 8 months before. the film was produced. I remember based on a stolen first. draft of the script at. the New York Times, Los Angeles. Times. And it was all that. They were all going after him and.

conspiracy theorists. And, you know, and it's a very. controversial movie, which takes. a lot of risks. And Oliver had said admitted at the. time he didn't have all the answers, but he wanted to get the questions. out there and make people think. about some of these issues. But at that point, he went from. being Hollywood's golden boy. to being the conspiracy monger. I remember it very well in the late. night comics who are always tools. of the existing order jumped. in. But why do you think that. film and that topic,

I mean. Because Americans had already. disagreed with the Warren. Commission. And even before Oliver's movie came. out, the overwhelming majority of. Americans thought they didn't think. that Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone. They didn't, from the very. beginning, find that credible at. all. In fact, for the seven members. of the Warren Commission. didn't think that. I thought that there was likely a. second second guard. Nor Robert Kennedy nor Lyndon. Johnson. Connally. Jackie Kennedy. So many people, Hale Boggs,

Fidel Castro, Charles de Gaulle. Various British leaders. Harold Macmillan. Did you ever talk to Castro? You knew Castro? Yeah, sure. What did he say about it? It's he was so. sad because he really was like. Kennedy and he was hoping for a. deal. They were in back door. negotiations. Kennedy understood the Cuban. revolution, and he said eloquent. about it. He understood why the people were. that Cuba had been the most corrupt. island in the American empire and.

the Caribbean, which since. the platinum in 2001. and then 1901. Yeah, but a lot. Of this is economic. Let's not lose sight of that. You see, what they got after World. War Two was an economic. empire, which is it was working. People were investing in the war. economy and they were prosperous. Yes. But you saw the budgets grew and. grew and grew. Here we are now with. $1 trillion defense. budget. Right. Which is insane because we have how. many bases abroad? 800 bases. That was never the intention of.

Eisenhower or any of those people to. have to control the world, to. dominate every place in the world. And this is Asia and. Europe. And. South America. This is a gigantic empire. Do you realize how busy they are. every day trying to run this thing? Everything is coming at you. Personally, I believe this is an. invasion coming up. It's either going to be Iran or. I hope not. Israel is a proxy army. for us. Certainly Trump supports them and. you know that Trump supports.

and Trump is very zealous about. Israel. Scary. But also, don't overlook Venezuela, which is still the one of the. richest countries in the world with. all its oil. Some people believe that there's an. easy, easy target. for Trump to knock off. I pray not, but because it's going. to be a battle. But this doesn't end, is what I'm. saying. They plot every day. They imagine the world. map. They go to China. The China challenge. Right.

Sending ships constantly. It's stating our supremacy. right in the war in the seas. Freedom of navigation. My. And China. It's. It's crazy. I mean, I understand economically. Take it on. Be competitive with. China. Fine. But we can be economically. friendly. In other words, we can be. competitors. I don't see why we can't be in. business together. As with Russia, Russia is a. capitalist country.

It's no longer a communist country. Yes. So as much as we hate. communism, it doesn't. make sense to to antagonize. Russia. They can be our partners in climate. change in so many ways. Their nuclear energy industry is one. of the best in the world, as is. China. They can teach us. We can build smart. in quantity. If we wanted to, we could really. solve climate change. We don't have to sit here victims. of it. But this is all this is Kennedy. thinking. This is what we need.

We need leadership. We need a de Gaulle, somebody who. has a vision of the world. Well, I Trump to some degree. has a vision. Oliver stressing the economic roots. of all this. I do. I wanted to go back because in 1948, George Kennan lays it out in. a secret memo. George Kennan, who gave the. architect of the Cold War, writes a memo that says we have. 6.3%. of the world's population, yet. we control 50%. of the world's wealth.

He said the challenge before. us today is to maintain this. position of disparity. and we're not going to do it with. idealistic slogans. We're going to deal with pure power. concepts. He later regretted that he later. regretted the Mr. X article. And he becomes really very, very worried about the threat of. nuclear war in his later life. And he lived to over 100 years old. But in. 97, he condemned. he condemned. Condemn the NATO's expansion.

In 99, Clinton expanded. NATO Yeah, and. Kennan was horrified, horrified. Squarely meeting here at sea. And the other day and I looked. around the room and every other. person had a kind of. ruddy vitality, sort of pink cheeks, alertness, bright eyes, full mental acuity, and. a cheerfulness you could almost. smell. And I asked, Why does everyone. look so good?

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it's more than just economics that. are drugs. Economics is geopolitics. is. Economic. Military, ideological domination. I don't think it's an either or. Some people make that mistake if. said this or it's that. I mean, there are a lot of different. people involved in the planning of. this, and they're motivated by. different things. I say that was the original reason. we were antagonistic. to Russia. Yes, it wasn't military. It was economic because. we've had strikes in this country. and we were trying to control labor. and the large corporations.

that were in a dead. deathly struggle with with labor. And up until the end of World War. Two was Taft-Hartley. That was a big issue. There were so many strikes during. the war. People don't even take that into. account. There were there was. huge strikes in Detroit, cars, steel. And after the war, it was. continuing. And until Taft-Hartley. came along, which allowed them to. close down any strike that was. dangerous to the national security. I think.

That in the 30s that's what. motivated Roosevelt and. to. The left. So the Cold War comes out. of economics, too. It's very much so. The labor movement was huge in the. United States in the 30s, the. formation of the CIO, the organizing. of Steel Auto. I mean all of the big industries. were organizing. And who were the leaders of the. organizing? The Communists. You know, there was a reason why. they had to shut down the Communist. Party during the, quote unquote, McCarthy period. And McCarthy, a late comer to. McCarthyism.

But right. It was starts in 47. And Truman, according to Clark. Clifford is. Domestic policy. adviser. Truman said. Truman knew that this was baloney, all this stuff about communist. infiltration. But the Republicans started to. attack in 1946. The chair of the Republican Party in. 46 says the choice between. Republicanism and communism. And so we beginning this. anti-communist hysteria. very, very early after the war.

And then Truman takes the bait. and has the loyalty. hearings and which. leads gradually into McCarthyism. How first in 47. First, they say that the real threat. is the atomic. scientists. But they quickly decide that the. one they're going to investigate. first is Hollywood. Right. So then they have that, the Hollywood ten and then all those. other hearings that were taking. place because they were very. concerned even then about people. who might influence American.

thinking. And Hollywood was a hotbed of. leftist. An irony, though, that Oliver. Stone, after winning three Oscars, would be excommunicated. from Hollywood by the same people. for it. I did. And I did get excommunicated. Yet these. guys are. Doing the you would be even. vigorously criticized is. a little strange. No, it's very hard for me. I mean, a military type theme, these kind of things I'm talking. about with you. I couldn't do this. as a movie. No, I could do the Putin. interviews because that was a.

documentary. Yes. And I could. do nuclear energy because I cared. about that. That was a documentary, Pro. Nuclear energy. So I'm interested. in ideas. But in terms of drama, I have to curb it. I can't go to where my imagination. wants to go. Why? Well, they say to you, they never. tell you the truth. They tell you to. controversial to. to political, to this, to. that. You know, I don't think I've.

lost my touch, but. I have to live with it. It's okay. I live with it. I'm writing a book. Another book. I wrote a book or a memoir. A first part of my life. I'm going to write another one from. 40 on the age of 42, where I am now. So. Are there any filmmakers. left in Hollywood who can take on. the biggest questions, like the. power of the. Thing they don't take on? Oppenheimer is an interesting movie. I liked it as a movie. I watched it. There are some flaws in it. You know, the big flaw being that.

Truman is that. is honestly pictured knocking. Oppenheimer. Remember that there's a. great scene in the movie, but. what's ignored in the film is, for. example, General Groves. Leslie Groves is one of the most. anti-communist generals. we ever had, a total cold warrior. from beginning to end. He said, quote, The quotes. in the in the book. from the beginning, the Manhattan. Project was created. to destroy to address.

the Russian empire. You know the line? Yes, of course. Nothing more. It was it was not about Japan. It was about Russia. It says from this piece, few weeks. after the time I was appointed. to head the Manhattan Project, I. treated as if the Soviets. were the enemy and. the project was directed in that. way. And so the bombing in Japan was. really aimed as a message to the. Soviets. Well, yeah, well, the Russians were. in the war at that time. We knew the Japan was finished, but. we had to keep going in. those crucial few days to establish.

the weapon. And Leslie Groves, I. mean, Matt Damon played a. very good performance. But I don't know. I felt well, it's not Leslie Groves. It's not that. That's the most warm and fuzzy. Leslie Groves you're ever going to. see. And it doesn't go into the issue of. whether why are we. Oppenheimer I don't know. I'm sure Oppenheimer got an inkling. of it later. No, Yeah, at the time, yeah. But he said that when he testified, he said we didn't know beans about.

the military situation. We didn't know that Japan could have. been made to surrender without using. the bomb, you know? So Oppenheimer later effectively. apologized for supporting. the use of the bomb. And then he got into trouble. And that's when he. And then he realized. He was certainly did. Lie. They opposed me. The hydrogen bomb. Once you crossed the Rubicon, you. have to cross. So she crossed the Rubicon? Yes, I have crossed it. But when you came back from. interviewing Putin for your. documentary, it was released.

What was the reaction like? Quiet in L.A. And people that talk. to me publicly, they it's. always behind closed doors, Right? Did you hesitate before doing it? Not really, because it was. fascinating new material my producer. set up. Now, I was doing Snowden in 2013, which was a very. brave movie because we were dealing. with a man who was exiled, who I. thought was a hero and was treated. I agree as if he was a traitor. So I wanted to make that move. In making that movie, I had to go to.

Moscow to finish it. And I met Putin there. and we talked about Snowden first. because that was where we met. And what he said about Snowden is, he says in the movie is it's. very true. He didn't like what Snowden did. No, but. it and he would have punished him. the same probably the same way, but. he understood the mechanics of it, meanwhile. We got to know each other. And my producer. said, Let's do it.

Let's do an interview with him. because he's a really crucial figure. right now. Yeah, we didn't know what was. coming. You know, we didn't know. about the, the. the coup. And at that point, so we set up these interviews. and we were talking. The coup just happened at that. point. So he was upset. and I, as an American, didn't really know the situation. So I was treating it like, you know, Ukraine, okay, It's. what's the big deal? I mean, it's another one of the. countries like.

Sure, like Georgia. I thought that. It's the Warsaw Pact. Like, Yeah, yeah. And he looked at, you know, it's not. a big deal for us, Mr. Star. And he explained in the movie what. I think he says and on tape. And he I understand Ukraine better. and better, but at first I didn't. I talked to Ukrainians. It's it. was evident. I mean, it was coming. here. This this thing is very. dangerous. It was a it was a. firecracker from 2014 on.

because it was a violation of at. the heart of the Soviet empire, of. the Russian empire. That underbelly is where the. invasions happened. So it seems like we're relying. now on Putin's. restraint. It's not just him, it's Russia. If he goes if he's out. and if Biden gets his wish and that. all these nutcases want to remove. him, take him out, fine, kill him. But it's not going to solve it. Russia is Russia. It's going to stay loyal to what. it's believes in.

There is a what They don't. have a Democratic vote, but they. have a consensus. If Putin was not doing what the. public, the people wanted, he'd be. out. That's the way it works. It takes maybe a couple of years. more. What? But it does it. That's the way Russia works. See, if there's are. didn't work out they get rid of him, you know, and they shot him too. Remember, that's one of the reasons. the Japanese were terrified. of the Russians and why they. surrendered, because they didn't. want the Russians to invade the.

homeland. That was a big. fear. But though the Russian people. are very strong, but they're. passive. So they they talk in certain way. You know, we believe the Moscow. crowd, but the Moscow crowd doesn't. talk for Russia. It's a bigger consensus. But you're making an important. point, though, which we are. in many ways too dependent on. Putin's restraint at this point. Absolutely. Because we have today he. just made a statement that the US. keeps crossing all of Russia's.

red lines. And if they keep doing this, this is. going to explode. I mean, Biden for a long time. refused to give permission to. Ukraine to use the attack and. missiles. And he said that it was. be too provocative and. could possibly lead to a much. broader war between the United. States and Russia. And he refused to do it, but. that he did with every other weapons. system. He finally caved in. And so Ukraine has struck Russia. several times now with these. attack missiles inside of Russia,

the long range Army missiles. And then they've got the British. storm trooper, storm shadow missiles. You got the French missiles, the. scout missiles. The German ones haven't been used. yet. And in response. to that, Russia lower. changed its nuclear doctrine. and said that they lowered. it and said that if. Russia is attacked by. a country with the support of a. nuclear power, then they're going. to consider that an attack by both.

countries, meaning the United. States and Ukraine and. both countries become legitimate. targets for all of Russia's. weapons, meaning nuclear weapons. And so far, then how then. how did Russia respond with. the aggression, Nick, missile, this. brand new hypersonic. medium range missile. And it was devastating because. it goes at ten times the speed. of sound and it's a hypersonic. missile and they can't be shot down. And they've used it once so far.

But there are warnings that they. could take out Kiev. now, or at least the leadership. there. They could hit the base in. Poland wherever. they want. So just for some context, what. is the difference. between the bomb, the atomic. bomb that was dropped on Hiroshima. and the current nuclear arsenal? How much more advanced are nuclear. weapons now? They are so much more advanced. In fact, Obama,

who won the Nobel Peace Prize for. his speech in Prague. For existing. In 2009 calling for. nuclear abolition. He's the one who put into. process the policy. of modernizing America's nuclear. arsenal. It was a trade off with the Senator. Kyl from Arizona in order to. get them to support the New Start. treaty. And so what is modernizing the. delivery systems and the weapons. mean making them more efficient. and more lethal. And then Trump doubled down.

on that in his Nuclear Posture. Review in 2018. And so Obama said we're going. to spend $1 trillion over. 30 years to modernize. Now it's closer to 2 trillion. and we're doing it. But not only is. the United States modernizing. all nine nuclear powers. are modernizing their arsenals. And for the first time, you know, we. at the peak of the Cold War in 1986, we had about 70,000. nuclear weapons in the world.

We got it down to now 12,000. But for the first time, we're. increasing the arsenals. You know, we've been trying to get. rid of these hellish weapons. since they were first started. And initially, even Eisenhower supported. giving them to the UN and letting. the UN destroy them. And Eisenhower also. was the only president. who's openly critical of the US. dropping the atomic bombs in 1945. You know, and he criticized at the.

top what he said. He said when Stimson briefed. him at Potsdam that the United. States was about to use the atomic. bomb. Eisenhower wrote on a couple. occasions that I got more and more. depressed just listening to them. But I didn't volunteer anything. because my war in Europe was over. Then he asked me what I thought and. I told him I was against it for two. reasons. Number one, the Japanese were. already defeated and tried to. surrender and we didn't need to use. it. And number two, I hated to see. our country be the first to use such.

a weapon. The US at age five, star admirals. and generals in 1945. Seven of the eight are officially. on the record saying the atomic. bombs were the militarily. unnecessary, morally reprehensible. or both. And the other the eighth was. Marshall, who said that the Soviet. invasion alone would likely. leverage the Japanese. into surrender by itself. So they all knew that the atomic. bombs were necessary. Truman knew it as well as anybody.

When he went to have lunch with. Stalin. Potsdam on July 17th, he goes back and writes in his. journal said Russia. Stalin will be in the Jap war by. August 15th. Finny Japs when that occurs, he writes home to his wife Bess the. next day, said, The Russians are. coming in. We'll end the war a year. sooner now. Think of all the kids who won't be. killed. He knew it. He refers to the. intercepted telegram on July 18th. as the telegram from the Jap. emperor asking for peace.

They knew that the Japanese were. Defeated if there had been an. invasion. Was the estimate of. casualties? The original one from. Marshall. The original one. They were talking. only like 20,000. And then the highest one for the. original. Then all the gains ever. that we could find was 46,000. Americans would be lost. But in his memoir, Truman says, I. was told by Marshall that we could. lose a half million American boys. in an invasion as a myth. And that's but that's just what. they're doing. And then Bush brought it up to. H.W. Bush said of millions, We can. lose millions.

That Taft calculated. How many college women these. presidents write. The retroactive justification. So do you think. that, you know, you said the. world's nuclear arsenal has. dramatically declined. That's going to be increasing now. But do you think in that decline. is, of course, that the end of the. Soviet empire, 91? Do you think that all of those. warheads were accounted for? We certain that they were destroyed. I don't have any evidence that they. weren't. Okay. So.

but I mean, I've heard speculation. I have. About that. Yes. But I don't know that there are. any out there. Breaking news Trump intends to. nominate Kash Patel to serve as the. FBI director. The level of corruption. in Washington, DC was not. wholly new to me, but I also didn't. expect it at that level. Is it your expectation, though, that. Kash Patel will pursue. investigations against your. political opponents? If they were crooked, if they did. something wrong. If they. Have broken the law. Comey, the former deputy attorney.

general of the Department of. Justice, literally hijacked the. System of. Justice. And at the. time, of course, we didn't know. this, but he was running Russia. They went after me and they went. after me and I did nothing wrong. Here's the thing that I think people. need to understand. The information. operation is not. Mockingbird. It's everybody.

How much do you think Putin worries. about a nuclear war? A lot of. I can't tell you. I mean, he's a cool customer, as you know. He's seen a lot. He's been there for 23 years. I mean, he's knows every world. leader. He's seen six American presidents. come and go. I would say he he qualifies as. a statesman and a wise man. Yes. And we don't pay any attention. to it. We should we should respect. him. He has that experience. that he understands the American.

system, how it sends new leaders. in, and they change the policies all. the time. So he but he. thinks there is a deep state and. that deep state in the United. States. And that and that's what he has to. deal with. And that deep state is very. dangerous because and when. we started our conversations over. three years, it was. our partners, the Americans. And I got irritated. I said, Why do you keep saying our. partners, the Americans, they don't. express these sentiments at all. towards you. You're considered a murderer by. Mr. Biden,

and they think you kill people. You know that you're some kind of. character out of a James Bond. spy movie. They keep talking about KGB, ignoring the fact that George W. Bush, George H.W. Bush was the head of the CIA. Thank you, everybody. I know in Russia, everybody I talked. to there says they wanted. they wish we could have friendlier. relations. Yeah, the United States and Russia, they all feel that way. You know who fears nuclear weapons? Nuclear bombs?

Trump, Trump said recently. Our aready says we have never. been closer to World War three. than we are today. Under Joe Biden, a global. conflict between nuclear armed. powers would mean death and. destruction on a scale. unmatched in human history. That's what Donald Trump said. recently. You know, so he thinks that giving. the Ukrainians permission to. use the attack arms the way. we are is crazy. I haven't heard an American.

president say anything like that. since Kennedy. Sure. As you said, your time at Russia, you said it is a Christian culture. What does that mean? There are there are strong Christian. culture. Very much this concept. of a of. late. It was an interesting thing is. they go to church. They don't sit at. all during the service. They stand the whole time. It's that serious to me. Yes. If you're ever going to Sunday. school, we're more. Protestant. We're. we know we're a divided.

culture and there are so many sex. There's the Jewish sect, there's. Arabs, there's this. And then we're all into different. things. You know, some people are. atheists, some people are, I. don't know, agnostics this that. they feel the Russians feel that. we have lost touch with. Christianity and that we're moving. towards a more of a satanic. culture. And I can understand why. because we have embraced the bomb. We've embraced regime change, corruption in all these countries. We we believe in the dollar.

change, controlling the world. And they don't see hope. in our way of life. They see people who are exhausting. themselves competitively. and dropping dead. And, you know, our are hell as. means told you in your interview, yes, we spend more on. health than anybody and we die. sooner. Our expectation that life expectancy. is very low and our quality of life. is not up to the other countries. You know, Europe is better. So there is a lot of big question.

about America. We say we're you know, we see. ourselves as a great country. And I think in many ways we are. And I and I'd like to see it, but I think our greatness is tied to. some humility in the sense of. what we were fighting for. Abraham Lincoln, in holding the. country together, made some of the. greatest speeches and a purpose. of life. But he was a very strong. Christian. I remember that. Yes, very strong sense of God. And the. You know, The Grapes of Wrath are.

marching on soon. So you think that Russia. sees this as a conflict. between a Christian culture. and a secular culture? Ours being the. Second? I think some people do. Yeah. Putin goes to church? Yes, he is. But he doesn't sell me. He's not an evangelist or anything. like that. Yes. Yeah, no, it's interesting. But you're. asked there fundamentally. have to be respected. You people who really study Russian.

culture love it. I've saw Americans. over there. They love it. They they read the literature. They understand the culture. They speak Russian. It's it you don't have a Russian. background. You told me your story. Well, I've. got a lot of friends who are Russian. historians and Russian experts. and my friends in Russia, when. we talk about religion, they say. after the collapse of the Soviet. Union, everybody got baptized, but nobody actually goes to church. So, I mean, they're religious in a.

in a different sense, and it's part. of their national identity and. heritage. But I'm not sure that they're. believers in that way. And as you're saying, unlike the. United States, where you've got. Catholics that all kinds of. Protestants and Jews and Muslims. and Hindus, I mean, there's. got much more of an identity that. revolves around their religious. heritage. The whole concept of what Rome. I mean, Rome moved east, you know, new the new Rome. And that they were the inheritors. of our empire.

And that's where they fought the. Turks and all that. There was. Yes. All these conflicts. But it's interesting what's going on. with Ukraine, because they changed. the rules in the church. They formed a new church. They're no longer Orthodox Russian. Yes. Well, they don't have religious. freedom there. And they're accusing the Russians of. distorting their religion. Yeah, but just very. strange. I it's so. Ukraine is also a. this is it's a religious battle, too.

that they change everything Russian. Do you know that Zelensky didn't. even speak Ukrainian. He learned it right quick. He learned it quickly. Yes. Is Yeah. So they really banned. the language. They really went. against Russia. They tried to root it out. They hated Russia. Some people hated. Russians. And they they turned it. into a campaign like. Hitler, a Hitler campaign of. genocide against Russia. Against Russia. Yeah. The war in Donbass started in. 20 1415.

Yes. And maybe 16, but it got worse and worse. And it was on in 22 when the. thing blew up. They were on the verge of invading. Donbass and 100,000 troops on. the border. The Ukrainian troops well trained. by the Americans. With all our work there, our CIA. or our advisors, we had really trained that Russian, that Ukrainian army, and that was a deliberate, deliberate manipulation. And we did not abide. by the treaty.

The treaty was intended for. a peace of make an interim. peace. But as as Merkel said, the Ukrainians saw it as. a way to use the time. to build their time. Holland also said. That to reconquer Donbass, that's what they wanted to do and. they would have killed a lot more. people. What how do you suppose. the incoming Trump administration. can fix this? How Well you he. he announces everything. So the Biden is. the counter moving him on every.

every regard is very dangerous. You can't say what you're going to. do in a new administration, especially this one. Right. I it's what. do you do? I mean, how do you. I don't know. But this administration, much like the Biden administration, we talked about Biden earlier and. all, was talking surprised. by how hawkish Biden. is. Biden's always been. a cold warrior and. very much of a hawk. But he came to office with 18.

top advisors from the Center. for New American Security. Now, these are the people like. Sullivan who are the. China Hawks. Many of them were the people behind. the Asia pivot under Hillary. Clinton and Obama. But and but Ukraine got in the way. because there was China who. they wanted to go after. But you and even Rand. has a song. about a report saying. titled Avoiding a Long War.

in Ukraine because they wanted to. get After China. Now, the Trump people. are also much more hawkish. toward China and Iran. than they are toward Ukraine. So I think that economically, my my fear is that. they'll successfully end Ukraine. and then turn their fire elsewhere. Except that that Trump did invite. Xi Jinping to come to the inaugural. inauguration and I think. is showing some signs of. moderate.

Economic with with Trump. That's what I think well. And transactional he. so it's possible to deal that way. That's the only hope we have to make. a deal right now. Make it make a deal with Iran. What would that look like? Well, we're going to have to inherit. Ukraine. We're just going to have to. pay it. Keep paying and pay. Pay. We got to keep it up. And somehow he'll make some kind. of phony state, you know, like create like. allow our Vietnam, you know, kind of a half state and.

Well, to keep it. Alive. Spent a lot of taxpayer. money. And, you know, it's a front. A front for what? For NATO in a. way. But you know they they. they they. Ukraine is to say NATO's free. It does. And so does Georgia. Yeah. Otherwise it's going to be. The Russians won't accept that. Yes we have. They have to understand why is NATO. even alive. I mean it was a defensive alliance. I don't understand. We formed NATO.

because the Russians were going to. invade Europe. Is that. Correct? 19 for. Basically it. They never invaded Europe. They never could. They never had the intention to. And Mr.. As I said you earlier, Kamala Harris. said something so stupid. like the moment they win in Ukraine, they're going to march into Poland. is nuts. And that's what that the whole. foreign policy establishment is. saying that and I agree with Oliver. It's nuts. Do they believe it? They see Ukraine. They want to take on NATO. I mean, this makes no logical.

sense at all. And for Putin, Ukraine has a special. meaning and special history for. Russia. Yes. You know, and it doesn't want. Poland. Romania, not I mean, his name. No. He's not at all that way. He didn't do anything like that. He was in office for 23 years. What did he do? Very little in terms of. expansion. It was just just their. borders, their security. That's what it's about. Their security. Let me thrive. Let me build up my country.

economically. Let me do this. And that's what he did with Russia. Russia did very well up until. The this idea that they want to. recreate the Soviet empire. He said Anyone who doesn't. miss the Soviet Union has. no heart. Anyone who wants to recreate it. has no brain. That's what he did. Like, it's a good line. But, you know, they are hurting. their own economy again. by this massive expansion. of arms production. That's what brought them down in. the 80s, Really.

They're spending 25 to 40%. of their budget on arms, and. now they're doing that again. So even though in the long and short. run, they're thriving economically, unlike Europe, in the long. run, it's going to hurt them. So it's very much in their interest. to end this war. It's in everybody's interests. If you're pro-Ukrainian, what is the point of it? For example, after the attack, EMS. were given permission, everybody. gave permission. I was watching CNN and they. had Bolton and they had.

Stavridis and. Clark, and they all said, too little, too late. using the attack EMS there. That's great that we're doing it, but it's too little, too late. But these people are saying is. they're willing to risk nuclear war. over something that they know is not. going to make any difference for the. Ukrainians anyway. The Ukraine is losing. That's the reality. They can't keep up with Russia. They're outmanned. They're outgunned. They're out strategized. At this point. In the settlement, do you.

think it's as simple as telling. the Russians, that will end? No. Newton wants a little bit more than. that right now. He wants to keep what he earned. Yeah, he's going to keep. He's got four provinces that. they said are incorporated. into Russia. So Lewenstein has. Curzon and separates. here. And he's going to want at least as. much of them as his army controls.

He's going to want more. But their bargaining. position might be they might give up. the parts that they don't control. And four, no. arms. No foreign arms and soldiers. in Ukraine, no NATO. in Ukraine, and a lasting. peace. I don't think they want it. The West says, it's going to be. temporary and then they're going to. just start it up again when they're. ready. This has been a terrible war. for Russia as well as for Ukraine. And if you're is sympathetic to.

Ukraine, the last thing. you want is going to see this. continue because they're only losing. more. They're only in a weaker. position and their young. men are getting not so young men are. getting killed. They have incredible numbers. So if we stop it a year from. now, what's going to be different? Russia's going to have more of. Ukraine. There'll be more Ukrainians. dead, more economy destroyed. on both sides, more Russians. dead. This is that. horrible war. Well, that was. Everybody. In America was fine with that.

That's what they said. We can Russia we can could. Weaken Russia. And build up our armaments industry. Yes. The big five, the military. contractors are doing great. So there was a point in American. history when the Congress. considered banning war profiteering. Yes. When did that happen? 1934. 1934. Gerald Nye. It was a great. Time. The Nye committee hearings in. the Senate were an extraordinary. moment. And it was a reaction to.

World War One, because. while the you know what. Wilson said, we won a million. volunteers. Well, they got 73,000. because Americans had been watching. the World War One in Europe go. on for three years. They saw the trench warfare. They saw the poison gas. It was a horrible war. And so very few Americans wanted. to volunteer. So we had a draft instead. But afterwards, in the 1920s, going back to Hollywood, they had a. lot of fabulous movies.

about World War One that were. passionately anti war. movies like The Big Parade Wings, All Quiet on the Western Front. and the novels All on. Money Got. Americans writers were opposed. to the war. And so the American attitude. was very negative about World War. One. So in 1934, Gerald Nye proposes. these hearings and a new. legislation to eliminate. all profit from war.

Now, these bastards are. making enormous amounts of profit. So that's such an obvious idea that. your that your national industry. shouldn't get rich from war. Yeah, because it sets up an. incentive for those same industries. to lobby for what we do, what we do. Now, it's it's a self-evidently. good idea, it seems to me. What happened to it? Well, then they started to go after. Wilson because there was a. bipartisan effort on the committee. It had front page headlines. With Gerald Nye. As Gerald Nye was a senator.

from. Midwest. Yeah, Midwest, Midwest Republican. Yeah. Progressive or a lot of. progressive antiwar Republicans. during World War One and then. afterwards, the 20s and. 30s. They've been labeled. As one of the greats, but there were. a lot of them then and. they weren't strictly isolation. of William Borah was was one of the. leaders from Idaho. and. Henry Wallace was from Iowa. Right. Henry Wallace from Iowa. And so but when. they start to go after Truman,

the Democrats got very different. And then after Wilson, the Democrats. got very defensive and. they blew up the heroes. Even Roosevelt was supportive. of what they were calling for in. 1934. So what were they made public? Well, there are various variants. on this. One was to either. tax everything above. $10,000. Once war began, anything that people earned over. $10,000 would be taxed. at either 98% or 100%.

because the DuPonts and the. Morgans, a Mellons, made huge profits out. of World War one, astronomical. profits. And, you know, part of the reason. why we got involved in the war at. all, even the American people did. not want to vote, is because we. had lent Morgan Banks had. lent $2.5 billion. to the allies and 100. million to the. other side. And so it was clear which side we. were going to get involved in.

Well, Wilson said when he was. criticized because he ran in. 1916 as a peace candidate, that song was We Kept America Out. of the War. And then in 1917, they changed the slogan to It's the. War to End all wars. or the War to make the world safe. for Democracy. But Wilson entered it in large part. because he knew that if we didn't, then the US would have no hand. in the postwar settlement. And he said, we have to be in it so. that we can shape the postwar world.

And he gave us the League of. Nations, which could have been a. good idea under certain. circumstances. But his 14. points were very progressive. But the British and French. colonialists were not going to. accept it. And as Oliver said before, the. when the when the Soviet revolution. occurred, one of the first thing. they did is they broke in. and found all the diplomatic papers. which showed the secret treaties. between Russia, France. and Britain to divide up. the Middle East. You know, the problems we're talking.

about now traced back to then. to the the colonialists. who controlled the Middle East. And but this was going on all over. the world. They had this plan. The Germans wanted to get involved. in the war, in part because they. were latecomers to the empire in. Africa. They felt they'd been frozen out of. the empires that the British and. French and Dutch and Portuguese. or controlling. You know, Wilson wouldn't meet with. Ho Chi Minh from Vietnam. Yes. Famous story. Yeah. Yeah. There's an interesting.

play by Arthur Miller. His first play, All My Sons. You ever see it? No. Yeah. They made it very. It was a big hit before salesman. and it was a made into a movie. But it's about war profiteering, the fact that there are two sons. and the. So the older son. goes against the father when he. finds out that the father has been. making defective parts. and his brother is killed in. the in one of the planes, it crashes. because they're defective, which happens a lot.

more now than ever because we have. such a corrupt system. They have crashes of this new F 35. Yes. It's the biggest. boondoggle of all time. So it seems like this and. that play had a huge impact. It was Broadway 1945, six. You know, that was that's part of. the reality of war is that people. make money with it. And people knew that then at that. level. And it goes on and on and back, but. they weren't able. It's gotten worse, the profiteering,

Gerald. They should come out of the. woodwork now. Investigate another play that. knows that that also. is critical of war profiteering. Was waiting for Lefty by Clifford. Odets you know is. I've got various. episodes about condemning. the war profiteering. But they failed to get control of. the system in 1934 and no one. Came close. And it was overwhelmingly popular. at the time. And then the Democrats reacted. to this allegations against.

Wilson getting us into the war. So what's what's interesting, though, is that history now. regards anybody who had second. thoughts about the First World War. and anyone who didn't want to. get into another war in Europe. in the 30s as pro-Nazi. That is how their isolationists. are pro-Hitler. Do you think that's a fair. characterization? You know, the kids don't even know. about World War One, right? That's really ancient history. They hardly know about World are. They know about Vietnam?

Yeah. You know, Oliver fought the. Vietnam War, volunteered for. combat with Vietnam. Probably the only person to drop out. of Yale and volunteer for combat. in Vietnam in history. No, no, no. I think there are others. Maybe. I doubt it. But, you know, and I was an. anti-war activist during. that period, you know, but. I was in Hanoi in January. And it's interesting to me because I. had Robert McNamara come into my. class some years ago, and. McNamara said to my students.

that he accepts that 3.8. million Vietnamese died in the war. And I've always used that figure. because it's mind boggling. But while I was in Hanoi, the. Vietnamese leaders told me that now. the figure that they use is 5. million Vietnamese. So one of the one place. that all my students have been is. the Vietnam Memorial. in Washington, D.C., which you've. been there, and it's got two walls. with four, 492ft.

long, with the names of 58,280. Americans who died. And the message is, the tragedy of. Vietnam is that 58,280. Americans died, which is part of it. But if you included the 5 million. Vietnamese, the million. Cambodians and Laotians, the Americans, the Brits, the. Aussies, the Thais, everybody. who died, that wall. would be more than ten miles. long. And that would be a fitting tribute. to the Vietnam War. But it was sent a whole different.

message over. And I are invited to Okinawa in. February by the prefectural. government to support the anti base. movement in Okinawa. Another story we could get into. But the Okinawa. War Memorial has the names. of all the Okinawans, the. Japanese, the Americans, the Brits, the Aussies, everybody. who died there. And that would be an antiwar. memorial. But what the Vietnam Memorial, sadly, as powerful. as it is, is giving the wrong.

message. And America is always. giving the wrong message when it. comes to war. So is it strange for you? We touched at the outset and. as Oliver put it, the complete. inversion of American politics. But you were, you said, an antiwar. protester during Vietnam. Then you watched the party you voted. for become the war party. Like what? What happened? What caused that inversion? Well, the United. States foreign policy. has been bipartisan.

Yes. Throughout the Cold War, Really? And so both parties have been war. parties. Correct. But there was a strong. element within the Democratic Party. of progressive Democrats who. were much more anti-war, anti. defense spending and wanted. to use that money instead for. health care and education. and infrastructure and. the things that people needed. actually help people's lives. But it's become this group think. now. And even progressive.

Democrats who my friends sounds. so hawkish these days that I don't. recognize them. And the odd thing. So this reversal, Trump ran as the antiwar candidate. Yes, Trump rallies the pro-labor. candidates. You know, it makes. no sense to those of us who. grew up. I was never a. Democrat, but I usually. voted for the Democrats because. they were more progressive than the. Republicans. But at this point, you've got. two more parties, although there's a.

stronger faction in the Republican. Party at this moment who. are at least making sense about. the nuclear threat and about. Ukraine. But what I mean, what caused that? How did Liz Cheney wind up. campaigning with Kamala Harris? And it backfired. And it was stupid. And you know what really hurt. Kamala with the young people. was the unquestioning. support for Israel. I saw it with my students. They despised the Democrats. Gaza is the big issue for this.

generation. And they see it every day. Or they were seeing these for a. while on television. And the stories, you. know, every day they were digging. out babies from. under the rubble. It was horrible to watch. And it was worse if you travel than. other parts of the world. They were. even more graphic and explicit. than they were in the United States. This was my kids were watching. My students were watching. And they were so disgusted. with the Democrats for keep. on feeding this Israeli.

war. I mean, I would say that most of my. students were pretty horrified. by the October 7th attack that. Hamas made. And I know I felt very strongly to. me to that. I mean, you. know, I know that they've been badly. treated for a long time, the. Palestinians. But what happened on October 7th. is unacceptable, unforgivable. there. And I can understand why. there was a strong reaction. But the Israeli response, we're talking like, you know, four, nine, 11 people being ready.

to do something. They had already been brutalizing. the people in the West Bank. Gaza had been an open air prison. for four years already. And so the Israeli response. is so disproportionate, so horrific. for those of us who have different. history and experience with Israel. to see what the Israel Israel. has turned into now, without any or almost no. protest against this. brutalization of an entire. people, whether you consider a.

genocide or just a slaughter, it sickens one. And that's what I found. My students and the young people. did not vote. For the first time, Trump got a. majority of young voters. And it wasn't just young men, young women also. Well, people like me followed Robert. Kennedy, too. I followed Robert to. to Trump's camp. Yes. Not that I was. Robert was. I was the medium. Yes, He's I, I like what he's saying, and I hope.

he does it. I hope he achieves. whether Trump keeps his word with. him. We'll see. I think he will. Do you know others in Hollywood who. did the same? Yeah, I think there's a lot of. people who went with Kennedy. I think a lot to Trump. Yeah. Amazing. Did they talk. About it for Kennedy? So their vote canceled out? Yeah. But we're not going to. Be in California. He was. Kennedy was on the ballot, but he asked all. his people to vote in swing. states for Trump.

Anyway, I like people who are shaking. up the system, who are asking. questions, and the media is. very, very hard on these people. Very hard. Yes. It's like dissent is not allowed or. anymore. This is not the American way. Do you think he'll be able to do it? Trump will be able to bring reform. Why not? If he's willing to break with some. of the pharma companies and some of. it, and that's going to be hard.

because of money. But who knows how it works. Trump says he's a he's. an idiosyncratic candidate. Yes, he knows that he is. He's a he's a he's a. I don't think it's a one shot. I think there's they'll be I think. Vance will inherit and people like. that, they will inherit that. What do you think of Vance? Well, I think he'll do what Trump. wants. Yeah, I think that's important. There's got to be some change. If there's no change in this world.

where it's. America cannot continue on this. course. It cannot. And it knows it knows in. its gut. You know it. I do know it. Yeah, and you're right. Bigger. But change is good. Change is good. And, you know, I see with my. students, you know what they lack. now? They're very critical. They're very smart, analytical. There's no utopianism. You know, so many of the young. people think that the world that. they've inherited is what.

is all there is going to be. And they don't have any. The 60s generation, Oliver and I. were part of the 60s generation. When you were too young, but. not even born. But, you know, the. 60s generation had a vision. of making a better world. Yes. And that informed everything. we did. And we would jokingly refer to. what we're going to do after the. revolution. You know, but we did have a utopian. vision for how human beings. can live differently. Young people now are even.

much more ready to. critique the system and. its roots than we were back then. We were just learning about what. it meant to critique the system. But we had a hope and a belief. that the future could be that much. better. And I don't think. kids now see it. Maybe it could be different, but. they don't have this kind of. burning vision that we could make. a better world. So last. question that you both, I think can. answer.

in an informed way. I'll start with you, Peter. History and its uses. It does seem like we're in a moment. where people are at least open. to reassessing. their interpretations of what. happened, particularly the last 200. years, the 20th century. Do you think that 50. years from now, will there. our grandkids will be reading a. different version of history? 50 years from now? Well, if you start. with, however, my book, this is the earlier edition, The.

Untold History of the United States. know this one. The 2012 edition. had was about 750 pages. We put out an updated edition. in 2019, and now. it's over 900 pages. People really should read it and. watch it because it's got so much. history that people don't know. I was talking about the ignorance. about World War Two. Well, I did an anonymous survey with. college students, all of whom were. students in high school. And I asked them how many Americans.

died in World War Two. And the median answer I got was. 90,000. So they were only off by 300,000. So they were all in the ballpark. I asked them how many Soviets died. in World War Two. The median answer I got was 100,000. So they were only 27 million. off. Right. These are smart kids and they know. nothing. They couldn't understand. World War Two. They couldn't understand the Cold. War. They couldn't understand what's. going on in Ukraine unless. they know the history.

And so that's why Oliver and I did. the Untold History of the United. States to begin filling in those. by Tulsi Gabbard was. interviewed by the New York Times in. 2019. And they asked her, what is the big. article? What what podcast. you watch? She says, I don't want to. talk about podcasts, but I just. finished watching The Untold. History of the United States, and. everybody should watch it because it. fills in those blanks in the history. that nobody knows and we never learn. about in this country, you know? And so 50 years. from now, it depends really,

because it's going on in Japan. Oliver and I wrote an article. after one of our trips in Japan. called Partners in Historical. Falsification. The United States and Japan, you. know, it's going on Russia. It's going I mean, everywhere people. try to sanitize, whitewash. their history on the assumption. that if people know true. history, then they're going to rebel. and want something different and. something better. Because if anything, history teaches.

you that what is this now. is not what has to exist or. what should exist. That human beings can create a much. different world. And that's the lesson of it. So it's not just to learn the past. for the sake of the past. It's to learn the past so you can. shape a better future. Of course it's. Yeah. And that's what that's what. Oliver and I. Most reliable guidepost to the. future. So, I mean, do you think. we were talking about JFK and. when it came out 30 years ago, you. were roundly mocked. You were no. longer mocked. People see it as likely.

at the very least. Yeah, I think so. It seems that. Way. They much more accepted. Yeah. So do. You. That was the critics. The public loved that movie. I know. Yeah, it did well. Did very well. I remember. And it led to the Australian Records. Review. Board, a three hour, six minute. movie. And let's say Assassination Records. Review Board, which is why so many. documents, which is. Why I did this documentary. I want you to see. Read It Revisited. This is about the Assassination. Records Review Board.

They did good work. They didn't do everything, but they. did some very good work and. brought out new facts that we. that are in this. So why aren't why. are the intelligence is still. Trying on Trump had a shot in 2016. and he blew it. He got pressure. From Pompeo pal. And those guys and then Biden. killed it. And Biden. knew what he was doing. This is a very bad action. He did. He's undercutting.

Congress, but they've been doing. that for years anyway. And so why why are. they so intent on keeping them? Well, there's. Obviously some bullshit in there. Yeah, obviously. I mean, I'm not saying that those. are the who killed him names, but we should know more about those. CIA guys. There's no files on them. Yes. What was. What was. Angleton up to? That's a big deal. James Angleton, the counterterrorism. chief. What was a Phillips? Dave Phillips, David Phillips up to? He was a very important factor in.

the Latin American operation from. Guatemala on the he. he was the handler for for. Oswald. And Clay Shaw is in. there. There's a bunch of people. that are, the fellow joining. These are the more or less chasing. George Jones. And he's he's he's. he's dirty all the way he was in. from the beginning and they covered. it up at the time. They brought it back as a as a. witness for the hsca. Anyway.

And Harvey. Bill Harvey, I think he needs to. be checked out. If you had to guess as. to why they're holding these. documents 60. odd years later, what would it be? I, you. Know, they they stick they. they declare everything a secret. Everything practically is just. it's it's standard Now. I. So classification. We need more transparency. Yes. It's it's it's a habit.

It's like a dog peeing on a. hydrant. Hydrant. You know, it's just goes on and on. and on. I don't understand. If there's names and stuff, they. They redacted. They redacted. So I'm not looking to government, but I am looking to. honesty. That's what I'm looking. for. And these bureaucrats. in the government, how do they feel? What do they feel about their lives? Are they working for us or are they. working for secrecy? Two people have not been dealt.

with honestly. And we know that. I think Americans know that. I think Americans are very cynical. about the government. Which is part of the reason why. we're hoping that Trump will. pardon Edward Snowden and. Julian Assange. Yeah, good point. Oliver made a great movie about. Snowden. You've met with Snowden. Yes. You know, and. what he did was a great service to. America. He exposed the. mass surveillance that was going.

on of all of us. It was a wake up call. Yes, he should be lionized. But Dan Ellsberg was one of my. closest friends. And all of those, Dan, also. And, you know, and Dan. was facing 115 years in prison. for releasing the Pentagon Papers. But he said it was worth doing it, even though he thought there's only. little chance it could end the war. or affect the end of the war. He wanted to get out this history. And for that, he was vilified. and gone after by. Nixon.

I mean, that was really the best. thing they had on Nixon was the. breaking it down psychiatrist's. office and then the plans to try. to, you know, kill that effectively, kill him, compromise. him, you know, but then ended up by the end. of his life. And what he spent most of his life. warning about was the nuclear. threat, you know, and. the end of his life. He was getting even in The New York. Times and everybody else was. treating him much like what he. deserved to be treated like, which. is a hero.

And I'm hoping that Trump. will understand that and pardon. Ed Snowden as quickly as possible. Julian Assange and Julian Assange. Yeah, well, he. Has Assange is at least, you know, got some measure of freedom. at this point. But he was commuted now. He pled he pleaded on one charge. Yes. But he can't come here. Gentlemen, thank you both very much. Thank you.