Michael Knowles: Trump & Israel, Candace Owens, and Why Christianity Is Booming Despite the Attacks

I was so I was thinking about you this  morning and I I haven't seen you since. 2019. I think that's correct. I think so. And  what's interesting looking back that was only. six years ago is what a completely different  world we live in. So the last time I saw you. you had described and correct me if I've  missed messed up the details. I probably. have. Greta Thunberg as you weren't even that  mean. You're like she's clearly mentally ill. Something like that. Yeah. I said the left is  exploiting this mentally ill Swedish child. So. obviously true. So if you said that now that  the only reason I'm I'm bringing this up is.

just to celebrate how much this country has  changed and how much fear it is. So you said. that in 2019 again wasn't the middle ages we  had air conditioning and air travel. It was. like the modern era and you were deni you were  banned from the conservative TV channel which. denounced you as quote disgusting for saying  that. Now it's like you don't even think twice. about noting the obvious. So, I just want to  say I'm glad to see you in this better world.

Well, thank you, Tucker. It's good to be in this  better world. and you heroically uncancled me. Actually, there were there were a few people who  helped out, but you were one of the people who.

really helped out when I was being uh ostracized  to St. Helena for making what I felt was a. benign observation. Yes. And and you said that's  ridiculous and you kind of forced me back through. into TV. Well, I mean I it what it certainly  didn't require heroism. It was just like that. was so stupid I couldn't believe. You know, it's I  I think it's also important to remember that this. country went through a protracted moral panic that  hurt so many people. Yes. And that we've never. really repented of that and we should. Like I I  interviewed one yesterday. I won't even bore you.

with the story, but he was just another casualty  of that 5-year period where people were destroyed, driven to suicide in a lot of cases during our  cultural revolution. And the perpetrators were. never punished for that. They never even  apologized. They never even acknowledged. They were never forced to acknowledge their  wrongdoing. No. And the people who called you. disgusting for saying something was actually kind  of compassionate. That was my view. It was kind. of charitable. Right for that. Yeah. Yeah. Why are  we exploiting this child who's clearly unwell? She.

clearly is unwell. Wielding children in politics  generally is um unsemly I think. And when when. you're exploiting a a truent in order to score  some cheap point on the Sun Monster or something, I think is uh I think that's disgraceful. as  a matter of fact. But you're the criminal for. pointing it out. And the fact that my former  employer played along with that and called you. disgust is I think that's the word they  use. Disgusting. Yes. And I think look, I'm not saying I'm Fabio, but I wouldn't call  myself dis I don't know that. But but you know,

you mentioned this cultural revolution and  obviously you had all these ideological aspects. It seemed downright Mauist. And then it reached  its apotheiois 2020 2021 with an actual political. lockdown of our whole country. Yes. By all of  these same cultural and political forces. Oh, that's smart. I never thought of it that way.  And then the fog just lifted. It just something. broke. And now it seems like all of that from the  most ideological cultural level all the way down.

to just, you know, being free to go out and like  see granny at Christmas. Exactly. It's over. I We. should celebrate that. We should How should we  celebrate? I don't know. But I I don't think I. appreciate the good things enough. I'm too focused  on the sadness or things that are, you know, not exactly the way I think they ought to be. And  I don't think, speaking for myself, I take enough. time to just be grateful for the good things.  And that is one of the best things. And I very. practically want to celebrate. I I came prepared  today. I don't know if you're familiar with this.

product. Yes, I am. I I said I I try I try to,  you know, mitigate all all these little fun treats. that I have, whether it's a donut, whether it's a  tasty. But I said, "Well, if Tucker, I would hate. to be inhospitable." So now I have a great excuse  to celebrate with You are always welcome to use. an alpier. It's been a year this month. I was I  used the other product, Zen. I I didn't even know. that it was wrong. And it was one of those weird  moments where you're sort of shocked into reality.

Somebody told me I think it's true that the  majority like 70% of of Zen users use the product. rectily. And that can't be. Somebody told me that  and I was like are you serious? And he's like, "Yes, you should try it." And I was like, "I  don't know what this is, but I'm out." Yeah. So, we started we started this, which I think is a  really good alternative. That's good. I No, I I. agree. I cuz it's got to be at least less than 10%  of users. No, I think it's 0%. We actually don't. allow it. We don't allow it. That's really good.  No, but this actually ties in the the fact that.

we are living in an age now where you're allowed  to have some nicotine again. Oh, I You remember. you weren't you were allowed to have um marijuana,  fentinyl, uh you were anything in between, but the. one thing you couldn't have was nick you couldn't  have a cigar, you couldn't have a a a pouch, you. couldn't have anything. And now it's just like cuz  it raises testosterone, whereas weed lowers it. So. it makes you less obedient, more freethinking,  happier, stronger. And those are all, you know,

the last qualities authoritarians want the  population to have. So I was looking back cuz. I I was trying to figure out the morality of it.  I've smoked cigars since I was 15 and I was trying. to figure out the morality. Is this a vice? And I  said, "Well, I don't think so." Uh there's a story. about St. Pius I 10th. He he was uh talking to a  cardinal called him in offered him a cigar. The. cardinal said, "I don't have that vice." He says,  "It's not a vice. You would have it if it were a. vice. You you have enough vices." And uh then  there was the case of St. Philip Neri who one.

the devil's advocate in his canonization process  said that he might not be a saint because his body. was corrupt and because part of his nose had worn  away. They said no no no it wasn't corrupted after. he died. It was corrupted while he was alive from  all the nasal snuff that he did. Yes. And Pope. Leo I 13th the most prolific pope ever wrote the  most encyclicals apparently drank cocaine wine. Vam Marani. Is that true? It is. I've never tried  it. Along with Sherlock Holmes cocoa wine. Cocoa. wine. Yes. Yeah. I'd probably have written more  books had I tried it, but I haven't. It's funny.

Somebody told me an really interesting story  recently about the number of cardinals, current. Catholic cardinals, who smoke cigarettes. Yeah.  And I just love that. I'm not Catholic, but I have. always loved cigarette smoking. I know you're not  supposed to say that. I know it's bad. Killed a. close relative of mine. You know, I'm aware of the  health effects, but I just thought I don't know, there's something about that. And and because  it's Benedict the 16th loved to smoke cigarettes. and he would have one or two a day. When was he  pope? He was he was the uh pope before Francis.

So he was pope. Oh Benedict the one we German  pope. Yes. He would smoke a couple cigarettes. a day. And I thought this is something beautiful.  This is another thing that's come back since our. cultural re is that widely known. You know I  don't know. I'm sure they've tried to suppress. that. You know they probably want to make him  into like a kombucha drinking hemp smoking. No, he liked Marborough reds and but good for him. And  he would smoke them. This is the chief political. virtue. He would smoke them in moderation and with  prudence. And this is the thing. We live in this.

crazy schizophrenic age where you have to be all  one thing or all the exact opposite. What does. Aristotle tell us? It's virtue is that mean right  between the two extremes. You can have you can. have a moral bur every once in a while. Boy, if I  could do that, I would still be doing it. I have. a friend who's over 80 who smoked two marboral  lights which are men should not be smoking those. but whatever the white ones uh every day his  whole life I think it was after a burger they. let men smoke marbor lights it was a little red  part of the decision was out by then so speaking.

of gender bending what do you make of the shooting  in Minneapolis like how should we think of there's. so many different threads there I I I don't really  understand did you read the manifesto the diary so. I I took Look, I saw they were in cerillic script.  Yes, cerillic. My cerillic's not great, but I I. we had some translations done and you could read  the writing on the magazines. And the first thing. that struck me, I mean, after the the horror of  it, you know, you just think the most vulnerable.

people of the of the church being attacked by this  by this maniac. Uh the first thing that struck me. was how apparently incoherent it all was because  it's an attack on a Catholic church on these like. innocent little kids in a Catholic church. And  then if you look on the guns and on the magazines, it's not just anti-Christian, it's anti-Muslim.  It says remove kebab. It's anti-Jewish. 6 million. wasn't enough. It's neihilistic. It's it's  anti-gay. The guy was a [ __ ] And then there's.

the the the scariest part of it is on this page  there's a picture he drew of himself and it's him. looking in a mirror and he's got the gun behind  him and in the mirror is a picture of a demon. and that's scary enough like a goatheaded demon  like a goat baffomet looking demon. When you read. when you translate the cerillic the first thing  that's written top left of the page is who am I? And this is really jarring because you recognize  that Moses at the burning bush, he asks God, who.

are you? You know, who will I tell them that you  are? And God says,"I am who I am. I am." You know, Christ says before Abraham was, "I am." This is  his declaration that he's God. I am. And a a great. priest friend of mine, uh, Father Rutler once  observed that when you know when you're with God, you know who you are. You know your identity.  You're you're modernity thinks that you have to. leave God and just totally go make yourself a  God and then you'll be truly yourself. You'll. find yourself. That's not true. You become much  more yourself, much more perfectly yourself if.

you do what you're supposed to do and and align  yourself with God. And when you when you don't. identify yourself with I am, then you're left  with this pathetic question, who am I? So, you see this obvious demonic influence there.  And what struck me too with all of these apparent. contradictions, it's anti-Christian and also  anti-Muslim and Jew. It's radically LGBT but. also kind of anti-gay. It's anti-Trump,  kill Trump right now, but it's also has. all these kind of far right-wing slogans. And it  reminded me, which is very important to remember,

especially in our in our line of work, because  you're constantly reading all this radical stuff. on your Twitter, the easy explanation, like this  is a representative of this group or this idea. that I already dislike and now you've confirmed  that I have every reason to dislike this group. This is the effect of social media, but this guy,  it's like obviously I'm opposed to the trainy. thing passionately, but you realize that demons,  which are real. They're not under every rock, but they're real. There there is such a thing as  spirits, and they'll they'll try to get you from.

any angle. They'll try to get if they think  they're going to bang you from the right, they'll get you from the right. If they're going  to get you from the left, they'll get from they'll. get you from up or down. That's right. All they  want to do is devour you. It's like Louis and. the Screw Tape Letters. all that just any tactic  that will let them get a hold of you. And it's. so clear with this guy because you realize this  guy was being obsessed from every angle. Wow. So, did you know that before the current generation,  chips and fries were cooked in natural fats like.

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Use the code Tucker for 25% off your first  order. prefer to shop in person in October. Moss is gonna be available at your local  Sprouts supermarket. So, stop by and pick. up a bag before we eat the mall and we eat a lot.  The fact that he drew a picture and that is one. of the few things I saw from the manifesto.  Pretty clear rendition, too. I mean, he was. a decent artist. Yeah. Of himself looking in the  mirror and a demon staring back at him. I mean,

that's like that seems like a page one story. Yes.  this guy was possessed or at least influenced by. in him was some supernatural force causing him to  murder kids. And think about the the two opposing. errors that have led to this just in the last  quarter century in the 2000s. I I remember it. vividly cuz I fell away from faith during this  time. There was the new atheism materialism. You. know what? God's a spaghetti monster. Come on.  There's nothing but flesh and blood. We're just,

you know, synapses firing. It's a tale told by  an idiot signifying nothing. That was one error. I think that's fallen away. Yeah. Then we fell. I  don't think anyone believes that anymore. No. But. now we've fallen into the opposing error, which is  to say actually the material world has nothing to. do with who you really are. Your body your body  has nothing to do with who you really are. Your. true self is this purely immaterial thing. So  if you're a man, you can really be a woman or. what have you. And those are those are opposing  errors that that oppose the real dignity of the. human person who is both spirit, soul, and body.  Once again, something I haven't I hadn't thought.

of. So, we've Interesting. Do you think that the  fact that people live their lives digitally has. allowed them to imagine that the body has no  significance? Precisely. And this is the point. that I think a lot of people have not made, which  is that of the trans ideology is in many ways dead. than disco at this point. The Democrats are  running away from it. It's are they? I think. so. They're downplaying it. It really hurt them in  2024. I think they realized we we we reached peak.

uh sexual madness in 2023. You got they at  least have to publicly back off. However, uh how did we get to that place? You could  say, well, it begins with feminism. You know, the idea that a a woman needs a man like a fish  needs a bicycle. men and women are the same. Goes. into the LGBT movement which says men and women  are the same. Goes into gay marriage so-called. which says men and women are the same. So two men  and two women are the same as a man and a woman. Leads into transgenderism. A man can be a woman.  Okay. I I see that through line. But just think. about the technological aspect. If I live my life  on this little portal to hell that's in my pocket.

It is. It is a portal to hell. All day long I'm  sitt. If that's where I live in my own perception, then my body really doesn't matter that much, does  it? I don't, you know, I'm not like the biggest. uh, you know, Achilles in the world, right? I'm  not uh some hulking Adonis. I'm not an athlete, but doesn't really matter. I just live in this  virtual world. So, is it so crazy to think that. your body doesn't matter at that point? I think  that's my instinct has been for the last few years.

that physical reality does really matter. Even  as I feel like I've had a heightened spiritual. awareness and the dead certain knowledge that  there is a spiritual an unseen realm that is. acting on us all the time and that that's as  real as anything. I sincerely believe that. But on the other hand, I do see a lot of like  ignoring of the physical reality around us. Yeah, this is why by the way, you know, like everyone's  becoming Catholic now. You've noticed this strange.

phenomenon. Uh I think this is a big reason  why it's people the decline of religion has. tapered off. Other denominations and traditions  are growing. Uh but Catholicism in particular. is exploding. Why? I think it's because it's  a sacramental theology. Well, I never would. have called that. Isn't it? Yeah. 20 years ago.  Could you imagine at all? Certainly not. No. The. Spotlight series had just come out and you're just  like this church is too corrupt to continue. And.

I'm not I just want to say again I'm not Catholic  but I strongly agree that there's a revival and I. just see it all around me and I think this is why  you know I mean the the words at the sacrifice of. the mass are uh this is my body which will be  given up for you you know and uh which is which. is mocked you know the phrase hocus pocus like in  magic is a mockery of hocus danum corpus may this. is this is my body you know this yeah it's a kind  of a hocus corpus hocus hocus pocus is a at least. that's a popular etmology and I'm persuaded by  it. Uh so there's this there's always this mockery.

in all of the kind of false religions. There's  always this mockery of of the real sacrifice but. in a lot of religious traditions and I don't cast  dispersions. I had a Baptist grandpa. You know the. Nolles has come from Maine actually. This is a the  ancestral homeland of the Nolles. Amazing. Yes. Yeah. I haven't made it up very often but a lot  of Puritan in the line. But a lot a lot of us had. ancestors in Maine and it's you know they left. I  think it's kind of cold and barren and it is cold. Yes. But I think the reason why the sacramental  theology is kicking up again is because we say,

"Huh, you know, it's I've been living in a  computer for 20 years and I don't even remember. if I'm a man or a woman anymore." But maybe my  body really has something to do with who I am. And actually, maybe this whole religion is about  God becoming man and taking on flesh and dwelling. among us and broiling fish. I mean, the first  the first thing you see our Lord doing when he. when he comes back, you know, his resurrection on  the shores of the lake. He's cooking fish for his. friends and eating for breakfast. For breakfast,  which is a hardcore do they do that only in Japan.

do they do that in Maine it's lobster. But  but there's brook trout actually people eat. them for with baked beans. I think that's why I  think there's just and and co ties into this too. because during co you were told your grandma has  to die alone and you can't see her. You can't go. to Christmas. She has to die alone in a hospital  bed. If you're lucky you can say goodbye on Zoom. And people recoil recoil against that because  it's just contrary to human nature. You know, human beings are we're like the the the angels in  one way because we have reason, we have intellect.

and will and spirits are, you know, don't have  bodies, but we're like the animals in another way. The animals don't have intellect and will. They  have instinct and appetite, but they're they're. bodies, you know, and and we're we're kind of  in the middle of those two things. And you can't. ignore the you can only ignore the body for  so long before people say, "No, you know, I'm a man." Actually, believe it or not, even in  even in modernity, I'm a man. I want to I want to. do stuff. What's a sacramental religion? How is  that or theology? How is that distinct? What's a.

non-sacremental theology? It would be like the the  kind of religion that says that, well, the kind. of religion Obama pushed. You remember Obama,  he he wouldn't talk about freedom of religion, not religion. He'd say, "Oh, you have freedom of  worship. You know, you're free to we're going to. sue nuns. We're going to sue nuns. We're going  to persecute Catholics. We're going to Biden's. going to imprison prolifers for praying outside  of abortion clinics. But you can have your your. worship in your own head. Close your eyes. You  can think things in your own head, but you can't. do anything. And that's not what religion  is. Religion is, as St. Thomas Aquinas says,

uh it's a a habit of virtue that inclines the  will to give to God what he deserves. And you. do it in your whole life. And so a sacrament is  the meeting of the material and the immaterial. the the clearest example, the highest, you know,  blessed sacrament is um is the Eucharist, which we. believe and and certain Protestant traditions also  believe is really Christ, you know, body, blood, soul, and divinity really really present. And this  this is confounding to modern man or says, well,

get me an electron microscope. Let me I don't see  and actually there have been eucharistic miracles. uh where the appearance of the bread is is uh not  maintained and actually gives way to like cardiac. tissue. That's a separate topic. Uh e even in the  the ordinary sacrament, it's this meeting of the. two things. When I go to confession, I confess  my uh terrible sins. I I get down on my knees. in a box with a priest and the priest is acting  in the person of Christ. It comes from scripture. because Christ says to the apostles, you have the  power to uh forgive sins. Whose sins you forgive.

are forgiven. Whose sins you retain are retained.  Uh this that's a real authority. He says that to. the disciples. Yes. And that's a real authority. I  mean, it's not just a kind of abstract, you know, you can just forgive sins by, you know, spreading  a message or something. No, he's saying you have. an actual authority. You can retain sins if the  person isn't really repentant. And that means. that when I'm in there confessing in a box to a to  a guy in a collar, I'm God is actually forgiving. my sins in the person of the priest or not. But  that's a that's a meeting of something I can see.

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Honor the West by leaving your own bootprint.  Toas.com/tucker. Can I ask you um I'm as I've. said a Protestant. I love Martin Luther. I'm sure  you hate Martin Luther, but I really love Martin. Luther. He had some very funny pros. I you know he  had really he was a spicy character. Yes. Um the. real Martin Luther, not Michael Luther who changed  his Michael King who changed his name. Um but.

anyway the actual the German monk but one of the  things he didn't got rid of indulgences thank god. in my view but he also got rid of confession and  I don't understand why that has always struck me. as a mistake and such a great thing that Catholics  do and do you know I mean do you know the answer. the Anglicans still have confession the CS Lewis  confessed every week of his life uh I grew up in. the Anglican church who never had that never  heard of it the these days unfortunatians it. was twice It's the liturgy. Half the guilt. Yeah.  Well, zero guilt. Yes. Zero guilt. You only feel.

bad about feeling bad about yourself. I I was at  the national prayer service at the inauguration. when that bishop wrist lady decided to take the  occasion to scold the president, vice president. You remember that? Do I remember that? It's the  head of my church. Yeah. Do I remember it? Like. every Episcopalian I know all we're all texting  each other. Former Episcopalian but yeah. No, she Well, she I loved that because then the world  could see what it's really become. It's just it's. it's repulsive. It's not Christianity. And she  was just so obviously like furious in torment.

This is not someone who's like experiencing God's  forgiving love. This is someone who's filled with. hate. And they all are filled with hate. It's  all a bunch of recovering alcoholic ladies. with multiple divorces deciding they're lesbian.  Love the little outfits. And then the priests are. these kind of beta males or gay guys who love  the outfits. The whole thing is fake. Like, yeah, but what do you really think, Tucker?  Hold on. What do you really think about about. Episcopal Church? I'm joking. How much time do  you have? That that is a similarly uh Lutheran or.

um Heler Bell like uh vuperation. I totally get  it. I totally I'm not very Christian, but no, no. I mean, it's had a huge effect on my life.  So, obviously, I'm a little mad about it. I need. to repent of my anger. But um but I was just  delighted that the rest of the world could see. what it has become because obviously you know the  Episcopalians ran the country and did a great job. I would say much better job than the current  people running the country uh are doing and.

they had a wonderful taste and so they built the  prettiest churches each with a red door. my whole. life we had a red door on our house always every  house because we're Episcop there's a lot that. was good about them and I think people haven't  updated their files and they don't know what. goes on inside and not in every Episcopal church  one of my closest friends is an Episcopal priest. and a sincere and wonderful man godfatherred one  of my kids but um in a lot of Episcopal churches.

it's hateful menopausal ladies like that and  their gay sidekicks and it's just the saddest. ugliest crulest thing ever. And now everyone  saw it. Everyone saw it. And and the other thing. about it is if you go if you go to church and your  church is, you know, some some lady spouting off. about, I don't know, like, you know, the latest  migration policy and whining about Trump. Then. then put aside the political issue. You just ask  yourself, well, why am I going here? Well, that's.

exactly the question we ask. I get this I get this  six days a week. Why do I need to get this on the. seventh day? Especially when I could be in bed  with my wife and my dogs. Like you just ask me to. get out of bed and like take a shower at 7:00 in  the morning, which I hate doing to go to church, which I, you know, I really feel like I should  be doing. And this is what I get. There's nothing. transcendent. It's all you and your little therapy  session and you're like filled with hate. Like, no. But this is why I I this is how in answer  to your question, how did these things sort of. decline? I think part of it is it's it's a spirit  of liberalism that that comes out and abstracts.

everything first of all away from time and place  and community and family and body and just all. like these really tangible things. It abstracts it  all into outer space and uh then on the other side. of it it brings everything down that everything  has to be totally not even egalitarian. It's it's. like a kind of Harrison Berseron handicapping  of everything. You just got to make you've got. to make the church like the world. And there's  a great line from I think it was Fton Sheen who.

says that if you wed the spirit of the age,  you'll find yourself a widow in the next. And that's what these and and the Catholics are  not guiltless in this by the way because after. the second Vatican council, there was a lurggical  reform to turn everything into some happy clappy. sort of party. The priest then faces the people  instead of facing God as as you know leading us. all in worship. And whatever the age of Aquarius  I guess demanded that in the 60s or something, but I think people have had enough of that. And  I think people hate the disenchantment and the. degradation of the world and just the the physical  ugliness of it. And we we want to look up again.

When was the last time someone built like a cathe  I mean you go to downtown London which has got to. be the saddest place on the planet. Um and if I  didn't have family there I wouldn't go there. But. I do and so I do. And you go and you see that the  prettiest buildings in the city were built before. electricity or machines of any kind actually.  And it's it's also tough to get around London. now because my Arabic isn't very good. So fairly  there's that my urgy speaking of like things you.

couldn't have imagined even two years ago. I  read Elon is now calling for the repatriation. of like a lot of European non-Europeans out of  Europe. Yes. And I'm like what? Which obviously, you know, I I understand why he feels  that way. But to say something like that, we just sort of casually dropped that yesterday. I  think it's like we're living in a different time. Of course we are. And not 2020 anymore. I I just I  just hope that the return to sanity happens while. Angela Merkel is still alive. So she gets to see  the undoing of her policies flood Europe. I mean.

it's crazy to destroy it to destroy Christian  Europe forever. Well, you know, this was the part. I mentioned Bellock who has a similarly sort of  delightfully asserbic style to what you're allowed. to mention him. Yes, Bella. Are you allowed to  Bell is uh listen, he was buddies with Chesterton. Chesterton's slightly more clubable. So I  thought maybe you're allowed to mention Belok, but but Belellock said in his excellent book  on the Crusades, he said, "Look, excellent, excellent, highly recommended reading." Uh he's  oh the I I can't even do justice to the vividness.

of his pros, his kind of both bloodthirsty and  totally charitable way of writing. But he says, "Look, the Crusades were lost. We lost the battle  of Hatine. That was 1187. That was it. It was. done. And and we flatter ourselves. We think that  that Islam is sort of done. He's writing this in. the what 20s or 30s. Yeah. Says we think Islam  is done and Christianity is strong. He goes, "No, Islam remains intact. The only reason it seems  like Christendom is on top is because we have.

certain technological industrial advantages."  He goes, "Once that passes away," he goes, "Our moral certitude is totally cracked up. We  are in a much worse place than our opponents in. the Crusades were." Exactly. I think that's  really preant uh and wise and true. I mean, it's so obviously true. And it was the affluence  born of technology that rotted the soul of the. Christian West. I mean, wealth did this just as  it does to families. And I'm not against wealth. I mean, I haven't acred much, but you know, I'm  not I'm not for poverty for sure, but I it's also.

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Earth built for real life. I mean, this is I I  carry around a prayer card. Listen, I haven't. I haven't sold enough cigars yet that I'm too  worried about generation. ask you about the cigars. cuz I don't I I don't know. How did you wind up  the cigar business? But hold on. But I I take it. too seriously to address it parenthetically. I  Yeah. So I I feel as though I I've got a really. nice life, you know. I got a nice house. I got  this beautiful family. I have nice little duads. and things like that. And you have three sons.  Three sons. Three son. I cannot produce true.

wealth. I It is true wealth. And I can't produce a  daughter, which means I'm going to go to a nursing. home someday if I don't I need a daughter. True.  So that's that is the truest thing. I I'm sad. for you that you already know that at 35 that your  final hours will be spent alone and your boys will. be somewhere with some hot girl be like, you know,  he was a good guy. Whatever happened to him? What. was his name? Matt or Mark or something. Anyway,  he uh Whereas if you had daughters, bedside vigil, yes, dad needs a catheter change. Whatever it  takes, like they will do it. This is that's.

actually why I need generational wealth is just  to pay for my long-term care. But you're going to. have some Haitian lady who's out for a cigarette  when you croak. You need some daughters, man. But. I, you know, I carry around a prayer card of St.  Jerome, who translated the Bible. It was great, also a great kind of a rhetorical pugilist. And  and there's a great quote from letter 22. I think. he would write all these letters to Roman noble  women. And and it says whenever you start to be. enchanted by the pleasures of this world, it's not  that you have to totally, you know, deny them all.

the time, but whenever you start to be enchanted,  think about where you're going. Uh think about how. this is all going to end up and try to be now what  you will be hereafter. Easier said than done. No, it's Yes, I couldn't agree. I don't have my phone.  I would read you my favorite quote on that exact. subject. Um, every New Year's my wife and I go  to church. We don't go to the service because. it's Episcopal Church, but we go in the afternoon  to say our prayers for the year. And every year, you know, you sort of I always feel like I get a  message or like something resonant like this year.

is going to require this quality. Yeah. In order  to get through it and thrive in it. And this year, man, the message was so clear like this is all  passing away. And to the extent that you love, you know, material things and take great,  you know, undue pride in your own stupid. accomplishments, like you're a fool. You're a  fool. I I think you can kind of see this with. with Trump now. Actually, I think Trump is and I  probably it happened after Butler, Pennsylvania.

Something seems to have changed in the way that  he speaks. I was just there. I I visited the White. House to do some interviews and things just a  week ago. And what's so amazing is you are at. the peak of imperial power on earth, the absolute  head of the strongest government maybe that has. ever existed technologically certainly that has  ever existed. And you walk around and you think, you know, it's great and I'm glad to be here. Even  this, it's a government building, first of all.

Exactly. It's kind of drab, which is why Trump's  trying to fix it up a little bit. And even this, even this will pass away four years. as well.  Even Trump Trump's been kind of president for. 12 years. He's been the dominant figure in  public life for 12. His president will have. been for eight and you think even this is going  to pass away and you're going to be sitting in. your bed with your Haitian nurse as you watch.  What what is this about? And she's going to be. like listening to some game show at high volume  and you're going to want her to turn it down, but you've got a tube in your throat and you  can't tell her. She doesn't speak English. There's literally nothing you can do about it.  You can't extend your life by one day. You have.

no power. Actually, yes. To control the things  that matter. And most of our power is destructive. power. You can kill people. That's why heads of  state love killing people. Whatever they say, they love it because it makes them feel like God.  Yeah. Obama would joke about it. I got drones. I'm. coming for you, Jonas. Brother, they love it.  They all love it. I've talked to a lot of them. about it. They love it. And the clever ones try  and hide the fact they love it. Well, you know, it's the burden of the office. But that's not how  they feel. They take delight in it because it's an.

expression of power. But I mean it is the weakest  kind of most transitory kind of power. Yeah. Of. course. And you know the three killing people,  the three material things that people want, fame, money, and power. Yeah. And they're and I'm  not saying I don't want them. I'm not saying. I haven't enjoyed the modicum I've gotten of any  of them. But one thing that happens when you get. a little taste of each is you realize that it it  ultimately is unsatisfying. Yeah, it does. It's. and I was talking to a friend the other day. The  prize is not worth winning. Yes. Right. Because.

you get there and and you say, "Okay, well now  what do I want?" And and the Do you know the. exact I've done a scientific analysis. The exact  amount of money, fame, and power that will make. you happy. Just a little bit more. Just a little  bit more. Yeah. Yeah. I got into it so young that. I don't I don't feel that way at all anymore. But  I do think fame is not not something anyone should. ever want. I don't I don't see the upside in that  at all. I don't know. Like what could possibly be?

I'll tell you the upside. Sometimes you'll get a  free appetizer at dinner if someone likes share. show or something. That's that's great. I like  free appetiz. You feel so obligated. What does. that mean? Do I have to name my next kid after  you? Like I don't I don't like presents. You. know what I mean? My next child truffle French  fry. Yes. Ah, after Yes. It's so true. So, but just to go back to the the what's happening in  the Catholic church. I don't know. Is it happening. in the church or is it happening under the sort  of wings of the church opaces of the church? Is.

it happening around the church or is the church  itself like experiencing a revival? Well, it's you know we're all the mystical body  of Christ. So it's uh you know it's at at. the level of the episcopet you know the bishops  and the pope and every there's a new pope and. uh but the ley too we're all part of the body  of Christ and there is just something kind of. happening and and I think even you I have this  doc series called the pope and the furer which. is about it's really about pest the 12th who was  the he was the pope during World War II until 1958.

and he's this image of the old school pope you  know the papal tiara arms extended very you're. supposed to feel bad about that pope. You're  you're supposed to cause the war or something, right? Yeah. And it turns out um none of that is  true. And so I I there was a famous play attacking. him. Th this is how this is everything you need  to know about pest the 12th. There was a play that. came out in 1963. So long after the war, a 5 years  after that, but right before the papal council, I.

noticed, right? Yes. Right around the time of the  of the second Vatican council. How odd. promoted. by the KGB and communists and interesting the way  that literally promoted by communists and the way. that you know that it's all nonsense is first of  all after after the war and and and then after. pis the 12th died everybody lauded him everybody  not and not not the communists I guess but secular. religious Christians Jews everybody lauded this  guy he was an amazing hero the chief rabbi of.

Rome converted to Catholicism right after the war  and took his name Aogenio. Augeno Pachelli was the. pope and he was Aoenio Zoli one. He said this man  was an amazing friend of Jews and all of humanity. It was just an amazing he was painted as a Nazi.  Yeah. Hitler's pope is what these ridiculous. people really promoted by communists tell you. But  the way that you know it's all nonsense is was the. point to influence the council. I I think really  my kind of deep thesis on the the pious battles.

which really exploded even in the '9s much much  later. I see it as a kind of intraatholic battle. So in that way I guess it it would involve the  second Vatican council and reforms afterward. which is you had this man as a symbol of Catholic  tradition and you had people within the church who. didn't really like the tradition and maybe wanted  to change things and one thing about the church. you can't change anything you know you can't  you doctrine develops but you don't change and. I think it was it was a battle for the identity of  the church you know in order to radically change.

everything pas I 12th had to be slandered and  calmated the fact that The chief evidence against. this man is an 8-hour work of fiction that no one  has ever fully staged, absolute garbage by this. random playright rock Hulk Hoth or something. Uh  is promoted by the KGB. Uh tells you everything. you need to know cuz the facts are just totally  contrary to that. The official story on 9/11 is a. complete lie. The 9/11 report is a joke. You have  the CIA following two men all over the planet and.

then eventually even to America, right? And you  don't tell the FBI 911 commission to cover them. So what did happen? What did the government  know? What did foreign governments know? There was a cover up. Why? It's been nearly  25 years. It is time Americans learned what. actually happened. We're going to tell you.  We're releasing one episode per week. You're.

not going to want to wait. If you're a  member, you don't have to. You get all. five episodes the day it drops. Right then,  ad free. Our first episode airs Thursday, 9:11, September 11th. You will not want to  miss it. Join us now at tuckercarlson.com. Interesting. But even now lo these many years  later that the stench hangs in the air. Yes. I.

it's absurd. It will it will dissipate with time.  You know the church measure me measures her years. not in weeks and months but in uh centuries. No no  no no. That's that's right. It's just that's just. interesting. I know so little about it. Um but I  my instinct tells me strongly that it was that was. a pivot point in the history of the modern history  of of the church. like what did what was Vatican 2. as we non-atholics call it? Well, listen, I'm  I'm a trad a traditionalist in good standing. I attend the traditional Latin mass. I have my  I have my totally unexpired trad card. Uh but.

the trick here is one can't criticize one can't  totally reject the council. This is an ecumenical. council that was legitimately called by the church  with dogmatic constitutions. So you don't just say. throw it out. And the the funny thing is people  who talk about Vatican 2 prone against have never. read the documents. I certainly haven't. What was  it? Can you just summarize it for us? Well, yes, it was uh it was an ecumenical council.  There have been many of these. What does.

it mean ecumenical council? Bishops all get  together. The So, it's this is like, you know, the real deal. This goes all the way back to  antiquity. And the fact that we talk about this. one council as kind of the the biggest one in the  whole church is silly. You don't talk about the. spirit of the fourth lading council. You don't  talk about the Well, I think the reason that I'm. fixated on it is because as someone who's kind of  pro- Catholic, I guess I mean I Catholic curious. I'm not Catholic curious. I'm not going there. I'm  a Luther man. But the idea that, you know, in 1950.

the majority of like immigrant kids in our biggest  cities were schooled in Catholic schools and that, you know, went to church every week and like it  provided order and well, Christianity, which I. believe in. And like I'm very in favor of that.  And then post Vatican 2, this is just my like. ignorant overview, that all collapsed. And those  I don't know how many Catholic schools there were.

in 1965. They're probably less than half now. All  those churches closed. There are lots of factors, but like and then you have the molestation scandal  which was to some extent real and horrifying. Yeah. And all these people leaving the priesthood  and fewer people becoming religious. I don't know. It's hard not to see a connection between the  two. But maybe I'm wrong. Well, Pope Benedict. when he stepped down he he kept writing and he he  wrote a non-insyclical but it was it was he wrote. he was the pope before France the cigarette  smoking German. Yes. The cigarette smoking. German. Uh he he observed he said you know part  of what happened because you have to distinguish.

between what the council actually said which  was relatively minor. It's a pastoral council. You know, and then there was this big reform  that totally changed the mass and totally, you know, uh changed the smells and bells and the  ornamentations which which matters because the. way we worship dictates how we believe. There's a  phrase lexandi lex credendi you know if you if you. worship a certain way obviously that's going to  change how you think about things of course it's.

going to change how you live your life and and he  said you know the the Catholic church was swept up. just like every other institution in the entire  west was swept up in this cultural fervent this. cultural fervor of the 1960s and in some cases it  helped impel that fervor and it was like a I don't. know like a kind of a madness took over the all of  these reforms and then what happened is the fever. started to break and so after Vatican 2 you get  um John Paul I who was pope for 30 days and then.

uh you get John Paul II. John Paul II in my mind  is kind of like the Napoleon of the Catholic. Church. He's a he's a child of the church of  the revolution but he's also the undoing of the. revolution and is lauded loved by conservatives  profoundly anti-communist helped end the cold war. uh really important man now canonized a saint  after him you get Benedict and Benedict said. something really brilliant which has been  an he said many brilliant things but this a.

real antidote to the spirit of the age he said  there were kind of bad actors I'm reading into. this there were some bad actors who tried to  use the council to exploit the council to say. that everything that came before that contradicts  what we want to do in modernity that's got to go. we've got to read the past only through the lens  of where we are now. This is a broader cultural. phenomenon. We do it with American history. We  do it everywhere. Everything is just about us. And looking back, of course. And what he said  is, "No, no, no. We do it generationally. We do.

it generationally. You can't imagine your parents  having sex." Yes. I don't know about yours. Every. generation imagines its inventing everything out  of nothing. Yes. What Benedict said was, "No, no, there is a hermeneutic of continuity. The way we  interpret the past is is not by going in reverse. It's that whatever we think in our with our  limited uh store of reason in modernity with all. of our fashions and temptations and novel aspects,  we have to understand that as being in continuity.

with the past. And if we think there's been some  radical break, we're probably wrong. Who's more. likely to be wrong? Uh the smartest, most serious  men for 1950 years or like you? me I'm more likely. to right and so that that is the that that was  the fog breaking I think but can I ask like what. were the ch were there meaningful changes made  during that council yes changes in the sense that. there were certain pastoral elements that were uh  that were discussed and and written into dogmatic.

constitutions so an understanding of religious  liberty uh this is this one is sometimes u. protestants love religious liberty and Catholics  do too properly understood but this is sometimes. considered Ed somewhat radical because the church  also believes error has no rights. Error noet use. So what does that mean? Error has no rights. Well,  in liberal modernity we say that every cockamamey. idea, every deviant ridiculous behavior is some  human right and we have to protect it with federal. subsidies. And the church says no, no error.  When you when you say things that aren't true,

when you do things that are contrary to your  flourishing and to nature, there's no like right. to that. But of course, the the rejoinder is error  has no right. Well, that is pretty anti-modern. It's quite anti-modern. Yes, it's about as  anti-modern as you can get. And you can say. people who er have rights. So, not saying error  has rights, but people who er and the Catholic. Church has a long history of toleration contrary  to what, you know, pmacists in the enlightenment. or what have you would say, but a long long  history of toleration going all the way back.

to the earliest days of the church, beautifully  articulated by Gregory the Great, all the way up. through the Middle Ages. It's again, these are  the the stories that no one's taught in school. anymore. Uh however uh you know that could be  misinterpreted as to saying that like I don't know. we have the right to some like you know Satanist  display in the in the courthouse or something as. as activists argue today. Totally ridiculous.  What else does Vatican 2 contain? Uh Vatican 2. well so here's my son here's my actual question.  So the at the core of Christianity is a claim of.

exclusivity. Every human being Yeah. Every human  being on earth reaches God only through Jesus. Yes. Period. Doesn't matter. Like nothing else  matters. That's it. That that's the one that's. your ticket. You can't board the train without it.  Yeah. Is did that change? No. Okay. The answer the. answer is no. Uh some of the confusion of this  is well there's quite a bit of confusion about. that. Part of the confusion is there's the  claim in Latin extraclassium nulosal. There's.

no salvation outside of the church. The church  does not change her view on that. Uh however, people are always asked this question, you know,  what about my u you know Protestant grandpa or my. I don't know my atheist dad or my Jewish or my  Hindu or my Muslim or my whatever they go to. One of these is not like the others, but that's my  view. The Protestants. Yeah, I would say yes. No, but if you take a really uh rigorous exclusive  claim here and you say, "No, sorry. you're all,

you know, you're all totally without any hope. And  I I guess what the the council clarifies is that, you know, we we pray for these people. There is no  salvation outside of Christ. There is no salvation. outside of the church. Salvation subsists within  the church. Uh however, it allows for some as a. pastoral matter some greater dialogue uh in this  modern world. What's the difference between Jesus.

and the church? Well, Christ founds the church  and Christ is the bridegroom and the church is. the bride. So, Catholics, the the official church  position is unless you're a member of the church, you don't go to heaven. Well, this is something  that would be uh sort of clarified at the second. Vatican council or maybe not clarified. Maybe uh  it's just uh leads to more ecumenical dialogue. or something like this, but that one could say  when you're baptized, you're a Christian. You. might never receive any of the sacraments. You  might never go to church, but you're baptized. That's that's what delineates you as a Christian,  right? uh and uh so we we pray for the salvation.

of everyone. A good a good example would be  because this is coming after the second world. war. So obviously they're addressing the Jews  in particular and uh you know the the council. states clearly that uh you know the Jews are our  elder brothers in faith and which is another line. that's you know sort of used pymically in all  sorts of ways and uh so you know God doesn't. revoke his promises to his people and this can  be taken into all different kinds of ideolog.

uh well that was that's a statement of the council  but this comes from St. Paul okay you know St. Paul says that uh God for the for the sake of  the gospel uh that the Jews aren't with it, you know, but uh for the sake of their forebears,  you know, God loves the Jews and because the call. of God and the gifts of God are irrevocable.  So what does that mean? This means Paul was a. Jew obviously. He was a Pharisee. Yes. Yeah. What  this means and and this gets back to what we were. talking about at the top with sort of Aristoilian  um virtue is the mean between two extremes. There.

are two views on this. uh one is uh a view that  says that uh you know you don't need Christ to be. saved and specifically the Jews don't need Christ  to be saved. And another view is that uh you know. God's done with the Jews and forget about the  Jews now and it's just only the church. And what. uh what St. Paul is saying and what the council  is clarifying is there's kind of a little bit of. room for both. There is, you know, Christ is the  savior. He's the one savior. He's the way the and. the road is narrow and he's the way and the truth  and the life. And also God doesn't hate the Jews.

and God still has a plan for the Jews. And so this  is something that the Catholic Church does that. uh other um denominations and ideologies don't  always um they fall to one side or the other is. uh she brings in well what what I would call the  fullness of truth. So what does that so that means. that there are people who can go to heaven without  believing in Jesus? No. though a uh one one could.

uh sort of unwittingly have be following Christ  uh and one could have a I don't know one the the. firmness unwittingly un well really you can't I  mean and actually zoom out a little bit again to. natural religion this is another this is another  error that um well was debated in antiquity and. still comes up in modernity which is the notion  that uh you know the these pagans in natural. religions, they just have nothing of value. You  know, what has Athens to do with Jerusalem? That.

sort of thing. And uh but that's not really  true because, you know, natural religion does. have something to recommend it. And I think uh  Pope Francis got in trouble for recognizing that. that in all sorts of um traditions there is often  a kernel of of truth. There is at least some truth. in it. In paganism, there's a kernel of truth. You  think of CS Lewis L Barfield and those guys loved. the the myths because there it tells us something  about our human nature and the first Vatican.

council tells us that the existence of God can  be known with certainty from human reason looking. at the created world. There's more to it. You you  got to keep going. You know that God also reveals. himself but but that you can be certain God exists  just by looking at his creation. Yes. Using your. That's the truest thing ever. Yes. Right. Science  gets you to God in the end because there's no. I think so, you think so. Thomas Aquinus thinks  so. But but a lot of people in the modern world, they say, "Oh, no. Religion is just it's just  kind of a private matter of judgment." Well,

they're children. They've never thought about it.  I mean, that's and think about there was a new. doctor of the church just named just within the  last few weeks. That would be John Henry Newman, greatest theologian in the English language. He  was made a doctor of the church. And uh Newman's. entire life was spent inveing against liberalism  in religion. You know, this kind of uh wishy-washy. sense. Who is Newman? Newman is great. He was  a a Protestant and very anti-atholic and then. uh then he became a Catholic and then he became a  cardinal and then he became a saint and uh he was.

American. No, British. He was British. We I don't  think we have any American doctors of the church. yet. I'm working on it, but unfortunately I have  like a fifth grader's understanding of theology, so I don't think I'm going to Yeah. I don't even  have that. But I I certainly I believe but in a. child a childlike way. Yes. Um but but so Newman  was a British Catholic theologian. Yes. And and he. became Catholic. And one of his conclusions and  it's something that we're coming to grips with.

today is we we can know things. we can actually  know things that this modern idea that religion is. just a matter of private judgment, you know, and  so you you're you're a Shinto and I'm a Methodist. and it's like whatever man, who knows, you know,  you just do you and it's all good. And he says, "No, religion is a public thing. It's a scientific  thing. We can know something about it." He wrote. a great book. You look at the crises of the  universities today, there's a remedy to it,

which is a book that he wrote called the idea of  a university. And in this book, he says, you know, it's so crazy. We have these institutions that  purport to universal knowledge and increasingly. they won't even acknowledge God. But just  on its face, even if you're like the most. hardcore atheist you can imagine, how can you even  pretend to universal knowledge while denying God, the source and summit of all knowledge? How what  are what are we talking about then? We're talking. about just like chemistry problems, you know,  that's kind that's so silly. We're talking about.

data actually just an accumulation of numbers and  what they say is no no what in because we live in. this world after the crackup of Christrysendom  where everyone has their own private ideas you. know there's just no way of knowing anything for  certain so we're just going to settle on certain. economic matters we're all going to try to get  rich we're all going to try to live in relative. peace and we're going to leave that heady stuff  you do that on Sunday morning and that's obviously. impossible do you remember 20 years ago there  was this phrase it hasn't worked it Let's look.

around. Well, actually looking around here,  it's okay. But if you look in the cities, it's. not so great. There was this idea that you you  can't legislate morality. Do you remember that? Do you remember the idea? It was the operating  thesis of the United States of America. And yet, not one person ever practically believed it. Of  course not. You can't you can't pass a law about. speeding. You can't pass a law about jaywalking  without recourse to morality. Of course. And. when you come to that conclusion about practical  morality which is ultimately derived from your.

understanding of religion, you are going to impose  a moral view on someone else. Maybe someone else. is very pro-Jaywalking. Maybe someone else deeply  feels in their sincere religious beliefs that they. need to jaywalk. All rules are based on a moral  code. Yes. And they're exclusive. You you can't. violate the law of non-contradiction. Either  you're going to have a law against jaywalking. or you're not. Either you're going to have a  law against murdering babies or you're not. And you're gonna you're gonna impose that  on people. That's just that's how government. that's what government is. Well, as soon as people  started saying you can't legislate morality, they.

started giving everybody very much, including me,  these moralizing lectures. The country got more. rigid and moralistic. It's why you were described  as disgusting for noting that Greta Thunberg is. unwell when it's obvious. Her mother wrote a  book about it. And sad. Well, exactly. And sad. And she's worthy of compassion. Um, but that what  happened to you is a result of this like epidemic. of shallow but highly aggressive moralizing that  took the place of something that we had before.

Yes. And and and that's why I think okay now we're  going to get on our puritanical high horses about. pronouns or whatever you know like which where  where you must put rainbow flags which is on in. front of every door everywhere in the country. uh  we're going to get on our high horse about that, but we're gonna we're gonna shrug our shoulders  when it comes to murdering babies, when it comes. to the meaning of marriage, when it comes to  whether a people can have borders in a nation with. that, oh, we can't know about that, but we can  know about some ridiculous gnostic heresy about.

pronouns and identity or whatever. It's totally  incoherent. And so what you're seeing, and this. to me, well, they just replace Christianity with a  much less forgiving religion. Yes. A much harsher, cruer, less compassionate religion and and false  religion. Well, of course, a definitely false. But. in its effects, you could tell it was bad because  it didn't elevate people or forgive people. It. wasn't kind to people. It was cruel and unyielding  and vicious. And I mean, all these people got.

destroyed, literally driven to suicide. If if  you don't like the god who loves you, just wait. till you meet all the other gods. Yes. Because you  got everyone's got to worship something. You know, Bob Dylan was right about that. So, how did you  go? So you said that you were an atheist when. you were at Yale, I guess. Oh, from No, when I  was 13, I was confirmed at 13. In the Catholic. Church. In the Catholic church. And before my  confirmation, I told my mother, I said, you know, I don't believe it. Christopher Hitchens, he's  so smart. And uh, you know, Richard Dawkins,

and I'm really taken. I'm such a You thought  Richard Dawkins was smart? Listen, I was 13. Okay, come on. Come on. I And actually, the new atheism  really appealed to punk 13-year-olds who thought. they were smarter than they are. That is the ideal  audience for the new atheism. Really? I think. so. And I told her, I said, "I don't want to be  confirmed. My mother uh she's she's h you're going. through a phase. You kid, you're going through  a phase." Wise woman. Wise woman. She goes, "Receive the sacrament." She wasn't even like  super duper religious, but she said, "Receive the.

sacrament. You're going to regret it if you don't,  and you're going to come to your senses in a few. years." She was totally right. Uh so I I did that.  I was away from the church. Would have called. myself an atheist or at least an agnostic for 10  years. What can I just ask what did you think was. cool about I mean Hitchens was I knew him well.  It was you know clever. Yeah. Lots of good things. about about Hitchens but his life was so sad that  he was not really an advertisement for atheism. I didn't think but like what did you think was  cool about that whole Well, I thought religion.

was for stupid people. Yeah. I thought religion  was for stupid people and I of course didn't know. anything and hadn't read anything and my brain  was hadn't lived but I I I was quite wrong but. I was never in doubt and so I been there yes yes  I I I said look I just don't I don't see God bad. things happen to good people and you know science  has microscopes and anyway and getting actually. getting back to the point on the re the reforms  of the church and everything changing It it was.

kind of weak lurggically. There were all these  sappy effeminate hymns that were like, you know, about eagle's wings and stuff. There was they're  not really appealing to a young boy and all this. nonsense. The eagle's wings got you like Oh, God.  It was such, you know, it wasn't even cool in the. 70s when those No, I know. Oh, I was there. Yeah.  And and so so I said, "Well, look, it's just so. obvious. Social proof. All the smart people  are atheists." And then I get to college and. and everyone's an atheist and many people are much  smarter than me in college. But I did notice the.

smartest people believed in God. Really? Yes. Yes.  There weren't a ton of Muslims, though there were. a couple, but across the board, the Muslims, the  Jews, the Protestants, the Catholics were smarter. They seemed smarter. Maybe their IQs weren't even  higher, but they just seemed more with it. They. made better arguments than some stupid spaghetti  monster nonsense from Christopher Hitchens. And. I said, "Huh?" And then I was presented with an  argument for the existence of What an interesting.

observation. Yeah. And there weren't even that  many of them there, but you you kind of say, "Oh, wow. It's a little bit the wheat from the  chaff, you know, uh they'd have to be the braver. section of the population, too." This is one  of the arguments to go to a liberal college is. even even just in your own politics, if you can  make it through and not be swept along the tide. of liberalism and you make it through to the end,  you will have heard every argument. You will have. heard every reputation of everything you believe.  You will either give up some of your beliefs.

Maybe some of you should or you will become much  stronger in your beliefs, which is what happened. to me. I left Yale much more right-wing than I  went in without question. And and I'm not the. only one. So I I was presented with an argument  from a guy who's smarter than me and he said, "You think God doesn't exist? Uh what about the  onlogical argument?" And not I won't be tedious. with the but the argument is basically God's the  maximally great being. That's this definition. Uh. he has all the great making characteristics, none  of the corrupting characteristics. It's better.

to exist than not to exist. We would all agree  with that. We'd go off ourselves right now if we. disagreed with that. Therefore, God exists. That's  it. That's the argument. And Bertrand Russell, a great logician, atheist, famously threw his  tin of tobacco in the air. He would have had. Alps if it if it had been around at the time. He  famously threw his his alps his tobacco in the. air. He said, "By golly, the onlogical argument is  sound. It's easier to think there's a flaw in the.

argument than to actually point out the flaw." And  I said, "Well, darn. I can't refute that." Then I. read Lewis C. Lewis. So, who is this person who  said that to you? This is my roommate, actually. Uh, whatever happened to him? Oh, he's my best  friend still to this day. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Very, very close. And he's a Christian. Yeah. Yeah.  and he he was a cradle Catholic raised kind of. megaurch Protestant and then he he reverted to the  church. she was confirmed in the church later on. And uh but well, you know, he and I and some other  people were kind of going through this together,

you know. So I would say 18 to 23, I was I was  really dragging my feet, you know. I said, "Oh, CS. Lewis makes good arguments. Chesterton makes good  arguments. Maybe I should read the Bible at some. point. That might be smart. I'll do that later."  And uh I'm going through I finally, you know, seriously read the Bible at 23. I said, "Oh, this  is this is true. This is this is right." You know, first you have to accept that God exists. Then  you say, "Okay, well, is is Jesus who he says he.

is? If he's not, that's going to lead me in one  direction. If he does, it's going to lead me in. another direction." Then you have to ask yourself,  well, is the church what kind of church did he. establish? That's going to And there were plenty  of Protestants along the way who were really. helpful in my return and thinking. So, you know,  I I it was very helpful this whole period, but I. took the long road. I took the long route. I could  have just, you know, Nor McDonald, the comedian. Of course. Of course. Greatest comedian probably  ever. I didn't know him really, but he and I, we would write each other long letters on on  Twitter DMs for for weeks. This is the strangest.

thing cuz I saw he was following me on Twitter  and he wasn't following a lot of people and I. was a huge fan of his so I didn't even want to  message him. I was so And one time he he sent out. a tweet and it sounded kind of desparing. Now we  know he was dying of cancer. I thought I thought. he was suicidal or something. I just sent him a  note. I said, "I feel bad if I didn't." I said, "Hey, Norm, uh, huge fan of yours. If I can be of  any help, I don't know that I can, but uh, I'd be.

happy to." And we started writing each other these  letters. And, uh, really? Yeah. For for weeks, every night, just for weeks, long essays really  to Nor McDonald on Twitter DM. It's weird. This. is one of the strangers every night. And he he  he would do this thing where he'd say, "Michael, you know, I I can't do it." Right. Norm say, "Uh,  I I I I it would be prideful for me not to take. you up on your offer." Uh because Michael, I'm not  an educated man. You're an educated man. I'm have.

an undergraduate degree. I'm not an educated man.  I didn't really go to college. And uh and then he. would he would do this thing where he'd make it  seem like he's just some old chunk of coal. Not. that. And then he'd use a word that I didn't know.  He was certainly much better read than I am and. loved the Russian novelists. And we were talking  about religion basically the whole time. And he. said to me, I I don't know his I still don't know  his particulars of all of his religious views, but he said, you know, for me, I uh I told him  how I converted or reverted, and he said, "Oh,

yeah. For me, I just uh I've just always known  the Bible's true. I just always knew. I just I'd. read it and I just knew." So anyway, that's it.  And I thought, well, that's that's the better. that's the better way. You know, it's it's like uh  Christ to Thomas the Apostle. He says, you know, uh blessed are you. You've seen and believed, but  uh but blessed are those who have not seen and yet. believed. And and that was Norm. And yeah, that's  another example too of you think, okay, the whole. culture and all these smart people are atheists.  Norm is one of the smartest pop culture figures.

that's been around for decades. Yes. And but he  knew and it's just like everyone kind of knows. deep down. Everyone kind of knows. That's totally  right. And that's why they're mad. Yeah. Yeah. People feel judged. They feel judged. I never  feel judged by like the earth is flat. People, you know, I don't think the earth is flat, but  I don't It doesn't bother me that you do. You. know what I mean? I get a kick out of it. I'll  go down the the Whatever. It's not a threat. I.

don't because I just I know in my heart it's  they're probably not it's probably not flat. You know what I mean? Yeah. But the ancient  Greeks No, I remember thinking that even in. early high school with the question of abortion  and you know people just get hysterical about. it. Like hysterical how dare you judge me and all  this. It's like whoa I wasn't even really judging. you but like clearly you're judging yourself.  Yeah. Because you know that you took a life and. I you know there are all kinds of extenduating  circumstances. I get it. But in the end, you you.

killed the kid. And that's how they know that you  did. The devil gets you this way because he says, and before you commit the sin, he says, "It's no  big deal. It's no big deal. It's nothing. It's. it's a clump of cells. It's nothing. It's your  freedom. It's your body. It's your choice. It's. your It's Come on. It's no big deal. You're not  going to feel bad about it." And then you do it. And then that one second later, he's in your ear.  He says, "You'll never be forgiven. You can you. can never admit this is wrong. The second you do,  you are damned walking the earth. you are done. You're done. And I think that explains a lot of  modern behavior. It's totally right. It's totally.

right. If you ever watched a shout your abortion  event, which always like fascinly fascinating to. me and I always feel so bad for the girls cuz they  they but they never really can muster enthusiasm. for the abortions they had because and you  can see it right in their faces. It's like, "Oh, I feel so sorry for them." Can you imagine?  Well, this you know to to make it fully religious, Peter Craraft made this observation that even  the language of the abortion, this is my body.

is a satanic inversion of the Eucharist. This is  my body which but everybody know I guess it's sort. of I'm just tying to the Nor McDonald observation  which is gosh the truest thing you read it you're. like oh wow that's true even that was certainly my  experience in reading it even things I was like I. don't like that but I still thought that's true  yes 100% true you know you all know cuz everyone. does have a conscience even if it's darkened by  sin and a little bit and I don't know drugs and. porn and you know like dumb class mine was shiny  like stainless steel but yes I can imagine there.

are others who had darkened consciences Yeah.  Yes. And but but you all kind of know and then. the other impulse which is you know centuries in  the making well it really goes back to the fall. but especially politically with liberalism is this  notion that we are really to be gods ultimately we. are in control. No gods, no kings, only men and we  we decide. And so I never fell for that. That's so. obvious. I fell for [ __ ] I totally fell for it.  Really? And I I never thought that would for all. my many problems and lies I've believed and lies  I've unwittingly repeated and all my many sins. I.

never bought the word God's thing because we can't  extend our lives really. And if you can't do that, then you have no power. Tucker, you clearly  don't read the news. We're on the brink. We're. this close to curing death. I see it every day  in the headlines. They've been trying it since. Pharaoh. But they're they're this close now. Don't  you know? You know, it's like salmon farming. Salmon farming is my favorite idea because it was  something I just thought because I I obviously I. love to catch salmon. I'm a fisherman. Yeah. I  love Atlantic salmon fishing. They're, you know,

it's hard to catch them. There aren't that many  of them. And so the idea was people love to eat. salmon. Let's just let's just have a salmon  farm out. Just make a giant net. Just breed. them right there in the ocean. Like there's no  downside. It cures the problem. Yeah. And salmon. farms have basically destroyed wild salmon both  through the pollution and for crossbreeding with. the salmon and and you know, they don't spawn. Um,  and they've I mean, we're in danger of like losing. We don't spawn either, by the way. No, exactly.  No, but we're like in danger of losing Atlantic.

salmon as a species because of salmon farming.  People are just starting to figure this out. And. but it's like it's a species of the same lie. I'm  in control of nature. Oh [ __ ] we'll just salmon. farm. Like, duh. You know what I mean? We'll just  whatever it is. I mean, we we have done that. We. have now uh exercised increasing control over how  we spawn through contraception. Exactly right. We. Oh, well now we're in control now. This is going  to lead to flourishing. We're going to die off. I mean, we have a global population collapse on  the horizon. So, if you ended up like extending.

human life to 150 years, like the last 80 years  of the life would just be like living hell. Do. you know what I mean? I mean, for one thing,  I've always thought this is like one insight I. did have when I was young, which is the problem  with getting old is not like bladder control, and it's not even dementia. It's it's instead  it's remembering your youth and how much has. changed. And it's the burden of the past becomes  unbearable. And any old person will tell you this.

in their moments of lucid thought. They'll tell  you like, I'm just I can't believe how fast it. went. And they're they're crushed by that. Yeah.  So imagine living to 150. And think about when. they're all promising this and there are people  on the right who are really into this too. Radical. life extension and and say Michael if you could  take the pill to live for 500 years would you do. it? I said not a chance. Dude, I won't take an  Advil. Like pills are bad. Okay, pills are just. Let's just start there. Pills are bad. Anyone who  wants you to take a pill, [ __ ] off. Okay, that's.

like that's how I feel. So I just I strongly feel  that way. But why would you want to live to 150 of. and this is the understanding. I mean, you know,  the the curse, you know, when we fall out of the. garden is that we die and but is that really  a curse? If you live in a world that's fallen, it's full of like murder, rape. I don't think  it's it's actually a great mercy. So, it depends. what you think happens next, I guess. Yes, that's  true. And people are, I think, also increasingly. aware that something might happen next. you know,  they're kind of clinging on to this hope that,

well, I hope this is all there is, you know, and  I just turn to worm food and take a dirt nap, you know, and and uh I I don't think that makes  sense at all. And the smartest people in history. didn't think it made any sense. I don't think  anyone in history's really thought that. No. Until. Hiroshima, which was the ultimate expression of  god-like power. And that that that is what killed. I am uh I am the destroyer of worlds. Exactly.  And become death, you know. Exactly. Yeah. So, what Okay. So if all these young people are  becoming Catholic of all unfashionable things.

like that's probably the most unfashion, you know,  but by the standards of 30 years ago becoming a. Catholic. It's crazy. It's crazy. It's insane.  Yeah. This is why I think you know that the vice. president is probably the most famous convert in  recent years and and people his political enemies. are always saying, "Oh, he's cynical. He's just  changing his views with the times or whatever.". I think, hold on. You're telling me a guy who had  a tough upbringing who graduates Yale Law School, wants to start is in Silicon Valley, then goes  back, he wants to launch a political career in.

Ohio. The way he thinks he's going to do that is  by becoming Catholic. You think that's going to. help you? No. That's like the craziest thing  to do if if you were thinking cynically or. opportunistically. Well, it's a radical move,  I guess. And again, I'm not promoting. I'm not. doing it. But I just as an observer I'm like,  "Wow, that's pretty wild." So I guess here's my. question. It's a political question. If people  if young people are converting to Catholicism,

like what else about their views is changing?  Everything. Okay. So that's my sense. Well, on. the political level, and I think this also touches  on part of the conversions, we're beginning to. realize that history didn't start in 1965. History  didn't start in 1865. History didn't start in 1776. or even 1620. We're part of something that's much  bigger and much broader and much more beautiful, you know, and even just in our political order.  We used to call it Christrysendom. Now we call.

it the West. And there has has been an attack on  that going back many decades now. I think of Jesse. Jackson marching down Stanford. Hey, hey, ho,  ho, western civ has got to go. and and people are. beginning to realize, you know, it's not that I  just want to preserve my town or my 90s liberalism. or my what I want to preserve this great cultural  patrimony that I've I've been given. And that. cultural patrimony has to go deeper than than  just aesthetics. And it has to go deeper than just.

abstract ideology. You know, cult and culture come  from the same root word. So what what you worship. is going to define your culture. And so what's  the what's the bottom? What's the foundation? What's the ballast for all of that? I think people  uh you know, even beyond questions of conviction. of the Holy Spirit and rational arguments and  all that, they're just saying, "Well, you know, this thing's pretty sturdy. It's been around a  long time." Belock, again, Belo keeps coming to. mind. He had this line. He says, "Uh, I am uh" he  said it more eloquently. He said, "I'm required.

as a matter of faith to hold that the church is  divinely instituted. But for those who doubt it, uh, one proof of its divine institution is  that no other, uh, group conducted with such. navish imbeicility would have lasted a fortnight.  Obviously true. Yeah. The best thing I ever heard. from a practicing Catholic in the last 5 years. I  was there was no one around a very close friend of. mine and I and he was going on about Catholicism.  I was like, "Okay, but that pope is just I just.

can't I won't even tell you what I said, but it  was hostile cuz that's how I felt." And he goes, "Are you sure you're not Catholic?" Yeah. Well,  that's it was the greatest thing ever. He goes, "Yeah, I totally agree, but he's not the  worst pope we've had." Yes. Was completely. non-defensive. This happens. It's like, let me  tell you about the 9th century. No, but I think. that's right. If you want to win people over,  don't be defensive. Yes. Don't Don't tell me that. there's no that what I'm seeing isn't real. Yeah.  Yeah. Be honest. Of course. Of course. I mean, it.

is. Okay. But I I don't know that I've talked to  too many Catholics about Catholicism. Maybe they. all feel that way, but I thought that was just a  wonderful response. Totally. You know that we we. have to remember that the pope is fallible except  when he's infallible. And sometimes uh sometimes. God gives us bad popes to make us really grateful  for good popes. And the other point I'll mention. on Francis because you know obviously I had some  questions about the Francis Pontificate. Yeah, I reverted during the Francis Pontificate.  This trend started during Francis. Yes,

it might have been in in reaction against many  of the things that Pope Francis was said to stand. for. I don't know exactly how it worked. That's  above my pay grade. But that's you think of uh. like the progress of the church and our whole  civilization and we think of it as just like a. straight line but it's I think it's a little bit  more kind of like this you know and the papacy. goes to he for a little bit and there's some  king is like arresting the pope and you know. it's like kind of a little bit more secudous  but it's always pointed in the same direction.

So there's not it just reminds me of God using  Pharaoh blinding Pharaoh to the truth in order to. save the Jews from slavery. Yeah. which is what's  described. And I always imagine that there's a. direct line between the quality of the leadership  and the and the quality of the people. Of course, this is why I can't but that's not always  true. So, as America becomes more prosperous, the people become weaker and sillier. Yes. I mean,  that's how I grew up. I grew up in the, you know,

richest country in history. And but there was  a steady decline in the quality of of thinking. certainly and of behavior and of leadership and  of leadership. Yeah. I mean was it is it HG Wells. who said uh democracy is the theory that was it?  No, I don't who was I forget who it was who said. democracy is the theory that the common people  know what he what they want and deserve to get. it good and hard. Is this why I can't get into I  have many I I love the populist movement. I was so.

into the rise of Trump. I remain into the rise  of Trump. I think this has been the healthiest. political awakening in my lifetime. I think I'm  all about it. Uh but I can't I can't throw too. many stones merely at the leadership class because  one, the civil authority is there for our own. good. It's it's uh in that way appointed by God  uh in a certain sense. And also we kind of get. the government that we deserve. If you don't know  anything about your country and you don't care. about your civic life and you're just going to be  greedy, you're either going to on the left side of. things just indulge in weird social stuff that's  purely selfish and on the right side of things.

you get engage in economic selfishness and no one  cares about the common good and no one cares about. the body politic. Then that's kind of where we are  right there. Yes. And you're going to get crappy. leadership a lot of the time and sometimes you get  a sometimes you get a second chance. So it's just. like greed greed and elastic your choices. Yes.  And this look this is this is classic uh political. philosophy going all the way back which is that  greed avarice is the beginning of evils in the. city and it's natural and you you have to worship  of money is the root of all evil. Yes that's.

right. So okay have you noticed I I mean I have a  lot of young people work for me. you have children. and all that, but like every month or two, I'll  run into like a younger person like at an airport. or something and always strike up a conversation  and they'll say things that, you know, super nice. or whatever, but like you just feel like, wow, the  attitudes are people are getting by my middle-aged.

standards pretty freaking radical. It's crazy. I  was talking You've had this experience for sure. I have always been the most right-wing person  in any Me too. Me, too. And I I've always been. the radical. I'm like, man, I better shut up cuz  my thoughts are not welcome in public at all. And. all of a sudden, I'm like feeling a little bit  more moderate. Yes. Well, that's good. Listen, now we can go on TV say, "Look, I'm the  moderate. Okay, I've never felt moderate in. my life." I I was talking to a professor uh who  is very very right-wing, and he said, "Michael,

it's the craziest thing. For the first time in  my life, I'm being outflanked by my students. I'm. being outflanked." He said, "It's never happened  before." And now part of this obviously is like. a pendulum was like so far over here. You know,  trans your kids and kill the ones that you don't. trans it. It's going to fly back in the other  direction. The which is good. That's a healthy. impulse. This is where however one must have a  solid foundation with proper authority and guard. rails everything because you you need to make sure  that you don't fall into the the same error on.

the other side. You want to you want to get back  to sanity and reason and be fully in command of. your will and your intellect and you don't want to  center your views on hating people. You certainly. don't want that. You need char. I mean, you  know, St. Paul says, "If you don't have charity, you got nothing." Yeah. Well, every wedding  service in the country one Corinthians 13. So, no, I think that's exactly right. But I just wonder  as like a political matter, here are a few of the. things that I sense. Um, people feel free to say  what they think in a way that is so inspiring and.

great and refreshing, but also a little shocking  because what they think is like not what they're. supposed to think at all or have been supposed to  think. Um, I feel like there's a recognition that. the the whole like let's put women in charge  of everything just didn't work. Cracker Barrel. didn't work out. It didn't it didn't work.  Female leadership just didn't work. I mean, I I guess I wanted it to work. I don't know how  I felt about it, but it didn't work. M and people. feel free to say that there's also I have noticed  from talking to younger people a recognition that.

um that democracy just kind of isn't working  or our our conception of democracy. I don't. meet really anybody who uses the term democracy  non-ironically. Yes. Do you? Well, uh, when you. go back to the framers of our constitution, you'll  recognize that they use the phrase democracy in a. uh, derissive way and as a warning of of, uh,  impending peril because even the notion that. our country is a liberal democracy, that is a  self-conception that came up in the 20th century.

It started a little bit in the 30s. It really  took off uh, after the world war and then it it. reaches its peak in the 80s. That's when it gets  escape velocity. We're not a liberal democracy. uh we're we have a democratic element a healthy  democratic element to our country in actually. in large part I think it comes in because of  Toqueville's great book democracy in America best. study of America ever but but even there our our  regime is a mixed regime our regime has a strong.

democratic element as it was initially instituted  it has an aristocratic element in the senate and. it has a monarchical element in the president so  you even think today of all the kings around the. world the president of the United States probably  has more practical monarchical authority than say. King Charles, right? Adrien Vermule made this  point the other day. I I'm pretty sure the the. president of the United States is a more robust  king than like the king of Norway or whatever. And so our regime, this was intentional, by the  way, and it's outlined as the ideal regime in.

the Suma Theologia, but it goes all the way back  to Palibius, this notion that there's a cycle of. regimes because because it's a fallen world, and  so maybe you have a a monarchy, but it's going. to degrade over time and it's going to become a  tyranny. What's the difference between a monarchy. and a tyranny? A monarchy is for the common good.  Tyranny is for private interest. You you can have. an aristocracy, you know, government by good lots  of, you know, a small number of good people. That. will degrade into an oligarchy. I think we've seen  a lot of that in recent years. Common good versus. private interest. And you can have a democracy and  a democracy can be quite good. You know, that the.

virtue of the the early American republic that  can degrade into a kind of mob rule where it's. just people pulling for their own factions and  their own private interests. And so, you're going. to have this cycle of revolutions that's going to  go on. What the framers of the constitution tried. to do was escape that cycle uh by instituting  a mixed regime, no matter what they called it, a republic if you can keep it, or a constitutional  system or whatever. and it has held pretty well. It has been increasingly democratized, so it's  probably like leaned a little bit too much onto.

that side. Trump, I think, now is trying to  restore and and this is part of a a a program. that had been going on for decades, restore a  little bit more executive authority to balance the. whole thing out. But, uh, regimes fall, you know,  that's the norm in world history. And so, we are. at a real risk of that if we don't, uh, correct  some of the degradations in our own regime. So, what would that mean? What degradations need to be  corrected in order to forstall revolution? Well, here's here's one. The 17th Amendment, I do feel  like we're this country's much more volatile than.

people publicly acknowledge. Oh, yeah. The  the 17th Amendment creates direct election of. senators. Today, we say, "What would be wrong with  that? There's nothing wrong with more democracy. Isn't that good?" Have you met the senators?  I've met a lot of senators. It's the densest. collection of douchebags and liars and sex freaks  I've ever met in my life. I mean it. And just wait. till you go to the house. I work in television.  I feel like there are more normal House members, but the Senate I mean there are some  exceptions who guys I like and a lot.

but but only a handful. I like that. Listen,  some of my best friends are senators, but a. lot of them I was just with I am friends with a  couple of them and I say these guys are freaks, man. They're all freaks. Like John Cornin, what's  his search history? No, I'm serious. You know, I actually don't know John Cornin. But if you had  a hold of that guy's iPhone, like what would you. find? Any of these people? Ted Cruz. I love Ted.  Oh my god. I love He's a good friend of mine. He. is. Okay. But I get But I'm just saying I'll leave  Ted out. I'm not going to attack Ted. I've always.

liked his wife. But I'm just I don't know. Yeah.  It's not working. It's not It's not And think. about how these guys got elected. These guys It  used to be they would be elected by the states, which meant that the states had a role in the  government. You know, we're supposed to have. states. Yeah. We don't really have states. No, we  certainly don't. They're kind of all vassels for. this imperial blob of bureaucracy. But uh why  did we lose that? I antinine Scalia said this. to me when I was a student. I got to meet him a  couple times undergrad and he said we asked him. about states rights. He said, "Why are you asking  me about states rights? I'm a fed. I'm a fed. What.

do I care about states rights? You got rid of your  states rights in the progressive amendments when. you had the direct election of senators. That's  states rights are done. The civil rights movement. killed it. Civil rights movement killed it.  interpret the the implementation of this. I mean, every every government office has a civil rights  division now. It's like Christopher Caldwell, an. excellent guest on your show and a great writer.  Wonderful guy. His his his book Age of Entitlement. basically uh proves this this uh thesis that  there there's a parallel constitution which is in. tension with the old constitution. So you do have  a crisis of regime that's coming up. And uh how.

does that play out? I hope peacefully. I really  hope I think it can play out peacefully. You know, some people on the right, they'll say, "We I want  a civil war." You heard this a lot during BLM and. CO and I want a civil war. On the left and the  right, they say say, "I don't want a civil war. If there's a civil war, I'm going to have to like  shoot my cousins. Do you do you know what you're. saying? I want a civil war." Do you know what a  civil war is like? You know, Dante is one of my. favorite writers. Civil war ruined his life. He  said it's like the worst thing that can happen.

because the whole point of a political community  is to secure peace and order for the common good. so that we can flourish. And when you crack that,  I mean, the whole political community is just. an extension of a family. It's the Spanish Civil  War ended 85 years ago. And you go to Spain now, they're still mad about it. It still divides that  country. Yes. Greece, same way. Weird. We have to. be angry that the communists were defeated, the  Bolevixs who were uh killing priests. Spain is a.

uniquely sad country. It's a wonderful country and  wonderful people, but oh my gosh. Yeah, they had a. that was demonic. Obviously. Obviously, they began  by shooting a statue of Jesus. So, that was kind. of a sign. Uh, but yeah, and every evil person  in the United States joined and yes, what was the. Abraham Lincoln brigade? Abraham Lincoln brigades.  I remember when I was a kid, I heard that some guy. died. He was in the Abraham Lincoln. I said, "Oh,  it's Abraham Lincoln brigade." I looked into I. said there's nothing communist. Was Stalinist  Stalinist like the entire American left was.

Stalinist. This is why talk about the changes in  the 60s into the 70s, you know. This is why they. had to get Nixon. They never forgave Richard Nixon  because he he got Elahiss. Richard Nixon knew that. there were actual communists in the government at  the highest levels of the State Department helping. to found the United Nations and he knew it and he  got him dead and he believed Whitaker Chambers and. he got him dead to rights. They never forgave  him for it. That's totally true. And they made. up this whole fake scandal and took out the most  popular president in American history. Yes. No,

I know. It's very distract. But anyway, the  I guess the point is a civil war has our own. civil war. It's only finally kind of cooling down,  you know. Well, and we're relitigating it. Well, cuz reconstruction never really ended, right?  Let's just humiliate the South and turn it cities. into slums, which we've done. So, yeah. No, it's  all uh we don't want a civil war. I totally So, how do we avoid that? Well, I I think we need uh  strong leadership, which we are getting in Trump. We actually do have an executive who on the right  who's willing to do things. This has been a big.

problem for the right because of ideologies that  were essentially liberal where the the right said. you need to elect us so that we do nothing. That  was their explicit pitch. If you elect me, I won't. do anything because I want to principally uh in  with great dignity and integrity and principles. uh give away all the power because if I ever do  anything, then the minute the Democrats come into. office, they might do the all the things they've  been doing for 50 years. So, we can't have that. Yeah, national re review republicanism. I was I  mean Buckley Buckley at least uh I mean Buckley.

defended McCarthy for goodness sakes. He did. He  absolutely did. This is then he turned on him but. yeah at a certain point it was politically  incorrect to but but you think of uh those. early days Brent Boselle you know who Ghost  wrote Conscience of a Conservative and amazing. book. Well Brenazelle meant it right. So he was  exiled cuz he really meant it. He was mentally. ill. Okay. And he went over in the after the  Spanish Civil War. Oh, I know. Yeah. Yeah. Raised.

his family in Franco, Spain. No, I know. He meant  it. But but that I look, there's always been this. uh hodgepodge on the right of disperate groups,  as you well know, that like don't totally make. sense together. And so you have the traditional  conservatives. Well, the the fusionist coalition. was the traditional conservatives and the  libertarians and some Warhawk Democrats who wanted. to take down the Soviet Union. Yes. And I think  it made sense at the time. It u common enemy in. the Soviet Union. I was there for that. Of course.  And it's I read commentary every month growing up.

We got it at home. Yes, we did. You don't have any  copies around here anymore. I mean, I don't know. where I was raised on commentary. I mean, we're  like this Protestant family getting the official. publication of the American Jewish Committee. I I  read every issue. Arch Puddington, Ruth Vissa or. whatever. I think they hate me now, but whatever.  I I grew up reading one one of my favorite lines. recently was from Norman Poretses who said they  said, "You're the founder of neoonservatism.". He said, "No, no, I'm so old that I'm now a paleo  neoonservative. I'm too old for that." And this. is I, you know, there's the Paleos and the Neos  and the Libertarians and the traditionalists and.

the this is and obscure political monikers are  the right-wing version of gender pronouns. No, it's totally Everyone's got his own thing. And  this is what I love about Trump is Trump is Trump. an ideologue? No. Do what what kind of ism does  Trump ascribe to? Trumpism. Trump that's what he. ascribes to. Americanism, I guess. I don't know.  This is a man who has brought together a disperate. coalition of like weirdo crunchy hippies and bow  tie wearing traditionalists and libertarians and.

Silicon Valley tech futurists and like it's the  craziest coalition ever. And he has brought them. together and won the popular vote for the first  time in 20 years as a Republican. And it's it's. an amazing thing to see in action because he's  got a vision and he's just a force of nature. And so the question I think on a lot of our minds  now I think this is what all this Trump is dead. discourse is about. There was this viral meme that  Trump died because he got a bruise on his hand or. something. He went to play golf one day. They said  he was dead. No, he's still around. He's around. I. verified that. Yes. He's still around. And I think  a lot of that is an anxiety of wow. We got this.

reprieve from all the craziness and all the decay  and all the division and we we're actually we won. the popular vote. You know, things are on track.  And what happens next? When the patriarch's gone. Well, I mean, you know what happens in families  when the um it can be really hard. Yes, it can. be really hard. I I have a lot of confidence in JD  Vance. I I think he's quite clearly at this point.

set up the vice president as the successor. I hope  that's right. It seems like in the cabinet meeting. the other day, he said, "Look, Rubio's done a  great job in the 15 jobs that he's doing in the. admin." At least at least 15. And but he said in  the cabinet meeting the other day and I noticed. it and I no one no one around me seemed to have  heard this line. He goes, "Everyone was talking. about what a great job Rubio was doing." And he  said, "Wow, Marco, you you've just been amazing. I frankly I hope you never run for another office  because I want you to do this for the rest of your. life." And I said, "Well, that that seems like  a win. If those are the two most uh not papabul,

they're the most like presidential ob, you  know, of the for 2028." Said that seems like. he's saying, "No, this the vice president is my  natural successor." drum drops these bombs in. every conversation you have with him. I I don't  I don't inter I haven't interviewed him that many. times because it's so difficult. We get dizzying  cuz he does the weave famously. But every time. I've interviewed him like 3 days later I'll think  what did he just say that right in the middle of. the Right. Yesterday he was doing an interview  with the Daily Caller. Right in the middle of the. interview he was talking about Israel and I love  Israel and I've no one's done more for Israel than.

I've done and you know rooting for he's very  pro-Israel of course and then he goes um they. used to own Congress or whatever. He said that.  He goes, "You know, the Israel lobbies totally. control Congress like nobody else." That's not  true anymore. I'm like, "Did you just say that?". Yeah. It was Do you I remember in the what the  interview or the press conference with Netanyahu, this was months ago. And I I don't think I was  taken in by theatricality. I think this was real.

when he said, "And look, what we're going to do is  uh the United States is going to take over Gaza.". And you look at Netanyahu and he's sort of like he  looks at Trump and he kind of looks nervously at. the audience. He's kind of laughing but kind of  not laughing and he's what is it? He goes we're. going to take over Gaza. We're going to build a  big Trump casino there. Whatever. I don't know. what he's going to do. You know, we're going to  build it's going to be beautiful. It's going to. be the Riviera of the Middle East. And it was it  was it was so apparently out of left field and. I'm not even convinced he's totally sincere on  that. I think he's a great negotiator and he's.

working uh other angles. It was weird. I was  actually in the Middle East that day when that. happened and I was eating with a bunch of you  know local residents um who run the government. in the country I was in and I'm like did what you  know and I was actually sitting at the table and. they played that everyone's staring at this and  I thought I don't know what the hell is that what. do we have to do with Gaza like I my instinct is  always like we had nothing to do with this I'm out. you know it's like when girls fight like I don't  want to get involved I'll take Monica I'll take. the French Riviera I don't need the Gaza Riviera  That's exactly right. Um, but their reaction was.

is I have no idea if this is true or not, but it  was so interesting. They're sophisticated. Very. sophisticated. They're like, "Oh, no. That's  an attack on Netanyahu." Yes. That was their. gut reaction. He's basically tweaking Netanyahu.  It wasn't It wasn't a, you know, a haymaker. It. wasn't He wasn't collaborating on that. It was a  little poke. And I think Wait, so you think that, too? Yes. I think it was a little poke at In what  way? in the sense that it's in the cabinet meeting.

the other day uh Trump was asked I said you uh  promised that this war would be over permanently. in five seconds after you were inaugurated and so  when are we going to get a definitive conclusion. to the war and he laughs definitive a definitive  conclusion he turns to Steve Wickoff he says hey. Steve how long this this this conflict this has  been going on uh thousands of years is it yeah. there's no definitive conclusion we're just trying  to stop the bloodshed we're trying to establish. some kind of peace And it was this brilliant  uh move because in what other way are you going.

to get the Israelis and the Arab League and the  and the Iranian regime all united in not liking. this one plan by suggesting we're going to go in  and take it and and so you know it's it's a it's. basically an intractable situation. There will  not be any permanent resolution probably until. the second coming. Uh so what you want to do is  just establish some modicum of political order. Uh what I would especially like to see happen is  a preservation of the holy sites and uh you know. pilgrimage access and all that. Uh but we should  demand that. I mean that's not even it's like no.

one owns Jerusalem. Sorry. Yeah, of course. But  there's easier said than done in a messy neck. of the woods. Well, and you're paying for it.  You can just be like, look, our first demand is. Christians need to be able to visit the church  holy supplr. So, of course, of course. Well, you know, I don't know. I don't know. It it seems  to me that the the holy sites still seem to be. okay. Uh in Gaza, there was unfortunately the  attack on St. Perfurious. Um which I I grant was.

accidental. I don't think it was I I don't I don't  see why from a strategic perspective it would be. beneficial to the Israelis to like particularly  stick a finger in the eye of the Christians when. America is your last political a lot of it. I  don't know. I don't understand it. I think it's. self-destructive behavior, but but what I care  about is the effect on Christians, and it's just. not not good at all. Well, and you have to ask  yourself, too, okay, what's the conclusion? You. could either have the state of Israel take over  Gaza again. Had Gaza from what, ' 67 until '05, then just gave it away in '05. Hamas gets elected,  Hamas runs it for a little bit, and then there's.

the October 7th attack. Israel is going to say  now, okay, this is an unacceptable security. risk. We're not dealing with this anymore. Uh, so  you could have Israel take it over. That's going. to be probably an unsatisfactory resolution.  You could have the Arab League take it over, some Egypt take it over. I don't I don't know  that they really want to do it. No one wants to. touch that hot potato. You could have And then  Trump just drops out of the air. And he says, "Yeah, we're taking it and we're going to develop  condominiums and we're going to ship all of the.

residents to South Sudan." That was floated, I  think, in the Israeli government. South Sudan, the one place on earth that's less pleasant than  Gaza. And I don't think that's going to work out. well at all. And and what what is I think Trump  is totally sincere in what he says. He goes, "My. solution here is not some permanent answer that  will totally make the Israelis happy and totally. irritate all the Arabs and the Persians. My answer  is not going to totally make the Israelis unhappy. and totally satisfy Egypt or whatever the Arab  League. It's I just want some semblance of peace,

which is where I've I feel totally vindicated on  this. I've said for years when everyone is calling. Trump the N-word, you know, they always call  him the N-word, a nationalist. Oh, yeah. Always. they call him the N-word. And I said, I don't  really think he's a nationalist. He loves the. nation. He's a great patriot. He supports strong  borders. But I said, I don't think he's really a. nationalist. I think he's kind of an imperialist.  He wants to acquire Greenland and invade Canada. I I don't think that's not generally  what like yman farmers do in some No, no,

that's a Teddy Roosevelt move. Yes. I think his  vision of America first is that America will take. due care to prioritize her national interests.  Part of which is accepting the political reality. that we're the global hedgeimon and we need  to maintain some modicum of world order. And. this goes back to the really uh a really ancient  conception of the political order which is that. the purpose of empire is to just have peace and  order. Uh this is you know this is in the Anid in.

book six of the Anid Anias goes down to his dad  in the underworld and and the dad gives him this. whole view of what's going to happen to Rome and  he says you know look different peoples are given. different arts the uh I don't know the Greeks  are good at making suaki the uh the Chinese are. good at making bad soup and the Romans awful soup  awful I've you know I've I've never even tried the. panggalan is good but I've never tried the bad  he says the Romans their art is to govern and.

It's it's not governing is not like fun. It's not  the most uh glorious necessarily thing. You know, in some ways it'd be more fun to be a writer. It'd  be more fun to be a poet. Be more fun to go. But. that's what the Romans are given is to govern.  And it's just a job in the world and someone's. got to do it. And you just need to establish  relative peace and protect the rights of nations. and just keep on keeping on. Do you think we're  suited for that? I think I think Trump is quite. suited for it as a as an individual, as a national  leader. Is America suited for it? Uh, it's not how.

we started. We weren't we weren't looking for it  when the country began, but we we got it. I mean, I I totally agree. Someone's got to be dad. I  mean, that is absolutely just the nature of man, and there's no getting around it with in  sherking. It doesn't make it go away. So, I completely agree with that. That's where I do  agree with the neocons. I guess kind of. Yeah. But. but in a different way like cuz the neocons at at  their most extreme would say we have an obligation.

because of the demands of history with a capital H  to spread liberal democracy around the world. It's. just stupid. But like the smart like I remember  David Brooks who was impressive. I know it's hard. to believe, but at one point when I knew him 30  years ago, it was smart and he would he would say, "Look, you know, someone's got to take control  because there has to be order at the center." And. I that's not stupid. Um where I began to really  hate the neocons where my whole politics began to. revolve around opposing them as an ideology, not  as a not as individuals, but just the idea is bad.

some of the individuals. Some of them John  Pores, but uh No, it's when I went to Iraq. And the main takeaway for me is we're not good at  it. Yeah. We're just like leaving aside the dumb. spread democracy and all that nonsense. Turn  Baghdad into Belgium was stupid. But what's. not stupid is idea that you can't have disorder  because it metastasizes. And I'm getting there. My assessment and has not changed in 25 years  is we just not we're not suited for this at all.

because we don't have the self-confidence required  to do it because our society at its core is really. thin. There's nothing really there actually other  than some distorted version of capitalism which is. kind of disgusting. Do do you think that was true  say in the 50s and 60s and it's changed or I think. the fight you the cold war the battle against the  Soviets gave a kind of clarity and purpose. Yeah, but even then, you know, the US um sided with the  Vietnam actually in 1954 at Dian Benfu against.

the French. Like there was never really a kind of  consistent um that's little known. Yeah. But not. even grand strategy, but like a consistent  worldview or instinct like the English for. all their many faults at the height of empire,  the height of the Victorian period, like they. really believe they were superior. Now we deride  that as racist, but you have to have that. You.

have to believe my way is the better way or why  are we doing this in the first place to extract. minerals. Like that's not over time. People  can't sustain that. You really have to have an. evangelical spirit. And we don't have that. Well,  and and think about what Trump's been knocked for, especially in the recent Alaska summit. He's  been knocked for shaking hands with Putin and, you know, being nice to him. Yeah. And I I think,  well, hold on. We've tried the other way. Bush W. Bush tried to talk a little tough or tried to  be sweet and then talked tough and and Putin. invaded Georgia. And then Obama, oh man, he talked  tough after the reset failed and Hillary Clinton.

couldn't spell a simple word in Russian. Then uh  that failed and he talked really tough. Oh boy, was he tough. And Putin invaded into Crimea.  And then you had Trump and everyone just kind. of chilled. And then you had Biden. Man, no one  talked tougher than Biden, huh? Oh, didn't he have. such moral clarity? And Putin invaded further  into Ukraine. the world order clarity thing. is a clarity. If you think that Joe Biden was a  better leader or a better man than Vladimir Putin, like I don't even know what to say to you. That's  insane. There's by no measure, by no measure,

did Joe Biden's country, the people he solemnly  swore to help and defend, did they thrive? No. They withered. Putin, who's been there for  25 years, his country's improved. The people. are happier. They like him. Actually, the war has  been a little tough on Putin. The war, of course, it's been tough. Of course it's been tough. I'd  be curious about public opinion today this far. into the war. Well, actually it's measured a lot.  Yeah, look it up. And you can say, "Oh, that's all.

a lie." Okay, well, show me one. Okay, go there.  And look, I I'm not moving to Russia, but I mean, Putin has been the most effective leader in my  lifetime. I can't think of a more effective one. He's been a a very stable leader for Russia. But  why is he more evil than Joe Biden? Yeah. Well, I can't even conceptualize that like, you know,  you could say, look, he I I don't know his I don't. know his religious views, but he he he's promoted  Christianity within Russia aggressively. Yes.

Uh to combat, you know, uh liberalism and all  these other forces. Joe Biden has uh you know, imprisoned prolifers and sued nuts. Well, exactly,  etc., etc., etc., whatever. But I guess the the. reason that I I kind of pull away a little bit  from the this is kind of neoconi to me is the sort. of the purely good and evil and totally agree with  and to me I think well look I'm on the side of my. country even if Joe Biden is running it which  is a great pity if he is and I am because it's. uh dude I'm with you of course patriotism is is  an extension of filop piety just like just like.

you know all liberalism comes down to saying screw  you dad like I hate my mom or whatever and I think. no no we we are to respect our parents and to love  our countries and Russia has uh interests that are. not aligned with ours and they have missiles  pointed at us and you think well okay Putin. for for all of his sins uh Putin is defending  the interests of Russia and I think there was. a sense look Biden would say he was defending  the interests of the United States or NATO or.

whatever he he didn't do a very good job at it at  the very by the way NATO yeah exactly and this is. why this is why you'll notice Trump doesn't use  this good and evil language all the time and the. way he talks about Putin he says look Putin has  interests. He has hard interests and I have hard. interests and I'm if I can be a little diplomatic  with him, I'm going to do it. I'm reminded of Do. you remember the Jeffrey Goldberg article in the  Atlantic which said uh it was the Obama doctrine. This was back in 2016. I'll never forget it.  This PE and it what's so funny now is it was a. fascinating piece. Fascinating piece. Goldberg is  a liar. I know him and one of the most dishonest.

people I've ever met. um truly dishonest but a  very talented pro- stylist. Yes. And the it's. like an interesting reporter. Oh, I read I read  every word of that piece. In that piece, they. are lauding Obama for saying things like Russia is  always going to have a story. Oh, Russia's they're. always going to have escal escalatory power. Trump  says the exact same thing and all these people. By the way, Obama, who I think kind of wrecked  America, can't comes off as pretty reasonable in.

that piece, just being honest. I mean, if you read  that piece now and just like take Obama out and. just put another name in there, it's like I kind  of agree with most of this and Trump is saying. most of there's one big difference. Trump can  actually implement it and Obama couldn't really. implement it. The world order was fraying under  him. And so it is so ironic that these people who, you know, accused Trump of being like a KGB agent  or whatever that these people would would knock. Trump for saying the same thing that they were  they were paring for years. Well, they're all just.

children. Like these are not they're the people  who told you that Russia was a gas station with. nuclear weapons. People like John McCain like 95  IQ and his sad idiot daughter. I mean these are. just like not I was I've gotten along with the  daughter. I never met John McCain. She's fine. She's fine. I mean McCain was charming in his  way. I mean I love McCain actually when I when. I knew him um well but very charming guy but like  not a serious person at all. He killed the repeal. of Obamacare which is very difficult to get over.  But he wasn't serious. He's just he was just sh.

just a shallow wasp. And he was he was one of the  last of the true hawkish anti-Russia, you know, coming out of the cold war, though he was younger.  Uh just you've you just got to bomb. You just you. just got to, you know, implement your It was this  deep. I mean, I spent a lot of time talking to. the guy on the road, traveled to various countries  with him, knew him, I think, as well as I've ever. known a politician. And there was so much to like  about the guy. He just really was a charming very.

aristocratic bearing, hilarious, vulgar in a way  that I always enjoy. But if you pushed him on any. issue, like he hadn't spent 15 minutes thinking  about anything. Yeah. You know, this is something. you notice on Capitol Hill generally is there  are some people who are very intelligent and. decently well read. A lot of them though their  skill is not doing a lot of reading. You know, that's not the skill that's laid out. I went to  boarding school. I know what that is. That's like. memorize three famous quotes, throw them out like  you've read the whole book. And that was McCain,

man. He on any question, including the foreign  policy questions he was supposedly an expert. on. He knew nothing. To say Russia's a gas station  with nuclear weapons, like you're you're an idiot. This is the nation of, you know, like Toltoy.  Oh my St. Petersburg. Right. All right. There's. no city in Europe. There's certainly no state of  the United States that approaches their two main. Well, this this is what was fascinating. I mean,  that's I'm now remembering the fact and and the.

fact that you got to interview Putin. Yeah. And  when you listen to that interview, this is a man, say what you will about his yarn that he spun, it  was a very compelling yarn. He he had a view of. his own country that was a very strong view.  And I wonder, look, I Trump in his own way. tells a story about America. He hugs the flag. He  kisses the flag. He's got it really in his gut. How many American statesmen today after all these  decades of just dissolution and hatred of country,

how many of them can tell a compelling story  about what the country is, why we ought to love. the country beyond mere filial piety and where  we're going? How many of them are there? It's. hard. I mean, because the, you know, who are the  American people? That's that's the question. And. that's what really bothers me as someone who is  not a race guy. And I don't think your DNA should. determine the course of your life or the nation  you live in. I just don't I'm American. I I'm. from California. I don't feel that way. However,  all of history suggests I'm wrong because when.

Putin talks about Russia, he's talking about the  Russian people whose DNA you can map and they're. the indigenous population. He's not talking about  the Chetchnian, right? No. No. By the way, he gets. along with them really well. Yeah. Well, that's  the other thing. He's got 20% Muslim population. He's promoting Christianity, but the Muslims all  like him. Like how do you do that? Don't try that. at home. That's hard. And and it's a skill that  is I mean this is why I keep coming back to to. empire is because our country looks more like an  empire than it does like a yman republic. Russia.

certainly looks like an empire. You know, it's got  all spanning a continent. It has all these peoples. and and so on the this question which is we don't  even know who lives here. Yeah. Trump said to me. recently we think there about maybe 50 million  people here illegally. Yeah. 50 million. I mean. but who no one know the president of United States  doesn't really know. We've got facial recognition. technology, but somehow we can't know who lives  here. Yes. And so when you talk about my country. are people who you can't even visualize who they  are. Yes. And and this this gets I mean you just. said look I'm not a race guy. I'm not a race guy.  But when you I'm a sexist, not a racist. I always.

say that. No one believes me. I think about sex  all the time. Actually I But when you when you. think this what is America now? You know in 2025  there was this line where it's America's just an. idea. you know or diversity is our strength or  what all these kind of slogans from the 90s and. 2000s you think well no it's not a country is not  just an idea there is a criminal aspect but it's. not like an idea floating in outer space what  are you talking about and so there has to be a.

real grappling with okay well look a country is  also geography you know like there is no America. without the rivers for instance okay you know it's  not the rivers aren't just an idea you're speaking. to a fly fisherman now Mr. It's not a country  without trout. Uh it's not it's not a country. without the oceans. And it's it's not a country  without people. And and this this also is where. someone can just like show up from Delhi and like  start lecturing me about American values. Yes. Can't even speak American English. And no one says  anything like, "Hey son, settle down. You just got.

here. Don't start lecturing someone whose family's  been here 400 years about what America is.". then there's kind of no America actually at that  point of course and and so this is where even the. grappling even the grappling with ethnicity you  know like what we we've come out of this very. liberal period where we have been told there's no  such thing as ethnicity or race or anything like. that and except it but simultaneously it's the  most important thing all that matters is race but.

it doesn't exist and the reality is again to this  kind of via media it's it's okay it's okay when. Joe Deaggio hit a home run. It's okay that the  Italian-Americans in New York got a special little. thrill out of that. It's okay. They say that guy  kind of looks like me and he hit that home run. That's kind of that that's fine. There's nothing  wrong with that. There's nothing wrong with. recognizing that there are differences between  peoples. The the there are two simultaneous. errors which we fall into it seems actually at the  same time which is we say ethnicity means nothing.

at all whatsoever and ethnicity is totally  deterministic and means everything. And the. reality is I mean this is where our Christian  heritage Christianity which animates the whole. civilization comes in. You say no we are in a  very real way all uh children of God like in a. very real way there's only one race the human  race or whatever like the liberals like to say. there is there is that is true and also there is  vibrant diversity among peoples and that's fine to. acknowledge. God created that created different  peoples. As long as that is ordered toward.

charity, as long as a proper love of that which is  similar to one is is not ordered toward cruelty or. and is ordered within charity for the common good.  Yeah. That's called having a country. Of course, when is we're not allowed to say that now? Yeah.  I just feel like it's gotten um I don't know. They've been so tough on whites for so long. Yes,  of course. are so cruel to whites that I think. like there's a crazy backlash coming without  question. A well-deserved backlash. It's it's.

already happening. Is it? I think so. And you  know, as Tucker, you know, I'm part Sicilian, not a non-white people. A non a racially liinal  people. We Sicilians. I love Sicilians. Children. of the Mesouro. Yes. And so you you get a kind  of look at it which is um I mean even early on. I have these Wasp ancestors and I got some Irish  ancestors in there. the Italians came in a little. bit later and so there's a little little mixing of  all of Europe in there and the the the reality is.

uh in order to have a like a sense of a country  you do need to have some kind of a sense of a. common people and so to your point on the guy from  Delhi it's not even that the guy from Delhi can't. be like quite American three generations from  now but you can't you can't just like land in. a place and because you read a book about America  or because you watched a YouTube video, you just. totally get America. To to have a country is to  have a lived experience that is passed sometimes.

ineffitably, you know, without words from  generation to generation. I'm looking around your. house here. I mean, there's like pretty old stuff  and you just kind of do it. And there are habits. that are inculcated in people's and and there are  inclinations that that the American people have. observed by Toqueville back in the 19th century  that they're not even aware of that it takes some. random Frenchmen to come in and notice it. I  totally agree. You got to be very careful. I. just want to be clear since I have a million  Indian friends and actually like India a lot. as a country. You hate the Indians. You I'm like  probably the most pro Indian uh rightwinger you'll.

ever meet. But um sincerely, but it's not it's  it's not even lecturing showing up and lecturing. me about what it is to be an American. It's  showing up and attacking whites. Yeah. And boy, did you see a lot of that and not just it wasn't  just Indians, but like people would immigrants. would show up, you know, taking all these benefits  from the country and the permanent population here. and then start immediately attacking whites. Now,  they attack whites because they were encouraged. to do that by a ruling class. like they got  into Stanford schools 100% and then they get to.

Stanford and it's like oh you want to succeed you  have to attack the whites and they just they're. statused all immigrants just like want to fit  in and want to do the get the merit badges that. this society demands they get and one of those  merit badges required them to denounce whites. and I felt like that is the most destructive  thing yes that you could ever do. You know I. have a solution to this though. My solution to  this, we're always told, you know, it's all just. got to be kind of organic from the culture and the  people and that's politics is purely downstream of.

culture and whatever. Uh I have a little more of  a classical political view of that. I think people. respond to incentives. Well, that's exactly right.  When you mention these institutions, I think, and Trump is very good at this, taking beating  up Harvard, I think, was a brilliant political. attack. You see some of that in Florida taking in  some of the universities. It's happening around. the country. I'll give you a pete budget. I I  don't know Pete Buddhajitch. the fake gay guy. The I have a friend who thinks he's a fake gay or  is my gay producer was always like he's not gay.

He was with a girl like 20 minutes ago and like  he wants to be the Democratic nominee. It's like. time for a gay guy. It's playing the long game. I  mean that is that's going look well it's suffering. for your art. I'll say that. He look just cuz I  don't know him. I know a 100 Pete Buddha judges. I know this character, the kind the and he went  to the elite school and then he goes to McKenzie. and then he does the checks and I think then  finds some benited Midwestern town that he can. just like become mayor of I'm a mayor now. Talk  about the great I was talking to big Democrat.

uh figure and he said, you know, say what you will  about Pete. He's the greatest careerist we've ever. seen. You're mayor of this tiny town. You become  the secretary of transportation. But of course, but the town kind of sucks actually. He didn't do  a good job. He didn't have the college. But I've. always wanted to interview him. He's never agreed  to interview, but I'm gonna ask him like some very. specific questions about gay sex and see if he  can even answer. I doubt he even knows. Where does. Yeah. No, totally. Yeah. I don't gay dude stop.  I think about Pete Buddha Judge. If we controlled.

the universities, if we controlled the culture,  and if the incentives in the corporations and all. of the DEI offices, we can rename them. If all  the incentives were not to be like Americahating. uh gay liberal Pete Buddhajed I am convinced this  is look this is purely my gut telling me this he. would be like waving the stars in bars doing dick  like whatever incentive were there he would go to.

it and so I think this is where the the Trump  a little more muscular view of politics comes. in he says no forget about the stupid like oh  everything's just going to be organic that's never. how culture has changed we're going to go in I'm  going pummel Harvard into the dirt. I'm going to. go in. I'm going to pummel these bureaucracy, the  Kennedy Center, whatever, and I'm going to create. new incentives such that the the best and the  brightest and the most ambitious are incentivized. to like our country and do good stuff. It's  totally right. I'm at the inauguration January. 20th, sitting there and it was indoors for I can't  remember why, but I'm sitting there chatting away.

of course Laura Ingram gossiping about Fox and  all of a sudden I look up and there's Jeff Bezos. sitting like right in front of me. Yes. What's  Jeff Bezos doing here? And then all these people. firing Cook Senator Pai. Wow. Yeah, that's right.  I noticed all of a sudden after the inauguration, after the election, really, my phone starts  ringing from news networks that have never been.

interested in talking to me before. Yeah. And all  of us and you know all all of a sudden some of the. big corporations that we work with with my show  and they they're more interested in helping us. and you know they want to make sure our experience  I said oh this is what power is. Yeah. And you it. is incumbent upon statesmen on the happy occasions  that they get power through from the people that. they actually use it in a good way and make hay  while the sunshines. So we have a couple viewer. questions. We've never done this before but  you know it's the internet. I'm in. Okay. Uh,

lots of people asked this one. My producer said,  "Michael Nolles, do you miss working with Candace. Owens?" Well, you know, I I still see Candace  all the time. You know, I'm the godfather to. Candace's daughter. Actually, yeah. Yeah. I'm  I'm the godfather of Candace's daughter. I'm. uh very good friends with her husband and I, you  know, it's kind of weird for a guy to hang out. with. Yeah. We're uh have many Mayflower cigars,  you know, over over the time. And uh and I still I. don't see Candace at work obviously anymore, but I  do see her uh at church. She actually goes to the.

earlier mass than I do because she she converted.  You know, she came into the church like a year or. something ago. And in fact, I was the godfather  to her daughter before she came into the church. and then all those smells and bells just kept  pulling her in. And there was there was one time I. was invited to the baptism of their next kid and  I just couldn't make it. It was I was visiting. my grandma or something. And people kept telling  me like, "No, you should really come." And I was. like, "No, look, I mean, I love the farmer family,  but I'm uh got to go see my granny, whatever,

you know." And they kept I said, "What's this  about?" I don't know. They have like a kid every. six months, so like they'll have another one soon.  And uh but but then I found out it was because. she was being baptized and she wasn't telling  anybody. So anyway, she came in and now at least. uh now at least I get to see her at uh at mass.  So people love her. It is wild. She has actual. star quality. I She has this thing. It She could  tell me something. She could tell me something not.

only that I don't agree with, she could tell me  something about myself that she' tell me I have. blonde hair and I would I would just the whole  time I just be like, "Go on, tell me everything.". That's wild. I mean, I I was telling this off,  but I was just going to say it. I was in Oslo, Norway last week salmon fishing with my kids  and I'm coming walking back from dinner with. one of my kids in downtown Oslo and this guy goes,  "Tucker Carlson." "Yes, you know Candace Owens.". I was like, "Yes." He goes, "Tell her that I love  her." And I was like, "How famous do you have to. be where people will come up to you on the street  just because you know somebody else?" Where people.

will come up to another very famous guy to bear.  You say, "Hey, you know, hi, I'm Tucker by the. way. No, it didn't. No, I was so impressed by  it that I It didn't hurt my feelings at all. I, you know, that is unbelievable. But yes, the  main thing that he liked about me was that I. knew Candace Owens. I was like, "Wow, that that's  devotion." So, I was impressed. Very. I called. her. I said, "Wow, man, you're really at another  level. Got to start trying that at restaurants.

Can I Hey, can I get a free dessert or something?"  I know. I know. Candace, come on. Not my birthday, but um Okay, this is an interesting one. This is  a question. I think I've inadvertently led my two. sons, ages 25 and 23, to have a mindset to put off  having a family. I think I've made a mistake. How. do I convince them to hurry up, get married, and  have kids? The question, the answer that I would. or the evidence that I would need here is how old  the kids are. 23 and 25. You got Okay. 23 and 25. Hm. Yeah. It's you should get serious. You should  I mean, these days you'd be like a child groom at.

that age, but you need to start getting serious.  I guess the reason is this. I had a kid at 25. Yeah. I mean, pe people used to get married at I  have a good friend, very successful guy, though he. struggled for a long time. Six kids, got married  at 20 or 19 or something and started spitting out. kids right away. And the the way to maybe present  this to your sons is we screw up everything in. modern life. We just get everything perverted or  inverted or wrong. And we now view marriage as.

the capstone to our lives. Exactly. We say, "I've  lived now that I've lived. Now that I've had sex. with a hundred,000 people and I've made a million  dollars and I now that I've done everything, traveled all over the world, now I'm going to get  married. And that now that I have drugresistant. chlamyia, now that I have drugresistant  chlamydia, and my brain is halfmelted, now I'm going to get married. And you think, okay,  that's not what marriage is. Marriage is when two. people leave their families, come together, and  become one flesh and do something together. And. so, it's really supposed to be more like the  beginning of your life. But but here's a real.

practical reason why you shouldn't do it that  way. I married my high school sweetheart. You. married your high school sweetheart? Yes, I did.  And highly recommend it and I've seen many many. good marriages where people married their high  school sweetheart because it's like our bones, you know, you when you grow your bones are kind of  agile and malleable and they grow. Yeah. And then. they harden. Yes. And then it's it's it's really  hard when two people harden into their own ways. to mash that together. But if you're still kind of  young and a little more malleable, even, you know,

in your 20s, you're starting to really harden your  views, uh, you need you need to do that in such. a way that you're fused together. So, I mean,  to me, no, it's that's right. The notion of of. divorce. They get really rigid, too, as they get  older living alone. Yes. Get weird. So, get weird. And you I I'm entirely opposed to divorce. I would  not divorce under any circumstances. I know people. do it. I know it happens. It's a fallen world. But  it it seems to me that if you if you're if you're.

a whole set person and you marry someone and you  sign a prenup and you keep separate bank accounts. and you just you're kind of setting yourself up  to prepare for when you're just going to crack. apart cuz but if you do it a little bit younger  and you're just totally in mesh all the way, it's unthinkable. Yeah. I also think, you know,  young men especially are really concerned about. the economy which has like basically been designed  to exclude them and they feel like they're not. going to be able to succeed and provide for  their children the lives that they had from their.

parents. Just as a math question, getting married  is like it just and there's a lot of research on. this is the single most effective thing you can  do to be more successful. Yes. Yes. Of course. I. was talking to a buddy of mine even with the kids,  you know, when I had my it took us a couple years. and then we had our first kid and I said, "Oh,  I hope I hope I have enough money. I hope I Oh, you will. Yes. My friend said that that babies  are like little money bags. You just you just.

make more. You just make it work. You were Yes.  When I had my first I was working at the Weekly. Standard. Hard to believe I ever worked there,  but for Bill Crystal, I know it's so shocking, but um you know, he was a teacher of mine. We have  that. We have that in common. Bill Crystal was a. teacher of yours. I I did one of these fellowships  like a summer fellowship. He taught me uh I don't. know like Mchavelli or something. And to think now  I mean now his publications have taken shots at me. over the years. I said so and and I just think  man where did where'd you lose the plot buddy?

I don't know what h what happened. I don't know.  It's it's it's distressing but but I think he kind. of collapsed in inside as a person. Depressing. It  can happen by you have to be on guard against it. But anyway, I remember I had this editor called  Richard Star who was such a nice man and I had. this child at 25 and he goes, "Your life's going  to change." And I was like, "Everyone says that. What do you mean?" And he goes, "When you have a  child, especially when you're young, you realize. you will do whatever it takes to provide for that  child. You need to rob a [ __ ] liquor store. No.

problem." Yes. I was like, "Wow, that's so true."  It even made me not that I ever robbed any liquor. stores, but like I But you might have I might  still I when we got married, I was a little older. I was maybe 27 when we got engaged, 28 when we got  married. This my one I kind of wish we had gotten. married younger. We were kind of moving. We're  long distance. All this stuff. And it's it's all. works out in Providence. But it's it's one regret  I have. We should have got my wife says it too. We. should have got married younger and started having  kids younger. And I remember though I started my.

show after I got married or right around the time  I got married. And I thought, man, thank goodness. I'm not single in in this career in particular  because you're public. Can you imagine? you. just all you do is just like stay up late and go  drink and screw around and that's and when you're. married and you have kids, you have a sense of  purpose that you're doing things for something. Of. course. Of course. And if you're under like real  stress, if you have, you know, kind of performing. in public or whatever, any job where you're like  under pressure and you're feel like you're on a.

tight rope all the time, but if you didn't have a  wife, I don't know how you would do that. Yeah. I. I almost They all melt down. I mean, you know,  you need a wife. Yes, you do. I mean, even my. wife will, she'll sometimes say, I'll do my show,  she'll listen to my show, she go, you know, M, you. were a little bit kind of li over there. You kind  of went a little squishy. Be like, man, you're. the, you know, she's like the rock solid one. And  she she's she's the only person I'll ever let some. of my show. She gets it. She really Yeah. Yeah.  It's not She was no political nerd or anything.

like that, but she has a a very conservative  disposition. Yeah. Yeah. And she just has this. gut instinct. When when moms go right-wing boy,  they they're not [ __ ] around at all. You know, I've seen that a lot. Yeah. Members of Congress  who I respect 100% have wives who were like, "What?" No. Yes. You know what I mean? Who are  Yes. No. I can think of a couple of them. Okay. Last question. This kind of a weird one. Michael,  do you detest boomers as much as Tucker seems to?

I was born in 1951. What's the main thing I  ought to do or stop doing to help improve life. here in the United States? So, this is a boomer.  I take it. This is a boomer. Yes. Baby boom. 1946, 1964. Yeah. I think the boomers have attracted a  lot of eye, right? Rightly so. My defense of the. boomers is they came from somewhere. Yeah. They  came from somewhere. So, even I mean, you know, the our grandparents generation and they're human  beings. I don't mean to talk about them. They're. animals. No, but things went really screwy during  the boomer generation. You think? Uh you might.

have noticed and I think what it has come down to  is an ideological selfishness. I'm not even say. a lot of boomers like they have all this stress  and anxiety for their kids and the future and you. know so it's not it's not like even a personal  selfishness. It's an ideological selfishness. that says hey I'm going to you know do what you  want. Hey follow your bliss. Do what makes you. happy. And and I I would say that came from a good  place for a lot of the boomers who were a little.

hippie- dippy, whatever. I don't think that's  helpful to kids. I actually think a little bit. more clarity is better. Clarity is charity. And  I think a little bit more on the guard rails. A. little bit more of saying, "Hey son, don't just  follow your bliss." Ideological selfishness. Boy, that is I've never thought of that. That is  really smart. because it is of course it's. true that boomers which again is everybody born  between you know the end of World War II and just. before Woodstock um there are a lot of nice people  who really care about their kids and grandkids but.

they but it's ideological yes they they can't even  what are you talking about if I were to say that. right is right and wrong is wrong well I'd be that  would be I don't know authoritarian or judgmental. yes you think well you have to make judgments in  life and sometimes Sometimes parents actually do. know what's best for their kids and you just  need to I think state not have the confidence. to state that. Have the confidence to help your  kid even if it might make him angry in the short. run. Let me that's a really smart point. Let me  just end by asking you cuz I'm legit interested.

How did you get into the tobacco business? Can  I offer you one? I don't want to make I don't. want to make you smoke at 10 o'clock in the  morning. But I'm going shooting after this. I'm going to burn one of these. Okay, great. I  can't wait. I have loved cigars since I was 15, which is a little old to start uh in New York  as an Italian American, but I was, you know, totally, if I ever get rich, I'm going to start a  nicotine for the children foundation just to make. sure that they have enough. I'm serious. Charity,  you know, I mean, there's a more I was 15 and I.

never liked cigarettes. I never liked, but I loved  cigars and I a family friend gave me one when I. was 15. I really liked it. And I would go grocery  shopping in the Bronx in the Italian neighborhood. and they had these guys rolling the cigars and  I was too young to buy them so they would just. give them to me. They'd give me four a week and  I got into I smoked them. I I really So I wrote. wrote my college admission essay about how much  I loved cigars. I called it the Count of Monte. Cristo because they said write about something  you're passionate about. I'm very passionate about.

cigars. I They let you into Yale when it cigar  essay. I probably wouldn't have worked that today. Yeah. Better better than writing about my parents.  Were your parents big donors? I They were not. They safe to say they were not. And I So the story  of this company, I wanted to start that for a long. time because despite my sworthy appearance, I do  have this kind of wasp Mayflower ancestry. And I. I said I want it to be Mayflower. I want it to be  patriotic, but I don't want it to just be like, you know, I don't know, guns and fried chicken  cigars. I want it to be a little more elevated,

but and there's this paradox with the Mayflower,  which is kind of like the founding stock. On the. one hand, they're blue blood elites. on the other.  This is these are salt of the earth people rugged. weirdos booted out of England. Yeah. And I said  I like that paradox because cigars are a luxury, but they're also very accessible. You can you  can have a an amazing cigar for like $12, you. know. Yes. And uh so I said I want it to be that.  And I wanted to work with a particular company.

When I was a kid, my mother shortly before she  died gave me a box of Oliva cigars. Oliva Series. O Rausto for Christmas. We did not have a lot of  money and this was a really nice present. When she. died unexpectedly, I still had half the box and I  said, "Ah, well, this is these are special. I need. to save them for special occasions. Uh, graduate  high school, get married, first kid, that kind of. thing. Maybe I'll give some to my kids if I have  any left over." This is providential. I'm I was. trying to start the cigar company. It was kind  of tough. you know, Daily Wire was allowing me.

to kind of explore this and use the platform  to start start a cigar company. I said, "Oh, great. But what do I know? I don't know anything  about starting that." I'm backstage at a TV show. and a guy calls out to me. He says, "Hey, Nolles,  you're a cigar guy, right?" I said, "Yeah, yeah.". He's like, "Oh, yeah. I got this cigar. You got  to come by this cigar club that I'm a member of.". I said, "Oh, that's a great idea." I don't know.  He goes, "Yeah, I'll give you one of mine. It's a. it's an Oliva rebanded Olivia." I said, "Do you  know Oliva cigars?" He said, "Yeah." I said, "I. can't get in touch with them." He goes, "I'll put  you in touch. Well, that's for Judas. 15 minutes.

we have the deal for production and distribution  for a a test cigar only because of a happen stance. of business. It couldn't it basically couldn't  have worked with any other company. Uh I we go. through it. We blend. I'm blending meticulously.  I wanted to go to Nicaragua. Had a little trouble. getting into the country of Nicaragua. I'm  blending it for long distance. All this. We. finally launch it. Now, how hard is it to get  to the right blend? If you're uh obsessive,

if you're horrifically obsessive, I was such a  terrible person to work with. That's the way to. be. But you have to be because I said with those  I said, "Look, this is something I care about. I'm not really doing this primarily to make money.  I'll make money other ways." Uh I I'm doing this. cuz this is a thrill. I've wanted to do it for  15 years. And I landed on a blend, a Connecticut. blend, which is the Mayflower Dawn. It's kind  of the more mainstream one. The Mayflower Dusk, which is an Ecuador Habano rapper that's that was  really blended just for my tastes. and a double. Maduro. The Mayflower dream comes from a painting  by William Holles of the Mayflower in Plymouth.

Harbor and it's an orange sky and you you can't  tell if the sun is rising or setting on America. which I love this ambiguous painting. Is it are  we getting it tomorrow or is the light going. out? And I said that's what I want it to be. Dawn,  dusk, and dream. We get the cigars. The cigars are. made at the same factory that made the box that my  mother gave me. What a way. Yeah. How do you plan. that? Talk about providence. How do you plan that?  That's wild. Yeah. And uh you smoke them all the.

time. You smoke your own brand. Oh yes. They were  made they were actually made for my taste and they. are I say with no false modesty and true humility.  They're exquisite. And uh so we've got three lines. now. I even made the I was I was so brutal about  it. I made these little mini ones. I call them. Mayflower compacts. They're little petite coronas.  That's pretty funny. Thank you. And uh they're but. they're a premium hand rolled long filler so it's  not a cigar or something. I I I just love them and.

they they sold out immediately which good problem  to have cuz I sold like four month supply in one. day and was out of stock for Black Friday,  out of stock for Christmas. F we're picking. up production. We're now we're in retail stores.  This brings us all the way back to the top of our. conversation because one of the reasons I started  this company is I want people, especially guys, to get out in the physical world and spend time  together and speak. Best conversations I've had. in my life are over cigars. I agree. And I I want  them to do that. Not not be in their rooms, not.

be just on Zoom. I want them to be in this and to  recognize uh you know, thus passeth the glories of. the world. Crony Gloria Mundi 45 minutes you have  your conversation then it's over and you can light. another one maybe tomorrow but but uh I think it's  it's instructive uh and it's whatever people say. about the health effects of cigars I have always  found and I think this quotes uh was it George. Burns or someone that I've taken more out of  cigars than cigars have taken out I feel that way.

very very strongly about tobacco can you can you  just like start a cigar company and start selling. them do you have to go through FDA hoops or it's  it's so hard and through sheer providential uh. blessing I was able to to leaprog over a lot of  that. It still took me over a year basically to. go from beginning the deal to to launching to  get them into stores is almost impossible. If I. started because of all these stupid regulations  if I started a pot company I'd probably be in.

57 states in the country for sure. Yes. It's very  diff certain states I just can't do business in. I. wish I could. I have stores begging me for them.  I just can't. I can't. why the the regulations. are so brutal. I mean, certain places are trying  to ban smoking just like forever. Massachusetts, you know, tried to set a a a date after which you  could just never buy tobacco. So, it kept aging. with you. So, I mean, crazy crazy stuff like  that. California is awful on the regs. And so, we're uh we're trying to sneak them out as best  we can. it. Yeah, it does seem like tobacco should.

be part of the backlash. Of course, it Well, it's  the American crop first helped build the country. Washington grew it. Where did it come from? The  American South. The American Indians. And Oh, originally That's right. Yeah. It's not native  to Europe. It's native to North America. And you. know who really discovered it? It was Christopher  Columbus. I know. I read the Tyino Indians. They. would smoke them up their nose, which I I don't  think I've ever tried. But uh yes, the two things.

he took away in addition to corn, um tobacco  and syphilis. Yeah. And I don't sell syphilis. or have it. Michael Nulls, that was great, Tucker.  Thank you for that. And I really really appreciate. it. Um and it's great to see you after six years  totally vindicated. You're not the disgusting one, Michael Nolles. Thank you, Tucker. And thank  you for your help. Way was nothing. Thank you.

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