Medical Ethicist Charlie Camosy Debunks Media Lies About Abortion and Kamala’s Love for Infanticide

we're proud to announce live today. episodes 1 and two of art of the surge. that are available to watch on. tuckercarlson.com now they're the first. of a multi-part documentary series we're. going to release episodes weekly on. Wednesdays leading up to the election. we've had someone embedded with the. Trump campaign amazing footage art of. the surge available right now episodes 1. and two. [Music].

[Applause]. [Music]. [Applause]. [Music]. okay so let me let me ask you um the the. Trump campaign has and and Donald Trump. himself at at the presidential debate. has accused KLA Harris and Tim Walls of. supporting infanticide which is to.

say laws that. allow doctors to kill children post. viability and allow them to stand by as. babies born in botched abortions die and. the media and the Democratic party same. thing have pushed back ferociously on. this fact checked it um you know you're. a medical ethicist this is right at the. center of what you study for a living is. that true it's absolutely true and until.

this whole political thing got in the. way everyone knew it was true I was. doing my dissertation at Notre Dame on. neonatal bioethics and I rounded with. neonatal teams in hospitals in the. United States and Europe and everyone. knew that not only in the abortion. context you're discussing but in many. other kinds of contexts we would just. simply choose not to treat certain. children especially if they were too.

disabled and we would call it comfort. care we call it something else but. everyone knew exactly what was happening. so it's not just the abortion case far. from it it's just a matter of routine. and Nick use across the country and. around the. world okay and this is long-standing. yeah I mean for instance you could do it. in a way where you bypass the parents. it's called slow coding or show coding. where the medical team basically says. you know I'm not sure this baby is uh or.

I think this baby is too disabled right. or has will have too hard a life it's. not in this Baby's interest in living. the couple wants to do everything the. family wants to do everything we don't. agree with it and so it's a well-known. practice actually to show code or slow. code your way into getting the outcome. you want that's without the families. wait wait I'm comp wait so hospitals. kill people's kids without telling them. I mean it's a little more complex than. that the it's not what Trump. unfortunately uses the phrase when he.

talks about it in a particular trumpan. way execution right it's not as if there. is like a pillow put over their head or. a sharp object is used or even like a. poison is um administered it's more like. throwing someone away or discarding them. in a way that that keeps them. comfortable so um it's called Comfort. Care the debate over the law in. Minnesota that has Pro prompted so much. debate over this insists that the babies. be given comfort care but that's.

actually hiding what's actually going on. in these particular circumstan they're. giving comfort care because they're not. giving the typical care that others get. what is comfort care it's mostly a kind. of paliative care or a sense of trying. to keep someone um from not feeling pain. or something like this like giving them. opioids yeah or um keeping the the. temperature appropriate and that sort of. thing um in fact the former governor of. Virginia right was caught on tape. essentially or not caught on tape he. gave a radio interview saying this this.

happens all the time the baby would be. kept comfortable and then uh he said. I'll tell you what would happen the baby. kept comfortable and then we'd make a. decision together with the parents about. what exactly to do and he said this in. his interview right very matter of. factly and he was right to do so because. until recently this was not a. controversial thing or it's a. controversial thing but it's not. controversial that this goes on at. all and you're saying it goes on I mean. there's so many questions um one I. think I wasn't this happened with with. children I mean of course with the.

elderly at the request of the patient. very often Physicians stop treatment. right which strikes me as fine um I. don't you know something that I would. want I don't you know most people don't. want extraordinary treatment you know at. 90 or something um but you're saying. it's very common with children and then. you're further saying that it happens. without the parents knowledge or consent. that strikes me how is that not a crime. oh it should be a crime but it's and it.

to be clear it doesn't happen very often. right this is that is not routine the. slow coding or show coding most slow. coding coding means death right well. coding is is specifically uh coding. somebody as a particular kind of patient. so if it's full code you do everything. to save the child's life right but if. it's a different kind of code like say a. DNR right or a different kind of code. would be put in to say no we're not. going to do anything to save the person. which is totally legitimate in many. other contexts right at at the end of. life uh we might make a choice about how.

to live right and say I I want to live. the rest of my life in this very. particular way so I'm I'm I'm gonna have. a I don't want chemo something like that. um slower show coding and I'm sorry to. interrupt you but just to be clear as an. ethicist you're okay with that yeah yeah. as long as what we're saying is it's a. choice about how to live not a choice. about dying right so if I say I want to. live the rest of my life without um. chemotherapy or without other aggressive. treatments and and to use the language.

of um moral philosophy and moral. Theology and bioethics I foresee but. don't intend that death is going to be. the likely result of this or death will. be sped up as a result of this totally. fine totally legitimate centuries we've. been doing this um it's quite different. of course to say either as a person. yourself or as a medical team or as a. surrogate for another person to say uh. let's not treat you so that you die. right like it's we are aiming at your. death we were trying to kill you and the. context of abortion um.

reveals exactly what's going on here so. Tim walson company in Minnesota. specifically rewrote laws in that state. to say um yeah I know we have this. infant born alive protection act here. but we need to make it available to uh. Medical Teams and others when there's a. botched abortion to give the baby only. comfort care and let them die but we. know that it's not um foreseeing but not. intending death because there was an. abortion attempt right that was an. attempt to kill and so the attempt to. kill is transferred over into the.

newborn context and so we're we're just. doing it by Omission right we call it. Comfort Care again um but let me give. you another example how this works. sometimes uh and very often uh parents. uh are encouraged to have abortions in. these cases where where um they choose. not to right they um push back on the. medical team like if there's a uh D. syndrome diagnosis for instance. prenatally the Medical Teams this is. well documented will push them time and. time again to have abortions even very. pro-life very uh prenatal Justice.

focused parents get bombarded by Medical. Teams I've lived that you've lived it. yes and um yes with a false diagnosis. without even getting it on about me but. or my family but I know for a fact that. what you're saying is true because I've. seen it with my own eyes it's. extraordinary and what sometimes happens. uh and this again reveals what's. actually happening in in the postbirth. context uh these teams will get so. frustrated that they'll say okay we.

can't convince you to have an abortion. there's still things we can do after. birth right so if you say there was this. case I just saw recently of a child who. uh was diagnosed prenatally with. spinabifida. and uh and the medical team tried to get. the the the mom to to abort and was. unable to do so and the uh obgy said uh. okay um we can still choose not to treat. the child after birth we'll give the. child comfort care after birth now you. might be able to say in the abstract. well what EX is going on here is it more.

like foreseeing but not intending death. but you know exactly what's going on. here because the whole point they're. trying to kill the kid they're trying to. kill the kid the child is too disabled. we decide why I. mean I have thought this for you know. almost 30 years since I first saw it but. how can someone like that be allowed to. be a doctor in our country if you're. pushing a mother to to kill her child. like isn't that the opposite of your job. you would think so we we we have a lot. of good doctors who don't participate in.

these kinds of things do we have a lot. of them I I don't believe you we have a. large number um who either feel uh. neutral about this or who feel positive. about it who are who are active in it. and the the re and let me just give you. an example of how the thought process. goes I wrote an article about this for. the public discourse um called the right. to a dead baby question mark and the way. that they sort of try to justify it and. I I cite all the literature in this. article justifying this claim the way.

they justify it is they say well you. know after a certain time we would never. neglect a baby to death and call it. comfort care because we've decided that. there's a new person here that we're. saving actually who's disabled right and. um but before that time and it's for for. every uh medical team or every doctor. it'll vary um they think of it more as. um stopping an individual uh who's. disabled from coming into existence.

right now we're talking about newborn. children here or neonatal children here. and this is well documented again the. article is in the public discourse the. right to a dead baby question mark and I. cite all the all the research that shows. that this is how um this is thought of. and what's so interesting about this. Tucker is this is. what's I think if we think about history. if we think about the Pagan Greek and. Roman culture that existed before. Christianity on this came on the scene. these are the kinds of judgments that. were made.

before a Christian ethic came to. dominate in our culture in the west. because as you probably know it was. thought of as not a big deal at all in. ancient Greece and Rome to Simply. discard children that were too disabled. or were female females were too. expensive for many uh families and so. they were just discarded and it's no. surprise that as we have um re paganized. as the Christian culture has retreated. especially in medicine right secular. medicine.

is deeply deeply problematic and. dominant at the moment even in in some. context where you might not expect it to. be um we are it's no accident we're. moving towards this practice it's a. little weird of sex selective abortion. is defended by feminists which I just. find I mean I don't take feminists very. seriously but I even by their low. standards that seems hard to explain if. your job is to defend women and fight. against anyone who thinks of women as.

less valuable than men how can you not. say anything when sex selective abortion. changes the demographic mix and say the. biggest country in the world China I. don't understand that yeah I mean it's. no accident that that abortion is used. as a tool of Oppression for uh for this. in in in China and other places um it's. no accident that it was used this way in. ancient Greece and Rome um the disabled. were also uh very much um uh uh part of. the group that would have been discarded.

and just to give you a sense of how Ubi. Ubi it was before Christians came on the. scene there were systems in place where. you would um sometimes abandon your baby. in specific areas and um with the hope. that maybe somehow they would not die or. from exposure or be eaten by animals or. something but you know maybe they'd be. picked up by slavers right or sold into. prostitution or something like this even. the early church fathers said one reason. you shouldn't visit a prostitute among. the many is if could be a kind of incest.

perhaps because so many people in this. area were would be exposed and then uh. prostitutes right you might have a. family member there I got to tell you. one other case that just shows it's it's. terrible but it shows how ubiquit it. ubiquitous it was we have a ancient. papirus letter from I think it's the. year 1 AD of a migrant worker named. Hiller Rion who is writing his uh. pregnant wife Alice and he's he's in. Alexandria doing uh migrant work and. he's worried that because his buddies.

are going to go home we don't know quite. where home is but they're going to go. home and he's worried that she might um. think that he's abandoned her because. he's not going to go with him so he's. writing here saying dude I'm don't worry. I'm gonna send you the money as soon as. I get it I'm gonna stay in alexand. alexandrian and try to make some more. money by the way if you're pregnant oh. and then he says and take care of our. loved ones they already have kids um. take care of our our little one and by. the way if you're pregnant if it's a boy. keep it if it's a girl throw it out Ki. essentially that's it's it's an amazing.

letter it reveals so much about the. culture including again when you don't. have a Christian ethic that says all. human beings are equal right when it. doesn't matter how old you are it. doesn't matter how young you are how. disabled you are how expensive you are. how quote unquote burdensome you are. that vision of the good is not present. in pre-christian Pagan Greece and Rome. and increasingly it's not present in our. own rep paganized culture and it wasn't. you know present in supposedly Christian. Europe in the 30s and 40s and I just. find it so interesting that you know we.

spend a lot of time 80 years later. talking about the Nazis and obviously. the Nazis are bad everyone agrees with. that very much including me but the one. thing that we almost never mention is. that before they started rounding up. other populations the Nazis killed. hundreds of thousands about 300,000. Germans in. hospitals uh the disabled children a lot. of them had comfort care but it was. murder and we never talk about that for. some reason and it's sort of weird to. see the American Medical establishment.

which I think thinks of itself as. anti-nazi it's weird to see them Embrace. Nazi Eugenics policy CU that's exactly. what they're doing it sounds like at the. um early stages of Life yes I think it's. no accent this is defended as kind of an. extension of abortion which is a sacred. cow that apparently we find it very. difficult to ask questions about even. even just very basic critical questions. about saving lives after birth there is. a little more hope I think at the end of. life the American Medical Association. still says says um that physician.

assisted suicide uh can't be uh. consistent with any rational. understanding of what health care is. that's that's still explicitly said by. by them though it's under Fire every. year and the beginning of medical ethics. was actually the nurenberg trials or the. the secular medical ethics was was the. nurburg trials which which called out a. lot of these practices I'm aware of that. and I'm I'm grateful for the. codification of the lessons of the. second war in our medical ethics um and.

this is what you do for a living but. it's just kind of weird to see that same. medical establishment Embrace Nazi. medical ethics yeah um which they have. so does anyone say. that yeah I mean it's the as you know. the critique uh you're a Nazi is so. overused that it it sort of loses its. bite sometimes but uh well being a Nazi. means anything it means euthanizing. children who aren't fit that's right. that's exactly right and. [Music].

that sort of mentality was only possible. with the retreat of a Christian ethic. right in Nazi Germany and increasingly. as the retreat of the Christian ethic. today takes place we're finding it more. and more difficult to um to Marshall the. resources to say why we shouldn't have. very similar kinds of practices Canada. is already almost a totally lost cause. in this regard we've had it in the. Netherlands and Belgium and Switzerland. for some time many US states have. adopted this unfortunately I do think. it's interesting that some deep blue.

States out here on the East Coast have. have resisted in part because of the. disability rights Community you're. talking about Ethan Asia right right. right um so so yeah we're talking about. uh euthanasia physician assisted suicide. in fact I think both um or Maryland New. York um. Massachusetts uh Conneticut all these. states are just have resisted. well-funded attempts to try to leged. physician assistant suicide so who's.

who's funding the attempts to to kill um. who's paying for that yeah I I don't. have all the information about that but. the main activist group is a group. called compassion and. choices um formerly known as you may. know as the Hemlock Society the. charmingly named Hemlock Society you. might imagine why the board got together. and changed their name to compassion and. choices um uh but uh and they've been. successful they've been successful in. California they've been successful um in.

uh my home state of New Jersey. unfortunately who are the donors. to compassion and choices to the pro. killing that's a good question I'll I'll. tell you I don't know the answer it's. weird that they're not famous because if. you're you know. pushing the medical establishment and. the state inevitably the state because. the state really does control Health. Care to murder people or convince them. to quote kill themselves because they're. like poor or unhappy then you're you're. a monster and you should be well known I.

would think I can imagine donors not. wanting to be publicly known so maybe I. this is just pure speculation I I don't. know maybe maybe there's a place we can. look this up it'd be good to know about. these questions yeah but you know what's. what's interesting about this is that um. they are well-funded and they have um. narratives that they like uh that they. can use their well funded resources to. promote and one of those narratives is. very sympathetic narrative right like. how could any one we were just talking. at breakfast right how can anyone see.

somebody at the at the end stage of. their life where in racking pain losing. control of their bodily functions you. know like that's almost where everyone. goes right is the first. example um well because that's where. really almost everyone goes in life I. mean that is what having seen we've all. at a certain age seen people die who we. love yeah and that is what it looks like. it's unbearably painful and ugly and sad. you know it's the worst thing um. so that is a compelling argument it is.

what is not widely known though is that. it's a misleading argument because um or. Oregon for instance has had legalized. physician assisted killing since the. 90s and um never has physical pain ever. made the top five reasons people in. Oregon request physician assisted. killing the number one reason is fear of. a loss of. autonomy um also in the top five is fear. of being a burden on others of course um. you can understand why disability rights.

communities are some of the most. effective and. energetic uh resistors of these. practices because when they say things. like loss of autonomy fear of enjoyable. activities which is another loss of. enjoyable activities fear of being a bur. others disability rights Community say. um that sounds a lot like us are you. telling us that we're sort of making. this judgment that people like us maybe. have the kind of lives that should be. killed or like not worth living anymore. and I think that's actually interesting. to think about why these blue States out. out here have been successful I I I I.

think it's pretty clear actually that. the arguments made by disability rights. groups saying we matter just as much as. anybody else um have been so far. persuasive it shows that the Christian. ethic of fundamental human equality has. not totally died because again these are. populations without that Christian ethic. that would otherwise just simply be. discarded land of the free home of the. brave it is the land of the free because. the people are brave but what if they. stop being vigilant do you remember when. Ed Snowden revealed that the US.

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something about the genocide of people. with Down Syndrome um and I think they. should be ashamed of their cowardice but. that doesn't mean that there aren't. great disability rights groups well it. it's it's interesting to think about how. can we do a better job on our end as as. pro-lifers to welcome we need them at at. the fight at the beginning of Life for. prenatal Justice and neonatal Justice. now um because again it's not just. abortion these babies who are neglected. to death very often have disabilities. and were were targeted for abortion in.

the first place precisely because they. had disabilities and so I think uh you. know there seems to be some movement now. post dos um I was heartened by some of. the language that JD Vance used in a. recent debate um with with Governor. Waltz um thinking about ways to expand. the pro-life message in ways that would. be focused on social support and. broadening the message out in in in ways. that are really helpful and I think if. we continue on that track we might be. able to to to bring in some of the.

disability rights groups into the fight. for prenal justice because you're just. totally right that that it's I mean it's. it's a Mass Slaughter I think that's the. way we need to talk about it right well. how can you get up there and be like I'm. advocating for people with Down syndrome. and I'm so grateful someone is of course. and then ignore the fact that basically. they've been eliminated by prenatal. testing and then abortion they've been. targeted for killing and it succeeded. and if you run again I'm just grinding. an axe here but I wrote about them 30. years ago I've never forgotten it the.

ark uh like have you ever asked them. that we get into uh I've been part of. the pro-life movement for a very long. time now my first real job was actually. communications director for pro-life. Wisconsin back in the day um so I've. been around the movement a long time and. I've I've been aware of attempts to. reach out especially at the beginning of. Life our relationships are really solid. at the end of life really solid. beginning of Life we have this political. stuff going on that makes it very. difficult but again I think we're at. this moment.

perhaps where um it's clear something is. clearly shifting in the pro-life. movement I think um along with our. politics that would make it easier to. welcome those folks in if I can tell you. just one story to to highlight um why. this has moved me so much too it sounds. like you have a lot of stories in your. background I was giving a talk a kind of. postmortem after the 2016 election uh uh. with uh in Connecticut I think I was on. a panel discussion with that and uh I. was talking about um this very topic uh.

you know abortion and the and and the. slaughter of of disabled people U via. abortion and uh after the talk this. gentleman in his 70s um with a a guy I. later Learned was his son in his 30s. clearly had Down syndrome came up to me. and he just thanked me the the older. gentleman and said you know nobody ever. talks about this as you pointed out. nobody ever talks about thank you for. bringing it up I lost my wife you know. two years ago and all I have in my life. now is my son he's the joy of of my.

existence and you know it's so hard to. hear the kinds of things we hear about. abortion and and how it's used against. people like him in the middle of us. talking this guy who's probably in his. 30s just grabed me and hug me as hard as. ever been hugged in my entire life makes. me emotional it's yes because he feels. it too he can't really articulate it as. well but he he feels the surrounding. culture well I mean I don't you know. anytime you're around somewhat Down. syndrome at least I'll speak for myself. anytime I've been around someone with. Down Syndrome the spirit coming off that.

person is really unlike any other person. you meet I mean that's just hard to. imagine you know thinking that it's good. to get rid of people like that I mean. there's just a a kindness that it's. impossible not to notice and there. there's data now to support this people. with Down Syndrome actually rate their. lives happier than those of us who don't. have Down syndrome which is I'm not. surprised at all having spent time. around people I couldn't be less shocked.

by that and yet we have a a regime of. prenatal violence uh which which targets. them in a way that's just reprehensible. well but I'm also you know in addition. to feeling sorry for anyone who's. targeted for genocide um I also worry. about the attitudes that make that. possible and that make it mostly. unnoticed and the core underlying. attitude seems to be some people aren't. worth anything they're just objects that. can be discarded and I I don't think.

that's a good attitude at all to have. for our fellow human beings where did. that come. from well uh throughout human history um. we've seen this be the norm rather than. uh the exception right it was not great. for disabled people at all before a. judeo Christian ethic came on the scene. in the west and um with this idea that. every single human. being uh in virtue of their being a. member of the species Homo sapiens right.

a fellow human animal in a way of. speaking has exactly the same value. because that human being Bears the image. and likeness of God in precisely the. same way regardless of age regardless of. disability regardless of Burden. regardless of any accidental trait in. their very nature in the very nature of. who they are the the face of um the. image of God is is is present they have. souls we used to say people have souls. they have souls. um before that uh it was it was just a.

matter of course to consider human. beings in this way after that though we. didn't always um we didn't always live. out as Martin Luther King said the true. meding of our Creed uh and but we were. on this trajectory right we were trying. to better live out this principle of. fundamental human equality as the. Declaration uh you know says we hold. these truths to be self-evident that all. of us are created equal by God right try. to live that out more consistently. I think it's fair to say and it's.

especially true in medicine but it's I. think it's true more broadly throughout. the culture um as we've become. post-christian as we've Reagan ised at. least again within our sort of spheres. of power not necessarily with the. broader. people uh we've lost the ability to say. that all human beings are equal we've. lost the basis for sin now we do affirm. The View like equality is maybe one of. the. most U overused buzzword around right um. but I think of it almost like cut.

flowers um as an analogy you can cut the. flower off of its roots and put it in. water and it'll stay beautiful for a. little while right but everybody knows. that once you cut the flower from its. foundation from its roots it's it's. dying it's it's going to. die these ideas these foundational ideas. like fundamental human equality have. their roots in judeo Christian ethics. there's just absolutely no doubt about. it and we have cut these ideas away from. their roots and we still talk about them. right that we still even use them as.

important ideas but the issue is the. idea is dying the idea of fundamental. human equality is dying we're no longer. on the trajectory of trying to live this. idea out more. consistently we are now in a in in a. very different trajectory like people. are losing their fundamental equality. right we are thinking less about how to. do this and more about. well you know is it really being human. that matters at the end of the day maybe. it's about auton. maybe it's about rationality maybe it's.

about self-awareness maybe it's about IQ. I've heard more and more people talking. about IQ recently in ways that I find. sort of disturbing especially given what. you said about Nazi. Germany uh and so when you once you move. away from fundamental human equality. you're left with these trait X's I call. them and it's very clear that human. beings don't have those in equal. capacity right or some human beings. don't appear to have them at all right I. mean it doesn't I think it's really. obvious that IQ deter determines more. than any other Factor your material.

success in life I don't think there's. any question about that and I also think. it has a huge effect on your. interactions with the criminal justice. system I think it's a very important. predictor of your life I don't think it. has anything to do with your value so. that this is my opinion in other words I. think IQ is super important we should. talk about it okay but God doesn't care. what your IQ is it has nothing to do. with whether or not you have a soul you. have a soul because you're a human being. your soul is identical in value to mine.

you may have an IQ twice mine you may be. three times as rich as me it doesn't. matter no that matters but so just to be. clear about my view on this yeah yeah. and um if it's all right with you i'. just like to name some of the categories. of human beings that are on their way as. we've you know if we think about the. trajectory before of trying to live out. this more consistently we're now moving. in a very different direction where. people are falling out of the circle of. protection for fundamental human. equality and so we've already talked. about prenatal human beings and neonatal.

human beings as classic examples of that. in fact it's so interesting to think. about the early churches response to. ancient Greece and Rome's uh infanticide. was found in the diday which is a first. century essentially catechism which. gives us a really important insight into. how they lived and uh they they contrast. the way of life with the way of death. and say Christians need to lead the way. of life and the way of life uh is. explicitly focused on a couple of things. one don't do abortion and infanticide. and they were talked about together.

explicitly because that's how the. ancient um Pagan Greeks and Romans. thought about them when was this written. first century don't know exactly when in. the first century but first century so. it's very very old it's very very old. it's called the diday you can find it. online you can find it's got to be one. of the oldest Christian documents yes. it's one of the oldest Christian. documents um it also interestingly. contrasts the way of life with the way. of death in a way that um uh we that uh. those who are the rich and unjust judges. of the poor are part of the way of death.

and the way of life uh is explicitly. focused on one of the central messages. of Christ which is uh to see my face he. says in the poor right to see the image. my image in the poor um but okay so this. goes all the way back to to the very. earliest parts of the church right and. and now we're not just seeing this with. regard to the populations that so. perfectly mirror that newborn children. and pre prenatal human beings but now. we're seeing it with people with. catastrophic brain injuries so if I can.

just speak briefly about um brain death. um maybe not so briefly because we have. a two-hour podcast here and it's it's. somewhat complicated but I need to set. it up a little bit so so I am uh I do a. lot of work um on secular utilitarian. philosophy and I'm actually friends with. Peter singer who's a very well-known. secular utilitarian philosopher we don't. agree on many many things but I think. he's wrong and really interesting ways. and he sees he's seen and since the 70s.

he's seen what it has meant to reject a. Christian um ethic of human life and he. said very explicitly if you're. pro-choice for abortion you also need to. be pro-choice for infanticide he's right. about that just to work the other way if. we're if we're protecting babies we. should protect prenatal babies as well. but interestingly he he he says it. really wasn't abortion that um was the. first moment where we um where we. decided to say Being Human doesn't. matter it was brain death so. uh around the time of the 60s and 70s.

when a lot of lot of stuff went down. that that involved uh cultural shifts um. there was a Confluence of two uh. inventions the first was uh the. ventilator so uh a machine that helps. people breathe and um the second was uh. the transp the transplantation of vital. organs from one uh individual to another. and uh once we got the capacity to. transplant organ. as you might imagine as we have today.

huge waiting list developed right for. for for for this uh. resource and um and then the ventilator. was invented and suddenly we had people. with catastrophic brain injuries on. ventilators and um something called the. Harvard ad hoc Harvard uh committee to. determine um death or brain death uh. came up with a proposal they said uh. let's um decide that all these. individuals uh with catastrophic brain. injuries on ventilators have something. called brain death and are dead and.

therefore we can take their organs and. give them to others uh who who need them. and by the way I'm not hating an organ. donation I'm an organ donor myself uh. I'm just trying to tell the story that. both Peter Singer and I agree on. actually was that was a major turning. point in in all of this so what the dean. of Harvard Medical School said at the. time was um it sounds like you just are. redefining death in order to get more. organs we don't want to release a. document that says that's what we're. doing and so they they CH the um they. changed the document but it's it's still.

even with the edited document it's very. clear and this is historically welln. that this is what happened and so what. Peter Singer and I and others who are. aware of this history say is this is. when we first said a living uh member of. the species Homo sapiens a fellow human. being um did not count was dead. essentially did not have the same moral. status as others because guess what. Tucker um uh people in these uh in these. uh so-called brain dead States can. gestate children they can fight off.

infections if you cut into their body. they release adrenaline and their heart. rate uh speeds up there was even this. case of uh oh and by the way the just. stating children case often happens. unfortunately in very tragic cases where. a a pregnant um woman uh gets into a car. accident or something has a catastrophic. brain injury and her body is her herself. is she's able to justatee a child. despite being declared brain dead one of. my favorite all-time headlines about. this it shows the confusion we have.

about this in the culture was from the. AP it said uh brain de brain dead woman. gives birth then dies so it's just like. the full confusion on on display in one. very short headline um but maybe you. remember this case from a few years ago. ji McMath um in California she was this. African-American girl who had a surgery. go really terrible for sleep apnea had a. catastrophic brain injury in the state. of California declared her dead and uh. and her very Christian also. African-American parents said um she's.

not dead and uh the state of California. said and her medical team yes said yes. she is and by the way according to her. family's lawyer Jay's family's lawyer um. the chief of pediatric at I think it was. UC San Francisco Hospital pounded his. fists on the table and said she's dead. she's dead what is it you don't. understand she's. dead and then a few days later she got. her first period. and they managed to convince uh both the.

state of California and her medical team. to essentially allow them to transfer to. New Jersey where I live which is happens. to be the only state in the Union that. allows religious freedom for people like. ji's family to say I don't think this. individual who just got her first period. is dead and I want to take care of my. daughter and the other states don't. allow that they don't allow it they. don't allow it you what does that mean. they don't allow it it would be as if um. from their their in my view dis um.

deeply misguided view they would say. well you know you can't just say a. corpse is alive right like this is a. dead individual this is a corpse in fact. some of the medical ethics The deans of. medical ethics around the United States. reacted to this case ji McMath case. saying this is a corpse they're. animating a corpse who are these people. she's going to decompose they said why. did it make them so mad why why are they. so so many Physicians most Physicians. seem like they just love death what is.

that yeah I I don't know exactly I think. because I want to talk about veget I. know I know and I I want you but I just. keep you five different times in the. last half an hour you've made reference. to the views of doctors on these things. and each time I have the same question. which is I would hope that the default. desire for doctors would be to see. people live and and yet I have seen it. in my own life most doctors I know get.

off on death they love death that is. just my observation maybe you've got a. different one but what is that I do. think there's a a strain within. contemporary secularized. medicine that um is so ideological that. if there's. something that pushes back against their. very secularized um whatever I don't. know what to call it whatever the. opposite of pro-life is perspective Pro. death I think would be the.

opposite. um is anathema right and so why because. there and this is I I want to speak with. to Broad a brush but in many cases the. ideology is far more important than. their oath they took to protect and care. for life but you would just think like. Okay so this girl they think she's dead. but then she has her peerage she clearly. not dead wh why would you pound your. fist on the table and demand that other. people think she's dead or why would you. push parents to abort a child with Down.

Syndrome or spinal bifida both of which. are survivable and Thrive you know you. can Thrive with both of those things so. but why are they so vested and we must. kill like they're not neutral on it. that's right like what is that. well I think there would be at least two. sets of reasons in the case of uh brain. death the first one would be unique to. brain death the other one would connect. with what's called vegetative state I. think maybe offensively vegetative state. which is different I'm going to say more. about that in minute if that's all right. but with brain death I think what's. always in the background here is what.

the Harvard brain death committee was. concerned with. organs right so if if we suddenly say. that individuals with catastrophic brain. injuries are not dead and we still have. the dead donor rule that says you need. to be dead in order to donate a. non-paired vital organ like a heart say. then the number of uh of um then the. waiting list for organs just goes way. through the roof right now and this is. actually brought up there have been um.

Champions secular champions of of. attempts to to Really call brain death. or what it is a kind of fiction well. originally it was a fiction that was. just um designed to uh to put us in a. position to get better organs and more. organs um who when he gives talks uh he. routinely gets questions like you. shouldn't be talking about this you know. what's going to be the result of what. you're talking about here people are. going to die because they're not going. to get organs right that they need. they're going to die on organ waiting.

list and so don't talk about this oh. because people will die don't talk about. vax injuries because vaccines are too. important it's it's a classic. utilitarian uh perspective on these. things it but if you find yourself lying. or ignoring harm to individuals on. behalf of some imagined greater good. then you're just evil I mean I don't. really see another plausible description. of that. if one has a view that what's at bottom.

true about ethics and morality is. maximizing the greatest good for the. greatest. number we can call it evil I think in. many cases it is but that just this just. follows logically why would we get bent. out of shape about whether jii McMath is. a person or not or has human dignity or. not what really matters at the end of. the day is that we maximize good. outcomes from this situation because. that's a Nazi attitude that's literally. that's literally. the attitude that they were not ashamed. of they bragged about they wrote about.

it extensively we seem to have forgotten. all of this we remember all the lessons. about Poland and Czechoslovakia but we. missed the basic lesson which you is you. cannot treat people like objects or else. you end up committing genocide it's like. super simple right sorry no that that's. well said um I think I think another. angle into it though is this ideolog a. different kind of ideological angle. which is if we say that indiv uals who. have catastrophic brain. injuries.

um but are clearly still functioning. members of the species Homo sapiens just. like you and I are though very seriously. disabled um that has. implications uh for human dignity that. apply consistently would undermine very. foundational views including with regard. to abortion right um and this is. explicitly said so um let's talk if you. if you don't mind about a so-called. vegetative state yeah okay so if I could. sorry goad get so spun up I keep. interupting you I beg your pardon no um.

you've said three times that brain death. is a category that was um kind of. devised it's really almost like a. marketing tool in order to increase the. supply of organs um but what is brain. death exactly when it's explained to. Layman like me it's they're flatlining. we're doing you know we're measuring. brain activity and there's none is that. real yeah so um part of the problem here. is there really isn't a good way to test.

for what's called whole brain death um. in part because and this was actually. after the Harvard um uh report came out. something called the uniform commission. which is a nonprofit group that has. surprisingly a lot of power to propose. um uh uniform language for States across. the country um without federal law to. sort of make sure they're basically on. the same page with regard to legislation. so there wouldn't be. like one kind of brain death laws in. California and a different kind in in.

New York and so I think it was 1981. certainly the early ' 80s they proposed. language that basically mirrored the. recommendations of the Harvard brain. death commission which said brain death. which means death of the whole brain. including the brain stem is death. and that's fine you could say that as a. thing but then we have to find ways to. determine that and there's to measure to. see if it's true see if it's true and um. most the ways especially to determine. whether there's brain stem activity like.

in the very center of the brain um it's. just super super difficult there's a. there's a big debate right now in my. world about whether the hypothalamus. which controls a lot of different things. but is this sort of tiny organ um or. part of the inner part of the um brain. stem um there's all sorts of debates now. about how precisely to test for whether. the hypothalamus is still alive and some. people will say well who cares whether. hypothalamus is still alive other people. will say well no we got to determine. whether the whole bre brain is that or. not and meanwhile we got this individual. regardless of what's Happening Here.

who's fighting off infections infections. maybe just dating a child right maybe. reaching their first period and so I I. don't so anyway to answer question would. be possible if the brain was dead well. this is an interesting question these I. think the the push for organs the. connection to organs really pushed us. through to determine that uh people were. dead who had dead brains uh too quickly. I think we just sort of said well that. sounds right especially you know in the. developed West I think in a I think. therefore I am sort of inspired world.

that's focused on the head I wonder if. we don't too quickly just assume that. these things are controlled by our brain. one of the interesting things I like to. point out um or I think it's interesting. I hope you and your viewers think it's. interesting um when the ancient. Egyptians would uh mummify somebody you. know what they did with the brain no. they threw it out they thought it cooled. the blood now what what would what would. a culture have to be thinking about.

themselves right to think that the brain. is something you're really not going to. need in the afterlife it just cools the. blood it's sort of this thing that you. don't really you won't really need as. opposed to us you really sort of Imagine. ourselves like I I'm I'm raised in this. culture I kind of imagine myself inside. my head here all these thought. experiments in my world Imagine like. what if you had your brain in a vat on. Mars right would that be you right in in. in a in that vat like if we could put it. in in a tub of nutrients and give it El. El shocks um we we talk about uh in this.

current transhumanism moment what if we. could like do this modeling of your. brain's information and upload it to the. cloud and then like download it into a. robot or something these are questions. that transhumanists are really asking. right now um very serious people are. asking these questions but I think it's. because we sort of just imagine. ourselves as this kind of uh creature. that thinks of ourselves well maybe we. just are our brains I I want to push. back on that I want to say we are um. insold bodies right we are our bodies.

and that we were our we were who we were. before we had our brains right. prenatally we were who we were before we. had brains and there's some evidence. though it still needs to be explored. that especially young people Tucker. can uh have other parts of their body. take over for the functions of the. brains um in a kind of a really. interesting plasticity of the body U I. think some people have speculated I'm. wait what so so it's no accident that a. lot of these cases these so-called brain. death cases are um children right so.

there's been some speculation some. informed speculation that says well you. know what these children have. um the ability to have other parts of. their bodies take over for their brains. when their brains are destroyed perhaps. their spinal cord perhaps some other way. of thinking about this the body as you. know is an incredibly mysterious thing. and um and by the way we still have not. found the place where Consciousness. exists in our brain maybe you've heard.

about this for for now for decades we've. been exploring the brain where is the. Consciousness where is the Consciousness. is it here is in this part of the brain. is it here it's nowhere nobody can find. any seat of Consciousness in the brain. to the point where some philosophers of. mind like Daniel Dennett have said you. know what maybe Consciousness is an. illusion because it must be in the brain. Consciousness must be part of the brain. and and that I that that is such a. revealing claim because it's an absurd. claim right it's an absurd claim right. and it's also a non-scientific claim I.

mean the basis of science is inquiry. yeah and taking your preconceptions and. setting them aside and trying to see. things if I if I know for a fact my car. keys are in the kitchen I'm never going. to find them in my bedroom that's right. so so why why would you start with that. assumption I I mean I agree with your. critique I think it's because we are so. in especially in the developed West. focusing on rationality I again I'm a. the contan sort of I think therefore I. am cojito erum I'm a thinking thing. that's not a Christian vision of the.

human person which we are not thinking. things we are in so bodies right and we. can have insold living bodies with a. very seriously damaged brain perhaps a. fully Dead brain and what's so. interesting again about children is it. looks like the spinal cord can maybe. take over for some of what the brain did. and we we know that we're conscious. beings right that's that's a um that's. just a brute fact about us and we also. know that at least so far after many. decades of trying we can't find uh. Consciousness in the brain anywhere and. so that suggests to me anyway that that.

Consciousness is a product of something. else right it's not a product of the. brain most likely it's probably a. product of some there are actually some. philosophers of Mind secular ones who. say it's probably the product of like. our whole bodies holistically considered. in relationship with each other in our. environment I don't fully understand. some of those arguments but at the very. least I think we need to expand this. idea that we're more than just our. brains well and also at the very least I. think we need to approach medicine and. science with renewed humility yes if we.

don't even know where Consciousness. resides self-awareness as people which. is the whole you know that's that's the. main that's what makes the brain. different from the cord I would. argue actually um or we thought made it. different then we don't know squat and. why don't I feel like you're wiser when. you concede that rather than bounding. forward with the false pretense that. you're all knowing like why don't we. admit that it helps to believe in God. why not force doctors to admit that at. gunpoint actually like why how can you.

get a medical license if you won't admit. that doctor's shots fired right no no. I'm sure I don't mean Lally why don't. force that I I think it helps to have a. context in which um there is a God right. who is all knowing and who in whom. ultimate truth resides and it's not from. you right it's not up to us it's not I. agree but I mean I don't know most of my. my life I haven't spent thinking about. God I do now but I mean most of my life.

I didn't yeah but I don't know just. trying to be honest with myself it was. always pretty clear to me that I didn't. really know anything and that nobody. does and if you're if you don't know. that then you're. dangerous yeah this is just pure. speculation I I guess I'm just trying to. especially now that I teach at a medical. school and I've I've been in Academia. for now almost two decades those kind of. um uh humble um sort of um yeah humble.

approaches um are not rewarded in in. these structures right in these systems. what is rewarded is saying I've got the. answer right or I'm on my way to finding. the answer I've got this new piece of. information about this um that's one of. the reasons I think that so many. theologians um at least in my world have. reacted negatively to this uh sort of. publish or perish come up with new ideas. constantly. sort of a model of higher education.

because boy oh boy uh if we're. truly uh exhibiting the virtue of. humility in the way you suggest we need. to make far fewer claims about the kinds. of things that are that we do um. precisely because we need to be start. with the virtue of humility first and. right and in a you know in a system that. actually wanted to expand knowledge and. perpetuate it pass it on there would be. much more reading and much less writing. that's right much more listening much.

less. talking and it seems the. opposite that's absolutely true there's. a there's a tremendous amount of um. pressure put on academics and and. including those in academic medicine to. just publish your ass off right and just. get paper after paper out there and we. have as you know a replication crisis. now in part because of this um will you. explain for people don't follow what. that is so um in part but not only. because of the the intense pressure on.

academics and especially academic. medicine to advance one's career through. Publications uh there's been a real um. lack of humility in sort of sitting with. data and books and. studies uh and and an attempt to sort of. just push things out and get your name. out there and get your Publications out. there um and then when people come. behind them and it's actually more more. difficult for people to come behind them. because there's not a lot of Glory in.

either confirming what somebody's. already published or um there's some. glory in finding that they they were. wrong about it but um not a lot of. people spend a lot of time trying to. confirm um replicate studies but when. they do we now have found a replication. crisis that a lot of these but. replication is not just like a virtue. it's prerequisite for science that's. right it's a basic scientific precept if. you're going to make a claim in order. for us to declare it true it has to be. replicated. that's right and it's a deep and. foundational problem that especially um.

in areas which are ideologically charged. let's say um the the replication crisis. is particularly profound so it's not. just it's not just about um publish or. perish get a ton of Articles out there. for your to advance your career it's. also to get the right kind of Articles. out there the ones that say the right. things that have the right conclusions. about some of the issues we've been. discussing so far on the show right. these are politically charged things and. um in order to get it published in the. best journals U you probably need to.

have the the quote unquote right answer. as. well that seems like total. [Music]. corruption it's there's. corruption I mean there's no there's. absolutely no doubt about it I mean I. experienced this even in my own world of. bioethics where you just sort of know. what journals um you need to submit to. if you have a particular sort of. argument and a sort of conclusion you. say well you know I could submit there. but it's never going to be published. there doesn't matter how good the.

argument is it doesn't really matter um. whether I've done good research or or or. have adequately investigated this and. I'm making very tight arguments I have. the wrong conclusion for that journal. and so you submit it to a different. Journal right and or you don't submit it. at all or you submit it to an. online um uh journal or something that. that L might actually get read by people. just submit it to Twitter yeah I mean. that's that's increasingly where a lot. of this is headed that Twitter has. actually been one of the places where. we've been able to most clearly see the.

replication crisis. right I was half joking but what do you. mean well I mean so many of these things. before Twitter and before social media. happened on the down low right they. would just be only the Specialists would. sort of know like oh so and so their. article got retracted or like so and so. followed behind them and wasn't able to. replicate their work or you know. whatever now as soon as that happens. happily there's a place where you can go. and see people saying hey look this this. data was problematic this problem this. data was faulty and there's public.

pressure in fact to then have the. journal address that and say well maybe. this you know we need to have a note. here or something like that and address. the problem so that kind of transparency. which is only just a few years old now. um I think we've yet to see the end. result of. that so I'm sorry back to the yeah topic. that you were explaining before I once. again so rudely sidetracked the. conversation um which was brain death. and a persistent vegetative state right.

so when we left you were explaining I. think that there is no way or. universally agreed upon way to measure. whether or not a brain is dead we're I. think that's right we're trying to get. ways for instance to do a better job. testing for hypothalamic function for. instance and brain stem function but but. actually one of the difficulties that is. pushing us um in ways that I find pretty. disturbing about declaring somebody. brain dead that is a lot of people are. sort of throwing up their hands and say. it's it's actually pretty arbitrary how.

we test like who cares whether we can. test for hypothe the function of the. hypothalamus who cares actually how much. of the brain is dead they're they're. they're not the person they ever will be. again or something like this so there is. um there is something in most people. that kind of agrees with that though. they don't want the themselves or their. loved ones living on a. ventilator and I think that's fair to. say I'm that's right uh and getting back. to one of our earlier discussions um.

it's perfectly legitimate to take. somebody off a ventilator as long as one. is not aiming at their own death right. as long as it's a choice about how to. live if somebody says to me and and uh. you know my parents a friend spouse. listen Charlie I I I would not want to. be on a ventilator so can you make sure. I'm not living on a ventilator it's not. that I want to die in any particular. moment I just don't want to live my life. that way yes um that's again to use the. more fancy language that's foreseen but. not intending one's death but making a. choice about how to live rather than a. choice to die and we do that all the.

time right even the food we eat is as. your show has hopefully pointed out is. maybe a choice how to live we can. foresee if we eat or behave or exercise. a certain way we these have certain. outcomes right it's a choice about how. to live not a choice about um how to die. so that's different from saying quite. different from saying um because you're. on a ventilator and you don't have the. requisite brain activity you're dead. right you're dead that's quite different. and so we can perfectly say and we. should say and let me make this clear if. I haven't already we don't need to keep.

uh people alive indefinitely in fact. this is not at all a Christian ethic I. mean we just look look up at Christ on. the cross it's pretty obvious you don't. need to do everything to save your life. right if we're imitating Christ the. early uh the church's Martyrs um also. give a great great example of this it's. it can be an it can be very clear. example of idolatry in fact to just. pursue life extended life agree um so so. I hope I'm making it clear that that's. not what I'm saying that that we have to. do everything we should not do.

everything we don't make an idol out of. life at the same time we don't tell. oursel silly bedtime stories about. individuals who justatee children or get. their first period as being dead do you. remember when Democrats used to refer to. abortion as something that should be. safe legal and rare well they've changed. their view on that it went from a right. to a Sacrament and KLA Harris is. celebrating it at full volume she was. the first vice president to visit an. abortion Mill and then the Democratic. National Convention offered abortions on.

demand basically right outside the. convention hall as the publication first. things reported Tim Walls who's running. with Harris supports the right to kill. babies after birth to infanticide and. that's true despite what the fact. Checkers may tell you and it's also evil. the media are calling this the abortion. election you shouldn't sit by without. registering your position on it this. isn't the pro-choice movement you may. remember from 30 years ago this is.

something much darker and that's why we. have joined forces with pre-born they're. a sponsor of the show and of our. speaking tour to do something about it's. the largest pro-life organization in the. United States and they are doing what. they should do which is speaking up. against this atrocity killing babies. after birth no one seems to have The. Bravery to call that wrong which it is. but pre-born is calling it out their. works of clinics are positioned in the. highest abortion areas in the country. and they've rescued 300,000 babies when.

a woman considering an abortion searches. to Ender baby's life pre-born is there. the power of ultrasound combined with. the love of God doubles the baby's. chance of being born a single ultrasound. cost 28 bucks five ultrasounds are 140. bucks giving women the information they. need to make the decision that many of. them actually want to make to have a. baby any gift will and all gifts are tax. deductible to donate securely go to. pre-born dcom Tucker or call pound 250.

on your phone and when asked use the. word baby yeah and I think we should I. agree with everything you've said um I. would never want to be an a ventilator I. mean I'm 55 my kids are grown I'm you. know whatever I have no reason to want a. prolong life to that extent at all and I. think it's degrading and I would hate it. so um I'm definitely in the they do not. resuscitate side of this argument and. that we the ethicist but tell me if. that's immoral no you're perfectly.

legitimate but I do think we should. really care about whether a person is. alive or dead like I do think we should. fret about these questions because every. life has intrinsic value and again if. you treat people like objects you're. going to wind up murdering millions of. them because we've seen that again and. again so to the question of organ. donation and quote harvesting organs. republ Ive phrase but I think is still. used right harvesting yeah um and it's.

repulsive because it treats people like. Farmland you know they just like a. medium in which this thing grows This. Heart liver kidney I don't like that um. at all but it raises the question are. people from whom organs are quote. harvested still. alive I think these are deep questions. we need to ask Tucker and I'm giving a. talk at the uh Seminary where I teach. next week which is um essentially should. Catholics be be organ donors precisely. in light of these questions again I'm an.

organ donor I have people in my life who. are walking around right now because of. organ donation uh it's an incredibly. important thing but again we should not. be telling ourselves false stories about. who is alive and who is dead um just. because we want more organs that was the. foundational mistake of so it sounds. like we're harvesting organs taking. organs from living people if brain death. is not death then that's definitely what. we're doing do you think we're doing. that yeah. yeah okay so that's kind of heavy it's. really heavy it's really heavy I'm sure.

you're going to be yelled at for saying. that cuz like how dare you get in the. way of progress but and let me say it. for a third time I'm an organ donor I. support organ donation yes um I also. support telling the truth about whether. people are alive or dead and and to get. back to the original reason for bringing. this up Peter Singer and I both agree. that it was this foundational place. where we said an obviously living human. being no longer counts as a legal person. and before we can take their organs that. was the foundational shift where we. where we moved away from fundamental.

human equality and we moved it to. something. else and then we slid into persistent. vegetative state you probably remember. the Terry shyo case very well very well. um Terry shyo for your listeners who. aren't aware was uh a woman who also. undergo underwent a catastrophic uh. brain injury um due to an eating. disorder as I. recall and her husband and her family um. disagreed about what should be done to. be clear persistent so-called vegetative. state no person no human beings a. vegetable but that's just sort of the.

language we use um or have used it's. changing now but uh she did not have. brain death she was she had other parts. a large part of her brain had been. fundamentally compromised but she had. sleep and wake cycles and she responded. there's an amazing video online you can. watch of her responding to music. Somebody plays music she just like sort. of leans over and sort of makes a noise. that sort of almost Smiles um people. people who were there like her parents. said they responded to her it was a huge. fight you remember it could sort of.

engulf the nation in the early part of. the this Millennium early. a anyway um it's interesting her her I. think nefarious husband won that battle. and they uh they uh starved her and. dehydrated her to death um after. declaring essentially that she was no. longer there in fact if you're if you if. anybody would challenge me on this I. challenge them to look at the gravestone. that um her husband created for her it. says that um on the date of her.

catastrophic brain injury that she. departed this Earth I think it was 1990. he uses the phrase departed this Earth. and then in the I think it was 2003 when. they um dehydrated her to death um it. says she was at peace and so when I give. talks on this topic I often start with. that um gravestone as a really. indicative um uh important um insight. into what we are doing here what we are. saying is this.

individual has departed this Earth as a. person and yet can leave behind somehow. a body that is responding to music has. sleep awake Cycles all the things now. even since that time Tucker maybe you. are or you aren't aware of this there's. been Research into people who've been. lumped into this category of vegetative. state um Joe fins who's a secular um. bioeth thesis wrote a great book called. rights come to mind mind if listeners. want to explore it we now know that a. significant percentage of people in a.

vegetative a so-called vegetative state. are actually conscious they've done um. scans of their brains. fmri scans and they ask them yes or no. questions with yes being imagine you're. playing tennis and and no being uh read. a book in your room and they answer by. by what parts of their brain light up. correctly they answer these yes or no. yes or no questions correctly we've. further learned that with the right kind. of. therapies uh Joe fins points out in this. book you can actually prove that more.

and more either they're they weren't. conscious before or um and then they. become conscious because of the therapy. or they were conscious the whole time. and the therapies end up showing that. that they that they give them. opportunity to in fact he tells this. amazing story of this neurologist who. was working on a patient and suddenly he. realized she was blinking and trying to. communicate with her through her. blinking uh just an extraordinary story. um but yet so many people have this idea. that uh that uh Terry sho's husband have.

which is like people who are in a. vegetative state have departed this. Earth despite this human body that is. very clearly here I see that as the sort. of Next Step from brain death to say. well you know and that's why some people. aren't too concerned about whether the. hypothalmus is really functioning or not. because who cares at the end of so it's. the concern that I'm concerned about or. the lack of concern I mean I you know. these are all emotional subjects for. people particularly the end of life. stuff cuz everyone by middle age has. seen it with a loved one. and it's so sad and you imagine yourself. in that position you think I don't want. this for myself I mean I understand all.

of that I'm not judging anybody but I. but the core idea is so important that. all of us have identical moral value. right um because without it Society. becomes really dark and evil that's. right not just in the way we treat the. weak in hospice or in you know neonatal. care but in the way that we treat like. everybody the way our economy is. structured so when I was a kid I grew up.

in a rich World rich people had a sense. of nobless obl like we're fortunate that. was the word people used but there are. good people who are not fortunate and we. should feel at the very least bad about. that we're not Gods CU we're rich like. that was a I mean I know I was there. that was a prevalent feeling but it's. totally absent you think Larry fin. thinks that like poor people are as good. as him no he's like a disgusting money. worshipper who thinks he's better than. poor people and they all think that it's.

not just Larry Fink though he's. obviously genuinely repulsive but. they're all that way that's right and. that that's a big change is it not am I. imagining this well this gets back for. me anyway back to the diday right. because when they contrasted the way of. life with the way of death they weren't. just interested in what you might call. today classical bioethics issues of. abortion and fantasy they were. interested in the what you just. described right yeah the rest of life. from birth till death like there's a lot. of years in there there the rich and. unjust uh judges of the poor were named. explicitly in Decay as part of the way.

of Death part of the way of death and. the all the early church fathers Tucker. thought about abandoning the poor as. akin to indirect homicide right and you. owe the poor um from your substance. actually and you put your salvation in. Peril if you don't give from your. substance word because you they deserve. it it's owed them as a matter of natural. right if you have too much you owe it to. them and uh this isn't something that's. made up it comes right out of sacred SC. Jesus couldn't be more clear about this. that culture was still alive when I was. a kid like I remember that very well I.

remember people saying that and I. remember them acting like it was true. and these are not even faithful. Christians that I grew up around at all. but there was this feeling you had a. moral obligation to help people beneath. you not to scoff at them not to try and. put their presidential candidate in. prison but to listen to them and help. them that's all gone it's gone I mean. just get there U Back in the Day in. in I think it was uh medieval. practice um rich people would routinely. ask um uh invite the the poor Beggars.

outside the cathedral to pray for their. loved ones at their funeral because they. would think these people bear bear the. face of Christ in a special way and I. better get well that's taken directly of. course from a story of the New Testament. yeah yeah and uh and that's what I I've. loved so much about um this kind of. shift that we've seen um I don't know if. it's on the right or that's even their. way to describe it today uh you've been. an important leader I think in this.

shift for for conservatives for people. who are more traditional to say we don't. need to choose actually between uh you. know more traditional pro-life um ideas. and human dignity and focusing on um. giving the poor what they are owed. giving the most vulnerable um social. classes what they are owed in fact not. only do we not have to choose between. them it's part of the same ethic it's. part of the same vision as part of the. same seen individuals as Not Mere things. to be discarded but as fellow image.

bearers exactly the same as I am in in. value totally and and again to go back. to um the debate uh uh that that the. vice presidential candidates had. recently it was so heartening for me to. hear JD Vance talk about both to say. like yeah we got some challenges right. now with prenatal Justice and we have to. we have to rearn trust but we don't need. to choose between trying to protect. babies. in Udo and pre neonatally now and.

supporting um very uh poor women and. families uh who feel pushed often into. contexts where they um have a desperate. situation in front of them and they. don't know what else to do and so to. have someone like him be so public about. saying we're going to do both of these. things together we're going to pursue. prenatal Justice and we're going to. pursue economic Justice for for for. women and families who are in these. difficult circumstances what a beautiful. thing if that if that takes fire if that. takes um if that takes hold um I am just.

so excited about what that could mean. because in in this is something I. haven't really emphasized I want to make. sure I emphasize this Tucker in so many. of these contexts that we've been. discussing this the push away from. fundamental human equality has been um. in part a a a a question of resources a. question of consumerism a question of. allocation of of resources so again with. brain death what pushed it organs right.

so many people thought Terry shivo why. would we put resources into carrying for. why would anybody put Joe Finn says hey. I'm trying to tell people you can help. people in these states and we can. actually bring them back and and let's. get on the horn here and let's figure. out how to do this and he's had crickets. from his colleagues because we've got. Wars to fund we got lots of things that. people we have a lot of wars and I have. to say that's the last and I will get. off my soap box but that is the last big. effect of this attitude change is the. callousness that you see displayed.

everywhere on the right a lot and. universally on the left now about the. killing of other people it's like I. don't know if you're in a war with. somebody and it's a just War maybe you. have to kill people but you should never. gloat over it you should never be happy. or Cavalier about the deaths. particularly of like huge civilian. populations a million people in Iraq and. no one has obviously no one has gone to. prison lots of people should go to. prison for it no one ever will but we. should at least say that's really bad. that's like a million human beings or.

you know what's going on in the Middle. East now I mean half the right the whole. daily wire every day they're so excited. about all these people getting killed. and it's like there's not one person who. stands up and says look I you know I'm. not for this or that group these people. are terrorists that's all fine I get all. that I'm not even contesting it but if. civilians get killed non-combatants get. killed we should feel bad about that I. don't understand and and if we don't. feel bad about that. that suggests a a Darkness that's really. scary and it's no surprise that the same.

people who are thrilled when giant bombs. drop on apartment blocks those people. have I think really dark attitudes about. Americans who say die of fental ODS or. find their towns invaded by you know. people who shouldn't be here whatever. victims of ground they don't care. because they don't care about other. people actually that's the cons that's. the theme that connects those two it. connects all of this it's oh I couldn't. and I'm thinking of a couple leaders on. the so-called right they're not.

conservative in any sense that I. recognize at all um who were like this. and I just I just I think to myself I. can't believe I'm in the same category. with these people I have nothing in. common with them I'm never going to. celebrate someone's death ever and why. would you and it's wrong sorry I was and. what a be you see this oh yeah and by. the way this is again I hate to keep. coming back to this but maybe I'll pull. my moral Theologian card one more time. this is just Jesus and the gospels and.

the early church again right this is. this. anti-war uh swords into plowshares turn. the other cheek love your enemies. Augustine thought it was so important to. love your enemies that he he was not a. pacifist but he said if you're going to. kill your enemies you got to do it out. of love for your enemies well I agree. with that or at least it should be. accompanied by guilt and shame yes I've. done all kinds of bad things in my life. I'm sure I'll do more unfortunately but. my only defense would be I I think I. felt guilt and shame probably not enough. like you should feel.

bad and I even I'm probably make myself. super unpopular for saying this but I. remember when Osama Bin Laden got shot. to death and I hated Osama bin Laden. killed a friend of mine actually um I'm. not for some Bin Laden but I thought you. know we should just have re when someone. dies we should have reverence for death. itself I mean we can be happy that. someone who is attacking us is gone and. the threat is gone I think that's wor. celebrating but we should never feel. Glee watching a human.

soul be extinguished I I just don't I. think that's a really ugly Habit to get. into and it diminishes us and turns us. into monsters it turns us into Osama Bin. Laden type people and I didn't have the. balls to say this at the time but I. remember thinking I'm not into. celebrating some guy an unarmed man. getting shot in the face I don't care if. it's Osan Bin Laden the guy I like. least but that's precisely okay I. probably shouldn't even have said that. but I felt that at the time like it. sounds like you're talking about trying.

to find a way to love your enemy I mean. look I don't think a country can I mean. could there really be a truly Christian. country that loved its enemies maybe we. get invaded the first day I don't know. I'm not a Statesman or a theologian so I. don't have to make these but I just. think at the level of the individual the. human being we should be on guard for. the natural impulse to treat other. people as objects and to worship. death I just think it's important not to. worship death I just I don't know I mean.

all of us have it in ourselves how many. videos have I seen on the internet of. someone you know a robber getting shot. to death at a 7-Eleven and I'm like you. go shoot that robber like I get it I. understand that impulse it's very human. but it's ugly and we should fight. against it that's. right that's right and uh and again what. a beautiful image of human dignity an. image of resisting a throwaway. culture that would combine all these.

things together to see them not as. dichotomous or even strange but of. course you would be for anti-war of. course you would be for justice for U. impoverished and middle- class. populations who are under siege of. course you would be uh for dis. disability rights of course you would be. anti-abortion of course you would be. anti- infanticide and of course you. would be anti- euthanasia physician. assistant clink cuz it's all part of the. same vision and not throwing away old. people and putting them in some super. depressing facility I don't know the.

whole. thing I don't think. there's any. surprise when I look at how little our. leaders care about Americans they just. don't care they step over the bodies of. drug addicts on the way to go vote to. fund the Ukraine war like those two. thing those two facts are connected yeah. I think if you don't care about people. you will mistreat them and the last. category you should have ruling over you.

is people who don't care about other. people like that oh man like keep them. away from power right can I can I say. one thing about older people here in. light in light of this um especially. those who are. um I mean we're in the midst we're in. the very early stages of a dementia. crisis as you know and um what is that. can you be more specif sure so. um so we already don't care properly for. reasons you just suggested uh for people. with um moderate and later stage.

dementia essentially we um shuffle them. off into uh so-called Care Homes um and. and really uh what the New York Times. had this very interesting expose about. how many of them are treated and. essentially many of them a high. percentage because they're sort of. difficult to take care of in some. context yeah um are given antis. psychotic drugs not because they have. any psychosis but is essentially a way. of keeping them more docile. in part because we don't put enough. resources into caring for them and I. don't know about you Tucker but when I. talk to immigrants about how we treat.

our elderly and those um who have. dementia they are shocked they are. shocked that we put them away in the way. that we do we literally throw them away. into into a room until they die and. we're this is what we're doing now in. the next 20 years unless the mean. siblings get what they want in terms of. treating type 3 diabetes with the the. number of people with uh later stage. dementia is going to double in 30 years. is going to Triple in 30 years Tucker. what are we going to do with three times. the number of people with dementia are.

we going to adequately care for them are. we going to find new ways to help them. or are we going to slouch towards. physici assisted killing as we done. we're going to kill them we're going to. kill them we're going to do what Canada. is doing that's right and so that that's. that's the next um in a book I wrote um. called losing our dignity how. secularized medicine is undermining. fundamental human equality I finished. the last three chapters by saying um. this is the next shoe to drop in in our. loss of fundamental equality we're going. to end up saying that individuals who've.

lost their rationality and self-a. awareness at the end of life no longer. count as persons just as we said it. about just as we say it about prenatal. and neonatal children just as we say it. about those in a so-called vegetative. state just as we say it about those in a. so-called brain dead State uh Canada is. already saying it about individuals um. at the end of life with with later stage. dementia and we're g unless we can have. a recovery of. uh the concept of fundamental human. equality and this I hope you don't mind. me asking you this question the only.

hope I really have that we don't have a. dementia crisis along lines we suggest. is if there's a kind of Revival a kind. of recovery of the kinds of um the the. vision of human dignity fundamental. equality that we've been talking about. here um you've spent the last uh month. or so um traveling around the country. I've heard you say. you've been I don't know if the puty. words your mouth here but rejuvenated or. you have some sort of really positive.

experience as a result of this do you. think you know I'm isolated in Academia. in a lot of ways um do you think we can. have a kind of Revival in this country. that could recapture a vision of human. dignity that would cause us to. say yes Grandpa dad my neighbor he's. doesn't know his name he doesn't know. his wife's name but he matters just the. same as anyone else and we are going to. rearrange Our Lives to care for him in.

his final Journey on this Earth or do. you think that ship has sailed like um. we've just jettisoned the cut flowers. are dying um there's no way to reattach. them to the roots and we just have to F. find a way to work through it somehow I. mean the you know one of the reasons. that immigrants can't believe how we. treat our elderly is because they have. intact family and we don't yeah right so. it's pretty hard um when you have a lot. of you know you have a lot of elderly.

without any family actually way more. than any other time in our history. um this is just one among countless. issues that every person deals with. every single day that turn on how we see. each other do we see other human beings. as fellow human beings as people with. Souls um whose lives inherently matter. whether we like them or the life they're. living or not it's kind of not up to us.

how do we see ourselves do we understand. ourselves. as you know as subjects to a greater. Authority not a government Authority but. Authority above that um or do we see. ourselves as Gods I mean these are all. like basic questions. uh and I and I think the way that we. understand all of these things depends. on our core understanding of who we are. and you know how much power we have um. like do you think do you really believe. you have the right to kill somebody. except in self-defense I don't where do.

we get that idea only God has that power. I will just say this here's what I. believe is happening I think the last 80. years really since we dropped um that. second bomb on Nagasaki have been an. anomaly in human history and I think. because of these profound technological. very rapid technological advances people. have lost. context and lost perspective on. themselves and and I think um they think. they're God and the result has been a.

pretty Hollow culture it's just based on. buying crap and sensual pleasure and I. don't think that you I'm not against. buying crap or sensual pleasure I've. engaged them both quite quite ardly but. I don't think in the end they satisfy. right they don't it is like eating. Snickers bars which I've also done a lot. of and they just don't fill you up and I. do think that there's a. a recognition of that among almost every. single person I know and the result is.

you know a spiritual yearning that's. becoming explicit and what that becomes. I have no idea I'm terrible at. predictions but it is a kind of Revival. underway there's no question about it. right now and that will change people's. attitudes like you're not going to. change you know one of the things I've. learned from covering politics for you. know more than 30 years is that we're. coming at the story at the very end like. if there's a real debate over a law then. that means that or even if you get a law. attitudes have changed on the ground.

like. fundamentally and. um you know I I think people's attitudes. are changing back I do think and with. the rise of AI and transhumanism and. phenomenon that are really designed to. degrade and eliminate people and make. them redundant IR relevant that is the. point of AI and transhumanism is to kind. of eliminate people um the body yeah the. body and the mind actually both yeah um. I think people can feel that it scares.

the crap out of them and they're. reacting against that thank heaven and I. know of course it's not too late I mean. Ai and transhumanism will you know a. thousand or 10,000 years ago from now. will seem like the Absurd jokes they are. I mean AI is not going to extinguish. people forever it may extinguish 99% of. them but people will. on and they'll mock AI you know in. future generations and trans humanism.

will just be like. phenology or some other stupid cult that. we make fun of slavery you know. something we look back on and think do. people really do that um do you know. what I mean it's absurd it's like it's. only for creepy billionaires in the tech. World think that's a good idea and of. course they're being controlled by. spiritual forces by demons that's so. obvious to me but they're not going to. win are you J they're not going to win. um they may win shortterm but they're. not going to win long term so anyway.

yeah no I think there's massive change. in. people's uh like deepest feelings about. the world right now and I think it's for. to call it a. Revival it's my sense too and um in part. because I've listened to some of the. people you've interviewed and and talked. with over the last you know few weeks. and um and i' I've looked at some of the. data which suggests that um there's. actually young men uh are the ones. leading a return to church 18 to 29 year.

olds are leading uh return to church in. fact that more yeah like how much can. you eat how many random people can you. sleep with it's not that fun how much. time can you spend on your phone how. much porn can you watch uh uh it's it's. a deep and and they have a very strong. sense too maybe even better than you and. I have about it being foisted on them. they just grew up in a culture that was. that had these structures already in. place and if interestingly when um some.

of my colleagues do things like teach a. class that would involve a technology. fast for instance like those classes are. totally full and like people want people. want to get out of it they want an. excuse to get out of it they want an. excuse to get out of it it's I just am. amazed you know given how many. addictions I've beaten in my life you. know things I never thought I would stop. doing like smoking especially which. amazingly I quit at the age of 45 or. drinking you.

know no problem I quit it no problem I. never would go back to either one of. those things pretty hard to get off bad. food and your phone like I just have. I'll just say from my own experience I. think I'm pretty good at beating. addiction hard to get off your phone. hard to stop eating wheat THS like those. are very addictive both of those things. and we've got as you've talked about on. your show a few times now we've got the. best um scientists and including social. scientists and chemists and others who.

are working very hard to make sure. that's the case right because it makes a. lot of people a lot of money well yeah. yeah I sort of missed the porn thing and. thank God I didn't grow up with that and. you know obviously my phone's totally. monitored something like even if I was. into porn I would not look a porn which. I'm not but my sense is that like the. whole country is addicted to porn I. don't know too much about it oh it's an. extraordinary thing I mean we basically. have a pornified culture or the kind of.

things that you and I grew up with is. sort of odd you say well that's how a. porn star dresses or these These are. attitudes that um that come from porn. this thing that's out there that's. separate from the rest of the culture. it's now pretty well accepted that the. culture itself has been pornified so the. logic of porn is now the logic of the. culture more broadly in fact that's how. this is how most young people today. understand what sex is and what it's for. um this is why I don't know if you've. seen uh in recent um I think it's been. over the last couple years this has been.

a phenomenon more and more women uh. report being choked during sex right. this is a phenomenon that's just come up. almost directly because uh young men and. boys see this uh on their phones and on. their TV screens right yeah I I don't. know again I'm 55 thank heaven um but. I'll be gone soon I we have to deal with. any of this. stuff but um since you brought up. something that forbidden and naughty. I'll just say for whatever it's worth. probably nothing but I've heard a lot.

about this from you know younger people. I come into contact with and it sounds. like that that's driven 100% by women. just just being honest from every report. I I mean I was so shocked the first time. I heard that since I don't really see a. connection between violence and sex I. never have it's just deeply unappealing. to me um maybe I w't feeling too much. here but but I mean it you know we all. have preferences I've never really. understood that violence really no. violence is not not hot but anyway.

here's the point I've talked to like. more than three young men who were like. oh yeah this is like a constant request. that I'm not that into from women okay I. didn't know that I've heard that so much. that I think it's really interesting. what is. that I don't know what that's about I. don't know what that's about but it does. show that the impact now is not just on. men right so we we used to think that. porn was mostly consumed and still is I. think the numbers say mostly by men and. boys but with that I think it really. strongly indicates is that women and. girls are also con you know I really I.

don't know I'm really interested in how. people live just because I'm a curious. person so I've like I always ask. questions about all sorts of stuff with. people probably too many questions but. um but do you know who has the most sex. and the best sex of all yeah married. people people by far by far and I know. that as a pretty very Pro-X Protestant. because I'm I'm for reproduction you. know yeah um it seems like people are. not having. sex no they're not I would joke with my. students and say you know you guys claim.

to be these wild people and you look at. my generation older generation as fudy. duddies or whatever that's not what the. numbers say no that's not what the. numbers say at all um and so it's. interesting to think about what that is. it doesn't seem to be a kind of I mean. it's not clear I mean if there if there. is a Revival underway and if young men. are returning to church in significant. ways maybe it has something to do with. that but it could also be just again the. ubiquity of sitting around playing video. games and and watching important all day. long too well I it does my strong. overwhelming sense is that the distrust. between the Sexes particularly younger.

people is kind of the defining fact like. they don't trust each other and they. don't they seem to have a lot of trouble. getting along I don't know I don't want. this to turn into like a long catalog of. all of our social problems but it I. guess all I'm saying is in response to. your original question I think things. are coming to a head where whatever. we're doing is just not working that's. right at all and that's become really. obvious at every level at the at the. personal level men and women are having. a lot of trouble understanding each. other getting married having children.

buying a home finding a job that. sustains all of that you know just to. basic middle class life that's like. Beyond people's reach and then looming. above us is the constant threat of. annihilation right by AI or War things. that were created by our lunatic leaders. like actual lunatics who run the country. who hate us and hate Humanity. and but but everyone feels that anxiety. of like holy any minute this could. all. end and that's a weird environment like.

I grew up during the Cold War you know I. was on my honeymoon when it ended so. that's how old I am and I never felt I. was sort of aware you know yeah I never. really felt like any second we could die. in a nuclear. conflagration now I definitely feel that. way don't you and we have obviously. something that didn't exist back then uh. our add to our phones and our social. media which is constantly calibrated to. make us feel anxious and depressed and. it works and it totally works again we.

got the best social scientists in the. world working for these companies it. would be strange if we weren't be. strange if we weren't how long after you. wake up do you check your phone oh my. gosh I don't I want I don't want to. admit it it's okay I've admit I love. Wheat Thins yeah yeah no I my phone is. is my alarm clock so so like for so many. people um uh so immediately so I I my my. phone wakes me up and then my phone is. in my hand and so I see the. notifications on my phone and I want to.

see what's going on in the news that day. or somebody's texted me right when you. wake up oh yeah oh yeah so how bad for. your spirit is that it's. horrific like how many mornings have. been wrecked you're speaking for. everyone right now not just yourself. mostly speak I to be honest with you. about my but I'm definitely speaking for. lots of other people as well you are. yeah but how many mornings have you sort. of woken up and there's you know your. bride next to you you and maybe a dog or. two and you're sort of happy and. sunlight streaming in and you pick up. your phone and you think oh man Western.

Civilization is over yeah I. mean we just spent an hour and a half. talking about infant aside so like you. know the kinds of things I think about. almost all day long are horrific things. right so I and my algorithm knows that. so I get sent these things people also. send these things because they know I'm. interested right so oh did you see what. so- and so hospital is doing now and. that this that and the other so I mean. it's it's something that um I've thought. about and many of us I'm sure have. thought about um for a long time now is.

how do we uh how can I do my job how can. I be aware of the things I need to be. aware of um and yet have a a much. healthier and people have written books. and I've read the books and I've I've. talked with other people my wife and I. uh have talked about this at some length. how we can negotiate these things in our. life because she's not as bad as I am. but it's you know she's involved in this. in this lifestyle as well um but but. again the the the companies that make. tons of money from this stuff have. have hired the best social scientists in.

the world uh to make sure that we that. we that we're going to try to do the. best job to make us fail in in these in. these opportunities and I've tried. multiple times we even have this uh. thing that we we haven't used yet we. bought it it's apparently this box you. can sort of put your phone into and like. you have to have a spe specific com com. combination um to open it it's sitting. there in our kitchen sort of laughing at. us because we haven't used it but it's. there as a reminder like we probably. should be using this thing um but yeah I. used to feel that way about drinking you.

know Sunday morning I'd think I've just. I've got to stop this this is just too. bad and you know ultimately I did but uh. and I always knew I would like you can't. be that hung over and like keep doing it. yeah but um I suspect I'll never get rid. of. this so how do we live with it like what. is the what is the good way that we live. with those things it's it's very it's. it's it's difficult for me to imagine. because I've thought about this I've. obsessed frankly over this question and.

um and I think we need I think one of. the solutions is to have a community of. people right around you that can hold. you accountable for this and so much of. what happens here it seems to me anyway. is um we lead isolated lives unlike the. lives we used to lead both as a species. and sort of as a culture not that long. ago where there could be people that. would hold you accountable to that sort. of thing like I at least uh would of. course make my kids leave their phones. away from the dinner table for instance. that's one small thing you can do um but.

now I find myself at the dinner table uh. pulling it out right and say well we're. at dessert I guess I can sort of check. and see what's going on here well of. course you or in a restaurant people. leave it on the table like they used to. leave a pack of cigarettes they leave. the phone I prefer the cigarettes um. less less harmful much less harmful I. think there's a strong case for that oh. my God Marrs compared to the iPhone. bring back the maror are you joking yes. um so you live to 65 so you know what I. mean uh okay so I want to get back.

speaking of holding people accountable. so doctors have a unique power in that. they are present at the beginning and. the end of life and they have the power. to kill and it's not regulated at all. I've noticed and so really we're all. dependent on the attitudes of. Physicians. to stay alive like we need them to be. Pro life not simply against abortion but. in favor of Life as a default position. that's right or else we're screwed and.

yet so many of them I have in my. personal experience are vehemently Pro. death and I'm not saying all but most. doctors I have known are strongly pro-e. so what do you do about that yeah well. we are living through an epic change. right now in our culture a a a change. with regard to our technology a change. with regard to our. politics a change perhaps with regard to. this religious revival that may be.

coming um we currently have a a medical. culture which is dominated by secularism. by a a hostility to the very to the. vision of human dignity and equality. that we've been articulating so. far could that change I think the answer. is yes it could also change um in a very. similar way to the way that um younger. people more generally are changing so. young doctors young nurses young whoever.

uh will be caring for us I think there's. an important case to be made actually. that maybe Healthcare needs like a. different kind of category to care for. people that doesn't exist just in a. clinic with a bed somewhere but is a. broader sort of understanding of people. more broadly outside of just caring for. them in their sickness but also in their. health or in this in between stage. before they need to go to the hospital. or get checked out by a clinician and. maybe that sort of thing is is coming I. hope it is um but if we can recover and. by the way it was you know the first. hospital was uh was of course a.

Christian Hospital right like this was. invented in the Middle Ages um nurses we. were talking about at um at breakfast uh. the all the original nurses were. Catholic women religious um nuns nuns. nuns um they taught night Andale. everything that she knew um the uh. there's still uh a really strong. proliferation of religious um hospitals. religious um uh health organizations.

Health Systems many of which are. Catholic one in seven beds in the United. States is actually at a Catholic. facility um there are ways to recover. this image of human dignity and replace. the one that's in there now especially. again if we have this broader religious. revival underway that you're talking. about can we recover this vision of. human dignity that we've been articula I. think the answer answer is yes but we're. going to need to and this is very much. connected again to the show you did with. the mean siblings about how what is the.

god that is actually governing healthc. care is it the god of Mammon is it the. god of consumerism is it the god of. efficiency or is it something else right. is it is it a is it a center of ultimate. concern God that um is non-violent that. is about fundamental equality that is. about the most vulnerable it is about. not using individuals as mere means to. another end for profit and efficiency. consumerism um there are enough people. out there there are enough people out. there good people uh to be a form of.

resistance to that um I'm biased I'm a. Catholic moral Theologian I teach at a. Catholic medical. school again I teach at a seminary as. well I think one place to start would be. institutions of the Catholic Church to. say we are going to rebuild these. institutions in ways that resist the. kinds of things that um the kinds of. things that happen when we put Mamon and. consumerism and efficiency. at the center of what we do um and and. we are well primed to do something like. that again one in seven beds it's a.

massive uh opportunity and it doesn't. need to be limited to Catholic. institutions there are plenty of. non-catholic Institutions as well um but. at least that's where I put my hope. that's where I say we can have a Revival. could you start a Christian Hospital. Center and just say you know that we're. not in the business of killing or in the. business of healing we're not going to. do any killing here that's right but. could you do do that there's no hospital. like that that I'm aware of oh yeah. there's really no reason why you. couldn't do it I mean in fact this is. what Catholic Hospitals say we have.

ethical and religious directives which. we say we aren't going to do these. things and we there's no abortion in. catholicos there's no hospital there's. no abortion there's no euthanasia now. I'm not going to say that there aren't. hospitals and systems that try to find. their way around these things they do. but it's at least in principle something. that um is forbidden and um and it's not. a no it's a broader yes right it's it's. a yes to a particular vision of human. dignity that requires. knows but we have four decades now in. the United States had a really powerful.

um uh attempt to carve out this space. for ourselves through religious freedom. to say yeah I know you guys you're for. abortion yeah I know you guys are doing. this other thing we're not going to do. that in these hospitals and by the way. uh we can no longer call this a Catholic. Hospital if you're going to force us to. do that we will shut ourselves down in. fact if you tell us we need to do this. and so far we've had pretty good success. in um in and especially from the Supreme. Court in telling us that yes you're free. as Catholic Hospitals and other.

institutions to not do abortions to not. do uh physician assisted suicide even. contraception even something like that. uh Catholic Hospitals don't don't. prescribe contraception at least in. principle shouldn't um and so if we. there's no reason again it needs to be. limited to Catholic Hospitals again it. was the I didn't mention this the you. know who uh who carved out the religious. freedom exemption for brain death in New. Jersey Orthodox Jews so it was Orthodox. Jews who said um yeah our guys who have. brain dead not dead and you're not going. to force us um to call them dead and.

we're going to carve out religious. freedom exemption for ourselves here in. New Jersey um so again it doesn't need. to be limited to even Christianity at. all plenty of uh religious folks and. even non-religious folks can can can. imagine how this might work apart from I. agree completely um I you know people. who think there's an authority higher. than themselves have the humility that. is the found Foundation of wisdom and. good decision making and people who. think they're God you know always wind. up going way off the rails I think I.

think that's right. and and it's not an accident right again. that historically um it was Jews it was. Christians and even Muslims to a certain. extent who were very much connected in. their early stages to to both. Christianity and Judaism who push back. on abortion and fantasy in the ancient. world for the reasons that we've already. talked about so is there anybody. providing ethical guidance to the. scientists funded by us tax dollars who. are tampering with the building blocks. of life and doing frankenstein-like.

experiments one of which resulted in. covid um in order not to save lives but. to feel like God because there's an. awful lot of that genetic engineering. and the rest of it is are there any. ethical guidelines to that at all there. are medical ethicists who work in those. spaces um most of them if I can just. speak frankly uh have been compromised. with regard to the kinds of stuff we've. been talking about so far so most of. them would either be um neutral or have.

no connection to the kinds of V uh. visions of of human dignity and. non-violence and so they're not really. ethicists then well they're certainly. not ethicists you and I would recognize. as being good ethicists in fact they we. might call them bad ethicists um. propagandist for. murder that's what I would say I mean I. don't know I'm sure the Nazis had. ethicist too I mean like doesn't mean. anything at a certain point if you kill. gri bonhof I'm sorry yeah you don't have. any working ethesis on staff yeah the uh. the largest um the largest conference in.

bioethics the United States is something. called the asbh the American Society for. bioethics and Humanities conference and. um I stopped going a few years ago. because I realized that um the only. place that my voice was really welcome. there was in the uh Christian ethics. interest group that met in the evenings. the main the main papers the main panels. not at all interested in hearing from. someone like me justifying evil was kind. of their job like what like what are. their guidelines exactly well um it.

depends who you talk to but um a. secularized context in bioethics has. been sort of taken over by what's called. principlism which is this idea that. there are four main principles in. bioethics turns out autonomy really high. on the list the first principle actually. uh non-maleficence Do no harm which is a. classic bioethics principle beneficence. do good and Justice give everyone their. due but those things those principles. Tucker are just so generic and so. unspecific that virtually anyone can. manipulate those principles and sort of.

end up with what they want at the end of. the day but don't kill people's not on. the list well you might say that's non-. Maleficent well clearly it's not they. against Justice right but that's what. I'm talking about so you know what is. harm is parasitic on what is good right. and if we have a disagreement about what. is good um then we're going to disagree. about what non-maleficence is what you. know say First Student no harm right. well if I think uh you know that there's. no such thing as human dignity and that. we really just need to be maximized. organs for transplant what is doing no.

harm in any situation will look quite. different right it might in fact be. saying I don't really need to test for. hypothalamic function let's just declare. this individual dead and decide that we. can take their organs right so when we. have these four sort of generic. principles which rule the day and bio. secular bioethics today you can really. get anywhere you want with them um and. so it turns out frankly that those of us. who are doing theological bi ethics end. up in having our own conferences our own. journals our own sort of intra um.

insulated uh discussions and secularized. Medicine really does is with few. Exceptions there are some exceptions. secularized medicine rarely gives us the. kind of hearing so there are no ethics. without God like why would there be. actually I mean I think there's a strong. case to be made that that especially the. I mean the first bioethicist were in. fact theologians we invented the field. well if there's no higher power than How. can there be absolute right or wrong you. can't say that you can say I prefer this.

thing to that thing but you can't say. that anything is wrong why is slavery. wrong why is murdering your neighbor. wrong you can say well it's bad in some. sense but you can't say it's wrong can. you I think on what basis are you saying. that yeah I think I think it's kind of I. Like The Cut Flower analogy right you. can still say well here's a flower right. and it's pretty and it's whatever but. it's been cut off from the thing that. gives it life it's dying it's on its way. out so there are secular people uh who.

do who do offer visions of human dignity. they offer visions of human equality but. they've been so cut off from the. tradition that God gave us but they. can't justify it yeah it's if you if you. pin them down and you just go all walk. them all the way back which is well I. just think this is preferable like life. is better than death cruelty is bad why. is it bad that's right CU I don't like. it okay but that well maybe I do like it. so how can you say you're right and I'm. wrong because they're not appealing to. anything above themselves therefore it's. just a. circular argument and uh and the thing.

that I find so frustrating about this is. um my secular counterparts um in these. fields sort of criticize religious. people for being um you know uh. believing in. Superstition uh irrational you know and. trying to impose their point of view on. others but in reality if you just walk. uh these secular folks back to their. first principles their vision of the. good and you say okay we've walked you. back and you believe in the greatest.

good for the greatest number why do you. think that right why do you think you. should maximize the greatest good for. the greatest number and why do you think. that's the primary thing you should do. and there aren't any rules governing. that at all they don't have an answer. for that Tucker It's just something that. grabs them by some sort of Authority or. Intuition or. self-evidence but that sounds a lot like. a faith claim right they're just. children what do have you ever asked. them what do you think of the Nazi you. think Asia program was that justifiable. and how is it different from what we. have now oh they would say that um the. the reason why the Nazi program was.

problematic is because it didn't respect. patient autonomy the first principle of. bioethics oh and and we just let we just. and we differ in what way well given the. conversation over the last hour and a. half or whatever it's been I think we. it's very clear we also uh do not. respect patient aut anyone who forces a. vaccine on somebody by definition is not. respecting patient aut. if I'm telling you you're required by. law to put some drug in your body that. you don't want how am I treating you as.

a human being I'm treating you as my. slave as a subhuman right well that's. the argument that that we've heard um. now for several years which is isn't it. interesting that um many of you were all. about bodily autonomy are all about. bodily autonomy uh when it comes to. Reproductive Rights so-called U but then. uh we're we're very happy to jettison. conscience right rights and bodily. autonomy rights when it came to those uh. sorts of issues it doesn't seem to be um. again a kind of coherent vision of the.

good what did the ethicist community say. to that well I'm sure they went all in. on the vax mandates I mean of course. they did yeah I mean as you know there. have been a lot of important questions. asked across the board recently that. weren't asked at the time but at at that. point I think there was just a ton of. fear right a sense that like um you know. they they this is almost always how it. works right these sort of things get get. eroded because of. claims that are so fearful not to be. mean or whatever but that is my default. um don't we have ethesis precisely for.

the moments that are ruled by fear isn't. that that is what when we lack a clear. consensus on the right direction and. when our judgment is muddled by Panic. that's exactly the moment we need clear. thinking ethicists correct correct. that's why we employ them that's right. and it was at that moment that they like. were swep Away by Panic too I mean what. not all of them but but a lot of but a. lot of them a lot of them I was one of. the ones arguing that um you know C.

Catholicism actually has a very robust. sense of conscience right uh to say like. oh conscience is the place where you. meet God in the most profound way and um. and where you and where you where God. speaks to you in the most profound way. and conscience um rights actually um. have been coded left for a lot of uh the. church's history in recent years um but. it's interesting again when this sort of. fear took over um the the focus on.

conscience sort of went away right like. this the sense of I mean I I don't agree. with some of the claims that people were. making about you know the kinds of. connections to aborted body parts and. things like that reasonable people can. disagree about that but I would say hey. this is enough of a serious argument we. ought to respect people's conscience. rights to choose not to take the vaccine. because because but but it's so. interesting that those arguments sort of. evaporated in light of all that fear. well you didn't even hear them at least. I didn't um okay so last question I have.

no I I just I'll just say it because I. know that you're well you're a Catholic. Theologian um and I'm a lifelong. Protestant so I've always been for. contraception I've never really thought. about it and it was one of the things we. used to make fun of the Catholics about. they were against birth control okay. they had these giant families which we. for some reason considered bad uh. like low rent too many children what are. you Irish oh. stop it's like I'm laughing as it's like.

it's hard even to imagine having those. attitudes now but I once did but anyway. I'm saying that by way of. confession but in the last few years I. have noticed the reason I've had cause. to rethink all this is because I've. noticed that almost every major push. from the public health community and. certainly from our. politicians is anti- fertility yeah. that's that's what they're focused on. it's the one right you possess is the. right to have an abortion that's the. only you don't have the right to speak. freely to you know to to have control of.

your own money to gather with. like-minded people to protest or. petition your government none of those. rights still exist the only right you. have is the right to end your pregnancy. and of course to prevent it in the first. place through birth control and I just. I'm sensing a theme I'm not a genius but. I I have noticed that the thread that. connects all of their main concerns is. the same and is they don't want you to. have kids and why is. that it's a multivariant problem I mean.

if you look if you look at um surveys. women are very consistently reporting. that they would like to have more kids. than the kids they actually have right. you think yeah yeah um and the reasons. they give are very interesting uh uh. both um Vance and Waltz in the recent. debate were asked about Paid Family. Leave as a possible option um uh to. pursue and it was very interesting to. hear them both offer sort of vaguely. supportive ideas with regard to that a.

number of women give lack of Paid Family. Leave as reasons for why they don't have. the number of kids that they want to. have others uh suggest that you know. they would much rather have an A a um a. a not being a too income trap right. where they feel like uh they must be. away from their kids all the time and. work Elizabeth Warren be before she. became a just a totalitarian robot which. she is today wrote a wonderful book on. this called the two income trap which I. quoted at length on Fox News ones.

without identifying the author and you. could hear people applauding in the. audience until they found it was. Elizabeth Warren who wrote it but she. did write it and she made that point if. you ask women what they actually want. not all of course but the overwhelming. majority would like to raise their own. children particular when they're little. yeah you know no one wants to hang. around a 15-year-old I got it but when. they're five most wom would like to. raise their own kids and not import. people from another country to do it and. that seems like the most human of all. desires and it's the one desire that we. thwart and I found that conversation.

about Paid Family Leave like nauseating. actually because that was no one ever. mentioned the possibility that maybe. women could raise their own kids that's. right why do we have to choose between. the two right exactly how about the. thing that people really want like above. all else which is to be with their own. children the most important thing. they'll ever do is have children maybe. they like to be with them for a couple. years no one even mentioned that I think. they don't you know I'm this is pure. speculation I think one reason people. don't mention it is precisely because of.

how. deeply um the systems and structures. which have led to the two income trap. are foundational in our culture we would. have to undo so much of what our culture. we do it immediately because it's so. rotten and antihuman it's denying people. the true source of Joy that's right in. their lives and substituting it with. like a bank job or something that's. utterly pointless and destructive no. what you really need to do instead of. having kids is help us loan money at. interest I mean that's so disgusting to.

me sorry and actually the exploit of. lending money at interest used to be. called Usery and it used to be. considered a intrinsically evil act in. the tradition by the way well it still. is in my house so that's how I feel. about it strongly um but that's. considered wildly controversial I mean. like you know having six trans kids is. considered great but criticizing user is. considered like whoa off the charts. you're a big.

crazy well I find it disgusting I just. want to be on the record saying that um. but anyway but what like why would you. want to deny people children like what. is that. impulse again I think it's multivariant. the other variable I would include is is. the the climate crisis that is. constantly thrown at people right to say. like I don't want to bring into a world. where everyone's going to die for things. related to climate change um I think. also they're not worried about nuclear. war which they've I mean they brought us.

to the brink of nuclear war where we are. as of right now October SE 2nd I think. it's October 2nd we're on the brink of. nuclear war right now but nobody cares. but they're worried about climate change. I mean what is going doesn't make any. sense and again there's no reason we. need to choose between the two but um I. don't at least I can't think of one uh. but then there's also the drug companies. here as well and this is again I keep on. bringing up this amazing um show you did. with the with the mean siblings that. brought up uh big Pharma and and and the.

exploitative practices of of of. contraception as part of uh big Pharma. we talk about getting kids on a regimen. which makes Pharma tons of money. for almost their whole lives well how. about getting um a young girl on um. birth control from the time she's 12. until the time she um she hit menopause. right think about that windfall think. about um what that means uh for the. broader culture uh too and we we support.

patient autonomy right except for. 12-year-old girls where the doctor just. say okay it's time for you to be on. contraception now and everyone sort of. goes along ho home and uh and we're. we're just now really starting to reckon. with what this might be doing to women's. bodies and and Beyond well it's a. disaster and young women know that and I. think the number of young women getting. off the pill is extraordinary you know. extraordinary right for the first time. in my lifetime I mean it was always. considered really subversive and not. acceptable really to point out that the. pill increased stroke risk for example.

just as abortion increases breast cancer. risk not to mention that either not. allow um but I never put it all together. in my mind which is the one thing that. all of. these attitudes have in common is the. desire to stifle. fertility and it's hard to escape the. conclusion that there's a spiritual. uh force behind that yeah and it's a. spiritual force that may again run. throughout um the different topics we've. engaged uh you know it's it's again.

treating women not as fully autonomous. individuals ironically though that's the. language which used which is used to. suggest that they need to do this right. except for women who do want to prend. from this who want to lead a different. kind of Lifestyle who are often actually. not religious at all but sort of crunchy. Progressive lefties who say I don't want. to put this cinogen in my body I don't. want to put this poison in my body right. um that's again one of the things that's. pushing uh back from this we we we use. the language which actually inverts what. is actually happening we use the.

language of autonomy and empowering. women when in reality it's it's doing. precisely the opposite it's it's. interesting though the connection I'm so. glad you pointed that out it's not just. like evangelicals in Iowa no who are. suspicious of the current program it's. also like you know the furry armpit. girls who are for that who I support. strongly I just say that um but what do. they what do those two have in common no. but it's it's kind of secular granola. people too yeah to the extent they still.

exist there aren't many of those left I. wish we had more they're great people. yeah but what do they have in common. with religious people well they're both. kind of grounded Yes actually in. something beyond the digital world and. they're both more in touch with. themselves like those are the two groups. in America who might actually have a. moment of silence every day where they. can listen. you know what I mean yeah and and. skeptical of what's being foed on them. by corporations and others who want to. make money off it's only when you have. that silence that you can be skeptical.

otherwise your senses are hijacked by. the machine in your hand and you don't. have even you don't have time to think. and more important you don't have time. to listen you don't have time for. silence and it's in silence that you. receive wisdom obviously obviously um. and so the rest of the country goes to. sleep with the TV on and only the the. granola chicks and the religious people. don't have it on and maybe they're. hearing something that the rest of us. should be hearing and that's yeah that's.

a wonderful thing to I don't know if. this is what we're going to finish on. but that's a wonderful thing can we can. we make space for that silence right. that that that place again where God. meets us in our most foundational of. course way like that is I think that. maybe I don't want to speak for you. maybe one reason you moved up here to. Maine because at least in my short time. here this seems like a wonderful place. to encounter that silence to put the. phone away to to put the the the. pounding um feed that just do helps you. doom like not helps you pushes you to.

Doom scroll and feel terrible uh but. instead uh think uh critically but also. think creatively I can't tell you how. many times my creative thoughts even. whole book ideas have come just when I. was holding my infant son in my in my. lap and just and just had no no nothing. else to do but let that happen but. that's always where it comes I have a. chair outside my I take a on every day. not for health reasons I'm obviously. like one of the more unhealthy people. you'll meet. um I plan to buy a tin of chewing. tobacco today so I'm not a health guy at.

all but I am a silenc person and that's. why I do it and it's known as my Cedar. church and I was like you know if I get. 15 minutes to sit buck naked in a hot. room in silence like that's a massive. improvement over not doing it and I have. a chair outside my sauna I used to write. my whole script just sitting there you. know like you just inside. silence only in silence can you receive. you know. actual Clarity and wisdom so I know I'm.

not articulating it very you are no you. got it and that's historically again to. take it back to the to the tradition um. that I'm that I'm Bound by uh there was. so much emphasis on finding these times. for silence right to to imitate Christ. going into the Wilderness to to hang out. with the with the monks to to get out of. the situation you're in and allow. this voice to speak to you in a way that. allows you to be both critical and. creative it seems like a pretty scary. religion you've signed up with Charlie I. can see why people hate it it turns.

[Music]. out silence and nonviolence and. Imagination and critical thinking who. wants that cared caring for disabled. kids yeah man whoa slow down man you're. freaking me out sorry about that Tucker. I sure appreciate you're taking all this. time um that was absolutely my to talk. about all of this last question where if. people are interested in and I. interrupted you so many times I'm afraid. we didn't get to a lot of things but um.

for people who want to understand more. about how you think and the way you've. connected a lot of seemingly. disconnected Trends in our society which. are of a of a piece I think yeah where. can they read. you so my Twitter handle is C kamosi so. c c m o y but probably the book I've. written I'm starting book 10 or I'm. trying to finish book 10 by Thanksgiving. but probably the book that makes um I'm. actually writing a book right now trying. to finish a book on how um understanding.

what a good death looks like can resist. physician assisted suicide so maybe we. could talk about that some other time. too but uh to answer the question you. asked me um I wrote a book called. resisting throwaway culture how a. consistent life ethic can unite a. fractured people and that that book. really is the offers the kind of vision. that I've been trying to articulate I. hope you'll come back when your death. book comes I actually have seen a good. death yeah I was privileged really. privileged to see that with someone I. love and um boy you know it when you see.

it don't you yeah yes yeah um so but I. haven't thought very deeply about it you. clearly have so I hope you will come. back will talkk you thank you Tucker the. one thing that unites us all it's going. to happen Charlie thank you very much my. pleasure thank. [Applause]. [Music]. you James O'Keefe's Line in the Sand. premiering only on TCN on October 10th. you can sign up to watch at. tuckercarlson.com James oefs new.

documentary l in the sand at. tuckercarlson.com. [Music]. so it turns out that YouTube is. suppressing our show I know shocking. that in an election year with everything. at stake Google would be putting its. thumb on the scale and preventing you. from hearing anything that the people in. charge don't want you to hear but it. turns out it's happening so what can you.

do about it well we could whine about it. but that's a waste of time we're not in. charge of Google or we could find a way. around it a way that you could actually. get information that's true it's not. intentionally deceptive and the way to. do that on YouTube we think is to. subscribe to our Channel subscribe and. you'll have a much higher chance of. hearing what we say and we hope you will.