Matt Taibbi: All the Top Secret Information Trump Is Releasing & What He Should Declassify Next

so everyone's mad that um and even some. Democrats I think are mad about these. last minute Biden pardons of fouchy and. the j6 committee etc etc um so let's. just set that aside my concern is not. that these people are punished Fouch is. 81 yeah who cares I think he'll be. punished um you know in some larger. sense. but I want to know what they did that's. the okay so can we just go through a. couple of these and um like why would. you pardon what are the potential crimes.

the crimes you think he committed and. could be punished for that you're trying. to prevent him from being punished for. by partnering him well with fouchy. specifically the the one thing that. comes to mind uh immediately is perjury. yes because he's been accused of that. essentially already by you know the. house committee um lying under oath to. the Congress lying under oath to the. Congress in particular saying um you. know that we have we have never funded. gain of research.

um that that we weren't doing it during. this time period even as as there are. other people in the government like you. know the deputy director of the NIH uh. saying yes we were or Ralph barck who. was one of the the scientists that um. UNCC saying yes absolutely that was gain. of function uh so there's a little bit. of a problem there now he later amended. the statement uh and said that he was. speaking in a specific way under a. specific definition but there's exposure.

there but that's that's not really the. issue with bouchi the issue I I believe. [Music]. [Applause]. [Music]. [Applause]. [Music]. that the issue is really it's about the. whole Rat's Nest of gain of function how.

much did the authorities know about what. was going on at the Wuhan Institute did. they have human sources at the Wuhan. Institute um did they was their advanced. warning that this was coming were they. suppressing investigations into the. possibility of a lab leak uh because of. the connections to us research all that. stuff is in play I mean there there's. there's a lot of stuff that's going on. uh that you know that you want know so.

fouchy was part of the US bioweapons. program obviously right I mean if you're. funding gain a function it's you know. vaccines are one part of that but. probably not the only part of it right. so the idea is you make the virus more. dangerous in order to create a vaccine. to fight the virus right but in the. process you wind up with much more. dangerous viruses right and that's one. of the things that that uh raised a red. flag for some of the people who were. looking um at the co phenomenon is just. look at the surface characteristics of.

the disease it's highly transmiss. transmissible yes it doesn't it's not. terribly. symptomatic um everybody's going to get. it not everybody's going to be harmed by. it it's kind it's what they designed uh. what you would do if you were designing. a disease to carry a vaccine for. instance yes yeah so my interest is not. in fouchy I think any normal person can. make up his mind about fouchi it's. pretty obvious you fouchy is the super. bureaucrat it's in.

the bioweapon programs and the. Frankenstein science that's being funded. by our tax dollars around the world to. be specific in Ukraine in China in. Djibouti um you know we have. biolabs in a lot of places around the. world and like what are they doing what. are they doing what was their relation. to to the Wuhan Institute also I mean I. think those are all important questions. so both the bioweapons and you know the.

the relation to to the the pandemic um. but the the thing is about these pardons. they're mistake if you want to know. what's happening they just made it a lot. easier for us to find out oh because now. uh once the pardon's uh delivered the. person can't plead the fifth if they're. brought before a grand jury they can't. take the fifth anymore if they're. brought before a congressional committee. uh they they can't invoke the write. against self-incrimination so they have.

to say something um and this is what's. so interesting because I've been talking. to criminal defense attorneys people who. are former Senate investigators some. current Senate investigators and they. all kind of said the same thing it's so. illogical to give somebody a pardon if. you're trying to cover up uh things that. the only reason you would really do it. is if there's very serious crimes. involved right so that's a red flag for. us when we see somebody getting getting.

a pardon we think well why would they do. that unless there's something really bad. there right so uh either it's a mistake. where they just stupidly made it easier. for everybody to investigate or there's. something we don't know about that is. interesting well it's such a profound. thing to do I mean I if somebody said to. you Matt would you accept a pardon you. would say well why would I need a why. would I need a pardon no I mean that's. like no it's it's incriminating it's. morally incriminating has the appearance.

of moral incrimination just by its fact. right it's not only morally. incriminating it's legally incriminating. as the Department of Justice itself said. in a in a memoral I think on one of the. j6 cases it said this does not unring. the bell of conviction if you get a a. pardon going forward so you're making an. admission if you accept a pardon uh so. yeah I I wouldn't accept one if I were. totally innocent of course yeah and also.

I wouldn't accept one if I had something. to hide because now you know if I'm. dragged before a congressional committee. or especially a grand jury investigation. now I can't tap out and say yeah I'm. sorry I'm going to take the fifth on. that and that's fascinating right so it. the the whole thing is really. illogical um I think it was more meant. to be a symbolic gesture and this is. really I think speaks to the the. thinking of the Biden Administration. about so things right they were so.

driven by Optics with Trump that they. did so they did a lot of things that. were incredibly stupid so they want to. portray him as vengeful and out to get. people and the the pardons are a good. way to do that I mean if you're aiming. for that audience but it had the. negative effect of of opening all these. investigations up it seems to me so you. really think this was aimed at MSNBC. viewers just to paint Trump as a. vindictive person so I asked a lot of.

people why did they do this like what's. the point I mean and one of the theories. was that that this is messaging yes that. they were trying to create a headline. and there were lots of headlines. instantaneously if you saw them they all. basically said the same thing like you. know to to ward off future vindictive. retaliatory acts by the Trump. Administration you know Biden issues. pardons it's always after the comma. right yeah um.

that's one Theory the other theory is. that uh in the last days of a. presidential Administration it gets. pretty chaotic in the White House and. people who want things and you know they. will come in and there will be a hurried. fry to put stuff on paper and that's why. there are unprecedented things in these. pardons for instance the j6 pardons this. has never happened before where you give. a pardon to a category of unnamed people. right.

it says to the members of the committee. to the Capitol police officers who. testified to the staff but it doesn't. delineate the names of the people who. are pardoned so now if you want to. invoke your pardon you actually have. to go over um a test to prove that. you're actually part of that category. that I testified before the committee. does that mean that the committee called. you um that that you talked to a staffer. once or does that mean actually sat in.

front of the hall and testified it's. very weird and the only explanation that. I could come up with from people is that. they were in a hurry they didn't have. all the. names it's amazing right so but wh how. why would you preemptively pardon the j6. committee I mean that's like the single. most. legitimate morally empowered great group. of people ever impanel in this country. like. truly well I mean there obviously some.

theories about why they would do that. right. what Mother Teresa she was such a great. person we're going to preemptively. Pardon it like what this is like crazy. no it it is absolutely crazy and if I. were some of those people I'd be. offended yes especially the people who. who testified and who. didn't uh lie under oath for instance. right because they're all named um you. know all the police officers testified.

uh to the committee now what if they're. only really trying to protect a couple. of them and there are some very. conspicuous names I think we know who. they are right yeah exactly the ones. they're trying to protect right but what. if you're one of the other ones who who. just who just gave some testimony well. they I mean they interviewed hundreds. probably thousands of people right yeah. I it's some number like that massive. massive number I assume most of them. told the truth I mean right right most. people do tell the truth actually I. think I think that's probably the case. yeah I mean if especially if you're.

under oath and you're law enforcement. officer I mean it's a very serious thing. to to lie in those situations and you. know there are a couple of places in the. testimony where it doesn't look good for. some of the people who who testified but. for the vast majority of them I would. take it as a grievous insult to be given. that pardon and especially to not be. named that that's what's so weird about. it but it suggests what I have thought. from the first week which is they're. like serious crimes.

here I mean you talk to Steve Sun you. know who ran Capitol Police who's like a. non-political person just career law. enforcement former MP you know former. Washington DC cop I don't think he has. any weird agenda he I mean his story is. so. unbelievable they just didn't give him. any intel at all and didn't give him any. resources and everybody else knew this. was happening except him I mean the. whole thing is so nuts that you're like. wait there's something going on here I. don't really know the pipe bombs at the. the pipe bombs the G that was erected by.

some weird unknown group the night. before will we ever get disclosure I. guess that's what I want I just want to. know I again I'm not I am not vengeful I. don't really want to punish people so. much as I just want to know that feels. like punishment enough will we I think. we will I think we're we're heading into. a golden age for investigative. journalism I think this is after eight. years of crazy misleading news stories. and dead ends and answered questions and.

fake news uh you know ranging from. Russia gate to. nordstream to you know the covid origins. where we were actively kept away from. one side of that story for years uh I. think we're going to find out a lot of. this stuff there there are. investigations already underway document. hunts going on all over the place uh. there are reports that have been. commissioned uh to look into a lot of. these questions uh and they're going to. be staffed up with a lot of money and a.

lot of personnel and it's just an. unprecedented situation where for. instance the DHS or the FBI or the doj. would be in sync with Congressional. investigators to the point where they're. they're not going to have to issue. subpoenas for a lot of this stuff. they're just going to sit down and say. Here's a list of the documents we want. to find and I think that they're going. to have that collaborative Arrangement. incredible there's panic sense panic and.

I sense it um in some of these. confirmation battles particularly the. sort of offline stuff that you don't see. in the media but just when you find out. the lengths to which permanent. Washington is going to say sabotage. Tulsa. gabard was an army officer who's had a. clearance for more than a decade carries. an automatic weapon I mean clearly we. trust her with. America's you know defense why can't we. trust her with America's secrets of. course we can so what is this and it. really is people are panicked that what. they've been doing is going to come to.

light I think well they should be. panicked because if you read the. executive order on the weaponization of. government it specifically empowers the. Director of National Intelligence uh to. conduct a wide ranging report into the. possible misdeeds of the entire. intelligence community and orders her to. come up with you know anything negative. that they can find holy [ __ ] so can you. imagine right I. mean that that's like trying to make a.

list of everything. you she'll be doing it from now to the. end of time but no I mean the to in. perfect seriousness this is It's setting. the stage for you know kind of a second. Church committee hearings uh era and. that was a great moment in American. history once every 50 years right we. find out what they're doing with their. black budgets yeah and know and really. in in the mid '70s who would have known. right that we were doing such an.

incredibly wide. ranging uh you know list of horrible. stupid things from you know trying to. yes murder Castro with exploding sea. shells to spying on Martin Luther King. Jr to trying to you know leak news about. mistresses of civil rights leaders I. mean it Go the list went on and on and. on and we only found out about it. because they went too far right and now. suddenly people in the senate had a.

hammer uh to start looking you know into. this direction and it all came out well. not all of it but a lot of it came out a. lot of it Frank Church sadly got. incredibly fast developing cancer I. noticed did he yes he did he did kind of. like Jack Ruby style cancer Hugo chavea. sty cancer is interesting huh I did not. know that yeah couldn't treat it he died. sad um sorry no it's all right I mean. look it's hard not to think I I never. thought this way until uh like a year.

ago maybe a year and a half ago oh like. oh not only did I not think this way I I. attacked anyone who did right yeah but I. can I say one thing that I've noticed. now that I'm in middle age um is that. all my life the older guys I've known. like you go on duck hunting trips or. whatever in in Washington where I lived. like with my dad and his friends or. whatever and the guys who were in their. 50s and 60s all thought this way they. all thought this way you know after like. a lifetime of government survey as an. operations officer whatever you're doing.

right right right they all had this. mindset and I remember sitting like in a. Duck Blind thinking this guys are. [ __ ] crazy they're all nuts what I. didn't realize was there's a reason that. people become more open to these sorts. of explanations the more they see of. course and maybe right yeah I don't know. why I didn't get that yeah well I it's. probably just our generation that. thought the Schoolhouse Rock thing was. true.

I mean right that's so true cuz you know. we we we grew up with all the. President's Men and after the church. commit so we thought it all it had could. come out the good guys won there's. transparency we have the Freedom of. Information Act we can find everything. up no right it turns out no right I know. no you're I never thought of Schoolhouse. Rock and All the President's Men and. sophisticated propaganda put there by. the Intel agencies but I think you're. right. whether there whoever did it it was.

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specifically politicians by the way are. some of the ones using your data they. buy it and then employ it in campaigns. to swing your vote that's creepy as hell. there's a way to get around it though. it's called expressvpn with expressvpn. our online activity here at this office. goes through secure encrypted servers. that means no data Brokers can see what. you're doing online or we're doing. online not that we're doing anything. wrong expressvpn also hides our IP. address there's no way for our.

information we bought or sold we cannot. recommend it enough it's our identity. Defender it could be yours as well right. now you get an extra 3 months for free. when you use our special link go to. expressvpn.com Tucker get three extra. months of. expressvpn so can we just go through. since I think you're as I've said many. times in I Mee I think you're one of the. great reporters still working not that. there are many not there's a ton of. competition yeah there there aren't many. but um and and in in you are by your.

nature a curious person which is like. requirement one for journalism and like. the one thing no one else seems curious. about anything but you are so can you. just just go through in no particular. order the stories whose endings you'd. like to know like what are you curious. about as we enter an age of disclosure. and God willing we do what do you want. to know so first of all just to back up. I tried to make a list a couple of days. ago did yeah of all the things that I. would want to investigate if I were you.

know in in that kind of a position to. order these kind I'm actually going to. take notes as you talk because because I. I'm want to follow along at home as this. happens okay but I I couldn't finish uh. there were so many different things that. I never got to the end but I would say. that the big. ones you know they're huge glaring. questions which is unusual for instance. who who was president the last four. years especially the last year. uh I mean I think that's an enormous.

question tell blink do you think it was. blink you know I I think blinkin so evil. um so demonstrably evil and also stupid. that I just see his fingerprints. everywhere right um right but I that's a. pure guess that's that's the problem we. don't really know I know that in the. last two months blinkin did everything. he could to accelerate the war between. the United States and Russia which is. like I should be illegal I don't know.

how he got away with that nobody said. anything about it but that's a fact so. anyway sorry no but he and he you know. the his State Department was also. involved in the censorship stuff too so. yes um who was president who was. president start with a big question yeah. no I mean I think of all the crimes that. are on the table and the potential. corruption. issues people signing documents or. somehow getting documents signed by by. an incompetent president or an unfit.

president has to rank up there with the. most serious things that have ever. happened in uh in American history right. so you have to look at what were the. what was the. process of the White House operation. right who was actually running things um. we know from a surface Point who was who. held the posts right so Ron Clan was the. the chief of staff we know roughly who. else was in Joe Biden's orbit but what.

were the what was the schedule you know. did he did he sign things by autopen. because they have this this machine that. does uh and who and who was who. basically had the power of attorney to. turn that on right like these are all. questions that we have to get answers to. what was the day-to-day operation of the. Biden white house uh and again. especially in the last year because I. think you know that gets to bigger. questions of of who was really making.

these big foreign policy decisions and. who was making decisions about things. like um you know cutting off the. Democratic primaries to Challengers you. know right these are big party decisions. not necessarily White House decisions uh. who decided to to kick Biden off the. ticket I Biden on July. 13th was giving a speech in Detroit and. he's like I'm running I mean he couldn't.

have been more uh affirmative about the. idea that he was not going to drop out. of the race within seven days he was out. of the race with within three days after. that Detroit thing there were Stories. leaked out in Politico that were. basically saying that Nancy Pelosi was. going to ask him to or gonna try to. pressure him to drop out but I don't. believe that um I think we need to find. out exactly what those Communications. were I mean who had the authority to. push the president of the United States. off his own.

ticket uh unless he had a sudden change. of heart do you believe that I think. it's really obvious that his statement. dropping out on Twitter was issued. before he knew I mean I I've heard that. again I don't know is the truth but um. I've heard that it's very conspicuous. that when he when he wanted to say. things he said it on camera but there. were all kinds of things where the. wording was much more careful and that. was done on Twitter or or in a letter or. in in a press release I mean even even.

the the note explaining the pardons who. wrote that right it was on a the you. know Biden's Twitter account I doubt. he's sitting there tweeting so it's just. a coup I mean that's a coup if you take. a sitting president the United States. and force him to drop. out I mean right it it's on the table it. has to be uh because you know Jill Biden. has been very circumspect in in talking. about it she's said these really curious. things about how she wants to.

re-evaluate her relationships I think. she she was referring to Nancy Pelosi um. but what exactly happened uh in in that. onewe period between you know the middle. of July and the 21st or so and then what. happened in uh between the 21st and the. 22nd or whenever it was when Biden. suddenly came out and and made KLA of. the nominee like how did that happen uh. who made that decision so that was after.

the Republican. convention yes yes so you had this. incredible week or two where Trump gets. shot survives you have the convention. and Biden drops out I mean that's and as. far as I know I don't think anyone's. ever done like a real tick Tok on that. no there were there were stories but. they were incredibly incomplete and this. is one of the things where you know I. was looking at it even from just a.

professionalism point of view in terms. of the New York Times The Washington. Post all of these these papers how does. nobody ask who made the decision to. nominate uh kamla Harris how did that. happen um how was he kicked off uh or. how did he come come to that decision. normally there would be a big show of. that right there would be somebody would. come out and give an interview uh to I. don't know 60 minutes and say well.

here's how that happened right and. whether it was true or not there would. be a grand explanation um whenever. there's something big that happens with. the president here they just they just. kind of did a little tweet or a press. release and there were things that were. leaked out in newspapers none of it made. any sense so you know they have to get. all those Communications and I think. that's what was important there you know. there were preservation letters that. were sent out by some Senate committees. I hope it captured. a lot of the stuff but we'll see you.

know do you um have any. sense of what the answer is to either. one of these questions who was. functionally operating the Biden. Administration and who kicked Biden out. who made these decisions I've only heard. theories about this right and and that's. the problem it it's kind of. irresponsible for reporters to speculate. because I agree we don't know all we. know we we we saw little bits and pieces. of things like there was the there was a. really weird moment you might remember.

when um Biden said something to the. effect of we can't allow Putin to stay. in office or whatever it was right and. and people immediately interpreted that. as a re regime change of course comment. right 47 minutes later the White House. comes out with a walk back clarifying. statement saying you know our our policy. towards Russia is unchanged or something. something ambiguous like that but there. were leaks in the Press about what. happened there and there was a. remarkable line in one of the stories.

saying that Biden was allowed to. participate in the workshopping of that. second statement um how is he not in. charge of it first of all right like uh. and you know they're talking about Jake. Sullivan is is uh involved in the. process but that just gives you a little. glimpse into this idea of a collective. presidency where at best Biden was a. participant so. I I think we need to.

know um a lot of things about who was. actually making those decisions it might. be different in terms you know for each. Realm of the government right maybe the. national security questions were dealt. with by one person then you know the. foreign policy things by another I I. don't know I mean we'll. see um and then domestic policy which. doesn't even really exist in this. country it's all national security like. runs everything but right um who's doing. that yeah oh that was only the first.

thing in the list right the no you just. got you know it's so funny is you say. this and I won't interrupt you anymore. but I just can't I mean it's like crazy. you're going through this stuff this. just happened this summer yeah and I was. there I mean I know a lot of the people. I feel like I'm not that informed but. maybe more informed than average because. it's my job I kind of forgot about all. this stuff like so much stuff has. happened it's like it's amazing yeah. what we have allowed to sort of pass by.

us without demanding answers I mean I. remember being in Russia in the late 90s. there were multiple uh episodes that you. might classify as quasi CES yes right. there were there was an uh an episode. where people tried to arrest yelton's. bodyguard Alexander karakov and it kind. of turned out the other way in the end. and but there was intense reporting. about this. by the supposedly unfree Russian press.

at the time and then there was also the. whole question of you know why was Putin. brought in uh what you know what did he. do when he immed he was immediately kind. of used to uh clamp down on the an. investigation of yelson that was done by. the general prosecutor at the time I. mean that's all in the we what I'm. trying to say is even in a third world. country we got more. information uh about stuff that was. going on than we got last year in the.

United States of America where we had a. gigantic press Corp sitting in. Washington supposedly covering all this. stuff I I it blows my mind you do know I. mean you've done this your whole life so. you know and you grew up in it so you. you must still know people in that. gigantic press Corp a few but you know. the ones that I that I I'm still in. touch with mostly have been kind of. squeezed out uh you know there are. people who who did try to get to the.

bottom of what happened I mean saers did. a a story about the mechanics of how it. got to be went from Biden to kamla and. you know that story came out on substack. but it wasn't picked up anywhere no uh. and that's kind of the way the media. works also broke the story that the. United States NATO the B Administration. was behind the sabotage of nordstream. the natural gas pipeline to Western. Europe to Germany and that I mean that's.

on the list too obviously but that's I. mean I I think we can say that's. true and I mean why isn't sers getting. the pozer for that why you know he was. immediately this guy's been a hero on. the left for my entire life before I was. born he was a hero on the on the left. and all of a sudden everyone's like shut. up Putin apologist oh I know I know I. mean I'm sorry you know all this it just. oh it drives me insane it drives me. insane not only are there almost no good. reporters left the few good reporters.

left are like attacked all the time yeah. they know they've all been kicked to the. curb uh you know it's I think it's very. notable that a lot of the high-profile. investigative reporters just can't even. publish in the United States you know um. and you know look at somebody like Jeff. girth who who writes who who made a. point of kind of keeping ties to. traditional media and not Burning. Bridges and doing all that stuff and.

worked his his butt off to get this. 24,000 word piece about Russia gate into. the Columbia journalism review and it. should have landed hard it should have. landed like a Mike Tyson uppercut you. know and it people just ignored it so. even when they don't kick you out of the. club they just they ignore the hard for. people who were you know under 40 was. definitely one of the most famous. investigative reporters in the world. and feared yeah New York Times front.

page of course gir big deal guy for many. many years he was the Bulldog going. after the Clinton Administration on. everything right so I mean when he did a. story it it mattered it was on the desk. of every senator in the country of. course you know and that that's what's. so interesting about this period is that. there there is none of that the the. stuff that lands on the desks of people. in the relevant committees in Washington. is PR there's no reporting there for the.

most part um maybe that will change now. I don't know but um you know I doubt. it people read your stuff I happen to. know so that's that's good that would be. great to they do they do so um okay but. nordstream don't foret nordstream let's. go to nordstream and I'm now I'm gonna. stop interrupting nordstream what do we. know I mean I mean we know that there's. five or six shifting official. explanations of what happened they.

eventually settled on this kind. of laborin thine story about a rogue. Ukrainian operation that apparently. without our input when went and did this. um yeah I don't believe it uh I mean. it's it's it's laughable to think that. that's true and so you know that but. that's the kind of nordstream is just. one it's it's like looking up at the. stars in the sky that's just one of them.

um and that's a huge Story I mean think. about it that could Destro the German. economy it will destroy the EU. ultimately when people wake up from. their dream state it will destroy NATO. because it was an Attack by One NATO. power on a NATO Ally another NATO member. was attacked by the United States on. Germany so and it wrecked the German. economy absolutely it's strain strain. the incoming relations and and uh. it's it's just it could have resulted in.

you know an immediate nuclear escalation. I mean there's so many different things. it was a massive ecological disaster it. was a deep water Horizon level. environmental event the greatest. man-made emission of carbon dioxide in. history right and and it's a it's a tiny. footnote to the insane lunacies that. happened during this period it I'm sorry. but it is like nordstream is if you're. making a list of the the 10 weirdest. things that happened uh in the last.

eight years it it's probably at the. bottom I would think I mean wow I mean. don't you think I mean Russia I think. that's right I just you know I like. Western Europe I think it's important to. have a thriving Western Europe I don't. think they're a rival I think they're a. complimentary region to the United. States and to see it destroyed. intentionally by the Biden. Administration look it's just wreck. Western Europe like why would you do. that and I so I'm I'm fixated on it but. um but you're right so what are the. others so.

Co okay I mean there there are so many. different areas where they're going to. have to investigate reinvestigate that. uh we just went through a period where. you know there was sort of mass. stonewalling of of Congress when it was. trying to investigate what happened with. co uh you know people there were key. people like Peter dazak from the Eco. health Alliance who just didn't answer. subpoenas right and so we're going to.

there are documents that that we know. exist that we're going to get now uh you. know with FBI Communications between the. bureau and a lot of these scientists you. know dating back 10 years and it's going. to tell a very a crazy story I mean a. really interesting story there's a. reason why fouche's pardon is backdated. to 2014. uh because that's the time period that.

they're going to be have to start. looking which is you know when did we. start defying the ban on gain of. function re research we clearly did I. think that's I think that's pretty. established at this point uh why were we. doing it what connection did that have. to the Wuhan thing what kind of advanced. notice did we get uh what kind of Lies. were told about it U who were. responsible for those. what information did we get about the in.

inefficacy of the vaccine and how did. that connect to statements by the CDC in. the White House this also connects to. the censorship issue in a major way. because there was also a sort of massive. effort to control uh public the public. conversation about this uh that went. through the health agencies so we know. they're looking at that um and that's. another executive order by the way way. the the Free Speech.

order you know directs them uh the. Department of Justice to come up with a. comprehensive review of all the. censorship stuff so we're going to find. out about that but I just think Co is a. gigantic Rat's Nest of stuff and you. know it's going to be like a turkey. shoot where every direction they look. they're going to find something um you. know revelatory the question is will. that information reach the public. because there is the intermediaries the. media so like Congressional.

investigators executive branch agencies. like doj you know they they're. constantly inspectors General they're. always releasing reports and like no one. reads them because nobody picks them up. in the media do we have enough. interested reporters to like disseminate. what they find see I think we do because. I think that what we think of is the. media is dead it they no longer really. matter the the the the media that. matters now. um are people like you and and Joe Rogan.

and other you know there's podcasters. out there there's this gigantic thriving. Independent Media culture it's. incredible that you turned the last. election clearly yes uh it was also. abundantly clear that the that the old. media no longer had any ability to. control the narrative about anything. they're totally discredited so I I think. this stuff is going to come out and. because it's going to be so.

explosive it's going. to sort of solidify and heighten The. Prestige of all this New Media I think. we're probably going to see whole. institutions that are going to be built. around these disclosures we're going to. have new newspapers new new TV stations. so I normally save this for the end but. I'm feeling so enthusiastic I'm going to. do it now in case people don't get to. the end where do people find you how do. they support you if you've made it this. far in this conversation you're like. this guy's unbelievable how to I'm sorry. shamelessly promote for just one oh.

thanks no I'm at racket. news uh on. substack where uh a lot of these new. sites are uh for those who didn't grow. up playing squash how are you spelling. racket uh r a c k. news so ret not not. squash racket not squash racket like. racket like that's a racket you know. which this is it turned out to be apply. named so nice um but yeah no I I'm. feeling very optimistic now I think.

uh there's there are still some holes in. this new media landscape we don't have. the huge institutions that have. reporters who have Beats which I think. is crucial right uh because you need to. have people who develop sources in one. small areae and well you saw that with. Julie Kelly on january6 Julie Kelly I. don't know what she did before she's. purely kind of a creation of the. internet well she's a self creation but. she her medium was the internet and X.

specifically and she just got mad about. January 6th and just relentlessly. focused on that I'm sure she's other. opinions but she only did that and I. mean man this one. woman in who I think she's my age is. like Unearthed all this information that. was like no no one else got it except. her cuz she was just so focused on this. thing yeah no it it it's great it's. incredible and it's a that's exactly how. the Press is supposed to fun they're not. supposed to be credential like it's not.

supposed to be a thing where you know. somebody confers a title you are the the. official media no the citizen like. that's part of our job is is to be the. Press right like that's why the the for. the first amendment was designed for. exactly for that to happen and there. were there was lots of incredible. reporting that was done uh by either. individuals or small indic uh you know. organizations like the US right to know.

they filed you know hundreds of foyer. requests on fouchy and gain of function. and everything and they really started. the ball rolling on that whole side of. that investigation it's you know it's a. relatively small site um and they had. good good young reporters there who were. hungry and that's how this thing works. you know um amazing right amazing it's. exciting it's so exciting and it's also. true that there are increasingly people. making like a legit living not getting.

rich but like paying the bills doing. this job right and which is important. and that's also how it's supposed to. work I mean I I I remember hearing a. story about if Stone uh when I was. starting on sub substack I was calling. around to some of the oldtimers and. saying like is this a good idea for me. to tap out of mainstream media and they. told me a story that they said you know. I have stone cranked out a a newsletter. for those people who don't know he was a.

Izzy Stone Izzy Stone he was a you know. one of the original in independent. investigative journalists he worked out. of his house he put out this little. newsletter the I Stone weekly uh it was. great uh reporting independent didn't. have to answer to editors who told him. to shape things one way or the other and. he made a nice living got himself a nice. little house and that was enough right. and he had an impact and you can do that. now the internet makes it easier. actually it's amazing yeah in America we.

do things a little differently and we. always have when the British said hey. we're going to tax your favorite morning. beverage the Revolutionary Sons of. Liberty said no and they poured the. entire shipment of tea into Boston. Harbor and created a new country a. country based on personal choice and. freedom well 251 years later it is time. to throw throw something else overboard. your overpriced big Wireless contract. you don't need it do you need to pay.

$100 a month just to get a free phone I. don't think so the cell phone company we. use Pure Talk says no to all of this. inflated prices the BS the contracts you. can't understand and instead gives you. service that you need that you actually. need with pure talk is super. straightforward you get unlimited talk. text 25 gigs of data mobile hotspot at a. fraction of the price and with the. quality ifying plan of just $45 a month. they'll throw a free Samsung Galaxy your.

way so you get everything and you know. exactly what it is it's not designed to. deceive you we strongly recommend it. Pure Talk provides the same coverage as. the other guys it's just a lot more. affordable and a lot more. straightforward you can find it for. yourself visit Pur talk.com Tucker make. the switch today Pure Talk America's. Wireless company you wonder again I'm. I'm delaying you in your narrative once. more with apologies but you wonder um.

even just the four topics you've. mentioned so far are so big that if we. got the truth or some you know higher. percentage of the truth about those. things you wonder about the social. effect so one of the things the sensors. always say is they're doing this they're. preventing you from knowing certain. things to preserve societal stability. yeah and Trust in institutions trust in. institutions exactly trust in. institutions so um I mean that's already. gone away but it will evaporate. completely the more we know don't you.

think yes yes but it'll be like I mean I. hopefully it'll be like the church. committee hearings where look we just. have to accept people are going to have. their minds blown by discoveries. Revelations for instance it's already. starting in the news media we're we're. starting to get stories from journalists. who were told they had to suppress I saw. certain angles right uh you know there. was a you know political story about.

some people who were told to stay away. from the the hunter Biden laptop story. two Politico reporters having left. Politico admitted that Politico which is. supposedly covering Washington told them. no we're not we're not doing that right. exactly and you you know my first. question is why didn't you say that when. it happened but I guess people have jobs. right so that's uh that's a thing but. there are going to be a lot more of. those I mean there already kind of. Whispers or going around. but people are going to learn that.

institutions they believed in their. whole lives were fraudulent uh that they. lied to them about important things and. they're it's going to be difficult at. first especially since there are not. solid new institutions in place to. replace them yes uh you know it's one. thing if you're taking down the CIA in. the 70s and there's a supposedly. reformed CIA there right uh this is.

different the media is going to have to. re rebuild itself from the ground up I. think it's already doing great but it it. it doesn't have that look for a lot of. people right do that's right it looks. very different for sure and so you know. it's going to be as you I think that's a. good point it's a transitional period. for people I I guess look if you want. trust in Institutions and I definitely. do I do I grow trusting institutions I. don't now that's their fault not mine I.

think your country doesn't work if. nobody trusts any of the institutions. right it just doesn't so we want that. the only way to that is through. transparency. honesty so I get all that and I'm for it. vehemently I guess what I'm saying is. the people who've been administering the. system and benefiting from it are. completely freaked out right it's why. they're trying to stop Tulsi but I. wonder if they get threatened to. enough if they don't become like just. flat out dangerous to everybody else.

like the only way to stop disclosure at. this point would would be with like a a. catastrophe that's so all-encompassing. 9911 covid that it just everything shuts. down all Trends in progress stop and I. just feel like there's a lot at stake. for these people if you're you know John. Brennan or Jim Clapper and you're like a. criminal or Mike Pompeo you're a. criminal that's my opinion but I think. they're obviously criminals um like you. know you've got a lot to lose absolutely. yeah yeah and and people in the.

intelligence agencies uh whose names are. not known to the public they're about to. be uh exactly and you know that we don't. know what that's going to result in uh. what impact that's going to have well so. this was my thinking about you know the. the period between the election and the. inauguration this week um I think that's. one of the reasons that Tony blinkin was. pushing so hard for a real war trying to. kill Putin for example which the bid.

Administration did they tried to kill. Putin really yes yes they did WOW which. is insane if like okay so who takes over. Russia right and what happens to the. nuclear Arsenal in a country that's like. so complex Outsiders can't even. understand I mean you live there you. know that's demented that you would even. think of something like that absolutely. so why were they because chaos is a. screen that protects them I mean I don't. know this that's just like watching what. they're doing I'm like why would they be. doing that part of it is cuz like it's.

it's like when you're taking off the. roof of the embassy in Saigon you burn. all the papers right absolutely but they. can't because they're digital so maybe. you need like a war to hide your tracks. or to keep the Public's attention me. elsewhere right yeah exactly um yeah I. had the same fears and that was part of. my my thinking when they started you. know approving the firing of American. missiles into Russian territory and. British missiles and French missiles. why would you do like what possible.

reason would there be uh to do this. you're not really going to make any. military gains by doing this so it's. you're doing it either to provoke the. other side or to create a headline the. headline I don't think it gets you. anything no so what were they doing and. you know if you're if as you're saying. they they. were fiddling with regime change in the. in the interim yes yeah I think that was. a fear that a lot of people had I I. didn't think that frankly that Trump.

would become president I I thought I you. know for a variety of different reasons. I I don't I don't know exactly what. could have happened to stop that uh but. I it was hard for me to accept that it. did happen I I was sitting about six. feet away and I just thought wow I can't. believe this is actually happening up. until the second he said the oath I was. like man you know I mean I you just get. superstitious or paranoid or whatever it. is having seen all the stuff and I was.

embarrassed to have those thoughts I. agree I totally agree I was like wow I'm. becoming crazy yeah but it's not totally. crazy when you see the pattern so but I. guess my the point I'd make is it's like. we're not the process has not unfolded. fully yet so like there's still a lot. that we don't know disclosure is as. you've said like imminent and that sets. up an incentive for the people being. exposed to do something really crazy it. does but the I I think the moment is. passed good for for the real like there.

was a moment. where they could have installed you know. a a European style regime to to stop. misinformation this is this is the new. trend right remember the the Hurricanes. happened and immediately FEMA is talking. about setting up an anti- misinformation. center right uh it just happened in. California so [ __ ] crazy right I mean. you know the fact that Gavin Nome had. time to try to come up with a state.

Bureau for protecting my. reputation um but but they could really. have done. that they they could have basically put. a net over everything uh with I mean. that that's the thing that's scary about. the the European situation is is they. already have that massive infrastructure. in place to. completely control the flow of. information what people see what people.

don't see they can punish people who. step out of line and we were you know. this far away from being part of. something like that and if they were. going to do that if they had done that. and I think there there was probably. some thinking that that would have been. accomplished by 2024 if you go back and. look at some of the European unions. papers on the subject they were. anticipating that we were going to be. signatories to certain agreements like.

you know the code of practice on. disinformation that we would have our. own version by now if they had done that. then none of this would be possible you. know all these independent Outlets they. could scream to High Heavens but no one. would see it it would be like you know. no it's totally right right I mean you. you know this because you when you were. doing shows about covid well now we can. look behind the scenes and see that the. White House was demanding that Facebook. di it down they turn it down to 50% I. mean that's in print I what did you.

think when you saw that by the way when. it totally ignored it um I ignore all. coverage that in any way pertains to me. I don't want to become self-conscious so. I didn't spend you know one second. thinking about I've had a couple other. things and one other thing particular in. the last year that was like so shocking. I never thought about it again because. you just. don't I'm sure you've been through this. I mean you were of mistreated um and I'm. going to bring it up but you were. identified as disobedient and I mean.

they tried to end you I watched it yeah. so you shrug it off or whatever but you. shrug it off but from my perspective. it's always you see things clearly when. you're looking at someone else's life. sure absolutely I didn't even know you. at the time I was like why they trying. to why are they trying to kill this guy. yeah right well they were and well. that's my interpretation of it anyway um. but you can't brood on it no but but the. the fact that the mechanics they they. were trying to install the mechanisms by.

which oh yeah the all this stuff would. have been locked down and and we saw. During the covid period how how. effective it was yes uh I mean look we. the the new head of the. NIH you know Jay. bachara we mostly didn't hear about his. research right I mean this this is the. guy who can you believe j po who I love. thoroughly Man by the way in addition to. being right on the science but he's a. decent guy he's like the sweetest guy in.

the world yeah I know absolutely he's. the head of NIH yeah I know isn't that. amazing kidding yeah he he goes from. being censored to being the head of Ni. it's it's an amazing transition but the. but the thing that that's so. extraordinary about it is America would. have had a completely different idea. about lockdowns if they had. understood how infectious the disease. was was how fruitless it was to try to.

physically prevent people from you know. getting infected uh and and and how. unlikely that was to succeed and how you. know compared to all the other uh. negatives that could have happened from. keeping people at home and everything. like that like they wouldn't have made. that decision going forward but they. were able to effectively suppress that. point of view which is really scary. right I mean I mean there was real. research out there and most people. didn't see it I didn't see it until a.

year and a half later no I know right I. know so uh and that's that's what could. happen that's what could have happened. with all this stuff so I know that you. without getting too specific but you're. you know you're in touch with doctors. like on a personal level like you know. doctors just practicing you know. clinical Physicians right my wife's a. doctor okay I didn't know if you wanted. to say that you're married to a doctor. so did they know they it was kept from. them too like they didn't yeah I mean.

your average like emergency room. physician was like aware that a lot of. the co propaganda was fake well yeah I. mean I know some ER doctors as well um. and they had to go looking for for. information and it was very hard to find. and you know to this day if you you go. on Google and you go looking for things. you're not likely to find the sort of. counternarrative thing easily uh and I.

think for a lot of doctors during that. period it was frustrating because um. even peer reviewed research was not. always easy to find uh for them so yeah. uh during that period it affected the. whole question of like experts who. talked to the Press like they weren't. always informed about what was going on. or or or about different studies that. had been done and yeah yeah we had a. completely different idea about the. about the pandemic than maybe we should.

have but the point being is not so much. that that was destructive in itself. though I think it was but that it was a. proof of concept of something that that. was to come you know do you think that. as we unearth more about covid that the. biggest question of all which was what. was the point of that clearly was the. point I mean if every part of the. society was coordinated and aimed toward. the same goal which is increasing the. fear um preserving the lies about its.

origin hiding a lot of stuff and like. telling you and and pushing you toward. the vaccine so like and it was utterly. coordinated if anyone was coordinated. that was from the. churches to the schools to the media. everything everyone's on the same like. why I don't know I mean that's that's. what we have to that's why these. documents will be so fascinating to get. you think that we'll ever get to we'll. ever be able to say with some certain. your confidence like this is why they. did. that we we may not know some of the.

higher level thinking about things I. mean you're probably not going to get a. document that says look it's really. important that we do this because um if. we really stress masking then we'll have. established the precedent of that. visible symbols of Conformity or or uh. you know a positive goal for an. authoritarian regime I mean they're not. going to have that that on paper. anywhere right yes uh but there you know. there might be emails back and forth.

about how we get people to uh to follow. instructions about how how we. manage uh the problem of academic. freedom right uh they're probably going. to be emails back and forth saying we. have to change America's thinking about. this and get them to start thinking more. in the direction of trusting Authority. right this probably going to be some. stuff about that because we've already. seen that in you know Foya disclosures.

with some of you know some of these. anti- disinformation groups and that. that sort of thing so I imagine there's. there's going to be some stuff with the. White House the CDC the ni there there. there might be some things like that in. there but the higher. level uh is sort of broader. conspiratorial questions I don't I don't. know what we're going to get but I'm. fascinated to find out me too I want to. tell you about an amazing documentary. series from our friend Shawn stone.

called All the President's Men the. conspiracy against trump it is a series. of interviews with people at the very. heart of the first Trump term many of. whom are close to the heart of the. second Trump term this is their stories. about what permanent Washington tried to. do to them in many cases send them to. prison for the crime of supporting. Donald Trump their words have never been. more relevant than they are now Steve. Bannon cash Patel I'm in there All the. President's Men the conspiracy against. Trump and you will find it only on TCN.

tuckercarlson.com highly recommend. it so okay. so. Co. next okay uh Russia gate Russia gate uh. and you know the the sort of related. phenomenon of fake news intelligence. leaks designed to destroy careers which.

bleeds into kind of law fair right but. rigate. specifically. uh that's a big story that's a place. where I think that's going to be the. easiest hit for investigators because. the doc we know where the documents are. in some cases we even have them already. we just they're. redacted um so we get to look under the. redactions now now why did they start. the original investigation what was the.

what was the impetus for the July 31st. opening uh in 2016 of Crossfire. hurricane you know there's some. conflicting stories in the past did it. really come from. Britain did John Brennan really advise. the CIA to look into it or was it. something else uh why did the FBI open. an investigation into Trump specifically. after he had taken office in May of.

2017 it's just an extraordinary thing. thinking you know back to that time we. don't remember it but the FBI opened a. probe into the sitting president of the. United States uh to ask the question of. whether he was working for a foreign. power at that time and what evidence. could they have possibly had for that uh. apart from the fact that he fired Jim. Comey if there's. I mean they had no evidence they if. there's nothing under those redactions.

more than that then that itself is an. it's an extraordinary Scandal just by. itself right so the predicate for all of. this I think maybe even earlier but to. my knowledge laid in the summer of 16. with the hacking of the DNC and the the. emails from the DNC and the FBI never. investigated it never investigated the. actual you know the physical removal of. this data from their servers instead a. company called crowd strike which worked. for the Democratic party did and then.

exactly at that moment um or right. around that moment a DNC staffer was. killed in Washington DC in an apparent. robbery in which nothing was taken from. him that I happen to know for a fact the. MPD the Metropol Police Department. thought was like bizarre and they kind. of didn't believe it um a Fox News host. went on air and asked questions about. this killing why wouldn't you and the. parents of the man who was killed either.

sued or I think they sued they certainly. threatened to Sue and basically scared. the crap out of everyone so no one's. ever asked a question about it since. they hired a private investigator uh who. looked around uh in that case I remember. and there were there were some odd. details there the FBI ended up in. possession of uh of his laptop and then. why would the FBI wind up in I mean this. is a local crime right yeah this was one. of the first reasons I started to look.

at that case because I got a call from. somebody about that um and you know I. don't know why that was the case but it. is the case um but and there were people. at the DNC one of whom I know who. thought that he was murdered for. political reasons at the DNC a very high. ranking person of the DNC he told me. that and I probably should just say but. I everyone can guess who it is who. informed on this but I don't want to. betray confidence but I'm I'm not making. this up.

and I don't know what happened but like. as far as I know not one person has. looked into that in the. media no and you know e even if it is. just an unsolved murder uh of a type. that they normally solve. um the whole situation that that whole. timeline was very strange it doesn't. really make sense the you know the. hacking of uh of the. DNC the bringing in of crowd strike the.

when the information was released uh. online they never really proved that. case but they immediately made. inferences about it and there was a an. incredibly sophisticated kind of public. campaign to create this narrative that. you know upon closer examination turns. out not to be true uh so we got to go. back and find out what did exactly. happen there um why did they why did.

they order this Crossfire hurricane prob. why were they sending informant in after. Trump um or people in his orbit uh and. we know they did like and who were all. those informant it' be interesting I. have some suspicions yeah well we know. we know who some of them were right um. but we don't know who all of all of them. were I mean I I did a story to the. effect that the the people in the house. intelligence committee who were looking. at this you know cash Patel's initial uh. probe that they came up with a number.

that it was 26 different uh people who. were um being investigated in in Trump's. or. orbit no matter what happened it's it's. a huge story because it's it's a. political Espionage story it's not. unlike flutter gate really uh ex and. they and we've we've laughed it off uh. or the you know the mainstream press is. has Shrugged and snorted at the idea. that this is a scandal that needs to be.

um taken seriously but it does uh it. absolutely does just because it's Donald. Trump doesn't mean you can ignore the. FBI conducting political. investigations uh willly neillian. inventing predicates to to look into. people's campaigns and using fisa and. all all kinds of other crazy can I say. crazy [ __ ] uh I mean that's stuff all. nuts and we we need to find out exactly. what happened with that and that is one.

of the reasons I think that people are. nervous about this weaponization of. government probe because it's absolutely. going to look in that direction yes and. you know that's one of the first things. they're they're going to to look at is. who was behind that uh you know who. cooked up the steel dossier how was that. released uh you know and then. there's the whole question of you know. leading up to impeachment and the the.

leaks that were done um a lot of them. were kind of illegal on their face right. like you can't leak signals intelligence. to uh newspapers and it was done. repeatedly during that happed to me they. did it to me right yeah exactly the NSA. read my text and leaked him to the New. York Times twice right right um yeah and. they you know admitted it one time but. it was under fisa so it was like you. which which is by the way hilarious.

because the the initially they were. denying that it even happened right uh. and then of course later it turns out uh. it was more advantageous to leak the. contents so but people had developed. they developed very short memories. during this time period they were not. able to retain information among other. things because journalists got out of. the habit of repeating the story that. used that was one of the things that we. were taught um you know when I I was. taught growing up when you're doing a. story about anything you have to recount.

all of the facts as if the the reader. has never encountered the story before. each story should stand alone yes. exactly you have to you have to retell. the whole thing so that they don't have. to go looking for another story exactly. to to find out what this means exactly. and one of the subtle little changes. that happened to the media business in. the last eight years is they stopped. doing that they would tell you that's. fascinating right they would tell you. the thing that happened that day and.

they wouldn't tell you all this. backstory that you needed to know to to. really understand um what you were. reading and so yeah I I. think we're going to have the. opportunity now to see these things laid. out in full and you know in hindsight. and that's hopefully going to be able to. persuade people who who didn't see see. it the first time that's such a. fascinating observation which I've never. heard before or thought of but isn't it.

isn't it true it's so true it's so true. and so everything's out of context right. yeah there there's a a certain element. of dot connecting required in journalism. like why am I telling you this why does. it matter how does it connect to things. that happen other things that happened. or may happen like e even simple things. like when you know. the if Anthony fouchy comes out and says. well masks are important because of Acts. well you have to put in the the timeline.

of what he originally said about that. yes um or you know Joe Joe Biden saying. um you know we have. to correct misinformation because. they're killing people and you got to. point out that they were wrong about. things themselves that the that the or. that the Biden Administration itself was. uh de Amplified uh by by some of these. um platforms accident but they were. right um but yeah they they just left. out a lot of backstory and we have to.

get back into the the business of. telling people the whole story from the. beginning fascinating yeah um okay so. Russia gate Russia gate uh we I mean and. that's one of the reasons why the the. pardon of Adam Schiff is kind of. interesting um because he's a central. figure of uh of both the j6 committee. but but also the Russia gate story um. and you know he he was somebody who was. giving interviews saying that preemptive.

pardons should never be given but. whatever um yeah Russia gate is a thing. then there's the whole question of uh. laware right and the effort to make sure. that Biden faced no opposition at all uh. in his reelection campaign and this is. here I'm not just talking about um you. know Donald Trump in the lawsuit to to. prevent him from being on the ballot. because of the fourth un amend and all.

that this extends to even to groups like. No Labels or the green party or Dean. Phillips or marann Williamson or Cornell. West that there was an. extraordinary calculated effort to. prevent competition now yes that's not. necessarily illegal parties can do. whatever they want uh internally. but it's still fascinating that there. there had to have been some kind of.

coordinated campaign if if there's any. communication between the White House. say and the groups that were. suing um uh you know no labels or RFK or. you know issuing challenges No Labels. went through this extraordinary incident. where somebody created a dummy no labels. site uh and and it had a big picture of. Donald Trump on it so they would try to.

associate No Labels with Trump and. there's a lawsuit uh going on about it. right. now what was the real origin of that. like you know who who who financed that. whole thing I mean I I think there are a. lot of stories about little tiny dirty. tricks that are that are going to be. coming out well also like the the main. question was who makes these decisions. so if the Democratic part is running the. United States which they have for 4. years I think we can say that what does. that mean who's running the Democratic. party right I mean I would imagine it's.

a coalition of you know elected offic. you know Chuck. Schumer big. fundraisers right M you know um Jeffrey. kenberg and I don't know Obama I guess. but but who who really is running this. who's on the Central Committee right and. and how is that done how how how was the. coordination manag with these sort of. legal action committees that were Mass. filing suits about everything from you.

know the the ballot access issue to. there were Clan act suits that were. filed against people I mean um did that. have any connection to people who are. actually in office if if it did you know. then we have another corruption. situation involved but yeah the the. larger question of who who was managing. all this stuff uh because it clearly. wasn't Joe Biden that's who runs the. country who who who runs the country. that's don't in a democracy we have a.

right to know right that you know our. mutual friend Walter kerna um talked. about this saying that this was the. first time that we had a president where. that had a sign on his desk basically. that said the buck does not stop here no. right uh we we don't know where the buck. stopped during this period And. so that that's a fascinating question. but the whole whole you know War gaming. of of the last election season there are.

a lot of stories people don't even. remember this like New Hampshire held a. primary right people went and they voted. in the New Hampshire primary uh and then. the results were cancelled and they held. a second nominating event on a Saturday. night months later where a bunch of. officials got together and they just. decided to allocate the the delegates uh. themselves uh like I'd never heard of. that before just cancelling an election. and sort of redoing it in a in a closed.

meeting like how does that happen and. just turning the spoils over to somebody. else I I I mean I think it ended up. mostly having the same result but for. some reason they they they they held the. second contest uh it's just very strange. you know um why that happened so that we. got to get into um you. know then there's the whole question of. the investigation of the Trump. assassination incidents we heard nothing.

about that it was the most extraordinary. news story that I've ever I mean apart. from the disappearing president and the. Mysterious nomination and covid. uh you know presidential candidate and. ex-president gets shot and the story's. dead within like 48 Hours uh and all you. read in the news news from the. FBI uh there were these comments saying. that they don't have any motive evidence.

we've done a 100 interviews um but we. don't know anything about why this. happened or you know what was going on. there do you believe that I I I have a. very hard time believing that there's. nothing interesting in he was kind of. your classic 20-year-old American kid. with no social media presence whatsoever. ever you know right and it is a very. typical American story where one day you. just wake up and decide to die. assassinating a presidential candidate. for no reason right it's like it's like.

your first joint yeah your first. joint yeah um and and then this this the. second one I mean you know the the Ryan. Ralph thing that that's not weird at all. like I just flew into Florida last night. I don't think I could have got gotten my. hands on you know a Chinese made SKS. semi-automatic rifle without help I mean. I I don't. know that's being a little.

conspiratorial but look there are a lot. of he met with the members of Congress. he was lived in. Ukraine what and we know that our Intel. agencies working through the Ukrainian. intell agencies have murdered all these. people and tried to murder all these. people including some I know personally. and so that's a like that's just a fact. and he he was there with them but this. had nothing to do and by the way are. those the only two attempts on Donald. Trump's life do you think during this. campaign season I don't think so so I.

don't why don't we know more about that. I don't know why we don't know more. about that yeah right. so and I I mean I've you know talked to. the Trump people and Trump himself and I. I I'm being sincere I really don't have. a sense of what they think of all of. that I know that in public they haven't. been anxious to talk about it at all so. I've talked to some of them. and you know I've heard uh a lot of. anger about this that you know and I.

think this is this is the impetus for. these investigations I think the. probably the second attempt um was a. last draw for some of the people on his. staff and uh and you know it's part of. the reason why I think they're going to. be very public about this uh it can't. come it can't come too soon I I really. think and and I will say you know. whatever people watching think of of. trump I know for a dead certain fact. that a lot of the people who work for. him really like him personally so I.

think they are mad about it they're. they're very mad about it and. and and then sorry just to finish off. the the the censorship thing um that is. going to be a major investigation. there's there's at least two that I know. of uh that are already. underway uh you know the government. Affair the you know Rand Paul's. committee uh government oversight. committee in uh in the Senate they they. really want to do a big thing like a. government files type of thing where it.

would be like the Twitter files but for. the whole federal government basically. uh. and I I think there are so many. different wings of the government that. were. involved uh in what we got to see in the. Twitter files which you know to follow. the the example of what I just said I. have to repeat what this is you when. neon musk bought Twitter he opened up. Twitter uh Twitter's internal. correspondence and we got to see that. there was this big uh bureaucracy with.

government pressuring platforms like. Twitter and Facebook to censor content. but we only got to see a little bit of. it and I think what's going to come out. is you know how extensive it really was. what agencies were really involved in it. um you know how many people uh were were. committ committed to that effort what. also were we negotiating with uh the.

European Union to be part of the Digital. Services act um was the state department. doing that uh you know I think so. there's going to be big haven't followed. it can you just describe the Digital. Services act the Digital Services Act is. like the it's like the wet dream of. every sensor in the world right. basically it mandates that every uh. internet platform. abide by the recommendations of these. people called trusted flaggers who are.

basically licensed content reviewers who. look on at things on social media and if. they see a narrative that they don't. like um they will elevate it to the. platform and if the platform does not. abide by the recommendations they get. crippling enormous fines and this is one. of the reasons why there was a a dispute. between uh Elon Musk and Europe uh about. whether or not he was following these. rules closely closely enough this just.

came into effect last year uh but it's. it's an extremely effective way to to uh. regulate speech because it doesn't. require the government to actually do it. it's the private platform that actually. commits of course the censorship and. this third-party methodology which is. specifically by the way what uh what. Donald Trump referenced in his Free. Speech executive order we we don't want.

that to happen we're g to not allow that. uh they already have the full-blown. Death Star version in Europe of that. right and so the investigation here in. the United States is going to basically. uncover how far along were we into. developing the same kind of. thing the Twitter file suggested that we. we're already doing it informally. and illegally probably uh but we want to. find out exactly how with Snopes and all.

the other fact Checkers yes all the. factchecking organizations right uh you. know sometimes that was done. informally uh by. inference or it was done through NOS. that made recommendations but I think. the really dangerous stuff is when you. had State Department agencies like you. the global engagement Center or the. FBI's foreign influence task force. making direct recommendations to these. platforms or the White House in your. case um you know we're going to find out.

all these communications not just little. pieces of them what about um the US. government the Intel agency's control of. Wikipedia which basically is our. Collective memory at this point it's. elevated by Google it's the top of every. search it is the only history most. people will ever read and it's. controlled by the US government to. disappear in convenient facts yeah I. mean Wikipedia has a very um Advanced.

system for regulating what gets into. Wikipedia Pages uh if you if it's not a. certain kind of source it doesn't get on. there there was a bizarre incident last. year where the real clear. politics uh you know polling average. which is a tool that reporters have been. using for almost two decades they kind. of left it off their their page um of. polling average sites uh because they. didn't like the page I guess I don't.

know but yeah I I think we have to get. some clarity about what happened there. obviously the former head of. Wikipedia uh is now in a or a senior. position in. NPR um the deputy the or the co. government media job to another yeah. exactly and the COO of NPR is the former. head of this thing called the Aspen. Commission on information disorder which. is one of the groups that we. investigated in the Twitter files was.

sort of heavily into this whole content. moderation question so the merging of. State media with platforms and. regulation of sourcing and all that. stuff that's probably going to come out. too kind of weird that the head of the. Aspen Institute wrote the biography of. Elon Musk isn't it right yeah exactly. yeah the Walt Walter Pinkus right Isaac. is Sor Walter pinkis was the CIA. reporter at the Washington cut that I'm. sorry no no no it's just funny you.

remember Walter pinkis yeah Walter Ison. yeah yeah yeah no that it is weird the. Aspen Institute I mean they played a. very strange role in the whole. censorship story but um but yeah so what. happens to the you said the media as. constituted as dead but I mean like the. Episcopal Church like they have enormous. like shells left you know what I mean. like the church has died but the they've. got great churches great buildings what.

do you what happens to like the. Washington Post in NBC News it still has. bureaus and CNN and like what what. happens to these. things they're going to struggle I think. to get audience back you already see. that the strategy of some of them is to. try to Pander to the audiences that they. betrayed. previously uh uh yeah there there was a. funny episode over last weekend where. NBC and Saturday Night Live you know.

they finally did a a a joke picking on. Rachel mattow it wasn't particularly. funny but it was a signal that okay we. we're going to suck up to this group now. right as opposed to the other one which. is so loathsome right and that but. Rachel mat was not the core know. whatever you think of Rachel mattow. she's just like advertises herself as. Rachel madow you know one person's. opinions that's funny you sounded like. her for a secondary yeah well I know her. and I I've never been mad at her I.

couldn't disagree more I know sure she's. attacked me a lot I wouldn't know but. I'm not mad at Rachel matow I'm I'm mad. at kend delanian and like no of course. you know what I mean people who pose as. reporters who are actually just. mouthpieces for the Intel world of. course and my only point is that just by. you know. changing their the direction of their BS. they're not going win back audience. right uh people you know and this is. something that I that I've noticed since.

I've been in the. business people in media continually. underestimate audiences they they think. that they're much stupider than they. really are um I remember when I covered. uh Wall Street I was constantly told. that you you can't do these big stories. on credit default swaps and all these. other things because audiences don't. want to hear about it they'll they'll. Turn the page but it's not true people. have a great hunger to find out things. and they have a much stronger ability to.

understand things than most media people. imagine and so when they do these sort. of. transparent uh exercises in lying and PR. and political propaganda and they think. that people won't notice it makes it. worse the the numbers are going to go. down rather than up when they start. totally don't you think I mean well it's. just interesting I actually think it's. more Sinister even than you described so. the two topics after you know 30 years.

in the in television the two topics that. they like never wanted to do they always. wanted to do stuff about [ __ ] or. race or you know whatever all that stuff. but they never wanted to do economics or. foreign policy ever right and their view. was or their their stated view was the. audience doesn't care and then I get. fired and start doing foreign policy. stuff and it gets crazy numbers and I. only do it purely because I'm interested. that's it I was always interested and. I'm also interested in economics not an. expert but I think it matters that's. that's why I'm interested right you do a.

story like. that you you blow out of the water all. the pap that they do so it turns out. there is a deep reservoir of Interest. among viewers and readers for these. stories and I'm starting to think that. maybe the people who run the networks. where I worked they just didn't want to. address that stuff because there was a. consensus on it that they agreed with. and that they didn't want to challenge. absolutely you think so oh I 100% I. think that I think that the especially. when you're talking about um you know.

interventionist military policies. whether or not they've been. effective uh try try pitching stories to. you know one of the big newspapers about. you know maybe some kind of downside to. an invasion or an occupation or the. expansion of you know a thousand. military bases in the Middle East or. whatever it is drone Warfare like you. know you're gonna have a hard time. selling that one right but they did it.

in the sest way I mean it went right. over my head for decades they did it not. by saying you know we just don't agree. you know we we have one perspective on. that and we're going to stick with it. that's a straightforward way to to. explain it which I can digest they. instead said no the audience just. doesn't care and you're basically. putting the business at risk by covering. things that people have no interest in. so get back to Natalie Holloway or. whatever the drama of the moment was was. yep and I believed that I believed it I. mean I just assume people just aren't. interested I guess I internalized the.

our audience's dumb position which they. had for the whole time I worked there. yeah and it's it's worse in TV than it. is in print but um but it shouldn't be. right and but and I got the same thing I. mean not not so much at Rolling Stone. but I remember we did one story our plan. was to do one story on what caused the. financial crisis and we got such an. overwhelming response because it wasn't. anywhere people could not read.

anywhere uh what happened to the economy. in 2008 there there was not a rational. explanation that people could read and. so well you did Big I guess numbers are. not applicable to a magazine but that. got I mean your stories on that were. widely read because you're one of the. only people doing it right but it wasn't. so much what what I was doing it was. just it was just the fact of you know. how does this work who was really. profiting by it um what happened to the. people who bought these homes etc etc.

just basic questions and people wanted. to know and and as you discover they. want to know other things where are they. spending the money that that I send. every year that goes to the Pentagon. that's right right how is how is it. disappear into a black hole and it's not. auditable and that's okay and I you know. it's funny I remember getting back in. the summer late August. of 2001 from Maine i' been in Maine and. you know on just on vacation going back.

to work and our I was at CNN then and we. were wall to wall literally wall to--all. on a story about a congressman from. Bakersfield California Kern County. called Gary Condit and the question was. did he murder his intern Shandra leevy. and then later whatever in case anyone. cares turns out she was killed by an. illegal alien from El Salvador called. ingamar guend he killed a couple other. people I think anyway whatever that was. the story but at the time we were fully. immersed in this question of is this.

moderate Democrat from Bakersfield a. murderer and I mean we did specials on. it it's all we did and then that. September that was interrupted by 911. and I remember thinking at the time like. 9/11 came out of nowhere there was no. kind of backstory it just happened it. was like truly like the least expected. thing that ever happened right in. retrospect I think were there things. going on in the world long bigger trends. that maybe we should you know as a news.

company we should have been paying. attention to kind of prepare people for. the at least the idea that like wow. something bad could happen because. there's a lot going on. abroad yeah I think if you had visited. parts of the Middle East back then you. would we had the coal bombing and like. the Saudis where we had bases and places. that were clearly very provocative for. no real reason fatwa the the Kenyan. bombing yes right exactly there was a. lot going on and we just kind of ignored. all of it but we didn't just ignore it. we ignored it in like this manic way.

like must cover Gary Condit and I'm not. a conspiracy nut Matt but you do sort of. Wonder. like what was that yeah those were the. good old days when when the the Manas. were things like the summer of the shark. right remember that do I remember I. think I I think I participated in it. should you. swim but but then you get 911 like this. one you know sort of beautiful fall. morning and everything changes and it's.

like I I do think it's fair to ask even. if there's no intent involved like how. did we like what should we have done. differently to at least give people the. sense that there were highly organized. well-funded elements abroad that hated. us like I just did not know that and. most people didn't yeah and it it didn't. we do that honestly and it came as a. shock to a lot of people a complete. shock I don't were you in the country. when that happened no I was I was in. Russia uh and well so at least you have. that excuse you know you're living in.

another country I lived in Washington DC. covering the news for C I mean I hosted. a show on CNN and I had no idea that. like oh that's a terrifying feeling. right to to be you got to cover. something that you have no back. background in well there was no covering. it there was just watching it kind of. right and there's never actually been. any covering of it no one's ever really. covered 911 like what was that yeah. exactly and what followed it yeah. exactly yeah well I we did cover that. but like the 911 like how do how exactly. did that happen we have all these law.

enforcement and intelligence agencies. protecting us and they had no idea that. they're you know dozens and dozens and. dozens of you know the 19 hijackers but. then all the support people living in. our country training getting money from. some we never really like what anyway I. don't know why I'm going off on that but. it's like no one ever asked the basic. questions right right and you know there. there were a lot of people who didn't. ask basic questions in the last eight.

years I've noticed including me I guess. cuz a lot of the things you just said. were like yeah what ever happened to. that well there's it becomes. overwhelming after a while right I mean. you know the 50th time they tell you. that democracy is going to end in 10. minutes or you know you're going to die. if you don't you know take this medicine. or what or whatever it is or you know. your kids are going to die uh it. emotionally it wears on people and it.

becomes very difficult I mean I think. this was a factor in it it was a factor. in a lot of the corruption stories. because audiences were not were they. were not going to be receptive to. alternative versions of what they had. just heard because it was such an. emotionally wrenching experience for. them so it's going to take a while for. people to digest a lot of these things. you know I think it's happening slowly. but um but what's going to be.

interesting about this period is that. there's going to be this Avalanche of. primary material that's that's G that's. going to come out and I'm fastc I can't. wait for you're going to need to hire. more staff to keep up with it all yeah. Absolut probably probably that's the. case uh and it's going to be a fun time. for for journalists like me but just. just as a citizen I can't wait to read. it you know so can I just one last. question of your your reporting is. marked by its command of detail I would. say I mean it is I read it so I know.

yeah no but of like a lot of detail like. a lot of detail and so you look at. things I I kind of like you know I'm not. a detail guy you are what name one like. tiny detail that you are personally. obsessed with and maybe mildly. embarrassing embarrassed to admit you're. obsessed with but like what's the one. thing that you just you want to know. like you that you've been wondering. about I I mean I I I think the thing. that happened last year with that.

frenzied week in July yeah with with. Biden. and uh you know in in the the lying. about the poll numbers and the the phony. the clearly planted stories about Nancy. Pelosi uh lying about the poll numbers. what part well there look there were. stories that was ahead in the polls that. that came out as they were telling us. that he had to drop out because the poll. numbers were so dire uh NPR did a story.

like. virtually I believe it was this a couple. of days after uh the debate I'll have to. go back and look at this but there but. yeah there were stories that that that. he was doing fine in the polls and and. of course we later found out from Biden. staffers that they said they never had. um I'm sorry that that was about K they. never had internal polling showing comma. ahead yes even though there were scads. of stories telling us the opposite which.

is but for me the the the the story that. I I just can't get past is what happened. in that one week uh and and how did they. how did they manufacture that whole. thing without anybody showing any kind. of curiosity about it um you know had. the media been so completely paper. trained by that moment that they I I I. guess so right uh but you know well it's. the same but it's the same impulse that.

maintains discipline in Washington and. in the media which is commitment to. party first and what is so that is the. one thing you like all the things I. disagree with the Democratic party and. some in the Republican party on policy. like have all kinds of disagreements. like I think that they think this got it. but the one thing I really can't relate. to is the loyalty to party what is that. I I never understood that you know like. what you're going to agree with a a. bunch of people on everything that they.

do and you're going to support that it's. one thing for politicians to act that. way but I I cannot understand it in a. media person you think that's a defining. fact of like our life is this commitment. to to party well right now we have the. situation where the only versions of. things that you get are essentially. party yes explanations and that's why uh. it's so. so interesting that there's this sort of. intermediate podcast space where people.

are exploring things from all different. directions and that's where all the. people are going I don't think it's a. coincidence can that last I think it can. I think what what's going to happen is. you're you're going to have new. institutions that are built up around. that that are that are just going to. find new ways to then you can't have as. long as that lasts you can't have. authoritarian role right oh yeah and uh. and that was proven I mean. look the handful of podcasts that a lot.

of people chuckled about had a huge. impact in the LA on the last election. and you know what sh shame on those. media people who laughed at those. podcasts because among other things they. had lower numbers than a lot of those. podcasts like significantly lower most. of them yeah right and you know they're. snobs about it they say oh well that's. you we we have a better quality of. audience no you you you just are not. convincing that's they actually they. have a much lower quality of audience. you know your average Rogan listener is.

way smarter than your average cable news. viewer like sorry right yeah and and. they're more willing and partly because. they watch shows like Joe Rogan which. which ask them to entertain multiple. points of view on things right that's. kind of the whole idea you you'll see. somebody there are lots of people who go. on the Rogen show that I disagree with. me too but I hear it you know um and. that's the whole point right is you get. to hear different points of view and.

that's been excluded from this other. form of media this kind of. bifurcated red blue landscape um which. doesn't work anymore and is in collapse. but um I I just think that this this. period now uh it's going to be great for. launching the this New Media that's. necessary because they're going to have. all this material to work with and. because it's going to be all documents. people are going to trust it right in.

the same way that they trusted the. Twitter files I didn't have anything to. say about it I just sort of put it out. there but uh all these new these. independent organs are going to look at. this these reams of material and they're. going to discuss it and pass it around. and that's going to be how the public is. educated which is great I love it it's. the best right man put me in such a. better mood mat T thank you no thank you. seriously I mean I I I think you would. do this for free I get that feeling.

absolutely would I love it thanks Tucker. thank you appreciate. [Music]. it so it turns out that YouTube is. suppressing this show on one level. that's not surprising that's what they. do but on another level it's shocking. with everything that's going on in the. world right now all the change taking. place in our economy and our politics. with the wars on the cusp of fighting. right now Google has decided you should. have less information rather than more. and that is totally wrong it's immoral.

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