Margaret Roberts Exposes the True Story of the Oklahoma City Bombing and the Ongoing Cover-Up

So you're I I would say one of the living experts  on the Oklahoma City bombing, which to some of us. seems like just the other day, but it was 30 years  ago this year. So for those not steeped in the. details of the story, could just if you wouldn't  mind giving us the overview, what was the Oklahoma. City bombing? Sure. The Oklahoma City bombing was  and is America's deadliest domestic terror attack. It happened on a Wednesday morning in  1995, an April morning. Out of nowhere,

9 in the morning at the Federal Building, the  Alfred Pierra Federal Building, nine stories tall, a devastating explosion hit the building  and killed 168 people who were working. or visiting the building that morning. The  front of the building looked like ice cream.

that had been scooped out. It was just a a  scene of unbelievable destruction and death. and blood and confusion. And the entire  nation was left just a gasast that this. could have happened in America's heartland.  [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music].

It was it it was shocking and there was immediate  there was confusion. I I remember that morning. well in April and people immediately went on CNN  to say that Muslims had done it. That was that was.

the the first understanding was this was some kind  of Islamic terror attack. Uh and then we were told. that no, it was really one guy with an accomplice  who wasn't there. The guy was called Timothy. McVey. He had a rider truck full of ammonium  nitrate fertilizer mixed with diesel fuel, I. think. Yes. And um that's when most of us learned  that that that mixture could produce an explosion. like this. Now, that's I think well known, but  that's what that's when most of us learned it. And.

um he was a white supremacist. He was mad at the  government. He was mad about Waco and Ruby Ridge. And he's a former uh he was a veteran. And but he  was part of a network of white supremacists and. and then we spent the next year or two hearing  about this. Bill Clinton often referred to this. um and then he was executed and that was kind  of the end of the story. So that's that's the. the layman's understanding of Oklahoma City.  Yes. And it was quite an amazing couple of days.

in lightning fast speed. The FBI found Timothy  McVey um tracing the axle from the rider truck to. um a motel. 275 miles north in Kansas, uh, where  McVey had checked in to the motel using his own.

name. And pretty soon, just within a matter of a  couple of days, the FBI found its way to Perry, Oklahoma, about 75 miles north of Oklahoma City,  where McVey had been arrested on traffic charges, driving his Mercury car, the getaway car, without  a license plate. And the officer, the arresting.

officer found that he was carrying a concealed  weapon. U McVey was very polite the entire time. U there was no thought that McVey was connected  to the bombing. The highway patrolman took him. into the Perry jail and he sat there. He was on  his way to a bond hearing and to be released when.

the FBI through this incredible speed of their  investigation found him in Perry, Oklahoma on. Friday afternoon for that now famous perp walk out  the door without a vest in his orange jumpsuit and. his thousandmile stare and The gathered crowd  around chanting baby killer. That's what we.

remember of our first sight of Timothy McVey, the  suspected bomber. Boy, the FBI is good. I mean, they got him within days on the basis of a truck  axle. How did they how did they say they did that? They they track they tracked the the VIN number on  the truck axle to Ryder in Florida and Ryder had a.

record of that truck being rented out of Junction  City, Kansas. And so they went to the rental. agency and sure enough put two and two together.  The identification was made from first the rider, the rental truck agency where McVey had rented the  truck. They remembered him and they made a conit.

sketch of the two men, not one but two men who had  been present for the rental of the truck. And with. the sketches, the FBI spanned out in Junction City  and found that motel where McVey had registered. under his own name. What do you mean two men? Who  was the other man? The other man who eventually.

would emerge as the mystery man of the Oklahoma  City bombing was never identified. But the. uh staff at Elliot's body shop where they rented  the rider truck 2 days before the bombing on a. Monday. They all said there was a second man there  and he was described as um being very muscular, having a tattoo, having dark hair and just  standing to the side while um John Doe one who.

called himself uh Robert Clling rented the truck.  Okay. So, and Robert Clling was Timothy McVey. Robert Clling was John Doe one believed to have  been Timothy McVey who in the end was convicted. sentenced to death and executed pretty pretty  short order right when was he executed he was. executed in 2001 that that is short order for a  capital crime you know for sure so 6 years later.

so he's been um dead for 24 years the terror  attack was 30 years ago when you A the the man. with him was never identified. Do you mean to this  day? To this day. Never identified. And really. the abiding mystery of the case. I'm confused.  How could you have the biggest terror attack,

domestic terror attack in US history, destroy,  you know, the downtown of a major American city. and you don't over 30 years you don't find the  second guy? That's a great question. One of the. truest observations ever. It's hard to have  a good time if you're stuck in bad boots. And. that's why you need Tokovas. They make it easy for  anybody, including people like us. Hardly experts. in boot fashion, to find the perfect boot. Here  at TCN, we love Tokova's boots. Everybody's got.

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ordinary people in Oklahoma City who eventually  were interviewed uh by the FBI about the bombing. run. 24 eyewitnesses saw Timothy McVey with  a second man in the rider truck. So we know. he was there as the as as you can remember the  investigation was a very big deal for a very long.

time. Um journalism covered it and journalists  reported top journalists reported that the. um the FBI had surveillance videotape because  of course that's what they do on in a in a big. crime like this. They went out and collected  all the videotape and they had John Doe 2 with.

Timothy McVey on videotape delivering the bomb.  They had videotape of the bomb exploding. The. preliminary hearing um for the the case was  held, you know, a week or so after the crime. And the videotapes were discussed there. The FBI  agent on the witness stand um admitted that the. FBI had videotape of the delivery of at least  of the truck on its way to deliver the bomb. So.

we we know that John Doe 2 was real. Well, now  I'm really confused because I I don't I mean, why is John Doe too not at the top of the  FBI most wanted list as a perpetrator of the. country's worst domestic terror attack in its  history? Pretty soon, and in puzzling fashion,

considering that this was the biggest manhunt  in history, it was a global manhunt. There was a. $2 million reward offered for the identification  and capture of John Doe 2. But pretty soon, within a couple of months, the FBI  began to back away from John Doe 2. uh they produced a a new theory that John Doe 2  was a case of mistaken identity that the that the.

staffer that was the basis of the sketch at the  body shop was mistaken that he was really talking. about a completely innocent soldier who So to I'm  sorry to interrupt but just to to hold this up. Th this is the flyer produced by the FBI after  the terror attack, right? So I believe that turned.

out to be Tim McVey right there. Believed to be  Timothy McVey. Our investigation would raise some. questions about that. But yes, a a lookalike for  Timothy McVey or a lookalike for but at least we. can kind of account for this guy whether it's the  correct accounting or not. Absolutely. This is the. sketch of John Doe number two. this. But this is  the F this is produced by the feds. This is FBI. FBI. Okay. So, um, and this person has never been  identified. No one's looking for him. And the FBI.

is now saying he never existed. That's correct.  Okay. On on what given that you had um dozens. of people identify this person as a person, you  know, as being alive and being with Tim McVey, dozens of people. Um, and given that the FBI  itself said, "Yeah, he existed," on what basis are. they now saying he never existed? Well, a couple  of months later, they introduced a new story.

This was that the man believed to be John Doe  too was this innocent soldier who had come into. the body shop the day before and had somehow been  mistakenly timetraveled into their into the memory. of the mechanic who gave the the info about the  sketch. but that it was all just a mistake that. Timothy McVey was by himself. It was never a very  credible explanation. They identified this. Yes,

they identified him. They talked to him. They um  they found that, you know, he had the uh baseball. cap that some of the witnesses had described  John Do2 wearing and he was in with a friend. So the two the two of them were together and it  was somewhat it was somewhat credible or credible.

enough and they were very certain and confident  about it and the story began to change. So, they. said, if if I'm following this, that actually some  other guy and a buddy walked into the same body. shop around the same time and the guy at the body  shop just misremembered and thought that that guy. was with Tim McVey, but he wasn't. That's right.  And so, the FBI is now saying that Tim McVey did.

this alone. Yes. Okay. What? How do they explain  away the eyewitness testimony of people who were. there at the scene and saw them both in the truck  together? Tucker, that is one of the abiding. questions never answered about this case. And as  a matter of fact, years later, after the some of. the controversies that would, you know, develop,  one of the top case commanders, Danny Coulson,

conceded that this single fact of 24 eyewitnesses  who saw John Do2 in the bomb truck with Timothy. McVey is not something that can just be explained  away with this new story. I have an idea. Let's. go to the videotape. There was videotape um that  was admitted. You said on the stand by a federal.

officer that they had the videotape. So that would  just show where where is the video? Have you seen. the videotape? No one Tucker has seen that  videotape outside the FBI in 30 years. They've. never produced that. They've never produced it.  And imagine this was an an incredibly highprofile. mass murder trial. Um those images were not shown  at the trial. The the videotape was not shown at.

the trial. It was not shown at the trial. No. Why?  Well, that's never been credibly answered by the. FBI. Okay. So I just want to start as big picture  as we can before we get into the details. But I'm. already coming just as a ignorant person who sort  of sort of remembers all of this. We're coming to. points that are just like don't make any sense at  all on the most basic level and there are many of.

these. I'm aware I'm now aware. Um but I want to  go into this slowly because I think this is not. one of this is not the Kennedy assassination. This  is not something on which there have been 50 books. written. I mean, you have written a great book on  this, maybe one or two others, but most people, I. don't think as of right now, summer of 2025, have  revisited this in their heads and said, "Actually, the Warren Commission was fake." Like, that's not  that hasn't happened. Absolutely right. Okay. So, you have um now the claim by the FBI that McVey  did this himself. He may have had he had help.

from this friend of his called Terry Nichols who  is to this day still in prison serving life. Um. but he was not in Oklahoma City that day is my  understanding. Correct. Correct. Right. He was in. Kansas. He was in Kansas. So they're saying that  Tim McVey did the the actual bombing totally by. himself. Rented the bomb truck in Junction City  by himself. drove to Oklahoma City by himself,

delivered and detonated the bomb by himself.  That's the state's that's the the government's. case and escaped by himself. What do they say  his motive was? He was enraged at the government. for its overreach at Waco, which was the the  government um assault on the branch devidian.

compound in Waco, Texas. two years before to the  day to the day. April 19, 1993 was the the FBI. the final assault after an 80some day standoff two  years before Oklahoma City bombing. That was where. Janet Reno killed all those kids. Yes, there were  children. There were heavy casualties for children.

as well as adults. And they said Tim McVey was  so mad about that that he decided to bomb the. federal building in Oklahoma City. Any indication  as to why Oklahoma City? Well, o Oklahoma City is. was central to an anti-government movement in  the Midwest. Um, so it it was it was a it was.

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um, the FBI backs off of its claim and then  completely erases its claim that there was. a second perpetrator involved working with Tim  McVey. How hard did they look for John Doe number. two? Well, it was a global manhunt. Uh $2 million  reward offered uh all over America. People were. being stopped in the street um detained in in a  few instances arrested. So they were looking hard.

for a month. Who was Tim McVey exactly? Timothy  McVey. Timothy McVey was a 26-year-old Bronze Star. exs soldier um from the Desert Storm operation in  Iraq and he had come back home in 1992. This was.

three years before the bombing and kind of kicked  around his uh his home his where he the home. where he grew up in uh upstate New York. Had a  couple of jobs uh security jobs, security uh work.

um but never really never really gripped into a  future after the army. There is a story about he. was an a a great soldier, an intense, passionate  soldier and he was offered a try out for special. forces at the end of his tour and um he he de  he had developed blisters on his feet. So the.

story went and couldn't make the physical part  of the try out. So um he he washed out of of. special forces and that had been his dream. That's  that's what he that's where he always saw himself. So when he came back home, security guard work  wasn't satisfying. He was living with his dad. Uh,

and he was just he was he was pretty aimless at  at the time. So, how did he get from um being an. unemployed security guard, Bronstar winning  veteran living with his dad in upstate New. York to blowing up a federal building in Oklahoma  City? Yeah, that was a a really curious passage. He became very uh political and um he headed  south to Florida and hooked up with one of.

the kind of mysterious connections that we know  about in the next couple of years of his life, a an retired gun dealer named Roger Moore.  and he basically went on the gun show circuit. Um he would he carried with him uh copies of  the Turner Diaries which is this anti-semitic uh.

apocalyptic novel that um he was very  much and and not just anti-semitic but. but anti-government. It was just it's basically  the story of an insurrection. Um and he would. um take this with him to gun shows and try to you  know sell it or convince people to read it. he was.

trying to convince all his friends to read the um  the Turner diaries and he just floated around uh. it in without knowing what really was going on in  Timothy McVeyy's life for the two years that led. up to the bombing. It's it's really a puzzle. And  he just he he lived this road warrior life staying.

in motel unexplained. Um I've heard somebody  account for like it would have cost someone in. at in those dollars in those days like $50,000 to  live this way. Um but we only know of him having. earned like $5,000. So, where did he get the rest  of the money? Unaccounted for. But he just he. drove d, you know, thousands of miles, stayed in  motel, hit gun show circuits, and eventually two.

years later, um, plus some months, uh, bombed  the federal building. So, we know at the time. um so the government had committed a number of  a couple at least of high-profile massacres of. conservative Christian white people. One at  Ruby Ridge and one at Waco. And so they were,

as I recall, they were very concerned about  backlash from conservative Christian white. Americans becoming radicalized white supremacist,  neo-Nazis, what you know, whatever that means. But. like radical anti-government white people, that  was the threat. Yes. In their view in the Clinton. years, the first Clinton term. And so they were  trying to neutralize that threat by infiltrating. those groups with federal informants. Correct.  But at scale, like they were really working on.

this. Can we say that for certain? Yes. Yeah.  Um, so Tim McVey going to all these different, you know, basically hanging around with all  these people, joining the the circuit of. um, you know, this political philosophy based in  gun shows and no visible means of support. We can. assume he was a federal informant, it sounds  like, or may have been a federal informant.

There's never been any um record. I think I I  think that would be perhaps a bit of a reach to to. assume he was a federal informant. It was at least  to my understanding and there is going to be some. evidence about that. Uh but I think making that  connection the gun shows were a hangout, right? Um, you know, I it if you were lost and male  and ex-military and seeking direction, you know,

as as McVeyy's attorney would argue in his defense  at trial, u there were a lot of people who shared. his beliefs about what what had happened at Waco.  Yes. Who were seeking others, seeking a clubhouse. if you were will. and the gun show circuit was  that place. So, um I I think it it it could have.

been just a he was searching um Oh, I'm sure.  But what that world would have been crawling with. informants. Yes, absolutely. Crawling crawling  with informants and crawling with law enforcement. Yeah. I mean, that's what happened to Randy  Weaver, of course. Yes, his world was crawling. with law enforcement because again the FBI had  identified that world, that brand of politics as.

the main threat. Randy Weaver sold a shotgun that  was like too short or something and they wanted. Well, he was being pressed to be an informant and  refused. Yeah. And so they murdered his wife and. son. Um so but back to Tim McVey do so we don't  really know what he was doing during that time. It sounds like with any great specificity.  That's right. Who was Terry Nichols? Terry. Nichols was an army buddy of McVey and um he was  older. He went into the service older. He was.

uh perhaps 10 years older than McVey or five.  But they had served together. They they liked. each other. And in fact with a third soldier named  Michael Forier who will be part of this story. Uh. the three of them served together and after McVey  Nicholls left the service first and then McVey.

and they hooked up again together um to be in the  army surplus business. So that was how they came. came back together after the army. We thought this  through and we started this podcast a year ago and. we decided we're never advertising anything that  we or people on our staff don't use. Period. We're.

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investigation never succeeded in following the  money in this enormous terrorist attack which. is just remains an unsolved mystery. But uh  because they were both virtually penniless and. um Terry Nichols had run up credit card debt  and um tried to declare himself exempt from.

uh tried to give up his citizenship at one point  and tried to say none of his credit card debt was. valid. But they were scrambling to put together  a business because they both were familiar with. how the army surplus business works. Um, so  they were that was their plan. That was their. hope. They had no other so far as we know they  had no other source of income. That's correct.

Now, we're getting into the again stuff  that doesn't make any sense because I think. not to get ahead of the story, but I think Terry  Nichols made a number of trips to the Philippines, didn't he? He did. He traveled. That's not as long  a flight as you can take in the world. How do you. pay for that? No one knows. What was he doing  there? No one knows for sure. Okay. He married a. w a Filipino. Um and but he didn't take her on all  of these trips. Um he the people who investigated.

later found out that he um reportedly took a  bomb building book on one of these trips that a. Filipino terrorist turned government informant  said that Terry Nichols attended a meeting on. one of the islands there with Ramsay Yousef who  was plotting a terrorist attack during during.

Nicholls last trip to the Philippines which was  in late 1994. That would have been months before. the Oklahoma City bombing. So no good answers  for how these guys Ramsey Yousef is a World. Trade Center bomber. 93. Correct. The first World  Trade Center bombing. That's correct. Do you do. you think it's possible that Ramsay Yousef met  Terry Nichols? Well, that's what this terrorist.

said claimed had happened. Well, that would just  be um given the Earth's population outside the. bounds of probability. Correct. Correct.  Random probability. Correct. Yeah. And it. was also known that at this boarding house where  Terry Nichols made many phone calls in Cebu City,

it was it was a hangout for Islamic terrorists.  So there is this very curious, intriguing but. unanswered possibility that Terry Nichols  had some connection to that lobe of activity. that would cut against the prevailing story  which was that Terry Nichols and Timothy. McVey were Christian nationalists, white  supremacists. You know, why would a white.

supremacist Christian nationalist be hanging  around with Muslim terrorists in Cebu City, Philippines? Good question. Well, it's a very  obvious question. Uh, but it's a question again. We're getting to the This is a question that has  no answer. Yes. Terry Nichols is in prison. I I. I believe you've interviewed him. I have. Has he  answered these questions? No. No. Terry Nichols. when um Representative Dana Roarbacher on in  Congress took up this matter and and really.

pressed. Terry Nichols eventually bailed out of  a second interview with the congressman because. he said there is no connection between the  Philippines, my travel there and the bombing. So that was that's Terry Nichols word on this. But  Terry Nichols never explained how he afforded to.

travel as an unemployed person trying to start an  army surplus business to the Philippines multiple. times or paid for the rider truck and ammonium  nitrate. That is right. This just seems now now. we're getting to like bonkers level unanswered  questions. It's like what did the feds say about. all this in the indictment during the trial?  Did they ever explain the money? No. This. trial was basically simplified. It was political  ideology. It was Timothy McVey the mastermind.

It was McVey built the bomb, delivered the  bomb, and that was the end of the story. I don't know why I'm laughing. It's um you know,  it's let me just pause and say parathetically, if you're just a news a hless news consumer as  I was at the time. I was in the news business, but not covering this, just sort of reading the  news every day. It's crazy what they can exclude.

from the story without you noticing if the story  is big enough, loud enough, salacious enough. You. don't ask the obvious questions which like how  did these two unemployed losers afford this bomb, this truck, this plot? Like where'd the money  come from? So true. It is so true. I've never. thought about it till right now. Um, okay.  So, another dumb question, but what was the.

point of the bombing exactly in the in the feds  telling like what did they hope to accomplish by. doing this? Do they have a manifesto? Were they  starting a group? Were they No manifesto. Again, the the feds always pointed to McVey and his  rage at the federal government, his you know, his rage at Waco, his rage at the overreach  of Waco. And remember, this was the Oklahoma. City Federal Building where a lot of agencies  had their offices, not the FBI, but the ATF.

and DEA and and other federal agencies. So that  was, you know, the the theory, the crime theory. here is that this was Timothy McVeyy's revenge on  the federal government for its overreach at Waco. Did Timothy McVey or Terry Nichols ever explain  their motives? T Terry Nichols basically uh has.

always steadfastly said he was uh the  he was the helper here, you know, and. um got in way over his head and had done things.  I mean, Timothy McVey made sure that early on that. Terry Nichols helped him rob a quarry in Kansas  blasting cab. So, he was, you know, he was in up. to his neck. He would say, you know, before he  even knew it. And then he was helpless to say.

no to to McVey. as to McVey he he he bas his story  is the same as the government's that you know it's. the it's revenge over Waco and the government's  overreach and the government's um attempt to take. you know guns away from people who are entitled  to to hold them. So they steal the blasting caps.

from a quarry. They assemble an enormous amount of  ammonium nitrate fertilizer from a companies. They. they spend many months apparently planning this.  The government never offers or even suggests an. accounting of how much they spent doing this. Is  that correct? That's correct. They never tell us. that. And they bas basically they're saying that  Timothy M did it with the help of Terry Nichols. But by the time the trial comes around, there's  there's no hint of a of an accomplice of a John.

Doe number two. Right. That's right. Right. So,  by this point, are you starting to ask yourself, well, maybe I imagined John Doe number two.  Well, there's another there in that first year, Tucker. Um there were some other really strong  indications that John Dou was real. Um one of them.

an extraordinary story is as you know grand jury  proceedings are completely closed sealed and off. the record. Inside the McVey grand jury, there was  a grand juror named Hoppy H Highleberg who was so. upset about the way the federal prosecutors were  running, managing, steering, and in his opinion.

rigging that grand jury that he went rogue. He  began complaining to his congressmen about the. fact that the government was hiding evidence of  John Do2. He became uh an unnamed source for the. Daily Oklahoma newspaper leaking what was going  on inside the grand jury. And eventually after the.

indictment came down in August of 1995, a couple  of months later, he went fully public, wrote, well, he gave an interview. He broke rules which  could get him kicked off this grand jury. But he. also wrote the judge, the federal judge who was  overseeing this grand jury, a letter in which he.

said the federal government is hiding the identity  of John Do. The victims of this crime deserve to. know who committed this crime, who was really  behind this crime, and it's it isn't happening, and actually petitioned the judge to impanel a  new jury. The judge wrote back in three or four.

sentences kicking Hoppy H Highleberg off the jury  and warning him that if he broke the grand jury. rules he could go to jail. So there were de there  were more details. Who was the judge? the judge. uh his name was David Russell and um he  was not the judge of the McVey trial,

right? He was a different judge presiding  over the grand jury. Yes. To produce the. to produce the indictments. Yes. Um but Hoppy  H Highleberg who was the grand juror said he. believed the government knew a that John do  number two existed and b knew his identity. Not that he knew his his identity but knew he  existed and Hoppy H Highleberg told the in the.

interview with the journalist that he gave which  he was absolutely a violation of the grand jury. rules but he was going rogue. He said for him the  red flag of this whole scenario was that was this. story the government put out about the soldier.  Yeah. From uh who who supposedly innocently um.

happened to be at the rider truck rental place.  Exactly. Exactly. With a buddy. He said, Hoppy H. Highleberg said this was the red flag to me. That  soldier didn't look anything like the John Doe 2. sketch and this was a cover up. So, one of the  reasons that we know um that everything you're. saying is right, that it was a cover up, that  the government knew that there was a second um.

accomplice terrorist. John Doe number two is real  is because of an incredible story that I had never. heard before until someone I know told me it which  is why I want to do this interview with you about. a man called Kenneth Trentidu if I'm pronouncing  his name correctly. Yes. A construction worker. from San Diego. And this is this is all real. This  story maybe more than ever any other I've heard. in a long time makes me think I you know I'm we  have serious problems with our government. This is.

evil. So we talk who was Kenneth Trendu. Kenneth  Trendu was a construction worker who had um in the. past been he basically had a drug problem. Came  back from the army in the Vietnam War era. Uh. addicted to heroin. He um turned to rob robbery to  feed his habit and um eventually got arrested for.

bank robbery. Went to prison, did his time, came  out. Uh he f had a falling out with his probation. officer over whether it was okay for him to drink  a beer after a day of hard work. And he was a.

construction worker. He was a construction worker.  The probation officer said the parole officer said. no. It was a red line. And Kenneth Trinidadu  walked away. stopped making his uh appointed. visits with the parole officer. They nobody  was looking very hard for him for six or seven. years when what was he doing during that time? He  was working construction, putting his life back. together. He married his long-term girlfriend and  in 1995 they were expecting their first child. Um.

she was Hispanic. They had he had was coming back  across the border. Was he involved in that we know. of crime of any kind or was he just a construction  worker? Just a con. He had totally put his life. back together. He was totally on the up and up.  Um, and he uh he he crossed the border from Mexico.

where he had been visiting his wife's family and  he was arrested for the old parole violation. Okay. So, they just put his name into the computer  and bam, there was a warrant for the guy and they. arrest him. Yes. Is it San Diero border crossing  in San Diego? Yes. Across from Tijuana. Yeah. Yep. So then what? So Okay. So he goes to jail  on a parole violation. Now, a very again.

uh inexplicable chain of events occurs. I'm sorry,  when is this? This is June of 1995. So, two months. after the Oklahoma City bombing. This is the two  months in which this manhunt for John Doe 2 has. been most active. It is now in mid June at almost  exactly the same moment that the government is.

beginning to back away from the John Doe 2 story  and um support this innocent soldier uh mistaken. identity story. It's almost exactly that moment  that Kenneth Trinidad is arrested. He is a dead. ringer lookalike for the John Do2 poster. He's  driving the brown truck that John Doe 2 may have.

driven. He's got the John Doe. He's got the tattoo  on his left arm. The John Doe too. He looks like. that guy. Yes. Okay. Is there any indication that  he was that guy? There there there come to be some. strong indications as the investigation unfolds.  Um but at that moment uh no and he he wasn't.

that guy. But at some point the authorities are  holding this guy on a completely unrelated charge. and somebody says notices internally, "Wait a  second. This guy looks a lot like the John do John. Doe number two wanted and poster." Well, that's  what we assume happened. But but what is known to. have happened and what is the remarkable chain of  events that happened is that Kenneth Trinidadu now.

in jail awaiting minor penalty for the probation  violation is suddenly moved from San Diego. This. is two months later. He he chills in custody for  two months and and then he has suddenly moved to. Oklahoma City, 1300 miles away. So he's busted  just randomly coming across the border from Tijana.

visiting his in-laws and then two months later  he's on a plane on some like federal marshall. plane to Oklahoma City. That's exactly what  happened. And the family couldn't figure out why. They were concerned and suspicious. Um, his crimes  were all in uh California. His probation officer. was in California who presumably would have been a  witness at that hearing. Uh, but Kenneth Trinidad.

is now in Oklahoma City. And just to complete  the timing, this is uh approximately one week. after the indictment came down in the McVey case.  So he's so clearly the feds think he could be John. Doe number two. I mean, I think we can assume  that. That's a fair assumption. It doesn't make. any sense otherwise. He looks just like the one in  poster. They move him to Oklahoma City. They think.

that this could be John Doe number two. That's a  reasonable assumption. I can't think of another. What happens to Kenneth Trenu? 2 days after he  is moved at 3:00 in the morning. Well, first. he's moved to a special housing unit for reasons  unknown. Um, but he is in solitary confinement in.

a suicide proof cell. 2 days after he arrives  in Oklahoma City, Kenneth Trinidad at 3:00. in the morning is found tortured, bloodied, and  supposedly hanging in his cell, his suicide proof. cell. He's dead. He's dead. two days after getting  to Oklahoma City. Um, okay. So, it sounds like he.

was murdered. Yes, it does. What was the condition  of his body? Brutalized. Brutalized. Bloody, stun gunlike injuries on his feet. Um, bruises,  lacerations, all the signs of a terrible beating. So, he's beaten to death by the feds. It sounds  like it does. However, if I could just complete.

the picture here of how the family found out about  this death, it came as a phone call to uh Mrs. Trinidad, his mother. And it was the associate  warden to tell her that her son Vance Paul.

Brockway had killed himself. Well, this wasn't  even a name she knew. She said, "I don't have. a son named Vance Paul Brockway. I do have a son  named Kenneth Trinidad who is in your facility.". Once sorted out, um, the warden reinforced  that this was her son. He was dead. He killed. himself and made a very bizarre offer of free  cremation. And Kenneth Trinidad's mother said,

"Well, I will have to speak to his wife about  that." And the warden said, "Oh, well, he doesn't. have a wife." And Mrs. Trinidad said, "Yes, he  definitely has a wife." And he has a brother, too, who's a lawyer. So eventually, this is how  Jesse Trinidadu comes in to the picture. Kenneth's.

brother, the lawyer, who unfortunately for the  feds is a high performing, high intelligence, very motivated lawyer who wants to find out what  happened to his brother. Absolutely. And this is. the X factor in this whole story because 99%  of the prisoners who run a foul either of each. other or the institution do not have families with  high-powered lawyers who are intent on finding out. what happened. And to your question, Tucker, about  what was the state of the body when Jesse called.

the prison to find out himself what had happened,  he the one of the first things he said was, "Do. not cremate the body. Send it home. Send Kenneth  home for burial." When the casket arrived several. days later and the family had the funeral home  take the coroner's makeup off Kenneth, that's when.

they found these injuries. They were concealed uh  with under heavy makeup and that's when the family. had to see this for the first time. His throat  was slashed. The stun gunlike burns on his feet, the bruising, the lacerations, they discovered  it in the funeral home. And Jesse being a lawyer,

hard as that had to have been, took photographs  and videotape of the body for evidence. It's very. obvious it wasn't a suicide. Very obvious. So,  it sounds like what happened was it was a case. of mistaken identity and this guy just got swept  into this hysteria into an FBI investigation and.

the feds beat him to death, maybe accidentally,  who knows, during questioning and then tried to. cover it up. You think that's what happened?  I think that's a reasonable assumption. Do you think there's any chance he was John Doe  number two? No. No. No. It sounds like so um this. sets the really the reason that most people know  about this story is because of his brother Jesse.

Trinidadu who just launches into like a multi-year  crusade to bring justice. Absolutely right. And. he's the reason there was a foyer filed to get  the videotape of the actual bombing so we could. find out who was in the truck with Tim McVey.  Is that correct? Exactly. And how long has that. been ongoing? That has been ongoing. Uh the foyer  was filed in 2008. It went all the way to trial.

in 2014. The trial was fully finished until its  star witness who an FBI whistleblower, we haven't. talked about him yet, um but bailed out of the  trial leading to a long uh and still ongoing.

conflict over Jesse's allegation of witness  tampering against the the the FBI. So bottom line, in 30 years, despite lawsuits, a trial, the  FBI, the federal government has never produced. this videotape. That's correct. And they're  now claiming they they they just don't have. it somehow. Right. Yeah. They just don't have  it. Right. Right. Yeah. The central piece of.

evidence in the biggest terror attack, uh they  just they just don't have it. Just like they. don't they don't actually have the original moon  landing footage. They just taped over it because. they needed the Betamax tapes. They're just  out of space. Yeah. You wonder how like why. not try harder with the lies? Do you ever  wonder about that? If you're going to lie, like at least make them inventive so you don't  patronize the person you're lying to. Absolutely. Yeah. Um wow. Uh who do you think John Doe  number two was? I believe John Doe number.

two was one of the neonazi bank robbers  uh that Timothy McVey was associated with. uh that the FBI was chasing him for from the  very beginning. though somewhat off the books. They weren't telling the public they were looking  for this neo-Nazi bank robbery gang, but they were.

looking at them. They these investigations were  connected the uh they didn't know who had been. robbing the the the bank robbers to an earlier  point of yours Tucker about following the money. These the Aryan Republican Army, also known as the  Midwest Bank robbers, to the FBI, robbed $250,000.

from 22 banks in 1994 95. That would be roughly  twice that much in today's dollars. None of the. money was ever found by the FBI once they arrested  these bank robbers and they got them, you know, depose them or that they uh um still didn't learn  where where the money went. But the he one of the.

leaders of the bank robbery gang did say that he  had contributed heavily to white power causes. So this was um a heavyduty operation and they  were intending to overthrow to to to have an. insurrection. That was their intent. So they were  they were arrested basically in early 19 uh 96,

but no one no one ever connected the dots back to  Well, I'm a little confused or even more confused. because white supremacists, whatever those are,  were the number one priority of the FBI have been. for decades, decades and decades. They hate them  on many levels. And so you're saying that John Doe. number two was one of these guys, one of these  neo-Nazi types, but they just sort of stopped.

looking for him and they don't care enough to keep  the investigation going into who this person was. Yeah, it just it doesn't uh it doesn't stack. I  agree. And um but there there has been a concerted. effort to basically wind down the various  tentacles of this investigation rather than.

keeping them going. I would I would say that's  fair. So, from spending my life in DC, I know that. when investigations pull back before achieving  their goal, it's 100% of the time because the. investigation is revealing wrongdoing on the part  of the government. Yes. I mean, that I mean that's. why that's why they haven't released the tapes  from January 6th and never will, etc., etc., etc. Um, so what do you think the government's  wrongdoing in this case might have been? Well,

here and and just to backtrack a moment, you asked  me who do I think it was. I'm there are the names. are known of this group of, you know, five or six  members of the Aryan Republican Army. They're well. known. I one of the most remarkable moments of  this the Jesse Trinidadu investigation comes in.

uh well the it begins in 2001 and if this if this  is solved it will be partly owing to Timothy McVey. who sent Jesse Trinity who who McVey himself  was uh engrossed in the Kenneth Trinidad murder. because of course this was a cause celeb in  federal prison, right? This is every prisoner's.

worst nightmare and the prison slang for it came  to be getting Trinidad. That's when the SWAT team. comes into your cell in the middle of the night  and brutalizes you and kills you. So that is. what is understood in prison as getting trinidued.  Timothy McVey in his from his prison wrote letters. to a journalist about the Trinidad case and so he  was obviously interested in it. A few years later,

he actually met up with a prisoner um who has  played a key role in Jesse's case who landed. on death row with Timothy McVey and interviewed  him for a book that he published from death row. But the part of the story that's relevant here  is that Timothy McVey in 2001 asked this death.

row prisoner who he knew knew Jesse, please  tell Jesse Trinidad, this is what happened to. Kenneth Trinidad. The FBI mistook him for Richard  Guthrie. Richard Guthrie was the co-leader of the. Aryan Republican Army gang. So that would be one  answer. Did they look alike? Guthrie infinity.

dead ringer look. So what happened in Guthrie?  Guthrie amazingly wound up dead in his federal. prison cell. He was prisoner number two. It was  uh days after days before he was going to give. testimony in another of the bank robbers trials.  It was shortly after he unloaded everything he.

knew about the insurrection they were planning to  the federal prosecutors. So he had and he told his. family that he was looking forward to the future.  he was going to give a an interview um reportedly. to the LA Times. He had he said he had written a  book or and he was writing a a tell all and all of.

a sudden from his jail cell in Kentucky he wound  up hanging. So he's the second uh hanging very. suspicious hanging death of the second federal  prisoner in this story. And there is a third by. the way. Can we pause on Guthrie for a second? Um  it sounds like you don't believe that he he killed.

himself. Why would he have been killed? I mean  the clear motive would be his former compatriots. who are mad about his upcoming testimony. Well,  he was a federal high value federal prisoner. He was under the watch of the United States  Marshall Service before he and his compatriots. went to trial. So, it's hard to imagine.  And he too was in solitary confinement. So,

it's hard to imagine. reportedly the the FBI knew  was threatening Richard Guthrie with charging him. in the bombing. So they were reportedly very close  either either knew or were close to knowing his. role in the bombing. Do you I mean based on your  reporting do you think he was John Doe number two?

I think based on my reporting I think it's either  him or another member of the gang who also is. a lookalike for I mean look we know how these  composite sketches goes they are approximations. both Guthrie this just looks like Hollywood thug  you know what I mean it's like but you can see a. bodybuilder type in this you know you you get.  So when you ask me, do I think it was Richard.

Guthrie? I believe that witnesses on the ground  that morning saw the men who were with Timothy. McVey. I believe based on my reporting that  those men were members of the Aryan Republican. Army. So I believe Richard Guthrie was there.  Um, but there was another member of that gang. who was reported to be a lookalike for John Doe,  too. As much of a lookalike as Richard Guthrie,

so it could have been him. But again, I just refer  back to the government's behavior. They have been. intentionally opaque on this subject. They've  lied about it. I understand they killed a guy in a. case of mistaken identity. I get why they wouldn't  want to cop to that. I understand that. Um but why. the lack of transparency otherwise? I just don't  understand why it wouldn't like what are they what.

are they hiding? Well, pretending there was not  a John Doe number two. It's a good question and. my reporting if I could take us on one one quick  detail because it is so incredible here that there. is a third prisoner in this situation who winds up  in the same death scenario as Richard Guthrie and.

Kenneth Trinidad. And that um is a man named Alden  Gillis Baker. Baker came forward to Jesse two. two or three years after Kenneth's death. Jesse  mounted a huge wrongful death lawsuit against the. federal government which went to trial in the year  2000. And he was his family was awarded a million.

dollars by uh it's a civil trial by a judge who  couldn't didn't wouldn't um call this a murder. He c he again lack of evidence but he awarded the  money based on the wrong the the abuses against. the family after the death of the way that the  whole death thing was handled. But Kenneth, but.

uh Alden Gillis Baker while Jesse was preparing  for that lawsuit came forward. He was now in a. different prison. He was on the cell block with  Kenneth Trinidad. And who is he? Was he an Nation. guy, too? He No, he's he was a suspected serial  killer, psychotic criminal. He had been in the.

federal prison system for seven or eight years.  Um, so he's uh a dangerous guy. U he he came. forward to Jesse and said after well that he said  he had witnessed the murder. He said he described. the SWAT team coming into Kenna's cell. He said  uh his death lasted about 30 minutes. He heard,

you know, struggling, um, shouting, moaning, and  then nothing. And they left the cell, the SWAT. team returning some hours later, said Baker to,  and he could hear. He didn't see what happened, but he was hearing and he heard them tearing  up bed sheets, which he took to be they were. basically um staging a hanging. Baker came  forward to Jesse a couple of years after.

while he was preparing for the wrongful death  trial and he was in a new facility. He said, "They loaded me up on drugs and shipped me to a  new facility. I want to tell what happened." And. Jesse's in as part of the wrongful death trial  took a deposition of Alden Gillis Baker with.

what I've told you here from from his account.  and he would have been uh a star witness at this. trial. Uh he started receiving threats. He was in  a California prison. He started receiving threats. from fellow inmates. He he begged the prosecutor  to protect him and um the prosecutor refused and.

Jesse uh petitioned the court for a protective  order for Alden Baker which was never answered. And in August of 2000, 2 months before the trial  opened, Alden Gillis Baker was found hanged in his. cell. So that's how Jesse lost the star witness  to Kenneth Trinidad's murder. That's unbelievable.

Um, can I just go back to Tim McVey for a  moment and clear something up that I have read, but don't know if it's true. So, there was um  a psychiatrist, a contract employee of the CIA. for many decades called Lewis Joy West, Jolly  West um who was, you know, one of the people who. conducted experiments with LSD and other drugs on  unsuspecting civilians. One of the darkest people.

in the 20th century American history. also the  person who declared um who declared Lee Harvey. Oswald's assassin uh Jack Ruby Jack Ruby mentally  ill visited him in the in in lockup in Dallas. etc etc clearly sent to do that so he's a super  dark guy I have read that he visited Tim McVey in. jail is that true you know Tucker I've seen that  reference too but no more than you Do I know? I.

I don't know that is true or not. Okay. Cuz if  we ever find out that's true, then it's just it. is worth overthrowing the US government at that  point cuz it's just like they're not even trying. to hide it from us at the um Okay. So, you don't  know if that's true. I don't know. To your point, and I did take us on that detour, but I think  you'll agree it was an amazing Yes. detour. But.

a lot of suicides in this case. Yes. Three. three  prisoner uh unexplained deaths, let's say. Um, but you had asked, well, the kind of people  who commit violent crimes don't typically kill. themselves. I'm just saying like I think there  there's data on this. Um, you know, the kind of. people who kill themselves are like, you know, sad  women, accountants whose wives leave them. That's. more the profile. It's not, you know, bodybuilders  who are also rapists. They they kill other people,

not themselves. So, uh, it's even more unusual, I  think, among that population. Just saying. Right. Absolutely. And as and we might add as a curiosity  to the Trendu hanging suicide, hangings are. generally bloodless affairs or nearly so. But the  orderly who found Kenneth Trinidadu and and had to. clean up the cell, not found him, was assigned to  clean up the cell, described it as a blood bath.

He had to clean up the blood with a mop. Yeah.  What do we know about Tim McVeyy's contact with uh. the federal government? Like he obviously served  in the US Army. Um but I seem to recall a letter. that he wrote his sister in which he refers to  contact with the intel services. Yes. Yes. And you. had I'm I did lead us astray and you had asked you  know what what was going on here with with McVey.

and the federal government. McVey told the story  at least three places. One being the the letter to. the sister. He told the story of it's a shocking  um claim. So, I'll I'll pause a moment here, but Timothy McVey, while in on death row being  interviewed by that death row prisoner who I.

mentioned, Timothy McVey claimed that he operated  in the Oklahoma City bombing not as a terrorist, but as an undercover federal operative. that  he was basically recruited during his military. service in Iraq. um he told the story slightly  different ways, but to the death row inmate.

who wrote the memoir and published this story,  um McVey said that he was recruited into a an. unspecified defense department operation, domestic  surveillance operation. He gave I interviewed. three prisoners. That was, you know, once I became  involved in in this investigation for Jesse's FOYA.

case, not the not the um videotapes case, but  a previous FOYA. I interviewed David Hammer, Terry Nichols, and Peter Langan, who is the  co-leader of the Aryan Republican Army. So, but back to what McVey told he told the death row  inmate that he was undercover for a an unspecified.

defense department operation. He told Terry  Nichols, this is what Nicholls told Jesse and. me on in Supermax. He told us that Timothy McVey  let slip that he was undercover for the FBI.

He told his sister that he had been recruited  for um he had been recruited during that uh try. out for the special operations. Essentially that  scenario would be he didn't wash out of special. operations. he basically joined this new uh unit,  but he he told her that he was going to be doing.

domestic operations. And as a matter of fact, in  1998, the New York Times published that letter, not with much context, but yes, McVey made these  claims after his trial. Never mentioned them at. trial. Never mentioned them at trial. No, this is  speculation, but what why would what would Tim Mc.

Timothy McVeyy's motive be for, you know, carrying  out this terror attack at the behest of the feds, their motive would be a little bit clearer,  which would be like prove that there really is. a domestic terror threat from white right-wingers.  Um, something they've been working on for a long. time. But what would his motive be in staying  quiet about that? Like why wouldn't he say, "Yeah, I was part of this at trial and like I'm  not gonna, you know, I'm not going down for this.

I was asked to do it." Well, one explanation might  be that he became radicalized during just like a. lot of people during Rupy Ridge, Waco. um you  know that he was he was at the at the point of. this operation deeply conflicted over what it  was he was doing to add one more source. No,

that's fair. It radicalizes me hearing  about it. Got to be honest, it does. Well, there's one more source which I haven't seen.  This story does have uh three or four just. superb researchers who have dedicated decades  to trying to figure out what happened here. And one of them wrote a book. She researched  through the Texas University of Texas library.

that has that McVeyy's attorney Steven Jones  uh donated his papers to. and she has uncovered. um documents from his original attorneys. He was  given a public defender. McVey was right away and. they've immediately started trying to get out of  that case because they were so conflicted. I mean.

their friends had been, you know, injured, their  the courthouse was damaged. They were freaked out. But he did have a brief period with them  until they could find, you know, hand him off. to Steven Jones in which um he told them that  he had been working. This would have been his. first representation to his first lawyer before  trial. Significant. Yeah. Before and before the. preliminary hearing. I mean in within hours and  days of the bombing. and he told his first lawyers.

that he had been a government operative. And he  said that um he was shocked at the damage done. by the bomb as if he had been there to uh create  a demonstration. it with his truck in the road,

not destroy the whole building. I say as if I I  don't know that, but his what I do know is that. he told them he was shocked at the level of damage  that was done. Wow. Do you think it's plausible. that he was telling the truth? I Well, let's  go back to another question of yours, which is, you know, what was going on here? Why? Why is the  government covering this up? And I can just tell.

you that it appears based on other revelations  that have come to to Jesse Trinidad because he's. been the engine of this investigation, this whole  investigation, Jesse. um that you know there's. there's evidence that the government had Timothy  McVey under surveillance before this attack. And.

this evidence comes from an FBI whistleblower.  There are a lot of Marines in this story, by the way. There's a lot of Marines do or die in  this story. Um Jesse being one and John Matthews,

who is this FBI whistleblower being another. And  that, you know, uh, brotherhood kind of clearly. motivated Matthews to come forward to Jesse in  2011 in Salt Lake City and tell the story. It's. it's an untold story because it's been suppressed  first by the defense by the Justice Department.

bearing down on Newsweek magazine, which was  going to publish this story of Matthew's work. for the FBI in a undercover program called Patcon,  short for Patriot Conspiracy, in the 1990s. before. dur before and after covering before and after  the Oklahoma City bombing which was a sweeping.

infiltration program. Matthews was a Vietnam vet,  went to Nicaragua with the, you know, uh, the Iran. Contra operation. I mean, to train the and, um,  now found himself in Patcon. And it was, as he. told Jesse on the phone, much bigger and uglier  than you can imagine. I want to tell you about.

this. He was alienated by this program because  he said it was inciting the violence that it was. supposed to be preventing. So he and he was with  Pacon for like eight years. So long answer to your. question what could have been going on here. Uh,  Matthews believe so from his knowledge of Patcon, Matthews told Jesse first that he believed Patcon  was um he believed Oklahoma City was a Patcon.

operation. He denied working the operation. He was  based in Arizona, but Arizona is another lobe of. the McVey the runup to the bombing. McVey stayed  and lived in Kingman, Oklahoma. Kingman, Arizona,

and Michael Forier lived in Kingman, Arizona.  Uh but but back to what John Matthews knew, the whistleblower. the whistleblower. And the  potential here for the FBI having had McVey under. surveillance is that Matthews told Jesse that he  saw Timothy McVey with another member of this uh.

let's say at least satellite member of this Aryan  Republican Army group. Not a member of the gang, but one of them. uh he saw the McVey together  with that guy at a military training in San Saba, Texas in 1994. He was working Patcon surveillance  at the time. So we know that Pacon surveiled McVey.

months before the bombing and there are many other  So why didn't they stop it? They they didn't stop. it. They tried to stop it. The feds. Yeah. Yeah.  How did they try and stop it? Well, they all the. evidence the best evidence and I I have to just  say best evidence um is that they had McVey under.

surveillance that there was a transponder on the  bomb truck. Something happened. Some there was a. transponder on the bomb truck. There is evidence  of that. Yes. Um like a federal transponder like. they were following him. Yes. Tracking him. Yes.  Uh that's best evidence that they I'm sure the. government will say no, we didn't. But um a member  of this I haven't said the words Elohim City, but.

this is the location where the Aryan Republican  Army hung out, hid out in eastern Oklahoma. um. one of those um guys who may very well be I've  I've given you a lot of names today, Tucker, so I'm trying to to to winnow the names. Uh but  he may well have been an another informant. I His.

name is Andreas Stmmeer. He's a German national.  He was in the country illegally on an expired. visa. He's got a lot of uh heavy German political  pedigree and intelligence training and was out. front fermenting this let's blow up federal  buildings out of this enclave called Elohim.

City in eastern Oklahoma. See after the bombing  he went back to Germany and since then he has. been had the odd practice of basically issuing  insider knowledge about how the bombing really. went down. He was one who said yes the truck had a  trans he seems to know the truck had a transponder.

on. He's never been charged. Never been charged.  Andreas Strosme is in Elohim City, which is where. all these Aryan would be terrorists supposedly are  planning the bombing of various federal buildings, including the OKC one. And the bombing comes off,  biggest manhunt in history, and he just goes back. to Germany and he's fine, and no one ever goes  after him legally. That's right. Imagine how.

many leads I think it was I don't know 25,000 or  something uh that the FBI was pursuing during the. biggest manhunt in history and you know which led  them to like elementary school teachers of Timothy. McVey you know somehow Andreas Strauss Smire  was never interviewed and there are there are.

markings and it's and it can be reasonably assumed  that Andreas Stmeyer may have been an undercover. informant. Well, I mean, I'm, you know, don't want  to speculate or anything, but it seems entirely. possible coming from his, you know, political  pedigree in Germany, the intelligence training,

um, his, uh, patron in Washington DC, an  Air Force colonel who was believed to have, you know, worked for the CIA. Um he he has all  of those uh all of those traits and and which I. I must introduce one more character here. It turns  out during a a couple of years after the bombing.

and and as a matter of fact on the eve of Timothy  McVeyy's trial this you know let's remember one of. the lessons of this story is just the uncuriosity  of the national news media. They were taking their. spoonfed story from the DOJ in Washington DC while  this Oklahoma news reporter was beating the bushes.

and he found his name is JD Cash. He's one of  the heroes of this story and became very close. to Jesse. Um, he found an undercover informant  whose name was Carol How who was embedded inside. the bomb plot for eight months in the runup to the  Oklahoma City. Bomb plot. Correct. this. She was.

embedded at Elohim City in eastern Oklahoma,  the hideout of the Aryan Republican Army, where Andreas Strame was the militia leader,  the paramilitary trainer and she told the FBI. afterward, well, she told her handlers during  the runup before the bombing. This is why the.

the vi the survivors of the victims who know  about this are so outraged. She told of his, you know, in late September October Styer said  it's time to stop talking and start blowing. up federal buildings. and he took and she went  along on at least one and maybe as many as three.

uh these apparently scouting missions  to Oklahoma City. Oklahoma City was on. the short list of targets. One, you know, as  well as two buildings in Tulsa. But um yes, she told them that he was planning this, you know,  that that that there was going to be a bombing and.

it might be the federal building in Oklahoma  City. So, and they knew this the FBI. Now, she was an informant for the ATF, not the FBI, but  the FBI debriefed her right after the bombing. And. she was never charged. She was charged. Not. She  was charged in reprisal basically for going public. about this afterwards. What would she have been uh  what were you thinking she would be charged with?

Well, I mean she was an accessory to the to the  bombing. It sounds like she was an informant. Yes, but she was also of course she was but I mean like  strictly speaking she was part of the plotting. Correct. She No, she was she was an observer. She  was an observer. Ah, I have a theory of this case. and I want to throw it out um to you against  your superior knowledge, but before I do that,

can we just pull back and assess the political  effects of all of this for a second? Yes. So, Oklahoma City happens in April of 1995. Clinton is  totally focused on his re-election at that point. Um, things are about to get super crawins [Music]  stuff and there's just a lot going on in America. at this point and Clinton's worried about it. He's  unpopular. Oklahoma City happens. What happens.

to Bill Clinton's political career? This saved  his political career. He was, you know, I mean, everybody remembers him as the great comforter  and chief going to Oklahoma City and in a, you know, almost ministerial way, right?  You know, uh, comforting the victims and. um then it it was possible to, you know, pass  in Washington. They could pass new legislation.

and the FBI's budget was increased to you know  uh prevent to you know yeah prevent terroristic. attacks. I mean it was you know it was the  beginning of uh it wasn't we saw this after 9/11. u but yes it it was a great boon for  the the Clinton presidency and it and. as you said it was a great boon for federal law  enforcement who got more money and more power.

Yes. But the irony is just just like the FBI and  CIA got more money and more power after 911, which. they allowed to happen obviously. I mean, they  whe they allowed it to happen or not on purpose, but it happened on their watch. They were paid  to prevent it from happening. It happened anyway, but they got richer and more powerful as a result.  Their screw-up helped them. Absolutely. And that's. true here as well. Absolutely. Amazing. So, here's  my theory. My theory is that the federal various.

agencies, ATF, FBI, maybe maybe others were um  fully aware that this plot was in progress. They. may or may not have wanted it to happen.  Probably not at the scale it actually did. happen. Who knows? Um they weren't fully in  charge of it, but they knew that it was going. on and they thought they could kind of fine-tune  it. they couldn't. Um, it went off. It killed a.

lot of people and then they just kind of made the  best of it from there. Hid their own involvement. in it. Wound up murdering a guy, hid that. Um,  their number one goal was to protect themselves. Their number two goal was to infiltrate white  supremacist groups. Um, and none of this has. come out really to the public despite a number of  books. first and foremost yours and the efforts. of Jesse Trent to do because the American news  media is totally vested in denying any of this.

and pretending that the real threat is these  fringe groups. That's my theory. Absolutely, Tucker. You're You think that's right. I do. I do.  And um this story is such it's so much about the. failure of the news media and and and how they had  30 years to ask the hard questions about Oklahoma.

City and instead they actually helped bury this  story along with the victims of the bombing. I just a couple of instances of this and I mean uh  in the because it's been a long investigation but. literally in 1997 on the eve of the Timothy McVey  trial at this time when the Oklahoma journalist.

discovered the informant ABC deployed uh a a  a news team to to get that story, to get the. Carol House story. And they did with the help of  JD Cash, the Oklahoma journalist. They got it in. the can. And the day of air, the the Department  of Justice bore down on the ABC network and they.

killed the story. Was it a Jackie Jud story? Do  you know? No, it was uh um Tom Gerald. Wow. Yeah. And Tom Gerald afterwards told the producer, who's  one of Jesse's crew, another Marine, told him that. in all his career, he had never seen anything  like this, that they were totally blindsided. And. Roger being a Marine, his producing partner knew  that he was tight with Colonel David Hackworth,

who was Newsweek's military affairs correspondent.  He said, "Call hack. See if you can get yourself. on the Don Imus show." So, this story that was  rolled by ABC News was broken by Roger on Don. Immus's radio show in New York City, right? Which  is a great way to bury and discredit true things.

Roll them out on Don Immus. You know, no one will  pay, you know, people sort of what and then move. on to something else. But then again uh however  many years later uh 13 14 years later they had. this another chance to bring this to the national  media when Jesse set John Matthews up with the.

whistleblower the whistleblower John Matthews up  with Newsweek for a cover story. And at the time, and I I'm sure you know John Solomon course,  John Solomon was the editor on that story, and they got everything in the can, including  their reporting, confirmed that Andreas Strasmire, the German that the FBI never interviewed, that he  was a an undercover operative working for Patcon.

So, did that did that run? No. Uh, none of that  information ran because just as back in 1997, the Department of Justice bore down on Newsweek  magazine and its editor Tina Brown. And the night. before the story aired, every detail, including  uh, as I told you, the sighting by John Matthews.

in San Saba, Texas, all gone, all removed. Why?  And Tina Brown made that decision. So far as you. know, as far I Somebody at the publication made  that decision. Why would it was an executive edit, right? If it was Tina Brown, I don't I used  to work for Tina Brown. I I would be sad to. hear that. That's pretty craven. I would not be  surprised in the slightest, but I would be sad. I don't know that. But some but it sounds like  somebody made that decision. So why would a news.

organization cave to the DOJ on something like  that? I don't really understand. Well, perhaps by. threat. I mean the f I didn't hear any profanity  comes immediately to mind. I mean if I got a call. from DOJ saying you can't say that. Um in in the  first case I did hear an explanation from Roger. Charles who worked on that story that was killed  and he said um that the principles were calling.

this is what you know uh the the network and what  was said was if this story runs it will be the end. of the ATF and there will be machine guns on every  corner and that was enough for the executives in. New York to say we can't go there, right? So, it's  going to get in the way of gun control, so don't. do it. There's there's a there's a a larger goal  here, which is disarming the population. Okay.

Whatever you want, right? No, it's it's uh I Yeah,  I mean, we could do hours cuz you spent your life. in the media as I have and just the corruption of  it is just be it's beyond belief. Um but everyone. knows that. I guess what I would say is that by  not covering stories like this, you allow new ones. to occur. So this was 1995. Then you have 2001,  9/11, you have 2021, January 6 both, you know,

fil those stories, the the stories we were  presented on television are just not true. And. um and the government involved in really sinister  ways in both. and a lot of others I mean in. between the Gretchen Whitmer assassination attack  where like everybody involved seemed to be a fed. That's a huge alignment to that story. And I would  mention one more, Tucker, um, which was new to me.

as I researched is that, uh, the Boston Marathon  bombing has spun out, uh, a whole spiral of. possibilities that the older brother, the one who  was killed, um, was an FBI undercover operative. And um there's a a book written about that. And  Dana Roarbacher, the same congressman who tried.

to look from Orange County, California. Yes. Yes.  Uh he pressed uh with a a house investigation into. the Oklahoma City bombing and the possible German  connections. I mean looking among other things at. Andreas Strathmire, he continued to look at this  same picture after the Boston Marathon bombing and. um just faced stonewalling from some of the  same people. I mean, Janet Npalitano, who was.

involved in the Oklahoma City bombing case, was  was one of the ones stonewalling him. Um, and uh, Robert Mueller, who um, of course was involved in,  you know, Jesse's case, um, trying to get justice. for Kenneth on Capitol Hill. That's another  whole story. But um yes, to your point about.

what has happened since the bombing because since  the Oklahoma City bombing because we don't know. what really happened and the potential for this  creeping surveillance cancer that seems to, you. know, attach to so many of these these terrible  events where we still don't fully understand what.

happened. Can I ask one last question? So now Pam  Bondi is the attorney general. Cash Patel runs. FBI. Dan Bonino right beneath him. I mean there  are people who say they're reform-minded. I think. Bonino is reform-minded for the record. But um but  you know there are people of good faith I think in. positions of authority in federal law enforcement.  Now, what should they immediately declassify,

disclose, stop efforts to hide about the Oklahoma  City bombing 30 years ago that could resolve all. these questions? Like, what should we know that we  don't? Release the videotapes of the bombing. Let. America see this movie. um as well and maybe just  as important maybe more important and ju Jesse. has a letter on Attorney General Bondi's desk as  of March which says stop the DOJ resistance to.

unsealing the FBI whistleblowers deposition.  Uh this is where potentially he laid out the. entire scope of the Patcon program, which nobody  knows about. On the record, the FBI will say,

"Oh, Patcon was just this little operation  we had just lasted for two years, and it. was just targeting three uh extremist right-wing  groups." No. John Matthews, their top spy, says, "I worked Patcon for eight years and I infiltrated  22 groups." And he says Patcon Khan was run out of. the White House. And Patcon was even involved  in Waco. And Patcon was a precursor to Fast.

and Furious that included uh gun walking, illegal  ammunition and gun sales. Uh you know, it was a it. was an octopus of a surveillance program. And that  was 19 that was the 1990s. and the lid has been. kept on it while all these other things happened  that we are talking about and perhaps might have.

been prevented. It'd be interesting to know what's  going on now. I mean, as someone who's been in, you know, around right-wingers his whole life, I  don't know a lot of potential bombers, you know, not kind of that that sort of rightwinger, but you  wonder how many people I mean, if the government. has decided that everyone to the right of Chuck  Schumer is a security risk like and they have.

anyone who opposes our program is a security risk.  Anyone who's not on board with totally destroying. the country is our enemy. And that's their view  for sure. Then you wonder how many people they. are collecting information from, how many people  they are sending money to, how many people are in. effect federal informants at some level at some  time in their lives. I did some research on this. for the last chapter of the book and I'm I can  think of a few by the way. I've always wondered.

people I know personally like what is what is  that person? It's a staggering prospect. And. the the the latest stats that I heard was that  on any given day, the FBI has 15,000 informants. out there working. um in the spending like over  $40 million a year on this and and think about. what it is their their frontline jobs bad enough  like betraying their families, friends and work.

associates. But then to complete their projects,  they're committing crimes and sometime and their. managers are looking the other way and nobody  seems to be keeping tabs on this which has. definitely uh increased exponentially since 9/11.  Has there been any reform at all in the past 6.

months that you've noticed? Cuz I haven't noticed  any reform at all. No. And we we both know that. again it's this slow walk. The allegation uh from  the January 6 detainees is that the that there is. a heavy uh infiltration by the federal government  and this has been battered around Capitol Hill.

Now why can't we get an answer? Uh Chuck Chuck  Grassley and um someone else have have a letter. now on the desk of Why should they have to have a  letter? I mean, Republicans control the Department. of Justice, so I don't understand what the motive  is uh here. I mean, you know, well, this could be. how many infor how many federal law enforcement  officials and or informants were in the crowd on.

on January 6th? Simple question. Why? Why can't we  get that answered? I I don't understand. It's not. enough to pardon people. It's like, what the hell  just happened? And what are they doing now? And. why can't I know? I live here. I'm a citizen. No.  Do you feel a frustration? Absolutely. And maybe. this is the answer to your question. What can  Attorney General Bondi's Department of Justice. do right now? Well, answer that question. Yeah, I  really appreciate you taking all this time. It's.

an amazing story. If you had told me two years  ago that there was something weird behind Oklahoma. City, I I would have been really surprised. But it  turns out everything about it was weird. Tucker, thank you. And they murdered a guy and got  away with it. At least one. Thank you very. much. My pleasure. [Music] So, it turns out that  YouTube is suppressing this show. On one level, that's not surprising. That's what they  do. But on another level, it's shocking. With everything that's going on in the world right  now, all the change taking place in our economy.

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