Lee Strobel: Possession, Miracles, Visions, and Encounters With Angels & Demons

So, we're told there's no state religion in the  West, certainly not in the United States, but in. fact there is. It's scientism. It's the worship  of science. It's the belief, and all of us learn. this at a young age, that everything around us,  everything we experience can be measured by people. in white coats. That's science. That if it can't  be measured, it's not real. The problem with this. religion is that our life, our daily experience  contradicts it constantly. All of us are seeing,

hearing, tasting, feeling things that can't be  measured by science. But it doesn't make them any. less real. These are by definition supernatural.  Supernatural experiences are a feature of. everyone's life. And if we're honest, we'll  admit that. So what do they mean exactly? Well, Lee Stroel was a reporter. He worked for the  Chicago Tribune and left and became a pastor. So he has religious faith but also a grounding  in empiricism, the desire to prove things. He.

is the perfect person to write the book that he  did about the supernatural. That would be dreams, mystical dreams, near-death experiences, miracles,  ghosts. We sat down with him to hear just how. common these experiences are and what they mean.  [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music].

Lee Stroel. So, you've written a book. I don't do  a lot of book interviews, but couldn't resist this. one. Seeing the supernatural, investigating  angels, demons, mystical dreams, near-death. encounters, and other mysteries of the unseen  world. Right? I think a lot of us sense or know.

on some level, in fact, I think everybody knows on  some level um that there is a world that science. can't measure or quantify. Yeah. That there is um  you know that there's there's stuff that we can't. explain. Yeah. But that it's it's no less real  for our inability to explain it. So, let's let's. go through the list. Yeah. You know, by the way,  I I was an atheist. I'm trained in journalism and. law. And so, I'm always looking for corroboration.  I'm looking for evidence. I'm looking for facts. And so, you're right. I think there's an intuitive  sense that most people have that there's something.

beyond what we can see, touch, and put in a  test. Eight out of 10 Americans believe that. But how do we know what what is the evidence?  And that's what I try to get into in the book. How can we be sure through corroborated evidence  that indeed there are such things as miracles, as near-death experiences, as deathbed encounters,  and uh mystical dreams and things like that. Yeah. Atheism is the is the leap of imagination. It  is. That's true. It's hard to be an atheist. Admire them in a way though. Feel sorry for them.  But anyway, okay. Angels. Yeah. What's an angel?

Fascinating. you know, um, angels are created by  God, um, before humankind was created. They are. spirit beings, so they have they're not omnisient  like God is. They're not omniresent like God is. They are they don't age because there's  no physical body. They don't marry because. there's no physical body. Um, they uh they're  very intelligent, very smart. Um, and they are, according to the Bible, they are to serve not  only God, but also his people. And um what's.

interesting the the the Christian Bible with  the Hebrew Old Testament Yeah. makes reference. to these. Is there any culture in the world that  doesn't believe in some form of angel? It's pretty. universal. Yeah, it is pretty universal. Like  every culture. Yeah. Just virtually every culture. The all the way to the Maya. That's right. That's  right. Canaanites. And what's interesting about. the Christian interpretation of angels is that  it says in the book of Hebrews in the Bible that.

um we should anticipate the possibility that we  would encounter an angel. In other words, it says. sometimes when you're providing hospitality to  someone, unbeknownst to you, it's an angel. And. so there's an anticipation that perhaps there  could be angelic encounters. And so what I try. to look at in the book are cases in which we have  angelic encounters. people actually encounter an. angel. I'll give you an example. There was a  missionary named John G. Payton, P- A T- O N,

from Scotland. And he went to an island in the  South Pacific to be a Christian missionary. And he. and his wife were living in a cottage there. And  he's talking about Jesus. Well, the local tribes. people didn't quite like that. And so one day  a mob of them came to burn down their house and. kill him. So they see this mob forming. And he and  his wife are in their house. And what can they do? They're they start to pray like, "God, pro protect  us. Help us. Um they're going to kill us. They're.

going to burn our house down. What do we do?"  And and they prayed all night long. And by dawn, the mob began to dissipate. A year later, he led  the head of that mob to faith in Jesus Christ. And. they're having a conversation and and John said  to him, "By the way, do you remember that day when. you all came to burn down our house and kill us?  Why didn't you do it?" And the man said, 'Well, who are all those men you had there?' He said, 'I  don't no men. It was just my wife and I. He said, 'N no, no, no. Your house was surrounded by these  muscular men in white garments with drawn swords.

There's no way we could have hurt you that night.  Well, what's the explanation for that? I I think. it could very well have been an angelic encounter  that God had sent angels to protect him. Um, and there's multiple numbers of cases like  that. Well, give give me another. Well, uh, I had an encounter myself when I was, uh, 12  years old. Um, I was, um, uh, it was the only.

dream I remember as a child. It was a more of a  vision than a dream. Um, an angel appeared to me. and started extolling heaven, how beautiful and  wonderful heaven is. And, and I I looked at him. kind of off-handedly and said, "Well, you know,  I'm going to go there someday." And he looked at. me and said, "How do you know?" And I was shocked  by that. How do I know? And I started to kind of. stumble around to justify my goodness. I said,  'Well, I obey my parents pretty much and I get. good grades in school and my friends liked me and  I'm trying to justify why I would get into heaven.

And he looked at me and he said, "That doesn't  matter." And this chill went through my spine. I I what how can this not matter? And and and he  said, "Someday you'll understand." And then he. disappeared. Well, I kind of wrote it off as being  a bad pizza and ultimately became an atheist. Um, but 16 years later as an atheist, my wife brought  me to a church and I heard the gospel for the. first time that salvation that the doors of  heaven are not flung open based on how nice. you are to your parents or how how how good  grades you get in school. It's based on the.

grace of God. It's not something we earn. It's  a free gift of God's grace. And I heard that. message for the first time and my mind flashed  back to that dream and I thought, wait a minute, that's what he was trying to tell me back then.  Had you thought a lot about that dream in the sub? It would come to me every once in a while. I think  about it. I just suppress it. H was a bad pizza, you know. Um but then I thought there's two forms  of corroboration there. Number one, that angel. told me something when I was 12 years old that I  did not already know that salvation is by grace.

And secondly, he made a prophecy, a prediction  that someday I would understand that came true. 16 years later. I think that may have been a an  angelic encounter that I had. I can't prove it, but that corroboration tells me maybe it really  was. So, we see cases like this around the world, and there's more than 200 references of angels in  the Bible. Um, there's not 100. Yeah. Yeah. So,

lots of evidence that indeed this is part of  God's creation. Interesting. I've been to church. I don't know that I've probably the wrong kind  of church, but I don't know that I've ever heard. anyone refer to it as funny you say that because  I was giving a talk the other day and I said, you know, I've been a Christian now since November  the 8th of 1981. I have never heard a sermon on. the topic of angels ever. Ever. Why? I don't know.  And and I go and so in this book, I delve into it. and and I learn some new things. For instance, do  we have a guardian angel? Well, there's actually.

two passages in the Bible that suggest maybe we  do have a guardian angel. In one passage, Jesus is. talking to a group and there's some children there  and he said, "Do not despise these little ones. because their angels see the face of God every day  in heaven." Well, who are their angels? And then. secondly, Peter when he escapes from prison goes  to a home where some Christians had gathered and. he knocks on the door and the servant says, "Who's  there?" And he says, "Peter." and she recognizes. his voice and she calls out to the other people  and says, "Hey, Peter's here." Well, they said,

"Can't be here. He's in prison. Can't Peter can't  be here. It must be his angel." So, based on those. two passages, there are Christians who believe  that we have an angel assigned to us. In fact, in I believe in the Orthodox Christian tradition,  uh they believe an angel is assigned to you at. the time you're baptized. Um I don't know. There  are Christians who deny that. Um but it could be. But the other thing I learned in my investigation  of angels, I thought, you know what? Um, I don't.

think it's appropriate to pray to angels. I don't  believe we're taught to do that. I think there's a. slippery slope if you pray to angels that it might  might uh slip into worship of angels, which would. be blasphemous. Um, but there's nothing wrong with  praying to God about angels. Martin Luther in the. small catechism uh has a prayer uh an evening  prayer that says,"Lord, send your holy angels. to protect me from the evil one." And so I I never  used to do this, but I now make part of my prayer.

that God would send angels to protect me and my  family, my ministry, my grandchildren. And so, um I I think that's totally appropriate to do.  Hate to brag, but we're pretty confident this show. is the most vehemently pro- dog dog podcast you're  ever going to see. We can take or leave some. people, but dogs are non-negotiable. They are the  best. They really are our best friends. And so, for that reason, we're thrilled to have a new  partner called Dutch Pet. It's the fastest growing.

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to learn more. Use the code Tucker for 50 bucks  off your veterinary care per year. Your dogs, your cats, and your wallet will thank you. You  We're going to get to demons in a second, but you. um use the phrase the evil one. Yeah. So, at  you know, the foundational Christian prayer. is what we call the Lord's Prayer um handed down  by Jesus himself, right? Uh and at the end of it. um after you know we seek forgiveness and forgive  those who've sinned against us. Lead us not into.

temptation but deliver us from evil is the way  that most I think Americans learn the prayer. Yeah. But there's another interpretation that says  deliver us from the evil one. That's right. Yeah. And I I didn't know that until later in life, but  I um I suspect that that was kind of toned down. because the evil one is a little bit too too  supernatural. Yeah. Well, you know, there is. an embarrassment in American culture towards some  of these supernatural phenomena. In other words,

American Christians often want to be accepted  and seen as normal by their neighbors. Oh, yes, I go to church and yes, I believe in Jesus, but  you know, you won't catch me talking about angels. or demons or miracles or any of this weird  stuff. They want to be accepted as being. normal by other people. And so, I think there's  a lot of people that just don't delve into this. There's a deemphasis. There's a deemphasis in  many churches and in many Christian lives. And. yet Jesus clearly believed not only in angels, but  he was an exorcist. You know, even skeptics will.

admit according to the gospels that Jesus was an  exorcist. So he believed in Satan. He believed in. demons. Well, it was one of the primary activities  of life on earth. Exactly. Look at the gospel of. Mark. I think half of his activity is is related  in some way to fighting demons. So um u this is. something as a Christian that we ought to believe  and then consider what are the implications of. this that if this is true if there is a demonic  realm if there is an angelic realm what are the.

implications to me today? Um, well, I would put  it in another way. Has there are you aware of. any society in the in the known history of the  human race that didn't believe that there was. a supernatural realm filled with good and evil?  Yes. It's virtually universal. Yeah. I've never. heard of any culture that didn't believe that,  except postwar West. Yeah. Drop the atom bomb, get rid of the supernatural, right? Cuz we're  God now. Yeah, that's right. But before then,

I mean, I I just think this was taken as a matter  of course, right? Of course. Yeah. Naturally. So, if every society in known history reaches the same  aversion of the same conclusion, Yeah. it suggests. maybe there's something there. It sure does.  It sure does. Why would you come up with that? Exactly. You know, it's funny. Um people will say,  well, you need extraordinary evidence to prove. um an extraordinary claim, which I don't think  is legitimate. I don't think that stands up to. scrutiny. But let's take it for a moment on face  value and say you need extraordinary evidence to.

prove an extraordinary claim. Well, the claim  that there are demons is not an extraordinary. claim because 95% of humanity through history has  believed in it. So if you're an atheist, the the. onus is on you. You must present the extraordinary  evidence that the demonic does not exist. Well, there are also moments in the life of every person  who's awake and not on fentanyl. Maybe even people. who are on fentanyl. Um, I hope where you know  that you are being acted on by an outside force.

of some kind. You have no idea what it is. But  there are moments when you are much better than. yourself, much more empathetic. And there are  other moments where you're seized by the desire. to destroy for the sake of destruction, which is  also doesn't make any sense. There's no kind of. evolutionary biological accounting for that. Why  would you want to destroy something for no reason? Yeah. Another person, an object. But the impulse  to destroy, right? clearly the hallmark of evil, right? It is. And it's consistent with the  Christian teaching that the demonic realm exists,

that it is intent on uh luring us away from him  and and and luring us down a pathway that is dark. and that is dangerous. But people feel that. You  don't have to be a Christian to have felt that. If. you're if you're honest with yourself, there are  moments where you're like, "Why did I do that?". Yeah. Right. And yet we do have cases where um  we have evidence that there is a demonic realm. All right. So let's go. Let me ask you one last  angel question because I'm trying to faithfully.

go in order based on cuz you can judge a book  by its cover. I've decided. Um so you said that. angels in the New Testament and perhaps also in  the Old it uh angels are described as present in. our world. Yes, we will mistake angels for people.  Very well. That's right. That's predicted. So, do you think that happens? And and if so, can you  give us an example? And what would be the purpose. of that? Yeah. You know, it's interesting in Heb  in the book of Hebrews, it says that we will do it.

unbeknownst to ourselves. So, in other words,  the implication is that we will have angelic. encounters, but we won't realize they're angels.  Um, and and I think that does happen. Now, I have. a couple of cases in my book. One is a pastor who  is driving his car in Ohio. Um he uh loses control. of the car. He hits a um telephone or an electric  transformer kind of a pole type of thing. Um the.

wires fall down on his car. The doors are jammed  shut. The electricity is courarssing through the. car. So much so that the windshield starts to  melt. Um and he's trapped in this car. He don't. know what to do. Um, and he begins to pray. God, I  I'm stuck. I don't I don't know what to do. And a. man, scruffy kind of guy, comes walking up to the  car and he opens the car whose doors were jammed. He opens the door. He reaches in. He lifts out  this pastor and takes him about 50 yards away.

from the car, which then explodes. And he says  to the pastor, he says, "You're going to be okay. You're okay now." but the police are on their way  and I can't be here when they get here. So, you're. just know that you're okay. And he walked away and  disappeared. Now, the people, the medics who came, the u emergency technicians and so forth that  came as a result of the accident and they look.

at the cars say they can't explain how this is  possible that somebody could have opened that car. door and not been electrocuted and rescued this  pastor. And yet, it happened. And the pastor says, "I believe it was an angel." Well, maybe could  have been. Um, how do you prove something like. that? But I mean, how do you explain it away  naturally? How do you explain it a way that he's. able to come grip the car door and open up this  car that had been jammed shut? Um, so I think,

yeah, there are cases where I think the logical  explanation, the most reasonable explanation, if you don't rule out the supernatural at the  outset, is that it was an angelic encounter. Amazing. Amazing. Um, but they're probably  more subtle Yeah. experiences, too. Yes. No. doubt. Where you learn something, you encounter  somebody out of nowhere who tells you something. or who tests your your compassion. Yeah. Yeah.  Could very well be. And even the the uh incident.

I had that seemed to as an atheist. So here I am  in this church nearly 30 years old hearing this. um understanding the gospel anyway for the first  time and um that encounter I had with an angel is. something that helped open my heart to the truth  of the gospel. Um amazing. Of course I had to. spend two years of my life investigating it from  a you know just to kind of conclude that it really. was true. But it did propel me down that road  toward God. What are demons? Demons are fallen.

angels. The Bible The Bible is is a little bit  vague on this, but apparently what happened there. was a um kind of funny if I could just pause.  This is my totally ignorant read of it. Yeah. But. when the supernatural host when you know all these  supernatural beings are referred to in the Bible, there's almost a sense in which the the writer is  assuming the reader already knows all this. Yes, that's right. It doesn't it doesn't have a passage  that says, "By the way, right, these things are.

real. Yeah, let me explain all this to you." It  doesn't do that, which is interesting. Um because. the the I mean the the culture at the time was  familiar with this and there was like kind of no. debate that there was a supernatural. It's sort of  like the soul. I have a chapter in the book on the. existence of the soul and um because a lot of um  scientists today will deny that the soul exists. Um the Bible doesn't say by the way you have  a soul and here's let me define it for you. It.

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of first among angels. Name means morning star.  Yeah. Lucifer. Um um he becomes Satan which and. the name Satan literally means adversary. Uh and  so the implication of scripture is that this this. very prominent angel named Lucifer wanted to be  worshiped. He's the one who wanted the worship. And so his pride is what resulted in him falling  from the angelic realm. Um becoming Satan, becoming someone. I mean, think about this. When  Jesus encounters Satan, what is it Satan wanted.

from him? Worship. Satan. Satan wanted Jesus to  worship him. And that's what Lucifer wanted. He it. was pride that got in the way. He becomes Satan.  And a certain percentage of the angels accompanied. him in this fall. This happened before the fall  of humankind in the Garden of Eden. So, this. predates that. Um, we don't know how many angels  accompany him, but there are a lot of angels in. in Revelation 5. There's a scene of Jesus on the  throne being worshiped. And if you do the math,

because it it talks about it a little cryptically.  It was a 100 million angels worshiping him at that. time. So there's a lot of angels and a percentage  of them fell with Lucifer beca he became Satan and. angels became his his his minions so to speak.  Um now Satan is limited in his power. He's not. omnisient like God is. He's not omniresent like  God is. In other words, a guy was telling me he.

said there's probably never a time when you  and Satan have both been in the same zip code. because he's only in one place at a time. And uh  so he's got things he's doing. He probably never. been in the same zip code you have, but his demons  probably have been. And they carry out his will, which is to pull people away from God, to to um um  discourage people in finding God, and to drag as. many people to hell with him as they can. Now, his  existence, he's sort of on a leash by God at this.

point. Uh his ultimate destination in the lake of  fire is already predicted. Uh so he has no future. really but he has influence um and he has certain  powers um and uh he's uh he and the demons very. intuitive. Um they'll you'll think they know more  than they know and they go after people. Uh I tell. the story in my in my book about a very prominent  psychiatrist uh named Richard Gallagher educated.

Ivy League University. Um I have a quote from  the former president of the American Psychiatric. Association calling him um highest integrity um  um um totally um trained and and prominent in his. field of psychiatry. Of course he's a medical  doctor because he's a psychiatrist um just. extolling him as an individual and as a scientist  as a psych a psychiatrist. And about 25 years ago. he had two cats and um they got along great. They  slept together. They played together. Everything.

was fine until one night the cats started to  attack each other viciously. I mean, they're. trying to kill each other. They're clawing each  other. They're snarling each other. They're biting. each other. It was it was unbelievable. And they  they pulled them apart and put them into separate. rooms and thought, "What in the world was that all  about?" At 9:00 a.m. the next day, the doorbell. rings and it was a preset appointment. A Catholic  priest was bringing by a woman to be examined by. Dr. Gallagher. uh she claimed that she was a high  priestess of a satanic cult. Um and he wanted her.

to be examined. Was she demonically possessed? Was  she just crazy? Or what is this all about? So at. 9:00 a.m. the doorbell rings for his appointment  and Dr. Gallagher opens the door and here's this. woman who claims to be a high priestess of a  satanic cult who kind of looks up at him and. sneers at him and says, "So, how'd you like those  cats last night?" O yeah. um there's something.

going on. And that took him on a journey where  he as a psychiatrist who understands what mental. illness is and understands comes to understand  what demon possession and demon oppression is. like. um he spends the next 25 years um as kind  of the go-to guy in the in the uh medical realm. for exorcists of the Catholic faith and uh has  witnessed amazing things that he documents and I. quote him in the book cases where we have a woman  who um in front of eight eyewitnesses levitates.

off a bed for 30 minutes. Um, another case where  people are speaking in Latin and other languages. that they don't know, where they spontaneously are  are bruised and clawed, where um, uh, one petite. woman picked up a 200 pound Lutheran deacon and  threw him across a room. I mean, these are things, as he said, they go beyond psychiatry. Um, he  believes these are actual demonic possessions. Now.

a a true Christian cannot be demonically oppress  uh supp uh possessed and the reason is a true. Christian is indwwellled by the Holy Spirit. You  can't be indwwellled by evil and good like that. in the same way at the same time. So Christians  cannot be possessed but they can be oppressed. They can be hectored. They can be bothered. They  can be attacked by demons. And um there are some. uh amazing examples of that. And I just mentioned  a couple um of people who uh are hectored or.

bothered by demons. Um now for Christians, the  book of um James says to if if you rebuke Satan, he'll go away. So if you're a Christian, you  don't have to be afraid that you know these. demons are going to somehow possess you or or or  kill you or whatever. Um greater is he who is in. you than he who is in the world, the Bible says.  And so, uh, you can, the Bible says if you if you,

um, shun Satan, he he has no choice. He's got to  he's got to leave you. Um, so for a Christian, you you're protected. Um, but I I I fear for those  that aren't don't have that kind of protection. Um, there are cases of of demon possession that,  as Dr. Gallagher and others have documented. um are corroborated in ways that I don't think  they can be denied. How can you corroborate a.

supernatural event? I think by the um when there's  when there's no naturalistic explanation for what. occurs. So you have a woman for instance in front  of eight eyewitnesses levitating off a bed for 30. minutes. I don't know what the natural explanation  for that would be. That's right. you know, so I think it points towards something beyond  that. Um, for me, as I investigate, another. area I investigate in the book are miracles.  And for me, if you have solid documentation, medical documentation, if you have multiple  eyewitnesses with no motive to deceive, if you.

have no natural explanation that seems logical  that it can account for the phenomenon, and if. it takes place in the context of prayer, then I  think it's logical to conclude that a a miracle. has taken place. Yes. And there have been miracles  published in peer-reviewed medical journals. I talk about one in my book. Here's a woman who  was blind for 12 years with incurable condition.

She went to a school for the blind. She learned to  read Braille. She walked with a white cane and she. married a Baptist pastor. And one night they're  getting ready to go to bed. She's already in bed. He comes over to her and he puts his hand on her  shoulder and he begins to cry. And he begins to. pray and he says, "Lord, I know you can heal my  wife. I know you can heal her right now and I. pray that you do it tonight." And with that, she  opened her eyes eyes to perfect vision. She said, "I was blind when my husband prayed for me. I open  she he prayed. I open my eyes. I can see. It's a.

miracle." Um, that was researched by multiple  medical researchers and published in a medical. journal as a case study. What do you do with that?  What do you do with that? What did they do with. it? I think you it kind of leaves it up to the to  the the reader to say, "What's your conclusion?". because they were upset by it. Well, yeah,  it certainly certainly does point toward a. supernatural event. But here's what's interesting.  There's a woman with a PhD from Harvard,

uh, who's a professor at Indiana University,  major secular university, and she said, "I'd. like to test whether miracles are possible. How  can we scientifically test that?" So, here's what. she did. Miracles tend to cluster in places where  the gospel is just breaking in. And so we see him. in China, in Mosamb beek, in Brazil, places where  the gospel is taking root. We see miracles taking. place in a disproportionate number. So she says,  I'm going to put it to the test. So she sends a.

team of scientists to Mosamb beek and researchers  to Mosamb beek and they go into the bush and they. say, bring us all your deaf and blind. So they  bring all the people deaf, blind or with severe. hearing or vision problems. They bring them and  they test them scientifically right there. What. is your le level of vision? what is your level of  hearing? They get that scientifically established. Then immediately they are prayed for in the name  of Jesus by people who tend to have a track record. of God using them that way. And then immediately  after that, they're tested again. Guess what they.

found? Improvement in virtually every case.  In fact, get this. The average improvement. in visual acuity was tenfold. There was a woman  named Martine. When they first encountered her, she could not hear the equivalent of a jackhammer  next door. After 10 minutes of prayer, she could. now hear normal conversations. Well, this team is  flumxed by this. It's like, wait, what? Something. is going on here. Um, virtually every person  improves some some of them dramatically. So,

like Martin, let's see if we can replicate it.  So, we'll go to another place where uh miracles. are breaking in Brazil. They did the same test.  They got the same results. In fact, there was. a woman in Brazil. She couldn't see me holding  up three fingers from nine feet away. And after. prayer for her healing, she could read the name  tag of the person praying for her. Tucker, this. was published. This is a scientifically rigorous  study that was published in a um peer-reviewed.

secular scientific medical journal, major medical  journal, the Southern Medical Journal published. this. And I interview in my book, I interview  the scholar that did that study and I said, "What. do you make of this?" And she said, "Something's  going on." She said, "This is we're not playing on. people's emotions. This is not some televangelist  trying to get people to send in their money. This. is not some people at a predisposition for  anything. Something is going on." And I I.

think she's right. I think it's miraculous. It  sounds it what? And and I think every person. who's awake has experienced something that just  doesn't doesn't have a natural% I did a study I. hired a public opinion firm to do a scientifically  accurate study of American adults and I asked the. question have you ever had one experience at  least in your life that you can only explain. away as being a miracle of God. 38% of American  adults said yes. And by the way, let's say 90 99%.

of them are wrong. Let's say they think it was  a miracle, but it was just a big coincidence. So let's just wipe out 99% and say, "No, no, no.  You thought it was a miracle. It really wasn't.". Let's wipe away 99%. Guess what? That would still  mean there would be a million miracles nearly in. the United States alone. So you're right. So many  people have experienced something in their life. that they can only attribute to being a miracle  of God. The official story on 911 is a complete.

lie. The 9/11 report is a joke. You have the  CIA following two men all over the planet. and eventually even to America, right? And you  don't tell the FBI 911 commission to cover them. So, what did happen? What did the government  know? What did foreign governments know? There.

was a cover up. Why? It's been nearly 25  years. It is time Americans learned what. actually happened. We're going to tell you.  We're releasing one episode per week. You're. not going to want to wait. If you're a  member, you don't have to. You get all. five episodes the day it drops. Right then,  ad free. Our first episode airs Thursday, 9:11, September 11th. You will not want  to miss it. Join us now at tuckerclson.com.

when Jesus performs miracles healing people. Yes.  Um making the lame walk, fixing the man with the. withered hand. Yeah. Um, even when he casts out  demons from the man in the cemetery on the Sea of. Galilee, the reaction he gets from particularly  religious authorities, the Pharisees, they hate. it. Yes, they hate it. Yes, they do. It's funny  you say that. Why is that? Well, yeah. I I I wrote.

a novel once um fiction book of fiction. It was  like a John Gisham thriller. Nobody read it. It. was a big bomb. Nobody bought my book. But um  in that book um I have a politically ambitious. pastor and there's a miracle. Is there anything  worse? Yeah, that's right. And and there's a. miracle that happens in his congregation and a  reporter comes to question him about it and the. reporter's thinking, "Oh my gosh, the evidence is  overwhelming some of him." And the and the pastor. is downplaying it. No, no, no, no, no. That's just  a coincidence. That can't be true. The pastor is.

because why? because he wants to be he doesn't  want to be seen as being weird by the community. at large and it would poison his political  chances. So I there is something true to that. in Americans and we tend to suppress it. Yeah. Not  I mean but I mean this is an account from 2,000. years ago. No Americans in the New Testament and  they had the same reaction. But the religion they. they did not like Jesus. They did not like his  message. They did not like who he was. I get it.

I think they'd be happy that the lame man can walk  after 30 years. You know, at least they could say, "Hey, good for you. That's great. By the way, we  don't like this Jesus guy." But no, they didn't. They just said, "We don't like this Jesus guy."  No, actually, they plotted to kill the man he he. and they did. Yes. Exactly. Um, so there's uh a  couple references, at least a couple references, um, in the New Testament to Satan being the ruler  of the earth. Yes. Um, what does that mean? It. means that in this realm, he uh, in many ways has  his way. In other words, he has access to be able.

to influence people and um point them away from  the one true hope that there is, which is God. Um. and and so he prowls about, as the Bible says, as  a lion um hoping to tear people apart spiritually. I mean, if that's not true, then explain the First  World War. Yeah. I mean, there is just no there's. no explanation even now over a hundred years later  for why that war started. Oh, you know, Archduke.

Ferdan got shot to death in Sievo. Really? Okay.  That's not a real explanation actually. Why did. Christian Europe commit suicide? Yeah. And and  there many other wars and many other um tragedies. in all of our lives. Like that doesn't make any  sense. That's clearly supernatural forces are. acting on people. I agree. And um and so what  I tried to do is say, okay, what evidence is.

there that there's more than what we can see and  touch? And and because I'm fascinated by this, and the reason I say that, uh Tucker, is because  if this is true, if demons do exist, we ought to. be heads up about it because the two biggest  mistakes we can make about the demonic realm, number one, is to deny that they exist. And number  two, to see a demon behind every bush and think. they're more powerful than they are. They're  both problems. But I think the biggest problem. in our culture is to deny that there is a demonic  realm. Pretend like there isn't. So what are the.

hallmarks of it then? Well, I think some things  you mentioned, we see manifestations of it in. ways that defy natural explanations. Um uh and I  think that's probably the best way of um disorder, distraction, chaos, violence, hate, division. And  you think if if Satan were smart, which he is, um would he go around the country and around  the world trying to possess or bother average. everyday people? Well, you know what? Much more  efficient to go to Hollywood and to influence a.

bunch of people there who are very influential  in, let's say, the entertainment industry. And. let's say he encourages them to create films  and television shows that are funny and that. are creative and that are fun. But there's an  underlying message to them that there's a a. normalization of immoral activity um that makes it  normal because you know when we laugh it opens us. up to to various possibilities. When we laugh our  defenses come down. So I'm thinking of a wonderful.

funny TV show like Friends. Remember Friends the  TV show was on TV for years. Very popular show. only America who never saw it. But yeah, but  underlying that is a very ugly sexual ethic. um that that normalizes multiple sexual partners  and that sort of thing. The kind of thing that. Satan would love to inculcate into American  culture. And you know what? I think it's much more. efficient for Satan to uh influence movie makers  and TV makers in Hollywood to create products that.

um feed us stuff that without us even realizing  it open us up to the occult, open us up to immoral. activity, normalize it in ways that well if Monik  to do that on friends, I can certainly have sex. on the first date with this guy I meet. So the  way I as a non- theological ignorant person try. and figure out whether something's good or bad  because it is an open question very often. It's.

like is that good or bad? I'm not sure. Yeah.  Are the people doing it at peace and joyful, happy? Yeah. Are they tormented? Yeah. And I know  a lot of people in Hollywood, a lot of people I. like actually. Um not too many happy people. Yeah.  Some really tormented people for real. string of. wrecked relationships, kids who hate them, trans  kids, drug problems, like there's so much of that. Do you think that's a fair way to assess? I think  because it is logical that if Satan were to try.

to influence a culture in a mass way that that is  a logical way that he would do it. And oh, guess. what? By the way, look at all the dysfunction we  see in that community. It does seem to match up. So if evil is acting through you, you are harmed  too. Generally, I would say yes. You're going to. be a um you're going to be someone who's trying  to influence others. Um you may not realize the. full destroys you. Yeah, it does destroy you. It  certainly it certainly seems to. Yeah, I think so.

Who who would you know God created us so we could  have a relationship with him? So he he taught us. how we can live in a way that maximizes who we  are. And when we stray from that in in egregious. ways, as many people have and do, um, uh, there  are implications for us. If I were trying to. subvert and destroy, I would go after religious  leaders. Yeah. I'd have them like molest kids.

or get freaky sex lives or steal money from the  church. Yes. And you do I've always noticed that. the leadership of Christian churches in just like  numerically Yeah. way more likely to be screwed up. than the people in the pews. Interesting. Do you  know what I mean? You see these sex scandals with. pastors and you're like, how many people who are  going to church every Sunday have sex lives like. that? Probably not very many, but a pretty  high percentage of pastors. And I feel like. that is outside influence. Look at teachers too.  Teachers, young kids look up to, you know, you can.

imagine when you were kindergarten, first grade,  second grade, you looked up to your teachers. Not. one time. There's not one teacher I liked or Oh,  really? Nope. Oh, I sure did. I never know. I felt. it was a an authoritarian situation. I was I was  totally opposed from kindergarten on till I left. college. There was not one day where I respected  or liked any of them. Not a single one. That is. that is so that is so I I happened to go to public  school growing up and yet back then in the 50s. and 60s uh most of the teachers were Christians.  Yeah. And uh so no I had some wonderful teachers.

that taught me great lessons about uh uh life.  So I I You grew up in a better America than I. did. In Southern California in the 70s, I thought  they were all buffoons, freaks. I wasn't taking. orders from them. I really dislike them. Sorry.  Excuse me. That's funny. But um but but if you. want to lead people astray, you subvert their  leaders, I guess. Yes. Yes. Very much so. I mean,

yeah. Just put yourself in Satan's place. How are  you going to impact the maximum number of people? You're going to want to go after leaders. You're  going to want to go after religious leaders. You're going to want to go after uh children. Um  you're going to, you know, and influence them at. a young age. Um we see all of that. I often think  this is such a wonderful country despite all its. problems. I'm totally convinced it's the best  country having been to a lot of countries. Yeah. But our leadership is the worst. They're they're  the worst. They're like the worst people I've ever.

met. And maybe that's not accidental. Yeah. I mean  there uh could it be I'll just raise a question. Could it be that some people have received some  assistance from uh demonic um certainly in terms. of achieving what they've achieved? How many  happy political I don't know how many political. leaders you know but how many happy ones have  you met? Gosh, not a lot I trust. Put it that. way. Right. But they're all like tormented, sweaty  and nervous and afraid. Don't you think those are.

signs? I do. I do. And you look at if if Satan's  going to go after children, what is all this stuff. about libraries doing children's readings of and  drag shows to to little kids? Why why would that. happen? You know what? Because if you can capture  the mind of a child very young, it could influence. them for the rest of their life. Um Well, it  happens because we put up with it. Yeah, we do. A. healthy society would not put up with that. That's  true. For five minutes. That's true. Yeah. Sorry.

They drive them out of the temple immediately  with a whip. Yeah. Sorry. Excuse me. Um, so you think that um you believe that demons roam  the earth? Yes. How do you protect yourself? Uh, the Bible talks about in Ephesians talks about the  full armor of God and and is and I talk about this. in a book. I have a half a chapter that looks at  ways that we can protect ourselves. I think the. key number one way is to be knowledgeable about  scripture because if the Bible is really from God,

then that is the plum line of truth. And if  it's the plum line of truth, we can measure. everything against it. And so if we're tempted by  something that violates that plum line of truth, then we can be assured that's not from God. Uh  and so I think being familiar with what are the. teachings of of the Bible um uh so that we can um  um deter any effects any attempts by Satan to lead. us down a path that's clearly not biblical. Um  so I I think that's probably the number one way I.

think prayer is important. I I think honestly and  I say this granted as an evangelist who wants to. drag as many people to heaven with me as I can.  That's my life goal now as a former atheist. Um. um I will say the best way to protect yourself is  to come into a relationship with God through Jesus. Christ. Um because if you are indwwellled by the  Holy Spirit, you can't be possessed by Satan. And. uh and you can tell Satan to flee. And the Bible  says he will flee. What is the Holy Spirit? Holy.

Spirit, you know, the the God is one what and  three who's. Uh the Bible teaches there is one. God. That's clear. But it also teaches that the  father is God, that the son is God, and the holy. spirit is God. And so we have three, we have one  what is God and three persons. Um and so the Holy. Spirit um u being disembodied and so forth comes  into the life of someone when they repent of their.

sin, receive forgiveness through Christ. Um John  1:12 says, "But as many as received him, to them. he gave the right to become children of God,  even to those who believe in his name." But in. practical terms, like what is the Holy Spirit? So  the Holy Spirit comes into you. Then what happens? Yeah. The Holy Spirit indwells you. Now you've got  a plum line inside of you, so to speak, and you. recognize uh I'm sure you see things in your life  now as a Christian that you did before you were a. Christian. You say, "Why did I even do that? What  was I messing with that?" I certainly have those.

examples. uh because now being indwwellled by the  Holy Spirit as a follower of Jesus um I have that. plum line to tell me what's godly and what's  not. And so it's it it aids our conscience in. understanding that. Um and by being indwelled by  the Holy Spirit, it means we cannot be possessed. by Satan as we see these demon possessions. Um  uh and and those are increasing in numbers. The. Catholic Church has just added a whole bunch of  people to um who are trained in exorcisms. Um.

you see in charismatic ministries, deliverance  ministries. Um I think we're seeing an increase. in demonic activity and in demons hectoring and  harassing and oppressing and possessing people. I think we're seeing an increase in that. Um, are  there certain places I mean there are physical. places I have been where the hair on my arm go  up? Yeah, me too. And without any, you know, fornowledge. Yeah. Not like there's a really  spooky place. Watch this. It's like there's.

some place I can think of a few of them in my  life where it's like woo I don't know what this. is about. What is that? Well, think of Haiti.  Think of Haiti. I've been to Haiti and I feel. that. good friend who has a ministry in Haiti and  that's that's a place that has opened itself up to. the demonic through human sacrifice human through  voodoo through all these things and it is a place. where you palpably feel evil often uh I was in um  some remote parts of India and felt the same thing.

in many places. So I I think there is there just  as miracles tend to break out in a positive way in. places where the gospel is breaking in. I think  we probably see pockets around the globe where. Satan has a stronghold. Um and I I I would think  that physical places physical places. Yeah. Like. I think Haiti is a good example of that. I've been  in some places in the US where I felt that really. strongly. Like I've been I was in a house once.  I lived in a house once as a child where part of.

the house there's something so wrong with it and  every person who lived in the house knew that. Does that sound could be could be could be an  occultic thing? Yeah. Um what's a mystical dream? Mystical dreams I talk about these in the book is  so fascinating to me. Um we have seen more Muslims. become Christians in the last couple of decades  than in the 1400 years since Muhammad. And it's. been estimated that a quarter to a third of them  before they became a Christian had a Jesus dream.

Now what's interesting about that is that these  are corroborated dreams. I I'll tell you what I. mean by that. Um first of all a devout Muslim has  no incentive in in a let's say in a closed country. where it's even illegal to share the Christian  go uh gospel. They have no incentive to have. a dream as a product of their subconscious  mind about Jesus, the Jesus of Christianity,

because it might lead them into apostasy. It  might lead him to a death sentence in certain. countries. So there's no incentive for a devout  Muslim to have a dream about Jesus. And yet we. are seeing this all over the Middle East in  closed countries in in um oppress oppressive. countries where Christians are persecuted and so  forth. But here's the here's what I found most. fascinating in these cases. People are not going  to sleep as a Muslim, having a dream about Jesus,

and waking up as a Christian. That's not how it  works. There is always um something that points to. a phenomenon or an event or a person outside the  dream that corroborates the dream. Let let me give. you an example to clarify it. There was a woman  named No in Cairo, mother of eight, devout Muslim. She goes to sleep. She has a dream in which Jesus  visits her. It's unlike unlike any dream she's. ever had. And she feels the love and the grace and  the beauty of Jesus in such a profound way. She.

said, "Here I am, a woman in the presence of a man  for the first time my life. I didn't feel shame. I. felt love." And she's just overwhelmed by this.  And they're walking along a lake shore. And she. says, "Jesus, why do you appear to me? I'm just  a poor mother of eight in Cairo." And Jesus said, "My friend will tell you tomorrow." And she said,  "Who's who's your friend?" And Jesus gestures to a. man she didn't even realize was walking with them  along the lake shore because she was so mesmerized.

by Jesus. She didn't notice this guy. And he says,  "My friend will tell you tomorrow." She wakes up. the next day. She goes to the crowded marketplace  in Cairo on a Friday afternoon and she sees the. man from her dream. She goes up to him say,  "You're the one. You're the He's Whoa. What are. you talking about? You're the man. Same glasses,  same face, same clothes. You're the one. He said, "Did you have a dream about Jesus last  night?" He said, "Yes." Turned out he was.

an underground church planter. He didn't want to  go to the crowded marketplace in Cairo on Friday. afternoon. It's chaotic, but he felt God had an  assignment for him. So, he went that day. Nor. encounters him from the dream. He pulls her aside,  opens the Bible, and shares the gospel with her. That's the external corroboration that I'm talking  about. It's not just something that takes place in. your subconscious mind. There is an external  factor to it. I'll give you another example. There was I ask you so one of the miracles there  at least two in the story you just told. Yeah. And.

one of them is that the pastor felt the call to  go to the marketplace on a Friday and he obeyed. Exactly. Have you had that experience in your  life where you just feel like you're being told. to do something and you obediently do it? Oh  yeah. Oh yeah. I I remember as a new Christian. um I um I felt a really strong urging. I believe  it was from God to empty our bank account and send. a anonymous cashier's check to a woman, a single  woman in our church. Um send it anonymously and.

to do it on Friday. I don't know why, but it was  on to do it on Friday. And I my wife and I both. prayed about it and said, "Yeah, we we're both  feeling this. It's odd, but we feel it's legit. So to empty your bank account and send it to a  stranger. We emptied the bank account. We got. It's odd. Yeah. Well, that is Leah. That is odd.  Yeah. Yeah. Fair. Hey, it was only $500, but still. for us that was all back then. So, we send this  check. Did you know the woman? Yeah, we knew her.

Yeah. Nice woman. Uh, she had come to faith. She  had actually had a lot of negative experience with. Christians growing up, but she ended up coming to  faith through a debate on Christianity. We did in. our church between an atheist and a Christian. And  uh so she I knew who she was and so forth. So on. Monday morning, she calls me out of the blue and  and said and she's crying. She said, "Le, I don't. know what to do." I said, "What? What? What?  What's going on?" She said, "My car broke down. over the weekend. They say it's going to cost $500  for me to fix my car. I don't have $500. I'm going.

to lose my car. I'm going to lose my job because  I got to have my car for the job. Would you pray. for me that I would get this $500 somehow?" And  I said, 'Absolutely, I'll pray for me. You know, let's pray. And sure enough, that afternoon,  because I'd mail in Friday, Monday afternoon, she gets this anonymous $500 check. Um, so there's  Did you ever tell her? No, she doesn't. Now, unless she's listening, maybe she is she still  around? Oh, yeah. She's still Yeah. She actually.

quit her nursing job and join the staff of our  church. He used to deliver my mail every day. uh at the church. Wow. Yeah. So, I guess if she's  listening now, she'll know. But um you've never. told her. What year was that? No. Oh gosh. This  was I was a new Christian uh at the church. It. was probably 1987 somewhere in there. Yeah. Yeah.  So almost 40 years ago. Yeah. Yeah. So um so yeah, I think that does happen. Um where God influences  you. Do you try to be open? I do that. I do. When.

I pray, I try to leave time at the end of the  prayer. Say, "God, I'm just going to be quiet for. a while. If there's anything you want to tell me,  anything you need to alert me to, any way you want. to lead me, I'm just going to be quiet. I'm just  going to listen. And I just spend and normally. there's nothing. That day there was $500. But  normally, I don't feel anything that specific. Um, but it's okay because what's important is saying,  "I'm open, God, to anything you want me to do or.

what you want me to do. I'm open to it." Um, of  course, anything. The Bible says test the spirits. So if I'm feeling something, I want to test it to  make sure it's scriptural because God's not going. to tell me to do he's not going to go tell me to  poison my neighbor. All right? So it's going to. be consistent with scripture, but I want to leave  myself that opportunity to open myself up and say, "God, I'm I'm listening." And just pause for a  while and and see, is there something? And on that. day, there was something. It doesn't happen that  often, but every once in a while something will.

take place like that. Amazing. So you um sorry  for the for the culde-sac there. Um you believe. there has been an uptick in mystical dreams.  I Oh definitely in the Middle East. In fact, get this. In Cairo, there's often an ad in the  newspaper and the ad says, "Call this number and. we'll tell you about the man in white you met in  your dream last night." Really? Because there's so. many of these. I interviewed for my book, Seeing  the Supernatural. I interviewed uh Tom Doyle who.

is the world's leading expert on this and Tom  said, "Lee, I could pick up the phone right. now and I could call Syria. I could call Iraq.  I could call Iran and I'll give you five more. stories. They are so common. I'll give you one  from my church in Houston, Texas." So, I'm part. of a church. I live parttime in Houston, part of  a church there. I used to be on the staff. And um. um there was a woman who was born in the Middle  East in a closed country where you can't share. the gospel legally. And uh she had a a dream when  she was about 16 years old. And she said it was.

unlike any dream I ever had because it was like  a projector was projecting an image of of Jesus. And it it influenced her. It touched her but she  didn't know what to do with it. And um she said, "I was having problems with my life. I called  out for help." And that's what happened. Well, she ended up marrying a Muslim gentleman who was  transferred to Houston, Texas because of the oil. industry. So, she moves in into near our church  and she has another dream and in this dream she's.

up to her waist in a body of water and there's a  man with her with a book that's open and the man. is weeping and she's thinking, "What does that  mean? What what is that supposed to be about?". Well, a neighbor of hers goes to our church and  she invited her to come to Easter services at our. church because her husband was out of town. So,  she came to Easter services. She's sitting on the. aisle in the auditorium waiting for the service  to begin. And she sees the man who was with her in.

the pond with the book and she said, "That's the  guy. He was the one in my dream when I was in this. pond for no reason whatsoever, but I saw him."  Well, his name is Alan Spawn. Allan is our pastor. of baptism. Allan comes over, they introduce her.  This woman ends up receiving Jesus Christ as her. forgiver and leader. She becomes a Christian  and she learns about baptism. And sure enough, Alan Splawn takes her to the pond on our property  where we baptize new believers and with her water.

up to her waist and with Allen with a Bible open  and weeping at the joy baptizes her in the name. of the father, son, and holy spirit. So there's  a case in my own church in Texas like that. What. did her husband say when he got home? He doesn't  know to this day. He he doesn't know. He doesn't. know because she can't tell him. She said he would  he would who knows what he would do. She can't she.

can't. So she keeps she has a Bible that we gave  her. She keeps it hidden and um um she doesn't. go to church because she can't um so she has to  keep it hidden from her husband. Um Wow. It's sad, but again, she didn't knew nothing about baptism.  What What kind of a what kind of a mystical dream? You're standing up to your waist in water  with a guy with a book who's crying. I mean, what in the world is that all about? How do you  tell a difference between a conventional dream.

and a mystical dream? Or are all dreams mystical?  I I don't we don't know what dreams are, just for. the record, as a matter of science. No one's ever  been able to explain what that is. Yeah. You know, it's interesting. God is in control of all. And  so in a sense everything is spiritual, right? I. mean God God rules and so forth. So in a sense any  dream is spiritual. I think to me a mystical dream. is one that has a strong spiritual overtones.  And um there's no natural explanation to say this. could come from your subconscious mind. You know,  I think sometimes people will write off a dream uh.

as saying, "Well, that's just something that came  from your subconscious. Maybe you saw something. on television, you didn't even realize it and it  was in your subconscious and and but when you have. examples like the one I gave, um that doesn't make  sense. I'll give you another example. There was a. guy named Omar and Omar um grew up in a refugee  camp in the Middle East. Hated Jewish people. Hated Jewish people. His life goal was to murder  as many Jews as he could. And so he wanted to join.

Hamas. This is about a dozen years ago. He wanted  to join Hamas. So he makes arrangements to meet. with some leaders of Hamas. So he's walking down  the road toward that meeting and he's blocked by a. vision of Jesus who stops him and says, "Omar,  this is not the plan I have for your life. I. want you to turn around. I want you to go home.  This is not what I want for your life." Well,

it freaks him out, right? And so what does he do?  He turns around. He goes home that afternoon. He. lived in an apartment building. That afternoon,  an American family was moving into the apartment. across the hall and he goes over there and he  says, "I just had this vision of Jesus telling. me that." And he explained the vision and he says,  "As a Christian, can you tell me what it means?". And this Christian man said, "Well, let me just  do this." And he opens the Bible and he shares.

the gospel with him. And Omar not only becomes a  Christian but today he himself is an underground. church planter in the Middle East. Omar is not  his real name by the way. Um so there you have. again external corroboration. It the the the image  the vision he had pointed him ultimately towards. somebody else who then explained the gospel. That  to me tells me this is more than a subconscious. um manifestation of something in our heads.  Yes. Um, and that's what as as someone trained.

in journalism and law, I'm I'm looking for  those kind of um uh emphasis of corroboration. Visions are something we associate with  hallucinogenic drugs. Yes. What is that? What are the visions produced by Iawaska and LSD?  There there are um what I would call naturalistic. visions. In other words, visions that are caused  by things that we can determine are natural.

I mean natural medically natural in other words  chemicals I'll give you an example in 2011 I. had a condition called hyponitriia hyponitriia  is um a severe drop in your blood sodium level. uh and it causes your brain to expand in your  head well there's no room for your brain to. expand very much and so you have hallucinations  um and almost died as a result of it but just. out of the blue you had this well it was a  combination of several things I had. I was.

allergic to a drug that they had given me because  I'd lost my voice and they gave me a a steroid and. I was allergic to the steroid. I didn't know I  had pneumonia which can be a factor. I'd lost. um a kidney uh which I wasn't aware of and  that regulates sodium. So I had all these. weird things going. This is the job period. It  was a job period. That's right. So here I am. I had halluc I saw demons. Um I saw weird things.  Do I believe they were from God? No. Do I believe. they're from Satan? No. Do I believe they were  demons? No. I think they were a product of the.

medical problem I had of my sodium dropping  so low. How long did this go on and where. were you when you saw these visions? I was at  home and um I I finally fell unconscious. They. called the paramedics. I woke up in the emergency  room and the doctor looked down at me and said, "You're one step away from a coma, two steps away  from dying." And then I went unconscious again. The problem That was the message the doctor gave.  Pretty reassuring. I know. You think you could. have sugarcoated it a little. The last thing you  heard was you're dying. Yeah, I know. It's like,

hey, give me the give me it sugarcoat first,  but they h The problem is they have to raise. the sodium level very carefully because 25% of  people with this condition end up mentally or. physically disabled. Um, so they have to raise it.  So I was in the hospital about a week and they had. to gently slowly raise one potato chip at a time.  Exactly. So, do I think those were mystical? Do. do I believe I really saw a demon? Probably not. I  think that was a medically induced phenomenon. Um,

I don't have any external corroboration  other than to say it was these low sodium. that is known to cause hallucinations and  they had hallucinations. So, I think there. are medical things that can cause that. There  are drugs that can cause hallucinations. Now, God is overall. I get that. But um as a skeptic,  I'm always looking for those cases where we have. evidence that it's true beyond the experience  itself. There are certain forms of what we refer.

to as mental illness. Yeah. Which is like a phrase  invented by people pretty recently. Yeah. Um and. clearly there are forms of mental illness. I I  think I guess whatever that is. Um but there are. certain people who have visions that are very  unpleasant. Yes. and that bear like almost a. precise resemblance to the demonic possession  desri described in the New Testament. And they. may be they may be demonic. I I don't know. Uh  I have to evaluate each one to try to determine.

of course this is these are broad brushes. But  you do is it fair to uh conclude that maybe not. everything the shrink tells you is mental illness?  They can never describe where it comes from or. how to fix it. They have no idea. But whatever  they know nothing to be clear. Uh but is it fair. to assume that maybe some of that is spiritual?  Yes, I think it can very well be. I would look at. u you know all of the factors involved. Um where  we have the external corroboration like people.

left with scratches on them or bruises that cannot  be explained. Uh where we have levitation where. we have people speaking in a language they don't  know spontaneously speaking Latin. Um things like. that. then that is the external corroboration  to me that there's something demonic going on. It doesn't mean it couldn't be demonic. I'm just  saying those are the cases I'm more comfortable in. concluding that they're demonic when I've got that  kind of uh external corroboration. But speaking in.

languages you don't know is also can also be is  described as in in the Acts of the Apostles as. uh a manifestation of the Holy Spirit of God  indwelling. That's right. There there are other. languages people speak. Um but not when they're  spitting at um at at clergy who are trying to. exercise. Oh, is that a sign? Yeah, that could be  a sign. When you're cringing before a crucifix, you're trying to bite people. Um but what about  glosselia? What about speaking in tongues? Yeah, I.

that is a spiritual gift. There are Christians who  believe that those gifts have ended uh with the. apostolic age and are no longer applicable. There  are other Christians who believe they are still a. active in this world. I believe they are still  active. I've met Christians who speak in other. tongues. Um, and others who interpret that. Um, so  I believe it's it's it's a gift that still takes. place. I have not experienced that personally.  Um, but I have credible people who do and have.

experienced that. Um, there are other Christians  though who say, "No, no, no, that ended with the. apostles." Um, so that's one of those side issues  theologically that when we get to heaven, we can. raise our hands and ask God, "Hey, what about that  speaking in tongues thing?" Yeah. No, I know that. there is a debate over it. I I have no idea what  I think about it, but it is true. I guess just as. a factual matter, it's true that there are people  who seized by some unseen force begin speaking in. languages they have never learned. Yes. And often  this is a generally I would say this is not a.

language that other people speak. It is a or have  ever spoken. Yeah. Ever spoken. It's a spiritual. language. But then there's someone and this is  a good corroboration. Someone who can interpret. that and they understand it this language even  though it is a spiritual language. It's not. Latin. It's not Greek. It's uh it's a spiritual  language and that someone else is able to hear. and they have a gift as well to interpret what  is being said. Hm. Um I I got to take you down.

one other back alley here really quick. So there  um both the the Hebrews and the early Christians. um wrote extensively about the concept of a name.  Yeah. God's name. Holy be your name in the name. of God. The name of Jesus. What does that mean  exactly? Why the name? It means a couple things. I mean to to do things in the name of God, Yahweh,  in the name of God is to do something consistent. with how God is leading you and how scriptures  um would suggest that you act. So in other words,

to act in God's name is to do something consistent  with his character. Um so if I um do something. charitable uh to my personal loss and yet  to someone else who's at great in great need. um I do that in God's name. Um I do that because  this is what the Bible teaches me that I should. be generous and helpful toward people are hurting  right um um names you know names can in scripture.

you know you look at the name of Jesus is uh  called Emanuel. Well he was never called Emanuel. said it was his name. But what that means in in  the ancient language is um um that he's that he. is God with us. That's what Emanuel means, God  with us. And that was the name given to Jesus. But that wasn't the name he was called. Um but  it was a name that was associated with Jesus. So names have all kinds of um uh implications in  in ancient Judaism and early Christianity. Sure.

seems that way. I mean now we just name people  according to what uh everybody's what we see on. friends. Yeah. That's right. But but I mean you  know observant Jews do not spell out the name. of God. Right. They leave the vowels out because  the name is itself holy just the name. Yes. That's. right. The name. That's right. They would um and  and they would talk around the name. Uh there's a. verse in Luke 15 where it says um um that there  is rejoicing in heaven. Uh how does it go? Um.

yeah, I can't think of the exact terminology, but  basically it's a way of saying there's rejoicing. in heaven whenever a person becomes a Christian.  Um without saying the name of God rejoicing. It. kind of talks around that a bit. So there there's  a hesitation and in fact a uh something you didn't. want to do in ancient Jewish world is to use the  name of God. That was forbidden like at all. Yeah.

You wouldn't use it. You would and you wouldn't  spell it out. You talk around it because it's so. powerful, so holy. Yeah. It could hurt you. So  near-death experiences walk toward the lightly. What's a near-death experience? A near-death  experience is when a person is clinically dead. that is generally no brain waves, no respiration,  heartbeat. Yeah, they're clinically dead. Um yet.

they're going to be revived and so they are dead  for a period of time, clinically dead, but they're. not permanently dead. So the body will be revived  at some point. So by the measurements of science, they're dead. That's right. That's right. So  maybe right there if we just pause like maybe. right there we have further evidence that science  while useful of course and life improving in some. ways does not have the tools to measure the  totality of the experience. Well you know it is. so they're actually like that's the failure like  they're obviously not dead. Yeah that's right they.

are coming back. That's right. All the signs are  that they're dead. But you know the the Bible says. that and Christianity teaches that when a person  dies their spirit separates from their body. And. this is what we see in a near-death experience.  U this is evidence for the soul for the spirit. Um so the physical body is clinically dead.  There's there's no sign of life in the body. Uh they're still working on you. Has has once  again has there ever been a culture that we're.

aware of in the entire span of human history that  did not believe in the soul? They all did. They. thought that keyboard is meat puppets and exact I  quote I quote experts in the book that talk about. that that there has every civilization believed  in the spirit a spirit a soul um that continues. to live on after we die. Our leaders don't believe  that. Well, that's not only tragic, it's dangerous. because if you if you believe we are only our  brain, we're only neurons that are firing. Um,

uh, that means technically we have no free will.  And seriously, you're saying we don't have free. How do you punish someone for doing something  wrong if they really didn't have free will? It. also means we have no inherent rights. We have  no right and wrong. Does a rock have a right? No. Exactly. Right. So, so maybe that should  be the acid test for leadership. If you don't. believe human beings have souls, if if that's not  the basis of the way you understand other people, there's a separate person with a distinct and  unique soul. If you don't believe that, yeah,

you can have no power. Yeah. In our society. Is  that fair? I like that. I like I never thought. of that before, but I certainly wouldn't  trust a personally, morally, if if they. believed only that we are. I wouldn't I wouldn't  give him a driver's license. It's scary. It is. scary. You don't think other people have souls?  What? You're a psychopath? Exactly. I have a. um interview in my book with a PhD from Cambridge  University in neuroscience who says the evidence. is so persuasive that yes indeed we do have a  soul. We do have a spirit. Thank you. Yes, neuros.

confirm it. What's interesting is that we we  we um have cases where people are clinically. dead. Their spirit separates from their body  and they see or hear things that would have. been impossible for them to see or hear if  their spirit had not actually separated from. their body. So this is confirmation that  the soul exists. Interesting. And let me.

give you some examples. There's a woman named  Maria. She was dying in a hospital in London, England. And um but she said I was conscious the  whole time. And so here they are working on her. body trying to bring her back. She said my spirit  floated out of my body. I I met a divine being. Um. but mainly I'm I'm looking down from the ceiling  of the hospital room at the resuscitation efforts. I'm watching them trying to revive my body. And  then at some point the reviving works and the.

spirit returns to the body. And she says, "By  the way, see the ceiling fan here in this room, the hospital room? There's a red sticker on top  of one of the blades of the ceiling fan." Now, you. couldn't see it from the room because it's on the  top of one of the blades of the ceiling fan, but. she saw it because from her perspective near the  ceiling watching resuscitation, she was looking. down. So, they got a ladder. They went up there.  Sure enough, on the top of this blade, here's.

the sticker exactly as she has described it. That  tells me that she really did have an out-of- body. experience just as the Bible describes. And and  this is extremely common. We have a woman woman, a young girl, she was 9 years old, so I recall,  eight or nine. Um she drowned in a swimming. pool at YMCA. Wow. Uh horrible, horrible. Her  brain had swelled. Um she had no respiration.

uh no heartbeat. Um um she was clinically dead. So  they brought her to the hospital to keep her body. alive mechanically till they decided what to do,  you know. Um and they continued to try to revive. her. But uh as it turns out, 3 days later, she was  revived. Um and with no brain damage and she said, "Um, by the way, I was seriously Yeah." And she  said, "I was conscious the whole time." And they. said, "Well, that's not possible." And so the  doctors who were skeptical said, "Here, here's.

a piece of paper and a crayon. Why don't you draw  the emergency room where we took you when you were. dead?" So she picks up the crayon. She draws the  emergency room exactly as it appears. And then. she said, "By the way, one night when my parents  visited me in the hospital, I followed them home.". And I watched as my mom, she was making chicken  soup with rice on the stove. And my dad was. sitting in a certain chair and he was looking in a  certain direction. and her brother, she said, was. playing with a GIO Joe Jeep in his bedroom. Um,  and these are the clothes that they were wearing.

Everything was exactly correct. How do you explain  that if she didn't have an authentic out-of- body. experience um while she was clinically dead? So,  this is affirmation that near-death experiences. do point toward a spirit, a soul that separates  from her body at the time of death. Now, it can. return to our body if we're revived and and that's  what happens in these cases. Um, interestingly,

there was a study done of 21 blind people uh  either blind since birth or shortly thereafter. They were able to see or had visual life like  perceptions during their near-death experiences. So, there's a woman named Vicki. Wait, what? Yeah.  Vicki Umeipeg, 26 years old. She's blind virtually. since birth. She is killed in a car crash. She's  a passenger in a car. She's killed. But she said. later, "I was conscious the whole time." And she  her spirits floated out and she watched the she.

was able to see the resuscitation efforts. She was  able to see childhood friends who she'd never seen. in person, but she knew intuitively who they were.  Oh, that's Mary. That's Jimmy. She sees birds. for the first time. She sees trees and so forth.  And then when her body is revived and her spirit. returns to her body, she's blind again. medical  researchers said this is impossible um based on. current medical knowledge. How does this happen?  Um so there's a phenomenon here that tells me that.

there's corroboration that there's something uh to  this idea that we have a soul, a spirit that is um. um different than our physical brain and body. And  and I'll add this, this is really important. John. Burke is I interview him for my book. John Burke  is a Christian pastor who u with an engineering. degree and science background who studied 1,500  cases of near-death experiences in depth. He has.

video interviews with people and so forth. And  here's his conclusion. He said, "Lee, if you. look at not how people interpret what happens,  because we all interpret things through our world. view. If you're a Muslim, if you're a Hindu,  you're going to interpret things differently. Forget that. Set that aside. Just look at what  actually takes place during a typical near-death. experience. That is consistent with the Christian  Bible. And what is it that's consistent? Well,

uh things like um um encountering a a divine  being. Uh things like encountering people who. had preceded you in death. Um things like a life  review where your life is reviewed and you not. only experience with this divine figure next to  you who's encouraging you. It's not a judgmental. kind of a way. It's you're judging yourself.  you're you're you're um um you're reviewing every.

little action you took, but you're able for the  first time to see the ripple effects of that. So, I may have done something that hurt you years  ago and I never realized the impact that had on. you and and how that caused you to do this, that,  and the other thing. And yet, in this life review, you you see not only what you did, you did  good and you did bad, but the ramifications. of it. Yes. That's that takes place. Now, you're  not permanently dead. The Bible says in Hebrews,

we're appointed once to die and then the judgment.  So, you would think that biblically speaking, you would die and then you would encounter  judgment. Well, you're not permanently dead. You're coming back. This is not your permanent  death. So, this is kind of a a taste, a foretaste. of what death is like, but you're not permanently  dead. You're just clinically dead. Um, but you. still have some of the attributes of what the  Bible talks about in terms of of a judgment. So,

um, I think that's reassuring for Christians like  me who used to think, oh, that's new age stuff, near-death experience, that's weird. There have  been, Tucker, 900 scholarly articles written about. near-death uh, experiences in medical journals  and scientific journals over the last 50 years. This is a very wellressearched area and they have  concluded that there is no natural explanation. that can account for all of the aspects of a  near-death experience. It's a fascinating area.

and and and so I interview, as I said, John Burke,  who's an expert on them, uh to give examples of. this sort of thing. What about pre-death? Yes,  this is death visions. This is ah this is this is. new. C can I just add one editorial comment? Yeah,  I'm so filled with rage. I have to do it. That our. culture systematically excludes conversation, real  conversations about death. Obviously, we're very. pro death. You know, kill your baby, euthanize  your parents, whatever. We're all about death,

but the actual experience of death is kind of  cloaked from most people, and I I don't think. they have any idea what it is when someone dies,  the process of dying. And um so this is a welcome. conversation. Um, Tucker, it's fascinating these  uh deathbed visions. The difference between a. near-death experience and a deathbed vision is  in a near-death experience, a person's going to. come back, right? In a deathbed vision, this is a  vision someone has just before they die. They're. not coming back. I mean, they're permanently  going to die. But we see a biblical example.

of this in the book of Acts. We see Steven, who  is described as being full of the Holy Spirit, who is on the verge of being stoned to death. and  he looks up and he sees the heavens open up and he. sees the father and the son together. So this is  has a biblical precedent. But what is fascinating. and I think what you said is so true. People  don't like to talk about it because at all at all. because you if you have one of these experiences  before you die, you think they're going to think. I'm I've got dementia. They're going to think I'm  nuts. They're going to they're going to think,

you know, so a lot of people don't like to talk  about it. So there's a researcher. He went to. a huge hospice facility in New York State and  they went to all the dying people and they said, "Please, as a favor, if you have a vision, a dream  unlike any you've ever had, um, tell us. Would. you tell us?" And so, 88% [Music] of those dying  people had a pre-death vision that they reported.

on before they died. 88%. I think the other 12%  probably had one but they died before they were. able to say anything or they were so high on  morphine they couldn't talk. That's true. They. get people get drugged up. That's true. So there's  that. I mean obviously you you don't want people. to suffer. You want to alleviate suffering and  alleviate pain. I'm totally for that. I'm you know. want to be clear about it. But there's also this  custom which has grown to ubiquity now. It's just. it's everybody who dies gets um from the hospice  nurses. Yeah. They kill you with morphine. I mean,

no one wants to say that out loud, but I've seen  it. They they kill you with morphine. And um okay, first we should just be honest about  what's happening always. But second, we should be clear about the cost. So if people if  yes, everybody on the way out is getting visions. of some kind. Maybe there's a purpose to those  visions. Maybe we shouldn't short circuit that. And talk about there's also corroboration for  these. Uh, so in other words, they did one study.

of 3,000 of these and they determined this is not  just something coming from the subconscious mind. There is something else here. And I'll give you  the example of the corroboration. There was a a. woman named Doris. Um, she's dying on her deathbed  and she has a pre-death vision and she sees the. heavens open up and she sees angelic beings and  she sees her father who had died several years. earlier and he's kind of almost welcoming her to  the next realm. But then she gets this confused.

look on her face and she says, "Wait a minute.  Why is Vita with my father? What what why would. why would Vita be there? Makes no sense. What why  would Vita be there and then she died?" Vita was. her sister. Her sister had died two weeks earlier.  But no one had told Doris because she was so ill. They didn't want the news to kill her. So they  withheld the news that her sister Vita had died. And yet on her deathbed, she sees Vita in the  world to come. That is fairly common. It actually.

happened with my father-in-law. So that to me is  a corroboration. Another form of corroboration, get this. In the Bible, in Luke 16, um there's a  story of a a rich man and a beggar who both die. Yes. And the rich man goes to a place of torment.  Yeah. And the beggar goes to a place of bliss. The rich man, by the way, has walked past the poor  man every day. That's right. And ignored him. And. ignored him. So, um the um the beggar according  to Jesus in verse 22 is accompanied by angels to.

heaven. That angels accompany him to heaven. And  what's particularly fascinating is people who have. pre-death visions often see angels coming for  them just as Jesus suggested in that parable. So for instance um the most famous um skeptic in  Canada, Charles Templeton. Charles Templeton was. the pulpit partner of Billy Graham. He was going  to be the great evangelist. But then he went to.

a liberal seminary. He lost his faith. He wrote  an ugly book called Farewell to God, my reasons. for rejecting the Christian faith. And um I got  to know him. He became a friend. Um I actually. wrote a book called The Case for Faith where I  answered all his objections to Christianity. and. we became friends. Anyway, he ended up coming back  to faith in Christ before he died and then he's on. his deathbed and he calls out to his wife Meline.  Meline, what? What? Chuck, can you see them? What.

are you talking about? Can They're in the room.  You can't see them. They're right here in this. room. They're the angels. They're coming for me.  Oh, they're so beautiful. Look at them. They're. so The singing is so beautiful. They're coming for  me. I'm going to heaven. I'm going to be with God. Um that is incredibly common that people will  see angels coming for them in that vision they. had before they died. Now now here's another bit  of corroboration. Um children who are dying will. see angels but not like you would expect them to  be seen. In other words, let's say a 5-year-old.

who's dying. What is their image of an angel?  Well, it's it's a furry thing with feathery thing. with big wings, right? It's a cartoon, right? It's  a cartoon. They all have big wings. And so there's. a case from a doctoral dissertation I read of a  little girl who was dying and she says, "Mommy, mommy, c can you see the angels? They're they're  coming for me. Oh, they're so beautiful. They're. so beautiful. Their eyes. Look at their eyes."  And the mother didn't want to disappoint her,

so she said, "Oh, yeah. Yeah, I see them. Look at  their big wings." And the little girl said, "Oh, mommy, they don't have wings." and she was able to  describe them in vivid detail before she died. Um, wow. You would think if a child of that age was  going to have just a vision from their imagination. of angels coming for them, they would have big  wings. They don't in the Hallmark version. Yeah, that's right. And in in case after case,  they don't see the big wings. And by the way,

the Bible doesn't say that all angels have wings.  So, um, that to me is another very interesting. dynamic of these pre-death visions. Not all  people on their deathbed have joyful visions or. reunited with loved ones in the next world. Yes.  There are many people uh who are in terror. Yes. And uh horrified. And can you describe that and  what is it? Yes. Um, we have this in near-death. experiences and in deathbed visions where  people who are about to die have a a glimpse,

I believe, of a hellish experience to come and  they are frightened beyond belief and and scared. beyond words. Um, I'll give you an example of a  near-death vision where this happened. Uh, there's. a man named Howard Storm. Howard was an atheist.  He was a professor of art at a secular university, chairman of the art department and he was visiting  France and he died of a heart attack. So here he.

is. He's in a French hospital. He's dead. But he  said later, I was conscious the whole time. It was. a near-death experience. His spirit had separated  from his body. And there were some people in the. hallway say, "Howard, we've been waiting for you.  Come with us. Come with us." So he does. And he's. he's walking down the hallway. His spirit is  walking down the hallway with these people. And it goes on and on and on and it gets darker  and darker and then they're becoming abusive and. they're saying come on come on why are you so  slow and and then they start to attack him and. he said he said they um he said no horror movie  can ever capture the the horror of what they did.

to me. I mean he was absolutely mauled. He said I  was roadkill and he said I called out to God like. physically mauled. Yes. eyes gouged out, ears  ripped off just hor and he calls out to Jesus. and Jesus rescue me and this white orb comes and  brings him and rescues him from that and he is.

restored. Well, ultimately his body is revived.  His spirit returns to his body. This is such a. profound experience that he not only renounced  his atheism, he not only quit his tenur position. as chairman of the art department at a secular  university. He not only became a Christian, he went to seminary, he became a pastor and today  he's a pastor of this little church. I think it's. in Kentucky or Oklahoma somewhere in the middle of  nowhere. Uh serving God. That's how transformative.

this experience was. Amazing. But there are  multiple cases of people having horrific. In fact, one study of near-death experiences said it was  24% um had negative uh experiences, not positive. Doesn't feel like a good sign. No. No. I mean,  what it does to me is it's affirmation that you. know what what the Bible tells us is true. There  is a heaven, there is a hell. And every society. ever has thought that. Every society. Um and I  think everyone intuitively knows that. Yeah. I've.

never had a near-death experience, but the one  time I thought I was going to die many years ago. was in a plane crash. I I was filled with sadness.  I I had no peace at all. Yeah. Yeah. None. Only. regret. Yeah. Um so I I did take that as a as a  an indication I should change the way I was living. and I did. Well, God used that in your life.  Well, I felt that I felt that way and certainly. in retrospect I think that. Yeah. But I remember  thinking, "Wow, I'm going to die." I was certain.

of it and and I thought later I thought that  when people knew they were going to die they were. filled with like peace and warmth and walk toward  the light. That was not my experience at all. It. was like man I can't believe I did a few things.  Um Oh, and I really felt sad about it. So uh Well, that's the reality. Well, but I guess it's Yeah.  Well, it was the reality that I experienced for. sure. But I also think that it's what a blessing  Yes. to have an opportunity to um you know to to.

to turn back and change. That's the thing about  these near-death experiences that um you have. another chance. Um you don't have it in deathbed  vision, but you're going to be revived and then. you have a choice to make. Is that the road I  continue to want to go down? The first thing I. did was quit drinking and then had a fourth child.  Wow. It's awesome. Yeah, it was it was awesome. It. was awesome. It was literally awesome. So, um  yes. So I I think that there's something real. there and it does seem like a crime of some kind  to deprive people of that. Yeah. With drugs. I.

know if everyone experiences it just like anything  else like maybe there's a reason. Yeah. It's not. random. Maybe you know I'd encourage people who  are watching or listening to this podcast. Um, next time you have a big family get together with  the cousins and the uncles and the aunts and other. things, ask people, do we have any family stories  about deathbed visions or near-death experiences? I bet you you'll find, oh, Uncle Bob had that  experience or cousin Jim had that experience.

It I was having dinner with uh seven people in  Oklahoma City and four of them, we talked about. this, four of them had relatives who had pre-death  visions. Um, I I'm not surprised. It's incredibly. common. I' I've never asked that question at a  dinner party, but I have asked, "Has anyone seen. a ghost?" Yeah. 100% of the time. There's someone  at the table who has. 100%. Yeah. What is that? Ghost. I have a chapter on ghosts and psychics  in our book. Um, uh, the technical definition.

of a ghost is someone who dies but refuses to go  into the afterlife. Their their spirit refuses. to go into the next life. I don't see that in the  Bible. Um, so I don't think that ghosts per se are. from God. Um, I think most likely an apparition  that we interpret as being ghost is most like. a demonic apparition. Um, I think people feel  that. I I think so. They feel ghosts have a bad.

rep. Yes. Yeah. They No one No one is summoning  ghosts. It's not like Casper who's going to bring. you some flowers, you know. Generally, people are  anti- ghost. Um, ghost stories. Yes. Yeah. Yes. ghosted. Yeah, it's not not a good connotation.  So, I don't think that surprises anyone. So, I I do talk about ghosts and and uh and I talk  about psychics and the tricks that they use to. convince people that they're psychic. Sorry.  Are you prosychic? I'm anti-sychic. Yeah, I am too. Why are you anti-sychic? Um because the  Bible says do not consult mediums. Do not consult.

psychics. I mean, it's very clear multiple places  in scripture. Do not do it. Um, and oh, it well. among the ancient Hebrews that was a death penalty  offense. Exactly. It was. And so you just it's not. something we wanted to mess with. And I think  there's got to be a reason for that. I think it. because it opens the door to the demonic. Um, that  you're trying to consult the dead. You're trying. to you're trying to find out something apart  from what God might reveal through a psychic,

through a medium who supposedly has a cultic uh um  um wherewithal and is able to take you down that. pathway. It's dangerous. Um, and um, I talk in  the book about the tricks that they use to there's. things like cold readings and warm readings and  hot readings where people who want to fool you. into thinking they know more about you than they  do will employ that and they think, "Oh my gosh, this person knows all about me." No, they don't.  They're just very clever people who are able to. read certain things about you. No, I mean there  of course there's a lot of BS gypsy tricks.

But I'll tell you one case, but it's also true  in the in the Bible that um at least in my read. of it that um they're taken seriously. Well, there  are cases that's why it's a death penalty offense. Not because not cuz it's fake, cuz it's real.  Because it can be real. And yeah, that's a good. way to argue it. There is a case in contemporary  times when President Carter uh was president and. a um two engine aircraft went down and crashed  in Africa and the United States government was.

trying to find it. I don't know why but they  they wanted to find that aircraft and they had. satellites repositioned looking for it. They could  not find the wreckage of this airplane and so. um the Stansfield Turner who was the head of the  CIA uh consulted a medium a psychic in California. She went into a trance and she gave the longitude  and and latitude of where to find the plane. They. went, they reoriented the satellites and boom,  there was a wreckage of the plane just as she had.

said. What do you do with that? That tells me she  was in connection with something there. Now, if. the Bible says don't be connecting with psychics,  don't it was probably demonic. And why would she. do that? Because now she's got credibility.  Now the next time they want to know something, let's go to that woman in California told us where  that plane was. She seems to have these abilities. to know the future, to know things that we don't  know. And now she has credibility. I think that.

was a way for Satan to give her credibility so  that we'd be fooled into thinking into the future. to take advantage of her psychology. Yeah. Best  not to play with that stuff. No. No. It's best to. stay away from that. So contacting dead relatives  through a medium, Ouija boards, all that stuff. Scary, bad. Yeah. On the other hand, um I mean  that's my position. I'm sure it's yours. Yeah, I came to that position through experience, not  just guessing. It's bad. However, I know a lot. of decent, god-fearing people who have said,  "Well, I I really feel like I was contacted by.

a dead relative, a dead loved one." Yeah, that's  an interesting and I have a couple cases I talk. about in the book of that um that seemingly are  corroborated. Um um what do you do with that? because um why how is that inconsistent with your  theology? On the one hand, there are a couple of. cases in scripture where the dead have come back  like that. Um Elijah came back, the the um um uh.

transfiguration. Yeah. Um so there's an example  of a dead person coming back. There's the other. example of um in the Old Testament of a uh going  to a medium and a dead person coming back. Not. because of the power of the medium because she was  surprised it happened but through the power of God. he allowed that dead person to come back. So there  are a couple of perhaps precedents in scripture. of dead people coming back. Um the re one of the  reasons I'm skeptical is because when Jesus was.

talking about in Luke 16 about the uh rich man who  died and the beggar who died uh he talked about. a gulf between the living and the dead. Um that  concerns me. Um uh so that raises some questions. in my mind. I think the transfiguration and the  incident with what's called the medium of Endor. in the Old Testament may be oneoffs and those are  unusual circumstances. So, I'm Tucker. I don't I'm. not quite sure what to do with it because I talk  about a couple of cases in the book where a dead.

relative returns um and a person talks to that  relative and then they disappear and then their. their child comes in, eight-year-old child, and  says, "I just saw grandpa. I just talked to him.". So, he experienced the same vision. Well, that's  pretty weird. Yeah. Um is that corroboration and. so forth? Well, here's my concern. So many times  the people have contact with these dead people,

these are people that lived ungodly lives. And  yet they say, "Everything's fine. I'm fine. Everything's good. Just take care of the family.  Tell everybody I love them. I'm good. Don't worry. about me." That's the general message people  get. Well, what does that say to someone who is. thinking about what do I need to do to live a life  that will bring me to heaven and to God? Well, Uncle Tom came and told me he's fine. He didn't  He was a He was a adulterer and a He never came to.

faith in Jesus. He's a, you know, bad guy. And yet  he says he's fine in the afterlife. Wouldn't that. be something that a demon might want to imitate  uh to send a false message? I I think maybe. So, I guess I'm giving you two answers. One is there  is some biblical precedent for a dead coming back, but I think they may be one-offs. I'm not sure.  Um, I think there'd be a good motive for Satan to. counterfeit that. Um, you know, it says Satan  can appear as a um as an angel of light, as a.

counterfeit. Uh, he can fool us into thinking he's  something he's not. Would that be to his advantage. to do to mislead people? I think it could be.  So, I'm not quite sure where I'm at. Are UFOs, what we call UFOs, spiritual entities? I  don't know. No, I didn't get into UFOs in. the book. It's a fascinating topic. Maybe I'll do  another book on that. But um so I didn't research. it thoroughly. Having said that though, it would  not be an affront to my faith if indeed we found.

intelligent life elsewhere in the universe. The  Bible doesn't say that we are unique in that we. No, it it doesn't. But but I wonder um could they  be spiritual is a question. Yeah. Yeah. Could be. It could be. Yes. Is it? I don't know. I I'm just  not as knowledgeable on that to be able to give a. strong opinion. Uh, last question. Miracles.  Yeah. Um, what is a miracle? A miracle is an.

event brought about by the power of God that is  a temporary exception to the ordinary course of. nature for the purpose of showing that God has  acted in history. So, in other words, a lot. of people skeptics nice definition. That's from  Robert Patill who was a philosopher. He he he uh. I thought that was the best definition I'd heard.  Here's the problem. A lot of skeptics will say, "I don't believe in miracles because you can't  violate the laws of nature." So, by definition,

a miracle is impossible. We haven't even settled  on the laws of nature. They're so dumb. Well, here's how I answer. You don't even like the laws  of nature. Really? Science every day challenges. the laws of nature and especially with quantum  physics and everything. Exactly. But I say, "Look, I have this glass of water here. If I were  to drop it, the law of gravity would say it would. hit the floor. Yeah. But if I drop it and you  reached in and grabbed it before it hit the floor, you're not violating the law of gravity. You're  not overturning the law of gravity. You're just.

intervening. And that's what a miracle is. Is  God intervening temporarily into his creation. He. brought it about so of course he could intervene.  And um man uh but again our understanding of. nature and and its laws changes every day and it's  so shallow. It's so shallow what we know. Yeah. But I mean our I mean our view of what is natural  is different now from what it was 5 years ago. Yeah. And what it'll be 5 years from now. Exactly.  So that's just the silliness and the shallowess.

of claims like that kind of shock me. It does. So  miracles um but you know to the extent we can know. like this is so unusual like this couldn't have  happened accidentally. Can I give you an example? Yeah please do. And this is one I personally  investigated and has been um widely documented. A woman named Barbara um she was diagnosed at  the Mayo Clinic. So we got all those records. with multiple sclerosis as a teenager and it was  progressive. She start she got worse very quickly.

Yeah. So she just got worse and worse and worse.  multiple hospitalizations to the point where the. doctor said, "Look," and her parents said, "Look,  next time she gets pneumonia, which she would get. on a regular basis, we're just going to let her  die because we're just postponing the inevitable.". So, here she is on her deathbed. She hadn't walked  in seven years, so her muscles had atrophied. Her. fingers were she was curled up like a pretzel. Her  fingers were touching her wrists. Um her feet were.

permanently extended. Uh her diaphragm was um  one diaphragm was um paralyzed. So her one lung. was collapsed, the other lung was at half full.  She had a tube in her throat that went to oxygen. canisters in the garage. She was in hospice at  home so she could breathe. So she got a tube in. her throat. She um had lost uh her urination  and bowels and control of those. She lost her. eyesight, so all she saw was gray shapes. Um and  and she's on her deathbed. She's dying. Well,

some people said, "Wait a minute. Um, let's call  WMBBI, the Christian radio station at the Moody. Bible Institute in Chicago, and ask people on  the radio show to pray for poor Barbara. She's. dying." So, they did. Well, we documented that at  least 450 people began praying for Barbara because. they wrote letters to Barbara saying, "I'm praying  for you and to encourage her." So, here we are in. Pentecost Sunday, 1981. She is in her bedroom and  her aunt and two girlfriends are reading her some.

of these encouraging letters from people praying  for her. And from the corner of the room where. nobody was, she heard the voice of God. And the  voice said, "My child, get up and walk." Well, she. hadn't walked in seven years. She had no muscle  tone in her legs. She She pulled out the tube so. she could talk. And she said, "I don't know what  you're going to think of this, but God just told. me to get up and walk. Go find my parents. I  want them to be here. So, they ran out, but she. couldn't wait. She jumped out of bed. She told me,  she said, "Lee, the first thing I noticed, my feet.

were flat in the floor, and they hadn't been flat  for years. They've been rigidly extended, but they. were flat in the floor. Second thing I noticed, my  hands had opened up like flowers, and they hadn't. opened up in years." And then she said, "The third  thing I noticed, I could see." I said, she said, "Wouldn't you think that'd be the first thing  I noticed?" That was actually the third thing I. noticed. She was instantaneously completely healed  of multiple sclerosis. Her mother came running in,

fell to her knees and grabbed her calves and  said, "Your muscle tone has come back." It was. Pentecost Sunday. There was a service at their  church, Wheaten Wesleyan Church. They went, they decided to go and thank God that she was  fine. She's dancing, literally dancing around. the house with her father. So they go to church.  They're in the back. The pastor gets up and says, "Does anybody have any announcements?" Barbara  comes walking down. That's a good announcement.

Barbara comes walking down the center aisle.  People freaked out cuz they haven't seen her. except in a wheelchair for seven years. They began  singing spontaneously. Amazing Grace. I once was. blind and now I see. Totally healed. She goes the  next day to her doctor, one of her doctors. He. said later, he said, "I saw her walking down the  hallway toward my office. My first thought was, oh, she died." and that's a ghost. He said,  "This is medically impossible." And it is. medically impossible. She was instantaneously,  totally healed of multiple scosis. She ended up.

marrying a pastor that little Wesleyan church  in Fredericksburg, Virginia. And I got to know. her. Sweetest woman. Um, is she still alive? She  just recently, they, this happened 1981, lived. perfectly healthy all these years. She just died  in Florida. They just retired um just a few months. ago. Uh, socredible completely healed. And so  the Okay, that's a what do you do with that? What. do you do with that? Well, that's a challenge to  like the most basic understanding of everything.

Yes. Right. Yep. So, um, if she's on her deathbed  from MS, which is a wellstudied Yes. disease, um, you know, like you would think that, you know,  Harvard Medical School would just like see cease. operations until they figured out what that was. I  know you know why I mentioned to my doctor I said. I told him the story he said it'd be interesting  to know because there's plaque that that develops. in the brain and multiple scerosis. It'd be  interesting to know did that plaque disappear?

And I said which is the greater miracle that the  plaque would disappear or that God would totally. heal her with the plaque still there. I I don't  know which a greater was her I guess my question. is was her how could we in a in a advanced  country allow a case like that to go unnoticed. and unstudied I know it was the next day it was in  the Chicago Tribune um which most newspapers don't. cover stuff like that I mean it's too speculative  but did she get yeah but that's not speculative.

I mean so she had a team of physicians saying  it's time for her to go and then she's dancing. and singing Amazing Grace and hearing a pastor so  like but what were doctors calling in to say, I. want to study this case. There are two doctors who  wrote books about it. Wrote books about it. Well, they they wrote books and in the books they talked  about her case. Yes. So, two of her physicians. actually wrote about it in their books. That's  incredible. I know. I know. And and it's not the. only one. I don't we don't have much time. Give  you a real quick one. Yeah. There's a kid who was. born little baby kept vomiting. Couldn't keep down  food. Kept vomiting. Vomiting. and they realize.

this baby has what's called gastroparesis, which  is a paralysis of the stomach. It's an incurable. condition. It happens from time to time. You  can't you can't live that way. No. Um so they. operated and they put tubes in so that the food  would go directly um into the small intestine. Um. I don't know if it went through the stomach that  was paralyzed or whatever, but that way it's able. he was able to live and he lived that way until  for 15 years. 16 years he lived that way. There.

were restrictions on what he could eat. It was  uncomfortable, but at least he was alive, right? They bring him one day to a church. And they asked  the pastor, "Would you pray for him?" Pastor puts. his hand on his shoulder, begins to pray, and  the kid said later, "I felt an electric shock. go through me at the time he was praying, and  he was instantly healed of gastroparesis." There. has never been a documented case of anyone ever  healed of gastroparesis. a paralyzed stomach. Um,

he was totally normal. They went in, they took  the tubes out, and today he's totally healthy. He's a business guy, doing great. I just emailed  with him the other day. Um, that again, this was. researched by multiple medical researchers  and published as a case study in a medical. journal. Um, and in the medical journal, it's  probably like, here's what happened, you know. So, uh, that's an incredible story. The girl being  cured of MS is an incredible story. Everything.

you've said is amazing. But so many of the  things you said are also instantly recognizable. to everyone listening, whatever their religious  faith or lack of religious faith as things that. do happen. Actually, it's real. We all know that  there are things that happen to us and people we. know well and love that are outside the ability of  science to explain that are supernatural. Yeah. So.

my final question to you Lee Stroel and this  has been amazing. Thank you. Oh my pleasure. Is why do we keep ignoring it? Yeah. I think  it goes back to what I said earlier. I think. we're embarrassed sometimes by the supernatural  that we're going to think people going to think. we're nuts. But if that's real, and it clearly  is real, then like it puts everything else into. perspective. Yeah. When you take it seriously and  when you look at it like not take it seriously,

if you grow up in a culture that tells you none  of it's real and yet it's super obvious that it is. super obvious that it's real in some general sense  like the supernatural is real. Yeah. Sorry. Yeah. Then why don't people talk about it all the time?  Yeah. Yeah. I think the fact that I've been a. Christian since November the 8th of 1981 and I've  never heard a sermon on the topic of angels in my. life tells you something. I think I I I think we  we shy away because we we we want to be accepted.

as normal. Um I I I I get out of bed on Sunday to  sit in a church where they're like pretending that. nothing they say is true. It's a it's it's a good  point. If we believe if if it's not supernatural, like why are you bothering? Exactly. If you  believe in Jesus, you got to believe in angels. You got to believe in demons. You got to believe  in Satan. You got to believe in heaven. You got to. believe in hell. Because if you believe in Jesus,  he taught on all those things. So, my goodness,

how could you not? I agree with you. How could  you not? Yeah. I mean, go on, move on to something. else. Go play tennis or something. And if if 40%  of Americans have had an experience that they can. only attribute to a miracle of God, that means  the other 60% probably know one of those 40%, right? And oh, my brother had this experience.  My cousin had and we kind of say, what do we. do with that? And and I think what we ought to  do is look for that which is is um corroborated. and which is consistent with what we trust to be  true, which for me are the Christian scriptures.

If you just fight against distraction, yeah,  consistently for just a day or two, like I'm not. going to be distracted. I'm just going to notice.  That's it. That's all you do is just notice. I'm. just going to notice stuff. Yeah. If you do  that as an exercise, literally for 48 hours, you will experience the supernatural. I think  you're right. It's hard to do that. Yeah. Lee. Trouble, thank you. Hey, I enjoyed it. Wonderful.  Great to Great to meet you. Thank you. [Music].

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