Leaked Police Interrogation Footage of Netanyahu, and How He Cowers Behind War to Keep Power

Alex Gibney, thank you very much for doing  this. So for all the years that Benjamin. Netanyahu has been in the American media,  I think there's very little sense in the. US about his domestic troubles in Israel.  We keep hearing he's been charged and the. president of the United States keeps saying  he needs to be pardoned. uh you've made this. documentary that explains what is at the core of  this controversy, like what are the charges? What.

is he accused of doing? Did he do it? So,  I'm going to stand back and just let you, if you would, outline what Benjamin Netanyahu has  been accused of doing. Well, it roughly speaking, you'd you'd say it was bribery or you'd say it  was corruption. I mean, and and I can detail the. charges. Um, this is a film that I produced and  it was directed by Alexis Bloom. And back in 2023, um, I I got a strange message on Signal from  somebody who said that they had all of the.

police interrogation videos from the Benjamin  Netanyahu investigation. And they had been. investigating Netanyahu since 2016 for charges  of corruption. that is to say, trading on his. position as prime minister to get money in um  all sorts of uh favors, jewelry for his wife, very expensive Cuban cigars, hundreds of millions  of dollars in um forgiveness of certain loans.

uh in order to be able to get favorable coverage  on a uh on a news website called Walla. So, it was a it was a pretty interesting case  and it went from the very small, meaning, you know, very expensive Cuban cigars from a a  rather famous movie producer named Arnon Milchan. to something very big, which is effectively  a a $250 million u financial arrangement in.

exchange for coverage uh good coverage for  Netanyahu. So, so it was a pretty big deal. What did the t So you got the tapes where? Let me  just ask to the extent you can say where did they. come from? I can't say where they came from. Um  I I I can't say anything about the source, but uh. what I can say is we got over a thousand hours of  tapes and the these were interviews with Netanyahu. himself by the police, also Netanyahu's wife Sara,  his son Yair, also with a number of key people.

close to Netanyahu. example um near heets his  former head of communications. Sheldon Adlesen who. we know in this country as a as a billionaire now  deceased, his wife Miriam Adles, Arnon Milchon, a famous Israeli businessman, arms dealer who also  became a very famous um motion picture producer. So it was a a kind of an extraordinary array  of evidence and and while some of this evidence.

had been published in Israel in written form, uh  nobody had seen the tapes and the tapes are very. revealing particularly for Netanyahu because  Netanyahu tries to cultivate this this image. of the grand vizier, the the the great statesman  of Israel. Here you see a rather petty, corrupt. man desperately lying to save his skin and and his  wife who is a deeply uh entitled woman, you know,

trying to claim that so what if we got stuff. I  mean, we deserve it because we're doing so much. for for the nation and for the world. And his son  Yaier, who is also extremely entitled, screaming. at the police, yelling, you know, you're like the  the Stacey. So, it it was an illuminating look at. the actual character behind the facade. Sort  of like that moment in the Wizard of Oz where, you know, Toto pulls back the curtain and and and  the wizard says, "Please pay no attention." It was. really revealing. If you can, and I think  people watching this will watch the film,

but I'm interested in your take having watched  a thousand hours of this. What is it? Can you. go more deeply into what do you think it reveals  about the prime minister and his character? Well, I think it reveals I think a kind of deepseated  corruption, a willingness to do almost anything to. save his skin. I think that um he became possessed  after the election in 2015 of a sense of enormous.

arrogance that he was now the man um uh because uh  he came back from what seemed to be a defeat to an. enormous victory and now he he had this sense of  entitlement. Uh interestingly then he began to um. uh you know cash in on that entitlement and he was  caught. Um but what happened then was that rather. you know as he heard the sound of the possibility  of the jail door slamming shut on him, he began to.

start to do things that uh really took uh Israel  in a very dark direction. The first thing he tried. to do was to um essentially um fix the Department  of Justice. He tried he tried to engage in a. series of um this is before October 7th. He tried  to engage in a series of reforms of the judicial. system which would weaken the power of of of  the judiciary in um uh in Israel most likely.

because that would undermine the case against  him. That's the most direct likely outcome. But the other thing was that by this time he had  formed a government with an extremely right-wing. coalition with a guy named um Beng who is head of  national security and a guy named Smotrich who's. a is a head of the um finance. They are extremely  right-wing, extremely anti-Palestinian, and their.

designs were to expand illegal settlements in the  West Bank. And in some cases, well, well, well, it was already a dire situation for Palestinians  on the West Bank. Nevertheless, there would be. judicial orders which would sometimes get in the  way of that. That was another aspect of this. Well, when Netanyahu tried to uh fix the  judiciary, the country rose up and it was in a. in a huge um uproar over o o over these changes  which were fundamentally undermining Israel's.

democracy. Not too long after um of course there  was the terrible um attack by Hamas on October 7th. um which shocked Israel. Um what people began to  learn was that for years Netanyahu again I think. um as part of the way he sees the world and  as part of a kind of more generalized sense.

of corruption had been trying to modulate the  relationship with Hamas and indeed had been. allowing millions and millions of dollars to  flow to Hamas from Qatar um sometimes in bags. of cash traveling through Israel. And the reason  he was doing that was to undermine the Palestinian. authority on the West Bank in order to be able to  allow for his right-wing coalition to get more and. more territory via settlements. So all sorts  of strange corrupt deals were happening. But.

then I think that post um 107 which was a terrible  moment. I don't want to minimize it in every in in. any way. It was a horrific attack. Um and we show  some of that attack in the film. But um he then. launched an attack on Gaza which was so um beyond  any sense of proportionality. Now we have at least. over 75,000 people dead. Of course, now we have an  Iran war, an Lebanon war, and so forth and so on.

One of the goals uh I'm convinced and not me  but all of the witnesses who are you know very. reputable members of the security establishment in  Israel in the film indicate that part of the the. the enduring uh ferocity savagery of the war was  due to becoming a wartime president who could then. not be prosecuted or successfully y prosecuted uh  for the crimes he had committed. The the trial the.

in not only the investigation, but now there's  been a trial. The trial is still ongoing. This. is 10 years after the investigation started. So,  so long as he's the commanderin-chief and he's. waging war, how dare you attack the president?  So, so in a way this kind of venal personal. corruption that starts with cigars and and pink  champagne for which they had code names, you know,

and then evolves into um corrupt deals relating  to the media becomes a mechanism by which slowly. but surely the corruption got greater and greater  and greater until it became a moral corruption in. which the world is now engulfed. We've got a new  partner. It's a company called Cowboy Colostrum. It's a brand that is serious about actual health.  And the product is designed to work with your. body, not against your body. It is a pure and  simple product, all natural. Unlike other brands,

Cowboy Colostrum is never diluted. It always comes  directly from American grass-fed cows. There's no. filler, there's no junk. It's all good. It tastes  good, believe it or not. So before you reach for. more pills for every problem that pills can't  solve, we recommend you give this product, Cowboy. Colostrum, a try. It's got everything your body  needs to heal and thrive. It's like the original. superfood loaded with nutrients, antibodies,  proteins, help build a strong immune system,

stronger hair, skin, and nails. I threw my wig  away and right back to my natural hair after using. this product. You just take a scoop of it every  morning in your beverage, coffee or a smoothie. and you will feel the difference every time. For  a limited time, people listen to our show get 25%. off the entire order. So go to cowboyclustrom.com.  Use the code Tucker at checkout. 25% off when. you use that code Tucker at cowboycluster.com.  Remember you mentioned you heard it here first. There there were there were people in Israel in  public right after October 7th which clearly was.

committed by Hamas and was clearly terrible. I  agree with that. Want to be clear. But there were. a bunch of people including people I knew who said  wait a second you know this couldn't have happened. if the government of Israel had really tried  to prevent it. Okay. So there's something very. strange about the ability of Hamas fighters on  motorbikes and gliders and on foot coming across.

the most heavily guarded border in the world and  the delay in the response of the IDF to this. Like. what is this? And it's almost forbidden to say  that as you know in the United States, but tell. me what people you spoke to in Israel now believe  about that attack. I should point out that when. when you say I spoke to, I mean the the person  who directed the film was Alexis Bloom. I got. the footage. Alexis, of course, I'm asking you to  speak for the film. Sure. Sure. Sure. No problem. In any event, I think there were a lot of people  who felt that a proper investigation into what.

Netanyahu knew um about the possible impending  attack by Hamas should be commenced. However, that got rolled under the carpet because of the  fact that he's now in a war with Hamas. I mean, Hamas doesn't really have an air force, so you  can't properly call it a war. But but I think. there was a lot of talk about um how much and uh  and and and what advanced warning Netanyahu may.

have had about the October 7th attacks. I I've  never seen, you know, primaasy evidence of that. fact, but there's certainly a lot of talk about it  in Israel. Okay, so it's not just crazy people on. the internet who think it's possible or likely  that Benjamin Netanyahu knew this was coming, had some sense it was coming, didn't do his best  to prevent the damage within Israel because he was. in this politically tough spot and the ensuing  war would take the attention off him and allow.

him a pass on the charges. Is that a fairation?  I personally think it may be a bit too cynical. to think that that that he literally engendered an  attack in order to be able to to to counterattack. But I do think that he had deluded himself in  part because he he thought of the world as a. series of deals. He had deluded himself in into  the idea that he had manipulated Hamas and all. the money that was flowing to Hamas. Yeah. Um  you know wasn't going to go to weapons and and.

preparing an attack. I mean, he kept saying,  what was the phrase? It's in the film. Um, uh, that that he could control the height of the  flames by by the introduction of money or and he. also godfather when he's talking to the police,  he says, "Keep your friends close and your enemies. closer." As if he was the dawn and sort of able to  manipulate events, but he clearly was not able to. That seems like a smart interpretation to me. Of  course, I don't know, but that that sounds that.

sounds plausible, entirely plausible. So then  October 7th happens. I think most Israelis are. genuinely shocked that it happened and they're  horrified and a lot of the world is genuinely. shocked and horrified, including me. Uh but then  this war begins in Gaza or this leveling of Gaza, this mass murder in Gaza and then it expands um  to a lot of the regent and Levant and now into. Iran. Is it too cynical to think that one of the  motives there from the prime minister is to just.

keep moving forward uh because if he stops he  gets arrested? Well, it may be a little bit too. cynical. Uh I mean I mean Netanyahu has wanted to  attack Iran for years. In fact, they did another. film about that subject called Zero Days. Um so  but but I do think that once the momentum of war. began and and and I would say also that to some  extent the momentum of war began to have a certain.

popular impact um among the populace in Israel  too that now there was an opportunity to go after. um more enemies. So and it had the byproduct  of course of as long as there's war as long. as it's permanent or Netanyahu will never be  held to account. So once again, I think it may. be a bit too cynical to say he attacked Iran so  he wouldn't go to jail, but I think it had been. a long-standing desire for Netanyahu to want to  really go after Iran. Uh, and now both once he had.

started the war in Gaza, but also I think with the  Trump administration coming to power in um 2024, suddenly he had an opportunity. Yeah, that that  sounds right to me. So what how is he regarded the. prime minister in Israel? It's it's hard to know  if you're not there. What's your view? I agree.

Uh I think it's fair to say that there is a robust  group of people who are vehemently anti-Netanyahu. and believe he's destroying Israel and destroying  democracy in Israel uh and indeed making the. country a pariah worldwide. I I would agree with  that point of view. However, I would also say that. war has a peculiar um effect on people and can  engender a sense of nationalism which I believe.

is rising. Not only a sense of nationalism, but  that nationalism undergirded by the undertoe of. of of of victimhood. So, so Netanyahu is is is  very much using that. And I think it would be. a mistake to think that he's unpopular. We'll  find out very soon, you know, when elections. happen. But but I think that um uh as long as  you're waging war, people tend to rally around. the commander-in-chief, which I think is is both a  cynical ploy by Netanyahu and also a long-standing.

goal of his to be able to wage war across the  Levant and expand Israel's power and influence. Did you get a sense of his of his religious  views? I think of Netanyahu is well, honestly, he's pretty American and western and secular, but  in his I mean, the first statement he gave after. the war in Iran began, he began with today's Torah  portion, and he's been saying things like that a.

lot. Do do you have an opinion on what he thinks,  what his his spiritual views are? It's hard for. me to say. I mean I I I think that to some extent  I see him more as a politician. Now, I don't have. access to what his real views are, but when you  hear politicians um quoting scripture in effect,

um it tends to be for the reason that they're  trying to undergard their policies with the. force of God. Um, that's a it's an old script  and I think Netanyahu knows very well that. it's an effective one. That would be my my  gut. I really don't know or have any insight. into what he believes when he's alone in a room,  what his relationship is with God. Yeah. Well, we can't know, but it does seem like the country  is changing fast. Um, that's my perception as.

a visitor. It's not a good It's not a good  thing. and and you we can also see that that. that this hard right-wing faction has has wre  havoc on the um on the West Bank and you know. uh settlements are expanding a pace um in in  a really reprehensible way. there's lots of, you know, it's sort of out of the public eye,  but that I think was the one of the goals from. the beginning, you know, with his reckoning  with Hamas and all of this stuff, but also,

you know, because Netanyahu in order to stay  in power, another corrupt deal, he makes a. deal with the hard right and then goes very hard  right. It's not like he was ever a peace snick, but now he goes very very very hard right and  um at at the great expense of the lives and. livelihoods of many Palestinians. Yeah, I don't  know if it's right or not. I'm on the right and. I hate this. I hate violence and there there  were reports this morning of in the Israeli.

press of mass rapes of Palestinians by settlers  in the West Bank. So like I I think that's just. the degree of violence by the by by by by settlers  on Palestinians in the West Bank is is rapacious. I mean it's it's and it it it goes on day after  day after day after day. Ranchers built America. feeding our country for over 250 years through  droughts and wars and recessions and pandemics. and anything else that happened didn't matter to  them cuz they had to come through and they did.

That legacy is the one that our partners at Good  Ranchers continue and represent. Good Ranchers is. a meat company that's 100% committed to this  country. Not just in words, but in practice. Every cut they offer is raised on United States  farms and ranches. Their entire packaging and. fulfillment operations are right here in the US.  Same with customer support. Imagine Americans on. the other end of the line. Plus, Good Ranchers  donates a portion of all profits go to veteran. organizations. We use Good Ranchers ourselves.  We love it. The subscriber experience is super.

easy. Order requires just a few clicks. Simple,  flexible, and built around your schedule. So, you can support a company that sells an amazing  product that honors Americans past, present, and future. Visit goodranchers.com  today, and when you start your plan, you'll get to pick a free meat that'll be included  in every order for life, or you get 25 off your. first order by using the code Tucker. Tucker  is the code for 25 bucks off. Goodranchers.com. American meat delivered. So since you're  the producer of this film, do you mind if.

I ask you about your exper your experience?  So you you come into possession of a thous. You're not saying understandably exactly  how you got it, but it's real. I mean, probably a lot of people don't want you to  make that into a documentary and air it. So what was your experience of that? That's  fair to say. And indeed, uh, when you know, we we tried to produce the film in secret. Um, I  I had uh some able um helpers. I mean, not only.

was Alexis Bloom an extraordinary talented  woman directing it, but in Israel, you know, we were aided by a guy named Raviv Ducker um who  is a a noted journalist in in Israel and helped. us to contextualize some of this stuff, but we  had a sense that we had to keep it secret while. we were making it. And then we sort of launched  um an event um in at the Toronto Film Festival in. in 2024. We it was a work in progress because we  felt at that moment this kind of thing needed to.

be seen. Now Netanyahu himself went to court in  Israel to try to stop the um uh the premiere of. the film at Toronto. He was utterly unsuccessful.  But I should note also that the American media. played a kind of unsemly role in the sense that we  were u we we went to NBC first and we were going. to do a a rather big piece in advance of the um  uh the premiere in Toronto and then we were told.

at the last minute that oh NBC has decided that um  we're not going to do the story because it would. probably upset Netanyahu and that would limit our  access to the prime minister. They said that? Yes, they said that to me. That's correct. What? Not  not what I would regard as a deeply courageous. move by by a journalistic organization. Yeah.  I mean, I think journalistic is is u probably.

too strong. Um but wow, I'm just I mean, I've  worked at that company. I'm just surprised that. they were as blunt as they were to you. What did  you say? I I was just shocked. I mean I because I. was ready to um I was ready to do an interview.  I believe it was Andrea Mitchell. Um, you know, I I I was shocked and, you know, part of the  reckoning was it it was both both craven and. bad journalistically, but also sort of corrupt  in the sense that they they suggested that they.

might have gone with it if they themselves had  discovered um the the police interrogation videos, but they weren't going to um risk their capital  with Netanyahu for something that they themselves. didn't discover. the idea of the public good or  the public uh reckoning didn't didn't seem to be. part of the equation. It was a very disappointing  moment. Probably not that surprising. I mean,

in general, the coverage of what happens there is  well non-existent or not consistent with reality. in the United States. But did you pause at all  before embarking on this once you got the tapes? Did you think maybe it's not a good idea long term  for me to get involved in something like this? No, I I I felt it was really important because it  it the those tapes once I w was able to verify.

uh them and to to and to understand them better.  I I felt they shed a really important light on. on a vital figure in world politics and that's in  Yahoo. And so it seemed to me that that's that's. my job. And when I find out important information  about public figures that shed light on on on on. wars and and um and and how we reckon with the  world that that it's it's my job to to get that.

story out. So I actually didn't pause. But it took  a while to figure out because I'm not a network, you know, I'm an independent filmmaker and it  took a while to figure out how to raise the money, how to um and also to do it in secret so that  nobody would subpoena the tapes or, you know, um uh prevent me from from getting to the end.  So, you know, we we Alexis and I had to proceed.

um you know, for some time in in in secret, but  you know, it was uh I I I felt it was really. important material and really important to get  it out. Good for you. How hard was it to raise. the money? It was hard, but but not as it as  it turns out impossible. So, and there were. a number of people who also once they were able  to to see a little bit of of what we had um came. forward and um um and and uh and helped. So, so  yeah, we were able to do it. I mean, it was but.

it was it it was it was mining a different source.  It wasn't the traditional way where you go to your. bureau chief and you say, "Please give me the uh  resources of the corporation and let's go get this. story." We we definitely isn't. So, we've tried  from the beginning just to advertise businesses. that have like-minded values, businesses that  make things or provide services that we actually. use that seem like decent people that don't hate  us or you. And that's one of the reasons that we.

have aligned with Charity Mobile. So, when you  make the switch, Charity Mobile sends 5% of your. monthly plan price to the pro-life, pro-f family  charity of your choice. That's millions of dollars. and counting sent to pro- family philanthropies.  So, that sounds great, but Charity Mobile must be. really expensive to be doing that. Well, no,  they're not. They've literally never raised. their mobile planes, and no plan exceeds $50 a  month. So, it's a good company with good service,

and it's got good prices. If you switch today,  you keep your number with a compatible phone. No compromise on quality and you support a company  that's actually doing good things. Use promo code. Tucker to get a free phone with free activation,  free shipping, and a free gift with every new line. of service. Visit charitymobile.com/tucker. Do you  expect any consequences uh going forward? I mean, presumably you hope to make other films. Will this  make it harder? I don't know. Um I I I think that. um we live in a moment where people all over  the world, including in this country, are.

um making it difficult for independent voices  to be heard. So yeah, I I reckon with that, but. um I feel like even though and and I'm I'm glad  you you know TCN is showing BB Files on its uh on. its network and and it has had um you know pretty  good international distribution. The the the. distribution here has been somewhat handicapped.  But um can can you tell us about that? What I mean.

it seems like um even if I disagreed with your  views, which I I don't know that I do. I don't. think I do. But I I would just stop at you have  relevant information that's real about one of the. key players in global politics. So like that alone  justifies this in my opinion. And so the idea that. you would have distribution problems in the United  States is a little scary and I'd love to know more. about what those problems are. I think one of  the problems is that the market in general um is.

controversy averse. You know, you have a number of  streamers who don't want to upset their um their. viewers. You have news organizations which in  this case, as I as I've documented, you know, also. didn't want to be on um on the wrong side of an  issue that might upset people. I mean, it seems to. me that the job, you know, because I because I do  think that four years ago, um, roughly speaking,

you know, I if I had gone out into the marketplace  with the BB files, there would have been a bidding. war. But now it's kind of just the opposite.  It's like, we don't want to do anything that. might upset people because then they won't buy  sneakers or they won't buy iPads. Um, you know, so that's part of it. And I and I think part of it  is that um controversy has become problematic and. also powerful political figures um are exerting  influence on broadcasting outlets to tow the line.

and sometimes if you're not uh you know you don't  have a regular show you don't get a hearing. So. it's a problem. It's a really big problem. I think  the, you know, uh, while I'm, I'm I'm critical. of the mainstream press, particularly in this in  this instance, you know, I believe strongly in the. idea of a free press and and and I'm deeply upset  about the way not only Netanyahu did it in Israel,

but the way the Trump administration is trying  to suppress a free press in this country. So, it's it's a dark time for this. How long have you  been doing this kind of thing? Well, that's a good. question. Um, you know, I guess I've been doing  it I've been an independent, a freelance since. um, gez since the 1980s. So, somehow someway I've  been, you know, managing to scrape by. Um, I've.

and I've never really worked for an organization  except for the small company that is Jigsaw. Productions, which is my company. Have you ever  seen an environment this difficult for someone who. wants to present newsworthy inherently newsworthy  material like the tapes in this documentary? Not. really. The there was another period in the late  '9s um in this country. I remember trying to do a. film about it was critical of Henry Kissinger  and uh I had a ter I had an easy the BBC was.

was actually heroic in that instance but I could  find no finders here and it was only by going to. um I think we played at the film forum for  something like 3 months that finally it allowed. because it was then entertainment it allowed a  broadcaster to show it. It was difficult then but. it's much more fraught now. I think it's very very  very hard to get independent voices um heard. It's.

it's really unprecedented in my experience this  moment. Yeah. Well, thank you. That's certainly. my feeling, but I don't have the the 40-year  perspective that you do. So, um but I admire. your dedication to a free press, your bravery in  doing this and your willingness to explain it uh. to us and to air it on TCN. So, thank you  very much, Alex Gibney. Thank you, Chucker.