Journalist Exposes Netanyahu’s Funding of Hamas, the Murder of Palestinians, and Oct. 7th Foresight

How long have you lived in Israel? Been there for about 10 years. 10 years? So we're just talking off camera. and I'm first of all, thank you for. doing this. Pleasure, thanks for. having me. It's impossible to really understand. anything from the United States. because the filters. and the propaganda are just so. restrictive. But it seems obvious. that October 7th. is the beginning of a.

global reshuffling certainly of. the Middle East. We haven't spent enough time. thinking through what that was. What was that? I think to properly understand. October the 7th, you have to. put together kind of a timeline. I think what's been lacking here, you know, I talk to a lot of. Palestinians and they tell me a lot. about how they. portray the war as something that. sort of began after October the 7, which is another problem we can get. to at some point. The Israelis chalk it up to,

you now, the act of a rabid. anti-Semite. I have no doubt that he was quite. possibly an anti-semite. He, you're speaking of, the leader. of Hamas. who's now dead. Um, but it. doesn't mean that there wasn't a. logic. It doesn't means that. this happened when it happened and. how it happens. So just to be clear about what. you're saying, so from the. Palestinian perspective, everything. we're seeing now is. a result of the events after. October 7th and from the Israeli. perspective October 7 happened just.

because they're hated unreasonably. Well, I guess what I often find is. when I speak to Palestinians and. they're not wrong to say that the. backdrop of all this is that there's. been an occupation for a very long. time. We've been occupied since 48, which I understand, but it still. doesn't explain the specifics. of October the 7th. Right. It explains why at some point. something like that could or quite. possibly should have happened. And so that's been. something I've focused on a lot and. I think if you want to put together. a proper answer, you have to put. together a timeline, you to go back. You have to trace basically the.

existence and the trajectory of. Hamas from the rise to power. But the real breaking point, I'll. say, is 2021. What happened in 2021? Three things happened in 2020. 2021, you have tensions at. Al-Aqsa Mosque. You have famously all the tensions. that went on in Sheik Jarrah, where there are settlers taking. Palestinian homes in East Jerusalem. That caused a lot of tension. What happened it at.

the Al Aqsa complex that. year. There were all kinds of. clashes between Israeli border. police and Muslim worshipers. And this went on for some time. It was also, it was May. And what happened was. that three. things happened. Hamas fired rockets into Israel, killing about 14 Israelis. Riots broke out in the middle of. Israel, across the country actually, internal riots, between Arab. Israelis and Israeli Jews.

And suddenly the West Bank woke up. from a very long slumber. Suddenly you had for the first time. in a very longtime militants who. were firing at IDF troops. I remember seeing videos of, I. think it must've been hundreds of. Palestinian men. Marching towards the border. Did I think they were going to answer? No. But I remember calling my father, I. remember call him and saying, this. video I'm seeing, this. doesn't look good. This is an indication of something. And in the Israeli media, if you look back at the reports,

the Israelis perceive this to be an. indication that we have a big threat. from within. This contributed also to the rise of. the right in the years that followed. So the first order of business was. we have Arab Israelis, and they're. a problem. We have 2 million Palestinians. within our borders. And the next thing that happened, and you saw the borders of Israel. proper. Yeah, within the 48 borders. Yeah, yeah. Between the sea and the. green line. And then you had over the next year. or two, you might remember, increased operations by the IDF. Suddenly in Nablus,

which used to be called the terror. capital of Palestine, suddenly there. was a new militia that formed, it's. called Lion's Den. Suddenly in Jenin, the refugee camps. in the north of the West Bank, there are armed men doing military. marches with M16s and masks. on. And that was the second order of. business. And the last thing that. the Israelis believed was that. Hamas firing some. sort of like a water pipe rockets. into Israel was an indication. of something to come, something much. bigger.

So what was this? I mean, as you said, you could trace. this all the way back to. the, you know, British Mandate or. whatever, you can trace it far back. as you wanted, but you think this. really began with. clashes between. is both Israeli citizens, Arabs and Jews within Israel. And in. 2021. So how did that lead to? Not exactly. What I think is that, and this. is why you have to go a little.

further back. Sorry, this is a bit of a... I think that the internal riots were. absolutely meaningless. I think what happened in the West. Bank was somewhat meaningful, and I can explain later why I don't. think it had any end to it, why. it wasn't going to come to any. significant end. But what happened in 2021, why Hamas. fired rockets? No one bothered to ask, why are they. suddenly firing rockets? Hamas came to power in 2007, I think it was 2007. They come to power, and this is a. group that overthrew the PA.

Right, the Palestinian Authority. The Palestinian Authority, they. tossed them off. Fruit Tops took. control of Gaza. And they came, why. would people have wanted them, or. why did they think that the. Palestinians deserve them rather. than the PA? They were saying, we're a resistance. group. We're Palestinians, we were exiled in 48, and. the whole purpose of our existence. in one way or another is to. get back. So unlike the PA, we're not going to. sit and make peace with the Jews. We're not gonna sort of like. coordinate with them, we are not.

going arrest people at their behest. We're going to fight. And that's what they did from 2007. to 2014. I think you have three to four. ground invasions, if I'm. not mistaken. And so they were doing kinda, they. were fulfilling their promise. They didn't win, they didn't. liberate Palestine, but what. did happen is that Hamas didn't have. a lot of political tension because. they were either fighting, being bombed, or people. were cleaning up the rebel. But in 2014,

just bear with me a moment, in 2014. suddenly silence. falls upon Gaza. I think this was a silence that, I don't know if Hamas even predicted. such a silence whatever. Come upon Gaza, the Israelis. certainly wanted it. It's the last war, it's called. suketan in Hebrew. It's The Last War. The Israelis, you know, bombed a. bunch of tunnels. There was some ground operations, lots of strikes. And it was kind of this thing where. they came and said, look, we sent. them back. I think the quote from.

the general at the time was, we send. them back 50 years or. a hundred years or to the Stone Age, whatever it was. But that's a bit of a problem for. Hamas. You're a group of gritty, sort of nitty gritty resistance. fighters. You came to power. You fought some wars. Didn't win. But you didn't get totally beat. And now you're just bureaucrats. Now you have to go from grit to. governance. And that's fine.

Maybe for a year, maybe for two, because the next big battle is. coming. What happens three, four, five years. later? At some point people are sitting. there, they have a. much lower quality of life. than people in the West Bank. Palestinians in the west bank at the. very least can come into Israel for. years and years and years. Half of them illegally in work, make. an Israeli salary, go back home. In Gaza, it's, you know, they didn't have a whole. lot going for them. And I think at. some point in time, maybe around.

2018, it. became clear that I think. people are kind of starting to ask. the question is like what Okay, if. we picked you and you're supposed to. fight and now we're just eating shit. here, we might as well get the PA. back. And you say that you don't sit down. with the Jews and you don t. recognize the Jews and you re not. going to make peace with them, but. like, you talk to them on a weekly. basis, you just have some Egyptian. guy in the middle playing telephone. tag. And I think that the. leader of Hamas, I think Yahya. Sinwar, I think he understood that,

I think around 2018, he began to understand that like, this is not a sustainable, this is something sustainable. Can't keep going like this. When do you think the. planning for October 7th. began? And what was the thinking? Look, in terms of the planning, if. you're talking about the concrete. steps, look, I'm not an intelligence. analyst. From what we know, I think from. what was released, we understand.

that sometime in October 2022, it might have, the real planning. could have been underway. The conceptual planning for. something of this sort, I had been. working within. Sinwar since he was probably. a teenager. I mean, there's a famous quote. I think he did the interview in. Hebrew. Which is like all the more. eerie, it's a crazy interview and. he's sitting on a plastic chair. outside and they asked him. something about, you know, do you.

want to kill us? Do you want war. with us? And he goes, listen, right now, you're strong, you've got nuclear bombs, I. can't, I can touch you, but. in 20, maybe 15. years, you are going to. be weak inside and. that's I'm going to strike you. And in 2018, Yahya. Sinwar gave an interview. It's crazy, because I think we were. just talking about this before we. started. Jeffrey Goldberg of The Atlantic, he.

put out a piece called Sinwar's. Marsha Folly. I think it came out in the summer, August, September, and he. ventured an argument as to. why Sinwar could have done something. so stupid. And I'm bracketing morals here. I'm not talking about whether he was. good or bad. I'm just talking. conceptually speaking. Like the pure analysis of it, yeah. Yeah, exactly. And he had this line, I. must have read this piece four to. five times, and unto this day I. can't understand what he meant. He said something to the. effect of.

Yahya Sunwar fell prey to. Muslim Brotherhood supremacy, conspiracism, and he lacked. reasoning capabilities. Something out of like a first year. philosophy paper. He wrote a couple of books in. prison. In the decades he spent in prison. He wrote one book? One book, a novel. Yeah, he's something of the road. I forget the name, the carnation and. the eagle or something. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And he was. reading quite a bit. He'd have. people, he'd read a lot,

sort of like old. Right. Right, so he's not an illiterate. savage, whatever you think, I'm not. endorsing that. He could be a. savage. But he wasn't an illitterate savage. He was definitely literate. Yeah, he definitely had reasoning. capabilities. Yeah, you can use reasoning. capabilities to do very, very bad. things. People do. All the time. He did. But again, that's not the point. It's probably pretty obvious by now. that you definitely need the. Hallow app. You need peace and the Hallowe app. can bring you there. And there's something pretty great. starting on Hallow, starting April.

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So Goldberg's analysis, which is to. say again, Goldberg is not. even like a real person. He's like a symbol of the American. ruling classes, conversations with. itself, but he's. reporting back to his masters. There's no reason behind this. He's just. I don't know if he was reporting. back to his masters like I don't. know Jeffrey Goldberg I don know who. he reports to if you report in the. media ecosystem in the United States. that's considered like the highest. level of. So I don't know if he was reporting. to anyone, but he certainly. believes, I would assume he.

believes this, he wrote a whole. essay on it, that this was. all just. rabid anti-Semitism and a. failed, and the worst part about the. piece is that he already. determines the success. He claims it's his march of. folly, meaning he failed. Not only was he stupid and. he had no logic whatsoever, but he failed. And with him, all of his buddies, Hezbollah, Eran, they all failed.

And it's over, it sucks, you had a. good, you tried, but you failed. In 2018, and this is a very important quote, there was an Italian journalist. who's since left journalism, which is crazy to me, but she went. out with a bang, Francesca Barri or something. She did an interview with Yehison. Awad in Gaza, 2018. The interview was later published by. Ynet in a Hebrew paper. And it's a fascinating bit. This was, again, if we talk about. the silence that came upon Gaza in.

2014, this is at the. height of the silence, 2018. Not a lot of people remember the. wars that happened four years ago. And people are starting to feel a. little antsy, a little jittery. Israel's super happy, because. they're like, if we just keep. feeding them, this will be great. We can ride this way forever. And she asked him this question. about the next war. And it's crazy that, you know, Jeffrey Goldberg didn't quote Sinwar. once in his entire piece.

Seriously? As far, I might be wrong, but I. believe that he didn't quote Sinbar. once in his whole piece. And there's. a plethora of quotes. And they're all very, very useful in. trying to understand what the hell. happened. And he says, he. says something to the effect of, and I quote, The next war or in the next war, victory for Netanyahu. will be worse. than defeat. This is a guy who apparently already. knew that Netanyah would still be in.

power. You might ask, because the. next war is the fourth war. Which cannot be and. cannot end like the third, which ended like the second and. which ended like the first. And his closing line is they should. take over Gaza. Who should take over Gaza? Israelis.

The next war is the fourth, it can't. end like the third, which ended like. the second and the first. So for those who aren't steeped in. this, why would the head of. Hamas want the Israelis to take over. Gaza? I don't know at that point if he. wanted the Israelis to take over. Gaza, but I think. he was pointing to. something that's quite theoretically. elaborate, like a very, very. high level understanding of how. history functions. Sounds that way. Um, which is...

He didn't want them to take over. Gaza, but I think he understood. that if there were to be another. war, that it would be a. disastrous war, and that it. will force Israel into a corner. where they would have. two options. Either we destroy this entire place, and or we occupy Gaza. But the problem is that the Israelis. already occupied Gaza. They already tried it, and they. left, and left for very good.

reasons. It was economically taxing, it was unsustainable. Israeli soldiers could die. There were RPG attacks on. settlements. And I think he understood that. he would, in the next. war, if there were to be a next war. Put the Israelis in a position. where they would be forced to grope. around in the gray for a very, very long time. Even if it would appear otherwise. from inside, even if it could be. sold to the population otherwise. And along these lines,

there is another quote, if. you don't mind. About a year before. October the 7th, don't quote. me on this, but I think a year. before October 7th. Sinwar did a speech and. he convened the leaders of his. factions and various Imams in Gaza. And it's like, it's a pretty boring. speech and he has no rhythm and he's. screaming way too loud. But there's one point that tons of. people have cropped and isolated on. Instagram. And he has this line.

and he says, He goes, by God, I see it with the sight of my eyes. A regional, religious. war that will burn with. it the green and the dry. You mean the one we're in right now? Yeah, the one that will go on for a.

very, very long time, even if it. appears to have ended. So it sounds like. you think that in. planning the attacks of October. 7th, he saw the long game. and understood that it would. be hard for Israel to. deal with those consequences over. time. I think, to. put it a little more specifically, I think Sinuad understood that the.

status quo that fell into place. after 2014, this long. silence, that it was poison. for the Palestinian cause. The notion of Palestinian. resistance, if your cause is that. Palestinians should just live, go to. work, bring their bread home, then. it's certainly antithetical to that. I think he understood that this was. poison, and that if he. continued on this way... What will the next generation say. when they didn't grow up with any. wars? How long can you go on putting on. marches for martyr children with.

cardboard tanks and fake RPGs? How long you can go on convening. your Imams to talk about the day. after? Who's going to be the next Imam of. Al-Aqsa after we liberate Palestine? How long could you go with the. foaming platitudes? It can't go on. And the longer you let it go on, the. weaker you get. And I think he understood that. one thing was certain. You know, when you shake a snow. globe, you can shake it, shake. it shake it the flakes fly. everywhere. And the one thing of. which you can be certain is that.

the flakes won't fall in. the same place. That's the one think you can know. And I think he understood that. in that that an attack like this, it's like it's the 9-11 of the of. this conflict, that. whatever was before won't. be after. And that's why he caught a bloodbath. You rinse the slate clean. And it's having or. likely to have similar effects to. the effects of 9-11 in the U.S. It draws the country. into all kinds of unanticipated.

conflicts that weaken the country. and cause internal division. within the country. Yeah. That'd be my guess. So to that extent, it's successful. It is strategic. In the short term, it's been. successful, certainly. And I think in the long term, I. think everyone, especially Israelis, have to wait. There's a status quo that dies. And there's this notion in Israel. now that the status quo died. and we immediately established a new. one. Meaning, they broke the last status. quo where we had peace and we had.

these little boxing rounds every two. years with Hamas or whatever. But now we're strong. Now we do whatever we want. We bombed them, we bombed that, we. bombed in Lebanon, we bomb it on. We're in control. But you don't decide when a new. status quo comes into birth. That's history. There are millions of variables that. come into that decision. Gaza's not even being rebuilt, currently Hamas has control of I. think 46, 48% of. Gaza. So Israelis are groping around,

I think they're entering into. probably what will be, in. retrospect, the darkest and most sp-. the establishment of the state. They're groping around in the gray. The cost of living is already making. it hard to live here, and it's not. getting any better. Unfortunately, it's likely to get. worse, and a lot of Americans fill. the gap with credit cards, not. just for fancy dinners, but to cover. things like groceries and bills. That is a disaster. It's understandable, but don't go. down that road because there is. a tax, in effect a survival tax,

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think that's going and why it is as. dark as it's been in almost 80. years, but. Back to October 7th itself. Yeah, sure. So that was, you. said you thought it was probably. in the planning phases for at least. a year. It would have had to have. been just given its scale. I would. I think if you also look in October. 2022, this is what the Israelis say, I think they found some kind of. binder on the border, October 2022. on it, but that was. the year in which Hamas repaired.

their relations with the Shia axis. That's the year when suddenly you. had, I had Haneeya going to Moscow, they repaired relations with Syria, and that was kind of I think the. key into getting the back into the. fold with people like Nasrallah. Suddenly you have Islamic Jihad and. Hamas are meeting with NasrAllah on. a regular basis. I think they were invited to Iran. also at a certain point. And I think so those are some pretty. serious indications. I mean, Israeli intelligence. being as. effective as it is.

clearly must have picked up signals. this was going on. That's already been released. Yeah. I mean, there are people who. probably know this better than I, but. there is a document. that circulated within Israeli. intelligence called, I think, Jericho Wall. There was an intelligence analyst, I. believe she was a female, who. sort of saw what was. happening in Gaza. There were certain military drills, certain speeches, and there was an. indication that they were planning. something really serious.

And the story goes that her. higher-ups, I don't think it was Glenn. Bergman, reported on this if I'm not. mistaken. The story goes that our. higher ups basically said like, yeah, yeah, that's cute. It's like inadmissible trash. You had also soldiers at the. observation posts along the border. who, I don't. know when exactly, I don't know if this was in the. weeks or the months leading up to. October the 7th, but that were. reporting to their higher ups that. like there was some strange little.

It commences and. much has been written about and even. more speculated about a so-called. stand down order or the Israeli. government responds to it. What's your belief about what. happened? Are you asking whether or not I. think the Israeli. higher-ups wanted this. to get out of control? No, I'm asking. like, what did happen? What do you think actually happened? Why from an.

outsider perspective, it seems like. the response was inadequate. Yeah, it was certainly inadequate, right? Why? Look, I don't know, but what's. strange to me is that I. think it was in the week or two. after Tzachia Negbi, who was like. the equivalent to the head of. Homeland Security, I guess, or the. National Security Council, something. like that, in Israel, he came out and admitted that I. thinks three to four hours before. the attack, there are certain. intelligence officials and I think. the general, like they convened, there was a discussion.

It's not like they woke up at 6.30. a.m. So there was certainly something. that happened among the highest. echelons. One question I've had is why... Wait, do we know what they talked. about? No, but there's a quote that. circulated in Israeli media that. apparently the general at the time. got out of bed and. his wife was sort of like, what's. going on? And he just apparently. turned around and said, Gaza's going. to be destroyed. That's a call that circulate around. Israeli media. I don't know at what time this.

happens. Could have been at 629, I doubt it though, because. apparently the people were convened. before. I don't know. I know what I saw on October 7th, I know where I was. So what did you see and what's your. conclusion? One thing I'll say is that three. weeks before October the 7th, I met with a journalist. He's a British journalist. And he'd come like a year and a half.

before. and he was starting out fresh. I don't think he knew. Israel-Palestine super well. And I wanted to become a mainstream. journalist at the time, so I thought. he could help me scratch each. other's backs. And we would talk a lot about what. was going on. And for about a. year-and-a-half, I was telling him. that something's going to happen. Like there's something weird that's. going on. And he'd listen to me and he'd help. me out. And about three weeks before. October the 7th, we met for a beer. in Jerusalem. And that was the same. day in which the Palestinians, I believe it was three weeks before. we're doing these marches of return.

You know, when they flood the. borders, they throw incendiary. balloons, burn some fields and wait. for the Israelis to come back and be. like, okay, what will it take you? What's your price? What will it takes you to shut the. fuck up? And he asked me, he's like, what, why do you think this is happening? And I remember distinctly looking at. him and saying, I don't know. Because after 2021 or 2022, I believe, Benet, Naftali. Benet lifted. the permit, what do you call it? The permit. ceiling, as it were, like the quota,

it's like some 20, 22,000 Gazans. proceeds permits to come to. Israel after. years of them not having any. Um, and so usually they would do. these sorts of antics to get. something. We want construction. materials. We want work permits. We want something, but there was. nothing really to ask for. And so he, when we said goodbye. that day, I remember, I'll never. forget this. He looked at me and he. said, you know, all right, I think. you're a really smart guy. Um, And I appreciate you've taught.

me a lot, but. I just think you've misunderstood. this place. I think you're a bit apocalyptic. I looked at it and I said, Tom, I. think you've spent a little too much. time with the Israelis. And so if I could have come to those. conclusions with the limited amount. of information I had, I'm sure there are many people. within the intelligence. establishment that had some idea. Do I think that Bibi allowed. 3,000 or 2,000 Hamas.

militants to enter the country and. kill people? I'm. a little doubtful. From an American perspective or the. perspective of anyone who's visited. that border, which I have. Pretty secure border looks like. the southern border so like how. How did that happen? Does anyone fit? Let me rephrase has there been. What you consider an. honest and reliable accounting of. how it happened? Like how did these guys get in here?

I think it's known. What do you mean by how? I think physically speaking, people. know how they got in. I mean, the border was largely, I. mean people were in their bunks. sleeping. It was also a Jewish. holiday. There was no increased level. of alertness as far as I've heard. You certainly didn't have drones or. anything in the air, which could. have solved this entire problem of. course, like 15 minutes. If you have enough guys enough RPGs, enough explosives, you break through. concrete. Oh, I know that, but you just. imagine that the border with Gaza,

when there are, you know, credible. intelligence reports, it's something. weird is going on. Maybe we don't. know what it is, but they would be. on, you know, sufficient alert to. have stopped this at the line. Why something didn't happen between. that meeting, which I've heard was between certain. members of intelligence at maybe. three in the morning, why there. weren't drones that were put in the. air or a helicopter or. heightened alertness, significantly. heightened alert, I don't know. But what I have learned over many, many years in Israel is that you. would be surprised by what.

people can get away with. I know people in the West Bank who. have fake Israeli IDs, who slip in. illegally and stolen Israeli cars to. smoke hash with their friends on the. other side and then Go back. You'd be surprised. So the myth of Israeli government. efficiency is a myth. Yeah, I don't doubt it, yeah. So security's not as competent as. people imagine it is. When it wants to be competent, it's. very competent. I mean, if you ask yourself, for.

example, in Lebanon and Iran right. now, how is it that they have. thousands upon thousands of targets. that are readily available? That's exactly right. It's because they wanted to have. them. They set their sights on Iran and. Lebanon, and they neglected Gaza. Yeah, and that's the central. question is why. And so once it's in. progress, there is a stand-down. order. What was that? Why did they do that? Well, you can't flood the area with.

IDF because look, you're talking. about a lot of troops, especially. for the holidays or maybe in the. North, it might be two, three hours. away. So I think it's a bit unreasonable. to expect that they would have. flooded the whole place with. troops. It's harder, people have to. get their guns and get equipment, it's logistical mayhem. There were soldiers in the first two. weeks of the war that didn't even. have helmets. You had Jewish. communities that were sending. basic equipment because there were. massive shortages. The real question, in my opinion, is. why, if there was some kind of. indication around 3 a.m., why the Air Force wasn't.

involved, why helicopters, drones, or fighter jets weren't involved? Because that doesn't take a whole. lot of time as far as I'm concerned. And we don't know the answer. I don't expect to know the answer, at least for a very, very long time. She was rare these days, a company. that actually makes things here in. the US, not just designed here. or assembled here, actually. manufactured here, start to finish. in the United States. Brooklyn Bedding builds every. mattress in their factory in. Arizona.

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attack were to be successful, and. I think if we follow Sinwar's. thread, I think. it's fair to assume that he knew, well, what do you mean by, you know, that this war will take with it, or. burn with it all the green and all. the dry? It's called scorched earth. Yeah. I think, yeah, I think there. was an assumption that something of. this nature would happen. The exact extent, no one can predict. Right, of course. not. But that there would be massive. change, potentially even of borders.

Long term, potentially. In Gaza, certainly. I think the talk of border changes, for example, in Syria and Lebanon, I. think it's a bit overblown. I think that's a big overblow. Yeah, I have no idea. We'll see. But, you know, things change. Well, I just have to pause and ask. what at this stage, you now, years later, what is the plan. for Gaza? Do you think the Nanyahu. government's plan for God's got all.

these people living there? He said on television this morning, we're going to go with the Trump. plan to move them all out of Gaza. Highly doubt that that's going to. happen. Well, I kind of do. That too. I think there's. this myth that certainly. circulates in the Arab world, but. definitely here in America too, that there's a whole lot more. strategy, that is a whole a. lot more foresight in Israel. Yes, but people definitely believe. that this is part of a plan, Greater. Israel, this is a strategy.

I think you're over-exaggerating. Estimating the the foresight. Well, I wouldn't be surprised if I. am not you specifically But I don't. think there's a massive plan in. Gaza There are certainly plans that. have been thrown around but right. now as far as you can see and. this is precisely what's in water. I know that the Israelis had zero, this is a fact, they had zero plan. at least communicated to the United. States for what would happen after. the Ayatollah was killed in Iran. They didn't have a good government. and waiting or any kind of. Because it doesn't matter to them.

Well, clearly. What matters to Israel, what's. useful for Bibi Netanyahu. specifically is simply. chaos. And the more definition that. is given to the chaos, the more he. has to account for the shape that. it's taken. Right, smart. That's right. The difference between Iran and. Gaza though is Gaza is like on your. border. So would they want, would he want. chaos in Gaza? Well, if you look at the border. right now, I mean, you have. a ton of buffer. It's not really bordering.

Israel anymore. True. And so in that sense, I think, and. there's not a ton of chaos, meaning. Hamas is, I don't know if they're in. shambles. I think there are a lot of. tunnels that are still left, for. example. They have light weapons, they have. AK-47s, they like tiny rockets. they can sometimes send in. They're collecting taxes, apparently. So, they're functioning. Are they a threat to Israel at. this moment in time? No, in that sense, Bibi did the. minimum he would have to do and. still stopping short of actually.

determining a reality because. then he would have to explain to the. Israelis, why did I do X and not Y? So you don't think that there. anybody has a clear picture of where. Gaz is in 10 years. But I do think that Bibi. and the administration and the IDF. alongside probably have. an idea. where Gaza, what they will do. in Gaza if X. happens with Iran, if Y happens with.

Lebanon. Bibi's playing sort of musical wars. Why does he have a war? Why did they time Lebanon right. now? It's a fail safe for Iran. If Trump decides to pull out of. Iran, if Iran doesn't go the way. Bibi needs. Then he always has Lebanon. And if all of that doesn't go the. way he needs, he could go back into. Gaza. So you're suggesting that he has to. have a war. At least until he gets elected next, I think so.

You really think that's the motive. I think there are many motives. I think this is certainly the timing. of a lot of things. The strange thing about Bibi is. that, look, on the. one hand, there's a national. interest that lines up with a. personal interest. It's not just that Bibi's doing. something that wouldn't. in any way benefit the national. security of the country. I believe that as far as Israel's. concerned, striking it on is quite. possibly a great idea.

You have one of the largest proxy. networks in the history of the. Middle East. That's bent on doing something to. Israel, destroying them forever, I. don't know if that was exactly the. case. You have a massive. paramilitary group on your border. with Lebanon. Those are valid, relatively objective, strategic. goals. But if you could tinker with them, if you can time them and modulate. them to serve your personal. motives, well, it's a win-win.

So, have you heard anybody. articulate plans for just to be. totally clear on this, for moving. the... More than one, probably fewer than. two million people in. Gaza anywhere? No, but I have something else that I. don't think has ever been released, actually. I was working with the Washington. Post until they fired their whole. foreign desk, as you saw. And we were doing a lot of. interviews on the day. after, specifically reconstruction,

and trying to follow the money. Because that's what Gaza's about. right now. It's all about money. And it's not just American money or. Israeli money, it's the Gulf. countries, it is Egypt. The PA wants to get their finger in. there as well. And I confirmed this with. two, actually quite possibly three. sources, if I'm not mistaken. And this might not end up being the. case, but I understood that the. center that was put together by the. American Army and Kiryat Gat, to map out or sort of strategize. about Gaza and assist the Israelis,

that they were making calls, that their lawyers were making calls. to certain organizations to look. into the status of private property. Gaza. Basically the thing, among many. things, I heard that the plan was, have you ever seen the flyers that. the Israelis drop in Gaza or the. evacuation notices? Yeah. And they usually divide it. into sort of blocks, you have. numbered blocks and those are. private properties, right? Now if you have an entire swath of. territory, entire neighborhoods that.

are upside down are backwards. that no longer follow the logic of a. grid. You can't expect that some Qatari. or Saudi or whatever company is. going to come in and rebuild gas. identically to the way it was. before. No. So I heard that the plan was to. have, to sort of like. rotate, take a population from. an area, move them away, build. a massive complex as it were, it. could be condominiums, could be. apartments, I don't know what, and. then move them back and continue. doing this rotation for. however long it takes.

What does that mean? It means that. you are fundamentally altering. The urban planning and. with the demography and. private property of Gaza. If you have a building on. a swath of land, on a plot of land. that used to have five to seven bits. of private property, you have to reconfigure and you have. suspend that private. property and create a new precedent. I was told by someone. very very high up in the PA.

that this was intended, that there was going to be a. suspension of private property for a. period of maybe seven years? What does that mean? It quite possibly, and this is the. most cynical possible conclusion you. could draw, it could I. mean, that. It could mean basically that Israel, look, in the West Bank, it's. sometimes Israel struggles to take. certain parts of swaths of land. or to build actual settlements. Sometimes they'll have caravans in.

certain areas, but not houses. And the reason is that to some. degree Israel still beholden to. Ottoman and Jordanian legal. precedent. And they can wiggle around, you can. maneuver, but it. can't be nullified. It's very hard. You see us in East. Jerusalem. Exactly. All the time. So what happens, I'll pose you the. question I guess, what happens in. Gaza if you suspend all of. private property and you're going to. say in seven years we're going. revisit it, or it will be. reconfigured by legal experts who by. then will have disappeared. You break a massive precedent.

It's just a reset. Exactly. It's a golden opportunity. Will that happen? I don't know. But based on everything I've heard, it is within the realm of. possibility. And it makes logical sense as well. So it's a, yeah, did people in Israel take. the Trump administration's plan for. redevelopment with casinos and. beachfront condos, they take that. seriously? Like citizens in Israel, people? You think the government did.

Like that's not going to happen. I highly doubt it. Yeah. It's still run by a militant group. There's still some, there's hundreds. of kilometers of tunnels that have. been dealt with by the IDF, which. they also lied about. I spoke to a general, his name is. Itzhak Breik. Have you heard of him? No. It's strange because he's not, I. think his English is a little bad, so we don't hear from him a lot in. the West, but he was a guy who went.

on three months before October the. 7th and said, quote, there will be a massacre here. This is a guy who was a reserve. general who also audited, he. was tasked with, I think, for many, many years, auditing troops, he worked for the IDF audit, meaning. he would go between fronts, between. units, and assess troop readiness, routines, equipment. He knew the IDS inside and out, and. he worked under several generals. leading up to October the 7th, and. for years he was screaming that we. are, we're not really Ready.

for anything. And we're cutting our ground troops. because we want to be a compact, technologically adept. But we're basically rendering. ourselves naked on the ground. And he went down to the Gaza border. and he sees that basically the. soldiers treat it like summer camp. You have girls and doing. TikTok videos. It's like summer Camp. It reached a point again, back to. the status quo where Israelis. genuinely believed that. the conflict was kind of over.

This is just, it's gonna be this. way. There's gonna to be a big wall. They're gonna be there. We're gonna. to here. ... I sat with him a. lot about a year ago, and he was telling me he was getting. calls from a lot of soldiers who. work in the tunnel units, and I. spoke to several soldiers who either. worked in the tunnels or were tasked. with guarding them, supervising the. work. That there was tons left, tons left. He said, this general said 75%.

I don't know if that's definitely. true, but I heard from a lot. soldiers that the material. used to. totally destroyed tunnels is very. expensive and perhaps in short. supply. And so a lot of what was happening. was sort of sealing the tunnels. You pour concrete inside and. it just takes probably some dudes, however many days later to come and. undo the concrete, break the. concrete. And I also heard from soldiers that. Hamas was repairing tunnels during. the war.

In the midst of fighting, there were. tunnels that were being, or shafts. that were being repaired. For decades, Russell Brand was one. of the most famous actors and. comedians and agnostics. in the world. Today, he is one of most. sincere Christians we know, a follower of Christ. His personal transformation is. remarkable. We saw it up close. He has now recounted it in an. amazing book called How to Become a. Christian in Seven Days. And it recounts what happened to.

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Through Jesus. We're proud to launch. our new bookstore with Russell. Brands, How to Become a Christian in. Seven Days. It is the message this country needs. most. Find us today on. tuckercarlsonbooks.com. There was a big debate in this. country about, uh, whether or not the Israeli. government sent money, not its. own money, but the money of the. United States and Qatar to Hamas, whether Netanyahu did that, um, and then it seemed to have been. confirmed. Will you tell us what you know about. that and what the motive.

was? Are we talking about the money that. came in before October. the 7th? Of course, before October 7th. Oh, the suitcases of cash. Exactly. Well, yeah, I know that there was. tons of cash, I don't actually have. the numbers, I forget. What was the thinking? I mean, I think it's confirmed now. that was considered very. Controversial pictures of them. There are pictures of the suitcases. and no money going into yeah. Yes, definitely confirmed. The thinking was we. keep them happy and fat and. they don't bother us.

Which is again the logic of the. marches of return. We're gonna come. we're gonna make some noise until. these rails come and say What's your. price? What will it take to get you. to shut up more money more. work permits construction materials? It was part of maintaining a status. quo And. someone probably soon want to. realize that this, if I get too fat, if we get too fat, we won't be able. to move anymore. Right. I think, I think it's that simple. So from thousands of miles away, it seems like Israel.

seems like a pretty tough. project to keep going over. generations because. of the numbers, just tiny. countries surrounded by. people who don't like it or. recognize its legitimacy, some of. whom are motivated to do harm. So that's like, that's not a. good ratio over time, like it's. hard to maintain that. It's like, from the. Israeli perspective. Think ever think of that? No, but I think there's about there. may be two or three ways of looking.

at this. On the one hand there's a. demographic perspective. Yeah, that's what I mean. That's one perspective. And if you look at the numbers, so. like how many Jews are there in. Israel? I think there's seven, seven, something like that. You have two million Palestinians. who have citizenship. But I think the proper calculation. is within the. area under control, under Israeli. control, what's the population. divide? And at that what you have fifty. fifty. If you take the West Bank,

where there are also Jews living, but also Gaza, because these are all. areas that impinge upon. Israel and which are under. Israeli control tacitly, or. actually, you have 7. million Palestinians, two in Israel, three in the West bank, two in. Gaza, so seven, you've 7 million Jews. It's halved right now, it's split, half-half. Demographically speaking, that is a. problem. Do I think that will be what brings. Israel to its knees if it is ever. brought to his knees?

I was thinking more the macro. demographic problem of the. Arab world, the Muslim world, almost two billion. So when I hear. Netanyahu say we're fighting a seven. front war, whatever number of fronts. it was, seven fronts recently, I think you don't have the economy, you don't have the manpower, and. you no longer have the goodwill to. sustain that for very long at all. Like ultimately, if you have enough. enemies and there's too few of you. and enough them you're going to.

lose. People have been saying that. for a long time. Well, it's. It hasn't even been there 80 years, so. I think they bet on a few things. They have nuclear weapons, they have. a great intelligence agency, and. they bet on the incompetence of the. Muslim countries around them. But there's also a sense in which. you can't fight everybody. And so I don't see, when I. talk to Israelis and just when I. watch, I don't see any. long-term strategy that.

rests on real alliances. Like you have to have, this is true, not just for Israel, but for each one of us as a person. in this world, you have have more. powerful friends than you do enemies. or else ultimately you get. destroyed. And I don't see that. realization at all. It seems almost. deranged. I guess we have no who cares if you. have nuclear weapons. So does. everyone else like so what. everyone else does. Have nuclear weapons. But I mean, a lot of people have. nuclear, including in your region. That's true. But I think right now you have this. logic being pushed around by Bibi, which is, you know, peace through.

strength. I think the Israelis have this sense. that if we push long enough, let's. say we do manage to change the. regime in Iran, not topple it, but. change it. We could have an arrangement. The Gulf countries, because they've. felt very exposed right now, maybe there'll be tension with the. United States. Maybe this will also. bring other golf countries closer. to us. There are already tacit relations. between Saudi Arabia and Israel. They exchange intelligence among. other things, but maybe this will. bring them closer. I think they have pretty... Yeah. Well, the Saudis have been pushing.

for this. Yeah. They're on the same side as Israel, basically, on this question. And in Lebanon, what was the aim. when Israel went into Lebanon in the. 80s? The aim was we want to. change the demography, we're going. to change the government, we are. going to put the Christians in power. and make peace. The opposite happened. The opposite happens. And what are they doing now? I believe that in some. dim recess, it might not actually be. an active strategy, but I do believe. that, in some civil war in.

Lebanon, because between you and me, if I'm being totally honest, the. only way to deal with. Hezbollah is not just. a paramilitary group, they are. demographically entrenched. in the country. They are South. Lebanon, and they are the Shiite. population that was also oppressed. for a very long time. And there are a lot of shits in. Beirut now. It's not just the South, yeah. Yeah, and so I think there is. a desire for potentially civil war. in Lebanon. For sure. And that, I mean, you've seen this, well, you saw it in Syria, you know, you've see it in a lot of the same.

strategy. I'm just saying, and I'm. not attaching values to any of this, like what's right or wrong, or even. what's good for the United States, or any of that. I just think, as a general. principle, that's day trading, that's like a short-term. strategy that doesn't. work long-term, but maybe people. think it does work long term, or you. can do that forever. I don't think you can. No, probably not. I think they're hoping that either. this all turns out exactly the way. they want it, which is highly. unlikely, or that you have. enough chaos.

There's a desire for chaos. Right. That all of these places. should be at least uncertain. If we can't determine what the. best possible reality for us, then the very least the reality. should be indeterminate. It should be in flux. Right. No, I get it. I totally get it and. again, I'm not even judging this. or that's wrong. Not this is not a lecture. I just mean like as a, as a kind of almost a physics. principle in the. end or over time, chaos is. bad for you. It's bad for everybody. It is bad to have chaos nearby you.

It's Bad to have your neighbor get. divorced that actually increases the. chances you get divorced. There's a way in which chaos is a. virus and it, it. hurts you in the end, even though. you think you can control it, you. can't. That I think that's a pretty. stable principle. Of history. I think the big weak point of. Israel, I think sometimes. when you look strategically at the. surrounding countries, there's another point here, which is. Israel on the interior,

Israel psychologically. The Israeli psyche. Exactly. I think that, that is the actual weak. point, if anything brings. Israel to its knees, Which doesn't. mean it will be. Exterminated or extinguished that it. will die as a state, but the thing. that will fundamentally shatter the. foundation Either. to end the country or to start a. fresh status quo for the country. It will be internal. I believe that and if you want to. understand That.

dynamic I think you have to look to. the West Bank. And to say this is so often. overlooked, one of the only like real genocides. in history was the Romans in 70. AD in Jerusalem. And one of reasons that they were. able, that siege was successful is. because of the almost unbelievably. barbaric fighting between Jewish. factions within Jerusalem. Like the Romans got through because. the defenders were fighting each. other. I just think that's also. another principle. It's like if you destroy, if you.

don't have a unified country, you're. much weaker than you think you are, I guess. I mean, yes and no, sometimes I do. think about that. On the other hand, Israelis do, at least until now, they've shown a pretty serious. ability to just put all of their. problems aside. I mean if you look. at Bibi's opposition, Yair Lapid, he was asked I think two weeks ago. about greater Israel and he. couldn't even reject that as a. political position. He talked about scraping away. at Lebanon, which is fine if you're. Bibi or if you want to be with Bibi,

that's the doctrine. But you have this thing within the. Israeli opposition that Bibi. has put them in a corner that over. the course of the war, they have had. no choice but to. parrot his speech, to use his. language, and he buried them in. so doing. No, that's certainly what it seems. like, looking from the outside. Can I ask about the, I mean, again, this is an outsider's perspective, non-Hebrew speaking perspective, but. it seems the core division is. religious, non-religious,

or it has been. Is that still true? Where is that? The idea that, you know, a certain percentage of the country. doesn't serve, doesn't participate. meaningfully in the economy, and. there's deep resentment toward them. by people who do, that has been. true for a while. Is that's still true, is it more. true, less true? I think it's where it was a year. ago, probably where it was two years. ago, tensions, they rise and they. fall. I'm also not like the greatest. expert on that, but I think- But. you live there, or does that seem. like a crisis in the country? I don't think it has reached the.

point of a crisis, it could, it could. But again, I don't think if you'd. permit me to go back to something. else, I think you. were mentioning the Romans, and. it reminds of exile, and. I think What you see. in the West Bank, if you're talking. about long term, in. the darkest depths of the Israeli. psyche, what is going to affect the. longevity of the country? It's the interplay, the. psychological interplay between the. Israelis and the Palestinians. In the West bank?

It manifests itself most in the west. bank because in Tel Aviv, you have. like a bunch of schmucky lifestyle. yuppies in Tel-Aviv who just want to. forget, Tel Avive is the. subconscious of the subconscious of. Israel. Right. But the West Bank is where. the complexes at. the bottom of the Israeli psyche, it's where they play out. And so, at the end of the day, you have a strange problem, which is. that the Israelis come back, the. Jews come back after two to three. thousand years as, you know, they. were exiles.

We don't have to debate when. exactly, how many years. But what happens is you have people. who have a kind of, not a native right, but of Native. claim, who. come back in colonial costume. There's a reason why the relationship. between the Palestinians and the. Jews is different than that of. between the Palestinian and the. British and the Ottoman, because the. Ottomans never came and said like, this is our homeland, we're coming. back, now it's all ours. Nor did the British, that's. what the Israelis did, that what the. Jews did. And again, I don't want to debate.

sort of like what is right or. what is clean. I think by and large, it's fair to say that the Jews have. some kind of relationship with the. land. Meaning there are many Palestinian. villages that you. could trace their names back to. Jewish ancient settlements. Does it mean that an Israeli or a. Jew can come and take it? No, but what it does. mean is that you can't understand. the conflict between the Israelis or. the Jews and the Palestinians. without realizing that this is a. struggle for nativity.

And that in some way, they are the. mirror images of each other. And in many ways, the Palestinians. are the new Jews. And neither one really wants to. admit it, especially the Israelis. And so in the West Bank, I've been. in the west bank a lot the last few. months. The new Jews in what? Sense, the people who have the moral. authority of victimhood, like the world looks at them and. says, we feel sorry for you, you've. been mistreated. Treated, not about that, it's a tale. of exile and nostalgia. The differences that the. Palestinians are exiled on their own. land, which also makes it very. hard for the Israelis to deal with.

this problem. For them, it is a problem. We have people, and I always. say to Jews, to. Israelis in Israel, I'm like, look, if you guys, if. the Jews came back after 2,000 to. 3,000 years and didn't forget. that there were periods of. forgetting, why do you think that the. Palestinian's do the same. And they're right on the borders, they can see it. Couldn't see Israel from Europe, but you can see from Gaza, you can. it from the West Bank. What do they say when you say that?

They just go silent. They don't want to understand. There's a point. The problem in Israel is that I used. to have some Israeli. sort of religious friends who would. come to my dorm when I'd have my. Arab friends with me and we'd have. some really nice conversations. They even befriended each other. But at some point, my Israeli. friends stopped speaking to them. Because there's a point in. any Israeli dialog, there's point at which an Israeli. has to make a decision,

left or right. Am I going, if I go. down this path and really try to. understand the other side, I risk exposing certain things. with the grounds of my own identity. here, but the foundations of the. country that risk my identity. And the other option is I'm just. going to stop it here, turn around. and forget this happened. In the West Bank right now, there's some very, very weird. trends.

You have, you know, the number of. outposts in the West bank has. increased, I don't know by how. many, hundreds of out posts, almost. every other hill in the west bank. has a shack on it. The scale is insane. And I visit some of these outpost. and what you see is. a little bit of a strange thing. You have something called the hilltop. youth. Have you heard of this? Of course. So this is like the third mutation. of settlers. The first settlers were kinda like. kibbutznik people, right? What's their goal?

The goal of the kibbutznik is I need. to revive some kind of relationship. with the land. The first generation settlers were. not going down the hill and like pug. roaming people. They had their hill, they had their. barbed wire. You know, self-improvement. seemed like one of the main goals of. the first, of the kibbutz. generation. Yeah, we're going to. like improve ourselves by. making it green and growing things. I think a lot of it also had to deal. with the exile thing, that we. haven't been here. It's like a. prisoner who comes home after 30. years, walks into the.

kitchen, sees his wife and kid and. says like, hey, honey, how you. doing? Sits down as if nothing. happened. That was the design, you know, but. there's 30 years to make up for. In this case, you have two to 3,000. years to make it up for her. So part of the kibbutzik. ideologically was like, we have to. revive some sort of connection with. the land. But my point is that the. third mutation of the settlers, which is now the hilltop youth, They're strange. I mean, they now wear Palestinian. kofi, the Palestinian headdress that. Atifat used to wear.

They're wearing those things. Black ones. The white and black with the Palestinian. ones, which is kind of strange. because if you even dressed up for. Halloween like that in Tel Aviv, people would say things. People are very sensitive. It's a symbol of terrorism in. Israel. And you have the settlers. running around, throwing stones, wearing the very thing that once. frightened them as children. And you have another trend, which is now they want donkeys. Or there's a lot of shepherding, but. with machine guns. Or you have, you know, settler chic, which are like young outpost women. who are what they call.

Israelite fashion. Do you see where I'm going? Do you. where I go? Be more specific for. those of us who live in the United. States, what's Israelite fashion? It's kind of like in. Hebrew they use words like sort of. villagey, Israelite or pastoral, which is also the word in. Hebrew used to describe the. vibe you get in areas that used. to have Palestinian villages that. are now either forests or. towns, lots of wild, natural shrubbery.

and foliage. The point being is that what. you see in the West Bank now is an. attempt to. double down on Nativity. And so I was in a Palestinian. village, it's called Tur Mos Aya, it. gets attacked quite a bit. I don't know if you saw, there was a. report maybe six. months ago, if I'm not mistaken, of. like three to 4,000 olive trees that. were cut down in the West Bank. So it was a big story. And I was there when this happened, that weekend by chance.

And I remember sitting with one of. these Palestinian guys and. we were attacked by settlers once. and they went back, they burned. about four houses down right in. front of me. I saw it, they stabbed a bunch of. sheep. This is the first time I ever saw. this with my eyes, saw videos all. the time, but I actually saw the. smoke billowing out of the houses. And the guy said something pretty. interesting. He looked at me and he. was very calm and he said, you know, they want, they wanted all. that once. I said, what do you mean? He goes, he goes, you,

they kind of want to be like us, you they want they want shepherd, but they also have machine guns. And they want the olive trees, but they don't see that we pave our. roads around olive trees. They want it all at once. They want. to slice the mountain, get the. barbed wire on, you put your houses. there. They want the compensate for 3,000. years. They want get back to some. point where they were 3,00. years ago. They want all that once. They want now. And they don't t want anyone to be. there to disturb them.

And so it puts the settlement. movement into a strangely, I'd call it an autoimmune Position. Sort of autoimmune because. these people are simply taking hill. after hill after hill hoping that. there will come a day one fine. morning when they wake up and it's. empty and they have quiet. But even when that happens they. don't have enough people to populate. People don't want to live in the. West Bank. Why? The average Israeli does not want to. be sitting on a hilltop surrounded. by Palestinians. The average Israeli wants to, you.

know, sit in Tel Aviv. Blacks, maybe smoke a joint. Make money, buy a house in Greece. The keffiyeh is very confusing. to me. Settlers dressing as Palestinians. So is the message we're the real. Palestinians? I think what's going on is. subconscious. I don't think they're actually. conscious of it. Because I went to a settlement, I. went a fresh outpost a few weeks. ago. I'm surprised they let me in. Someone pulled a gun on me when I. went in. And then they realized I,

you know, my name's Aryeh Chaim. Flanzerashin. They're like, oh, you're right, come in. We got to talking and this guy's. wife is one of these settler-chic. influencers. And I wanted to talk to her about. the fashion. I wanted her to hear. like, how do you explain this? So that I could then put it into a. piece. And her husband is also sort of this. lumberjack guy. He's got blue eyes, dirty blonde. hair. He's like towing the fields, which I'm pretty sure belong to. people just down the hill. And- Where are they from originally? One of them is actually from the.

West Bank, was born in another. settlement in the West bank. And I believe she is from. somewhere inside Israel, maybe. Jerusalem, but I might be wrong. Times of Israel did a piece on her, actually like a week before I was. there. And they got real weird with me. They asked like what do you want? I was like, I'm just here to talk about. fashion and then her husband gave. her a look She walked off went. completely silent and he sat down. with me alongside the guy who. pulled his gun on me And the guys. kind of looking me like who are. you? What do you? Want I was in the. journalists. He said can I see your. work? I said, yeah, I write about.

like security matters This is for a. magazine piece Long. story short, they kicked me out. They said you should probably get. out of here. And when I went outside to smoke a. cigarette before leaving. The guy who pulled his gun on me is. just sitting there and I said can I. ask you a question? He goes, yeah. I said, why. can't we have a conversation? Because I told them, like, I'm. wondering about this nativity thing, and the guy looked at me and he was. kind of, he knew something was off, because he's like, it's not that. many people who do that.

So the fact that you know it, that. you're aware of it, probably means. that I. triggered him a little bit. And when we're outside smoking a. cigarette, I asked him, why can't we. talk? He goes, you know, it could. have gone a lot worse for you today. He goes, you know what I mean? I said, are you threatening me? He said, no, but there are people. who would do a serious number. on you. And I said even to a fellow Jew? And he said, it's beyond ideology. He said this is beyond ideology.

and I spent the whole car ride home. thinking about what he could have. possibly meant by that. What is it about then? When he said, this is beyond. ideology, and I already laid out. sort of like the nativity dynamics, but within the settlement movement, what could he possibly mean by this. is beyond ideology? Are these religious people? That's another question about the. settlers in the West Bank. They're not entirely religious. You know, you have a lot of. religious, there are religious.

people. There's also a lot of people who. aren't that devout or pious. that religion in certain cases. becomes a kind of esthetic thing or. a vehicle for sort of nationalistic. ends. I mean the settlement that I was in. with this sort of the settler. fashionista, a week. after she had a DJ at. the outpost, it's an outpost there's. two people living there, it's a. shack, a DJ and. a bunch of women dressed in. Israelite clothing doing a. meditative been like.

Like trans disco. kind of like party. What? Yeah, it was kind of strange. So I'm having trouble fitting this. into a category. So the two motives that. you always hear here in the US or. when I've been in Israel are either. these are, you know, religious. people who are sort of acting. out some kind of millennialist. vision, or they're. people who want cheaper housing and. housing in Israel. Those are two. separate categories of settler. Right, but you're describing. a third category that's kind of.

like cosplay, kind of, like, what are you describing? Why are they doing this? What I'm describing is a part of. the broader category of settlers who. are there to, at the forefront, who are forwarding, who were. pushing the settlement forward, as opposed to the people on cheap. housing who just literally go into. Tel Aviv, you know, where it all comes. from, I don't know. But I think this is a big commitment. to move to a hilltop. surrounded by concertina wire like.

You don't do that by accident. But if you're a 14, 15, 16, 17. years old, if you in your early 20s, you want to be king of the hill? Want to play cowboy? Yeah, so is that what you think it. is? I think in many cases, again, like the hilltop youth, I found them once, you know, these. snot-nosed BDIs, like kids with. their heads shaved, driving a stolen. Palestinian car on the Sabbath, tell me to get the fuck out or I'm. going to get beat. Like, it's fucking weird.

Where are the Israeli authorities? Sometimes absent, sometimes present. And even when they're present, they. can be quite absent. If I'm running Israel, I'm paying a very, I'm. getting close attention to these. people because they could be a. threat to me. Armed people who are increasingly. radical and nobody's kind. of controlling their behavior, they could form a militia and. overthrow my government. That would. be my thought if I were Netanyahu.

I'd be worried about them. I've thought about that quite a few. times. I mean, there's a few. things going on here, right? In the security establishment in. Israel, there are a lot. of voices who are very concerned. And this is just what you hear publicly. You can imagine that behind closed. doors, there's lot more talk. They are concerned. Bibi, in order for his coalition, also has to keep serving them. whatever they want. The real problem in the West Bank. is that you have these guys who are. armed and that you had Abraham.

on the other day. And he said that, I believe that at. some point or another, the. settlements will be collapsed. I would agree with him. But the question is not whether or. not they'll be collapsed, the question, is what is gonna have to happen. for that to happen? What will happen on the way. before you reach that point where. the settlements are collapsed? Will it be some sort of civil chaos? Will it a third Intifada? There's a lot of talk in Israel. about a third intifada. But my sense is that what happens. next is not something that follows. the sequence of intifadas, But.

you know, kind of like what happened. in Gaza, this shattering of the. status quo, I think there will come. a point where something analogous, logically speaking, happens. in the West Bank. Will it look like. Gaza? Not at all. But will it be equally as. cataclysmic, maybe? Quite possibly, that's my sense. But I mean, it's a different dynamic. in the West Bank. I mean isn't it? I mean it's first of all, it's. richer than Gaza ever was. It's more kind.

of established series of. towns. Which is why, oh, in terms of the. settlements you mean? No, no, no. The Palestinian population in. the west bank. I mean that's not, I don't know. It's just harder to imagine. something like that happening. Because I don't think, as I said, I. don't think what happens there is. going to look like, be like what. happened in Gaza, but I. think, if you permit me a few minutes, you. know, there's a reason why. October the 7th came from Gaza and. not from the West Bank.

I spent last summer. I was in the Janine refugee camp, if you've heard of it. The first question. Um, and I sat with the, who was then the leader of Islamic. Jihad, who's the Amir, the prince of Islamic jihad. And I sat out with a few other guys. from the various other factions. And what I understood was. that the resistance. in the West Bank, basically there's a thread going all. the way back to 48. You're exiled and you want to get. back and you wanna fight. And then there is serious.

amounts of terrorist attacks. And then eventually there's a. political process. And you'd assume that any resistance. movements or any kind of, you know, terrorist operation, whatever you want to call it, that. they would eventually want to yield. some kind of political outcome, but. Oslo eventually fails. You have the first intifada, you. have the second, and the second. intifade is basically a lashing. out, meaning the thread has. reached its end. And the West Bank at that point. was faced with, the factions. in the West bank were faced with.

sort of two options. Either we pause and take a breath. and figure out what the fuck we're. doing here, we're just going to keep. shooting aimlessly, just like shooting to make it look. like we're doing something. We're going to do military marches, we're going to act really cool. But the guys are just like hood. boys. They're just putting on headbands. and like with a Marlboro red in. their mouths and just shooting, usually not even to hit. The aim is usually just to die. The logic of the camps, the logic of. the resistance in the West Bank is. completely backwards, which means I. don't think there's to be like an.

October 7th in the West Bank. But when I was in these villages. that were getting attacked by the. settlers, there's one line. that kept coming up. And I'm talking about a line I was. hearing from your average. Palestinian farmer or peasant, which was, there. will come a day. There will come day when we. are pushed a little too far. And at that point, the question is, how many minutes does it take for a. bunch of people to run up to a hill. and maybe overwhelm the settlement?

An old man told me that we're going. to chew them like dogs. I would think that's coming. I mean, based on the behavior. You're describing it's quite. possible. I wouldn't discount it. What do you make the two most famous. in the US, the two most famous. cabinet ministers in the Netanyahu. government are Smotrash and Ben. Gavir. Are they powerful figures. in Israel? How are they regarded? What's, what's their motive strategy.

plan? I don't think that they're close to. as popular as they were. I think Bibi's popularity has. increased actually over the course. of the war, because Israelis have a. very short memory, especially. when it comes to warfare. But I don't really know what to tell. you about Smotrich and Bengvia, it's. not really my specialty. Um... It just seems unimaginably. radical from an American. If you think of Israel,

the post-67 Israel that most. Americans learned about, visited, all of a sudden you have. these guys, these two Ashkenazi guys. sound really, really radical. Or it seems like a departure from. anything Americans have ever. heard an Israeli government. officials say. I think what you're hearing is what. you often hear behind closed doors. all over Israel, what you can hear. at a cafe in Tel Aviv, meaning the notion of,

yeah, maybe they could go somewhere, the Palestinians, maybe just like. they could be gone. The question of, those are questions. that come up. You hear it regularly. These aren't like completely insane. conversations to hear. You can hear it from like a hippie. at a cafe in Tel Aviv smoking a. joint. What changed is that suddenly you. were hearing it more and more on TV. I remember I heard one news. commentator, news anchor, ask about. transfer,

and I was like this is a bit insane. Like imagine if someone on CNN came. on and sort of talking about. transferring another, an entire. other population who. aren't illegal. Right, people who were born there, have been there for thousands. of years. Maybe hundreds, maybe. thousands, I don't know. But it doesn't matter. They were. there when the Israelis came. Yeah. It doesn't a matter how long they've. been there for. So yeah. What about, I mean, it used to. be in my living memory, there was.

a significant population. of Israelis who had. totally different views. They're like, no, that's wrong. Human rights are a thing, you can't. do that. How big is that? Berg I think is the kind. of Israeli I remember from. 25 years ago, there were a bunch of. people like that. How many are left? I think the left is dead. The left is dead, the Israeli left. is dead. And the question as to why they died. is because they spent, I think, a.

bit too much time beating the horse. of Oslo dead. Oslo obviously failed. And the left was unwilling to. concede that fact, which meant that. for many, many years, I think unto. this day, the left never. re-evaluated. They never came with another. proposal or another plan or another. way of thinking about the conflict. They kept beating the horse of Oslo. dead. Meanwhile, the Israeli right. continues to churn out active. propositions. We're going to reform the judiciary.

We want to take the West Bank. Very concrete things that a. right-winger in Israel will tell. you what they want. A left winger in Israel will tell. you how they feel. And, uh... I think that's the long and short of. it. It's a good explanation. Do Israelis have a sense of what the. rest of the world thinks of Israel? Yeah, I think they have a sense the. question is is how deeply do they. think about the sense and how much.

merit are they willing to give? Do they care? I think deep down they care. No one likes to be hated. I don't think anyone likes to Be. hated But I. think the more you feel like you're. hated The more you want to. hate everyone else or just. completely discount them the more. You want to dig your heels in and. double down? That's interesting. Yeah, I mean, I feel like I'm often. attacked for hating Israel. I don't hate Israel at all. I feel sorry for Israel.

I think they're in trouble. They don't seem to agree, but I. think there are. But whatever my views. A lot of people hate Israel, like. around the world. I hear it a lot. When I travel, I feel like the. moderate one. And I think that's a big change. And I always wonder, do the Israelis. know that? Do they care? I think the Israelis are probably. the most hated people in the world. right now. That's my impression. Full stop. One of the greatest things I ever. did was not get an Israeli passport,

and I feel bad for friends who have. them. I would be scared. I'm going to be totally honest. I would get scared right now. I'm sometimes scared to even say I'm. Jewish. I'm lucky enough that I have. Arabic, and if I'm in Europe, I just. tell people I'm Palestinian, which some people might not like, but I think I put in the time to. warrant it. Sometimes I'm scared to say that I'm. a Jewish, and then I would. definitely be scared to have an. Israeli passport. I think that's totally fair. That's fair, and I'm not, I'm the. last person to whine about. anti-Semitism, but I think Israelis. literally hate it. So I agree with you completely.

I just, I just all, again, just once more I just want to be. clear. You don't think Israelis have the. sense that that's a bad thing and we. should be worried about it, or that we played any role in that. I think the Israelis, there are. Israelis who, you have. a small liberal population of. Israelis, many of whom I hear. talking about the. fact that they don't see a future. for themselves in the country. anymore. This is about two to three years in.

the making, even from the judicial. reform, I had a lot of people. telling me left-leaning, decent. Israelis who were like, I don't know if I can have more. kids here, or I don't want my. kids to be in the army, or don't. want my kids to have to deal with. whatever the consequences of. the judicial form and now this. entire war. The rest of the Israeli population I. think by and large are bent on, they've all Double down. Really? I think a lot of people. So B.B. Reflect.

Population he represents you think. I Don't think a lot of people have. Problems with anything that BB. represents. I think people have. problems with The. fact that he might have a corruption. case, which I think is right right. negligible. But you're never at dinner and. people say, man, I can't believe all. those kids who were killed in Gaza. That's bad. I'm sorry we did. I don't hear it a lot, but what you. can say, no, you might hear, it might be a symbolic gesture, like. a virtue signal,

but it's immediately followed with, you know, that's what you got to do. I mean, they came to kill us, or. they're anti-semites. Where do Israelis think. anti-Semitism comes from? I often hear it invoked, so-and-so's. an anti-Semite, you're an anti. Semite. How do they define it and where do. they think its root is? I think the root is age old as. far as Israelis are concerned. People hate us because people have. always hated Jews.

You hear this a lot in synagogues. also across North America. You have a message being pushed. constantly that people just hate us. And I think there are a lot of. people who just hate Jews. And there's a lot of people are. waiting for an excuse to hate Jews, but specifically when- Why do they. hate Jews? But the question is, is there a. distinction between those people and. Palestinians? Are the Palestinians fundamentally. anti-Semitic? You can spare me quotes from an imam. here or an imaam there, or the fact. that they conflate Jew and Israeli.

By and large, is. this a people who has premised. its existence on killing. Jews as Jews? And I do not think that that's the. case. Yeah, I wouldn't know. I mean, I, I would know. But I just think there are a lot of. anti-Semitic people and they hate. Jews. I agree with that. And I think it's wrong. That's what I think. But I also think it worth that. Like, what is that? Is it a. spiritual thing?

I mean we say, well, it's always. existed. I believe that. But what's its, I mean what's it's. cause? And I've never heard one person ask. that question. And I think I. believe in asking. Or trying to understand the. cause of everything. You can't often, but it's. always worth doing. I wanted to know why Al-Qaeda. attacked the US on 9-11. I thought it was horrible. I had a friend killed, but I still. wanna know why. And I never heard anybody ask that.

question. You haven't heard anyone ask about. the the sort of like the bottom. root of antisemite. Not one time, other than to say, and by the way, I'd be willing to. believe that it's. spiritual in nature. What does spiritual mean? That there's a. belief among Jews. and some. Christians that Jews are. distinct among peoples because. God made them distinct and that.

there is a spiritual reaction. That is a religious belief that some. people have, Many people have. And I'd be willing to believe, I. don't know if it's true, that this. is like a reaction against that from. evil. So that's one explanation, but I. never even hear anybody ask the. question. Like what I hear instead. is people say, it's just, it's always been there, it always will be there. What does that mean? I guess that's what I'm asking.

Within the European context, and. look, I'm not an expert on. anti-Semitism, within the European context you have. a people who are also forced into. the margins of society. They're easily scapegoated. They also maintain a certain level. of distinction from the rest of. society and those are people that. are very easy to hate, but I can't give you an. historiography of. anti-semitism. I can tell you why I think it's on. the rise right now. Why is it on the. rise right now? We have a bit of an issue, right?

I mean, you have Israel doing what. Israel does, it's getting record. amounts of attention. There's record amounts of sympathy. with the Palestinian cause. I mean there are many people, if you. would have asked them 20, 30, 40. years ago, if they understood what. actually was the fate of the. Palestinian people, they wouldn't. have understood, they wouldn'd have. known. You know, there's a famous quote by. Ben-Gurion, who. following 48, you. know, there were 600, some 600. villages that were destroyed. And I remember there's. a somewhere in the archives, there's.

quote which says, people are. soon going to come visit this. country and we don't. want them to see, have superfluous thoughts. To use the word superfluos, meaning. you got to clean up the mess, either. like destroy them or plant trees, put parks in their place, which is. why you have many parks all over. Israel. And people didn't really understand. I didn't know that. How did I not know that? So parks you've seen us are often on. the physical spot of.

a former Palestinian village. In many cases, yes, in many cases yes, which is. also bound up with the JNF, the. Jewish National Fund. And so I remember hearing from. someone in Toronto that I think the. government was going to start. sanctioning the J&F. and people were really up in arms. about this. And I said, sort of, the end of the day, you have to. decide what your relationship with. Israel is. You can't, it's hard to have. It's hard to expect people from.

without to understand why, at a. synagogue, you also have an Israeli. flag there if you don't also wanna. bear the brunt of. what's happening in Israel, take. some responsibility. And I'm saying, from without, you can't expect people to. understand that. I think there's a sense within the. Jewish American community. specifically, but also in Israel. People expect everyone else to. understand them from within. It's why it should be very obvious. Why Israelis believe it should be. obvious what we're doing. All this should be obvious.

The fact that you're asking. questions is itself potentially an. indication that you. are against us, that you just want. our demise. When I ask people questions in. Israel, the first thing is like, why. are you asking? If I want to interview someone as a. journalist in Israel, I have to be. very careful with the language I. use. If I use the word West Bank, to the. Judean Samaria. Within a certain demographic or act. Seriously, I tend to say we. and not you because if I say you.

they're like, what do you mean you I. thought we're all in this together. No, I'm not an Israeli citizen. Even that is a bit sensitive. You're describing narcissism. the belief that other people should. just understand what I'm feeling. In a health, a healthy person. understands that each one of us. is sort of locked away in our own. private traumas. And that's why we. communicate. And I need to. understand you. It's very important. to understand to you. And I want you to understand me, but. it's not natural, right? That's the basis of a.

relationship. It's an isolated and solipsistic. society. Solipsistic is a better. word, that's exactly right. In many ways, yeah. There's something, in many cases, I. find this thing a bit delusional. about the mentality. It's just the fact that, for. example, Arabic isn't spoken in the. country. It used to be. I mean, those were because they were. Arab Jews. Who came from Arabic countries. But I think there were also. Ashkenazi Jews who spoke Arabic. I think that was more common. I think, that was my impression.

Whole lot. Maybe if they were there, for example, before the. establishment of the state. But as of the establishment to the. state, you didn't have people really. learning Arabic. The changes that have taken place, or maybe it's just a change in my. perception, but I just remember a. country that was much more. open to the world, but a lot has. happened in that time. By the way, I should ask you, since you live there in Israel, how much damage has been done during. this war? We get no sense of it at. all, or I don't trust anything I see. on the internet, but do you get a.

sense it's a country at war there. is rubble on. the street in Tel. No, no. In fact, I think the last round. during June, for example, you know, I'm based in Jaffa at the moment. There are massive strikes in a. place called Bat Yam, just south of. Jaffas, where you saw I think. there's a three block radius of. damage. Look, you do have damage, relative mistakes, minimal damage within its role right. now. Does life seem.

normal-ish? Yeah. Ish. Really? The Jews like the ish. Yes, it's true. I'm pro-ish myself. So it doesn't feel like a country. under siege? Under siege? Yeah, the war is being fought about. 2000 kilometers away. Correct. Yeah, certainly not besieged. Is there a sense that there's a. physical risk? Do people you know feel like, wow, we could get hammered by. missiles, drones?

No, I don't think there's like an. apocalyptic sense, but there is a sense like damage can. be done. These are ballistic. missiles. People can die. But if you're smart, if you take the. necessary steps, if you go down to. your shelter, you're probably. going to be fine. Like a 99% chance. that you will be just fine. Do you talk to people who have a. sense of how this will be resolved? Do people expect it to end soon, the. war with Iran? I don't think so.

I think people want it to. go on. I think that people want the. job done, but what's a bit strange. to me, what's ironic here is that in. America, it strikes. me, the perception is more. zero-sum. In America, I think there's the. sense that if we went through all. this and the regime doesn't fall, then this was for naught. We wasted our time. We jeopardized our, for the GOP, we. jeopardized, our base or whatever. else. You're a better expert in this. than I am. Within Israel though, it's not a. zero-sum game.

If Israel, if this. war ends because Trump decides it. has to end because of internal. pressure, economic pressure, and the regime hasn't fallen, Bibi is none the worse for it. It's not the ideal outcome, it's the best possible outcome, but it's something he can work with. It's a good enough show. It's what you call in Hebrew an. image of victory. It's the phrase that Netanyahu has. been using since the beginning of. the war, an image of. victory.

Part of our problem in the US may be. that we take our own rhetoric more. seriously or perhaps too seriously. And so in order to justify this and. the previous. exchange in June, we. had to endure like. weeks of hearing that we were all. about to be killed by Iran, by this. regime, which some. people didn't believe, including me, but some people did believe and. we have a whole TV channel devoted. to telling Americans their single. biggest risk. Is Iran, so if that regime is. still there, it's kind of hard to.

walk down from that, if you see what. I mean. I think in. America, the big problem is. that Americans are fundamentally. divorced from history. They forget that they're actually. inside of history. That's for sure. I think that's a, for a. non-American, that's perceptive. observation. And the Jews think that history's. over. Yeah, I think Israel believes that. sort of, you know, he got back to. the land, we have our state, and. it's kind of done now. History's over.

I think that's the distinction. between Israel and America. America forgets that they're at the. center of history, and the Israelis. believe that they are enjoying the. aftermath of history as if there. can't be another exile, as if they can't be another. catastrophe. And that's short-sightedness. Where does, um, among... Is there any discussion of like. restoring the third temple that. would seem obvious at least from my. reading of No,

the torah. No, that's. not even know. But I personally think if you're. going to ask me, I personally think. it would be great to build a third. temple just on like another hill. I don't think you can do it on. another hill. I bet you could get a. rabbinical precedent. You could definitely pay some guy. off to let you. If you're gonna have a third temple, I'm strongly in favor of putting it. on another hill, just because then. you avoid global religion. Yeah, but it would also be a shame. to come back to the homeland after. 3,000 years and leave potentially. without having built something,

you know, sweet. Is there any effort. to do that that you know of? No, but there are a lot of people. recently, it's funny, there's, you. know, the Messiah patches that a lot. Israeli soldiers have. I do, yes. There's now on the back of cars, there are these stickers now that. are sort of like the image, it looks. like a Greek or like a Roman temple, but it's a temple image. Oh, I've seen it. Oh, you've seen the sticker. Yes, I have. So, that's blown up as of the last. year or two, do I think it will. actually happen? But before the last year or two,

or let's just say before October. 7th, there. was none of that. You had guys trying to like secret. in like red heifers every now. and again. They're a serious minority in the. country. And as Avra mentioned, you had. people, there were attempts several. times to- Five, he said. Five. I didn't know that. Yeah. I knew about one. I didn't know about five. But again, I think this is not, there's no state level. or institutional policy that's. working towards the construction of.

a third temple. I mean, look at the buildings in Tel. Aviv. I don't think the Israelis right now. are in a position to build a big, beautiful temple. The best buildings. in Tel Aviv were built by Arabs. in the Ottoman era. I knew that. I knew that. There's been a, I think Israel's done, you know, it. was an amazing society in some ways. They built a lot considering how. young it is. Architecture has not been on the top. of the, of the achievement list, I would say. That's why you put the. city beside the sea. Yeah. No, it's it, but it's still. not. It's, yeah.

So I share, I share your view of the local. architecture. It is fascinating. So how has the country, just big. picture, How has it changed so in. there? Seven and a half years you. were there before, two and a Half since. Yeah. October 7th, like what changes. have you noticed in people's. attitudes? You know, there was, at. the height of the war, I went to. buy a new laptop from a. kid. He was like 18, 19 years old.

And it turned out that he's a soldier, he works with the Navy. So he's like a young thing, he looks. very, very young. I went and we started talking and. I explained that I'm a journalist, that I do some work. And he said, listen, after October. the 7th, we can't trust. the Arabs. I said really like. I was like, I have a question, like, where do you travel within Israel? And he goes, you know, back in the. day, my father would go to a place. called Kalkili, which is on the. other side of the Green Line. And he says, but we, with the. family, would go a place Kfar.

Qasim, which is the Israeli side of. Green Line, we're like right snug on. the line. And he said, but ever since the war, I stopped going to Kfar Kasim. And I was, like do you go to another. place called Tira, which was even. closer to Tel Aviv? And he's like, no, I won't. risk it. I don't even like going to. Jaffa. And I told him, I said. like... What's going to be left to you if. you keep operating this way? Like you're king of the hill as. it were, you're the landlord, but. you're scared. It's like owning a. house and being scared to walk into.

four out of the five rooms in the. house. It's not a way to live, it's not the. way to be a homeowner, right? You have this thing, Ben-Yver's big. platform when he was running for. elections was we're going to the. landlords now. In Hebrew, Balea bite. the landlords actually. How loudly he said that? Yeah, that was a platform. There were signs in the West Bank. about that. We're the landlords now. Yeah, we're going to be the. landlords. And the problem in Israel is.

that, especially in the west bank, is that there's a lot focus on. lording over the land and. not really dwell. Ben Gavir's. election slogan was we're going to. be the landlords. We're dealing with lack of. self-awareness now. Like that out loud. Quite the opposite. He was very, very aware. It was very strategic and very. tactical. Especially within the settlement. population, of course. You're in a place where you don't. feel like you're really the Lord. You really don't, except for the. gun, you don't really feel like I'm.

the king of the hill. There's a guy who's saying, I'm. going to make you king. I'm going to. put the crown on your head. It's tempting, especially to like. naive, young, potentially troubled. youth who are running around the. hilltops. How long can Israel go with. all this territory that's. not part of their country, but that. they control? Like what? With Gaza and the West Bank and now. Southern Lebanon and parts of. Syria, like, does that just. go on forever?

Do people envision a time where the. official borders of Israel expand. and like, this is our country, like? I mean, look, if Israel can't manage. Gaza, I don't think they can manage. South Lebanon. I don't think that what's happening. in South Lebanon is going to be. permanent. There might be a post or two on the. border. You could potentially expect. that. Are they going to take a large. swath of Lebanese territory? No, but what they will do is render. them uninhabitable, which is a kind of way of doing. not this, but not that. How do you do that?

It's the art of indecision, which. Bibi's art. You don't occupy. it, but you leave it unoccupiable. Unoccupiable because it's just. there's nothing there. Well, that's what the Lebanese. border is right now. In many cases, not across the border, but there are. many spots on the border in which. everything is completely razed. Those were also houses used in many. cases by Hezbollah. So like, I kind of get that. In Syria as well. Like, I don't think that's a. permanent decision. I think it's. leverage that could potentially be. used against Jolani to come to some. sort of agreement, which I think. will eventually come.

Not a peace deal, but something, an. understanding. Jalani being the new head of Syria. Exactly. Who a lot of people assumed was. installed there with the agreement. of Israel, I assume that. I still think it, but now they're. against him? What is the truth there? Who said they're again him? I don't know. I've heard recently. that the Israelis are troubled with. Johnny. I don't t know if that's. true or not. I don't know if they're, I mean, he's moved troops toward the. Lebanese border, and there are.

rumors that he would be willing to. fight Hezbollah. There's a common enemy. I think the Israelis fear. Jolani long-term, and they also used to have a very. good understanding with Assad. The problem is that Assad was also. embedded with Iran and Hezballah, so. there's a bit of a problem. I don't think the Israeli's ever had. a problem with Assad, I think, as. far as I know, before the civil war, there were also secret talks going. on. The Israelis were also preparing. to make some kind of agreement with. Assad. In the short term, I think Jolani. and the Israelis can work together. relatively well because it'll.

take Joliani a very long time. until he will be able to build. or, as it were, cement the. ground beneath him. Yes. He can't start problems with Israel. right now, but in 20, 30 years he might be able. to. What's the typical Israeli. view of the United States? From got it right. Like stupid Americans, stupid. They sometimes want to live like. you.

You know, I think they wanted they. want to speak English. They want certain, some. kind of American lifestyle. But they don't want to be they think. you're naive. Is there affection or mostly. contempt? A lot of affection. From what I hear, a lot of. infection. I mean, definitely over the last. year or two, I think this has a lot. to do with Bibi. There has been a kind of retic of. like, who's the. United States to tell us what to do? They shouldn't be telling us what.

do. And Israelis get frustrated when. there's talk of that, like Bibi's. going to bend to Trump. Or that America says, like Biden. says, you can't do this. This is the red line. I think there's a deep frustration. inside of Israel because they want. to have their cake and eat it. They want the money, but also total. attitude. They want support, but I. think they want American knowledge. that we're, in a way, doing your. bidding. I think a lot of Israelis. believe that we're doing your. bidding. We're doing something good. for you. Doing the hard work that you won't. do.

They feel that way. I can speak for the whole country. But I mean, you hear that. I hear that, yeah. What about Trump? What's the view of Trump? Yeah, a lot of Israelis love Trump. Again, I'm speaking from my. experience. What do they like about him? They like that he's willing to take. the gloves off for once. I think they saw Biden as a pussy. Yeah. As a feckless pussy who wasn't. willing to make a decision, wasn't. able to do it. For example, Bibi is willing.

to do, even though Bibi was also a. pussy for a very long time. And so, yeah, I think it's refreshing. to them. And I think that they don't. see. Look, as Avram also said, Israelis don't have a very good. understanding of what happens on the. American interior, of American. culture. Most Israelis do not speak English. I think this is like a delusion. people have because they go to Tel. Aviv and people speak English. outside of Tel Avive, there's not a. whole lot of English being spoken. And so there is. a sense in which all they see.

Trump as is what he. has done for for the fact that he. would be more willing to help us. And that's what matters. If you're an Israeli, you care about. Israel just like you. Aren't American and care about. America. That's right. That's always been my favorite thing. about Israel is they're. nationalists. What's the view of the Gulf States? You have to be more specific. What do they think of Dubai. and Abu Dhabi UAE? They love the UAE. They love the UAE.

The UAE also loves them, but I don't. think the government is a big fan. of Israel. I've heard from people, for example, that like Emirati diplomats are. a bit shocked when they come to. Israel. And they're also, in some. cases, mistreated at the airports. I think they find Israeli society. a bit shocking. in its rudeness at times. I think, they're not given the kind. of respect that they're accustomed. to having within Gulf countries that. have pretty, you know. Standard royal hierarchies and.

in different manners. Those are elaborately polite. societies with all kinds. of rituals. around manners. Yeah, no, I think they are shocked. Yeah, so Israelis love the UAE, and there are very, very close. relations between the UAE and. Israel. What do they think of the sound? I couldn't really tell you, I think. a lot of Israelis... I mean, they house Hamas as. far as a lot of Israelis are.

concerned. I don't hear people saying that. Qatar as a country is our enemy. I don't think Israelis think a whole. lot about Qatar. Yeah, I believe that. I just don't think they think about. them a lot. What do they think, Sue, Israel has. a lot of high profile defenders in. the United States? Are they well. known in Israel? Well, I don't know, Ben Shapiro. or... No. No. Unknown. Mark Levin. No one's ever heard of them. I'm sure there's many people have. heard of them are there do you have.

like the average rarely average. Israeli listening to Mark Levine or. Ben Shapiro? Absolutely not. because also Ben Shapira was. speaking in the name of if anything. American Jewry, right? His conversation is maybe about. Israel, but it's between Western. Jews or English-speaking Jews. It doesn't really impinge upon the. Israelis. To Israelis, what's their view of. American Jews specifically? I don't know if I could give. you that in a sentence or two. There's all kinds of different.

relationships. I'm avoiding falling into certain. kinds of banalities or stereotypes. Totally. Totally, I just of course. Well, you can't generalize actually. about most cats, but I'd say if. there's like an overwhelming. And they're also mixed feelings. They're mixed feelings, I have. issues with American Jews, but. they're also my people. And this is, I think, the. overarching sentiment. At the end of the day, there are. many disagreements between the two. peoples, but there are also a single. people. It's just like you have disagreements. with your family, I'm sure, but.

they're still your family. And that's by and large, if I had to sum it up, that's the. dynamic. But there's certainly a generational. break right now. I think the younger generation of. liberal Jews, I think they're beginning to. see, and this isn't the majority of. Jews right now. The majority of younger generation. Jews I think are still following in. the footsteps of their parents, but. there is a significant population. of young Jews who I think, are. looking at Israel and saying, we don't like what you're doing and.

it doesn't necessarily matter that. your family. What changed that view, do you. think, Gaza? Yeah. And the fact that it's also. unpopular, if you're a liberal Jew. in a liberal circle, you don't want. to be the guy who's liberal on every. single point, but stops at. Gaza. It's socially awkward. In many cases, it's a social. decision. I don't think it's. major theoretical. Right, this is not a question of. principle, it's just like it's. becoming unacceptable to be pro- It. could be both, but also, you know.

in America are a big part of. sociality or social life. They certainly are. That's true for any society, I. think. Especially America. You think so? Yeah. I think people. like touting their morals quite. a bit in America. Really? Yeah. I've never sat with an Arab and he. tells me like, you know, I believe. in this and I believe that. And I think this is really wrong. I don't hear that. On the subway in Toronto, you can. hear people talking through each.

other about their various moral. beliefs that they've never had to. act upon in their lives. That is, that is a very wise. observation. I've never sat with an Arab and he's. like, I think this is wrong. Getting in here. Yeah, that's a bit. Like, I'm sure the Arabs have moral. opinions. Of course they do. Of course, they do, it's not that they. don't have standards, but they're. not throwing them at you at dinner. They don't, but they're just not the. foundations of their identity. Well, there is a certain. self-righteousness in the West. That's not necessarily the same as. righteousness. I mean, it's just-.

Yeah, definitely. There's a posturing that goes. on. Here's my last question. How do you think, and it's. impossible to know, but like in five. years, what does the landscape look. like is in the Middle East? Is the United States still as. closely lad with Israel as it is. today? Is Lebanon-. territorially intact? Is Israel safer? Have we gotten the seven front war. down to two fronts, say, or no. fronts? Is Bibi still in power? Like what current trends continue?

What does it look like? Bibi very well could be in power in. five years. I think he'll probably. get elected in October. Yeah, I think it's highly. likely that he'll get re-elected. And I think everything that's. happening right now is in some way. or another engineered for. that to happen. Again, as we said, the personal. ambitions of Bibi happen to align. with some of the strategic ambitions. of the state. And if you can just modulate that, then it's a perfect recipe to win.

elections. In terms of Lebanon, do I think the. Israelis will be highly active deep. inside Lebanon? No. And I think a lot of these, Bibi doesn't want a. ton of war. I think after Bibi gets. into, if he gets re-elected, I think you'll see Lebanon sort of. come to a close. Even Iran could come to close. He'll wanna just sort of. like bring in a new status quo that. will be useful to him. And when he has to turn up the heat, he'll turn up to heat.

Do you think, again, purely speculative, but if Donald. Trump went to. BB tomorrow and said, we're shutting this down with Iran, it's terrible for markets, it is. terrible for me, my. political party, could he make BB stop? I think he probably could, but Bibi would probably want to find. a kind of middle ground, meaning. they had a ceasefire in Lebanon, but there were still Israeli strikes.

in Lebanon on an almost. daily basis. Yeah. I think you could call that. the Israeli ceasefire. Yeah. In Hebrew, you call it the war. between the wars. It's so funny when, you know, growing up here, we were taught that. Israel had wars in. 48, 56, 67, 73, 82, and then. the Intifadas. That's the official history of it, right? And then you get older and. you realize, nah, it was kind of. a war continuously.

I don't know if I'd call it a war, but there is fighting or. there are strikes, like there's. activity. I don't know if i'd call a. war. But I do think you could potentially. see a situation and it depends on. the conditions of. the end of the war, if there's. an agreement, what the stakes are. and the stakeholders. But there could be a situation, I. can envisage a situation in which. Israel, for example, is still. striking not necessarily on a daily. basis, but that they operate in. the of Tehran? That they strike?

As needed. And there's still a lot to be seen. I mean, I think there. should be. There's probably going to be some. attempt to activate people, to try to get protestored up again. I wouldn't be entirely surprised. In Iran. Yeah, I find it hard to believe that. the Israelis put all this together. without the hope or without some. expectation that when things quiet. down, things. internally... Will begin to sort of.

move again. I don't know if you can expect. people to go out and protest while. there are strikes. The strikes should, I think they. would expect, lay the groundwork for. something to happen. Do you have any idea how the. Israeli government winds up with so. many agents of influence and. just agents in all these. hostile countries? How many there's so many people in. Iran working for Israel? Same in Syria, same in Lebanon. Like how do they do that?

People are easy to buy. People are easy to buy. Apparently they are. I mean, I like. to say that the best spies in the. Arab world all work for the Mossad. Apparently they do. That's why they. don't have good intelligence. agencies. How do they do that? I mean, it's just remarkable. The United States pulls that off? They could if they wanted to. I think the CIA is probably just. lazy. The stakes aren't as high in many. cases. You find someone's weakness.

We are homosexual. We only do that in the Senate here. We haven't bothered to do it in. Iran, I guess. That day might come. You never know. All right, thank you very much. That was interesting as hell. Thanks for having me. Appreciate it.