Glenn Greenwald: Julian Assange, Ed Snowden, and Everything You Need to Know about Brazil

You arrive at the same conclusions I. do 100% of the time. At least on Twitter. It's an instinct. It's like, and like I said, I. think you begin with like a certain. kind of like inclination, right, view of. who's running the country and how. you feel about them and why you hate. them. And then, like everything. else, just kind of follows from. follows. Yeah. And it may even be deeper than. that. It's like, what's important to. you? Loyalty, honesty. Children, dogs. Totally. Yeah. You like what you get. in life too? Yeah. I'm like, we're roughly the same.

age. You're obviously, like a lot. older, but in general, like, we're. the same. Older? I think I'm like a year older. You were you. I'm 1967. Okay. So you're two years older than. me. Okay. Congratulations. on your robust youth. Yeah. It's interesting, I think. about, lies the way. I do about alcohol. I just don't want it in me at all. Yeah. I think, yeah. Well, because you end up deluding. yourself, which is one of the first. times you can consciously, like, deceive other people for whatever. goal. And you can tell yourself it's.

justified. And maybe sometimes it. even is. But the worst thing is to delude. yourself, like to deceive yourself. There's nothing that you do not. know it. I mean, I've repeated so. many lies in my life knowingly. Yeah, that I just don't want to. do that again. By the way, thank you for setting up. that Snowden meeting. Oh, I knew you guys were going to. allow me to, but I was actually. hoping he would change his mind and. do an interview. I think it was a. good step to doing. Right now is. Yeah. And even if I never. interview him on camera, I was just. grateful to meet him.

But. So you are. You're the reason that we. know any of this information. You were the guy who broke the. story. Yeah. It did feel to me like Snowden was. it was more important for the U.S. government to capture it and kill. Ed Snowden, an American citizen, then, like any foreign terror. It was the biggest leak. of top secret documents from the. U.S. security state, by far. He and he, like, planned it. So meticulous. I mean, he your time. at the NSA was supposed to be, like, our leading intelligence agency.

He was in it, sealing all their. stuff over months, figuring. out how not to get caught. He walked out with it. He went to Hong Kong with it, having they have no idea any of that. happened, and he was just waiting. for us to come and then pass it all. to us and like, put it in all secret. places. Like the only thing he cared. about was getting that out before he. ended up, you know, imprisoned or. killed or whatever. He was so. desperate for us to do it. I mean, I really think it's. for the reasons he said. Like, he really felt. betrayed. You know, he went to enlist in the.

Iraq War. He he enlisted in the Army. He wanted to go fight in Iraq and. obviously do that because you. believe the mythology 100% country. And the more he saw, the more he realized it was, you know, a fraud. And it makes you, like, feel. betrayed. Like epically betrayed, like people who want to go fight in. wars. All of obviously. have like a code of ethics already. right there saying like a burden to. us, my, my life for something that. is greater than myself. And then when you realize that, like. what you're told is greater than. yourself is in fact a total lie,

that you're fighting for completely. different reasons, you feel. betrayed. And then the question is. like, what is really bigger than. myself? And he like I said, he thought. he was going to be killed or spend. the rest of his life in prison. Like, if I had to bet we I, we. weren't even discussing the. possibility that he wouldn't end up. free. It was inconceivable. That was the darkness that hung over. this whole thing the whole time we. were doing it, I was I was very. excited about the story. We were plotting. We were. strategizing like it was the. But the whole time I felt this like. sadness that this person had come to. like, admire and respect so much.

I was never going to see again who's. going to end up in prison for the. rest of his life? That was that. wasn't like a possibility. It was like almost inevitable. And he knew that. Yeah. Of course. Yeah. I mean, like, obviously you. don't if you're at all ethical, like. not just journalists person, you. don't use somebody as a source. without making sure they understand. the risks they're taking and the. likely consequences. But he you know, I remember the. first conversation I had when I. started talking about it, he was. like, oh, well versed in the. Espionage Act. And like every single law that could. be used against him, he fully. understood he was sacrificing his.

whole life. He had to hide it from his. girlfriend, who he. wanted to marry. That was like he. was totally were totally in love. But he couldn't have her, would know. anything because she would have them. in complicit. And he was concerned. she'd be vulnerable, you know, they. would go after her charging their. their crimes to get at him. So we had to keep it all from her. He just disappeared. He was like, I need to go on a trip. related to business. So, I mean, you're describing, like, one of the most ethical people I've. ever met, one of the most principled. people ever. Totally. It's kind of revealing. that he's considered.

Like the criminal. Number one. Criminal. Yeah, because he actually. exposed real crimes. And the that's what always happens. is the people who expose the crimes. I mean, like Daniel Ellsberg had. documents showing that the US. government was telling American. citizens they knew they were going. to win the war at exactly the same. time. Internally, they said they. knew they could never win the war in. Vietnam. And like many other eyes, too, it was like, you know, Daniel. Ellsberg worked at the highest. levels of the government forever. I mean, he got a PhD in nuclear, policy and then, you know, was at. the at the Rand Corporation with.

some of the most secret access ever. And then he just couldn't believe. what he was seeing, like, inside. these documents, comparing them to. the public statements. And he was like, how am I going to. live with myself for the rest of my. life if I don't, you know, make this known? And he exactly the same thing. But of course, at the time he was. completely vilified as a traitor, a. Russian agent. Thing, a hater of America. Yeah. I mean, everybody, like, who wasn't on the left hated Daniel. Ellsberg. And the only reason he. didn't spend the rest of his life in. prison is because of the misconduct. of breaking. They broke into a. psychoanalyst office to try and.

discover his psychosexual secrets, to discredit him. For that was like that whole CIA. group that did the Watergate break. And they also broke into his. psychoanalyst office and. tried to steal those files. And then when they couldn't, they. wanted to break into the psychoanalysts. home. And then that was like the one thing. they didn't get permission for. But when that was discovered, the. judge threw the case out solely. because of government misconduct. Had they not, he would have. absolutely been convict. But he had the he had the support. effectively of the American media. I mean, Daniel well. He picked because he he commandeered. them. That's like the first thing I.

did with Snowden was I went. out, we went to every major media. outlet that we wanted to work with. in order to get them on our side, because if we didn't, we would have. just been to like outsiders. Who were they were reporters, like, not journalists. They tried to do. that Michael Scott piece reported on. them trying to assassinate Snowden, but also create theories to arrest. myself and or calling us information. brokers and like A&R and. like the whole time, James Clapper. would always when he ever referred. to us, he would never call us. journalists. He would always call us. Snowden's like, 8 or 10 a betters or Snowden's.

coconspirators because they were. trying to create a theory that they. could arrest us that way and go. back. That's why, in other words, I. traveled for a year. They were being. Super threatening. You know, I had the best lawyers. The Guardian, the conjugate. Eric Holder on the phone. You work with him, you know, those. type of lawyers. And they were like, if he comes back. to New York, it becomes back to the. U.S.. Can you guarantee that he. won't be arrested upon arrival? And they're like, right now we. can't. So that's why you live out of the. country? Well, no, I mean, I have lived in. Brazil already, but I was always. going back to the U.S.

but for a year I couldn't travel. outside Brazil. The Brazilian government said, we. will always protect you, because I. did a lot of reporting on how the. NSA was spying on Brazil. So in Brazil, like the reporting. was considered heroic. And they were like, we'll never turn. you over, but we can't guarantee. your protection if you leave Brazil. So I stayed in Brazil for. It's just a funny year. The Guardian. was one of the places that ran. that this data, this information. And Wikileaks, they partnered with. Wikileaks as. Well. But the. Do you think the Guardian would run. something like that now? Nope. Zero chance.

Why? I mean, they, you know, they got. taken over by completely like the. editor at the time was like one of. those old school British editors. Yes. And now it's run by this woman. who's like, best friends with the. editor in chief of the the who. was the editor for The Intercept, who degraded it into a Partizan. outlet. And they're both this, like, standard liberal white. woman. And they're all into the whole, like, everything all that matters is. Trump. They have no animosity. toward the security state agencies. any longer because they perceive. them correctly as their political. allies, and there's no.

chance that they would have. You know, run a story like that. So they're just totally crushed. You ever hear any left liberals ever. any more talking about the evils of. the CIA, the FBI, the NSA, the. US security say never, never, ever. Maybe Homeland Security for being. too aggressive with immigrants. But other than that, like. the that discourse is gone. If you talk about the CIA and FBI. now people that gets. coded as like Trump, Trumpism. and like warning about deep state,

the deep state, like they mock. the idea that there's a deep state. that's like been fundamental to left. wing politics for as long as I can. remember. And now it reads as like, you know, Trumpian right wing. It's north, you know, any country. run by its Intel in law enforcement. agencies, it's an authoritarian. country. It's not a democratic. country. They're they were built to be. outside of the democratic system. There's no they're built to be a. secret agency within the government. that is immune to democratic. accountability. And the amazing thing is, when they.

had those hearings, like after the. Twitter files and all of that, every single Democrat. stood up and said, like what? Matt Taibbi went testify. They were lecturing him, saying, like, have you ever considered the. fact that the people at the CIA and. the FBI and our security. state agencies are doing this to. protect us, not to. harm us? Can you imagine, like and like even. the the like AOC same. thing, like even the left wing. sectors of the Democratic Party. There's no space to criticize. Are there any are there any.

left liberals holding. off. Started by the way or no. Yeah yeah yeah. Oh we're on, we're on. Yeah I think we're on like users. Yeah okay I don't know. But I'm fine. Yeah. You know what an Irish exit. is, right? What is the easy way? This is how we chat. So I, I was like, okay, we're just. waiting until. But yeah I the Irish accent. I'm not Irish for the record, but is. when you sort of leave without. saying anything. This is the Irish. entrance. We should just start with. I'm sorry. Exactly, exactly. Just sit down and start with no,

no formal start. Yeah, but I mean that to me, you. know, because it's always so bizarre. to me that, you know, for a long. time I was considered, you know, I go left wing kind of. leading journalist and. finger. And then at some point, like with the emergence of Trump, I had this huge breach with the left. and the my I started becoming. people on the right. I think that's now changed a little. bit more since October 7th and the. like, but I haven't. changed a single one of my views. I think the primary, the.

two primary views that I hold. that used to be identified with the. left are now identified with the. right is free speech. Yes, which began as a left wing. movement. I mean, the free speech. movement began at Berkeley. Some of the most important First. Amendment free speech precedents. were written by the the most left. wing journalist, and it was the left. wing Jewish lawyers at the ACLU. who are fighting for the most. absolutist versions of free speech. and now free speech codes as a. fascist value. And then the second is this critical. scrutiny and focus that I've always. had on the CIA, the FBI, the NSA,

and that two now codes as. right wing. And the reason for that. is so disturbing. It's because those agencies. became among the leading, enemies of the Trump campaign and. then the Trump presidency. That's where Russiagate came from, was from the bowels of the CIA, FBI, they were anonymously leaking every. day. The New York Times and the. Washington Post, all kinds of. information that turned out to be. false, but that was designed to. sabotage Trump's campaign in the. presidency. And Democrats looked at. that and said, why would we have any. problem with these agencies? They're on our side and they are on. that side.

And this inversion. of politics. And and then you. add things like neocons almost. entirely migrating to the Democratic. Party. Whereas when I started. talking about politics in 2005, neocons were being talked about as. bloodthirsty variant. types, you know, Nazis. And like, that's how a lot, liberals talked about them. And now, like the most influential. pundits in liberal politics are like. Bill Kristol and David Frum and. Nicole Wallace and all those Bush, Liz Cheney, Liz Cheney was. hero of the Year.

by Mother Jones in 2022. Mother Jones was, you know, like a. hardcore leftist radical. who, like, broke the law. I mean, the idea that 100. years from now, a newspaper named. after her would be naming Liz Cheney. as Hero of the year. Like when people say, like, why have. you changed? What have you changed? Like you're the one naming Liz. Cheney Hero of the year? I hate the Cheney's as much as I. hated them 20 years ago, and this inversion of politics is. so radical and so visible.

and and so transparent. and so abrupt. But it's changed almost everything. It does seem like maybe. a lot of the kind of ACLU. positions which, for the record, I always liked. I always like Nat Hentoff. Yeah. For example. Wonderful man. But, it seems. like maybe a lot of it wasn't. sincere. And it was as soon as. you know, that the ACLU kind of took. power over American society, then it was like, now we have. something to protect. Now we're not on the side of the.

underdog. Well, it's. I think there I think there was. authenticity to the ACLU in the. sense that you. No, wait. I remember this from childhood. It was like one of the most influential. events for me, even though I was. only ten at the time when it. happened. I just became like very. interested in it and started reading. lot more about it as a teenager. in 1978, which was when the American. Nazi Party, which was, you know, like a band of like 30 losers. and misfits, but they, like, were. walking around in Nazi. Yeah, costumes and stuff. They applied for a parade permit in.

Skokie, Illinois. North shore, Chicago, overwhelmingly. Jewish suburb. Not just overwhelming to a suburb, but particularly known for having a. huge population of Holocaust. survivors. People were in actual. camps. So imagine the trauma for. people like that to see people. in actual Nazi uniforms marching. through their town. People, a. swastika is on their, you know, armband. Pretty heavy. Yeah, yeah. And, they had their permit rejected. on the grounds that it was a threat. to public safety or whatever. But obviously it was politically,

ideologically driven because the. people of Skokie hated the ideology. of the Nazi Nazi Party, for obvious. reasons. And the ACLU, despite being composed almost. entirely of leftist Jewish lawyers. and having donors that were. overwhelmingly leftist. Jews who were donating to the ACLU, in part because they were also. defending the civil liberties of. communists in the 50s and 60s. You know, communists were barred. from becoming lawyers and being. admitted to the bar because their. ideology was considered to prove. poor character and fitness and the.

like. And a lot of those precedents. came out of, you know, the idea. that you can suppress communist. speech. And the ACLU fought to. preserve those, free. speech rights. And then they did the. same for the American Nazi Party. That position that. they took and ultimately prevailed. on was something. that destroyed the lives of almost. every single one of those lawyers. and the organization. I mean, almost every Jewish. supporter of the ACLU, including. ones who worked there, quit in. disgust, turned off their donations, and disguised it basically destroyed. the organization, came very close to.

bankrupting it forever. And that's. what made it so interesting to me, was that they were so devoted to. this principle that obviously. was in defense of a. view they obviously found not just. disagreeable, but horrific, to the point where they were willing. to sacrifice their careers and. reputations in pursuit of that. principle. And I just remember being so. enamored of that posture. So they have proven that they. and even now you have like a few. of the remnant, you have a few of. these remnants of like old ACLU.

lawyers, for example, they represent right now the. NRA because the Cuomo, the Andrew Cuomo administration. sought to destroy the NRA explicitly. by threatening banks, by threatening. advertisers, by threatening anyone. who's doing business with the NRA, that they will have their state. contracts cut off. And the ACLU, like the the old. lawyers of the ACLU, like the real. free speech ones, looked at that and. said, obviously, you can't have the. state government setting out to. destroy a political advocacy group. because of their hatred for their. ideology, and represented the NRA.

and sued the state of New York and. actually won on the grounds that. Andrew Cuomo had violated the free. speech laws. But primarily, like. so many institutions in the wake of. Donald Trump, they became completely. corrupted, in part because they were. for the first time, you know, they. would post like, we're going to take. Trump to court on this, and we're. going to take Trump to court on. that. They were, you know, turned. into heroes like the ACLU had been. pretty marginal all their whole, you. know, existence. They were flooded with. tens and then hundreds of millions. of dollars.

And they became this very. well-funded, powerful organization. And they knew that they were. captured as a left liberal. advocacy group solely to destroy. Trump. And now, essentially, the. entire organization is. unrecognizable, you know, and you. had that key event where. they defended the right of Nazis. or white nationalists to march. through Charlottesville. They. represented them. And then you had that woman who was. killed by one of the, parade protesters, the white. nationalist protester who ran over. Heather Heyer. And that caused this huge.

uproar in the ACLU, people who. worked on like, LGBT issues or. like immigrant issues saying, why. are we representing, you know, white nationalists and. their free speech rights? And it's like, do you know anything. about the organization that you. actually applied for a job and then. joined? But they didn't, and that. was on the ACLU for the first time, retreated by issuing this memo. saying, in the future, we're going. to weigh the value. of free speech versus other. political, societal harm. Yeah. And and so many other. instances and where they've taken. positions that would have been. completely anathema to the ACLU.

And to me, this is so illustrative. of what happened to, like, left. liberal political culture. The parts of it I used to really. like is that it was renounced. all in the name of defeating Trump, which in turn had all kinds of. financial values and benefits. and benefits and power and the like. So if you're paying any attention. to what's going on in the world, you. probably ask yourself, what would I. do? Not just for myself, but for the. people who love me and I'm. responsible for my family. What would I do if things really. went south, either for a short. period or a longer period?

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Not crackpot stuff. It's essential I have. it. You should too. Use the promo code Tucker at. checkout for an extra discount, but. don't wait until you need it. It's worth doing now. JS medical.com. So many questions. Just take a quick detour. What's so scary is, you know, I never liked any of the. people in the ACLU. Like, I don't think I want to have. dinner with them, but I, like you, absolutely admired, almost. revered their commitment to. principle.

You know, I'll die for your right. to say something that I hate, right? Okay, so I love that. And I still do love it. That was on the left. That was the best thing about the. left that in their antiwar. instincts, in my opinion, it's. all gone. So it kind of migrated. Right. And conservatives start. talking a lot about free speech. to my joy. And then, you. Know, criticism of the U.S. security state are found only on the. right now, on the way to Trump all. that, like conversion happened. But then, you know, six months ago, all of a sudden, you have.

people on the right being like, no, well, you know, that speech. is violence. is you're making people threatened. by saying things they don't like. It's like stealing, almost word for word, the language of the what. are they used to call them? Snowflakes. Yeah. Or social justice or. so. Maybe we need hate speech laws now. and then. All the Republicans vote. for a hate speech law. And so it is. First of all, let me just say that. like this has. been there for a long time, working.

this huge contradiction in. right wing politics. And I actually have done shows. well prior to October 7th there in. article as well, prior to October. 7th, even with my new. alignment with a lot of. conservatives who now appreciated my. free speech advocacy in my criticism. of the US security state. You know, lots of people who said, like you, oh, I used to really, you know, put my trust in the NSA. and the NSA, CIA. And then there was a Snowden. reporting and all these other. things, seeing their abuses, politically against Trump, that made. me realize, you know, you are right. So I had a lot of new right wing,

if not allies, like people who are. followers of my work and readers and. the like. But I was always aware. of the fact and even saying. you have a huge Israel exception. embedded within your worldview, because it wasn't just since October. 7th. It's been for a long time that. while a lot of right wing speech has. been targeted with censorship on. campus, and I've been very vocal and. objecting to that, among the most. common and frequent. targets of censorship on campus. and generally United States have. long been Israel critics, professors.

who have lost tenure because of it, who have gotten fired because of it. There was Norman Finkelstein, who. had his scholarship approved for. tenure at DePaul University, and Alan Dershowitz went on a jihad. against him to destroy his career. and one and basically. made him unemployable. There was a professor at the. University of Illinois in 2014, Steven Slater, who was given a. contract for tenure. They found tweets of his criticizing. very harshly Israel for its 2014. bombing of Gaza, and. he got fired. University Illinois had to pay him. $1 million. They were, but they were.

pressured by donors and by. there were students, Jewish student. groups saying, we don't feel safe. on campus with someone. who's so harshly critical of Israel. So this has been going on for a long. time. This is not a new development, but since October 7th, and, you know, I have a lot of friends. in my life who, are Jewish, who, but, you know, were either skeptical. of Israel, are kind of apathetic to. it, who got really radicalized after. October 7th. So it you know, Israel has. kind of been on the back burner for. a long time. So those contradictions.

weren't very apparent. Now, you listen to the pro-Israel. right, and they sound. and not ironically or like, you. know, as parody or some strategic. maneuver. They sound exactly like. the left liberals who they've been. heaping scorn on for the last. decade. You cannot enter a discussion with. an Israel defender without them. immediately accusing you of being a. racist if they disagree with you. Oh, you're an anti-Semite. And this is one of the primary right. wing grievances against liberals for. the last decade. Oh, the minute you disagree with a.

liberal, they call you a racist. They call you a bigot, they call. you, you know, transphobic, they. call you a misogynist. Try and have an argument, even. like a substantive civil. argument, disagreement, criticize. their role just a little bit and. count down the number of seconds. before you get accused of being. motivated by bigotry and hatred. It'll be, you know, seconds. And these other people will say, oh, I hate the tactic of accusing. everyone you disagree with being. racist. That's their only tactic, their go to tactic. The minute you question like, why is. the US financing Israel's.

military in its wars when. it not only hurts our own country, but when millions of Israelis are. having better standard of living. than millions of Americans? You're a Jew hater. You hate, you know, you have some. kind of problem with Jews. So it's the same tactic there. Do they say that to you constantly? Oh, being Jewish is not in any way. does not give you any kind of. immunity from that accusation like. zero. Do you? Are you an anti-Semite? What is. so crazy? Yeah. I mean, well, it's the same. thing, you know, it's like black, you know, the other is the amazing. thing is, I did a debate.

with Alan Dershowitz in Manhattan. Tuesday, its about to come out, which nominally was about whether. the U.S. should go bomb yet another. enemy of Israel in the Middle East, this one Iran. But in reality, it turned into this. broader neocon. Debate about neoconservative dogma, and he actually wants regime change. And they did a vote. before and after. And like 70% of. the audience is with me, which was. bizarre because it was the Upper. West Side. But the 30% who are not. were extremely vocal, both during. the debate. But then as I was. leaving, I was accosted.

by, I would say like two dozen of. them, and they were hurling. insults and screaming and trying. to be menacing. And their main. argument was, how can you be a Jew. and say these things about Israel? And I was trying to say, like, I. don't think my being a Jew compels. me to have a certain set of ideas. about foreign policy or this foreign. country. And the amazing. thing about that is there has. been this sense all the time, like. if you, you know, if you have a. liberal sees a black conservative or. a gay conservative, they'll. immediately say, oh, you're an uncle. Tom. You have some, you know,

psychological problem, that you're. self-hating. How can you be a black. conservative? How can you be a gay. conservative? As though being part of these, you know, demographic groups somehow. compels you to embrace a certain. political ideology? Like there's a relationship between. your skin color and the political. ideology that you have to embrace. That was always some argument on the. right. Like, why? Just because someone's black, are. they automatically enslaved to the. Democratic Party? And yet so many. people on the right now say, oh, if. you're a Jew, you have to have. unquestioning support for Israel. But like, what if I don't?

What if I think the government of. Israel is actually wrong? But it's that tactic like you. hate Jews, or if you are Jewish, you're self-hating. And then the hate speech. You know, I've been hearing from. liberals for the last decade, oh. yeah, we want free speech. But some things are over the line in. our hate speech, and they endanger. minority groups because words are. violence and words can incite. violence. And this has been the thing that the. right has been scoffing out, like, oh, this is going to left wing. snowflakes on campuses want. the administrators to intervene and. protect them from ideas that make.

them uncomfortable. There's nothing that we've heard. other than that from the last seven. months from, right, pro-Israel conservatives other. than, oh, these poor little Jewish. students at Harvard and Yale and. Princeton who grew up extremely. wealthy and go to the most elite. colleges, are now somehow. endangered, even though there's no. record of violence at these protests. like almost none. Because hearing chants. that are pro-Palestinian or. anti-Israeli make them feel. vulnerable, like the conservatives. in Congress, like Liz Stefanik and.

Virginia old Mike Johnson. They had like a horde of Jewish. students from Harvard coming in. saying, I don't feel safe at my. school. The very things that. conservatives have been mocking so. viciously when that. came from black students or trans. students or immigrants or Muslims. or whatever. The hypocrisy, the stench of it is suffocating. and nauseating. That's from. my perspective as an. American, I think you can have any. opinion you want on Israel. I'm not actually that interested. I personally like Israel,

whatever. The red line for me is, this is my. country. My birthright is free. speech. God gave me that right. You cannot take it away. And if you're telling me what I'm. allowed to say in my country, you're. my enemy. I. Because it's kind of that simple. You can't tell me what to say or. think, period. Because I'm an American. Exactly. And but if there were a. consistent standard, like, let's. say. There were period. Like, let's just walk back from. there. Right? But if there. Were some consistent standard, like. Western Europeans have hate speech. laws, whatever,

they kind of they don't really. comply them consistently. But at least there's like a dogma. like hate speech is not part of free. speech in the United States. We don't have a hate speech. exception. There is no such thing. So if you. suddenly now start, you know, Pat, and it's not just. in the discourse, they they're. passing laws. Oh, I'm aware that Greg Abbott. issued an executive order that said. there will be no more anti-Semitism, meaning anti-Semitism, speech, anti-Semitic speech or ideas allowed. in the state of Texas.

And you have I don't know if you saw. the video this week, but there was a. video emerging where a school. administrator went to a group of. pro-Palestinian protesters and said, I just want you to know, if you. chant from the river to. the sea, Palestine will be free or. globalize the intifada, you will be turned over to law. enforcement. We will call the police. on you and you will be arrested and. held legally accountable. That is now a crime in Texas. They passed a law that. Is that actually true? Yes. Yes. The yes. I mean, the whole point of Greg. Abbott's executive order.

was to say no. anti-Semitic speech is permissible. in Texas any longer. You're allowed to have anti-Black. racist speech. You're allowed to have anti-Muslim. speech as a white gay speech. Yeah, you can have anti-white. speech. You just can't be. anti-Semitic to the point where. these students are now being told. that if they do these political. chants, no violence, no obstruction. of buildings, nothing illegal, the. chants themselves, the ideas. themselves will be. decreed illegal. Now, as you say, like.

you don't have to hate Israel or. whatever. But we talk all the time. like you have at every pro-Israel. rally in the United States. You will hear people saying, wipe. out all the Arabs, turn Gaza into a. parking lot. Gaza belongs to Israel. We constantly talk. Out bombing this country, bombing that country. We're always advocating violence. against this group, against this. country. You know, this country is a. legitimate. There's only one country that has. the protection of these laws, which. is the country of Israel. You can't have these laws in the. first place. No. And it's so as if they were chanting.

Expel Tucker Carlson from the. country. Why am Tucker Carlson so? Obviously I'm opposed to that. I would have exactly the same. position that I have on this or any. other speech related matter, which is I'm an American. Every American has the right to say. exactly what he thinks at all times. Period. Period. Like, I thought that was. the whole point of the country. Isn't it? And like, let me just say. to you that, like, just because I. hear this argument so much and I. think a lot of people who are. conservatives who understand that. they're now veering into this. territory, try.

and justify it by saying, look, we're only doing this because the. left has been doing it. We're not going to allow the left to. do it, and we're not going to do it. right. Oh, constantly. That's the justification. And the thing is, this is the big. delusion, as I was saying, you know, about these protesters being fired. as pro-Israel critics have long been. one of the most common targets of. censorship. I'll just give you an. example. There were 23 different red. states, including Texas and Greg. Abbott, but also New York. and Andrew Cuomo, who. well before, you know, in the in the. like in the administration and then.

in the Trump administration passed. laws that said this. It said, if you are. a contractor and you work with the. state from now on, you have to sign. a pledge that. you do not believe in and will not. participate in a boycott. of the state of Israel. And I interviewed this woman, profiled her when she was this. speech pathologist in Austin, Texas. She had was her specialty was. she worked with children who had. what it says, you know, boycott. So you can't refuse to buy Israeli. products. Yeah. Like there's a movement like, you know, when the 1980s, there was.

a movement to divest from South. Africa to boycott South Africa, not. to go to South Africa, not to buy. its goods in order to bring down. the apartheid regime. So there's a similar movement called. the boycott, Divestment and. Sanctions movement. Like, let's not invest in Israel. Let's not go to Israel, let's not. support its products in order to end. the occupation and give the. Palestinians a state. in the United States in 24. different states. There was a there's a law. that says you cannot get a. contract with the state. unless you now sign this pledge. saying you don't support this.

boycott and will not permit you to. Sign a loyalty pledge to a foreign. country. Only one you. This is the amazing thing. You're allowed to boycott any other. country in the world, including your. own. You can boycott, Peru, you can boycott South Korea. You can say, I'm not going to buy. Norwegian. Boycott South Dakota. That's the other thing. Wisconsin. Andrew Cuomo, who was who has. a who it did this by executive. order, said that anyone who boycotts. Israel has no right to have a. contract. He wrote a Washington Post. op ed. The headline was if you. boycott Israel, we'll boycott you. Not six months before.

that and six months after, by executive order, he required. state employees to boycott the state. of North Carolina and then the state. of Indiana in protest of their. bathroom bills that they enacted. for, you know, if you you have to. use the bathroom of your biological. choice. So not only are. you allowed to boycott your own. country and harm economically, the citizens of other states, Andrew Cuomo, actually ordered. boycotts of American states, while at the same time. banning anybody from boycotting the.

state of Israel. It's a single. country that has all kinds of. special privileges and rights. And let me just tell you another. thing, do you. They won't say anything about. This. Well, I was writing about it. all the time, but few people cared. Finally, those cases got brought to. the courts, and thankfully, courts. have overwhelmingly, almost. unanimously said this is a grave. violation of the First Amendment are. being struck down. But the I'll. tell you something so amazing, this. just kind of encapsulates it for me. So Ben Shapiro, a good friend of yours, and, longtime political.

ally, obviously, one of the main. kind of unifying views of. conservatives is that we shouldn't. have jobs set aside for certain. groups. We shouldn't have. We shouldn't judge people based on. the color of their skin or their. ethnic group. And when hiring. Or their religion, or it should be a. meritocracy, or you can you do the. job best. Exactly. So Palantir, which is a intelligence, agents and intelligence corporation. that was started by Peter Teal and. that has all kinds of contracts with.

the CIA, the Defense Department. But it's run by, Jewish vocal supporters of Israel, announced in October. or November after hearing. all this stuff about Jewish students. being discriminated against because. of their views or whatever. And it was never really Jewish. students. It was pro-Israel. students, students who support the. war, because a lot of these protests. have overwhelming numbers of Jews. inside these protests. Israel. Yeah. So it's not a hostility toward. Jews, the hostility toward anyone. who supports this war that they're.

protesting against. Palantir announced that they were. creating 180 new jobs. that were available exclusively. for Jewish students on campus, who felt like they were being made. uncomfortable. It was 180 jobs. No Christians could apply to Muslims. could apply. No atheist could apply. No black people. Only for Jews. Ben Shapiro saw that and. he went on to Twitter. And above that Palantir announcement. said something like, wow, this. is fantastic. And then after his own followers.

spent the day saying, what do you. mean? This is exactly the thing. you're supposed to oppose. At the end of the day, he was kind. of forced to say, yeah, you know. what? Maybe it would be best. if it were open to everybody. But then, like, what's the point of. the announcement? He would never. have come and did not. Obviously he. was happy about that. Barry White, same thing, you know, is like anti-woke. This is identity politics as pure. as it gets, creating 180 jobs. solely for Jewish students. And I think very hard to make the. case that Jewish Americans. are like an endangered or.

marginalized minority in the United. States. Very, very hard to make that. case. When she saw that. announcement, she put this, like, very excitement. Wow. On top of it. And so you see this like, utter and. complete abandonment. of what these people have been. claiming were their principles, not. even in defense of their own country. or people in their own country, but. this foreign government in Tel Aviv. And Tom, you know, when you watch something. like that and you see a political. movement expose itself as a complete. fraud, I should say there are a lot.

of exceptions to like, hardcore. conservatives like Chris Rufo has. often condemned some of these. bills. You have to. Candace Owens has to. Tom Massie in Congress has been, like, incredibly steadfast to the. point where a PAC tried to take him. out and failed. He just won his primary with like. 76. But overwhelmingly, the pro-Israel sector of the. American right has proven. itself to be such utter and complete. frauds about virtually every value. they've spent the last decade. pretending to champion and believe. in. And it's been sickening to.

watch. The reason it's scary is, again, has nothing to do with Israel. at all, about which I have, like, less emotion than most Americans. I apparently, I just. don't care that much either way. But what's scary is if. there's an alignment between. left and right, which is to say, everyone with institutional power. On the question of speech. In other words, if you say something. I don't like, I can put you in jail. Then it's a totalitarian country. By definition, by definition, there.

Is no totalitarian country in. history that has offered free. speech. And conversely, there's no. totalitarian country in history. that has refrain from using. censorship, which is one of the. reasons why it's so bizarre that if. you now wave the free speech banner. year accused code just like. fascists, it's like, show me the. fascist country that actually offers. free speech and that doesn't use. censorship. It's like a hallmark of. fascism to do what you're doing. But, you know, I. Well, I know, and I've been attacked. recently for just asking questions. by the right.

I've been on the right my whole. life, like since childhood. And, just asking. or you're just asking questions. like, well, yeah. You're that's kind of about like, important. But here's the other. thing. It's my job. This is the other amazing part of. it. It's like, you know very well, that under Trump and I. think this is one of the things that. Donald Trump has, has done that has. been very positive is he dragged. the Republican Party away from. the kind of Bush Cheney neocon. orthodoxy and even like going back. to the kind of Cold war of endless.

wars and stuff by saying, like, we shouldn't be focusing on all. these other countries, we should be. focused on our own citizens, especially because they're not doing. very well by every metric. Right? Every city is filled with. like addicts and communities. that are being devastated and. falling infrastructure. You compare the infrastructure, the. United States, you know, every time. I come here, I like come. to an airport and see roads and you. go to, you know, Asia or. like places in a golfer. and even in Western Europe, you. know, the difference is so obvious. It looks like it's a crumbling.

country on every level. And we're spending all this money. to benefit other countries. So the Republican Party has. basically rebranded as America. First, you know, based on the idea. that our primary priority should be. the people of our country. And you. I can't tell you how many. Republican members of Congress or. Republican journalists or pundits. I've interviewed over the last two. and a half years who say. we can't be financing the war in. Ukraine because we don't have the. money to be financing. other countries wars, nor should we. be doing that. Our focus should be. on our own country.

And every single time, well before. even October 7th. I will ask him, does that also apply. to Israel? And they would kind of stammer and. stutter and not want to say it. But now, you. know, you say like you don't care. about Israel. And I totally. understand that. The problem, though, is, is that Israel has. received far more aid. from the United States than any. other country by far over the last 3. to 4 decades. We pay for their military. We pay for every time there's a new. war. We send them billions and. billions of more, on top of the $4. billion a year that Obama negotiated. with Netanyahu.

Not only do that, but we arm them. The bombs that they use to kill. Gazan civilians come from the United. States. And I think, worst of all, we isolate ourselves from the entire. rest of the world. You know how many. votes are banned at the UN over the. past seven months, where the entire. world is on one side, and Israel. and United States stand alone on the. other with, you know, a couple. of those tiny little countries that. we often bribe, like Micronesia and. Marshall Islands, the part of a. coalition of those. Micronesia. Yeah, exactly. Micro. It's like, so,

you know, it's also just the. standing in the world, like our. sacrificing of soft power. So we give up so much. for Israel in so many. other ways that if you're an. American citizen, you have to care. about it, even if you don't want. you. You know what I one of the. stories. We did, what I meant was I don't I'm. feel emotional. Like I just have. like gut level affection for it. because I've had such a nice time. there. And I like so. many Israelis personally and know a. lot. And I just like there's nothing. more wonderful than having dinner in. Jerusalem on a summer night. It's just I so I have a lot of. affection. I guess that's what I'm.

saying. So I'm not sort of animated. by, you know, any anything really. I'm just like, trying to. I live here, sort of my kids, sort of my ancestors. It's like I just care about this. country. And if you're changing. my life or stripping my rights from. me that we've had for 250. years on behalf of any other place, you are my enemy. Like, it's just that simple. You were my enemy. I mean, I don't. know what to say. I don't want even. to even have this conversation. Well, that's the amazing thing, is.

that the devotion to Israel. is so great and. so incomparable to the motion of any. other foreign country, that it's. to the point that their supporters, supporters of Israel, are willing. to deconstruct and erode. and sacrifice the core. basic rights that as Americans, by. definition, we're supposed to enjoy. I won't answer that, but. that is what's happening. This is my country. I'm from here. I'm going to die. here. I will not accept that. And I don't care what you call me. You can't take away my right.

to say what I think. That is the foundational right. in the United States of America. And it's the only thing that. prevents us from becoming, you know, Stalinist period. Who came up with the idea? The only vote in November. in elections. Now, you vote every. single day with your time. and your money. You show your. preferences. You put your support behind. Things you believe in, and you. withhold support from things you. don't. You can do that with your. cell phone, by the way. There's a wireless company that if.

you're not on board with what's. going on in this country at the. highest levels, you can. make your preference known. It's called pure talk. It's probably something you should. consider. It is proudly veteran. led. It is led by veterans of the US. military, and it supports American. jobs by. their customer service team. All of them are right here in the. United States, where their company. can say that, by the way, not many. It proudly supports great charities, charities that you would support. yourself, like America's Warrior.

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calls for restrictions. on speech were starting to emerge. And one of the things you said, which I remember was by. some weird inversion or. collection of various events, it has been the American right over. the last decade that has been. defending the cause of free speech, which is absolutely true. It's one of the reasons why I've had. more alignment with the right than. with the left, because that's a. primary cause of mine. Always has been, always will be. And you said if the right now. starts abandoning that and. advocating for censorship, because.

now the views that are being. targeted are no longer ones they. love the ones they hate, namely. criticism of Israel. The right will never have. credibility ever again to. pretend that it believes in free. speech. Because, you know, if you go. to North Korea and you praise. the government, you're not going to. be bothered at all. You can go to any country, any. tyrannical country. If you express the views. that people in power want to hear, you're always going to enjoy. the blessings of free speech. Free speech is for dissidents.

Free speech is for people who have. opposing views, minority views. And so to watch the. right wave, the banner of free. speech because it was conservative. speech being targeted, everyone will. always be in favor of free speech in. defense of their own views. The only real test for the. authenticity of a free speech. advocate is when it comes. time to defend free speech for. the ideas you hate most, which is. why that what the ACLU did was so. admirable. I search out on purpose. the cases where the views I hate. most are being assaulted.

and censored to defend free. speech there, because that's the. only way you can really defend that. value in a meaningful way. And defend your country. Like, what does it mean to defend. the United States? It means to. defend the Bill of rights. The thing that makes this country, it's on a market economy, it's our system of government is. based on the idea that you have. rights you were born with. They were not conferred to you by. government and cannot be taken away. by government. And that is that's. the unique idea. That is the idea. And if there's any idea worth. defending, it's that. And if that. goes away and people who have,

you know, more powerful computing. power or more money or, you. know, access to. the levers of. power or can use violence in a state. sanctioned way if they can stop. you from saying what you think, if. they can force you to believe. certain things, we're just done. We're done. Like like that. You're not allowed to wreck my. country. Actually, that's how I feel. about. Well, and also, you know, the the. weird I mentioned earlier, I mean, one of the, the real cause. that motivated Edward Snowden. was not so much the right to. privacy. Obviously, that was a big.

part of exposing the surveillance. state. What it really was, was. preserving this incredibly. new and powerful innovation. that had emerged in his. adolescence that he became. very enamored with, which was the. internet. The internet is a. remarkable weapon. for citizens to communicate with one. another, to spread information, to. organize without the ability. of state and corporate power to. intervene and control it. And he saw the degradation. of the free internet, which was.

always their principle. You go back to the mid 90s with the. proclamations about the importance. of the internet was always a free. internet. Keep your hands off the. internet. That was the whole point. Yeah. And they degraded it into the. the one of the most powerful systems. of surveillance ever created. But this clause of free speech. really means now mostly free speech. In the place that where we. communicate most, which is the. internet. And that was why the Biden. administration systemic attempt. to force these big. tech companies to remove dissent, that two separate courts have now.

concluded, where one of the grave. assaults on the first movement was. so offensive to me. But the similar thing, it it comes. from the other direction and. And if you take away. the right of free speech, it not. only means. It doesn't only mean that. people who dissent lose the. ability to express that dissent. without being punished. What it. means even more seriously, and I think more destructively, that. we don't have to think about, is. that it enables power centers to. propagandize without challenge. We drown in a. closed system of information.

that power senators approve of, because they've eliminated all these. other ideas as disinformation, or. hate speech, or incitement to. violence or whatever theories they. invent to erode free speech. And then we're hopeless. We're totally impotent. Every other right we have doesn't. matter, because that's the that's. our minds, our controlled, our mind. What we believe is manipulated. So we'll be obedient, will be. conformist. Those other rights won't. be necessary because we'll be good, conformist, obedient citizens who. don't realize how propagandized. we are. And that is the what's at stake.

And so when you see any. group of people, especially ones. who claim to be believe in free. speech, suddenly abandon that and. start cheering for censorship as a. framework, it's incredibly. dangerous because even as a. self-interested matter, you know. that this system will eventually be. used against you, even if it's not. at the moment. And conservatives, of all people. should know how easily it will be. weaponized against them. And yet they're cheering for the. very systems that they've spent. a decade now claiming to hate, along. with all these scripts about.

Everyone's a racist who disagrees. with me. And, no, this isn't free speech. This is hate speech. You know all or hate hate speech. Hoax. Hate hate crimes. Hoaxes like Jesse Smollett. Hate crimes, hoaxes like Barry. White. Suicide push this. idea that there are. Jewish students walking around and. suddenly being attacked by violent. hordes of anti-Semitic mobs and. being stabbed in the eye with. Palestinian flags. And it all began with this one. woman, who is a long time. Israel activist, who claimed that it. happened, and she went all over the.

media claiming, I was stabbed in the. eye with a Palestinian flag. There was nothing wrong with her. eye. There was nothing wrong with at all. because it didn't happen. Hey, someone waving a flag was. walking past her and it brushed by. her. And that was. a hate crimes hoax. And then Mike Johnson, the speaker. of the House, went two days later, the Holocaust Museum and turn that. one hate crimes hoax that this one. single incident said, we. are now a country where Jewish. students cannot walk out on the. street without being endangered, of. being stabbed in the eye with. a Palestinian flag.

So every single component of left. wing culture that the American right. has been heaping scorn on and. viciously mocking and deriding for. a decade, are now their defining. beliefs and tactics in defense. of this foreign. Country that it's so interesting. you mentioned Barry Weiss. Very wise, I think pretty popular. Now, I have strong feelings about. Barry Weiss either way, but she. seems very popular on. the right and some parts of the. right. So here's someone who's, you know, a liberal who's opposed to. free speech and is a liar.

How did she all of a sudden. becomes like, she's everything. conservatives are supposed to. dislike or oppose? Maybe not personally. She's very charming, actually. But, like, how did she become, like, a darling of conservatives? Well, I think we talked about this. before, but Barry Weiss. got hired away from the Wall. Street Journal by. the New York Times on the same day. that they also hired Bret Stephens. away from the Wall Street Journal. And all the liberals were focused.

on and obsessed with Bret Stephens. They were all up in arms and angry. that Bret Stephens was a climate. denier, and now he's going to have. the space as a New York Times. columnist. But I was trying to get. everyone to understand that the far. more significant higher, the far. more consequential person was Barry. Weiss, because I had seen her. She's extremely shrewd, she's very. cunning. She understands how media works, she's very smart. And I know I've gotten to know her. personally, and she's impossible to. dislike as a person. She's like incredibly charming. And and I think, like,

genuinely compassionate, like you. cannot dislike her as a person. You agree. And that's a that's an. important weapon. But what the one. of the reasons why she became a folk. hero is because she resigned from. the New York Times was such a kind. of denunciation of the New York. Times, like ideological dog, when there was a lot of truth to. that, for sure. But then, you know, if you actually. look at and I think this is one of. the things that I've only been I've. only come to understand recently. is that there are a lot of. there's been a lot of focus over the.

last decade under. the banner of Anti-woke. And that's really Barry Weiss's kind. of brand is like, I'm against. woke ideology, I'm against. media capture by ideology. And there was all this fixation. on college campuses. And a lot of times people like wire, 40 year old pundits and journalists. constantly talking about what 19 and. 20 year olds are doing on college. campuses, like almost not just. disproportionate, but a little bit. creepy. Especially Ivy League. college, like, actually, who gives a.

shit in a country that's dying of. fentanyl ODS, where people. are so unhappy that life expectancy. is declining. Like we're spending a lot of time. talking about Columbia students. Exactly. And like you can say, well, look, they're leaders. And it's true, like 19 and 20. You know how fucking stupid I was. when I was 19 and 20? Not as stupid as a kind of idealism. and naivete. And just like my view of the world. was so simple, because that's part. of being young. Like, you kind of. want that youthful energy. But the real reason is.

that. The thing that is very wise. is obviously animating cause. is the cause of Zionism in Israel. That's I don't think she would even. deny that. And there has been this fear. on the part of the Israeli. government in the pro-Israel. movement that the greatest. danger the Israeli causes faces. is the activism of students on. college campuses, where it's. the only place where robust. criticism of Israel is tolerated. And it's the movement, as we were. describing with this boycott, Divestment and Sanctions movement.

has taken hold. And that was in part the thing that. brought down apartheid South Africa, which is a very close ally of both. Israel and United States. And they were petrified that if that. took hold, then that would become. a very effective movement against. Israel, weakening its position, weakening at standing in the world. And so there were all kinds of. strategic memos of saying, we need. to target college campuses and. make sure that this is. that this climate is transformed. And the whole reason why people like. Barry Weiss and Bill Ackman, who uses his billionaire status,

suddenly become political activists, focus so much on college campuses. wanting professors, wanting a. university president inspired. Bill Ackman led the way of saying. any college student who signs a. anti-Israel petition. will be permanently blackballed, and. all his billionaire friends and. hedge fund managers and corporate. CEOs and people at Palantir joined. in is because they. identified college campuses. as the place where Israel criticism. was bubbling over and was really. being active. It's the same reason.

that TikTok got banned. You know, this TikTok ban, if you think about. It, I thought it was because of. China. No. Okay, so. I'm just kidding. I know. So when it was first. introduced, that was the idea, right? Like we can't have the. Chinese Communist Party, spying and gathering data. as though, like, all of that data. is not available on the open market, like there was a big scandal that. the CIA and. intelligence communities were buying. on the open market, huge amounts of. data about American citizens. They're listening to us on this. right now.

Everything is tracked. You don't. Why would China need to. create an app to get all the spying. information that they can buy from. anywhere else? So and at the same time, like the people who run TikTok. are pure capitalist like the guy. who's the CEO was born in Singapore. He went to the London School of. Economics, then he went to Harvard. He worked for McKinsey or Goldman. Sachs. Like a classic, all he cares. about is money. But this, this idea of of banning. TikTok has been around for four. years and it couldn't get passed. It was considered way too extreme, like banning American citizens.

who voluntarily choose to use. this app to find communion, to spread ideas, to make themselves. heard, to read news. Taking that away from them or. forcing a sale was considered way. too extreme. And yet suddenly, after. October 7th, instantly. an overwhelming bipartisan consensus. formed in order to ban it ran. through Congress, and President. Biden signed it. Why you go and. ask any one of the sponsors of. this TikTok ban why it finally got. enough people to support it after.

spending so many years, not even. near a majority. And they will all tell you that the. reason is because they became. convinced that there was far. too much Israel criticism being. permitted on TikTok. That was the issue that became the. tipping point for banning. an app that 180 million. Americans, a third of the country, voluntarily choose to use. It was because of the Israel issue. And I think, like. we're required so often to tiptoe. around this, you know, you.

get accused of, like, pushing. anti-Semitic tropes that like, Jews are behind everything, and you. Want to live in a free country, just. leave me alone. Just want to live in a free country. That's it. That's how. It's not just I don't. care. It's not just American. Jews were inculcated from birth with. the idea that they have particularly. on top of like evangelicals, is people in the national security. state like this country has. such a special status. And I hold and it's not me like. speculating that Israel was the. reason the people who got the bill. through Congress say that.

the tipping point was that all these. members of the Democratic Party, who. previously were resistant to banning. TikTok, became convinced. that that was one of the major. sources that was allowing Israel. criticism and pro-Palestinian. speech, meaning like lots of videos. circulating about, you know, Gazan. children dying, they wanted. to ban the the app or force it. to be sold to a an American. conglomerate that would be far more. susceptible to pressure from the. administration, like Google and. Facebook of ban to censor it,

that that was the reason they felt. like the reason why young people. turned against Israel, because they. were getting too much information on. TikTok and it was too free. That should alarm everybody. Well, it's it's again, if you're an American and you just. want to live in a free country, that's completely unacceptable. That's like there's no way. to describe that is anything. but a state clampdown. on free speech, which is not allowed. in the United States. That's totalitarian. Super simple. I'm really struck by.

How non-obvious that seems to be to. everybody. And I'm wondering, like, where's. the cat? You don't have a bill of. rights. You don't have a free. country unless someone's fighting. for it. And I don't see anyone with power. fighting for it. So, no, I mean, well, it's so. interesting. I mean, first of all, I. think we have to acknowledge the. reason. You know, the founders, when they. created the Bill of rights, guaranteed rights that they knew. would otherwise be vulnerable if. they weren't guaranteed rights. That's the whole point. And the very.

first right, guaranteed in the Bill. of rights in the First Amendment is. the right of free speech. That was for a reason. They were kind of children of the. enlightenment. The idea that there's. no more, ability. for us to put our faith in. centralized authority to decree. truthfully, we are endowed with the. capacity of reason, and we're. supposed to figure that out for. ourselves without being. It's so foundational because. We're not a slave. That is the marker of being. a human being. The right to think what. you want and to say what you want. If you don't have that right, you. are not fully human, right?

And I feel that way as a Christian. I'm just going to say I think God. created people. There's inherent. value in every person. And that's why it's so important to. me. It's, it's it's actually bigger. than America. It's like, are we. going to treat people like human. beings with dignity, or are we going. to treat them like objects? It's one of the things that. ultimately distinguishes it from. other animal species, like. it's a reason to engage. in critical analysis. And so, but conversely, the reason. that right needed to be guaranteed. is because we are all tempted.

to look at the views we find most. threatening and to hate, and to want. those banded to kind of invent. theories as to why they should be, even if we believe that we're, supporters of free speech. Like somehow these views that. we hate most and fine, most. threatening, those are something. different. And you see the left having done. that for the past ten years by. claiming that people who question. gender ideology or inciting genocide. against trans people or people who. are opposed to, racial. reforms or affirmative action, or. people who hate black people, people.

opposed to immigration hate nonwhite. people. So this is how they created. these justifications for. supporting censorship. And now the American right. I don't want to say now in the sense. that they suddenly started because, like I said, it's been pre-dating. October 7th for a long time. But that's you know, I don't think. it's like so conscious that, oh, we're we're political central. I think they view Israel criticism. as very dangerous and very. threatening, and they don't fight. the human temptation that we all. have to want, the ideas. that we most hate to kind of. be out.

If you cared about your own country, comma, which you run, which you run, you have an. obligation to care about your. country, since it's your job to. administer and run the country and. preserve what we have for. our children. I. You can't reach these conclusions. like if you are, officeholder in the United States, you have one job, and that's. to preserve and improve. your country. And if that's not your main, you know, driving desire, then you're betraying your country.

Yeah. And I mean, I think, first of. all, you know, we are all inculcated. with the idea from birth. I know I was that the United States. is the greatest country in the. world. It represents freedom. I mean, we were born in the Cold. War, where it was really hard to. believe that. But even after and we. were given explanations as to why. that was true, it wasn't just, you. know, a declaration. And like one of the reasons was that. we have freedoms guaranteed that. other countries don't have a free. country. You might when people would say. exactly that. And we were taught to Revere the. Constitution in the Bill of rights. and all of the values that it. represented.

So if you're willing to abandon. those and sacrifice those, and this. is the thing it would like. The left, the American left has. been accused of being, I think, quite validly embracing. censorship. But at least they're doing it. I don't mean to justify it, I'm just. saying distinguishing it. At least they're doing it in. defense of what they consider to. be other Americans who live here, minority groups who live here. And they think censorship is. important to protect the. ability of other Americans who are. part of minority groups, not to be.

endangered. It's a totally misguided idea. to exaggerate the extent to which. everyone's being endangered. I think race relations on that stage. are better than they've ever been, but that's at least their idea. What the censorship we're talking. about now is designed to do. is to sacrifice the rights of. American citizens in order to. benefit this foreign country, to which people in the United States. have obviously. more loyalty than they do to their. own country. I don't just mean American Jews. I mean a lot of evangelicals, I mean. a lot of great people.

And that is the part that is. so bizarre and disturbing. that the reverence for this foreign. country, I mean, you. can say anything you want about. American leaders, about the leaders. of your own country. You can say they're evolved, they're criminal, they're corrupt, they're genocidal. Yeah, you could do any of that. You cannot do that about the. leaders of this one foreign country. leaders about any other country you. want, just not the leaders of this. one foreign country. And like I said, I think the time. to to stop tiptoeing around.

that has long passed. Well, I, I agree with that. And I say that as someone who spent, I don't know, a couple of decades, just sort of avoiding the topic just. because, I mean, almost no, almost all my friends love Israel. I have no problem with that at all. Great love Israel. I mean, it doesn't bother me at all. I as I've said three times and I. mean it, I just have great affection. for the country and the people who. live there. I'm like, hardly. anti-Israel, like not even a little. bit. I just care about my country. And all of a sudden there's like. such a massive threat to our.

foundational rights stemming. from this issue. And I think, of. course, you face all sorts. of I mean, I've had people I know. and really like and have known for. decades, many decades, call. me or text me, you know, you're. and really attack me, actually. And I always I say exactly. what I'm saying to you because, I. mean. Let me ask you, do you I perceive. and I'm wondering if you do. I do think, like for the last, say, 5 or 6 years when you had your. Fox News 8:00 show.

I think it's not controversial to. say that you were. not I, I think I would. say the most popular and influential. voice in American conservative. politics may be second only to. Donald Trump. And I seen that for a long. time. Only in the past. seven months when you started. expressing some dissent on this. particular issue, and it wasn't even. anti-Israel. It was just, hey, why. are we doing all this for this. foreign country? Something you've. been saying about Ukraine in many. other countries? Is there a real.

animus for the first time among. certain factions of the conservative. movement in United States, including. very prominent people, not just to. criticize you, but to try and. exclude you, to try and destroy. your reputation? Like we were. talking about that fake report that. you had launched a new show on. Russian TV. And I watched the people. who are celebrating that in. spreading that they were people who, a year ago would never have dared. criticize you. This one issue. And same with Candace Owens, who, you know, it was incredibly popular. among conservatives as well. And you can point to other people.

too. It's this one issue that can just, you know, be the ultimate. wedge. And I'm wondering if you. perceive. That I, you know, I really try not. to think about it. I think, I don't. want to become angry at all. And I think that I'm just. being as honest as I can be. I do think, and I have noticed this, you know, if you start focusing on. the Israel question, you know, people got really angry about this. stuff, really angry, and it takes. over their brains. And I just don't. want that. You know, I'm a,

I think, a fundamentally happy. person. I have a wonderful family. and wonderful friends, and I live in. a wonderful place. And I, I don't want to focus. I don't want to go crazy and be. like, mad, okay? And I also don't want the concerns. of a foreign. Or the arguments about. that country to define my views. I care about where I live. in my family and. preserving what I grew up with. And. And I don't mean money, I mean. You know your. Values and you're right and you're. stuck. Yeah, exactly. So I just have really.

tried to ignore it and tried not to. get involved. And I know that. people, you know, love Israel. so much, which again, which does not. bother me at all. But that it makes them super. emotional, whatever that. But it's when you start to tell me. that as an American, I can't say. certain things in my country, I won't have it. I just won't grab it. So I just really feel like I was. pushed into saying something. And I also have a special concern. for Christians in the Middle East. And so I did. I've only done one interview in.

my life, right. That challenged any. Which was about that pastor in the. West Bank. I don't know Jerusalem. I know nothing about him. And, you know, I'm not like carrying. water for him. I think it's a. totally fair question to say like, well, how are Christians doing. in the Middle East? And the answer is not well at all, and maybe we should hear from them. That was that was my only. agenda right there. And all of a sudden, like, you know, I get attacked personally. as some sort of crazed Nazi or. something that was too unreasonable. for me. But even then I was like,

I'm not going to engage. I don't want to have these. arguments. It's not worth it. I've got a million different. interests. This is not a great. interest of mine. And as I've said five times, I just. don't care that much. But then the speech thing, when. you're wrecking my country. and lying constantly and encoding. those lies into my laws, then just as my patriotic duty. to be like, no and yes, are you do you get destroyed for. that, or do people try to destroy? Obviously. And all of a sudden Barry Weiss,

who's like, you know, I've always. gotten along with very well, I'm not. a get, you know what I mean? Super charming. Right? Woman I totally. agree. Done some of the things I. like. Not all of a sudden. she's like telling Eli Lake, who. I know I went to same college as. him. I've always liked Eli, like, write some hit piece on me saying. that I'm anti-American. and like. I'm Ben Shapiro in the Hall de la. Why aren't. I totally. So I actually, I was, I. was shocked. I don't read anything. about myself. I'm a little bit cut. off, so I don't even know this happened. Someone sent it to me.

Eli Lake attacked you and Eli Lake, whatever. You know, not a huge part of my. life, but I'm never just like the. like. So I text you like. And I was like you said, I hate. America in this piece. You've got my text. Of course. I texted him, why. don't you call me and ask me my. views on American? I would just tell. you because I'm, I think, pretty. transparent about my views. No response. I said you. wrote a piece about my views. When you have my text. When you know me, why don't you ask. me what my views are? I am happy to. go on the record and tell what I. think of America. He didn't respond, so I hit him. again. He's like, yeah, I guess I. should've done that.

I'm like, no, this is it. I mean, again, I'm not going to. dwell on it or I don't want to. whine. I have no cause for whining. at all in my life, period. However, that's so. dishonest. that I just it's like, oh, that's how it works. But but I think, I think it's such. an important point because. You may have come to the obvious. conclusion that the real debate is. not between Republican and Democrat. or socialist and capitalist. Right, left.

The real battles between people who. are lying on purpose. and people who are trying to tell. you the truth. It's between good and evil, it's. between honesty and. falsehood. And we hope we are on the. former side. That's why we created this network, the Tucker Carlson Network, and we. invite you to subscribe to it. You go to Tucker carlson.com/podcast, our entire archive. Is there a lot of behind the scenes. footage of what actually happens in. this barn, when only an iPhone. is running Tucker. carlson.com/podcast?

You will not regret it. So just let me say two things on. this. One is, I think the thing that. you've talked about most on your. show, when you had the Fox show. and probably thing that I've talked. about most to over say, like the. last 2 to 3 years has been the war. in Ukraine and for very similar. reasons, not because. like who runs Eastern Donbass. or the Crimea. No is of significance to me. It's really actually not me too. It's because our country has become. so involved in it, not just with. money, but with like our weapons.

and risking escalation, that you. feel obligated as an American, given. that policy makers in Washington. have decided that our country that. is now our war. And I think that's the same thing. with Israel. It's not like I. have some special I mean, you know, I grew up very much an American. Jew, like all four of my. grandparents are Jewish. My parents are Jewish. Most of the people I went to school. with were Jewish. You know, I consider myself a Jew. I think, like Jewish accomplishment. is something to be proud of. I have family in in. Israel. I have no animus at all.

It's to me it's the same exact, you know, policy principles. that led you to criticize the war in. Ukraine that have led me to. criticize lots of wars, including. the one in Ukraine. But the reality is, and I think this. is so important, is that. it's just is the case. And as someone who grew up, you. know, embedded in American Jewish. culture, my my grandmother. fled Nazi. Germany in the late 1930s. to. She was a Jewish immigrant, literally German Jewish German. immigrant who had a big German. accent until the day she died.

And only she and her younger sister. came and the rest of her family. stayed on were all killed in the. Holocaust. Whoa. So these were, you know, the things. I grew up with and fed on and. all of that. And for that reason, I know, you. know, I went to my she sent me to, like, Jewish summer camp. I went from, like, five straight, summers. And you sing Jewish prayers. and like, you're, you know, indoctrinated with, like, the. principles of Jewish culture. American Jews are told and. indoctrinated from birth that one. of their duties is to. be loyal to and defend and. protect the State of Israel.

Even if you're an American, you're a. Jew. In Argentina, you're a Jew, wherever that is something. that being Jewish kind of, you're told from birth obligates. you to do. And then recently, evangelicals. have also taken on this, this view. that Israel is its country of great. special, you know, religious and theological value. And so we do have a lot of people in. United States who, for various. reasons, have decided that this one. foreign country has such.

great importance that if. forced to choose between the Jew and. of course, we have different. national interest and different, strategic interests all the time. that protecting and. venerating and elevating. Israel is a more important goal. than even defense. to our own country. And that is just. the reality. And you see it. manifesting in so many ways, so that. the emotional. And that's why people can tolerate. disagreements of almost every. kind, you know. But we lost, I think, like 15 to.

20% of our subscriber base. in our viewership, like in the first. four weeks of the, after October 7th because of my. position on Israel. And, you know, people say I can. disagree with on anything, but this. is the one issue I just can't. tolerate. I got to run in the. opposite direction. And I think it's important to. acknowledge how many people. are inculcated from. birth to believe that. And that's the thing I think is our. greatest obligation as human beings, why free speech is so important as. well, and the ability to access. other information like I want to. read what Russia is saying.

The EU made it illegal to. platform Russia state. media, adults in. the EU, even if they want to, can't read Russian media. because now it's illegal. I want to have different information. sources other than what my own. countries tell me, because one of. the things you have is adult, I. think is the greatest obligation is. to go back and reevaluate. what you were trained and. indoctrinated, inculcated to. believe, and not just reflexively. continue to believe that in. adulthood because it was. indoctrinated, but to reassess.

whether or not those really are your. views as a result of your own. critical analysis, or whether you. have different views, including the. role of our own country. Like, all of these things are so. important to not being a. propagandized kind of automaton. And it is just true for. a lot of American Jews that this. indoctrination is so extreme. I think now for evangelicals as. well, that it's become. The paramount view, like the view. that subsumes every other. And I think that's why when you see. this conflict between.

a devotion to protecting. the civil liberties and free speech. rights of American citizens, when. that comes in conflict with this. other goal of shielding and. protecting Israel, so often. the shielding and protecting of. Israel wins out even. when it comes time to protection. So that's gotta be. The red line. That's got to be the. red line. And again, even for people. like me, you know, again, I. don't have any problem with Israel. and many people who love Israel. People think Israel's right and. doesn't. Great. I love other countries, I love.

I love Brazil, I love countries that. I visit. You know, you can love. other countries. I love Israel as a place to visit. and I'm not against it. If you don't allow. me to say what I think or think. what I think, you are not treating. me as a human being. Period. And the defense of. human dignity has to be the highest. goal. Period. And you cannot treat me like a. slave. And it's just gotten to this. point where, yes, of course, obviously there are massive.

drawbacks, to saying. that out loud, but like, you don't. have a choice at this point. You just don't have a choice. Well, and I also think this is what. I really believe to is that, you know, you've obviously. got to a place in your career. where you have a lot of security, where you have, you know, even with. this dissent on this issue, a lot of. people who used to listen to you and. trust you and, are going to pay. attention to you no matter what. I feel the same way. I mean, if had like a success in my. journalism career, I'm at the point. where, you know, I feel I don't ever. feel like I need to be captive of my.

audience or feed them what they want. to hear. I have always tried to. cultivate an audience that knows. that they can't expect to come to me. and hear what they want to hear. At times, they're going to hear. things that they violently disagree. with, and I'm always going to respect. them not to make an argument, but. that's part of what I hope they're. coming to me for. But for a lot of people in. journalism, especially with the. destruction of jobs and the erosion. of job security, as. you know, every major media, what. is, is, is, is laying. off people in huge numbers and it's. kind of a collapsing industry. The pressure and need to conform.

is greater than ever, because most. people don't have that privilege or. that security that you and I both. have at this point in our lives and. career. And, you know, I can't tell you how. many times during Russiagate. when I was as vocal of a skeptic. of Russiagate as I could possibly be. from the very moment I first heard. that script get unveiled by the CIA. through the New York Times in the. Washington Post. So many journalists who work. at major media outlets like CNN and. the Washington Post and, NBC news and others would write. to me and say, I'm so thankful.

for this skepticism that. airbrushing. And of course, at some. point I was like, why are you. expressing it? But I know why. Because if they did, even one time, they'd become the target of. the liberal mob on Twitter. That would put pressure on their. editors to fire them. They'd be the first to get laid off, the last to get hired. And so our journalism. profession has become one where. conformity is by far the. highest value. And I think for those of us who. aren't quite as vulnerable. or as insecure in terms of our,

you know, career position or. need to keep a job, it's almost like. you have an obligation to create. that space that a lot of other. people can create. That's really what I feel. And so, no one. likes having people. who are your readers or your viewers. or previous supporters. I kind of turn against you or. denounce you. Nobody likes being. called names. It's not fun for. anybody. But, you know, if you're going to do. a job and have some kind. of meaning to it, some kind of. purpose to it, some kind. of value that it based. on, I feel like if you.

are in that kind of position, you. have the obligation to take. those risks. Course you do. And to be as honest. as you can be. Yeah. And and by the way, to keep to. the extent that you can, but try. really hard every day to keep the. hate out of your heart if you. do find I mean, there are some. people I don't talk about, not many, thank God, but there are some people. I don't talk about or write about. ever, because I'm too mad at them. and I don't want to feel that way. And I can smell hate on other. people. Hate is one of those words that's. been weaponized and of course,

hate. But but hate is real. And we do feel it. And in my religion, you're not. allowed to, forgive us our. trespasses as we forgive those who. trespass against us. Like it's like hate the sin, but not. the sinner. You absolutely are not allowed. to hate people. You have to forgive people. So there are, you know, there are a few people, individuals who I feel like really. betrayed by Bill Kristol. I don't talk about Bill Kristol. because I'm like, I'm not rational. Sometimes I work from someone. and he's gone insane, in my opinion.

But on this topic, like, I, I. you're not going to stop me from. saying what I think is true by. accusing me of hate when I know that. there isn't any hate. I'm not motivated by some weird. animus or something. You know, some irrational. dislike of anything. I'm just not going to be. That's not. you're not going to stop me. Well, I think that's I like that. that is like the attribute of. being secure in yourself, in your. own values that you. Don't feel like you have to prove. anything, or there's an accusation. made against you that you know is. false, that you have. No, it doesn't. affect you at all because you know.

deep down how you live, how you. feel. How you smelled and other people, oh, I see people. And so I was like, wow, that guy. There's a lot going on inside. And I don't want to be anywhere near. that because I may agree with some. of his views, but he's this, this rage. It's just oh, it's well, I, I, I. always had like, and I think this. has been so important, like I used. to be a lot more, but live in. my rhetoric like a lot more. aggressive my rhetoric. And I heard. Yeah. And you too, I heard you back. in that show where you talked to. Chris Cuomo and you guys were kind. of laughing, you in particular. talking about our friendship, but. you were saying how like nobody was.

meaner to you. And I don't even. remember that because I was equally. mean to everybody. But I never felt it. was like a perk. I never felt like I was condemning. the person because I didn't know the. person. I felt like I was condemning. their views, the role they were. playing in the political. But so many times people who I'm, you know, like viciously condemned. or denounced, I end up becoming. friends with. Yes. Because I never, I never wanted to, even when. I think it's important as a. journalist to very harshly criticize. and denounce, you know, especially.

people with influence and power. It's one of your jobs. But it's important not to let that. affect who you are because it's so. corrosive to harboring hatred. Right. And by the way, what matters. is people, and I would argue animals. also. But that's what matters. And that, I mean, that's why we're. having these debates, because we're. trying to figure out what the best. way to govern. people, to live our lives fully. structure country. But all of those tasks. are designed to produce the same. outcome, which is happier people. So if you cease to care about.

people, then like, what is the point. of the exercise? Right. Well, I had this really fascinating, like actually transformative. experience when I was. a law student at NYU. I was like, you know, in my early. 20s, you know, I grew up in the 80s, came of age in the 80s as a, as. a gay, teenager. And like, the Moral Majority and. Reagan were like, you know, the. things I was taught to hate like, that were the threat to me. So anything conservative or socially. conservative. And I had a roommate and she started. dating, when I was in law school,

she started dating this this guy. whose family were like, Rush. Limbaugh fanatics. And she would go there on the. weekend and come back. And then she. told me she came back once and said, there's this form on the internet. where all the Rush Limbaugh. conservatives go. It's sponsored by the National. Review and the Heritage Foundation. It was on CompuServe. It was some like political forum. She said, you have to go in there. and just, like, provoke them and. troll them and, you know, create all. the disruption. So I did I started. with the all malicious intent. of just like angering them and like. creating like all kinds of division. in there, you know, and just saying.

the most offensive thing is I could. possibly think of and then like, the. more I stayed, the more I started, like having debates with them in. like conversations with them. And these were like hardcore social. conservatives. These were not like. the nice conservatives who just. believe in some conservative dogma, but then like are very like socially. egalitarian. This was like in the. early 90s as well, when these, you. know, debates are much different. than they are now. And just my being gay, my being like. a lawyer in in Manhattan, these were. like, you know, very evangelical. people and like, the most rural. parts of the country. And then I got to the point where I.

had stayed there for so long and. debated with them for so long and. talked to them for so long that we. started finding commonalities. And then they had this yearly. event where everybody would go and. meet in person, and they. invited me to go. And it was in some like suburb of. Indiana, as some like Hilton. And I was like, you know what? I think I'm going to go. And my. friends are like, don't go, you're. going to be killed. It's a trap like this, you know, this is how you're taught to. perceive what you're. Yeah, they're. people. And I went and I spent the weekend. there and everybody was so warm, so happy to see me. I was so happy to see them.

And these were the people I was. taught wanted me dead. These were the people I was taught. that I was supposed to hate and. didn't mean. Like, I agree with. their politics any more than I did. previously, or that they agree with. mine, but seeing them as like. actually good human beings who had. the same concerns in their lives. I know it sounds so simple, but. it's such an important lesson that. to learn, because our society is. constantly trying to divide us. And I think that's very purposeful. It's what actually the real. nugget in the story is the fact that. you went, well, why didn't you do that? Because I've been there like 8 or 9.

months, and I felt like these. connections were real. I just felt, you know, it was almost. like I had become part of this. community. And some of them are, like, around. still there, like writers, like some. work for, like, conservative. outlets. And we always, like, laugh. about that. But it was like my first. introduction to like, internet. debate was at the time when the. internet was still, like segregated. with AOL or CompuServe. It was like that. It wasn't like. interconnected internet. It was like very the incipient. stages. But I went because I felt like.

I liked these people, and I kind of. felt like they liked me. And I originally went in solely with. the purpose to provoke their hatred. toward me and to hate them as well. That was like why I went in. and just being around them daily. after day after day, like first. debating and then convert it. It like made me see their humanity. and they saw mine. I was just as anathema to them as. they were to me. I was openly gay and I was a Jewish. voyeur, and I. Is working in. Manhattan. And these were like. evangelical, like housewives. or like businessmen and like, you know, rural Georgia.

or like Idaho. And I. don't know, I guess we just. discovered each other's common. humanity. And always this is a very. transformative experience for me. about how you look at other people. What a wonderful story will. obviously in you, maybe latent. was like that. priority. Other people matter more. than anything. Yeah, I, I also I think that again, like so much of the reason why. we end up with the political views. we have, like sometimes you see. people with political views that you. just can't comprehend, you think are.

like malicious and destructive. and insane a. lot of times just because. that's what they were formed to be, that's like the byproduct and of. their culture and of their. upbringing. And if you had the same upbringing, maybe you would think the same. things. And I think, like the people who. do that for a living and keep these. destructive ideologies, those people. really weren't your contempt, you. know, like the middle crystals of. the world, the Victorian ruins of. the world, like though those kind of. people as Chinese, but ordinary people who don't pay. much attention to politics.

Like before I started politics, you. know, I was just reading the New. York Times and The Atlantic and The. New Yorker thinking I was like, highly informed, like the hype. And then when I started writing. about politics and had, like, full. time to go and read original. documents, not having information. mediated anymore for me, I realized, like pretty. rapidly, like almost everything. I believed about politics was based. on a fraud that was not like my own, you know, my own process of arriving. at things critically. I just was stuffed with all these. ideas that were not mine that.

I kind of passively, ingested. And that two was a very eye opening. experience because. Shocking. Yeah. You know, you think you're very. smart person, you think you're. educated, and then you realize, like, wow, you're just as. susceptible to propaganda as. anything. And I do think smart people are. people who believe they're smarter. of high verbal IQ. You're clearly in that category. To a lesser extent, I am. Also, they. are better at self-deception, I think, than any other group, because they're smart. And they read The Atlantic in The. New Yorker and I read The.

New Yorker. I read every issue of. The New Yorker from 1993. until 2007. Write me to every issue. Yeah, yeah. And I thought it was so. informed. And so it was, it. Was it a really interesting. magazine, The Atlantic, under Mike. Kelly. And after his death, even. wonderful magazines like that, you know, younger people don't even. know what we're talking about. But. like, magazines were the way that. you sort of. They were like to think pieces. They had like a bunch of different. ideas in them. That's I get on an airplane with my. bag and I'd have like nine issues. of, you know, The New Yorker, The.

Atlantic. I read every single word. and all of them. And then as I got older, I realized, like, I had no. fucking idea. what was going on. I was actually more misled than. someone who hadn't been told. anything was coming at it cold, like I was completely propagandized. I didn't even know that. And I thought I was a free thinker. Exactly. You know, I this other. experience, I don't want to romanticize. these kind of things, but, I was once in Milwaukee, and I like, in a suburb Milwaukee, and I like, I. don't mean to, like, romanticize.

like the, you know, middle of the. country diners. But I was in a. diner, and. it was right at the time that The. Intercept had this scandal because, they very poorly. mishandled this source reality. winner and unintentionally. outed her. But the whole story was. like she had given a document trying. to prove that the Russians were. interfering in an election, and they made the front page of the. New York Times. So these people. who are sitting at this, like. adjacent table, who were obviously. just like ordinary people, no, like. on their phone, they saw the top.

story, the New York Times. And it. was about this intercept story. Obviously, they had no idea I was. sitting at the next table, but they. were really what they were really. saying was like, yeah, with. all this Russia stuff, it's so hard. to figure out what's real and what's. not because it's all anonymous and. it seems like it's all driven by. some agenda. I was like, I almost know nobody. who's paid to write about. politics, who writes about. journalism, who has that recognition. totally. Right. And it's like. through that distance, they're able. to see things so much more clearly. than the people who are immersed in.

it. That is the that is absolutely the. true saying in the most dangerous. thing, because the people who are. immersed in are the ones me. controlling. Exactly, exactly, exactly. So, but. I don't even really want to. get into Russia. I just can't. resist asking you about Navalny. and his death. That happened the day I left. Russia. Right? Right before the Munich security. conference. I know. It all. So perfect. Perfect timing for. Yeah. And I'm literally on a plane. going through Serbia to Geneva. or wherever, you know, like I'm.

totally cut off and all of a sudden. I land on my phone. It's just exploding. You know, Putin just killed Navalny. What was that? I mean, I, I actually don't have. full perspective on it just because. I was so far away, but. like, what was that story? Well, first of all, you we did this on our show actually. for two weeks after. Navalny staff. It was definitive. He asserted over and over in the. most authoritative tones on every. cable channel and in every. newspaper that Putin.

ordered. Nobody killed like he had. He was his murderer. He had ordered his death. And, you know, I think you talked. about this before, but this was at a. time when the House Republicans. were holding up the $60 billion. from Biden. There is no reason in the world. that Putin would have him. By the way, like you go back 20. years to every president that ever. dealt with Putin, starting with Bill. Clinton and going on, and. every single one of them has said. he's an incredibly rational, restrained, trustworthy person.

It was only when he had to be turned. into the new Hitler did try halting. reverse. So he is obviously. rational. Whatever else you want to. say about him, he's very. sophisticated. He's very restrained. Actually, we can say that. conclusively. Exactly. And, so, like, why would he just. suddenly, you know, tell people. it's time for you to kill Navalny? Like it never made any sense. But we were just we were told this. And also, like, we have this, like, cartoonish idea that he, like, not only is manipulating. every event in the West, but also.

every event in Russia, like he's it. must never sleep, and he must. have cloned 100 of him. Given how much credit he gets for. having like, manipulated and. controlled every event in his. country and in our countries. But it then turned out. like just, you know, three weeks. ago, this happened so many times. before that the intelligence. community admits that there's no. evidence whatsoever that he. participated in any way, let alone. ordered or requested or wanted. nobody's death. And we obviously have the you know,

we're always told like we have. everything in the Kremlin, like. under this microscope of. surveillance. And you know, how many times this. has happened where media outlets. have made some kind of search and. now Russian prisons are incredibly. brutal, like a lot of countries are. They're very, very cold. They don't get good medical care. So I have no, I it's not surprising. that a prisoner put in the most. brutal Russian prisons would. die, but that's a. completely different claim than. what they were saying, which was. that Putin had ordered him killed.

And that if you. look at how many times, you. know, there was this like story in. The New York Times, exactly when. Trump was trying to withdraw from. Afghanistan that the CIA planted. with the New York Times and Charlie. Savage, the claim that the. Russians had put bounties on the. heads of American soldiers, and. we're paying the Taliban money. for every American soldier that they. were killed. And then when Liz. Cheney and pro-war Democrats were. working together to prevent and. block Trump's what I would rather. withdraw from, Afghanistan, that. was the only story they cited.

They kept saying, how can we leave. when the Russians are, you know, paying to we're going to reward. Russia. And then three months later. or two months later, the. intelligence community has very. little confidence that that even. happened. That has been the story of. Russiagate from the very beginning. I mean, every single claim that came. out as part of Russiagate, I mean, they they unleash Robert Mueller. for 18 months with the dream. team of prosecutors, unlimited. subpoena power, unlimited. amounts of money. And he then submitted a report when. he was done with his investigation. that said we could not find evidence.

to establish what became the core. conspiracy in the whole thing that. initiated this scandal, that drowned. our politics for three years, which. was that the Trump campaign colluded. with the Kremlin to break into. or hack into the emails. of the DNC and John Podesta. And everybody just was like, okay, I guess we'll just move on to. something else. Like the editor in. chief of the new of The York Times. said, we have to confront the fact. that what we've let our readers. to believe was going to happen, that. this information was going to be. discovered, these smoking guns. Robert Mueller was going to, you.

know, unleash it all, and everyone. was going to go to prison. None of it turned out to be true. This whole story was a fraud. This was the scandal. that the media drowned our politics. in for three years, starting with. the middle of the of 2016. up until 2018 or. 2019. So again, I'm sorry to interrupt. you. I'm on the way to explaining. Navalny. I really want to hear that. But you just passed over. one of the most interesting moments. in the last ten years, which was the. hack a hack. I don't know what was the theft.

of emails from the DNC. and from John Podesta's personal. Gmail account that wound up on. Wikileaks, and the Russians were. blamed for that. I thought from the. first day, I don't know, but I. suspected that was not true. What is true about that? So let me just preface that, because. I know how people react to these. things. Like if there's something. that gets presented. and then implemented as gospel, and the minute you challenge it, you're accused of being like a. crazed conspiracy theorist because. there's something everybody knows is. true. So let me just say, if you look at the last, say, 40. years of American history, the one.

thing that is, is a constant. is that so many of the things we are. told are not just true, but. unquestionably true. The most consequential things end. up being complete lies the. claim that led us into. the Vietnam War that caused the. Senate to authorize the military. force in Vietnam, was a claim about. the Gulf of Tonkin. That was a. complete and total fabrication. for the claim about other. claims that led us into the Iraq war. that everybody was so certain of was. a complete and total lie. The thing that drives me the.

craziest to this day, that I feel. has never got enough attention, is. that one that reporting happened. from the New York Post, based on the. documents from Hunter Biden's laptop. about what they were doing in Ukraine, in China, everybody in. the media united to say this. was Russian disinformation. When all along that, archive was completely authentic. It had nothing to do with Russia. And it wasn't just information. So many times were told things so. definitively that end up being. proven to be lies. Russiagate. Another example. So the question of how. those documents made their way to. Wikileaks, obviously, Wikileaks.

insists that. they had nothing to do with the. Russians and didn't get it from the. Russians. Now, that may be. true. And yet at the same time, the. Russians say, used a mental. cutout. Yeah. So Wikileaks might think they're. telling the truth. They might actually. be telling the truth, but it doesn't. say that Russia wasn't involved. Their problem is it's that there are. a lot of people who. oftentimes won't say it, but. who in public. But we'll tell you in private, I. mean, like very well-connected. people, that. they radically. disbelieve the claim that the.

Russians hacked it. And the and the thing is, Aaron. Mateo is one of the best people, most knowledgeable people on this. But there really isn't. a lot of evidence that the Russians. did the hacking. You know, this firm that they got. is a Democratic Party propaganda. firm, which is CrowdStrike. The FBI purposely hit. a lot of the information that would. have been necessary to examine it. I'm not saying the Russians didn't. hack it, but I'm just saying. conceptually, if you don't question. especially the truths that are most. aggressively shoved down your throat.

after everything we've seen. I think you're an extremely gullible. person. And in this case specifically, there's also a lot of, holes in that story. And I think the big problem in this. is was always my problem with. Russiagate from the start, was. not that the Trump. campaign and the Trump. administration was being sabotaged. by the U.S security state with a. evidence free, scandal. that did bother me journalistically, this evidence free assertion. that dominate our politics, but. bother me much more was.

the real agenda obviously was to. blame Russia for everything. to such an extent that the Americans. started once again viewing Russia. as its existential enemy, to the. point where American diplomats. couldn't speak with Russian. diplomats in Washington. Everybody was petrified of meeting. with the Russian because they would. be accused of being a Russian spy. You're talking about the country. with the largest stockpile of. nuclear weapons, and I believe. there's a straight line from the. Russiagate fraud, from convincing. people to feed on this anti-Russian. narrative to what.

we're doing in Ukraine. Which is sitting on the brink of. nuclear. Which Joe Biden said has brought the. the world closer to the brink of. nuclear catastrophe than anything. since the 1962 missile Cuban. missile crisis. And for some reason, we're willing. to risk what even Joe Biden. says is this massive risk of. nuclear war that the atomic bomb, the Bulletin of Atomic Scientists. has said, brought the world closer. to midnight, which is. extinction level, catastrophe. We're willing to risk all that over.

what? I mean, it was Obama who. always said we have no vital. interest in Ukraine. We obviously. have no vital interest in Ukraine. And so, so. much of this, you know, kind of. in deliberate intent. to once again convince Americans. that Russia was our grave enemy, was. the existential threat, was. interfering in our democracy based. on so many lies, had a. lot of geostrategic implications. and goals, as well as domestic. political ones. What's the truth of Navalnys death.

to Putin? Kill him. I mean, I can't pretend to know. I know that the U.S. Intelligence Committee, the U.S. intelligence agency, admits he. had no role in a Barney's death, or. at least what we were told that he. ordered it. Yeah, I. again, I think it's very possible. that Nnamani died from the kind of. conditions that people often died. from in prison. Yes, those are very brutal. And it's extremely cold. in those parts of Russia. Yeah, exactly. And you're not exactly like given. heaters in your cells and blankets. I'm sure he was treated very poorly.

And so you can make an argument, I. guess that like Russia, the Russian. government ethically is responsible. for that. But what we were told was. that Putin ordered it, and that was. a complete and utter lies. Like so many of the things we were. told definitively about Russia and. the Russian government over the. last, you know, 8 or 9 years. It's one of the most insane. disinformation campaigns sustained, enduring and consequential. disinformation campaigns that comes. from the very people who insist. that they are the sole guardians. combating the dangers of. disinformation.

When does America become a. free and honest country again? I think that there. are a lot of encouraging signs, even though they seem negative. I love the fact, for example, that Americans hate. the media and distrust the media. pretty much more than any group. that exists except for pedophiles, and the margin is not that large. I think it's incredibly well. deserved. Like, Americans. have an intuitive understanding.

that, you know, corporate journalism, that the. dominant wing of the media has. renounced their journalistic. function. And our propagandist, they. don't trust them. They believe that. they lie on purpose for political. ends. All of that is completely. true. So they're turning away more and. more from these media outlets. They don't trust them any longer. They're stunning. You know, they're. they're gigantic media. conglomerates. As you know, you work. for one. They have a lot of. influence and power, but less than. they did before. And again, for me, the cause of the. free internet, it's the reason why I. moved my show to rumble and moved.

everything to rumble. It's one of the few platforms truly. devoted to preserving a space of. free speech on the internet, which for me is the biggest cause. because the internet and the ability. to use it to challenge. establishment orthodoxies to. organize against corrupt power. centers is, for me, the real cause of hope. But that only can happen if the. internet is protected as a. free weapon, and that's what's being. assaulted. Establishment sectors. always know the greatest threat to. them. They always seek to destroy it. or to commandeer it.

And that's what this whole. fabricated disinformation. expertise that appeared overnight. after 2016, like these are the. people who are the disinformation. experts, these groups that are now. designed to identify disinformation. that get censored. All of that is about eliminating. dissent from the internet and. and disguising political censorship. as some sort of apolitical, expertise or science safety. measure. Yeah, online safety experts are. online disinformation experts. Like where did this credential come.

from? It's a it's a fake credential, like, but, you know, like Nina. Yanukovich is like an online. disinformation expert. Have you ever heard her speak, like, would you trust that woman to, like, even identify letting go truth. of anything, let alone like a. floating arbiter of what? True it is true and false to the. point that what she decrees is false. gets censored. But that's the industry. What really happened is. in 2016, you had these dual traumas. to Western liberalism. writ large. One was the decision of. the British people to leave the EU, which was an a, an extraordinary.

thing for a country to do, followed. three months or four months later by. Donald Trump's obviously traumatic. victory over Hillary Clinton. From a liberal perspective, I mean, like real trauma, like psychologists. were saying, they're they've been. flooded with patients who are. neurotic and, like, can't cope with. reality because of their. devastation, that Hillary Clinton. lost, that like, it's like a real. thing. And what they decided, meaning like. liberal Western elite was that we. could no longer afford a free. internet because when the internet. is free, they can't control how. people think, how they behave and.

how they vote. And that is when you can trace, you can follow the emergence of this. extremely well-funded disinformation. industry that was designed. to assert an authority. over controlling what information. is isn't online. So for me, as long as a. free internet continues to exist, you see this all throughout the. West. In the democratic world, people are abandoning their faith. in institutions of authority. And that abandonment of faith and. trust in institutions of authority. for me, is the most promising.

development. I think. I couldn't agree with you more. I would say it's followed. in the close second position. by the collapse of the neocon. governor of South Dakota, Kristi Noem. I mean, I've never seen a. more instant act of self. destruction. So how would you describe it? Like give me the timeline on Kristi. Noem, who, by the way, is like a. screaming neocon and. sort of a conventional. liberal posing as a conservative or. whatever? I mean, I've had a lot of. problems. Kristi Noem over the years.

makes me say that people bought her. bullshit. But what happened in Kristi Noem. makes me think that Americans are. really nice people. Actually, it turns out, and that was. reaffirmed for me. But describe. what? Yeah. I mean, first of all, she's. always been an obvious lightweight. I mean, she got it like, you know, elected to the House in South. Dakota, working her way through the. political system. And then from that became governor. And I think people attributed to her. a lot more talent and substance. because of that than she actually. had. So she was never like, an. impressive force at all.

She's a very, like, mindless. kind of herd animal who just follows. whatever dominant ideology she has. to embrace in order to advance her. career. Right. But I think her calculation. was this kind of culture war. calculation that if she. talked about what she perceives to. be these, like, farming. values, that it was going to provoke. the disgust and anger of the Liberal. and that conservatives would rise in. her defense and say, no, these are. the kinds of traditional values that. have been lost and that the American.

liberal elite are too divorced from. The problem is, is that. Not putting bullets into the skulls. of puppies in order to kill. them because you hate them isn't. just in a liberal elite value. One of the things that has happened. is that Americans love their dogs. For a lot of really interesting. reasons. I think it gives people a. sense of spirituality, of. connection, all the things that have. been lost when, you know, when we. now live in cities and work in. cubicles, right? People create this kind of. connection. People don't have. children they don't like across the. political spectrum, and dogs open.

people up. The dogs have evolved. to love and be loyal, trusted companions of hue, of humans. and humans, to dogs. A very deep bond developed over. thousands of years of evolution. So there's a lot of things she could. have done that might have worked in. that way. But talking about how. she pumped this puppy's. skull full of bullets because, quote, I hated that dog. is something that provoked. almost universal contempt. And that was gave me a lot of. optimism. And it was even a word.

story. Like, if you listen to her. audiobook, she has an audiobook. where she tells the whole story. She shot the dog, but. didn't kill it. She had to go back. to her track while the dog was. suffering and from a wound. She had to then kill it with a. second shot. She then took a goat like. minutes later that she also hated. because she said it smelled and was. mean, put them in the same gravel. pit and murdered him. And then she tells the story. that her brother and her uncle. are. I think that's two close. relatives. Said when she came back, we.

heard about this Sykes rampage. of animal slaughter that you went. on. We're going to get out of here. before you shoot us. And this was in her book that she. read in her own voice, like even the. members of her family thought she. was like a psychopath. to the point where she was being. endangered. They were in danger. They were endangered because she was. off on some, like, murderous. rampage. And how she thought that that. would engender any sympathy. for her of any kind, rather. than making her look like this. deranged monster.

is completely beyond me. Well, she was trying to pose as. some sort of rural. Exactly, exactly. And as someone who actually has bird. dogs and hunts them a lot. It was preposterous. Like she has no idea what she's. talking about. She shot the dog. She killed her own puppy because the. dog chased and killed. chickens. Now it's a bird. Dog, right? Chickens are birds. It's instinct is to do that if you. get those dogs. Of course. And. And the idea that this is, like, common in rural America. But it's bird.

It's in the. Nation against farmers. I go farmers just go around like. repeatedly murdering their dogs the. minute that they don't like their. personality. She could have obviously given it. away to all kinds of animal rescue. groups. There were all sorts of. things she could have done. But I do think it was that. calculation. But it was a huge. miscalculation. I do think there's. like this legitimate conflict. between, you know, East Coast. cosmopolitan liberals and people. and like more traditional farming. communities, and that that's a real. issue. But it's not about.

murdering your dogs. And then. I say it's it's cruelty. masquerading as strength. Well, I. Think cruelty is not strength. Strong people are not cruel at all. Why would they be strong? People are compassionate, actually. Right. I think we need to. inflict gratuitous. suffering or death on others. is a sign of extreme. physical and moral weakness. And this is why you see all these. people in Washington, neocons.

like Bill Kristol and David Frum, but then also like people, I go and. see Graham and you see this in the. British commentariat where, you know, they had this empire that. they've now lost. There's this like weak, broken, impotent, irrelevant, marginalized empire. And they speak about the glories. and importance of war more than. anybody, because it's a way that. they feel strong and purposeful. And you have all these people in. Washington who. constantly, whenever war is. proposed, immediately embrace it,

because it's a way that they get. to feel strong themselves, like. compensating for the internal. weakness and cowardice that they. have. I mean, if you live your whole. life and you never display moral or. physical courage, you know. that about yourself. It pains you. And instead of then doing something. that requires courage, you instead. send other people to go risked. their lives in a war that you. cheerlead. It's like such a psychologically. warped way of finding it. It's like Stolen valor. It's it's a it's it is. obviously courageous to go and.

fight in war for cause, but not. to send other people to fight. in a war for cause that requires no. courage at all. But that is the kind of courage that. in Washington, people. constantly embrace in lieu of. actual courage. It's really like a psychological. pathology, and it's so transparent. The weaker the leader, the more arbitrary and cruel. to other people. The leader is. Yeah. And you see it on the interpersonal. level too, like the way, you know, people who treat people. who have less power than them, who.

have less influence in them, who. have less, control. There are a lot of people who abuse. those kind of people. And it's. almost always because those people. are weak, and that's the way they. feel strong people who are secure. in their own strength treat. everybody, as you say. compassionately. I think that extends to animals as. well. How many dogs you have? 26 at home. And then realizing that that. was unsustainable. We then started this shelter where. we have another like 200 or so, why do. You have so many dogs? It just happened organically. I mean, both my husband and I love.

dogs. We started rescuing dogs. And then, you know, I remember when. we had five, we were like, no, five. year limit. And then like, you know, someone. calls up and says, oh, I just found. two dogs that were hit by a car on. a street. And they need, you know, surgeries or they're going to die. They're suffering. And we were like, okay, let's let's take those. Because what's different between 5. and 7? And then you're like, at. seven and you're like, yeah, what's. I'm 27 and nine. And then that's how you got to 26. dogs. But you know, there's they're all. rescue dogs. They're all dogs who. have been found in the street by us. usually, but but also by friends.

who are in various states of. distress. Lots of them have been. abandoned. They're like, you know, petrified. and traumatized and abused. And when you have, you know, the ability. of like the blessing of financial. security, you can use it for pure. material consumption, just buying. more things, you know, trying to get. another house, a private plane, whatever. Honestly, it just provides me with. no happiness or satisfaction. At all. It really doesn't.

It just doesn't do anything for me. and the ability to use it. to help those in need, gives me so much more happiness and. gratification. You can almost say. it's like a selfish endeavor, because it just provides me a. happiness that other things don't. And, you know, also like when you. have a shelter, there's nothing more. beautiful than connecting. a dog with a family and then hearing. like three months later about how. that dog is integrated into the. family's life and seeing pictures of. that dog laying on a sofa, you know, with this family, when.

they had been on the streets of Rio. de Janeiro, like virtually dead. from starvation or from disease, and. you nursed them back to health, and. then you place them in a family, like you have to figure out what are. the things that actually give you. meaning and purpose and happiness. liven up and not. These are not the. things that society tells us are. the things we should strive after. And that was the lesson I had to. learn by chasing. all the things that society teaches. you you're supposed to chase. And then when I grab them and. I thought it was going to make me. happy and found it actually made me. more vacant and emptier, then I knew that I had to find.

the things that actually gave me. happiness. I think it's one of the. most important lessons you can. learn. How old were you when you made these. realizations? I mean, I always loved dogs, like. when I was young, like we had these. two dogs that lived next door, and I. was like, get home from school. And the first thing I would do is. look for them and call them, and. they would hang out in my house. And I remember they just open things. up for, for me and so well, but it was really like. in my late 30s and early 40s. when I had like professional success. and financial stability.

And none of that was, you know, my. work was known and it wasn't really. providing a lot of personal. happiness. And so I was like, I don't want to. keep chasing after things. that don't actually provide me. happiness, even if society respects. those that. we started being open more to the. things that gave us happiness. And like ultimately, I'll tell you this quick story, which is, I never wanted. to be a father, ever. It was never part of my identity. I never thought I would be a good. father. I hate imposing authority on other. people. I hate telling other people.

what to do. And my husband, I was always like. being a dad was his dream. It was who he was. And he spent years, like, convincing, persuading, cajoling, pressuring, manipulating me to want. to adopt kids. We would go out to. dinner, and coincidentally, there'd. be a couple at the next table who he. had arranged to be there. And we were talking. They had. adopted kids. And when I talked. about all the joys of it, took years. to convince me. And when I. finally said yes, we miraculously. found the two perfect kids in this. like orphanage in northeastern. Brazil. And the transition, obviously, to.

our lives couldn't have been. more radically or abruptly. different. It's like, you know, adopting a kid out of poverty in. Mississippi and bringing them to. like, you know, high rise apartment. in Manhattan. It's obviously. everything is different. And I think the thing that helped. most in the transition was soon as. they got there, we were like, you. have all these dogs. They had a dog at their orphanage, so they already like dogs. And we were like, pick one and that. dog is going to be your dog. You take care of it. You say, but. and they picked like one of the. sweetest, like, most affectionate. dogs in the pack. And she became like the thing they.

were always hugging. And I think she did more to like, give them comfort and security and. safety being yanked out of that one. environment and put in a totally new. one. And so the capacity for dogs. to like, transform people. or, you know, you know, there's all kinds of studies about. how animals can reach autistic. children when nothing else can. or even, like, rehabilitate. prisoners. You know, you get these like. hardened, violent criminals. Now they have these dog programs. where they take them in and they. connect to these dogs and care for. them in ways they've never done with.

humans before. Obviously, there's something, you. know, that's the reason why, if you. see cruelty to animals, not just. dogs, it's a thing that, like, riles. people up the most on the internet. Obviously, animals are here. They're beautiful. They're majestic. We've always hunted them and killed. them for food, but we've also. obviously have something in us that. makes us feel an extraordinary. empathy to them. And to me, they're. like the thing, one of the most. beautiful things the planet has to. offer. And especially dogs. I mean, I don't I don't think we. understand why dogs are. here, why we have this relationship.

with them. Dogs are the only carnivore. capable of killing people that. people have ever domesticated, and. that domestication occurred like, much earlier than we ever thought. Right. I think at the beginning of. recorded history. And you see those old fossil. drawings of like, man and dog. 100%. Yeah. And, you know, it does make you think. that there's some purpose, some. supernatural element here, like, what is that? I mean, that's the thing is, you. know, I've seen just over and over. and over, not just in my work with. dogs, but personally, like in my.

relationship with dogs, they. can do things for you and reach. you and connect you empathetically. and emotionally in a way that other. human beings can't. They obviously you, you know, they perceive things physically that. we can perceive. They hear sounds. that we can't. They anticipate things. They feel things in the atmosphere. that are threats and react to them. before we even know that they're. here. So we know they have. perceptive abilities that human. beings don't proven. By, quote, science. Yeah. I mean, yeah, but I'm saying even. emotionally, like. you can deceive another human. about the state of your emotion so.

much more easily than you can. deceive your dog. Like your dogs know when you're sad. They know when you're happy. They know when you're excited in a. way that you can't hide that from. them. Like they just perceive it. They're so connected to you. And obviously there's the whole. thing about teaching, about. unconditional love and loyalty. that we can learn from dogs as well. But yeah, you just see, and that's. why I think the Kristi Noem thing. was such a that because there are. very few things at this point that. can unite everyone. in America, all Americans, independent of political ideology or.

socioeconomic background or anything. else. And the fact that she was. so cruel to this dog. created a revulsion that. transcended almost every single. category. She really united people. in contempt for what she had done, and I found the ability of dogs to. do that so fascinating. It's one of the one of the great. joys in life. I've experienced it, you know, really intensely. Let me ask you about Brazil. So you have you have this kind. of, fearlessness about you,

that puts you in these coalitions. for a time, and then you sort of. You're abandoned by them and. attacked by from allies or whatever. But you're in this weird position. where you're living in a country. that the former president, Jair. Bolsonaro, at one point threatened. to put you in prison. Now. And they brought. I was criminally indicted. I forgot about that. And now Lula is running. your country. I guess. Sort of. At least a name. And name in. Name. And there's a very left regime. in charge. Left, whatever that is.

But, you know, global. type government. How has life in Brazil changed. under this new government and how. has it affected you? So there's this phrase, Brazil is not for amateurs, which is basically designed to. indicate that there's really. oftentimes no ideology or no, like obvious political alliances. It's very transactional. Usually the people running Brazil. are not the president or the elected. officials or these permanent power.

factions similar to in Washington. And you know, my, I never wanted to be involved in. politics, but my husband ended up as. a, you know, elected official. He was first elected as a city. council, in Rio and. then an elected member of Congress. in Brazil. I started, Brazilian. version of The intercept. The intercept Brazil. So and I did a lot of reporting. during the Snowden thing on Brazil. So I became very integrated into the. Brazilian media. He was obviously. integrated to Brazilian politics. And so we both were part of this.

kind of faction that we never really. wanted to be part of. But like just. takes you there went the. the most significant reporting I did. was in 2019, where there was this sprawling. anti-corruption probe and the judge. was leading it, became this national. hero. And when Bolsonaro was elected. in 2018, a big. break from prior, Brazilian elections, where usually. center left wing parties won, he made that judge who. got the anti-corruption probe.

The most powerful person in the. country. He was the minister of, not. just the Minister of Justice and. National Security. It was like a kind of this fuzed. position specifically for him that. put the entire security service. under his control. About two months until. he was a judge. But he then left the. judge to become part of that. And he led the probe. that put Lula in jail. When Bolsonaro was elected in 2018, Lula was in prison on. corruption charges that this judge, Sergio Moro, oversaw and. convicted war. There's not a jury trial in Brazil,

convicted him and then sentenced him. to 11 years in prison. I mean, Lula was a two term. president, a giant on the world. stage left office with an 86%. approval rating, and they turned him. into a criminal and arrested a lot. of other, people on. corruption charges, like. billionaires and oligarchs, in a. way that a lot of people were. supportive of at first, including. me. Two months in the Bolsonaro. presidency, I got a contact from a. source who had hacked. into the phones of. that judge. Prosecutors, the most powerful. people in the country, said there.

was evidence of all kinds of. corruption. Turned it over to me. The entire file, similar. to what happened with Snowden. And we were able, based on that. reporting, to. expose this judge as one of the most. corrupt people in the country. I mean, he used corruption and. illegal means to put the. people he wanted to imprison, including Lula. And so, six months after we began. the reporting, Lula was let out of. jail. As a result of our reporting, I became enemy number one, along. with my husband of the Bolsonaro. movement. I mean, just.

it's hard to overstate the level of. threats we got, the attacks on our, personal lives, like the fabricated. stories, you know, and then. ultimately culminating in a criminal. indictment that charged me with. 126 felonies as a coconspirator. with my source. So it wasn't a game, you know? And Bolsonaro hated me, but you. Never did you ever consider just. running a what? You're not Brazilian. by birth? No. But by this point, you know, not only is my husband Brazilian, but by now we have children and. they're Brazilian, so. And I'm a permanent permanent.

resident. I consider America my. country. I'm a citizen in the United. States. That's the only country of. which I'm a citizen. Never have. been. But. you know, the fact that my children. are Brazilian, I see it as their. country and our country that I want. to fight for, not flee from. I never for a moment consider. leaving. I just I absent. some very imminent threat. I just would never do that. Even if you can't look. yourself in the mirror like Snowden. taught me that a lot. You know, Snowden did something and. sort of Julian Assange that. they knew had a serious risk of. putting them in prison. Daniel. Ellsberg, one of my childhood. heroes, did the same.

And so that, to me, became kind of. the thing that I aspire to. I like the idea of running away from. a threat because you're scared. of something, and sacrificing your. cause you believe is right. would just make me look at myself. in a very negative way for the rest. of my life. I would not want that on. my conscience. I wouldn't want to. think of myself that way, or my life. having been formed by fleeing. or by running away out of fear. Amen. So. it was very trying, though, and but. we stayed and, you know, everything. we did, ultimately.

ended up, having a huge effect. to change the course of the country. I mean, the war was all out of. prison. His convictions were. reversed. This judge went from universally. beloved hero to, you know, a hated. figure. He ended up leaving the. Bolsonaro government. So that all happened. And we were heroes of the left and. hated more than anything by the. Brazilian. Right. At the same time, when. Bolsonaro was elected, there started. to become this reaction to him, not. just by the Brazilian lot, but by. the Brazilian establishment,

by the Brazilian center right, very. similar to the way that in the. United States there was kind of. never Trump center right. establishment tearing ins. All of our institutions of authority. had this like extreme. fear of Trump because he represented. a populist uprising, this like. challenge to establishment power. The same thing happened in Brazil. And you had this one judge on the. Supreme Court and supported by a lot. of others. He was never a leftist. He's not a leftist. He comes from this very center right. politics. He's sort of like a Paul. Ryan or Mitch McConnell figure.

And he became the leader. of this effort to crush the. Bolsonaro movement and Bolsonaro. himself using extralegal. means, just like we're seeing in. United States with these, fabricated. prosecutions of warfare against. Donald Trump. And despite the fact that I was a. hero of the left and utterly hated. by Bolsonaro and his movement to the. point they really tried to imprison. me or deport me, I began. speaking out very vocally against. this judge, and one of the main. tactics he used was political. censorship. They started imprisoning. people for questioning Covid,

but particularly for defending the. Bolsonaro movement. You started. having exiles like journalists and. bloggers and activists fleeing the. country for very good reason, to the. United States to avoid prosecution. at the hands of this one judge, who. became completely obvious. But he became a hero of the left. because he was basically. imposing authoritarianism and. tyranny against Bolsonaro. and his movement. And this was a guy who, because he. was on the center right, was hated. by the left for years, you know, as a racist, fascist, all the things. they call people.

And when they hit them. But he became through this. consolidation of power and his. use of it in ways that are. classically authoritarian. As a hero of the left and the number. one figure of the hated right, and I. was the one of the only. people who was not a Bolsonaro user, who was not on the Bolsonaro right. to speak out. And I didn't just speak out. I mean, I denounced it constantly. I'm a columnist of the biggest. Brazilian paper. I was using my. column to just attack and. constantly. And he was the same kind of hero. as that prior judge was who had the.

anti-corruption probe, who whose. reporting we were able who what. we were able to use our reporting to. expose. And so overnight, I. started to become an enemy of the. left and made a lot of new. friends, among Bolsonaro. Easterners, including the ones who. are trying to imprison me just two. years earlier. And I have to say, like. You never really think you're. going to see actual tyranny. And this is the closest I've. ever gotten like you have. We've had authoritarian, things in the United States that. have happened.

It's what impelled me to write about. journalism, the abuses of civil. liberties after the war on terror in. the name of terrorism, but nothing. like a figure of this sort. And this is the first time. my career as a journalist where. I ever had. a fear of what would happen. if I actually criticized this. political figure. And, you know, you're living in a. repressive regime when you. feel a fear. Even somebody like myself, who has. a lot of protection, a lot of. platform, a lot of international. notoriety, but I really did worry.

about what would happen if I was. going to criticize him, because. other people who did were punished. and put into prison. And I've been doing it very vocally. and loudly since they've attacked. similar people. He opened a criminal. investigation into Michael. Shellenberger and the journalist. who did the Bridget Brazil Twitter. files. They they actually. opened a criminal investigation into. them. They've never done it against. me. I think, again, because I. have a certain kind of platform and. protection, including the fact that. the current president of Brazil. is out of prison because of my.

reporting, something he's often. publicly stated. The minute he got out of prison, the. first person he called when he got. home was me to thank me for. everything I had done. So I think it's very difficult to do. that. But again, like if you have. that kind of platform, I think. you're obligated to use. it in ways that other. people can't because of their fear. Because if you don't, then who will? Who is the judge? The Alessandra de Moraes is his. name. It's the person that Elon Musk. began attacking because, you know, Rumble, which is where my. show is, is no longer.

accessible in Brazil unless you use. a VPN. I can't watch my own show. in Brazil because if you try and. access Rumble in Brazil, you'll get. a, thing saying this. site is blocked. Because of how many censorship. orders Rumble was getting from the. Brazilian courts that they refused. to comply with. And that was what Elon Musk vowed to. do, was, he said, we're getting so. many unjust censorship orders. that we're going to refuse to obey. them, even if it means we get kicked. out of Brazil. Now, he didn't follow. through on that, but the fact that.

he made that a scandal, he talked about this judge, Alexandre Guimaraes, being this kind. of like, repressive figure, created a kind of debate that was. well needed. But Twitter. didn't end up following through. They actually ended up saying, no, no, we will obey all the censorship. orders in order to stay in Brazil. But, you. know, this is real repression, but. it's not a left wing kind of. repression. It doesn't come from. Lula. This guy is not a leftist. What he is, is part of that. establishment power that was.

fearful of and contemptuous. of Bolsonaro and used authoritarian. power to stop the Bolsonaro movement. to protect establishment authority. Very, very similar to what's. happening in United States with. respect to Trump and his movement. How long can you stay there? I mean, I'm going to stay in Davao. and get my kids. You know, teenagers there. There are now teenagers there. Their life is in Brazil. They're Brazilian. They've never. known any in the country. I'm not. going to uproot them to. force them to live in another. country.

I'm obviously not going to abandon. them there, though I think by far. most important to me. And I feel like the work I'm doing. is in defense of a country that I. want to be free because that's. theirs. I'm not saying there's never. anything that could force me to. leave Brazil. If I really felt an. immediate, imminent threat. to my personal safety or my. family's. Who knows? But if you fact, if you find. yourself running away from those. kind of fears, it defines. the person that you are. Completely agree. And as you as you said.

correctly, you know you can't face. yourself if you know that you're a. coward. On the other hand, Brazil, I think. is a wonderful country, for the. record, is also the kind of country. where they could, you know, have you. killed to make it look like crime? Yeah. And I mean, you know, obviously during the Snowden. reporting, we took a lot of. precautions because we had an. archive that was. the most valuable archive, not just. of the U.S. government, but every. other government on the planet into. all kinds of non-state actors. I would carry around with me on my. backpack, the archive and. thumbnails, because I didn't want to. leave them at home.

That contained, you know, some of. the most sensitive documents that. exist on this planet. There were obviously a lot of. security risk, because the time we. had to have security at our house. constantly, security everywhere we. left. Same thing when I was doing. the reporting that freed Lula from. prison. We had constant threats to. our physical safety. I couldn't leave the house without. armed guards. Neither could my. husband or my kids. So, you know, I don't just walk. around freely on the street. because I realize that there are. threats that. But I'm not paranoid about them. I don't want to turn our house into. a fortress.

But, you know, you take precautions. against them. But there's never risk. that you can completely eliminate. Do you think that. my last question, do you think. this. the authoritarianism that's. obviously descending on the world, is it a permanent state? Is this accelerating, or is. this just a sort of an interlude. that we're going to laugh about. ruefully in ten years? Well, this is what the point I. always make, you know, because I. talk a lot about. on my show, which primarily has an.

American audience about what's. happening in Brazil. And I stress the reason. they should care isn't just because. Brazil is just a very large country. with huge resources and. a lot of importance on the. geopolitical stage, the second. largest in our hemisphere, which. would be reason enough. It's because the United States. is on exactly the same trajectory, maybe just a couple steps behind. And what all of these countries in. the democratic world are doing in. Western Europe, in Canada. You know, I was just in Canada. because there's a shockingly. repressive law that provides for.

prison sentences, for hate. speech on the internet, prison. sentences. Up to seven years. Yeah. And actually, if you're. accused of inciting or defending. genocide, you can be put into prison. for life under this bill. I mean, this bill is shocking. I went to Canada, to. do events against the central bar, not because I'm Canadian or care. back end up because what's happening. is every one of these countries is. using the other as a laboratory for. how far they can go. So every time one country takes. another step toward consolidating. control over the internet and what.

can and can't be said, that shows. other countries the space that. they now have to go forward as well. It's completely interconnected. Every time the EU or the UK. or Ireland or Canada or Brazil. take steps forward to consolidate. censorship control over the. internet. The norms change. Exactly and it completely. transforms. What the population. comes to think is normal. Again, though, is it inexorable. this move toward 1984? The internet is such a fascinating.

innovation because it has. such a dual edge potential. On the one hand, it can be. this unique and unprecedented. tool of emancipation and liberation. That was its promise and potential. On the other hand, it can also be a. tool of unprecedented coercion and. control because if it is. no longer free, if it can. be used as a method of ubiquitous. surveillance and information. control, I think it can become. a closed system that is almost. impossible to work your way out of.

And that's why to me, there is no. more important battle than. keeping the internet free. Free in terms of privacy and free in. terms of speech, because it is. increasingly the only way that we. really communicate and spread ideas. with one another. Does AI technology make that. more or less likely to happen? I think it makes it a lot more. likely to happen, and that's why it. was so alarming to see those. original, versions. of AI like ChatGPT. that obviously had all kinds of. political ideology imposed on it, where you couldn't even get factual.

answers to certain questions because. the designers of ChatGPT. wanted ideology, ideological. lines to supersede. factual accuracy. And so you would ask questions of. it, and the answers that you got. were completely dependent upon the. ideological perspective of. those who had designed it. And I found that extremely alarming. Is there any, indication. that that's going to change? I mean, again, it goes back. to what we talked about a little bit.

earlier, which was which is. that I think there is there's. extreme unrest and. dissatisfaction on the. part of populations in Western. governments that even if they don't. follow politics closely, even if. they're not very engaged, it's amazing that the biggest voting. bloc in the United States are people. who just don't vote, who choose not. to vote because they don't think it. matters one way or the other. And on some level, they're probably. right about that. But even people who aren't very. politically engaged have this. intuitive sense that. there's just something deeply.

corrupt about. power, factions and institutions. of authority. And I think that kind of. dissatisfaction that is being. exploited by some clever politicians. and positive ways or a negative. ways, is obviously a. prerequisite. If everybody is. content and happy and believes. they're free and that things. are going well, then it's impossible. to get people to uprise and change. But when they start really believing. that things are radically. awry, that's why. there's all these politicians who. have nothing in common other than.

the fact that they promise to hate. and wage war against the. establishment forces that are. controlling people's lives, that. people want those agents of. disruption and subversion. in there because they know that. the status quo is something that is. kind of very evil and very. repressive in that sense, is. incredibly important to preserve. Do you think that the. forces of light have a chance. against the forces of darkness? I think everybody who does what you. do or I do,

who wakes up and talks about. these issues and works on them, inherently has a sense of optimism, because if you didn't, you wouldn't. do it. What would be the point? The only reason to do any of these. things is because you believe that. what you're doing can actually have. an impact and make a positive, outcome and help contribute to a. positive outcome. So I really believe in the capacity. of human reason of human persuasion, but also just like an intuitive. sense that human beings have.

to understand almost intuitively. when they're being threatened, what. kind of when they're being deceived, when they're being, subject to corrupt. and abusive power. And all of history is uprisings. and rebellions and revolutions. against establishment, authority, including ones that. seemed completely entrenched and. vulnerable. I mean, the whole. enlightenment was to overthrow, you know, monarchs and churches. that had dominated intellectual life. for centuries. And we've seen that over and over.

again. I just think it's very hard. to look at human history and. conclude anything other than any. kind of structure that is built by. human beings can be wayward. against and torn down and replaced. by other human beings. And I absolutely think that the. tools are here. Those are the tools we have to. defend. Glenn Greenwald. Thank you. Yeah, it was good talk. We're always great talking. Thank you.