Glenn Greenwald: Dangerous New Escalation in Russia, & Our Blackmailed Politicians

I think we're watching the most evil. thing I've ever seen in my lifetime, which is the lame duck. administration leaving the next. administration with a world war, with a nuclear conflict by. allowing Ukraine a. proxy state of the United States to. strike within Russia. And I'll have one editorial comment. that I must let you go. But I think that people in. Washington misunderstand Vladimir. Putin and they think he's a monarch. with absolute power, which is not. true. And Russian politics is complex and. it's lively. And Putin is very. concerned with his approval rating. within Russia. He cannot appear weak.

That's a huge threat to him. He feels that I can confirm. And if he. can't hide attacks. on him by the United States through. Ukraine, either in Moscow or big. civilian casualties, I think he will have no choice, in his view, but to launch. a serious response against. Ukraine or some or NATO's countries. or possibly the United States. So this seems like. seems like the most reckless thing. that's ever happened in my life. I hardly have four words for.

it. Let me just say my overstating it. Do you think? No. No, not not even remotely. If so, let me just say specifically. what has been authorized? Yes. This is something that some.

NATO countries, including the United. Kingdom, have been pressuring the. Biden administration to do for quite. a long time, for at least a year. But going all the way back to. the beginning of 2022, this was an. option that they had, which is the. we have these these guided missiles. called it outcomes, which are very. powerful for attacking inside. Russia. You can guide them. specifically and very precisely to. where you want them to go. Obviously, you have to get. intelligence about where you want to. strike. And the reason we never permitted. the Ukrainians to use them is.

because the Ukrainians can't use. those missiles on their own. In other words, if they want to. launch these missiles, it's not just. the U.S. giving them the missiles. and then telling them they'll probably. go and use them. It requires the direct involvement. of the United States and or a major. country like France or the U.K. or Germany, because the. Ukrainians don't have the guiding. capability in order to know. how to launch these missiles. So this is not just us giving. them missiles and saying go. attack deep inside. Imagine if some major country, China, Iran, Russia, whoever.

gave missiles. to Canada, if we were at war with. them or Mexico or Cuba. and said, we're giving you these. specifically for you them to use. them inside the United States, we. would consider that a grievous act. of war, not just on the part of the. countries shooting them, but on the. part of the country, giving them. what Biden did here is so much. worse. He didn't just give. Ukrainians missiles and say, feel. free to use them inside Russia. We are going to participate. in the bombing of Russia, Naito. and or the United States because.

there's no way the Ukrainians can. launch these missiles on their own, which means we are now our military, our intelligence community are. participating in. missile attacks inside. the country of Russia. This is something that even the. Biden administration, for all their. hawkishness on Russia and Ukraine, feeding that war, fueling yet. preventing diplomatic resolutions. because they wanted this war even. they were unwilling to do it because. they understood the dangers of. the escalatory risks for. Joe Biden or whoever's acting in his.

name to do this. Just two weeks after. the country resoundingly. rejected governance by the. Democratic Party in the. administration and. on his way out as an 81. year old man, knowing. that he has about six weeks left in. office to just say, Yeah, I know. that these are massive risks, but. I'm willing to take them. I'm 81. I don't really care. And then to make it so much more. difficult for the following. administration to do. what they promised to do during the. campaign, which the American people.

voted for and wanted, which is to. resolve this war. Instead, we're risking. escalation with the world's largest. superpower. Nuclear power. Over what? Over what we I mean, placed in context, too. This is without precedent and. I think is Blinken I want to ask. about that in a second. But so in. 1956, Soviets invade. Hungary and murder a ton. of people. 61. They put nuclear weapons in. Cuba, 68. They invade Czechoslovakia, murder a.

bunch of people. Once again, these. are all, you know, incredibly. provocative acts, far more. provocative than invading eastern. Ukraine. And this is the middle of the Cold. War. And no American presidents, Democrats and Republicans in charge. during those periods. They didn't respond. by attacking Russia. I mean, there's nothing like this. ever happened. No one's ever been. this crazy. Well, this is, you know, my big breach with the left, my big. permanent split with whatever. they thought I was in terms of. We want them to. They hate. You. Yeah, I know.

And that all happened in. 2016 when out of nowhere, Russiagate. appeared. And I remember like it was. yesterday, the very first ad from. Hillary Clinton's campaign with this. menacing baritone voice. You know, what does Vladimir Putin. and Donald Trump have in common? What are they? What is Russia have. and Donald Trump? And journalistically, I just. couldn't believe it because it was. so redolent of. McCarthyism, which is a civil. libertarian ism. I found I was caught was like. one of the worst civil liberties of.

the 20th century. I agree. Yeah, I mean, you. go around just accusing people of. being Russian agents with no. evidence, destroying their. reputation, their lives, kind of. like what they're trying to do to. Tulsi Gabbard. Now, what they tried. to do for Donald Trump for the last. eight years. So just on that ground, I was kind of offended by it. journalistically. I was so skeptical of it because. when you have intelligence. agencies leaking anonymously, unverified claims to The Washington. Post in The New York Times and they. put it on the front page and their. Pulitzers for that, and that's. usually a sign that a huge.

disinformation campaign of deceit is. underway. That was the exact. method used, for example, to sell. the war on Iraq. to the American people. Was that kind of process that why. these intelligence agencies need to. be rooted out? But what Obama most. was that the climate. was deliberately created in. Washington, especially once Hillary. lost, and they blamed Russia for it, that any communications. With Russia. Anyone who visits. Russia, anyone who talks to a. Russian official is automatically. deemed sinister or.

treasonous. And as you said, during the Cold. War, which dominated our American. life for 50 years, Ronald. Reagan called the Soviet Union the. evil empire. They were infinitely more powerful, more threatening, more everything. than than Russia is now. We always communicated. with Soviet leaders. There were phones all over. Washington that rang to the. counterparts. They comment that they. communicated constantly. After Russiagate, there's basically. no communication any longer.

between the Russian leaders and. the Americans. On either side. And I should just say, I. Mean, not because Russia wanted. that. That was something that in. Washington got created. because they blamed Russia. and claimed that Russia Russia was. our existential enemy because of. their claim that they interfered in. the 2016 election. Before that, there was all the Obama. administration and the Putin. government cooperated in all sorts. of ways around the world, of course. And but it's it's the leadership of. the Republican Party, too. I had a conversation with the.

speaker of the House, Mike Johnson, and he was about to appropriate. tens of billions more for Ukraine. And they said, well, why don't you. check with Putin? Aren't you the speaker, the House. number three in line for the. presidency? What? What? Okay. I said, Bob, I'll see if. I can facilitate that. I'll call the press office. Kind of set you up when you talk to. Putin. No, absolutely not. Will not. Why? Imagine if he had, though. And that leaked. But. But I'm not excusing him. Why wouldn't he just say I mean, I'm. not attacking Mike Johnson. I guess I am attacking me, which I. don't know what I'm saying. I'm just. reporting what actually happened. I said, you know what?

Don't you have a moral duty. to get as much information about. this war before you fund. its continuation and the killing of. all these people? Shouldn't you no. more? No. I think it is important to say that. this war has been 100% bipartisan, although the Biden administration, as the leader of the executive. branch, is primarily responsible. The primary there's been. about, I would say, 5 or. 6 dozen anti-interventionist. Republicans, typically more Trump. supporters, both in the House and. Senate, who have spoken out from.

the beginning against funding this. war. But the vast majority. of Republicans, to the extent they. have a criticism or had a criticism. of the Biden administration at all. with respect to Ukraine, it was that. they didn't do enough. They didn't spend enough money on. Ukraine. They didn't give Ukraine. enough weapons. They didn't get more. involved, more heavily, more and. earlier than they should. But, you know, the. thing that you said about. encouraging Mike Johnson to speak to. Putin, which of course, as the third. in line to the presidency, as you. said, when they're proposing to. escalate a major war, of course, you. should want to understand the.

Russian perspective. This is what Tulsi Gabbard did. in 2017. when she was a member of Congress. and the Obama administration had. unleashed this billion dollar a year. CIA dirty war to. change the government of Syria, to. dislodge Bashar al Assad from. the government. And we fought along ISIS and Al. Qaida, who also wanted Assad. gone. We were told those were our. existential enemies for 15 years. We fought alongside them to do it. And so many of the weapons we sent.

ended up in the hands of al Qaeda. and ISIS and other Islamic radical. groups in Syria. And Tulsi Gabbard, as. a member of the military but also as. a member of Congress, have. constitutional responsibility to. authorize or authorize a war, wanted to go to Syria and see what. was happening for herself. And then she spoke with Syrian. officials and got an opportunity to. speak with the Syrian president. And based solely on that, she's now accused of being a Russian. agent, being a. some sort of, you know, treasonous. sympathizer of Bashar Assad. This is the jingoistic climate.

that has been created way worse than. what prevailed in the Cold War when. all we Nixon went to China, Reagan negotiated all kinds of arms. deals with the Soviets. This is now totally prohibited. It's like we live in a marvel. cartoon for children where. there's good guys and bad guys, where the good guys do not speak to. the bad guys and the. Good guys and dangerous Qaeda and. ISIS. They're the good guys. Yeah, we can fight with them because. they. To her point. I don't want to speak for Tulsi. Gabbard, our new director of. national intelligence nominee. But my view was.

I don't have any feelings about. Assad or Syria, but it's a fact. that that government protected. religious minorities, including an. ancient Christian community there. and the Alawites, of which he's won. in that country for a long time, he. and his dad. So why. are they my enemy exactly? I don't like what is why should I. be opposed to Assad in Syria? Why should I be opposed. to Vladimir Putin? Why was not supposed to be opposed. to the Soviets who are. anti-Christian? But now you have a. pro Christian president supposed to. be against him. Tell me why it. wasn't him. Explain to me why,

as a 55 year old American taxpayer, I should be against it. So first of all, I think the. principle is that and this is what. Donald Trump requires politically in. 2016 was. that we shouldn't be. involved in wars designed to. change the governments of other. countries, build, rebuild. their governments, transform their. societies, in part because. it's not our place to do it, and in. part because we're terrible at doing. it, because they have very complex, rich, long histories that American. intelligence officials and political.

leaders have no understanding. of whatsoever. Good language. I mean, they don't know anything. They know nothing. And we've proven that over and over. and all these failed attempts. But also, when it comes to. I mean, the policy gabbard's entire. worldview, and I have spoken. to her about this. I've interviewed. her about this. So I feel. comfortable saying this is that. she's not in any way antiwar, pacifist. She believes that we should be very. militarily aggressive against, say, terrorist groups that actually. want to attack the United States or. have done so, or American assets or. American interests on the world.

Her argument is, is that we should. not be involved in regime change. wars of the kind we did in Iraq that. she fought in, of the kind we did in. Syria, of the kind we did in Libya, of the kind that we did in Ukraine. in 2014 when we actually. engineered a coup on that most. sensitive part of the. Kind that we're trying to pull off. in Russia right now. The point of. this is to knock out Putin. Yeah. To to weaken that regime. and to. But the thing is, though, what you said about Putin is so. important, which is Putin's. critics. He doesn't have very many liberal. critics, meaning people to his left. Exactly. His real critics are.

hardcore nationalist. Exactly. And their criticism of. Him as a liberal. Who see him as weak or. insufficiently militaristic when it. comes to confronting the West. But clearly, on Ukraine, they wanted they want destruction. of Ukraine. They're there. A lot of them are enraged. And as you say, the. Russian government has taken the. position, warned the United States. government privately and publicly. that any use. of these missiles. involving as they do, direct. U.S. or Naito involvement in their.

launching against Russia will be. seen as the entrance of the United. States and NATO's belligerence in. this war as a war against Russia as. World War three. And he will have to treat it as. such, even though he's been very. constrained, even though he clearly. doesn't want a broader war. There are a lot of people inside. Moscow who do wield a lot of power, who do and who who will demand. that he treated as such. Why would why wouldn't they? We are attacking Russia. We're shooting missiles inside. Russia. So I think, as. you've said, I don't think we can.

say it enough. So much of this has been conducted. in bad faith, but also so much of. the bad faith has been informed by. ignorance or uninformed by. ignorance, not informed at all. And I think that people really think. that Putin is an absolute dictator. who can do whatever he wants, and. that is not the case. It's not the case. Super complex. place. A lot of smart people in. Russia, complicated political. situation. So I agree completely. We're pushing him toward that. The view I think. I know from. Putin is that Blinken is driving. this and that Blinken has a lot of.

hostility, is reckless, but has a lot of hostility toward. Russia. That has nothing to do with. the United States at all. Do you think that's true? You think. Blinken is driving this? Yeah, I mean, I think I think. Blinken, Jake Sullivan, that's kind of the brain trust. as it is. Obviously, Joe Biden has no. involvement in this whatsoever, which I think, you know, has been. a an issue which we've. shockingly ignored. Everyone saw what Joe Biden was. long before that debate. Yes, everyone knew it.

The only people who didn't say so. are the media and Democratic allies. After the debate, it became. untenable for them to deny it any. longer that this is an old man. who has lost his cognitive. capabilities, yet he's still the sitting president. of the United States. And you had the vice president. understandably doing nothing. for the last four months other than. working on her own empowerment. through the campaign. She obviously. wasn't involved ever in any decision. making, let alone when she became. the nominee. So the question has. been all these consequential.

decisions we made deploying. massive military assets to the. Middle East, making declarations. about when we would go to war in the. Middle East and for whom escalating. the war in Ukraine now. authorizing the use of these long. range missiles is obviously not. coming from Joe Biden. He barely understands where he is. It's it's not a character. flaw on his part, but is just a. disability, a clear disability. He's obviously not making any of. these decisions. I do think that. if you look at the national security. crowd that emerged from the.

Obama presidency, especially the people who are. associated with the State Department. run by Hillary Clinton, then John. Kerry, even before Russiagate. in 2016, they had an obsession. with Russia. In fact, when Hillary Clinton left. the administration as secretary of. state and wrote her book. Hard Choices, the only areas. in which you were critically was. critical of Obama was her view. that he wasn't willing to confront. Russia sufficiently. Obama had this view, sort of this. realist view from Brant Scowcroft. Those are the kind of people who. like Jim Baker that.

why would we send lethal. arms to Ukraine and provoke Russia? Ukraine is not a vital interest to. us, but it is to them. He wanted to work with Russia and. did to facilitate the Iran deal to. bomb terrorist targets in. Syria. And there was a faction in the. Obama administration led by Hillary. Clinton. Blinken was there all. these sort of national security. people woven into the, you know, that victory, victory. No one was hired by Hillary Clinton. That's how she made her way into the. Obama administration. They viewed Russia as this.

grave menace. The reason Putin hated Hillary. Clinton was because when Hillary. Clinton was secretary of state, the. United States openly. spent millions of dollars. funding opposition. groups and organizing protests. in Moscow. I mean, we talk about Putin. interfering in our sacred. politics and our internal affairs. Hillary Clinton was openly funding. protests and and and and. anti-Putin agitated outside. agitators inside Russia.

in the 2010 election, in 2012, 2011, rather. And they were obsessed with. Russia well before. that. And I do. think that Russia is disliked. by a lot of people in Washington. because of the perception. that they are detrimental. to our interests in the Middle East. and especially to Israel's interests. in the Middle East, including their. support for Bashar al-Assad in. Syria. The fact that they have a good. relationship with Iran, it. doesn't really always have a lot to. do with the United States, but with.

the interests of other countries as. well. So you think that's the prime mover. here? Because it is true that Assad is. only there because of Russia? I think I think that's a fair. statement. Yeah, that's their ally in the. Middle East and has been their ally. in the Middle East for four decades. And just like we support our allies. around the world, like Saudi Arabia. and Egypt, you know, very savage, brutal dictatorships. But at least to do our bidding, the. Russians have theirs as well. They have a long term relationship. with Venezuela, with Cuba, going. back to the Cold War and still do as. well as with Syria. And yeah, the Russians operate in.

Syria, They protect Assad in Syria, and as a result, they end up being. antagonistic to. Israel, which ends. up being defined as U.S. interests as well. Like there's no. sure bit. But strictly speaking, this has. nothing to do with us whatsoever. I mean, I don't I honestly. Believe that unless you see Israel. as a part of the United States. You know, I'm not hostile toward. Israel, but I think it's a separate. country. It seems to me as well, it's often not treated as that. I'm just saying. Don't don't pay taxes there wasn't. born there. So from my position,

from an American perspective, without wishing ill on any other. country at all, and I really don't, I have been struggling for really. since the 2016 election, but. particularly since the war began in. February of 2022, to identify what. exactly would be the U.S. interest in this. And I and I just can't and I've. really, I think, tried hard, but I just I just don't see what's. in it for us at all. Tucker, there's nobody. I'm certain of this in the United. States, just an average, ordinary. American voter who believes.

that their life is affected in any. way by the question of who. rules various provinces in. the Donbass in eastern Ukraine. Nobody thinks about Ukraine, let. alone the Donbass, let alone eastern. Ukraine. It's an incredibly. complex situation. there in terms of the people's. allegiances, which are far closer. to Moscow than they are to Kiev. The question of what that. territory should be, should it be. somehow autonomous, should it be. used as a buffer against the West? The whole framework, as.

you well know, and as other people. have pointed out, when Russia. agreed to the reunification of. Germany, which was obviously. an extraordinary thing for the. Russians to agree to, given the. Russian history in the 20th century. with respect to Germany, when. they opened, the Berlin Wall fell. and they allowed the eastern and. the western parts of Germany to. reunite and to become part. of the West and become part of the. EU. The only concession. they extracted in exchange. for that was okay with. reunification. NATO's now moving. eastward, closer to our border.

in a country that has. devastated our country twice in two. world wars, invaded Russia twice, killed tens of millions of Russian. citizens. The only thing we need as a security. guarantee in exchange for allowing. that is that Neda will never expand. one inch eastward beyond. what was East Germany and the United. States agreed to that. And immediately in the 90s, an administration, the. administration started talking about. it and implementing NATO's. expansion eastward toward Russia. Exactly what was promised to.

Gorbachev the United States would. not do in exchange for them agreeing. to reunification. And why? Why? Why did we need to expand. our I. Never understood. Word toward Russia. And now it's not just eastward. in general. It's going directly up. to the Russian border on the part of. their border that has been invaded. twice in Ukraine to. destroy Russia. And both of those. those world wars, we also. participated in the change of. government. We remove the. democratically elected leader of. Ukraine before his constitutional. term was expired in 2014.

because we perceived him as being. too friendly to Moscow, which is. what the Ukrainians voted for and. replaced him. Victoria Nuland. constructed a government and they. was replaced by a government that. was more pro-U.S.. Imagine if the Russians. engineered a coup in Mexico. to take out the government because. they were too friendly to us and put. in a hard line, pro. Russian, anti-American, anti-NATO. president. Imagine how threatening we would. regard that as. And that's exactly what we did in. Ukraine. The question is, though, this has nothing to do with the.

national security of the American. people. No American is. threatened by who governs Ukraine. What they're threatened by is what. the United States is doing in. Ukraine, including this most recent. act. Well, they keep telling you, I is. going to make the world a better. place. That may be true, but you. have to ask better for home, better for your health insurance. company, which could use it to. calculate exactly how much to raise. your premiums based on your web. MD search history. I mean, better for the h.r. Departments that companies will. decide whether or not to hire you. based on what you've been look at. out online.

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that's express vpn.com/tucker. Get three extra months for. free. So I find. it so. terrifying. I'm not I don't think. I'm sort of over. Failing that, I mean, we are on the. brink of a global war. But can I just say one thing about. that? Don't you think? Aren't you kind of amazed. by how. impervious and dismissive. media and political elites are, the.

prospect of nuclear war? Well, I it's unimaginable. And and yes. And I mean, that's why I. Think it can't happen. Without knowing the situation. Yeah. And I will say, the one. thing that Trump has said repeatedly. over the over the past, certainly. since he left the presidency for. years, that he's received no credit for and. should get enormous credit for, is. that nuclear war is the worst thing. He was, of course, been briefed on. it as the person who controlled the. launch codes. He knows what it means. And anyone who spends five minutes.

looking into what a nuclear exchange. would actually, you know, do. is is terrified of it. But only Trump seems worried about. it. I don't understand. I've said this. I've talked about it so many times. And I think it goes back to when. Trump was president in the early. stages of presidency. Every time Trump talks about. the prospect of nuclear war, he knows that he's. limited in what everything he can. divulge. But he's so clearly trying to signal.

and he often says that these weapons. are of a different universe than. even the ones we dropped. And. That's correct. And he's obviously, as you said, understands and been briefed on. But you see. These morons at the Atlantic Council. or AEI or Hudson or these like. this cluster of the dumbest people. in the world all implicated. in the Iraq disaster. Say, well, you know, maybe tactical. nukes are fine. That we that are such next. level crazy. That's crazier than any. schizophrenic sitting next to you on. a public subway. Well, yeah, I mean, it's crazy. We constantly call like RFK Junior.

They call him crazy. They call, you know, talk of policy, government, gates, crazy, whoever. These people who have been in power, who have been generating. American orthodoxy, especially on. foreign policy, are. the most insane people on the. planet. It's because actually the. United States has been the most. powerful country in the world. No one could constrain it. No one could stand up to it. And as is true with everything, that. level of unconstrained power. corrupts people. That is, these people. Who have been in. Control of this power for. decades that has passed on one.

to the other through this document. that gets increasingly. out of touch and detached from. reality and and. And megalomaniacal. Exactly. I mean, at least during the Cold. War, I'm not saying it was a good. thing, but the Soviet Union and the. states were of equal power. They were competing with one. another. They were both very. constrained in what they were. They both were petrified of a. nuclear war. We almost came to. nuclear apocalypse at least twice, especially in the Cuban Missile. Crisis, through misperception and. miscommunication, when a Russian. commander of a submarine thought. incorrectly that they were using.

nuclear weapons against the. submarine and against Cuba. and almost launched the nuclear. weapons at the subcamp, about five. minutes away from doing so until. someone intervened on that sub and. said, I don't think that this is. actually an attack. It's very possible we've come to the. brink of it before. It probably is the single greatest. threat to the survival of the. species. Not probably definitely. is the use of nuclear weapons. Every time Trump talks about it, you. can see the fear that he has. He's trying to convey to. Others every time.

And. I mean, Tucker, I'm amazed. This is like impeachment level stuff. for Joe Biden. on his way out of the door to. involve the U.S. directly in a war for the first. time. We've been very involved in. other ways. They should impeach him. Why doesn't the. Usual limitation on the president's. ability to involve the U.S. in a war without congressional. authorization, which is exactly what. has happened through the use of. these missiles, which, as I said, we. need to help direct.

And the question is, yeah, why? The answer, though, is, is that the. vast majority of the Republican. caucus in the House and in the. Senate supports what Joe Biden. is doing, thinks he should have done. this a year ago. And. there's probably not a lot of anger. in the House and Senate over this, except the question that. it's called lame duck for a reason. A lame duck is supposed to be a. duck. That really doesn't do much, can't do much, does move much. It's by design, pretty limited. It's like this transition period. Yeah, he's floating in the water.

because he's been shot. Yes, exactly. His legs are broken and. so he's lame. This is not a lame duck. decision and it's not like there was. any emergency to it. It wasn't there was no emergency to. it. They just wanted to escalate it. because they thought Trump wouldn't. And so they did. It puts us in this remarkable. moment where the only adult. is Vladimir Putin. This person, we have been told, is. Hitler and deranged, crazy,

dying of nine different kinds of. cancer can't be trusted. Like the only reason we're not. I mean, we're all relying. on his restraint. That's the fact right now. How weird is that? Well, I mean, first of all, this is. this is what amazes me is that. sometimes propaganda and propaganda. is you have to respect it. It's a very potent field. of human knowledge that has been. refined over many decades, using. every field of disciplines of social. sciences and psychology and. psychiatry. I mean, propaganda is.

not just some, you know, intuitive thing that people do. It's an argument you make. Yeah. And it's very powerful. And we love to talk about how. propagandized the Russians are and. the Chinese are. and how there's no dissent. allowed. You know, George Orwell, in the. preface to Animal Farm. wrote actually 1984. wrote an essay where he was. essentially saying that. overt totalitarianism. of the kind that was taking place in.

the Soviet Union is repressive, but it's not nearly as effective. as subtle repression, the kind where you give the illusion. that people are free. But in reality, the flow of. information is heavily controlled. because at least when you know the. guys dressed in black with weapons. come and take you and put you in a. gulag for criticizing the. government, everybody understands. the level of oppression that often. generates a backlash. But when you combine repression with. the illusion of freedom, that's. what's incredibly effective. And that's what we owe. People with an abundant consumer.

economy. Like, you know, here your. edibles, here's your Netflix. come down. Yeah. And you can basically. get them to do anything. Yeah. And at the same time, there has been. a concerted effort to control what. was supposed to be the one. innovation that was going to break. the centralized control. of information, which is the. Internet. That's why there's so much. attention and energy. It's why it's the number one. priority of Western power centers to. control the Internet, because it's. the one threat to their ability to. maintain this propagandistic. control. You know, I still can't believe.

this, that it's not talked about as. much. But right after Russia invaded. Ukraine and Western governments. decided they wanted full on support. for Ukraine and this. very simple minded narrative that. they fed their public. After they started the war. I mean, the Biden ministration. start, that's my view of it. They knew that Russia. would invade if they publicly pushed. Zelensky to join NATO's. So they did that. Kamala Harris did. it in Russia. But my view is they. started this war. And threat talking openly about. expanding NATO's to Ukraine. You can find memos from the highest.

levels of the US government. Exactly do that. It's not just Putin. It's every political faction in. Russia that will see it as a war and. war, and they'll invade. So they'll annex Crimea and invade. eastern Ukraine. Of course, the American government. that you can show documents where it. says that. But the. you the EU the. minute that war started. In earnest with the Russian army. invading one of the very. first steps they took legislatively. was to ban the platforming, to criminalize the platforming of.

Russian media like. Russia Party and Sputnik. They made it a crime. and YouTube immediately pulled it. off because they didn't want their. citizens hearing any information. from the Russian perspective. I mean, you can hate Russia. You can think Russia is evil, you. can think whatever you want about. Russia. But why wouldn't you want to. hear from the other. side? You know, The New York Times. used to publish all the time, like. the speeches of Brezhnev have, of. course, and. Yuri Andropov and Khrushchev. And you could read what the Russians.

would say. They would come to United. States. They would speak openly. Now, it's it's practically. criminalized. Putin's speech in. February 2022 to his. country, nationally televised. there right before. the invasion was absolutely. just a remarkable speech, which I, by the way, never got around to even. looking at before I got to Moscow. And I was like, I can review Putin. I think I should watch that speech. I read about it, never watched. it. And I think. you're going to agree or disagree. You can hate Putin. I mean, it's. totally fine. I don't care how.

people feel about Putin. But most. Americans had no idea his. thinking in invading. Ukraine. Like no idea. Why wouldn't people want to know. what it was? Just the cartoon. He's an evil Hitlerian figure. who wants to reconquer. Reconquest all of Europe. the way Hitler did. Putin has been in office for 25. years. He has gone through six. different American presidents, every. single one of them. Until you were not allowed to say it. anymore, always said.

you meet with Putin. He's incredibly shrewd. He's incredibly smart. You can trust Putin. If you do a deal with Putin, you. can count on the fact that he will. adhere. To other heads of state. Still feel that way. And yeah, well, American president. said it all the time, starting with. Bill Clinton, that he's rational, that he acts in his self-interest, that he's calculating in terms of. and careful. And then suddenly this is what. amazes me. Propagandist Glee is that. overnight everybody. was forced to say. that Putin invaded Ukraine simply. because suddenly he became this.

psychotic, evil Hitler type figure. who just wanted out of the blue. They all believed it, though. A lot of the people screamed at me. at airports for being pro-Putin, which, of course, I'm not. I'm never. been pro Putin. I don't have strong. feelings other way. But they really. had been convinced, not just. by MSNBC and CNN, but by the entire. oligarch controlled Internet, that, like anyone who talked about. Putin, raised questions about the. war, was like for Putin, like that worked the propaganda. work. Propaganda. Tucker propaganda work, especially. nationalistic propaganda, because.

human beings evolved over thousands. of years to be tribal like we we. want to feel part of our group. We take pride in our group Like. it's why if you're born in America, you say, I'm an American. This is my country, this is what I'm. loyal to. It comes from these tribalistic. instincts, right? It makes sense because we evolved. for thousands of years where you if. you got expelled from your tribe, you would you would die. You needed a tribe in order to. survive. So we were tribalistic. animals. So if you appeal to people's. tribalism and say, we're the good. guys, we're the innocent victims.

Our enemy are the bad guys. They're evil. They're you know, that. appeals to people's most visceral. instincts. And the problem, of course, is the. countervailing punishment, which. is the minute you question it. You know, I had from the beginning, I had on my show, you know, people. like John Mearsheimer and Stephen. Walt and Jeffrey Sachs, and they were all saying from the. beginning. There's no possibility. that Ukraine can win this. war as Naito has. defined it, which means the.

expulsion of every Russian troop. from every inch of Ukrainian soil, just simply on size grounds alone. Just saying. Just basic. understanding of history. Every one of them, I'm sure. I think it happens to you, too. I know what happened to me were put. on these official list issued by the. Ukrainian government of being. pro-Russian propagandist. Everywhere you went, you get accused. of being a Russian propagandist or. some sort of agent of the Kremlin. Simply by questioning our own. government's propagandistic views or. simply trying to understand things. from the Russian perspective like. this is, you know, after.

911. The big question on the minds of. all Americans after they. were traumatized by this. extraordinary assault on our soil, designed obviously, to impose as. much suffering and and. killing as possible was obviously, they ask why? Why did they want to do that to us? Why would people hate us so much. that they would devise a scheme. as complex and deadly. as hijacking planes, passenger planes with. box cutters and flying them into.

major American buildings full of. people? Why would they hate us that. much? And they had to. the government had to give an answer. to that question because people. obviously want to know the answer. And that was on David Frum and. Cheney. And all the people said they. hate us for our freedoms. They just can't stand the fact that. women are allowed to wear bikinis on. the beach and that we have. a Congress. And it's like no one. ever thought, well, there's like. dozens of countries around the world. where women get to win over bikinis. and have Congresses like in Japan. and Korea and all throughout Latin. America and like Scandinavia.

Why aren't they attacking those. places? And then bin Laden wrote a letter in. 2002 to the American. people saying, here's why there's so. much animosity toward the United. States. And there was, of course, some. appeal to religion. And I made the. Mistake of reading part of that. letter on the air at CNN at the time. not to make a kind of point, but. just because super interesting, you know, and 911 changed everyone's. life very much, including mine. Lost a friend that day. Like, just like every American who. was an adult. And 911, obviously, you felt like it was an event that. you participated in or it affected.

you. So I felt like I had every. right to read that letter, like, Hey, this is he. He's now saying why he did it. I almost got pulled off the air for. doing that. Well, Tucker, I just want. I just have to forget it. I not only doesn't that surprise me. A lot of people, I forget, forgotten. that this happens, but it's actually. quite extraordinary. After 911, obviously, Osama bin Laden was one. of the most important people in the. world who had just perpetrated. the worst attack on American soil. since Pearl Harbor. And a lot of people wanted to. interview him or play clips.

of interviews. The United States. government told called all. the network news agencies. into the White House and said to. them, you should not. and cannot show interview. Osama bin Laden or show any. interviews with him. And they invented this. excuse as to why, which is that. he might put some sort of code. in his interviews that signal to. sleeper cells like he. might, like wiggle his ear like. Carol Burnett did or like, you know, raises eyebrows three.

times or blankness Morse code in a. certain way. And and the networks. all obeyed. And the most amazing thing was this. letter which you could go read where. he says exactly why. all the different ways the United. States has brought violence to that. region has interfered. With foreign policy is the bottom. line. We've been bombing that region and. interfering in them, imposing. dictatorships on those. people for decades, sort of. civically to suppress. the things they believe in. We don't want popular opinion being. prevailing and democratically in the.

Middle East because we don't. perceive it in our interests. So we've been imposing dictators on. them, secular dictators. We've been bombing them, we've been. sanctioning them, we've been. invading them. Of course we support Israel, which. in that region people view as. this grave assault on. the rights of Palestinians. But we put bases in Saudi Arabia, which is the most sacred soil to. that religion. We imposed a. blockade and sanction regime on. Iraq, which Madeleine Albright. admitted killed 500,000 children, but nonetheless said it was worth. it.

So we've been so active in that. region and that's the reason they. wanted to attack back. That's the reason Al Qaida had so. much support. But they banned Osama. bin Laden from being heard, just. like the EU banned Russian state. media from being heard because, of. course, you don't want Americans. being exposed to this. And then the amazing thing is. that letter, which really didn't get. much attention at the time, the only. place that existed on the Internet. was on The Guardian's website. And somehow, you know, 22 year olds on TikTok found. that letter and they started talking.

about it and they were like, my. God, I was never told this before. He didn't attack us because he hates. us for our freedom. He says. specifically, here's why. they're attacking us. And in other words, they were. reading a historical document and. discussing it, things that you would. want a free citizenry to do. But the fear. that they were allowed to not only. read but talk about that document. with one another was so intense. that in 48 hours they. forced tech talk to ban. every discussion of that letter to. remove the hashtags, to find it, to.

take down any post or accounts that. were talking about it. And then a guardian, a news outlet. for a move. That letter, which had. been there for 20 years, which was. of obvious historical and. journalistic importance. They removed it from their website. because they were too frightened. that people were going to be able to. read it. Why? Because it prevents the. propagandistic narrative from being. unchallenged. And that's the same with Russia and. Ukraine. That shows you how we. think we're so free. We have we can we hear so much. dissent because you have a. Republican and Democrat bickering on.

a cable show about trivial things. like, what? We have free debates, open debates. They don't get to have. that in Russia and China. But the minute there's information. that actually threatens the. government that they fear people. understanding, they clamp down on. it and suppress it. And that's what. they did there. You wonder why we put up with that. You wonder why we put up with a. government that continues to keep. secret files about 911. It's been 23 years. What what could possibly be the. justification for not telling. me information that I own and have a. right to see, which is, what the. hell was that?

And they constantly lecturing. Even the JFK files. Especially the JFK file. But but much more immediate. It was 20 years ago. But I mean, we're both adults. We remember it very well. Yeah. I mean, it was like I. I was traumatized by that. It was a horrible event. Exactly. And then a lot happened. Our country changed radically. because of it. To this day, the Patriot Act exist. Well, it's not never been the same. country. And in some ways, you know, it was much more successful. in its aims than than I even want to. admit to myself because it's so sad. to see what it did to this country. But here's the point.

They're constantly they meaning. the media and the Intel. agencies, which work together. As you know, they're currently. attacking other people for being. conspiracy theorists and crazy. and desecrating the memory of the. 911 victims, etc., by coming up. with explanations that are not. authorized. Okay, then why don't you just tell. us what actually happened? Why not just declassify it? What and what's the answer? It's going to jeopardize sources and. methods. That's not true. And we all know that. And you know that this. the importance of protecting. those secrets, keeping those.

documents that might show the truth. Not I'm a JFK. That's the most important thing. It's the it's in fact, the whole. point of the second impeachment. trial. Yep. Which never made any sense. Why would you bring an impeachment. trial against the president on his. way out? The office was because. they were petrified that Trump was. going to do certain things in that. transition, like, pardon Edward. Snowden, Julian Assange, which came. very close to doing, but especially. fulfill his promise to declassify. things like the JFK files and other. national security files. that had been kept hidden with.

no justification from the American. public, even though it happened. decades ago. 911 JFK. And they told him, if you do that, all the Senate Republicans are going. to vote to impeach you, you're going. to be convicted and ineligible to. run ever again. That was the sword. of Damocles. They held over his head. precisely to prevent him from. bringing transparency to the. government, allowing the American. people to see what they have a right. to know. But if your greatest fear is. transparency, then you're a. criminal. I mean, that's basically. proof. I can't think of a. better indicator.

of behavior than the. crazed desire to keep that behavior. secret. Right. I wanted to say some of that, which. is if you think about. what a democracy. is supposed to be like, what an. ideal free society is, whatever you. call that it's supposed to be, that everything that public. officials do in the name. of public power. is supposed to be known to. the public, but very few exceptions, right? Like there's a war and. they're planning troop movements. They can keep that secret. Yeah. Normandy a week before.

Right. Thank you. Because they don't have. to tell everyone that they're going. to do that. But outside of those. very rare exceptions, we're supposed. to know everything about what they. do. Of course, because they're doing. it in our name. Their employees. Yeah, they're supposed to be. accountable to us, but they can't be. if we don't know what they're doing, conversely. They're not supposed to know anything. about what private citizens do, that. that's supposed to track us or. eavesdrop on us or. keep dossiers on us or know where we. are or where we're going. Unless, again, very rare. circumstances where a criminal. there's probable cause to to to. to spy on us because we've convinced.

they've convinced a court, as the. Constitution requires, that there's. probable cause to believe her. But except in those rare. circumstances, that's why they're. called public officials and we're. called private citizens. We're supposed to our privacy. They're not. They're supposed to. have transparency. Our society has completely reversed. If you're a private citizen, the. government knows everything about. you. They keep all kinds of doubt on. you. That was the Snowden reporting, obviously, that Edward Snowden. revealed was the extent to which we. are being surveilled by our own. government. Conversely, we know almost nothing. about what the you know, when. I got the Edward Snowden archive,

which was hundreds of thousands, if not more of top secret documents. from the NSA. Obviously, what was surprising is. what was in them and what they. revealed. But even more surprising. to me was that. The documents that so many of these. documents, most of these documents. were marked top secret, had. no interesting information. in them at all. They just reflexively put like. how to get a parking credential, how. to ask your supervisor for a. vacation. These were top secret because. everything the government does. reflexively is kept secret from.

the public. Right now, that's the default. You have no right. Right, Exactly. So everything is. inverse. We the government knows everything. about what we do and we know nothing. about what they do. guess I should have known this, that. the big pornography sites are. controlled by the installations to. save access to the data on those. sites. And the reason that they do, and I. think the dating sites, too, and. the reason that they do, of course, is blackmail. And once you realize that, once. you realize that, like, the most. embarrassing features of your. personal life are known.

by people who want to control you, then you're you're controlled. And you look at the behavior of some. of these people who I know. personally, and particularly in the. Congress, you're like, Why are you. doing that? You don't agree with. that and you're out there doing it. anyway. We always imagine that. it's just donors, so they're getting. paid to do that. I think it's more than donors. I've seen politicians turned down. donors before. I see watched it. You know, I don't believe in not. doing that. People are very safe seats. Not everybody is desperate for. donors. Exactly. Okay. Just give me an example. Mean, it's not just the carrot. There's a stick in there. I'm not saying this happened here.

I'm not saying that at all. I have no basis for saying it, but. I had Mike Johnson on my show. About two months before. Unexpectedly, he became the speaker. when he just became like the night. you would. Like his chance at on your. Show. Yeah, I interviewed Mike. Johnson, and the reason I. interviewed Mike Johnson was. because. He would not go on your show now. No. Well, this. is why. This is so interesting. I this is. Why. So, yeah, just by chance, I. interviewed Mike Johnson. The reason was, was because. Christopher Wray went before.

a committee on which he sat in. the house. And make. Johnson grilled him. about FBI. spying, about the involvement of the. intelligence communities in our. politics, about the attempt to. censor the Internet coming from. the Intel agencies. And he did it with this. great kind of intellect, but also this very effective. demeanor. And I could just tell that he. passionately, passionately about. this issue. And then I started. following more and more what I was. doing. And he was almost single.

mindedly focused on. spying abuses, curbing spying, power, curbing censorship. You're blowing my. Mind. And so we asked him, I said, you know, can you call me, show you. like I'm a big fan of plans. I think the work that he's doing. great. I think. Tom on. Louisiana. Yeah. And you came on my show. No go go watch the interview. And I'm hard to shock you or. Shocking McCallum on my show. And after this. interview, I was like, I love him. One of the reasons one of the things. we spent the most amount of time on. was Pfizer reform and. the need for Pfizer reform.

But the fact that I'm glad, Tucker, I'm swear I this is I'm. telling you, Pfizer reform is coming. up in about three months where. they had to extend the Pfizer law. that allows the FBI, the CIA, to spy. on American citizens, the NSA, without really any reforms. And he was determined it was, I. guess, big issue. That's why he was. on my show. That's why. You like. what? Like my work was. He was like, we cannot allow this. fight is allowed to be renewed. It is a grave threat to American. democracy. At the very least, we need massive. fundamental reform blown away. And I was like, my God, I,

I And he's very smart. He's like a smart lawyer. He's very informed about these. issues. I walked away super. impressed. That is what we spend. most of our time on. But also just. When you put these clips on the. Internet. The whole show is on the Internet. No. But we just posted on social media. Because you're right, I did. But I'll do it again because Mike. Johnson becomes speaker about two. months later. I don't mean four. years later or two years later, about two months after that, three. months at the most. Right. When the Pfizer law is coming. up. And I was like, it's so great. he was made speaker.

There's no way this Feisal Law is. getting passed. Not only did Mike Johnson say. I'm going to allow the Pfizer. renewal to come to the floor with. no reforms, not allowing any. reforms, he himself. said it is urgent that we renew. Pfizer without any. reforms. This is a crucial, critical. tool for our intelligence agencies. And I put that crap everywhere when. that happened, showing where just. two months earlier. Did you but them together? Yeah, of course. I was attacking the. shell. Mike Johnson And then. somebody finally asked him like, But.

you've been saying all along for. years, for the last two years, that. you vehemently oppose this. and suddenly now you're for it. What changed your mind? And he was like, Yeah, well, when. you're a speaker, you get access to. a lot of things. And I was taken to. this secret room in the CIA and they. showed me these very important. things and these sensitive documents. about how important these powers are. and how devastating it would be if. we put any reforms on them. And so I realized that it was wrong. what I believed. And now I believe this law has to be. passed with no reforms. You don't have smart people like.

that. He was already in Congress. He had access to classified. information, getting briefings, secret briefings. You don't have people that invested. in position who with one. meeting I can see someone really. dumb being affected by that. Like, these guys with big medals on. their chest take you to like a. secret super secret room inside the. CIA. Look at all these locks and. codes and things on the wall and. you're all I'm like, my God, I can't. challenge this here. Very smart guy. I don't believe he changed mine. So the question is, why did he? I don't know. I really don't.

But I know that the person that was. on my show two months earlier no. longer exist. Wow. I can honestly say that's one. of the most shocking things I've. heard in a long time because I. didn't I, I should also echo what everyone. else who's ever met him will say, which is nice guy, you know, not a. not a mean man or anything. No great guy like he, you know, he. adopt kids. He totally does everything he says. for decency, which is for everybody. I totally I was even saying today. that he was, you know, with the. whole thing about the question of.

whether this new trans lawmaker was. getting news about their homes, he. was asked about it. He was just like. emphasizing the need for respect and. decency and civility, even if you. know things. Yes. And and I believe he believes that. I believe he is in connection with. the best parts of Christianity and. takes them seriously and conducts. himself that way and always has. nothing against Mike Johnson. personally. Quite the contrary. But to watch that happen. was I mean, as as. cynical as I am. I don't even know how to respond. because I didn't I have interviewed. Mike Johnson over the years, but he.

was like some guy from Louisiana or. whatever. I wasn't paying close. attention. And it was only after he became. speaker on the FISA question and on. the question of funding Ukraine. That was the other thing. You go on. I talked about that, too. He was like, you know, he did say. he wasn't at all like, you know, say like a Matt Gaetz. tape or, you know, Tom Massie. Like, we can't fund that. war that where he wasn't saying that. he was he was like, we can't. let Russia win. But he was still. pretty skeptical. But it was really. on these questions of.

Pfizer and the CIA. and the FBI and spying powers. and Internet censorship powers. Where he was passionate, vehement. That's why I had him on. You're making my arms go up because. I agree. Look, I'm not alleging. anything cause I don't know anything. I didn't even know that he was. that invested on precisely. the opposite side, but very. made all very possible. And, you know, I had a conversation. with him off camera, which I. probably shouldn't be too detailed. about it, but he said something.

that I thought was like not only. nonsensical, but like insane crazy. and just making it was internally. incoherent. And he's not stupid, as you said. And I and I got upset and I was. like, that doesn't make any sense at. all. And and he just kind of said, no, it does make sense. It does. But it was like there was. no answer. It was just like, wow, this is. I. Saw I saw Obama, too. You have to like especially for. people who are kind of new to power, right? Like not. Nancy Pelosi or Joe Biden or Mitch.

McConnell. People have been in these. positions for decades. Mike Johnson went from a very. backbench member of. Congress to the third in line who. controls the House of. Representatives. You can only imagine, for instance, just the unlimited amount of. pressure that comes from multiple. directions to force him to. align himself with whatever. the agenda is of the people who rule. Washington. Same thing happened with Obama. I believed Obama when he talked. for two years when running for.

president about how was a law. professor, how he believed so. much in the core rights of the. Constitution, like habeas corpus, the right to ask your. imprisonment, to have evidence. presented against you by places like. on Panama and elsewhere, how we. wanted to uproot the worst. abuses, the Bush-Cheney war on. terror. And then he gets into. office, not only doesn't uproot. them, but he starts extending them. because again, these generals come, including the ones he likes, who. went to Princeton, like David. Petraeus, you know, the ones who. dazzle Obama and give him. secret briefings about all the blood. that's going to be on his hands if. he does any of the changes.

He spent two years promising and. then suddenly on a dime, he. switches. And there's a lot of other. pressure you can imagine as well, like the stick, as you said. And anyone who thinks that this. is that our intelligence. agencies are above these kinds of. things. The naivete required to believe that. is, well, they're. Not above that. Of course they've done it. This is their currency. It's just amazing. Having spent all this time in. Washington with all these people, I. have just who I. know. And by the way, it's in some.

cases, like by chance, and I like. it. You can't really reach. another conclusion other than. there's something very heavy duty. going on behind the scenes, like. really profound going on. And I just don't know why no one has. ever emerged from the system to see. what it is. Is there not one there? Very few courageous people. You're one of them. Maybe there just aren't many in this. world. Well, I mean. Why doesn't someone just just call. one all these people. Out of the things that made Trump so. threatening and that continues to. make him so frightening is that. in a lot of ways, he was pulling.

the. Curtain. He is open. It's the fourth wall is coming down. Yeah. I mean, you know, I remember. he he he just said openly. Yeah. Like. As a billionaire, as a businessman, I just gave a candidate, you. know, $50,000. And then they will automatically. accept my call and do whatever I. told them to do. Are you who says that in the top. level politics, like, hey, you're. I'm running for president. I want. you to know, here's how the system. works. You give a lot of money. to some place that these. lawmakers tell you to donate money.

to, and then they do whatever you. want. They do your bidding. When in that 2016. debate, when he started railing. against the evil and. the stupidity of the Iraq war, because his principal. opponent at the time was Jeb Bush, who was backed by the establishment. And the audience started booing, you. know, as though America was rising. up in defense of the Bush family. He was like, these seats here, these are all the big Republican. donors. That's the only people who. are booing me because they're. supporting Jeb Bush.

And that's how you have you ever. into a debate, as I know you have. That's exactly how it is. The big on both parties. They put their big donors, the. Partizans riders, right behind where. they get their audience. There's only their reaction. So Trump constantly was. sort of doing that. Here's how. things really work. And then once he. started getting targeted by these. agencies, by the CIA, the FBI, starting with Russiagate, but the. Steele dossier, what Jim Comey did, leaking, that's the media and then. all those investigations, that's why he started saying these.

intelligence agencies are corrupted. to their core. They're filled with people who have. their own policies agenda. They were supposed to have an. elected leader, democratically. elected leader, who supervises these. branches and these agencies and. executive branch. And their duty is. to carry out his policies. But they don't. They subverted his. policies. They sabotaged them. because they didn't agree with them. They were like their own branch of. government, completely powerful. And he's the first one, I. guess, since Dwight Eisenhower, who. tried to warn of this on his way out. after spending eight years.

And obviously, the intelligence. community and military industrial. complex was way smaller when Dwight. Eisenhower tried to warn of how much. of a threat it was to democracy in. his farewell address. It was before Vietnam, before. the real build up of the Cold War, obviously before 911. And they're sprawling now. They're they're almost impossible to. even analyze or quantify. And Trump is the only one who's. trying to say these institutions. are radically corrupted. at their root. They're rotted. And that's why he's trying to choose. people. You know, he picks some like.

comfortable institutional ass and. status quo perpetuators like Marco. Rubio, Lee Stefanik, John Ratcliffe, people like that. Just to give. Washington a sense of, okay, there's. some people here we're good with, but then the people that he picked. who are share his view. that these institutions require. radical overhaul. They're just undemocratic, unaccountable, corrupt, three of. them. Those are the ones they're. trying to destroy. Well, there's there's Tulsi, there's. Matt Gates, there's. RFK Jr and a little. bit to some extent, Pete Hegseth. I mean, he's not really.

ideologically. unaligned, but the problem is, is that he doesn't come from the. Pentagon bureaucracy. That's what they care about most. That's $1 trillion agency. You know how many wheels that. greases in Raytheon. and Boeing and General Dynamics. That's what they care about most, is. making sure that money goes where. it's supposed to go. That's why they're concerned about. him. But the people who aren't the. ones that come on could. impact easily are the ones. who they're most out to destroy, because that's what these power. permanent power factions are, as.

they are their own government. And they wield the most power. And they have sure considered Mike. Johnson no threat at all, though. So let's take them and do what we. have to do. But you wonder like just. I don't know. I mean, look, these guys are under. pressure that, you know, we probably can't imagine, you know, if somebody knew the thing. you were most embarrassed about that. would destroy your life and make. your kids not like you or whatever. I'm not speaking of Johnson. specifically, but I. I know a couple of people who I know. are compromised in the US government.

and I sort of feel sad for them. because how would you like to be in. that position? But it does. All it would take is one brave man. to give a press conference. You know, there was actually a guy, Cokie Roberts, Father Hill Boggs, who stood up in Congress. He was the majority leader in about. 19 seven. He was on the Warren. Commission. And he didn't buy the did not. buy the conclusions at all. And he told other people that he was. from Louisiana and he stood up. and made some noises about on the on. the floor of the House about how the. CIA was, you know,

doing things they were not supposed. to do in domestic politics and had. unchecked power, etc.. And he was immediately denounced as. mentally ill, probably an alcoholic. And then he disappeared in a plane. crash with Begich in 1972. in Alaska. The plane was never seen. again. So, I mean, look, I'm not. saying that he was he was murdered. for that, though. You know, I would not at all be. surprised if he was. But why is he the last. guy to say anything like that? Well, because he died in a plane. crash and was declared mentally ill. No, but I mean, this is the thing.

is, you know, I, I remember understanding reporting. when there was all this controversy. about government spying on people. And the big reaction that. I got that had. been cultivated for a long time, not just by the government, but by. Facebook, Mark Zuckerberg famously. said privacy is an archaic value or. whatever. Don't worry about privacy anymore. People are saying, I don't know. anything, died like I'm not a. terrorist, I'm not a pedophile. I don't care what I'm a government. spying on me. And I will always say. everybody has things to hide. There are things that you don't tell.

anybody. There are things you only tell your. psychiatrist, only your spouse, only your best friend. Things that you don't want any other. people to know that you're. petrified. If everybody knew about you, we. we are private. We need we're social animals. We need connection to. society and other people. But we're also privacy. Without privacy, we go insane. And there's no freedom without. privacy. None. Because that's where dissent. and creativity and exploration. and a rejection of societal mores, that's where it resides in. the private realm. Without that, if.

you're just being surveilled and. watched all the time, that breeds. conformity. And so everybody needs privacy. Everybody values that. Everybody has something to hide. and the ability. to surveil people. to know everything about. I think what what actually happens. is we're so inculcated. from birth to have. this very idealistic. image of our country and our. government. And in some. ways it's valid. Like I think I. Revere the Constitution. You know, I went to school to study.

it and that they went to practice. it. Like I believe in its values. I think it's a genius document. To. Come from the Enlightenment like. this. I mean, just a very, like. intellectually based, false, topically based idea of how. it was constructed, like very. carefully and. are things very good about the. United States. But if you think. that the most powerful country. on the planet, the richest and most. powerful country arguably ever. to exist, does it have. at its core in terms of the people. who run it, people who are willing.

to do anything to preserve. their power, to augment their power? Again, it just takes a kind of. naivete that's almost impossible. Available risk, death every. single day in this country to rob. liquor stores for $300. So you can't tell me that. control of $1 trillion federal. agency or of a multi-trillion dollar. government with, you know, vast. Power to decide who. gets bombed where. Worse card I'm saying the. most powerful institution in human. history.

Doesn't have sinister things going. on and. People do to control that. No, the stakes are very high. And I think the closer you are to. it, the more often you forget that. you're like, I was the secretary of. whatever. Who cares? Well, there's you know, people care. Understandably. There's people will. do anything for power and money. Well, that's so distressing. Did you in your reporting. and I always forget that, you know, you were behind the Snowden thing. And thank you for that. What a wonderful guy he is.

But did you ever get any hint. of what the pressure is that's. applied to politicians to comply and. obey? Yeah, Well, first of all, I do think. like we were just talking about. people who why don't people stand up. like Edward Snowden is a perfect. example of somebody who. believe the mythology of the. government believed in, you know, he. went to enlist in order to fight. in Iraq. He broke both of his legs. He couldn't join the military. So he went to work for the CIA and. the NSA because he really believed. in them. And then what he saw was. so horrifying, was so.

corrupting, was so deceitful that he. risked his life and his liberty, which to this day he's deprived of. to inform everybody. about what was going on by stealing. under their nose documents. that he could give to reporters so. that reporters could tell the world. what was happening. That is kind of an example of that. level of courage of somebody saying, here's what's going on. What turning gave us was a tiny. picture of what the NSA does. So obviously, if there had been.

in there like specific Black. Bell sort of documents. about how they were spying on. particular politicians, that's. something we would have, you know, reported on very aggressively. and very early on. So I can't say I saw that. But what I did see is. all sorts of. incidents of people at the NSA. abusing their authority to spy on. people who they had no right to be. spying on, including sometimes, you. know, just things as trivial as. like ex-girlfriends or. family members.

But also when. in other countries, they wanted to. impute from somebody, they spied on. those people all the time and use. that information in part to. gain power over them. So, of course, who how can you expect human beings. to resist that power when it's all. operating in the dark? Strong families are built on strong. foundations, and it all begins with. what you bring into your home. It's hard, though, because Big. Pharma and the processed food. industry have spent decades. putting you and your loved ones at.

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and constantly expands its. authorities and powers because. there's no political gain. And it's budgets which are. classified. It's budgets which nobody you. know, that was one of the things we. actually were able to see was the. black book of the intelligence. budget. And we reported on the things that, you know, we thought were were. newsworthy about that There's. zero transparency to any of this. There's no oversight. You technically have like oversight. in Congress and the Senate, the. Senate Intelligence Committees, select committees that were created. after the Church Commission found. all these you know, that what.

the church commission found just by. itself, you know, CIA developments. of medications to try and like, you know, make people. lose control of their brains or. inject people with diseases like. really sinister, dark stuff that the. CIA was doing that nobody knew. about, not even the president. They just did it on their own. It was a discovery of a secret. government inside the government. The idea was we need at least some. oversight. This oversight, they tell nothing to these. committees. The people who get put on those.

committees are people who are. the ones who most support these. intelligence communities. It was run in the Senate for years. by Dianne Feinstein. Her husband was a military. contractor. She was embedded in these agencies. She defended everything that they. did. The one time she questioned. them, which was. when she wanted to investigate. the use of torture in the CIA. John Brennan, CIA spied. on Dianne Feinstein and on her. entire staff. He got caught doing it. He lied and said he did it. He finally admitted that it was. done. He apologized.

There were no repercussions. They've got bygones. We've got to go Google John Brennan. spying on that. I'll never I'll never forget it. And when that story first broke, it. was years ago. It was at least ten years. It was under the Obama He was CIA. director under Obama. And I remember thinking, I don't. think the CIA would ever dare. spy on the Select. committee on the Senate Oversight. Committee of the CIA, of the Intel. community. I mean, I can't imagine. they would have the balls to do. something like that. That's insane. But I had no idea. And they did it on somebody who was. one of their most.

They're blind US loyalists. The one time she stepped a little. bit out of line because. she wanted to investigate exactly. what happened in the torture. At that point. So, like, why don't you. why have people put up with that? I mean, I guess Frank Church did die. of incredibly fast acting cancer. So maybe that's why I mean, people. must be afraid because you'd think. out of 435, 535. with the Senate, there'd be somebody. who was like, this is not democracy. This is totally immoral. Like, I'm going to just stand up and. take them on like.

Blah, blah, blah. Tucker Ologist. Just let's say that. You know, people had things. on you that would, as you put it, destroy your reputation, make your. kids think very poorly of you, would. embarrass you for the rest of your. life or destroy whatever you. value in life. It takes a very rare person. to say, ah, effort, I'm going. to risk that happening. And, you know, I. think we have this self-preservation. tactic. That's why I hate those kind.

of things like blackmail, extortion. are so effective is because. they can force people to. No, I think I. I think you're you're you're right. It's a look. at how much these like sexual. misconduct allegations are used. when Julian Assange really got. dangerous suddenly out of nowhere. appeared to women claiming that he, quote unquote, raped them because. the allegation was they had. consensual sex with him, but he. didn't use a condom when. they had not given their consent to. no condom. And that became rape.

under Swedish law. That's what forced him to the. Ecuadorian embassy and led to. everything that happened. subsequently. Now, with Matt Gates, the minute that Gates, Pete Hegseth, two like out of nowhere appears this. alleged rape that. nobody had heard about, that nobody. knew about. It's always the thing. that always amazes me. This is actually the best example in. case anybody thinks, our government. didn't do that. When Daniel Ellsberg leaked the. Pentagon Papers to The New York. Times and The Washington Post. And I remember when I first heard. about this, I was kind of confounded. about why this happened.

Obviously, they were saying the. normal things you say about people. like that, like, he's a Soviet. asset. He hates America. He put troops in harm's way. because he showed the public that. the government was lying for years. about the Vietnam War. Like inside they were saying, we can. never win out externally. They were saying we're on the verge. of winning. But what they also did and it's the. only reason Daniel Ellsberg ended up. free. Is. They broke into his psychoanalysts. office because they wanted to. steal all the documents. about his most intimate.

admissions to a psychoanalyst about. his psychosexual life. and fantasies, because that was. the weapon of choice that they. wanted to use to destroy him. That's a fact. The Nixon administration broke into. the psychoanalyst office of Daniel. Ellsberg when they couldn't find the. documents. They plan to break in at. the guy's house, and that was they finally. put a stop to that. But they did break into a. psychoanalysts office. And only because of that government. misconduct did the judge dismiss the. charges against Daniel Ellsberg, who. otherwise was headed to prison for. the rest of his life? Why would that be a response.

to a whistleblower? Revealing to the press that then. revealed to the public that the. government was systematically lying. about the Vietnam War. It's because if you can have that. information over somebody and then. use it against them, you destroy. I remember when when it happened to. Julian Assange, no one wanted. anything to do with Julian Assange. You don't want to wanted to mention. his name is just like you. This person is guilty of accused. of rape. I just don't want anything. to do with that. So if you could have shown. that Daniel Ellsberg had this. fantasy or had done this or had done. that in the intimacy.

and privacy of his own life, it. just everybody would have wanted to. avoid it. It's totally true. Did you ever. find yourself on the wrong end of. any of that since you were very. high profile? I mean, I think the important. thing is that if you want to. confront the government, if. you want to spill secrets, if you want to bring unwanted. transparency, which happens to be. the job of a journalist, I know. people forget that, but that is the.

job of journalism. Yeah. If you're going to translate that, you're supposed to try to do. You have to, as best you can, guard. against that. Like you have to. protect yourself. Make sure that your own house. is in order as much as possible, because that will be a huge. vulnerability. But as I said before, everything everyone has things to. hide. There's no one who does. it 100%. And and it's also true that if, you know, you get really attacked. in a in a scary.

way, you don't want to talk. about it. I mean, I feel I feel that I have. been that has happened, you know, not sex stuff, but I have definitely. felt. A lot of pressure. And you don't you don't want to you. know. It's not just sex stuff. Yeah, there's there's all sorts of. things in our past that we do that. we're terrified. Worried the Intel agencies would try. and hurt you. Yeah. I mean. Don't cause this is. The here's the thing. Like I you. know I think a lot of people. remember but my.

husband who's now deceased but at. the time he went to. Germany because there was a part of. the archive that was corrupted and. we knew there was a lot of I. remember there and it. was with Laura Poitras and she using. her genius, had figured out how to. access it. No one else could, but. she didn't trust anybody, including. The Guardian, to give it to to bring. to me. The only person she trusted. was David. I couldn't travel outside. of Brazil because there was a. concern that I would be arrested by. the U.S. so I had to stay in Brazil so only. David could go and get those. documents. And the way we talked about it was.

in a very secure secret way where. we're using the highest levels of. encryption at the time that Snowden. insisted on. And when David went to Germany, he. came back home through Heathrow. But at Heathrow, the British. arrested him and detained him and. threatened to prosecute him under. an anti-terrorism law. And the only reason they let him out. was because the Brazilian government. became a huge story in Brazil. The Brazilian government was like, Give us back our citizen. immediately. And so they let him go. And then David sued the British. government over human rights abuses. because they were detaining him for. journalism. And the British government said in.

their papers when they defended. their actions, we knew exactly what. he was doing in Germany. We knew exactly what he was. carrying. And that's the reason why. we detained him, because we wanted. to prevent this these secret. documents from getting out into the. public because it harms British. national security. Well, obviously, we got the archive anyway and. we reported on those documents, but. they admitted they knew and. were listening to our conversations. about why he was going there. They knew when he was going there, they everything was being tracked. And so when you. Figure out how.

I knew they were using. I mean, part of the reporting that. we did was that the NSA had. cracked even the most sophisticated. levels of encryption. So things that people thought were. safe. There's nothing 100% foolproof. And at the time we were among. the most watched people in the world. because we had in our hands the most. sensitive secrets from the world's. most powerful government that we. were going around the world. publishing to inform people. of journalistically. And so, of course, we knew we were. being spied on by probably a lot. of people. It's just that the. British were forced to admit it.

When you get that confirmation, as opposed to like a belief or. suspicion, the level. of invasiveness you feel is hard to. express because they're not. just listening to you. The parts of your conversations. where you're talking about the. Snowden. I know. I know firsthand. Yeah, no, I know. Yeah, I mean, you had private conversations. leaked as well when you were talking. to President Putin. But what about those who did. add massive problems with. Ukrainian Intel service? ET cetera, etc..

It's not about me. I don't hold any. institutional power. It's just interesting if you see. what happens in your own life just. by talking about I haven't done. anything ever. Just sit around studio, talk to. people. But you know, you see the pressure. they apply to you. Like, what would. it be like to be, you know, the. chairman of the Intel committee or. the speaker of the House or the. president of the United States? Exactly. And I can't even. imagine. And it just shows what a. remarkable person Trump is. He is just he's weirdly. resistant to that stuff. And that is that's why they hate. him. I mean.

Remember all this stuff that came. out in the 2016 and they thought he. might win, like the whole Access. Hollywood tape that came out of. nowhere. And, you know, the Stormy Daniels. staffed, you know, they threw. everything out there. And Trump is. is a very rare person who's. just kind of shameless, like he. doesn't feel a sense of shame. and he doesn't back down. No matter what he goes he gets more. aggressive against people who try to. force him to is just his instinctive. to he is. I watched him for many. decades when I was a lawyer in New. York when he was a, you know, big.

real estate mogul, constantly being. sued in lawsuits. Everybody knew how he was. And that's what. is so threatening about him. It's not his ideology or his belief. For the first he's in Russia. It's the fact immigration. races are these are race, right. None of no one cares about that. No one believes that. It's the fact that he's immune to. the type of control that. for decades they've been able to. impose on people who wield any. power, let alone the power of the. presidency.

Well, just tap. the the the current state. of US-Russia relations or the war. that we're about to elect. How do you how do you think this. ends? I mean, if you're sitting in Moscow. Obviously, if there's a barrage of. weapons, you know, aimed at Moscow, St Petersburg, your major cities, that's one thing. If there's a limited number of. missiles aimed in Kursk were, you know Ukrainian forces are. That's another. And obviously they know.

what we talked about, which is that. in about seven weeks, there's going to be a new American. president with whom they've dealt. extensively. And despite claims that he is some. sort of, you know, lackey of Putin, he basically did the two things that. were most threatening to Russian. interests. He sent lethal arms. to Ukraine after Obama refused to. Trump did. I didn't agree with that. But that's. what he did and what he did even. more so that was more threatening, damaging to Russia as he spent years. trying to batter the Europeans out. of the Nord Stream two pipeline.

The Monitor. It was like, Why would. you be buying gas from Russia? You're getting dependent on Russia, and we're the ones who pay for your. protection. You should be buying it. from us. That's the North. Selling natural gas to Europe. Was the anchor the key. to Russian vital interests? And Trump threatened those vital. interests continuously. So the idea is anyone who's even. a little bit rationally thinking. would understand that this claim. that he's being blackmailed by. Putin, while at the same time he's. simultaneously doing the two most. threatening things to Russian vital. national interests, you would. immediately recognize what a.

fictitious claim that was. So he's being blackmailed by the US. Intel agencies and in fact, more so, our government is the fascist state. that they claim Russia is. Exactly. So fortunately so. And that's not to say it's not. depressing, but but so I think. they know that, you know, they. obviously know Trump's coming in and. and they feel like. he wants to go in a different. direction with the war. And so even though there is going to. be pressure on Putin, as there would. be on the United States and any. other country to respond. in kind to Natal in the early. states now bombing Russia,

basically, I. think as long as it's limited, as. long as it stays limited to Kursk, as long as it's not, you know, in large numbers, knowing that Trump is coming into. office, I think they understand that. that's an opportunity to try and end. this war without its escalation. I hope, again, as you said, we're. depending on Putin's restraint and. rationality. So is Christmas really about buying. stuff? You'll be forgiven if you assumed. it is, because that's the message. you receive. But most people sense deep down.

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Maybe the only thing that matters. We hope you will. Hello. So among the many. people Donald Trump has spoken. to since winning a week and a half. ago is John Mika. And Joe Scarborough. Mika Brzezinski, they. have a very low rated show on MSNBC, which I do think has outsized. influence. The numbers are really are small. People in Washington watch it. That's exactly it. That's exactly right. And so I think the show. does have influence. I disagree with every single word. ever uttered on that show, but I.

don't think it's totally. insignificant. You know, it's not. joy read. So they went. to Mar a Lago to meet with Trump. Like, what do you make? And then now. they're saying, well, we went. because we were afraid that we're. going to be persecuted if we didn't. kiss the ring or something. Like what? It's what their excuse is even more. pathetic, which is we're. journalists. You have to go and talk to the. people in power. But I. I think those two in particular are. singularly pathetic. And I realize saying singularly.

pathetic in the context of employees. of the corporate media seems like a. designation that no one deserves. alone. But I think in their case, they. really merit that. distinction because. I think, like most of the people who. work in corporate media like the. Rachel Maddow and like the Lawrence. O'Donnell and the Don Lemons and. those kind of people, I. think they believe all the insane, unhinged. I think they really. believe that. Yeah. I think that. there's a Russian agent that Putin. is blackmailing and that Trump wants. to like put them in camps. Like I think it's insane.

But like credit for at least. actually saying what they really. believe is as preposterous and. laughable as it is. Joe Scarborough has no beliefs. other than his own advancement and. self-importance. Okay. Let's remember in the 1990s, he was elected not as a Republican. congressman, but as a. radical conservative on the whole. Yeah. Gingrich Like young firebrand, we're going to go in and like. radically reform the, you know, change the country and Washington. No more of that anywhere in Joe.

Scarborough like this radical. transformation of institutional. power. And then as Megan Kelly said, no show did more to. boost Donald Trump in 2015 and 2016. in that in the in the Republican. primary than Joe and Mika. They were down at Mar a Lago all the. time. They love Trump. They were best friends with Trump. They laughed with him. They let him call another show all. the time part because it was very. beneficial to that show. It was the only thing that rated he. Trump saved all their jobs. But they also love just being. proximate to power like that.

That's the thing that they crave. most. And then. once what really happened was. Scarborough thought that he was. going to be chosen as Trump's vice. president. He really wanted to. And when Trump rejected him in favor. of Mike Pence and. then also MSNBC turned. into this fanatical. anti-Trump network where the only. people who watch were Trump haters. at both had a personal affront, but. also their survival. They had to turn into a. full on Trump hating show. You couldn't have the morning show.

of three hours be someone. positive Twitter neutral about Trump. when the whole rest of the network, everyone who watched. May I ask you to pause for a second? I'm just suggesting this. Scarborough Who I used to know. really well. He thought he's going. to be Veep. Yeah. Yeah, that's what they remember. How close. I know. I remember that. I didn't know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He. That's shook come to the United. States more often. I learn a lot. I think my distance is what enables. me to learn things. So, yeah, that was a big part of it. And but also, it was. survival at MSNBC.

And so they turned into these, you. know, Joe Scarborough, Mr. Radical. Conservative. What's changed? All watching he worked became Mr. Institutionalist. You know, the people out on a show. were like Richard Hoss and like. Norm Ornstein, like all these. things like Council on Foreign. Relations thing takes. People who are who are obsessed. with hating Trump as well. And it became ground zero for Trump. is Hitler. They were saying as recently as two. months ago or a month ago. Like Trump is comparable. to Adolf Hitler. He is a Nazi figure.

Mika Brzezinski went on The View and. cried and said, Trump wants to. murder women. Women are going to die. because of Donald Trump. He's a fascist. He's a racist. They said it every. day, over and over. And then Trump wins. And their whole influence was. because they were Joe Biden's. favorite show. Joe Biden would wake. up at like 6 a.m. like many geriatrics do. because he went to bed at like 7:00. pm and he would watch Morning Joe. and they would hear, you know, Joe. Biden is the greatest presidents to. have the hour. Joe Scarborough said. that he personally can. assure the country, having spent so.

much time around Joe Biden, that. he's sharper than ever. He runs intellectual circles around. all the Republicans who are claiming. that he's cognitively impaired. There's like a month before the. debate, he was saying that. So, of course, they Joe Biden. watched that show every day. That's what gave Joe Scarborough a. sense of importance, was like, I'm. close to the White House. He was at. the White House all the time. Now Biden is gone. Biden is not an asset anymore. Trump is back in power. And one of the things that has. happened, amazingly, since. the since column of Oz is that. the MSNBC audience, which is already. tiny, has basically completely.

disappeared. Like the number of people watching. those shows when they're live in. primetime with that big, gigantic. corporate power behind them. promoting it. It's it's less than a lot of like. YouTube shows put it. Well yeah. Including like I don't mean like the. cumulative audience of how many. people watch YouTube or YouTube. video at the end of the day. I just mean like watching. a Dan Bongino show has, I think a Rumble has like. five or 6 or 7 times more. viewers than MSNBC's.

prime time. This is on Rumble, you. know, which a lot of people don't. even know about, don't even watch. That audience is gone in part. because they feel disillusioned. that the people they trusted who. told them Trump was going to prison, the whole Trump family was going to. prison. Trump could never win. He was going to be in jail before. the election. All the women were going to rise up. and vote for Kamala out of anger. toward Trump. None of that happened. And they're like, I've been watching. this show every day. For nothing. It was I. Was it?

None of it happened. None of it was true. And that audience is gone half out. of disillusionment and anger, about. half out of just they kind of check. me out through impotence and. helplessness. And I think that they're desperate. The only way they think they can get. people to come back on is to have. Trump come back on their show. And there Trump is going to make. them cruller on the floor. multiple times like a dog. They were like Joe and Mika were. like. Trump was incredibly. cheerful and happy. Of course he was. He loves seeing you humiliate. yourself because, you know he knows.

you need them now. And I. don't think that, you know, weekly interview with. Trump, which is not going to happen. anyway, but even if it did, was. going to save MSNBC. No. Because who would watch it? Because no conservatives are going. to trust that show or MSNBC. And no liberals want to see. MSNBC. Host You know how angry. liberals are about just even the. fact that Joe and Mika went to. Mar a Lago. So who's. the audience for that? They're caught like Liz Cheney.

You know, I have to say, of all the. reasons, I'm so grateful that Kamala. lost, seeing. Democrats turn on Liz Cheney. and seeing her stranded between the. parties in no man's land to bash. it, Honestly, I can't. There is a piece by John Nichols in. The Nation today. I don't read the. nation much anymore. But, you know, occasionally the. nation is like kind of true to. itself, but not always. But so, no, I don't agree with it. But John Nichols. wrote this piece for Common Heresy, where he he goes through like all. the places that she went with, Liz.

Cheney, what we call my Harrison. like died. It did not work. She turned off for Republicans. like the idea was, you know, we've. got Liz Cheney campaigning with us. A lot of Republicans don't like. Donald Trump will vote for us. It's like just the opposite. happened. You know, it was so predictable and. so obviously it was predictable. Also, like what made Kamala's. campaign like for the six seconds. that it seemed like it had some. like, air to it? Yes. What is this like vibrancy. of young people, you know, like. celebrating the emergence.

Right, right, right. Yeah, totally. And so you then take Liz Cheney. and like send Bill Clinton to. Michigan to, like, lecture. everybody in the Muslim community. And every university hates you. because you been buying. It is all about how the Israelis. are totally right and it's all the. fault of the Arabs. And then you take Liz, Dick. Cheney's daughter, with you. through the Rust Belt where, like all those policies, devastated their lives, all those. wars. And you think, Liz, think about. I mean, this is a think think about.

how out of touch. and cloistered and in a bubble you. have to be to think. that you're going to win an election. depending on people who are in the. working class, who feel alienated. from society, who feel like DC. doesn't work for you by taking the. daughter of. like the face of the American. establishment, Dick Cheney, around. with you as if she's your running. mate and. people aren't craving change. And you have sitting there with Liz. Cheney, like the. old people only know because she's.

she was the vice president's. daughter. Her dad was Dick. Cheney. And not just Dick Cheney, but. somebody who supports a whole range. of policies that Americans. vehemently reject. Now. And I think that's more than. anything what people like people in. media have finally had to come to. grips with is, first of all, it's. good. That was Cheney actually isn't. the secretary of defense, secretary. of state. That also is good, even. though there are a couple of people in. Trump's campaign who are very. similar views like the Caribbean, Liz Cheney. But and at least a. monarch. But well, be that aside, it's good that Liz Cheney. specifically is not any of those. positions.

But I, I think the best thing is that you. have all these people inside these. cloistered bubbles in Washington who. really thought that they were the. conscience of the nation, the voice. of the nation. And not only were they applauding. the decision to take Liz Cheney, but. they have for spending eight years. claiming that Donald Trump is a. white supremacist who wants to put. minorities in camp. And not only did Donald Trump win. the election, but there was. millions of nonwhite voters. Yeah, who for the first time left. the Democratic Party and went to.

vote for Trump. So imagine you wasted eight years of. your life screaming and screeching. like a petulant bird who. has been like shot. Donald Trump is a racist. He's a fascist. He hates he only. like slightly bow. And then you watch millions of. Latino people and black people. and people and Muslims. refuse to vote for Kamala Harris. You obviously I, I have. no influence at all. I'm completely out of time. Well, but it's so good to know that. about yourself. I mean, this happened. to me, by the way. They're all kind. of vehemently opposed. to abortion, which I think is like.

horrifying. And but lot of people. don't agree with me. And so I see. this, you know, Rove v Wade comes. down and you see these ballot. initiatives say, you know, we're. going to allow abortion till birth. And I'm like, wow, I'm so glad it's. up for a vote. And then it turns out. the voters just don't agree with me. at all. And even in red states, it's true. It's true. Like that was hard for me. to accept because I am. I never talked about it, but I was. just so I'm so sincere on the. subject. I'm just I'm not for. abortion, period. But you have to be real. Like, okay, sometimes people agree. with you, sometimes they don't.

But there's something about. the Democratic base which really is. just basically just like unhappy, college educated white ladies. That's really who it is. Honest and. Honest. I mean, at least they say. that they're like, we're we're. relying on affluent women in the. suburbs. That's their base. Exactly. But the unhappy ones, I. mean, I'm related to some happy. ones. They're not voting for. complainers, but they're the ones. who are sort of disappointed in. their husbands and or in their wives. or whatever. I get it. I'm not being mean, but just true. But they should know. that they're in the subset of a. subset and that not.

everyone agrees them. I think that's the beginning of. wisdom. I mean, it has been for me, like not everyone agrees. I know. that's okay. But the thing is, like you were just. saying, you read The Nation. sometimes. Yeah. I go out of my way to read. everything, everybody, me to, you know, I try and have people in. my lives who have very different. views on. You know, I have a lot of people in. life in Brazil, for example, who. worship law. I have a lot of people. my life who hate law worship. Bolsonaro, people who are in. between. I want that. Like, I want to hear from you, want to be challenged all the time, not be occupied. I'm telling you, I know all of these.

people. I used to be on MSNBC. all the time. I've been friends with. all of the people. Who do They don't know, though. They despise me with the burning. passion. But in part because nobody. hates things more than no one. The person always most hated is the. one perceived as the heretic. Of course, you know. But. But I was never really. on their side in the way that they. thought, actually, anyway. But anyway, it doesn't matter. The I know all of these. people and what has happened. on MSNBC is. that or places like. a New York Times op ed page similar.

People who support Trump don't exist. in that world. There's not one op ed. page writer at the New York Times. of the dozens who. is a Trump supporter, even though. half the country is more than half. the country. Right? Like Ross Douthat is like the person. closest to sort of understanding. the Trump movement. But he certainly. doesn't like Donald Trump at all. And I think that they just don't. It doesn't exist in the world. There's nobody ever on MSNBC on. their shows who brings that. perspective of why they support. Donald Trump. So if you're only talking to people.

who are like minded and a lot of. them have now left Twitter trying to. go to some other platform where only. they're only there, they don't want. it. They really don't want to hear. any dissent. And you're living a certain kind of. life. You know, they're well-paid. They are cloistered in these, like. affluent places in the United. States, like in the East Coast, like Brooklyn and Manhattan. and Washington and northern. Virginia. How do you not realize that the life. you're leading is so fundamentally. different from the people on whose. behalf you claim to be speaking? And I do think a lot of them, even.

though they're going to resist it. and battle it, have to swallow. this election as a complete. repudiation of not just themselves, but their entire purpose in life. Do you think. That they again, I. just want to say how non-judgmental. I feel about this. That has happened to me. I've been fired. I have found my views. repudiated by the public at large. Those are very important moments to. me personally. They made me a better person. So I am hoping that they internalize. the pain and learn from it.

Do you think they will? Yeah. I mean, what always amazes me. is like, you know, I really did grow. up in a working class environment, but like, my whole life. That was the only one. Yeah. No, I mean, there are other people. who grew up like, you know, I wasn't. like, poor, but I was not near. middle class. Work at McDonald's. My mom worked at McDonald's. She, like my parents, got divorced. when I was seven. My father was an. accountant. He had three Americans. So you are a I don't. know anybody. I mean, this I don't know anybody. in journalism. I know people whose mom worked at. McDonald's. I don't know anyone in. journalism whose mom worked at.

McDonald's. Well, I'm just I guess my point. is that, like, of course, that. shaped me for a long time. But I realize now that that's not my. life any longer. Like, and it hasn't been for, you. know, ten years, 15 years, like my. life has been very subpar from that. So I have a great amount of humility. about my ability to speak for people. who have a different kind of life, because you, of course, the. way you live shapes your. perspective, shapes your. understanding, shapes your. priorities. And it amazes me that these people. don't have that humility at all. And so I,

I think they're resisting it. Like they're you know, that was what. Obama did. Remember when he was like, yeah, I. know there's a lot of black men who. don't want to vote for Kamala who. are going to vote for Trump. That's. because you all hate women and. you're misogynist. And then they're basically saying. the reason a lot of Latino what. An arrogant douche bag to say. something like that. I hate you know, and there's a. perfect example like he spends all. his time on, like Richard Branson's. yacht. Yeah, I know. And, you know, just with the. highest level of jet set. And then he thinks he's going to go. and speak to, like, black or working. class man, you. Disagree with me.

You're a bigot. That's like that's. such a crazy place to start any. conversation. It's so alienating. And I think I think this kind of. condescension. But the other thing is, like the. main argument is that like, they're. all stupid, like they're victims of. disinformation, they're misled. They have all these alternative. media they're listening to that. don't have the controls that have. with us with they're getting far. You know, basically they're stupid. They're they're like easily misled. They're gullible. So either they're racist or. misogynist or stupid. That's their explanation. That's the thing they're clinging. to, you know, like,

they don't realize how good they had. it under Biden, how great the. economy is, how much Kamala. Harris and Joe Biden did for them. They just don't because they were. told that it was untrue. They can't figure it out for them on. their own, like the condescension. reeked. And I just it uses. all of every pore of their being. And then they wonder why people. despise them in their culture and. their subculture. It's who wants. that. It is nauseating. But despite so what I'm. saying is that they're not they. don't have the attitude you had, which is like, it's actually good.

to be humbled to like, realize that things that you thought. about the world need to be. reevaluated. There's no self-criticism, no. reflection. In fact, every Democrat thinks like, yeah, I know why we lost. It's been what I was saying all. along. None of them are saying that. But, you know, they're like. Democrats did this and Kamala did. that. You know, they all are trying. to pretend that if people had just. listened to them, the Democrats. would have won, even though all. along they were like, Cuomo is. running the most brilliant campaign. ever. But what I'm saying is, is that the.

result is so. overwhelming, so kind of pointed. in, devastating to their worldview. As I said, I think the thing. that has really shaken them the. most, even though they're fighting. it, they're not embracing it. They're fighting it, but they can. Is that so many. nonwhite voters? Yeah. Ah, And Trump made. huge gains in almost every nonwhite. sector of society. I mean, Trump was saying that New. Jersey and New York are swing states. and people were laughing at him and. he only lost New Jersey by five.

points. And the best any. Republican has done in in in New. York City in many, many years because of how many black. and Latino and Asians. and Muslims voted for Trump, nonwhite voters. And so when that. happens, like, you don't even get to. blame white people. But you you you have. to accept that the people who you. think you own, who have mindless. loyalty to you disobeyed. you and didn't listen to you.

That's what makes them feel really. shaken. And it's a slave revolt. And if you read the accounts. of people who lived through slave. revolts, not just in the American. South, but like in Haiti or, you. know, anywhere there, always. wherever you have slavery, you've. got slave revolts at some point. They're always so shocked, like they they they can't. believe that, like the mammy. came after them with a knife. Like, we thought you loved. us. It's so sad to their worldview to. believe. No, it's the I mean, those. people are central to their.

world view, is that they're. benevolent leaders of. these people. It's like that scene in Animal. House. It is. He loves us. He does? Drunk frat boy. Yeah. No. People always imagine. that the people they control, their. employees, their serfs. love them. And what they need to. understand, I think this is just. true in life is that the people. subordinate to you, resent you. They may like you, but they also. resent you. There's just. Subordinates alone. That's what I'm saying.

Right. And that's one of the reasons. you see hostility among. women toward managed in general. That's not a defining. characteristic. But there's a little. bit of there is a little bit of. that. If you're in a subordinate. sexual position, you're like. a little mad about it. I'm just I'm. sorry. I think that sorry to channel. Dr. Freud, but there's some truth in. that. And I think it's probably time. for about you. I've said this so. many times, like just. if you belong to one of these. so-called marginalized groups that. liberals think they own and have an. entitlement to control.

You will never see more. naked and unadorned. bigotry, contemptuous bigotry. than you will see toward individuals. within that group who disobey. Obviously, I remember when I really. started sweating from the left. I never had real homophobia in my. entire life before. I only started seeing it like once. I had that freedom. Once you questioned before. you remember the L Big T. community, right? Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And a pedophile, whatever. You know, all that things.

And then. Are you serious? Yeah. And then, you. know, like, the way they have always. talked about. I'm sorry to laugh. I miss. No, it. It's amazing. It's the way they talk about. Clarence Thomas. I mean, you know, any black person. who's who, who's been a. conservative, same with like women. who are, you know, Correa, Steinem said about the people, the young women who were refusing to. vote for Hillary and voting for. Bernie. When asked like why they. were doing that, she's like, because. young girls go where the boys are. You know, like the most demeaning,

insulting thing you can say about. women that they they don't think. on their own. They just, like. mindlessly do whatever the boys are. Right. And so now you're seeing. this like, yeah, like Latinos, like, are very misogynistic, conservative. So are black men. They hate women. You know, they're easily misled. They're low information voters. You know, the amount of contempt. that liberal elites have for. these nonwhite voters who didn't do. as they're told is. almost scary. Well, it's scary because it's a. psychological condition.

And that's, of course, why they hate. whites. So they've been because. they're losing the white vote. And as they start to lose the white. vote than whites became the problem. in the country. It's like, where's. all this anti-white hate coming. from? Well, it's coming from the. Democratic Party institutionally. because they're being rejected by. white voters. Yeah. And they were ready. They thought they were going to get. white women get to embrace like. white woman. We're going to rise up. and join them against Trump. But a majority of white women voted. for Trump. Incredible. So they're going to get I mean, I. will say to Hispanics. in the United States, you're about. to be the subject of a hate. campaign. Yes.

And like the and Muslims, too, who. didn't want to vote for Kamala. because of the you know, because. they were feeding Israel. I can't tell you how many times I've. seen I can't wait until you people. are deported. I can't wait to see you blown up in. Gaza. There's a sentiment like you're. going to get what you deserve and. I'm going to laugh about it and I'm. going to cheer it. Same with with Latinos. I can't wait till you're deported. You're going to get what you deserve. when your abuela is. deported. Like really sick stuff. Joy Reid. I'm not trying out obscure. people on the Internet. And she's gone on the air almost.

every night and talk that way. It's attacked the Hispanic. And Muslims and Arabs. Well, so the best part about this is. the language barrier. And very so few liberals like even. bother to listen to what people. actually think or say. They're just not interested. You know, it's like they treat. everyone like a three year old. But when they find out the social. views of your average Central. American, which I find. hilarious and kind of great, but. whatever. Leaving my views aside, the average social views of. a Central American just on the. social issues are so.

far, far out of what's considered. acceptable. But they have no idea. Which is so ironic because. Democratic strategists used to. openly boast about what if you. say you'll get called, as always, promises the replacement theory. that, we're going to import all. these people into United States, make them citizens, and they're. going to be supporters of the. Democratic Party, and we're going to. reign forever, like a thousand. years, because these are all our. voters. And they get here and they. find out that actually. they're. But but I have to say, like. there's a great article in New York. magazine, which is Words that Cost.

My Life very, very rarely, where there's a writer. who actually wrote a very critical. profile of me, like five years ago. So who is his name. is Simon. I just I just talk him today about. this article because it's a great. article. I, I'm bears. I don't know his name, but remember. last name, it's hyphenated, so. it's just a little complicated. But anyway, I really recommend this. article. He just what he did was he. purposely went to. black, Latino, Asian neighborhoods where there was. a lot of Trump votes. And he just walked around on the.

street and talked to as many people. as he could who voted for Trump. about why and. What I think people. don't understand is that. the Latino and black. NGO presidents who get put on TV, who are supposed to be there to. speak for yeah, have. less in common with the people. on whose behalf they're speaking. than like the white host. of these shows. Way less. And so you. Go they're certainly less than me. I mean, I've got attitudes that are. pretty popular in those communities, right? Exactly. But still, like a lot.

of them are just like as. far from being, like, you know, deceived by. disinformation. They're like, it was the Democratic. Party that supported NAFTA. They're like, we're having trouble. paying for our health care or food. for our kids. And they're sending. billions of dollars to Ukraine and. to Israel, to all these other. countries. They're just talking about the. struggles that they have in their. lives and the way in which the. government doesn't care. There's some social issue stuff, too. But once you get to United States, you become a citizen. You integrate pretty quickly. And the thing you don't sit around.

thinking about trans people or. whatever, gay marriage or these are. ancillary issues. Even if they don't agree with. Democratic Party on them, then they. contribute to the nation. The fact that, you know, they. had that's why that camera ad was. effective, not because people are. sitting around thinking about whether. trans people should get government. funded sex reassignment. surgeries in prison. But because it was like a proxy for. explaining that these people have. nothing in common with your lives, they don't care about you. They don't care about your values. Had they felt economically. satisfied, I don't think that would.

resonate because that's not what. people care about. But most of them are just worried. about the same thing everybody else. is worried about. And they finally got to the point. where they were they were even. More so they're even more worried. Exactly. They're the people who get. most affected, especially by. immigration. Totally. I mean, the people who lose their. jobs with immigration often. are nonwhite people, black, black, working class, Latino, working class. And they feel. resentful about everything that's. being done for. You know, there was. a lot of, they're giving free. housing and free meals. to illegal immigrants while.

I can't feed my family. I really recommend the article. It's not done with caricature. It's not like handpicking a few. comments. It's a very long article. and it just lets these people speak. for themselves in a very revealing. way. What's just so funny is you live in. Brazil, which is another. continent. It is. You've been there a while. How many years? 20. 20 years. But I bet if I called you the week. before the election, which I should. have done, but I got busy. But if I'd said, like, what. do you think? Black and Latino people,

men, married people in New York. City, around the country, What do. you think they think politically? I bet you would have been pretty. cool. I know you would have figured. this out. I was talking about this. I don't. Even live. Here. I know. But I lived here, like. for the first 38 years of my life. It's the only country of which I've. ever been a citizen. I'm here all the time. But I do think that. And how do you know that? And they don't. That's the point. I think that distance gives you a. perspective. I the fact. that I'm my friends are not. media and political people in New. York and Washington, that I'm not.

locked into their right to their. worldview, that I'm not subsumed. with that, that I'm not dependent. upon it in any way. It gives me, I think, a. broader perspective. Like if you live in Northern. Virginia and you spend all your time. in Washington in green rooms or New. York, you're going to be so. distorted and the things that you. think about the world at it. But also, I think you have to, like. go out of your way to to okay, I don't want to be told what. people think by other people who are. reporting to be their spokespeople. I wanna hear from them directly. I want to look at the polling data. I want to understand what they're. thinking.

And you can just see it. You could hear it, you could feel. it. You could observe it. analytically in that data. But they just I remember people on. CNN saying, you know, I think. it was Van. Jones or no, it was Bakari Sellers. who was like, I can I don't care. what the polls say. I can guarantee you there won't be. more than 5% of black men voting for. Donald Trump. I don't care what the. polls say. There won't be anywhere near 15%. of you know. He Bakari Sellers said that. Yeah, Just like I don't care what. the polls say. I'm not like a huge you know, I'm.

not a huge expert on black America. and I don't have a million black. friends, but I have some actual, like, actual friends, I don't know, a liberal black guy. I know some who vote for Democrats. or whatever, but I don't know. I literally don't know except like. the guys you see in Green Room, so. into Princeton or like fake. preachers or something, but like. actual black men. I don't know any. The only ones are in the media, The. ones I. Don't know any person. I've never even met one. Right. And so, like. What And but this is if. you think about the Democratic. Party, the thing you fear most.

is that these groups. that have been voting for you for. generations and have been. passed had loyalties passed down. from their parents, grandparents. who don't even think about not. voting for you at the election. Once that breaks. And that saying that those people. who voted for Trump will never vote. Democrat again, but now. they know there's an option. They're free. People get to decide. for themselves who they want, and. nothing is more alarming. or or patronizing.

to Democratic Party elites than. seeing that. I think it's really good. It's good for the. Tree. The Democratic Party, in its. current iteration, is just is. almost purely destructive. and shouldn't be. You need a two party system where. both parties are. represented. It's integrated. Like, yeah, I remember like the. smartest Republicans like J.D. Vance, Josh Hawley, like the ones who really understand. that you can't have the same. Republican Party as you did in 1980.

Have always been describing the. future of the Republican Party as a. multiracial, working class. coalition. And to watch people. identifying primarily based on. their citizenship and their. Class, that's what you. Want, as opposed to constantly being. divided by race. You want. Is so. A man. Promising to see. Well, it's essential or else you. have Rwanda. I mean, because. you know, your class. can change, but your. race doesn't change. And so if you engender conflict on. the basis of immutable.

characteristics, it's not solvable. And so you don't want to ever do. that. You make people hate each. other based on how much they make. where they live, even, But their. skin color. As you say, that gives them the idea. of change. Okay, we can change the. government. Well, that's exactly. right. Exactly What is immutable. characteristic by definition, don't. you know? That's like that's like Albanian. blood feud the last 800 years. Like you can't do that. But that has been the predominant. liberal mindset is to encourage. people to see themselves as. part of insulated factions who hate.

other factions based on those. characteristics. And there's almost. nothing more offensive to me about. what American liberalism writ large. has done than try and impose that. framework on people to divide people. based on things that in fact don't. divide them. Well, yeah, especially since the. experience of just like living in. this country, you know, is so different from what they. describe. I have always been. on the right. I've never. had anybody, anybody. who's black or Hispanic or nonwhite. ever attacked me one time in public. as a racist.

I've only had affluent white women. attack me that way. I don't see people hating each other. on the basis of race. I don't I'm sure there's racism. I know that there is because people. are flawed. But it's not a defining. fact in this country that I have. ever known. I don't know what the. hell they're talking about. I mean, they're trying to scare the. shit out of people to get their. votes. That's it. Well, obviously, millions. of nonwhite people agree with you. They just went and voted for the. white candidate over the black one. I know. And the white candidate who. they were told was Adolf. Hitler and wanted to put all white. people in camps. They were looking.

around, though. That's not my. experience. So I got to just one. last question like that. We began the conversation with. the war that we're now in. I we're in a war with Russia. And that really is something. that the Biden administration is. doing to punish. the incoming Trump administration, I. think, and to prevent it from. acting, you know, with the autonomy. any administration should have. But they're also going to leave. behind all kinds. I mean, not to spend the next seven. weeks doing nothing.

And one of the things they're going. to try to do is increase censorship, I think. Over the next seven weeks. Or am I just being paranoid? I think you're right. They're obviously not going to do. nothing. They're going to try and. fortify everything as much as. possible from the kind of change. that the American people just voted. for. The party of democracy is going. to that. Censorship, in my view, began. like systemic censorship on the. Internet, began as a reaction to. 2016. Without question. Both to Brexit, without to Trump.

That's right. That's when you saw. the emergence of these. highly well-funded disinformation. experts, the concoction of this fake. expertise called disinformation. experts. How do people get to be that? Where where do you go to school to. be a disinformation expert? I got floating arbiter of truth, but they needed to. radically intensify censorship. because they blamed free. speech and the free flow of. information. And. they blamed that for for Brexit. first, but especially for Trump's. victory. And they wanted to crack down on.

that. There's always now an ongoing. effort to try and crack down on. that. I think, though, what they're going. to try and do is look at. the areas that they believe Trump is. trying to most radically change, beginning with foreign. But that's. foreign policy. The thing that they. value most. That's the by far. You know, centerpiece of how America. runs, in their view. And they're going to spend as much. of their time subverting him and. sabotaging him in advance, even though he just won the election. by a pretty solid. margin.

And. There are some things that will be. reversible. But if you escalate the. war in Ukraine and Trump now is. coming into a war that the Russians. perceive accurately to. be not just a proxy war with the. West behind Ukraine, but where. Nito is actually bombing Russia, it becomes infinitely more difficult. to keep under control and to. resolve. The problem is, is that the risks of. this are so. great that. it it actually sickens me.

more than almost anything I've ever. seen it show that they're willing to. do this on the way out, just prevent this war from ending. and trifling with. The risk of a nuclear exchange. With the lives of every person on. earth. Yeah. I just got to close by saying. there's been insurance on my whole. life. I, you know, spent a lot of. time around journalists bragging. about the risks they take. I've never known a journalist who's. been threatened with prison more. times than you have and.

probably once every six months. I just check to make sure that. you're not in prison. And I and my friends do that, too. Who is assuming you're going. to wind up in prison for challenging. the powerful and revealing what. they're actually doing? So I just. want to say congratulations on. remaining free. Thank you. I appreciate that. It's not always been such an easy. task. There have been times when I've. gotten pretty close, including. recently. But. I feel like if you're not. hated by and feel and perceived. as a threat by people in power, you're not doing your job. That's for. Sure. What I really believe.

Well, then, by that measure, the. most successful journalist of our. generation, which I already thought. of anyway. But congratulations. Thank you. Glenn Greenwald, always. great to see you. Thank you.