Former CIA Officer Amaryllis Fox Kennedy: Iraq, JFK, & Everything Else Our Intel Agencies Lie About

So this is a tweet from I don't. normally read people's tweets, but. in standing with Ukraine, the. Biden-Harris administration. convinced them Ukraine to abandon. a peace deal that would have ceded. only half of the territory that. Russia now occupies. And for that opportunity to lose. twice as much of their homeland, they paid with tens of thousands of. innocent lives. We did this to control the $11. Trillion of minerals under the. Donbas. We did it to grind down the Russian. war machine on the grift of. Ukrainian teenagers. We did it to hand out hundreds of. billions of dollars to U.S. hedge funds who are, as we speak,

carving up rights to Ukraine's. fertile soil and vast mineral. resources. The truth is, the United States has. never stood with the people of. Ukraine. That is simply a jingle, an ad campaign broadcast to those. who have never been there, designed. to sell taxpayers on the appeal of. prolonging war for profit. We have cost Ukraine our territory. We have cost Ukraine her children. The war hawks and the bankers are. no friends to Ukraine. Well, I was applauding. as I read that alone. in my truck.

Well, I mean, it's a horror. It's a horror. And we are I would just. allocated another 100 billion. I mean, it's. And where is the. end game? But how did you get here?

How did you get I mean, I know. you're we're from, you know, the same city, basically, and you were CIA. officer and. you're just from a world in which. that is an extremely unpopular. never uttered sentiment. How did you get to that? Well part of it is pattern. recognition, right? I mean, yeah, we we have done this. before. And, you know, it's just how many. times can you.

wade through years and years. of a war with absolutely no. stated end game and. and dwindling public support. and mounting civilian. casualties and. disintegrating homeland because. all of your money is being spent, you know, fueling. weaponry to blow up over foreign. skies. and continue. to print more money. to pay for it. And the answer the last time around.

was 20 years. And I, I want to make sure it's not. again because, you know, here we are at. $33 trillion worth. of debt and. we're now paying more. on those interest payments every. year than we are on. defense. Completely unsustainable. And most importantly, are the human. lives. Yes, tens. of thousands of people who won't,

you know, proverbially. dance at their children's wedding. That's right. And see the sunrise. and drink a cup of coffee. And it's just that part. of it is completely lost. And when you when you hear. our generals and our political. leaders saying, don't you understand. this is a great thing, we are. achieving the strategic aim. of diminishing. Russian military reserves and we. don't even have to put a person on. the ground. You know, what they are saying is. that those Ukrainian.

children and now, you know, old man and anyone. else that they can put up against. the front line are. lesser. Children of God than our own. that we would send over there and. You know, that doesn't fly with me, so it's repugnant. Yeah. And I know you don't want to talk. about yourself, but I'm. Because I do. I think I understand your background. pretty well. I just. I'm fascinated by the fact. that you are saying this.

and that no one, very few people in the world from. which, honestly, we both come. are saying anything like this. And so what? How did how did you. reach this conclusion, of course, is. pattern recognition. You're saying. it's common sense. How could you not reach that. conclusion? I agree with you. But how is it that almost. no one else in Washington is saying. anything like this? Yeah, I mean, I wish they would. And I think some of them are saying. it, you know, in the. privacy of their own conversations. But I came to it,

you know, after. 911, there was kind of a suspension. of opposition to. war in our country that, yes, you know, maybe has has never let. up. I mean, there's some recognition. now that that poor. choices were made there. But in the moment when, you know, France was objecting and. we decided to call French fries, freedom fries, and you know, that. there was a real. hunger for war.

And I remember gleefully. participating in that to my shame. Yes. It was a collective. psychosis, maybe a grieving process. or, you know, and for me, I'd. just. 911 happened as. I was going into my last year. at university, and I. went to Oxford overseas, and. it started in October, so I was home. for it. My mum lived in D.C. at the time and. I had a whole plan.

I was going to go to Thailand after. graduation and do human. rights journalism and I sort of had. a background therein. on the Thai Burmese border before, before school, and. everything changed as it did for so. many in our generation. I think on September. 11th and for me, I, I. had lost one of my best friends and. third grade. on the flight that blew up over. Lockerbie, Scotland. And. It brought a lot of that back.

And I think hearing. the war drums beating. for me. I hadn't, oddly enough, heard. much about the intelligence world. I mean, it didn't I didn't know. many of the things that I know now. I don't think I probably would have. gone into it if I had. But I liked the idea of a kind of. a secret diplomatic. service. I liked the idea that rather. than conduct. an incredibly expensive kinetic. war.

Expensive both in terms of. lives and treasure. that you could find out about. something before it happened and. prevent the attack from happening in. the first place, which admittedly was a kind. of naive early 20s understanding. of of the intelligence business. But at its best, you know, that. is what it does or. what it intends to do. I think where they get into. tremendous trouble. is.

I'm tempted to say mission creep, but actually it was kind of built in. to the entire OCA. history. But is when rather. than going in and actually reporting. what is happening in every corner of. the world, ah, they are making. it happen. Yes. It was not really intelligence. gathering. It's it's it's a kind of secret. military. Right? I mean, rather than reporting. that a coup is about to take place,

you know, for absolutely sure it's. about to take place. Right. And that has but not. worked out in 100% of. cases, as far as I can tell. And and yet again, we. never learned our lesson. I mean, you look at what's. happening in the Middle East now, you know what, 70 years. on. post Mosaddeq and everyone. If only we had a democratically. elected leader in Iran. We did. You know, and.

people may or may not agree with. with each of these governments, but. they are for the people. of each country to work through. We had our own revolution in this. country. It was a very important, you know, stealing of. our national values. And I think. you have to go through that. yourself. And I worry. in Iran that we're, you know, hearing the beginnings of that. again with. this kind of.

Royalist sentiment, monarchist. sentiment of, you. know, well. the human rights abuses there are so. egregious that anything would be. justified. And it just. it does no one any favors. So, I mean, what you're describing. is conceptual corruption, like a corruption of first. principles. If. the point of your foreign policy is. to spread democracy, you can't. end democracy in the name of I mean, you just that's that's insane. And no one says that.

Yeah. Unless you're the Democratic. Party in the United States these. days who seem to be, you know, have cut their teeth on. ending democracy to save it overseas. and now are practicing the same. theory here in the United. States where they've told us for the. last two years, you know, Donald Trump is. such a threat to democracy that we. must stage a palace coup, you know, replace our candidate. with someone who hasn't. received a single vote,

undermine every other candidate. of our own party and every other. party in the courts, censor American citizens, undermine the Constitution, all in order to save democracy. So I think what we what we reap. overseas, we so or what we so. overseas we reap at home and we're. in the midst of that. Does seem like our foreign policy. drives our domestic policy or that. there isn't actually much of a. domestic policy. There's not a great concern about. what happens in the United States. In Washington, I have noticed I came.

to this over 40 years of watching, but it. that maybe was inevitable. If you start overthrowing. democratically elected governments. abroad, why wouldn't over time you. think that's acceptable in your own. country. Acceptable and maybe even noble? I mean, you know the lies. People tell themselves in order to. persist with what is ultimately. an incredibly profitable business. model. But also, you know, if your end is.

stability and you tell yourself that. stability requires control, you know, and that there need to be. small, short term sacrifices. And I think we really are seeing. that bear out in our domestic. politics where. Increasingly, I'm seeing. the First Amendment as an obstacle. Does the Constitution, you. know, actually serve us these. kinds of questions in articles. coming out in the media and. Democratic leaders? And I think it really is a symptom. of what we have been.

spreading around the world. And the results are plain to see. You know, I mean, we had more. Americans slip into poverty over the. last two years than I think any. year in the last 50. We had. our nuclear clock, you. know, with tech closer to midnight. than at any time since its creation. in 1947. More, more. people died around the world in the. first two years of Biden-Harris.

from war and violence than in all. four years of Donald Trump. I think people don't really. recognize, and not. even just because of Ukraine, even. if you take Ukraine out of it. And so I think that, you. know, the insecurity that that. we see there and then. the fact that at home we. have more children living in poverty. than any rich nation except for. Romania, Our life expectancy. sits right above Algeria's. You know, in the 1990s, if you were born in the United. States, you could expect to live as.

long as in any other. pure nation. And now you die six years earlier, you know, six years of. hanging out with your grandchildren. and watching the sunrise on your. porch that's just been robbed. through absolute, utter lack of. leadership on domestic. health priorities. And. and it's really. time for a shakeup.

Everything you said is. so nicely put and true. I wonder. because, you know, a lot of the. you know, you know, a lot of the. people operating our current foreign. policy and you worked. at one of the agencies prosecuting. that foreign policy. Like did you detect these attitudes. when you worked there, when you. worked at CIA? Did you get. the sense that people. felt it would be okay to interfere. in domestic politics in the US? Well, they were sure keen on doing.

it in other countries. and used a lot of the same tactics. I never witnessed. Any tendency to do. it in the U.S. at all. But it also, you know, I. was working very. specifically around I worked. U.K. liaison and then. worked operationally. on. Nonproliferation, but specifically. within the context of non-state.

actors so. very focused overseas. Watch the exact same playbook. of going in and. finding underfunded. newspapers and radio stations. and TV shows. You know, a benefactor would arrive. with funding. and all of a sudden, you know that mouthpieces. is presenting stories in a light. that, you know, well. aligns with U.S.

foreign policy or the preferences. of of whatever leaders. in power here. And I think that we are seeing that. across the board in media except for. new media like this. And that's been a godsend. Which are you. Think that we're seeing federal. agencies, Intel agencies. influencing American media. surreptitiously? Absolutely. I don't think that it's in. as I mean, I doubt there are. actually investors.

there. There are layers of this, right? I mean, you see, at the most. basic level, it's are. you run the story for me and I'll. give you the best tip the next. time that I have a leak. Right. Which is the oldest exchange. in the world, maybe the second. oldest. And seen it. And it goes on, you know, every day. But there. is no doubt that there are also. actual formal sources throughout. the media and always have been.

You know, what does that mean, a. formal source in the media? I mean, you know, an asset, somebody that would be. paid by intelligence. organizations to. to work on their behalf, play. stories on their behalf. And of course, that happens, you know, all across the world. But when it happens in the United. States and it's the end of. democracy, of course. Well, look, I mean, we have sets. Operating basically a Jira ticketing.

system for any tweet. that the White House chooses. to that they would like to see. deleted, even if it's in. jest, even if it's satire, they just put it in the ticketing. Section, which says. Yeah. Well, what's interesting about. this is that, you know, it's a. part of the Department of Homeland. Security, but. it's supposed to protect our. our nation's infrastructure from. terror attacks. And at.

the beginning of the Biden. administration, a decision was. made that information is. infrastructure. As it is now. Is it? It has, you know, an Orwellian. tang to it. And as a result, in order to secure it, you know, Caesar was quietly. empowered with the. ability, sometimes directly. and sometimes through NGO. cutouts. to present.

to all the social media companies. and Wikipedia and Amazon, any content that was flagged as. concerning. And you know, Bolo. alerts when out be on the lookout. And they held. weekly meetings. and said, you know, here, sure. Put an enormous amount of. financial pressure on these. companies, saying, you know, that there are legal protections. from liability would be withdrawn.

if they didn't cooperate, naming and shaming them if they. took, you know, longer than. a week to respond on something from. the podium in the White House. And Mark Zuckerberg, as. you know, spoken publicly and. written about. the degree of pressure that he felt. a sense for American people. And we're now seeing UK's Labor. Party doing the exact same thing. here in our own country, which is, you know, in some ways more egregious.

and and in other ways, you know. Not to be mean. So UK, the Labor Party, which is currently in power in the. U.K., has a series of NGOs. that it funds and directs. that have waged war on. free speech, especially. what they call. Twitter under Musk or Musk's. Twitter, that they have gone into.

multiple offices. Amy Klobuchar, Kamala. Harris and said, you know, that they want to. participate in and provide. support for destroying. Musk's Twitter. And. you know, this is. Where they would be the dreaded. foreign actor interfering in. our democracy. Correct. And we're always hearing so much. about it turns out to be the press. Turns out to be the Brits, you know, and many others. Right. But there is nobody is.

fighting them because labor has just. sent, you know, I think 30 people. over to campaign for Kamala Harris. Is that legal? That seems like. foreign interference in our. Evidently their their approach. is that as long as you're not. donating money as if you're out. on the if you're out on the campaign. trail volunteering that it's legal. But I you. know, certainly unwise. in my opinion, because, you know, if President Trump. wins this election, which he's. looking very likely. to do right now,

you know, it's it's an. improper way to conduct foreign. relations. Right. You don't go to. another country and campaign for a. particular candidate for office. Yeah. Or try and shut down. their most basic rights. I mean, the First Amendment, as. everybody always says, it's first. for a reason. The Constitution, you know, was. written a decade. later, but largely in response to. our secession from. Great Britain to come and to meddle. with that constitution.

in our own country. And of course, this follow suit. with some of the challenges that. we're seeing free. speech face in the United. Kingdom, where people are being. thrown in prison for ten months, for two years and so forth, for. for social media posts. We're talking. But you're half English. You're educated heavily in English. I love England. And and by the way, that. does not reflect England or. Great Britain. It is of a.

very small. group of leaders there who've. align themselves with a very small. group of leaders here in the same. way that censorship and. undermining the Constitution does. not reflect the American people, and. yet our leaders persist in doing it. So are you. Are you surprised as you look across. and see what's happening there? I am. I mean, I, I have a law degree. from Oxford on, you know, in English law. And it was always. clear that, you know, it's not a.

written constitution. It's much more based on precedent, but that there is a deep and abiding. respect going back to the Magna. Carta for. civil liberties and. the idea that. An a flood of immigration, which, you know, we must take a measure. of accountability for, because. largely our going into. Iraq was was what. began that entire. shift in the demographics of Europe.

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yeah. We broke the world for I. used to say we broke the world for. 20 years, but here we are. And I think, you know, the ramifications. we're continuing to deal with. And they, you know, they compound. because. as a result of of. that, you. know, we have Brexit. We have. many of the pressures. that have led. to the Ukraine.

war. And as a result of that, we're facing, I think, really unprecedented dangers. in this country that are also. greatly underappreciated. And we will respond to. if they happen. And I think that escalatory. cycle is what. keeps us trapped and in the bad. decision making. And, you know, I. remember at the time. in Iraq, it was,

you know, six months we'll be out. They'll greet us as heroes. And the same thing was said. in Ukraine. And we find ourselves in this. quagmires without realizing that, yes, there's a body count. And by the way, that is generally. largely lied about and hidden. For sure. But then there's this. vastly higher. Body count of those. whose lives have been uprooted. and who have either. died early as a result of, you know, migration or deaths of.

despair. This is the same with lockdowns. And those numbers are incredibly. hard to ever even peg down. And when you look at the millions. and millions displaced, I mean, Brown University parks, the. the global war on terrorism. as. having killed or led to the. deaths of 800,000 civilians, and that goes so far. beyond what the US. well will speak.

to. And then the the those. that were forced to migrate are in. the many millions. And when you take a homogenous. you know, Europe is of is. balkanized, but each of each. element there is accustomed. to being very homogenous. And as the indigenous populations. of the continent. Right. And when, you know, when I was in when I was. at Georgetown, at. my Masters at the School of Foreign. Service there, and the.

the focus of my thesis was trying. to get very quantitative. about predicting terrorism because. at the time it was a very. squishy subject, was post-9-11, and it was mostly qualitative. the way people were describing it. And one of the. one of the closest. corollaries that I could find to. being predictive. was the ratio between. hookah bars and madrassas.

But not just the ratio, the rate at which it changed. And that is, I think, deeply underappreciated. It's not that they don't. necessarily plan. to at some point have their. demographics look different. Right. But when it's forced. so quickly. Yes, nobody can absorb. The pace of change matters. and matter and we can't metabolize. it right or not designed for this. pace of change at all. It really, really matters. Whatever. You know, that's it.

That madrassas bi partizan. hookah bars are in. the Middle Eastern context. But when you. look at what we're. experiencing in the U.S., where you. have kids who've just come back from. a pandemic, then being sent home. again to do Zoom schools so that. their classrooms can be used. to house migrants or, you know, hotels, all being shut. for the same purpose while veterans. sleep under bridges on the. streets.

It's the. scale of it. And the the deluge. is what makes it impossible. for any society to absorb. And that doesn't make it you. know, that does make it racist. It doesn't make it wrong. It it's human nature to need. time. And and it's the. nature of economies and societies. to need time to be able to. expand and adapt. And I think. our going into.

Iraq, Afghanistan a little. bit, though, in the early days, that. was actually pretty well managed. before it before it sprawled. But 2003, I think, was. really the beginning of this era. where we were. shifting. You know, we're talking. about a rules based order. and breaking every single rule. in that rules based order and then. having utter disregard for. the social chaos that was resulting. Exactly. Exactly.

Exactly. And and people's. need, which is inherent. for order and predictability. and continuity in their lives. and their communities. We always talk about communities. Nobody actually cares about. communities or blow them up. in a heartbeat. So can I just ask. you. There's so many threads, but. just to get back to what drew you. into this kind of amazing. life that you've lived, which was 911. I don't understand. I sincerely don't understand. Maybe you do. Why 23 years later, when.

you know every regime and place in. 2001 is no different, including. the Saudi government? Yeah. Why we would have so many classified. documents from that time. What? What's the excuse for that? I don't get that at all. I mean, why do we still have. classified documents from the 60s? I completely agree. But because 911 was, you know, was the world changing. event of our lifetimes, I think it's. fair to say in retrospect, I don't understand the justification. for that. And I don't know why.

nobody demands like one. to declassify it. Like, why. shouldn't it's our country. All these people died. We should. Know. Right. And I agree. entirely. And I agree. I mean. The same applies for the 60s. I think ultimately, you know, when. most Americans go to work for a. third of their working week, they're. working for the government there. They're taking that money, having spent the day away from their. families, sacrificing whatever. they would prefer to be doing, and. they don't get to keep any of it.

They turn all over to the. government. The government works for the people. directly. I mean, they are directly paid by. the people. And if your boss. asks what you've been doing. and you know, you say, sorry, I. can't tell you it's classified and. it doesn't cut it, you know. And, you know, are there. are there moments where, you know, the actual identity. of a source is, you know, preventing. nuclear war with the Russians. is at stake?

Sure. But they're actually. quite few and far between. And, you know, I think there is. a bureaucratic inertia here. Some of it is some of it is CIA. and some of it is, you know, probably more nefarious than that. But there is also a lot of. bureaucratic inertia. And it's one of the reasons I'm. excited about the prospect of Ellen. getting in there. But to to do. some surgery on on some of that. bureaucracy. But, you know, CIA. 1 to 1, when you start you. have this one week,

you know, fill out your tax. forms the same as. you would with any other job and. like nothing sexy about it at. all. There is just here is the. insurance program and the person. who's going to work in, you know, the coffee shop is. sitting next to someone who's about. to go down to the farm. It's just. everybody goes through it. And the. email client that you use are looks. a lot like Gmail. I mean, it's provided by Google and. it has all the normal fields. and then an additional field.

that's for. for classification. and it's a, a dropdown. menu and it when. it first drops down, it's all check. boxes with their own, you. know, sub subsets and it's. hundreds of different. classifications, all different. numbers and codes. and you can hover over them and they. say when to use them. But, but there are a lot and. we were told in that first. day, you know in that first.

course, you. know, just to make it easy on. yourself, pick a six, 4 or 4 checkbox. It hit Save as favorites. It'll come up every time and then. you don't have to worry about it. Well, that's, you know, human, compartmented, sensitive. information. It's usually reserved. for, you know, the. actual identity or address. or identifying details of a source. that whose life could be in. danger for what they're doing. And yet here it's being used for,

you know, I'll meet you at 430. at Dunkin Donuts and. everything in between. good and bad, nefarious. and not. And the problem with that. is that it is completely exempt. from any declassification. threshold ever. And as a result of. this kind of administrative tweak, which is either just to save people. time or maybe to, you know, reduce. the number of things that will ever. eventually be published. Now you have class after.

class after class of CIA officers. that, you know, just chronically. make sure that every single email. they ever write will never see the. light of day. And I think that is being done. across government. So literally, the default. is secrecy from the public. Yeah. The default is, you will never. know. You never know how. much money was spent, what it was. spent on, whether it was legal.

You know, whether you spent that. Tuesday away from your family. working to pay taxes and those taxes. went to kill someone or. went to save someone's life. No, no accountability. And there's no way to know. And there's no way to know. And there could be. Right. I have a lot of respect. for. for the role of intelligence. agencies in saving. lives and in preventing conflict. and attacks.

I think they're actually. far more valuable. in that than many people realize. because they have so. sullied their name by getting. into all kinds of other business. that that they shouldn't be doing. But there is a very valuable role. for them in in that there are some. things that do, you know, need to remain secret. But 20 years later, 40 years later, 60 years later, you know that then. it becomes about, quote.

unquote, preserving trust in our. institutions. Right. Continuing. How do you code for If you. knew what we did, then you would. shut us down. Now, you know. And I assume that's. the motive behind continuing. to classify documents from 1963. and the Kennedy. Well, it's sure not sources and. methods, right? I mean, if it is, then, you. know, we've got we. need to. Update our sources and. Update our sources and methods. But it's not.

I mean, from time to time they will. say this is about protecting. allies. Of course, I think we would all want. to know if if there were allies. or any other nation states involved. in what happened in the 60s or what. happened in 911. So it. protecting anyone above the. American people who you work for. doesn't really make a lot of sense. They'll actually say it's to protect. our allies. Well, not about a specific.

operation, but. as a reason for long. term classification. When pushed. Yeah. That's pretty outrageous that they. would admit that. I mean. So the interests of a foreign. country are more important than the. interests of the American people. I think there I think there kind of. argument would be if I were to. steal man it. Eventually the American people will. be protected by something that. we need from that ally. Some kind of, you know, security.

collaboration or whatever we might. need down the road. And therefore, you know, we must keep that. relationship strong. And again, if it is the. identity of somebody who's working. with you, who's family is going to. be in danger. That is absolutely. true. And maybe that's still true. 40 years later, you know, it's possible that it is in certain. circumstances. But how about how about 61. years later? I mean, less and less likely. What do you think that's about?

The assassinations of the 60s? Yes. I could talk to you about that all. day. I bet you've. intersected with it on various. levels. I have. Yeah. And. And I feel something of a. responsibility to. to get to the bottom of that, at least in my lifetime, for my. children. You know, I mean, my. my daughter, Bobcat, is Bobbie. the fourth. So her great grandfather. was RFK.

And and. I don't I want to be able to look at. her and and. for her to know whether or not. her own government was involved in. these assassinations. And if so. What's been done about it to make. sure that that never, ever happens. again. There's never a coup like. that in this country again. And I think when you look at. the collaboration. that was going on in those days.

between. The intelligence community and. organized crime and the mob, you know, there were very. blurry boundaries and. I worry that. Today. The cartels. have kind of taken the mob's role in. that. World, the cartoon meaning the Latin. American drug cartels. Do you think that the US government. is working with the cartels?

I, I mean, working. with is a is broad, right? I mean, the intelligence. community's job is to protect. the American people. And sometimes they interpret that as. requiring. collaboration with criminal. elements, with terror organizations, ostensibly as part of cover. to. You know. To complete. an operation that will save American. lives or provide information.

that you know would be helpful to. American leaders. Clearly, in the six years. that ended up being. the. Manipulated into. a broader collaboration that. allowed. US government. elements to undertake. activities that they could not. directly undertake by law.

And, you know, I. think we have seen that. even with liaison partnerships, you know, it's clear that Five Eyes. has been used, you know, liaison intelligence. liaison partners have been used to. Surveil leaders in our own. government when our intelligence. agencies could not do it directly. because there is no prohibition on. sharing intelligence. Right. You get a foreign Intel. service to do the work for you and.

then you get the information. Right. And similarly, you got. an NGO or a contractor to censor. the American people, or. you get. A criminal organization to. undertake a criminal. act. The you know, you might. who might not be so savory for your. own officers to do. And that, you know, I, I never. worked in Latin America. So it's not. it's not something that I have.

directly witnessed, but I certainly. Have direct, you. know, knowledge of it happening. Of the US government collaborating. or having some relationship that's. not purely antagonistic with. the Mexican army or other drug. cartels. Sure. And I and I think, you know, again, the steel man would be this is for. the benefit of the American people. It's always for your own good, for. sure. And good luck, though.

Is there an argument for having. penetrations in the top of the. cartels in the same way that you do. at the top of. You know, the Iranian or Russian or. any other adversarial government? Sure. These I mean, many of them. are as. powerful and threatening as as a. as a nation state. The problem, though, is money. Right. And there's just so much money. spinning off of these enterprises. It's the cartels that. I mean, you could just see.

corruption happening very easily. And I, I know one person who. was involved in that who who I. trust. I can't prove it, but who. worked for CIA as a. contractor, moving over, as so many. do, from the military. And, you know, he's told me. a great length about the money. that CIA was getting from from drug. cartels in Latin America and South. America. In his case, I can't prove. that. But I was shocked to hear. that. You don't seem shocked to hear.

that. No, I mean, look at Iran-Contra. You know, I mean, look at Air. America and Vietnam like these are. it's not this is not a new pattern. for intelligence. And when you look at black budgets, you know, I mean, Congress was. stunned that there were operations. happening in Niger and. Obviously they control the purse. strings. So who's funding that? Right. And so that pattern. has gone back. a long way, where.

where the narcotics trade. has. has funded off book. activities or that, you. know, that obviously what. happened with the Contras and. has. Has happened before and since. Given how many Americans are dying. or whose lives are being destroyed, families wracked entire parts. of the country just devastated by. drugs. It's it's a little much.

I mean, that's like kind of at this. point, like Nazi collaboration. level. Immoral, I would say. No. It is. It's pouring over the border. and. Along with whether, you know, humans. and children. And. I think we really. are seeing. The devastation that that reaps. As you say. I mean, that just the sheer scale.

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seem to me as an outsider, sort of outsider, completely. controlled by the Intel agencies. Is that your perception? I mean, look at Chuck Schumer's. comment. Yes, They. have six ways Sunday to get back. at you. Remember when he said that to Rachel. Maddow? Oddly? Yeah. And, you know, she didn't look too. surprised. I think it's a known. it's a known quantity. Obviously goes back to Hoover. that was very well.

known within Intel. People say, yeah, you know, that guy. has a Hoover file on him, meaning this or that policymaker. Something is known that means. that. So that's real? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, look at the speaker of the. House whose views on everything kind. of changed instantly on the. on the foreign policy questions. And I think. what are the I mean, there's never. been a more obedient. speaker to the to the.

will and whims of the Intel. community than Mike Johnson. And you sort of wonder, like, what. is that? Well. I mean, know the answer. But you look at, you know. The legislation that has come up. through the House on multiple. things, you know, on election. integrity, on. MP preparedness, both are. two completely different. things. Both of them actually. the Shield Act in both. cases, but several other iterations.

that passed the House with. real bipartisan support and. then just got completely. gummed up in the Senate. And these are. things that seem. so. Unassailable and. supported across the board by, you know, regular. American voters and the base across. both parties that. you have to. You have to ask.

What? What? Hoover Files are involved. And if not a Hoover file, then. a you know, I second house wherever. But I think that. We know corrupt. It's hard even to believe it is. It is. But it's harder to believe. that we're not going to do anything. to root it out, you know? And I think you have to name a. problem and really. recognize it before you can fix. it. And it's something that I admire.

about what, you. know, Matt Taibbi and. Shellenberger did with the Twitter. files was for Elon to go in. and say. You know, before I even touch. anything on day one, please. document for posterity. all of the abuses that have been. happening here so that A, we can fix them. And B, the American. people know this was happening and. can prevent it from happening again.

And, you know, if that hadn't happened, we wouldn't. know what to so had been up to, which also oversees election. integrity, by the way, and. how important that. It oversees election integrity. Yeah, those are it's two. it's two outside of, you know, bridges and ports and regular. infrastructure. Those are its two. big focuses or so and. censorship of social media and. election integrity. Of course you can't have.

From that the. Integrity with censorship, because censorship is itself. an interference in the democratic. process, certainly. I mean, when you. look at the. Hunter Biden laptop story and, you know, it's been so. successfully kind of sidelined. that it's hard to even. bring up honestly, we all kind of. roll their eyes the not the Hunter. Biden laptop story again. But what I. find really. astounding about that is that,

you know, it was Tony Blinken as. a campaign official for. for now. President Biden, who. rang up the CIA and said, you know, we have a debate next week. and we need to be able to rebut. this. And can you write this letter? And. In it. I mean, it's just. such clear politicization. of our security services, which. is foundationally against. everything.

that I was told when when I. started there, I was told that if. you had a partizan. pin in the felt of your cubicle. wall, you can be fired. And here we have. you know, that's for the rank and. file. But the seventh floor. Are you writing. false intelligence estimates to. get a presidential candidate out of. hot water for. his son's documentation.

of business deals that frankly. look pretty corrupt. and that the. voter should get. to make up their own mind about? And maybe you're somebody who. would look at the correspondence in. that laptop and not be bothered by. it. But you should get to make that. decision before you cast your. vote. And having. a government agency where? You know, the.

the CIA can come in and say. this is Russian disinformation. When it flat out was not was. completely authentic. And then Caesar. can actually get. to work for the coming four years. while that person is president. Memory hauling that because every. single post about it. is then flagged as misinformation. is. truly a violation. of election integrity,

if ever there was one. I mean, all of the studies around. that, the. polling around it say that it would. have changed a sufficient enough. votes to have an impact on the. election. And if having your security. services step in to. lie about. a foreign adversaries. involvement in the election in order. to conceal from voters. correspondence of your own. corrupt dealings with other foreign. adversaries.

And have it change. The outcome of the election is not. interference. It's hard to know what it's. So nicely put. Were you shocked by that when you. saw it? I was shocked by it. When? When I realized that. I. That it was intentionally. manufactured in that way. I mean, I think when I first. heard it, you know, it seemed unlikely to me, but.

I hadn't really fully caught on. at that point. How. manufactured the entire, you know, laptop. story was. Like it? A it seemed like. too audacious. An intrusion into domestic. political life. I felt like they wouldn't. they wouldn't have gone that far. that publicly to just. out now lie about it.

And, you know. And they did. And not only did they, but then. The person who who orchestrated. it. is now our secretary of state. Going and preaching democracy all. around the world. It's pretty dark. It must be bewildering for you. who are once part of the machine. Yeah. I mean, to. Yeah. I mean, I can walk around. That building in my, you.

know, with my eyes closed and say, you know, that door goes to this. office. And I go. And nowhere in any of those offices. was the like. Overthrow governments. and meddle with domestic politics. Office Right. So, you know. I. I was never exposed. to it. And it could be because in. the early days I definitely. threw up the flag on a few things. and said, hey, this, you know, they. were using a lot of. honorifics in the early days.

after 911 where kind of. in English it would be like. Mr.. Dr.. You know, but after 911, everybody was in, in Arabic. language throughout reporting. or they were getting Arabic language. throughout reporting from their. sources, and they were not. Arabic speakers. And so there were these huge. files for people like. High G l Yemeni, just like someone who's completed. the Hajj and comes from Yemen, are just, you know, many,

many people, to put it mildly. And. and so. picking one person up and, you know, rendering them to another country. because they fit. that description when it's not a. name and it's not an identifier was, you know, but a human rights. nightmare. Did that happen? Different name. But I remember raising my hand. around that because I was taking. like Arabic 101.

And in my. last year of grad school at. Georgetown and I had a wonderful. Egyptian professor and he had. just done a class on honorifics. at the beginning to kind of like. warm people up and teach them. pronunciation. And I was literally that far. And I mean, so, so brand new. And if that hadn't happened, I. wouldn't have recognized it. But. And. It ended up, you know, actually being right. I mean, they had then they it. was the wrong person. And by the time that was recognized.

that, you know, force. fed him through his nose and, you. know, just a whole human. rights nightmare. That's a story. Sorry. Yeah. So. So, so horrible. as to not be. They force fed him through his. Well, I'm I'm sharing. what was in public. Just just to be clear, I'm sharing. what was in the public accounts. So I you know, I don't want. to get go beyond that. But it was the first time that I. said, you know, this is who do I.

talk to about this? This should not you know, this. shouldn't be happening. And I think from that moment on, my. senses that I was kind of. put in the pile of like, this is a person who, well, maybe she's not. going to just go along. Right? Like, she'll she. will make trouble. I think I got filtered. out of the. Gulf, foment coups in foreign. country or a. recruitment program,

thank God. But I never witnessed any of that. there. It was actually really once. I left that. in some ways I feel like my. education on the intelligence world. began. And I knew a lot of really. great people there. Intellectually curious, smart, good hearted. Many theologians, many poets, like a really. interesting, unique group of people. who argued a lot about where we. should be and what we should be. doing and. the morality of things. I didn't find it to be an evil.

place at all. But I also am aware that I never. came across any of the kinds of. operations that you know. now are being uncovered. And so I think I was working, you know, the key keeping. nuclear precursors out of the hands. of terror suspects is like. a fairly easy. moral choice. Right? And so I. never.

was exposed to any of that. And it was deeply distressing. after leaving to. to watch. All of the subsequent. declassification of what was being. done at Abu Ghraib. and elsewhere. And, you know, Karzai in Thailand, and I hadn't hadn't been. aware of any of that. And then to. see it weaponized domestically. was the point, because, of course, that's the end.

of that story. When you really think about it, Yeah, you know, there's no. in the end, the way that. we treat other people is how we. treat ourselves. The way that we. treat people outside ends up in our. home. You know, it's just the. natural way of things. And I think it's no surprise. when we have. Subjugated the world and to kind of. us versus them thinking and control. being at our kind of benevolent, benevolent control, being our. love language globally as a nation,

that, you know, our our. leaders end up doing the same thing. at home and. Feeling like it's noble. So again, nicely put. You made reference. a moment ago to changes. under in the first year of the Biden. administration, first months. to her MP preparedness. Can you explain what an MP is. and what changed?

Yeah, I mean, this is increasingly relevant now. and it's. It's a great credit to President. Trump that he prepared us for it. and then, unfortunately for. President Biden, that he revoked it. So let me sort of explain a little. about what it is. Do you remember over the last couple. of weeks there's been there have. been solar storms and. we've gotten to see the northern. lights much, you know, farther.

south, which is beautiful. And maybe people were warned there. might be slight disruptions to. electronics, but for the most part, it's been it's been. beautiful and uneventful. Those solar storms. can be far more powerful. than that, naturally. So before even getting into. human weaponizing of that, there have been lots of examples. But the Carrington event is probably. the best known.

in 1959 and. was so I mean, as you know, telegraph. operators. on fire set forest. fires your damage there. The transatlantic cable miles. beneath the ocean and. Nassau says that were. it to happen. again. Now, given the interconnected. electrical grid that didn't exist. then that, you know, we'd be.

looking at, I am. at darkness around most of. the globe, possibly for. years, up to seven years is what. they have said. And that these are. that these electromagnetic ejections. happen from the sun every 100, 150 years of that of. that magnitude. Of course, that was, you know, in. 1850. So we're coming up. due for one. Their current estimate is about 12%. chance per decade.

It's sort of a non-zero. chance, fairly likely that in our lifetime. or our kid's lifetime, we will. experience another one of these. Carrington events. In fact, there was 1 in 2012 that. came extremely close to us that. would have been absolutely catastrophic. but didn't didn't hit. And then there would be no. electricity for. years. Right. And. that, you know, that sounds. inconvenient. And, you know, maybe people can see. how it would be. You know, it would cause some loss. of life. But I think there's part of us, when.

we hear that, that thinks like. I could use a break from Twitter, you know, like it might be kind of. nice. The thing is that. What? What people don't realize is that. the world is no longer what it was. in the 19th century, that. that almost everything. at this point involves. what they call skater systems, which. are these small computers. that use sensors to move. valves or, you.

know, whether it's how. many how much natural gas can move. through a pipeline, when to. turn on the coolers in a nuclear. power plant to make sure that. there's not a meltdown, when to. allow water. to go over the Hoover Dam. to prevent flooding. You know, air traffic control, traffic lights and so on, all operated by skate systems now. And those. are are all susceptible. to to this exact.

same. kind of attack. or in the early days. You know, what we were just talking. about was in in the case of a solar. flare. But humans. being what they are, they've learned. to weaponize this. Right. And we know this because we. have done it. Starfish Prime was the first test in. 62 where the U.S. realized that. this could be used as a weapon. and did the test. above the Pacific and it knocked.

out, you know, capabilities in. Hawaii and farther. beyond. And so there was that. recognition. We now know that the. the Soviets figured it out even. earlier. They told us during the kind of. détente in the 90s. that they had already done seven. tests at that point over Kazakhstan. and wiped the entire. power grid of of Kazakhstan. actually, you know, created a lot. of suffering in the process. But they saw it as having. huge potential as a weapon.

because of that and began. developing out, you know, what they. called super EMP, which is. very specifically. tuned not. for yield, but for electromagnetic. pulse. And these are you know, these. are detonated 30km or. so above the country. So you're not actually destroying. anybody with the. with the explosion. It is with the. using the amps to kill the grid.

What is now by. many of our adversaries mentioned in. their military manuals as no contact. wars. So this is, you know, when World. War three, without ever having. to have contact with the adversary. And when you look. at the delivery mechanisms. that are available here. and the way that we're. seeing empires. discussed and China and Iran. and Russia and North. Korea,

there are a wide variety of them. I mean, North Korea in 2013. ran the exact optimal. orbit with. its KSM three satellite over. New York and Washington, D.C. There would be the optimal delivery. for this kind of. a weapon. And on the very same day. in April of 2000, 13. seven, military special forces essentially.

that have never been identified. in to to. break into a. substation. PGE any substation near. San Jose in California. and. North Korean. Well. thought to be North Korea and never. actually identified or apprehended. exactly the same day on the West. Coast that they did the satellite. run on the East Coast.

What they do at the Beijing. substation, their gas. and electric, by the. Way, is for. Our East Coast. Viewers, very easy case. They were. assessed to be extremely. professional by the Seal trainers. who came in later to look at the. site. They knew about an underground. comms tunnel, that they went in and. cut communications and. use sniper fire. to damage, but not take off line. 17 transformers.

Within the United States. In the United States. Yeah, we we we had a North Korean. team of tours or saboteurs. sent by. Certainly professional special. forces of some variety. thought to be North Korean. just outside San Jose. in Coyote Coyote, California. We did an interview with a woman. called Casey Means. She's a Stanford educated surgeon. and really one of the most. remarkable people I have ever.

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I don't. Remember. No. It was about this very, very. downplayed as. vandalism. And, you. know. Two months later, July. we had or a few months later. in July, they found. two. Assad, two nuclear. capable missiles in. the the Bay. of A of a tanker. in the Gulf of Mexico.

And this was all. really as the as the. North Korean tensions were. mounting. You know which President. Trump gets far too little credit, in. my opinion, for that. resolution or detente. And now, you know, under Biden-Harris we have. We have North Korean troops being. pulled by Putin and to the war in. Ukraine. So that escalation is. is back in play again. But those are three.

distinct ways to attack our. electrical grid that were all. mounted within, you know, a handful of months. And as a result, in 2014, the North had announced that they. were fully moving. and investing hundreds of millions. of dollars into further rad. heartening shit, Cheyenne Mountain. So they've taken it very. seriously for their own force. protection, which is good, but not for the rest of us. And can you just give us. the CliffsNotes? On what?

What that means? Hardening Cheyenne Mountain. Okay. So. It's actually very easy if you put. your phone in the microwave. Right. It is it is. safe from this kind of. electromagnetic radiation. And so the question is, when you. look at something as complex. as our entire national grid, what. are the nodes that are most. vulnerable to this kind of attack? And really, there are sort of two categories.

that are the highest consequence. One are these Skitter systems. that would allow for the. resulting forest fires and. nuclear meltdowns and floods. and plane crashes. and hospital failures. and traffic crashes and so forth. If they fail and they. are as easy to protect as, you know, putting them in a metal. shed instead of a wooden shed. or taking the wooden sheds that. exist and covering.

them with, you know, metal mash. to the to the point that, you know, you could put that out for. people in each community. with sparks. And I'm sure that they would get. together on a Sunday and do it, you. know. But regulation in our. country doesn't allow us to do that. So the set of systems. protecting those and then. the extra high. voltage transformers are. a huge issue.

and a sticking point for our grid. They only make about 200 of them a. year and. they're incredibly expensive, hundreds of tons, you know, to move. And the coils are done mostly. by hand. Amazingly, I mean, they're. custom made and. they were invented here in the US. Tesla invented them here, but. we don't make them anymore. And. most of the ones for export are made. in Germany or South Korea. and they're.

they're design custom for each. spot. So it's very hard to have. extras for each one on hand. And I think. they need to be in. Faraday cages, which is, you. know, sounds fancy, but it's. basically just a. Wire mesh cage. Yeah. Wire mesh cage. And you know the. benefit of this despite, you know, in addition to protecting against. this kind of attack, is that. there are a lot of other grid. vulnerabilities that.

are maybe maybe lower. damage when they happen. But higher likelihood, you know, an. attack or a. solar flare are low probability, high catastrophe events. But weather related damage. is is the opposite or. sometimes catastrophic in its. impact, as we've seen recently. Right, in North Carolina. and elsewhere. And a lot of the same. guards around, especially around. protecting from cascading.

scatter failures where, you know, the the charge. can be. the surges can be prevented. is really important to. the MP safety, but also would help. prevent in those kinds of storm. environments. And then you look at sabotage and. vandalism, which is another really. big issue that they have to protect. against and a fair day cage, depending on its construction, can. also, you know, prevent people.

from seeing where it is that they're. that they're letting off small arms. fire that they're targeting, which we see. I mean, you know, when. I drove in here. When you first arrive in your town. on the left, there's a little. substation and it has a chain. link fence around it. You know, no cameras. And that's the same all over the. country. And everyone just sees. those, you know, they see the little. coils and don't really think. much of it. But I've been here.

50 years and never noticed it was. there. And it's right. I mean, and that's. true. Ah, I just, you know, we're. so accustomed to to. filtering these things out. But the entire. basis of our life and our community. and our country and our national. security and our health care, our financial system all. relies on them. And it's not just, you know, detonating a nuclear weapon above. the United States. Obviously, there's a deterrent. effect.

Ah, there would be. a response because. Iron Mountain and other parts are. completely hardened. So even if the entire country were. out, you know, the United States. would be able to respond. And has had. subs overseas and so on. But. You can achieve pretty. much the same impact with. commercially available empty. suitcases that you. can buy for industrial reasons. with no, you know, no special license or anything.

like that. And you know, if you. pick the right nine substations. to put that suitcase next to. you have achieved the exact same. thing. And as you can see, you know, with. the the San. Jose attack, those people were never. actually seen on camera and they. were never I mean, you can see them. as figures, but they were never. identified. So there's vandalism there. Natural weather events,

including the solar. flares, the storms that you. mentioned. And then there's EMP. So the threats to the grid and. to our the lives of 350. million Americans are completely. real and in some sense imminent. Like we know this is going to happen. at any point. So the federal response. hardening the grid. changed when Biden got elected. Yeah. And this is what is. really hard to. accept. And it's very similar,

actually, to what happened with the. border wall, which is here you have. two policies, the MP. executive order that President Trump. was the first president to ever. direct all parts of government. to work together to be sure that the. American people were protected. from intentional. attack. After decades of knowing. that. Our primary adversaries were all. considering it. Training for it had. weapons programs designed to. do this. And by the way, I.

mean, before we got to Biden, you know. The primary delivery. mechanism in all of those tests. was a high altitude balloon. You know, when we. then have China, a primary. adversary, who we know. have talked in their training. sessions and their training manuals. about using high altitude balloons. to deliver this kind of an empty. device and have done tests where.

it's the same exact payload as. the high altitude balloons that were. recovered. And then you have Russia. I'm sure you remember last year. Washington worked itself into quite. a justified, in my opinion, stayed about, you know, the quote unquote space. nuke. Right. Putting a nuclear. weapon into orbit. on a satellite. And at the time the media made. it out like.

This was maybe a danger. and even if it was a danger is only. a danger to other satellites right. now. Would it would get in the way. of your car's. GPS and, you know, maybe it would be problematic. for the military. And so we should pay attention to. it. But they definitely downplayed. its impact on anyone on the ground. Right. And yet we know from. Past Russian. trials and the,

the AC three satellite that. that the North Koreans sent over. that this kind of delivery. is the exact same. setup as an anti-satellite weapon. You put a nuclear. weapon on. a satellite headed up from. the south where we have. virtually no detection. set up. And the. you don't even get the 22. minutes that you would get with a.

solar flare. It just comes completely out of the. blue and there's no preparation. whatsoever. And in general, in the. you know, in the military theory of. these of these adversaries, it's a multipronged attack. Right. That's the initial you take. out, you know, send. everybody into chaos and you take. out their ability to communicate. with one another. And then it's followed by. whatever comes next. And. For us to know.

to have seen that in, you know, war games. in at least two of our largest. adversaries, both Iran and Russia, have included in their their. training simulations. It's in three of their manuals. China, Russia and Iran. Russia, we know, is putting a nuclear weapon in. in orbit. China's sending the space force. I mean, the high altar boys have. already come across our own. territory.

North Korea, three, a three way attack. simulation. But all three were. successful. Clearly, this is on. the minds of our adversaries and. it's an imminent danger is certainly. the the vulnerability, the you know, the area in which. we are most vulnerable for maximum. casualties and impact. And yet. President Trump was the first. president to to say.

across different parts. of government who sometimes have a. hard time talking to one another. I want you to work together to. make sure that the American people. are protected from this. And by the way, it's not even that. expensive in the big scheme of, you. know, government spending. They have to do it really well. The cost estimate was $2 billion, which, you know, we've just sent. another hundred billion to. Ukraine. So. then Biden takes office.

And frankly, my mind just. inconceivably revokes. that. And. in the same way that he says. with the wall, you know, both of. those, to my mind, are. initiatives that are already. underway that. are designed to protect. the American people's. security and. homeland.

And he reversed for, you know, with no with. no replacement plan in place. But. You know, with the border wall, you. could. And I think that's a. A more complex topic than. we appreciate. Like, what is the. point of what they just did? I don't know. But at least there was a. perceived political constituency. in favor of mass immigration. They thought it would make it a one. party state. That's why they're for. it. Got it.

What could possibly be. the motive for not defending. yourself in a sensible way from an. MP attack? Like, I don't get that at all. Support from the electrical. industry. Really? Yeah. There's a huge amount of. pushback, so. it gets a little bit in the weeds. and boring. But there are these two. things. The nurse and the fuck. Yeah. Yeah. And they are supposed to regulate. one another, basically, or one, you know, Ferk is supposed to. regulator. and unsurprisingly,

and that kind of a cozy. relationship, it doesn't work. And they. do have some self-imposed. standards, but they are. for a reasonably light. solar storm and would not. come anywhere close to being able to. withstand any kind of nuclear. fallout. and really push back. on the costs that would be. involved. And. the difficulty, you know,

it could be passed on to consumers. at $0.20 per consumer per year, which I think most consumers, when. they really understand that. this is this would, you know, keep their power on not just. in those extreme circumstances, but also help in storms and with. vandalism and with these. Other and keep millions from. starving to death. Right. Billions, potentially. I mean, these are global. I mean, in our in. our country, not but but. these certainly will be global. issues and there will be global.

competition for. the very slow to build transformers. that would fix them. Right. And so it's really. important to recognize the. Everybody else will be going through. the same thing at the same time. It's not like you can. find a way to walk to outside. of that area so that you can. get order something and bring it. back in. Right. In terms of rebuilding your grid. So potentially catastrophic. non-zero chance of it happening.

I mean, 12% per decade. is. And I should say that the MP. committee that Congress. put in place and. unfortunately was disbanded under. President Obama, but prior prior. to that included. really the intelligence community's. best analysts based on all. of the testing that they'd seen. hostile countries do. Their estimate was 8 to. 9 out of every ten Americans. could lose their life by the end.

of the first year, which. is a staggering an almost impossible. to believe estimate until you. realize that. You know, within obviously. at the outset, you have. half a million people in the air at. any given time on a thousand. flights. Right. So that's lost right away. And then everyone. On an airplane does. Right. So that's half a million. people at any moment. At any given moment. And then you have, you know, obviously.

traffic and everything that. that happens. in that immediate chaos. But very quickly after that, the Skitter systems begin to fail. and you have fire, you have. flood within 72 hours. You have meltdown. at all nuclear facilities. And then. refrigeration has gone out. at supermarkets and other. regional food warehouses.

So the food supply and. there's no you know, there's. no access to ATMs or money. or financial structure of any any. type, no access to your prescription. medications, you know, no access. to law enforcement. and no clean water and no food. So unless, you know, you have your burki that. you can put lake water in and, you know, a year's worth of food. and a way to protect yourself,

you know, you've which the. vast majority of Americans don't. have. You are in an incredibly vulnerable. position that there's absolutely. no reason to risk putting our own. people in if. You're and that's just for people. who are outside the cities. But if you're in the middle of a. tightly packed metro area, you're. just done. Yeah. And this the I mean, I can't. even imagine people's be having, you know, covered chaos in Baghdad. and. Right. Hurricane Katrina. You know, anyone who's ever seen. the, you know, disappearance of.

authority knows that like, within. hours, people start going crazy. and hurting each other. And you have you know, you have your. kids in your apartment. And how do you get them out and how. do you get them to safety and where. do you take them? And, you know, the prospect of even. rolling any kind. of dice to. put our our own people in that. situation while then. glibly taking the money that we. could spend doing that and instead. send it to. To arm Ukraine.

when sending ballistic missiles. into Russia using. American satellite. It puts us. in a direct hot war with. Russia for the first time ever. You know, that that actually. puts us at a higher risk of this. kind of attack than ever in. our history. And at a moment. where instead of spending. our money to protect ourselves from.

that attack, we're actually spending. our money to provoke that attack. We did a live tour last month. One of the funniest things we've. ever done. Coast to coast, 16. different cities speaking. Well, next week, our grand. finale, Halloween, October. 31st, 2024, in Glendale, Arizona. Our special guest that. night. Days before the presidential. election, Donald Trump. All proceeds donated to hurricane. relief. We're proud to do it. Hope to see you there.

So I don't know that 1. in 1,000,000 Americans has ever. heard any. Really? Anything you just said or certainly. not heard it fleshed out in the. way that you just did. And yet when you hear it, it makes sense and it's clearly. true. So that raises the question about. our information, you know, the. integrity of our information. sources. And why aren't. we hearing this from the.

press, from the media? And don't understand that? Well, you know, I think there's. a party line right now. in the media, if you haven't. noticed, And. this, I think, does not support the. security states. Thesis about I are. about. How safe. The current administration has made. us in the world. Right. And, you know, when you look. at.

when you look at the. Economy versus. stability. You know, four years ago and now it. is just absolutely. clear that we should be talking. about the fact that the world has. been set on fire over the last four. years, and yet it's really not. front and center in our news at all. with, you know, with the exception. of of. the Middle East, which, you know, gets, I think, pretty. slanted coverage. So I.

Think. You know, having come through two years of the. RFK campaign, I will tell you, it. is. I mean, it's truly amazing to me how. to what degree a media blackout. really can be coordinated. and and be successful. What was. Your. Tell us what was your. experience? I mean, it was clear to me pretty. early on that, you know, you were. if you were someone who had heard. From Bobby,

then you were someone who. was at least considering voting for. him. And many of those. people, you know, were very clear. that he was should be the next. president of United States. So you're either somebody who had. heard from Bobby or you were. somebody who had heard about Bobby. Right. From your cable news. source or from your newspaper. and so on. And it. you know, you begin to realize when. you're on the inside of, you know, the receiving end of all. of that is that.

At every place. You know, anything that you know. about this election, you know about. it because you have read. or heard or seen it. on a platform. that has a commercial. interest in the outcome of the. election. Right. I mean, you look at Google at. hundreds of millions of dollars in. in. pharmaceutical ad revenue, billions. of dollars in pharmaceutical ad. revenue that Bobby. said in his very first speech.

when he announced for president that. he would bring us in line with the. rest of the world by banning. pharmaceutical advertising on TV. You know, what business do you know. that is going to give fair. coverage to somebody that could cost. them billions of dollars a year in. their business model? You know, it's not in their. fiduciary interest. And it's the same you know, we see. it with certainly all. the cable news channels who are also. reliant on pharmaceutical. advertising. And then, you know, the. reliance, I mean, Bobby's. determination to cut access.

military funding when so many. of these media companies. have bought entanglements or common. ownership with. defense contractors or are. themselves I mean, you look at. Amazon Web Services and The. Washington Post and, you know, GE. and NBC and so forth. I mean, there's a long, long history. of that. And how much does Boeing spend. on Politico every year? I mean. But so that is kind of the I didn't. understand this actually, until. Bobby explained it to me. Having spent my entire life in the.

media, in television, not. realizing the point of the. pharmaceutical ads, was not to sell. the drugs to consumers who can. prescribe the drugs to themselves, of course. That never made sense to me. And I didn't get the obvious point, which is it's protection money. Yeah. And that's. Exactly how I never got. That. I mean, sometimes you even see. the Boeing ad or, you know, the. Northrup ads, and it's like. impossible. As a consumer, you. there's you actually can't there's. no way to buy their product. No. This is like completely naked. bribery. But I never thought of that.

Yeah. Like, why you're like, why are you. Advertising in Politico? Like, what. Is going to buy a bomber? It's to keep its reporters from. criticizing. That's right. It is their entire. expenditures. It's their salary, and they know it. And, you know, a. free market is a free market. Fine. But when. when voters are so steeped. in our media environment and. especially with algorithmic things. where, you know, they're seeing.

their Google News feed. and every single time they see Bob. his name, he is like a. psychopathic, crazy, dog eating, you know, joke. Right. And that was their approach. was either to absolutely not cover. him whatsoever. I mean, he would give these. extraordinary speeches at this. peace speech that he did in New. Hampshire in the at the outset of. the campaign. and the. America Strong speech about building. a unity government based on. Lincoln's team of rivals were two.

of the most. incredible speeches. of the campaign, and neither of them. were all attended by 30, 40 reporters with cameras, obviously waiting for him to say. some terrible thing so they could. play that one clip and then none of. them ran any of it because they. you know, because they were such. strong speeches. And so we. we were up against that throughout. And, you know, how. the American I mean, obviously been. around. You worked at BBC. You've been around the American. media your for your whole.

life. But did you appreciate. how this works before you. started running this campaign? Not nearly to the degree. that, you know, the the degree. of politicization was. surprising to me. And I think I had not. really come to understand the. the kind of deep commercial drivers. behind editorial lines. And I. You know, I guess it had a little. bit of idealism still from the.

old like Edward R. Murrow, like, you know, there must. be some journalists still out there. kind of thing. And they've been. very few and far between. I mean, I really. I'm hard pressed to even come up. with an example. I'm glad to be. sitting across from you. But I will say thank God. for Elon Musk. Yes. I mean, I really believe that every. American should include him and his. family in their prayers every day. because, you. know, he is holding.

our Constitution together right now. And, you know, even. the Internet Archive is offline, so there's nothing left. There's no other way to know. And sure, are there things on there. that turn out not to be true? Absolutely. Are there things on. there that you're going to disagree. with or find offensive? Absolutely. And, you know, such as the nature of. free speech and it's audacious. and bold. and beautiful and sometimes. infuriating. But that's. what we've built our entire country. on. And when it I mean, I.

remember recently explaining. this to my daughter and and she. was you know, she's five. and. She was asking me why? Why I'm always traveling. I'm working in the moment. And and I. was explaining. about the importance of free speech. and and how I wanted her to. have it when she was older. And she said, So are there countries. where if you criticize the leader. You know, they'll put you in jail. And I said, yes, there are there are. a lot of those countries that they.

used to be all the countries, basically. And when you when you go back and. you look at the. At the audacity of what that idea. was at the beginning and the fact. that it wasn't happening anywhere. else. And then hundreds. of of other countries now have. followed suit and that. we're just going to give that. up. For the shortsighted gain of one. political party in one election. cycle or one blob.

for, you know, 5 to 10 election. cycles while, you know, their. lust for power continues. And that as a result, because no. government is ever going to cede. power given to in an emergency. So even once that runs. its course, it still means that my. kids kids will. not have the freedom. of speech that, you know, that they that is their birthright. given to them by our country's. founders. And I just can't I can't. abide that. I can't let it happen.

And. to see Elian, who wasn't even born. in this country, step. up and defy. the commercial interests. You know, I don't know his finances, but it seems to me that he has taken. a serious financial hit. Serious to protect. He's not a money worshiper. Right. Unlike so many billionaires, just to be blunt, they're money. worshipers. That's why they're. billionaires. Right. He's not. No. And I think he.

is genuinely driven by. The desire to see human freedom in. your. And. I don't know why more. of us are. Not because. there's nothing more important. And. It's ours to lose, you know? And. It's bewildering to me when I. hear people say, well, you know,

our government can be trusted with. those like they can make the. judgment of what I should be able to. say and what I shouldn't. And he just. The idea that. But what about the next leader? You know, everywhere as it is, if. Federalist 51, the. one where Madison talks about, you. know, if if men were angels, we. wouldn't be a government of. government. We're angels that. wouldn't need to be regulated. But we are making you. know, the challenge is making a. government of of men. over men and.

And yet they took on that challenge. and achieved it so beautifully. And I remember Mr. SA and C.S. tell about my. last two years of high school in DC. When I came back to the United. States telling. telling us about Skokie versus. Illinois and I and just being. incredibly. moved by the. courage that it takes as a society. to defend.

such abhorrent speech. Yes. Because you know that, you know, it's it's not a sliding scale. It's just you either have it or you. don't. And it's Salman Rushdie who. says the minute somebody says, I believe in free speech, except, you know, stop them right there. because they don't need to finish. the sentence. But I guess I just refer back. to my first question, which is since I'm so familiar with, you know, all the schools you. went to, the credentials you have, you know, the world that you're. from. I mean, you've got to be in the one.

tenth of 1% of people, you know, who've taken this position. You took such an unpopular position. And I know, you know, you married in. the family and all that, but still, you became Bobby Kennedy's campaign. manager and now. Bobby Kennedy's endorsed Trump. Yeah. And I just. don't think you could hoist. a bigger middle finger in the face. of the world you're from. I mean, I. just know that because I know that. world. So did you even hesitate before. doing that? What was your thinking? And I'm sure none of your classmates. did anything like that. Why did you do that?

You know, I think that if you. gave them the choice, I mean, if they came down from Mars. and you put. The exact occur. You know what is happening right now. in front of them without the names. of the parties or the names of the. participants and said, you know, you have. one for your stand. where no new wars are started, where, you know, Brad costs half of.

what it costs now, gas a third, you know, etc., etc.. You know, rises in. standard of living across the. country, lower suicide. rates. Lower depression. Yeah, lower homelessness, lower incarceration, lower. immigration. That is, you know, illegal. and and and. results in in. children being lost around. the country. And then you compare it with.

Four years of another government. that has endorsed, by the way, by. Dick Cheney now and. a host of neo cons that involves. two new wars, you. know, printing $8. trillion of additional debt. And that is a tax on the poor. and on. future generations. in order to pay for more war, more children. going into poverty.

more. You know that we have a real. unemployment rate of 25%. in this country. A quarter when. you take into account people who. want a full time job. and don't have one or people who. have a full time job but don't make. $25,000 a year, which. is not a living wage. If you take that into account, we. have 24.9%. true unemployment rate. So I think that you. asked about people in my world. I think if you put any of that to.

them. And then on top of that said, you know, and this this leader that. has plunged people into poverty and. unemployment and, you know, had to two. additional wars start on his watch. is censoring. Speech on social media, weaponizing the courts to take. people of his own party and. every single other party off of the. ballot. I mean, literally D. envelops Marianne Williamson, Robert Kennedy Jr.

Obviously President Trump, you know, labels. Jill stein, everybody. There's nobody that. As far as I know, that didn't face. some kind of a lawsuit to. try to challenge their. actual ballot access. The ability for an American to turn. up and exercise their own. sacred individual sovereignty of. thought and choose whether or not to. vote for them. Every single one of them. Was attacked in court to get their. name off of a ballot.

It's like we believe in democracy. You can vote for anyone as long as. it's me. Ed and I. I believe that anyone. who. Well who I knew growing. up and hopefully. any American that I didn't know. growing up. When when they. see it with the. in-group outgroup coding. stripped away. Would all I mean, would all. choose the same.

outcome here. I think the challenges that. You know, we are evolutionarily. designed to. To, you know, retain. the approval of our group. When you're walking across the, you know, the early savanna and. your your group. shuns you, you know, you're. out of luck. Right. It's a lot harder to survive. And I there is.

There's a study that DARPA. did around news, you know, reading. news where they. said they expected the. frontal lobe to light up because you. were assessing. The logic of what you were reading. And actually a lights up second. after this area over the ear, which is if. you hold up a shirt and. think about whether your friends. would make fun of you if you wore. it.

So, you know, you are using. your analytical mind, but only. after you've already decided whether. you're using it to. poke holes or, you know, to. reinforce. And I think that. honestly, my friends who don't. support President Trump, I think. that's why, you know, it is. I guess. But everything you said is. true. And for the third time, nicely. put. But I also. have a little more difficulty giving. that group a pass because that's our. that's our leadership class.

raised and to some extent, to be brutally honest, bread. to rule. And every society has that class, and that's fine with me. I think it's inevitable. It's part of the human ordering. But that class should be able. to think critically and rationally. That's their job. And they're not. And I just don't understand how this. happened. A total breakdown. in the sort of. mental faculties of the people who. run everything. Like, what the hell? Yeah. I mean, part of it, I think,

is this intentional, addictive, hypnotic quality of of. media and social media that has. really intentionally been designed. that way. You know, calling means. talks about how the tobacco. companies bought, you know, the food. companies and sent over their. chemists and made them, you know, intentionally addictive. And that is horrifying. and true. I feel that the same has really. been done to our information. ecosystem. And part of.

it is for, you know, for for corporate profit. and part of it is for political. control. And as. I as that media environment. has also become more global. and these partnerships with, you. know, other parties in other. countries assist in. censorship, it's. I think it's difficult to. to think critically without. a single input telling you that.

you're living in The Truman Show. That's right. You know, and I mean, the agency that used to have this. these things called red teams. Right. Where they would in the. eighty's they started putting. people and. analysts in kind. of a bunker for 3 to 3. months or six months that. looked for all the world like you. were living in Soviet and the Soviet. Union and all. of the books that you had available. were all the things that you. would be reading if you were.

military or leadership class there. And you're listening to. live radio broadcasts in, you know, Russian and. just living the life of. a Soviet leader in the bunker. And every day you're writing what. you would do. You know, today I would. push on the Berlin Wall, etc.. And and that is actually. one of the things that came out of. it was when there was the. suggestion of the timing for when. Reagan should should push on. on bringing.

down the wall. But it allowed people. to really channel. their adversary to such a. degree that they were viewed. with a lot of suspicion. When they came out, it was like, well, now you've gone native, you know, now like. you. maybe you're the enemy now. And after 911, they started. ramping these things back up. around Islamic extremism and.

reading, you know, all of the old academic. writings of, you know, some of the the. more violent jihad leaders and so. on. And there that suspicion. remained as the better. you performed in there in terms. of really being able to get into. somebodies mind. The more suspicious people were. of you when you left and you were. generally put on some kind of like a. teaching assignment or. some. Yeah, somewhere you couldn't. really do any harm. And I, I, I tell that story because.

It's very interesting to me that. it's like a tacit acknowledgment. that. You are what you read or you. are what you're immersed in, Right? And you can have been, you know, this 1980s cold warrior. So much so that you're working, you. know, as an analyst. in Russia, house, CIA, presumably, you're like pretty dyed. in the wool, you know, blue team.

And then you do. this three months or you do this six. months. And it is so convincing, this immersion in the thoughts. and radio and. books and, you know, beliefs of your adversary. that you might just be lost. forever when you come out. Right? Like you might have just had. a full conversion experience. I think that is what's happened. I mean, I think that media. Approach approaches now. The experiment that's running all. around us all the time.

Yes, I agree with that. To such terrifying effect. I wish we had more time. There's always more time. on God's time. But this was. so nice to stop and actually. talk about some. some of the real challenges that, you know, I think sometimes in the. final weeks of the campaign, everything becomes about, you know, the day's polls or, you know, whatever the the.

media opportunity of the day was. And in the end, this is what's at stake. I mean, we're talking about. decisions over. the the very. constitutional ideals of this. country was built on the physical. safety of our communities, of our. families. I mean, you are putting. it's really one of the the only. times that as a parent, you. are putting the lives of. your children in.

the hands of. someone who frankly is a stranger to. you. And, you know, you. you when you look at. these scenarios. and then you look at these censorship. scenarios, you know, the the well-being of our. Constitution, of our children. and of human freedom is. At stake here. And, you know, if it. weren't and I wouldn't be. fighting for it so hard. Thank.

you for taking the time to really. dig in to those issues. rather than, you know, the the latest photo op of the day. You're welcome back any time. Thank you. Thanks, Tucker.