Ex-CIA Officer John Kiriakou on the Truth About Iran, False Flags, and What’s Really Happening in DC

John, thanks for doing this. Thanks for the invitation. So a lot of us have been trying to. figure out how we got into this war. with Iran. I think the reporting is clear at. this point that there was. really nobody at the White House. or in the American intelligence. community who was telling the. president, yeah, this. is gonna be really easy. Right. But he came to that conclusion. anyway. There's a lot speculation as. to why. But tell us about the process.

You're the president. You're trying to figure out what's. going to happen if you declare war. on this country. How do you, how do you find that? Where does that come from? Well, I can tell you how President. George H.W. Bush did it and how President George. W. Bush, did it. It's a process. You have to... Formal. Formal process. You have commission estimates. from the intelligence community. You commission intelligence, finished intelligence reports from.

the CIA's Directorate of. Intelligence. You get an idea of what the state. department is thinking about it. You're talking to your secretaries. of state and defense, the national. security advisor, but then, and I think this is even as. important, you need to. talk to your friends and allies. You need to know what the, what the. European countries are saying or. seeing. And then our Gulf allies, the Arab allies, we, we really. needed to engage with all. of them. And then there's. going to be a consensus at some.

point, at least among. most of those countries, and then. you come up with a policy. I think that that's not what. took place in this case. As, as you know, you've. heard the same criticisms that I've. heard in the Gulf. The complaints are that they were. not consulted as allies. They were just sort of brought. along. And I was in Europe a couple. of weeks ago and a couple of weeks. before that, and I heard the same. complaints that they weren't. consulted. The only apparent consultation.

That was taking place was with the. Israelis, and the Israelis really, really wanted this to get done. So why would you as a practical. matter need to consult other. countries? Cause there is this sense. like as an exceptional nation, we. don't need anyone's permission to. act. But again, not as an ideological. matter or a matter of. politeness or good form, but as. a practice matter before launching a. war, why do you need to talk to. Europeans in the Gulf States? At the very least, you're going to. want political cover. You're also going to wanna give them.

an opportunity. to come up with plan B. for their, let's say, oil or gas needs or. transportation issues. You don't want them to be taken by. surprise because they're gonna. resent you in the end. And we didn't do that and. they resent us. I'll give you an example. I was in Ireland two weeks ago. and at the hotel, They told me I was probably going. to have to leave extra early for. the airport because they were.

expecting the largest. demonstration in Irish. history. Which took place the next morning. and it was all because of. home heating oil prices and. gasoline prices. We didn't consult with the Irish. or the British or anybody. else before launching this thing. They were already having problems. because of the cutoff. Of home heating oil coming from. Russia because of the Ukraine war. And then this was just doubly. difficult for them.

And so gas was, we figured. it out. Gas was 12 and a half. dollars a gallon. I mean, if you don't have no. gasoline, 12 and. half dollars, a gallon and home. heating oil was astronomical to. the point where people were just, you know, freezing and. they're blaming us for it. So you want to be able to consult. our friends and allies so that they. have a chance to come up. with a plan to make the. hurt on their own people a little. bit less severe. Um,

Ireland is an enemy of Israel's, the prime minister and many cabinet. ministers in Israel have said. that they hate Ireland, they hate. Europe, they hate Europeans. So do you think that the. president's, um, reluctance or failure to bring. them into this conversation reflects. Israel's priorities? I hate to say it, but I do actually, I think that the Israelis, look, I understand what a. close friend and ally Israel is. and always has been.

I get it. But I feel like sometimes. we act in. Israel's best interests rather than. in our own best interests. I think this is one of those cases. The Israelis, of course, are going. to jump up and down and yell about. the Irish and Spanish. and the Italians. Right. But we should, you know, let. them vent and then do what's in. the best interest of the United. States. And I feel like we're not really. doing that. We're doing Israel's bidding.

for it. Have you seen this before? You said it's been a close. relationship. You were, for many, many years, that's true, since the formation of. the country really, 1948. And there's always been pressure to. help Israel go along with its. priorities. But have you seen other instances. when you served in government where. the United States government. put Israel's interests above those. of the United states? No, in fact, to the contrary,

in the Gulf War, the 1990-91. Gulf War and again in the Iraq War. from 2003 onward, we specifically. made decisions that were in. the best interests of the United. States to the point where the. Israelis complained vociferously. to us that they wanted. us to do A and instead we. did B because B was better for. the United States. And you know, we would say, well, you know that's, that's foreign. policy. You have your interests. We have our interests. There's no such thing as permanent. friends. There is such a thing as permenent.

interests. This is our interest and this is. what we're going to do. And that's. just not, it doesn't seem to be the. case today. I don't understand. how attacking. Iran was in us. national interests. I, I fully understand how. this was in. Israel's interest and the Israelis. have long wanted us to attack. Iran and to overthrow the. the regime in Tehran I get that. it's in their interests, but. I've never believed I don't think. any CIA officer past.

or present Believes or. has believed that the Iranians were. anywhere near a nuclear. weapon They don't. have a delivery system that. could deliver a nuclear weapons. to the United States. And, um, you know, when you've got. two national intelligence. estimates, a national intelligence estimate is. a sense of the entire intelligence. community, all 18 organizations. within the U S intelligence. community unanimously. concluding that there is.

no Iranian nuclear weapons. program twice. As well as the late, there's no. program, no program. No, I had told him and I. issued a fatwa in 2003. Declaring it a sin to. develop a nuclear weapon and then. the CIA twice said they don't. have a nuclear. weapons program. So it's interesting on that. question. So the fatwa. have been in place all these years, more than 20 years. We're told simultaneously that Iran. is a fanatical, suicidal,

homicidal theocracy, totally beyond reason. So besotted are they by their crazy. religious views. So there's that, but. we also can't take the. fatwas seriously because it's Iran. and why all the time. Right. But sometimes you can take things. seriously. Well, but I mean-. Well, but I mean, it's one or the. other, either it's a country that. issues fatwas and takes them. seriously and therefore we should be. afraid of them because they're a theocracy, or it's country that issue fake. fatwas because they don't really. believe in the idea of a fatwa. Like, what is it? God, God forgive me for quoting.

Hillary Clinton, but I'm going to. quote Hillary Clinton. She said when she was secretary of. state that she had come to the. realization that Iran was not. a theocracy. It was a military dictatorship. There was this theocratic group. that sort of sat on the top of the. heap, but, but the day-to-day. operation of the country was run by. the IRGC. Yep. And the IRRGC being. a military organization was going. to run the country as a military. dictatorship would. I think we should have addressed it.

that way. We shouldn't have gotten. wrapped around the axle on, on theocratic issues. We shouldn't have been afraid to. engage the Iranians. or maybe not even afraid, just. refusing to engage Iranians. We should have been constantly. engaged, whether it was through the. Qataris or the Omanis or. even the Algerians, there were. different ways in which we could. speak with the Iranian. and we just never, never bothered. I will add... I do not have rose-colored. glasses when.

thinking about the Iranians. I know what the Iranian's have done. The Iranians made an attempt to kill. me several decades ago. I haven't forgotten that. I know that they're bad guys. I know they've carried out terrorist. attacks and that they've killed. Americans in many of those terrorist. attacks. But we're talking single. digits over the last several. decades. Now, support for Hezbollah in. the 80s, the 90s, yes, very. bad, very big problem. The Houthis are a little bit of a, of a thorn in our side.

The Hamas thing, the CIA was. late to the game on the Hamas thing. because the, the analytic judgment. for a long time was incorrectly, I might add, that the Iranians. are not supporting Hamas because the. Iranians or Shia Muslim and Hamas is. Sunni Muslim, that was wrong. They were supporting a Hamas. I get all that. But, again... Hamas has never carried out an. anti-American terrorist attack. So was it in U S national interests. to attack Iran for supporting Hamas?

I think not. Hamas is designated a. terror group in the U S I think just. recently it was maybe. Trump one, maybe early Trump too. I don't recall, but I think yeah, recently it was designated. But Hamas has never carried out. a terror attack against Americans? We spend a lot of time talking about. Hamas. Yeah, and the Muslim Brotherhood, which also has never carried out a. terrorist attack on Americans. I'm not for either one, just for the. record. No, no, nor am I.

But I don't have strong feelings. about either one for the record. No. But why do we talk about both so. much? Ah, you know, it's been my. experience. I first came to. this realization when I, when I. first joined the CIA, we always have this need to. have a boogeyman, whether. it was, you know, Bolshevism. in the 1910s, whether it was socialism in. the twenties, in the early thirties, Nazism, legitimately so.

But then, in the 70s, the 80s, it became. Islamism. We, it's like, we always have to. have an enemy to rally around. So the older you get, you realize. how fast everything can change. One day everything is fine, it's. great, and the next day things are. not great at all. That's just the nature of it. But if you're realistic about that, you have to think about your family. If something happened to you, what. would happen to them? The problem is getting life. insurance is not only kind of.

depressing, it's a huge hassle. Medical exams, paperwork, waiting. weeks for approval. A lot of people just don't want to. deal with it, so they don't deal. with it, and it's not the right. answer at all, you've an obligation. to think through what would happened. if you are not here. And so we're partnering with Ethos. Ethos makes getting life insurance. super quick and very easy, it's 100%. online. You get a quote in seconds, you apply in minutes, and same day. of coverage. There's no medical exam, you just. answer a few very simple health. questions, and you get up to $3. million in coverage. Some policies as low as $30 a month.

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If you're looking for an enemy, there it is right there. With a death count, that seems like. the one. May I tell you a story? I hope you will. When I was the senior investigator. on the Senate foreign relations. committee, 2009. to 2011, end of. 2011, I. told the then chairman, John Kerry, I wanted to go to Afghanistan to do. a formal Senate study on. the heroin poppy crop, right? Afghanistan at the time was. producing 93%.

of the world's heroin. And so I flew to Afghanistan, went. to Bagram Air Base, I. told them I needed to fly to. Kandahar and then to Lashkar Gah, which is the capital of Helmand. province. And I was doing this study. Now as a, as a senior congressional. staff member, I had the rank of. brigadier general. This is the only time in my life I. ever pulled rank on somebody. And I said, they wouldn't take me. down there. And I say, I'm not. asking you. I'm telling you, you are going. to fly me to Kandahar and.

then we will fly to Lashkar Gah. and then will fly back to Bagram. So they, they relented. We went to Khandahar, did some. meetings. When we got to Lachkar Gha as you're. landing for as. far as the eye could see, all you see is heroin poppy. And so I said I want to go into. the poppy fields and I want to find. a farmer. And I want to talk to him. So I had security, I had a. translator, Pashto translator. We just drive out into the fields.

and sure enough, we stumble on. a poppy farmer. And I asked him a very naive. question. I said, instead of poppy, why don't you grow things that have. two growing seasons, like tomatoes. or onions or pomegranates? And he goes like this. The Americans told me in. 2001, that if I told. them where the Arabs were, I could. grow all the poppy I wanted. I said, what Americans told you you. could grow poppy? And just as I said the question, my.

military handler pulls me by the. arm. And he says, we're under. threat. We have to go back to the. base. I never got an answer. We got back into the Jeep and they. took me back to the helicopter I. flew back to Bagram. Actually, actually, like out of a. movie. So I. come back to Washington and. I said to the chief investigator, I said, I'm onto something here. This is not good. So I wrote it all up just as. I collected it. Well, I had a friend at DEA, the. drug enforcement administration,

and I called him. I said listen, I I'm going to send. you a paper, eyes only. I just want your thoughts on it. before I send it to John Kerry. So he calls me back a couple of days. later and he says, buddy, you. know, you're not going to get this. paper published, right? I said why not? He said, Afghanistan. produces 93% of. the world's heroin. Almost all of that heroin goes. to Iran and Russia, and. we want them to be addicted to. heroin, it weakens their.

societies. And I never got it published. Well, fast forward years later, that's disgusting. We've got a fentanyl epidemic in. this country. That fentanyls coming from China and. Mexico, they. want us. To be addicted to fentanyl because. it weakens our society. And that's why we're in the. predicament that we're. So you believe that the US. government allowed poppy production. in Afghanistan in order to weaken.

Iran and Russia? I do. And the reason I have come to. that conclusion is not because I'm. any smarter than anybody else. But do you know how much of the. world's heroin was produced in. Afghanistan in the last year of. Taliban rule, 2000? Not too much. Zero. None. They didn't grow any, not only did. they not grow any heroin poppy. in 2000, they were a. net food exporter. to Iran and to Pakistan. And as soon as we took over...

It was all about the heroin. So the idea that it's, that's quite amazing. That is a quite amazing statistic. Terrible. Does anyone in a meeting where these. plans are formulated say, you know, we're the United States, like we. can't flood other people's countries. with heroin. That's just so immoral. I never sat in a meeting like that. The meetings were all about how do. we win? How do we get a leg. up? How do, we implement the.

policy that we want whatever country. to follow. That was it. But if you intentionally. flood other people's countries with. heroin, it's. kind of hard to tell yourself you're. the good guy. Like that's... Oh, Tucker, that was something that. I struggled with for at. least half of my career at the. CIA. We're supposed to be the good. guys. So why are we doing so much of this? I just never understood it. And what was, what do you think the. answer is? The answer was that I, uh, had. the stars in my eyes that, that.

I just, I was. not fully understanding of. rail politic. That you're a liberal. Well, I'm not a liberal at all. And I find that disgusting. I find it disgusting. I don't want my government to. be involved in any way in. heroin trafficking. No, nor do I. And I also don't know why Russia's. our enemy, but big picture. But even if there was a good reason. to have Russia as an enemy, I still. wouldn't be for flooding their. cities with heroin. Right after the Russians. invaded Ukraine, I was.

one of seven independent. journalists who were invited to. lunch with the Russian ambassador in. Washington. And what he wanted was our. ideas on how the. U.S. And Russia could continue to. cooperate diplomatically even during. a time of war. And I was actually. proud of what I said. I went prepared and I. said. The U S and Russia have identical. interests in counterterrorism,

counter proliferation, and. counter-narcotics. We should never stop cooperating on. those three issues. And, um, and I said, and you know. what? There's a fourth thing I. said your excellency, when you. arrest an American, a. female American basketball player. and give her a draconian tenure. sentence for having a little bit of. weed oil, it's a bad. look. That was the only time he got. angry. And he said, do you have. any idea how many Russians are in. American prisons?

1500. I know that it's 1500 because I. have to send my staff out to visit. them. So if you want to talk about. not arresting people, talk to your. own government about it. Well, frankly, I would see that as. an opportunity. That's yet another thing on which. we should be engaged with the. Russian government and we're not, and it doesn't matter who's in the. White House, whether it's a Democrat. or a Republican. We just have this idea that. the Russians are bad, bad, bad, and. we shouldn't be cooperating with. them. I'll tell you another thing.

My, um, my former wife was. also a senior CIA officer. And as, as recently. as like 2017, she said to me, the Russians are. the gravest threat that. the United States has ever faced. And I'm like, what, what newspapers. are you reading? Because I know these people. And they want to work with us. They're not going to roll over for. us, but they want to be engaged. diplomatically. And we just won't do it. The greatest threat in. what way? In what way.

I would be far more worried about. the Chinese. Yeah. Than about the Russians. I'm far more worry about the Mexicans. I mean. And the Mexica. I'll tell you another thing too. You know, I actually. left the democratic party years ago. because I thought that it moved too. far to the right. Uh, the truth is that the. ideological spectrum is not a. straight line from left to right. It's a circle. And there are a lot of issues on. which the right and the left can, can meet and agree. Yes. That's where I am. I'm at the point where the circle. meets. So some of my friends,

some of, my former friends won't. speak to me because they say I'm far. too conservative that I've gone over. to the MAGA and they just don't. want to be friends anymore. And that's fine. I don't care. Cause then they, they weren't real. friends anyway, but, but. the issue is. I agreed with Donald Trump's policy. about building the wall. I lost a lot of friends because. of that. And I said, you know, you. have to look at it this way. I read the Greek press every single. day. I'm a recently, relatively recently, a dual US.

Greek citizen now. And Turkey takes something. like a billion and a half euros. every year to hold. Economic refugees in camps in, uh, in Turkey until they. can be processed and resettled in. places like Germany and Sweden and. France, et cetera. But what the Turks really do is they. put them on little boats and they. send them to Greece in the middle of. the night, the purpose being. to crash the Greek economy, to. destroy Greece. So what the Greeks did is they.

built a wall and. all of a sudden nobody can cross. the border where the wall is so. the Greeks now focus on the. and have the Coast Guard intercept. these, these boats that are coming. in almost every night. The wall worked. Yes, our, our. border with Mexico is long. Much of the land is just desolate. It's desert, it's wasteland, but. the wall works. Of course. That's why Israel has them. As the protector of your home, you. know the dilemma. You want to be.

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You don't hear any, where you don't see a mobilization. of men and money to. fight the drug cartels who. are responsible objectively for. so many more deaths in our. country. You're exactly right. So does anyone ever bring that up. and say, wait a second, we have. a hundred thousand people dying a. year because of these? But on the contrary, the. CIA used to. be called the counter-narcotics. center. Now it's called the crime. and narcotics center, and that. is the graveyard where.

people's careers go to die. Yeah, the CIA doesn't care. about stopping the flow. of drugs. They just don't care. You know, this, this wonderful show. on Netflix, Narcos. So in seasons one and two, just as the DEA is going to go in. and grab Pablo Escobar or. grab the gentleman of Cali. The CIA station chief comes in and. just screws the whole thing up. That's in that show because that's. what happens in real life. The CIA at the time cared only.

about communism. And stopping communism. And if the drug cartels were going. to tell the CIA where the. communists were hiding, then the CIA was a okay with the. drug cartels and that. attitude has really never changed. Why do you think that is? It doesn't make any sense. It's old think Tucker. It's all think where instead of. saying our job is to. disrupt any threat to the United. States, that's what I thought the. job was. Their view is. our job is to disrupt.

any Islamist, communist, fascist, whatever foreign official. challenge to the United States, whether it's governmental or it's an. organized terrorist group. They're just not thinking about the. cartel. So it sounds like they're doing what. all organizations do ultimately, which is to protect themselves. Yes, it's all about kingdom. building. I will say, I wrote a piece, I. don't even remember for whom, when. president Trump first.

declared, um, that. the drug cartels would be. reclassified as foreign terrorist. groups. And everybody was laughing and. making fun and how silly. this was. I said, no, no no, you're. underestimating him. He knows exactly what he's doing. It's not, he's not doing this for. the PR of, of. naming. The cartels as terrorist. groups. He's doing it because. legally it frees up, um, it freest up some. agency's abilities to act.

unilaterally against the. cartel's and it freaks up a great. deal of money to be used. by CIA, NSA, DOD against the Cartel. So I said, this is a big deal. This is not window dressing. Did it have any effect? I think not yet. Yeah. Not yet. Frankly, the army of people that we put. against terrorism. after 9-11 is. what we need to do against drugs.

It's hard to think that that could. happen now, considering that all. resources of government, certainly. all attention in government is. focused on this Iran. I think, I think that's the most. important point. Yes, I agree. There's just no bandwidth for. anything and. the demands of a war, especially one that you're losing, which we are by, you know, any real measurement, they're so. overwhelming. Like you just, there's no. time. To think about anything else, correct? You know, in the 91. Gulf War and in.

03, the State Department initiated. this policy called burden. sharing. Really what it is was a nice way of. saying, we want all of our allies to. pay for this, but. it worked. The Kuwaitis in 1990, the year that they were invaded by. Iraq, for the very first time in. their history, they made more. from their investments than they. made from oil. So they had this bottomless pit of. money. They paid for most of. the liberation of their own country, but the Europeans also paid.

And so it ended up not costing us. anything. We went down the burden sharing road. again in 2003, and a lot of it came out of our own. pockets, but our European. and Gulf allies also paid for it. This time nobody was consulted. And so this is all coming from our. own pockets. And I think that's unsustainable. over the long term. To the beginning of it the. president said well. two things one that we destroyed. Iran's nuclear program in June And.

but you're saying that they. reiterated it that there was no. nuclear program. There was no nuclear program. They had partially enriched. uranium, certainly, which. under the NPT, they're allowed to. do. It's subject to United. Nations inspection. Yeah. They were not in violation. We're not in violation. But there was no nuclear program in. it. No nuclear weapons program. So nuclear weapons program, right. So we destroyed the. nuclear weapons program, which. doesn't exist. But then in. February, we were told again that. the nuclear weapon's program is.

absolutely real, that the threat is. imminent. People go on television, on Fox. News, and say Iran. can lob an ICBM into Miami and. obliterate the United States. You know, I'm glad that you brought. that up too, because that is also. not true. And a lot of people, a lot. people are saying it. The Iranians did something recently. that was, that was. interesting in. that they took, they took two of their medium range. missiles, they stripped them. down to the point where it was just. the missile and the engine, and.

that was it. There was nothing. inside of them just to see how. much distance they could get. And they made it almost. to Diego Garcia, which is. far. So if you. instead point them toward Europe, yes, without anything inside. these, these missiles, they. could reach Western Europe. That's not a delivery system. That's just smoke and mirrors. They can only go that far if they're. completely empty. If you weigh them down with.

explosives or God forbid with, you know, nuclear material, even if it's just to make a dirty. bomb, they can't get that far. They could get to Cyprus. They could get certainly to Israel. and easily to the, the Arab golf countries, but there was no threat to the. United States. So the. IC, the American Intel community, those 18 agencies you referred to, did anybody in those agencies. say to the president, this is a. major threat, the nuclear program in.

Iran? The people that I still talk to at. the agency say specifically no. No. So that information, that lie. came from Israel. Yes. Right. Why would a president. believe a foreign intel. agency before his own? I don't know, that's really the. $64,000 question. You recall in the first term. when President Trump. met with Vladimir. Putin, he did not take his. intelligence people into the meeting.

with him. Putin took his intelligence people. into the meet with him, because the. president said he trusted the. other side's intelligence people. more than he trusted his own. And I get it. I get that he believes that. he was under direct threat from. You know, the deep state and the. John Brennan's of the world. I understand that, but, um, I'm surprised that that. feeling, that belief has held. over all this way into. the second term where you would.

believe. The Israeli information before you. would, believe your own people's. information, especially when you. know that the Israelis have a bested. interest in you doing their dirty. work for them. What about General Dan Cain, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of. Staff? So this is someone who I. think the President, I know the. President likes, certainly speaks. well of, he. would be informed on this, right? The Chairman has. a pretty clear readout on what the. intelligence is, right. Yes. I'm glad you brought him up. Um, I wanted to bring him up too.

We have some mutual friends and. not only have I never heard. a single negative. ever about general Cain. I hear only the most superlative. things that he is the. best chairman of. the joint chiefs of staff that the. country could hope for right now. But we also hear these leaks. into the political press. in Washington that He has argued. Against this war from the very.

beginning. It was my own experience. I don't believe that's true. I, I hope that. I'm right. I hope that I am right. It was, my experience at the CIA. that the joint chiefs were the last. ones to go to war. Yep. They were the ones that always. argued until the bitter end, not to attack Iraq in. 2003, because. there was no exit strategy. I think that's the problem today. There's no exit strategy. It's easy to invade a country, it's easy to overthrow a government.

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president gave an order to shoot. that plane down, because, understandably, by the way, believed. it was headed into Washington, which. I think it was. Yes. Four American fighter jets were. scrambled from DC, chased that plane and the. word story was, their explanation. was we didn't get there in time. and the plane was brought down. instead by Todd Beamer and the other. passengers, famously. Of those four fighter jets, of the pilots of those four. fighters, they were National Guard. pilots, two became generals.

Wow. And one of them is Dan Cain. I did not know that. Yeah, it's not widely known, but. it's a fact. What are the odds of that? Not good. I don't know anything beyond what I. just said, but I just think that's. such an interesting fact. So, okay, let's say you're the... And I've never heard a bad word. about General Kaine, other. than he did not take. a strong position on the. Iran war before it started.

I'd be very disappointed in that. I believe that's a fact. There's a lot of backfilling going. on through leaking, but when it. came down to it, General Cain did. not say this is a bad idea. He did not that. In fact, he said, it's not my job to. say things like that. My question to you is, is it his job. to see things like? Like if you're him, if you are. a senior briefer, if you John. Radcliffe at CIA, or any. of the people who advised the. president on foreign policy. questions, wars. What's your view of what they should. say to him? If you think this is.

terrible idea, should you say that? At the CIA that's, that's. a, uh, an easy one to answer. The CIA is not supposed to be a. policy organization. It's supposed to policy support. organization. So the CIA director. should never take a position on. things like that. They do obviously, but they're. not supposed. When George W. Bush was president in his second. term, he changed the structure of. the PDB. The president's daily brief. It used to be for most. of the articles, it would be a. paragraph of fact and a paragraph.

of analysis. He ordered a third paragraph to. be added policy. recommendation, and. it was like setting the building on. fire. Nobody wanted to be. responsible for telling the. president of the United States what. he should do about a policy. That's just not what the CIA was. created for behind. closed doors. Of course, they're going to offer. advice. When I was there, the joint chiefs. Almost always deferred to the. secretary of defense, but they were. also almost always.

of one mind. When we attacked Iraq in. 2003, there was a very significant. split where it was the office of. the vice president, the office, of. the secretary, of defense and the. NSC that were the pro-war. faction and the anti-war. faction, the political people, crazy as it sounds. Well, maybe not C.I.A. State Department. And Joint Chiefs that were opposed. to the war in Iran. I'm not surprised at all. I'm surprised at. I will never defend the. CIA, however,

like Mossad, they're. a stakeholder in the country. Yeah. And they probably shouldn't. be, but they are. Yeah, right. And so sometimes the voices of. restraint come from the people with. the, you know, the long-term. interest in the state. I think that's right. Right? Yes. So yeah, that does not surprise. I'm not complimenting CIA. No, no. I know in the chat I'm going to be. accused of being a shill for the. CIA, which I'm. I mean, when the. Israelis bombed Doha. On September 10th, the day before,

September 9th, I guess the day, before Charlie Kirk was murdered. That was like, it was a lunatic. thing to do, to bomb, you. know, one of our closest allies in. the world. Yeah, it's insane. And Mossad did not participate in. that because they thought it was. reckless. Which it was. Oh, it bonkers. But so Mossad was a voice of. restraint in Israel, which is like. hard to get your head around, but. does that-. surprise you? No, because you. always, always have to consider the. potential for blowback. Unintended, unintended consequences,

responses that you haven't fully. thought through. Blowback is a problem. So what kind of blowback is the. United States looking at now that. we've killed the. religious leader of this country and. his family? Yeah. You know, we haven't had a problem. with Shiite terrorism in the United. States during my lifetime or ever. No. Are we going to have one now? I think not, only because it's. always been so hard for.

Iranians or Iranian. proxies to get visas to come to the. United States. So you know, these, these rumors, I. think they came from the FBI right. after the conflict began that. there's a cell in Honolulu, there's the cell in Detroit. No, there aren't. If there were, you'd just grab them. instead of just... Why are you telling me about cells? Shouldn't you be arresting the cells. if you're planning terror? Exactly. I remember when I was still. with the CIA driving down first. Avenue in New York and with two.

FBI agents, one of them said, you see that storefront? That's the headquarters of. Hezbollah's cell in New york. And I said, well, why don't you do. something about it? They're a terrorist group. What did he say? Taken me on a tour for, just go. kick the door down and grab them. If it's a, the headquarters of. Hezeballah's terrorist cell. Oh, they just kept driving. Like I didn't understand. Yeah. But I think the, um, I think that the, that the. attack on Iran has galvanized the.

Iranian public. The government was not a house of. cards. We are not going to be seen as. liberators. We're going to seen as. attackers and possibly occupiers. And I think, that's. the most immediate challenge we're. going to face. So that, I guess, seems obvious. now, seven weeks in. But at the time, my impression is the president. really believed that if you kill the. Ayatollah, the whole country. collapses. But coming back to Hillary Clinton, the reason why it didn't is that.

it's not actually a theocracy, it's a military dictatorship. Oh, it's actually one of the most. liberal countries in the entire. region. You know what, it is, I think you. and I are the only ones who haven't. been... We're the only people who know that. Yes. And we haven't to Iran. So many of my friends have been. to Iran relatively recently before. the hostilities began. And they, they posted videos. on YouTube of just walking down. the street in Tehran and the. restaurants are open and the cafes. and there's music and people. laughing and having late dinners.

and it's just normal life. Yeah. No, I remember my father working. in Iran, going back to Iran. and telling me. now it's like, Tehran. specifically, I mean, I think it's a. huge country, but Tehron, yeah, there's tons of liberals. Yeah. One of the most. amazing pictures, I think that's one. of the reasons Trump was convinced. that the regime would fall, right? Because there were lots. of, you know,

secular liberals in Tehrun. Yes. But one of the most amazing. pictures I think I've ever seen was. a picture of a very butch looking. lesbian type woman with a nose ring. standing in Tehran, standing at an intersection, waving a photograph of the Ayatollah. after he was killed. And the point is, this is exactly. the person who opposed him while. he was still alive. But now that we've killed him, you. got all the, you know, the. lesbians of Tehron are all of a. sudden for the Ayutthala. I think that's exactly right.

We've forced them together. We really have. So look at it this way. If, if I don't like whoever. happens to be in the, uh, in the White House and I go to. demonstrations and my fist is in the. air and I don't like this person's. policy and then the Russians attack, I'm going to pick up a gun and I'm. going to fight the Russians. Oh, for sure. No matter who attacks, no matter. who. Right, but human nature gets. suspended for adversaries because. they're not human beings. So they're gonna behave in ways that.

we would recognize. They're totally irrational. It's a suicide cult or whatever. they're telling you on Fox News. But the point is. that you will suspend. all rational analysis. because you can't predict people. like that. Other than they want to kill you're. right and when you're the only. analysis that you're getting or. paying attention to is from either. the israelis or the mek. the mujahideen a hulk which is. really no more than a quasi. communist cult you.

know then you can't rely on the. information Okay, so what? Let's explain the MEK. Oh, sure. There are big allies in. Iran. Yeah, which just sends chills. up my spine. Okay. So who are they? So they were founded by a husband. and wife team, uh, back in the sixties. And in the seventies, they were. based in Iraq, uh North Eastern Iraq, and they. would launch these cross-border. attacks into Iran, deep into Iran. Like in Tehran terrorist attacks, they They, uh,

attempted to murder the American. ambassador. They attempted to a three star. general who was the, the senior, most American military official in. Iran, they've carried out. anti-American terrorist attacks over. the course of decades, anti-american, anti American. And then they switched sides. When, when Saddam. Hussein pushed them out of. Iraq, they relocated. mostly to Paris. Now, the husband disappeared.

It's always Paris. Always Paris. That's where the. Ayatollah Khomeini lived. Yeah, for years, and that's where the Greek, what became the Greek terrorist. groups, 17 November and pocketed. a revolutionary struggle. They started in Paris. That's where Paul Potts started. Paul Potts studied in Paris, and Karl Marx's daughter married. Paul the Farg, the father. of French communism. So yeah, Paris is kind of. a kind of screwed up place. It can be. Anyway, Um, Miriam Rajavi's husband vanished,

never to be seen again. The conventional wisdom is that she. killed him or had him killed, and. she took over the MEK. So in 2009, when Barack Obama is elected. president, Hillary Clinton becomes, becomes a, God forbid, becomes. secretary of state. Um, the MEk hires. some of the most high powered. lobbyists in Washington to. get them off the terrorism list.

And they engaged with. both Democrats and Republicans. I mean, everybody from, from. Howard Dean to Rudy Giuliani. Howard Dean was lobbying. For MEK? Oh yeah, and Rudy Giuliani. That's pathetic. You should see the pictures of them. together, it's sickening at. these big banquets in Washington to. raise money for the M.K. But these are. the people who tried to kill the US. ambassador. But they're the good guys now. So the weather is warming, which. means grilling is here, and you're probably already thinking.

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friend. That's exactly what the argument is. And so they got themselves off the. terrorism list. They pay millions of dollars. to DC lobbyists, senior political figures, former. political figures and, uh, and now can accept American. weapons. Well, the MEK. doesn't have the wherewithal. to fight the Iranian government. It's, it's just all about arming. themselves. What do they believe?

They're, they're ardently communist. What and we're support and Howard. Dean and Rudy Giuliani were lobbying. for them. Because remember, the Iranian regime is this. theocratic terrorist cabal, and we have to overthrow them to. make the Middle East safe. It's insane. I know very little about. MEK other than. what you've said, but I do know that they are feared. Yes. And I know that- They're murderous.

Yes, and it's suspected, because I've heard this from intel. people, that they're used. basically as assassins. for hire. Well, the conventional wisdom is. that the Israelis use the MEK. regularly to carry out these. assassinations we've seen over the. years in Tehran. Yeah. And I have heard, I don't know if it's true, uh, in. the United States. So that was, yeah. And I heard that from someone who's. pretty informed. Doesn't mean it's.

Of course, it's hard to know what is. true now, but, but the. MEK is get taking money. from Israel. Lots of money. And I think most people who pay. attention think the MEK is like. reasonable pro-America group. Right. You know, from the very. beginning, when they were. rehabilitated in 2009, I just started shaking my head. Like, what are we doing? What are these Obama people. thinking? But it turned out it wasn't just the. Obama people. The MEK, first of all, had the.

money to hire all these multimillion. dollar lobbyists and they were smart. in that they did it across the. political spectrum Democrats from. rich Iranian exiles. Who are willing to hold their nose. over the, you know, personal. ideology of the organization and. just say, well, if you're going to. kill, you know, ayatollahs and. hojatollas slams, then okay, I'll. write you a check. And the Israelis, of course, see. them as useful. Yes.

That's quite amazing. What about the Shah's son, who we've also been trained to think. of as a good guy? Yeah. As a Pahlavi. He is. Most definitely not. A good guy. So who is he? So he's the son of the Shah who was. deposed famously in 1979. Correct. And, and when his father. was deposed, he was, he was. only what, 19 years old, 18, 19 years old. So he came to the United States with. his family. Um, the Shah, the Shaw. got sick almost as soon as he came. to the United States.

He developed cancer. Uh, he was treated in, uh, I think. it was in Houston. Uh the Iranian government. under the Ayatollahs objected. so vociferously that they raided the. American embassy and took our. diplomats hostage, held them for 444. days. We told the shot I go get cancer. treatment somewhere else. That's right. He went to the Bahamas. for a while, then to Panama, and. then ended up finally settling in. Cairo and he died in CaiRO. Well, his family stayed here in the. United States, both in Northern. Virginia. Well, Reza Pallavi, the.

crown prince in Northern Virginia, the mother in North Carolina and. Reza's younger brother in Boston. Reza Palavi is not. equipped to lead anything. He is a playboy. He had an affair with his brother's. wife, his brother. Actually, actually his brother. turned to drugs and. committed suicide. His own wife, Reza Pahlavi's. wife is having a very public.

affair right now with her personal. trainer. The, the Parisian press is just. crazy over it and they, they have pictures. They publish pictures of the two of. them together all the time. It's humiliating in anybody's. culture. Let alone in Iranian culture, which. is supposed to be very pious and. very Muslim. So on top of that, he has. said repeatedly, most recently on. the Patrick bet David podcast that. now he doesn't think he wants. to go back to Iran, he's. made a life here.

He's very wealthy. His kids are Americans. There's really no reason to go back. to Iran. Okay. So why are we talking about you then. in the first. Well, he was all over Mar-a-Lago. and the White House. I'm the guy, I'm the guy. And then, well, maybe I'm not the. guy I'm kind of afraid. So what has he done for the last 47. years? Nothing. You see him every once in a while at. cultural events. You see every once, twice a year Iranian. singers will come to Washington. or there will be a Farsi.

language play a performance. or something and he'll go to those. things. But he's just. not a player in Washington. Even in Iranian exile. circles, he's just not a player. So why were we talking about him. nonstop all summer? Because the Israelis like him very. much. Remember his father opened. diplomatic relations with Israel. There was an Israeli embassy in. Tehran. Oh yeah. And there was an Iranian embassy in. Jerusalem. And so I think there.

are a lot of people who pine for. those days and think that, well, in. a perfect world, if Reza. Pahlavi were Reza Shah. Then Israel and Iran would be. friends and all the. Iranian people would fall into line. and we could all live happily ever. after. But is there any indication. that the people of. Iran think that their view matters? Obviously, it doesn't, but let's. just say it did, that they want to exchange. a theocracy for a monarchy?

Not a chance. The only, the only place where he. has solid support is. in the Iranian, now the Iranian American community. in Southern California. Yeah. And Beverly Hills. Yeah. The only zip code in LA to go. for Trump. That's right. In fact, I think the mayor of. Beverly Hills is Iranian. Yeah, and by the way, some of the. most entertaining people in the. world, some the warmest people in. the world are. the Persian Jews of. Southern California. Very intense, extremely intense.

And very successful. Super successful, but I've never had. a bad experience of them, I've. always really liked them. Agreed. But a lot. Yeah, no, they're great. But this is yet another example. of an exile community leveraging the. power of the US economy and. military for its own parochial ends. Like. Just be grateful you're here. Like stop trying to get my. neighbors killed in another dumb. war. But no one can say that. No. No, you can't say that. There's political falling. So the, the Shaw's. son thing was like totally fake from.

the very beginning. Totally manufactured. Didn't we do this in Afghanistan? Boy, did we. Some guy ran a restaurant in. Baltimore was going to be like the. king of Afghanistan. Do you remember this? I meet Karzai's brother. He still has the restaurant in. Baltimore. It's quite good, but where. does the you, I mean in the, in. the face of like a hundred years. of failing to pull off these. schemes, why does no one. pause and say, we can't.

just install someone to run a. foreign country. We don't even speak. the language. We know nothing about. it. Because we don't understand. history. Again, one of my experiences at the. CIA is, and not just at. the CIA, John Kerry made the. same mistakes. We always think we're the smartest. people in the room that. we know better than everybody else. on what basis arrogance. It's just arrogance. Yeah. And, uh, and. we're not the smartest people in a.

room and we don t know history. I've told this story a million times. the night before we attacked. Iraq we we had the final. principles committee meeting. principles committee is normally. chaired by the president It includes. the vice president, the secretaries. of state and defense, the national. security advisor, the. chairman of the joint chiefs, the. vice chairman, and, um, in this case, the head of CENTCOM, and then a bunch of senior level. NSC people. And everybody brings a note taker. I was George Tenet's note takers. and he was the director of.

the CIA at the time. And, uh, for whatever reason, the. president didn't attend this. meeting. There was something else. going on. So the vice president. chaired the meeting. Wait, the president didn't attend. the final principles meeting. before the Iraq War? Right. But Dick Cheney did? And to. make a long story short, um, general Tommy Franks, who was the commander of central. command at the time gave his. briefing. We know our men are here.

and there and elements of this group. and that group and the third core. and the first core. And I'm like, okay, and I'm writing. it all down. And then he says, if all goes as. well, we're going to invade Iraq. the next morning. If all goes well, well, if we can be. in Tehran by August. And George discreetly turns off. his microphone. And then he turns to me. I'm sitting behind his right. shoulder and he says, did he. say Tehran or did he say. Baghdad? And I said, he said Tehron. And George says, have these people.

lost their minds? I got back to the office at the end. of the meeting and the deputy. director said to me, how'd the. principals committee meeting go? And I say, did you know we were. going to attack Iran? And he said, are they still talking. about that? We're not going to talk Iran. That's just a pipe dream that these. people at the White House have. And I said, do they know nothing. about history? And he said, no, they know, nothing about history as we were. walking out of that meeting. One of the NSC people, a guy who I.

disrespected, I think the most. of, of my. colleagues at the NSV, he said giddily As we. were standing up to walk out of the. meeting, he said, when we cross that. border tomorrow, they're going to. throw flowers at us. And I thought, buddy, have you never. read a history book? They're not going to see us as, as. liberators. They're going see us, as invaders. and occupiers. And, you know, we thought, well, not. we, so many of my contemporaries.

thought, well, we're going to move. into Southern Iraq and that's the. Shia part. And they've been just. so brutalized by Saddam Hussein. They're going, they're going greet. us as liberators. We're going arm them and we're gonna. go together to Baghdad. and liberate Baghdad. It's like, no, first of all, we. scared the hell out of them when we. crossed the border. There was this very tense. standoff where we, we moved into. Najaf, which is one of the holiest. sites in all of Shia Islam. And, um, there.

was a huge group of people and. several ran inside one. of the mosques to take refuge. And we're like, no, no. No, we don't mean you any harm. We came to liberate you. And they were like, get out of our. city. And so finally what the, the military guys did is they, they set down their weapons. And they asked to see the. tribal leaders. And so they met with the tribal. leaders inside the mosque and said, we came here to liberate you.

And the tribal leader said, we don't. want your liberation. If you're here to fight Saddam, go. fight Sadam, leave us out of. it. And so that's why we didn't have. support in the South. Why should we expect anything. different in Iran? No. No, and an invading army inevitably. mistreats civilians. I saw it in Iraq. I don't think any, they don't mean. it. Most American soldiers are. nice guys, but there's just no. way around it because they're under. threat or the perception of.

threat. And so they have to get, you know, rough. They have to stick rifles in. people's faces all the time. And then it's just a slippery. Slope from there. Yeah, even if they don't shoot. anybody, it's just like engenders. hatred and resentment. Why wouldn't it? If someone did that to you. That's right. I saw, I remember. seeing this at a gas station in. Nazaria where they, you know, whatever, humiliate a man in front. of his son. And I don't think there was an. option. You know, everyone's afraid. of getting killed. So they get, they have to act that. way. But downstream from that, where's.

that son now? Right. 23 years later. How anti-American is he now? Yeah, so yeah, by. definition, it's counterproductive. So just to your point. about the president believing that. Iran was the house of cards, it just. needed one swift push to. collapse. Where did he get that idea? He could only have gotten that. idea from Benjamin Netanyahu. That's it because the. CIA analysis has been consistent. over the course of decades.

We can't just fire a couple of. rockets and take down a government. in a country of 93 million people. That's just not the way real life. works. They're going to rally around their. leadership because we're outsiders. Um, and just, you. make the point about history, but I. mean, I think you could, Saudi. is probably in, uh, competition, but I mean of all the. countries in that part of the world, Iran is the most durable.

I mean it's a real. It's a real country with a. proud history, stretching back millennia. Yes. I have a lot of Iranian American. friends, some quite. close, and they. never stopped talking about the. history to the point where I have to. say, please, can we please talk. about something other than, you. know, Cyrus the queer, please. and Xerxes and I, I just can't anymore. I need a break. But that's how proud they are of.

their-. You don't see that with, say, Kuwaitis. No, no. Who, you know, God bless them, I. love Kuwaiti. Oh, me too, I'm not. against Kuwait. But they don't have. a history. No, right. So Iran, of all the countries, maybe in the world, that would be high on the list of. ones that's pretty hard to. beat. I couldn't agree more. Okay. So even I know that and. the country's the same size as. Western Europe. Yeah. It's not like you can just. launch a couple of pinprick strikes. and the whole thing falls apart. It's the size of Western Europe,

93 million people. with a forbidding topography. on top of it. So yeah, not easy. We go in on February 28th. and Iran does not, strictly speaking, control the. strait at the. outlet of the Persian Gulf. There's unimpeded shipping. The six Gulf states are thriving. Iraq also in the Persian gulf is. kind of, is pretty peaceful for. Iraq, you know, or whatever.

It's fine. We're not reading about. it every day. Things are fine. Now they're not fined at all, how are they restored to fined? Only through diplomacy, that's it. Whether we like it or not, especially whether the Israelis like. it or not we are going to have to. sit across the table from these. people and come up with an. agreement. It's going to be an. agreement that we are not going to. be 100% happy with, but. that's what diplomacy is all about.

Not happy with you mean. Iran will be more. powerful at the end of this than. they were at the outset? Oh, I think that's an inevitability. We have forced the Iranians into. the embrace of the Chinese and the. Russians and the Indians. And we're going to get to the point. where we're. just not going to be able to stand. up against that. kind of an Alliance and. make meaningful gains. Just think about, think about this. Iran is a BRICS country, right? Brazil, Russia, India,

China, plus, you know, South Africa and Argentina and Iran. and a couple of others. South Korea, eventually. using the European. Union as their model, they're going. to come up with a unified currency. It's probably 20 or 30 years down. the road, but it's going to happen. one of these days. That will be the end of. American hegemony in the. region because as. things stand now, all oil transactions in the world, almost all, are done.

in dollars, right? The famous petrodollar. Well, a year ago, Kuwait sold a. shipment of oil to China for Yuan. and the Indians, what a week ago, paid for a. shipment, uh, of oil. in Yuan. So we're already seeing the cracks. in the dam and then, and. then just blasting the place is. only going to make this. inevitability come sooner. I think it weakens us. I couldn't agree more. I think it's definitely the end. of something profound.

Sue, but what are our military. options at this point? I'm not sure that there are any. viable military options. I mean, God forbid. we should target the. civilian infrastructure. That's a war crime. It's actually very clear in. international law. You can't bomb. the civilian structure. You can bomb the electrical grid. or the water treatment plants. You can, we do, but. it's a work crime. You can do it. And so what are we going to do? Just keep blasting the IRGC?

Okay. Well, where's that gotten us? They're survivors! It hasn't led to the collapse of. the government. So when are we going to finally come. to the conclusion that what we're. doing is just simply not working. Maybe we can rest some. concessions from the Iranians. across the negotiating table. Maybe we could figure out how. to use their closeness with the. Chinese and the Russians to our. benefit. I'm not really sure how, but maybe we can get there, but.

we're going to have to let the. diplomats do what diplomats are paid. to do. I don't think we have any. left. No. I mean, all of these. negotiations have been run by. non-diplomats, realistically. I'm glad that you brought that up. I had made a mental note to raise. that and I forgot. We have almost no U S. ambassadors in the six GCC. countries, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Bahrain, Qatar, Oman, and the United. Arab Emirates. Most of them were relieved. of their duties a year ago and have. never been replaced, and.

so there is no Philip Habib to. go from country to country right. now. As there was in the 1980s. Why do we have new ambassadors in. our most important allies? I think the president concluded that. these ambassadors were. not fully bought into. his foreign policy. and he withdrew them. short of tour. They were all professional. diplomats, career diplomats. not political appointees. And the department just. never named. new ambassadors.

It almost seems like this is an. intentional effort to destroy. the United States by our own. government. It feels that way, doesn't it? Yes. Okay, so back, I just want to. ask one last question about how we. got here. So two or three weeks after. this war began, the head. of the National Counterterrorism. Center, Joe Kent, resigned in his. resignation letter. He said, I believe, he didn't say this in his letter. He said it in an interview with me. shortly after the next day. He said, I believe the.

The Butler assassination attempt, the other assassination attempt in. Florida, a couple of breaches of. Donald Trump's personal security. secret service detail, and Charlie Kirk's murder may all. have played a role in. convincing the president to go to. war with Iran. What do you think that means? I would not be at all surprised, you know what, let me, let me. preface this by saying I don't have. any inside information. But I would be surprised. if.

a person or multiple. people got into the president's ear. and said, this isn't a coincidence that there. were these three events, there were. three events because the Iranians. are behind it. They've got these cells, they're. around the United States. We can't identify them. We can catch them, but they're. gunning for you. And Charlie Kirk was, you know, uh, a practice. hit, or Charlie Kirk was. a message or whatever.

And I wouldn't be surprised if the. president would believe something. like that. If, if people he trusts. are telling him there's. a problem and the problem originates. in Iran, whether it's true or not. that he would respond to. that. I, a lot of people did tell him that. that's a fact. I can confirm it. People told him Iran is out to kill. you. The Butler assassination. attempt, the. Iran was behind it. People were saying that fact, but where that theory falls down. is with the Charlie Kirk.

assassination. So if you were, if you we're trying. to claim that the Iranians were. behind it and there were leads from. the national counterterrorism center. or the ODNI. That suggested foreign involvement, who knows if they go anywhere, you would follow up on those leads. You would have to follow up on those. lead. But they shut them down. Yes. And that's a fact. And, you know, it doesn't make you a. reckless conspiracy theorist. or evil to ask, what is that? Why wouldn't you follow up on those.

bleeds? You know, I, I'm one of these people that. believes that in almost all. cases, the simplest explanation is. probably the correct one, but when word. came out, thanks to Joe. Kent and his. brave actions. and revelations that. he was not permitted. to follow up on these leads. Well, call me a conspiracy theorist, but that's the only place I can go.

Well, what's the answer? There had to be some sort of a. What's the other answer? I mean, I want to find another. answer. I don't want to have any. thoughts like this. Charlie, of. course, was a good friend of mine. He's a good front of yours. But even if he wasn't, I just, I. live in this country. I don't But what, are there any good answers to that. question? No, there's literally no. reason why you wouldn't follow up. on a lead. Why would the president shut down. the investigation into Butler and to. his own attempted assassination?

I, I can't even fathom. a reason, especially because. this president has taken such a. strong stand against the deep state, right? If they're, I mean, we all agreed that there's a deep. state. You don't have to call it. that. You can call it the federal. bureaucracy or whatever you want to. call. Permanent Washington. Permanant Washington. The people who are going. to be here when you leave. Exactly right. So is somebody like the president. who has taken such a strong. stance against that deep state, you would think would be the first. person to want to run these.

allegations to ground. Of course, but also just out of. self-preservation. Why would the president. keep the leadership of. the Secret Service in place after. his own personal security was. breached repeatedly? That's a fact. I mean, none of this is speculation. That's all true. What explains that? I worked with a guy in Athens. He was a contractor. He had been the, he had been a long. time, um, secret service.

agent and was. the. Creator, the founder of the secret. services intelligence division. He was, he started under Eisenhower. He was in Dallas with Kennedy. And finally he was successful. in, in creating this. intelligence division to work with. the CIA and the FBI to. head off threats to the president. He starts getting these letters at. the White House from Sarah Jane. Moore of San Francisco, California. And she's saying things like, you. know, ask not for whom the bell.

tolls, it tolls for thee. Well, he flies out to San Francisco. and he knocks on her apartment door. And she answers, he's got his badge, I'm with the Secret Service. He said, Sarah Jane, you. keep threatening the president in. these letters. What's going on with this? And he told me, she said, um, no, I didn't mean it. My social security check was late. and I got mad. And so I wrote to the president and. I threatened him, but I, I didn't. really mean to threaten him. And he said, you're not going to try. to kill a president, are you?

And she said no, i'm not going kill. the president. And two weeks later, the president. goes to San Francisco and she's. there bang, bang,bang, bang bang, trying to kill the President. Heads rolled, his being the first, he was fired. From the secret service, and then. they cleaned out the entire. leadership of the secret service. That's what normal people do. Yeah. So here we've got two. legitimate attempts to. murder the president of the United. States or the president elect or the.

President, the former president, whatever he happened to be when. these attacks took place. And it's the same people, the same people who let the bad guys. get close enough to him to take. a shot and hit him in the ear. So given that we both have conceded. we don't know the answer to this. question, tell me as someone. who spent a lot of his life abroad. working for the U.S. Government as a CIA officer, assessing the workings of other. governments and. drawing rational conclusions. So let's say the.

facts as we just have agreed. are real, which they are, applied to pick a country, Bahrain, where you lived for years, what would you conclude? The head of state of Bahrain has. had a couple documented. assassination attempts against him. and possibly others that have. never been written. about. That's right. And I think that is true. Yes. And doesn't investigate them. They come down with an iron f-.

Oh, of course, they don't plan. Bahrain, or most other countries. But if you found out that the head. of state, the emir of country X, was not investigating an. assassination attempt against. himself, what would you conclude? That he's weak, that he is weak and either. he's afraid of what he's going to. stir up or. he's just such a weak leader that. it hasn't occurred to him to follow. through on this. Yeah, but it's an attempt on his. life. It's attempt on his life,

yeah. He got shot in the ear. Like I say, I don't think a single. American would have been surprised. or unsupportive. if he had come down with an iron. fist. First of all Everybody in. Butler that day in the. secret service and everybody in the. secret service leadership should. have had their badges confiscated. and walked to the door. You're fired and you're not working. in government again. You allow an assassin, a child. to get onto the roof. of a building and say, Oh, I'm my.

walkie talkie. Oh, there's a guy on. the roof over there with a high. powered rifle and he's pointing it. at the president. Uh, what should I. do? Do I have authorization to shoot? What is that? I can't even imagine somebody. behaving in that way. Everybody should have lost his or. her job. And instead, literally nobody. lost their job. So that's so. weird because normally there's like. a one-to-one between someone's. obvious interest in his actions.

It's like, that's a threat to me. I'm not putting up with it, but here. you have a case where it's. a clear threat to him, but he's. absolutely putting up with it you're. ascribing that to weakness. Like he's just weak, just like he's got too much else to. deal with. I just can't imagine, and I don't. think he's a weak man. I think he has proven time and time. again that he's not. So then, like, what are we looking. at? Looking at. But we're missing something. here, yeah. There's something deeper in the. system that's not permitting him. to go forward, or that's not. permiting the government, the rest.

of the government to conduct an. appropriate investigation. What are historians going to say. about this 20, 30, 50 years from. now? They're going to say at very least. there's a mystery at the center of. it, at the center of like. global events. And now that we've. embarked on this war against the. council of the entire. U S government, like you. just said, there's no one in the U S. government who was for this that we. know of anyway. And he does it anyway, in the. wake of those.

acts of violence. Joe Kent says there's the. connection. I have a, he's not really. a friend so much. He's a friendly acquaintance who. spent 30 plus years at MI6, the British foreign intelligence. service. I spoke with him recently. and he said, you know, you. Americans, you're a mystery to us. now. We thought we knew you until. 9-11, and then you went out and just. started killing everybody. And we thought, well, the Americans. were traumatized.

This is gonna run its course. And then it seemed to run its. courses. And then you invade Iran and. you don't consult with us. You don't ask for our help. And then, you blame us when. things start turning against you. Like, why aren't the British helping. us? Well, you haven't asked for any. help and you didn't tell us what you. were going to do in advance. And he said, what are we supposed to. think? The only conclusion that we can draw. is that you're not really the great. friends that we thought you were. We hate. So my read on it, having watched us all pretty.

carefully over a long time, is that. we have just. taken Israeli priorities and. made them our own. And Israeli priorities would include. destabilizing Iran, turning it into a chaotic. mass civil. and destroying Europe. The Israelis hate Europe. Yeah. And the Israelis thrive on. chaos. They chaos in Iraq was good for. Israel. Chaos in Iran is good for. Israel chaos in Libya, in Syria. is good for Israel, yeah. It's not good for us, but it's.

good for them. When you were serving in government, who were the allies we. were closest to? Oh, we were joined at the hip with. the Brits. Yep. I mean, we kind of, we very close to the Israelis, but. we, we tried to keep the. Israelis at arm's length. They would constantly make demands. that we would deny, but we were still close, but we were really closest to. the Britz, to the Australians,

to a very slightly lesser. extent, the New Zealanders and the. Canadians. Right. But the English-speaking countries. Yeah, without a doubt. And that's not true anymore. No, not really. The Canadians, we're the Canadians. and the United States have an. actively hostile relationship. I mean, we still sit together and. share information on stuff, but we. genuinely don't like each other. Okay, so if you were running. the United States for its own. benefit, of course you would be. closest to the countries that share. the language, the culture, the religion,

and certainly the. border, the longest border is. Canada. That's exactly right. But all of those countries are hated. by Israel for reasons that are. ancient and hard. to understand. And now we hate all those countries. So it does seem like we've assumed. Israel's priority. It really does. Tucker, when I was serving in. Bahrain from 1994 to 96, I was the economic officer. And I would have to go over to the. ministry of foreign affairs to see. the director of economic affairs. every three, four weeks.

I would, I would save up a bunch of. demarches or what are called white. papers and just go over and say, your excellency, the United States. of America officially requests. your government's vote in. the elections for the international. telecommunications organization, you know, next month. And you'd say... Done. And I say, okay. And I'd go back and write, you know, cables back to state. One of them was your excellency. I said, we're involved in a dispute. with the government of Canada. Uh, we, we.

believe that clams are fish. and the Canadians classify. clams as shellfish, but the definition of a shellfish is. that it can't move more than I think. it was 10 feet a day and. clams move like 12 feet a. day. And so we're in this dispute. It's going to the United Nations. We would like Bahrain support. And then I'd go out with a Canadian. diplomat and I'd say, what are we. going to do about this shellfish. situation? And we would laugh and. have lunch and have a beer and go. back to our embassies. Now we do, we disagree on.

basic fundamentals. of foreign policy. We're all still in agreement on. terrorism and proliferation. That's all great, but we. have in some cases, an. actively hostile relationship. With the Canadians, mostly with the Canadians, sometimes with the Brits to. the point where it's impacting the. relationship. Now, this, this MI six. officer, I mentioned a moment ago, he said, he said,

we still love you. We just don't like you very much. And I think that's really what it. comes down. What does it mean for U.S. National security and economic. interest going forward if. Canada becomes a South Asian country. run by the Chinese, which is. what it's becoming? That's a real thing. And I think it's going to pose a. challenge that we are willfully. unprepared for. So if you think that, by. the way, I just want to be clear, I'm. not blaming the Israelis for any of. this. No, no, no. U.S. Government officials who decided.

to sell out their country. That's right. Because I don't know who knows why. exactly. But anyway, they did. How do you disengage? How do get American. sovereignty back? How do you break the stranglehold. of the Israeli lobby on. the US government? But you know, just. like I do, that it wasn't. always like this. The AIPAC, the American Israel.

Public Affairs Committee, only. became a major. player in American politics. beginning around. 1970, when. President Nixon formally changed. US policy toward Israel to. guarantee the safety and security. of Israel. That changed things. What he should have done at the same. time. Was to force AIPAC to register as. a foreign agent, right? I mean, it clearly represents the. foreign policy of Israel. John F. Kennedy tried to do that.

John F Kennedy did try to do it. Yeah, it didn't work well for him. And I think President Johnson was. afraid to take them on and he. never did anything. Well, he was working with them. Look at the USS Liberty. The Israelis take the blame for. that. They're the ones who committed. the murders, but I. don't think Lyndon Johnson gets the. credit he deserves. Absolutely not. I agree with you. For punishing the surviving. crew of that. ship for talking about it. Yes. You know, I went back to the.

original press reporting. I wanted to do an episode of my own. podcast on the Liberty, just because. so many people still talk about it. We're talking about 19, what? 67. So I went to the back to original. reporting and the, the. press releases. coming out of the state department. and the defense department were. blistering. And then the president said, what. are you doing? Stop criticizing Israel. Well, they, yeah.

What do you think that was? Yeah, that was the Israel lobby. But why would Lyndon Johnson. have been such a slave? I think he was afraid. What do think the root of his fear. was? What was he afraid of? You know, there has been credible. reporting over the years that the. Israelis may have. had something to do with the Kennedy. assassination, may have had. advanced warning about the Kennedy. assassination and that they. either participated in it or allowed. it to happen or didn't warn the. United States that it was going to. happen because Kennedy not.

just refused to give them nuclear. technology, he actively stood in the. way of them acquiring nuclear. technology. Technology to create a bomb. Ben Green resigned over it. That's right. He was demanding inspections of the. Demona facility, the nuclear. facility in Israel. That's Right. Yeah, I don't know the answer. I can promise you everyone around. the world thinks that's true. Yeah. You don't go to a country. where people don't think that's. right, but I. don't know if it is true. But it's just interesting that. Lyndon Johnson was such a. slave that he.

attacked Americans for. talking about the murder of. Americans by a foreign power. Mm-hmm, that's like. And there was, the Israelis. clearly knew that it was. an American ship. It was flying the. American flag and it said USS. Liberty on the side of it. Yeah. And then they waited something. like 45 minutes after attacking. it. And then came back and attacked. it again. So there's no question. They tried to sink it. Yeah, exactly. And they said, Oh, no, we thought it. was from the Egyptian Navy.

Like, come on, you guys, come. one. You can come up with something. better than that. So how do you disentangle at. this point? So my impression is just as an. observer of government that the. Israeli government is like embedded. within the U.S. Government at this. It seems that way to me, yes. So it's probably not a simple. thing. No, I think it's very, very. difficult. I think that APAC really does have. to register as a, as a foreign. agent. It really does. Listen, if I had to register, as.

foreign agent, because the, the Abu Dhabi of chamber of. commerce hired me to write for. op-eds and I had to go to farah.gov. and register, then APAC should be. registered. So, but if the United States were. ever to take a more, you know, arm's length posture. toward Israel, what do you think the. consequences would be? I honestly don't think there would. be any consequences. Israel is an important and valuable. ally. So are a lot of other countries.

And I just don't the Israelis should. be treated any differently than, than the Brits or the French or the. Greeks or, you know, anybody else. Why do they get special treatment? I just don't understand. Well, it's more than that. We've sacrificed all of our other. relationships on their behalf. That's right. Yes. Right. So their priorities become our. priorities and all of a sudden they're. our only friend. And you can't tell me that's. accidental. That's true. They're literally our. only friends and they're not a. friend. They have a much longer term. view of these things than we do. They, they began to try to.

implement this policy in the, in the. sixties. And it finally came to fruition. It's prime minister after prime. minister, after prime ministry. cultivates, not just American. political figures, but, but wealthy. American Jews and says, look, you know, we've got a lot of. lobbying to do. We've got lot of PR to do, we're. going to need money to do this. And money's never been a problem. So back to the war, if there's a diplomatic resolution, which I think there would be. a common sense would suggest because.

the global economy hangs on this. question, there's gonna be a lot of. pressure at some point, even from. China to like, let's just get this. fixed. Getting it fixed leaves Iran. in a stronger position than. at the outset of the war. A much stronger- Without any. question. Can Israel live with that? I think that Israel is going to have. to live with it. You do. I do. They're going to to have live. with because the American. people do not support a. long-term conflict in Iran. The American people don't support.

boots on the ground. This is one of those areas we were. talking about an hour ago where the. left and the right come together. They can agree on this and they will. not support boots. Does that matter? I mean, I'm hearing calls for. a draft. Oh, yeah. I've heard the same. So a draft is the most. totalitarian thing you can do, forcing people to go die for. something they don't agree with. I don't hear any calls for like a. nationwide referendum every time we. want to send troops abroad. If you coupled the two, if you said, yeah, we're going to draft your son, but you also get to decide whether.

to send him or not, that would seem. like a democratic way to handle it. But this is a totalitarian way to. deal with it. Can you imagine. the electoral bloodbath. that would take place if Congress. voted in favor of a draft. I'm just saying this behavior. suggests like they don't care about. what. an election produces. I think if- Trump doesn't seem to. care about the midterms. Why is that? You know, he took the. words right out of my mouth. I was just going to say exactly the. same thing. He doesn't appear to. really care about midtermes.

Okay, so I'm. trying to stay calm and. everything, but if you're. calling for a. land invasion of Iran, a. draft to back it up, the. public hates this. There's no polling that suggests. otherwise. Elections are this fall. They're clearly gonna be punished. The party doing this is gonna be. punish, and they don't seem to care. What does this all add up to? Yeah, I don't think he. has the votes to pull off a draft,

um, at least not in. the Senate where he would need 60. votes to break cloture. Um, so I think that's, I think it's a non-starter. You do? I do. I think there are enough. He started a war with Iran without. Congress. Yeah, but a draft is something. different. I mean, that would require very. definitive congressional action. There are so many congressional. weaklings when it comes to issues. of war and peace. Look at Lindsey Graham. I get so frustrated even just.

listening to the man speak. Lindsey Graham has been all over the. map ideologically. Well, I think he's concluded that. neoconservatism is ascendant, and so he's jumped back in. He apparently has the president's. ear. And so he's, he's. the Trump whisperer telling the. president attack, attack, attack, but extending that to a draft. just does not have the. same kind of support. It's one thing for Lindsey Graham to. say the president should.

be free to bomb. our enemies and to send troops. and to sent, you know, naval. strike forces. Okay. I strongly disagree. I think what you're saying is. illegal, but okay. I get that this is a matter for. debate. Reinstating the draft. It clearly and obviously can. only be done by congressional action. and the votes are not there. I know that the. president has.

real concerns about the IC. And I think, as you said on. camera or off, that one of the. reasons he was willing to. take Mossad's view is. because he doesn't trust his own. intel agencies. How do you reform them? How do reform CIA? You're going to have to tear the. place down to the studs and. you're going to to have enact real. controls. I'll give you an example. And this may sound silly, but I. think it's important.

When I first joined the CIA, I. had literally no. idea the political views. of the people that I was, that I was. working with, no idea. I should say with whom I was. working. Um, in 1996, a woman that I sat next to got in. trouble. For discreetly taping up a. Bob Dole for president bumper. sticker in her own cubicle. She was called to HR. She was reprimanded, had a memo. put in her file.

She wasn't eligible for promotion. for a year because she had. violated the, the Cardinal rule. that we do not take political. positions. And I remember thinking, wow. And then we got to the point in. the not, you know, too. distant future where. The CIA is so politicized. that you end up with 51 senior. intelligence service officers. lying in. writing that. the Hunter Biden laptop.

bore all the hallmarks. of a Russian intelligence. operation, information operation. Like how did we get there? I had no idea. I'll give you another example. The 1992 election. We had a morning meeting like we did. every morning, every group in the, in the entire CIA has its morning. meeting at nine o'clock to just. discuss whatever happened in the. region that you cover the night. before. And my boss said at. that end of that morning meeting,

he said, I know we're not supposed. to do this, but I'm just really. curious who you guys. voted for this morning. And I thought, Oh yeah, we. never talk about stuff like that. I still remember it was three for. Bush, three for Clinton and. two for And I remember. thinking, wow, that's interesting. But I would never have known. Well, now it's like, you know, everybody was in bed with. Obama. Everybody was in bad with Biden. How did that happen? How did we get there so quickly?

When you know what the rules are. The rules are very clear. No politics. It's all about keeping the country. safe until it's. not until it is about politics. And so I think that to reform the. place, you have to tear it. down and then. rebuild and you have have real. rules that are really. followed that you. just cannot be political, you can't. And then, you know, maybe even this.

probably would be unconstitutional, but maybe you put the. brakes on political involvement for. 12 months or 18 months after you. Leave, just like there are breaks. on lobbying. You can't just go from Friday. afternoon, you leave your job and. Monday morning, you begin as a. lobbyist, lobbying your former. colleagues. You can do that. Well, one way would be to. make it more political. So CIA has the fewest. political appointees of any agency. That's right. I think there are three. or four, something like that.

That's it. There's like no civilian. control at this point. It's supposed to be the intel agencies, but they're, I mean, the intel. committees in the house. and Senate, but that, you know. Cheerleaders. Yeah, of course. They're just cheerleaders They pick. the weakest, drunkest, most compromised people to sit on. those committees. The conferences do. not vote on the. membership or the chairman or. vice chairman of the intelligence. committees. The intelligence committees are. select committees. They're not. standing committees. And so it's leadership that appoints.

all of the members. Fixes in from the beginning. Of course, no, the whole thing is. absurd. And I have to say, as I go down the. roster of the members. of those committees, I'm like, oh, they're the most screwed up people. in the entire Congress. That's true. Yeah, oh I'm aware. Oh, I know them. So why wouldn't you return. some measure. of public control to. CIA? You know, I hadn't thought of it. that way, but that's actually a good. idea. If you have, if.

you have a senior intelligence. service that's embedded, it's. not going anywhere, they're there. for 30, 35 years, and they're going to be. anti-president. or anti-Republican, then maybe you do need political. appointees to keep the honest people. out. Public ought to have some control. over what its government is doing, right? Yeah, you can say that again. Yeah. I spoke with a, I spoke with. a Senator a couple of days ago. I don't want to betray a.

confidence. So I'm going to be. careful with my language. Um, he has. entered into something of a dispute. with the intelligence committee and. they just won't budge. And what he's asking for is. legitimately under his purview. as the chairman of another committee. having to do with. security, foreign policy, you know, intelligence, whatever. And the CIA won't budge, the intelligence committee won't.

budge and he said, I don't. know what to do. And I said, well, you've got to. approach leadership. He said, that was the first place I. went. And leadership said, they. don't want to get involved in the. dispute between two chairman. So what do you do when. everybody on the intelligence. committee is there just to serve the. CIA, not to oversee it. Not to ensure that it follows the. law, just to cheerlead. for it. They spied on members of. Congress and were never punished for. it? Never. I remember Eric Holder saying,

now, now, I. got these referrals, these criminal. referrals, everybody needs to calm. down, nobody's gonna be. investigated. What do you mean. nobody's going to be investigated? The CIA broke into the. computer system of the Senate. Intelligence Committee to steal the. information that was being developed. there about the torture program. You're spying on members of. Congress. What do you mean there's nothing to. see here move along? It was a crime, but. never prosecuted.

Do you have any hope that. the government will. return to its original. purpose, which is serving. the population of the country? I've consistently been. criticized as being too. optimistic in life about everything. I'm always at glass half full. That's a great way to be. I'm, I'm. happy with the way I lead my life. on this. I can't see any reason.

at all to be optimistic. Really? Yeah. There are no more. Frank churches or Barry Goldwaters. or, you know, real. leaders, real leaders, I mean, even Tip O'Neill recognized. that Congress was a. co-equal participant. in government. And which drove Jimmy Carter nuts, but, but allowed him to negotiate. successfully with Ronald Reagan. Why can't we have that?

That worked. Why can we go back to that? I don't know. Maybe because as. governments degrade, all. of the power vests in the executive. I think that's what we're seeing. And the framers understood that. And then you, I'm gonna come back to. Lindsey Graham just because I have. so little respect for him. Then you have Lindsey Graham saying, we need a weaker Congress. I mean, that's essentially what he's. saying about the War Powers Act. Well, he's a totalitarian, so of. course he wants that.

What is that exactly? Why do the intel agencies and the. government of Israel seem to have so. much control over Lindsey Graham? I don't know. Ted Cruz is the same way. Yeah, what is that? And it's both people with weird. personal lives. Yes. Is that connected? Wow, you're gonna get me started. now. Well, I just noticed it. I notice it. Everybody I know who's a cheerleader. for the worst things is. vulnerable in some way. I think there's probably something. to that. Mm-hmm.

You know, it's funny, Alan. Dershowitz once said that the. most intelligent student he. ever had was Ted Cruz. I, I don't get that. I mean, I want my elected officials. to be smarter than I am. I want them to think outside. the box. I w I want to believe in them. He thought. was a genius? Yeah, that's what he said. I can say as someone who knows Ted. really, really well, that. that's not a word that's ever come.

to mind. Glib, but you know, blibness is. not IQ. Yeah. I mean, not a wise man at. all. Not a well-informed man. That's what I mean. There are no Birch Buys. or, I mean, on both sides, Birch Buy, Frank Church, Bob Dole, Barry Goldwater, Ted Kennedy. These thinkers that. gave us the government that we had. in the 60s, the 70s, and the 80s, they're just.

gone. Right. Yeah, all victims of affluence. and. Just flaccid thinking, which was a. result of flaccide living, you. know. It was nice. to worry about nuclear annihilation. every day because it makes you. sharper. We're talking off camera. about the governments around the. world that we respect have dealt. with, think are impressive and. smart. And they're all countries. that can't take anything for. granted. That's right. That are constantly fighting for. their own survival, having to. calculate everything.

from eight different angles. Like those are the most impressive. people. And the people who think. they're just like from. birth and the affluence will never. end. Work out. No. John Kerry, last question, are you getting a pardon? We've addressed this at length in. previous interviews. So anyone wanting to. know what, pardon for what can look. it up, but you were targeted. by the US government. on like insane grounds.

because you told the truth and. the only people who were ever. punished in the US Government are. those who tell the truth. No one's ever penalized for lying. And you were forced. to plead and. you're a convicted felon. and not someone who should be. So you're trying to get a pardon. I'm trying to get a pardon. Um, I think that I have. reached the president. I have absolutely wonders, wonderful support. Thanks to you. You've supported me from the very, very. Well, it's not even about you. It's the who I think of as a friend.

Yeah, it is ridiculous You shouldn't. send people to prison for telling. the truth. And if you do you're not. the good guy. No, I agree with you. Thank you for that. Um, I, I. have far more support. among Republicans than I have among. Democrats. Far more support. Why? Maga Republicans, you know, on the surface of things, it's. because the Obama administration. went after me, but, but it's, it'. more than that under the surface, deeper down, I think.

that. I think that MAGA Republicans. really do. believe in the. rule of law and in the. constitution. And really at the end of the day, this comes down to the constitution. when I put my hand in the air on my. very first day at the CIA, and I. promised to protect and defend the. constitution against all enemies, domestic and foreign. I meant it. And I hate to think that I was the. only person in the room that day. that did. Yeah.

And I think for the most. part, it's Republicans who respect. that. So. I've spoken with very high. level, well-placed people, close to the president, both in and. out of government. I know that the president knows that. I've applied for the pardon. Um, I, I will admit. to you that I disagree with the. president's policy on Iran, but. I don't think that's a big. deal. I mean, people disagree.

To me, that's the normal part. of life. Maybe you and I don't agree on. everything. We're still friends and. so I'm hoping that he does the right. thing. I would hate to say that your mild. and measured criticism of the. state of Israel would in any way. affect your eligibility for a pardon. because it's one thing to go. to war because you're pushed. by a foreign country, but to decide. how you treat your own citizens. based on their views of a foreign. county, that is treason. And I just, so I just hope. Thank you. That that plays no role.

I appreciate that. Either way. I'm optimistic. Thank you very much. John Carrick, thank you so much. Thanks so much, good to see you.