Darryl Cooper: The True History of the Jonestown Cult, WWII, and How Winston Churchill Ruined Europe

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So sometimes I think to myself, you know, why are current. events so unclear to so many people? And I always go back. to the question of history.

You can't really understand what's. happening right now unless you. understand what has happened before. You certainly can't plan a coherent. future unless you understand that, I. think, well, why do people know so. much, so little about history? Partly because it's not taught. And then the extent that it is. taught in, say, airport bookstores. You know, our popular historians are. people like Jon Meacham and Michael. Beschloss and Doris Kearns. Goodwin and Anne Applebaum. You know, not only sort of the. dumbest people in the country would. say, I know most of them. But also completely dishonest. political actors.

And so I think I just. want to I can tell you here. compliments, but I just want to say. I think you are the most important. popular historian working. in the United States today. You work in a different medium on. Substack X podcasts. But I'm a fan of yours because. of the way you treat history, which. is with relentless curiosity. and honesty. And I'm sure you have all kinds. of political beliefs, religious. beliefs, or whatever, but I feel. like you get to what you. think is true based on.

really intense research. So I just for those. people who aren't familiar with who. you are. I want people to know who you are. And I want you to be, widely recognized as the most. important historian in the United. States, because I think that you. are. So that's my last compliment. for our time together. I know it was excruciating. Tell us some of, the. stories we call them. Stories, but historical events that. you have taken a really close look. at recently. So I decided to start. with an easy one.

I did a 26 hour. Series on the early history of. Zionism and the Israeli-Palestinian. conflict. Whether that was. Naivete or hubris, it turned. Out pretty well. Yes. You know, and the reason it. turned out. Well, I think, and I've. had time to really. Think about it over the years. I started it in 2015. Took me a few years to complete. But I've received. Hundreds of emails from Israelis, from. Jews around the world who are, you. know, boosters of Israel,

as well as. Palestinians and people around. the Middle East and people who were. Critical of Israel, who all. of them on. All sides have kind of told me that. it opened up. At least opened up their perspective. to the way the other side saw the. world, which is what I was. Going for, you know. In all of my series, something that. I didn't. Really I think that the series that. you did on the formation of Israel, I think, is regarded by honest. people as the most honest, most. nonaligned look. No axis were being ground maybe.

ever done. Can you just tell people who aren't. familiar with it? What did it take to produce that you. said took a few years, but what did. you do in preparation for it? Well, you know, it's funny actually, because. When I first started it, I didn't. really know. What went into making a podcast like. that, right? So I had this. experience where. I started working on it after. I had read maybe like six books, because I only the series only goes. up to 1948. I did some follow up work on the. more modern period, but. This is up to. The foundation of the State of. Israel in the lead up to that.

Right. That's the I only covered that part. And so I didn't know if this was. going to be a one episode thing, a. two episode thing. I start working on it after. I've read about six. Books on that pre 1948. Period. And I'm working on it for maybe, you. know, quite a while taking my time. because I was working. For the Department of Defense at the. time. So it was, you know, a side. gig and wasn't even a gig. I didn't make any money from it. But. And after a while, when I started. to. Approach the end of that episode, this is months and months and months. later.

By now I've read 20 books, 30. Books about that pre 1948. period and a lot of the tangential. topics and issues that that, help. Better help. You better understand it. And I went back and I started going. Over what I'd created. for that first episode, and it was. so embarrassingly. Terrible where. you look at it and you're like, this. is not even that phrase, not even. wrong. It's like, this is not even. It was a nightmare to read and. you realize, and I realized.

something at that point I was like, I've read, I started this. I'd read six books on this topic. Six books is a lot, you. know, on a single historical topic. There's countless topics that. I've read a book or two on. And if you give me like an energy. drink and let me go, I'll start. pontificating for hours about. it, you know? Oh, I know the feeling. I read a book on the Federal Reserve. once. And so eventually I got to. the point. I counted them all up one. time. People keep asking me to put. Together a list. I can't put together a complete one. because. I just didn't keep.

Is going to track as I should, but I. read over 80. Whole books. Parts of another. 100 at least. And. About when I counted them up, I, I could remember. about like 12, 1300. academic papers in journal. I read everything I could find. So only people in prison read 80. books. Yeah, well, or people who work. for the Department of. Defense and their, job entails. spending 8 to 10 months a year going. overseas by yourself,

often with nothing to do in a. country that nobody speaks your. language. So. You know, I would I would go over. to, work with. one of our foreign. Allies, usually on, the weapons. systems that I specialized in. We'd go over there and we'd work. during the day. Most of the Ministry of Defense. people. It doesn't matter what. country you go to, you can go to. Israel. You can go to, Norway, you can go to Japan. Korea. All they want to talk about. is American gun culture. It's everybody know it is. And it's at an interest of yours.

Is that are you knowledgeable on. that topic? I wouldn't say I'm necessarily like. technically knowledgeable, like my. gun nut friends are. But yeah, in terms of, you. know, I'm a hunter and, gun owner, educated gun. owner, you know, but I. Have friends who are real gun nuts. that. That were totally fair, right? It's all specs. And I say that with all affection. when, you know, it's. And so, you know, I would go. overseas and spend my day, work day working with them, training. them, helping them with, you know,

whatever was broken or needed, upgrading whatever we were doing. over there. And sometimes I would, like I said, 8 to 10 months a year overseas. I would be doing this by myself. most of the time. And so after the workday was done, it's just me in my hotel with. nothing really to do. And, you know, I grew up when I was. growing up. I counted. these. Up one time and it was. Between kindergarten and 12th grade. I went to like. 35 different schools, like I was. changing school sometimes. Every few months. Not a good sign. Sorry. Yeah, well, you know,

one of the good habits I picked up. from it was reading because it, you know, books were what gave me a. sense of. Continuity from environment to. environment to environment. Right? I'm in the middle of a book and I. moved to another school, and I have. to adjust to that. But I'm still reading this. Book and it sort of patches me over. And that became sort of. The background reality of my life. As you know, I sort of moved. around in this unpredictable. Way, like for most of my early. years, I still have this, this thread that was coherent that I.

was following, you know, consistently. And so it definitely. helped with a sense of stability. like that. And this implanted this. idea that, you know, like I take. refuge in books. Yeah. It's it, you know, they, they. if I'm anxious, a lot of people. if they're anxious, they can't sit. down and read a book because they. can't sit still. Books make they make. my anxiety go away. It's what they do for me. And so, you know, I'm just. a nerd, is what I'm saying. Basically, write a nerd. And, I had a lot of time to read.

books. And once I started. really getting obsessed with the. podcast, you know, it got to the point where I was. waking up three hours early. so that I could read and write and. work on the podcast. If I was in a meeting and. we were waiting for the next speaker. to come in, I was working. on the podcast launch. I was working on the podcast. evening, I was working on the. podcast. And I mean became like a real. obsession, partly, partly because, I mean, left to my own devices, I.

would read books and talk to people. about them. That's, you know, if I. had $1 trillion and nothing to do. with myself, I would want a. whole library and a bunch of. interesting people that talk to you. about these books. That's what I do. anyway. Right? And so it was never really work. But yeah, that's the way you do it. You know, people who. want to do. So a lot of people I know who. started doing history podcasts or. other maybe not history, but, not sort of conversational, just,

back and forth discussion podcasts. where they do research and they want. to make a presentation. Right. And a lot of these guys who started. Back when I started, you know, 2015, 2016. And, you know, my. success up to this point, it's been. kind of unique in the space. Now everybody wants to. Listen to a seven hour podcast on. Jim Jones. And by the way, that's. Only the fifth out of. Seven episodes on the topic. Right? So that's not for everybody. And, you know, they. they ask me sometimes like, how do I. how could I do this as well.

as you do it? And other people who. are like aspiring. Podcasters have asked me that. And like you said, I don't like. compliments. And so I get shy when. people ask me things like that. But I tell them, and you're going to. object to this because you're a nice. fellow. And everything, but like. I'm not that smart. I'm not. That's it's nothing like. that. I work on this. You have to like if you want to do. something like this, you have to. be willing to get up a little early. to use your lunch hour to. You got to spend time in books. You got to read and read.

And then when you think you've read. enough, you got to read some more. And because there's just there's so. much out there, like I said, I had. experience after I had read six. books on just the pre. 1948 period of, you know, the Zionist Israeli-Palestinian. conflict story. And I knew nothing, Tucker. I knew nothing like embarrassingly, nothing worse than nothing because. like, at least before I read, was. the. Illusion of knowledge. Yeah. At least before I had read the. books, I would just be. repeating to you whatever I had. heard, you know, Benjamin.

Netanyahu say, or somebody or. whatever, somebody like on TV, I at least would have just been. repeating that. this was worse. This was like the full Midwest kind. of in, you know, in production. where, where. you know, enough to really. embarrass yourself. And I'm glad that I sort of. recognized that at the time. And I went back and, like, scrapped. the whole thing, didn't start it for. another year after that, probably because I just realized. that, you know, I got to get deeper. into this. And as I have moved through,

different topics over the years, because I don't do an Israel. Palestine podcast, I do a history. podcast, and, I choose topics based on. What I want to read about. You know, that's all it is. Like, usually while I'm working on. one, something as I'm sort of. getting into the second half, finishing it up, I can see the. finish line on the thing I'm working. on now. It'll get harder and harder to. discipline myself to stay on that. topic, because there's something. that's pulling me away, too.

I know the feeling. Yeah. And so it's like a feeling of. relief where like, I finish it and. now I can I already know the next. topic because it just emerged kind. of naturally. And I move on to that. And sometimes. they're very, very different. I've done, like I said, a, you know, 32 hour series. on the Jonestown cult, which turned into you say, how do. you do 32 hours on that? I told the the story of, you. know, the 32 hours. Yeah. Well, the reason for that and. I didn't know this going in. I never know exactly how this is. going to unfold when I'm going in, unless it's like sometimes I'll do a.

single. Episode and I kind of know the. story. But when I start a long series, it's. going to take me a year and a half. to put out every episode. I don't necessarily know how it's. going to turn out. And, you know, when you look at. something like the Jonestown cult. and for people who don't know, in 1978, everybody's. heard the phrase, don't drink the. Kool-Aid. Right? And that's what people know about. Jonestown, basically, is that. Christianity sometimes goes off the. rails. Don't drink the Kool-Aid. Thousand people, you know, 916 people.

committed mass suicide in the. jungles of Guyana, right. at the direction of this of this. preacher, Jim Jones. That's the most people know about. it. When you open any book about it, even mainstream books about it, which, you know, again, most people. don't get to that point. This won't be in any of the. documentaries. For the most part, that you see. We open to like page 1 or. 2 of any book about it. And the first thing you see is that. 75% of the people that died out. there were African Americans. Yeah. Black women from Oakland.

From Oakland. But if they were over. 40 or 50 years old, there weren't. really any black people in Oakland. until the Second World War. So these were migrants who had come. from the South as part of the Great. Migration. Right. And you'd think like, if. 75% of the people that died out. there were Mexican immigrants, first generation Mexican, that that. that wouldn't be a part of the. story. That would be like this. story, like what is going on here, right? Not just how did this. religious cult get out of control? And like, like you really need to.

understand that I never knew that. I always knew about Jonestown on the. surface level, but I saw that I'm. like, I have to understand this. better. And so, you know, it drew me like deep. into the history of African. American, life in America, post post-slavery. and really, really deep into the. Great. Migration and the forces that drove. it and the experiences that African. Americans encountered when they got. to the cities of the North and West. when they left the rural South. And, you. know, when I get emotional,

when I think about the Jonestown. story, I worked on that for a long. time. I read literally every single. book or thing that's been written. about it, and there's. a. Lot of. docu, I think it was. UCSB had an interview. here. I mean, there's just a lot out. there. That not only that, the FBI sees. 1000 hours of tapes from Jonestown. after the suicide, and they're all. available online. I've listened to all of it, and most. of it twice, like for months. I had this guy's sermons in my head. I had there like backroom midnight.

meetings where they're all going. through struggle sessions, screaming. at each other, beating each other. up. All of their recordings. of these late night torchlight. sessions that they would have, out in Guyana in the jungle. You know, if you watch most. documentaries about Jonestown, it's all about the craziness. of the last year, which is when they. were all actually in Jonestown in. Guyana. These people have been together for. 20 years. You know, he started his first. church in the 1950s. And this is a guy. Jim Jones, who,

you know, in 1953, in. Indianapolis, which was a KKK. stronghold at the time, you know, because the of the. Second KKK was not really a. Southern anti-black movement, it was. more of a midwest and northern. urban, anti-Catholic and. anti-Jewish. And so, Indianapolis was one of the. strongholds. And he lived. That's where he lived at the time. He's like a 23 year old. guy. He was born 39, maybe 24. years old, starting his first little. Methodist church in this storefront.

with folding chairs, you know, and he and his congregation are. going out and boycotting stores. in 1950, three years. before anybody heard of a bus. boycott or anything like that, you. know, with Martin Luther King, he's. going out there and doing that, getting death threats from KKK. leaders, getting death threats from. the American Nazi Party, trying to. integrate these businesses. Right. And so this is a true believer, like. when it comes, is he his family? He adopted, the first African. He was the first white family to. adopt an African American child in.

the history of the state of Indiana. And this was back in the 50s. And he was, you know, if Jim Jones. had been hit by a bus in 1962, they moved out to, they. moved out. To the Bay area in 1965. He would be remembered today as one. of the early. Pioneers of the American civil. rights. Movement. And like, revered for it, he really would be right. And so I started to read about this. stuff, and I and. I realized that there was this. theme that was starting to emerge.

In all of my podcast, for the most. part. The Israel Palestine one, in this. one, which is here's this guy. who really is an idealist. And I'm not saying he didn't have. pathologies, you know, that were. already inherent in there, although. I'm very suspicious of accounts. when, you know, whenever. I'm reading a book about in all of. the Jones, Jim. Jones. Biographies are like this, and you. have to learn how to. Like, read past it. But you're reading a book about. Stalin, and the author. went and found and interviewed. somebody who was in sixth grade.

with him or something, and they're. like, you know, he got tripped on. the playground one time and stood up. and said, I'll get revenge on all of. you one day. And that's when I knew. I'm I just. I'm very suspicious of all those. stories, you know? And so you have this guy who's a. true idealist, and he could be, you. know, whether or not his, his, his. politics were correct. or whether his, you know, was. misguided. That's a separate. question. He was an idealist. Like, you really believe these. things. He really did treat people in a way. that in 1953, in America.

was uncommon, you know, and. And so you have this idealist, just like with the, in the. Israeli-Palestinian conflict. at the beginning, you read all the. early accounts of the early. Zionists, and it's. all about it's just it's. soaring rhetoric about returning. to the Holy Land, and it's people. who have really grand, idealistic visions of what it's. going to be like when they get down. there. And then people run into the rocks. of reality.

And how we respond to that? Pressure, you know, really defines the, the destiny of a movement and the. people in it. And there are always there are. always going to be people. and sometimes entire movements, that the. Pressure ends. Up, you know, turning them off. the road a completely, you know, going into a ravine. That's kind of what happens. So if you look at, like, the. Jonestown story, the reason it. turned into a 32 hour series. Is. Like I said, they started in the.

1950s doing. stuff that you would recognize. as just early civil rights stuff. You know, boycotting a local. business to get them to integrate. Right around the time a few years. before. But like the Martin Luther. King was going to start that kind of. thing. And then so you have. Greensboro, you have these things. and their trajectory. as an organization, the People's. Temple. I realized, I mean, they that that trajectory. from about 53 to. 1978, when everything came to an. end, that 25 year trajectory.

follows almost. to the month. I mean, it is uncanny, like how. perfectly it follows. It makes perfect sense because of. how plugged into it they were. It follows the trajectory of the. civil rights and protest movement in. America through its rise. Its peak, its radicalization, and then its decline in the late 60s. and then into the 70s, into insanity. and death. I mean, and it is. I mean, it's almost a. You can tell the story of Jonestown.

and give a month by month account. of that process of those protest. movements being radicalized. and. Turning to violence and insanity in. the 60s and. 70s. And so it became a vehicle for that. And that's what that's what really. the story is about. It's about that period of American. history from the mid 50s. up until about 1980. So how'd you like to cut your cell. phone bill in half? Every single month is probably. pretty high. Have you checked out. recently? Verizon, AT&T and T-Mobile. want you to believe that you have to. have something called unlimited.

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is quite amazing. Willie Brown was one of them. Oh yeah. But I mean, every mayor of San. Francisco. I have specific. contempt for all of those people. Just because. You know, it wasn't just that. when Jim Jones was a. power broker in San. Francisco, that they would go give a. speech at the church because they're. trying to bring out votes or. Something. You know, you had Angela Davis, you. had Huey Newton, you had a lot of. these other people who.

when these people were in Jonestown. And I mean, you got to remember a. lot of the first of all 300 of those. thousand or so. People were kids. Another 300 to 400. were people. Over, like, 60 years old. Okay. So. you I mean, that's who's out. there. Two, third, fully two thirds. of the people who committed suicide. out there were kids or. Senior citizens, right? And as they're approaching. this point of just maximum. paranoia, maximum group. psychosis down there, you know, when.

you listen to the recordings that. they've that they left for us and. they're just getting increasingly. deranged, they're certain that the. CIA is going to come and kidnap. their children and put them through. brainwashing. This is not just Jim Jones in his. charisma telling these people this, this, these people understood. themselves as a revolutionary. movement. And they were true. believers like they were true. believers. These people, a lot of people like to say that at. the end, it was basically murder. These people were forced to do this. These people were, at least for the. vast majority of them, were not.

forced to do it. They believed in. what they were doing, and they they. Jim Jones by that point was almost. like a figurehead of the movement, to be honest with you. He was just. sort of the titular leader. But, the movement, the. organization was running itself, and. you had a bunch of true believers. who were out there trying to start a. revolution and start a new society. in the jungle. And in the last few months. when they're approaching just. maximum. Psychosis and paranoia. You've got, like Angela Davis,

Huey Newton, Harvey Milk, like a lot of these. I think you. might, you know, you got killed. shortly after, who are literally. calling in to Jonestown and being. put on the speaker for everybody to. listen, saying, we know. that, like, you know, the government. is after you. And we just want you to know that we. have your back and, you know, there's just the whole world is. coming after you, but we're there. for you. We're on your side. This is a bunch of people who are, like, approaching a crisis. Point of paranoia and psychosis is. going to lead to their mass death. within a few months.

And that's what these people. Are doing, calling in, just. Feeding into it. And, you know, it makes me. sick because you have people. And I know this wasn't maybe. supposed to be just a Jonestown. thing, but this topic, again, like. it's it affected me. a lot. Right. Like there's this one woman, she was the lead singer of the. Jonestown band. And the night before they all. committed suicide. Leo Ryan, the congressman was there. and his entourage was there, and. they put on a performance and. there's a video. Jackie Speer became a member.

of Congress yourself. Yep. And there's a video. of, that night, you know, it was, in. the in they show a musical. performance. And this woman, who's. the lead singer and band conductor. is up there, and she's this, you know, this African American. woman, beautiful, great voice. up there. Like, really, like. Confidently commanding the stage. and like. In really in her element. Right. Well, her back story was back. in Indianapolis, Jim. Jones, when his family had lived.

there. Knew her when she was a little girl. Just a little bit of her mom came to. the church some. Something like that. And. after Jim Jones and his people left. You know, she got abandoned by her. mother. She ended up. But being pimped. out by her drug dealer boyfriend. when she was 1516 years. old, and she's living her. life on the streets, being beat up. by this guy who's forcing her to. go out and, in.

Prostitute for him, you know. And that's her life. And now she's about 20. She committed suicide 3 or 4 times. at this point. And now she's 20. And the Jonestown people make. a trip back to. Indianapolis because they would go. around the country and their busses. and, you know, speak at churches and. hold events and. Stuff. And so they go back there. And she just kind of knew who. the Jones family was, she said. They treated her with kindness and. her mother with kindness when she. was a little girl. And she's in a in. the depth of suicidal depression, drug addiction, you know,

it's the close to the. end, right? And. Man, even in the podcast when I was. recording, it makes me emotional. because they got out there. She, she went there to the event. when the, when the Jonestown people. came in because she just remembered. that like, these people had been. kind to her 15 years ago. You know, when she was a little. girl. And so she came out to see. and Jim Jones sees her and. immediately recognizes her. and starts talking. to her, just, you know, friendly. everything.

The people start talking to her and. she starts telling them kind of. about how her life's gone since that. time. And he said, oh, well, great, like you said, not great. But he said, oh, well, come with. us. Hop on the bus. Let's go. Like we've got houses. We got a whole community out here. like, you know, you know, we can. find a job for you until you do. something. Whatever. Yeah, come on out. And so she did. She did. And she went out there and they. cleaned her up. They got her off drugs. They took this broken, destroyed, abused woman.

And put her in an environment where. it. And again, you have to understand. that even this, this psychotic. movement, you know, the way it. turned out, this part was genuine. They put her into an environment. where, she felt. like she belonged, and it really. was. The people cared about her, and she. cared about the people there, you. know? And so she ends up being the. bandleader. She's like a super. talented magician, musician. And she's writing the song. She's leading the the practices.

for the band. She's a lead singer in. everything. And. You know, and she died out there. with all the rest of them. You know, with all the rest of those. old people and kids. And everybody. Else. She, she committed suicide with everybody. else the night after. You see that video? That's amazing. that you watch that video. I mean, I don't think I'd want to. see something like that. I had to. Yeah, well, of course, you. know, I had to. I have a rule. And I've broken this rule once, and.

and it's a probably an episode. I'm just, like, least proud of. Maybe. Although it's a lot of. People's favorite episode. Like, I have a rule that I don't. start a podcast until. I feel like I can at least. understand where everybody. in. This story is coming from. I didn't start the Israel Palestine. Podcast until I felt like I could. see how the Zionists saw. things, how the Arabs saw things, how the British saw things, and how. their behavior toward each other. made sense.

To them in the context of of. Their own world. And I did the same thing with. Jonestown, which was a challenge. because, I mean. Talking about, you know, a psychotic cult leader who. Yes. Who dragged his people to. their deaths, you know, in the. jungle there meaningless deaths. There were literally people, Tucker. Who? Many hundreds of people, parents who were injecting. cyanide into their babies mouths, and watching them froth and twitch. until they were sure they were dead. And then they could take the. suicide, drink themselves.

Because. They had done that. This is. almost 1000 people. It was one woman who, was. in the Capitol. She wasn't. She was at their office in the. Capitol. She wasn't out at the, at. the actual compound. And when she got the call, like, it's time we're doing it. She slashed her kids throats and. then stabbed herself in the heart. I mean, this is. And yet. These people loved each other. These people actually did believe, like in. equality. They believed in like.

human brotherhood and all these. things. And she slashed her. kids throats. And you, if you're going to tell a. story like that, you. can't do what all of the biographies. of Jim Jones do. You know, they all talk about, like, these weird things about him as a. kid and something where it was all. there at the beginning, and it was. just the the gradual, you know, the gradual flowering. And unfolding of this psychosis that. had always been in there. And all these other people just got. sucked into it. It's just this total nonsense. You really have to understand how.

people could get to a place like. that from where they were. You know, everybody. doesn't matter who you're talking. about. Uday Hussein. There was a time. And I always try to keep this in. mind because. I mean, it's like it's one of the. governing thoughts as I go through. any of these stories. Uday Hussein, Joseph Stalin. I don't care who you're talking. about. There was a time where that. was a little three year old kid. That's right. And they weren't evil. They weren't,

who they became. And so how. did they become what they ended. up being? You know. So I think you're approaching this, which is why I am so. impressed by what you do and want. more people to experience it. You're approaching this from the. most honest possible perspective. and allowing readers, viewers, listeners to come to their. conclusions with them with the. maximum amount of information. Which you're not doing is using. history as a.

weapon, a cudgel, or as a kind of propaganda. tool to make policy. So in that, you almost. stand alone. I would say right now, I'm really interested in the project. that you're working on now. I'm a little bit baffled by it, so. I'm just going to answer my own. questions that you are working on, World War two, which. has to be even more than the Kennedy. assassination, the most. written about event in human. history. I can't think of one that. has occasion more book.

So, why World. War two? Well, you know, I was giving a talk. to. A in on, a graduate history class at the. University of Vienna a while back. online, giving him a talk. And. One of the things. That I said to them, and I was. curious how this was going to go. over in Austria. But it seemed to go overall. Right. And as I told them over the. next few decades, like, look. Any time you have a historical event.

for us in. The United States, it's a civil. rights movement. It's World War two. And to a certain degree, it's still. the Civil War. Everything in between and before. those things. You can do whatever. you want. Doesn't matter. You think that the Russians were to. blame for World War One and not the. Germans? You think it was all. British conspiracy? You can do whatever you want. It's fine, because that's not part. of the founding mythology of the. order that we're. All living in at this time, right? Those other things are. And whenever you have. a historical event that.

is mythologized. And when I say that, I don't mean. myth. Like it's a myth, that's a lie. It's not what I mean. I mean that. It's it's a formative part. of how we all. Understand the world we're in, or at. least officially like the official. world, like. The structures we live. Structures we live in. It's the justification. For a lot of those structures, right? Whenever you have those things, you're going to have. taboos. You're going to have certain ways. that certain topics have to be. talked about that are going. To guarantee that that.

that that topic is just profoundly. misunderstood. And I told the students. At the University of Vienna, I said, over the next couple. decades. Like, we're going to get to a point. where the interwar. period. And the Second World War are far. enough away that people can actually. start taking a more honest look at. everything that went on. And it is going to be the most. fruitful place that any aspiring. historian can. Dive into, because we spent the last. 70 years, I mean, in Europe's case, like literally throwing people in. jail for looking.

Into the wrong corners, right? So there's so and even even. Particularly in Austria. Right, right. And so even in the. united was invaded country. So I'm not exactly sure why it's so. important. Yeah. Well I mean that's a. big topic, but I mean, even the. United States where, where, where you're not. Going to go to jail necessarily for, for doing that, you might have your. life ruined and lose your job. You might absolutely go to jail in. this country nowadays. You might. Yeah. But, you know, if you. could write a book, you could take. any. Angle on any one. You're not going.

to ever get a job or have a. publisher want to publish anything, but. You could do it. You can go out on. The street corner and stand on a box. and say whatever it is you think. But even even still. You know, that event is really. it's it's it's it's such a core part. of. The state religion that there. are emotional triggers built in to. people since childhood that almost. prevent them. From, from taking. an. Approach that would, that would. that might lead. Them. To information or to conclusions.

That are not part of the state. religion version of that event, you know? And and again, you're. going to find that I'm sure the. Peloponnesian Wars were like that. for the ancient Greeks. Well, by the way, the American. Revolution, which is now totally. irrelevant, to modern. America, unfortunately, was. like that. The life of Lincoln was. like that. Lincoln was a very. complicated guy. It's not an endorsement of slavery. Well, speaking for myself, I think. slavery is disgusting. It's the worst thing. If what you're saying is absolutely. right, it's not just the Second.

World War that is sort of uniquely. censored or, protected. the mythology around it. It's it's every event that's central. to a nation's understanding of. itself. And then that changes over. time. So do you think that we are. far enough away 80 years from. that war, where you. can try to take as an. objective look as you can, and that will be allowed? No, I don't. I think we've got a little, little. ways to go on that. But.

I hope I can kind of start to break. the ice a little bit, you know, because. Like. Here's the problem with doing. something like that, and this is something I'm very aware. of, is I research it and start to. work on the project, is that when. You have a mythologized. Historical event that is told, there is I mean, again, you go to. a lot of places in Europe. It's a legal, requirement over. here. It's not quite that, but it. almost might as well be, where. that. This event is going to be described. from a certain perspective. You're going to approach it a.

certain way, you're there, there's certain things you're not. allowed to question. You have to like. Literally, it's a crime to ask. questions. Yes. Then whenever that's the case, when. you try to add. Any type of balance to. that account, when you try to tell. the story in a way that brings other. approaches and other perspectives. into it, it's going to look like. you're trying to justify those. other things. That's just how. It's going to seem to people who are. very locked into this side. And so if you start talking about. the interwar period. and how Weimar, the Weimar.

culture, you know, after the First. World War led. to something like, the rise of the. National Socialists and why. the people who embraced that. movement did embrace. it. In a way that's not. Just, you know, was because they. were, you know, you had this. country, Germany, a sophisticated. Cultural, you know, super. Power. That was fine. And then they all turned into demons. for a few years, and now they're. fine again. Like, that's sort of the. official story. And I think deep. down, we all know that makes no. sense. Everything has a cause, you know,

again, to go back like Uday Hussein. got to be Uday Hussein from that. three year old little kid. Jim Jones got to be Jim Jones. from being that guy who. was just in earnest. Local. Indianapolis civil rights. activist. They all got to be those people that. led to the chaos. that they eventually invited into. the world and onto themselves and. their. People through their experiences. in the world and through a series. of decisions, decision points that at the time.

If you can. If you can bring. yourself to step into the shoes of. those people. And it's not a comfortable thing to. do. I mean, when I, I literally listened to probably. 2000. Hours of Jim Jones's sermons. and him screaming at his people and. just going insane. To the point where I was dreaming. about this guy for months. I would have my headphones in as I. was working listening to Jim Jones. It's really hard. Yeah, I know. You the only guy in the office doing. that. I think I'm probably the only person. in the world that's done that.

And so, like, I got to the point. where I felt like I knew this guy. I, I could notice. from tape to tape, I. would hear. Changes in his tone of voice. And I knew. Whether he was. High on amphetamines that day or if. he had taken his barbiturates. already. And now he's. You could just. I felt like I knew this guy. And their tapes, by the way, they're. not all from, like, one year. They're from like 15, 20 years. Right. So you can you can. watch this process of,

of, of a descent into madness as. it's happening and. You know, to get to a point where. you can bring yourself to step into. the shoes of. Any other human being and understand. that as much as. You know, as much as it makes. You uncomfortable, it is just a. human being. And at the very, very like base. level, their motivations are the. same as yours. Their needs are the. same as yours. But that we're very we're. multivariate species that can go. A lot of different directions. Right. And, and to be.

able to do that and force yourself. to. Do it is the key. And so when you do. something. Like that with. I mean, again, like a historical. event like World War two, where. I mean, the. One rule is that you. Shall not do that. You shall not look at. This topic and try to understand. how the Germans saw the world. Like how? The whole thing from the First World. War on up to the very end of the. war. How these people might. have genuinely felt like they were. the ones under attack.

That they were the ones being. victimized. By their neighbors and by all these. By the Allied powers. You know, and you can you. can handle that. With a sentence, you know, you can. wave it off and say, well, you know, they're justifying themselves, their. rationalizing, their evil or. whatever you want to say. But again, that's it. I think we're getting to the point. where. That's very unsatisfying for. People. Most of us. Well, actually, all of us go through. our daily lives using all sorts of. quote free technology. without paying attention to why.

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It's. More than unsatisfying. I mean, it's childish and shallow. Of course. Hold on. Let me. Sorry to interrupt, but that's true. But every society. has founding myth 100%. And. And you need them. You know, like, I don't think that. we're necessarily. Better off now that. people are. Now that people are. able to just freely tear down a. statue of George Washington because. he was a slave owner. Right. And so, like, there are. sacred, symbols.

And national myths. That any group of. People are going to need to hold. themselves together. And there's also peril in knowing. the truth about things. I mean, if when we finally find out. how President Kennedy. was murdered in 1962, when we. finally find out what all these. weird lights in the sky or at night, we really get to the truth of that. Will we be better off or not? I mean, don't you know those are. fair questions? I don't know the answer. But but let me just say what. I completely agree with you. in particular.

Any unifying myth you know. is important. I'm just highly distressed. by the uses. to which the myths about World. War Two have been put. in the context of modern foreign. policy, particularly the war in. Ukraine. And, but but not just the war in. Ukraine. So many others. You know, Churchill's the good guy. Neville Chamberlain is the bad guy. You know, it's just it's two. Pat. It's obviously wipe. it all. But it also was justified, like the.

killing of millions of people since. the end of the Second World War. And so I do think it's fair to ask, like what what really was. going on. So one for example. And I'm American. I'm not English. So I don't have any. weird motive in asking this, but. how would you assess Winston. Churchill? I got in trouble with my podcast. partner, Jocko Willink one time. because he's a New England. Dutchman who's his family. It's near and dear to their Dutch, but. Very near and dear to their heart.

that Winston Churchill is a hero. Well, everyone, everyone thinks. that. He really. Thinks. That. And I told him that. I think, and maybe I'm being a. little a little hyperbolic. Maybe. But I told him maybe. Trying to provoke him a little bit, that I thought Churchill was the. chief villain of the Second World. War. Now, he didn't kill the most people. He didn't. Commit the most atrocities. But I believe and I don't really. think, I think when you really get. into it and tell the story. Right. And don't leave anything out. You see that he was primarily.

responsible for that war becoming. what it did, becoming something. other than an invasion of Poland. Or just, I mean it every step of the way, like people are very often, I. find, surprised to learn. there's there's a. Two step process. But why don't you make the case make. the case for that. Okay. So you've. made your statement. A lot of people are thinking, well, wait a second. You said Churchill, my childhood hero, the guy with the. cigar. Yeah. Well, in the next thought. That comes into their head, he's. saying, is that. Oh, you're saying Churchill was the. chief villain, therefore his.

enemies, you know, Adolf. Hitler and so forth, were. Stalin. Protagonists, right? They're the good guys. If you think he's a villain, that's. not the case. That's not what I'm. saying. You know. Germany. Look, they they put themselves. into a. Into a position in Adolf. Hitler's chiefly responsible for. this. But it's all regime is. responsible for it, that when they. went into the East. In 1941. They launched a war where. They were completely unprepared. To deal with the. Millions and millions of.

Prisoners of war, of. local political prisoners and. so forth that they were going to. have to handle. They went in with no plan for that. And they just threw these. People into camps. And millions of people ended up dead. there. You know, you have, you. have like, letters. As early as July, August. 1941. From commandants of these makeshift. camps that they're setting up for. these millions of people who were. surrendering or people that are. rounding up and. They're. So it's two months. after a month or two after.

Barbarossa was launched, and. they're writing. Back to the high command in Berlin, saying. We can't feed these people, we don't have the food to. Feed these people. And one of them actually says. Rather than wait for them all to. slowly starve this winter, wouldn't. it be more. Humane to just finish them off. quickly now? And so this is like. Two months into the invasion, right? And like my view on this, you know, I argue with my Zionist. Interlocutors about this all the. time with regard to the current war.

in Gaza. But, man, like. maybe you as the, you know, the. Germans, you felt like. You had to invade to the. east. Maybe you thought that Stalin. was such a threat. Or that if he launched a. Surprise attack and seize. The oil fields in Romania, that you. would now not have the fuel to. actually respond and you'd be. crippled and all of Europe would be. under threat, and whatever. it was, whatever it was like, maybe. you thought you had to. Do that, but at the end of the. day, you launched that war. with no plan to care for the. millions and millions of civilians.

and prisoners of war that were going. to come under your control. And millions of people died because. of that, right? You know, you can look at it and say. like. You know it. Well, yeah. So get back to your like. your main question about Churchill. You know, if you go to. 1939, when the Germans and the Soviet. Union invade Poland. As soon as. That war's wrapped up on the German. side, Hitler starts. firing off peace proposals to.

Britain. France? Because they had already declared. war. He was. He didn't expect them to. Declare war, actually. I think there's, you know, a famous. scene where he kind of throws a fit. when he finds out that they actually. did. Did they did do that? And so he doesn't. Want to fight France. He doesn't. want to fight Britain. He feels that's going to weaken. Europe. When we've got this huge threat to. the east, the communist threat over. there. And he starts firing off. peace. Proposals, says, let's not do this. like we can't do this. And of course, you know, year. goes by. 1940 comes around and they're still.

at war. And so he launches his. invasion to the West, takes over. France, takes over. Western and northern Europe. Once that's done, the British have. You know, escaped at Dunkirk. There's no British force left on the. continent. There's no opposing force. left on the continent. In other words, the war is over and. the Germans won. Okay. But by. But by what point? Fall of 1940. Right. So there's just there's.

literally no opposing force on the. on the continent and. throughout that summer. You know, if Hitler is firing off. radio broadcasts. Giving speeches, literally sending. planes. Over to drop leaflets over. London and other British cities, trying to get the message to these. people that Germany does not want. To fight you, like we don't want to. fight you offering peace proposals. that, you know, said, you keep all your overseas colonies. We don't want any of that. We want Britain to be strong. The world. Needs Britain to be strong, you. know, especially as we face this.

communist threat and so. Forth. Like this. This is what's going on. And I think that if there were. people in Britain. who, who if. they hadn't put. It this way, if they hadn't been so. successful at delegitimizing, the peace approach by demonizing. Neville Chamberlain and so forth and. holding him responsible for the. invasion of Poland. That people would have been. they would have understood, like. we don't need. Another. Repeat of the First World War. You know. We don't, you know, which is not. what ended up.

Happening. But that's what everybody. thought. Was going to happen. And so Churchill, I mean, you have a. guy who once he Churchill wanted. a war, he wanted to. fight Germany. And the reason that I, I don't. begrudge him that, you know, people. can national leaders, you can fight. whoever you want. If, you know, if. you feel like your long term, the long term interests of the. British Empire, threatened by the. rise of a powerful continental power. like Germany. And you need to check. that those are great power. games, and you play them the way you. feel like you. Need to play them. That's fine. The reason I resent Churchill so.

much for it. Is that he kept this war going. when he had no way, he had. no way to go back and fight this. war. All he had were bombers. He was literally, by 1940, sending. firebomb fleets. Sending bomber fleets. To go firebomb. The Black Forest. Just to. Burn down sections of the Black. Forest. Just just rank terrorism, you know. Going through and, starting. to. You know, what eventually became. just the carpet bombing, the. saturation bombing of civilian. neighborhoods, you know. To kill is the purpose of which was.

to kill as many civilians as. possible. And all the men were out in the. field. All the fighting age men were out in. the field. And so this is old people. It's women. And children. And they knew that. And they were. Wiping these places out. as gigantic scale. terrorist. Attacks, the greatest. You know, scale of terrorist attacks. you've ever seen in world history. Why would he do that? Because it was the only means that. they had to continue fighting. At the time. You know, they didn't have the. ability. To re invade Europe. And so he needed to keep this war. going until he accomplished.

what, you know, what would you hope. to accomplish? We know now there's actually a. really great series of books. It's it's one of the best. I recommend to everybody. But it's really expensive now. And, it's six long volumes. called History of British Special. Operations in the Second World War. And one of. The books gets into. the level of, just. The extent. Of media. Operations, propaganda operations, everything that they were running in. the United States to eventually drag. us into that war. And that was his whole plan.

His whole plan was we don't. we don't have a way to fight this. war ourselves. This war is over. We need either the Soviet Union or. the United States to do it for us. And that was the plan, and. Kept the war going long. Enough for that plan to come to. fruition. And to me, that's just it's a. craven, ugly. way to to fight a war. And, what was the motive? Well, you know, Churchill's got a. long. And complicated history. I mean, he's, you know, he's. somebody who.

That was the driest smile. I think I've ever seen. Yeah. Well, look. I think on one level, there was a sense that. Churchill was sort. Of humiliated by his performance in. the First. World War. As the head of the Admiralty, and he. was out in the cold for a long time. I mean, Gallipoli. Yeah. And which, you know, was. That was his operation, you know, and. So he was. Rightly held responsible for that. and seen as responsible for one of. the great disasters that the British.

suffered during that. War. And so I think part of it is. probably kind of personal. You know, he wanted redemption. He wanted to go out there and like, prove that he's the the warlord, that they can go out there in. and fight this big war. Probably I think part of. it I like I read. About Churchill and he strikes me. as a psychopath. But he's also. A sort of. I mean, he was a drunk. He was very childish and strange. ways people would talk about how as. an adult, like at, you know, as.

prime minister, they'd find him in. his room and he's like playing with. action figures like war toys and. army men and stuff, and would get. mad when people would, would. interrupt him, you know, when he was. just. This is a strange, strange. fellow, you know. His all those things. But then you get into, you know, why. was why was Winston Churchill such. a such a. Dedicated booster of Zionism. from early on in his life? Right. And there's. Ideological reasons. One, you know. Like in. 1920.

He wrote a kind of infamous now. article called Zionism Versus. Bolshevism. And he basically. Makes the case that. Which was which was true to a large. extent that. all. Of Eastern Europe, the Pale of. Settlement, which is where the vast. majority of Jews lived other. than the United States, which is. where a lot of them had had traveled. to. That. That area. Had been had become so engulfed. by a revolutionary spirit. That all of the young Ashkenazi.

Jews who were over there were. getting swept up into it. It was. The 60s here on. Steroids, right? And in a much more serious it ended. up being destructive way. And this is 1920. So as you shortly after the. Bolshevik Revolution. Basically. The point of his paper. Is he says, these people who over. there. They're all going one. Direction or the other. They're going to be Bolsheviks. They're going to be Zionists. We want them to be. Zionists, you know? And so we need to support this. And so that was early on. There was an ideological component. of it. But then as time goes on, you know, you read stories about.

Churchill going bankrupt and needing. money. Getting bailed out by people who. shared his interests, you know, in terms of. Zionism, but also, his. hostility. Just, just. You know, I think his hostility, to. put it this way, I think his. hostility to Germany was real. I don't think. That he necessarily had. to be bribed to have that. feeling. But, you know, I think he was, to an extent, put in place by.

by people, the financiers, by a media complex. That wanted to make sure that he was. the guy who, you know, who is who was representing. Britain in. That conflict for, for the, for a. reason. And. You know, Churchill's a. Again, it's so hard. Because like, you know, especially. in a short interview like this. where. You have this guy.

Who? I mean, he's a he's an Abraham. Lincoln, George Washington, Martin Luther King like type figure. in the in the sort of Western. consciousness, right? Yes. And so people have so many. Assumptions in built in triggers, like when it comes to this guy, that. it's hard. To talk about it because you're. always thinking about. The triggers that you're setting off. and your listeners. And I don't say that in a way of. like, I don't want to offend. anybody. No, no, I understand it's that it's, you know, you know, that things. are. Going to be misunderstood. And so this is why I do 30, our.

podcast. Well, it's just it's interesting. because I, you know, as a follower. of your work, I don't see you as. hostile to the West. I see you actually as a product of. the West and as a defender, really. of the West for its values. You know, in your approach, in your. open mindedness, rigor, you know, belief in accuracy and. honesty and those are Western. notions. And yet Churchill has. been positioned and has been and. really is accepted as like the. defender of the West. over the last 100 years.

Yeah. And so maybe that's and I wonder why. that is. I don't I mean, people can certainly. take issue with any factual. claims you're making. I assume they're all right. They're consistent with what I think. I know to be true. But why do you think Churchill has. been presented. in a way, in the way that he. has? You know. Well, it's it has to do. With what you said earlier, right? Neville Chamberlain versus Churchill. has been the binary. model that has served.

as the chief rhetorical device. for every conflict we've wanted to. get into since then. Yes. You know, the entire Cold War. And then even after the Cold War, in. the global war on terror is. if you appease them, you're Neville. Chamberlain. Hitler's the, rather, Churchill's. the one who saw all along. Where this was headed and was trying. to warn people this, you know, Cassandra. And finally, because. nobody listened to him, the war ended up breaking out. and we were forced to,

like, go stamp out this threat. And now it's a. Much bigger threat. Than it ever would have been if we. just. Put a listing, say, if we had. strangled it in its. Crib and it's justified every. Conflict. You know. Really, since the Second World War, everybody's the new Hitler, right? It's it's. And so that it's a it's. Very valuable in that sense, but. then also. You know, it really did become. the. The founding myth of the of. the global order that we're all. living in now. Right? Because when you think about it, if. you go back to.

think. About like, in Machiavelli's. The Prince, right? And he's, he starts that book out. kind of talking about why he's. writing this book. And one of the things that he says. in there is, you know, Italy is a. bunch of broken up little. principalities and states and stuff. And he's looking over to the west, in the north and seeing countries. like Spain, countries like France. and England. Who like these are these are. Countries that are now starting to. operate on a totally different. scale, like on a national. Scale, First Nation states. And we have got to get it.

Get it, get our act together and. start learning how to act on that, on that level as well. And so that's why I'm writing this. book. It's an instruction manual on. like a call to action kind of. Well. As it goes on in the nation state. starts to put itself together in. the modern era. You know, you you. Get to World. War One and you think about what the. nation state is, right? Like history and to a large extent. global like sort of global event. style. History is governed. to, to to a great degree by.

the military technology that's. prevalent at a given time. Right? So I, I don't think it's a. it's an accident, for example. That. The ancient Greeks had like in. a, a feeling of like citizen. equality. That was unprecedented the world at. the time. And they had the, their. chief combat system was. the phalanx unit. Right. That. Required every man to stand. by his, you know, his fellow. citizen as a unit. And they. That's what their.

Position in the world depended on. people being able to do that. I don't think that's a mistake. Right? I don't think it's a mistake. When you look at other societies. where. Charioteers, you know, really. expensive branch chariots or, when, when you get to, like, the high Middle Ages where the heavy. horse cavalry is just totally. dominant on the battlefield, but, you know, so only the people who can. afford that kind of a weapon system, they're the ones who are going to. rule on the people who don't like. it. They really don't have any means. to to, you know,

sort of express. Their own, political will. And so. As a nation state starts to get put. together, you start to. Have. You start to have military, conflicts and just military buildups. on a scale that nobody's ever heard. of before. I mean, you're talking. you get to this, the First World. War, I mean, millions and millions. of men. And if you want to operate. on that level, if you want to. operate on the level of great. game global politics, you got to be able to put an army of. several million men in the field,

you know, and that's. It's why countries who tried. their. Hand at, at imperialism, like the Dutch and the Belgians, you know, eventually they were just. like, you know, yeah, we're not. doing it. And, see, because they saw that. And so, you know, when you look at. the First World War in the Second. World War, but really the First. World War is like the apotheosis of. the nation state in a lot of ways. Where you have, you know, if you if you think back. To like an old king in the. early modern period or. Even now, forget about that. Look at like Louis the 14th.

The Sun King, right? Powerful as any monarch in Europe, like for hundreds of years, his actual ability to. Reach into the local affairs. of some village and tell people how. to act or what to think. Pretty limited. Very limited. Like we think, you know, because of. movies in TV. That a monarch is sitting on his. throne and he just orders this. and it happens like God saying, let there be light or. Something, head him. Yeah, yeah. And it's just they. didn't. Have that kind of reach, you know,

they had. Influence and they but they had. like, like any modern, individual politician, they had to. work through existing structures and. systems to get their will. Actually carried. Out. And that meant making compromises. And they just didn't have the. Resources to like, you know. Technological resources, but also. just human and financial resources. to get down to the. Granular. Level of control that would become. Common when with the rise of the. nation state. And so you get up to. the point where, you know, when.

the nations face off in World. War One and you have countries. that. I mean, when you look at the. the level of efficient. Mobilization toward. a single cause, you know, fighting the war. How the economy, how the government, everybody. Was on the same page. And, you know, they were fighting. this war as whole societies, like. They they figured out a way. that they could do with Louis the.

14th could never dream. Up. They could mobilize their whole. Society for. War. And that was what you. Had to do if you. wanted to compete on the level of. Germany and France and so. Forth. And so what? Somebody like. Churchill. During the First World War. and probably. Actually the Second World War. As well. Most people, I think, players in the Second World War, what they thought they were doing. was that this was a war between. nation states like World War. One and so on and so forth.

And it was not that we found out. afterwards that it was not that. That there were two. Great military land empires, multi-ethnic, multiracial, multicultural military. land empires, the Soviet Union, the. United States. That and when I say empire, obviously, like we don't think of. the US pre-World War. two in that way very much. But, you know, we didn't start out. with a whole continent under our. control. Right? We started out as 13 colonies, and we we grew through,

a confrontation with and. Centuries long race war. against the natives. Right? I mean, that's that's really. It was a formative. Experience of, of America. and in its early history. And so it's an empire in a way, you. know, not the way we normally like. the like the British Empire, but I. think you can call it that. And, you know, these two. Countries, that thing that. Machiavelli was noticing when. he's looking over at Spain and. France, you actually had like. Germany, for example. There's this idea. That the only reason that they did. Molotov-Ribbentrop was because,

you know, Hitler needed to buy time. so he could eventually invade the. Soviet Union later or something like. that. Not exactly true. I mean, that. Obviously was talking. About the eventual conflict with the. Soviet Union very early in his. career that was there. But by the time you get up to like. 1939, his views are starting to. become more complicated on it, where. he's starting to see the United. States as the chief. The real chief threat. To not just to Germany, but to. Europe, because he saw himself as. the sort of European.

defender of Messiah guy. Right. So and he looks over at Joseph. Stalin and says, you know, a lot of his people kind. of. Thought this way. That this is not an. International communist. movement anymore. Like, yeah, Trotsky has been banned, banished from the country, and his. followers are all dead. You know, they were killed during. the purges of the late 30s. These people are all are all gone. Those are all of the people. Who you know from the very. beginning. After the. First World War, they saw Russia. as the fountainhead of world.

Revolution. And Stalin, he never quite. gave that up. You know, just like. the United States. He saw it as his, as his duty to build up. ideologically aligned allies and so. forth. But if you really look at. what happened in a. lot of the Germans saw it this way, you know, Stalin, what he did was. kind of turn the Soviet. Union into like a national socialist. nation state, really. You know, he kind of brought back. the Russian Empire, and now it's. called communists and stuff. But there's no. Goal to just set off global.

revolution. And then once that happens, the. chips will follow. Where it fall, where they may. They kept inside the Kremlin. They kept all the paintings of. Saint George, the patron saint of. Russia, all the crosses, they they. the whole style appeared. They're there. And I have you don't. I mean, I have nothing good to say. about Stalin. I don't either, but I don't I don't. think it's been mis advertised a. little bit. Yeah, yeah. And when I. Earlier, when I said that there's. one episode that I have done where I. feel like I didn't do my duty to. force myself to understand the. perspective of the perpetrators. It was the one.

That I did about the Soviet. conquest of Eastern Europe after. the Second World War and what they. did in Germany and other places, and. specifically Romania, which, as. far as I can tell, like so far. after, you know, 30 years of reading. history books is pretty much the. worst thing that ever happened. These, these prison experiments that. they ran in Petoskey and other. places in Romania after the. Second World War are. That's. Not family listening, if you really. want to. That the. Soviets did. Yeah. The Soviet Soviet advisers.

were there. It was carried. Out technically by the security and. the and the Romanians themselves. But, but, you know, this was. A it was a program. Being run from Moscow. Right. And it's whatever you're thinking. it is out there. Whoever's listening or watching. this, it's a thousand times worse. And I wouldn't recommend going and. listening to my episode, The Anti. Humans. Unless, unless you're prepared. for that. So I'll just leave it at that. But I'll say like in that one. Like I just couldn't, I couldn't. bring myself to put, I couldn't. put myself in the shoes of.

Of the. People who were doing those things. And I didn't really try. And it comes across much more. polemical than any of my other work. And a lot of people love it because. it does, you know, expose a lot of. The crimes that happened during that. period and stuff. But I think. I think it's hard sometimes. I'll tell you one thing, as a. I'm not a Stalin expert. I don't speak Russian, but I have. read about Stalin my whole life. And one thing that I was very. surprised to learn, that it came. out at right after the, everything collapsed in 91. And a British historian,

a Russian speaker, got access to. a lot of the Stalin archives, the. personal archives. And I was amazed to read. in this book, quarter the Red czar. Amazing book. That is a great book. It is a great book. But the thing that it overturned, I. mean, I'm older than you, so maybe. you always knew this, but growing. up, we didn't. Everyone thought Stalin was this. bloodless technocrat, not a true believer at all. That was Lenin was certainly Trotsky. seemed like a true believer.

Zinoviev. Kamenev. You know, all the guys around him. might have been, but he was not. in your mind reading this, or he was. actually a devout like, religious. level communist, which. either makes him more repulsive. or less depending on. you. I could see it from either. side, but it's definitely not what. we thought he was. And what I loved. about that was your. view of some. It's a small thing, I. guess for most people was a big. thing for me to learn that. But your whole kind of accepted view. of something can turn out to be.

utterly false. Like a lot of history is just. completely fake. And so when you see someone who's. diving in face first with like. courage and honesty, you just. have to applaud. That's why I just apply. Can't wait. To find out what you conclude. We want to announce something big. that we've been working on for. months now. It's a documentary. series called Art of the search. It's all behind the scenes footage. shot by an embedded team. that has never before seen footage. of what it's actually like to run.

for president if you're Donald. Trump. They were there at the Butler. Township assassination attempt, for. example, and got footage that no one. has ever seen before. And it's amazing. Become a member at Tucker. carlson.com to see. this series. Art of the shirt. Where are you, by the way, in this. process? Well, I'm currently working on a. series I'm about. I'm probably going to do two more. episodes on it. On the history of. the American labor movement. It's not a it's not a narrative. history of the entire labor. movement. I pick, certain episodes. They talk about the Battle of Blair.

Mountain in one episode, do one on the the Haymarket affair. And really, it's about. The industrial wars of like, the. late 18th century from, you know, Pittsburgh to Chicago and. everything. I did one on, this. 1968 teacher's. union strike in New York City. That's kind of famous now. Famous. Folks in hell Browns for. And, you know, that was, one that. a lot of my research for the. Jonestown podcast about the great. migration of African Americans out. of the South came in really handy.

Because really what it's about is, you know, the it was a conflict. in, the New York's. political system like that centered. around a school in. Brooklyn, at a time. when, you know, 75% of. the teachers in New York City were. Jewish. And, you know, New York is. It's such an interesting city for. the, you know, for the for the fact. that, you know, it's obviously. this, this multi-ethnic multi. cultural city that over the years. just, you know, was where everybody.

washed up for the most part on our. shores. And from the Irish migrations. to the Jewish and Italian migrations. and everybody that came after that, there it was conflict and people had. to figure out and eventually come to. a settlement of like, how are we. going to live here together? And I'll feel like we are being. represented and so forth. And so you had this city where. again, like today, this sounds. almost. It sounds like a different world in. some ways where, you. know, the teachers were pretty much. all Jews. The transit workers, pretty much all.

Irish. The cops were mostly Irish. The firemen were most of the Irish, most of the construction trade, the dockworkers, things like that. They were all Italians and everybody. kind of. It wasn't something like. that's what they gravitated to. Sanitation, to. The sanitation. And yeah. That that was their. Economic territory. And they had certain neighborhoods. that were theirs. And people kind of knew that. It's not like a, you. Know, a Jew couldn't move into an. Italian neighborhood or vice versa. or something. But everybody knew that this was an. Italian neighborhood, and it was. going to stay that way.

And they'd all kind of come to this. settlement in a natural way, like it. just it was an emergent order. that came over the years. And when, and again, there was conflict at. every stage of that, after the 1924 immigration. law that essentially cut off. European immigration and generally. Your immigration. In general, the cheap source. of labor that industry turned to. were African Americans from the. South. And so you saw over the course about. 40 or 50 years.

About 6 or. 7 million African Americans move out. of the rural south to the northern. and western cities. And it turned out when they. got up there that. They had a lot of the same problems. that they had had previously. But for. You know, various reasons, I think. personally, the fact that, we. were in the post-Second World. War period. And we were in the middle of a. Cold War. That, you know, the. the process of integrating these.

people into the system as one. of several, you know, because this was a great. dream if you read. What what's the book? Nathan Glazer. And it's beyond the melting pot. You know that he wrote. And, they in. a I think they wrote. That in 1971. And what they. Predicted in that book was Moynihan. and Glazer. That's what it was. And they predicted in that book. that, yeah, there's a lot of. problems right now integrating the. African-American and Puerto Rican. populations into the, you know, into. the city. But what we're going. to do, like, eventually, this has.

always happens, happened in the. past. Eventually, it's not going to be. Black and white like it seems right. now. It's going to be Italian and. Jewish and Puerto Rican and. black. And so they're going to take. their place as one of the. ethnicities, like in the sort of. urban, political structure. and social structure we have here. And when they. Look. Back on it in the I think it was. maybe a 2012 edition, they. sort of recognized that that was. obviously a, you know, a prediction that that. did not come true. They, you know, they sort of they.

get into that. And so. But this the teacher strike. Oh, right. This was sort of 1968. was like, first of all, it was, at least in my reading of it, one of. the pretty rare expressions. of mass in open antisemitism. may have been anti-Semitism, of. course, but but but like for real. in American history and it's and it. doesn't seem to be remembered for. some reason. No, it's it's remembered. or misremembered, like right.

alongside the Crown Heights. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Like that. Because, you know, it's one of those. things. Look, I. Lived for a long time in Los. Angeles, right? I used to live in South LA when. those were all black neighborhoods. down there. And you people think back to. the Rodney King riots, or when they. were watching The Fresh Prince of. Bel Air or something, and he would. go visit his friends down in. Compton. And those were the black. neighborhoods down there. Those are not black neighborhoods. Oh, I know. Those are all. Latino neighborhoods. And that transition was not. accomplished peacefully.

You know, there were and there are. there are good studies and write ups. about this, hundreds. and hundreds of random. murders. Oh, yeah. Black people by, Mexican gangs, fire bombings. of apartment buildings. to drive these people out. Right now, you look at. Some drive the East. Bay. That's kind of, you know, if. you look at all. The big cities in California, even, like it up in Oakland and stuff, they're all losing their black. population. And the great migration out of the. South to these cities is actually in. reverse right now in a lot of like,

net, African Americans are moving. back to the South and. they're. Into the internal empire, or just. like away from the coast. Yeah, yeah. Well, that's right. That's what happens like a lot of. the but it's a step by step process, right. They get priced out of. Oakland and San Francisco and they. move to Stockton and Sacramento. Oakland and those places go up to. and they end up moving, you know, further inland. And that's a process. That's been going on for a long. time. But like. When you look at what happened. In in Los Angeles, I mean, again, you're talking about hundreds and. hundreds of random murders, fire. bombings, just not of.

other gang members or somehow I'm. talking about drive bys of other. gang members. I'm talking about just. a random black guy race killing. Yeah, killing people because of the. color of their skin. And if those people had been, you. know, who were doing that, were. wearing white hoods, they would have. called the US Marines and and for. good reason, you know, but it's one. of those things that nobody wants to. talk about because it doesn't fit. neatly into one of our easy. political. So that's what bothers me about the. recording of history. I mean, I. think it what happens matters. Reality matters. And if you find that sort of.

everything that happens not just 80. years ago in Dresden, but things that are happening in. like L.A. County 20 years. ago, if they just disappear. You know, in some cases you can find. them on Google. Like that's a level of manipulation. that's like that's just mind. control. That's that's. really scary. And I think the propagandists. throughout. The 20th century, ever since. the sort of the rise of mass media, have really understood that that's. exactly what it is, you know, especially once it goes on for.

a generation or two and. kids are raised up, and this is what they're being. taught because it. It. It forms. For them. They're there. They're not just their view of the. world. But their view of themselves. Like our identities as individuals. and our identities that we attach. ourselves to collectively are all a. result of the stories we tell. ourselves. Right. And then we here. we were growing up. And so if you. change those stories. All of those things change as well. Okay. So that's a perfect segue to. something. And I'm just itching to.

talk to you about itching to get. your view on. And that leads us back to Churchill. So Churchill is this great hero, defender of the West, savior of the. West, the toughest. man in the in world history. The only reason we're not speaking. German. And he won the Second World. War. Like that's what you ask. anybody. That's just a fact. And yet if I go to. his country, like, regularly. And it's, you know, it doesn't. really even exist in any. recognize where it's totally.

degraded. I try not to go there because it's. so depressing. It's just so sad. It's so broken. It's not the country. of victors. It's the it's a defeated, completely. defeated country that's. subsequently been invaded. And so, like, how did. that happen? How did. right go to Japan and it's a full. of self respect and order and. cleanliness and like it doesn't look. like it lost. Just like, what is. that. Well, I think we ran a. we ran an experiment, that tells us pretty well what that. is. And we didn't know we were.

running the experiment at the time. But you had the Iron Curtain set up. in all the countries behind it, that were not. Exposed to incessant. American world order Western. propaganda for 70 years. They all they don't. Have the same problems. You go to. Hungary. Even a. Place like Poland, which obviously. the leadership class of any of these. countries is, you know, you always. have to be suspicious of them. because, you know, they even. Romania, which is you said, suffered. more than, you know, most countries.

Yeah. And so but those countries. like, they don't mind. And again, the. Tippity top. Leadership class might be one thing. You know, somebody went to the. London School of Economics or. something. But like. NATO money. Yeah. The people have. No problem saying no, this is a. country. This is Hungary. This is a country for Hungarians. This is a Christian country. This is our country. They don't have a problem saying. that. That is not. Something that anybody west. of the Iron Curtain, for the most. part, is comfortable. Loosening. Up a little bit, thank God.

But, you know, the question is. whether it's loosening up too late. You go to. A place like like Britain, go to a place like Germany. I mean, there's no country on planet. Earth that is, has been, subjected to. A more pervasive and destructive. psychological warfare campaign. than Germany over the course of the. Cold War. I mean. These people have very it. just I mean, you really hope. That it's not the case, but you. wonder if.

If there's even the material. that would be necessary to construct. a psychological defense of. their nation, their people. And the lesson that we took. from World War two, and again, this wouldn't have been the lesson. that any of our soldiers who stormed. the beaches in Normandy would have. taken or anything like that. But, you know, the official. kind of court history lesson. Is that. When Europeans start thinking. in terms of group, they're very dangerous. And that process needs.

to be subverted. It needs to be eventually. eliminated, like the possibility for. that to happen again. Just Europeans, not Asians. or Africans. Well. I, you know, I think, well, there's. a lot of elements to that. I mean, part of it is. Part of it is the the. People that were victimized, during the Second World War were not. victimized by, Africans. You know, people were. Obviously Chinese people were. victimized by the Japanese, but. that's a it's a different.

You know, China's China's got a very. powerful immune system that kind of. preserves them as, as. a, as a culture. So does Japan, and so does Japan. And so. That's, you know, there's a little bit, a little bit. Different. But from a Western perspective, I. think it's fair to say, and our. leaders make the case implicitly, that it's really only when Europeans. have a sense of themselves as. Europeans, that the world is in. peril. But everyone else is fine to. do that. Yeah. I mean, you know, that's, they don't see those other people as.

a threat. You know, either because, the people. who formulate these narratives don't. live in those places or they. don't have historical experience. with those people, and so they don't. see them as the same kind of threat. So so Germany is. totally self-hating place. It's a husk. Yeah. It's depressing as hell, though. Also wonderful, in a way. But it's going away. But they lost. At least you could say they lost two. world wars in a row. Yeah, Britain won.

two world wars in a row. And if anything, it's more degraded. than Germany. So, like, just. to take it back to the first thing I. said and I'll shut up and let you. answer. But if Churchill is a hero, how come there are British girls. begging for drugs on the street of. London? And the place is, you know, it's. just there in London. is not majority English now. Like what? Well, the people who formulated the. version of history that considers. Churchill a hero. They like London the way it is now.

You know. And but that's not Victor. That's like the worst kind of. defeat, is it not? I mean, I'm just. confused as. An English. Person who cares about England and. Yeah, absolutely. It is. I mean, it's. It's forget about. Victory and defeat. It's the worst thing that can. happen. You know, if you look at. what's going on over lately in, in England where you're having. riots, you're having. These, you know, sort of. budding. Violent confrontations between. nationalists and the police and so. forth. Which, you know, I think our natural.

we like order, right? Yeah. Like Europeans, we like order, order. And we see things like that. And we have a natural aversion to. disorder to to street. violence, for sure. We might. Be, you know, war might. be necessary, but disorderly mob. violence, things like that, like, immediately make us kind of take a. step back because most of our. experience with those things is. really bad. And at the end of the day, like it. is an unleashing of evil spirits no. matter what the cause or the reason. is. And yet when I look over there at. what the British.

People, some of them are trying to. do. I. I kind of I refused to judge them. for, whatever, for. Doing whatever it is that they feel. they have to do as. their homeland, their ancient. homeland, is being taken. from them, because that is not. something that can be walked back, that is permanent. That is something that ends your. existence as a people. Like, unless you're going to be like. the Jews and, you know, go. off into exile and sort of manage.

to maintain yourself, you and even. the Jews, and restore that. They needed a little spot. Somewhere on. Earth. That was their special place to. develop their culture and to work. things, work out their history among. themselves as a community of people, and the English people are. having that taken from them. You know. The the Irish people. Ireland is on. Track to be minority Irish by like. 2070. And you say, okay, hang on like. A. They never colonized anybody.

B they were. Colonized and like got. The really. Nasty end of that. A lot of the time, you. know, suffered a lot. They fought. For hundreds of years against. Brutal. British attempts to try to. bring them into the British fold and. squash that uniqueness, you know, that they had out there. The British couldn't do it. And the British for a while there. could do damn near anything. Yeah. Okay. And you spent a lot of time trying. to impress Ireland a lot. Yeah. And it was a I mean, not only.

that, it was a, it was a chief. Priority for a lot. Yeah. Bring it to heal you. And you know we have a, we have a, a. bit of a, skewed. View of the British Empire. just because I in there are a lot of. things that are glorious and. wonderful about the British Empire, but the United States, like, we. don't quite understand, like the. Way the, you know, how bad it. was to. Fall on the wrong side of the Empire. because they really treated us with. kid gloves during the revolution, you know, that we. Had half a. Parliament that were on. What they did to the Boers.

Yeah. Exact. Exactly. That's what you know. They could have done that. They created the concentration camp. Yes. Yeah. And they ran a lot of them. during World War two, actually. Yeah. That's another thing. It's actually pretty awful is. Yeah. As soon as the war broke out, Churchill had all of the German and. Italian nationals in. Great Britain all rounded up and. thrown into concentration camps, where they would stay to the end of. the war. This is 1939, and. a huge number of those people were. Jewish refugees who had come over. from Germany to England.

They were just rounded up and thrown. in camps for six years. We also had the opposition party. thrown in prison for the duration. Oswald Mosley and his wife, right after giving birth, you know, spent the duration people died. That doesn't look like democracy to. me. Are you saying that Zelensky is not. running a democracy? I'm saying if you don't have. elections and you're throwing. priests in jail, if you're murdering. people who disagree with you as he. has, you know, you call it, that's like basically a pretty. constant form of government. throughout history. Yeah. It's fine. I mean, it's like less.

barbaric than most forms of. government, actually, through. history. It's not democracy. Yeah. So please don't lecture me. anymore about that. Well, I mean, we've seen. This in the United States, even, obviously a much smaller scale. crisis. Although maybe not. Maybe it is an. existential crisis for the people. who are making the decisions. But ever since 2016. Yeah. Where democracy is great, we love democracy. But that's for normal times. It's not for World War two, right? It's not for when we've got. insurrections going on. And sometimes, you know, you've got.

to take extraordinary measures that. may not be democratic, but it's to. preserved. It's always the excuse or the excuse. of every always. It was Lincoln's excuse exactly. But can I. So the. What's happened to, the UK and Ireland. is not accidental. Is there any evidence that the. people of those countries whose. ancestors have lived there for. thousands of years, or the. indigenous peoples of those. countries. That they wanted this, they wanted to be.

I mean, certainly not. The the majority of the people who. lived there. Right. Obviously, like, you can go. To any Western country the most. just, you know, degraded. cucked country you can possibly find. in the West in the majority of. people there don't want any of that. happening to them. This is something. That has a class element to it. It has, as these countries. have become more multi-ethnic and. multicultural, it has, ethnic, you know, elements to it's. like there's a lot of things that. create a sort of a class.

of people, and it's a class of. people who have most of the. influence in power. Who. Actually do want these things. Because they don't. Identify with the people who are. against it on the ground. And this is something that if you. see unite, you know, we've seen in. the United States, in the West in. general, there was budding already. I mean, I would say personally, it. goes all the way back to the. foundation. But like definitely, you. see in like the 1960s, if you think. of somebody like John Lindsay. Right? John Lindsay was the mayor in New. York for a while, and he was sort. of the quintessential he didn't. grow up like super rich old money.

He was the last Wasp mayor. But he was like, he was. Like that. He was the wasp, right? He's the guy who limousine liberal. The term was invented for 87. Yeah, yeah. And if you look. At the way he. Conceived of himself. And the way that he. In his class, the people who. supported him, the eastern. establishment types and people like. him. Where they sort of drew their. Own sense of self-worth and their. collective identity. Was first. Were better than those white.

people in the South who were. protesting Martin Luther King and so. forth were better than them. Or the. Parents in South Boston who don't. want bussing for their. Own. But then. Right. So as. The after. The civil rights movement kind of. came to a conclusion, in 1965, and the Great Migration was starting. to create a lot of conflict in the. northern cities. Like New York. That idea, the Southerners are. always there. They're always there as a foil for, northern and Western elite, you. know, identity construction.

But it shifted to these ethnic. groups that left, that lived in the. cities, the Jews. Which. Sounds strange today, that like, you know, Wasp. mayor who's publicly. obsessed with social justice would. be against the Jews in, you. know, in a, in a conflict. But he was at the time. And it was because, you know, all these people, the Irish. And the Italians, these people who. think that like, that's their. neighborhood because it's been their. neighborhood for 100 years now. And you know that, everybody in the neighborhood goes.

to a parish church that, they've gone to their grandparents. went to. They have. Internal social structures. and, dispute arbitration. structures and all of these sort of. organic institutions. that that grew up from ground level, that gave them an ability to. self-govern in a way that. made it so they really, like, were. not as dependent on, the state bureaucracy to do these. things for them. Right? They could. do a lot for themselves. And.

And these are the people. Who. Were resisting, you know, the. movement of African Americans into. their communities. When people look back, for example, like when when Martin Luther King. went up to Chicago in 1966. and there was the Marquette Park. riot. To this day. Like it? You can go. You have to go into a. pretty deep. Serious history book about that. period to get the fact that, you. know, everybody sees that is a bunch. of white people who came out. to protest, a bunch of black people. moving or, you know, trying to open. up their neighborhood.

But there wasn't a bunch of white. people. Those were Lithuanian people. It was a Lithuanian neighborhood. that had been a Lithuanian. neighborhood for some time. These are a bunch of people who had. come over here as refugees. and had set up a little community. for themselves, that they didn't. want change. You know, when, that's. a Latino community with a bunch of. art student white art students. moving into it and gentrifying it. in Brooklyn or, Los Angeles. You know, people don't have a. problem saying that they have a. right, you know, to, to maintain.

this community that they've built. for themselves. And I actually kind of agree with. that. Like, I like to when I see. gentrification happening, it's like, you know, I'm sympathetic. It's very, very sympathetic. Yes. The crime thing makes me. look, I'm against I'm against crime, against hurting people, you know, strangers. But the idea that people. of all backgrounds, races, everybody, every human being has a. right to, like, have a cohesive. social network around him and. live the way he basically wants to. without bothering others and.

shouldn't be subject to, you know, abstract social. planning that takes no account of. human beings like, yes, yeah, yes, I'm on this. Yeah. You know. There's this very interesting. Well, actually, you know what? That'll take me off on a whole other. tangent. I want to stick on the. topic you were talking about when. you bring up, like, what's happening. in England, in Ireland. And I think. I think it's hard. For a lot of Americans to really. understand, the tragedy. of what's happening over there for. the simple reason that.

And I'm not. I'm not trying to trivialize. our struggles with similar issues. here in the United States. I just say that they're that they're. different, that, you know, in the. United States, we've essentially. had an unending demographic. turmoil from the very beginning. You know, we fought our revolution. And within. A generation. Most. Of the major cities on the East. Coast were all majority Irish. And this was at a time when. English and Irish. Wasp and Irish was like, you know, these were foreign foreign peoples. To each other, you know, Catholic.

and Protestant. That was still unresolved when I was. small there even. I mean, it went on a while. And so within. A generation, you know, of the. revolution, most of the cities. on the East coast are majority. Irish, or at least huge chunks of. them are super majority Irish, even. if the whole city's not quite. Not to mention it's a lot of. Germans. Although they assimilated to the. wasp majority pretty well. pretty quickly. But then within a generation of. that, just as the Irish are kind of. starting to move out of the slums a. little bit and become. middle class kind of members of the.

society, you start getting a ton of. Italians, a ton of Jews, a ton of. All the eastern, southern and. Eastern. Europeans who start coming in and. you see a repeat of the same. process, a lot of the same problems. The institutions all start to break. down, the schools break down, the. infrastructure breaks down, and they. blame the people coming in because. You get a lot of violence and. revolutions and a. Lot of violence. Organized crime, revolutionary. movements, all those things. I mean, people forget that, you. know, a lot of the lynching victims. in the late 18, early 1900s were. Italians is a famous one. in New Orleans. But there are a lot of famous ones.

And, and so that happens. And then we cut. Off foreign immigration in 1924. But then we start the. Great migration of. African-Americans. Out of the South. You have the Okie migration. out West from, the dustbowl. You have the big hillbilly. migrations out of Appalachia, up. to Detroit and Chicago, those. places. And, so we're just used. to the like the fact that we're. always. Renegotiating our identity here. You know.

We were this, this. British, former British. Colonies that just fought for our. independence. But now we've got to. figure out how to construct a. collective identity that includes. all these Irish people that came in. And like, one of the ways that we've. done that traditionally has been. through war. You know, the fact that there were. so many Irish men who came into the. country and fought on the side of. the Union in the Civil War. If you look at like, I mean, World War Two to a great. degree. I mean, if you think about. the city of Vicksburg, which. didn't didn't.

Celebrate the 4th of July after. it was conquered during the Civil. War, like it stopped celebrating. the 4th of July. And I remember I was watching, the Kenwood, Ken Burns. documentary about Civil War. He mentioned this and he said they. didn't they didn't celebrate. the 4th of July again for like. X number of years and snuffed out my. eggs. I don't remember exactly what. year they were. That was the 63. Vicksburg. Anyway, he said for. X number of years and, and. I thought about it for a second. I was like, oh, that was July 4th,

1944. I was a month after D-Day. And that's what got this place. It was extremely bitter over all. this, you know, to. Raise the the. Flag and celebrate the 4th of July. again. So we've. Used war for 80. Years. Yeah, yeah. And we've used warfare. for that purpose. And that's not an uncommon thing, but it's it's it's one of the, one. of the means that we've done to. unify our people. And as, as, you know, wave after wave of, at. the time, very foreign people.

You know, it's hard to explain. To people today how foreign an. Eastern European Jew was. to a Wasp or an Irish man. or a German American in New York. in, in, you know, 1880. I mean, it's just these. People might as well have been. coming out of the Congo, you. know, and in some. ways even more foreign than that. Because all of. Us, like, we're kind of even if. we've never met anybody from the. Congo, just through mass media and. everything, we've kind of got a more. cosmopolitan view of the world. So we're not. It's sort.

Of familiar in a in a strange. Way, these are people who were. coming from all over the world. And we've all I mean, if you think. about. Like, the 1798 Naturalization. Act. Right. You see a lot of, like, white identitarian types who point. to that because it says. All people, all white people. of. Good character can come. into the United States to become. citizens. And they speak 1798. like they're already thinking in. terms of race in America as a white. country, excuse me, and so forth. And I say, you're not understanding. the historical context of.

of that of that law. That's not to prevent you from. bringing in like half of the. African subcontinent or, you know, the Arab population in the Middle. East or whatever, that was. inconceivable to these guys in. 1798 that anybody would ever do that. or that that could happen. That was not the point of it. And if you really look at the law. and you. Place it in the context of its time, the context of Europe at the time, remember again, Catholics and. Protestants, like the. Different peoples across Europe, they've got two world wars. Still ahead of them. They've got a. Polyphonic war still ahead them,

they're going to be butchering each. other for the next couple centuries. Right. And we said, think about how. just a revolutionary. level of. Inclusivity, this is to say. All you. Europeans. Anybody if you live in Europe. and you're Protestant, you're. English, you're. Irish, you're Catholic. You're Jewish, whatever. You come over here and when you come. over here, you will be accorded. the full. Rights and privileges of a citizen, the same as the richest guy in this.

country. That is a revolutionary. I mean, nobody had ever heard. Of anything like that. It was unbelievably just. open and inclusive. And the reason that they said that. they limited it to, to. free white people was they didn't. want. You know, some southern state, including their, their slaves as, citizens, but not really including. them and kind of gaming the federal. system, getting representation. because they decide to say, oh, all. of our Native American population or. their citizens now, but not really.

allowing them, you know, in. And so that's what they were trying. to prevent, like the idea of. bringing in just. You know, an overwhelming number of. people from what became the Third. World was obviously the farthest. thing from their minds because they. couldn't conceive that anybody would. do something like that. And so but that's the point, is that. this even from. The very beginning, there was a. recognition that we need to be. A radically open country, if for no. other reason. The fact that we've. got a gigantic continent, we've got. to go settle and build up. Right? Because if we don't do it, then these. European powers are circling like. vultures and they're going to do it.

And so we have to get out there and. build this place up. And so, you know, that required a. level of openness that has. transformed the world in one way. So it's just interesting to hear you. say that the point at the time of, of mass migration was to build the. place up. Clearly, the point of it now is to. tear the place down. Yeah. And isn't that interesting. how, you know, it's like, I think the psychologist. Carl Jung said something like. inequality and excess becomes its. opposite. Yes. And exactly right. And it definitely, you know, that. applies to inclusivity or openness.

I mean, I was saying that like, you. know, in the United States, because. of that experience. Of just constant demographic. turmoil, as soon as the Great. Migration petered out in like. 60. Like literally the early 60s, we passed the hard. Stellar Immigration Act and opened. up the floodgates to the Third. World. And that's the world that. we're in now. Right? So it it's just been an. unending wave after wave after. wave of your neighbors. The people you have to negotiate. Politically and, social collective. identity with or changing all.

the time. And that's just. Sort of it's built into the. American understanding of themselves. and how societies. Work in. All of that. Like I would say. That there's only maybe the only. time the United States. Like, really. at least maybe. Like, you could say right after the. revolution, but like. The period, like from 1941, you. Know, right around that. That time up to maybe. The mid-Fifties, when the Great. Migration started to drive. all of the European ethnics out of.

the cities into the suburbs and. stuff like, there was. That period where we almost pulled. it off. We almost pulled off. Constructing a solid. And sustainable national identity. that, you know, obviously, the fly. in the ointment ended up being that. there was 10% of the population who. weren't really included in that, the. African-American population. And that became the sort of. You know, the wedge that allowed, people. To pry apart that. Project in the 1960s. And. And thank you for acknowledging. that was the point of the exercise.

of. Right. And in which. You know, again, not to diminish. You know, especially after going. through, you know, the Jonestown series and spending so. much time reading about the history. of African-Americans in the country. And I, you know, I. Grew up around in African-American. neighborhoods, mostly in, around. different places. I'm I'm more sympathetic than most. People who are as far right. on a. Lot of political issues as. I am to the plight of people who. live in the ghetto. I mean, I. couldn't agree more. No, but that's kind of the point.

that I'm making. If the point of the civil rights. movement was to, uplift black people, which I would. be completely for, then Selma, Alabama would be a great place and. so would Jackson, Mississippi, and. so would little Rock, Arkansas, and. all the kind of holy sites. of that period. And in fact, they're all far worse. than they were in 1960. So, like, what was the point of. that? Clearly, if the point of BLM. was to help black people again, I. could kind of be for that. But I mean, the point of it. So there's two. Element there's two answers to that.

question, really. Right. One is there are people out there. who. Absolutely saw it as, a wedge issue to. Support. Revolution in one sense or another, you know, disintegration of the. country. You saw this in the 1960s. Tom Wolfe's written about it. But a lot of people have written. about how, you know, you remember back in 2008 how. when, Obama started to rise. to prominence and. a lot of the older Republicans were. thrown out. He's a community. organizer. He's a community. None of the younger. People there just didn't land with.

younger people at all, because they. had no frame of reference for the. 60s and 70s and stuff. They didn't know. What that. Meant, that you literally had these. Vast government programs who. were just handing out money to. revolutionary organizations. So people who were going out and. planning and. Organizing riots. At City Hall. Oh, 100%. Like that happened in New York, like. a group who was not like. they got some funding through. three different kind of, you. know, degrees of. Separation from some government. Program. They were literally just.

Basically an. Agency. Of the New York City government. They were literally just fully. funded. Their leaders were. Appointed. They're paying for Wall. Street. Gangs and these. Yeah. That too. And this group went and held. a protest at, at City Hall, invaded City. Hall, trashed the place and. everything. And this is a government. funded organization. So that's what people had in mind. And it didn't land with the younger. People I noticed back then. So you have those people, you know, you have the people. Who, at Columbia. in the 1960s who wrote all the.

papers that led New York and then. other places to, you know, to embrace bussing at. schools and to embrace, expansion of the welfare, you know, programs. And they were very open about I. mean. It's really. Crazy how these two professors at. Columbia who. Were sort of the, like, the. Expansion of, welfare in New York. under James Lindsay was kind of. their brainchild. They wrote the paper and the. articles about it and everything, and they were brought in as consultants. once the decision was made, they're. literally writing in their papers. If anybody at City Hall had cared to.

read them. They weren't saying this is going to. make poor people less poor, and they directly say, what this is going to do is it's. going to increase. Tension. Between the lower class, lower. classes in the middle class. It's going to drive a wedge, because. there's going to be like an. unavoidable. Racial angle to this, because it's. going to be transferring. Resources from the, you know, European. Ethnic groups in the city over to. African Americans and Puerto Ricans. And this is all good, because this. is going to start to create.

That tension that we need. It even in even say they. Said that out loud. Yes they were. They wrote about it in a, I can't remember which magazine it. was at this point, but it was, it. was like The Atlantic or something. It was like that Promotable. magazine. It was like a summary of. their academic findings. Right? That and these are the guys who. they were the impetus for the. expansion of the welfare programs in. New York. They were brought in to. City Hall to like, explain how to. Implement it and stuff. They even say. That a positive. Benefit of this is it's going to.

make. All of these. People more dependent on the. Government. You know it's going to make them. wear. So I mean, you have that angle. of it, right? You have. That side of things in those people. Who do. They know what they're doing and. they want to tear this down. I think that, you know, a lot of. Ways they're the drivers of a lot of. it. But a lot of people are the one, you know. The ones being led, a lot of them. It's just a lot of white people who. use it to feel good about them. So there's no doubt. And and they don't have.

Know them all. Yeah. They're able to insulate themselves. from the consequences of their. decisions in a way that, you know, and this is, again, to. take it international again. You go over to Europe. Yeah. It's kind of what's. Going on is, you know, if you're the. leader of Hungary, like Viktor Orban right now. Like you're the leader of Hungary, if you're the leader. Of, like, Germany. If you're the leader of Great. Britain. Yeah. Like, you're, you're we're. we're still at the point where, like, you still not. In England, we're not. But like, we're you still have to be German to.

like. Get elected. You know, we can't. like, take it so far yet. that we've. Detached it completely from like. some illusion of, of. The fact that this. Is a nation state that's. self-governing. But really this is an international. super class. You know, that they identify much. more laterally with people of their. own class across borders than they. do with the people in their own. countries. And, you know, that. Mentality is what makes it possible. for them to do the things, that they're doing to the people.

that they have power over. So what at this point, you describe what's happening to. Europe as the worst thing, not. just the UK, but maybe especially. the UK, but also Germany, Spain, Ireland, as. you noticed, really, everything. west of Central Europe, of Hungary, is increasingly not European. So what does that trend continue. or stop? Or what happens. While. I mean, that's going to be up to the. Europeans. I don't.

I say this with. Not without pride. at all, but I think that. I think that as long as the United. States remains the dominant power in. the world and the dominant power and. European geopolitics in. a lot of places like like Germany, still a significant factor in their. domestic politics. I think that we are very negative. influence on that front. Yeah. I mean, it's so interesting to. watch, a Google. like an Apple bomb become literally. hysterical, like shaking.

with rage and in a way that. people with no self-control do. When Viktor Orban says stuff like, well, you know, I just don't. want to admit like a million. non Hungarians into my country, you. know, and they go, they go crazy. Yeah. I mean, you look at how they. Respond to somebody like Orban and. like they would color revolution. that dude in a second if they. thought they could get away with it, if they. Didn't think it. Was Orban. Well, he's hardly like. a right wing praise. Yeah. It's like very moderate and. kind of like liberal in an 80. That's probably the only reason they.

don't trade is they know that like. his chief opposition is far to the. right of him. So that's probably why they don't do. it. But. Well he's like the least extreme. world leader I've ever met. Yeah. It's funny. It's like it's I get a similar. sense from Mr. Putin in Russia. where, you know, he's a hard man. You don't drag Russia out of its. state in the 1990s without being a. hard man. But it's a it's probably, hoping for a little too much. That whoever follows him up. You know, if we. Were to do something that would end. his rule that whatever would come.

next would be beneficial to. Us. So Trump, Orban. and Putin, yeah, I can. say this is my perception of all. three of them, is that none. of them is particularly ideological. All three are pretty sincere. nationalists, not like crazed. ideological nationalists, but just. sort of want to do the best for. their country. None of them is like a religious. nut, and none of them is like, especially right wing. They're all in, you know, in the. 1980 456.

context, they would be sort of. moderate, maybe conservative. Democrats, liberal Republicans. Like, they're not they're not at all. what people claim they are. Yeah. Well, I mean, you know, the post-World War. Two order is really. Defined by the fact that, you know, after Nuremberg, it really became effectively illegal. in the West to be, like, genuinely. right wing, like the things we call. right wing. I mean, it's all flavors. of liberalism, basically, of course. Right. And like, if you go back. and read pre-war conservatives,

pre-war right wing writers. In, in Europe, like. Literally in a lot of places it. became illegal to be that way. Right. And here again, it's not quite. illegal, but. We have control mechanisms. that are almost. As if U.S. government had a lot of. people to prison over the years for. their political use a lot. That's true. And, that's like. a defining aspect of the postwar. European order. Right. And as long as that order. remains in place and remains a. dominant factor, it's going to be. very hard for them to escape this. cycle. And I want to be clear, too, when I. say like that, it's the worst thing.

that can happen. I don't mean that. Well, now you have to live next to. these people who don't look like you. or who, you know, speak differently. That's nothing to do with that. I get it. You know, you're. talking about a people. And again, this is why I spent so. much time on on why it's. harder for Americans to kind of. really understand this is because. of our historical experience with. just demographic turnover. Right. We kind of have this idea. even though we're being pushed to. our limits right now, you know, and. you're really starting to see that. because of the.

The ideological forces, and the cultural forces that are. making it much, much harder to. swallow and digest the current, the current crop of, new immigrants. since 1965. Much harder to assimilate for. various reasons. So we're approaching our limit here, but. Still, we still have this kind of. idea. In America that, you. know, yeah, these things are going. to happen, and then we'll figure it. out and renegotiate and kind of. America. Will yeah, we'll. Be different. But, you know, in another generation.

or two, more change. will be happening. And that's just, you know, the dynamic of the United. States. And so we always have this. sort of feeling that in terms of our. collective identity, like we'll. figure it out. You go to a place like, yeah, I mean any European nation. where this is and this is a people's. ancient homeland, and there's. actually such thing as, you know, an Englishman, there's such thing. Is that. Like, there's, you know, an. American is something that, again, the definition of it changes. With. Every generation. And it's always been that way.

The definition of an Englishman has. never changed, and it never will. change. And those people, the English. People, not for over a thousand. years. Not since 1066. Right. And so in those people, are going, they're in the process. right now. Of forever. Losing the only spot. of land that they have on this earth. that is dedicated to the flowering. and the preservation of the English. people. Like the only in. It's a tiny little spot they're not. in for the Dutch. It's true for the Spanish.

It's true for the Germans. It's true for the Belgians. It's true for every Western European. nation. So why not have, Nuremberg. trial for the people who did that? I don't understand. I mean, that's such a crime. Well, we have to win first. Yeah. No, but I think it's important. to say. Oh, wow, that that's a crime. it's against. It's an. Inconceivable. To millions of people. If you go back. To again to bring up, like, Louis. the 14th or any powerful monarch, they never would have dared imagine. that they could do that to their. people without getting their head.

cut off. They wouldn't have dared imagine. that they could just replace. their people with, you know, people. from a different continent, different religion, different land, just to overwhelm them, to. make their own people a minority in. that country. For whatever reason, ideological, you know, whatever it was, they just. it would they they wouldn't imagine. that they had the. right, the power, the ability to do. that. You know, and. I, I said something to you yesterday. when. We were, having dinner, that. I would probably feel somewhat. differently about this if it was.

a situation where, you know, over. the last eight. Generations of English. People, of British people, that. they had just sort of like gradually. brought people. In from around the world. And over. The course of 200. Years or 300 years, they had just. transformed the demography of their. island into something. unrecognizable. Because you could look at that and. say, well, you know, I don't. necessarily think that's the best. idea for them or, you know, I don't. like the changes that are being. made. But hey, the English people, they made this. Decision over the course of. Two. Exactly. It's like their food.

I won't eat their food. It's disgusting. But they like it. and that's okay. But this. One generation decided. that they had no responsibility to. any of the people who came before. them, and they have no. responsibility to any of the people. who are coming after them. They are going to. Permanently, radically. Irreparably transform. their society in ways that. they know hurt the majority of the. population. They've immunized themselves from, you know, at present, but that.

they know. Are not welcome. And are harmful to the majority of. the people that they rule over. And one generation of people decided. that they had the right to do that. And and it's the postwar generation. It's the generation born in 1946, between 1946 and 1964. That's who did that. You know, so it's hard to escape the. obvious conclusion. And I suspect this is part of what's. driving your current project. That war didn't just redraw. borders, but. it it changed the world in ways. that are still unfolding and that.

whose like profound nature we're. only now beginning to appreciate. Is that right? Sure. I'm a I'm a big. fan of the writer Rene Gerard. Right. He talks about, he's got this. whole big theory about the origin of. human religion and, sacrificial. ritual and stuff. But putting aside, like, his, his broader speculations. about the origin of religion, one of. the things he talks about is. If you look through the. The myths of every society. you can pretty much think of. throughout history. If you look at, like the national.

origin stories of. any nation or people that you can. think of. It is almost without exception. And it may be without exception. that there's blood at the beginning. of that story. There's in its frame. because it's a sacred story. It's framed as sacrificial blood. right now. Sometimes, like he'll. give. Examples of that is. True. He'll give examples of. Sometimes, you know. There's a like his his basic. Theory, right, is that when a. society finds itself in a time. of tremendous turmoil,

and it may. Be. Just. Disunion, you know, or like people. can. Feel like we like we have right now. since like 2015. or. However long it's been. There's just this. Tension where people kind. of. And moderate people, regular people. that you for that aren't typically. political, right. And left for that matter. Everybody kind of has this feeling. that. This. Can't just keep going the way. it's going. Like, you know. We're. Approaching some sort of a point. where decisions are going to have to.

be made, confrontations are going to. have to occur, and a decision. is going to have to be made because. there's just too much ambivalent. energy pulling us in every. direction. People feel it. in their daily lives. And, you know, and so. that starts to happen to a society. And, he points. to. You all these. Examples throughout history and. ancient mythology, right. Where I'll talk about. how there's some problem that. Was, you know, a plague is, is plaguing Thebes. And, you know, whatever.

example you want to give, and. they find the scapegoat person. for this. And, you know, Jonah. being thrown overboard into the sea, you know, to calm the storm. And what do you know? We found the culprit. We found the perpetrator, the one. who had, like, brought this curse. upon the city because of his own. private sin or whatever it was. And we got rid of that person, and. now everything is actually better. And now the plague went away and the. storm stopped and something. And so what Gerard says. is, this is this is a very.

Interesting insight, I think, because he says. What these all are, these are post. hoc apologies for what. these people did. You know, they're looking back. And saying that, you know, this person who we. murdered. That a we had to do that. But then there's another little. weird. Dynamic where that person sort of. becomes deified, because at the end. of the day, they did have the power. to. Restore order and. Peace to the society, to make the. plague go. Away. And there's also a. Sort of ambivalent feeling, because. somewhere in there they do know that.

they murdered, you know, murdered. this person as a scapegoat. And, so. It's so he gives an example, by the. way, of like obviously talks about. the Christian story, the. crucifixion. And he says, you have a. time like. Where this is like a, you know, Jerusalem was full of. revolutionary ferment. There were, you know, there were. There were rebel leaders. And riots. There were messiahs. cropping up saying that they were. going to lead a resistance against. the Romans is a very, very, very. tense time. And the community,

the Jewish community in Jerusalem, was able to sort. Of you go through this process. of uniting around. The need to eliminate this victim, who, at least at present, is like, responsible and is and emblematic. of all of the, the insane, the mounting insanity. that's sort of engulfing us all. right now. And the difference, though, in why. Christianity is what it is like, you. think about the idea that we have. the cross as our symbol, which is so strange to people who. are not Christians. You know, it's like.

for people today, you would have to. think about like for the, for the, for the visceral sort of. Way that somebody in the Roman world. would have witnessed, that would. have seen that it would be like your. religious symbol was like a corpse. hanging from a noose. Exactly. You know, or a meat hook. or. Yeah, right. And so, like, that's what they would. see. That's kind of. Crazy when you think about it like, wow, what is going on there? Like you're. Your. God came down. and he was murdered. And tortured, put up on a cross. And that's like your sacred symbol.

of him. You're not trying to forget. that part of the story or sort of. pretend that that is the story. Very strange. Right? And it's because. This process that every myth, Gerrard says, was based on. throughout history that you see. apologized for and rationalized in. every one of these myths. There were people who were. Following Jesus who refused to go. along and they said, no, no, no, no, no. He was innocent and. you murdered him and they. Refused to back down from that. You look like in the. Book of acts, when Stephen gets. martyred. They freak out and stone him.

Not when he's making doctrinal. points. It's when he gets to the places you. murdered him. He accuses them of murder. And they stone him for it. And you had these people who. Were willing to die for that. Know they were. Willing to stand with the victim. Of. You know, this mob attack of this. scapegoat attack and die with him. if necessary. Because, you know, to a Christian. like, that's what martyr to means. It's different than like, what a. muslim means by usually. Right. You go to Warren. Diane Warren, you're a martyr, like.

in the Muslim world, which is fine. Like they have their way of looking. at things. But to a Christian, it. Doesn't mean you're dying for an. idea, dying. For Christ, it. means you're. Willing to die with Christ. If you see a mob picking. Up stones and surrounding an. innocent victim. You're not going to slink away. You're not going to pick up stone. And and if you do, then, you know. Then you're. Yeah, you're making an irreparable, sort of irrevocable choice. At that point, you were going to. stand with that person.

Against the mob, even if it means. that you die with him. That's what it means. And if. everybody does that, then you have a. transformed society, and the kingdom. of God is here. And so as a counterexample, Gerard uses, a holy man, first. Century, late first century, early. second century, called the. Apollonius of Tyana. And he was a pagan holy man who. they constructed a biography for him. that is essentially the same. as Jesus. Virgin birth, born in. a manger. 12 disciples.

Eventually died and life was brought. back to life and like, so it's like. It's it's a it's a clear, like, ideological. Refutation of this growing Christian. myth that's starting to take over. the pagan world. And one of his most famous miracles. that he performed. Was there was a. Plague that was engulfing the city. of Ephesus. And they nobody knows. What to do. And so they call up. Apollonius of Tyana. You got to help us with this plague. And so he goes up there and he says, okay, I'll help you. But you have to agree. Ahead of time. You do exactly what I. tell you to do. He say, okay, great, just help us.

And so he leads the. Community to this town square, and there's this. Old beggar. who. Is. You know, raggedy clothes, filthy, no teeth. He's just, you know, destitute, broken, like old beggar. And he tells the people around. He says, now pick up stones. Kill that man. And at first they're like, I don't know about this award. And he's like, you want a plague to. continue or not kill that man? And so one stone flies and.

as soon as one flies to fly, then. they're whole thing. And so they. cover and they stone him to death, and he's covered with like a cairn. of stones, essentially. And as they're stoning him. His eyes flash red and he buries. his. Teeth and they realize it's a demon. And so they finish him off, and at. the end they clear away the stones, and what they find is this giant. frothing at the mouth like dog demon. thing. And then the plague goes. away. And when Gerard says, or. he doesn't put it this way, because. this is a little too provocative for. him, but I'll put it this way.

What you're reading there is. the story of the. Crucifixion. As it would have been. Written from the perspective of the. Pharisees. That's what that. Is. You know, of course he was. Because like, here's the. Crazy thing. Is it's not they're not. Imagining. That after they kill that guy, that everything's getting better. It does get better, because all of. these people who were ready to just. tear each other apart yesterday, once they all came. Together around. That guy, that's the guy.

who's. Responsible for all this, and we all. came together to commit this crime. against him. We're all in this together. In a way that we weren't before. There's catharsis and then unity. Yes. And so it actually does. work in a very perverse way. And that is the now, of course, it. doesn't last. And eventually you. have to go through that cycle again. That's why human sacrifice. continues. That's that's what Gerard. said. Abortion. Be happy in that Christianity. is the answer to all that. And it's why that, you know, you can. look and show similarities. between, you know, ISIS, Horus,

Osiris and all these various. things. Yeah, sure. Like there's structural. Similarities in other myths. To certain aspects of the story. Whatever. But at a fundamental. level, they are. they are. Not just different, they are. Radically opposed. They are 180 degrees deeper. Right. And and it's also possible that it's. not just a function of human. psychology, but that there's also. a, an element from the outside. acting upon people. There is maybe you are appeasing the. gods or the demons actually for a. short time. Yeah. I mean, that's it. You know, most.

People come to me for. History stuff, so I don't usually. dive into that, but occasionally I. do. And my more tolerant, subscribers, they, you know, they. say they enjoy it, so. But yeah, that's. So when can just. tip. Tie a bow in the World War Two. project. For the reason I keep forgetting. This is probably the same reason. you're doing it. I think it's like. it's central to the society. we live in, the myths upon which. it's built. I think it's also.

the cause of. like the destruction of Western. civilization and. these lies. And so I just very much. look forward to to. your honesty on this question. When does this come out? I think I'll probably be ready to. put out the first episode in maybe. six months or so, because the. I've got another big, long episode. I'm doing on, the history. of the labor movement wars, where. it's. It's a great story about,

basically a big. War that took place between, the Mafia and the American Communist. Party over control of the Hollywood. unions. It's a fascinating story, a lot of. larger than life characters and. stuff. So I'll finish that up, and. then I'll start wrapping up my. research and start moving on to. that. Can I say real quick, too? Because, I did the thing, you know, your interview with Mr.. Putin, I think, probably prepared. you for interviewing me because we. both do the same thing. Like you ask me something about. World War. Two, and pretty soon I'm talking. about Apollonius of Tire. I could tell you about the ruse.

And so, I can't. help myself. That's, you know, you. either love it or hate it. That's what I do in my podcast, too. But, you know, I think that World. War Two is a founding. myth. And that Girardi, in a sense, for. us. Yeah. If you think about, like, just the. strategic bombing campaigns, the. ethnic cleansing of the Germans. after the war, what the Soviets did. to East Germany after the war, just. everything that hap that we did to. To to. Win that conflict. I mean, these are things that. Or even the things that or maybe.

especially the things we did after. we win. Right, right. And so we do those. Things. Nurnberg, the farce of Nuremberg and. the whole. War. And that's just it. I think that Nuremberg, like, is. that sacrificial ritual. And I might mean that literally, but. I'm not. Married to it. If people don't want. to take it literally, they don't. have to. But, you know, but. I probably do. And I think it was that sacrificial. ritual that was the founding event. of the current global order. It's it brought us all back. together. It told us who the bad. guys were. Why they. Are.

By, in a binary sense, different. from and opposed to us, which makes. us the good guys. And now we can. All. Again, you. Know, Vicksburg. celebrated the 4th of July. But I do think there's something. else going on, because, look, I, I think a lot of what we hear. about World War Two is like, I've. agreed with everything on bases, much less knowledge than you have. it. But all of your conclusions are. consistent with mine. But I'm totally happy to say the. Nazis were bad. I think they were. I'm totally happy to say the United. States was the, you know, most. virtuous player among the.

three. But you're not talking about a. historical event. You're talking. about a myth. Go, go tell a muslim that, yes. Muhammad is a great guy. He did a lot of great things. But. And then see the reaction. Everything comes after. But. Right? No, you're totally right. I just can't get over the fact. that the the west. winds. And is completely destroyed in less. than a century. Looks like the West was. conquered. The rest of the West was. Conquered by the United States in. the Soviet Union. Okay, but I mean, putting the United.

States in the West, right? Somehow the United States and. Western Europe won. That's the conventional. understanding. And both have now. look like they lost a world war. So, like, what the hell was that? Like, there's something very, very. heavy. Yeah. I mean, it's all the things. that we have been talking about. And probably. Some things that, you know, we only talk about privately, but. We can see the results of it. I mean. Yeah. So that's that's it. So the real.

Question is if they were trying to. achieve that destruction that you're. talking about, if they if they were. trying, they couldn't have done it. more directly or more effectively, you know. And so, there are trends in forces. There are things that drive people, you know, like incentives. to drive people that they're not. aware of. There's a lot of things going on. But if. They had been doing it. intentionally. There are a lot of incentives that. drive people that are not aware of. Boy, that is so true. and worth well, in your business, I. think it's really important to. remember that. But for all of us,

it's important to remember we're not. quite sure what drives us. For other people, sometimes. It's. A value. A history in a lot of ways. is we have the benefit of hindsight. And, you know, one of the things. that you find I found. this again on pretty much every. single topic that I've covered. Even the labor movement. Like ones that I'm doing now where. I'm like, especially back in the. old days, you know, before it became. big labor. Like I'm a fierce. partizan of the labor movement. back in the late 18. Really big time. I totally agree. And so I expected. Going into it like this is just. going to be like a big, you know,

screw the bosses. Like, you know, pro-union pro. everything kind of. And I. Am still pro-union pro. everything on on that. Side. But. It's made me be able to see where. the bosses. Were coming from and what. They thought they were looking at. And if you take that any. historical topic, any. historical topic, if you allow. yourself. To be open about it. You know. I have gotten. an email. I got an email back in. 2017. 2018.

From an active duty Israeli soldier. who was serving actively in the West. Bank, who told me that he heard. my Israel Palestine series. and that it opened up his. You know. His understanding of. how things did look to the other. side and how the history was. understood from the other side, and. that it. Affected the way he. Interacted with people on a daily, bit Palestinians on a daily basis at. his checkpoints and things like. that. And it's because, if you will in. all praise. To that guy, you know, good for him.

Because that's a tough thing to. Do. You know, especially when you're. enmeshed in it like he is. But if you allow yourself to be open. and look at almost. Anything, honestly, what. you find is you. You end up with. At least a certain amount of. sympathy or understanding for almost. everybody. Involved. And totally. And that's the only perspective. from which you can see the truth. I mean, I used to say to reporters. at work, for me, as I'd be assigning. stories, I would say, you know, you. don't get to write a story about.

your girlfriend or your mom because. you're blinded by love, but you're. also not allowed to write a story. about someone who you hate. Like, because hate is irrational. You know, strong dislike, disagreement, disapproval all. allowed, encouraged, in fact. But hate blinds you. And if you don't see the person as a. person, you're not going. to write about him accurately, like. people are. Fellow human beings, however evil. they are. Right. And you see this with like in good. Novelists versus mediocre. Not right. Like you think of somebody like.

Like a great writer, like good. prose, right? Like Jonathan Franzen. Right? He's got this one book. What book was it? I can't remember the title of it, but it's it's this sort of like. urban rural. Book where the. New York City, you know, cosmopolitan guy goes back to visit. his family for Christmas in the. country. And so France. is a great writer. Okay. You can develop characters. if. This the character that's from New. York richly developed. He deeply understands that man. And you can tell by the way he. writes it nothing but caricatures.

and stereotypes for his family. members back, you know, and. it's because he just can't step into. their shoes and understand them. And they're like. Screaming racist epithet. smoking math or something. It was just. Hokey and like. You know, kind of a. like a just. A hallmark card version of what you. would expect those people to be. like. It just was not. anybody who's been around people. like that or would've been people. like. That would just I mean, you. literally. Laugh at it, and this is a great. writer. But if you can't. Put yourself into the shoes of the. people you're writing. About, at least to the point where.

you. Can humanize. Them, you don't have to say like, oh, I could see if I was stolen, I. would have done that too. It's not what it's about. It's can you at least like, can. you get yourself to a place. Where you can see how a person in. that position at that time was. seeing the world. And the factors that. They were taking into account when. they were making their decisions. And now you have people out there. who are Jeffrey Dahmer. I'm not talking about people like. that. You know, those people who are. pathologically broken, psychotic. You know, you think of a world. leader like Idi Amin and even. Mao to a certain degree, who I.

consider. Like much less like. Stalin than he is, like somebody. like Idi Amin, in other words, just. like a a child like. psychotic, you know, like a true. psychotic. Like, who enjoyed killing. Yeah, yeah. And, I mean, so you. have those. People, and I'm not saying you. should figure out how to identify. with those. People. Those people are operating on a. different program than you are, that you're not going to be able to. step into and understand. But most people are not even. the even the monsters in the world. The people there are not.

You know, there. Are people who zigged when. you would have zagged. In over the course of a whole. lifetime of making, you know, different decisions ended. up in a radically different place. You know, there are brothers and. sisters. Siblings who. one of them ends up a drug. Addict and a porn star, and the. other one is an engineer and a. family man or something like. they grew up in the same household. That happens. But they respond to the things. that confront them in life in. different ways, and those things. start to add up and eventually gain.

a momentum of their own. And pretty soon, unless you, you know, unless. You it's. Very easy to get caught up in that. and let that rule you. And that's what happens, in most, you know, most historical. events, because most historical. events are about groups, you know, they're prominent. individuals, but ultimately they're. about groups of people. And so, you know, the averages. tend to tend to win out over time. So last thing, for people whose appetites have been.

whetted to. To experience what you know, the history that you produce. Where can people find this. series, your labor series? Your Israel Palestine series? You know, how can they hear this? Sure. So, my main podcast is. the Murder Made podcast. Are we spelling martyr made. Ma tr. mad? I think when, Joe Rogan. and Dave Smith were talking about or. knows when Josh Barnett was on.

there, my buddy Josh, they were. talking about it, and Rogan had. never heard of it at the time. And he called me. His name's. Marty Ahmadi. So but yeah, martyr. made, martyr like Allahu. Akbar. Made like a made in America. And, those are my long form. history podcasts. And they're found where? ITunes, Spotify, wherever. you want to look for them. They also they appear on my Substack. as well. The, the Substack is where I do. a ton of subscribers only content.

Once you get done with the countless. hours of longform history podcasts, there are. 50. 60, maybe 70 more. podcast episodes behind the paywall. on Substack, along with. I mean thousands of pages of. essays, series and things like that. where it kind of get deeper. into the subtopics and just. tangential topics that I would like. to talk about in my main podcast, but just can't quite fit them in and. keep the narrative. On to your main podcast has no. advertising?

No. So total revenue to you. Four years of work is right around. zero in that range. For the podcast itself. Yeah, the podcast itself. I just think that's amazing. We're at dinner last night. I'm. like, you're you're see what took. me five years to do this? I said, you know, how do you I'm. sorry to be vulgar and like a. capitalist about it, but like, how, you know, how do you pay your. mortgage? What do you make on that. podcast? Like? Nothing. Yeah, well, the podcast. Is an advertisement, right? People listen to them, they like. them. And then they find out that I. have a subscriber in TV.

We do a tease. It's about 30s long. There you go. Seven hours. So, you know. So you're, Substack also murder. maid? Yes. And that's subscribe. dot murder Macomb. And it has to be that because if you. go martyr made substack.com. Elon kills comics. algorithm. So, subscribe to Martyr Macomb. I do another podcast with my friend. Jocko Willink, who's a retired Navy. Seal commander. A lot of people have. heard of, we do one called The. Unraveling.

And, how often? Well, lately, not as often as we. should. We've been having trouble. making our schedules meet up, but. we've got 40 some episodes out at. this point where we talk about more. current historical topics. Sometimes we get into politics, like our last one was on, deinstitutionalization and the kind. of the fallout, the homeless crisis. that's, you know, partially resulted. from that. So we get into all those. things, you get to hear, you know. Like, like a hardened warrior, like. Jocko. Comment on. mental health crisis, for example.

So that's it's it's a lot of fun. Darryl Cooper. Murder made. Thank you. Thank you for this. conversation and for your addition. to the sum total of knowledge. Really appreciate it. It's always fun. To watch the rest unlock our entire. vast library of content. You can visit TuckerCarlson.com. and activate your membership today. in the name of free speech. We hope you will.