Curt Mills: Trump Can Save America or Wage Another War, but He Can’t Do Both. Here’s Why.

So it's amazing to me that. over 20 years after the Iraq war, its architects and supporters are. still not fully in control of. America's foreign policy, but. certainly influential in it. And it's shocking to me. that two months after Trump's. landslide victory. A race in which he ran against the. neo cons. The neo cons are still brazen enough. to try and influence and sabotage. his nominations.

We are days, but less than a week before Tulsi. Gabbard hearings. Where are we. in the below the radar. war between permanent. Washington's national security. establishment, the neocons, and the. incoming Trump administration?

I think it's unclear. So as of this recording. ten months ago, Mr. Hegseth, the. defense secretary, was just. confirmed on the 50 vote. hacks. That's interesting character, I believe, a former colleague of. yours. Yes. He appears to have done a bit of a. conversion on his foreign. policy beliefs. And the best evidence of that is. the people that he's picked so far. So his cadre is the people that. will. Survive, I. Suppose what they're so what you're. this is relevant to people who know. Pete Hegseth from.

clips on X of him from eight. years ago saying things that. would lead you to believe. He's a pretty stout neocon. Yeah. But okay, so that's. what you're referring to? Yeah. I mean, I think I think the. available evidence is that he is. like a circa ten. years ago was a pretty conventional. Republican. Yes. And he has changed his life in more. ways than one. Yeah. So he is a question mark. But the early evidence is the. people that he has chosen to. surround himself are stark. departures from.

the man from ten years ago. And so that's a big deal. And especially it is a big day, especially in a place like the. Pentagon. Yes. Which is hard to control. Yes. And wants no change under any. circumstances except an annual. increase in number of four star. general. It's the largest bureaucracy on. earth. It is. And it exists to serve itself. It's got a pretty abysmal record of. winning wars, a pretty great record. of spending money. It desperately needs reform. And you're saying that based on the. personnel choices you think he's. making, he's now the defense.

secretary, by the way, as well, right? Yes. That he is like sincerely. on board with Trump's foreign. policy. Yeah. I mean, he did not need to. make these picks. I don't think he didn't make these. picks to get confirmed. I don't think he needed this right. to win any senators. He is courting, I think, minor controversy now, which is why. we're having this meeting. He did not need to do this. It was it was a move, conviction and belief. and principle in his.

early days in office. Very even. So give us an example. Give us him what you're talking. about. Sure. There's going to be this. Michael Domino figure who will have. the Middle East portfolio. He has been advised throughout the. process by another figure named. Daniel Coldwell. These are both, you know, people. in their 40s or 30s, you know, basically the millennials. Yes. Who are veterans of the global war. on terror. They're very much in the. So they fought in that. Yeah, Dan did.

Yeah. And Michael was a CIA. agent. So, yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's these that these. are the guys that were hunting down. IRGC, Iranian Revolutionary. Guard Corps people and. the Forever wars that Trump. and Vance ran on. reforming and ending, etc., etc.. And so, you know, they're. very much in the Vance mold. of we weren't they're. not really sure what the point was. And we want to. roll back from that somewhat. I think you might have heard this.

message from Mr. Trump every. once or twice in the last ten years. So these I don't. know. Do we know? I know. I know. Caldwell, who I think of as a man of. genuine integrity, high intelligence. and principle committed. to his country. I think he's proven that. Yeah. I mean, honestly, he's like a. wonderful person, but he's being attacked by people. who never served with a. long, unbroken track record of. destroying America as somehow. anti-American.

Yeah. How does this work? Yeah, I mean, I think that the. tactics are pretty clear. So. No one reads anything. Everybody is fair. Everybody cynical. Confused. Says the magazine. Yes, it reads. And you say, Yeah, yeah, okay, you're right. Get a headline out there. Call someone a. naughty word. Say they're anti a. country or they are.

radical. You know, if the anyone sues, this. publication will take years and. years and years and hope that. some club member at Mar. a Lago hands this to President. Trump. Exactly. And tries to trick. him and thinks that Mr. Trump. is a stupid man. And this is the approach. and this is what they were trying to. do at six as a cyclone. I mean, the word has been abused. by the. Republicans to me. Yes, But it is this is actual. disinformation. Yes. I hate to use the word, but.

like what are the publications? Who were the people involved in this. campaign of lies? Okay. I mean, I'm not familiar and I. don't know any of the people over. there personally, but the big story. that's going around on both. to me now and I believe Caldwell is. from Jewish Insider. And again, no one really wants. to be, you know, attacked. by something called Jewish Insider. It doesn't sound very fun. And so they are running. headlines against people. and they are attacking them.

And they what they do. is they don't say anything that is, per se inaccurate, but they. totally strip the context. for everything. So what? Let's go one by one. Do you know what you mean? Just by correspondence? Okay. And what's your is this a radical. figure, anti-American figure? No, this is this is somebody who. who wants to pull. back, I would say. moderately from the Middle East,

which I think at this point is. basically bipartisan outside. of the radicals within Washington, D.C. and the Beltway. Okay. I think that's a fair. assessment. So that the people who. want to continue what we're doing. at unsustainable cost, being a bankrupt country, by the. way, are sending aid to countries. that are not bankrupt. Right. Those are the radicals, I think it's. fair to say. So what are they saying. about Domino in this hit piece? They are trying to make the reader. jump to the conclusion that he is. anti-Israeli, that he is.

pro-Iranian. There's pro-Iranian. Iranian. He is somehow pro radical Islam. You know, he's he's pro. all the scary people. In radical Islam. Sure. Yeah, whatever. It doesn't really matter. I don't know the guy. It sounds kind of Catholic to me. Think they think, you. Know, a lot of Shiites called Domino. or is that a common name for. Persians? Not to my information. Okay. And again, I think it bears. repeating that this person like was. responsible for the tracking. of Revolutionary Guard Corps. members in Iran,

essentially sent some of them to. their death. So the whole thing has an opera. buffet flavor to it that he's being. attacked as. So what you're saying is these are. people who will say anything. It doesn't doesn't matter. They're kind of from the very white. school of journalism, just like you. have an objective, something you want to achieve. And whatever it takes to get there. is fine. You will say it. It doesn't doesn't matter. You'll call anybody anything. if it if it serves your purpose. They are very, very willing. to destroy this person with. absolutely no compunction.

Is there any evidence that he's, quote, anti Israel? None. Right? None. And in fact, is evidence to. the contrary, which he which he. praises the the country. Yeah. So he is critical. of aspects of the. war as it's. Okay to. Be critical of other people's wars. Yeah. Or your own wars. It's okay to offer analysis of. war. Or to even state that it's not, In. fact, our war as the president, the. United States just did on his. inauguration day, emphasizing from.

behind the Resolute desk. Right. That is their war, not our. war. So I read. Something from a guy called David. Wurmser, who was one of the. architects of of. of the Iraq war, not from this. country, not really concerned with. this country at all. And also, I think it's fair to say, you know, someone who should hang. his head in shame, given a lifetime. of destruction that he's helped. bring to our country, but. described these policies as. anti-American. So, obviously, it takes a lot of. balls for someone.

who has no interest in the United. States to accuse someone. whose whole orientation is helping. the United States of being. anti-American. But I've noticed this. a lot. If you raise. the question like, what are we. getting out of this, you know, the. endless war cycle. We're getting bankruptcy, obviously, but like, is this good for us? They'll accuse you. You know, the Constitution kids and. also non-American will accuse. that wing will accuse you of being. somehow woke. And you're like left wing for you. asking these questions. Have you noticed this?

Yeah. I mean, interesting that you. raise some of these figures like. we're going to see all night. I'd like. To hope. There's no more repulsive group in. American life than. the people who continue to push. death and bankruptcy. on the United States. I think that's fair. Can't recover from death. No, you can't. Yeah. So, I mean, I think. that they're hoping that Americans. don't do the reading, hoping. or hoping that they're hoping that. Americans read ex-post.

Yeah. They're hoping that Americans. watch random. cable news hosts. That they're zoned out. and they hear they have, you know, let's say they have a positive view. of, you know, certain aspects. of of America's role in the Middle. East. And they start. tar and feathering people on. the Internet and that there's no. push back on it. At the same time. It's just I guess the only reason. I have noticed this. is because it's so over. the top rather than look, I think.

a lot of these positions are. legitimate. I disagree with them. You know, none of these people are. smart people. I know almost all of. them. Yeah. And they could make like. a straightforward case for their. position. Like, here's why we should. affect regime change in Iran or. here's why we should kill Putin. I mean, maybe there's a case to be. made for that, but they never make. the case. They attack anyone who stands. in their way in the most. brutal and dishonest ways. They have no limits at all in their. behavior at all. And I just find that repugnant. and corrosive.

Even if I agree with them. I'd be against that. Like, what is. that? This is guerilla warfare. The win at any costs. Win at. Any costs. I know I'm jumping my eyes, I'm. exercised. I just watch what's. happening to me called Steve Wyckoff. Dynasty Book Office. Okay. So he's a friend of Trump's. He's a real estate guy from Newark. I happen to know him. Just four. Other people already know him. Pretty well. You know, just personally, I don't. know a ton about his views. I don't sense that, you know, we. probably don't agree on foreign. policy in some ways.

But he was tasked by Trump, as you. know, to go over, in effect, some. kind of cease fire between Israel. and Hamas. And he did. And I. don't he's anti-Israel. In fact, I know he's not. Whatever that means. And he's being attacked. as somehow an agent of. the Islamic Republic of Qatar. and like anti Israel. Steve Wyckoff Yeah. And I happen to really like Steve. along for the key. So just like a. great guy actually. And he's really tough and good guy.

If you had dinner with him, you'd. like him, trust me. But I'm just blown away by the. dishonesty rather than, say, hasty. work off like I disagree with you or. whatever. It's. He's working for Qatar. No. What? He's from, like, Long Island. What are you talking about? This is the higher profile. I mean, I mean, they're hoping, again, that. that Trump has learned nothing. They insult the president. But these people are disgusting. They're liars. And like, if there's one thing the. country said too much of is lying, let's just stop lying. Let's just be honest.

I agree. Yes, I. Agree. We've been corrupted by lies. completely. The country is about to. Collapse because of lies, and. the people pushing endless. war are one of the main vectors. for that lying. Like because there's just. no reference point in reality at. all. If Steve Wycoff is an agent. of the Islamic Republic, then. I just give up. Do you really. Mean. Yeah. No. Okay. Sorry. Lecture room. No, no, no, no. I mean, the work, I think, in some. ways is what set the whole thing. off.

Right, Right. Most reasonable, moderate person in the world. No, he's not anti-Israel. He's just tough. I think the work, I think, surprised. both sides, though. I would note so. I think so. Obviously you knew him. before. Yeah, it was in recent. years. Okay. So I think. in general, the open source. intelligence to use a. lame term, but like that I. would say, is that the hawks, people who want to say go all the. way on Iran did not expect. Wycoff to be so.

pragmatic. And then additionally the realist. and restraint camp also did not. expect it. They did not accept all. the all the reporting from, say, Israeli media, say, Haaretz. or Times of Israel. Their work off went in there and. sort of with. both the incoming Trump. administration and, you know, the. remnants of the of the Biden. administration for. Prime Minister Netanyahu into some. sort of deal, a deal that he had. turned down six months ago in. May of 2024, basically. identical deal that.

threw most everybody. in the loop for loop. And that has set off, as far as I can infer, a climate of. hysteria within Israel itself, at least among the I'm not. sure, Sir Netanyahu himself, but. at least within the factions of his. cabinet that are hard line. as hell. Okay. So they disagree. You know, they've had to give a. little. Everyone does in case she. Did not a disagreement. I mean, like this will not.

stop unless there's pushback. All I'm saying is when you reach. an agreement, everyone. gets pinched because that's just the. nature of it. Right. And no one likes it, you know, But like tough. That's what it is. And my read on Wycoff. is that he's just not. super ideological. I think he's pro-Israel. You know, it wouldn't even question. that, but I don't think he's an. ideologue. He's a he's a self-made real. estate guy who started. with like a single apartment.

building in Washington Heights. He's a tough human being. Yeah. And I think you need someone. who's practical and tough to affect. a negotiation. You don't want. someone who's captive to all kinds. of theories. Trump says, Hey, Wycoff, get a peace deal. You know, get a ceasefire in an. intermediate peace deal, a first. step toward one. Yeah. And we're like, okay. And he just shows up and he's like, Hey. You, you. Yeah, you like, that's. what you want, I think. I think a. lot of Israel was surprised by this.

I mean. I mean. I mean this was lost. in the absolute cacophony. of 2020, 24. Really. But yes, like if you read. I read the Israeli press. daily and, you know, there were members of. Netanyahu's coalition. So these are members of Prime. Minister Netanyahu, people who are. not in his party, who are more. hardline than him. And they were saying Trump's really. talking about this endless war. stuff. This might be a problem. And this was back in October and. September and August, and no one was.

paying attention because it was. Brett Summer. And, you know, other things were. going on. But this was coming. And the fact that they got it done. not even before, not even during. the transition itself, also. surprised people. And so I'm. sensing inflated expectations here. This is a foreign country, obviously. an ally, a close ally, the closest. ally, I think it's fair to say. But a separate country. And so, you know, I think realistic expectations would.

be we get some of what we want. We don't get everything we want. because, you know, we're not in. charge of the United States. But okay, there's there's. a tension here. I mean, so. first, the relationship between. the president of the United States. and the prime minister of Israel is. extremely unclear. Yes. Yes. I don't think. maybe only the two of them, you. know, they've they. have disagreed since. at least 2020. over the election, but they probably. disagreed beforehand over.

strikes in Iran. The last time you and I spoke. publicly was over the Soleimani. strike in January of 2020. And there was since then, reporting. in the last five years has come out. that the two of them disagreed over. that Trump felt. that the Israelis didn't do their. part. ET cetera, etc., etc.. So for years, for at least half a. decade, the well has been poisoned. between Trump and Netanyahu. Doesn't mean the relationship is. done, but. there has been an atmosphere of. mistrust.

And while he's had that. You know, I've watched closely and, you know, interviewed him more than. once and, you know, for many. Yeah. For, you know what Moving on. 30 years. Yeah. Because he's been in out of office. and he said complicated relations. with every president, you know. Yeah. I mean I think I think the key. thing to understand for your. listeners anyway is not. Turning this off because we're getting. into the the depths of Israeli. politics here. But Netanyahu's situation is. unstable. Yes.

A simple majority of Israelis. want him out. They want him to resign. He does not want to resign because. he resigns. He may go to prison. Right. And also. He's been a power achiever. for 30 years. And yes, I've noticed. that people who do that often. don't quit. I think that's fair. Yeah. Okay. So he doesn't quit for. both reasons of his freedom and. Yeah. You know, just live his life. Yeah. Yes. Okay. So he recognizable syndrome? I would say Yes. Yes. Not confined to Bebe is.

international. Yes, it is. Okay. So how. does he not quit? It's pretty clear that. spectacular circumstances. justify his presence. is very similar, actually. I mean, there's been comparisons. between him and Churchill. It's actually fair. Only in wartime can someone like. Netanyahu at this point get a. position. I get it. The war has to. go on. So what war? So they have basically a deal with. Hezbollah. I think it's not like.

I think that is by far the least. likely that they're going to go back. in there. They're basically two. options. One, once all the hostages are. exchanged and they go back. into Gaza. Okay. Or I guess one be. Yes. To do the West Bank, which is. already going on right now. Or two. What do. You mean? Do the West Bank. Evade it and exit? I mean. What about the people who live. there? Like what happens to them? But Israel's problem. Is that if. You're in the West Bank. I mean, what are you doing there?

What is the point of the operation? You know. To annex the territory and build. developments. I mean, this is this. is I mean and, you know, the. unstated thing is that through. either export, these people will. eliminate them. And so it's pretty terrifying. stuff. It's not light stuff. This is not a light interview. And so the problem. is the U.S. is the military underwriter. of this. The Israelis probably can't do this. without us selling them weapons. And so while Americans are tuned.

out and not thinking about this kind. of thing, our reputation overseas. is one of arms dealer. And over time, that affects. your children being able. to travel abroad, that affects. America's reputation overseas. It's dicey stuff. What caused 911, among other things. Right. So, yeah, it has effects for. sure. Yeah. Right. Option two, you know, is Iran. Yeah. Which is which is, as. I'll just quote and I'll quote the. the hard line perspective itself. Is the head of the snake and the.

conception of the Israeli. hard line and also the. neoconservative right in the United. States. Sure. And so Israel also. can't do Iran, in my view, and also in general. assessments without the help of the. United States is usually joint. US Israeli airstrikes. Or even a solo invasion. of Iran by the United States is. the ultimate sort of fantasy. I'm going to need more coffee to. proceed because you're blowing my.

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for his career. You know, he's just a smart. Tough. Competent person who was charged. with a task by the president and he. got it done. And maybe we need more of. that. I mean, you know, there are certain. parts of statecraft that. You know, probably helpful to have. experience in statecraft. But but some of it's just. pretty straightforward. You get a cease fire. Okay. Yeah. No, no, no. I mean, I think there. As did anyone from the State. Department, have done what Steve. Acuff did, do you think? No. Especially without the without.

the president's matter. Yeah. Yeah. But even if Trump had, like. Called someone in and been like, okay, Mr.. Career diplomat, can you effect a. cease fire? I'd be like, Well, it's very. complicated. You know, it's what comes as. the case. Cease fire, stop. No, it's the same. I mean, I mean, like they international relations. has been made into, but they have to make it into, like, a pseudoscience. Like, exactly. Yeah. Smart. Exactly. Just like everything else. Yeah. Just like everything else. Like journalism or.

Yeah, even education. But you can't teach third grade. without a master's degree. Are you kidding? Yeah. So we just need the second. Requirement is, do you like. Third graders? Is nothing to do with your master's. degree. The whole thing is it's. absurd. Yeah. And then, you know, it's the. same thing of. Of academia, which is. like people's theses are. increasingly more baroque and. like nobody actually just. Masturbatory. Large things like the Israeli. Palestinian conflict or at least. know it in a way that is. applicable in. power in real life. And I mean, maybe things.

are changing now, but. like also a lot of the foreign. policy establishment, it's different. now in the second term but wouldn't. work at the first Trump term, wouldn't work with their team. And I think that was to discredit of. the country. I think I think that. was I think that did not serve. the country well. Of course it didn't serve the. country well. We know the country. hasn't been served because look at. the country. And so I think, you know, we can. say of all players, they didn't. serve the country, don't include the. media. And there have been times. when I didn't serve the country, like when I advocated for the Iraq. war. I mean, we're all culpable to.

some extent. But it's. just remarkable to me that people. are continuing it. So now instead. of telling us that Saddam has. weapons of mass destruction. or that Osama bin Laden attacked. us for our freedoms or whatever. the lie of the day was, the new idea is that Iran has. got the head of the snake. How many Americans have been killed. by Iranian proxies in the United. States over the last 20 years? Do you think. How many Americans in the United. States. Have been killed by Iran sponsored. Terrorist? Zero. Right round, zero. How many have.

died of fentanyl or these. drugs? Precursors come from China? No, it's. More than a million. More than a million? Yeah. Okay. I think. I mean, I would. Like to paint places. I know. I mean, are you talking. about uranium? The Iranians backed proxies that. killed U.S. troops in the Iraq war? Yeah, but. Well, of course. But we shouldn't have done the Iraq. war. Well, Iran took over. Iraq because we took out Saddam. Hussein, as I said, in a majority. Shiite country. I happened to be.

there for that. And even I, as a 33 year old moron, was like, wait a second. In just a basic interest in. demographics, like, isn't this going. to go to Iran now? Yep. Anyway. Yes. Right. Right. But I just. Find it amazing that. there's been no public conversation. about whether or not the United. States should go to war with Iran. There's been no case laid out, at. least in 2002, they had the decency. to lie to us in a pretty. complicated, sophisticated way about.

weapons of mass destruction. Now it's just like, shut up. You're anti-American if you ask. questions. And it feels like we're moving. toward a conflict with Iran. Is that a fair. I think we have been moving towards. one. And, you know, I think the basically the biggest. risk of a Democratic. administration is a war with Russia. And the biggest risk of a Republican. administration is a war with Iran. Yes. So my rule is always that's why. it's more ethical to be a. Republican, because at least the. Iranians don't have nukes yet.

So that's that's actually like. pretty close to my first principle. Like like just. Outright we have simplified. Yes. Yes. But the Iran war would. be still like. the worst and like not. something that we should pursue and. look like. Foreign policy experts at this point. will chime in on this conversation. being like, well, that's just. so unrealistic. That's not really what we want. This is actually a ridiculous. externality. But I think it is worth. noting that we. have done wars toppling.

governments throughout the region. over the course of the last 25. years. So, number one, it's happened. very recently. Number two, it is kind of the. explicit goal of the hard. liners. And the hard liners. keep moving the Overton Window in. their direction. And so while this is. perhaps not 100%. certain, hardly. there is a hard drive. towards doing this and. picking off Pentagon. deputies and allowing. leaders like Trump and Vance to be.

surrounded by hawks. and no dissenting voices. whatsoever. Yes. Is absolutely essential. towards any road to war. And I have to say, the amount. of. Calculated deception. on the right. So all of a sudden, very wise who's a leftist becomes. a conservative because she's against. tranny ism or something. You know, every normal person. is against that. Yeah. But you it's pretty. obvious. That the whole purpose of. her organization, the Free Press and.

her career in journalism. is to kind of soften up the right. for war with Iran and. and to attack anybody and its. whole constellation of. people or, you know, Neil Ferguson. and all these kind of people who had. weight to the project, but who really are all kind of paid. to flak for war with Iran and attack. anyone who's not with the program. I felt the sting of this, so I. didn't really understand how this. worked. But then. You know, someone with like. thoroughly moderate foreign policy.

views or only want war with anybody. I'm not against anybody. And all of a sudden you're like, wow, you know, people are calling. you anti-American. Well, there's precedent for this. So what you just got I don't know. I don't know any of the people you. described personally. But you're saying like there was. you said. The problem with voting Republican. is you're more likely to wind up. with a war with Iran. And I agree with you, I'd much. rather be worth around than war with. Russia, but I kind of don't. want either one. And it's just interesting how the. the groundwork. I just know because I've been in. conservative media my whole life.

also, and all these new people and. you're like, Barry Weiss, are you. really conservative or not. at all? And what are you doing here? You're trying to convince me that. I'm not allowed to oppose a war with. Iran or I'm going to be written. out of the conservative movement. or something. Okay. So a lot of people are. comparing Trump to Reagan these. days. Yeah. And I think it is an. inaccurate comparison. But there are obviously are. comparisons that are there very. different me being serious in my. position. So if you accept that. Trump is the biggest cheese. since Reagan. Yeah.

On the Republican side, what. happened in the Reagan years? So the neoconservatives, that is people who came from the. left and moved to the right. were very, very savvy, effective and reasonable at. domestic policy. They were very, very good on the. crime issues of the of the U.S.. And their periodic periodicals. got gained currency because, hey, actually we should clean up the. streets of New York, etc., etc., etc.. Etc., etc..

I knew a lot of them and some of. them were really smart, decent people too. Yeah. And by the way, some of. their foreign policy views were not. crazy at all. They were they. recognized the Soviet Union was. evil, like the first generation of. neocons. Midge Dichter I mean, I kind. of love them. Ejector. I don't know. I mean, I don't think that they were. all nuts at all. Yeah. But by the 90s. and 2000s. You know, if you believed in, you know, some crime enforcement. in New York, you also had to believe. towards the march towards regime.

change in Iraq. And so you know again I. don't want to. Skipping that part of the buffet. line. Yeah. You know, but I. will take the safe. City and the thriving economy. I'm going to leave out the Forever. War. Is that. Okay? But I think that is the the. essential pitch of this new. generation of neoconservatives. I mean, which, of course, there's no. cots of that, but it is. moderation on the social issues. Let's turn down the volume. Yeah. And at the same time, over here in. column space over here, a little all news item.

about what's going on in the Red Sea. and why the U.S. needs to care. And it's a drip, drip, drip, drip, drip, drip. And it can go on for months and. years and years and years. And all of a sudden, we super care. about Houthis in Yemen. We super care about. Iran. And we have to. underwrite a war. in Israel until every single. member from us is dead. And it's just not. clear that the US international.

US national interest is there. to put it lightly. Yeah, and I guess what I object. to is. I mean, I'm never offended by people. with different ideas. I'm never offended by someone who. makes a sincere case, affirmative. case for something I disagree with. Okay. And by the way, maybe he's. right and I'm wrong. I've certainly been wrong a lot. The part where I get enraged. Is the bad faith. Yeah. And so you ask questions like, well, is this in our interests when you. hate someone's. I don't hate anybody and I certainly.

don't hate that. I certainly don't hate that country. I like it a lot, actually. Yeah. But there's no room for it. They don't. They're preventing. discussion. Yeah. And and a lot. of these people have the gall. to describe themselves as, you know, warriors for free speech. Well, of course, free speech is the. last thing they want. And they've gone out of their way to. prevent any kind of open. conversation about the most. important topics in our collective. life. So I'm just I'm just bothered by the.

lying. There's too much lying, don't. you think? Absolutely. I would say and. By the way, I'll even go further and. say, having worked for Bill Kristol. for five and a half. Years and Kristol, the editor of The. Weekly Standard, that was was the. absolute launching. point magazine of the Iraq. War, for sure. And I was there. I mean, I started. the very first day of the Weekly. Standard, August 1st, 1995, 30 years ago. And I thought Bill Kristol, I still. would say it was a great boss, you. know, interesting, fun. to talk to. Funny as hell.

Obviously, I think he's taken a. really dark turn in his life, has. been kind of a disaster and I feel. bad for him. But one thing I'll say about Bill. Kristol circa 2000. is that he would make an actual. case for his views. He would say we have to go in and. take out Saddam for the following. eight reasons. And you're right. And you see this in 95, 96, 97. I mean, I was there for all of that. and I wasn't paying super close. attention because I was dumb. and I was focused on other things. and I was like, yeah, it's a foreign. policy hobbyhorse, you know, into.

that stuff. I'm not that into it. I don't understand the stakes. I don't really think anything. actually when I was a kid. But I always. Admired and still admire his. willingness and that generation's. willingness to make their case to. write some paper. Here's what we're. for. That is gone. And now it's just like, can we. censor the people? Can we call them names to the point. where they get kicked off social. media? So there's no. Kind of argument? Well, even Kristol himself has. stopped writing. Well, he could never write. You know. He's not a genius, I will say.

But, you know, an affable, amusing. person in meetings. You know what I mean? I mean, probably the most successful. political organizer of the last. 30 years and tireless. You know, and there are good things. to be said about Bill Kristol. Obviously, I'm a Nazi, like. a hundred times. But that's kind of. the point. I'm not a Nazi. I'm not for the Nazis. I just don't know. I've got different views. And that's the turn that I'm really. bothered. By. Is just the pure ad hominem.

Attempted. That's an attempted. censorship. Yeah. And and. very wise engages in that like. relentlessly behind the scenes. using all kinds of proxies, some. of whom I know. And I just want to say it out loud. I just want to say this is this is. deception here. Okay? So I hope people know that. I think it makes it impossible for. the new president to do what. he's promised to do if he doesn't. solve this conundrum. Well, tell me what you mean. So, I mean, if the president wants. to send troops to the US border.

and the Trump and the president. wants to rebuild. the American economy and. the president wants to focus. on China. Yes. And the President wants. the moral credibility to. end the Russia-Ukraine war. at some point. Yes. Expanding the war. in the Middle East. Even with prolonged arms. sales, corrodes. his political capital. Who's going to pay for that? The United States.

You know what I mean? We literally are operating in the. red to the tune of trillions. of dollars, like. How are you and. What world can we afford that? Well, it's a very complex topic. We don't have any functioning. community hospitals left. We have the reserve currency and we. can keep writing debt. until it causes. an inflation crisis, which a lot of. people thought would happen earlier. and did not. And even our inflation crisis in the. 2020s was mild by global standards. So accordingly, we've got plenty. of room for the big enchilada,

which is an Iran war. Right? Yeah. So this it just feels. like a big deal. It's a big deal to me. And it feels like it's worth. I mean, it certainly if you comment. on this, you do ask yourself, is it really worth it? You know, do I want to get into. this? By the way, a lot of people I. really like and I'm, you know, friends with violently disagree. And so you run the risk, which I really don't want, of. rupturing friendships over it. I just the last thing I want ever.

And and you think I maybe I should. be quiet, but it does. seem like that's a huge. step. And at the very least, the public ought to understand that. there are highly motivated. people pushing us toward that. Do you think that we will. participate in a military action. against Iran? Well, the big question is right now. So there's a new Iranian president. So the previous Iranian president. died along with his foreign minister. in a helicopter accident over the. summer. Little mystery.

Are you going to use air quotes. around an accident or. I mean, a lot of things happened. last year. It's very possible. I mean, I don't think. You're on Everyone got killed by. Iran. There are so. many accidents. The Iranians, the Iranians, equipment, helicopter equipment is. it's my understanding, is old. Yeah. And it is a rough. part of the world. And it's possible. that it it's likely that it. just went down. Yeah. And again, I would say. I. Would not fly in a helicopter. with Iranian officials.

I'm just telling you. Yeah. Yeah. And again, if you think. it was Israel, the Israelis, not. pretty. Pretty much pretty much took. credit or didn't deny all. the other assassinations that. occurred last year. I don't you. Know, Hamas leadership, etc., etc., etc.. Just for the record, I try to. suspend judgment because. I know a lot about what countries. do. And I do think. there's one thing I'll say in. support of Israel. I do think that it is. You know, it isn't fair to just. single out Israel and say they're.

doing naughty stuff like lots. of people are doing naughty stuff. That's just a fact. My only. You know, the only point where I. would feel like I want to say. something is if the United States. gets sucked into it. Let's turn that now. Now we're talking about our. interests, my country, where. my family's from. And I think it's fair to speak up. then. Yeah. So I guess maybe the 2025. zoom out, you would say. there was an election in Iran right. afterwards. Yes. Okay. A lot of people disagree with.

our perspective. We'll disagree with this term. But the more moderate. candidate people think there are no. moderates within the regime, but the the less hardcore. candidate won. Yeah, the first time this has. happened since Trump left the Iran. deal. And this person, it is not clear how much power. he has within the system. The supreme leader is old. It's not clear how old. And there will be a succession. crisis to succeed the supreme.

leader should he die. Yes. So it is this weird situation. where every time Iran is in a. crisis and the crisis right now, there are electricity crisis by all. reporting. Again, don't know if we can trust. all the reporting, but there can't. keep the lights on in Tehran fully. And what will they do? And so every time Iran is at a. decision point, there is a. focus between what. I will call the moderates and. the hardliners within their. government. The hardliners want to go for. the bomb. They think we can't trust anybody.

Right. We we need. to get the bomb. They also recently signed a mutual, you know, a defense pact just. short of mutual defense pact, but a. security arrangement with the. Russians. So they seem to have a bunker. mentality right now. If US intelligence. or Israeli intelligence or Western. intelligence assesses that. they are going for the bomb. in a real way. so they can either be true or false,

but if they assess it, then. there will be severe. pressure on the new. administration to do airstrikes. on Iran. Again, if. I look, I. Don't want Iran to get the bomb and. or anyone to get the bomb. I'm against the bomb. Okay. But I was around when Pakistan got. the bomb. Yeah. And Pakistan is, you know, a country with a lot of. wonderful people in it, kind of a. great country in a lot of ways. spent from our time there. However, the government of Pakistan. Is arguably scarier than us.

Yeah. You think harbored Osama. bin Laden, etc.. ISI has been, you. know, really a source of disorder in. South Asia for a long time. And they've exported nuclear. technology, including to North. Korea. So no one's ever said. anything about that. Like it's not a. crisis that the Islamic Republic. of Pakistan has the bomb. I don't really get it. I mean, why was that not a crisis? Why do we need nothing to do? Nothing to stop that? I guess it occurred basically. when the US was still.

quasi pro Pakistan over. India. And it was. That was a bad bet, by the way. It was a Nixonian event. Actually. He he really he really. didn't like Indira Gandhi. It was basically. Okay. Well, it basically was I think. we can say longitudinally, that was. a bad bet. He just. Didn't like one person and it. didn't. Matter. No, that was like betting on Wang. computers over Apple. Like it just kind of didn't turn. out. Yeah I. not holding a Wang in my. right so. But but the point is. I want to cut that.

This is so, so, so, so. Keeping the weighing in. Yes. Look, I. All my father's. Software and computers. Yes. Sorry. I don't mean to make it. personal. No, no. Well, then I just. Have one point. That's how sales in. the country when computers. Your father sold some wings. Yes. Is this actually going. To actually go? Yes. Yes, Yes. Yeah. Our piece has. Been hitting it was five years ago. this month that people started to. drop dead in the central Chinese. city of Wuhan. Five years since the beginning of.

Covid. And yet, for some reason, we still don't know answers. to the most basic questions. And one man knows those answers. His name is Dr. Tony Fauci, and now. a documentary filmmaker called. Jenner First is out with a new. film explaining exactly. what happened. The film was called. Thank You, Dr. Fauci. We'll see it exclusively here on. TCM. Look, all I'm saying is it's. important to. maybe dial back a little bit on the. moral outrage and assess the world. as it is.

Assess what you can do. You know, create a hierarchy of. priorities, like we don't want other. countries to get nuclear weapons. I think that's I'm with the neocons. 100% on that. But, you know, in a. complicated world that we don't. actually control. Right. What will you know, what can we. do to the limits of our power, given a lot of other factors like. our domestics, our economy, the. needs of our people? Like you can't do everything. That's all I'm saying? Yeah. No, I mean, so I think Trump. should complete the work of his. first term, which is he.

revoked the JCPoA, the. Iran deal, and he should do a Trump. Iran deal. She's sending Wycoff over to do. that. So so the work of the aforementioned. not only did what he did with. the Israelis, he was promoted for it. per reporting. There's not been confirmed, to my. understanding, by the transition or. the White House. But per the FFT and I believe. another outlet where Carter is. getting, quote, the Iran file within. the Trump universe. That's as much power as the. president wants to give it. But as of filming,

his role is expanding. And if Trump. wants a lasting legacy. of peace and prosperity, there. needs to be an accommodation. with the de facto government. of Iran. So if he of. Course, there does this is just. in this is totally insane. It's counter to our interests, I. guess, is what I would say. If you were Trump and you. say to Steve Wycoff, hey, Steve. Wyckoff, go get a, you know, ceasefire in place.

And he comes back like 20 minutes. later with a cease fire, wouldn't. you. Say? Okay, we like that Peace. Wouldn't you send him to Iran? I would. Yes. Yes. Yeah, I mean, I think. I'd yeah, I mean I mean and. this is actually something both. Trump and Obama, who apparently get. along now at least perfunctorily. Yeah. Agreed on it. They both just like Michele I. Think so. they remember Obama on the debate. stage in eight. and he was he was he was how down.

for this? Whatever you think of. Barack Obama said. we should meet with the Iranian. leaders face to face. And Trump did similar. maneuvers. Yeah, I was sure why would. Yeah. With Kim Jong un, etc., etc.. And again. We sucking up to dictators. Shut up. I mean. I mean, it was. Was North Korea policy more stable. from 2017 to 20 21 or. 20 21 to 2025? I there was no. Going to 25 years of this nonsense. killing dictators and watching their. countries become more chaotic and. more dangerous to the United States.

and the world, that we have any. obligation to listen to people who. chirp like that now. And that was shut up to link it. Anything. Actually. Some of that. So we started this. conversation with, you know, sort of. the campaign against. the cadres that are now serving. sensory hacks of. the people that are leading in, as. far as I can infer, are oftentimes. many of the people that were behind. the original Iraq war. And so Well. Yeah. Yeah. So this may seem obvious. I'm 55, so this. Is driving me completely insane.

I thought after. we discovered that the pretext, the. war was a lie, that those people. would, I don't know, done ashes, I think sackcloth and go like. sit on a pillar for ten years. I think a lot of Americans assume. that they did. So we do this for a. living. He didn't pay a lot in the. World Bank and they still run the. State Department. Yeah. And Toria Nuland, who was an. architect of the Iraq war, was an. architect of the Ukraine war like. this, it just doesn't end. But most Americans have real. jobs and don't know this. And so these people.

are disguised or shrouded from. public view, and. they are still quite effective. at driving home an agenda. In fact, I would assume they will. win absent pushback. And they'll. Definitely win ups and push back. 100%. Yeah. So they are There. Are still if I want an. Interview. Yeah, there's still has your monarch. and even if even if. they're a minority government, so. to speak. Yeah. And I and I, I'm. because I'm, I spent my life in the. media. I'm very kind.

of fixated on their enablers, their agents in the American. news media. And one of them who's working has. been working for years on their. behalf and on behalf of permanent. Washington, the foreign policy. establishment. Every bad idea. is Jennifer Griffin at Fox, the. Pentagon reporter. who is now, you know, basically texting. Domino. Is that the Michael. Domino? Yeah. Is, you know, running around. on behalf of,

you know, her sources at. the Pentagon. doing their bidding, trying to. torpedo these guys because. the permanent staff doesn't want. to be challenged on anything. And okay, you know, there's a role. for that kind of behavior. It's called lobbying. But it's a little crazy that, like, a supposed news reporter would be. acting like that. I'm not guessing. this is a fact. She's doing that. right now and has been doing that. kind of thing for as long as I've. been paying attention, like a couple. couple decades.

How does that continue? Yeah, I don't know her personally, but what I was saying, I do know the. role of most Pentagon. reporters has always struck me since. I've done this as extremely. hierarchical. I mean. What do you mean by her? It almost felt like the reporters. worked for the Pentagon. Well, of course they yeah. So, I mean, in any place that I've. worked that had a Pentagon. correspondent and. that was only where you stayed in. the room. And. isn't this a democracy. where we have civilian command.

of the armed forces and. the entire federal government works. for the population of the country, its voters, its citizens, its. constituents and shareholders now. There's no sense of that whatsoever. in Washington at all. Yeah. It's like, what are you doing here? I think it's fast moving. I mean, I mean, you didn't see. criticisms or skepticism. of the military from the right until. the very last few years, including from the new president. Including from organs. of conservative media. I think it started with with Mark.

Milley, but also the. sort of. Now some of us were out of the. force. I know. But but in. public. It was. Considered a fringe position. It's not. Fringe. Yeah. You know, I just. Refer you back to the pivot point in. American politics in my lifetime, which was the 2016. debate in Greenville, South. Carolina, where Donald Trump, home. of the highest percentage of. military veterans of any state, famously, and Donald Trump. came out against the Iraq war in all. the Dumbo's at the channel I work. for and in Washington like, he's.

Lost it now. He'll never get the nomination. He's offended all the veterans and. of course, all the guys whose lives. were destroyed fighting these wars, not on behalf of the United States, not to the benefit of the United. States. They were filled. with many emotions frustration, shame, rage, sadness. And they immediately. Knew what he was talking about, and. no one in DC. No video informed his polling. So like he was he was polling it. Certainly he was ahead and. the Bush family came in.

That's when it was it was the last. stand for for Mr. Jeb out. in February of 2016 and. George W Bush campaign finally. for Jeb. And it was like we got to. keep in the race. We're going to make our stand. And he did the big fat. mistake that is Iraq. debate. And I think Trump is up 10. or 15. I think he won. by over 20. And I don't know that. But it was it was it was something. like that. He was was right. Before the primary. It was over the polling. So they not only they did not go. down and still won.

He went up and then quickly. triumphed. That was the moment when I was just, you know, whatever his flaws, I was. for Trump, because here was a. guy telling a real truth, a hard. truth that no one wanted him to tell. and was. rewarded for it. And I just felt like that was that's. consistent with my principles and. beliefs, which is you ought to tell. the truth in a healthy country, rewards people who tell the truth, not people who I. This is cynical bet, though I would. say that. And it's a cynical bet.

on Trump and it's a cynical bet. on Americans. And it's a cynical bet on. Republicans and independents, which is I just I just it was. this is the actual language. of the center, left or left. wing media. It's a cult. And once the cult leader leaves, we can just go back to 2005. and implant. the same old free trade, open borders, maybe analyst. neo conservatism. And actually, the.

people that are driving. the opposition to these. selections in the Pentagon. agree with President. Trump's critics. in spirit and. in practice. You know, it. That's an interesting analysis. I mean, it's like MSNBC's level. dumb person analysis, but it's also. like a real analysis. And there is a sense in which. devotion to Trump has a religious. quality to it, and that's. undeniable. I was just in D.C. for the inauguration. I can confirm that.

And there are a lot of reasons for. that. I you know, I think a. lot of voters feel like Trump is the. only person who cares about them. He's their only option. And so they're on board regardless, because where else are they going? And I think I think that's. true, A, and B, I think that's a. reflection of like how badly the. leadership of the country has. failed. People will take anything other than. that. But I also think. Saying. True things out loud changes. history. I think that's the lesson of. history. The only people who. actually change history are not the.

ones who marshal the biggest armies, but the ones who speak the truth out. loud. I think it's a holy act. I think it's a transformative act. in all of history. Is the story of that act, actually. And sometimes it. you know, it takes centuries for. the consequences to unfold. But they do. It's inevitable. It changes everything once you. That's why there's such a. almost a crazed attempt to shut. down people from speaking. Why speaking? They don't care about violence. They care about talking because they. understand correctly that that's.

what matters over time. Right? So once Trump is set, all. this stuff. There's kind of no going back. No. Did you think I mean, that's my. view. I don't know. If I. Don't know. I don't I don't agree. with the cynical, but I think it's a. bad bet. Yes. Which is why the tactics are. increasingly hysterical. and marginal. But we're we're robbed of like a. real debate. I mean. I don't know, you know, if. It's if you think. It's so important. To. Kill the leaders of Iran. and get into a full scale war with a. real country, which Iran is, which.

is part of a real coalition, they. won't. Say full scale. They'll say like war. They'll say that the ayatollah has. to go. And it's very important to use as. scary words as possible as. I. The mullahs, the Islamic. Republic emphasize, you know, and again, like. basically the bin Laden who's dad. runs a country, even though he's. different ethnicity and a different. religion. And so it doesn't really. matter. You're stupid and. you can't do this again. And like they.

won't say an invasion. But again, some of the people. pushing this stuff didn't. see an invasion in 1996. They said if they. laid this off. In the ground for the debate. On it, I guess that's. The it. Wasn't a. Debate. I mean, it's. Little harder here, too, because on. the question of Russia, it's. been surprisingly effective for them. to just dismiss all criticism. as sponsored by Putin. Like, you don't think it's a good. idea to prop up. Speed is very important. This one's key government.

You're a Putin puppet or. whatever. You want someone to do. Can you really call like. A white American Christian guy. a puppet of the. Mullahs? Probably not. Like, I don't think that works, right, does. it? I guess they're trying it with Steve. Wyckoff. You're a you're a tool. of cutter. Yes. You're referring to it. So the. Shiites, I don't think. As a rhetorical matter, it's. quite as easily. Addressed the actual allegation. So, I mean, it's a work of I believe. Turkey is a real estate firm, took.

some sort of investment from Qatar. And so, first of. all, I would say throughout. the Trump entourage, a lot of them. have worked with Gulf states. And far as I'm Intel, the real estate business is. rife with investments. from Gulf states. And then additionally, as far as I'm. aware, this is hardly that man's. with the domestic. I mean, you can't buy an apartment. in New York because there's so much. Chinese money in the residential. real estate market. So like, okay, so the argument is what? You're only allowed to invest in.

your own companies country's real. estate. Okay, let's start here. Let's ban foreign investment or real. estate markets. No, that's anti-capitalist. Just the whole thing doesn't make. sense. What are they saying? What? Well, I'm with the Khazar argument. specifically. I mean, I think it's. an unusual place. It was supposed to be the eighth. Emirate. You know, it is separate. from the UAE. It is the most conservative. of those Emirates, I would say, at least in terms of the government. They have a perspective.

They spend money on media. They spend money on press junkets. They have an influence operation, no. question. But the idea that this small. jetting, you know, LNG dependent. You know, Peninsula. controls U.S. foreign policy, hook, line. and sinker, top to bottom. If you think that. I don't think you're experts.

I mean. I do think it areas it's. Worth having an honest. I've never seen one there's never. has been one but an honest. conversation about foreign influence. on American policy. And that's a totally legitimate. topic. And, you know, we've kind of. done a lot of lying and pretending, for example, that Russia has undue. influence over American foreign. policies. It's absurd. But but why not have. that conversation, too? Are there. are there foreign countries that. exert influence on American foreign. policy whose interests. supersede those of American citizens.

when in the minds of policymakers. and you know, there are some of. those, what how. would we rank Qatar? You know, in terms of its influence. Maybe. Maybe not in the top three. Yeah, I know. Right. So just having. lived in D.C., this whole. conversation is, like, so. infuriatingly false. and just silly. I mean, are they running until. operations against us? Are a lot of Qatar surveillance. and Washington want a Qatar.

agents running around the. Willard Hotel? I don't think so. Well, maybe that's not. Very well discussed. Like, what are you talking about? I mean, our country's doing that. Are they hacking. The Pentagon's mainframes? I don't think. China is doing that. Yeah. Right. Okay. So, yeah. I mean, making the allegation, though, is a kind of armor, though. It makes you sound informed. It makes you seem like a sort of. a spymaster in, you know, like, I know something you.

don't. I'm. I'm more serious. than that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like. Like. Like let's not have a. conversation. And it's very anti-democratic. Small d. It is. It is. It is not agreeing. Disagree. It is not saying we have different. values and, you know, shaking each. other hand walking out of the room. It is it is shutting. down the spirit of the system. So that's exactly the complaint that. I have. And that's the problem that I have. with very wastes. Problem I have with Jen Griffin. is the problem I have with The.

Washington Post. And just so much of the media. coverage of foreign policy. is based on insinuation. and. Like the cruelest. Character destroying insinuations. that you're not loyal to your own. country. And I'm to root. For the biggest. God, man. They go right for the. face. And. I just think that that's beneath a. great nation like ours. I think it's beneath any. decent person to behave. If you have evidence of someone. selling out his country, tell me.

what it is. But to start with that, to accuse. Steve Wycoff of being a tool of. Qatar. It's so over the top. I just feel like it's important to. call out to people doing it and. say, You're disgusting, We're not. listening to you anymore. You have no influence except that. that you project through aggression. and threats and like. We're not we're not playing along. I think a lot of it is effective in. Republican politics. Yes. Because, you know. So you were there for the. inauguration I observed a.

week ago. And, you know, I've always observed. that is. usually when I meet someone. from a red state like red state, Oklahoma, Alabama, it's often the. first time in Washington, D.C.. Yes. It's very like a. Roman province visiting Rome. for the first. Totally. And I'm here from Gaul. Yeah. Show me around. Yeah. And yeah, versus I would say blue state. America actually has a lot like the. coasts have a lot more familiarity. with D.C.. Yes. Back and forth,

etc., etc.. So when they hear. the argument going on in the. Capitol, there's actually a de facto. trust. there that might be not. as much there on the Democratic. side. There's actually there's. actually a more jaundiced. cynicism on the Democratic side. There is less effective. They assume that the. despite it all, despite all the. failures that you've announced, that. you've reported on fairly. tirelessly, they assume that the. people in DC know what they're. doing. And I'm not sure that's the greatest.

default assumption. Well. I mean, I think the track record is. pretty speaks conclusively. I mean, look, respectfully. to the president, I mean, Donald. Trump again, is the only. US president who has was. not a general or a former. statewide official or. federal official running to get. the presidency. And with all due respect. to the president, a healthy country. doesn't elect someone like that.

It had that level of outsider. That level of. Outsider could only exist. within a polity that was deeply. sick. And I think he knows. that. I think he recognizes that. And the fact that. the capital doesn't imbibed. that lesson, I think they're. reviving a little bit more. But it's like I. mean, it's still bizarre ten years. on. I mean, Trump, June. 2015. So in June this year, ten. years of Trump, you know, longer. than Obama at this point, the Trump.

era in spirit, I mean, length. It's like, wow, maybe then there's. something wrong with this country, but it's like a 5% recognition. It's not a it's not a 95%. I think national I mean, first of. all, I agree completely. And I wrote a piece at the very. beginning of this whole saga, almost. like. Trump is shocking, vulgar and. Right. Yeah, he he's winning because you. failed. Simple, you know, obvious. But anyway, I don't think he gets. it. But I also think at this point, Trump is the most powerful. president, certainly.

since Roosevelt. Interesting. And the potential. for, you know, achieving his. promises is really high. America has greater problems than. it's had since the Great Depression, maybe even bigger than it had then. And we have a chance to address. them. Probably not solve all of. them, but make some headway on. things that could help Americans. Sealing the border, stopping. the chaos, just taking a breather. so we can figure out how to fix the. country. And the only thing that could derail. that is, is another foreign. war. Can't do it with this stuff.

It is an actual choice. It's an actual. Choice. Not do the border. If we do the Middle East. So you start with. 200,000 people, you're dying of drug. goodies and no one said anything. about it. And endless lectures about. Ukraine. And it's no disrespect to the. Ukrainians who I really feel sorry. for, but like, that's so. unbelievable that that happened. It's like a bad dream. And now we've woken up from the. dream and we have this chance. And I'm sorry. I just you know, with respect to. Barry White and Jan Griffin, you.

can't do that to us again. I just. Not going to. Not going to go without a fight this. time. We have to re-orient. toward our own interests. That's no disrespect to any other. country, to our allies, who we wish. well. And we'll help the extent we. can. But like the idea that we're. responsible for all these other. countries when we're dying. here, not us. Is that is that a radical. position? That's my actual position in my. heart. That's my actual position. I agree. But it's very upsetting. not only to leaders. of some foreign countries.

And this is not just the Middle. East. We didn't even talk about. Russia. Ukraine by like I mean, that perspective is obviously very, very relevant for extricating. the United States out of the. Russia-Ukraine war. And almost every European capital. is unhappy with that. And, you know, you can have a. conversation with a nice. Danish person and you might agree on. immigration or trade or or. wine, but you. mentioned like, hey, I'm not really. sure the United States should be underwriting. a quagmire in Ukraine and the.

conversation shuts down. Mean it is stunning. Well, they're. Hell bent on suicide. The Western Europeans and not the. Eastern Europeans or Central. Europeans, but the Western Europeans. are, you know, decided to kill. themselves. And it's it's almost like if. someone's standing on a bridge or in. a window of a skyscraper and you try. to talk them back in, it's it's. hard. And who knows why that. happens. I think there's a supernatural. element at work as my personal view. But whatever you think the cause is, that's what it is. You destroy it. You blow up Nord. Stream, destroy the German economy, and you're not allowed to say.

anything about it in Germany. I don't know that we can help you at. that point. You know what I mean? Like, if. you're. That intent on self harm, that anxious to destroy your. own civilization, make it impossible. for your children to live there, then you're killing yourself. You can't help someone just want to. help himself. Go ahead and jump. then. That kind of. That's how I feel. But just from an American. perspective, like all of this has. been bad for us, there's no way to. pretend otherwise except to. launch into some very moral.

lecture about dictatorships. And Winston Churchill and. Neville Chamberlain are such as shut. up. Okay. The Churchill things really, it's. Just played out. It's played out. I mean, it's played out in. There's there's a there's a gamble. that some of this stuff isn't played. out, though. I mean, there's there's. a gamble that. that I mean, I think people have. this country has a generational. problem. Right. And generations don't get along. I think that for good reason. Yeah. And I think there's.

just a bet that a lot of the. voters that. made the decisions in the 90s and. 2000s. are dumb and don't care about their. kids future and. will vote for the exact same thing. Clearly don't Yeah sorry. And will exert pressure on the new. administration to do the same thing. And I. mean there's a there's a bat. The the president is a desperate, cynical man who will do whatever. it takes when he's. pressured.

And I think the early evidence. is that it's untrue. I mean, I don't I mean, the the the. Evidence is that Trump is less. cynical than even his supporters. thought he was. I think that's the. truth. I mean, there's there's I. do want to discuss the Pompeo. Brian Hook. stuff. I would I was just reading the. the Barry Weiss editorial about how. pulling Pompeo's. What would she say? I didn't read. It. It's outrageous. It's a betrayal of Trump's promises.

My guess is that with the Free Press. argued. Yeah, that you. Can't you're not allowed. You are required to pay for. Mike Pompeo's security detail. And I will just say point blank, as someone who has faced greater. physical threats than Mike Pompeo, I. can promise you that. I you know, if I have security, I. pay for it myself. Like, why does. Mike Pompeo as a private citizen, get to stick me with the bill for. his security detail? Like, how does that work? Very wise. And the point is that. Mike Pompeo is a faithful servant. of the kind of ideas that.

she is here to push on the rest. of us, and therefore, he will be. defended at all costs. But but like, let's just be honest. about what's going on anyway. Sorry. Yeah. I mean, details roll off. The government doesn't usually. advertise it. Everyone's got a detail to foresee. as a detail. Yeah. Yeah. Cause he's in my dog park in. Washington, and I hear about it. I think the interesting thing. So it's very easy to just glaze over. Trump fighting with officials, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You know, sort of the other example. of this is Trump versus Bolton. And we talk about that and it's.

fine, but it's kind of over, right? But it's not in the mix and. or at least of Trump and like. But he's still got bits of egg in. his mustache and I don't have a cell. anymore, so I can't tell him. But he needs to fix that. Yeah I So. Pompeo and Hook. I mean. Look. Tell us who they are. Mike Yeah. So Mike Pompeo was the. former secretary of state, Former. CIA director. Former Kansas congressman. Former West Point valedictorian. Harvard graduate. Harvard Law graduate.

Joseph Accuser. One can try. I'm just. I can make you do the whole CV here. Okay? Right. So. And he was. I'm so bitchy. I'm so sorry I said that. It's beneath me. I shouldn't have. said that. The. The Bolton Trump feud is all. the. The disagreement with Pompeo. is potentially quite new. And so I by. all available information are. Pompeo was in the mix. for secretary of defense most. likely in the days after.

the election. So much so that his son Donald. Trump Jr intervened in a sort. of online campaign. and, you know, other allies. within that milieu. stopped both Pompeo. and the former UN ambassador and. South Carolinian Governor Nikki. Haley from getting administration. posts. I had heard about that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Pompeo. Patriotic Americans rallied, as they did in Boston in the 18th. century to act.

on behalf of their nation at some. personal risk. But they did it anyway. Unsung heroes. One of the Pompeo's former deputies, Brian Hook, who ran. something called the Iran Study. Group and had various other. portfolios and titles at the. State Department. He's actually. someone Pompeo inherited from Rex. Tillerson, his predecessor. He kept them on. Brian Hook at. various points throughout the. transition in the last 100 days, was reported to be running the. State Department's transition at.

some point then was. rumors again, rumors. of just rumor. I don't I don't. post about it. I don't tweeted out. I don't write about it. But it was rumored to have been. fired. Very unclear. Trump. in the days leading up to him taking. the Oval Office. oath, I. Issued essentially. an enormous denunciation, a. fatwa against Mr. Clarke. Extraordinary to say not only.

is this guy not in the mix, hate him, and. he said that. So that that occurred. And then additionally, both Hook and Pompeo's. security detail was. removed in the last few days. I don't know that Brian Hook has. served in government in for years. Why would he definitely has nothing. to. Do with this for security. Detail paid for by taxpayers. Not an expert on who gets Secret. Service. But can I just I just want to say. Actually, I can I can actually.

directly answer that. Yeah. So the key thing here. is that there is. an allegation, a belief. many in the intelligence community. believes this, that there. were serious, credible. plans by the Iranians. to assassinate members. of the Trump High Command, as it. were. So Trump. Hawk, John Bolton, et cetera, etc., in revenge, principally for the Suleimani, because that's. Initiating a lot of terror attacks. in the United States. You've.

noticed. No, no. That was. Intense. So. Right. And so that is the. essential that is the causes. I'm just going to have to scoff at. all of. The causes bellyful. So all the. Time. I think the. Key thing here is the. critique on Trump are. always was he fired Bolton, but he didn't understand why. So he just he soured on the guy, but he didn't change any policy. You know, he didn't learn this. There's this this is the sort of. pedantic way of looking at the. president.

But with the Hook and Pompeo. removal from his inner circle, there is, I think, very. credible evidence that. Trump's personal grudges. are now blending quite heavily. with policy. He doesn't trust the Iran. Hawk old guard. A lot of the Iran Hawk old. guard think tanks struck. out in getting. I transition officials and. officials in this government and.

again circled. around this very unlikely Pentagon. Helmed by a guy who has changed. his life, it appears in pretty. severe ways over the last five. years, both ideologically and. morally. Is this. Very new Pentagon that is. now being targeted. by all the usual suspects. And it is the biggest. story in American politics. that people are talking. So if I could sum up what I think.

you're saying, it is that Donald. Trump may have actually broken. the grip of the neocons on. Washington. I mean, you control the Pentagon, you control the military. I mean, it's I mean, it's. Just seems like this is. because there. Was always this question about. Trump. Like, you get up and you give these. Speeches where you say. we don't want more pointless wars. I believe in peace through strength, if not a worse not Jimmy Carter, but. like, you know, you assert American. power, but you don't embroil the. country in wars that you can't win.

for no reason. It's a very moderate, sensible, commonsense, I. would say, view. So you say those things, but then. you hire John Bolton. And the question is why? And Trump would say, I've heard him. say, well, I heard Bolton. I beg your pardon? I heard Bolton because he's a. lunatic and he's. a warmonger freak. He's obviously watching. war porn late at night and people. can smell that on him. And so when he goes into a. negotiation, he scares the crap out. of everybody. And then I show up.

You know, he's the heavy and bad. Cop. He's become. And I've heard him say that. And. And I didn't know if I believe that. or not, but I'm starting to think. that I should've just believed him. because it sounds like Trump's. actual instincts are what he says. they are. Yeah, I mean, the Bolton firing. itself is again, in history, but it circled around an. issue of policy. So I remember. Yeah. So, I mean, Trump had invited the. Taliban, which was then the outlaw, not government of Afghanistan.

as it is today, to. Camp David on. 911. Which is I mean. So Trump invited the Taliban to. camp. He did. He literally did that. I mean, I don't that I mean, I'm. just reporting the facts here. So so that's a great. sentence. Sardar Trump invited the Taliban. So tonight, who's coming for dinner. tonight at Camp David? All the. Taliban will be here. Bolton Bolton. was wiped out before. this meeting, never happened, but it. was the instigating. Incident for the final breakdown.

of their relationship. I do think it's important to just. recognize the inherent hilarity. of a lot of, you know, just it is. in addition to being grave and, you know, historically significant, it's very. Good is quite funny. A lot of it is very sort of funny. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's pretty great. Yeah. So you're you're. very restrained. And businesslike and precise as a. reporter should be. As an editor. should be. But the story that you're. telling, I think I don't put words. in your mouth is a is a. is a story of like real change.

Yeah. Finally, we actually. appear to be getting. to like a foreign policy that puts. America close to the center of the. of the action. Yeah. Is that is that. What you're seeing? No I mean. I mean. I mean, if he sees this. through, this is this is the biggest. presidency, certainly. since Reagan you voted for. I mean, it is moving the ship of. state and. people are going to try to stop him. from doing it. Yes. But they're not they're not going to. they're not going to say that he's. bad, though.

They're good. They're going to go. after him, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I just want to counter signal by. saying I think what you're saying is. true. I think it's real. And I've never admired Trump more. I don't. I don't think I'm an ass. kisser on the prom question, but. this is like, America really needs. this. It's super important and. it's not radical at all. It's not attacking anyone or. canceling our ally. ship with any country at all. It's just. It's. You know, adjusting expectations for.

what we can achieve. The reason I started covering. war on foreign policy principally. is that the reality is. that US domestic policy is a morass. It's impossible to get anything. done. I know. Obama tried to do a health care. plan. They did for six years and. they couldn't even get the website. working. You know, the country is. hard to govern, but externally, our president is imperial. His God. That was. quite literally the most powerful. person on earth. And if. you want to burnish a legacy real.

quick, you do big things in foreign. policy. Well, that's what shocking. That's what all the Republican. senators have figured out. You do surprising things. For John McCain like you're, you know, whatever. You've got a lot. of problems in your personal. and public life. But you can bomb around Eastern. Europe and you're treated like an. emperor. Right. And feel like you're doing. something. You're, you know, Jim. Risch or Mike Rounds or some. like U.S. senator nobody's ever heard of, even. in his home state. But when you travel to Romania to. tornado base, people are like. You know, sheriff is here.

It's like the former legislature. Yeah. So. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And so that's. that's a big that's. A big motivator for our lawmakers, isn't it? Sure. For sure. I mean, yeah. I mean. You go to Idaho Falls and someone's. like. I can't believe you're here. But, you know. Chairman Rich. It's you're rich. It's like such an absurd. It's. Anyway, excuse me. Interesting show.

And I interrupted you because I know. I can't control myself. Zero self-control. On the topic of pizza or neo cons, and I'm just out of control. Tell me your analysis of. Trump canceling the security details. for Brian Hook and Mike. Pompeo. Well, he seems to have the authentic. view that these people can afford. it, especially especially. with Fauci, especially. with Bolton. He specifically flagged. them. Yeah.

And Pompeo, like who's now. running around being like, I'm. actually I'm a businessman. He's on a board of a Ukrainian. company as well. And while he's on, I think, more. than one board, but he's certainly. running around, including with. people I know, saying I'm. a really kind of a business guy. Look, I mean, to the. Pompeo's things, I mean, is like I. mean, it's supremely interesting. because I, you know. I think it's somebody who probably. would have positioned himself to run. in a major way had Trump lost. I think it's somebody who's not. going to quit being president.

I think this is not an unintelligent. man. This is how he's smart. This is yeah, this is a real fight, not. Dumb. Fighter. And. I don't want to say he's part of the. cynical back crowd, but he's making. a bet that the Trump thing will pass. and I will be able to steamroll. people like Vance and even Rubio. in the future because I'm more. vicious. And. in the meantime, you. know, maybe make some money, influence the debate, etc., etc..

And he's very impressive if you. don't know. I mean I mean, I like I mean, if you don't come in with huge. foreign policy convictions, I think. you and I do, he can. be very persuasive. Just for the record, I had no. foreign policy can convictions. I don't think I'm ideological on the. question at all. I just think in general, our foreign. policy, I am the nation. I mean I mean, like I like I. mean, I think that's what's very. interesting about some of these. Pentagon picks and to keep linking. it back while also the vice. president. A lot of people, my generation, the.

millennials fight in these wars. and all of the baby. boomers forget it. We're now old, you know, and we grew up and. are quite mad about it. And it's a it's a it's a bipartisan. thing. It's not just like a. Democrat, you know, anti-Iraq. war Indy music thing. It's like young Republican people. hate it, too. And they might hate it more, actually. Which is actually the. interesting thing. The and the Republican. Party, frankly, might under Trump.

might be a vessel of anti-war. sentiment far more effectively than. the Democrats. I mean, I didn't see. a lot of protests for the Ukraine. war. The Israel stuff was pretty. interesting. And that was probably. was number one threat to Biden circa. April. Remember that for sure. But, you know, if you look at the. conversation online, if you look at. the sentiments of of younger. conservatives, young Republicans, the anti war stuff is big. and it's not going anywhere. And I think that also drives a sense. of a timetable, which is,

you know, we've got these older. people in their 6070s, 80s and 90s. They have a certain beliefs that. they're the people that voted for. the stuff in the 90s and 2000s and. we got to get this stuff done now. before the United States turns. you know on both parties on this. stuff and this was always this was. How we can't afford it anymore. And our allies pivot to China and. sell even more defense technology to. China. Yeah, I do think they're. okay. So with a backbone of.

support for these wars has been. evangelicals, let's just be blunt. about it. It's everyone, you know, beats up on the neo cons or. whatever, these fervent. intellectuals in Washington. But really the foot soldiers of this. have been Fox News viewers who are. not. Ideological. They're not intellectuals. They're not. They're just normal American, patriotic, heavily evangelical. people. And the truth is, I think. a lot of them are beginning to. recognize that their religion does. not support this at all. Yeah. It's really clear. Genesis six.

Why do we have the flood? Why does God kill everything on. earth? All the people except no one. His family, All the animals except. the ones in the ark. What does he do. that spells it right out? Because they're committing violence, that's why. So it's like the idea that. I mean, the Iraq war breaks out and. all these preachers like, no, no, no, really, we have to fight Islam. and kill all these people. And that's what God wants. That's not what it says at all. And there's no mention of any. specific secular government in the. New Testament. Sorry, guys. And I think a lot of Christians are.

beginning to realize it doesn't. because you're Christian doesn't. mean you have a specific political. agenda at all, I don't think. Yeah. But if your political. agenda is like violence. That's prohibited. Sorry. And I have to say, it could not be. clearer. It's on every freaking page. So I don't know. The deception. involved in this was just like, mind. boggling that these preachers could. get up on Fox News and tell you that. like, yeah, killing people is what. Jesus wants. No, that's not true. And I just feel among people I.

know a growing recognition. of that. And I think it's a huge. problem for the war lobby, which has. used these people as its supporters. And you see it in the Congress. You know, I'm an evangelical and I'm. for another war with somebody. No, you can't do that. And I'm hoping people are zoned out. You do think that I. Yeah, I think there are many. countries old, tired, zoned out, can't oppose it. And they're hoping that. these initiatives can be. achieved piecemeal. You know, start by bombing.

Iran here, etc., etc.. Maybe the government will collapse, etc., etc., etc.. To be replaced by. What. the same people who are. Supporting Gaddafi and Saddam. and the Taliban. I think. Okay. I mean, you take the other side. I mean, I mean, the Assad. thing is it's like pretty. close to the best case scenario of. how that could have gone. I think in Iran it would go way, way, way worse. It's a much bigger country. It's hard to know your own the days, you know, you start killing people.

Have things. Go sideways like you think it's. It's pretty close to Iraq and. Afghanistan combined. Right. You had that way to me. You have urban. You have you have. you have the capacity for major. urban violence, all Iraq. You have huge cities. The Kabul small, but you know, you have that. And then. additionally, you have the mountain. element. So any. Any outlaw contingent. can just flee there. I mean, and we learned this before. our southern neighbor. Why is Mexico ungovernable? The mountains. That you. Just just. Just fleet.

I mean, the entire coastline. Right. Why is Kentucky ungovernable? Same reason. Okay. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, so. Just kidding. No, no. I mean, it's. I mean, it's hard to. It would be very, very, very. difficult. And ask Saddam Hussein, who tried to invade Iran and. it didn't work out for Mr. Hussein, that a lot of things didn't. So, no, I agree. completely. Well, you have actually given me. I asked you to come for this. conversation. It's late at night. I was very exercised about it. You were nice enough to come and. work in a hotel room in some city,

but, I thought it was going to be more. depressed by the end. But actually, I feel really. heartened by what you said. Thank you for having me. Well, thank you for making me feel a. lot better. Curt Mills. Thank you.