Cliffe Knechtle Answers Tough Questions About the Bible, Demons, Israel, Judas, Free Will, and Death

two lesbian at Texas State University a couple  years ago, a few years ago, stepped out of the. crowd and said, "Uh, do you love racists?" And I  said, "Absolutely. I love racists. I hate racism. I do not affirm racism, but I affirm the fact  that those racists are human beings created in the. image of God. I don't really give a rip whether  you're Catholic, Greek Orthodox, or Protestant. I. care about what you think about Jesus Christ. Have  you put your faith in him?" And I got a boatload. of Catholic friends who have put their faith  in Christ. a boatload of Greek Orthodox friends.

who put their faith in Christ and a boatload  of Protestant friends who put their faith in. Christ. But it's simply not the issue. There is  a spiritual force of evil that is at work in the. Meli massacre acting on people from outside and  influencing their behavior. It's exactly right. And that's why Jesus cast demons out of people.  For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities,  against the powers of this dark world, against. the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly  realms. There's a spiritual battle that is raging. [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music].

You have been preaching Christianity on  college campuses and answering questions. from skeptical undergrads, some of them very  hostile for 45 years. Am I getting your bio.

correct? You got it. Okay. So, you have seen  this longitudinally over almost five decades. What are the changes that you've noticed and  what is your sense of the current state of. young people? The changes are the following.  moral relativism, relativism in general, has a strangle hold now on people the way it  never used to. Neil deGrasse Tyson once said,

uh, the good thing about science is it's true  whether you believe it or not. Well, guess what, Neil Degrasse Tyson, that's true about all  truth. It's true whether you believe it or not, right? And yet you and I live in a culture where  more and more people say essentially everything's. relative. It doesn't matter what you believe.  And my point is if someone says that to you, take them seriously. Don't believe what they just  said to you. So unfortunately that whole idea of.

relativism, the truth is totally subjective, has  a strangle hold on more and more people's lives. So I've watched that trend continue over the past  45 years. Secondly, wait me up. So 45 years ago. was 1980. Mhm. So you're coming out of the 60s and  70s, right? Um in 19 I sort of remember 1980. It. was a pretty flaky time actually. Y the country  changed during the 80s, but 1980 was still really.

the ' 70s. Yep. So you think there was less moral  relativism then there is now? Well, that's a good. question. I'm not sure of that. But it was not  as clearly articulated. It had not been worked. through philosophically as deeply as it is today.  It was not such a part of a warp and woof of the. uh American mind quite as much. Yes, it definitely  was strong. And to watch that simply grow and.

deepen was frustrating for me to watch. What is  moral relativism? The idea is basically this, Tucker. Who defines right and wrong? I only know  of four options. Either the power elite define. right and wrong or the majority define right  and wrong or I define right and wrong or God. does. Now, if the power elite or the majority  or me defines right and wrong, it is relative.

It's just a creation of the human mind. But if  there is a God whose mind precedes the human mind, then of course this mind, this character of God,  which is good, can define right and wrong, which. turns it into an objective moral absolute. No.  God, morality is a crapshoot. Morality is a taste. What do you like, broccoli or spinach? Well,  this is my taste. Well, what do you like? Loving.

people or hating people? Well, it's my taste. No.  According to Christ and according to the Bible, morality is not just a taste. Instead, human  beings really have innate value and dignity. And. that is why to dehumanize a person and trivialize  a person is really wrong. So moral relativism is. tragic. And yet it basically, as you have said  so many times on your podcast, basically sin. is deifying my opinion, deifying myself, putting  myself at the center of the cosmos, which I could. not agree with more. And a follow of Christ is  someone who's allowing God to be at the center of.

the universe. And that's what worship is. That's  what faith is. Worship is allowing God to drag me. out of the center of the universe and allowing God  to be the center of the universe. Which means all. of a sudden morality is not totally relative. It's  interesting. I I don't and I I'm not a historian. I'm interested, but I'm not trained as one. So  I could be wrong and I'd be welcome I'd welcome. any correction. But I don't think before the 20th  century there was ever a society civilization at.

scale formed on the basis of moral relativism. I  think every society made the claim that our moral. code came from God. Yep. Because I don't think  and and I'm a Christian but I'm of course I'm not. referring to the Babylonians weren't Christians.  You know most civilizations not been Christians. So, but there has to be at least conceptually a  god behind the moral code or else it's not really. a moral code. It's just a preference. Exactly.  And so that just as a practical matter doesn't.

work over time, does it? No, it doesn't. But it  is a neat way to justify me doing whatever I want. to do sexually, morally, in the use of power. I  can do whatever I want to do because there are. no limits. Exactly. And I'm the one who defines  it. And if I define good a particular way today, but I change my mind tomorrow, there's nothing  wrong with it because it's all fluid. Totally. fluid. It's totally arbitrary. It's just a taste.  So today my taste is this. Tomorrow my taste is.

different. It's the opposite. It's not right  or wrong. It just is. What is is. So chill out, Cliff, and just realize it is. So you I think  you just explained why. And many books have been. written on this. Why did the 20th century give  rise to totalitarianism in a way that the world. really had never seen? Now the obvious explanation  is well technology made it possible. Okay, but it has always struck me that's an inadequate  explanation. It may be that societies at scale,

big societies, big civilizations with that don't  acknowledge God inevitably become totalitarian. because there are no limits on the behavior  of the leaders. There's nothing they can't. do. Absolutely. That is what you're saying.  Yes. One of my heroes is Doc Alexander Solsen, the great Russian novelist. Amen. And Alexander  Soulsen at one point in his life thought, you know, it's really the rich that have a problem  with evil. They're the scumballs. But then he was.

put in a goolog in Siberia. And he was living  among very lowincome people. And he was a gasast. at the immorality, the evil of those people. And  suddenly Souls and Eaton woke up to the fact quote. the line separating good from evil does not run  between parties, classes and countries. Rather, the line separating good from evil runs through  every human heart. And then Solzen understood, I need help. I need a savior. And he converted to  Christ. That was sheer brilliance on his part and.

also real sensitivity, I think, to reality. Yeah.  Well, he he learned from what he saw around him, unlike so many of us, right? Um who don't learn  anything. So, you think that this is accelerating? Yes. And what are the manifestations of it? How  do you know that? Well, obviously, when it comes. to the issue of sexuality in our culture, it is  tragic. Absolutely tragic to watch people say,

"I don't know whether I'm male or female, but wait  a second, I'm the one who defines it." because. everything is relative. So if I want to define  myself as an individual or as they and them, that's cool. If I want to be he today, she  tomorrow, they the day after tomorrow, that's. okay. Cuz truth is something I create in my head.  It's simply my perception. So if my perception. today is I'm a he, tomorrow my perception is I'm  a she, and the day after tomorrow my perception.

is I'm a they, that's all equally valid cuz it's  all just a cosmic crapshoot. That's all life is. It's ultimately meaningless because God didn't  create me. No intelligent mind put me here for. a purpose. Life is ultimately meaningless. So,  I'll just create it according to my own desires. It's August and something profound, maybe even  countercultural is happening right now this month. It's called the St. Michael the Archangel Prayer  Challenge. It's available on the Hallow app. Now, before you start, ponder the question. When  was the last time you really confronted your.

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com/tucker. You'll be grateful you did. So, flesh  out why you think that's tragic. I mean, it's. self-evidently silly because you wind up making  claims that are just counter to observable truth. Like, I can change my sex. No, you can't. It's  determined at the DNA level. So, like, no, that's. untrue. So, you could laugh at that. Why do you  call it tragic? I call it tragic because I lose my.

understanding of why you're valuable. And if you  rub me the wrong way, there is nothing that says I. can't cut you off at the knees. And the whole idea  of forgiving is ridiculous. Can you stop this? I I. feel like you're at the heart of something I don't  fully understand, but if you don't mind explaining. it a little more fully. Why does that statement  I can change my sex because I'm self-created. I'm. God of my own life. Why does that affect the way  that I feel about you or you about me? Why does.

that make you less valuable or me less valuable?  It doesn't. But it's based on a philosophy. It's. based on a world view. And that world view says  that we all are cosmic accidents. Which means. we define ourselves. We define our value. We  define our morality. We define everything about. us. Right. Which means I will also define how  I'm going to treat you. Exactly. And if you rub. me the wrong way. And if you cut me off at the  knees, I'm coming after you to teach you never. to do that to me again. And revenge becomes the  modus operendi. Yes, I have never ever heard of a.

purpose for giving a shark for eating his purpose,  friend. But we're not purposes. We're human beings. created in the image of God, which means we have  this ability to reflect the character of God, which is gracious and forgiving and also just and  holy. But he was also forgiving. And he created us. with this incredible ability to forgive and to be  gracious and not just to cut each other off at the. knees. So if you don't believe that other people  have souls, there's really nothing you can't do to.

them. Exactly. Why does it even matter? Exactly.  What's the difference between me stepping on a. cockroach and me stepping on you? You're both  sensient beings. You both are alive. So if I can. step on a cockroach, why can't I step on you? Oh,  now you're going to give me this mythology that, oh, but we're human beings and we have  more value than a cockroach does. Oh, really? I don't think the cockroach feels that  way. Right. To which you say what? Down deep, you know better than that. Down deep, you and  I, I don't care what your worldview is, you know.

that there is something to human value. Down deep  within your heart, within your the depth of your. being, you know that when you hold a little baby  in your hands, you're not holding a cockroach. No. And this is not based on human arrogance. Oh,  I'm just superior to a cockroach. No. This has to. do with some innate intrinsic value of a human  life. But if there is no God, this deep profound. experience that you're having as you hold a little  baby in your hands is just raw emotionalism. It's.

meaningless. And the value, as you just said,  is inherent. It's not just utilitarian. It's not. that the that the baby may grow up and become a  famous scientist who creates a vaccine to prevent. disease. Yep. The value is inherent in the baby  because the baby exists. The baby is valuable. because the baby was created by God. Bingo. You  take God out of the picture and you're up a creek. without a paddle when it comes to explaining to  me why is that baby valuable? Oh, that baby's.

valuable because I have a lot of strong feelings.  Yeah, fine. So, that's your genetic drive, right? As mom and dad to care for your child. Well, guess  what? But I know a lot of deadbeat dads who could. give a rip about their kids. Yeah. So don't give  me this bit that dads have to love their kids. And yet the majority of dads understand that child  is valuable. Okay. So now the question is why? Why. is that child valuable? And I would argue if there  is no god that child is a hunker primordial slime. evolved to a higher order. So don't give me this  gibberish that this child is valuable. instead.

be intellectually consistent and acknowledge  this child is a cosmic accident the same way. I'm a cosmic accident. That's so interesting.  So you you really can't say that any child or. any person is valuable except for the products he  produces or the services he provides. Bingo unless. you acknowledge that he was created by God.  Correct. Cuz where would the value come from? Exactly. And you know where the value comes from  in our culture? the size of your stock portfolio, the size of your bank account, the style style  of your car, the house you live in, the size,

the grandeur of it. And that is so superficial. I  mean, I was once speaking at a women's private can. also say it suggests that if you don't have that  portfolio or that car that you have less value, you are a loser. Right. You're a loser, but you  can also be completely mistreated or killed. Why not? Well, that's happening in the United  States, by the way, to poor people. Exactly. And. we I guess when you frame it the way you did,  we shouldn't be surprised by that. You know,

100,000 people can die every year of fentanyl.  And we're like, yeah, but they're losers. Like, whatever. Who cares? Yep. And that is what we're  saying. Tragic. Because they don't have value. apart from what they produce or own. Exactly.  Damn. I think you just I think you just explained. what's happening. I'm sorry I interrupted you,  but you're you're exploing my brain a little bit. Yeah. I was speaking at a private women's college  in Massachusetts and a woman came up to me with. tears streaming down her cheeks. She said, "You  know, Cliff, you don't know what it's like to walk.

into a frat party and as you walk into the door,  you walk past a group of guys lined up and they're. whispering to each other." Two, four. Yep. Eight.  10. She said, "You have no idea how dehumanizing. that is, Cliff." And I had to look her in the face  and say, "You're right, ma'am. Don't I don't know. experientially how dehumanizing that is, but I can  begin to imagine. That is such a trashy view of. human life. It's scary. But if there is no God,  we're all hunks of primordial slime. We're all.

hunks of meat on a hoof. And if we're proportioned  correctly, we're in 6 8 10. And if we're not, we're four or two. Tragic. What did she say? She  began to seriously consider Christ in a way that. was very exciting. I don't know what ultimately  she decided, but she be she said to me, "L. basically, this this is really beginning to make  more sense than it ever has before." I've noticed.

um a lot that the emphasis in the United States,  and I've always been a right-winger, and I always. made fun of people who braided about the poor and  all that stuff. I was wrong. I just want to say, um but I have noticed that the concern for the  poor in the United States has basically just. evaporated. and that 100 years ago the country was  humming with benevolent associations with what we. would call NOS's basically rich ladies just like  now. Mhm. Um trying to elevate the poor. Take care. of orphan children, teach them English, feed them.  Um and that no longer exists at all. Mhm. And.

could it could that coincide not coincidentally  with the decline in Christianity? Yes, it. absolutely absolutely could. It's a searing of the  human conscience. It's interesting you raise that. issue because this winter and spring like never  before when people ask me difficult theological. questions I try and give a short answer especially  when they start getting into, you know, what about.

the Catholics? What about the Greek Orthodox? What  about the Protestants? You know, don't they really. all have problems? My point is rather simple. My  point is I don't really give a rip whether you're. Catholic, Greek Orthodox, or Protestant. I care  about what you think about Jesus Christ. Have you. put your faith in him? And I got a boatload  of Catholic friends who have put their faith. in Christ, a boatload of Greek Orthodox friends  who put their faith in Christ, and a boatload of. Protestant friends who put their faith in Christ.  But it's simply not the issue. Are you Catholic, Greek, Orthodox, or Protestant? The issue is, have  you put your faith in Christ? Then the issue is,

are you seeking to introduce people to Christ?  And are you seeking to solve one of the biggest. killers in the world today, which is starvation.  If you had a kid who was starving and I say to. you, I'm a follower of Christ and I look at  your starving kid and say, "Good luck." And. I walk away. You have good reason to question the  legitimacy of my faith. I think you do. Yes. If I. have the solution for your starving kid, and it's  called money in my back pocket in my bank account,

and I do nothing to help you with your starving  kid. Oh my goodness. What on earth is going on? So to get all wrapped up in some of these  theological debates, I I just don't want to. spend too much time on because we got a boatload  of work to do. Introducing people to Christ, helping them go from hell to heaven, helping them  grow as people of integrity, people of honesty, people of strong values, and then people who share  their financial resources with those who are less. fortunate and solve the world's starvation  problem. You're effectively a theologian. So,

it's interesting to hear you say, "I don't want to  get caught up in the theology." Well, theology is. very important when it comes to the basics. I like  what Mark Twain said. Mark Twain said, "It's not. the parts of the Bible I don't understand that  disturb me. It's the parts of the Bible that I. do understand that disturb me." Boy, is that  true. Right on, Mark. Well, it's amazing how. many Christians can get caught up in the minutia.  You know, is transubstantiation correct? Should.

I be a Catholic or not? Should I pray to Mary or  not? You know, if someone comes up to me and says, "Cliff, I know you're going through a rough time  and I'm praying to my aunt who was a saint for. you." I'm not going to try and have this hourlong  discussion with them. Why I don't think praying to. your dead aunt is a good use of your time. I'm  going to say, "Thank you for praying to your. aunt. I would encourage people to pray directly to  God, directly to Jesus Christ. But how much time. do I'm going to spend with another person debating  upon whether you should pray to your aunt or not?". I just let's let's focus on the majors, not on  the minors. interesting. Yet, a lot of energy is.

expended on the small stuff. Why is that? I don't  know. Um, I've got some fears, some concerns about. why that is. There's a part of me that understands  it too well, which is I want to be right. And if I. have an opinion, I want you to agree with me.  And if you don't agree with me, I want to try. and convince you to that. And so, there's can be  egotism in there and arrogance. Yes. And I've got. to be very, very careful of that. I mean, I I have  the greatest respect for President Lincoln. During.

the Civil War, a minister came up to him and  said, "Mr. Lincoln, let's pray that God is on our. side in this terrible conflict." And Lincoln shot  back, "Oh, no, no, no, no. Let's pray instead that. we are on God's side, for God's side is always  right." And it's far too easy for me to baptize. my views with, "Oh, this is God's view." Got to  be very suspicious of that. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. It's a cliche for a reason cuz it's  pretty good advice. But sometimes it's not true. Cell phones are a glaring exception. You've got  your cell phone. You've had it for years. You.

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today. That's puretalk.com/tucker to switch to  our wireless company. It's America's wireless. company. It's Pure Talk. Have you ever in your  life discovered that what you thought was God's. view was really your view? Oh, absolutely. And  I've I've watched that in other people. You know, one of the most gut-wrenching experiences for me  during the 70s when I was at Davidson was I lived. in the home of u Billy Graham's sister Jean and  her husband Leighton Ford and I watched the Graham.

family struggle through the Watergate crisis.  Wait, you lived in Billy Graham's daughter's. house? Sisters home on the weekends. Just on the  weekends, Leighton Ford became like a father in. the Lord to me and his wife Jeanie who was Billy  Graham's sister was like became like a mother in. the Lord to me. And so I had a front row seat  for watching Dr. Graham realize I think I went. too far with Richard Nixon. Wow. So you were there  in 7374. Correct. Mhm. What was that like? Well,

it was a rather intense educational experience  to put it mildly in terms of what are you going. to spend your life doing? I had the utmost respect  for Billy Graham. That guy was incredible. I mean, the temptations that that guy had to deal with, I  will never have to deal with. The, you know, the. opportunities to really mess up, he had them all  over the place. And his integrity was incredible, and I have the utmost respect for him. But to  watch him agonize through this issue of how close.

did I get to Richard Nixon? How much did I endorse  him? And was that the wisest use of my time? I respect Nixon and Graham for the way they  maintained their friendship till Nixon's death. I also respect Nixon the way he told some of his  handlers to keep Graham away from me. I don't want. to sully him any more than I have. So, I respect  that. But I also respect Graham for realizing God. called me to preach the gospel. I got to be real  careful how much I hop into bed with politicians.

Amen. But I mean I guess the the counterargument  would I well let me just say I agree with you. completely but I also see the compelling argument  on the other side which is that I have influence. Yep. I think I'm influencing people on behalf of  what is true and good and I have this chance to. influence the president of the United States.  Like why wouldn't I take that? What do you. think of that argument? I think that argument is  absolutely correct. But then the question becomes.

how strongly do you endorse the individual right  because the individual is a sinner the same way. I am the same way we all are and the individual  is going to make a mist make mistakes going to. sin how closely do I want to wed that individual  with Christ when it comes to communicating Christ. to people and that's a real challenge that  I face one of my best lines is I am a dirty. rotten sinner and what I'm seeking to smash is  the stereotype that a Christian is someone who.

claims to be morally superior to everybody else.  That's a lie. I'm a follower of Christ because. I need God's forgiveness because I've messed up.  And if I ever forget that and if I think that my. faith in Christ has produced a morally superior  person named Cliff Klay, I have parted company. with reality. Amazing grace, how sweet the sound  that saved a wretch like me. I once was lost but. now I'm found. Was blind but now I see. Yeah,  that's where it's at. A story Tucker that I use.

a lot is Truth and Reconciliation Commission after  a parttheid was being taken apart in South Africa. Officer Vanderwood was at one end of the court  and a black South African woman was at the other. end of court and the Truth and Reconciliation  Commission looked into the face of the black. South African and said, "Ma'am, this officer  went to your township, arrested your husband,

brought him outside the township, partied, and  roasted him over a fire till he was burned to. death." One year later, they did the same thing  to your son. came to your home, arrested your son, took him out to a party outside the town and  burned him to death. Now, what do you want us to. do with this white police officer? And this black  South African woman said, "I got three requests. First request is, I want this white police officer  to take me to the place where he burned my husband.

and my son to death so that I can gather up  their ashes and give them a proper burial.". Second request is I want this white police officer  to come to my township once a month and allow me. to mother him cuz I got a lot of mothering left  in me and he's taken my family away from me. And. the third thing is I want you to allow me to walk  across this courtroom now and give him a hug to. try and convince him that my forgiveness of him is  genuine and real. And the Truth and Reconciliation.

Commission said, "Yes, go ahead." This black  South African woman stands up and as she's. walking across the courtroom to this man who was  responsible for the murder of her husband and son, a person starts singing, "Amazing grace, how  sweet this sound that saved a wretch like me. I once was lost but now I'm found. Was blind but  now I see." That's the gospel of Jesus Christ.

That's pretty far from what anyone  naturally wants or believes. So, I mean, how do you make the case that  acting against your own impulses, against. your own instincts is good? Like, why? That's  pretty radical. That's more radical, I think, than we appreciate normally. Absolutely correct.  It's totally radical. And so is me getting. on a diet when the doctor says to me, "You're  getting close to being diabetic, Cliff." Yeah,

I got to cut ice cream out. I don't want to do  that. But if I want to play with my grandchildren. 10 years from now, I better do that. Yeah. So,  I'm free. I'm free to eat ice cream every night, a whole bowl full of it, or a pint of it,  whatever. Or I'm free to diet. I'm free to. do that in order to play with my grandchildren  10 years from now. Yeah. If I want to get a good. education, I've got to discipline myself. And if  I want to play basketball at Davidson College,

I'm really going to have to discipline myself cuz  I don't have the innate talent to do that. So, yeah, if I want to achieve excellence in life,  I'm going to have to discipline myself and put. myself through some things that I don't naturally  want to do. And that's what we call living a wise. life of excellence of using the gifts that God  has given me to make a difference in this world. for good of using this incredible body that God  has blessed me with to serve God by serving people. more effectively to develop this amazing mind  the most powerful muscle in our body that God has.

given me by developing that mind so I can think  more clearly and help more people. Yeah, I don't. necessarily want to do that but it's what's best.  It's what's wisest, so therefore I want to do it. What kind of push back do you get from students  when you say things like that? Uh, two lesbian at. Texas State University a couple years ago, a few  years ago, stepped out of the crowd and said, "Uh, do you love racists?" And I said, "Absolutely. I  love racists. I hate racism, but I love racists.

They're human beings created in the image of  God." And these two lesbians erupted. you're. an idiot. There's no way that you should be  loving a racist." And I said, "Ladies, you're. really getting mixed up here. There are some very  sinful parts of me. I do not affirm those parts. I. hate those parts, but I affirm my value as a human  being created in the image of God. I do not affirm. racism, but I affirm the fact that those racists  are human beings created in the image of God.

And I've got some former murderers coming to the  church where I pastor. I abhore their murdering a. human being. But I still respect them as human  beings created in the image of God. And when I. worked in a Lawrence County house of correction in  Lawrence, Massachusetts while I was in seminary, the first visit I would make every Monday night  was into the cell of a guy in protective custody. who was there for kidnapping little boys, sexually  abusing them and murdering them and burring them. And after spending an hour with him, talking with  him, reading the Bible, praying with him, I would.

go to the gymnasium to play basketball. And the  other inmates would come up to me and say, "Hey, man. Don't you know what a piece of dirt he is?  How dare you spend any time in his cell talking. with him." And I said, "Sers, I abhore what he did  to those boys, but I can promise you in spite of. how he has messed up and defaced the image of  God in him, he is still a human being created. in the image of God. And I will seek to reach out  to him to offer God's grace and forgiveness to one.

confused, messed up man." How'd they respond?  They got quizzical looks on their faces. Some. of them laughed and I understand that because that  is foreign and it is absurd and as you pointed out. it's really radical the way Jesus taught that. But  that's part of why we have so many lonely people. in our society today because we live in a cancel  culture which means you rub me the wrong way and. I cancel you. Well, guess what? Everybody's going  to rub me the wrong way at some point. Yeah. And.

if I'm just going around counseling people, I'm  going to be a very lonely, isolated person. If I. don't learn to forgive, I will be alone. Intimacy  is based on the ability to forgive and to accept. people who are different and who've hurt you.  Yes, that is such a that is such a wise point. You. know, if you think you're the only virtuous person  in the world, first, you're an idiot, but second, you will have no one at dinner. Yeah, it's exactly  right. Yeah. No, I think that's really wise. But a.

child molester, really, shouldn't there be limits  to humanity? Like at some point, do you lose your. humanity? I guess what you're saying is no. You  deface it. Yes. And obviously some of us have. defaced it in very, very unusual, grotesque ways.  But we all have defaced it to some extent. I have. No, I've never committed the sins that that man  committed that I would visit every Monday night. But I've lusted. I've been greedy. I've hated.  I've had subtle racist attitudes. I've been sexist.

chauvinistic in my own unique way, sophisticated  way. So, I'm not this wonderful person that I wish. that everyone believed that I am. No, Souls and  Eaton was correct. The line separating good from. evil runs through every human heart, including  this guy's heart. Hate to brag, but we're pretty. confident this show is the most vehemently  pro- dog podcast you're ever going to see. We can take or leave some people, but dogs are  non-negotiable. They are the best. They really are. our best friends. And so for that reason, we're  thrilled to have a new partner called Dutch Pet.

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Visit dutch.com/tucker to learn more. Use the code  Tucker for 50 bucks off your veterinary care per. year. Your dogs, your cats, and your wallet will  thank you. What did the lesbians of Texas State. say when you told them that you love racists? They  were outraged. They said, "That's impossible." And. I said, "Laz, from your perspective, I understand  why. If there is no God, forgiveness is stupid. You don't forgive people. You teach him not  to do that to you again. But if there is a.

God who's forgiven you, then you'd be very wise  to be godlike in the way you forgive others.". That's not the message of the Old Testament, which  I read last year and was pretty shocked by, as I. think many people who read it are shocked by the  violence in it and shocked by the revenge in it, the the genocide in it. Um, what do you make of  that? I understand why you say what you just said, but to be honest with you, Tucker, I disagree.  I think what you see in the Old Testament is the.

judgment of God. It's not genocide. Instead, God  chose to use the Jews to judge the Amalachites, the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Stelactites,  all the other types. But remember, a few hundred. years later, he used first the Assyrians and  then the Babylonians to judge the Jews. Why? To commit genocide? No, no, no, no. to judge them  for sacrificing their babies on altars, which is.

the same thing the Hittites and the Canaanites  and the Philistines were doing. And God says, "You pervert the worship of me in that way to the  point of sacrificing your child on an altar to me, you will be judged for it." And he judged  first those Hittites and Amorites and Agites, and then he judged the Jews for that kind of  evil. You see, I think the real question, Tucker, is do we give God the right to judge? Now, here's  what's fascinating about this issue for me. When.

I step onto a state university campus, I know that  the majority of professors are going to basically. say, "Cliff, if you abuse a young African-American  kid," and the police come up to you and they say, "What are you doing, Cliff?" And I said, "Well,  this kid deserved it. I just beat him to a pulp.". If the police officer looks at me and says,  "Let's go to Starbucks together." You all would. be outraged. What incredible racism. What amazing  injustice. Good. Don't make the same mistake with.

God. If you define God as being love, loveydovey,  and expect him not to judge me for whooping up on. the African-American kid, if you expect God not to  judge me for my evil, then let's be real honest. That kid doesn't matter to God. The same way  if the police say to me, "Let's go to Starbucks. after I whoop up on an African-American kid,"  they're saying something very clearly, "Cliff,

that little African-American kid does not  matter." If God doesn't judge, he does not. love. If God doesn't judge, it means people do  not matter to God. And the opposite is true. People matter to God. And therefore, when we mess  with each other's heads and bodies, he judges us. I don't however see the message of forgiveness  between people in the Old Testament in the. way that I see it in the New Testament does seem  like there was a change. I mean no one in the Old.

Testament that I read was saying turn the other  cheek. Okay. That you can't be forgiven until you. forgive which are like central messages obviously  of Jesus. So it does it I mean that seems like a. change to me. Okay. I would agree with you that  indeed it's not articulated quite as clearly as it. is in the New Testament. But gosh, you got to read  the book of Hosea. Hosea is married to a woman. named Goomer. Oh yes. They have a little baby and  Hosea is holding that little baby in his hands and. all of a sudden he realizes, "I ain't the daddy."  Yeah. Number two child, same thing. Number three.

child, same thing. Hosea is holding that little  kid in his hands and all of a sudden he realizes, "I ain't the daddy." It gets to the point where  Hosea has to go down to the slave market to. barter against other men to buy back his wife.  And God is banging on Hosea's doors, saying, "Hosea, do you know the pain that you experience  over your wife's sexual unfaithfulness? Well, that is the same pain that I experience over  human beings who've been unfaithful to me,

who I created to love me and live in relationship  with me, and they turn their backs on me. I am a. suffering God. I hurt over that. But I am  a gracious God who offers forgiveness.". God's patience with a stubborn Israelite people  is incredible. They deserved his wrath long before. they got it at the hands of the Assyrians and  Babylonians. So you think that they were required. to forgive in the same way that Jesus required  his disciples and followers to forgive. But it. was not articulated as clearly. You're absolutely  correct. It was not articulated as clearly but.

the seeds of it are all there. I mean, God when he  confronts Adam and Eve in Genesis chapter 3 after. their rebellion, God bless you. Oh, thank you. You  are just the man to send a blessing of God to a. sneezing podcast host. Thank you. So, God is very  gracious to Adam and Eve. God is very gracious to. Cain after he kills his brother Abel. He doesn't  wipe him out. He puts a mark on him and says, "No,

okay, now you keep going through this thing  called life." God is incredibly gracious to. Abraham who says to Pharaoh, "This woman Sarah,  she ain't my wife. She's my sister. So, of course, you can take her to be part of your herum." He  said that twice. Two different two different. cases. I was I was shocked by that and not  impressed. I just got to be honest. Like, everyone loves Abraham, but what what I know it's  amazing. I know. I know. They never taught that in.

my church. God is clearly gracious and forgiving.  He created people and he wants them to thrive. I. got that message all throughout the Old Testament.  What I didn't get was the command that people. should be gracious to each other. Didn't get that.  Mhm. Whereas that is kind of at the heart of the. New Testament. Yes. I don't see that in the Old  But I'm no scholar. I just read it once. No, but. but you're right. There is a lot more barbarism  in the Old Testament. And I think a lot of that.

has to do with culture. I mean, let's be honest,  Tucker. I don't think that you and I are talking. to each other the way we are by accident. I think  there are a lot of reasons. And I think one of the. reasons is that you grew up where you did, and I  grew up where I did. And you and I were privileged. to have a lot of wonderful people pour some very  good teaching into our lives. We grew up where. respecting each other was valued. And I think you  and I are the beneficiaries of that. For sure. I. know I am. I certainly am myself. But when you  go into a different culture where there are not.

those kind of practices and good habits, I think  that there's a lot of problems that start rising. rather quickly. That is why I'm a lot more patient  with people who grew up where dad was just a a. monger just roasted his kids. Y was so cruel. I'm  a lot more patient in understanding those people. than those people who grew up in homes where  they had a mom and a dad who really loved them. and cared for them. Yes. Um, so you think the  culture changed the culture read about in the.

Bible? Yes. Correct. Big culture changes. Big. So  the questions that you get from students in 2025, how are they different from the ones you got from  students in 1980? There's an amazing similarity. The biggest difference is the emotional change.  My dad grew up in Switzerland. When my dad was 18,

he had a gun sitting up in the Alps as he watched  Hitler's Panzer divisions approach Switzerland. My. grandpa was on the front lines with his gun. They  didn't know whether those Panzer divisions were to. crash into Switzerland or not. The gossip  is that Mussolini called Hitler and said, "My money is in Switzerland. Let's not go into  there." For whatever reason, those Panza divisions. stopped and did not go into Switzerland. But  that's what my dad had to deal with. Can I also. say that the Swiss shot down American airplanes?  A bunch of them. They shot down Absolutely they.

did. They they killed a lot of Allied airmen. Wow.  You couldn't fly over Switzerland. And the Swiss. were like pretty determined to enforce that rule.  Wow. Being like orary mountain people, which they. definitely are. And Yeah. Yeah. No, they didn't  want anyone in Switzerland, period. Right. Sorry. It's my favorite fact. And I don't want it to  be lost in history. Yeah, I do too. I mean, I'm not for killing American men, of course, but  I am for sort of independence. Yeah. Yeah. That's. excellent. Sorry to interrupt. Okay. So, that's  what my dad went through as an 18-year-old. I was.

speaking on campuses when President Trump won the  first time. Yes. And I watched 18 year and 19 year. olds and 20 year olds go for grief counseling  because Donald Trump won. That's amazing. You. talk about emotionally fragile. Yes. the the  difference between a guy sitting up in the Alps. watching Hitler's panzer divisions come Yes.  and having to have the emotional courage and. the emotional strength to handle that versus I got  to go to a crying room because Donald Trump just.

won the election. I mean that's pathetic. That is  that is tragic. Yes. If you're serious about ALP, and we are, you need a serious way to carry it.  Introducing the ALP travel tin. It's engineered. right here in the United States in the state  of Montana by our friends at Machinein USA. It. is milled from solid metal. It's got the world's  first tactile feedback retention mechanism. It's. true. That sounds cool, too. Feels like closing  the door on your truck. Kathunk. It's solid. This.

h comes in cream, gray, green, and black. And  it is built to last. Your grandchildren will. fight over this at your funeral. Throw it in  your bag, drop it on the concrete, run over it. with the truck. It'll still be there looking good  and holding your out. So you notice that in the. questions that you get, people feel more on edge.  Yes. There's an emotional sensitivity that I think. at times is sad. Where do you think that comes  from? Well, I think it comes from a lot of things.

I think I think it comes from the breakdown of the  home. If you don't understand love and experience. love at an early age, and if you don't begin  to understand that at the heart of the cosmos, there's a God who really loves you. If you don't  really begin to understand that Jesus loves me, this I know for the Bible tells me so. And if you  think your value really depends on you winning. a ball game, you winning a deal, you having a  bigger bank account than your competitor. I mean, good gracious, how insecure. And so there's  tremendous insecurity that comes from thinking. that my value depends upon whether my body's a  2, 4, 6, 8, or 10. I mean, you think about that.

I mean, you think about my value depends  upon whether I can put a better selfie up, whether I can post a better selfie to appear  to be more together than you are. I mean, you talk about emotional fragility, you talk  about identity crisis. I mean, it's scary. So, the breakdown of the family, the whole emphasis  of materialism, which is, yeah, it's all about. how you look and how much you own. Yeah. You  build your life on that and come on, things are.

going to crumble fairly quickly unless you're very  successful and then you get to be where Tom Brady. is and you ask, "Okay, six Super Bowl rings. Now  what do I do?" Right. What's it all about, Alfie? I mean, exactly. Yeah. Winning is often the worst  thing for a man, I've noticed. Yeah. Um because. it it shows in stark relief the the limits of this  world, like, doesn't it? Yeah. Well, sure. I mean, you got everything you wanted and you're still not  fulfilled. So, like, what else is there? Exactly.

No, I've seen that a lot. I've experienced  it to some extent. Same here. Yeah. Um, so when you say they're more fragile when they ask  you questions, like how what do you mean? Like, how do you know they're more fragile? How do they  behave? I have to be more careful. Do I answer. their questions? In the 80s and 90s, I used to be  able to come back more strongly. Now I have to be. careful that I'm not going to blow people out of  the water emotionally. Really? Mhm. Because then.

I lose their ear. So like in the 80s you would  just be like at Wesley and you'd be like you're. going to hell. But you can't say that now. Well I  wouldn't say that even in the 80s. Even at Wesian. Well I never was at Wesleyan but I was at Welsley.  Oh man. I went to Smith. Spoke at Smith. Oh my. goodness. What was that like? Oh that was painful.  That was embarrassing. Can you imagine? I, a white. male, standing up at Smith College and telling  women that they needed to accept Jesus Christ as.

their Lord and Savior. That did not go well. You  didn't win a lot of souls that day. No, we did not. see many people say, "Oh, that's interesting. I'd  love to talk more with you." Welsley was a little. different, but boy, Smith was intense. A lot of  happy people at Smith. Yeah. A lot of joy there. Sorry. I'm afraid you nailed that one. I mean,  you know, I think it's fair to judge a worldview, a religion, a commitment of any kind by its fruit,  right? I mean, well put. And well, I'm stealing.

the line, but I think it's applicable just to the  world. Right. If it's so great, show me how great. it is by the way that you yourself live. Exactly.  And if people are I haven't been to Smith in a. long time. Last time I was there, I picked up  a hitchhiker outside at skates. Um, but it was. miserable in the 80s when I was last there. I'm  sure it's miserable now. And so that's like kind. of a bad advertisement for whatever belief system  they're buying into, isn't it? I certainly would.

agree with that. Yeah, it's exactly right. So then  this leads to my sort of meta question which is. why does everyone hate Christianity so much when  there are certainly a lot of lousy Christians. um and hypocrites of course using the church for  their own ends and they're televangelists and you. know whatever I could go on and on and on kid  touchers but generally rank and file Christians.

are everyone knows this way happier than everybody  else. Mhm. So why is everyone mad at them? Well, I have a good reason to be mad at God. God  impinges on my freedom to do whatever I want. Ah, okay. I don't want you telling me, Tucker, what I  should do, and I don't want God telling me what I. should do. I don't want anybody telling me what  to do because I bought into a false definition. of freedom, which is freedom means doing whatever  you want to do. It's not true. But no one no one.

believes it. There's not one person on the planet  who believes you should do whatever you want to. do. Everybody has a strict belief system. The  ladies who confronted you about loving racists, like their religion tells them that racists are  not human. Whatever a racist is, by the way, but and you're required to hate them. So, they've  got their own rules, too. Well, everybody has. their own rules. Yep. Christianity is no different  from secular liberalism. It's no different from. Buddhism or or communism or in the sense that  it has a code, a moral code. Mhm. And people.

who step outside it are apostates. So that's  just that's the nature of moral codes. Yep. I. think the difference is that Christians seem like  pretty happy, pretty joyful, pretty light. Mhm. Uh. certainly lighter than the ladies of Smith. So So  like why are people mad at them for that? I don't. get it. Yeah. Well, God is offensive. That  in that God tells me what is right sexually, what is right financially, what is right when it  comes to use of power. And I would just assume not.

believe in a being who can see through the keyhole  into my life. I'd like to put my finger over the. keyhole and say there is no God who really sees  me, who's going to hold me responsible. Come on. The day of judgment is intimidating. The idea  that I'm going to be the difference, right? And. have to give an answer for my life. I mean, gosh.  But that's where the cross of Christ comes in so. powerfully. He bled and died on a cross to forgive  me, to wash away my sin, to give me eternal life. And my confidence is in him, not in myself, in  my moral rectitude. So is it the challenge of.

judgment? Is that what makes people mad? It's part  of it. You think there's a supernatural element. here? Absolutely. I do notice that like the free  to be you and me people I've always kind of been. a free to be you and me person by the way for  the record don't actually want to convert anyone. at gunpoint to anything right um but they draw  the line at Christianity like they you know you.

can free to be whatever you want but the Jesus  people aren't allowed right I have noticed that. I but what I've noticed about you Tucker is you  enjoy shooting guns Yeah. You don't want anybody. telling you I can't shoot guns. I definitely don't  want anyone telling me I can't shoot guns. Yeah, that is that is definitely true. You got me. But  one of the things I respect that I've heard you. say several times is, "And I am committed to  my wife." Yeah, I am. And I don't have respect.

for a lot of politicians who have a real hard time  understanding what commitment to their wife means. Yeah. Well, I'm afraid those politicians would  argue, "Yeah, I'm sexually free. And why are you. so limited to one woman, Tucker, and I think Jesus  Christ was spot on, and I think you're very wise. to make the decisions you have. Yeah. And to put a  finer point on, it's not just that I don't respect. them for cheating, though. Yeah, I think that's  wrong, but I don't respect them for not paying.

any attention. I I think if you're I I look at  someone who wants to make decisions for hundreds. of millions of people whose wife is desperately  unhappy and I'm like if you can't even make her. happy, how are you presuming to make decisions  for me? Well put. I'm well I mean that. And not. just the wife, the children. If your kids don't  respect you, if your wife doesn't respect you, why should I respect you? Yep. And I absolutely  mean that. And I know so I mean everyone has like. whatever problems in their marri you know life  is long and people screw up and all this stuff. and try not to be too judgmental about it but  longterm if your wife is not impressed by you.

why should I be? Yep. And I think that's totally  fair. I don't think that's judgy. And and by the. way it's okay if your wife doesn't respect you.  Just don't try to control my country. Yeah. Fair. Like why should you have a leadership position?  Yep. I don't know. I mean, that that's anyway, that's my position on it. But I I just think it's  interesting that Christianity is the one thing.

that um that a certain sort of modern mindset  won't tolerate. Yep. Any other religion is. fine. Christianity not allowed. Fascinating. And  that to me is evidence that it's true. Very good. I like that, Tucker. I don't know, but I'm just  guessing. But you also alluded to the spiritual. battle that we are in. Yeah. And uh anybody  has a problem with the devil, with the demonic, I would encourage them to read M. Scott Pek, the  great Connecticut psychiatrist book, People of.

the Lie. Amazing book, isn't it? And I think he  does an incredible job pointing out if you look. at the Mei massacre and you walk away saying,  "Oh, that was just human beings messing up.". You're out of touch with reality, bud. There is  a spiritual force of evil that is at work in the. Meli massacre acting on people from outside and  influencing their behavior. It's exactly right. And that's why Jesus cast demons out of people.  It's why Paul writes in Ephesians chapter 6,

for our struggle is not against flesh and blood,  but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world, against  the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly. realms. There's a spiritual battle that is raging.  And whether it's Paul, Jesus, or M. Scott Peek, they're all saying the same thing. Open your  eyes and realize there's this personal force. of evil called Satan. CS Lewis put it beautifully  when he pointed out, "There are two mistakes you. can make in your thinking about the devil. One is  to make too much of him." Oh, the devil's behind.

every tree. Devil always does it. Everything's  the result of the devil's doing. That's to make. too much of him. But the other is to make too  little of him. Oh, you know who the devil is? The. little dude in a red jumpsuit with little black  pitchfork and black ears. Haha. What a ridiculous. stereotype. No, the devil is a very suave, very  deboner, personal force of evil who reeks of evil. and destructiveness. That's scary. It's a I I  think everything you said is true and I think.

every honest person can feel it. No matter what  your religious faith, we are being acted on from. the outside by unseen forces all the time. Mhm.  And um it's our job to resist or obey depending. on the force of course but but the message in some  ways exculpatory though I think I mean it's not a. it's not a an entirely judgmental message. It's  like actually you are a you being acted on by. outside pawn is probably too strong but you're  still I mean Judas betrays Jesus and then dies.

Yep. On the other hand it says really clearly  he Satan enters him. Yep. So he's like a bad guy. stealing money from the other 11 and all that for  sure. I'm not defending Judas of course, but he is. also in some sense like he he exists to fulfill  a prophecy. He is kind of in some ways like. uh not fully uh a player. He's I don't want to  say victim, but do you see what I'm saying? Mhm.

That's a issue that a lot of people raise. How can  there be free will and God be sovereign and all. powerful? What's going on here? Who's pulling the  levers? Often a passage out of Exodus is brought. up is the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart. So, did  Pharaoh really have a choice in the matter? Six. times before we read in Exodus, the Lord  hardened Pharaoh's heart. We read Pharaoh. hardened his heart. Yes. No, that's right. So,  I think we got to be careful with this one. Yes,

God is all powerful, but I agree with CS  Lewis that God chose to partially limit. his power by giving us a free will. If I haul  back, slap you in the face, and then say, "Oh, Tucker, God made me do it. You know, I'm a conn  artist. I'm a hypocrite. I'm a liar. God gave me. a hand. He gave me the hand to respect you, to  love you. But because he gave me a free will, I can roll this hand into a fist and send it  crashing into your handsome face. And if I.

blame God, I'm a con artist. I'm a liar. So,  I would argue that yes, God is all powerful, but God has chosen to partially limit his power by  giving us free will. Why didn't God have Hitler's. mother have a miscarriage? I don't know. Seems  to me it would have saved a lot of lives. But. God has chosen to limit his power by giving  us a free will. Now, the day of judgment is. coming when God will hold me responsible for  the way I exercised my free will. So, I'm not.

just free to go out and do whatever and never be  held responsible. I am responsible for what I do. And God will guarantee that justice ultimately  triumphs for there will be a day of judgment. The lesson that I take from the Mai mask here  talking the Scott Peek book. Did you know him. by the way? Scott Peek. No. You live in  Connecticut. So, I just thought Did you. I never met Scott Beck. Um he's gone now, but uh  amazing amazing. Yes. Uh and complicated person,

but insight really insightful person. Um  the fact that a Connecticut psychiatrist. could could wind up writing a book like that.  No kidding. Yeah. Not He did not play to type, right? But the lesson that I take from the MLI  massacre is these were like or Cali and the rest. of them pretty ordinary guys. Like I don't think  they had histories of mass murder before they got. to Vietnam. Yeah. And yet they wind up committing  just that and murdering women and children and it. was murder. Mhm. The lesson that I take is that  like any of us is capable of that including me.

Correct. And so the temptation is to when you  see somebody doing something really awful like. I would never do that. Mhm. I try to remind  myself I think we all should that like under. certain circumstances I'd probably do anything.  Yep. Same here. And I think that's true. Yep. So. what is that? What does that tell us about people?  Well, this is where a lot of people have trouble.

with the Bible. The whole issue of a sinful  nature, right? Dallas Willard used to be head. of the philosophy department at USC out in Los  Angeles. And the way Dallas Willard des described. the sinful nature was a readiness to sin factor.  We're all born with a readiness to sin factor. When I was six years old and playing with a little  friend of mine in the sandbox. At one point,

I picked up the metal truck and dropped it on the  little kid's head. I had never seen that behavior. modeled before. Did he deserve it? No. Yeah. He  offended me. Yeah. and I exaggerated the offense, took too great an offense at it, and dropped  the metal truck on his head. Pretty sad. So, yes, we're all born in the image of God. We all  have a conscience, this innate moral indicator,

but we also have this readiness to sin factor. And  that is part of the human dilemma. And guess what? It's part of why Bla1 Pascal believed in Jesus  because Bla1 Pascal understood the glory and the. wretchedness of the human being and it's one of  the reasons I do. My observation and my experience. of reality is everybody does incredible good at  times. Yes. And everybody does incredible evil. at times. Yeah, that's that's correct. I mean,  I referred to my dad earlier, Tucker. When my.

dad was a Swiss Boy Scout, he was walking through  the Alps with his Boy Scout troop one day and they. bumped into a group of Nazi officers. Now, I don't  know if this is true, Tucker, but supposedly one. of those Nazis was Adolf Hitler himself. Hitler  did not cut my dad off at the knees. Hitler was. very gracious to my father as a little Swiss boy  scout. And then he went ahead and did some of the. most horrible atrocities imaginable. All of us  have incredible potential for good and all of.

us have tremendous potential for evil. That's so  obviously true and anyone um you know old enough. to observe the world knows that. Yeah. Observe  himself knows that. Mhm. Why did you say that. people have problems with that statement? Do you  get resistance to that optimism? Because there's. a type of evolutionary optimism that says we've  been evolving for a long long time and we're at.

the point where we are really good people. Really?  Oh, is it? Is that right, Cliff? Okay. And even. Rouso, the Frenchman, thought we were all born  perfect and it was society that corrupted us. The fascinating thing is Rouso had his nanny dump  five of his kids on the steps of the hospital, disowning his kids so they could either be adopted  or starve to death. Wow. We're all born perfect.

Is that right, Jean? Jacqu Rouso? I doubt it. It's  funny. I mean, things have changed so much that. Rouso was taken seriously when I was a child.  We we read Russo. Yeah. I I don't think anyone. knows who Rouso is now anyway because everyone's  on TikTok, but um I I think Rouso is like regarded. as a villain and an idiot by most people now.  No. Or maybe I'm just too in my own world. No, I I understand. Can I ask you a question? I  just want to go back and have you flesh out. a little bit more. What kind of reactions do  you get from students when you say people are.

not inherently all good? Tucker, if you were my  son and I were to try and convince you, Tucker, you really do have innate value. But there is no  God who made you. But you do have innate value. You do have real value, Tucker. Do you get it,  Tucker? You're valuable. You're the greatest. You. are the greatest. And I want you to go home now,  Tucker, and I want you to repeat that to yourself.

100 times. I am the greatest. I am the greatest.  I am the greatest. And you and I live in a culture. that is so filled with that type of thinking  that we just have to affirm ourselves, affirm. ourselves, affirm ourselves to try and convince  ourselves that we really do have value. And that's. a short walk into fantasy land. Well, it's also  so obviously not true. Mhm. That it creates a lot. of inner tension and anxiety in the person who's  hearing it. Bingo. cuz you know you're not the.

greatest actually. And you you know who you are  on some level. Yep. Maybe not all the details, but you know you're a mixed bag like everybody.  Yep. And so to have to to live in a lie like that. makes you tense. Doesn't it? I think it does. I  think it does also. Um so when but so when you say. that people get their dander up. Oh absolutely.  What do they say? You are so judgmental calling.

me a sinner. Who do you think you are? What  do you say? Do you support the law that says. equal housing opportunity? Do you respect a law  that says I'm not allowed to be biased against. people of different ethnic heritages when I rent  my apartment? Yeah, I think you do, don't you? And so do I. We all have to make judgments. So  please don't tell me you don't make judgments.

We all make judgments and we better make judgments  between what is good and what is evil. Now, obviously the difficult ethical question is  what is good and what is evil. Where should. we draw the boundary lines? But please don't tell  me that I'm being judgmental. You're just as much. judge judgmental as I am. And when Jesus says,  "Judge not, lest you be judged," he's not saying, "Suspend your critical thinking and blindly  accept everything is equally valid." Baloney. 14 verses later in Matthew 7:15, Jesus says,  "Beware of false prophets. They come to you in.

sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious  wolves, and they will eat your lunch, guys. So. don't be gullible." You got to be skeptical,  Jesus is teaching. Why? Because good and evil. are so intertwined in this messed up world we  live in, that if you're not skeptical, you'll. get ripped off. Don't do that. It's not smart. So  again, you're just making the point that everybody. has a kind of strict religion. Yes. But you know,  only one is true, which is your position and the.

rest are just silly. Well, I'm not trying to say  that only one is true mine because I've made a. lot of mistakes when it comes to defining right  and wrong. What I am saying is because there's. a supernatural God whose character is good.  Therefore, throughout eternity, good is real. objectively real. It's not a subjective taste.  It's real. And God has hardwired you and me in. such a way that we have consciences and rational  minds. And by exercising our consciences and.

rational minds in a responsible way, we can really  begin to understand what is good and what is evil. I mean, Tucker, to be honest with you, the biggest  ethical dilemma that I face in life is in light of. the fact that we have the solution for starving  babies, why do I keep as much money for myself? Why do I not give more away? So, for me to come  riding into town on some ethical high horse is a.

little ridiculous because I've got my own blind  spots. I have got my own prejudices. But what I. seek to do, Tucker, is to point people to Jesus  Christ, to point people to have a relationship. with him, to pray to him for wisdom, to ask his  Holy Spirit, to sensitize their consciences, so they can begin to distinguish between what is  good and what is evil, what is morally responsible. and what is morally irresponsible. I bet you get  a lot of questions about gays and abortion. Yes.

So, let's go in order. What kind of questions  do you get about gays and how do you respond? My first point is I have to apologize to the  gay lesbian population for the way they have. been viewed in as inferior pieces of dirt  by certain quote Christians unquote. That is. false. Gay bashing is not an option for a fall  of Christ because a fall of Christ understands. all people are created in the image of God.  That is the basis for our value and dignity.

Second point, the Bible insists that all of us  were created for a purpose. And according to. Christ, the purpose of life is to love God  with your heart, soul, mind, and strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself. In the  same way that God made us for a purpose, he made. our sexuality for a purpose. And we read about  this in Genesis 2:24. We read, "For this reason, a man shall leave his father and mother, be united  to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.".

So, it's not the federal government that created  marriage. It's not culture that created marriage. God did. God created our sexuality. God could have  happened could have had procreation happen at the. end of a Q-tip when a man and a woman mixed their  ear wax. Little babies could have been born from. that. He didn't. He chose to create us male and  female. And that is beautiful. That is a precious, precious gift from him. Now he says it's such  an important gift that it's to be experienced. within the context of a liflong commitment.  You separate sex from a lifelong commitment,

you're going down a destructive path, Christ says.  So third point would be, I have perverted the gift. of sex that God gave me through my heterosexual  lust. I have perverted that gift. I desperately. need God's grace. I need his Holy Spirit to change  me to live a sexually pure life. And that's not. easy for me. That's hard. When anybody ever says  to me, "Cliff, I was born this way." I often look.

them in the face and say, "Yeah, I was born a  heterosexual male. Do you think my heterosexual. sex drive motivates me to have sex with just one  woman?" And I'm waiting for the guys to laugh. I'm. guessing not. Yeah, eventually they do laugh.  Yeah. Obviously, we heterosexual males do not. have a sex drive right to have sex with just one  woman. Instead, we have to exercise self-control, make a commitment to just one woman, and then  enjoy sex within the context of a lifelong.

commitment. That's marriage. So, I communicate  that as clearly as I can to people. They don't. like what they hear. And it's fascinating,  Tucker, over the past 45 years to watch the gay. lesbian groups on university campuses around the  United States become the most highly organized, the most passionate groups on campus. I think  that's changing though recently and I'm so excited.

over that. But there has been a clear agenda, a  very clear agenda. And I I mean, you don't have to. agree uh of course, but I also the most hateful I  would say. I've never dealt with anybody like that. ever. Um, did you So, like, but in 1980, was that  a question that you got? Oh, yes, occasionally. And now, how often do you get it? I think it's  spiked and it's going down. It's not quite as. prevalent. I don't know exactly why, but I'm not  being asked as often about it, but when I am,

it can turn into a firestorm rather quickly.  I think, you know, whatever you think of it, I think people are starting to understand that's  not the road to happiness. And if it was the. road to happiness, why all the hate? Um, that's a  bad sign. You know, people who are that hateful, whatever they're doing isn't isn't working right.  And that's not my fault, actually. Sorry. Well, well put. What uh what kind of questions you get  about abortion? You got to be kidding me. You're a.

white male and you're telling me that abortion is  wrong. Where on earth are you coming from? White. male? What does white have to do with it? Oh,  I think that there are certain stereotypes that. exist and for some reason being a white male is  not cool. I mean, one of the things that spiked. our popularity on TikTok was a a blond-haired  woman at University of Texas came out to our open.

air meeting and really went after me. You got to  be kidding me. you a white male are standing out. here telling us that we need God, that we need  Christ. Are you kidding me? This is the most. absurd thing I've ever seen. And I said, "Wait a  second. Wait a second. What does white have to do. with it? What does me having being a male have to  do with it? We're talking about Jesus Christ, and. I'm not Jesus. We're talking about an historical  figure who lived, taught, died, and rose from the. dead. The historical evidence is he's reliable.  I'm not asking you to join me. I'm asking you.

to seriously consider Christ and to put your faith  in him. For he is reliable in a way that I am not. You don't know me from Adam. So walk away from  me. But please read the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John for yourself. And ask yourself,  does the historical evidence of the way Jesus. lived, taught, died, and rose from the dead point  to his re his credibility, his trustworthiness, or not? Well, she didn't like it. But it's, you  know, there there's so many stereotypes out there.

There's so much prejudice. It's It's incredible. I  kind of I mean, by the way, if evolution is real, then why haven't we evolved past that? We seem to  be evolving toward it. And I uh I I was taught as. a kid in the 70s that like prejudice like that,  writing people off immediately on the basis of the. way they look was like the one thing you weren't  allowed to do. Yeah. But it has become ubiquitous. Yep. Yep. So why why I mean in 1980 no one could  have stood up right in public and said shut up.

black man, shut up white man, shut up Jew, shut up  Christian. Like absolutely could not say that. But. now it's just it's everywhere. Wh why why is it  culture committed to non-discrimination becoming. ever more discriminatory in ever dumber ways? Mhm.  Not discriminatory in the sense that like I like.

fish not steak. Yeah. But discriminatory in like  you know anyone appearance is the most important. factor. Yeah. About somebody. Yeah. I I I just  think it's very weird. Yep. Well, a great man. once said, "I'm looking forward to the day when my  children's value is not going to be determined by. the color of their skin, but by the content  of their character." That's like considered. incredibly racist now to say that. It's like,  and I do think it has something to do with what.

you so eloquently described at the outset of our  conversation, which is once you stop acknowledging. the human soul, which can only be granted by God,  like if there's no God, there's no soul. Yeah. You're you're just a hunk of meat. Yeah. Once you  discount that, then the most important thing about. you becomes the way you look. Yep. Or who your  parents were. Exactly. Yeah. Why tragic? So, um. there are people matter about abort like so Roie  Wade gets overturned. It's a big deal. We don't.

really talk about it that much. Anti-abortion  people lose a bunch of elections. So, it seems. like the country is becoming more for abortion.  But is it becoming more for abortion? I mean, you're kind of out there talking to people in a  way that most are not. What do you think? I think. there's a real divide. I think there are more  people who are more committed to pro-choice and. there are more people committed to no pro-life.  For me, the issue becomes what does God say? The.

word abortion is never used in the Bible. No.  But we clearly read in the ten commandments, you shall not murder. Yep. So the question  becomes when does human life begin? In every major. university hospital in the United States, if a  body lying on a bed in an intensive care unit has. brain activity and heartbeat, doctors and nurses  are legally ethically responsible to do everything. within their power to sustain that life. And  generally, they do. Good. So, between 6 to 8. weeks after conception, that quote little piece  of skin in a woman's womb has both brain activity.

and heartbeat. So, I would hope that majority of  us would be able to agree between 6 to 8 weeks, that's no longer just a piece of skin. That's a  human life. It's got brain activity and heartbeat. So, let's not abort after 8 weeks. Hopefully, we  all can agree on that. Then the next question is, well, what's the difference between a 1 minute old  fertilized egg and an 8week old fertilized egg, an 8 day old fertilized egg, a 60-year-old  fertilized egg? And I would argue the only.

difference is in kind. Excuse me. The only  difference is in degree of maturation, not in kind. It's the same thing, just a different  Exactly. point along a continuum. Exactly. So, is a one-year-old different from an 80-year-old?  Well, yeah, in lots of ways, but fundamentally, it's the same person. Still the Still a person.  Exactly. So, um this is not a conversation that.

you even hear anymore. You used to hear this  conversation debate about when life begins. Yep. Do you hear that conversation a little bit?  You're right. It spiked a few years ago and it's. been going downhill since then. It just seems like  that debate, which is a debate about specifics. Mhm. Has been replaced with slogans shouted back  and forth, pro-choice, pro-life, which are phrases. that I personally hate because I don't really  know what they mean. Um have you noticed that?

Yep. Correct. How big a deal is abortion?  It's a humongous deal because we're talking. about a human life. You euthan Asia, tremendous  issue. We're talking about a human life. Oh, but they're scenile. They have dementia, Cliff.  They have Alzheimer's. Yeah, but they're still a. human being created in the image of God. Yeah,  they're probably still more aware of the world. than my 2-year-old. Mhm. Can I kill my 2-year-old?  Exactly. What are you even talking about? Right. I.

mean, what? Yep. But the sad thing is, Peter  Singer, professor emeritus at at Princeton, he used to stand very strongly for abortion and  even killing a a newly born child. And yet, I. respect him because he really had a heart for the  poor. And he personally, I happen to know that he. personally gave a lot of money away to feed hungry  people. So he he's kind of a seems to me to be a. confused gentleman who understands the value of  human life and that we're going to feed starving.

people. But if I want to destroy a newborn infant,  go ahead. I mean, it was always amazing to me that. you could have a tenure professor at an Ivy League  college, which gets billions in federal funding. Yes. Advocate openly for murder. Why not just  cut off federal funding? Bingo. If he advocated. for murdering black people or murdering Israeli  settlers, they'd be like, "No, we're not going to. have this. No way. No way." Y but you can advocate  for murdering kids and it's you you keep your.

funding. I don't understand that at all. Neither  do I. Do you think um I mean part of the problem. with abortion is so many people have participated  in it. Yep. And a lot of good people by the way. I would say. Absolutely. since I know a bunch of  good people who participated in an abortion and we. all do. Yep. Whether we know it or not. Yep. So,  how do you speak to those people about it? I mean, it it's hard if you've participated that either  had one or paid for one or been the father of a.

child who like it's hard to talk to people about  it at that point. They don't want to talk about. it. How do you talk to people about that? Well,  Tucker, I've got to be brutally honest with. people. I am a dirty, rotten sinner. Yeah. And  self-righteousness Jesus attacks in the Gospels. like no other sin. Well, that's for sure. That's  the one thing he's really mad about. I noticed.

Exactly. The Pharisees. Prostitutes are fine,  but self-righteous people not fine. Exactly. Yeah. It's exactly right. So, we have to be very  careful that we're not approaching this issue with. a self-righteous chip on our shoulder. That's for  sure. We all are broken people. We all have feet. of clay. I certainly have blown it. Secondly, I've  received the grace of God, the forgiveness of God, and he offers that to every single one of us. And  all of us are in desperate need of it. I mean, gosh, one of my favorite stories in the New  Testament is that two thieves hung on either side. of the cross of Christ. Yeah. First thief turns  to come says to Jesus, "Come on, Jesus, miracle.

boy from Nazareth, get us off these crosses and  then we'll believe in you." Second criminal says, "You idiot. We bleed and die here because we  deserve it. But this Jesus, he's the innocent, holy, pure son of God." And that second criminal  looks into Christ's face and says, "Lord Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom." Now,  it's all right there. Jesus says, Jesus says, "Get. off the cross, work in a soup kitchen, give me 12  Hail Marys, and I'll think about it." No. Yeah. That's religion. You work your way to God. No.  The opposite is what Jesus does. He looks a guy.

in the face and he says, "I tell you the truth,  today you'll be with me in paradise. See you. tonight." Exactly. CS Lewis was walking through  the faculty lounge and they were having a debate. What's the difference between Christianity and  every other world religion and CS Lewis said, "Oh, that's easy. Grace, every religion says here the  rules, keep them. And if you do a good enough job, maybe you'll make it. Maybe you'll work off your  bad karma well enough to attain nirvana. Maybe.

you'll be a good enough boy to make heaven."  And Jesus says, "No, you never will be because. you will have a problem with sin. But I bled and  died on a cross to give you grace, forgiveness, and eternal life. Trust in me. That's why Jesus  doesn't call us to a philosophy. He doesn't call. us to an institution. He calls us to himself.  Because it takes a personal God, a suffering God, to pay the penalty for our sin to forgive us and  to reconcile us to himself. The last person Jesus.

forgives before he dies as a murderer. Yep. That's  exactly right. It's wild. Ain't that wild? It is. wild. Yep. So if you explain that um the the very  most basic precepts of your religion to someone. before you tell that person actually abortion is  murder. Do you get people who can hear you? Yes. Correct. Not everybody but yes. I notice that  people begin to listen a lot more attentively. The same way if you give a good answer to a  difficult question then suddenly if people.

are thinking they say oo I dismissed Christ  because I thought he was a joke. The evidence. is he's not a joke. I'm going to have to  begin to think more deeply and seriously. Jesus describes biblical faith as heading  towards the evidence. This whole idea that. faith in Christ is anti-scientific or anti-reason  is total baloney. In John 14:1, Jesus says,

"Believe me when I say that I am in the Father  and the Father's in me or believe me because of. the miracles that point to me being the truth."  He doesn't say just believe. He says, "No, look. at the miracles, buddy, and allow the evidence to  drive you to faith." Do you think that people who, you know, participate in a in a murder and don't  acknowledge that it's wrong and don't ask for.

forgiveness for participating in it, how do they  suffer in this life, do you think, in this life? Well, the penalty for sin is sin. Sin has a way  of unraveling life. We have human consciences. We all do. We all have a conscience. Now, we can  sear it. We can rationalize. We can blame others. for our sins. But we still have a conscience  and we have to shut that thing down in order. to live with ourselves or we can turn to Christ  for forgiveness. We have to shut it down in order.

to live with ourselves. Interesting. What is it to  what is the Can you more fully explain that? Yeah. I'm not very intelligent, Tucker. Until it comes  to justifying whatever I want to do. When it comes. to justifying what I want to do, I'm a genius.  Yeah. I went to grad school for that. Yeah. actually did well. Dean's list.  Congratulations. Well, you know. Oh,

man. No, that's that's really interesting. So,  what I think you're saying is once you accentuate, develop, hone the pattern of lying  to yourself about your own behavior, it becomes Yep. It becomes a habit. Absolutely. A  finely tuned habit. Uh yeah. Well, I think we've. all lived that. I certainly have. What about um  the idea that if you do something really bad, like you do suffer for it, like bad things happen  in your life. Okay. Now, the challenge to that is.

Job. When Job suffered, his buddies came to him.  Oh, yeah. And they were real smart. For one week, they sat there and said, "Zippo." They just  sat with him. beautiful compassion, comfort, integrity. Then they opened their mouths. Yeah.  And he went south real fast. Yeah. They blamed. him for his whole family dying. You're a sinner,  Job. That's why you going through this suffering.

And God was going to judge them. And Job had to  pray that the Lord would not judge them for that. screwed up advice they gave him, counsel. John  chapter 9, the disciples come to Jesus and say, "Hey, Jesus, this guy born blind. Who sinned?  This guy or his mom and dad?" Jesus said, "Neither." This happened that the power of God  might be displayed in his life. Does sin lead. to death? Absolutely. Is there always a onetoone  correspondence between sin and suffering? No. One.

of the main points of the book of Job is life is  unfair. God is fair. Don't get the two mixed up. The challenge when I suffer is not to clench  my fist and wave it in God's face. That's. misplaced anger. The challenge when I suffer is  to understand I'm born into an unfair world. Now. maybe I am suffering for some of my sin or from  the sins of somebody else. That's possible. But. it's also possible that because I'm born into  an unfair world, the flack is hitting the fan.

in my life. Not because of anybody sinning or  me sinning, but because of the unfairness of. this world. Now, the unfairness of this world  is a result of you push it all the way back to. Adam and Eve rebelling against God, telling God to  get lost, and creation begins to unravel. So, yes, we're born into a world where there are horrible  genetic birth defects and life is unraveling. Life. is unfair. And the reason I think that's so  important to remember is if I have the false.

expectation that life is supposed to be fair, I'm  going to be really disappointed with God. Yeah, life is not is definitely not fair. Um, there  are many Can I hit you with some hard ones? Go. for it. So, there are all kinds of references all  over the Bible from Genesis to Revelation about. people being chosen by God. Well, the the Jews  being the chosen people being the most obvious,

but it continues into, you know, the very end of  the gospels in the end of John. Jesus is like, "You all were chosen." What does that mean  exactly? There are lots of people who weren't. chosen. Jesus's enemies, died with, according  to Christianity, the sin of opposition to Jesus. on them. Is there like an elect who were  just like chosen to be followers of Jesus. and then the rest who just weren't chosen  and won't be? That seems to be what they're.

saying in there. Very difficult question. and  equally committed followers of Christ disagree. Oh, in my last sermon I Sorry, sorry to No, no,  no. I'm not sorry. It's a It's a great issue. In. the last sermon I preached, I used an illustration  from South Africa. In a very very fine South. African seminary, it was taught Africconers are  the chosen people, which means they are superior.

to blacks, colorards, and Indians and Brits.  And Brits, they hate the Brits. Incredible. Understandably, I would argue that is a total  misunderstanding of the word chosen in the Bible. I would argue that when the Bible talks about God  choosing the Jewish people, it doesn't mean all. Jews are going to heaven, it doesn't mean the  Jews are superior to Gentiles. It simply means. that when God chose to reveal himself more clearly  than simply through creation, general revelation,

he chose the Jewish prophets and he spoke  through the Hebrew prophets. And then when he. chose to reveal himself most clearly by becoming  a human being, he was born a Jew. I worship a Jew, Jesus of Nazareth. It does not mean that the Jews  are God's pets. No, they're valuable human beings. created in the image of God. But a Jewish thug  is a thug. The same way a Hamas thug is a thug. The same way a Hezbollah thug is a thug. The same  way a Palestinian thug is a thug. We're all human.

beings created in the image of God with a free  will. And we are responsible for what we do. So we got to be real careful that we  how we handle that word chosen. And no, I do not think that God chooses certain people to  go to heaven and he chooses other to go to hell. One of the most painful experiences I had was at  Stanford. I was speaking in a dorm lounge and a. lot of faculty for some reason that I don't know  showed up and I tried to pull those faculty out to.

express their worldview, their faith, whatever it  was. They refused to. They remained totally silent. and it was the students who dialogued with me. But  afterwards, one professor said, "All right, Cliff, let's go to the kitchen there and let's talk." And  I mean, that guy laced into me. It was incredible. And I mean, he called me some interesting words  and it just was really negative. What was he mad.

about? Well, that's what I didn't know until  afterwards. I went to the students who had. invited me to Stanford and I said, "Gosh, I had  the most intense discussion with your religion. professor imaginable." No one hates God more than  a religion professor at Stanford. Sorry. Well, what was so scary was the guy who invited me said,  "Cliff, that guy grew up in a home where his dad. was a minister and he had a brother and one day  their father looked them in the face and said,

he said to the other brother, "You're  predestined to go to heaven." And he looked. into the face of the guy who's now the religion  professor at Stanford, but this was years ago, so I doubt he's there now. And said, "And you're  predestined to go to hell." Can you imagine that? What an incredible perversion of the whole idea  of predestination, of the whole idea of chosen or. elect. And yet here's a Stanford University  religion professor who was treated that way. by his own father was a minister. It sounds  like he was working to make it true, though.

Sounds like he was living in hell. Yeah.  Doesn't it? If he's yelling at you. Yeah. For like talking about the gospel, which is like,  you know, nonviolent love-based religion. Yeah, if you're mad about that, like there's something,  you know, you're the problem, I would say. But, uh, not to be mean, but there there does seem  to be, and I of course could be misreading it, probably am, but at least one section, maybe a  couple where Jesus says, you know, like no one can.

come to me except those who are chosen to come to  me. I think that's what he says. Okay. I think the. language is unless the father draws him. Correct.  That's exactly right. So Tucker, if I stood here, sat here and said to you, you know why I believe  in Jesus? Cuz I'm a really great guy and I just. made the right decision. I'm a fool. No, I love  Jesus because Jesus first loved me. Right? My love. for him is not because I've got this love welling  out of my h heart and I'm just such a great guy.

No, he first loved me. He chose me. He drew  me to himself. I have never converted anybody. I have simply put the gospel, the good news of  God's love for you in front of people and God's. Holy Spirit works in people's hearts and they  either say yes or no. And I can't control that. I have no desire to control that. That's not my  job. I've got to respect a person's right to walk. away from Christ or to trust in him because God  created us that way. And when a rich young ruler.

after asking Jesus how to get to heaven finds  out, he walks away with a sad look on his face. And Christ doesn't go run after him and grab his  cloak and say, "Oh, wait a second, bud. You got to. believe in me." No, he respects the guy enough  to say, "Okay, that's your decision. I respect. your decision. I disagree with it totally." So I  I'm convinced that God allows us to walk away from. him. Tragic. And God also draws us to himself  by his Holy Spirit. But look at anthropology.

Anthropology shows us that every culture has  some type of religion. So I'm convinced that. the only reason an atheist doesn't find God is  for the same reason a criminal does not find the. police. Everybody's running away. Every society  is based on religion. Pardon? Every society is. based on religion. Yeah. Including ours. Ours is  the trans religion or whatever it is. But it's. still a it's an evangelical faith. They fly the  trans flag outside US embassies around the world. I mean, I I'm not for it, of course, but I mean, I  recognize what it is, which is a religion. It's a.

religion. You're flying You're flying the flag,  but instead of the cross, there's a rainbow. Do. you My last sort of overview question for you is  since you've been doing this for so long, do you. think there's more persecution of Christians now,  or do you think there's a revival of Christianity. in the United States, or is there both? Both.  Really? Tell me what you notice. The 20th century. had more Christian martyrs than all the centuries  before that combined. Yeah, I noticed. Yep.

That's not talked about too much. I Yeah. Really?  Yeah. Since the year 2000, over 50,000 Nigerian. Christians have been slaughtered by terrorists  for their faith in Christ, beheaded right outside. the church or inside the church building. That's  tragic. That is so sick, so sad. And yet, it's. real. And yet I'm convinced that the blood of the  martyrs is the seed of the church. I'm convinced.

that to spread Christianity I must not kill others  but be willing to die for my faith to be killed. And that's exactly what happened in the first,  second, third century. Yes. Big time. And when. Christianity got political power, whoa, things got  really difficult, really perverted really fast. So we as followers of Christ, we have to be very,  very careful about power. We need to use it. It's.

a gift from God. It's a good gift from God. But  we better have that same degree of skepticism. that Abraham Lincoln did when he said to that  minister, "No, let's not pray that God is on. our side. Let's pray that we are on God's side."  And that's one of the reasons that I respect a guy. like Charlie Kirk. He does not buy into Christian  nationalism. We're the best nation's number one. He understands Christ is number one. And now we  better get off our backsides and help make this.

country more serious about following Christ in  our policies, in the way we do business. And I. think that's awesome. I think that's absolutely  fantastic. There's a huge You use the phrase. Christian nationalism, which is I hate this term,  but a hot button phrase. Yep. Um but never really. defined. So people That's right. can impute  whatever meaning they want to. Exactly. Um, and the meanings differ greatly. So if by  Christian nationalism you mean you try to.

make it a more Christian country, that's what  you just ad advocated for. Right. If it means. put a religious leader in charge of the country  and make a state religion, that's an entirely. different meaning which you oppose. Beautifully  put. Right. So I I couldn't agree with you more. Christian nationalism, I think its critics mean  any effort to make it a more Christian country. Correct. Right. And so I'm opposed to the critics  of Christian nationalism. I'm against a state. religion. Yep. Same here. Good. Okay. Good. I  sorry just but that's one of those phrases that.

just like evokes all kinds of connotations that  you may not have meant. So I just wanted to put. a finer point on and and remember Tucker when I  speak on state university campuses or Ivy League. campuses I am not speaking in an echo chamber. The  majority of people disagree. Disagree. No you're. definitely not. The majority of people strongly  disagree with me. So when you were at Smith, I I meant to ask you this. Did you use the  phrase, "Can I get an amen?" No, you didn't.

Okay. Would have been funny if you had. I mean,  just think, Tucker, Chris, this February, March, April, I was at with Stuart. Stuart and I were  at Stanford, UC Davis, UC Berkeley, Harvard, MIT, Princeton, Colombia, Cornell, Clemson. Those are  not echo chambers. How long till you get stoned. and not in a fun way, right? I don't know. And  there are some people I think are a little too.

concerned about that. I am not concerned. And  I don't I think university campuses are still. very safe places although I know there's been some  problems but no I'm and I know ultimately Tucker. that my hand my life is in the hands of Christ and  I'm safe and secure and uh I have a great deal of. respect for the Apostle Paul when he writes  in Philippians 1:23 I desire to depart and be. with Christ which is better by far. And that's the  hope that we have as followers of Christ. I mean,

he like wrote most of his letters chained to a  wall in a dungeon somewhere, brother. It's exactly. right, Tucker. It's exactly right. I know it's not  a holy term, but what a badass that guy was. Oh, no kidding. I mean, for real. Oh, for real  is right. Um, okay. So, the second half of. the final question, which is about revival, there  is more persecution. You believe I think I think. objectively you're right. Harder to quantify is  revival. Yes. Harder to quantify. What's your. sense? All I know is the past year I have met more  excited followers of Christ on campuses than ever.

before. I am very excited the way young people are  taking Jesus more seriously. I do not think it's a. health wealth gospel. I do not think it's a think  positive gospel. I think it really grapples with. good and evil, righteousness and unrighteousness,  justice and injustice in a biblical way, not in a elitist way in the United States. So I am  very very excited about what's happening. Should.

you run into more students who are open-minded?  Yes, I'm getting more really personal questions. You know, whenever whenever things are getting a  little tense in the crowds outside, all I got to. do is talk about divorce and the pain of divorce,  and it gets real quiet. Really? What do you say? One of the reasons we all need Jesus Christ is  because we all experience alienation. And too.

many of you in this crowd right now know exactly  what I'm talking about. Cuz your mom and dad were. so alienated from each other that they divorced.  And you don't need me to tell you how much pain. that brought into your life. And I'm sorry. It's  wrong. It's not right. But what I plead with you. is realize that there is a good God who wants to  be your father in heaven to really protect you, to really care for you, who has your best  interests in mind. Don't take it from me. Read the.

Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Examine  this Christ for yourself. And you think people. are open to that? Some are not. They've been so  betrayed by their own parents. I mean, that's. what that is. It's betray. I mean, I've lived  live lived it, so I know. But that's and many. people have. At least half the country has. That's  a betray that's a betrayal of the child. Bingo. You're absolutely right again. And you think that  makes them more open to your message? Well, yeah,

cuz they understand alienation. Yeah. They've  experienced the pain of alienation. And that's why. when forgiveness is pictured in a very graphic way  and the practical nitty-gritty boots on the ground. description is given of forgiveness, hopefully  it's going to begin to make a little more. sense and the importance of it is going to become  highlighted cuz they watched mom and dad who could. not forgive each other and reconcile. Yes, that's  exactly. Wow, that's interesting. What about um.

drug drug use? Drug uses I mean I thought it was  bad when I was a kid. It seems It seems totally. out of control now. Yeah. Do Why do you think that  is? Why do I think that is? Yeah. Well, I think. drugs are very attractive if I'm in pain. It's a  way to assuage the pain. Yeah. Why not pop a pill?

Why not get into alcohol? I'm in pain. I'm hurting  and I can't stand this. So, I need some relief. from the pain and I'll get to use drugs. I'll use  alcohol. all you promiscuous lifestyle, the thrill. of orgasm. I'll do whatever it need to to take  care of the pain, the meaninglessness, the anst. of life. Yeah. Christ says, "Come and follow me.  It's not going to be easy. You're going to have. to do some hard work, but come and follow me, and  I will give you abundant life, a life that really.

flourishes, that's really good when you submit to  me and trust me." And it's fun to watch more and. more people begin to take Christ seriously and  say, you know, I don't think drugs and alcohol. are really the way to deal with my pain. I mean,  you know, I I love to ask students the question, if you could ask God one question, what would  it be? Well, I like to still play basketball. I don't really play basketball, Tucker. I waddle  out there on the court. But there was this one guy. out there in the Duchan YMCA who I went up to and  I said, "Hey, if you could ask God one question, what would it be?" He said, "Let me think about  it." You asked this on on the court. On the court?

Yeah. 4 minutes later, the guy comes back to me  and he says, "Guess what? I don't ask questions. of beings I don't think exist." Oh, I thought  that was pretty abrupt, but I liked his honesty. A few weeks ago, he comes up to me and  says, "Um, I'm started to pray." I said, "Really? I thought you didn't even I thought you  thought that he God didn't exist." He said, "Uh,

I almost killed myself with alcohol." I began to  realize I got to pray in order to live. I said, "Wow, that's that's great." I'm walking out  of the wine and getting in my car and all. of a sudden from the other end of the parking  lot, hey, remember, Cliff, faith without works. is dead. That's right. Out of the book of James,  the end of the New Testament. So, here's this kid. who told me, "I don't pray cuz I don't talk to  a God who doesn't and I'm not going to ask you.

a question about God because I don't ask questions  about beings I don't think exist." Now, he's gone. to now I pray and now he's gone to according  the book of James to me. I'm not surprised. I'm. not It's the people who are mad at God who come  around to God much more often than the people who. just don't even think about it. Someone comes  up and is like, "I don't think God exists.". Oh, God. Oh, you're God. He's clearly mad. Yeah.  And that suggests an internal tussle. Yes. With.

his pre-existing from birth deep knowledge that of  course God exists and knows that. Yeah. And he's. like fighting it. And anyone who's fighting is  probably in the end going to submit. Mhm. That's. my instinct on it anyway. Same here. That's  why when when people really go after me out in. the open air um and people come, you know, humble  people come up afterwards and say, "Cliff, are you. all right?" I mean I mean that guy was awful mad.  He was awful offensive, wasn't he? I'm saying, "Wait a second. I respect the guy totally. He put  right out on the table what he believes, what he.

doesn't believe. I loved it. I love every minute  of it." Yeah. It's always people like that. It's. the person who's like, "I've never thought of that  before." You know what I mean? Like what does that. have to do with my job at the bank? People like  that, you have a lot less hope of enlightenment. for them. Yeah. Yeah. Than the guy who's wrestling  with God. Yeah. Last final question. Are you. hopeful for the future of the country? Yes, I am.  Because I, as a follow of Christ, understand that.

God is ultimately sovereign. History is not  a string of accidents. History is ultimately. God's story. He began it. In the beginning, God  created the heavens and the earth, and he's going. to bring it to a close when Jesus Christ returns  in power and great glory. Billy Graham was playing. golf with President-elect Kennedy. And after their  golf game, Kennedy was driving them back to their. residence. And all of a sudden, Kennedy pulls  the car off to the side of the road and looks.

at Dr. Graham and says, "Do you really think  that Christ is going to return a second time?". Graham swallowed hard and said, "Uh, well, the  Bible teaches that and all the church creeds. teach that." So, yes, I do believe that. This was  prevatican 2 before they're reading the Bible a. lot, Catholic churches. No, it's true. It was a  good point. Yeah, very good point. And gosh, am. I ever excited about the number of Catholics that  are starting to read the Bible now? A lot. A ton. Yeah, I know. I am ecstatic over that development.  So, so sorry, sorry to interrupt, but I not to.

defend Kennedy, but he probably never heard  that before. That's the whole message of the New. Testament. But he'd never heard it. That's exactly  right. Well, just think if you have a world view. that says there is no God. History is a string of  accidents. And history's going to end when we all. blow ourselves to bits in a nuclear holocaust or  when the sun burns out and we all freeze to death. Entropy. No. Jesus Christ insisted that history  is going to end when he returns in power and great.

glory. That is why I as a follow of Christ have  hope for the future. Jesus rose from the dead. Jesus said, "I am the resurrection and the life.  He who believes in me will live even though he. dies." We as followers of Christ affirm life more  than anybody because we know that there's eternal. life out there. We as followers of Christ want  to work harder to change our country, to change. our world. Because you don't work on roads that  lead nowhere. And life is not a road that leads.

nowhere. Life is a road that leads to eternal life  in heaven when you trust in Christ. So you begin. to get involved in politics. You get involved in  your corporation. You get involved in your family. because you know that life is significant and you  know that there's an incredible future out there. because ultimately Jesus is going to return a  second time. Ultimately Jesus reigns. Cliff, I appreciate it. Thank you very much. Tucker, I  can't thank you enough for the awesome privilege.

Thank you for your honesty and your openness,  your hospitality. My deep theological questions, not very deep, but thank you. [Music] So, it  turns out that YouTube is suppressing this. show. On one level, that's not surprising. That's  what they do. But on another level, it's shocking. With everything that's going on in the world right  now, all the change taking place in our economy. and our politics, with the wars we're on the cusp  of fighting right now, Google has decided you. should have less information rather than more. And  that is totally wrong. It's immoral. What can you.

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