Chamath Palihapitiya: Zuckerberg, Rogan, Musk, and the Incoming “Golden Age” Under Trump

2020 was like an incredibly. prolific period for me. Know, I'd wake up out of bed and I. was doing deals and it was like. the. I had the world in my in my. in the in the palm of my hand. It felt like I was, you know, moving. markets every time I communicated. publicly. That was incredibly dizzying. And it had the exact opposite. effect on me that it should have. What it should have done. I should have taken a step back and. say, Hold on, this has nothing to do.

with me. What is this moment? And the moment would have been, we're at the tail end of zero rates. We had trillions of dollars that the. government had basically given to. individuals. We had an enormous M2 money supply. And instead I thought it was. me. And then in 2022, when the war in Ukraine started, the bottom fell out in financially. in Silicon Valley. And frankly, a lot of things that I. was working on. It was such a wake.

up call and it was the biggest. blessing of my life. You know, I never thought I would. be in a position to have made that. much money. In hindsight, I've never been. more blessed than to torch, you. know, $4 billion.

Do you think? I mean, there's you know, we're. still it's still ongoing, the war in. Ukraine. But it had, you said an immediate. effect on markets. It was it was like a a pivot point. You could point you could put it on. a map, March of 2022. I'll never forget it. So that war, my opinion was, you know, welcomed by. many in the West. And I wonder if. whatever they said it was it was.

clear they were for it. Do you think that there those two. things are connected? It's not clear to me how connected. they are. But the first part of what. you said I do agree with, which is. that we have. silently allowed this insidious. war machine to take over large. parts of the government. Yes. And what's so. interesting about this is that it. actually, I would have said was more. riddled inside the Republican Party. Yes. But it turns out over these. last few years, especially since.

this MAGA takeover, this. hostile takeover that Donald Trump. affected, which I think is. Enormously important in historical. context, but. it's more within. the Democratic Party now. Yeah, there are these neocon. warmongers that want. to connect the dots between. people suffering and their. own economic opportunity. And I think that that's very scary. And I think that whenever you see. that, you have to push against that. humans.

Should not be at war. We should not be fighting and. killing each other. It's just a. Simple, foundational moral principle. that I think we all have to live by. And you just cannot go. there and. you have to push back on every. avenue of people that try to take. you there. I couldn't agree more. So sorry to derail what. you were saying. Goes very. interesting. So 2020, your everything you. touch seems to turn a. profit. Two years later, everything changes.

Why is that good for you? Losing all the money? All that money? Because I had to take a step back. and actually figure out how. much of this was actually me. and my preparation. and my process or. my dark passenger. And here's what I mean by this, because I thought about this a lot. I think we all have a dark. passenger. So when you are born, you're kind of like this. Body that has the.

capability to do anything. I mean, you know, we talk about. this, but we don't say it enough. But the genetic diversity. of all humanity is minuscule. So I think I interpret that as the. capability of all humanity is pretty. incredible. But you have this huge distribution. of outcomes. And part of that are the things that. happen to you as you're growing up, right? Your lived experience. Right. It's the nature part, not. the nurture necessarily. And nature gives some.

people a very. dark passenger. Right? Some of them more than commit. crimes. Some of them will become. murderers. Some of them will become. drug addicts. Some of them, you. know, will have. this litany of things happen to. them. In my case, my lived. experience gave me this thing where. I have always battled this. insecurity that I've just felt. I'm basically worthless. You know, you're a kid. You come here. You know, you're not you don't. really fit in. You know, you try to kind of make.

a social life. out of everything else. that you're supposed to do doesn't. really work. Right. And so that creates a chip on my. shoulder. And it was this sort of. thing where I always felt I was on. the outside looking in. And then when I, you know, worked at Facebook and then left and. all of a sudden in my early 30s, I. had, you know, more success. and more money, to be. honest, than I ever thought I would. have. I spent a lot of time, a decade. basically feeding that insecurity,

buying things, accumulating. things. And to be honest with you, if I'm. being really honest with myself, look, I built a really successful. investment business by all numerical. accounts. But I would say for me, it was a. lost decade. I didn't do anything. And I got to a. point in 2022. where all of that stuff, so much. of it had to be stripped away. and I had to look at what was left. and rebuild from fundamentals.

I had an incredible wife. What a blessing. That's for sure. I had incredible kids. What a blessing. Five, five incredible. Kids to me. It's it's. You know, Tucker, it's amazing. Having kids is amazing. I had incredible friends. I have a Thursday night poker game. that I well, frankly, no matter. where I am in the world, I will go. out of my way. Planes, trains and automobiles to. fly back for because of what that. game gives me with my friends.

So I have these little thing. Where's your where's the game. At my house. Really? Yeah. And it's great, too, because, by the way, like, you know, poker players. So poker. So in Silicon Valley, there's like a group of us, like. some well known folks that we all. get together. And my wife was the one that did. the she when she first. looked at the game, you'd see all. these people. And it was really. interesting. But, you know, a lot of my friends. have a touch of the autism. And so what happens is, you know, you just end up like looking down at. your cards for eight hours straight. Nothing was happening. And she said, Guys, this is ridiculous.

You can play for a few hours. But at 7 p.m. we're going to break for dinner. We're going to sit around a table. and we're all going to talk. And you must look at each other in. the eyes. And it was so funny. But it's become a ritual. And for all of us, we all feel seen. And then slowly what happens is. people start to talk about things. that they we've never talked about. And what you see is this repetitive. pattern. People with this dark passenger, lots of insecurity, they. achieve a lot. But all of that, a lot.

is externally validated, but not internally felt. And so there's just this sense that. there's an emptiness and people. start to panic. I thought that X, Y, z would solve. the problem. I thought the watches. would solve the problem. The boat, the plane, the clothes, the chains. None of it solves it. And everybody, like clockwork, all of my friends go through it. And so it's funny, I'm sort of at. the tail end of this, but that poker.

game has been almost like this. therapy session where we all get to. talk. And then as a result, people feel. calmer. They feel a little bit more seen. about what's going on. My point in telling you this is not. sympathy. It's just a state that like. everybody is going through this. struggle. Yes. So back to me, I was able. to sort of put a finger on what my. thing is. What is that? You know, big sack. that I've been trying to carry up a. hill that is totally worthless. and not worth my time. It's this idea that I am worthless.

and I'm not worth anybody's time. And that just comes. from the way that I was raised and. the things that happened to me. I don't want any sympathy for that. except to say that's my thing. But now that I know it. I can try to do things that are more. productive in ways where I feel real. value. And I think that's a very useful. process because it reintroduces. it. I think it can fix for so many. people. The thing that is so broken right. now, you know, we've we are. completely de spiritualized. Yes.

Nobody believes in a. higher order. Faith, God. And so I think what happens. is everybody has this Carl. Yang moment. All of this difficulty sits on top. of them. And at some point, they may never. say it out loud. They think I am. living in a tale told by an idiot. Right. That's that famous quote. about why spirituality is important. And when you feel that way and you. don't have an answer, you start to feel angry. and you start to push back and you.

start to think, tear it all down. None of this is working. It's all B.S.. So I want to try to solve. it for myself. And then as I live. and as I just kind of do the things. that I'm doing, start new. businesses, make new investments, I'm going to try to point this out. because I think by pointing it out, you have a chance for other people. to start questioning things. Do I have a dark passenger? What? How did she get so self aware about. all of this? Most people, when they feel sad, sort of bumble forward and keep.

doing what they have always been. doing to no effect. What stopped you and made you think. about what was happening? You know I am. It's still very much a source of. anger for me. Like you. This idea that I'm basically. worthless makes me mad. And I projected it for many years, sort of on the people. that I, you know, my parents for. the most part, and all that. dysfunction.

Because I think about it a lot. And then when I make mistakes. So in that 20, 22 period when I. started to really write down here. all the mistakes I made. 1 or 2 later. He wrote them down, wrote. Them down. It's like, okay, I. invested a couple hundred million. dollars in this thing. It went to zero. What was I thinking? And I would first in your mind, is very clever. At first you lie to yourself and you. lie to yourself incredibly. well. While I underwrote it this way, I. thought the discounted cash flows.

It's obvious. One layer after that was and. then I communicated my thinking to. hold myself accountable also. because. That communication got me attention. and I liked the way it made me feel. And then I said, hold on a second. That feels true. I hate that I can even say it, that it may be true, but that feels. true. And so then I go back and I start to.

think like how many other decisions. that I made that I made in that. period were rooted in that. And when I saw 4 or 5 of them. I said, this is not what I'm. supposed to be doing. And then I went back and I said, How. many other decisions in my life have. I been making that were rooted. in the idea of Look at me? And it turned out that there were a. lot the things I bought, the. clothes I wore, the things I said, the way that I tried to live a life. And I felt that that was not me.

I was ashamed of it. Then I was angry about it. And then I asked my wife, I need you. to help me fix it. And this is what I mean by like, you. have to have a partner, I think, in. crime that can really. go through the ups and downs with. you. Damn. What did your wife say when you told. her this? She's like, I've been telling you. this for years. Whatever your wife says. But, you know, I was like, finally I. listened. And, you know, she always makes a. joke. She's like, I could tell you. the smartest thing in the world. And she's like, You think you need a. man to tell you? And I said, Well, this time this man was me.

And it's a joke that we all know. It's true, though. And so and my. father in law and my father in law, when I finally, like kind of. got rid of all the anger that I had, my father in law was a father. that I wish I had had. And what I mean by this is like. some people may not understand this. Tucker You may not. You may or may not. It is extremely discomforting. to feel. Unconditional love from.

the people around you. If you have not felt it. If you have always felt it, you. don't know what it means when. somebody says. Yes. You like, what does that mean? I don't know. I. Knew what it did, not what. what I thought love look like. And now when you have people that. love you in this way, it's. tilting. And it made me angry. Because I would go back to what is. this? I would push back on this and. I would go back to that and say, Why.

didn't that look like this? And I was just I was in an endless. loop of just being sure. When you experienced the way. your wife's family loved each other, it made you mad about your childhood. Yeah. And at first, I was mad. I was. I was mad at her. You know, meaning subconscious. He like you because she's giving. me something that I don't. understand. And I thought, there's. got to be a catch. First the asterisks. There's always a catch. And, you know, for years, she's. like, there's no catch.

And then she says to me, This is the. best thing that's ever happened to. us. She's like, Now. this next phase of totally building. will be that you and I do it. together. And again, I freaked out. and I thought, What do you mean? Where did you. Find this woman? My God. She's. I mean, she's from. the heavens. She turns out she's from Milan, but. Yeah, but she's from the heavens. And. And she's like, But we'll do it. together, and it's going to be. incredible, whatever it is, because. we're going to look back and. the process will have been the. thing. And I so I.

just, I needed a guide and I needed. to be open. To listening. And so I needed that event. vote because you're like, think. about a kid. Me, I grew up in. Sri Lanka. There's a civil war. We claim refugee status in Canada. Grew up on welfare. I get an engineering degree and. within a year I'm in the United. States and my career just goes. up into the right. Everything was working. Youngest vice president at AOL.

You know, when I was 26 years old. running this big messaging business. Then I get recruited by Zuck. I go to Facebook as one of the early. execs. I build that business, all the key. things that they look back on now, the network effects, the early. monetization, internationalization. That was my team. Most of my team still runs our. company, so it was like one. And then I left and I started an. investment business. Those investment returns are really. good. So everything was quote unquote.

working. So I held myself in. really high regard, but for the. wrong things. If that makes sense. It does. I could point to a bank. account or Twitter followers or all. of this stuff. And then when that. Was undone. Right. 20, 22, 2023. What happened? I thought that this was all supposed. to work and it would work forever. It was an opportunity for me to. really reset and tell myself the. truth. The ugly truth. Hey, man, you are motivated by.

stupid, inconsequential stuff. Get back to basics. And then when I looked around, it wasn't just me. There are so many of my peers in. Silicon Valley that it also just. wasted the last decade doing. nothing. We were all quote unquote, wealthier, but we were more broke. You know. I wonder I do know and I've. certainly seen that a lot, having. spent a lot of time around rich. people, but I've rarely. seen someone address it as honestly. as you are now. And I do you know, other people.

who've been willing to look. themselves as clearly. I think there are people that have. that may not. Talk about it, but I think that. they've lived it. I know Ellen's. lived it. Where? He's always underwritten things. based on like this is so like, you know, the great thing about. being in Silicon Valley. is that there are people that I. have the honor and the.

luck of knowing. And might like him. But I didn't really. try to learn from him until 2022, if that makes sense. Yes. There were all these decisions that. he made that I would reductively. reduce to. That's a smart business. decision and it had. nothing to do with business here. He was always leading from. what am I, what are my core moral. beliefs? And let me act on those. Like the money never mattered.

You know, he never did anything to. to to live that experience. He loves his friends. He loves his family. It took me a decade of knowing him. until I started to listen to that. intellect to really hone in on that. So he's an example. Then there are folks that are a. little bit older that have gone. through it. My father in law has. gone through it. UPS and downs and. ups and downs. And he's built an. incredible business. And he's had to face tremendous. hardship where he's had to. underwrite what is really important. Am I am an honorable person?

Is my word my bond? When you shake my hand and we do a. deal. It is what it is. You know, if I can, you know, make X, but it's way too much. And if I can make half as X, but. it's more. Makes my. He makes drugs, you know, life signs. of drugs make them more accessible. Should I do He makes those decisions. and so you live you see his morality. play out in his actions. My wife. So I think now I have 3 or. 4 people in my life. But I had to listen. And before I chose not to.

listen because my ego said, Hey, man, you're. You know, you're the best. You've heard people say it. If you're not doing anything wrong, why do you care if other people. watch what you're doing? Well, because privacy is integral. to freedom. No privacy. No freedom. Well, it's true that a VPN could. come in handy for those who spend. their time browsing the dark web. doing scandalous things. VPNs are not actually for criminals. They're for everybody, particularly. for people who are doing nothing. wrong.

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like there's not a lot of that. Yeah. What's that? What are the upsides and downsides. of that do you think? The upside, I think, is that you. can. Start to really focus on things that. you care about. The downside is if you haven't if. you don't know what those things. that you care about really are, you're going to waste a lot of time. on point. What did you do when. this is after the Facebook IPO? I mean, I bought a piece of the. Warriors that was really cool. You know, I was like a 10%. owner of the Warriors. I had a press release from the NBA.

and there was like two players on. the team at the time that were older. than me. So, like, pretty weird. And I made some amazing friendships. with them when we won the. championships. You know, we would go to Vegas. We would kind of like party. together. Don't get me wrong, like an. incredible experience, especially for, you know, an ugly nerd that had no social. life. Do you know what I mean? So I. I took advantage of that because.

it's like filling a jug of water, right? That jug had always been. empty. I was never invited out. Right. So I thought, now I'm invited. out. Obviously, it's because, you know, the position is not like, you know, we grew up together or whatever, but. I would get invited up. every now and then. Maybe more often. than not, I'd just pay for the. dinner. Whatever. It doesn't matter. I'm out. Yeah, I'm in the mix. I'm in the game. But then the jug fills up. And then you're like, wait a minute. Because you think like when the drug. is two thirds full. Don't worry. It's that extra third.

that's just going to it's going to. fix it all. It's true. So you just go through. these cycles. And so, I mean, that was a cool. thing. You know, you do the you. go after material possessions. That doesn't do anything. It really doesn't. It's these are all very hollowing. things. I think, like the thing that. like I said, like, well, you know, the problem with things like social. media, what they do is they. glorify these things. We all fall for it. I fell for it. So if when you have. money, you go and you buy these. things because you think this is. what happiness looks like.

or, you know, success. looks like and it's not, it's none. of that stuff. Now, nobody. listening to this. Will believe it because they are. Everybody wants to live that. over and over because it's not like. a very destructive life lesson. You know what I mean? Like to have. like a Laura piano sweater and not. need it. But but the. the bigger message is more. important, which is if you. have a sense of what's important, you can kind of see. the things that are really happening.

in a much more. They're more in focus. So, like, you know, I would say like. now that I'm 48. I'm much more aware. of like, what does it mean to be an. American? What is my job. as an American businessman? As an engineer, as. an entrepreneur, it's. not. All of this other superficial. garbage because it adds nothing. It's to actually allow. the system that rewarded and.

benefited me to be. just a little bit better. in terms of the contributions I give. to it before I'm no longer. part of the system in 50 or 60. years. That's very motivating for me now. And this idea that my kids can go. and join Team America. and do cool stuff and. find happiness, find a great. husband, find a great wife, have a. bunch of kids and live. a good life and know. what their dad went through and have. a better sense of that.

That seems like an additive thing I. can add to the system to be. a good example for my friends when. they start to go through their own. struggles. That they can kind of course, correct a little bit faster than I. did. You know, I mean, I went. through a divorce. Right. So that's. a that's a terrible thing. After after you got married. After all that, I went through a. divorce, and I was very lucky to. find my wife. But my point is that. my my first marriage, you know, when. you get a divorce, that's that's a. death in the family. Literally, you. Know, literally a death. And then you are complicit in the.

commission of that death. You know, it's the husband and the. wife. I mean, there are only two. people responsible. That's right. And so I see a bunch of my friends. who are you can see. some veering and teetering. And now I can sort of intervene a. little bit and just kind of cajole. and nudge and, you know, help. them. And I'm not saying that these. are all really grand highfalutin. things, but they actually address. the inner part of what I needed. for a very long time. I just didn't realize it.

I know those are the most important. things. Yeah. If you can help. someone save his marriage, I mean, I. think that's. That's a lot more important and. virtuous than most things that we. do. And frankly, most everything, especially when you think of how. compounds to that, that husband and wife's children. Yeah. I mean, it's the key thing. I completely agree. And a happy marriage makes happy. children. So. Yeah, Yeah, it it redounds. for the generations, I would say. Exactly. So I see children's having a. conversation with one of my children.

this morning. You know, I know Irish people, obviously. And we're talking about. somebody who we know, you know, good. guy, billionaire who is. totally focused on making more. money. To the exclusion of. Everything else. Kind of. And. one of my shoulder said to me, not. in a church meant away, but, you. know, with affection for this. person. But like, why? Like what is that exactly And why? You know, I guess it's just on. autopilot to some extent. Like, you know, I make money, I'll.

make more money. But but. the drive to make more money, that. is literally superfluous. Like, you will never need that. money. What is that? It's an emptiness somewhere else. Yeah, it's a jug that they're. trying to fill, and they. think that the, you know, the closer. they get to filling it. The problem is, like, your mind. just switches the jug to an even. bigger jug, and then. it gets closer to being formed and. it switches again and it switches. again. I think the much better way to think. about this problem.

Is what am I. doing with my time that actually. helps the place? That gave me an opportunity to be. better and the people that live. beside me be better. That is a really. Morally valuable statement. And then you can kind. of like look at all the things. and all the problems that make. everybody mad in the United States. as an opportunity to actually do. them better. And that is useful. And when you have money, the one. thing that you can do is you can. accelerate that change much faster.

than folks that have to take a much. more arduous. Path for sure. And I think we've lost that. There's not enough people that. basically say, okay, you know what? The United States has given me so. much. Now, how do I give back, quote. unquote? And you don't necessarily have to. give back by going into nonprofit or. going into government. You can just. acknowledge the problems that are. there and go fix them. And you can fix them by starting for. profit companies, which are always. the best way. And I wonder, like, why don't more.

people do it? Greg Well, you can have five decent. children too, which is probably the. best thing you could do for any. country. But so thank you for that. But I do. notice and have always noticed that. some of the people who've benefited. most from the United States dislike. it the most intensely. And I don't really understand what. that is. I think that that is. I think that what's happened. So I'll give you my framework. You can tell me maybe where you. agree or disagree, but. It is important for all 330. million Americans. to take a step back and acknowledge.

this one truth. And I think that it is completely a. canonical statement that is. inviolate. For being an American, we are the single most important. country in existence in the world. We are the most important country. today. We must be the most important. country tomorrow. Period. If you say that enough times. and you believe it. Then there are two things that. underpin that, and I think only two. We are the single most vibrant.

economy in the world. and we are the single strongest. military in the world. And if you can agree to those two. things, which I think should be. non-controversial, if you say. meaning like if I said to you, Hey, Tucker, we make the best oranges. and burritos in America. That does not yield the most. important country in the world. If I said we make the best shoes. and the best flat panel TVs, that does not equate to the most. powerful country in the world.

But if I said to you, we have the. strongest and most vibrant. economy and the strongest. and most powerful military, that is the strongest and most. important. Country in this. And then there is only one thing. that gives you both of those two. things, which is technological. supremacy. So go back to these examples. If I said to you, We write the best. books, those books. could be incredibly powerful, but it does not give you technical.

supremacy. If I said to you that we have the. most abundant energy. oil fields, not gas, it's important, but it does. not give us technological supremacy. Those that get their. Will be in a position. to create the most vibrant economy. They'll take that money and then. create the most powerful military. They'll put those two things. together. They'll be the most. powerful country. So I think today, sitting here, January of 2025, we.

are in an existential risk. of losing our place in the world. And the reason is that we had people. we have people from. the inside trying. to sabotage our economy effectively. and trying to sabotage our military. capability. And they do that not explicitly, but they do that because they are in. positions of leadership and they. fundamentally don't know what. they're doing. And this is what needs to get called. out. And I think what we need is this. wholesale reform of the people.

that are at the levers and. in the controls of these things. The lack of economic judgment, the. lack of military judgment. is ruining America's. ability to be the most important. country in the world. We are, you know, in. Silicon Valley, I. think it's fair to say that we have. had a lost decade. And when you look underneath y, what. are the two most or three? Most are foremost incredible. technological achievements.

that the Silicon Valley has created. in the last decade. You're hard pressed to find it. So in one example, you have. Elon. He's created reusable rocketry. He's created an entire. global mesh of communications. infrastructure. He's created electric cars. That's an incredible thing. What? And he's done that with one. hand tied behind his back, meaning. fighting the government. Local, state, federal at every. single turn over the last 10 or 15. years. What have the rest of us done?

We've created air pods and Instagram. reels. Why? I think a lot of people fell. into the same lull that I fell into. We had people pushing back. constantly. We got distracted. We wasted time. You know, we took an entire. Corddry Like, like, like, look, engineering is actually very much. like professional sports. Tucker Like there are Michael. Jordan's in engineering, okay? And there are many people that.

are not really close to Michael. Jordan, you know, couldn't even make. a JV scrub team. Yeah. There is that crazy distribution. of, of capability. And let's just say in Silicon. Valley, there's 5 million engineers. If you add up all the companies and. all the people, maybe that's a lot. But I don't know. I can tell you that there's at least. 25 or 15,000 of them. that are like Michael Jordan. Ask capable. And instead, what we told these. people is, hey, don't win.

six championships in eight years. Don't be the most prolific player. ever. What we told them to do was like, You can dribble down the court, but. don't dribble too fast because. you'll make these other people feel. bad. Hey, you know what? You can do a couple of layups, but. don't do too many layups because you. should actually pass the ball so. that these other people we hired. because the team photo looks better, you know, give them a chance to. score. You did all of these. dumb things. Then team management. would come down and say, You know. what? I actually think the goal. should be to play Wiffle ball. And then you take Michael Jordan off. the basketball court and you make.

him play football. That's what. Silicon Valley did. We took all this incredible talent. We got distracted by the money. Yeah, right. Because what really did. happen in the Valley, what did. happen is all the billionaires. became Deca billionaires and Santee. billionaires. Right. The wealth went through the. roof. The innovation went through the. floor. So we got lulled. Into this economic complacency. My gosh, I'm so much smarter because.

I'm so much richer. No, you're not. No, you're not. I'll give you a different example. Sounds like good old fashioned. decadence. Kind of. I think. But I think that there was. some sabotage. Meaning? Or maybe sabotage is not the right. word, but there were traps. that were laid out and. we all fell on them. The trap, the woke trap, the all this kind of stuff. that were distractions. to core innovation.

I'll give you two examples that. paint the picture. I'll bookend it. I'll give you a Silicon Valley book. and the beginning of the book. and is in the early 2000s. There's an incredible professor, Jennifer Doudna and Berkeley. And she pioneers Crispr, which is the ability to edit genes. Let's take that off the table. Whether you think it's morally right. or wrong for a second. Okay. It could be a tool. It could be a weapon. I grant that. But it is undeniably a tool. that sits in the toolbox that we.

call technological supremacy. Over the next decade. What Silicon Valley managed to do. was embroil themselves in. IP lawsuits about who actually. owned it. What China did was take the open. source awareness of it and pioneer. it. Was that smart? Well. Whether you agree or you disagree. Should that toolbox be in our. toolbox where we can meet it out, or should it be in China's toolbox, where they can decide where if. all of a sudden there is some.

disease in the future. and it requires this very. precise form of gene editing. and only they can do it. And now a state sponsored entity in. China is the one that provisions. a cure for 8 billion humans around. the world. That will give them tremendous. economic. Power. Was that smart for. America to have done that? I think not. I'll give you a different example, which is just today as you and I sit.

here. President biden issued an eo. And what the EO said is. Executive order. Air is going to be critical. And so we want to give. the ability for federal lands. to be used for air. data centers. Okay. Now you're cooking this sound spark. Let's go read the fine print. And by the second or third. paragraph, what it says is,

however, we need to think about the, you know, the diversity. inequity inclusions of said data. centers. And. And now hold on. And. You have to basically give. preference to clean power. Well, is that the same clean power. that was essentially made impossible. because of permitting issues. and environmental impact studies? You know, you can't just build solar. farms that you want to you can't.

build wind farms in America if you. want to. You can't build nuclear. reactors because they won't let you. These are not technological. limitations. These were regulatory. limitations. Those are just two examples that. just show you you cannot do what's. in America's best interest right now. because people have forgot they've. lost the script. They forgot the priorities. Guys, The priorities are we need to. remain the most. singularly powerful economic. and military entity in the world.

The way you do that is through. technical supremacy, period. I'll give you another two examples. just to you can tell me. if these are boring, but. Not at all. Saudi Arabia is doing an incredible. job. They're monetizing their oil. They are. Doing very strategic things with the. capital. What they've decided is they're. going to allocate money that. they take from selling oil. To build a global data center. infrastructure for A.I..

That's really smart. And when you look at Saudi Arabia on. a map, you think, my gosh, this is very smart. Why? Because they sit right in this. artery between Asia, Europe. and Africa. Exactly. This is critically smart. But what is the one thing that they. need that they don't have? It's air chips. Now, I just to break. it down for, you know, your viewers, think of these two buckets.

Okay. Bucket number one is where you. train the brain. Okay. Think of it as a brain bucket. Number one, you train the brain. bucket. Number two, you use the. brain to make decisions. Okay. The chips that we make. To train the brain. Or under export control. Right. We don't want folks to train. their own brains necessarily. unless we can govern them. That's a Department of Commerce. decision on export licensing.

The way that we use. the brain is a different kind of. chip and we have some. export controls there. What will Saudi eventually. be forced to do? They're an ally of America. They want to do the right thing, but they have a responsibility to. their people to try to become. the most incredible, you know, economic and military power in the. world. They're going to go and buy the. chips from the people that will. actually sell it to them. Now, look east, of course. They will look east and they'll find.

it in China. He had a different example. If you look at matter. Matter has poured tens of billions. of dollars to training a brain. Okay. In a brain that's called lama, right? That's matters. efforts in A.I.. And it's open source. It's wonderful, actually. My companies use it. It works. It's high quality.

Opening I, which is. the private closed source competitor. to Metta. And Llama also has. an AI brain that they've trained, you know, GPT chatbot, you've used. it properly. They've also spent tens of billions. of dollars in part coming from. Microsoft. Meanwhile. In December. A Chinese company, open sourced, a. model where they spent tens. of millions of dollars. And in many cases that digital.

brain is smarter than. both matter. And open eyes on many dimensions. So two orders of magnitude. cheaper. Well, what do you think that means. for the other 182 countries around. the world that wants to do. something? An eye? Are they going to take the $10. billion version? Or are they going to take the $10. million version? They're going to take the $10. million one. Yeah. And when you unpack what why. did it cost $10 billion? That was my question. It cost $10 billion because of.

all the roadblocks that we put. in front of companies to make. the things that we need to maintain. our technical supremacy. So I'll give you some examples. There is a huge. So, for example, one of the things. that China chooses to not do. is they don't really respect. copyright law. Now, I'm not saying we should. violate copyright law. But I think it's important to. acknowledge that there is a. Technical overhang that it creates. and training these brains to try. to filter out content that the New.

York Times tags or Fox. News tags and says don't learn on. this. You're not allowed unless you have a. deal with me. That creates an enormously over. expense. How do we judge. that issue today? If you ask somebody. It's a pretty simple conversation. It's not nuanced. It's do you believe in copyright or. do you not believe in copyright? I think it's a much more nuanced. question. For the sake of training these.

digital brains. If there was an economic. relationship that we could create, isn't it better that our digital. brain is smarter than these other. ones and that we make it as cheap as. possible? If you ask that question, a lot of. people would say, gosh, that's a. nuanced question. It's not it's a neither an easy no. For an expert on the margins, I'd I. would say yes knowing that. there are these impacts. Give you a different example. It takes all this energy. To build the data centers.

Why does it cost so much? It's not that the let's just say you. wanted to use solar panels. Is it that the solar panels are. expensive? No. Is it that the ability to do. the interconnects are expensive? No. It's a building. That facility had. a multiyear environmental impact. study. Umpteen lawsuits. All kinds of indirection and. misdirection from. all of these independent actors.

who believed that they were pursuing. their own priorities. And there was no release valve. That said, I appreciate. and respect. The smelt that you're trying to. protect are the land grouse. But this is bigger than that. We need to make sure we maintain our. technical superiority. That data center is going to be used. by the NSA to protect America. So it needs to go up in nine months. No ifs, ands or buts. Right now, we don't have the ability. to say that.

Or if we do, it's not clear who. should say it. And so all of this time. cost money. All of this complexity costs money. And the output our. practical costs of building these. things that are just two orders of. magnitude bigger than our. competitors. We're going to use the word revival. But it does seem true that millions. of Americans simultaneously are. coming to the conclusion that buying. things online and going on vacation. may not be the sum total purpose. of life.

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for. I was hearing about it. There was an AI center in another. country three days ago when they. were saying they're not exactly sure. you know, what it's going to take to. run one, but it could be. ten X or more data center. Which is. That was amazing to me. So how do you power that? Exactly. So you have these competing. imperatives. You've got the Climate. Agenda versus. A.I., which is clearly the future of. the economy of California, for. example. Yeah. Can I just say. Okay, I have to go on a small.

diatribe. Please. Please do. I'm trying to evoke one. The. There is nothing that the Western. countries can. do that will. equate in any way, shape. or form the impact. of what China and India decides. to do. We do not live. in small bubbles. There is no glass bubble. that sits on top of the United. States. We all share an ecology. That ecology is extremely. complicated and nuanced, and.

it's a global one. And the reality is that India. and China collectively together. have way more impact. than what you and I are going to do. by becoming vegans. Impact on the climate, on the. environment. Yeah, I've noticed. Yes. So I think the. reason why, for example, like we. have again, so we have lost so much. ground. The California wildfires. are an example that that lays bare.

We should have 50%. of the American population. on solar panels and battery walls. today. The reason it's nice to. have that you do it for climate. change, but the reason is. resilience. The reason is so that you can power. yourself in moments of calamity. The reason is so that you can make. sure that you can take care of your. family, cook food. Yeah. You know, desalinate water, whatever it is that you need to to. Prep for approach to energy. I'm with you. It's just like the practical.

reality. Totally agree. And instead, we make it this. sort of, like, moral blanket. that you have to wrap yourself in. Everybody then takes a view. And all it does is retard progress. So I guess what I'm saying is. We spend way too. much time getting distracted. on fringe ideas. and we need to recalibrate. We need to be and we need to remain. the most singular, muscular. power in the world, which comes from.

economic and military supremacy, which comes from only one thing. technical supremacy. So you have to find a way. of enabling those 50,000. Michael Jordan's that exist in. America to cook. Let them cook. That's what you need to do. I wonder if the structure of Silicon. Valley or. I can give you different examples. Yeah, of course. Sorry. Is this my. last one? Do you know one of the big pushes in. eyes in robotics? Yeah. And just a double click into a.

robot. A robot moves. through these things called. actuators. Okay. And one of the things that actually. needs one of the ways that they. generate mechanical motion, 3D planar mechanical motion. is through the use of magnets. Permanent magnets and permanent. magnets are different than the ones. you and I play with or what our kids. play with. They are made from these things. called rare earth metals. Yes. And rare earths are a misnomer. They are not rare, but they.

are abundantly available. in the earth. There is an incredible supply. of rare earths in California. You could not for the life of you. get a permit in California, no matter how clean. How green. To mine those materials. to make sure that we could make. magnets so that we could make the. robots so that we maintained our. technical supremacy. Right. That's how that decision, I. think, should get made.

We want technical supremacy. In the next 5 to 10 years, there's. going to be a huge wave in robotics. America needs to be at the. forefront. America needs to make them. We need to understand how to program. them. Our robots need to be smarter. So there's an AI track, right? There's a mechanical engineering. track. Okay. Well, there's a mining track. Let's get the materials. Let's make sure that we are beholden. to nobody so that we. can make them. By the way, these are. all great paying jobs if you are. able to actually get them permitted. And when push comes to shove, when.

it's like, yeah, get the rare earths. out of the ground and make the. permanent magnets, can't do it. Why? You're going to spend 13 years in. permitting hell in California to try. to get that done. So and I know this the reason I. know this is that. I started a business. To make sure that China. does not have access to. the only supply of rare earths. And I initially tried to do it in. California. Impossible.

I invested in one business that. actually had an old mine that we. were able to get back online. through a bank's bankruptcy process. and blah, blah, blah. But it's not nearly enough. So I went to India. and I was able to get a deal done. with the Indian government. And what they were able to see was. the strategic rationale of making. sure we had access to not only the. rare earths, but also to. make sure that there were subsidies. so that they would compete on the. global stage cheaper than. China.

And now I can bring them back into. the United States to make these. magnets. What? I like to do that. in America? Yes. Can I impossibly be sitting around. twiddling my thumbs for a decade? The guys in India did that deal with. me in less than 18 months. They understand there's. an escalation point where they'll. sit down this each month. What do you need? What makes sense? And I say, Well, sir, here's what. we're trying to do. Here's why it's. important. Here's why Having a global supply. chain that's independent of China is. just important. It's competitive.

It's good for everybody. They're like, okay, great. X, Y, and Z. Do the following three. things. Build a plant over there. We'll make sure that we support you. Here, I would just go into a morass. and die. I mean, can we generate. the do we the hardware to generate. the electricity necessary to remain. dominant? Yes. Yes. So the other crazy thing. about that, Biden EO. His. Why do you like. Why couldn't you have just stopped.

the year with that first paragraph? Because it wouldn't can. include the control provisions, which are the whole point of it. We get we control your behavior, we. give you something, but then we're. in charge. You're in charge. We have more. Not gas and oil. in the United States. I don't know if you saw this, Tucker, but there was a piece of. data that came out this week, but. Our reliance on foreign oil. is almost entirely gone. Yeah. Meaning like. Almost like to where. we don't even need to buy it.

anymore. Not just that we make more. than we import, but where. the imports will soon go to zero. Yes, that's an incredible statement. about the energy independence of. America. It's the single. most obvious way to, by the way, to. guarantee peace. Well, yeah. If you're not fighting over that. critical resource, it's going to be. very unlikely you're going to go to. war. Which, if you look past the last 4. or 5 years, 4 or 5 wars, the trillions of dollars and the. hundreds of thousands of American. lives, what were they all about? Oil. And now, you.

know, we have the ability to power. those data centers. So should data centers. be built in a fair, predictable way on federal land? Yeah. Because it feeds the technical. supremacy we all need. Now, by the way, there is a. conversation to be had. Okay, great. When you have all this. economic abundance, how do you share. it more? I get that. Right. But at least you're in a position to. have the conversation. That. Yeah, that is jumping ahead. So back to this, though. But like, you know, if you're able.

to build these things, I think. what Biden should have done is just. say, hey, listen, folks, do your. best. Get the energy because it. exists. Use net gas. Use oil and we will. figure it out after we've won. That feels like leadership. Right? But he can't do that because. he's surrounded by people who have. already said no. hydrocarbons, period. So and it's but it's not rooted. in any reality. No, I'm aware. I'm aware. It's just it's rooted in moral.

grandstanding. I've noticed. But I just think that we're. We're. I mean, if you've got. mandates for net zero or mandates. or no hydrocarbons, mandates. for EVs and the. economic imperative around, I, I just don't. And people like air conditioning. I just don't think we're going to. have enough electricity unless. there's hardware built like really. soon. It's I said credible. that you mentioned air conditioning. So back to sort of one of these that. one of these ways where I was like,

you know, after 2022, how can. I just get back to basics and do the. things that I do well? One of the projects that I started. with this incredible mechanical. engineer was we set out. to rebuild the air conditioner. Yeah, good. And when you look at air. conditioners, the heat transfer. mechanisms can be made. much, much more efficient. And you don't have to use this. horrible coolants. And so we have. A working version now. It's like our second prototype.

We're probably two years away from. getting something working, but when. that works, by the way, we've. started a process to figure out how. do we sell it? But this is again, Tucker, It's like. if I tried to sell it. to a home. The number of people that want to. touch that thing. I know. It will take me an extra $150. million. And an extra, extra 150. It'll take 100, 150 million to build. it. It'll take an extra hundred and 50. million and an extra seven years. To comply with food.

Yeah. What? What is it that I'm supposed to do? And by the way, not to be pedantic, but those rules. were never passed by the Congress. I don't think those rules were. passed by people even to give. them the benefit of the doubt. By one degree removed. folks that even have an. understanding of, like, physics? No. Well, of course not. Of course not. So there was probably a very smart, capable lawyer representing some. smart organization. who knew that this was something.

that they could write in to slow. people down. But what people need to understand. is that, again, it just slows down. our ability to remain number one. But where does this. I think you're exactly right. I think you've described it very. nicely. But I'm still baffled. by the motive. Why would people in. a country as great as ours want. to wreck the country? Where does that come from? I don't think that they want to. wreck the country as much as. I think that they. Have lost the global context.

I don't think they understand. that we are in an existential. risk of no longer being number. one. And I think that they also don't. understand. the implications if we are not. number one. You need to just look at. the UK. If you want to have. a very simple and visible. picture of. a white Anglo-Saxon Protestant. nation completely. losing itself.

Totally losing the economic war. Losing the military war. Losing the technology war. And fighting a fringe issue war. You need to just look there. And people should ask themselves, is that is that what we aspire to? I'd rather live in Pakistan than. live in the UK. I'm being serious. I think it's the most depressing. country on the planet for the. reasons that you just described. There's something about decline. that's that's it's hard. to it's hard to describe. But when you're there, you feel it's.

terrible. It's soul. It's so much worse. You're, you're much better off, to. your point, being in a developing. nation on the come up than you are. being interested in your being in a. There are over 200,000 Brits. in UAE right now. Right in UAE which they formerly. controlled until not that long ago. And now there's a massive outflow. there with far more Brits. in the Emirates than there are. Emiratis and Britons. So the thing that we need to do, I think, as a Western set of. nations, is we need to. understand.

And agree on the fact that. governance over this last decade has. totally and miserably failed. By focusing on these fringe issues. and by losing sight of these global. priorities. I'll give you a. different example. At the end of the global financial. crisis, Canada emerged. as the healthiest G7. country out of all of us. They were doing phenomenally well, low debt to GDP, phenomenal. growth. And then over those intervening 17.

years, they focused on all. kinds of fringe issues, rampant open immigration, poor allocation of risk capital. inside of inside of Canada. They've allowed this incredible. flight of human capital to the. United States. Yeah. And now today, if Canada were to. join. The United States, it would be. poorer than Alabama on a per capita. basis. Yeah. And much more depressing. So what has happened.

In case there's a vibe shift from. countries decline? It's not simply a matter of GDP. moving in the wrong direction. It's the spirit. Spirit of the country is palpably. different and sad. I mean, it's why so many Canadians. accept their government's invitation. to kill them through the maids. program. Their suicide rate is. insane. Why is that? That's not a measure, a sign. of health or vigor. or ascendance. That's a sign of, you know, terminal decline. It's like shocking. You're from there. When you go back, what does it feel. like? You know, my my dad passed away.

ten years ago. My mom now comes to. see us. So I rarely go back. Actually, I'm going to be back in. February for a little bit. I've always felt like a fish out of. water in Canada. I've loved it for many reasons. I think that it had had. some principles back then that I. think are very legitimate and I. think should exist in the United. States. The most important being. a capped cost of higher education. I spent. $12,000 a year to get an.

electrical engineering degree. from a place called the University. of Waterloo, which globally is. as good, frankly, better than MIT. If I had to be in the United States. and if I had gotten into MIT, which. I probably would not have, but. had I been able to. I'd be 100 or $200,000. in debt. And so had I not had this. lottery ticket for me pay off. with an IPO and working at Facebook. I don't know where I would be today. That's crazy. So there are things in. Canada, I think, and.

we should acknowledge that does. really right. That is probably. the most important thing that it. does, right? And I think the idea of a state. sponsored health care system, it's. implemented horribly poorly. But there are elements of that where. I think. especially around sort of capped. costs, which I think are important, Meaning, you know, in the. United States, a health care CEO was. telling me, when you look inside of. an EMR system, the electronic. medical care system, let's say, Tucker, you're a doctor and you did.

a knee surgery. You would have a hundred different. prices attached to you. Depending on the plan, depending on. the insurer. That's dumb. You are one person. Those are one set of hands. That's what a surgery. It's one quality. The idea that one person is lucky. enough to pay $1,000 deductible and. the other person has to pay 15,000. is an egregious market failure. It's just egregious. So. Tucker Carlson, the best.

knee surgeon in America, if. he charges 2000 and he charges 2000. for everybody. That seems fair. It does seem fair. Seems much more efficient. I just can't. Now, everything else in Canada is. broken, I think. But those two as. well. Their health care system is a. disaster. The implementation then of the of. the system. So my question is, you know, it's. like one of those things that I'm. not against it in theory, but I. can't think of. I mean. National health system doesn't work. and health care system doesn't work. I mean, is there a working national. system?

Yes, I think that. You need to have competition. I think you need to have. There's a hybrid that the United. States could implement that is not. NHS or the Canadian system. But it's not just. a pure free market, free. for all. It's a little bit inbetween. And let me describe what the. in-between parts are. Medicare is an incredibly important. insurance program in the United. States.

I think it stands to reason that. Medicare should have its own PBM. If Medicare was able to negotiate, you know, an extremely aggressive. price for drugs, it. sets the boundary for what is. allowable. For everybody else and for. folks that are 65 and older than. now, they have a very viable. alternative to use that. It also creates transparency around. the variation in pricing, number one. Number two, there needs.

to be a way where a private. insurer. Can build up some credit. For doing things today that may. only pay off for that. employee in the future. when he's no longer an employee. So, for example, you worked at Fox. Should the Fox insurance program. have put you on to start making this. up? Have put you on a stand in your. early 40s. to help you manage your. Right. I'm not saying you have. rising cholesterol, but you know, if.

you had that because in 10. or 15 years from now, it would. help. a potential cardiac arrest or. heart attack. Yeah. A lot of the companies that are. faced with this decision today say. we're not going to do that because. you may not be an employee in 15. years. So why am I paying now for. something where I get the benefits? But that's a simple health care. economics market solution. We should have those. We should give private insurers. incentives.

You know, in some cases, maybe the. right thing to do is to put people. on Mozambican Mujuru. Do the work now. I understand that that employee may. be retired by the time that, you know, they they. may need that. But it was the right thing to do for. that person for having worked for. you for 15 or 20 years. Another thing. With A.I. today. You can read all. of these insurance plans. And you should have a standard way. of knowing that a condition.

is going to get approved or not. before it starts. And that needs to be auditable. It cannot be where. you need like a PhD and. five different people to read these. insurance plans. And then all of a sudden a random. person can make an economic. decision to say no. That's also where, you know, simple. technology can get built to build. very strict guardrails.

What is approved, what is not. approved, have it be known, have. it be auditable, be in. a log so that, you know, people can just simply escalate. Hey, that person got his approved. and mine was dinged. Why? So there's all these little things. to like make the system better. It needs to be more open. You need to have, for example, a. different on the case of open. It is highly unlikely that you've. ever tried to get all of your health. care data. Impossible. Now, you would say to. math, why would I need that? Maybe there's an agent that can.

actually be your doctor in your. pocket that just works for Tucker. You know, it's the person that. is constantly reading. my every interaction with the health. care system to tell me what they. think. It's my own second opinion. That's not a bad idea. That's a very low cost thing. to do. Except you can't get the. data. Why can't you get the data? Because there's federal regulations. and most people don't listen to. them. Federal regulations, tough guy says you have to be able. to download your data.

These companies make it very hard. because they know the more open it. becomes, it induces. competition. Exactly. Competition that will show. up will probably be infinitely. better. So I'm going to do everything I can. to block it. And, you know, the federal and state. governments don't do enough in. America. We do things a little differently, and we always have. But the British said, hey, we're. going to tax your favorite morning. beverage. The Revolutionary Sons of Liberty. said no. And they poured the entire shipment. of tea and to Boston Harbor and.

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I. So I. I start companies. Yeah. But when I don't see something that. I think I can start right away. And there's somebody that's a little. bit in the lead I'll just invest in. I'll just take a large piece so that. I can help guide them. One of those businesses where I'm. the largest shareholder has been. working on breast cancer. surgery. And today, across America, for. every ten women that go and get. diagnosed with breast cancer.

Three of the surgeries are. leave cancer behind. Ouch. Send the way that it works as you go. in for what's called. So there's two different kinds of. breast cancer surgery. There's a lumpectomy, which is. Yes, take out the lump or a. mastectomy, which is take out the. entire breast. And in the lumpectomy, you have to have you. visualize with your own eyes. whether you think most of the cancer. is gone. You close up the woman in, you take that sample, you. give it to a pathologist.

And typically between 7 and 11. days, which is how long it takes. because they're clogged up and. there's backlog. They'll look under a microscope and. visually inspect and say, actually, sorry. 30% of the time they say. you left some cancer behind. So now that woman has to those three. women have to go back, they get. another surgery. But again, 30% error rate. They do it again. And then one of those women gets. dings. So now one woman has had. three breast cancer surgeries. That is happening today.

Now, if you go to a really, really. good teaching. hospital, that error rate will. be 5% because the docs are. incredible. If you go to an overly zealous. doctor, that error rate. will also be low. But you'll come. in for a lumpectomy, you'll end up. with a mastectomy. Kind of a thing. They'll just take out so much of. that and that creates a. disfiguration. So this company basically. says, hold on a second, I'll just. use A.I., I'll look right.

down to the granular, microscopic. level. I'll take an extremely high res. picture. My brain will be trained on only. this one task. Is there cancer? Is there no cancer? So we built it. And it's in a bunch of the leading. hospitals in America. But we had to file with the FDA. to be allowed to tell the doctor. Right. Because like, we. know. We can see it.

And so we ran a 18 month. trial. You know, it cost us 10. or 15 million bucks. And we met our endpoint. In November. We can now absolutely. be sure that the cancer was removed. or not removed. Now we have to package all of that. up. We filed it with. the FDA. We've been told we'll get approval. by June and. then we'll be able to sell.

Meaning sell this software upgrade. so that essentially in the operating. room, instead of having to wait for. the pathologist's 7 to 11 days. later, the doctor will. do the lumpectomy, put it in the. machine, and instantly you'll say, Tucker, you need to take out a. little bit more. The margins are not. right. Tucker Perfect job. Closer up. That's using while the patient's. sedated. Yeah. Wow. That is using A.I.. And that can get breast cancer. surgeries. To be so prolifically good.

that the error rate goes to zero. The impact on the quality of. life of those women. and then by extension, their. families, their kids that have to. deal with that stress as well. can go away. So that's a profound impact of. AI that you're going to see in the. next year. We could quibble that this should. have been faster, could have cost a. lot less money, meaning. it cost me the same amount of money. to get this trial done as it cost. that Chinese company to build a. digital brain that's as good as.

OpenAI or Facebook. That's crazy. But whatever. Okay, put a pin in it. We did it. We'll file and. we'll move forward. You know, we play the rules that are. on the field, even if the rules make. no sense and there's hard to tell. anybody. Change the rules. But it is what it is. That's an example. Elon published some data yesterday, which is incredibly profound, which is. He has an AI. brain inside of the Tesla. And the ability.

to drive safely on the highway. Became seven and a half x better. than his previous version, and his. previous version was already. ten times better than a normal car. Which means when you get on. the highway, you engage. FSD. It's called his. version of autopilot. For the car. And it was already ten times better. Now it's seven times better than not. ten times. To not get into an accident.

So the idea about. using A.I. now to just eliminate all the. unnecessary deaths that happen. because of traffic mishaps, there's the potential where that. goes to zero. That's today as well. Again, his issue isn't. technological. His issue is going to be regulatory. At what speed will. people be able to be. comfortable letting him. take people from point A to point B?

In yet a different example. There are all of these. small airplane companies, they're. called EV. So it's not not a plane, not a. helicopter, but it's kind of this. hybrid thing in between. And they have this autopilot. where it's like taking off with. in a in a in a no pilot. configuration, piloting. it in the air, which is much. simpler, by the way, than driving on. the ground and then landing. And you have the ability to now.

just create a level of. transportation which increases GDP. And that is an AI brain that's. calculating all the system variables. around itself. Being able to fly safely. Getting from point A to point B, you. don't have to drive seven hours. It's a 40 minute hop, skip and a. jump now. So now go and do your job. and come back. All of these things are happening. right now. We are gated on. the regulatory machine, which are unfortunately not filled.

with enough actual technologists. It's mostly bureaucrats teaching. them, getting them comfortable that, you know, what do we intend with all. of this? We intend of reversing this thought. lost decade. We just want to get to work and. build a thing so that America kicks. us. David Satcher cohost is now the. air also crypto. Amazing. Well, it is amazing. And I'll just. Say he is an amazing human being. Know he really is like he is a guy. I agree. I had to teach Saxe how to hug. properly.

How did it. Can. Can you show me how you did that? You know, sax sax was a side. hugger, which I can't. I can see. This. Like I'm not a side hugger. Yeah. You're going to give me a hug. And we've been, you know, really, really close friends for 20 years. now. So it's like, bro, learn to. learn to hug. And we have all of these videos. where like, over the course of like. four years, you know, I had to take his arm and. teach how you. Did video training. Yeah. Like, I had to teach him how. to put up with him and me. You know, his wife would take video. It's like socks.

You got to put your arm this way. And then he's like, okay, now you. have to, you know, put your head. over here. He is. He's a brilliant guy. So you taught sax how to hug? Yeah. I mean, he he taught me. everything else, but I taught. him. So your show All. in. I did it last year. I did it because David asked me. And I love David. I had no sense of its penetration. I had no idea. I'm not in business. I'm not in technology. You know, I drive a stick shift.

I'm kind of the opposite of that. And I just didn't realize. Everybody watches. It's unbelievable. It's unbelievable. I heard from people I hadn't seen. since early childhood. I heard from. I was stunned by it. So what's it like for you? Obviously well known in Silicon. Valley, Facebook. and your investment business. But I mean, it's a much larger. audience and much fun. So what has that been like? I mean, I think it's it's made me.

much cooler. for my older kids, my managers. You know, they use these words which. I just can't stand, but they're. like, you know, if somebody comes up. and says hi and we take a picture, they're like, Dad, there was some. good ribs or, you know, they'll. be like, Yeah, that was okay, good, or that good or. And so we make fun of it. Like, you know, I will turn to them. and I'll be like, in the car. Be like, Guys, shut up. You know, they'll be making a lot of. noise. They're like, Why? And then I'll turn up because I'm a. very important part cancer.

So we get it. You expect that and you So like most. of the people on the podcast, when. we all are, you know, don't need to. be doing podcasts, you're not doing. it for the money, obviously. So this starts. as like for fun or why did. you how did you end up doing that? It actually big started because. our poker game me sacks. Jay Kyle Freberg, the four co-hosts, we were four of the kind. of like the regular everyday players. When the Covid shelter in place. happened, we weren't allowed.

to go out. And so we started to zoom to each. other and then we just. started to record and then we just. threw it up on YouTube because we. would, you know, we would ask. Freberg to teach us about the. disease and the science of it all. Then, you know, we would all take. turns riffing on how frustrated we. were at Newsome, and then we would kind of post it, and then it just took on a life. of its own. And yeah, fast forward four years. I mean, we've done, you know, an. episode a week.

I think it had a we got very lucky. because it happened in a moment. I think you. and Joe Rogan are two of the. more leading examples of this. But. the traditional media is totally. dead. Yes. There was a stat today, The Washington Post's traffic in the. last four years had gone from 20.5. million viewers to three. Is that incredible that 70.5 million. monthly monthly. users to 3 million?

So the question is, in that vacuum, it's not as. if the American population shrank. It's grown. What is the sense making. Or news stopped happening? Actually, much more supported news. Yeah, exactly. More news is. happening. So I think it's important to rebuild. the sense making. And I think we. accidentally found ourselves. making sense of things that are. happening to people. like explain this technology. thing. Explain this business. thing.

Explain this political thing. Not not necessarily so deeply. But connecting the dots so that you. could have a slightly better world. view. And I think that that's been helpful. for people. That's been really fun for me. Well, apparently. And then Trump comes on. I mean, he is he is really. incredible. You know, I didn't know. what to expect. And then David and I threw a. fundraiser for him. I mean, I think. part of where all of this started. was David called me in June.

So actually taking a step back. He and I had always been active in. politics. He was a. you know. Died. He was he was a. tried and true conservative. Yes. From the beginning, I was a little bit more promiscuous. I didn't really understand. how to make my political beliefs fit. into one of. these vessels. But for the most part, in the last. few years, like everybody else, I. got lulled into buying.

into a lot of the Democratic. lines. And I was a large donor to. the Democrats. And it all started. to unravel for me in. 2020 because. I didn't understand Covid. Then I got the vaccine. only to realize that it was, you know, not a vaccine. And I was really upset. My a couple of my kids really. struggled with what happened. to them by not being able to go to.

school. And I was like, why hasn't the. government intervened and gotten my. kids back in school? All of these things just made me. super frustrated. So I started to question maybe I. wasn't seeing things right and. maybe I was, you know, reacting. more with my ego. And the answer was, yeah, I actually. like, you know, the Democrats are. extremely charming. and they can play a very. sophisticated game where. they make you feel exclusive. And that's part of the shtick of how. they get money from you. I mean, I remember and I would tell.

these stories as a point of pride. Now, I tell it as a warning to. myself. I was sitting at dinner with Obama. the day of Brexit, and, you know, that very famous kind of. moment where, like, you know, Andrew. Card passed that piece of paper to. George Bush. Yes, there was a. version of that moment. Obviously much less important, but were some. Summer of 16. Where somebody like passes a note to. Obama and he goes home. This is like we were in San. Francisco and it was like at 8. or 9 p.m. and he's like, wow, the UK. just voted to leave.

So I remember where I was that day. But those kinds of moments. made me feel. that maybe I was doing the right. thing. Right. And then all of my businesses just. kept running up against these brick. walls. Over and over and over again. Every time I tried to do something. good that I thought was valuable, it would bump up against all of this. stupid regulation. and slow back. And every time I looked at who they. were, they were all supposedly.

on the same team that I was in. So I said, Forget. this. I have to start from first. principles. So in 2023. and Saks and I decided. we're going to start throwing. fundraisers. For a whole variety of candidates. So the first one was at his house. We threw a fundraiser for RFK. We got to meet Bobby. It was exhilarating. And, you know, for the first time, you have this person speaking truth. to power. Then at my house, we threw a.

fundraiser for Vivek. David and I did that together. And then David called me and said, Let's do a fundraiser for Trump. And I said, Absolutely. And I think that that started the. Check with your wife first. That's quite a statement. She's very. Supportive. You know, my my you know, my. wife, she's in the life sciences business. But, you know, she's always. been like. You have to make these decisions. not from how other people will.

perceive you, but what do you feel? And she's explained to me, Bobby Kennedy explained to me, Vivek. explained to me Donald Trump. In your own words that isn't tied to. all. Here's what other people will. think of me. Ask you this. And then when I did that, she was. like, okay, let's do it. Let's do it. And I mean, Trump is unbelievably. True at the time, just for. because I sort of understand the. cultural context. You know, it was very it was a very. tough moment, kind of ballsy. It was very ballsy. People I got the amount of like hate.

text messages. I should have kept. some of them. They're probably still. on my phone, actually. But people were very. mad. And part of I think why they were. mad is they were afraid. Meaning there was a lie. that Biden was sharp as a tack. And myself and David. had not really dismantled the lie. beyond just saying it looks like a. lie. And I think that they were worried. that it would create, I think what. Peter Thiel calls this, which I. really agree with, is a preference.

cascade. Yes, that's. Right. You know, like Peter is a. genius, but he is on an island. many years ahead of the rest of us. Then there are other people, you. know, like me and David to some. degree, who are also sort of like we. can kind of see the patterns not. nearly as fast as a Peter. But then we do a decent job of. translating it for other folks. So I think people are afraid if. these guys translate. Their interactions with Donald Trump. into the truth. It's going to tip a lot of people. And they were right because.

when Trump came. Wow. I mean, like. Had you met him. Before, by the way? He had called me, so I'd had a. telephone conversation. So I knew what he was like on the. phone. That's when I knew I'd made a. mistake before about, like, believing what the press was. saying. That's where I went back. And I looked at the Charlottesville. press conference and I looked. at all of them again. After my phone call, when the. president called me. I was like, hold on a second.

This man was. Incredibly charming. Polite, kind. He just like you. But what I honestly thought, Tucker, I called my wife aside. He was raised by really good. parents. That's what I said to them. That's what I said to my wife. Because you can tell in your kids, you know, like when you see kids. around and and there are. some they are polite, they're kind. They mean by contact. Yes, there are these I don't want. to call them simple, but there are. these building blocks of being.

a human being. That you need to be taught by your. parents. He was taught. And I have tremendous respect for. that. So then when I saw him. at David's house, I. mean, it's it's like. It's. It's pretty incredible. Like, it's like a it's a larger than. life figure. And he's extemporaneous. He talks for an hour and a half. He's going all over the place. He's doing the the weave. You know, it's incredible.

And so I was. He's hilarious, too. He's very funny. Yes. Which is really hard to be, actually. Yes. And and so I walked away thinking, wow, I had got it now totally. wrong. And I was lied to. And I believed at. a very superficial level. what the mainstream media was. saying. And then I did even more research. You know, I read the lawsuits. and it was just the the amount. of contortion that. people were going through. to try to prevent this man from.

getting into power made me. want him to be in power even. Less. Because I thought they're afraid. of something that something they're. not going to say out loud. But that is the thing that we need. to exorcize from the US government. Yes. That that thing that they want. to protect. That's right. It's not even now clear exactly. It's just it's disclosure of some. kind. They fear being, you know, revealed. But yeah, that's different. And then, you know, different from. his first time around.

The caliber of the people around. them. It's like it's like the 92. Barcelona, you know, dream. team, as far as I can tell. I mean, like, my gosh, like. you get Ellen, you get Vivek, you. get RFK, you get Tulsi, you get all of these people, you. know, Howard Lutnick. David Saks, David Saks. Scott Percent. This is this is amazing. We're telling you about an amazing. documentary series from our friend. Sean Stone called All the. President's Men The Conspiracy. Against Trump. It is a series of interviews.

with people at the very heart of the. first Trump term, many of whom are close to the heart. of the second Trump term. This is their stories about what. permanent Washington tried to do to. them. In many cases, send them to. prison for the crime of supporting. Donald Trump. Their words have never been more. relevant than they are now. Steve Bannon, Cash Patel. I'm in there. Even All the. President's Men, The Conspiracy. against Trump and you will find it. only on TV on Tucker carlson.com. Highly recommended.

So what is the view? I remember that. I remember vividly. the day that you all had that. fundraiser for Trump and thinking, this is I never thought I would. live to see this. This is like a. major change, major, major change. Was there a major change in. attitudes in Silicon Valley toward. Trump after that? After that, Yeah, because it gave. permission. You know, David is very. complimentary to me.

In that. Because I was a little bit more. promiscuous and not necessarily. just a straight hard line. Republican. Yep. It was it was a little bit more. valuable, I think, for that cohort. of people because they could kind of. say, well, if it's, you know, Jamal. said it out, then yeah, sure. But I think that he. probably took a lot of heat as well. And more than that, what he. did was he then said, you know, I'm really going to put my foot on. the gas here. And he's great at.

this, which is just like, I'm. going to tip the preference cascade. So then he went to the Republican. convention. He spoke. He you know, he did a lot. and his wife did a lot there. That's a real dynamic power. Couple of those two. And then Marc Andreessen came out. and. Then Andreessen came out. and it was funny, like the Andreasen. thing was so a little bit. interesting. I don't think the full. details, so I'm just speculating. But you know, it did turn out that. his partner also gave like 50 or 100.

million bucks to Kamala, which. I suspect then that Mark probably. gave 50 or 100 million to Trump. It looked like they were splitting. it. Yeah, but so what was it. like, though, living there, living. in in, you know, among. the people you work with and have. worked with? Like, how did people. There was like there was a initial. part where people do this, you know? Yeah. It's like that. And I felt that because I'm very. sensitive to that. Yes. You know, and I my feelings get hurt.

Yes. And I get super annoyed by it. Yeah. I think you call it the. private equity Wives. For me, it was like the private. equity husbands as well. Yeah, they all do. That's really shameful. That's that they all. They all just. like kind of like a scowl. And then after the election, it was. more like a and. I'm like, what changed? Well, what that's I felt that. across the country. What is how would you describe. I think a lot of people. Are not necessarily fighting. in.

A moral or ideological battle, Tucker. I think people are just trying to. get from one day to the next. Day for sure. And and I respect that. At first, I was hurt by it because I. didn't understand it. And I thought, again, goes back to, I'm worthless. I guess there's. something about me that is why. you're rejecting me. And I realized. has nothing to do with me. This person is just. Today is a day. Tomorrow's a day. And they're not. fighting these battles. Doesn't make them better nor worse. It's just a different.

For me. I'm caught up in my own head about. having to do something. a little bit more ideological. and morally rooted because I need. that so that I feel like. there's purpose. Of course, not everybody is built. that way. And I wasn't built that. way. Once people are distracted by their. day to day concerns. Yeah. And I think that that's very fair. So, you know, I kind of leave it to. them as what they are. It's I think. it's good that their minds are open. and their eyes are open. So the the way that this.

is going to be really tested now is. what's happening in California. There are if you look at the. Palisades, which is. an incredibly affluent area, you. Know, beautiful place. Beautiful place, and has. just been decimated. And several of my very good friends. lost their homes there. They were tried. and true Democrats. It didn't matter. what the candidate's name was beside. the box in the ballot. They checked it and they moved on.

And now the real test for them is. what do they do? Will they look through. the label and actually. look at the policies and ask, did these help or hurt me? All of these things that I give. money to, all these NGOs and. nonprofits. Did they help or hurt me? California has a $322. billion a year budget. Do I, as a taxpayer who. pays some of the highest taxes in. the nation? Have a right to ask where that money.

is being spent. And if the answer to all those. questions is it doesn't matter, check the box, then we deserve what. we get in California. But it can be much better. Because today the state is totally. broken. We have lost. the script. We don't prioritize California's. economic supremacy. Nor its technological supremacy. That is a huge mistake when you look. at the number of companies that have.

left the state, Oracle, Tesla, Chevron. I mean, this is not like just fringe. businesses. No. These are the businesses that. matter. And they're voting with their feet. I mean, it does feel like the. tipping point is here, though. I mean, you said that. I would not underestimate. the Democratic machine. It's a cartel that runs that state. I know. And Gavin Newsom is extremely. charismatic. And he is able to.

Convince people of things that are. just not true. And so he is fighting. for his political life. He definitely wants to be on the. national stage. And so the real question is, is he able to convince. enough people that this was the. environment and. that these winds came out of. nowhere? Or will it be laid bare. at his feet, that it was.

just a lack of skill, intellectual. rigor and distraction. and negligence and incompetence. that caused this fire? I mean, I think you make a pretty. strong case for the latter, you. know? You know, I found that there were. three bills. That started in the legislature. that were either approved by the. legislature and were then vetoed. by Newsom or were then pulled down. by the legislature itself. Again, this is like Democrats on. Democrat violence.

To just give a waiver. to all of these local municipalities. to go and clear the brush. Just that. Clear the brush. Now, would that have stopped the. fire? No, I get that it wouldn't. have stopped the fire. But, you. know, the intensity of a fire. is directly proportional to the. energy load that you give it. To the fuel, of course. So take away some of the fuel and. the fire will be less. And if we can't even admit that. plain truth, this is what I mean by. if we're going to continue to just. lie to ourselves because we care so. much about this failed ideology,

then then California is going. to just continue to just degrade. But there's a point. I mean, you see the same thing in. New York City where if the. you know, the engines of the economy. leave because it is a, you know, a country with 50 states, you know, there's a point where the. math doesn't work. And it things just decline so. quickly that it's hard to recover. The thing it is true. But the thing that is important to. keep in mind about California. is sometimes you get lucky.

and we have to acknowledge our luck, but not frittered away. Specifically in California, there is a critical mass of. these 50,000 Michael Jordan. engineers. Yes. You cannot rebuild Silicon Valley. by casting it to the four winds. Some people go to Peoria, Illinois. Some people end up in Boston, some. are in Miami, some are in Las Vegas, some are in Austin. All fine and good, but that. is not the place or the way. to create the technical vibrancy.

we need to generate technical. supremacy. You need these people. close and around you so that. they're. Not. Pollinating from each other's. And this is again, where why hasn't. the state realized that that is an. incredibly critical resource? Well, at this point, with, you know, the decline of agg. and the entertainment business and. aerospace, I don't. really know what drives the economy. of California other than technology. Well, right now, if you look at. California's employment based. employment, the employment.

picture is quite scary because it is. government jobs that are convoluted. and how healthy the actual state is. Right. So if you take away the. government jobs, but at the end. of the day, what do government. bureaucrats do? They want to govern. How do they do that? They're going to legislate or. they're going to regulate. Where is that felt? It's felt on private industry and. private citizens. But eventually, at the limit, the. amount of regulation goes to. infinity and they're legislating. themselves into oblivion. Right. Nobody will be there to.

legislate to be governed. by all of this insanity. because everybody will leave. And first, the people that leave. are the people that can leave. Then the people that leave are the. people that have to leave. And we're in the first part. It's clear that people know people. who've left. Many, many, many. Have you thought about it? Yeah. I mean, look, my again, I'll tell you, in terms of my poker. game. Half of that half. of those people that have been my. lifelong friends for 20 years have. left Half.

Where'd they go? Austin. Miami, Texas. And Florida. Yeah, Texas and. Florida. And it's just so frustrating. And they've left because they can't. build things. The taxes were like secondary. One of my friends left because, you know, one of their children went. through, you know, a bit of an identity crisis, if you. want to call it that. Yes. And the police showed up and wanted.

to, you know, take the kid away. You know, so that the kid could go. through like a transition, that the. kid ultimately decided they didn't. want to go through. The police showed up. Yeah, Yeah, that's the law in. California. So, like, encourage it. I'm not sure if it's to encourage. it, but I my understanding of the. way this works is if you if you as. a child have these issues. and you escalate that. there's a requirement for the school. to basically call child protective. services who may or may not call the.

police, who may or may not come to. your house and try to take the. getaway. You know, so. So they're not your children in. California is basically what they're. saying. Well, they're your children to the. point where the government believes. that they know better. And that's just I mean, any. government that presumes to know. better than parents. is an out of control, scary. government. I mean, look, I, I try to. think of myself as a good parent. I try to do the best I can. Do I make mistakes? Yeah, sure. But am I generally more, you know, better for my kids than.

some other random adult. also? Yeah. Yeah, strongly. Right. And so, like, the idea that. just some random person in an office. somewhere can read some piece of. paper and all of a sudden take your. kids away. Yeah, that's very scary. It's very scary. It makes me feel. very insecure, that idea. What's keeping you there? I'm very stubborn. And I feel very grateful. I feel very grateful to America. I feel very grateful to California.

It gave me a path. That I would not have had anywhere. else. And so I have a responsibility to. stay and fix it. Good for you. I feel guilty that I left. Because it's the prettiest state. I mean, nothing comes close. So to get driven out of where. you grew up and where your ancestors. lived is pretty. It's better. But I did it.

So does it change? Does the state change? It's a one party state. Clearly it does. It's enormously corrupt, as you. know, and wasteful. And now it's fallen down on its most. basic obligation, which is to keep. your house from burning down. Exactly. So does that. And force change politically. I think people need. to force the change now. It has to force change. People have to understand that these. labels mean nothing. Meaning? Yeah, you could have the smartest. person in the world and the dumbest.

person in the world. You cannot vote for the dumbest. person in the world just because the. label beside them is something. Something you've been told is wrong. Exactly. That is just the height of. stupidity. It's not what you're. allowed to do as an adult. Adults aren't allowed to do that. Your kids can do that. Right? And you're supposed to teach your. kids that that's not how you make. decisions when you're an adult. On the basis of labels brands. It's it's so stupid, childish. There are some really competent. people that are in that state.

that will. Try now to come out. of the woodwork to do the right. thing, to deregulate. California. California has 60,000. regulations on the books. It was 10,000 less than a decade. ago. Go back to 10,000. Go to 5000. What are we afraid of? Are you afraid of the breast cancer. thing that could get to market. faster? Are you afraid that humans, you. know, autopilot, can now save. people's lives more? Are you afraid that we can catch.

rockets? And then send them back to. the stars in the heavens and Mars. Why is that. Bad? Well, the point of regulation. is to. is to encourage guarantee health. and safety. And growing up in California, it was a healthy state. It was the healthiest states where. they could tell. And it was it was a. very safe state. And it's neither one of those. things. It's one of the least. healthy states. There's more poverty in California. than any state. Autism rates are the highest in the.

country, and it's dangerous. in a lot of ways. So, like it's not working, I guess. that's what I would say. The real. issue. Is my point. It's not working. So how long do. you know well-heeled Democratic. voters need to see their state. run over, need to see their lives. ruined and now their kids lives are. ruined? And maybe this is the thing that. actually. Well, you tell me you live among. them. Like, do you see the change. coming? So not where. I live because the only. the only thing that the only.

damage that has ever. happened in Silicon Valley is. economic damage. But then it's righted itself. Right? And so people just go. and move along blindly in the. orthodoxy. It's only when your business is at. risk where you're flip. So, you know, you've seen kind of. like I have a total, you know, come to Jesus moment. Yeah. What's that? Have you talked to. Get Dr.. Burke about it? No, Mark and I have. You know, I gave the speech at. Stanford in 2016.

Which went pretty viral, which kind. of laid bare what was going on in. social media. And he and I have not spoken since. Wow. Yeah. Well, knowing him as you do. and for as long as you have, what do. you make of his Joe Rogan. appearance? I think it's a calculation to. manage. The conditions on the field. Meaning what I said on the. pod is. All you need to know are two things. One is there's an incredible picture.

in Donald Trump's book, which is a picture of Zuck sitting. in the Oval. And by the way, this is the same. book which you have to get. It's the book where, like, you know, he talks about, you know, Trudeau's. mom kind of like casting. about with the Rolling Stones and. like, you. Know, not just casting about rolling. about. Yeah, rolling about. And like, you know, he's like Fidel. Castro's lovechild anyways. But in that book is a picture of Zac. and it says, You know, Zac was the. nicest guy to my face. But then would, you know, work. against me to turn over the.

election. And, you know, I've made it very clear that if he. tries to do anything like that. again, he'll go to prison for the. rest of his life. That's what that's. what Trump says in the caption. And then he was asked about that. last week, the exact same. day that matter changed their their. policies. And he said, Do you think it was in. response to what you said and the. president said, probably. So I think it's a very. smart but necessary set of. calculations. But I think they are calculations. So what are his highest values?

What are his first principles? Zach Yeah. I mean, I'd only be guessing. But an informed guess since you know. him. You know, I think that he, he's a. well, I think that he's a very big. fan. Of the Roman Empire. If I had to translate. And guess how that manifests in his. day to day decision making? I think he thinks of things. empirically, meaning. like as an empire. And he has an empire.

You know, he has Facebook, WhatsApp, Instagram, you know, messenger. These are institutional. worldwide products in the. in the digital sphere. He is wrong. And so I think that he cares about. the propagation. Of that empire, probably more than he cares about. any philosophical trends per. se.

Because, you know, the empire. endures if you can. manage the vicissitudes of trends. That's right. So when the trend was. under the Democrats to build a. censorship machine, you know, you do that. And then when the trend is. to do the opposite, you'll do the. opposite. But he said to me a number of times. and over a number of years, you know, off camera, but has. said, you know, basically I'm a. kind of 70s liberal. and I really believe in free speech.

You think that's true? Sure. I think that that's not the. question. Apparently not. He has you know, he controls. Facebook with an iron fist. He has complete voting control. He has less economic participation. But, you know, he has he has. absolute power. And that was the justification in. some ways of explaining how he made. these changes now. It doesn't explain why.

it veered in the other direction. That. And I think it's important to just. probably get the answer to that and. then you'll know where he stands. You know, meaning the the economic. power has ebbed and flowed, but the. absolute power has never changed. So, you know the philosophy. that he believed in, then if it's. the same now, then the question is, well, why did the manifestation of. that power change? Well, he's basically said the I was. bullied by the national security. state. I can believe that, too. By the way, I'm sympathetic to that. I mean, that's got to feel like a. lot of pressure when you're a young. guy on the come up and a bunch of.

these well-heeled politicos show up. at your office and say, you know, bend the knee. When you go fuck yourself. That's what I would say. Maybe that's why I'm not a billionaire. But it's like unbelievable. that happens in this country. It's like shocking. There are there are billionaires. that have said, go fuck yourself. Yeah, I know, I know. And they and they and they've. become, you know, even more. successful as a result. So that I mean, the richest man the. world did that. So what is his role. in Ellen's role in the. in the new administration, do you. think? I think he's the heartbeat.

Here's what I mean by that. I've thought about this. It is the most important temperature. check that we are. going to. make, the changes that Donald Trump. wants. Meaning, I think the. president. In some ways is the most powerful. job. But he's. But I think this second term is more. of a vessel in the sense that he's. got all of these great field. generals. Who can now run the place. And of all the field generals, the.

one that has just an incremental, more degree of freedom. To also communicate. openly and continuously with the. public as him. So you'll get a sense of whether. there's an arrhythmia by just. monitoring his X feed. You'll also get a sense of. whether there's like a you know, like if the drumbeat is building. I think you get a sense of that from. Mylan as well. I think he is the. he's the heartbeat. So do you think that Ellen's ex feed. is a kind of pretty accurate window.

into what he's thinking? Yeah. And that that's what's so powerful. And this is why I think, you. know, when you compare and contrast. Zach with Ellen, it's I think. Zach is like every other. CEO. And Ellen is just a complete. singular outlier. in the sense that. There is no book. that would have told you. Just tell the truth. Grounded in your morality from day. one and. just burn the boats. You know that old Cortez line?

Of course. And people would have said what? And so whatever he's felt, he's. shared in complete. truth and candor. No other CEOs ever done that, and probably no one will ever will, because you can't do it as a. strategy and you can't. implement it on day 17. or day 1004. It's you either are or you're not. And so he sets a way. of behavior that future. CEOs should emulate.

But we also have to a little bit. give a break and cut some slack to. everybody else because they're just. never going to do as good a job as. him in doing. that. How is he seen in Silicon Valley? He's a star here, but he's a kind. guy. Like, I mean, you know him as. well. But like. this, I just I think that people. should know this. Like, this is a. kind. He's a kind guy. He's like, I think he's a beautiful. person. He's a kind guy. I don't know what to say. Like, has. Any American ever had this much.

power? Gosh. Meaning like the intersection of. private and public industry kind of. thing. Yeah, I just I can't think of I. mean, of course, the president has. the power to launch nuclear weapons. so that that trumps all power. But, but as a private citizen, non a non president, I can't think of any time. in 250 years where an American. has had as much power as Elon Musk.

has. I mean, the sense that, you know, he's the most successful businessman. by many measures. He runs the most. powerful media outlet in the world, which is X, And he has, you know, this. mandate from the newly elected. president, nine states to to change. the government. I mean, nothing like. those ever happened that I know of. Yeah. It's like, Yeah, I mean, I. guess so. You know, I guess it hasn't. happened. Why did he buy X?

Because as a business decision is. kind of hard to justify. Well, there is. It happened in a moment where I. think that there was the. intersection of. a lot of free speech issues. And I just think like there was like. some, you know, stuff. I'm not going to get into, but like. personal stuff, I think probably in. his own life. And it just. like made him question like, what? What are these philosophies? What are these ideologies and how.

destructive are they? If we can't if we if we can't. question things and talk out loud? And so. We all got very lucky. He paid the personal. This is what I mean by like. Like, everybody can be like, wow, it's so easy. Must be amazing. It's not that. That's like, I would crumble under. the weight of that. I don't think I'm capable of that. I know that about, like. Easy at. All. My God. And like, the price you pay. The personal price you pay.

I can do it. I think it's a he's a unique person. that way. His capacity for pain. His capacity for just. just the sheer. drudgery. Like just drudgery. Like just. It's incredible. I've never seen. anything. I've never seen anything. like it. I mean, I guess in this. context, you know, I've been around. two of these incredible. figures. Mark, I worked in the trenches with. Eli, and I've, you know, seen now. for 15 plus years. And I mean, when you think about.

those two. Yeah. With Elan there listening, credible intellectual curiosity. An incredible amount of. ability to suffer pain and. suffering. And yet he's incredibly kind. I don't know how. He also seems to. I don't understand how he does. everything. How do you tweet that much run that. many companies also. have that many children also.

You know, he's a gamer, I guess. Like what? Like, how does that work? Yeah, I agree. Like, I'm a. Scheduling. Matter. I know. Exactly. I look, I got. here last night, eight at the Pink Elephant. I went to bed and I felt guilty. I thought, you know, should I be. doing more? Yesterday I really. thought that, you know, and I saw. my email kind of piling up, and I and I used you as. an excuse for I have to be fresh for. Tucker night.

That's what I did. So you're right. And then I think, okay, I'm. operating across an investment. portfolio and one company that. I run very intensely. How do you do that? Multiply by. seven and all of these other. I don't know how you do it. I really don't know, Tucker. I wish that there was an answer, but I also think it's not the right. thing. To answer in the sense that we're. all going to give some glib answer. and everybody's going to try to run.

and copy it. And I think what you. forget is. he is the product of. 20 years of preparation. He started with one company. Then he start two companies. Do you know what I mean? Like. So these are reps. Upon reps. Upon reps. Upon reps. Over decades. And I think it's important to keep. that in mind. Like that is a level. of skill. The key is demonstrating.

human peak level performance. It's easier to observe it in maybe. an athlete or something else. But that's what he's demonstrating. He is at the peak of. human intellect. That is the brain unencumbered. by all the other stuff that maybe. a lot of us get caught up in. Well, that's the other thing is he's. given up possessions effectively. You know, Great idea. Yeah, it is. I mean, it's not I've never. He tweeted out like like there's all. these things I've never I never tell.

you these things, but, like, there. are things that he. That's why I. follow him because part of. it is like. I get things from him in Twitter. that really profoundly affect my. life. So when I was going through all of. that turbulence in 2022, you know, he tweeted out, I think it was in. 21. I can't remember when it was, but he's like, I've just sold all my. homes and possessions. And I went back immediately. I thought of that is the one thing. that I was taught as a Buddhist when. I was raised Buddhist. You know, And despite all the stuff.

and all the anger that I had. And I never thought that Buddhism. was all that effective or useful for. me. I took one lesson. Detach yourself from the physical. world. Yes. And I saw it and I connected that. to myself and I said, I'm. the opposite of that. It's totally. True. I am totally, totally, totally attached to the physical. Perverse on my phone. I'm not a great Bible. scholar hardly, But I do. keep this verse because I think. it actually.

I mean, one, John three do not love this world. One of the things it offers you for. when you love the world, you don't. have the love of the father in you. For the world offers only a craving. for physical pleasure, a craving for. everything we see and a pride. in our achievements and possessions. Right? These are from the world. And the world is fading away along. with everything that people crave. There you go. Christian Not Buddhist, but same. idea and same idea. Same idea. And so he tweets.

that out. He sold all of his houses, you know. He sells all of his possessions. And I'm like, What am I doing? I'm buying more. Yeah. Like, I'm going to take. delivery of this thing and this. other thing. And now I have to hire. people to manage the things. And I'm like, What am I? What am I doing? Yes. So that helped me a lot. I've never told I never talk about. these things. So he is an incredible, I think, guidepost.

On how to clarify. your own intentions. If you're willing to see through. it all and clarify that message, that would be a thing that I think. he's an incredible exemplar. of. Find the thing that you care. about. And then just double and triple and. quadruple and quintuple down on That. is exactly right. That is exactly. So speaking of bookends, we. began this conversation with your. description of your I hate the word. journey, but it is a journey. to a much higher level of.

self-awareness and peace. and your ending. by describing. with admiration Elon's decision to. detach himself from the world even. as he engages in the things that he. really loves. Do you think that there is. a greater spiritual. awareness, a greater hunger in. Silicon Valley where it matters. because of the richest people in the. country than there. was, you said? You know, no one believes in God. Do you think that's changing? No, But I think we need to make it. more fashionable to be spiritual. You don't think it's changing? I don't think it's changing yet.

I think that a lot of this extreme. wealth was created. in people that are in their 30s, some in their 20s. Many of them are in their 40s. And I think that in over this next. 10 or 15 years, there's going to be. a crisis of identity. When they realized that, you know, they were playing dumb games. focused on superficial things beyond. the companies themselves. Right. And that there's a bigger. Purpose, right? There needs to be a loyalty to. country, Loyalty to the state.

Loyalty to the people around you. that you don't even know. Not to virtue signal, but to. actually just do the hard, practical. work. Part of that is in rooted, I think, in a spirituality that's. not there yet. But. I think that. It will become cool again. It. Sorry. It can become cool again. I believe in God. And the reason I believe in God, and. if I were to tell my friends in.

Silicon Valley. The way that I would in Sept. This idea would be. purely from a scientific lens. Which is. If you believe it is true, which I. think most people do. That there is a finite. moment in which the universe began. Explain not the process, but explain the moment. And you cannot.

And it is an endless rabbit hole. that if you spend your time. And again, when I was feeling very. empty, that's where. I started. And I, you know, I read. all about I read about Islam, I read. about Christianity, I read about. Judaism. I reread, you know, about Buddhism. And the only explanation. is got. And I think that that's a way. where people there can be. you know, they'll let their guard. down.

Because if you start a conversation. about physics and cosmology and. people are very open minded and. then you go, well, how did it. happen? How to teach, how to teach. equals zero happened. And what does t minus one look like? And their brains explode while their. brains truly explode. Because people that are very good. technologically in that way. are very good at getting to. explanations and they're. very good at kind of like breaking. things down. I know it's used a lot. now, but into first principles. And yes, there is no first principles, explanation throughout the world for. how the universe began.

There is none. Don't tell me about the Big Bang. Theory. It doesn't work. Don't tell me about general. relativity because it all breaks. We have to make these profound. assumptions in. math and physics to. make it all hang together, because you cannot tell me what t. equals. Zero. Right at that moment. How? Nobody can answer the House? No. And so then if you look at this. entire lived world around you.

I don't know. I just. I am filled. with this, like, immense gratitude. And then I think it must be God. And that gives me like, it gives me something. I didn't have that before. And so I take that I'm not trying to. push that on other people, but that. works for me. You know, makes me a better husband, makes me a better dad and makes me. a better friend. I do things now that I you. know, when when the fires. were happening,

you know, my friends, I just round. robin. I just kept calling them. every day to check in on them. It's a small thing, right? But these are values that I had lost. somewhere along the way where, you. know, just like, just calling. people caring about people's. One of my friends lost a home. I spent an entire afternoon, not an entire afternoon trading. again. And on overnight, I spent, like, an hour or so going through.

all my Google photos, clicking through and finding all the. photos of him, our friends, so. that we can make him an album now. because he lost everything. And yeah, you get the clothes, whatever, but you know the picture. albums, you know, they they mean a. lot. And I was happy. And I felt really like. a useful, good person at the office. Yes. I don't know. That's that's. I got that from believing in God. Right.

And my final question is, are you. hopeful, since we are. at a moment of real change. in the country, are you hopeful. for the future? Yeah. I think there is. Well, we were. We had a fever. And that fever has broken. And what has to. lie in its place. are examples. Of how all of these things that. we thought we were not allowed to do. when we do them actually work,

meaning we're actually just. going to focus on merit and get. incredible people. And it'll turn out that you'll get. your, you know, diversity wish, but you're not going to get it by. mandating it and forcing it down our. throats, right? We're just going to get the best. people and then the best people. are just going to go and kick ass. together. You know, we're going to get an. ecology. That we protect and. love because we want to be out there. hunting, fishing, camping, living. it, skiing it, whatever it is.

But we're going to get there because. we actually manage it and. take care of it and. clean up all of the, you. know, stuff that would otherwise. burn it to the ground. So we're going to test. All of this stuff. And I think it's going to work. And then the other thing we need to. do is we need to cut down. all of these things that are these. little ropes that are pulling us all. back. Meaning.

This is a stretch, but I'll use. myself in this example. I think I'm one of those 15,000. people that can go and ram and. jam for Team USA. I can. I've been you know, there. are moments I've been really Duncan. on people. You know, if this is a basketball. analogy, I want to do more of. that. I want Team USA to kick ass. I just want it to be a little bit. easier. And so I hope that we figure. out a way, instead of having 16,000. little regulations and people that.

want to lord over us, just. give us 10,000 and just trust us. that we're trying to do the right. thing. Exactly. And if we don't find trust but. verify, you know, and if we screw. up, fine. Hold us accountable. But just give us a chance so that we. can just make sure that USA. Team America, that idea. Is the singular organizing. function for America, not. everybody's own little pet project. Right? That's what that's so I think that's. possible. But I mean, time will tell. These next four years will be super.

critical to my. Thank you. Thanks for.