Catherine Herridge: Being Dragged Into Federal Court, the Trump v. Biden Debate, and Hunter’s Laptop

one of our sons asked me um Mom are you. going to go to jail and I wanted to tell. him that in this country where we say we. Val I could get a little choked up when. I think about it but you know in this. country where we say we value democracy. and we value a vigorous press that it. was impossible but I couldn't offer him. that Assurance I was shocked that they. fired you then when I reflected for a. moment I was not shocked at all from my. perspective super obvious they're taking. him out before the election because. you're reporting on hun Biden's laptop. 10 days ago is there was the debate I've.

known Biden for over 30 years and I. thought that's not the guy I know I mean. he's just completely different if I was. a conspiracy not I would think he was a. body double cuz it's that. [Music]. [Applause]. [Music]. [Applause]. [Music]. different so glad you're back here I'm.

so glad to see you you are not far away. it's work together we live near each. other it's all in many places um amazing. how are you enjoying your new life. pretty well it's uh good it's been an. adjustment I've had an energetic few. months I knew you would I knew you would. um okay so I just have to ask you. because you're I was in television a. long time also but you were in the the. news side of Television preparing. interviews and packages and every day.

for. decades and given your extensive. knowledge of that I'm just a little bit. confused by how the media people in our. business former business could look at. the last debate with Biden and Trump and. say I just can't believe that there's. something wrong with him that he's. neurologically compromised or ill or. scile or whatever that he's not. operating the way that he used to how. could this be news to people who've. interviewed him before well I think this. is a real opportunity to gather more. data and to take an investigative lens.

look at this issue of President Biden. and his decision to seek reelection. we've got some data points already we. have the debate that you've just. referenced that people were so surprised. his demeanor and we now have this ABC. interview and the full transcript I. think it's a moment where other media. organizations who've done interviews. with the president over the last couple. of years could release the full. transcripts from those interviews uh I. think it makes sense because we'd have. broader data points to.

assess was this a oneoff as the White. House says or were there indications of. decline earlier on were they obvious and. apparent or were they subtle and missed. and and if they were obvious why was it. that they seem to end up on The Cutting. Room floor um I think that having this. broader data set for an independent. review would really inform the public. discussion about the president's. decision to stay in the race and there's. a lot of data to look at I mean I've.

known Biden watched Biden been around. Biden a lot for over 30 years and I. remember my reaction in 2019 when he. decided to run um once again for. president for the fourth time I think uh. I thought that's not the guy I know I. mean he's just completely different and. then his sister told a friend of mine. actually were very upset because he's in. cognitive decline he's got some. neurological illness and we don't want. him to run for president so I. immediately said that on Fox News so you. reported that at the time absolutely.

yeah and then I showed the tape like. look at this guy and was attacked of. course and ignored so that was five. years ago um I wasn't shocked by his. performance of the debate especially but. then other journalists were they seem to. be were they pretending or like what I. don't understand how someone who did an. interview with him like two years ago. wouldn't have been aware that there was. something wrong well I think it's an. opportunity to provide this broader data. set so there can be this independent. review by the public what would that.

data look like well let's look at what. the transcripts show do they show. someone who is um you know very. consistent very focused uh very. deliberate in their answering of. questions or does it show someone who's. may be struggling to stay on track or is. lacking do we have um well media Outlets. who've conducted interviews with the. President should have those transcripts. I mean it's it's not standard to release. video outakes from an interview but you. could release the transcript and I say. that as some someone who released a.

transcript of my interview with. President Trump back in 2020 releasing a. transcript I think is about transparency. so you can have a broad overview of the. interview I think it makes sense because. there other headlines in the interview. that maybe you your news organization is. not going to look at per se you know. just sort of separately I think you have. a tremendous responsibility when you sit. down with the president of the United. States probably the ultimate newsmaker. to ask questions that are of interest to.

your news organization but also to. others right and then finally I think a. transcript uh allows you to stand behind. the edit that you either Post online or. that you broadcast right because then. the public can see the sections of the. interview that you you know condensed or. you made edits for clarification right. so I know that in um I haven't thought. about this enough but I know that in. 2015 or 2016 the New York Times had a. board sat down with Trump and they.

released a full apparently unedited. transcript which was chaotic his. speaking style tends to be a little. discursive um non that's a great word. discursive yeah it is. nonlinear um but you know that's that's. well known uh I think he's much better. on camera than he is you know in. transcripts but but whatever you think. of it that they put that out there I. don't remember in the last four years. any news organization that interviewed. Biden and there have been some releasing. a transcript of the interview do you I.

you know I I don't I can't recall but I. don't really I haven't gone back and. looked at all of them but but so like. what would be the so I guess what. bothers me is that everyone acts like. this was a shock it was not a shock to. me I have no special knowledge I'm I had. some special knowledge but I which I. revealed immediately but it was like. super obvious every time I saw him. there's something wrong with that guy. how could the journalist be shocked well. why don't they just release immediately. well they could that's that's what I.

think makes a lot of sense right now to. do that that's ultimately up to them but. I think it just goes to transparency I. think it goes to informing the public. discussion right now about the. president's uh Fitness for office and to. seek re-election and I think it's also. about standing behind your work right. like you decided to make edits in the. process um for for clarity for time what. you know whatever the issue is and so. you can really you can really stand. behind that I think that's that's. important but so again you were in this.

business for so long and me too and at a. time you know pre- interet pre-. streaming where you have a very small. chunk of time three five six minutes for. the long ones and then you you just. can't use the rest but now news. organizations just put the whole thing I. mean that's what we do I do this. interview is not edited in any way and. if you know we'll just let viewers. decide what they think of kathern harage. or me or whatever right.

but that you know but so what would be. the excuse that say NBC or CBS or ABC or. fox or anybody would have to not put the. full thing online now I mean I can't. speak to what their rationale would be I. just know in my case I felt it was. important to to release a transcript to. allow people to see the work and to also. I mean it's hard to look at your own. transcript because you you look at it. and you say oh that question could have. been more focused or I should have. followed up more or I missed that little. piece of news should have drilled down a.

little further or I interrupted there. when I really shouldn't have I mean it's. a really kind of warts and all process. that you're looking at but it's it's. about sort of the raw Integrity of the. interview you know when you make edits. in an interview um you do it for clarity. sometimes you do it because you have to. condense things because you only have a. certain amount of time on a. broadcast but it's a real fine line and. a balancing act and you don't want you. know seeking Clarity and brevity or. condensing it to cross the line into you.

know a cleanup on aisle 7 well that's. what it feels like though it does feel. like you know I want to be too judgy I. was telling you at breakfast this. morning I edited something out of an. interview once with somebody I can't. remember ever doing that before since. but and I would not do that now but. several years ago someone said something. so bizarre in an interview that I didn't. want to follow up on it because I don't. want to I me what the hell are you even. talking about and so I asked the editors. to take that out just because I didn't. think it was relevant into the. conversation it was.

weird um so whatever I did that I'll say. that I did that but if you're. interviewing someone and he seems like. bizarre through the whole interview and. you find yourself trying to cover that. up then maybe you're a liar do you think. well I think the I think the instinct. when you sit down with the president of. the United States is this is your. president you want them to look their. best I mean I I understand that but if. there were indicators and I don't know. there were but there were indicators.

that he was in decline or he was really. struggling to answer a series of. questions I mean that's news right I. mean that's a news headline well in the. opposite of news is of course you know. censorship and deception so if you're. hiding that then you're committing well. a moral crime but you're also committing. an offense against the profession that. you chose whose purpose is to inform the. public of what reality is right and. you're hiding things rather than. exposing them and that I mean that. that's pretty clear violation isn't it.

yeah I again I think it's an opportunity. to build the data set to better. understand what's happened over the last. couple of years and you know really. apply that investigative lens you know I. find it so hard to take off my like. investigative reporter but that's that's. sort of how I see it right now I'm. curious I'm genuinely curious to see. what those transcripts May reflect well. in 2016 um you know NBC went and back. into its archives and found an outtake.

of Donald Trump saying something vulgar. to Billy Bush the host uh about women. and grabbing them and all this stuff and. then they leaked it to David fold I. think I'm remembering this correctly. can't remember that exactly but it came. out public if I said if I've gotten that. wrong pardon me but they lead you to a. Washington Post reporter who had been a. college friend of an NBC executive and. then it became this huge thing that you. know almost derailed Trump's campaign. and that's why they did it of course so. there's press for showing us the outakes.

mhm do they have any excuse not to show. it to the Biden outakes I mean I I can't. really speak for them I'm sorry to sort. of be a little evasive about that I just. I just would advocate for it I think. that it's an issue of such import to the. country and it really informs the. discussion and the discourse surrounding. this this issue and and it goes to. accountability with the White House was. it really a bad night or was was there a. broader Trend that had been developing. yeah I mean I'm I feel totally qualified.

to pass judgment on that question over. to you well it's just I knew the guy and. that's not Biden like that's not the guy. I remember who and I mean this I always. I never agreed with him but I'm I'm a. shallow person so is he so I always kind. of liked him because he's throw you know. Irish guy throw his arm around you how. you doing buddy you know rub your chest. maybe sniff maybe he sniffed me I don't. care I like sniffing um and that's just. not the guy on TV at all like at all I I.

mean if I was a conspiracy not I would. think he was a body double because it's. that different so anyway are in your. long and varied career working in a. bunch of different big media the biggest. media outlets in the country um did you. see people's political or social agendas. shape news coverage a. lot I I the short answer is is is yes um. I think it's difficult for people to. step back and do what I like to say I do.

is which is balls and Strikes right uh. people have their own personal lens. through which they see stories uh but I. think you have to really Park that at. the front door when you go to work. because I think that's when you have the. most transparent credible authentic. journalism I agree with that do you feel. like the composition of newsrooms has. changed from when you started in the. business it feels like there was a. greater like actual diversity of life. experience back then 30 years ago hard. hard to say I started my career at ABC.

in London yeah and that was uh an. extremely rarified atmosphere in a lot. of ways these are very were very. experienced people a lot of The. Correspondents came out of Vietnam yes. you know very very deep experience and I. was very fortunate to learn in that. environment I haven't this is when. Jennings was still a force there. Jennings had just left London by the. time I had arrived and um I I wanted to. be a foreign correspondent you know when. you're that young you have ideas like I. just like it looks so exciting to me.

totally and some of the correspondents. in the office really took me under their. wing and taught me how to write a story. by looking at the interviews the. strongest elements of the interview the. sound bites and then they trained me to. really sit down and look at the video. and identify the strongest video and. then the natural sound which really can. be such an important technique n Sound. that's right when you're when you're. editing a a piece together because it's. really like this Mosaic the strongest. sound the best video and the natural. sound so this was a. rarified environment have I been in a.

newsroom like that since I I don't think. so what was the difference was smarter. more. serious I I just felt with with that. cohort of reporters they just it was all. about accountability journalism I mean. to me if that's part of my DNA it's it's. what does that mean accountability. accountability journalism is when you're. you're curious and you seek the facts. and then you try and figure out where. the bug stops right and it's not a. question of well it's this party or that.

party it's whatever entity is. responsible right and accountability. journalism is you know like they say. speaking truth to power on both sides of. of the aisle to power is the key though. I mean accountability doesn't. necessarily mean you know hassling poor. rural whites with diabetes you know the. weakest most despised people in our. society it means like you know asking. questions about Black Rock and the. National Security Council and the people. who actually have all the power it it. felt to me 30 years ago like that was.

implied like everyone sort of thought. that your job was to hold the powerful. accountable not the weakest I still feel. that way I do too yeah I do too we have. that in common I do too um did you see. that change. um boy you know I I used to say to. people that um you know technology was. supposed to really improve our ability. to do journalism but I sometimes felt. that the Technology's never been better. but the reporting's never been worse and. and I I don't know why that is except is.

there a connection never I think. sometimes what we're missing is that. boots on the ground personto person. contact in reporting um years ago when I. did a journalism degree at Colombia I. had this professor dick blood that was. his name dick dick blood and he was sort. of a legend in New York City newsrooms. and he used to always say to me detail. matters and good reporting you know if. you go to a crime scene you want to. count how many bullet holes there are in. the Wind. so I think there's that kind of on the.

ground real traditional investigative. feel sometimes that's that's missing in. that person to person contact yes well I. agree with that I remember going to a. murder scene and looking down there was. blood all over my. shoes I didn't put that in the story but. I remember thinking wow you know that. actually is Sho leather reporting you. taking a real sense of things when you. can smell them you know when you think. back to major events I I was in New York. on 911 and um. we were down near um the World Trade.

Center in the days right afterwards and. I I saw someone who was collecting um. Ash off the top of the cars and at that. point we'd realized that all of the. abandoned cars in downtown Manhattan. belonged to people who had been killed. in the towers and I stopped this woman. and I asked her what she was doing and. she said my sister was wasn't uh the. windows on the world at the top of the. World Trade Center she didn't survive. and I want to have something to bury for. my family so the ash is what I'm.

collecting and that was the moment that. I realized that so much of the ash that. was spread around the city was really. people people and the buildings and that. kind of tactile feel to the reporting is. the kind of reporting that really. impacts people and stays and stays with. them and I don't know whether it's the. technology or whether it's sort of the. immediacy of all these deadlines but the. ability to do that um is much harder now. than it used to be no and I think that's.

really smart and Technology gives you. the illusion that all the information is. on Google or a text away when actually. talking to people makes all the. difference huh so one phenomenon that I. noticed or that I actually didn't notice. until I was in middle age but came. you're in middle age I that's what they. claim okay actually I'm way past middle. I'm not going to live to I'm not going. to ma 110 so I I guess I'm in late life. now um.

but there are beat reporters people. who've you know covering federal. agencies particularly in Washington who. become captive to those agencies to. their sources you know not in a literal. sense are not held in the basement and. chains but they're I mean they are sort. of Puppets of the people they cover like. I really noticed that I'm thinking of. one specific person I'm not going to. name but I would just say a female. National Security reporter in Washington. who and I would watch these you know.

stories come out i' be like that well. that that's a lie you know it's a lie. and you're doing it on behalf of the. people who feed you these lies have you. seen a lot of that I think that the. danger is that people become sort of so. friendly with the the Press offices that. work in in these big um agencies that. they they find it hard over time to. really challenge them that was never a. problem for you I noticed um should say. for we work together people who don't. know Catherine harage one thing I've.

always loved about you I don't even know. who you vote for and I mean that but I. did notice that a lot of the flaks. didn't like you so I always thought that. was a good sign you want to you want to. have the ability to really operate. outside the ring I used I used to say. that um one of the advantages to doing. reporting as long as I've done it is. that you start to build a network of. contacts so that that's really where. your your stories are coming from right. and that the public affairs office and a. major government entity is really the. last stop for you right that's where. you're trying to get some response and I. really believe in in giving these.

offices ample time to respond I did a. story recently where we engaged with uh. the department of the Army and the. National Guard for two weeks I mean we. really gave them time because we wanted. to understand their position and what. had happened in a particular case um but. sometimes the danger is that people. become too close that's why I think it. makes sense in in some cases to really. rotate reporters so that you don't spend. so long on a certain beat that you start. to lose your contact sort of out of that. Circle well that's exactly or you become.

a tool of of Lies which some uh Pentagon. reporters have become I would say one in. particular but what's the mechanism for. for pulling that person back and putting. that person on another beat or for. fixing that I can I listen I've never. been a manager but it just seems to me. um when I worked overseas I saw this. with some of the British news. organizations um that they would rotate. people into the United States for a few. years and they would take them back to. Britain so they would be there through.

an election cycle let's say they'd be. there long enough to build contacts and. then they would go back overseas and. someone else would come in so you'd have. a fresh set of eyes and ears yes on and. I think that that makes a lot of sense. it can be a little frustrating for a. reporter because on some beats it takes. you a decade or more to really start to. build the contacts and the reputation. with individuals um but I do think that. you have to check yourself you have to. ask yourself um am I really checking it. out out to the degree um that I need to.

be as Professor blood would say just. because your mother says she loves you. doesn't mean you should not check check. it out right that's right I I learned. that firsthand. yeah that's a that's a different. conversation sorry totally kidding. that's so dark but it is funny so if. you're paying any attention at all to. what's going on in the world you. probably asked yourself what would I do. not just for myself but for the people. who love me and I'm responsible for my. family what would I do if things really. went South either for a short period or. a longer period if there was an. emergency how would I respond of course.

you need food and water you need. security some way to protect yourself. and your loved ones you probably have. taken care of all of that but one. problem you may not have addressed is. what do you do about medicine if there's. a medical problem when there's not. readily available medical care what do. you do for your family and that's a. tough question to answer actually but. now there is an answer and it comes from. Jace medical it is a personalized. emergency supply of medicines you might. need antibiotics other life-saving. medicines to treat a long list of.

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essential I have it you should too use. the promo code Tucker at checkout for an. extra discount but don't wait until you. need it it's worth doing now jal.com I I. wonder since you spent you know you're. ABC Fox News. CBS um you just left CBS pretty recently. this spring maybe this feary February. okay. um like you spent your whole life at and. I have to at these huge news. organizations at and toward the end you. know independent journalism digital.

journalism is on the rise like what was. the view of that from inside the big. news organization well I think within uh. big corporate media uh there was still a. sense that they were sort of the the. final word on things really yeah or you. know sort of maybe it's not the best. phrase Gatekeepers um for information. but after I lost my job in February I. took a couple of months to really. educate myself about the marketplace and. I was surprised at how much the media.

landscape had really changed just it's. that crazy that you would know that I. didn't know it either I mean I'm not. criticizing you I mean I but isn't it. weird that you can work I'm in the news. business but you really don't know what. the news business is I think you're very. focused on what you're doing dayto day. and you're not sort of looking at the. bigger picture but I took some time to. to try and understand how the landscape. had really shifted and I was surprised. at how much it had really evolved in the. four and a half years that I was at CBS. News and I say this is someone who spent.

my entire career working with big. corporations and I was and I was. grateful for those jobs I don't want to. minimize that but what I see now is that. those entities are really shrinking and. Contracting and the audiences are. getting older and the real explosive. growth is with uh smaller independent. operations and smaller independent. newsrooms why do you think that is. though I mean if you're someone like. Matt Tai who also worked you know for.

Rolling Stone you know big worked for a. big company then went out completely on. his own he has a substack and then he. creates his own news organization but. it's just one guy and if you look at his. growth and revenue it's so much higher. than like people with the backing of. these huge corporations like why how. could Matt. taibi get a bigger audience than nor. O'Donnell or whoever hosting these show. I don't even know who's hosting them.

anymore but like how did that happen I. think I think the the public is really. hungry for credible reliable. information I don't think it's more uh. complicated I agree with you than that. and I'm not here to sort of take shots. at my old employers but I I just that's. what I came away from but what's so. interesting is like if you have like if. you're you know General Motors and you. have a s sort of Monopoly on your on. your area and all of a sudden some guy. starts building cars in his garage and.

like they're more popular than you it's. kind of an indictment of you isn't. it I think the speed at which things. have have evolved has really surprised. people I mean when you start to look at. the N I think we're at at an inflection. point you start to look at um the. numbers you know for example you did. some interviews that related to the. Biden investigation and these were you. know 90 million views or you sometimes. higher but these are these are big. numbers. and when you compare that to what an.

evening news broadcast is you know 4. million 7 million 6. million I mean you're just reaching a. broader larger Global audience yes and I. would argue and I don't have the benefit. of all the data but it's also a younger. audience and it may be an audience. that's really engaged in gathering. information because if they're on these. platforms they're checking multiple. times a day for for headlines for new. video for new content these are real um.

voracious consumers of. information I think that's all. absolutely true but it leaves un answer. the question how did this happen how did. you know penniless upstarts beat you. know the entrenched monopolies and I. just know in my own life the only. moments of growth that have ever. occurred for me the pivot Points of my. life have all been those moments where. I'm like wow I really suck like I really. made bad no for real you know I drink. too much or I got caught lying or I'm. just kind of a rotten person I have to.

change MH and I got fired once for. basically I was just lazy and not taking. my job seriously I stopped being lazy I. started taking my job you know it's. really important to realize how much you. suck well there's a forcing function yes. that's do you see long-winded question. do you see that process playing out at. in corporate media I can I can speak for. myself right now I if uh you know I lost. my job in February um you just lost it. like you forgot where you put it no I I. I didn't actually lose my.

job D I had a few drinks and lost my job. along with my car keys myself looking. around for it um you know my job was. terminated that was a very public thing. I'm not making I I was fired to um I. lost my company health insurance that. was a very big deal for us because we. have a son who's a transplant patient. he's a chronic medical condition and. then I had my record seized by my. employer which was a red line I thought. should never have been crossed and then.

I was held in contemp of court so. February was a very very big month for. me um but I made a decision once I'd. educated myself about the marketplace. which I would never have done if there. hadn't been that forcing function that. for now I was going to go independent. I'd had some opportunities from generous. opportunities to sort of go back to a. large corporate media outlet but I. decided that I would go independent and. I would tell the stories that I couldn't. tell before. because I was at a point in my career.

where I had built up a network of. contacts and I felt now is the time if. it's not now then then when amen I I. couldn't agree more so since you um. brought up I'm and I'm sorry I didn't. mean to make fun I know it's it is. traumatic to have your life turned. upside down in a day um I just think. you're going to be so much happier uh. but let's talk about that like so you. get hired you were at Fox News where we. work together and I really enjoyed that. thank you I enjoyed it too I thought you.

were really honest you're very well. behaved. honest I felt like I was a good. moderating influence when we sat down I. loved it but then you left and went um. to CBS News which is a you know huge. Channel with a story past in decline in. Decline this is my assessment because. they weren't doing what they're supposed. to do which is like tell you interesting. stuff that you didn't know and be honest. and brave you are honest and brave and. you specialize in interesting stories so. I thought wow this is so this is great I.

mean CBS is a little smarter than I. thought they were and you did break a. bunch of stories and you were the most. memorable person on their air the one. doing the fiercest journalism this is. again my assessment and then they have. cutbacks because their business is. failing and they fire you I'm like wait. what did you see that coming uh I I. didn't see it coming yeah he didn't um. it wasn't a performance issue I I'm so. proud of the work that we did there uh. especially the work with veterans I mean.

we really helped be a catalyst for. legislation that impacted a million. veterans and civilians for for the. better yes I mean I feel very proud of. that um but uh that's that's their. choice uh whether I work there or not. it's not my company course but the the. seizing of the records was uh a terrible. red. line if you don't mind I know this has. been written about but I just want to. get a record on video of what exactly. happened so how how did this unfold like.

what kind of warning did you have and. what happened well I testified to. Congress uh about this as well um I was. uh laid laid off on a zoom call I was. told my job was terminated and um. explain why uh no not Beyond saying that. they were they were making cuts and um I. was uh locked out of my email and locked. out of the office and um a couple of. days later a courier came to the house. with just a couple of boxes of clothing.

and um some books and you know a few. Awards and I said where are all my. investigative files and my research and. my reporting notes and she said you're. just going to have to talk to human. resources about that and I got the union. involved sag Afra I'm not going to go. into all the details but there was a. very vigorous back and forth about. returning the records um what were the. records like interview notes and um you. know what I would say is that there were. interview notes uh research reporter.

notes contact information and um when I. had left other major organizations ABC. and fox um it was completely different. um there was an understanding that you. would go through your materials you. would take with you what was essentially. your reporting materials and you would. leave what belonged to the company and I. knew from people at CBS that that what. was happening to me was not standard uh. one person in particular said that uh. when their office was cleaned out they. put in dirty coffee cups and posted. notes I mean everything came back to.

them yeah um I think if the union hadn't. gotten involved and there hadn't been a. public outcry I would never have seen. those records again the union really. stood up for journalism and I I. testified that when the network of. Walter kronite seizes your reporting. information including confidential. Source information it's an attack on. investigative journalism and I heard. from contacts that I've worked with over. the years um who helped me to expose.

government wrongdoing and Corruption. that they were very concerned that they. would be identified so you I mean again. I I doubt you will agree with this I. don't know what you really think but. from my perspective super obvious. they're taking you out before the. election because you're reporting on. Hunter Biden's laptop and that was. that's my take on it I was shocked that. they fired you then when I reflected for. a moment I was not shocked at all you. know they took out the Drudge Report. before the 2020 election they you know. whatever lots of people who are in the.

way have been taken out before election. so. um what you know do you think there were. do you think your notes were um did they. go through your notes during the time. they had them I really can't answer that. because you don't know or I just don't. want to really answer that that right. now no of course I think I think people. can draw their own conclusions um tell. us about the reporting you did publicly. they said they haven't but um anyway. I'll leave it that yeah we be kind of. tempting to go through your interview.

notes I'd like. to I mean why would they seize your. personal report uh reporting product you. know it was a very sad episode for me. just professionally and personally. because I thought that we had done some. really tremendous work um on not only uh. the the laptop um but also um the IRS. whistleblowers I mean this was a major. story for CBS News I. did an interview along with one of my.

colleagues and I think that really. changed the public discussion of the. hunb investigation and this question of. whether there was a double standard. applied in that that case if you would. for those of us who missed the CBS. report tell us what the the the tax. investigation into Hunter Biden so. Hunter Biden in the end got convicted of. completely ridiculous gun this is my. personal editorializing but ridiculous. gun charge like who cares actually um. but there are other potential crimes. tell us about the tax I would think.

about the hunter Biden case as having. two buckets the first was the gun. charges and then the second is this tax. case I've always felt the tax case is a. much more serious case and has the. greatest legal Jeopardy for himself and. members of his of his family um it I'd. encourage people just to look at the. indictment which is in California and. it's uh my memory is that it's on the. first page or the second page they refer. to him as a. lobbyist and that to me as an indicator. that the special council is exploring.

whether there were violations of phah. which is the foreign agents registration. act and that in simple terms means that. if you're working on behalf of the. interests of a foreign government you. need to be clear with the US government. have to register that's right um and. seated throughout that document is. information about his businesses with. Ukraine with China with with others so. to me it leaves the door open to a. superseding indictment I'm not saying. that's going to happen but certainly to. me was an indicator or a flag that that.

was. possible so um but the tax charges. specifically what what do they amount to. um these are felony tax charges um. they're pretty significant and a tax. case the challenge for any defendant is. that these are paper-driven cases. they're not really witness driven cases. um what did you attest to when you. signed the forms um what did your. accountant attest to and um I think one. of the important elements in the case is. how much of this happened after he was.

sober right because there's a whole. window with the taxes where he's really. uh a heavy user and drug addict but as. he told the Delaware Court last year. when the plea deal fell apart there was. a period of time where he became clean. so how many of these alleged bad acts. happened during that period versus when. he was an. addict and that's relevant because sober. people have no excuse well it just goes. to your state of mind right I think I. think a jury wen't mistakes yeah I think.

I think any jury wants to understand. someone who's come through addiction um. they they want to understand that. they're they're sympathetic to that. because that's like a daily challenge. for individuals and I think that knowing. when they were able to get themselves. clean I think helps inform um their view. on the evidence and what action I think. that's I think that's right so what's. the status of those charges uh uh last I. haven't been following it as closely um. but in the fall I think that goes to. trial was just kind of I mean this is.

relevant now and I don't think it's. often referred to in D reporting on what. Joe Biden is going through right now so. 10 days ago is there was the debate. people were shocked Democratic donors. appear shocked some I talked to one of. them who really was shocked didn't know. that Biden was impaired and there was a. push pretty sizable push from members of. Congress for Biden to step aside and. he's now issued this letter which seems. to me was written by his son Hunter. saying I'm staying in and Hunter it's.

been reported widely is in the white. house he's his father's Chief adviser on. this and you're sort of wondering like. what is this and you're saying well. Hunter Biden is facing this. trial yeah it's probably better to have. your dad be president when when you're. to Tri not I really can't no but I'm. just saying you don't have to connect. those dots um but that's not an. irrelevant fact that he's facing these. charges it's not it's not it's not an. irrelevant fact and I I I I guess what.

has my attention is that over the last. couple of years there has been such an. effort by the White House to distance. the president from his son especially in. terms of business Affairs yes right but. now they're they're really sort of join. jointed at the hip apparently I don't. know that independently but you know. they're very it just um did their. relationship really suddenly change in. that moment or not or maybe it's always. been like that I don't know the answer. to that most of us well actually all of. us go through our daily lives using all. sorts of quote free.

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take all your information they Hoover up. your data private personal data and sell. it to data Brokers and the. government and all of those people who. are not your friends are very interested. in manipulating you and your personal. political and financial decisions it's. scary as hell and it's happening out in. the open without anybody saying anything. about it this is a huge problem and. we've been talking about this problem to. our friend Eric for a year someone needs. to fix this and he and his Partners have.

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highly recommended well my impression. knowing Hunter Biden pretty well as I. did um I think he was always close to. his dad he revered his father I know and. there's a difference um to being close. and then being in business with somebody. of course there is I rever my dad not in. business with him um but I do think it's. I know for a fact that he was always. close to his dad always loved his. dad um it's one of the things I liked. about him actually uh. but you know it's all these are very. different circumstances from when I knew.

him and so he's facing and you know. these are charges that carry potentially. jail time correct yes the gun and the. taxes the gun right um interesting so. why do you think there's been that seems. like kind of a big deal doesn't seem. like there's been a you reported on it. but there hasn't been a ton of reporting. on that. um. um I guess what I would say is that um I. felt very proud at CBS News of the of.

the of the investigative journalism that. we did whether it was with the. whistleblowers or whether it was um with. a laptop and I went to a lot of effort. to get um data from that laptop which. had a very clean chain of custody yeah. uh that um I learned through my. reporting was uh mirrored what was given. to the FBI and I felt that was important. to understand the Integrity of of the. data um well given that that lap top had. been described by a bunch of retired.

Intel officials as Russian as fake right. MH and we went to a lot of effort to um. have it um forensically analyzed by a. very reputable group and a group that. was um with sort of no political. attachments that was outside the Beltway. uh a group out um out west and really a. standup group great group they did a. terrific forensic scrub of it and and. They concluded that there nothing had. been altered or changed on the of the.

copy of the data that we had um other. journalists uh got their data through. third parties and I think that that. probably contaminated the data in some. way but I felt extremely confident um. about our data I um I guess what I would. we did that story in uh late. 2022 and you know my reputation is for. moving quickly and efficiently through. complex investigations. um the idea that it took me two years to. authenticate that data is.

just not. believable what does that mean uh I I. think that. um and I I want to be respectful of my. former employer I think that there was. an opportunity to lead earlier on that. story I guess I would leave leave it at. that well I authenticated it day one. because there was emails from me on. there and no one knew I knew Hunter. Biden so I knew it was real because no. one would ever do you know no one would. ever fix had all your typos wello like I.

I had lived near hun bite and that's how. I knew him and. so um just live in Washington as you did. so it's not that weird if you live in. Washington it's like a small City. everyone knows everybody else but I knew. that nobody knew that I knew Hunter. Biden so like if you're assembling a. fake laptop you wouldn't put emails from. like the Fox News host on there because. that's too weird so I instantly knew it. was. real and. um I'm just a little bit surprised. that it took you that long so you're. saying it didn't actually take you that.

long there were roadblocks I just think. my reputation is for moving quickly and. effici through complex investigation um. yeah did so but it took two two years. for that story to make air and I'm glad. it did yeah because I think it really. changed the conversation for sure um. interesting did you feel could you feel. it at the company that like people. didn't want you to do this. you know I I've always tried to be.

respectful of my foral employers and I. testified to Congress that I mean there. was tension over uh the Biden. reporting yeah especially when I sort of. turned my lens on to President Biden oh. didn't like that. huh I'm sorry it's it's I'll say it you. don't need to I'm not even speaking of. CBS specifically so corrupt I mean it's. just absolutely ridiculous because it's. not a reporter job to cover for a. politician right I'm just checking well.

I you know I I like to think that I call. balls and Strikes people like to talk. about the hunter Biden reporting at CBS. but I was also the reporter who obtained. the audio tape of President Trump. apparently bragging about these Iran. documents at maral Lago right but they. don't talk about that well I you should. I mean you should but I'm just saying. you know I'm kind of equal opportunity. when it comes to the accountability were. there any well I know that which is I'm. what I'm saying is that your supervisors. whoever they were and you're being very.

polite I would say um but they should. have the same fair-minded. attitude and you know allow reporters to. tell the truth period no matter who it's. about I think don't you I think that's. what the Public's looking. for and because they're not delivering. that Matt taibe is more influential than. CBS News that's all I'm saying like it. finds its own level people need credible. information they need to there's such a. hunger for it yes that's that's uh we. just uh did our first investigation uh.

on X and we looked at uh the defense. department specifically the Army and the. National Guard's failure to look after a. soldier who had a debilitating heart. condition that they blamed on uh the. covid vaccine this was someone who had. no heart issues before they entered the. military and we did an independent. review of their medical records and the. symptoms appeared almost immediately. after um being vaccinated and they're. really Amplified after after they had. that that second dose and um can you.

fill out some of the details like how. old is this she's 24 years old her name. is Carolina stansik she was um a a. soldier in the Army National Guard and. she was on active duty orders when she. was diagnosed with this debilitating. heart condition called pots which is. postural orthostatic tacac cardia. syndrome and what it means is that. there's kind of a disconnect between the. way your heart is working and your blood. pressure people can have blackouts puts. a lot of stress on your heart and she's.

had multiple heart attacks uh she's had. a mini stroke at 24 and we sat down with. her uh just days before she got a. pacemaker at 24 and this story um. appealed to me for months because she. had paperwork um we learned uh from the. Army um or rather there was Army. paperwork that um showed that they. conceded over time that um her heart. condition was in the line of duty and it. it was especially important and uh when.

we launched that. investigation I felt along with the team. that X was probably the only platform. that we could have such an authentic and. candid and open conversation about the. failure of the US military to take care. of its people but I just find that crazy. I mean I have a 24-year- old daughter so. it makes me emotional thinking about it. but a 25-year-old child this girl has a. peacemaker because she followed orders. so or it seem that's what she says and. that's certainly a credible claim given.

that's happened to a lot of people and. everyone knows that so why would. X which is not was not designed as. really a news platform like why are they. the last outlet that would run something. like that crazy to me I I didn't really. fully appreciate this until I started. working independently but we felt that X. was the platform where we could really. have an Open Candid conversation and we. could put out the records so people. could analyze them and fact check them. for themselves to understand the issue.

and make up their own minds as to. whether the Army and the National Guard. had really let this Soldier down right. we just put it all out there for. scrutiny and I say this um because what. I heard anecdotally from from colleagues. is that other. platforms um that story even though it. was a story about a failure to take care. of uh of of soldiers um could be de. Amplified on other platforms. or or or labeled something that but why. is NBC News leading with that I mean I.

thought I can't I can't really answer. for those Outlets but we both know they. would never run that I don't know if. they would never run it but I I just. felt that it was a completely legitimate. story of course it was um it was a story. uh about accountability a failure of the. government to look out for its own. people um and then in her particular. case it took her 19 months to get the. acknowledgement that this heart. condition was in the line of duty and. what that means is that she's eligible.

for different benefits and and medical. care but because there was such a delay. to get medical care because there was. such a delay to get mental health care. she told us at one point she considered. suicide 24 and um anyway I we heard from. other people who believe that they have. similar circumstances and I and I say. this with some humility that's what good. journalist does well obviously there's. no other point to it like what's the.

point I mean either you're carrying. water for people who are paying you to. do that which is just the definition of. dishonesty or you're doing what you're. supposed to do the reason we have first. man Protections in the first place which. is tell the public what their government. is doing with the powerful people who. control their lives are doing I mean I. don't and and and to the credit of the. Army and the National Guard we engaged. with them over two weeks I felt it was. very important to give them a lot of. time to respond respond to the charges. cuz they were such serious charges and.

they engaged with us um which I thought. was a very positive thing because I'm. now working independently right I'm not. working for a big Corporation and it it. said to me that they understood sort of. the power and the impact of what we were. doing you know three million people. watch that video or touch that video. it's a lot of people and you know Global. and young people and probably a lot of. service members as well so I I want to. give them credit for that they they. engaged they tried to answer our. questions folks who are watching this.

can decide whether their answers you. know pass the sniff test but that's. that's part of what you're do you've got. a very generous spirit and you're trying. to give people credit where it's due I. will say I've always thought just. watching you from a distance that one of. your. main kind of advantages over everybody. else is you cared less. about you know what the prevailing view. of the group was and it didn't bother. you to go in a direction that you felt.

was the right direction or to tell the. truth even when it was. unpopular why it does it feel to you. like a lot of journalists are you know. it's a big deal to them what their. colleagues think back in The Newsroom do. you know what I'm. saying I guess it it doesn't matter to. me as much I can. tell I I I I I don't really have any. other sort of um explanation for it I. I would say without getting sort of too. personal because I'd like to keep the.

conversation professional well it's just. interesting it's like why you I just I I. just uh if there's anything I hate more. it's Injustice I hate Injustice when I. when I see it and um I just think. throughout my career I've taken on a lot. of stories which are about the little. guy well they should be fighting the big. bureaucracy or the person who says wait. a minute it's not you know it's not. adding up and and um so it's that's. really what drives me in the end is that.

sense of there's Injustice and there's. an opportunity in the case of this. 24-year-old I think that we've seen some. incremental uh improvements to her. situation I hope that her records issue. with the military is resolved quickly. because at 24 she's really given up. everything I mean she's she's given up. her health to serve this country she and. a lot of other people the story was not. a moratorium on the VAC Seine. Story the alleged failure of military to.

take care of people because that's. that's the sacred pledge that you leave. no one behind well I agree but I would. say that pledge applies to the entire. country the government exists only to. serve us that's its only it's its only. job we pay for it we own it this is a. democracy and um so if they're hurting. people and don't care and that's the the. gravest crime they could commit that's. my personal opinion I thought that was. everybody's opinion but apparently it's. not apparently not yeah apparently not.

right I'm not in the military and I'm. never going to be in the military but. I'm an American citizen and if my. government hurts me I think it's just. obvious that they should apologize and. try to make it better but um but they. don't so you're saying we've had such a. similar experience you like you're in. this little world which you think is a. much bigger world than it actually is. I'll speak for myself and then you get. ejected from that world and you're like. shocked but then you thank God for it.

because wow there's fresh air and. sunlight and then you look around and. you realize that all these. smaller organizations or individuals are. having like a huge effect and you didn't. even know that it's amazing but one and. I just love the whole thing but one of. the problems. is it's pretty easy it's pretty hard to. take down like a big news organization. because they have like a well staffed. legal department pretty easy to take. down an individual lawfare. MH I mean.

right this is a concern yeah one of the. things I I'd like to talk about is this. the Press act the Press Act is a piece. of legislation uh that's in the Senate. right now it passed. unanimously um in the house and the. Press Act is a federal Shield law for. reporters it would allow them to predu. confidential sources um and there are. just very few exceptions what I would. call Common sense exceptions for. imminent violence or threats to critical.

infrastructure. and I've said that I think the. protection of confidential sources is. the hill to die on because if if you. don't have that ability a credible. assurance that you're going to protect. your Source uh as an investigative. reporter your toolbox is empty I mean. you really have nothing to offer and you. know and others I can't say a lot about. it but I'm in the middle of a major. case where I was asked to disclose. confidential Source information uh I.

refused to disclose who asked you to. disclose it um it was it's part of a. privacy act lawsuit um I'm a witness in. the case and um so this is a private. entity there's a a plaintiff uh they're. suing uh government agencies including. the FBI and they want to understand uh. the source of sources for my reporting a. series of stories uh National Security. stories in 2017. and um this is all public so just remind. me who's suing um a Chinese American uh.

scientist and she's suing the FBI the. justice department defense department I. believe Homeland Security is as well. they're like four or five different. agencies and um the the plaintiff wants. to understand how I got information uh. about her and her so you're not being. sued no I'm not I'm just a witness. that's just the same thing happened to. me they grabbed all my text messages uh. I was not named in the suit but a judge. said I had to divulge so they're trying. to violate among other things your.

privacy but also the that they're trying. to violate the the protection that we. all assumed was real um that. confidential sources. had the I I don't want to I want to be. very careful because I don't want to. litigate you know the case the case here. um but the issue is uh the the forc. disclosure of confidential Source. information and so that means you as a. reporter order to talk to people they. tell you stuff on the condition of. anonymity I'm not going to tell anybody.

that we spoke but tell me the truth. about what you know correct right and. this is something that journalists deal. with constantly if you don't have that. credible pledge of confidentiality as an. investigative journalist you really have. very little to offer yeah I've done it. like three times today already wow no. but that's just that's your life you. know right you're talking to people. constantly about stuff and but everyone. knows you're not going to rat them out. right the question it's in the appell at.

court right now in Washington and uh the. question is whe When the need for that. information overrides the First. Amendment and um the reporter's uh. privilege um I haven't lost a night's. sleep over my decision to protect. confidential sources but that doesn't. mean I don't feel a tremendous burden. and responsibility with this Cas tell us. about the burden well it's it's so much. bigger than just my individual casee. it's it's not just about me it's not. about just a single series of stories.

it's not about one media Outlet whatever. the course decide and and I have respect. for the legal process and what's. unfolding whatever they decide is going. to impact every working journalist in. the United States well and the public. yeah and the public and for the next. generation and that's why you know the. Press Act is an opportunity to really. strengthen press freedom and press. protections at a time as as you. mentioned that there's this explosion of. smaller and independent outlets and they.

can't you know they can't withstand the. legal and financial pressure of tell us. about the financial pressures like what. does that look like well right well. right now um I'm U facing fines of $800. a day for refusing to disclose that has. been uh put on hold and I'm grateful for. that pending the appeal um in in the. court in Washington um but then there's. the cost of litigating a case like this. um this is not an inexpensive thing to.

do I've been fortunate to have uh Fox. News which has mounted a very vigorous. defense an excellent legal team because. you worked at Fox at the time I that's. correct I worked at Fox at the time um. but not every Outlet can afford to do. that and so having the Press act would. prevent them from sort of being sort of. Legally strangled in the future and and. losing that pledge of confidentiality. and if if you believe as I do that an. informed electorate and an.

Engaged um reporting Corp is fundamental. to democracy you're going to want to see. this opportunity seized and and really. realized well if you think the public. has a right to know what its government. is doing which is kind of the bottom. line as far as I'm concerned and I think. the public does public has no idea what. the government's doing I I can say that. factually no clue they should know and. um then you need to make sure the me Ms. exist for them to get that information. correct I mean yeah I I testified to.

Congress about this earlier in the year. and. um I just feel like we're at an. inflection point there's just this. incredible shift in the media landscape. there's this sort of exciting diverse. group of new voices doing some really. tremendous journalism so this is the. moment to me where you want to offer. these kinds of protections for. confidential Source protection at the. federal level so that it's consistent. with what exists in almost every state. in this country and I think it's an.

acknowledgement of the role that. journalism should play and can play in. the Democratic process yeah it can't you. know if you make it too expensive to. tell the truth nobody. will and that's kind of where we are I. mean you can take people out with. lawsuits if you're some well-funded. political group particularly on the left. they've been doing this at scale you. just you you shut people up by. bankrupting them well one of our kids uh.

as we were really um wrestling with the. subpoena and how that was all going to. unfold and there's a certain amount of. um you know you can't keep your kids off. their phones right so they're seeing. sort of some of this play out and one of. our sons asked me um Mom are you going. to go to jail are we going to lose the. house are we going to lose everything. that you've worked for and I wanted to. tell him that in this country where we. say we Val I could get a little choked. up when I think about it but you know in.

this country where we say we value. democracy and we value a vigorous press. that it was impossible but I couldn't. offer him that assurance and um the best. part of the story is how he ended it he. said Mom do what it takes I've got your. back and I thought if a teenager. understands the importance of this. pledge of confidentiality and. understands the importance that. journalism plays in a democracy then. certainly Congress can get this.

legislation passed right now it's in the. Senate um Chuck Schumer has said he. would like to get it to the president's. desk um this year and I hope there'll be. movement before the August recess social. media are great they're important. they're the main way we communicate with. each other they're where politics happen. in this country but one of the problems. with social media is that the rules. change the people in charge don't want. you to say something they don't tell you. that and the next thing you know you're. without a platform well now you have an.

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doing so who's against. it you know um I think there are some. Republican members who have. hesitations uh about it um what I would. say is that because they hate the media. I I I can't speak to their their well I. hate the media because they're Liars so. you want to protect the truth tellers I. guess that would be my view of it I mean. I think the important thing to. understand is that this is legislation. that would do so much to protect these. smaller and independent out outlets.

where you have this diversity of voices. period on both sides of the aisle left. and on the right and it's a moment when. we can codify those protections and it's. a moment when we can say you know we. talk about the importance of the First. Amendment we talk about the importance. of press freedom and now we can actually. really do something concrete to protect. it yeah I think you're right and I I do. think the one thing that we can do is. just not obey I mean I was told to give. up my text messages I never should have.

done that I knew I shouldn't have done. it I should have just they're going to. through you one jail go ahead you know. come to my house try it and I never. should have done that and in a weak. moment I did it I I mean clearly you're. facing this right now I caved you. haven't bless you but I mean what are. you going to do if they if they command. you to do. it I mean I just have to cross that. bridge when when we get to that um in in. the meantime um I've been so encouraged. by how many media Outlets have really.

filed briefs in support of of our. position that they understand that it's. a case that's going to impact everyone. who's working today and um that's. encouraging does it ever strike you how. small our world has become I so you you. work for 30 years or whatever more to. become it is more more I'm not I I. actually know how long it is but I I'm. not gonna time and you become you know. the most arguably famous investigative.

journalist in the United States I don't. know about that well I I would say. that's true or certainly you're top two. or three I mean well you are okay but. you like you you'd think that every news. organization be like oh my gosh. Katherine harage is free let's hire her. but you're independent on X like what. does that say about the landscape it's. just it's amazing well it was a personal. choice I I know that but but really. I mean NBC in a normal world would be. like hey we know pay $3 million a year.

to do what you do but they didn't so. like is is that a little strange I think. it's an indicator of how the marketplace. has really shifted yeah I I think it's I. think that's the biggest indicator to me. I didn't really understand how much sort. of the Earth had move moved beneath me. in the last four and a half years and. when you start to look at the numbers. you see that um these big corporate out. outlets are not uh essentially the The. Gatekeepers on the information anymore. yeah that it's that it's much larger on.

these on these platforms and I I really. believe in my heart that there is a. place for investigative journalism on. platforms like X and and other platforms. people are just hungry for it and that's. the investigation we did um it's like as. I said about three million people I mean. that's a that's a good healthy number do. you don't seem angry though no I don't I. don't feel angry really mhm there's not. a smoldering ball of rage inside toward.

your old employers no I I um look if. they don't want me to work there they. don't want me to work there I know the. work was it was not a performance issue. I heard from many of my colleagues who. were very very sad that they made I. heard from them too yeah um but that's. but that's not my call uh in the end the. but the seizing of the records was a. completely different thing that was. something that I was going to go to the. mat because I felt so so strongly uh. about youever explain why they stole. your stuff well in a letter to Congress.

they argued that they had not seized the. materials I think the language they used. was that they had tried to secure and. protect them um which I left me a little. uh speechless um because it was. diminishing reporter materials to work. product and to say that what had. happened was an effort to seize or. protect my materials. was I mean it just showed that some. Executives had a very difficult.

relationship with the facts that's kind. of a problem for news Executives though. right I don't think it's a good place to. be to be. sitting that's a very restrained way to. put it I am restrained but if you have. Liars in charge of a you know the. truth-telling business that's a problem. well I'm not saying I'm not saying that. I'm just saying that oh I am saying that. okay right I'm saying that I mean that's. just a you know. I don't know there are certain. businesses you sort of expect that you. know time share sales or whatever use.

cars but like if your job is to tell the. truth and the people in charge are just. like lie for fun it was very I said this. before it was very sad very very. disappointing um to see that see that. happen and I heard from people I used to. work with and they were really saddened. by it as well did any of them say I got. to get the hell out of here I can't work. for these people anymore I don't want to. go into the conversations but do you. feel like people who remain at. incorporate media jobs are desperate to. get out is that your sense in general I. think there's a lot of anxiety yeah I I.

think people are starting to feel the. sort of the earth move beneath them you. just have to look at the the ratings and. the numbers to. understand sort of the the for a lack of. a better term the old order has has kind. of disappeared that's for sure how long. can they keep going do you think I don't. know I think this election cycle will be. um pivotal if these Town Halls go ahead. on X I think it's the partnership with. news Nation I think that the the numbers.

on those Town Halls are going to be just. mind-blowing in in the true sense of of. the word and it's going to be Global and. uh I forget I think Elon Musk or uh. Linda Yaro posted on ask what the. numbers were with the presidential. debate and I mean when you looked at how. many people watched it on you know. traditional Outlets versus the kind of. um volume and engagement on on that. platform it I mean it was many multiple. times larger well the entire political.

conversation in the United States plays. out on X period I mean I I can't speak. for you know Sports entertainment. culture I mean there are many different. vertical in any civilization but the. political conversation takes place on X. period does not take place on any TV. channel or in any newspaper you think. that's fair I do I think it's and I. think it's exciting too actually to to. see it um a little bit Unleashed it's. not always Pleasant it's not always easy. but it's um it's sort of Unleashed and.

evolving and engaging and it's bringing. in different points of view and I think. that's what civil discourse uh is about. did you read it. before I did but but I I when I was uh. when I worked at Fox I was I was not on. what was uh Twitter at that time um and. then when I went to CBS I I joined. because I thought it would be a good way. for people to. me. um what role do you think X is playing.

in the media landscape right now o wow. you're asking me that's a big uh a big. question yeah I don't know that I know. the answer by the way um I I from my own. experience um when I had an. investigation that I thought was a. sensitive topic I felt very confident. that I could put it on X and there could. be a really engaging candid authentic. discussion about it and I thought that. was important because it seemed to be an. undercovered issue this is the the. Soldier Story yeah and um I was really.

grateful for that and I I would commend. Elon Musk in in that way I I kind of. understood it and then when I actually. went to do it I had a different and sort. of larger appreciation for it that. people could have that conversation and. the the comments that we received were. you know this happened to me or can you. look into this and I mean it was a very. organic thing and I think that you can't. look into every case you can't follow up. on everything um but I think there's.

something very positive about people. sharing their experiences and not. feeling so isolated on a subject that's. so sensitive and I I think that's uh. really. commendable well yeah and there's no. someone who thinks she's sincerely. believes she's been. injured because she followed an order. has nothing to be ashamed of and she. does have a right to tell her story in. public I I mean the whole thing is so. nuts that anyone would prevent a 24. year-old girl who thinks she's been.

injured by following an order from. talking in public is just like you're. not on the right side if you're. preventing that don't you think I think. it was the right thing to do I I I first. heard about her story last October and. it's always been in the back of my mind. as a story that should be done and so. when I decided to launch the first. investigation it just seemed like a. natural to me so when I. thinking back when I got into this. business when I left College in.

1991 um you've been in it for I think a. couple years maybe before no not long. but yeah know ' 87 ' 87 87 um so in 1987. you work for ABC News in London and the. Very the starter job of all starter jobs. that's crazy yeah it's hard to convey. now to younger people The Prestige that. attached to that. job um and you had you know all the all. the credentials necessary to get that. and he went to Harvard and Columbia well. the joke with my father was did you.

really go to Harvard to make coffee and. fax documents and photocopy I said. absolutely yeah and I make I I make the. I do the best job photocopying and. faxing of anyone I. know but it's about pride in your work. of course but it was such a different. world like that was a really rich. company then I mean they had like. catering and you know Executives F first. class you go wherever you wanted and I. mean did you ever look back on that and.

think boy that was just such a different. time it was I was um uh in touch. recently with there was sort of a little. Core group of us that were starting out. at that time between the news desk and. um what they called the production. control room and there were maybe 12 of. us between maybe 22 23 and. 27 and um we look back on that period is. kind of like a like a golden window in. television news the the quality of the. correspondence many had come out of.

Vietnam or had come out of Washington. and then got a foreign assignment the. crews were incredibly experienced yeah. you know if you had a cameraman take. your stand up you know he probably had. been in Beirut during the barracks. bombing and the editors were so exper I. mean you learned so much from from all. of them oh I I grip on that stuff yeah. those guys were impressive I mean this. was an incredible opportunity for me and. very. formative yeah and now yeah it's just.

it's I remember filling out my tax. return in 1991 my first job I worked at. a gas station on a factory but I never. like had a real job and I remember you. know occupation journalist I was like. I'm a. journalist now it's like I mean I don't. even know what I would put on there you. know I don't know armed robber would be. less. embarrassing but it was you know know it. seemed like a pretty honorable. profession I guess that's what I'm. saying I I you know I I hear what you're.

saying and you're going to accuse me of. being so sort of differential but I just. have always tried to stay focused on my. own work like I have to answer to myself. that's not def that's the opposite of. differential and ass kissy that's like. that's Integrity I just I just I'm like. is this the story I you know there's. stories in front of me which is the one. that I should really be doing where can. I make the most impact what's the story. that has been told that I can actually. so that's that's it right there that I. agree with you. 100% it's like it's not that hard to.

tell the truth I don't think it's pretty. easy actually it's easier than lying. what's hard is figuring out what you. should be focused on and I think you're. really good at that what are the stories. that should be told that aren't being. covered our our next project is going to. look at um the issue of uh immigration. and and the borders and I don't want to. give it all away but um we've got a lot. of good data about how uh Homeland. Security is in violation of federal law.

and regulations on a on a daily basis. and creating I think a significant. security risk for many American citizens. um and I think that that really deserves. a deep dive yeah um and it's a story. that I can really tell now that might. have been hard to tell before so I can't. even get um and I have tried like a. clear number on how many people have. come into this country legally over the. last four years I mean it ranges from 5.

million to 30 million and I can't and. those are all kind of credible estimates. and I I have no idea which one is. correct but why can't we get even a real. number on that I I I I think the the. simple answer may be and I don't know. but my my assessment would be that it's. just the volume that that we're talking. about I think it's the. volume so but there's not but to your. point I don't think there's great. transparency on this issue I hope to. bring a little bit more transparency to.

it um so in your judgment that's a big. deal story. oh 100% I yeah I and it's not just I'm. looking at what the the polling shows. about the top issues for American you. know American voters in this election. cycle I'm asking myself I have. information I think they violations of. federal law and federal regulations. every day uh at the border I need to. find out if that's really if that's.

really true and if it is true why is it. true and who is really losing in that. equation is is is the country less safe. as a result or or not I don't know the. answer to all of that yet but that's. that's a very legitimate story to Pur. and also how does a bankrupt country. which ours is pay for all these services. I don't yeah there are many questions I. totally agree but so you're focused on. the question is the federal government. violating it own laws federal employees. yes and to the extent that you've.

reported it out are you closer to An. Answer uh I I think based on our. reporting so far that it's it really uh. tips that way it does appear that way. and so my question is where's you know. who's been disciplined who's been. suspended who's been fired who's been. demoted and I'm not sure the answer is. really. anyone except the people who blew the. whistle on. it really don't make me give the story.

away I want to stop you right now like. I'm like so shocked I mean you know but. I think but that's the kind of uh to me. that's the kind of story you want to be. doing right I I just think it's. um the thing that has always encouraged. me about um the the the consumers of. news in this in this country is that. they really understand this idea of. accountability. they they they want to see it they. expect it they demand it and and when.

you do it I think it can be very. gratifying to you know to kind of shine. a it sounds like so oldfashioned but to. shine a light on an issue that really is. worthy of that and is sort of screaming. out for. coverage how do you I've had many people. ask me this over the years but you know. one channel will do a story or one. newspaper will do a story and then every. other Outlet will do exactly the same. story and some it's like a really. Boutique story you know it's a a story. of limited obvious importance but.

everyone does the same story how do. these like who decides that where how. does you know oh where does that come. from I mean I mean this comes from the. executives or the show producers but. have you noticed that you know I don't. know how many news organizations there. are in the United States in a country. with 350 million people there there are. a lot they all do you know a in a given. week they do a suite of maybe 20 stories. themes you know variations on a theme. perhaps but. but I I mean how why you'd think that I.

really I I wish I could answer that. question but you've noticed this right I. mean when you look at the rundowns let's. say for an evening news broadcast you'll. see a lot of the same stories now that. may be a function of the fact that they. have such limited time to tell the story. was it 18 or 19 minutes or 20 or 20. minutes but it's the the topics are the. same it's just interesting I'm not. suggesting. coordination um but I I do think it's a. I don't know what it is it's I think. it's a conspiracy of like-minded. temperament they all are kind of the. same people I I just I don't know huh.

but you'll concede there are a lot of. stories that they could be doing that. they're not yeah I I think. so that's that's the appeal of being. independent is that you can tell some of. the stories that maybe you couldn't tell. before is it weird not to have a. boss uh yeah it's a big change after. nearly four Decades of working um for. major media Outlets it's a it's a huge. change I've had a lot of change in the. last four months five months a lot do.

you miss being scolded I miss being. scolded. um I miss the structure I'm very used to. the structure um and uh you know. structure that you know has resources. that you didn't realize that you needed. until you went to do it yourself I'm. sure you understand that been there yeah. you've been there right um but I I. really like working with a small team. and as a group deciding what is it that.

we're going to pursue next and how can. we structure this story that it has an. impact and what kind of reporting do we. need to be doing and at what point do we. engage with government agencies and how. do we keep moving the story forward. after after we do it I I just find that. just kind of exhilarating and refreshing. all all at the same time and in a. Marketplace that's really just exploding.

where you're setting your own boundaries. and your own rules right you are saying. okay I've got almost four Decades of. experience this is what I believe. journalism is this is how I'm going to. execute it these are my standards these. are my expectations and I'm going to be. true to those I'm I'm GNA follow it. through that's the exciting part of it. and then having a public that response. to it which I'm you know so grateful for. people like honesty in a world full of. lies I.

think do you feel that people are. looking for credible reliable. information in a way that I never may be. seen in my lifetime working as a. journalist oh so maybe what you're. saying is that as a business journalism. is like more discredited than it's ever. been and more disliked but individual. journalists who decide to tell the truth. are. I don't know I don't know if I I don't. know if I would go that far I'm not sure. how comfortable I am. really commenting on the whole you know.

profession that way how um I I just sort. of come back to my you know I come back. to my own you know my my own work I I. wrote something recently for the Free. Press which is really an amazing. operation it's Barry Weiss has really. built it into this sort of you know. engaging driving thing you know it's. like it's like a great source for. information I wrote something on on the. Press act and you know that it's the.

protection of sources is the hill to die. on and it was such a great experience to. work with them and to see the reach of. that story and to take an issue that I. felt needed to kind of you know poke up. through the noise and get some attention. because all of our our futures our. careers rest on that basic principle so. to me that's an example of you know an. independent media Outlet which is really. has a lot of impact and made a. difference how of the people that you.

worked with 30 years ago were any still. around in the business oh I'm trying to. think um a lot of them are retired now I. went to a a reunion an ABC London. reunion I want to say it was maybe seven. years ago SE six or seven it was before. I just before I went to. CBS and a lot of people were retired a. lot of people had um passed. a lot of them were already gone is that. weird yeah it's sad but um I learned so.

much from them and I think that not to. sound um too sentimental but I think you. carry that on I think one of the. greatest things you can do at a certain. point in your career is to share your. experience and to share the skill set. that you that you have and I really. enjoy doing that especially with younger. journalists how long you going to do it. oh you know we I talk about this with. our kids how long am I going to do this. and when will I retire and that you know.

they all have the same verdict which is. like oh mom like you need to keep. working as long as you can work because. you really if we had you loosen the. house all the time it would just be. crazy and you love I mean I just love it. I feel fortunate to have found something. I feel so passionate about maybe you. feel of course I do maybe you feel the. the the same way of course and I I can't. sort of I'm I'm surprised even by the. evolution of where I am um today and I'm.

surprised that I'm fighting in the. courts to be protecting confidential. sources but if if there's something that. folks who are listening and watching. this can take away is that you know I. came out of February so it was a tough. time there's no question about it but I. had a lot of clarity and sometimes. crisis gives you Clarity and the idea of. a free press and Free Speech these.

really became my Northstar they really. became the driving force of what I'm. going to do in this next. chapter yeah I couldn't agree more and. it's weird to wake up and see things you. took for granted under threat did you. ever think that free speech in the. United States would be open to question. no I I wouldn't have anticipated the. situation that I'm in now that's that's. for. sure well we're rooting for you. fervently thank you Katherine her thank.

you very much it's so good to see you. thanks for having. [Music]. to so it turns out that YouTube is. suppressing our show I know shocking. that in an election year with everything. at stake Google would be putting its. thumb on the scale and preventing you. from hearing anything that the people in. charge don't want you to hear but it. turns out it's happening so what can you. do about it well we could whine about it. but that's a waste of time we're not in. charge of Google or we could find a way.

around it a way that you could actually. get information that's true it's not. intentionally deceptive and the way to. do that on YouTube we think is to. subscribe to our Channel subscribe and. you'll have a much higher chance of. hearing what we say and we hope you will.