Bob Amsterdam: How USAID Is Helping Zelensky Destroy Christianity With Fake Churches and Violence

So thank you. Thank you for doing. this. You're one of the few people who. at the end of our last conversation, I thought, I want to talk to that. man again because you're one of the. few that I know who. has a real sense of what it's like. in Ukraine and has been for the last. three years since the war began. How would you summarize the. situation in Ukraine right now? Dire. Dire situation is dire.

Zelensky is wildly. unpopular. There are pressure gangs to take. people to the front. People are without. hope and. the casualties are enormous. and the corruption is enormous. And imagine.

sending your child to the front. knowing all of this as. you know. I represent the Ukrainian. Orthodox Church, so our parishioners. go to the front while their churches. are being stolen back home. While parishioners, elderly. parishioners and priests are being. beaten. And you know what I've what I've. always said to people who defend. Zelensky is, you know, all his numbers are. complete fabrications. If he was popular, if he was.

trusted, he wouldn't have destroyed. the press. He wouldn't be jailing and labeling. with treason charges, political. opponents. And. there would have been some control. on the corruption in the courts. are impossible. It's a police state. This the SBU, The secret police. Run and intimidate everyone. and everything. And yet the Western press. has blockaded this story. The dishonesty of some. of the people that are reporting.

from Ukraine. is astounding. I've never seen anything like it. I've been involved with cases. involving wars and disputes, but the absolute. lying and. the games that are. our papers are playing. The Wall Street Journal, for. instance, barely, barely has an op ed that doesn't. Lord Zelensky. You never get reality. about what's actually going on in.

the presidential administration. You get no coverage. You know, there's a law 3894. to destroy the Ukrainian. Orthodox Church. No law has been passed like this in. Europe since World War Two. against the Jews. There's no coverage. The the argument when I say to the. press, how can. you do this? How can you not cover. people talking about religious. cleansing who are members. of the Ukrainian parliament?

How can you not cover it? They say, well, this church is. somehow a Russian thing. We you know, as I've told you, we have reached a point where. this narrative, the Zelensky. narrative, has been accepted. and our people simply don't. don't challenge it. They fall if they fall to. it. And it's it's really been. down to the new administration. to put a pin. in that balloon. It's kind of hard to skip.

over you and your role in all. this. I think you're the only. American attorney who's worked. in Ukraine, who I have seen is. telling the truth about what's. actually happening there. And for doing that, you've been. called a Russian stooge of Putin. worshiper. Your character has been impugned. Can you just take a couple of. minutes, tell us who you are? Why are you representing the. Orthodox Church in Ukraine? Are you a Putin puppet? Look, for.

45 years. I've done political. cases all over the world. We've taken on some big. enemies. We took on the United Nations. pro bono on behalf of. an individual worker. for the U.N. that they had. destroyed. We got two assistant. secretaries general disciplined. in that in that case that that made. history inside the U.N. And we were awarded the global. Pro bono award from American.

Lawyer for doing that case. I represented political opponents. of Putin in Moscow. I was arrested in Moscow at. 2 a.m., and they tried to load me into. a vehicle, get me out of there. I wouldn't go with you. I just wanna be clear on this. You. were arrested by the Putin. government at 2 a.m. in Moscow. That's right. And 2005. defending a political opponent to. Vladimir Putin.

And in fact, you have been banned from Russia. ever since. I hold no water for Putin. I represent opponents. of the Russian government in various. countries, continue to represent. political opponents of Putin. It hasn't stopped the Ukrainians. from launching a massive. disinformation campaign against. me because of my defense. of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, which is the majority Church. of Ukraine, which Zelensky.

and his gang have been trying to. destroy. I am on the legal team of. some of the priests. that they have illegally jailed. We. Have an individual in. London who fled the country. because Zelensky had literally sent. people to. basically I don't want. to use the word liquidate him, but he had to virtually. run across a border. This is a member of the Rada.

who Yarmouk took away. his security. He had to run across the border. to save his life, and his crime was speaking out. against a law to destroy. his church. Which back up for one second. So you're a I think it's. fair to say, broad terms, a Jewish liberal from the Bronx who. was arrested by Putin. How did you wind up. how did you wind up representing the. Russian Orthodox Church in Ukraine? Why was that important of all the.

cases you could take, why that one? Well, let's be clear. It's the. Ukrainian Orthodox Church. We are not part. of the RC. We are. We share only a canonical. link. Our church. denounced the invasion. Our church separated. itself administratively 30. years ago, and every Ukrainian that's. orthodox has been baptized. in our church five. years ago.

A new church was established. in Ukraine. By the Poroshenko administration. with the active connivance. of the United States government. The State Department of the United. States was involved in the. establishment of the church. I believe either USAID. or some other organizations have. funded this state. church called the O. C U. This is a basically kind of. a CIA operation, if you will, to to.

set up a church that. would be completely free. of what they viewed as the dangerous. Putin influence. So you have our State Department. violating our Constitution, openly engaging. in the destruction of religious. freedom in a foreign country, doing things absolutely. illegal under our Constitution. All in like establishing religion. Yes. All in the name. of anti Putin activities. And because I am.

so very strongly. against the present Russian. administration, I insisted. on traveling to Kiev. with a bunch of my lawyers. to interview. We were we were privileged to meet. with the Holy Synod to. to meet with senior members. of the church, interview. priests, interview lawyers, so I could fully accept. the mandate to fight. for a church that. was being driven out.

of existence. This is something that's not. supposed to happen in the 21st. century. And as a Jew. who feels strongly about freedoms. from my Christian brothers and. sisters, as somebody who. feels that religious freedom. is the foundation of all. our freedoms, Yes. And I believe that. to the to the center of my being. I could not believe that the. American government, a. government for which I signed.

up for the draft on. my birthday when I was 18, when we were still in Vietnam. This government could be. funding the destruction. of this church. So we've studied it. We've met with people who. were at high levels. of the US government who confirmed. for me that this was a US government. operation and. we have done everything we can. and we have We have walked into.

a wall of Ukrainian. propaganda inside Washington. And I want to be very clear. I just finished speaking at. a religious freedom conference. It was a religious freedom. conference that in. many ways was managed by the. Ukrainian government. There it was Ukraine, Washington, in Washington, D.C.. My team was barely afford. it. An allowance to go in. We were we were not allowed in a. year ago.

This time we were allowed in. They wouldn't take our we were. Defending a church against a. dictator. But you're not allowed to. appear to religion, correct? That's right. That's correct. And this time, when I went. to the Religious Freedom Conference, I was only allowed. They stacked the panel I was on. with a a. priest from the other church, and they gave me basically five. minutes to. present my views, which were. that, in fact,

this this other church, which, by the way, has stolen. 1500 of our churches, engaged in mobile. Phone. The buildings. The buildings. Yes. Stolen them, stolen them. outright, stolen them and. and worse, beaten. our priests. Beaten our parishioners. And I have this all on video. If you go to save the euro sitcom, you will see the videos of our. parishioners being beaten. These are the elderly parents of. people at the front fighting.

for the liberation and protection. of Ukraine, being beaten. very often by by. SBU. That's their secret. Police wearing death. masks with Nazi. insignias on their arm. And let me be very clear to you that. you will never hear elsewhere. There is a massive right. wing movement in Ukraine. that has tremendous influence. Our newspapers were warning. this warning of this.

in the late teens, and once the war started, we never. heard anything else. It's as if all these neo-Nazis. disappeared. They haven't disappeared. They're part of the Ukrainian. government. But you're never allowed. to say that because if you say. anything like that, you are. told that you are a Putinism. And Kasparov is summed it up. He's basically said, if you. criticize Zelensky in. any way, you're a Putin. So the fact that he's destroyed. civil society, he's destroyed.

a free media, he jails. or sanctions or charges with. treason, his opponents. we're supposed to ignore all of that. because if we mention it or if I. stand on a soapbox to scream. that he's jailing and torturing. priests, we are somehow dis. entitled to speak. We have this crazy adopted. authoritarianism now where. we we as a country. of institutions, have.

made a king out of Zelensky. We have we have allowed him to. destroy every Ukrainian institution. out there that's independent. And we've turned him into a king. or demigod. And I will tell you that. one of the instruments that was. being used to attack. me, for instance, was Fara, you know. A foreign agent registration act. That's right. I'm. a journalist in The Washington Post, too. We offered to interview all. sorts of beaten.

priests instead focused on. me, tried to make it sound like I. was in Putin's pay and somehow. violated Fara when. I knew very, very well. I had an exemption because I. represent the church. It's been it's been crazy. I've gone into meetings. Firstly, most Democrats, almost all Democrats, but a few, including Dick Durbin, who gave us a very respectful. hearing. Almost all Democrats wouldn't meet. with us,

which really shocks me because. I you know, I've been a lawyer for. 45 years. I generally get meetings when I need. them. None. Republicans, on the other hand, often their staff at least, were. willing to meet with us. One senator. had the courage to stand up and. speak out. And that man, God bless him, is. now the vice president of the United. States. He was the only one. J.D. Vance was the only one. The only one. Absolutely. And he will I will.

forever be in his debt because. he took the. destruction of Christ children. seriously enough to raise. it. And he was outraged that. our government was allowing it. He didn't even go so far. I don't think he understood that we. were, in fact, funding and. supporting it. And there is a guy in the Ukrainian. government, a mr. Joe Lenski, not Zelensky Yellow. Energy, who's been in charge. of the destruction of this church. for years. His life.

Blood is to destroy this. church. He helps. I'm sure he directs the SBU to. jail. These priests I work with. Guess who. We are? Lansky is young Lansky with a with. a Y, and he's written some very. interesting books. I don't want to get into that. What about what? Just. Just nothing. Everything you can think of against. religious freedom. He. He has written about when it was. the Soviet Union. Really? Well, he wrote a book about. Zionism and clericalism.

This is the guy that is. heading up their department. of Religion, essentially. And freedom. This guy was honored. and given an honored position. at the Religious Freedom Conference. in Washington. With the persecutor of the Orthodox. Church, was given a position of. prominence at a religious freedom. conference. You have that right. What conference was I mean, this is. The one that was in Washington, a. huge conference that went right.

before the prayer breakfast in. Washington. Does anyone say anything other than, you know? No, because nobody. The only thing they were worried. about. I got a call. What about all the Christians? Well, they're silent. I got a call. Why is it left to you? I mean, this is this. This is the point where I feel like. pulling my hair out. Well. Why is this your job? Well, and let me. Tell Mike Johnson and all these. other Christians in the Congress are. always talking about how Christian. they are. Well, I can tell you that. because of the smear.

And we understand that the. Ukrainians gave a $3.6. million contract. to a PR firm in Washington. to go after my church and me. So I've had. vicious letters written about me. all over the place talking about me. as a Russian agent. We have had you who. Are arrested by Putin. Yeah. Yeah, we have. We have the Hudson. Institute, a reputable.

institute hosting an event, taking the Ukrainian line. We wanted to get. a voice. It was about religion in Ukraine. We weren't allowed to join. The Hudson Institute. We weren't allowed to join the. Hudson Institute. because I think the Ukrainian. propaganda machine are indirectly. sponsoring these things. And what they're doing is they're. running shows and movies. about Russian activities,

anti evangelical activities. in the Donbass, which I believe. are happening and which I. completely support. You know, there is no there is no. one more. than me who will support. evangelicals or anyone else who are. being oppressed. But to sponsor this type. of activity and not mention. our church is a scandal. to avoid mentioning. the majority church of Ukrainians.

And never say a word about law. 3894 that. destroys our church. We will not have a church in six. months. Lent is. Here. The period before Easter, the. 40 days. And it's a unique chance. to get closer to God. That's the point of it. Hello. The world's number one prayer. app can help you do that during. their prayer 40 challenge. It's a great way to connect with. Christians all over the world and. unite in preparation for Easter, which is the payoff of this season. It's called The Way it helps.

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so you can sign up at hello.com/tucker. when you join check out thousands. of guided prayers, meditations, music and everything. There is a ton on how we're. all designed to help you find peace. and closeness to God. Download the Halo app and jump onto. the Went Pray 40 challenge. right now. Do you know who the State Department. worked on this up. to create a fake church? Yes. Yes. It dates back to 2014.

We believe it began with Victoria. Nuland, who I mean, this was. a big operation because. she worked with the. ambassador of the United. States to Ukraine, amazingly becomes. the ambassador of the United States. to Greece. And it is, in fact, the patriarch. of the Constantinople.

church that. becomes the one. who engineers. the basically the destruction. of our church by taking. canonical control. away from Moscow and. taking it to himself, violating a treaty from. the 17th century. So we have the United States and by. the way, this was engineered by. Secretary of State Pompeo. So this isn't just a Democrat thing. Secretary of State Pompeo was.

directly. Tweeting Toria Nuland and Mike. Pompeo is very is negligible. Doesn't there's no difference at all. that I'm aware of. He may be. slightly smarter. He's smarter than she is and. therefore more sinister. But they have the same views on. everything. Well, in any event, Pompeo was. involved in in. basically having. this what's called a in religious. terms, a Thomas. granted so that Ukraine. could establish an auto surplus. church. This is in 2019.

So the church that. that is allegedly now. a clean church. away from Russia is five. years old. And that church, which we. believe is partially U.S. funded, has engaged in. a vicious campaign. of harassment, intimidation, coordination with secret police. to steal churches, to disrupt. events, to break.

priests. I mean, you have to understand, I have met tortured. priest. I have met priests. One priest I met the day. after his meeting with me had a. heart attack during an interrogation. by the SBU. I mean, just try to imagine. Well, U.S.. Tax dollars are paying for the. torture of priests. I mean, that's that's yeah, that's. yeah. And I mean, you know, for. those who say this is not true, please, please call. Mr. Demetric,

who is now, thank God, in. safety in London and. who is a former member of. the Rada who will. be saying in open court because. he's now fighting bogus extradition. charges. He will be outlining all of this. in open court about what's happened. to him. And he is just a microcosm. of what's happened in Ukraine. And, you know, it. is the the. ongoing treason. charges.

As you know, as I've said, I'm now. exposed to a criminal investigation. in Ukraine, something that. even Putin didn't do. To me, this is all Lansky is. doing to me because I'm defending. a church. In Putin's case, I'm defending. opponents of Putin. But in Zelensky's case, I'm. defending a church and. they've opened up a criminal. investigation. Would you be able. to go to Ukraine right now? No. I think the whole reason. is to ensure that.

I don't spend time with my clients. There's also the question of. violence, which everyone ignores. They've committed violence against. the church you represent. They've also committed a lot of. violence. A lot of people have been. killed. Noncombatants have been killed by. this Lonski government and people. I know have been targeted for. assassination, including a head of. state in Europe. And so I, I don't know why that. doesn't get any coverage like you. would be afraid to go to you. You're an American citizen. You're an attorney. You have clients in Ukraine.

It's our client state. And yet you would be afraid to go. there. Well, let me let me take it a step. further. With all of the Farris stuff. that went on and with The Washington. Post publishing all this stuff. and with Mr. Zelensky almost. literally demanding. compliance from the United States. under the Democrats, I was. hesitating to come home. I mean, the Ukrainians had. such a lock on Washington. It is unbelievable.

And the Ukrainian Rada. demanded that U.S. authorities investigate me. because I wrote a letter. to the Rada, an open and public. letter, saying to every. member of the Rada, if. you pass a bill. that destroys your church, you could be individually. subject to sanctions. That is completely within my rights. as an American citizen. to inform a foreign legislator.

who is engaged in essentially. criminal activities that. they need to return to. Religious freedom. should not be controversial. And it is on this basis that. the Ukrainians were begging our. own authorities to get involved. How did the Ukrainians. So I mean, 15 years ago, my whole. life, Ukraine, you know, it's the largest country. and the most corrupt country in. Europe. It was it was an. afterthought. Lots of wheat is grown there, very. pretty women. But it's Ukraine.

It's not central to anybody's. strategy. And all of a sudden you wake up and. Ukrainians seem to be in charge of. the U.S. government. How did that happen? Look, I'm. going to be speaking about this on. Friday. I think. that you have to go back to the. Mueller investigation. I think you have to go back to the. Russia scare. And I think that a tremendous. amount of partizan. politics was played out. involving Russia. And it instilled a tremendous amount.

of fear in the United States. And the Ukrainians. have developed the. most sophisticated. propaganda and information. campaign I've ever seen. I have never seen any. country engage. in this level of competent, highly sophisticated. disinformation that, by the way, they accused the Russians of. There is no day of the week. The Russians have been 10%.

as effective as the Ukrainians. I will say, knowing the Russians, the very smart lead the world in. chess and engineering, But they're. they're just embarrassing. us on the propaganda question. that they're embarrassing. They are. They're bad. I mean, I'm not you know, I like. Russia, but I'm not. It's just a fact. They're not good at that stuff at. all. No. And, you know, I fought. them and we were quite. successful at exposing. the false charges against.

some leading Russian businessmen. So I've seen them in action, but I've never seen anything as. effective at developing. the American narrative as. the Ukrainian narrative in the. United States exerting. huge levels of control over. media. I mean, we had an. interview with The Guardian. three, three days. or four days after I got back. Very, very, very competent.

Reporter. took down notes, was in shock at. what happened. The Guardian never published the. story. This is The Guardian who will. publish anything about anybody. involving human rights. They wouldn't publish the story. because it. went against. There's two obstacles. One, it goes against the Russia. narrative. And two, all of the guys on the ground. for the Western press. sell books on Ukraine. And I do.

wonder if there's a commercial. motive in the reporting, because. if you look and some of these guys. are my friends, but I got to wonder. if you look at it, no wonder they're notoriously. blind to what's going on. Well, there's some kind of unspoken. motive here because none of this. makes any sense. I mean, Ukraine is so far outside. of our orbit, Ukraine, it's not one of those countries have. not had any influence over American. foreign policy or public discourse. at all. And all of a sudden, it you.

know, you can't even say. An obvious truth about the country. or you get in trouble or in my case, you get fired or whatever. What what does that actually about? What are the deeper interests here? I Do you have any clue? Look, as I said. No, no other country could do that, no matter how sophisticated the. propaganda is or almost. Nobody. I look, I, I have said to myself, because I've I've, I've done. many, many controversial. cases in my career. Yeah. Nothing's ever approached this in.

terms of the blowback. when you're, you know, you say to. somebody like all of these people. today that are speaking out about. The president's statement above 4%. and they're saying, that's crap, that 60% rates. The president said that Zelensky had. an approval rating of 4%. Right. I'm sorry. So. I say to myself, Mr. Zelinsky. can't argue the numbers. because he is in. a police state. He has no media, he. has no opponents. He just he he just cited.

for treason. Treason. 2 or 3 of the most important. people in Ukraine, including his predecessor, Poroshenko. He's done everything he can to. mobilize forces. To destroy any hope of. freedom or opposition. He hasn't held an election. He is, in fact, under their. constitution. Out of time. He should be out of office.

He has no constitutional mandate. What is the definition of a. dictator? He's not unelected. strongman who has eliminated his. opposition. I mean. And he's trying to argue about how. popular he is. Well, I'm sorry. You know, there's this old. expression, res ipsa loquitur. It speaks for itself. Yeah. I mean, if you're. popular, you don't ban. the press and jail. your opponents. He it seems to me, having, you know, used a drug myself. many years ago, he seems like he's. on cocaine to me.

I don't know that I'm no evidence of. it. I hear a lot of people say that. Have you heard that? I've heard it a lot. Or just in passing? No, I've heard a lot. But I have no, I can't. say it. I have no evidence and. I don't either. Yeah, I hear it a lot, including. from people in Europe who know him. Again, no, but is that is. that widely believed in Ukraine, do. you know? I, I believe it. is. But again, you know, I hesitate. I don't like ad hominem comments. No, no, no. But you look at the guy and you're. like, there's something wrong.

Well, except what's wrong. is the resonance he seems. to have with everybody. in Europe. I mean, if you look at. Germany, for instance, and this is. another subject that as a. lawyer who cares about freedom. drives me crazy. What you're sanctions. The Ukrainians not. only have engaged in this massive. propaganda campaign to dehumanize. Russia. Now, that's different. than saying Russia. engaged in aggressive war, which.

I agree with. Yeah, that's different. They they have gone to the next. level and tried to make it appear. as if peace is somehow. a crime, that you cannot. make peace with these. people. Because the Russians are subhuman. Exactly. But hold on. It gets worse. Full Nazi propaganda. No. Is subhuman. Raw human. But. But it gets it gets worse because. our government under Biden. has led the world in. an insane sanctioning campaign. Insane because it is contrary.

to American interests. What have we done exactly? Number one, we have. consolidated Putin's power. The people who were opposed to Putin. in London and other places have had. to go back to Moscow because their. currency is not working, their kids. can't go to school again. We have the subhuman thing. Number two, we have consolidated. the relationship between Russia. and China, the very thing. that Richard Nixon worked very. hard never to do.

We have done it. We've absolutely. built up the economies of. all sorts of transit countries. That does that don't help us at all. by having these phony, phony. economies come up with. So you're referring referring to. Russian energy shipments. So Russia has a ton of energy. The world needs a ton of energy. But these sanctions make it. impossible to conduct. straightforward business. So they're going through what you call. transit companies and countries, and they're doing all kinds of. subterfuge to cloak this.

But everyone knows that's happening. that this we are referring to. Exactly. And, you know, we. are making. we're making India very great. today by. their engaging in this arbitrage. We're consolidating groupings. power. We are working. We are working to. empower him against Taiwan. And we are doing everything not. in America's interest. So who's the we here who's doing. this? Like, honestly, honestly,

like, what is this? Because it was obvious to me the day. Russia invaded, which I didn't think. would happen, and I was opposed to. it, of course. But the first day this happened, I thought, they're going to get rid. of the US dollar as the world's. reserve currency. That's exactly. what this is. This is all of this. seems like an attack on the West. to me. Well, who who. Who is behind this? Do you have any idea? Look, you know, I can only tell. you that if. you if you study sanctions, there are very few people. ever who have said they work.

what sanctions are. It's a very cheap way for. governments who are not very. effective to tell their populace. we're doing something. But what it does is I. Think Fidel Castro died in his bed. Yeah, exactly. What it does is it empowers. the most corrupt all over. the world. We are empowering Ukrainian. corruption. We are empowering the corruption. of our business interests. We are doing everything to dis. establish America's. position. We are giving Putin.

the armament to get away from. the dollar. We're doing everything. for them to establish alternative. payment systems. We are building our opponents. with a sanction system that violates. the rule of law, that denies. people their human rights very. often, some of the most in. Serious people going. It is the most counterproductive. system we've put in place. And yet everybody's going crazy. that Elon Musk is trying. to engage in, I'll admit, pretty unique efforts.

to reduce the. budget deficit. But nobody's talking about how our. government has propagating, in. my view, these these absolutely. violative sanctions. all over the world that. are totally. destroying our. rule of law and America. as a safe haven for those. opposed to people like Bolton. Sanctioning people's children. You didn't do anything wrong. Why would.

You know, why would U.S. policymakers be why would. Tory, a new one, want that? I mean, that just seems cruel. And look, let me tell you, I'm. dealing with a case in Switzerland. The Swiss are. worse than the Americans. I know. Because they're so scared. of the United States enforcement. that we. literally are defending children. who are being attacked by the Swiss. So the whole. the whole sanction situation, this whole dehumanizing.

of people with Russian names. that no one is speaking out against. because we're all afraid. We're all in this. You know, I call it the the. authoritarianism of the left. that we are all. subject to this, you know, wokeism. authoritarianism, this. this unwillingness to give. the opponent a voice. But I thought I mean, I thought this. was the key indelible.

lesson of the 1940s, that when governments decide that. some people don't have human rights. because of their genetic makeup, it winds up with mass murder. and it's bad for everybody. And so we're never doing that again. We're never going to allow any. demagogue or group of demagogues to. say that group right there is. not entitled to human rights and. we're going to hurt them. I thought. that was the lesson. I'm 55. I grew up in a country that remember. that. Let me tell you something. This law in Ukraine, Law. 3894.

is one of the most dangerous. pieces of legislation I've ever. seen. And it's not alone. In Estonia, they're attempting to. destroy the Russian Orthodox Church. These Baltic countries that. are bulwarks of freedom and. democracy are going after. those churches, too. And even though those churches are. not separate from Russia, and I. recognize that and yes, the Russian Orthodox Church has been. instrumentalized. I agree. I still say under a. rule of law stage, you.

go after those people who commit. offenses. You do not ban a church. It is you banning people's. religions. Then how are you better. than what you oppose? Exactly. And yet. the Religious Freedom Conference. honors the very author. of this insane letter. Sponsored this conference. It's you know, all I know is I think the the. there's a chairman who's a former. Republican senator.

I think it's made up of charitable. donations. I haven't I. haven't studied who the sponsor is. I'm sure there's U.S. government involvement. Mr. Vance, Vice President Vance. spoke, spoke very well. I mean, he's as I as I said. before, I mean, he's he's set off a. revolution in Europe with his. speech, which I welcome. because I believe he's identified. a tremendous problem in Europe. in terms of freedom.

of speech and the the basic. freedoms. Although I you know, I have to say. Working in Georgia, working and knowing what's happening. in French, don't you? You cannot minimize the threat of. Vladimir Putin. It exists. So in September, we went across the. country, coast to coast, 17. different cities on a nationwide. live tour. And it was amazing. We brought the entire staff with us. like we always do, because we all. worked together for so long and. enjoy traveling together. And one of our producers is a.

documentary filmmaker, and so. he decided to make a documentary. film about our trip. A full month across America. was the most interesting people. around. Different people joined us. every single night on Gino. and Russell Brand and Bobby Kennedy. and J.D. Vance and Donald Trump, etc., etc. We had the best time. And the Fruit of That is a. documentary called On the Road, the. Tucker Carlson Live tour, which. is available right now. on TCM on the road. Tucker Carlson Live tour is. hilarious. You like it?

So. you said that you went up to the. U.S. Congress and you tried to get. the attention of members. Judy Barnes was the only one who. would listen to you. Out of 100 senators. What about in the House? I attended a few meetings, as I said, where I were where I was. generally insulted by people. We had very few consulted. Yeah, we had very few congressmen. who would meet us.

We had some. some very courageous. lobbyists who we. worked for, worked with and. still work with, including. a Democrat, a former Democrat, Congressman Ron Klink, who because. he's a I think a devout Christian, has, I think really. suffered a lot reputationally. by working with me. And God bless him for. having the strength and courage.

to to do. that, because as he. new knows, I mean, we're completely. nonpartizan. We're not actually lobbying. the United States at all. We want people to. talk to the Ukrainians. and simply explain to the. Ukrainians, let this law. to ban our church is. unacceptable. Especially since we're paying for. it. Have you ever voted for a. Republican in your life? Never.

Yes, sir. Just wanted to be clear about that. So you were arrested by Putin and. you've never voted Republican. So it's just why people understand. where you're coming from here? No, no. I mean, that's that's very. much where I'm coming from, though. I will say, you. know, quite frankly, that. I think what's been dangerous about. the past few administrations. is that there. there breaks with rule of law. have been wildly. pronounced but hidden.

Whatever you want to say about. President Trump, I think. that it's far. healthier where he. does. He does a number of things I. disagree with. It's out in the open and we can. address it, attack it if we. think it's wrong, but it's out in. the open. With the prior administrations, it was all hidden from view. and it was almost impossible. to attack like sanctions, you know, almost impossible to. attack, very difficult to deal.

with. And. the this authoritarianism, this denial of. the civic space. is hugely important. Yes. And it's it's. what we in the United States have. done to ourselves. I really can barely. watch CNN. I understand they have serious. problems with President Trump. I get it. But there is a whole world out. there. And President Trump has made. a tremendous amount of waves.

in that world. Surely, beyond. bashing the guy, we can deal. with some of the real problems. like my church, which has never been. covered by CNN. ever, ever that to I know. They cover Ukraine all day long, but. they've never mentioned that the. government banned a Christian. denomination. Never. Not only the majority church. of the country. Let's be clear. And when I went to church, one of my first times in church. But the patriarch of our church.

insisted that I attend church and. Love You call it our church. He he insisted I attend the churches. because he wanted me to see the. difference between our church. and the other church. So I went. I went to church after church. Our churches were full. Our priests were like. rush hour traffic on a Sunday. I mean, we're having multiple. services because there are now. so few churches because the other. church is stealing them.

So when you go to the other church, they're virtually empty. In fact, many of the churches. they've stolen, they've turned into. museums. I mean, which just. Like Soviet what's going on, you. Know, and I was in there. Created their banning religion and. creating a state church. And let me tell you something. I was. in the Soviet Union, so. I'm you know, I'm older than you. I was in the Soviet trying. To get the Jewish refuseniks out. Correct. Beginning just at the beginning. I wasn't a lawyer then or doing much. of anything, but I went because. I knew this problem existed.

You know, I was a very, very young. boy, but my father wanted me to go. I think I was one of the only, only guys. I think I was the first soul. traveler to a place called Kissinger. of Moldova. This is way back in the 70s, and I was interrogated. My first interrogation by the KGB. was when I was like 17. So I've had a long history in. this region. I went to the Louvre.

when I was I. studied under Ukraine's greatest. historian. Bowden But Churchill, his. son, is now a noted. a noted speaker. and expert on on. Ukraine and very pro Ukrainian. and a very, very serious. person. But I went there at the. express direction of. his father, and I went to the. Louvre to just experience. this incredible I mean, the Louvre was incredible.

And this is. From the scene of these. clashes where. Zelensky's government has taken the. love control of the lover away. from our church and handed it. to the nationalist church. So there's this huge nationalism. in Ukraine that is. the motive behind Zelensky's. destruction of my church. and its political, our. church and the Donbass. The more Russian speaking part of. Ukraine, had supported Zelensky,

but with the. unfortunate aggression. against Ukraine, that voter block. is denied to him. So he has had to. move much further to. the xenophobic. side of the Ukrainian spectrum. to keep his. base. And we think that's. that's primarily. some of the politics behind.

him agreeing to the destruction. of our church. Classically, what may be an. unanswerable question. So you were describing the effects. of the Ukraine war on the West and. on the United States and basically. knocking the US from its perch, and. that's causing all kinds. of problems, the loss of the US. dollar, the alignment, the permanent. now alignment between Russia and. China. If you were China. and you were trying to, you know, assert yourself as a. global power, which you have every. right to do, in my opinion, but you try to subvert the United. States like you would do everything. you could like whose interest.

is being served in this? And it seems like the Chinese. interest is being served. So if you've our entire media, our. political establishment is all in on. this thing that hurts the United. States. Is it possible that China has a role. in that? Look, I'm somebody who, as a young man, studied China. and then the Soviet Union. I do not have. an animus towards China. in terms of seeing them. in the in the negative.

light. I think there was hope for our. relationship that's been. kind of destroyed. I think it's still possible, by the way, to be resurrected, but certainly. it is to some extent in. China's interest. But we never understand. something that's fundamental to. zapping survival, which is he is on an. economic fault line. He needs GDP growth at. plus 5%. Yes. To survive.

a flourishing relationship. with the United States could. be in his interests under. under a different type of. I think that's right. Relationship. And I think what we've done. is we've almost. forced the Russians into becoming. an unequal partner. to the Chinese. That is exactly. Right. The Chinese, of course, have this history of a century of. humiliation, suffering under. unequal treaties. Now, they are the ones.

offering unequal treaties. to countries like Russia. They are. And that massive Chinese. investment in Russia right now. massive. And it's very noticeable. when you go there. Why is this country so prosperous? There's a war going on. A real war, too. And and the answer in part. is because there's huge Chinese. investment in Russia and it's. solidifying a relationship based on. mutual benefit. I would say to the point. where it is not be broken. Yeah, well, never. underestimate.

the root antagonisms. of the Chinese Russian relationship. Well. That's a valid point. And show a different. administration than the. Democrats could possibly. engage in some of the behavior. that Nixon first developed. It is absolutely contrary. to American interests for China. and Russia to be one. So we have, from a. geopolitical standpoint, a lot.

of work to do. Yes. Working with the Indians, working. with others in terms of trying to. figure out how to divide. these countries. And and this is why. a focus solely on Ukraine. to the tremendous cost of. our own geopolitical position. is so insane. Well, I completely agree. And I travel a lot. So I see the. effects, you know, everywhere. So you've you've mentioned that. Europe, for whatever reason, I still. think it's baffling. But is is all. in on this completely all in on it. Keir Starmer, just the Prime.

Minister. Great Britain's just said. that they're signing some 100 year. defense deal with Ukraine. It's insane. Germany, same thing ish. China, we know is benefiting. to some extent. India, you said, is. a massive beneficiary of all the. stuff. What about the Middle Eastern. countries? What about the Arab world. and Israel? What what interest do. they have here? What connection do. they have to the Ukraine war? Any? Look, I think. there it's. Africa that suffered the most. Yes. Simply because their their food. supply is exactly terribly.

impaired. Riyadh. With benefits always. from this type of. geopolitical issue because they. benefit from great relationships. with everybody. You know, it's. like this is. old Turkish foreign policy of, you. know, making friends at every. border. That's what they're doing. As you may be aware, I also. represent the Congo, which is.

now being horribly. invaded by Rwanda. And I've always wondered why the. United States didn't take a stronger. position there. You know, we can't. we have destabilized Africa, the entirety of Africa, with this war. And we have not addressed the. fact that so much of our future. is tied up in Africa. Yet the entire continent. is being completely. destroyed. Talk to people in Zambia.

or some of these other countries who. can't get food because. the costs are now so high. We need to look at this struggle. in a far broader sense, because. Ukraine is a huge prison for. fertilizer. And basic. exports. Yes, absolutely. So geopolitically, the. Europeans have only one thing in. their mind, which is, you know, they don't want to see another. Munich. And, you know, my argument. is this isn't Munich. It's Potsdam. We are we we.

we have there's been a three. year war, hasn't gone. all that well. And we need to have a geopolitical. understanding of of where. we are and what is in. not only America's interest but the. world's interests. And Ukraine has to have a. generation to survive and grow. Well, exactly. So, you know, but all of that is beyond. my mandate, which is to. try to save the Orthodox.

the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, so that it can survive. for another thousand years. Well, it's it's just interesting, though. Well, I'm just asking those. questions because I know that you. represent clients in a bunch of. different countries and have for. almost 50 years and you travel a. lot. But it does seem like this is part. of the cost of a world, the West. And this is not true in the East, by. the way, but in the West, the only. history people know is kind of a. half baked, you know, kind of a. Twitter version of World War two. And everything is through the same. lens. And it's like, this.

isn't Munich. Actually, as you point out, and. maybe ignorance is part people. are very inflexible in their minds. Like, you know, it's funny, as a. young boy, I went to Moscow. at that point, sort of. a pseudo communist sympathizer. as a very young man. And I remember being taken. I could not attend any city. without first being taken to. the war cemetery. Right. We never talk about 27. million Russian dead.

My family would never have survived. without Russian troops. And yes, they they visited. horrible times on Eastern. Europe. Totally true. But that sacrifice. saved us. And when we dehumanize. them where. we are, in a way dehumanizing. ourselves, and.

it should never be the policy of our. government to. allow any other foreign state. to so contaminate. our narrative in our discussions. And, you know, quite frankly. It's too late. Yes, but but, you know, even. in terms of using the. International Criminal Court. the way the way they have. where the court has. gone to such incredible. lengths with. respect to this case,

again, I'm not in any. way denying Russian war. crimes. I'm simply saying that there's a. difference between punishing. wrongdoers and dehumanizing. a nation and a people. And we have allowed. this to get into. a horrific. attack on the people with. the sanctions and all of that. That isn't American and it's. not who we are. And we need to stop.

Have there been any media outlets at. all globally? Let's just stick to the United. States and Great Britain, English. speaking media, who've been willing to give you a. fair hearing. I would say. in general, no. We managed to get one. op ed from one of our priests. in the Times of London, which. I am deeply grateful. We managed to get a couple of. stories in The Telegraph.

Nothing in The Guardian. The Wall Street Journal is. completely cut off from us. And I would say reality. Wall Street Journal is completely. cut off from reality. The Wall. Street Journal is actually every bit. as dishonest as the New York Times. in my read, but much. stealthier about it. And it has this kind of. unbreakable. relationship with late middle. age right wingers that, you know, it uses to spew. lies and stupidity and propaganda. Well, there's one editorial.

writer who interviewed me. about the church when I was in Kiev, and I had some hope, but then wrote a crazy story. denouncing. me and the church, which we. met. See you. Yeah. Yeah. Which we managed to. we managed, I think, at the end of. many rewrites to. get her editorial only. We moved it from terrible to. very bad. Who was this? I can't even remember. her name. Some lady writer at the.

Yeah, but. But who's written. consistently pro-Ukrainian pieces. And one of the things. So, like, how dare you defend a. church's right to exist? Exactly. No, but one of the things. about the Ukraine beat. is it's very often. the same people saying. the same things just with. different background music. Again and again, in a very. propagandistic way, avoiding the hard truths. I mean, these these. these press gangs that are grabbing.

young men and taking them to the. front get. Show little coverage. The the fighting inside. the presidential administration. that we know exists gets so little. covered. Some have reached out to me. So it's pretty clear that. is lansky's in charge. But is he really? You referred a. couple of times to Andre Yermak. Yes, he was that. He is the. capo, Jacopo. I mean, he is he. is the guy that. arranges the theft of assets.

He is the guy who. organizes. a lot of the activities of the. SPU to go after. opponents and go after assets. It's my privilege to to represent. a gentleman named Redeemed. of Penske. They they. took his assets. which involved gas. because his crime is supporting. the church. He's he's a very high level.

archdeacon in the church. and has financially supported. the church and. by the way was sanctioned by. Russia. Yet he's charged with treason. Why? Because he supports Ukraine's. historic church, mother. Church, the majority church of the. court. What's amazing about them illegally. taking his assets is they. didn't deploy them for the benefit. of Ukraine. They were gas wells and. they shut them. And when his own people said. to these these gangsters,

you know, run the wells, you're destroying the wealth of the. country. They didn't. And so, you know, they briefly. gave the licenses back. Then they took it back again for. political reasons because. they charged him with treason. But they don't care. It reminds me of my my. first day. as part a privilege to be part of a. major legal team in Moscow.

in 2003. And my my the lead. counsel, the Russian lawyer. was a very famous Russian. lawyer, brilliant, brilliant man. named Padma. And I said to him, because the. Russian stock market had gone down. 50% after they attacked. my client at that time. I said to him, well, surely, surely Mr. Putin will understand. that this can't go on. He took a newspaper.

He hit me over the head. and he said, Don't ever. say anything that stupid again. They will say, this is Moscow. They will steal the very desk. in this court and they'll keep. stealing. The corruption in Ukraine. is as ingrained as it is. in Moscow. The secret police in. Ukraine are using. old KGB texts. to jail my priests.

They are charging them with psycho. linguistic crimes. What's that? This is out of 1984. psycho linguistics. This is basically. alleging that what they're saying. has meanings similar. to what Putin says and. therefore it's a crime. People are being jailed away. from their families. For Psycho linguist Linguistics.

under Article 161. of the Ukrainian Criminal Code. for essentially. division. causing division religious division. Now the o. C U. Members or those. working for them with swastikas on. their arms don't get charged. But our church, our folks get. charged routinely. The Novitskiy is charged. with psycho linguistic crimes. His entire life has been disrupted.

His assets stripped. from him. Horrific things said about. him because when he was a. member of the Rada, so therefore privileged. communications occurred, he. had some disagreements. with the government of the day. They are using Soviet. tanks to go after. their own political opponents. And Zelensky, this man that. has been virtually treated as a.

saint by the Europeans, is using the spew. in a manner no different. than how Russian leaders have used. the FSB or the KGB. No different. Including the arrest and. beating of priests. And our papers say nothing. It is it is just a you. You, by the way, sure are. the only one, especially here, heroically.

That first interview. That first interview changed. and saved and delayed. the passage of this law till. now. And I will be forever in your. debt for doing it. You've told us something that I. didn't realize, which is that the US. government established a fake state. church in a foreign country, which. is obviously unconstitutional, but. also Soviet. I've also nurses other trend. which I don't really understand, but. it seems equally bad, which is. to try and change the culture. of the Slavic country.

So other countries are traditional. They believe in gender roles, for. example, and there does. seem to have been and continue to be. this effort from the US State. Department and maybe others in the. US government to kind of change the. way Ukrainian society. is ordered. Have you noticed this? Yes. I mean, I you. know, as I've said, I had the privilege of listening. to. Robert Destro, a former, I think deputy secretary.

in charge of human rights, talk. about some of. what he saw going on, funding for atheist groups, funding. for. Funding for atheist. Group funding for atheist troops. And that's the whole story right. there. Yeah, funding for. all sorts of of groups. that that. certainly you could. wonder if this is in. the interest of the United States. I mean, I have nothing against. atheists. I don't know why we.

would necessarily feel it was. incumbent upon us to fund. them. But. there there is there's. there's an excellent book. written like. That's actually, if you think about. it, outrageous. The whole pretext for this is Russia. stages illegal unprovoked invasion. three years ago. So we have to. defend Ukraine from Russia. Okay. At least that makes a kind of sense. True or not. But why would you want to change the. religious beliefs of Ukrainians or. the family structure of Ukrainians? Like, well, what is their their. argument in terms of my church.

has been, well, your. church has some relationship. to Russia. So they they continue to make the. argument, even though we believe. we've just proven it, that. there is no link. Our link is canonical. It's through, if you will, the book. And our government cannot. control canon law. that that is surely outside the. purview of of. So anyway same argument that that. a lot of Arab countries made in. during the Suez crisis in 56. They had huge Jewish populations and.

a lot of these you know Morocco and. Algeria you know thousand. year old multi-thousand year old. Jewish populations. And they're like, let's see, you're. Jewish. The Jews in this other country, Israel did something we don't like, therefore we're blaming you or. kicking you. Well, it's not. that because you've got the same. book that's not a canonical. connection. That's that's the logic. And and this. is being. done very. scientifically. in, in a in a very.

I would have to say. it's almost a crazed. psychosis going on because you. have these ultra. right. Folks in Ukraine. basically. Now some of the churches. have taken Maidan, the locus of the 2014. events, and set up shrines. in the OCU churches. to Maidan.

So they've even. changed the religion. itself. To conform to. Ukrainian nationalism. So they're basically worshiping a. CIA coup? Yeah. I mean, it's an icon. that they're they're exchanging. icons. So you're talking. So this is a state religion you're. describing? Yeah. No, no, it is. And and what I what. I want to I want to be clear. that there was a desire. for this within Ukraine.

for 100 years because. there's this view and I think it's. a true view that that. Russia had engaged in Russia, fication, sort of depriving. Ukraine of its culture. Right. Which we agree with. But our church. certainly does not make any demands. about stopping anybody from. praying in any way they want. We are simply saying, don't. steal our churches, don't jail. our priests and don't.

destroy the religion. And, you know, we have experts, Dr. Bremmer, from I think. one of the German Catholic. universities has spoken out. His Holiness, the pope has. spoken out. The U.N. has spoken out. The U.S. mission to the AU is she. has spoken out. Human Rights Watch did a special. report about our church. and what's going on. This isn't just me now. When you first had me on,

it was just me. Now it's the Church of England. So we have an entire world. condemning the Ukrainian government. And the only people defending. it are their friends. in Washington. It's so shameful and. disgusting. So but we're clearly. at an inflection point because, as. you have said, the vice president. states just gave the speech, the. Munich Security conference, the biggest speech given in Europe. in a while. I think it was fair to. say in which.

he advanced kind of reset the terms. of the relationship. And so if your. Zelensky, the. bottom line is you're no longer in. control of Washington. So where does that leave Zelensky? You know. Listen, I you know, the information. I got this morning. is it's left him very. angry, very addled. and working to sort of. form a coalition of European. leaders around him. Why does he think he gets he has.

like a moral right to run the US. government. It's pretty cheeky, I'd. say. Well, he seems to think he has a. moral right to run the European. government. Yeah. And I will tell. you, from trying to interact with. the EU, he's right. He's. He's running it. I mean, these people in the EU. won't talk to me. And if they talk to me, they won't. listen. I mean, it's incredible. He has them completely wrapped. I mean, I've he doesn't have. Orban wrapped, but he has.

Well, the Ukrainian government took. U.S. tax dollars for trying to. overthrow Orban, maybe to kill them. You know, a show, that's a fact. So that itself, you. know, Hungary is in Nieto. So you can't one naito power cannot. attack another naito power like what. is This whole thing has just. scrambled the eggs of the world. Yeah, I have no knowledge of that. All I can say is that that. the information we've gotten. is that the, the meeting that took place and.

the reestablishment of. more normalized relations between. the United States and Russia. leading to some discussion. has been. there's been a horrible reaction. within the presidential. administration. And we fear that. this will cause. further repression of the church. Can. Linsky With. you know, we can debate with his. actual approval rating is but I mean.

I would bet my house not over 50. Can he hang on? Look, I'd bet my house. it's not over 20. I have no idea. Because when you have the secret. police, you've. got power. So I don't you know, I can't answer. that question. I can just say that. if you're an opponent of Zelensky, this is a moment of fear, because he is. clearly doubling down on.

the repression. And anyone, as opposed. to Zelensky, should be in fear. because he is he is a man. that that is a dictator. I mean, however you want to phrase. it, that's who he is. He is running a police state. Our friends don't want to say. that. But that's the that's. the reality of Ukraine today. What's the other word for it? I can't think of one. I, I can't either. But you never you never see that in. any newspaper in the West.

So that really bothers me. Look, there are tons of dictatorships. around the world. But the West is supposed to be. this beacon of freedom and. enlightenment, respecter of human. rights, etc., etc.. What does it tell you as an. American, as a product of. the West, that all of our. big institutions seem to like the. Zelenskyy dictatorship? They like it. They I've confronted a. bunch of people. You think it's okay. to be in a church? Well, that church is pro-Russia. Okay. Well, you say it's not. pro-Russian. I don't care if it is.

You can't ban other people's. religions, period. I don't care how much you just like. them. I don't care if it's Scientology. or Kabbalah. It doesn't matter. Hinduism doesn't. matter. You can't be under people's. religions. And yet I don't know. anyone who's bothered by it in. high position in the West. So what does it tell you about the. people in high positions in the. West? Well, it means. that we have become disconnected. from, in reality who. we are and who we're supposed to be. Yeah. Well, and the diplomatic. way of putting it. Yeah. Yeah. And it does not.

bode well for our future. as a country. That's exactly it. And that's what's frightening to me. You feel that? Yes, I feel that. I feel it's it's. it's it's shocking. to me. how alienated. I am representing this church. because I'm not accepting. the the narrative that's been. accepted by others. And so my firm, myself, we are paying a terrible.

price, not nearly. as bad as our client who. faces physical violence. and the destruction of their. religion. But there is there. is no courtroom being given. to. disputing what's going on. This guy has he has seemed to. have a complete lock. on our institutions. on on Washington now. We just spoke at the conference.

We weren't able to speak a year ago. Maybe that's a good sign. We're going to try to go back on the. Hill. I was there a few weeks ago. No member would meet us, but. that could have just been the. transition. We're going to go back and try. again. But. It really is. The Zelensky effect is. something that needs to be studied. because it's incredibly unhealthy. for us. Number one, as a democracy.

Number two, in terms of. our geopolitical reckoning. That's right. Who we are in the. world has to be reassessed. And I listen, I'm actually a Canadian and British. lawyer, although I have a master's. in American law. I don't practice. here. And of course, now that I'm a. Canadian, we could be at. war even though I'm an American. as well. We we'll just be a state. Yeah, exactly. That'll be okay. But I will say. that that.

what this presidency is doing. is with God's help opening up, opening up our eyes to what's. been going on. That's right. And I have to say. that as a lawyer, I am deeply. in awe. Firstly, you. have to hand it to President Trump. stamina like I've never seen in. ten human beings. Unbelievable. Secondly, you have to. accept that the Justice.

Department was weaponized. Whoever you are as a lawyer. in this country, there is no. doubt that the weaponization that. took place under the Democrats. was severe. I have a lot of issues with. what happened regarding January 6th. I'm going to have a lot of issues. with what's going on at the Justice. Department and the FBI. But I will say, do not. say it is this president. who has politicized.

the DOJ. This is a systemic problem. that has been horrifically. exploded during the last. Democratic presidency. So so last question. I'm not going to ask you what year. you graduated law school, but thank. you. But awhile ago, you said you've been practicing for. over 40 years. When you graduated law school, I bet. there were a ton of people with your. attitudes in your class, somewhat. similar attitudes about. human rights, rule of law, politics,

America's place in the world. Now you're literally the only one. left that I've met. from your generation. What's it been like for you. with, like, your friends, your. court, your peers? People you know, have known your. whole life. You come back and all of. a sudden, you know, you're being. denounced as a Russian stooge. Like, what effect is that had? Well, it it's interesting. I, I said. 20 years ago that. there was a there was a terrible.

danger in the United. States to the. corporatism of criminal law. Yes. We we have we. have turned criminal law. into the activity of big. corporate law firms. In New York. Even today, there are a bunch. of small firms. that take on. difficult cases.

Brafman Magnify low. Some of these guys in small firms. taking on tough, tough, tough cases. that I think of as as. real, you know, defenders. But. The corporate titans. that are doing the big cases. have become entirely. focused on compliance. You're somebody, I'm sure, with with. far more resources than a poor guy.

like myself. But if you engage in transnational. business, you know the. hassles of even moving $10. across borders. These corporate law firms are. making tens of. millions off of managing. compliance because. of and this is a separate story. In my view, this this. overregulation. Money laundering allegations, money laundering is the most. dangerous crime governments have.

ever invented. Because because it. basically criminalizes. activity that very. many people never knew was criminal. And you could be charged with money. laundering if you've engaged. in asset or money transfers. when you had no idea at the time. that it was criminal. They don't care about rape on a. subway platform, and if they did, we wouldn't have it in a lot of. countries don't have responsibly. platforms because that's horrifying. It's a violation of the most basic.

violation of someone's civil rights. They what they care about is money. laundering. I noticed I just read. today DOJ was, you know, issuing. some statement on money laundering. every day. It's money laundering. It's because people. using their money that they earned. in ways that they choose. to use it, that's a massive. threat to the people in power. Yes, it is. And again, another day. I'll tell you about my use of. human rights law to stop. the freezing of assets and freezing. of monies that.

this this compliance psychology. is a tremendous danger. that we foster in our big firms. And that is, you know, so if you ask me after 45. years, how do you feel? It is a sense of. tragedy that. our basic rights. have been withered away. in in so many events. of emergency. Whenever I hear emergency.

or crisis, whether it's. Covid, the war on terror, the war on crime, these are all events that chip. away at our freedoms. And they're cumulative. They go on and on, and they. further narrow the scope. for our activity. And we need a dramatic rethink. of all of that in. order for us to be free. So when you were a kid, when you're. a young lawyer, when you're in law. school, Brandenburg versus Ohio, the big speech cases,

those were all very well known, right? Do everybody in your class, do you think someone graduating Yale. Law now has any real sense. of that? You know, I'm giving. a speech Friday to over 60. top law. students. I'll know better after that. I think that, unfortunately, we're. raising lawyers. to fit in to these corporate firms, this this whole sort of.

compliance culture. And, you know, I'm probably. God help me, probably one of the. only lawyers that will. applaud the Trump administration. for stopping FCPA enforcement. I'm just not that I'm in support of. corruption. And it's not that I think we. shouldn't come up with a system to. stop it. It's that the FCPA. has represented a massive. commercial barrier for. American business to enter.

Latin America and Africa. We need to be in those places. And now maybe we'll have a shot. because the compliance barrier. simply made it only possible. for some of our largest businesses. Well, that's the whole point. Yes. That was all when a Dodd-Frank. Yes. Like, you know, and all the. small guys die when the big guys can. pay enough lawyers to stay within. the law or the regs. Yeah, that's right. Bobby Amsterdam. I'm grateful for what you're doing. and I'm grateful that you exist.

And when liberals like you went. extinct, everyone made fun of people. like you because they're annoying. And I was jumping up and yelling. about rights, but I was one of the. only people who felt sad when your. whole way of thinking died. Because I feel like we really needed. that. And turns out I was right. Well, thank you again.