Why Trying to Fix Your Life Is Making It Worse

you you've probably written for me. personally, I think for many people, but. for me personally, one of the most um. influential and important books of my. life. So, thank you. >> Oh, I'm so glad to hear it. What book is. that? >> 4,000 Weeks changed my entire life. >> Um, slightly blows my mind, but I. >> changed my entire. life on this planet. >> How and why?

This is What now with Trevor Noah? >> What a New Zealand has um they have a. bed section in the back of the plane. now. Six bunk beds. >> All right. with like a full mattress. closes off where you sleep total. darkness.

>> and you go and sleep in that pod for. like 4 hours and you just book it. >> I think it's a great idea. >> I think so. Yeah. >> So, >> you don't think so? >> My issue is. >> any passenger who's at economy. going up there and sleeping for 4 hours. One. >> I know that passengers at economy like. taking advantage of situations. I've. seen how they abuse the drinks. >> I like how you say Irish coffee didn't. fly economy your whole life. >> My man, this guy making it seem like you.

making it seem if I was to aortion your. flights. >> Yeah. >> as a pie chart. >> Yeah. >> The portion of your life that's business. class and the portion that's econ you. We wouldn't even see the slither of. business class. >> And that's enough for me. >> It's enough for me. >> I like how you say they, not us. It's. enough for me to know because I've seen. flight attendants coming to gossip about. economy class passengers at business. class. >> Damn. But when you're next to the when.

you're at the galley when you have the. seat next to the galley, you you hear. them complaining about. >> Yeah, they do. >> Six Irish coffees. I mean, really, >> but why is the bed going to be any more. or less gross than the seat? >> I'm glad you asked that question because. they like taking advantage of. situations. It's going to 4 hours is. going to be done. They're going to ask. passenger, whoever to move. Oliver is. not going to want to move because he's. having such a good time. And what law. enforcement do we have up in the sky, Oliver? >> Well, officially those those cabin crew. are basically have the powers of the.

police, don't they? >> Doesn't every flight doesn't every. flight also have an air marshal? >> No, I think that's a myth. >> Okay. Air story. >> I don't think it's still a thing, but. Oh, maybe. I think it is. >> I think that air marshall story is us. policing ourselves. >> You don't think there's an air marshal? >> I don't think there isn't any. >> All you need is for someone to think. there is if they're thinking about. hijacking the plane. How many videos. have you seen of people fighting inside. a plane? >> Yeah, but that has nothing to do with. the air marshall. >> Oh, you must What is he there for? Hijacking. >> Yes, for big. >> What if the fight is a diversion? >> What if the fight happening at row 17a.

>> is giving space for people from row 16. upwards to go and do that's why he. doesn't get involved in the fight. >> cuz it might be a diversion. >> H. >> that's the exact reason. >> You seem to have too much. >> When you woke up this morning, do you. think you'd be engaged in the. conversation about. uh cabins and beds on planes. No, no. When I did that flight from I got so I. was it was economy. It was years ago and. I gone to do book festivals in Australia. and they flew me but they flew me on. their terms which was economy and by the.

time I got to LA I was so sleepd. deprived that I. >> I basically had some kind of like. neurological issue in the plane like. things happened cuz I was so tired. >> Yeah. Your your body completely like it. shuts down. and you forget who you're. talking to, why you're talking to them. Um, I wouldn't I wouldn't recommend it. to anyone, especially that flying that. way, by the way, the time zone. >> That switch is maybe the hardest thing. I've ever done. I flew from Australia to. Hawaii. Ah, it was a blur. >> Really? >> Yeah. That jet lag like oppressive jet.

lag. >> Your body is just like, I don't know. what happened here, man. This is This. doesn't seem right. >> So, not being in economy didn't help. much. >> No, bro. We got the whole day back and. it didn't cuz you remember when you. >> Yeah. International Dayline. >> The date line. You you go back that way. and then Where are you based now, by the. way? >> Uh the UK. >> You are in the UK. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> All right. It's funny when you read. someone's books, you don't assume they. have an accent. >> Yeah. Cuz you're reading it in your own. voice. >> I'm reading it in my voice. I've just. realized now I read your books in my. voice.

>> Well, I certainly don't have the same. accent as you. >> Yeah. >> Um. >> that's what Sorry about that. >> That's No, you don't have to be sorry. It's just like I had this like in my. head. >> you sounded like me. >> and now I'm like wait where you from. >> It's like an interesting you also. because you you you've probably written. >> for me personally I think for many. people but for me personally one of the. most um influential and important books. of my life. So thank you. >> Oh I'm so glad to hear it. What book is.

that? >> 4,000 Weeks changed my entire life. um. slightly blows my mind, but I. >> changed my entire. >> life on this planet. >> How and why? >> So, I don't even know how I came across. 4,000 weeks. I don't know if anyone. recommended. I genuinely don't know. All. I know is I started reading this book. and the very beginning of the book. breaks down the premise and you'll. forgive me if I butcher anything because. you are the author. >> in your own voice. >> But the uh the the the the book starts.

to break down our existence on this. planet and basically goes if you are. lucky you have 4,000 weeks if you're. lucky. >> Yeah. If you're lucky you have the. average 4,000 weeks to live your life, right? >> Mhm. And when you think of it that way, you know, when we think of like decades, years, oh, 90 years, 80 years, all of. these things. >> longer. >> Yeah. We we also think of our time as. just being sort of infinite. >> When you break it down into 4,000 weeks, you go, "Huh, how many summers, how many. winters, >> how many Christmases,

>> how many birthdays?" And then you start. thinking about how you actually think of. the value of your time. And the reason. this book changed my life is because. your book was one of the first books. that challenged the premise that I think. a lot of like self-helpy slash you know. like popular non-fiction books have come. out with over the past few years and. that is that like you know your time is. money you got to make it while hey while. the sun shines you got to get out there. come on bam bam if you're not doing it. then you're not doing it sleep and then.

this book came out I was like yo bro the. biggest part for me that changed my life. was it was like you are always going to. be missing something. Just choose what. you miss. H. that was literally it. And I was like, "Wait, wait, what?" And it was like, "Yeah." And the greatest thing you can. do is know that you're going to miss it. >> Mhm. >> Choose to miss it. >> Cut a whole swath of things out and then. you're done when you're making. decisions. >> Yeah. >> You know, people go like, "I I I don't.

want to get married cuz I want to find. the right person." Then they spend their. whole lives looking for the right person. and never get married. Then I genuinely. I it sounds so obvious now. >> but it's only because I've read your. book that I. that I thought like how did you even how. did you stumble into that world? Like I. mean all your books are about thinking. and living but like what's your what's. your background? >> I trained as a journalist so I worked at. the Guardian for a bunch of years. university. Glad to hear it. >> Yep. Subscribe to the Guardian. >> Good. Yeah. Good. Um yeah and I guess I.

one of the things that well one of the. things that taught me is like it got me. over a certain kind of perfectionism in. writing right because on deadline driven. work like that you you just got to write. the story when you got to write the. story. Uh but it also brought me I guess. right into confrontation with that idea. of how much time there is and how much. time there isn't because you are. constantly trying to. >> you know how do I do all the things I'm. supposed to do in this job to please my. bosses but also I got to make time to. >> like advance my career in some other.

ways and anyway shouldn't I be having. friends and a relationship right so. suddenly you're sort of uh all of that. stuff is is on the agenda but I'm. totally using all the books I write as. kind of like my own therapy as well. right so the reason that I was able to. write this stuff is not because I found. it totally troublefree but because it. was like a big struggle. >> It was the thing that was struggling. >> Right. Right. I think I spent a lot of. my sort of earliest adulthood thinking. one day I was going to get the. combination of productivity systems and. self-discipline and daily routines that.

was just going to nail everything and. then it would just be like set it and. forget it, you know, plain sailing for. the rest of life. >> My problem is that's what they will sell. you. Every second video on YouTube is. here's how you optimize your life. Here's the perfect morning routine. Here's how you figure out your week. Wake up 5:00 a.m. stretch. Do some. jumping jacks. Lymphatic drainage. Get. outside. See the sun. Make your. breakfast. Smoothie shake. Go for you. It's like it's it's it's so perfect and. it's so precise. >> that you constantly feel like you're.

failing if you aren't able to hit those. beats every single time. >> Yeah. Yeah. And it and the other thing. it does um in my experience anyway is. that it it makes you kind of live in the. future the whole time, right? Because. you're always just thinking I'm going to. get there soon. Right now I'm a total. mess, but what I'm working on is. becoming like a viable human being 6. months, six years from now. And so the. meaning of life is always is always in. the future, right? You're never actually. fully present. >> in your own experience. And then, you. know, having a kid was another big.

reminder of this stuff because that's a. whole different layer of uh lack of. control over your time and limited. limits to your time and all that stuff. >> Of your sleep, of your money, of your. urgency, of your of your control and how. you can keep them healthy and alive. >> Yeah, exactly. No, and it's all about. control, I think, at the end. Accepting. the limitations. >> of your control, which uh yeah, I don't. find easy at all, but hopefully my not. finding it easy um you know, is useful. for other people. if you were to cuz I. mean I'll do a terrible job because I. because I I love it and I remember the.

pieces but like if you were to break. down the ethos of 4,000 weeks to. somebody, you know, you go like, "Hey, I. can only speak to them for one minute. and I'm trying to explain the the. philosophy behind it." How would you. break it down as the author? >> I guess I would say we have really. limited time on the planet. We have. really limited control over how that. time unfolds. And that's just a fact. That's not like I think you should live. this way or that way. That's just the. truth. Yeah. >> And I think a lot of our problems with. time, as I go through in the book,

procrastination, distraction, feeling. like you're doing the wrong things, life. is meaningless, whatever, often come. from not taking account of those. limitations and trying to constantly get. like out from under them or on top of. them. And if you instead sort of fall. back into them and embrace them, it's. not only more relaxing and realistic, I. think it's also more productive and. fulfilling, right? I don't think this is. a book about like doing less. I think. it's a book about doing the right things. and actually being more effective, I. hope, and more kind of making more of an.

impact on the world. So, it's about. embracing instead of constantly trying. to outrun our human limitations. >> Your your book was the reason I um. deleted social media apps regularly. >> So, you the one. >> now my DMs don't get answered. >> And I'm sorry they don't. >> A man, you know how many nice videos I. sent to him? And you know what? I'll go back and I'm. like, "Yo, I've got six to reply to." I. also seem like a loser because I respond. to people at in bulk. I'll be like, "Hah, that's crazy. Wow. Oh no, so dope.

Nice." And then I'm done. >> Then it's congratulations. Oh, sorry for. the divorce. Like just all all of this. >> No, but but so you know what it was? I. think it was the line in the book where. you basically say you talk about I so. this is what I loved. It's how you frame. things. Um Oliver talks about it's not. about not being on social media or not. It's just are you doing what you what. you want to be doing. >> So if you want to scroll on social media. for 12 hours, do it then.

>> If you want to do it, do it then. >> Mhm. >> But if you find yourself going, I can't. believe I spent 12 hours on my phone. today. >> You didn't want to do it. >> Ah. >> Do do you know what I mean? So it wasn't. like a book that like I I never felt. judged. I never felt like like the ideas. in it. Don't judge how you're living. your life. It just reminds you to. actively live your life as opposed to. participate in it occasionally. >> Right? I find that um. because always whenever I'm on social. media, I'm lucky enough that the.

algorithm now, maybe it's not luck, maybe it's me training it, >> shows me what I like. >> Mhm. >> So I don't feel like me being online all. the time is counterproductive. I've. heard people saying they want to switch. off, but I'm like when I'm switched off. as well, sometimes I feel like I've been. switched off for too long. So, I'll sit. at the park and I'll be like, "Yeah, I've sat here for 3 hours now." But I. also have the same satisfaction when I'm. on social media being occupied by what I. want to be occupied by. Does that make. any sense? >> Totally. I I I mean, I think.

increasingly it seems like you're in a. minority if you're someone who feels. like that was what you wanted to do. And. I'm not judging you. >> For me, there was always that mismatch. >> Judge me, Oliver, >> I wouldn't dream. things I've done. >> the the the I think a lot of this and. it's not just social media, right? It's. lots of other stuff. It's about. >> it's not about like don't live your life. this way, live your life that way. It's. more about be conscious about what's. actually happening and what human life. actually is. And then it's often a lot.

easier to make those decisions, right? Because you're sort of making them in. reality instead of in this kind of weird. fantasy world where you might be able to. do everything. I mean, that was always. my problem. I also think it's the um you. know what it's the it's the it's being. okay with failing as well. >> In what way? >> That's probably the biggest thing that. you changed in the way I see the world. Just being like, "Oh, I'm going to fail. at this for a while." I've never I've. never heard anyone sell that as a. concept in in my opinion. Just the idea. of like, okay, so in your life, you have. your friends, your family, yourself,

your work, your you know, your fitness, your home projects that you're working. you've got all these things. >> and then it'll be like, you know, get. your time right, put the pieces. together. >> This was the first book that was like, yo, bro, sometimes you can choose which. areas of your life to be failing in like. actively choose that like I'm going to. fail at work for the next few months. because I want I really want to succeed. at family. >> Right. Right. So, for me, it's seeing. that like the standard of success that. we hold ourselves to. >> is is like doing more things than a.

human can do. It's working 48 hours a. day which don't exist. It's, you know, it's it's being able to answer as many. emails as the world wants to to send. you. So, so actually any kind of. boundary drawing in that situation, any. place where you say this is my focus for. this season and this is not, it's going. to feel like a failure in some way. because the standard of success is like. be omnipotent, >> right? >> Um, but if you decide in advance like. you're saying, right? If you say, "Well, for this season, like I don't know, maybe you're the beginning of a career.

or you've just had a baby or something. and like, okay, this isn't going to be. the season when my all my home. improvement projects get done because. those other things are just going to. take up all the time." Well, then when. you don't get round to the home. improvement projects, you don't feel. like a loser, right? Cuz you made the. decision in advance. You decided that. they were going to turn down that dial. to turn these dials up. Um, >> the worst thing is thinking that you're. going to do all of it and then every. single day is an experience of like how. useless you are. If you choose to lose.

>> All of it. Just explain trying to fight. jet lag. I'M GOING TO THE MALL. >> YO, that feeling will kill you, bro. Yo, that feeling will humble you quick. >> Feeling will humble you quick. I've seen. people with jet leg like you know when. they try and fight it, they'll get. somewhere then they'll be like get. outside. The first thing is you got to. get outside. You got to get moving. You. got to live your day as soon as. possible. Get some coffee in you. Get a. run going. 3:00 p.m.

I just I just need to lie down. I just I. just need to like Oh, yeah. I just. jet lag, my friend. >> Oh. >> Oh, man. Jet lag will humble you. >> So, what like what was it like what was. it about your life that got you down. this path? Because I mean many people. are journalists, have stayed. journalists. Uh even if people switch. into becoming an author, it's like what. they write about is still journalistic.

>> Yeah. >> By its very nature. It it feels like. you're in a world where. it it isn't, how can I put it? It's not. like a fact that you're trying to. research. It's an opinion that you have. on the way, you know, we live our lives. in the world is. >> Yeah. >> That's based around facts. >> Yeah. >> And it makes sense for many people. And. then some people be like, I don't know. if that makes sense for me. and and. that's fine, but like what do you think. clicked in your brain that that got you. thinking like that? >> I guess I've always been really. interested in sort of big ideas stuff. and I think it is quite journalistic, right? Because it's not like I'm saying.

I work in the tradition of Carl Jung or. I work in the tradition or in. neuroscience. It's like I'm just taking. stuff from everywhere like very. journalistically sort of like oh this. philosopher had something that made a. difference to me and this study seems. interesting and haven't you ever noticed. how this always happens on social media? So I'm just trying to sort of So it does. feel in that sense like I'm being a a. reporter in a way. But yeah, I'm. reporting on I guess what it feels like. to to be in the modern world and what we. can sort of how we can reconcile.

ourselves to that and hopefully be happy. and effective and ambitious without. constantly feeling insane. Yeah. >> Do you think you've succeeded? >> Not in any sort of final way. No. Um, but I definitely am sort of I'm way less. anxious um than I used to be. I'm much. more sort of able to take decisions. about how to use my time and not be. tormented by all the emails I'm supposed. to have been answering and and all the. rest of it. So, yeah, I think I'm.

gradually. sinking into reality in a in a positive. fashion. You have to ask my wife really. >> Yeah. Well, that's what I was actually. going to ask you. How many people or how. many jobs or how many opportunities did. you lose by changing your perspective in. life? Well, this is the great thing. about being a finite human, right? You. never know because you can't ever go. back and take the other path and see. what happened. So, I feel like my life. has been um really. great since I started sort of living. into this way of being, but what do I. know? I could have been I I could have.

been 10 times as successful the other. way or 10 times more miserable. Right. Right. And actually, that's part of the. idea, right? One of the things we don't. get to do as people who can only be in. one place at a time and live one life. out of all the million options is see. how it could have been the other the. other way. So it's like regret is this. fascinating emotion where people think. like well it would have been better if. I'd done this or that. But like you just. can't know. And when you really see that. you can't know, I think that's quite.

liberating because it's like all you. ever do in every moment is take what. seems like the best decision in that. moment and then do it again and do it. again. Right? I mean, you're never going. to be able to get to the end of the. finish line and be like, "Ah, I did the. right things cuz this would have. happened if I hadn't done Who knows?". >> I blame lotteryies. >> Oh, I thought you were going to say. Spider-Man the multiverse. >> That too. >> What a relief. Okay, carry on. >> No, I blame I blame lotteryies. You. know, you know why? Because they make us. feel like there was like a right answer. and we could have thought of it and. could have got to it.

>> I don't know how to explain this, but. like I feel like. >> there was there were six. >> Yeah. Yeah. Like I know it sounds. weirdos. I know it sounds weird. >> And you didn't choose them. >> Yeah. >> But you. >> you didn't choose them. They go, "We. chose them.". >> Yeah. >> You, on the other hand, >> they'll show you the person who chose. them. >> You didn't. This was This was your. mistake. >> And then they'll be like, "Look at the. numbers you did get right. Here's the. Here are the numbers you should have. chosen." I almost wish the lottery. didn't tell you the winning numbers. They just like phoned the winner and. that was it. But the rest of us, they. left us guessing, right? >> They just left everybody guessing. Yeah.

And it's just like, uh, the lottery was. won this week. Really? Yeah. What were. the winning numbers? Ah, bro, you don't. need to know that. >> because you Okay, let me ask you this. question. How does it help us? >> No, it doesn't doesn't help us at all. And also, it's like Do you see what I'm. saying? >> No, I do see what you're saying because. the numbers the point to which you. choose your lottery numbers, the numbers. are not known, right? So, there was not. a right answer. There's just moments. unfolding and at one moment you choose. some numbers and at one moment the. people who give out the money choose. some numbers. Yeah, but for the fact.

that they even do a live draw is. actually use cuz they could actually. choose the numbers pre you still would. get them wrong. >> Yeah. The people who run lotteryies are. not out to make your life as good as and. fulfilling as it can possibly be. I. think that's that's that's what we're. learning. >> Yeah. But but do you get what I'm. saying? It's like so so I think those. types of things in life. >> I I know I'm being extreme when I say I. blame it on that, but it's one of those. things where you then think, ah, I made. the wrong choice. But if the lottery never told you about. the numbers cuz the the numbers now.

tells you that there's the there was a. correct answer. The truth is there is no. correct answer to the lottery. It is. just the number that ends up being the. one. So there's no correct one. >> So if they just said somebody won and it. wasn't you obviously. >> then we just keep on moving and they go. we're not going to tell anybody the. numbers but we're just going to. >> but it's a human thing. You need proof. that you were wrong. People never need. proof that they were right. >> Okay. Then they can just do this. Did. you take 13? Then you go no. Yeah. Uh, so leave us. alone.

They can just be like, "Give us your. number. Give us I'll I'll I'll role. play, Oliver. You be the prospective. person like Eugene who um wants to know. why I haven't given you proof and then. uh you're calling in. >> You're the lot office.". >> Yeah, I'm the lotto office. Yeah. >> So, what I'm going to ask like will you. tell me the numbers? >> Yeah. Yeah. So, basically, you want you. want proof. You just want proof because. I I don't tell the numbers. Ring ring. Hello. I need to you to prove that I. didn't win the lottery. >> Oh, hello. Uh, who am I speaking to? >> Uh, my name's Oliver. >> Oh, hello Oliver. Uh, yeah, you didn't.

win. >> All right. >> Yeah, I like Oliver. You go straight to. >> What do I need to know? >> If Oliver didn't believe me if say you. don't believe me. >> How I don't know how to trust you. You. might be. >> Okay, that's a very good question, Oliver. We have many people that Let me. put you through to the non-rusting. department. Bim bam bam bim. Ah, welcome Oliver to. the non-rusting department. Oliver, tell. me one of the numbers you picked. >> Uh, 12. >> Ah, sorry, we don't have 12. Thanks. Thanks for calling. BYE-BYE.

BYE-BYE. I can I tell you you're like this is. what I believe genuinely. I know this is. a brash, crazy statement to make. I. think it is because of all the signals. that we've received in life, whether. it's from other people, whether it's. from institutions, whe there was a. correct, that we constantly feel like we. are incorrect. So, everyone who posts on. their timeline that they found the love. of their life. >> makes you feel like you're incorrect.

>> I hate those people. join the team. Because when they're on the other side. and asking for privacy. >> and respect while they handle their. affairs as they're splitting up their. their divorce, >> then it's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, >> whoa, whoa. Now you want privacy. >> YEAH. >> WHOA, WHOA, WHOA, WHOA, WHOA. YOU WERE. ALL OVER MY TIMELINE writing poems about. how when you find the one for you, you. realize that there's a half of you that. never existed. And in that you're and.

then now you want privacy but you were. very quick to basically tell me that. there was a correct answer. >> Mhm. >> Your person. >> now in the divorce why you not saying. that that's the correct answer. So I. don't have a problem with people falling. in love or saying they found the right. person or but what I'm saying is when. the world constantly feels like people. are finding the answer and you are not. I think it can make you feel more. depressed and more like a loser like you. were saying. >> Oh yeah. And it's also because like you. have access to your own internal.

monologue of self-doubt and. self-criticism. You don't have access to. anybody else's. Right. So it looks from. the outside. >> You only hear the highlights or the or. the low lights. >> You just made me think of a genius idea. We start a new social media app. >> Shoot. >> Right. Right. >> Is it going to be on the phone? >> Yeah. >> Smartphone. >> Yeah. It'll it'll be full on. >> Okay. >> But it's going to be Are you going to. have it? >> Yeah, I'll have it. I'll do what I do. now. I'll delete it. I'm just checking. all of every few weeks and I'll But. check this out. Okay. It's going to be. like Instagram, >> right? But what we're going to do is.

>> whenever someone posts, they must post. the picture, >> but then they have to post all their. doubts and fears that were happening in. and around that picture in that moment. But you can't see it instantly. So, you. got to go like, "Wow, what a beautiful. picture in the Maldes.". >> And then they got to post and be like, "Man, my financial wos have really been. crippling me." And I'll be honest, I. don't know if I could afford this trip. And. >> but who can see that? >> You only. >> No, whoever. Whoever's seen the picture. >> Okay. Okay. Not the person that they are. with on the picture, obviously. >> So, it kind of blocks you like Tinder. does.

>> You and your wife are on Tinder at the. same time in the same house, but you. guys will never match each other. >> I actually like this idea. >> How does Tinder do that? >> It's a good question, actually. >> It's a proximity. >> It probably is like an IP based type. thing. >> Yeah, because couples have been on. Tinder. >> in the same house, but they've never. matched. >> That's weird. >> What's weird is that they're both on. Tinder. Yeah, >> that's the weirdest part. Yeah, but you get what I'm saying. Just. just because what you said is so. valuable. >> We always know.

>> the realities and the cracks behind the. facade, >> right? >> We don't portray that, >> right? >> So, when people have you ever. complimented somebody on their outfit. and been shocked at how doubtful they. are about it? You'll be like, "Damn, you. really this is a great outfit." And. they'll be like, "Oh, thank you. >> You know, I wasn't sure about these. shoes." And then you're like, "Oh, I had. this assumption of you as a human being. that you had everything put together and. everything was perfect. You're now. revealing to me that behind this facade. >> was a whole lot of not sureesseness and. nothing that doesn't take away from how. you look.

>> But had I not said anything to you and. had you not been honest back with me, I. would have thought that dressing well. comes with like 100% clarity and. confidence that you've made the right. choice.". >> Right. Right. And the crazy part I. actually get at this in the other book. is that kind of revealing that kind of. insecurity and vulnerability is. humanizing, right? You feel you feel. closer to that person. We're going. through our lives trying to put out. these facads and say like we just know. exactly what we're doing. The moment. somebody says, "I don't necessarily know. what I'm doing." You feel so much. connection to them. Like you feel like.

fellow feeling because you know that. inside you don't really know. I don't. really know what I'm doing. >> I think we all know what we're doing. Yeah. >> Mhm. You know what I've realized? We. trust people more as well. >> Think about how many times you and I. have sat with an expert here. >> The the craziest thing, the higher the. level of expertise, the more doubt we've. seen in people. >> Mhm. >> We've met everyone, you know, biochemists, you know, astrophysicists, you you name. it.

They have doubt. You'll go, "What about. this?" They're like, "Oh, well, we don't. know." And actually sometimes I wonder. I'll be honest with you. I'm not sure. And. >> and you're like, "Well, but you're. you're the foremost expert." And you. realize with expertise comes a humility. and an acknowledgement that you don't. really know anything because you start. knowing how much you don't know. >> Absolutely. Yeah. >> You you get what I'm saying? >> But then as like like average people, we. know everything. >> But I think it comes with growing up. The older you get, the more you realize. that um moderation and awareness go hand.

in hand. So you know that your time is. limited, things that you can do and your. emotional capacity for things is also. very limited. >> But the awareness is always a helpful. thing to help you realize that the the. path you didn't choose was maybe not. good for you or good for you. >> For example, like relationships New York. will expose to you or is exposed to me. really. >> when in life you really need. partnership. >> I've seen kids being taken to school. that I'm like they need this person to. take them there. Then you've seen people.

between their 20s and their 40s in. relationships, but within that spectrum. as well, they're in different kind of. relationships. So the younger ones are. holding hands, being more affectionate, then the much older ones in their 40s. and their 50s, they're more comfortable. with each other. And then you see. >> maybe people in their 60s and 70s who. either don't have a partner or have one. and their interaction with that partner. is very different. So if you're 20some. trying to figure out what do you need in. your life, this is the best place to. look at because you'll see different.

people in different stages of their. lives interacting differently in. relationships. >> Mhm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> This is what I love about you. So I. haven't I haven't read this one. >> about me. >> No meditations for I thought you were. complimenting me. See how I doubted. myself. >> No, but I love you as a person. You know. this. >> Thank you. See how my self-esteem. >> Wait, did this come up before after. after? Oh, I didn't see this. Why. doesn't it recommend Well, you know, recommendations. They recommend random. things to me. >> Like, >> bro, I have the most random. recommendations. >> Tell us more, Trevor. >> Bro, I will actually show you my. recommendations. You be like, what is.

what is going on here? No. Haven't you. ever had this where like even your. Netflix won't tell you to watch the new. season of a show you're already. watching? >> Right. Right. >> Then you're like, I don't I don't watch. Love Island. >> Yes. Because it knows you're not. expanding. You You're focusing on one. thing too much. >> It wants you to get out. >> Your best interests are moderation. It. it understands that you've watched. enough serial killer shows. >> I don't watch those shows. I don't watch. those shows, bro. >> You don't? >> I don't. You watch those shows. >> Oh man, I love a mind of a ser those.

people. >> Listen to this guy. >> They've you know to choose that today is. the last day for this person. >> and I'm going to make a day out of it as. well. You're too excited by this. >> He really is. No, but this is like I'm so I'm I'm. skimming through this. This is what I. love about your writing. You see, like. to have a chapter like this, >> this is a book that's going to encourage. you in life. >> Yeah. >> Day one, it's worse than you think. >> just like like just the idea of like. Yeah. on the liberation of defeat,

>> right? >> What does that even mean? Like or or. rather why would you choose that to be. the starting off point to help somebody. feel better about their lives? >> I'll try to explain. I did I did want to. sort of bring people down to earth with. a bump because then you can get started, right? If you're waiting the whole book. to like bring them down to a bumpet, >> I don't think it works. >> You're my kind of guy. All of that. >> I'm glad to hear it. The the way I was, what the idea I'm trying to get at there. is that a lot of the ways that we stress. ourselves out in life come from not.

quite taking seriously enough the. problems that we have. So, a really. simple example that I start with there. is like if you feel like you've got a a. really terrible to-do list, you got so. many things to do. Yeah. >> It's going to take. >> all your time and effort and discipline. to get through it. it's really going to. dominate your life to get through all. these things, then life becomes a real. slog, right? Because you're trying to. get to this point where you're through. the list. But if you realize that it's. worse than that, because there'll. actually always be too much to do. because the space of things you feel. like you need to do is always going to.

be bigger than your time and your. abilities. So, you're going to die with a long. to-do list of things you haven't. finished. Well, that's a lot more. liberating because then it's like, oh, well, it can't be my job to get to the. end of this to-do list. It must just be. my job to do a bunch of the things on it. that feel important, right? Because. you're not It's that feeling that you. might be able to get to the point where. you're on top of absolutely everything. that is tormenting you, not the fact. that you won't get there. Does that make. sense? >> It makes complete sense. You you.

basically. you've basically come in with it's. almost like people are running a race. like a 100 meter sprint and they run in. their like local municipality or town. and they're coming fourth and they're. like a man I just need to get to first. and you're stepping in going you're the. fourth slowest person or fourth fastest. person in your town but in the world you. are rubbish. You are absolutely trash. So stop stressing yourself about like. actually getting faster because even.

when you get to first in your town, >> you're still going to be the slowest. person probably in this country. So just. like. >> this is what I mean. This is liberation. >> Yeah. I don't love the implication in. that analogy that like that there is. someone who can do it perfectly, right? Cuz I want to say I want to say we're. all in the same boat ultimately with. being finite. But no, still it holds, right? It's like the once you realize. that something that you're trying to do. is not really really difficult but is. impossible, you're freed up to do loads.

of really important, bold, cool things. with your life. >> How do we find the balance between that. and a complete apathy for life? >> Cuz some people sort of have this. attitude, but they go like, well, it. doesn't matter anyway. Nothing can be. perfect. Nothing can be good. You can't. be a good parent, so why try? You can't. be a good partner, so why try? Work. sucks always, so why? like how do you. how do you stop that from becoming a. negative and go into the world of. actually inspiring people? >> You know, there are different ways of. addressing this, but I think what I. always come down to is I just feel like.

if you're interested in this stuff in. the first place, that's not going to be. the risk that that you run, right? Yeah, >> like it's very unlikely that like. like you know anyone who's got any level. of success, anyone who's kind of. stresses about it to some extent, anyone. who's buying books about how to feel ser. and calmer in the middle of the world we. live in is is I mean if if they're. already just completely a total slacker, they're not going to be in the the. market for it, right? So there's this. idea in psychology of the insecure.

overachiever, which is whenever I. mention this phrase, people are like, "Oh yeah, that's me. That's me. That's. me." Right? Like it's like people who do. really well in life, but they kind of do. it cuz they're they feel like they have. to and they've got to prove themselves. And I think most people in like public. life, prominent people, famous people, whatever. Like and any of any of. probably many of us in all sorts of. walks of life have a big dose of this, right? And so what those people need is.

a sort of a calming down and and an. ability to see that you can carry on. being super ambitious without that sense. of deficit and like void. You don't need. you can you can try to do loads of cool. things in life as an expression of. feeling good about yourself rather than. because you feel bad about yourself. And. so I think that those are ultimately the. kind of people that I'm that I'm writing. for. People who don't feel any stress. about how they use their time don't seek. out. >> this is not for you.

>> writing about it. I mean. >> Oliver is like this is not for you. >> Yo do you think your life is fine? This. is not for you but that's what Oliver. said. Now I do think that there also. there are people who are sort of feel so. overwhelmed that they don't sort of give. into that kind of nihilistic idea but. they just sort of can't figure out where. to start and like there's just so much. deluing me how can I find anything and. those people I think I do try to address. in this book right people who feel like.

desparing at how much. they're burdened by stuff they have to. do or feel they need to do that that I. think is a different thing but people. who are just like why do anything it's. pointless like you don't think that on. some level you want to build a. meaningful life, right? I think we're. going to continue this conversation. right after this short break. This message is brought to you by Apple. Card, shaved ice by the beach, a trip to. the state fair,

and a throwback flick at the local. drive-in. They're more than just items. to check off the summer bucket list. There are also opportunities to earn 2%. daily cash back when you use your Apple. Card with Apple Pay. Apply for Apple. Card now and use in minutes with Apple. Pay. Subject to credit approval, Apple. Card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA, Salt Lake City branch. Terms and more at. applecard.com.

Do do you think some of the way you. think. was shaped by the fact that you're. English? Huh? And what I mean by that is. like I'm trying to think of how to. phrase this. So. I feel like if you were American, your. book would be a lot more rosy. But being an optimistic Brit. >> means that you hope and believe in the. possibility of a better future, but you.

also like it's going to be raining. tomorrow. >> Do you get what I'm saying? >> Definitely is. >> Yeah, that's it's a strange it's it's. almost like you are the you are what I. would assume if someone had like a like. a stereotypical joke. >> What is a a British motivational speaker. an English motivational speaker? I would. be like, "Oh, it's someone who tells you. you can be better, but you're probably. not going to be.". >> You know what I'm saying? >> I think it's Yeah, it's a great question. because I actually lived for a huge. chunk of time in in in New York as well.

So, I've and I often feel like I've come. to some kind of um uh outlook that. combines these two or it's maybe like. being a Brit pushing against um American. culture. Um although that might have. been why I felt I wanted to come and. live here, right? to kind of find that. that middle space. So yeah, I feel like. you know there's a there's a sort of. failure mode as they say of American. self-help which is this idea that you. can do absolutely anything and.

everything. All you need to do is to. keep pushing and one day you will be, you know, the president, right? Whatever. It's like it's it's a perfect. success and wealth can be can be yours. um with enough discipline and it's. nothing to do with the society in which. you live and it's nothing to do with the. circumstances that you start off with or. anything. >> and the fact that time itself is limited. to your point. >> Right. Exactly. That you're not God. >> But there is a counterpart British like. bad place to go which which is like. uh you know life sucks. why bother? Like.

all you can do is get through the day. and that's as much to hope for. And I. think what I'm constantly trying to do. in my writing is like salvage some idea. of ambition. Like I'm quite an ambitious. person. I think maybe for a British. person especially, who knows? Um but I. don't want to have to do that in this. kind of endlessly unsatisfied, always very anxiously facing the future. kind of way. I I I'd like to find a way. of taking the best of of both of those. things. And in a sense, you know, we do.

all die and uh we don't get to do all. the things we want like that some aspect. of that British worldview is is the. truth, >> right? It is very much how it is. >> Um but I don't think the bit where you. then sort of resign. I don't think it's. about I think I want to avoid a. resignation. It's acceptance. This is a. good way someone put it to me once. It's. like acceptance but it's not. resignation. And there is a difference. between those. >> It's acceptance but not resignation. So it's like living in reality, >> but it's not drawing from that the. lesson that like. >> that's an interesting.

>> have amazing lives. >> It's an interesting distinction to make. cuz I'm trying to think of how you. really really pass the difference. >> Acceptance versus resignation. I. >> can I suggest something? I mean, I think. I think it might be the difference. between. >> accepting that things are as they are. >> Yeah. >> Versus accepting that exactly how they. are now is just basically how they're. always. >> going to be. how they always been and. how they always will be. >> One is one is a more permanent. >> Would you say it's more permanent or is. it more is one based in optimism? I'm.

like I'm I'm just trying to like grapple. with this now and go. >> like what what is. >> acceptance? >> Yes. >> Means that there probably is another. option but you're choosing you're not. choosing it. >> Okay. >> It's not available to you. >> Yeah. If you're resigning this it means. it's out of your hands. >> If you resign to something it's out of. your hands. But if you're accepting it, you go, I could have gone right, but now. that I'm left, >> okay, >> so at least with accepting, you know. that left exists. >> when you're on the right. >> Okay, >> but when you're resigning yourself to. it,

>> okay, >> you're like, these are my circumst. one as more agency than in some or it's. like the acknowledgements of your agency. in it in a way. Then. >> I used to see this when I used to work. at the mall as a teenager. Oh man, this. guy loves bragging about working at the. mall. >> It was my greatest achievement. >> Loves it. For those of us who didn't. work at malls when malls were Have you. worked at a mall? You ain't never worked. at a mall in your life. >> Empire of the world. >> where traders would come and pedal their.

wares and exchange. >> I always say that cuz I'm jealous. >> And gold bullion and spices. sometimes leave their children there. acting like it was a mistake. >> The malls were fire, bro. >> At the mall, we used to have this. tradition. So there was two times of the. year where promises would be made. Then. you would see that people have accepted. or resigned themselves to the fate of. working at the store. Around Easter, people would say, "Next Easter, I won't. be here, man. I'm going to be somewhere. else.". >> Yeah. >> Christmas time. Cuz we hated those two. seasons. People be like,

>> "Next Christmas, I won't be here." Three. years at the mall at the same store went. by with people saying the same thing. until I resigned. And two years later, I. came back to the mall and the same. people were still there. >> Oh, okay. M. >> So those people had resigned themselves. to the fact that this is their reality. >> The mall was their universe. If they. were ever going to leave the the store, it was to go to another store, not the. mall. >> But whenever I left the mall, I was. like, "This place here is a choice. I'm. choosing to be here.". >> Huh. >> So I left and I never looked back.

>> When you went back, what was what was. the vibe when you saw the people? >> They were still the same. >> What were they like with you? >> They were like, "It's only a matter of. time before you go to another mall.". >> Wow. Really? >> Yeah. I was like, >> they all cursed you. In their world, it was well wishing. >> Oh, damn. >> They were like, "You'll find stability. again in a community again.". >> Oh, I thought you were saying it like. they were like, "You might be out for. now, Eugene, but it's only a matter of. time before you find yourself in another. mall.". >> Being in a mall is almost like being on. those Star Trek spaceships. >> Yeah.

>> Where they're traveling across the. galaxy and there's different types of. aliens that kind of live together. >> The mall is like that. There's different. types of levels. People who work at the. body shop smell nice all the time and. they think they're better. People who. work at the luggage shop know about the. world, but they've never been to the. world. People who work at the music. store know a lot about artists and art, but have never produced a single thing. in their life. People who work at the. grocery store know about. So, it's. almost like this multiverse that exists. in one building. >> Yeah. >> And as a shopper, you go in there to get.

your goods, but as the people that work. there, they live in this universe. And. after a while, you become scared to. leave the to leave the universe. Well, the thing that that makes me think of is. that like this idea, it's another way of. talking about this stuff. I think that. like. >> we are actually always choosing. It's. just that we're either choosing. consciously or or unconsciously. This is. a big point like the existentialist. philosophers were were really big on, right? This idea that like to not to to. stay somewhere because you think you. just have to stay there is is a choice. >> Um. >> and once you're making it more.

consciously like maybe it is the best. thing for you to do, right? That's not. that's not ruled out. It could be that. it's there's something empowering about. knowing that it is. >> a choice. There is a sense in which you. always have a choice. >> Not meaning in that sort of worst. version of the American ethos way that. like it doesn't matter that you were. born into poverty or it doesn't matter. that you've got this or that. disadvantage. But. >> but that within those within those. frames. >> you do even with. >> you're making choices every moment. >> The the analogy I like to use for that.

is I always go think of it like a board. game. Mhm. >> We all start at a different place on the. board game, >> but from that point onwards, you you're. choosing and you really are rolling a. dice because but you're choosing to roll. the dice. Some people say, "I'm not. going to roll the dice cuz look where I. started." Yeah. Yeah. You started in a. terrible place, >> but you can choose to roll the dice and. then the dice is going to determine some. parts of your life and it's going to not. determine but then when you land on. certain squares, you can choose to do. things or not do things or do do you. know what I mean? And it's this weird. it's this weird balance of knowing. >> that in every situation. Victor Frankle.

had the most famous one. Yeah, Victor. Frankle for me. >> What did he say? >> Was in the Holocaust and he was like in. a concentration camp and he was just. like he just chose he was like no I'm. happy said I'm not happy about this. situation. I'm not choosing this to be. in this situation but the one thing I. won't let them do is take away my. ability to be like enjoying like my life. as a person and the ideas that I have of. myself. And that that idea I mean you. can imagine how many people butt up. against it. They're like no but you you. can't. you're in a terrible terrible.

situation. He's like, yes, the situation. I'm in is terrible, but I myself will. choose to perceive my life a certain way. without being delusional, >> right? >> And I will choose to maintain my mental. state in a certain way. And I mean, obviously he was, you know, that's why. he birthed a certain way of thinking, >> right? >> It it to do it in under such extreme. circumstances is quite special. >> Mhm. >> But it does remind you that you can. always choose. You know what I. >> But would you say he accepted or he. resigned himself to. >> No, he he accepted. That's what I mean.

to your point. Cuz he had his agency in. it. This is how I think of it. I was saying this to my brother the one. day we're like waiting in a line. somewhere for something and he's like, "Ah man, this I can't believe how long. we have to wait." And then I said to. him, not even like chastising, I was. like, "Man, it's crazy to me that you. consider this waiting. because back in my day, >> I was like, we just had to. wait.". >> Do you remember going to the post. office?

>> Yes. >> Do you remember going to the post. office? >> Yes. >> There's a whole generation who will. never know what a post office is. >> What a post office is. >> Yes. the fact that you had to go and. stand in a line, a single line. that was manned or unmanned. There were. like six windows and one person. >> Mhm. >> And then they would beckon each person. and everyone had a different degree of. like difficulty that they were coming. Some person wanted a stamp. >> Some person wanted to know why the. rooting for this package wasn't. >> right.

>> All you could do was wait in that line. there. You couldn't pull out your phone. and watch a video. You couldn't like. read, you couldn't answer emails. you. couldn't get on a call even. >> when I was first my first time in a post. office, my years in a post office, >> cell phones weren't even a thing. You. just you just literally just stood there. >> and you just. >> Yeah. >> You know what I mean? You literally just. stood there. So, so it's interesting to. have that idea of like are you choosing, >> right? And I think on that specific. issue, that kind of the the boredom and. waiting and all that stuff, it's so.

interesting because the the more we. eliminate that from society, the worse. it gets when you still have to do it. And that's something that I've written a. little bit about. Like the more things. get convenient, the more you can find. anything out online in seconds that's. happening 4,000 mi away or whatever, >> and then you're in a traffic jam. Like. that's worse somehow than than in the. world where that was just what life was. Because now it feels like the one. example I've given before is like it's. actually more frustrating to wait for. food in the microwave than it is for.

food in the oven, right? Cuz like those. 3 minutes are just like because they're. so close to being zero, right? It's like. it's so near to I can just click my. fingers and the and the food be warm. >> Do you wait for it to get to zero? >> No, everyone stops at like 7 seconds cuz. >> How many What's your time? >> Uh me I wait for the command. >> You hit zero. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Legend. >> Legend. Like you stand. I'm asking the. weight. Do you stand and wait? >> No, I don't stand and wait. So you. leave. >> I pretend I've got other things to do. Okay. My mind is No, then you're normal. Then you're normal. >> Okay. Okay.

>> I don't know a single person who puts. the microwave on, >> watches the numbers, and then like. watches it countdown and actually stands. there. And I'm saying like reasonable, like even 1 minute. >> Yeah. >> Right. >> You'll stop it at like 1 second. >> Yeah. >> That's enough. >> You know that scene in in um Avengers. Doctor Strange punches um the Hulk? >> Yeah. And then the other body of the. Hulk leaves and then. >> Yeah. Yeah. When his spirit leaves. >> Yeah. That's how I am whenever I use the. microwave. and I leave the other part of me there.

>> Yeah. Know it's true. And anyone who. works in like a shared office, you come. to the microwave to use it and it's. always stopped at seven or eight. seconds, right? And you got to cancel. it. I think people really find it very. difficult to surrender. for the surrender of control that is. involved in in waiting cuz on some. really deep level we want to be able to. determine how our day unfolds and we. want it more now that we can do it in so. many ways so that technology allows so. much of this. Um, and then we run up. against these moments where you do just.

sort of have to you do just sort of have. to wait. And it's it's really a feeling. of I mean the people talk about boredom. like it's a really sort of. passive or low-grade feeling, but it can. be really quite um aggravating, right, to be bored. Um and and I think a lot of. that has to do with the fact that you're. being asked to surrender control for a. little while to just wait for something. to happen, wait for the microwave, wait. for the traffic, the cars ahead to move. In New York, this is always striking to. me, right? Everybody's honking their.

horns when they're caught in traffic. jams, famously for decades. Doesn't do. anything, right? It's an expression of. frustration. Yeah. >> So clearly there's something else going. on there than like now I will do the. most effective thing to move the car in. front of me. It's just like. >> why do I have to run up against finite. reality in this way and like push. against it and it won't just do what I. want it to do? >> Is that British optimism? up. >> Yeah. You know, you know what you've. just made me realize as well is.

the more control we get, the less. comfortable we have not having it. >> H it's addictive. >> When you would order a pizza that was. going to be delivered, when you when. pizza delivery first sort of started, >> the pizza just had would just be the. you'd have a conversation with a person, >> they would tell you the pizza's on its. way. >> and then the pizza was on its way. >> Yeah. Then they started saying, "We. deliver within.". >> Yes. They give you a time. Then you're. like, "Okay, now you're looking at the.

time." Then they gave you a map to track. it on a phone. And now you sit there. watching this person. >> And then you're like, "What what is. what's h what's happen? What's what's. going on here? Why why are they you know. what I mean? Like you've become. >> even though they they keep giving you. priority as well. >> and more and more control. >> Pay more and you'll be first on the. list." Ah, that's even, you know, the. worst one that's gotten me now is on the. app. >> It'll say your food has been delivered. >> And then I'm like, but where is it? And.

then you find like the person like just. got there. So they've registered that. they've just arrived. But that delay. >> in that moment in time. >> I'm more panicked than I was for the 30. minutes prior. I have a cheeky question. I'd like to ask actually which is. another place where this happens. famously is like when people get kind of. like high-profile and celebrityish right. >> what are you doing. >> I'll ask you both. >> but like this is kind of like a famous. phenomenon where you move ever more into. a world where things are provided for.

you and you don't think about them. because you have a team all. >> and then like very famously right you. have certain people just engaging in. like. >> meltdowns or they become. Yeah, but I've seen people like that. I've seen. >> I think it's more prevalent with like. musicians, >> but I've seen like a few like actors who. are so sheltered from reality that they. don't know that anything comes with any. time or opportunity cost. They they are. not familiar with that concept at all.

So food is just available all the time. and and what they want. Yeah. And then. like and clothing clothing is at their. hotel. You know, there's people who. haven't been to a clothing store in. decades. They they don't even think of. that as a concept. The clothing is just. in their closets and then they wear it. or they don't wear it and then there's. more clothing and they wear it or they. don't wear it. Um when they travel, the. vehicles are just there that pick them. up that take them to a plane that just. flies them somewhere. They they don't. think of the waiting in between. Someone. takes their luggage.

>> Someone sometimes flies ahead of them. with their luggage to leave the luggage. and put the clothes in their hotel room. And then when they get there, the. clothes are just there. And so, so you. you remove so much of the time and. opportunity cost that you are completely. shattered by it when it comes into your. world. >> You know what? I I've just Oliver, I'm. sorry. I can't be part of this anymore. >> I don't I feel like I know someone who's.

not using their highprofile status. enough. I feel like some of it is wasted on. other people. Won't mention names. Hi, Trevor. No one flies ahead of him. No one packs. his wardrobe. >> I've always thought of doing that. I. won't lie. It just But it seems. ridiculous. >> There's a pack for a week. >> There's a service you can pay that. actually that you pay in New York. They. do that. They will pack your your. luggage. They pack your clothes. >> They'll fly your luggage to the country. you're going to on vacation. And then.

they'll hang all your clothes, steam. them, put everything up in the hotel. So. when you get there, everything is just. ready. And then when you check out, you. just leave. And then they'll come to the. hotel, take the clothes, put them back. in a bag, and then ship them back to. you. But I my brain I I don't know why I. haven't I haven't. Tell me more. I'm here for you. Because if those services are. transferable to friends and family, I. mean, Oliver and I won't say no. >> Yeah, but you're paying for all of these.

things. No, dude. Relax. Go ahead. >> I think you're saying transferable like. it's not a here. Here's what my issue. is. >> I always believe. >> that you should not become. comfortable. with things that may not be permanent. >> Life is such. >> No, no. But what because what I mean is. like if you are unable to accept it when. it like shifts the other way. >> No, I I'll accept it. >> You think you can go backwards? Nah, bro. Let me tell you something. You'll. go crazy. Do you know something about me. that you think Oliver should know?

>> Let me tell you something, my friend. You'll go crazy. there. The I don't care who you are in. life, there's going to be one thing you. get to that you can't let go of. >> Okay, maybe right. >> Warren Buffett was like famous for that. He's like simple dude has like a. McDonald's burger and a Coke like every. day of his life. And he lives in the. same house and he drives the same Honda. and all these things, but try and take. his private jet. Oh boy. Oh boy. that. old man will yo. >> Warren Buffett everyone's like he's such. a simple guy and yes with a private jet.

but go look at what he has said about. his private jet he's like I don't need. to change anything in my life and you. KNOW THE PRIVATE JET yeah. >> yo. >> he he has said it himself he's like I. can't go back. >> yeah he's like this is the only thing in. my life that I I can't I can't all this. other stuff the car the house the I can. live as simply as you want. I I don't. care about any of it. But the private. jet, please, please, please, please, please, please, let's just keep that.

>> And this is I mean this is a phenomenon. you see at every level of of income, right? It's called hydonic adaptation, I. think, right? And and anyone who is. >> at any level except like really serious. poverty, as soon as you have the ability. to, you know, buy a certain brand of coffee. or like anything. It doesn't need to be. priv private jets or within a million. miles of private jets. takes a few weeks. and then that feels like it's gone from. being a a perk to being a the minimum. baseline baseline like Oliver subweeting.

me. Yes, >> it's a new baseline. Mr. Heirloom. Tomatoes Tomatoes and Olive I've become. a matcha connoisseur. >> Listen to this guy. Matcha. >> I have sped out matchas. >> right outside the shop. >> cuz they weren't perfect. >> Because they were not. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> I first time I had a matcha I was like. this is nice. Mhm. >> And then now. >> 6 weeks in I even know the best spots. for matcha. You're right. At some point. what was normal is now not normal.

anymore. >> Right. And this is a very New York thing. as well, isn't it? That everyone always. has like there's the one place that they. got to go and get their thing and. everything else is is rubbish. Even if. actually it's some of the best in the. world, right? Yeah. That's a that feels. like a particular new option. >> Don't press anything. We've got more. what now after this. YouTube is one of those places where no. matter what you're curious about, somebody has probably made a video about. it. There are so many places it can take.

you and so much you can learn. YouTube. Premium is more than just watching. videos without interruptions. It changes. your whole experience. Maybe you're deep. in a documentary and you want to learn. about ancient Roman concrete and then. you need to step away. Well, background. play keeps everything going while you're. answering emails, making coffee, or. cleaning up around the house, even if. your screen is off. Plus, you can. download videos ahead of time for.

flights, commutes, or anywhere where the. Wi-Fi isn't super reliable. See, what I. love about YouTube Premium is that. YouTube can be almost anything you want. it to be. Think about it. You can learn. how to fix a car and 2 minutes later. you're watching your favorite musician. perform a tiny desk concert and then. it's a documentary, a horror movie, a TV. show, some dating show that you didn't. even know existed and now you're way too. invested in. And Premium makes all of. that so easy to take with you. Before a. flight, what I do is I download a few. things that I've been meaning to watch. and then something starts as a video, but then when I need to put my phone.

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This is the before I forget, this is the. this is the chapter that I wanted uh to. chat to you about uh becoming a better. procrastinator. >> That that like just like. >> sounds like an oxymoron. >> Yeah, exactly. Just like the idea behind. this blew my mind. >> But help us understand what you mean by. become a because everyone goes. procrastination is the worst thing, right? Putting. >> or or rather delaying what you should be.

doing. >> Yeah. cripples most people out there. I should. have done I haven't done the law, I. haven't done but but you say become a. bit of procrastinator. What do you mean. by that? >> I guess what I mean is there sort of I I. talk about good procrastination and bad. procrastination. So um there is a bad. kind, right? And that is wanting to do. everything so perfectly that you that. you sort of never get started because if. you want to really feel in control of a. project, the number one best way to feel. in control is just never to do anything, right? Yeah. Cuz then you're like you.

can think and we all know people like. this, right? They've got their dream, the band they're going to start, the. novel they're going to write, and they. love the dream. So, they never take. action because then the dream would come. into contact with reality, and it would. be painful. Um, and it is painful, right? If you do anything creative or. pretty much anything, you're always. going through that process of like, this. is good enough, but it wasn't what I. thought it could be at the beginning. Um, but then I think good. procrastination is really just the. acceptance of that truth that like given. that we are finite, given that we have.

24 hours in a day and have to be asleep. for a chunk of them, you're almost. always going to be not taking action on. almost everything, right? Especially on. almost everything you care about. Um, you make a list of the things you really. care about in life. In the next hour, you're going to do one, maybe two of. them, and all the others are not going. to get done. So making progress and. staying sane and being focused in that. context I think is is is not about. finding a way of of that not being the. case because that's that's life. It's.

actually a kind of anxiety management, right? It's it's the ability to say. >> I know there are all these things that. really count that are not happening. I'm. going to make them wait outside the door. because right now I'm doing I'm doing. this thing. Um I I talk in the book. about this idea lots of us have and I. had for ages, right, of clearing the. decks. this idea that if you want to. really get down to something important, first of all, you have to clear the. decks. You have to deal with all the. little stuff that's dragging your. attention, answer all the emails, and. then you get down to this stuff, but you. never clear the decks cuz there's an.

infinite amount of stuff on the decks. And actually, the act of clearing them. makes them fill up again faster as well. So, it's like the whole thing is a. nightmare. The only way to make time for. the things you care about is to say, "Okay, there's all this stuff waiting, but I'm going to make it wait a bit. longer. gonna first of all take an hour, take a couple of hours to to make. progress on this thing that I care about. or to nurture this relationship that I. care about, whatever it is. >> And then sure, I'll get a certain amount. of time for all that other stuff as. well, but it won't be this kind of like. first of all, I'm going to get my life.

under control and then I'll start doing. the things that count because that is a. recipe for. >> for bad procrastination. So good. procrastination is just acknowledging. that things are going to have to wait. If you're going to do if you're going to. do one thing, lots of other things are. going to have to wait. And that's just. >> unavoidable. And once you see it's not. avoidable, that's just such a relief. because then you don't need to fight. that battle all day long. You can just. be aortioning your time and attention to. stuff that really moves the needle for. you or that you feel you really want to. do or really need to do to keep your job.

or whatever your priorities are in the. moment. You're just doing those things. in sequence. >> and that's a day well spent. >> Awareness and moderation. >> I think one thing that adults don't do. enough is make a list. >> I think making a list is very powerful. Writing down the things that you think. you want. >> and the things that you think you want. to achieve. >> will quickly challenge every notion. you've had about the single thing that. you think you want. >> What do you mean? >> If you write, I want to. >> do one. I want to start renovating the.

garage. I want to start uh fixing my. car. I want to start. Once you write it. down, while you're writing it down, you. ask yourself, do I really want to do. this? >> Oh, >> but when ideas are just filled up in. your head, they all feel urgent at the. same time. >> Yeah, that's a really good point. Yeah. Yeah. >> When you're making a grocery list, it's. the same thing. You start with the. things that you like. >> Okay. >> Chocolate, biscuits, blah blah, and then. you get to the real things, the meat, the what, the oh, okay, other these. other things. Yeah, but these ones, yeah, so these are achievable and these. are nice to haves. >> But as adults, we don't make lists. enough. But we tell kids all the time.

>> Yeah. >> You want everything. Everything. You. want the Christmas. You want Christmas. gifts. >> Make a list. Make a list for the child. goes. Okay. Puzzle or mountain bike? >> A puzzle or a mountain? Adults don't do. that. >> Yeah. >> We think we've got it all figured out. Then it ends up becoming this maze that. we traverse throughout our lives of. wants and needs and actually nice to. haves and then the lines get blurred and. next thing you know, we never get. anything done. >> You also talk about it um. with with like the choosing of it which. I which I found really interesting. So. it's similar to what you're saying with.

the list, but you talk about like sort. of limiting how many things you can be. doing at at any particular time, right? Yeah. Yeah. Right. So there's a I don't. know there's a couple of bits in the. book that you might be thinking of, but. but I think there's a really good like. one really simple if you want like a. productivity hack if anyone does, right? I think one really simple approach is to. keep two lists, right? to make one list. that is. >> open-ended, could have all the things. you want to do that are on your plate. that you feel you should do, admin, whatever, could be hundreds of items.

long, and then another list that has. maybe some fixed number of slots on it, right? Five, a lot. Yeah. >> And the practice here, and this is very. simple way, there are lots of other more. complicated ways of doing this. But you. just take 10 things from the big list, move them through, and you start and you. and you don't let anything else come on. from the big list or the short list. until you've freed up a slot by by doing. it. So you're sort of creating a. deliberate bottleneck. You're not really. creating a bottleneck. You're. acknowledging that you as a human being. are a bottleneck. You actually only ever.

can do a certain number of things at one. time. Thank you. >> It's been my favorite thing. So yeah, that that also. >> So I only remove one from the 10 when a. space opens up from that five. >> Wait, no. Say you have five. Say you. have you have an open list. Open list. and then say have five. >> Yes. I bring over 10 to the five. >> No, forget 10. Okay. I I made a mistake. by using 10 as an example and five as an. example. Yeah, forget 10. Stick with the. five. You move five from the very very. long list. >> and then maybe you do one of them. Okay. Now, if you want, you can move another. one, but you can't just keep adding.

>> Yeah. You can't add things to your list. So, the way the way I remember reading. it was like. >> that's. >> you're doing a house renovation. >> Yes. >> Uh you are also in the process, you're. on this like big fitness journey, whatever thing. You're going to be. running a marathon. >> and uh you know, >> studying for MBA. >> Yeah. Whatever. Let's whatever these. things are. Great. >> When I write a book, >> but that's all your wish list. >> Yeah. >> What Oliver like what your book really. showed me was like no no no. >> you have sort of like like your you know. speaking or walking we have a finite.

amount of things that we can be doing at. any particular time but we can. infinitely think of things to do. >> Yeah. >> But we have a capacity right and so the. idea was no. >> create your capacity and make it really. limited. So it's like three things even. three like big things that you're doing. in your life. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Three big like and I mean like the big. things that you're doing in your life. >> that's on your list. >> You cannot. put a new thing on the list without. eliminating one of these things on the. lift list. >> So for example if you.

>> and you can't and you the cheat you. can't like switch them back and forth. cuz you're just going to like cheat. yourself like every day. You're just. going to be like h no this is number two. now tomorrow is number two. It's like no. no no. >> You could abandon one of them. >> That's what I mean. They have to go off. the list. >> or you could complete it. >> Yeah. But all it is again all these. things are is just ways of becoming. conscious of the reality. >> Yeah. And then what's great about it is. you're always looking at three things. only. So you go am I doing this? Am I. doing this? Am I doing this? Yes. Then. I'm actively living the life that I wish. to be living. I know there's a whole. list in my backpack. >> It exists.

>> Climb that. Yeah. Yeah. Open forest, you. know, starting an affair. Starting an. all secondary list, >> right? And you're not saying that any of. the things on that list are. automatically less good because they're. on that list. You're just saying I'm. limited. >> Even starting an affair. >> Yeah. Right now. things may be good or bad, right? You. have on the list. You have marriage on. your main list. >> and kids. You see, >> so until those things are knocked off, uh, serial killer documentaries AND.

friends like you who needs. whistleblowers. for your time. Uh, what would you say you've changed in. your life since you stumbled upon? Because you've shared it with people, but you said you you do it to teach. yourself. >> Mhm. >> What were the biggest things you let go. of? >> Specific things. I mean, >> if someone remembers the old Oliver. >> Yeah. >> What would they say he let go of? What. would they say he changed? What What. would he What did he put less importance. on? >> I mean, the big one, which isn't quite.

the answer that you're looking for, I. think, is is just the worry, right? like. spending actual large amounts of time. just stressing and ftting and feeling. anxious which is its own use of time. It's not a it's not an activity that. anyone would choose to do I suppose what. I mean but um so there so there is that. and then I think I've probably been more. conscious and again this parenting will. do this to you as well I've been a bit. more conscious about friendships and. social life right because it really. matters to me to have good friends and. to nurture those friendships but there's. always that layer of social life where.

like nobody involved is particularly. super wanting to do it but you're all. sort of going along with it and so. >> well if you like pickle boy. You know what I mean? There's that kind. of. >> the way you just phrased it. Everyone's. going along with it, but no one really. those friend groups are the worst. >> because it's like you you just keep. meeting for like quarterly reports. >> Yes. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Exactly. And you miss out on enough to. not really. >> Yeah. >> care so much, but you still have the.

Yeah. No, absolutely. And you know, not. not to diss the serial killer. documentaries, but there is a certain. kind of. >> I do find there's a certain kind of. content consumption that pretty quickly. falls out when you think about it in. these ways. Not never going on social. media, not never veging out with some. like fun thing on TV. Absolutely not. But you're doing it a little bit more uh. consciously than you than you were. And. and you're not sort of watching stuff. that on some level, even when you're. watching it, you know you don't want to. be watching. So I I know this may sound.

crazy, but how this changed my. consumption. I started making a decision. like making decisions to watch a movie. that I wanted to watch that I've already. watched versus just watching a new movie. that's come out just because it's a new. movie that's come out. And I know that. seems like a stupid thing to say, but. like. >> for a long time I would consume going, "Oh, there's a new thing I should watch. it. Oh, there's another thing I should. watch." But the only reason I consumed. it was because there was it was the only. new thing that was available.

>> Like the time you made us watch Mortal. Kombat. >> Uhhuh. That was for fun. >> That was one of the fun ones. >> That was that was. >> Where was fun there? >> Where was the fun, >> my man? When we were talking about how. bad the background was. >> Oh yeah, that was fun. >> Come on. >> Yeah, that Okay. Okay. Okay. >> Like come on. Everything in that. So, what I'll do is I I will when I have my. friends gathered, I enjoy making them. watch terrible things. >> and then complaining about it with them. Yeah. >> But we all I go, "Have you seen this. movie?" Then they go, "No." And I go, "It's the worst movie I've ever seen.". And then I go, "Put it on.".

>> I love that. >> And then we put it on together. >> And then they go, "Why are we watching. this?" Then I go, "Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. The worst part hasn't. come yet." And then we watch the movie. together. And I think this shared pain. >> I can well imagine it. Because they keep. saying, "Why are we still watching. this?" And I go, "No, no, no, no. It's. going to get worse. It's going to get. worse. How did they make this movie? It's going to get worse." And then they. go home, Oliver, and then they scratch. me off their list. >> They go, I need to move him off my list. >> They've made a conscious decision about.

their friendship. And you make, you. know, you make a good point about new. movies as well, right? There's a strong. pressure to see new stuff because of all. the advertising and because of that sort. of this applies to everything else. the. rest of the world will try to make your. choices for you. And that's going to. happen anyway. So, all we're talking. about here is like having enough push. back to keep focusing on some of the. things you want to do, right? In any. day, >> loads of other people's agendas are. going to have some role to play in it. That's okay. It's like you're not going. to get rid of that. It's just that.

you're going to have you're going to be. going into it with with some sense of. direction about what what you care. about. And I think that's a an important. >> You're making me realize that we. we left society has left the word peer. pressure in our teens, >> but we. >> it's persistent. >> It's persistent. It's throughout our. lives. The food we eat, the content we. consume. No, not yet. >> You're missing out, bro. See, I just did. it to you now. No, I.

after Mortal Kombat. No, but what you're saying honestly, like I joke, but carry on cuz what. you're saying is really profound. It's. true. >> No, absolutely. So, we as adults, we. don't think about, you made me aware of. this, the food that we eat and when we. eat it and why we eat it. >> It's also just peer pressure. The. adverts look good, the packaging looks. nice, the cars that we aspire to have. I'm now watching. how the a 10-year-old 911 Porsche is. actually better than a 2026.

Those cars are coming up in the market. now. People are going, it's actually not. so bad. It was actually great. But when. it was there at the time, it was not the. thing. >> But now in hindsight, the peer pressure. has driven up, but also the appreciation. for that has driven up the prices for. those cars because that's peer pressure. If someone that you look up to says, "This thing is great." They have it. Now. those cars are hard to find in the. market. But if you look at the market. from two years ago and even a year ago. >> during co as well those cars were dead. cheap but now because of peer pressure.

and it's so subliminal now and hidden in. so many things and comes in so many. packages. It's not that kid at school. who's smoking and says do you want to. puff? >> It's the cool guy that goes do you want. to invest your do you want to be wealthy. when you retire? Do you want to invest. your money here? Maybe buy this thing. Have you ever thought about paintings? Maybe have a six-pack. Maybe have you. seasonal tickets to this thing you never. have to worry about again. And again, it's not that you're going to become. perfectly free of all that, right? You're not going to be the perfectly. independent human. That doesn't exist. But if you have some conscious sense of.

what your main projects are at the. moment, what your focus areas are, what. you're willing to fail at at the moment, that's like a filter that you can you. can bring to to the world of all the. things that you're. >> argue that we need a we need what what. you're trying to provide here is a uh. >> a a mental and a life GLP1 to block. >> to block those desires. >> Oh, I like that. I like that. Yeah, I'll. settle for that. >> I actually like that a lot. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. figuring out like how to. boost your what is it? Sati sat.

satiation satiation satiation. How do. you say it? >> I'm not sure. Say is does it end in e i. t y or sati? Something like I've never heard that. word said out loud. I always read it. >> Has anyone ever said it actually? >> I have never heard anyone say it out. loud actually. >> Yeah, because the list Oliver's list. makes sense. >> Yeah, it's completely that. >> I'm satiant with these five. >> Yes. And what you're doing and you're. limiting how quickly your your your. stomach empties out. You're not like. it's it's exactly that you have invented.

the GLP1 for that's what you're. providing people. The GLP1 for life. >> I love it and I love the analogy. It had. not it had not occurred to me. So um. that's brilliant. Yeah. >> You know what had also not occurred to. me was when Mortal Kombat started. >> my my Swiss German side of came out the. sher. But do you have a memory, a core memory. for life? That's what I've learned. Oliver, >> if you watch a movie with your friends, nine times out of 10, they won't. remember it. Cuz most movies are not.

memorable at all. They have to be like I. mean, >> we're talking like Peak. >> Gladiator, >> you know, Gladiator, Dark Knight. Like, it's got to be like an extremely special. film for everyone to remember it. >> Make your friends watch a terrible film. with you. >> That moment will stick in your memory. forever. >> It also bonds you, right? It does. It's. >> like you're prisoners together and. >> we both suffered. The only difference is. I was the prisoner and the warden. >> I invited you in, locked the door, and. then we spent 20 years with me also.

complaining with you being like, "Man, WHEN ARE WE GETTING OUT? WHEN ARE WE. GETTING OUT OF HERE, MAN? THEY TREATING. US LIKE ANIMALS." AND THEN AFTER 20. YEARS, I WAS LIKE, "All right, this has. been fun. All right, man. Let's go do. something else.". Oh, man. But yo, Oliver, thank you. I. just want to say thank you, man. Thank. you for writing the books. Uh, thank you. for thinking the way you do. Uh, and. thank you. You you genuinely changed my. life. I hope I I don't mean that. >> No, that's lovely to hear. >> I genuinely don't say there's a. platitude. >> No, it's really lovely to hear. I'm like.

I say, I find it a little hard to like. it always amazes me that anything I'm. working through in this form helps other. people. But it's but it's really. >> completely completely changed my life. Like. >> can't wait to get started. It's it's the. reason I would tell anyone to read the. book is because for me 4,000 weeks. here's the best way to put it. It didn't. make me more efficient. It didn't make. me more productive. It didn't make me. none of those things. You know what it. made me though? >> More relaxed. >> It it freed me in a way. And that's the.

thing that that that I think we. sometimes take for granted when it comes. to uh self-help books or productivity or. all of these things. They always help. you to how figure out how to do more. They don't help you figure out how to. want less. >> Yeah. >> And both achieve the same outcome, but. one is way less stressful. >> One is less painful. >> It's way less painful. So, you're going, it's not wanting less in like a give up. way. It's just going like, "No, no, no. I'm fine with these things. I'm. accepting it. That's all I want. That's. what I want. That's what I need. That's. what I'm trying to do." And then someone.

goes, "Why aren't you doing that?" Ah, just because I I don't want to and I. don't want to have that capacity. Oh, but you could. It's like, "Yeah, you. could. You could do a little bit of. everything, but choosing the things that you want to. do a lot more of completely frees up. your life in a different way. So, thank. you, man. >> Thank you very What are you What are you. going to work on next? What's the next. book? >> Uh, I'm working on the book. Yeah, I'm. I'm trying to write a book that is about. sort of staying sane and functional and. getting stuff done in specifically the. kind of crazym times that we're that. we're living in at the moment. And I'm.

sort of. >> like how to not be paralyzed. >> Yeah. And I'm sort of tracking this idea. of aliveness, which is the working title. for the book, right? This idea of this. idea that that's the thing we need. It's. the thing that is threatened by so much. of the world in which we live. And that. really kind of building your life around. aliveness is in some ways I feel like. it's the the question that is not. answered by by by these books, right? Which is like, well, okay, >> you take a ser attitude to not trying to. do everything. What direction do you go. in then? Right? So, and for me that's.

been a really sort of important piece of. the puzzle. >> Yeah. >> It it's almost like once the human has. freed themselves from the constraints. that they've sort of like, you know, succumbed to in society, what does that. human now do? We talked about this the. other day in a in a little in a small. way. We we talked about like an. addiction and we're saying people take. for granted that. >> one of the things an addiction will give. you in life. >> is something to do and purpose. >> and purpose.

>> And when you remove the the addiction. sometimes what we don't do is then like. find a way for people to have. >> to replace it. >> Yeah. >> The replacement that's not is not an. addict but it's like your time and your. purpose were filled up by something. >> Right. And I think that especially today. I mean this is the diff big difference. with this book I'm working on is that. it's written like now instead of few. years ago and. >> so much stuff I mean we haven't talked. about AI and I'm kind of glad that we. haven't talked about AI but there that's. just one example of something that is. like. >> it's changing the fabric of how people.

interact with the world so much not all. in good ways and it really bringing up. this issue of like okay what actually. makes you feel alive as opposed to sort. of trudging through your day towards. some future moment of like everything. being okay. What makes you alive right. in the middle of all this crazy chaos. that we that we live in in so many ways? I'm looking forward to it. This has been. great. Thank you. Thank you so much for. inviting me. I've really enjoyed it. It's been great. >> A lot of fun. People, we need to talk about it.

Mondays need better PR cuz let's be. honest, nobody likes Mondays. Mondays. come with alarms. Mondays come with. calendars. Monday's come with emails. from co-workers who were definitely. productive all weekend. Thanks, John. Friday is a celebration. Saturday is a. lifestyle. Sunday has brunch. Monday has. meetings. And that's kind of the. problem, right? Monday didn't even get a.

fair shot. It got assigned a personality. and nobody ever checked if it was. accurate. So, yeah, Mondays are due for. an overhaul. And what if we didn't just fix Monday's. reputation? What if we completely. reimagine what a Monday can be? Like. instead of waking up thinking, "What do. I have to survive today?" You wake up. thinking, "Yo, what do I get to do today?" And not in a. small way, my friends. No, I'm I'm. talking about Monday being the day.

someone hits you up and says, "Yo, pack. a bag. We're going somewhere.". Not later. Not sometime this summer. Not. when we finally find time. Monday. You're going somewhere you've never. been. Doing something you've always. talked about but never actually booked. That experience you keep saying one day. too. Monday says actually today is that. day. Suddenly Monday changes shape.

Monday changes how you see it. It's not. just emails and meetings anymore. It's. possibility. It's movement. It's the day. something unexpectedly shows up on your. calendar in a good way. The alarm hits. different when you know it might be. leading you somewhere that you didn't. plan. That's the feeling we're looking for. John's emails are still there. Obviously, I mean, we're not miracle. workers. But even John might wait until. Tuesday if Monday's out here offering. you once in a lifetime experiences. And.

that's why, my friends, I like what. Verizon is doing here. Because maybe. Monday doesn't need better PR. Maybe it. just needs better things to happen. on Mondays. This segment is brought to you by. Verizon. Introducing Verizon Shine, where now every Monday you can snag once. in a-lifetime experiences like NFL. tickets across the globe. That's the. planet. All-inclusive music festivals. and the chance to meet your favorite.

stars, the celebrities, not solar. system. Plus, daily drops, tickets, and. pre-sale access all week only from. Verizon. Enroll today on the Verizon app. or at verizon.com. Pure Friday. Who? What? Thank you so much for watching the. episode. If you enjoyed it, pass it on. to a friend. If you didn't enjoy it, pass it on to your friend still. Let. them suffer for a change. And don't.

forget to engage with us in the. comments. Uh, if you want to suggest a. guest, maybe there's questions you want, maybe there's ideas that you have, you. can chat to us. We will read through the. comments and we'll get into it. Either. way, I appreciate you taking the time. Thank you for hanging out with us on. What Now. And remember, we do this for. you, so we would like to hear from you. Till next time. Thank you.