Why Google, Apple & Big Tech Keep Making Everything Worse | Cory Doctorow and Trevor Noah

[music]. Is this why Elon Musk called you a. scourge on humanity? >> He did call me a scourge on humanity, but it was because I told him that I. thought it was a different thing. He he. was like uh pray. So I'm a my other life. I'm a science fiction novelist. Uh and. uh I write when I'm anxious. I wrote. like nine books during lockdown. So I. write books for all ages. I have a new. middle-grades book coming out next year. I mean everything, picture books, tech. criticism, everything. And um he was uh.

singing the praises of a writer who I. knew a little but quite very much. admired a guy called Ian Banks who died. very tragically of cancer who was a. utopian socialist. Okay. And he was like. I consider myself a utopian socialist in. the model of Ian Banks. And I was like. uh no offense but I knew Ian. He was an. art and trade unionist and you're a. union buster. >> And he was like well in Ian Banks's. novels I didn't see any unions. And I'm. like, "Yes, these novels are set 100,000. years in the future in which there are. galactic brain artificial intelligences. piloting spaceships the size of planets.

with 100 million 100 billion people. living on them. The fact that he didn't. see a need for unions there tells you. nothing about whether he thinks we need. a union here." And he was like, "Well, if he and Banks could have seen one of. my Tesla factories, he would have seen. that we don't need unions either." And I. said, "Uh, again, no offense. I think. there is a difference between traveling. faster than the speed of light and. ekking out marginal gains in the. production of electric vehicles. Damn. And that is when he called me a scourge. on humanity. [laughter]. >> Uh damn. But I wanted to pop the stat.

cuz this started with talking about. >> block you after that. >> Yeah. Yeah, he did. Yeah. >> I'm always fascinated by that that side. of Elon. >> the blocking butt. He's he's like he is. the like number one champion of free. speech and jokes and opinions and all. this. >> until he doesn't have a rebuttal for you. and then he's like block you racist. Go. away block. >> Right. Gone. [music]. >> This is What now with Trevor Noah.

>> [music]. >> Cory, I'm I'm glad you've come and. joined us on the on the podcast. >> It's mutual, >> but not for the reason you may think. >> I see. >> I have beef with you. >> Oh, no. What have I done? >> I am pretty certain that I came up with. the term shitification. >> Oh dear. [laughter]. >> And then all of a sudden in like 2022, I.

saw people saying nshitification. You. see, >> which I think is more grammatically. correct. I just said, but I I know I. said it. I know I said it. Unless you. inceptioned me. I just remember saying. to a friend of mine, I said, "Yo, I'm so. sick and tired of the shitification of. everything." And then they were like, "What do you mean?" And then I was like, "Everything's just becoming shittier and. shittier. It's like they're making it. shitty on purpose.". >> I can see you coming up. >> And then people were just like, "Yeah, whatever." And then you like came up. with n shitification and now the whole.

world is on it. And I I feel like I've. been wronged. >> You know, when it's railroad time, you. get railroads. When it's [laughter]. intensification time, you get coinages. pertaining to the general shittiness of. everything. So, [laughter] it's I mean, we are just living in them. But. seriously, uh coinages are like this. So, uh there are lots of coinages. you. will find um simultaneous or near. simultaneous coinages that appear to be. completely distinct just because uh the. ideas in the zeitgeist and you know like.

I've spent 25 years working on these. issues and I've come up with lots of. words and parables and narratives and. all kinds of things and while I think. the minor license to vulgarity is. something that excites people I also. think that like in this moment people. are eager for a a kind of addivistic way. to talk about how they feel about their. technology. >> more than ever. >> Yeah. >> You know what's funny? It's it's gone. beyond technology. >> Sure. >> Even when I was telling Eugene about. this episode, I was like, I'm so excited. to talk to Cory because he has done for.

society what I think society has been. pining to do for itself, but just sort. of hasn't been able to piece together. And that is that like everyone. everywhere feels like everything that. we're getting and experiencing is. becoming more and more Yeah. >> Right. Mhm. >> We feel like the amount of food that we. get for the money we pay is becoming. >> We feel like the amount of things that. our time can do is becoming. >> We feel like our cars and the value that.

you get are You feel like. everything in your life seats are. getting smaller. >> Everything everything last 3 years not. dirty. >> Yes. >> Yes. You you can get like you can my. grandmother in her house till the day. she died had the fridge that I knew from. when I was a kid. >> But even that term [clears throat]. lifetime guarantee is gone now. >> Yeah. >> I didn't even think of that. >> Yeah. >> Remember there was Yeah. >> Almost everything had a lifetime. guarantee. >> Say 20 year guarantee store or a. lifetime guarantee of this. Yeah. >> Yeah. And and the thing is this this is.

why I appreciate your work so much is. because. >> there are there are things that that are. so pernicious. Is that the word? like they steal and they like. >> but what makes them what makes them so. insidious is that we all think we're. being individually crazy and chromogyny. >> you know what I mean so you just feel. like in your life you're like I feel. like old cars were made better then it's. like oh here we go again grandpa. >> you know I feel like this was it's like. and what you've done is you've taken all.

of it and gone hey. >> we're not crazy. >> Mhm. things are being made shittier. >> Yeah. And I like to think that the kind. of full theoretical unpacking because it. talks about the policy environment that. created it. Yes. >> Kind of takes us beyond like, oh, you. shopped badly. You you know, you you you. didn't realize if you're not paying for. the product, you're the product. So your. your failure to be a careful enough. consumer caused this. Or even like the. personality defects of these guys who. run these services are to blame. Like.

they're bad people, right? I I count the. spoons if they came over to dinner, but. like they're just doing what what policy. lets them do. And you know, one of the. things about having worked in this now. for like most of my adult life on these. tech policy issues is that I know that. this outcome was not only foreseeable. but foreseen, right? There were specific. junctures where policy makers said we. should do X and everyone showed up AND. SAID DON'T DO X. THIS TERRIBLE STUFF IS. GOING TO happen and they were like nah.

And so, you know, like on the one hand. it makes me very angry and feel a little. vindicated, but on the other hand makes. me hopeful because like if we can move. this beyond the great forces of history. and like, oh, it's just, you know, like. the iron laws of economics demand that. things, you know, margins be squeezed. where they can be and move it into the. realm of like specific policy choices. Well, then we can reverse them, right? We're not prisoners of history. We're. just people whose leaders were cowardly. and shortsighted and selfish and bad at. their jobs. And so, you know, there's.

obvious remedies for that. They don't. always involve a guillotine. >> Do you do you think that these. politicians were bad at their jobs or do. you think that we just made the. assumption of thinking they were working. for us when they were working for the. corporations? >> It's a little of both. So, you know, there's a specific one uh that I'm. particularly exercised about. So, there's this law called the Digital. Millennium Copyright Act from 1998, DMCA. Section 1201 of the DMCA. establishes a felony for modifying. technology without permission. So like.

if someone sells you a printer that only. takes the ink from HP and you modify it. to take generic ink, then that's a. felony. >> That's a crime. >> Yeah. It's there's a kind of nuance. there where it's like you have to bypass. an access control to do it, but all you. have to do is add the access control to. the product and you can conjure new. felonies out of thin air. So J Jay. Freeman calls it felony contempt of. business model. Basically, they just. created a path where any firm could take. any conduct it didn't like and make it a. literal crime. >> Just by designing their technology. >> I mean, if I extrapolate this to. everything like because people may not.

even use princes anymore, >> right? >> That's like saying if you have a car and. then you modify the engine, >> that's already the case. >> Wait, that's already the case. >> Yeah. Yeah. So if you like the whole. right to repair fight about cars is. because the diagnostic messages that go. from the part to the what's called the. main computing unit, the MCU, the main. computer in your car, >> those are encrypted and decrypting them, right? Bypassing the access control is a.

felony. >> And each engine component has a chip. It's called a system on a chip. It's a. cheap little fullfeature computer that. costs less than a dollar. And when you. put the part in the car, the part and. the MCU do a little handshake where it. says like, "Can you send me like a magic. code that demonstrates that you were. installed by an official technician and. that you were made by the original. manufacturer and that you're not a. generic replacement part?" And if it. can't, even though it's a real part that. really works, the car just refuses to.

recognize it. And it's not just cars, ventilators, major appliances, your. phone, um, uh, medical implants. Uh, this it's called parts pairing. Uh, and. because this is federal law, right? Is. it DMCA 121? It's it's it's a federal. law. When states pass right to repair. laws, they really can't reach to this. because it it preempts it. >> Okay. >> In Oregon, what they've done is they. just said, "You're not allowed to sell a. device that requires parts pairing." But.

that's as far as they've gotten. The one. of the most disgusting examples of this. is there's a an an American company. called Medronic that pretends it's Irish. for tax purposes. They did the they did. the largest tax inversion in history. >> Medronic does the um they do a lot of. like the uh CPAP machines and all of. those things. They are the largest. medtec company in the world. >> Oh, I didn't know that. >> Diagnostic devices, implants, prosthesis, the whole range, >> right? [clears throat] And they make the. world's workhorse ventilator. Uh so.

everyone every hospital has got a. building full of their ventilators right. and the ventilators use parts pairing. >> and during lockdown. >> you had technicians at the hospitals who. were taking like a dead working screen. from a dead ventilator and putting it in. a dead ventilator or the working screen. vice versa. >> and then it just wouldn't recognize it. >> because it just couldn't and you were. supposed to have the technician come and. bless the repair. >> but there were no planes flying and this. was the moment where we need ventilators.

more than ever and so there were just. ventilators that didn't work. Now the. crazy thing is how this got resolved. So. every country in the world has a law. just like DMCA 121 including South. Africa. It comes in through the free. trade agreements with the US. The US. trade uh trade representative has made. it the number one trade priority of the. US to get all of its trading partners to. enact laws like this basically to make. it illegal everywhere else to. disinhitify the products that America. exports so that American tech firms can. steal all your data and money and so.

that you can't go into business fixing. it. And uh there is a law like this in. Poland. It comes through the European. copyright directive article 6. And there. was a Polish medical technician who used. to work for Medronic who was making his. own ventilator illegal ventilator. unlockers and anonymously shipping them. to hospitals. Like he would find people. online complaining about this and he'd. be like, "Give me your address. I'll. send you the thing." And because it was. the lockdown, he just had whatever he. had for enclosures. So they would get.

like a guitar pedal. >> with like a USB port and you plug it. into your ventilator and it had like a. little Raspberry Pi like a. like clock radios, bedside lamps, like. literally whatever this guy had in his. place in Poland during the lockdown, but. he risked felony prosecution for this. and there's so much of this in Poland. Poland is like a weird epicenter for. this. So there's a Polish train company. called Nuvog. And uh companies that.

bought Newuvog trains would find that um. when they took them to a third party. depot for repair, they would just stop. working and they would like brick. themselves and you'd have to call up. Nuvog and Newvog would go, "Oh, we'll do. some remote diagnostics. It's €20,000. Okay, we fixed it." Or sometimes if you. just park them for a long time, they do. this. Or sometimes they're pieces of. track where if they ran over, it would. do it. So they hired uh an independent. team of security researchers called. Dragon Sector who reverse engineered the. firmware on this train. And the. manufacturer, Newvog, they the way that. they were winning all these train bid.

contracts is they sold the trains really. cheap and then they charged up the ass. for repair and maintenance. And if you. they they had booby trapped the train to. detect if it was parked in someone. else's maintenance yard and then in make. itself inoperable. And one of the. rectangles they drew around a train. maintenance yard, they drew it too wide. and it went over a piece of mainline. track. So tra it would just go it would. just stop working and then they. threatened to sue well they are suing.

the researchers they threatened to sue a. Polish member of parliament for talking. about this in parliament. This is like this is. there's so many things that you just. triggered in my brain. one one of them. being how we can go down the road or or. or rather we can we can sort of like. start at this at at this point. >> Mhm. and then extrapolated to everything. else. Cuz I was thinking to myself when. I was growing up, when we were growing. up, we take for granted how many.

industries and how many jobs and how. many people existed. because they were tangentially connected. to a product, right? >> Mhm. >> All over the world today, people are. saying, "Oh, my town is dying. My city. is dying. Stores are closing. People are. unemployed. Things are falling apart.". Yeah, >> but we don't ask ourselves what those. things were. >> And then when you think about it, you. go, "Oh, this was a place where they. repaired TVs. >> This was a place where they repaired. cars. This was a place where they.

>> but they had nothing to do with the car. or with the TV. >> They were just tangentially connected to. it. And now. >> the thing had to be made first. >> Yeah. But but but but what you've just. made me realize is as companies and. corporations have gotten better at. strangling that with these laws that. they've somehow got into, you know, into. effect, every single small business around it. dies. >> Yeah. So you reminded me, I didn't. finish telling you how this law came. into effect and why I know that they. were warned about it and what kind of.

politician passed it. So during the. Clinton administration, Bill Clinton. asked Al Gore to think about um. demilitarizing the internet because the. internet was like it started in Defense. Advanced Research Projects Agency and it. was run by like military contractors and. universities with military contracts. Few weird hobbyists and high-tech. companies but mostly it was just US. government military and it's like kind. of cluster military industrial firms and. so Al Gore did this thing called the. National Information infrastructure. hearings. They were called colloquially. the information superighhighway. You may.

remember that term. Yeah, I remember. that term. >> And Clinton had this guy who was his. IPAR, so his head of copyright policy, corporate lawyer named Bruce Layman, still live in Florida. Hi, Bruce. Uh, and uh, Bruce Layman had this idea for. what became DMCA 121, this. anti-ircumvention law that would. basically make it illegal to unrig the. system. And uh, he took it to Al Gore. And to Al Gore's everlasting credit, he. said, "No, that's terrible. Go away.". And so Bruce Layman in a move that he.

has later repeatedly described as quote. doing an end run around Congress went to. the United Nations in Geneva and there's. a specialized agency there called the. World Intellectual Property. Organization. You may remember them from. saying to South Africa, you can't make. your own retro anti-retrovirals during. the height of their AIDS crisis. So that. was all policy set at WIPO. Uh so he. went to WIPO and he said we're going to. make this into a treaty obligation. And. it became these two treaties. We call. them the the the WIPO copy uh the WIPO. internet treaties. So one's the WIPO.

copyright treaty and the other one's the. WIPO performers and phonograms treaty, but they the internet treaties. Then he. went back to Congress and he said, "Well, now you can't say no. You're. obliged to pass this law. >> of a treaty.". >> Yeah. And so that's how he got it. So. the question is, what kind of politician. did it? Do we mistake them for working. for us, working for them? I mean, the. Clinton administration, like every. presidency, was a coalition of people. who wanted different things. >> Yeah. And oftent times the way those. coalitions are managed is across. purposes. So in the Biden administration.

you had these like generationally. amazing trustbusters like Lena Khan who. brought these cases against companies. like Microsoft when they were wanted to. buy Activision. Then you had judges that. Biden appointed including one whose son. worked for Microsoft who heard that case. and said I don't see a problem with. this. Right? And so you often get that. within administrations. You get people. who who really want opposite things and. there's this kind of division of the. spoils and uh sometimes that just ends. up neutralizing everything.

It it feels. it feels like it's so far down the road. that it's everything now. >> Feels hopeless. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Because I I I think of the other. day my brother texts me and he goes, "Hey man, I can't play any of my. PlayStation games because it's telling. me that the license of the game is not.". But he was playing them and then he. wasn't playing. And then when we went. down this rabbit hole trying to. understand what had happened and how it. had happened, there had been some update. that they had done.

>> But basically, we realized that before. you would buy a video game, you take. your money, you buy the video game, take. it home. The video game is yours. >> It is yours. >> You can loan it to a friend. >> You can sell it to uh GameStop or. whoever. >> It is yours. >> Now, what they say is no, you have. bought a license to play the game from. us. >> until we change our minds. >> Until we change our terms of service. What's crazy to me though is like.

they can just shut it off at any time. and then you don't have it anymore. But. I go, "But we don't as as people, we. don't have that power. I cannot change. the terms of service on the people that. I was in a terms of service with.". >> You with me? >> So I I can't go back to, you know, PlayStation or whoever and be like, "Yo, uh, remember how I gave you that $80 for. that game?" Yeah. My terms of service. have changed. >> You owe me 40 back. You owe me 40. [laughter] back because my term of. service is that if I play a game and I.

finish it with a 97% completion rate and. I get all the trophies, then you guys. have to give me half my money back. They'll be like, you yo, get this guy. off the premises. Sure. >> Yeah. In the book, I call this the Darth. Vader MBA, right? As in, I'm altering. the deal. Pray I don't alter it any. further. Right? Like that is the one. lesson of the Darth Vader MBA. I I gave. you deal X and now it's deal Y. And you. know, this is a fight I've been having. about so these technologies that um. restrict access that are covered by.

section 121 of the DMC and these other. laws. They're called a lot of different. things. One of them is digital rights. management. You may have heard that. So. >> DRM. >> DRM. So this is a thing I've been. beating the drum about for like more. than 20 years. And and one of the things. so I I used to write for Wired. I still. write for them sometimes, but uh uh I. was writing for Wired and my editor at. the time was this guy uh Chris Anderson, really good guy. in and they published. this guide to things to buy this. Christmas, electronics to buy this. Christmas. And I wrote a blog post. saying this guide is all wrong because.

all these products have DRM and they can. be remotely downgraded. So you cannot. review a product and say if you want X, Y, and Z, buy this product. >> because the quality of the product may. never taken away, right? You have to. warn people somewhere. And he was just. like, oh, you're being paranoid and. unrealistic. We had a little, this was. like in the as when we had great fights. on blogs. It was like two men of letters. exchanging lengthy misses. Um, it was. very good. >> My good man, here is all the ways that. you are incorrect about this issue. First and foremost, let me draw your.

attention to the faux paw you made. Oh, good old days. >> Indeed. So, yeah, it was it was it and. and like I went to Pikipsy. I went to. consumer reports and and I was like, you're reviewing these products, but. like none of them are fit for. consumption because every product in the. category can be remotely downgraded, >> right? So like you cannot you can't. advise people buy this because you want. >> a device that will play back a certain. file format or whatever if that can be.

changed with no remedy on your part, no. recourse and no way to predict it. Because you know one of the things uh. about the timing of initification is. that it came after a bunch of these. lawsuits the Biden administration. brought where we got publication of. memos from inside the companies that. really showed you how these decisions. are made. Right? So they're like it's. it's not a mustache twirling CEO. It's. usually like with the with government. agencies or parts of government. It's. factional disputes within companies. And.

so like one of the things about DMCA 121. is it's I call it an inchogenic policy. because it means that the worst ideas of. the worst people make the most money. So. it means that when you're arguing within. the company, I think we should do X. I. think we should do Y. >> So imagine there's no DMCA 121. Imagine. there's no anti-ircumvention law. So. we're like. >> having a product planning meeting about. our website. if and and I say, "Hey, I'd. like to uh make the ads 20% more. invasive and obnoxious because I think.

that'll give us 2% more clicks." And. someone who doesn't give a damn about. user welfare might still put their hand. up and say, "Elon, I love how you think, but has it occurred to you like 40% of. our users are going to type in the. search bar, how do I block ads?" And of. course, we never see revenue from them. again because no one ever goes back and. types, "How do I start seeing ads. again?" Right? But if it's the app, right, and there's anti-ircumvention and. it's against the law to reverse engineer. an app because apps are closed. platforms, the web is open. >> You cannot block the ads. >> So at that point, the guy says, why are.

you stopping at 20%. Right? Like why. don't we make the ads 100% more. invasive? Get a 10% increase in our. clickthrough doesn't matter if someone. types how do I block ads in the app. because it's a felon. >> Yeah. So you know these encidogenic. policies we can see how they um then. there's like a line from them to these. choices made by product managers and. people within firms. So one of them came. out of one of the Google cases. So. Google is a thrice convicted monopolist. They lost three federal antitrust cases. in one year. It was a great year for.

antitrust. Bad year for Google. Uh and. in one of those cases well in all those. cases you get all the memos published. like internally. DOJ makes them publish. all their memos and and one of them the. search case um this great reporter at. Zitron wrote about the how Google got. worse at search and it happened in 2019. their search market share or their. search uh revenue had growth had stalled. uh and that was because they had 90%. market share so you don't grow your from. a 90% market share.

>> it's hard to not have those exponential. jumps. >> yeah yeah I mean you can raise a billion. people to maturity and hope that they'll. become your customers that's a product. called Google classroom. It'll take a. while to pay off. But in the meantime, they had this crisis, right? And so you. see these two factions forming up. One's. led by this guy Pravagar Ragavan. He's. an ex-Mckenzie guy. He's an engineer, but but a business guy. And he's in. charge of revenue for Google search. And. his rival is this guy Ben Gomes, who's. like an old school Googler who started. building out their servers when it was. like a computer under a desk and oversaw. all of the uh data centers in the world.

and is now in charge of Google search uh. technology. So Google search revenue, Google search technology. Praagar. Ragavan's got a great idea. He says we. can grow search revenue by making search. worse. So you have to search more than. once. >> so that uh we can show you more ads. >> No, Cory, you can't be serious. >> And and he's like and and Ben Gomes is. like, "But that's a terrible idea. I. didn't give my life to this company for. this." And he's like, "But we spend more. than $20 billion every year buying all.

the shelf space for search, right? we. buy like if there's a search box that. you encounter in the wild, it's wired to. Google servers. Doesn't matter what. operating system, what hardware vendor, what browser, >> it all goes back to Google. So like, why. are we bribing Apple $20 billion a year. not to enter the search market if we're. not going to exploit the fact that no. one can find any other search engines. without us. >> to to make it worse? And so it's very. easy to make it worse. There's um things. like query stemming where if someone.

does a search for trousers, you run a. parallel search for pants and you merge. the results. Uh there's spell check, right? You someone misspells a search. Sherman and you make a guess and you. just automatically fix it. Well, maybe. you don't automatically fix it. Or even. like context awareness, right? So like. >> we're recording this right after the. attempted shooting at the White House uh. uh press court dinner. So someone. searches for that. Well, you know that. there's a news item about it. So you put. those those at the top rather than the. generic best link for White House press. conference, right? And um and you just. turn that off and now people have to.

search two or three times and you have. Ben goes going like well I didn't miss. you know all those like little league. games and my kids to make the search. wars. I believe in what we do here and. you have Pragar Ragavan basically saying. money talks and walks. And you. know that I'm sure Pragavar Ragavan was. not the first person at Google to. realize that if you made search worse, people would have to search more than. once and make more money. But he was the. first guy to win that argument. And my. thesis is he won the argument because we. allowed Google to buy all of its. competitors and buy all the shelf space.

and bribe Apple $20 billion a year not. to enter the search market. And then we. created the conditions in which the. worst person at Google's worst idea was. the most money-making one. They had. nothing to fear from competitors. They. knew the regulators wouldn't come after. them. They were even at the point where. they were like less worried about losing. staff. I mean, obviously now they just. hate their staff and wish they would all. be replaced by chat bots. Uh and and so, you know, they were like just untethered. from discipline and in the absence of. consequences, the bad idea just was the.

one that won the argument. So if if I'm. hearing what you're saying then. one of the initial seeds that can send. us onto this journey, you know, one that. can grow into like a a forest of in. shitification. is when we allow competition to die. >> Yeah. >> Because because if you if you if you if. you have a market. >> where I mean we we've seen this in life. I don't care, you know, like some people.

might listen to this and think, "Oh man, I Yeah, but I'm I'm not in the tech. world. I'm not." It's like no no let's. even think of it on a small small level. >> We've seen this in South Africa. >> Mhm. >> There's a you know what New York would. call a bodega. We call a spaza shop. Like just a local store that's you know. really in Yeah. Just corner store. >> Mhm. >> When there's a ton of corner stores. >> two [clears throat] things happen. >> Prices are generally in check with each. other. >> Right. Unless there's price fixing which. generally didn't happen with corner.

stores. >> Hard to do with 200 companies. >> Exactly. So you would go, how much for. this? Now I'm going there. And the. person would be like, how much is it. there? All right, I'll I'll adjust my. prices. And so it it it kept everybody's. price in check. >> And the second thing it did, which was. almost more important, was. >> it made sure that somebody could hold. you accountable for the quality of the. product you were giving them because. they could go get it somewhere else. Cuz. in South Africa, we had like just all of. a sudden a burst of fake products.

Uh-huh. >> So people were selling like fake. Coca-Cola, like it was Coca-Cola in a. bottle. >> Yeah. Counterfeits, but it wasn't. Coca-Cola. And it wasn't And people were. like, "This tastes weird. This tastes". And they're like, "Ah, don't worry.". >> And then what happened was when they. could own enough of the stores or enough. of the corner stores and it was part of. like one syndicate, >> where would you go now for the real. product? >> You couldn't. >> And so these two things together now. even affect you on a So now, not only. are you paying more. >> you're also getting less. >> for the more that you're paying. >> Yeah. And then you I almost feel like.

this becomes like the. it's the it's it's it's the fault line. that will cause the earthquakes of. society is how [clears throat] I think. of it cuz this makes people angry in the. streets. >> but they don't know what's making them. angry. >> And then we just think like everyone in. society is getting like angrier and and. more pissed off and and more but it's. like no this is it. This is the fault. line. >> So it's funny you you raised that. Um I. uh so I work for the Electronic Frontier.

Foundation. It's a nonprofit that works. on digital rights. We have allies in. South Africa who work on these issues. related to IP and digital rights and. surveillance and all these things. Uh. and I was you know the the latest round. of updates to the copyright law there uh. included the expansion of the. limitations to copyright to match the. American set. So what we call fair use. here, which would have made it a lot. simpler to for like university teachers. to teach and high school teachers to. teach and you know photocopy course. packs do all these things that are just. kind of normal.

>> And uh and the US trade representative. was like no that American policy is very. extreme and you shouldn't have it here. in South Africa. >> No way. It's terrible. >> You know it's funny I I used to talk to. the team about this. >> So when you and I were doing the show in. South Africa. >> Yeah. >> Eugene and I were doing like a late. night. It was like a new thing in South. Africa. It wasn't really a thing that. had existed. >> We said, "Can we use clips from like the. news and from stuff?" They were like, "Hey, yeah, yeah, yeah.". They were like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah. We. wanted to play the idols clip." And they.

were like, "What the hell do you bloody. hell think?" They're like, "Yo, >> this is not allowed.". >> Yeah. >> In the country, it's not. So, I thought. that was normal. I was like, "Okay, I. get it. You can't take somebody else's. thing and comment on I understand. I get. it.". >> Then I came to America, >> right? And everyone was doing it on. everything. The Tonight Show, the Late. Show, the Daily Show, the News, MSNBC. And I was just like, "What everyone?". And they're like, "Oh, no. Here it's. fair use.". >> Yeah. Yeah. >> So, what does that mean? They're like, "Well, it's fair that you can use. something because you are trying to do.

something else. You're not just trying. to plagiarize it and this is fair to. do.". >> Yeah. It's just. >> And now you're telling me that those. people told South Africa, >> you can't have it. >> Don't do our one. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's. great. So a at EFF um you know when I. started I was I watched tech companies. really have their users back. This was. sort of the Napster era and there was. there was this kind of broad sense that. we should like not make it really easy. to remove content from the internet. because then people would like censor. stuff you need evidentary standard. We.

shouldn't just spy on people. We should. uh it should be really easy to go from. one service to another. What's called. interoperability where things plug into. each other all browsers. >> Can you move your accounts? Can you move. your contacts? Can you move your chats? Yep. I remember this period. >> and that was because there were hundreds. of them and when there's hundreds of. companies they're a rabble, right? They. can't agree like not just on what their. policy position is. They can't agree on. like what they'll cater the meeting. where they try to work out the policy. issue, right? Like they're they're you. know what it's like getting even a dozen. people to agree. But um and and I.

watched the media industry kick their. ass, right? So they were like two orders. of magnitude larger than the media. industry during the Napster wars. Uh but. there were seven media companies which. now five [laughter] and the media. companies had one playbook, right? And. they whether they were in Congress or in. a court or at WIPO or whatever, they. just said the same thing. Uh and there. was just ne there was this incredible. unity that you get when you boil down a. large group to a small group. And what. we did is rather than making media more. like tech, we made tech more like media.

>> And now we've got like an internet. that's five giant websites filled with. screenshots of text from the other four. and they totally agree on all the ways. that we should be screwed. And in fact, they've more or less merged with these. media companies. But this amazing thing. has happened since more or less since. Google and Shitified in the last like. six or seven years, which is that. everywhere in the world, we've seen this. like almost spontaneous upwelling of. policy makers taking aim at monopolies, right, at at at concentrated corporate.

power. There's a famous study out of. Princeton. They they call it. colloquially the oligarch study because. it's got a very long academic name. But. they went and they looked at um like. about 2,000 policy outcomes and they. concluded that the biggest predictor of. what would happen in a policy fight is. what billionaires wanted. And if. billionaires wanted it, we got it. And. if billionaires didn't want it, we. didn't get it. Are you being real? >> And yeah, and basically the policy. preferences of ordinary people had no. bearing on policy outcomes. >> Are you being real? >> 100%. >> But here's the thing. No billionaire. wants antitrust enforcement. No, they.

hated. >> But we have had antitrust enforcement in. America, right? And it started under. Trump won. It didn't start under Biden. It started under Trump won for I think. Trump won. [laughter] Trump won. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> From the people who brought you Trump. one. [laughter]. I'm back. He's back. >> Let's do it again. We're back. [laughter] Part two. It's part two. So. we got it under Trump one, but also the. European Union like started making these.

really muscular regulations. The digital. markets act, the digital services act, now the digital fairness act. Then. European member states like Spain and. France and Germany started doing stuff. and then um we we also got it in uh in. England and we got it in in the UK in a. period where like their politics were so. screwed up that like they had prime. ministers who were lasting uh for 10. years that were shorter than the shelf. life of a head of lettuce, you'll. recall. And yet this was the period in. which the Competition and Markets. Authority, which is their answer to the. FTC, did its best work ever. Uh, like.

all the best Americans, I'm Canadian. And in Canada, we had this too. And. Canadians say that, bro. I love it so. [laughter] much. >> It's one of my favorite things Canadians. say. >> So, you know why? You know why I love. that thing? Because. >> as a South Africa, I can't hear the. difference between most Canadian accents. and Americans. So, when a Canadian says. that, the whole time I thought you were. American, then you're like, like, all. the best Americans, I'm Canadian. I'M. LIKE, WHOA, YOU DID it again. Yeah. [laughter] And honestly, I can't hear. the difference. I mean, I can hear the. difference between a Texan and someone. from Newf Finland, but I can't but you.

know, generic newscaster Canadian. accent, generic newscaster, American. accent, all the same. But, um, we had. the world's most useless competition. authority. So, our competition bureau in. its entire history had challenged three. mergers. And that number may seem low, but the number of mergers they. successfully challenged was zero. And in. 2024, Justin Trudeau whipped his caucus. to pass the most muscular antitrust law. uh with the most sweeping powers of any. competition bureau in the world. And. Justin Trudeau was not like a foe of.

corporate power, right? He was like his. whole brand was sort of Pete Buddha. Judge style like kind of neoliberal like. uh you know sort of Mackenzie good. >> the status quo but let's make it a. little bit better. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So we get this. out of Justin Trudeau, but we also got. it in South Korea and in Singapore and. in Japan and Australia and also China. >> Wait, what was happening? >> So different things in different. countries. South Korea and Japan pursued. antitrust cases against Apple for price. fixing uh the uh in the app store. So if.

you if you um sell anything in an app, if you collect any money in an app, >> 30% goes to Apple. >> Apple requires you to use their payment. processor. They make a hundred billion. dollars a year on that. It is the most. profitable line of business they're in. It's more profitable than anything else. they do. It is pure profit. It's a 30%. tax on the digital economy. Right. Right. Uh and it's crazy. It's just like. a It's a shocking sum of money. >> Wait, but wait, let's Okay, let's delve. into that cuz this this is something. that I've um I find myself grappling. with. It's a tough one. >> Mhm. >> On the one hand, I do think it's crazy.

that Apple charges you 30% of any. revenue that is coming in from your app. that you're charging in the app. specifically. On the other hand, I go, there was no. app store. There was no app ecosystem. There was no they're making it. Have you. tried to sign up for anything that's not. in Apple? Eugene, do you want to hate your life? My man, >> good luck paying. Good luck. It's It's. messy. It's hard. Good luck. cancelelling, by the way. >> Mhm. you try cancel a product that you.

didn't sign up through like Apple like. get some other service because I've. tried to like get out of the ecosystem. like now I'm going to go sign up on the. website myself and I do my thing. >> till this day there will be $5 leaving. my account where I'm like I mean I don't. know I keep sending email I cancel. unsubscribe I no longer wish to reason. for leaving cuz I don't want to give you. my money [laughter] anymore reason for I. don't want to be here anymore that's too. bad can we put you through to somebody I. don't want to be put through to anybody.

But so, so there's that side of it where. I go, what is the amount that Apple or. anyone should be able to charge for. inventing a new thing that makes you. money that you didn't make? Cuz you are. making 60%. >> from zero. >> 70%. >> 70%. Sorry. You're making 70% from zero. [laughter]. >> From zero, right? So, you're making that. 70% from zero. >> Why? >> Sure. Why shouldn't like I this and I. genuinely mean it as like a grapple. because I go like ah.

who decides? >> Yeah, but who decides? >> So, okay. So, put on take off your uh I. use a phone app and put on your like SIM. regulator app and you're trying to like. figure out what's best for society. Yeah, let's do it. Right. So, right now. the way that it works is reverse. engineering an iPhone to add a different. payment method is a felony. Right. So, Apple gets to put you in jail if you try. and add another payment method. And. Apple's argument is that by blocking. independent repair, independent software. installations, uh, independent payment. processing and so on, that they're able. to do the sort of paternalistic thing,

they've got their users back and they. will step in and do it. And there's an. extent to which that is undoubtedly. true. >> But there is a threat that Apple will. never defend you against, which is. Apple. >> And so where Apple doesn't have your. interest at heart, then you have no. recourse because you can't change your. phone if you don't like what Apple's. doing. So in 2021, Apple updated iOS. I. think it was 2021. They updated iOS, which is the operating system for like. phones and watches and tablets. Uh, and. they gave you a single tick box and you. ticked it and then Facebook couldn't spy.

on you anymore in the apps. 96% of iOS. users tick that box. The other 4% were. either drunk or Facebook employees or. drunk Facebook employees, which makes a. lot of sense cuz if I worked at. Facebook, I would always be drunk. >> Hey, Cory's getting to fire shots, bro. Cory [laughter] doesn't play games. Cory's here with his machine. [snorts]. Cory doesn't play games, bro. So, so you. get it, right? Like this is clearly like. neoliberal economists, the same ones who. say monopolies are efficient, they like. to talk about revealed preferences, okay? Where if you do one thing but say. another thing, the thing you're doing.

matters more than what you're saying, you have a revealed preference. This is. like a a thing you can only believe if. you incur the kind of neurological. injury you get from taking an economics. degree, which makes you incapable of. like perceiving or reasoning about. power. You see someone who's like sold a. kidney to make the rent, you go, "Look. at that person with the revealed. preference for one kidney." [laughter]. So, So, here's the thing. When you give. people a real choice, they can reveal a. preference. Cuz Facebook would have said. up until that moment, people use. Facebook, so they don't want their. privacy. So, here's the kicker. >> When Apple was turning this on for.

Facebook, they were also turning on. their own surveillance system for the. iPhone that gathers all the data. Facebook used to gather in order to. target ads to you because they have a. competing ad broker. And there's no way. to opt out of that, >> right? And it's against the law to do. unto Apple as Apple did unto Facebook. >> But that's like just for table stakes, right? So, uh, in China, the government. said to Apple, you must remove all the.

privacy tools. There's no VPNs. There's. no antenna encrypted messages that. aren't um backdoored. And they backdoor. iCloud in China so that they could. figure out who to like stick in a. goolog. Right. >> Right. So, again, Apple's got your back. until they don't. And when they don't, what do you do? >> Totally cool. And then finally here in. America, Apple decided that an app. called Ice Block, which is an app that. warns you if there's a guy in Oakley's. in a gator who wants to shoot you in the. face or like send you to an El Salvador. and slave camp for the rest of your. life, that that doesn't belong in the.

app store. That uh. >> what was the argument? >> ICE officers are a protected class. >> Oh, as they should be. [laughter]. >> They're a visible minority. Huh. And so it I mean the argument is please. don't tariff my stuff, Mr. Trump. That's. the argument, right? >> Huh? >> That's why Tim Cook flew to DC to. assemble a little gold participation. trophy for Trump. Do you remember that? >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. >> You know, it's why he paid a million. dollars to sit behind Trump on the dis. at the inauguration. It's why they gave. millions of dollars for the Epstein.

ballroom. You know, it's because. [laughter]. it's it's mafia, right? >> So when Apple has your. >> Yeah. And [laughter] one IS NOT SCARED. OH MAN. SO, [laughter] you know, you can. tell someone has multiple passports in. this conversation. >> I I have. >> someone here has multiple passports. [laughter]. >> I'm Canadian, British, and American. >> There you go. You can see. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Just freewheeling. here. [laughter].

>> So, literally evil can even this. conversation. [laughter]. >> So, how do you get how do you get Apple. to like have your back again, right? They have to be afraid. They have to be. afraid that something bad will happen to. them. Right? If we want them to be good, there have to be penalties for being bad. because within Apple, I guarantee you, in fact, it's public because they all. leak to the New York Times and Wired and. whatever. There are tons of Apple. employees who are like, "This is bad and. we shouldn't do it.". >> Oh, wow. >> They say it about China. They say it. about app store fees. They said it about. Ice Block, right? And they're losing the.

argument. What if their argument wasn't. just this would make me feel icky, but. also that hundred billion dollars a year. we take in from transactions is about to. be shifted to arrival because people are. so pissed off with us that they would. happily switch. Yeah. >> Right. Apple Apple makes this argument. all the time. They say, "Well, if we let. third parties fix your phone, well, maybe they do something bad to your. phone when they fix it." Well, that's. possible. So maybe we should have a law. that says if I fix your phone and. install spyware, I go to prison or get.

fined or whatever, right? And in fact, you talked about cancelling. Under the. Biden administration, Lena Khan created. what was called the click to cancel. rule, >> which corporations me too. Me too. God, I I I used to send her texts that said, um, I can't tell you how disorienting it. is to get out of bed in the morning and. look at my phone and go, "Oh my god, my. government's great.". >> Yeah. like Lina Khan was. >> because because you know what you know. what it felt like with Lina Khan? It. felt like there was somebody in.

government doing what the government is. supposed to do. So here here's how I. here's how I've seen it. So Lina Khan. >> was fundamentally tasked with making. sure that trade and competition were. fair. >> in the United States, right? >> And this is something that people often. times obscure in these conversations. If you talked to billionaires and CEOs. of corporations, they would make Lina. Khan seem like the devil and they would. often times say you need to let business. do what it does and you know you got to.

be unrestrained and because if you if. you restrain industry it will not move. in the direction. But this would be the. equivalent of two fighters in the cage. in UFC saying you got to get the refs. out of the cage man. get the refs out of. the cage and then just let the fighting. be unrestrained and then true fighting. will emerge and then you will know who. the best fighter is. And it's like yeah. that's true but a lot of people might. die. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> A lot of people might die. So the reason. we have a referee even at UFC is because.

there is somebody who knows what the. rules are. >> and their job is to enforce the rules to. make sure that the spectators and the. fighters in the cage are protected. officially. Yeah. You don't need to see. anybody dying. >> and you two don't need to die. >> And so even though you may not think it. as one of the fighters, it's actually. good for you. And this is this is the. thing people don't realize is that. having somebody who is competent at.

enforcing the trade and competition laws. in a country is actually good for. companies. You know why? When you are. winning in a death match, you don't. think someone should stop a death match. >> Yeah. >> Cuz you're on top. >> But when you are losing a death match, you will pray to God that there was. someone there to tap you out. >> Someone there to go, "Hey, hey, you. tapped. the fight is over. >> I've seen multiple major corporations. who were once like, you know, at the.

pinnacle HP, etc., etc., you know, just. absolutely killing it. They never want. any enforcement. But when they fall down or when they're. on the ascendancy, they'll point out. constantly how they're being oppressed. by other companies, how the competition. is being stifled, how they're being. blocked out of doing certain things. Like one of the most famous stories for. me was um Virgin Cola. >> Uhhuh. >> Richard Branson was really a genius at. making innovative and interesting.

companies that just created a new type. of value where people didn't expect it. Virgin Airlines, you know, Virgin. Atlantic, Virgin, you know, you the. ship, etc. >> But a big one was Virgin Cola. >> One of the craziest things I learned. about Virgin Cola was it was actually a. product that people were starting to. like more than Coca-Cola. >> No, >> I didn't know this. Mhm. Mhm. >> But it was pos like taste test and and. just in raw sales. It was doing this, it. was doing this, it was doing this. It. was just people were like, "We like the. taste of this more than Coca-Cola." And.

then what did Coca-Cola do? They went. out to all their distributors and all. the people. And they said, "If you give. this guy shelf space, we're going to cut. you off completely." And remember, right. now, we're responsible for such a large. amount of your revenue, >> right? So, if you let this guy come into. your places, if you give him a favorable. shelf space, if you even give him shelf. space, >> yeah, >> we're going to shut this down and. good luck to you not having any of our. products.

>> Sure. >> What can you do as a store? You're a. corner store, mom and pop store, supermarket, doesn't matter how big you. are. >> They're a huge part of your turnover. >> They've got a lot of product. >> They've got too much product. And so, you go, "Sorry, Virgin. You're out." And. that's literally why Virgin Cola died. It wasn't badly anything. It wasn't. And. so in that if you are the virgin cola or. if you are the anything in any field, you can think when you're on top, you're. always going to be on top.

But when that behemoth flips and they're. coming after you, that's when you're. going to wish that there was. enforcement. But by then it might be too. late because now there might only be one. company. And so now it just becomes an. environment where competition cannot. even begin to exist. Does that make. sense? >> Yeah, I think you said that very well. Do you remember on Saturday Night Live, Lily Tomlin used to do this bit where. she'd play an AT&T operator or the AT&T. operator? And she would do these fake. ads for the phone company and they would. always end with, "We don't care. We. don't have to. We're the phone company.".

Right. And Lena used to say, "Companies. aren't just too big to fail. They're not. just too big to jail. They get too big. to care.". >> Yes. >> And and so there has to be some external. source of discipline. So this started. when you asked me about competition. And. um I I tell uh even my like most. Einranpilled libertarian friends, you. know, people who can't open their copy. of Atlas Shrugged anymore because the. pages are stuck together. I say even if. you think the only thing the government. should do is enforce contracts, >> you still need a referee who's more. powerful than the players on the than.

the teams on the field. >> Otherwise, how what what does it matter. if the government says, "Oh, you know, party A violated their contractual. obligations to party B if party A is. more powerful than the government.". Yeah. >> So, the largest corporation you're. willing to determines the size of the. government you're going to have to have. It has to be bigger. And so, if you want. small, you need smaller corporations. >> Oh, that's an interesting argument. I've. never thought of that. People say, "I. want small government, but then they. don't consider. >> Yeah, because you get economic, you get. central planning one way or the other.". There's always going to be a planner. So, either it's Apple saying ice block.

should be illegal, right? And what's. your what's your lever on Apple? Like, if you don't like how Apple's behaving, what do you do? You say, um, oh, I'm not. I'm going to switch to Android or I'm. not going to buy any apps anymore. You. just do this like halfass like people in. this in this day and age think that a. boycott is how you shop, right? I. participated in the boycotts against. apartheid. They were not shopping. differently. They were a global movement. organized in solidarity with the ANC and.

trade unions in South Africa that. arranged for a set of uh of like. articulated objectives and a tactic. around it, right? It was shopping hard. It wasn't shopping hard. You know, the. the bus boycott in Montgomery was not. like I feel like walking to work today, right? They did 380 days without riding. the bus because they organized. solidarity networks with car pools and. they were working with the bus drivers. to keep them fed while the buses were. shut. Like that's what a boycott is. It's not shopping cart, >> right? >> So either Apple gets to decide which.

software people. So iPhones basically. iPhones aren't are a minority in the. market, but they're the super majority. of the top decile. So the 10% richest. people in the world, >> okay, >> the vast majority of them own iPhones, which means that like any significant. digital business that doesn't work on an. iPhone doesn't work, right? So So. they're effectively a market planner, right? They're like they're like someone. in, you know, Moscow coming up with a. 5-year plan in 1976 for the digital. market. So, either it's them and you.

have no leverage over them. All you can. do is like, I don't know, go on Reddit. and complain or it's the government. And. and I know people are like, well, what. are we going to do about the government? And right now, it's a very hard. question. But what un like how many. universes are there in which a giant. corporation that you're angry at listens. to you versus how many universes have we. had in which the government is. responsive to people? It's still not a. great track record for the government, but at least there is the nominal basis. of being publicly accountable. The. people in these firms will tell you that.

they have a fiduciary duty. >> to be terrible to you if that makes them. a nickel more in profit. Right? They'll. tell you. >> Isn't that something that was. misunderstood as well? Well, it's a it's. a piece of propaganda Milton Friedman. came up with. It's not. >> But but isn't Yeah, because apparently. the original thing was your you have a. fiduciary responsibility. to your shareholders, but then. apparently there's like an end of the. sentence that no one says. >> Yeah. It's more like it's more like the. problem with fiduciary duty is they act. as though it's a bright line test,

right? You just say, "Oh, well, what did. the manager of this firm do? Was that in. accord with their fiduciary duty?" and. that you can just like a Martian looking. through a telescope could tell you from. you know millions of miles away whether. it was or wasn't fiduciary but like you. fire half the people and you're like. well I'm fulfilling my fiduciary duty by. reducing our payroll you give everyone a. raise while I'm fulfilling our fiduciary. duty by increasing morale which will. increase there's no fiduciary duty is. the allpurpose excuse. >> okay you can just use it for anything. and be like this is my fiduciary. >> the market made me do it. >> okay all right that makes sense. >> so it's so the the the thing that.

competition does is it makes the firm. small enough to regulate which means. that we don't need as Goliath a state to. regulate them and it also means that. when the state tries to make. evidence-based policy when they're like. okay so we're going to build this. building we have these reinforced steel. joists in the ceiling and we want to. make sure that the roof doesn't fall in. we need to know what our building code. should be right and so they're going to. like put out um it's called like a. notice of inquiry right and we're going. to ask the public what they should do.

and you're going to have people who have. a certain patented process for making. one alloy and people who have machines. that make a different thing and you know. lots of different stuff and they're all. going to show up and they're going to. say this should be in the building code. and then they're going to look at each. other's submissions and they're going to. do reply comments. They're going to like. that building's going to fall down if. you build it the way my competitor does. and here's my math, right? Here's my. evidence. So they're doing the work of. the regulators, right? They're like. they're they are checking each other's. because because they all when. we have enough of them it's like a. healthy ecosystem.

>> Yeah. Exactly. If you if you have. a vast array of species, they keep each. other in check. >> Mhm. >> You know what I mean? So the fox hunts. the rabbit and then the rabbit eats the. plants and then the plants d and it's. just this nitrogen. >> Yeah. Yeah. There we go. But it's like. everyone is doing a thing in this cycle. >> But once you start to create a monopoly, you go, >> we just have rabbits now. >> And then now what happens is there are. far too many rabbits for the plants. And.

then everything that's growing is being. eaten, but nothing's eating the rabbit, but nothing's People don't understand. that companies and businesses are like. this as well, is that they themselves. keep each other in check with. everything. Some might even spot like. something unlawful that the other. company's doing because they're in the. same field. So they go, you guys are. breaking the law. And it's like, oh, thanks for telling us. We wouldn't have. paid attention to it because we didn't. have the same incentive, but it. benefited us and so you did. And so in a. weird world again we don't understand. that having the more of it people you.

you know where people don't get how this. affects their everyday lives and I think. this is why I'm so passionate about it. is sometimes some of these conversations. seem so highulutin that you think you. you're in a conversation that doesn't. affect you know people are like ah. Federal Trade Commission and and what. mergers why do I care if there's a. merger why do I. >> simple simple one if you look at the. power of something getting too. You have your card service, your Uber. app or whatever you use.

People forget when Uber came in, they. did something really slick. They said, "We're going to charge prices that are. far below. what the industry rates are." So, they. were beating every taxi in every city in. terms of price. What generally happens. when prices are lower? Demand goes up. People say, "I want to use that. service." everyone starts using that. service. It is greater in many ways than. a taxi service because it finds you. It. doesn't racially discriminate the way. taxis were often times found to be.

doing, etc., etc., etc. It's it is great. because there was Uber and taxis. And. then what starts to happen? The taxi. industry starts going down, starts going. down, starts going down. It loses its. value. It dies. For all intents and. purposes, it dies. >> When you walk in New York City now, you. barely see the color yellow in the. streets anymore. the way it used to be. So, it dies. Uber goes, "Oh, competition. dead. Great. Let's get these prices. going now, people.".

>> Mhm. >> And now Uber starts taking the prices. up. Taking the prices up. Taking the. prices up. >> And now you have no recourse. You have. no You can't even say, "I do not wish to. catch an Uber. I'm going to wait for a. taxi. Go wait. See how long it takes. now.". >> There is no taxi to pick you up. And we. can we can we can move this to every. industry. Every mother who's looking at. the price of diapers. >> and going, "Why do diapers cost this. much now? I can't seem to find them. cheaper anywhere." Yeah. It's because.

even the extras that you're looking at. are not extras anymore. It's one company. that's selling you the diapers. You go. uh like one of the ones that really got. me was um when we look at like diseases. in food. >> Mhm. Even if we take it away from. economics, if you look at. farms, you know, that have chickens or. cows or anything like that, eggs, we don't realize that as humanity, we.

are closer and closer to the precipice. of just having our food supply wiped out. because we've allowed one company. basically to own so much of it. Forget the money now. Just think of our. survivability. >> Mhm. >> If one company owns the majority of eggs. that we have. >> and they have these laws. >> that make it illegal for you to now have. an egg that is somehow similar to their. egg and they go, "Our egg is our egg.". And if your chicken comes from our egg,

then our chicken, it's our chicken now. It's not your chicken. It's. >> Well, that companyy's called CalFresh. Nearly all the eggs in the grocery. fridge come from them. Yes. And we were. all having egg discourse about eggs. being expensive. It's cuz CalFresh. raised the price. >> There you go. >> They said it was bird flu. They said it. was this and that. Just CalFresh turned. the knob. >> Yes. But the thing is if there was a. disease. >> Sure. >> that affected that specific type of egg. >> Yeah. >> And wiped them all out or there was a. disease in them because we've allowed. CalFresh to become [music] this thing.

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I feel like the average consumer. I feel. helpless. >> I feel like there's nothing much I can. do. But there's one point that you made. that actually piqued my interest when we. were speaking about um boycots in the. township. >> Yeah. >> During a part date, I think it was the. 70s and the 80s. And there used to be. another form of it called a stay away. >> Yeah. >> So in a stay away, you don't take public. transport. >> You don't go to the factories. You don't. go. >> general strike. >> General strike. Yes. >> But those two went together. And you. were so right by saying that it doesn't. mean people just because they didn't buy.

washing powder, they didn't wash their. clothes, >> right? >> Just because they on a stairway, they. couldn't move around. It was sort of. organized for people to be able to get. by, but for the corporation to feel the. impact. And I feel like as time went on. and as things happened, we as the. consumers were made unaware accompllices. by being shareholders in companies. >> H there's Yeah, I think there's. something to that. I do I do think. there's also just this neoliberal idea. that um the best way to participate in.

politics is to vote with your wallet and. you know billionaires love this idea. because their wallet's thicker than all. of our wallets put together and so. that's the one vote they can there's. like whatever a thousand billionaires. right but they can win every wallet vote. they can't win any other kind of. [laughter] vote so it's very convenient. that we've been told you know your. consumption choices that what you should. really do if you're angry at Elon Musk. is agonize endlessly about whether you. should have a Twitter account right and. not that's what not try to act. politically not try to like say oh well.

maybe he shouldn't be allowed to buy. more companies maybe his public uh. contracts with the federal government. should be canceled maybe the ways that. he's materially misled his shareholders. should be prosecuted more vigorously no. no it's all about whether you have a. Twitter account. >> is this why Elon Musk called you a. scourge on humanity. >> he did call me a scourge on humanity but. it was because I told him that I thought. it was a different thing [laughter] he. he was like pray so I'm a my other life. I'm a science fiction novelist. Uh, and uh, I write when I'm anxious. I. wrote like nine books during lockdown. So, I write books for all ages. I have a.

new middlegrades book coming out next. year. I mean, everything, picture books, tech criticism, everything. And, um, he. was uh, singing the praises of a writer. who I knew a little but quite very much. admired, a guy called Ian Banks, died. very tragically of cancer, who was a. utopian socialist. Okay. And he was. like, I consider myself a utopian. socialist in the model of Ian Banks. And. I was like, "Uh, no offense, but I knew. Ian. He was an ardent trade unionist and. you're a union buster." And he's like, "Well, in Ian Banks's novels, I didn't.

see any unions." And I'm like, "Yes, these novels are set 100,000 years in. the future in which there are galactic. brain artificial intelligences piloting. spaceships the size of planets with 100. million 100 billion people living on. them. The fact that he didn't see a need. for unions there [laughter] tells you. nothing about whether he thinks we need. a union here." And he was like, "Well, if Ian Banks could have seen one of my. Tesla factories, he would have seen that. we don't need unions either." And I. said, "Uh, again, no offense. I think. there is a difference between traveling. faster than the speed of light and. eating out marginal gains in the.

production of electric vehicles." Damn. And that is when he called me a scourge. [laughter] on humanity. >> Uh, damn. >> But I wanted to pop the stat cuz this. started with talking about. >> blocky after that. >> Yeah. Yeah, he did. Yeah. >> I'm always fascinated by that that side. of Elon, >> the blocking butt. He's he's like he is. the like number one champion of free. speech and jokes and opinions and all. this. >> until he doesn't have a rebuttal for you. and then he's like block you racist go. away block. >> right. >> gone right. >> you like I don't understand how the.

owner of one of the world's largest town. squares as we now call it blocks people. >> oh I understand but to me. >> he's a thin skinned baby. >> yes but to me it's the antithesis do you. understand what I'm saying. >> yeah Yeah. Yeah. It is the antithesis of. the thing. You have come in and said. everyone should say what they want and. we should do this. >> Open mic club. >> Let's go. Let's go. Let's go. Yeah. >> You're too open mic now. The mic is too. open. [laughter]. >> Like it's it's such a it's but but but.

it actually that's something I wonder is. like where do you think where did the. fracture occur? Because. I can use Elon Musk, you know, I can. talk about like founders of Google. I. can talk. Yeah, man. I won't lie. A lot. of what they set out to do was noble and. beautiful. It was brilliant. >> It always does like that. >> I will always be grateful to Elon Musk. because of what he did with electric. cars because I love driving an electric. car and I think it's better for. everyone. I won't get you started.

[laughter]. >> You You You're a hater or a lover? >> You're a hater. >> I'm traumatized. >> Can I tell you? He didn't He didn't hate. He didn't hate He doesn't hate electric. cars. No, I'm traumatized by one. >> He he he drove mine and then like the. experience of trying to charge an. electric car and then like where and how. and. >> I wish I knew you then. >> cuz I think there's a conspiracy when it. comes to these chargers. >> Well, and you know, one of the things. that happened in the Biden. administration is they forced Musk to. open up access to Tesla chargers for. non-Tesla cars. They said, "We're going.

to put federal dollars through the. Inflation Reduction Act into building. out a federal network of cars uh car. chargers, >> but they will only work with cars that. uh whose manufacturers don't block. people from using their chargers. >> So, if you have a charging network and. you don't let third parties use it, then. we won't let you use the public one. We. won't let your the cars you make use the. public one." And so, Elon Musk opened up. the the charger network. That was Tim. Woo, who's a great guy who worked in the. Biden White House. He and I have known. each other since we were 9 years old. We.

went to the same elementary. We played. Dungeons and Dragons together. Yeah, >> that's right. >> But but this is you see that that thing. you're talking about. So I so I go like. >> this this I'm I'm constantly grateful, you know, to many of these visionaries for some of. the things they've inspired and created. But it's interesting that phrase you. said, Eugene, it always starts like. that. >> Mhm. >> What What changed? What changed to take. >> I'm going to make a bet and say 90%.

>> of the people who ran or were the top. people in Silicon Valley 90% of them at. least they were progressive. They were. trying to create a utopian society. They. were pushing towards this idea of us. sharing and having more and being more. and all of this. >> And then now they've turned into like. sort of like the oil barons of old. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What happened? It's. the last scene of that incredible. documentary Animal Farm where you look. from the pigs to the men and the men to. the pigs and you can't see the. difference. So, you know,

I think it's related to this point that. I was making about how we're seeing this. surge of antitrust. We go, like I said, in Europe there in Japan and Korea, they. went after Apple in and and uh. Singapore, I forget what the case was, Australia, it was uh about uh Facebook. and and Google and the news companies. uh but also in China where they said to. the big tech companies in China, you. can't block little companies from. interoperating with you so that they can. enter the market. And I I think that um. it is remarkable that we've had this. surge of antitrust stuff because as you.

say, these people are currently like. they they're definitely in the stage in. life where they don't see any reason why. this death match should be stopped. Yeah. Right. Because they're winning. Um, and there is this like incredible. current in the air where people are just. sick of this, right? They're just like. really angry. As you said, people are. they don't know why, but they're really. angry. >> And we sometimes talk about like. political will. And we, it's hard to. know what a political will is, but I. think it's like the wind where you don't.

see it until something gets in the way. And so what we've seen is like anytime a. politician sticks their head up and goes. maybe we should do something about. concentrated corporate wealth all of a. sudden there's this scale you know that. that just like sort like it's like they. put a little sail like a little. handkerchief size sail and suddenly the. ship that's been become in the doldrums. for 20 years is like scutting across the. seas right and so there is this like. great upwelling of anger at what's. happened and I think it's because. >> we decided that we wouldn't stop.

monopolies from forming. and absent some kind of muscular. government action, monopolies will. always form. That that monopolies. they're not it's not because they're. efficient, but because the parochial. interests of the people who own firms. are always better served by cooperating. with other people who own large firms. by, for example, buying each other and. so on than they are by competing. When. you compete, Peter Teal calls it. wasteful competition. You erode your. cash basis, right? Like when when Google.

gives Apple $20 billion a year not to. enter the search market, it's like the. Pope dividing up the new world, right? They're saying, "Well, we're not going. to compete with you where you are. You're not going to compete where us. where we are." The $20 billion is less. cost us less than uh than than um it. would take if you were competing. directly with us. But it also saves you. more than you would have to pay in. capital expenditures if you were to. develop your search engines. So, we're. all good. We're like this is this is us. sort of conspiring. You know, Adam. Smith, who's the father of capitalism, he has this famous quote, you know, men.

of the same trade seldom gather, but the. conversation turns to a contrivance to. fix prices, >> right? Uh like there's just this. incredible temptation. And so without. state intervention, this will happen. >> and it's just very hard to resist. temptation. Like I think that like there. comes this point where every like you've. you built this self-licking ice cream. cone. It's kind of just it's like the. money is the money is just piling up, you know, and like and and you know, you. you're supposedly your you're fierce.

competitors with these people, but you. all kind of know each other. And. especially like maybe not the founders, but in the upper ranks, you know, especially when there's only a small. number of firms, everyone like job hops. from one firm to another cuz often, you. know, like the VP can't become an SVP in. that firm because there isn't someone. ready to quit or die. And so they get. head-hunted laterally and they move back. and forth. everyone moves diagonally. >> and and and so like they're all like. godp parentents to each other's. children. They're like executives of. each other's estates. They play pickle. ball. They're in the same polycule, you. know? Uh and and like they just end up.

with this kind of emergent consensus. Yeah. Are you a pickle ball man? >> Oh, the sport of the corrupt. [laughter]. >> I'm no I'm no pickle baller. What a. self-licking ice cream. I can't wait to. use that phrase. I'M LIKE I'M DYING. [laughter]. TO USE the phrase like. >> back at this again. So in in South. Africa currently there's a commission. that is investigating corruption within. first municipalities start with the. police. >> then it became with municipalities and. obviously the tender system and the.

business dealings that is being done and. it so came out that it's not that a. person can go whistleblow to their boss. because in most cases the boss is the. corrupt person and you can't go to the. police and find a constable sitting at a. charge office and what's the charge? I. think something is going on at my. company but regulators play a big. important part. So competitors that. didn't get the deal are the ones that. blow the whistle, then someone on the. inside who knows exactly how the deal. went is the one that can give the. competitor evidence to go to the. regulator. Then it turns into a court.

case and then charges can get pressed. But here's my thing. The average person. sitting there knowing what they don't. know, what can they do? Because like you. said with the stairways it was easy. With the boycotts it was easy. There was. another one called the go slow where you. show up at work but you actually don't. do anything. >> Go slow. Yeah. Yeah. They're sometimes. called right work to rule go slows. They're all the Yeah. the same thing. You follow all the rules, >> but you're not really doing anything, >> which means you don't do anything. >> But here we are now. We finding. ourselves here and as you guys speak, I. know you guys love tech so much and he's. done a good job over time of explaining.

tech to me and you explaining another. side of it, which is the dark evil. self-licking ice cream version. >> And I'm like, what can I do? So, I do. know I'm. >> I have an answer for you. Uh it it it's. kind of grounded in this punch line of. uh my favorite joke from Eastern Canada. The punch line is if you wanted to get. there, I wouldn't start from here, right? Like we had we had a more robust. enforcement system like before we. decided monopolies were efficient and we. were just going to tolerate them. So. that happened in the Reagan years. Have.

you ever heard you've ever heard anyone. say, "Oh, that thing is so screwed up. It's really borked." You ever heard. borked? No. It's a It's a saying about. something that's really bad. It's named. after this guy who was a judge, Robert. Bourke, who Reagan tried to put on the. Supreme Court, and he handled his. confirmation hearing so badly that now. we say things that are really screwed. up. [laughter]. >> I didn't even know that that was. possible in America. Oh, yeah. >> I thought you always get on the Supreme. Court. >> No. Yeah. No, this was before pre Susan. Collins. So, uh, Bour's big idea was. that monopolies are good and that. they're efficient and that like if all.

of us are using the same search engine, that must mean that it's the best search. engine. Wouldn't it be weird to use. public funds to punish a firm for. pleasing the public? >> So he was like, we should just allow. these companies to get too big to fail. and and they'll never become too big to. care. It'll be fine. The market will. correct it. So when we decided to start. tolerating monopolies, we got. monopolies, right? We got them in. everything. Media clearly, right? Five. five publishers, four studios, three. labels, two companies that control the. apps, and one company that does the.

ebooks and the audio books, right? It's. like why giving creative workers more. copyright has not helped because like. it's like giving bullied kids extra. lunch money, right? Like they just say, "Oh yeah, you've got an extra 20 years. of copyright. We'll just put that in our. contract now, right? We're not going to. give you more money." So we had this we. had this idea that monopolies maybe were. efficient and they're not. And so we. need to fix that. >> And we've been here before. >> You know the Lenny Bruce sketch about. before there's a crime a law there has. to be a crime. No. >> And he does this whole thing about like. how is it that we have a law against. having sex with a chicken? Someone must.

have had sex with a chicken first, right? And and so the way we got these. laws, it wasn't like someone came down. off a mount with two stone tablets and. said, >> "We have to stop these firms from. engaging in merging.". >> They watched it happen. Okay. And they. reacted to it. >> They were in a situation, if anything, worse than the situation we're in, right? Uh and this, you know, from the. 1890s to the to the through the guilded. age, right? This was this was the the. period in which you had the robber. barons, the trust the the the trusts.

It's why we call it trustbusting. So. what used to happen is like John D. Rockefeller would say, "Hey, everybody. who makes oil, we're going to start a. new company called a trust. And if. you've got a 16% share of all the oil in. the country, you get a 16% share of the. trust. If you got 20%, you get 20%. And. then I'm going to run the trust. All the. oil companies will be one company that. I'll run. They'll have different names, but I'll run them all. And just we'll. disperse the profits according to your. market share. As of now, there was like. a whiskey trust and a steel trust and a. coal trust and a everything in the.

country was run this way. Uh the first. antitrust law 1890, Robert Sherman, he. was a senator. He's the brother of. Tecumpsa Sherman, a guy burned down. Atlanta. And he said, "If we would not. tolerate a king, we should not tolerate. an autocrat of trade with the power to. fix the price of the necessities of. life.". >> And so we get this law in 1890. It was. in response to the uh rail companies, but by 1912, we used it to break up. Standard Oil. And the way that we broke. up Standard Oil, which was the. [clears throat] most corrupt, most. oppressive company in the history of the.

world, I I think even like right up. there with like the Dutch East India. Company, the Hudson's Bay Company, really horrible, horrible firm with a. strangle hold on the planet. You you may. have seen these old editorial cartoons. of like a fanged octopus whose head kind. of looks like an oil Derek with its arms. wrapped around the world. >> I think I've seen images like that. >> Yeah. Gilded Age. There are also weird. Nazi images that are also this that are. bad, but this was before the Nazis. Got. it. Got it. Half a century before the. Nazis. So, this woman um Ida Tarbell, who was the first woman in America to. get a science degree. She was a. biologist.

>> She was a generationally brilliant. ortor, sort of the the Obama of her age. She later became a really important. suffragist. Um her father was a. Pennsylvania oilman who'd been destroyed. by John D. Rockefeller. And she had a. grudge. And so, she researched what John. D. Rockefeller was doing. And. unfortunately she was working before. they invented titles. So her book was. called the history of the Standard Oil. Company volumes one and two. >> But it was published in Collier's. magazine which was a nationally read. magazine one of the most important. magazines at the time. And it was so.

infuriating to people. >> that they demanded action from their. political classes. >> Wow. >> And by 1912 we broke it up. Now this is. living memory. 1912 people who were. alive in 1912 are dead now. But there. are people today alive who worked under. those people. Yeah. Right. And there are. people alive who worked under those. people. We we are not reinventing the. lost art of a fallen civilization here. No one's asking us to like figure out. how to embalm a pharaoh or build like. pyramids without power tools, right? This is stuff that we can do. And the. point about this political will is it is.

surging all over the world. We can't. solve this as individuals, right? You're. not going to shop your way out of it. We. can't solve it by fixing the problems of. these people who have talked themselves. into becoming these like ketamine adult. failures, right? Uh [laughter]. but we can fix it by fixing the policy. environment, right? The initic policies. that create the inshitta scene, the era. in which everything turns to We. know what those policies were. We. decided to stop enforcing antitrust. laws. So companies form cartels and. monopolies and duopolies. And then they.

influenced all of our other policies. So. we got IP policies like the ones that. make it illegal to repair modified. technology. We got um other policies. like the pharma policies that stop South. Africa from making anti-retrovirals at. the height of the AIDS crisis. We got. the the progyny of those which stopped. the global south from making their own. um mRNA vaccines at the height of the. pandemic. >> We've got that with seeds as well people. from growing food. >> Yeah. >> People that that are experiencing famine. around the world. Many of them cannot. now plant seeds to grow food because the. seeds have now been monopolized which is.

one of the craziest. >> come on guys. How how can we allow a. company to own seeds? Not even like. their seed per se, but just a seed that. they can argue is very similar. Yeah. Like the lineage of that seed. Like. they're like, "No, we have the ancestors. of your seeds." Not the seed. >> Our seed is related to. >> We didn't sell you the seed, but the. seed came from a plant that we bred or. genetically engineered. >> So the seed came from our seed, >> but not came from a plant that came from. a plant that came from a plant. Like. they own the life form. No.

>> So how are they stopping people from. planting? >> No, they they don't stop you from. planting. But if you grow any of it, they come after you and the governments. around the world help them enforce this. against even. >> come to your farm and testics of your. >> pl there is a member of the legislative. man. >> You playing games, bro. >> There was a member of the legislative. assembly. So like an MP or like a a. congressman in Alberta who was a farmer. who had this happen. His neighbor seed. blew onto his land. I remember the story. >> and he was shut down by the federal. government of Canada because they have.

an obligation under wipo treaties under. these UN treaties that protect. intellectual property. They have an. obligation to enforce Monsanto's patents. in Canada and so he Monsanto shut him. down. This is happening in India there. uh suicides among farmers are very high. in India and a lot of it has to do with. the rising prices of these foundational. inputs to agriculture seed and. fertilizer and and and pesticides. So. it's it's. we the parochial preferences of.

individual firms and the people who run. them and their shareholders and you said. we all own shares in these companies but. really like the median American worker. has $955 saved for retirement. So, we. don't own shares in all these companies. >> No, no, no. I think what No, I think. what Eugene meant was he meant. metaphorically they've made us. shareholders because we have the phone. We shop. we shop on their on their platforms. And. then. >> and your bank has sort of told you you. can buy this and then we feel like we.

say well like you knew when you bought. your phone that you could only install. Apple apps on it and you knew when you. bought the ebook that it wouldn't belong. to you and so on and so on. And my. rebuttal to that is like you knew when. you entered the stream of commerce that. since time immemorial if you sell me. something it's mine. Right? If you're so. emotionally fragile that you can't. believe that when I buy a device I. decide what software is on it. Then. maybe you're in the long maybe maybe. it's not that I bought the wrong thing. Maybe you shouldn't be in this line of. business. Right? Like I I'm I'm a.

writer. I work in books. I'm a. recovering book seller and library. worker too. I I love books and like the. thing where when I sell you a book it. belongs to you. >> That's not just older than like. copyright. It's older than printing. It's older than bound books. It's older. than paper. We have scrolls on papyrus. >> that this was the deal for, right? So it. cannot have come to as a surprise to. anyone who decided to sell books that. the deal with the book is you bought it,

you own it, right? It's your goddamn. book. And so like when someone says to. me, "Oh, why did you buy the ebook?" We. had the fine print. It very clearly. said, "By buying this book, you agree. that I'm allowed to come over to your. house and punch your grandmother, wear. your underwear, and make long-distance. calls, and eat all the food in your. fridge." You knew when you clicked, I. agree. >> Great one. That was really a great. tradition. [laughter]. >> You know, I I never when you speak about. farmers and obviously when you speak. about the the seed genetics, I never I. was speaking to someone who's in. agriculture.

>> Uhhuh. and they're in agrich to be more. precise and they were saying that. >> planting season farmers no matter how. much money they make they still have to. go to the banks to ask for money. >> and I never understood. >> why would you if you're running a. business and you can afford to fund your. own business why would you need to go. borrow. >> and now it makes sense although this is. much older so this is one of my weird. special subjects uh the history. >> you only have one. >> yeah yeah yeah the [laughter] history of. debt right so the first money. We have.

before we had coin money, we had debt. ledgers. And debt ledgers were because. of agriculture in ancient Babylon. And. so if you wanted to plant a crop, you. would have the money for the crop after. it came in, but you needed the money for. the fertilizer and the farm labor and. everything be before it came in. And so. there was a credit market in ancient. Babylon and they would record how much. you owed and then you would pay it back. out of the out of the harvest. And the. thing is that no matter how good a. farmer you are, sometimes the crop will. fail, right? they'll be a locust,

there'll be whatever. And so run that. long enough. >> and eventually you end up with a uh. group of hereditary creditors and a. group of hereditary debtors because if. you can't pay the debt, then you've got. to roll the debt and then you owe then. you will never get ahead, right? You. have by the time you've like lost two or. three crops in your career, >> you're perpetually behind. And then if. that happens long enough, the. agricultural output of the country which. is the most important output it has. becomes the play thing of the creditors. who are like actually I want more.

ornamental flowers for my table not more. staple crops and then the society fails. And so Babylon's answer to this is. something that persisted all through the. bronze age called the Jubilee which was. that at fixed intervals so every 50. years plus when certain occurrences. happened like a change of the king all. debts were forgiven. >> and this persisted through Oh, what? >> Yeah. And this persisted through Rome. It persisted through like like all of. all the civilizations of antiquity. Saw. this. >> Yeah. Because they they had this problem. over and over again that when you have a.

group of creditors, they start to. command the productive output of. debtors. And these are self-reinforcing. phenomena where the creditors get richer. and the debtors get poorer and more. beholden. And creditors are not good. planners, right? They're just not good. planners of civilization. They have. personal interests. you know that like. this is one of the the problems of. letting people amass too much power is. that even the smartest person is prone. to folly. You know, Henry Ford at one. point was worried about um rubber for. tires. And so he was like, I'm going to.

build my own rubber plantations in. Brazil in a town called Ford Landia in. the middle of the jungle and I'm going. to. >> It was already called that. >> No, no, no. He built it. >> Oh, okay. Wow. >> And and he was like, I'm going to take. I'm going to build a copy of Dearborn, Michigan, which is the company town in. Brazil. And he so he got the same firm. of architects. So he had built this town. in Michigan. He was going to build it in. Brazil. And he was like, "All right, I. want you to make it ready." And they. said, "Okay, but um south southern. hemisphere, right? So we put the windows. in the other side of the building." It's. like, "Don't be stupid. We put the.

windows on on this side of the building. because it's going to be just like. Dearborn.". >> No. >> And and that was it. They they did it, right? Because like even the SMARTEST. GUY IS REALLY DUMB some of the times. And if there's no one there to call you. on your you crawl up your own. and die, right? Like this just. everybody has seen it. Everybody knows. someone. You must know this through. media, right? You must know people who. just got to the top of their game and. turn into power. But this is this is. this is this is common with everyone. Like um often say this when it comes to.

billionaires in particular. It is. interesting to me that we assume that. somebody having a copious amount of. wealth means that they also have a. copious amount of knowledge about. everything. And I'm like, "No, you. realize you can be in the position where. you made a ton of money because you. knew one thing very well.". >> Yeah. >> That's it. >> And you got very lucky. >> Yeah. Yeah. No, no. I mean, when Mark. Cuban [laughter] said that on the. podcast, he said Mark Cuban was like, "Yo, yo, yo, >> he said I I He said, "If you took all my. money away tomorrow, I could go out. there and I know how to make money.".

Said, "But I can't be a billionaire. again.". >> Right. >> He said he said, "Don't don't get it.". He said, "Don't the billionaire part is. extremely extremely lucky." Selling. Broadcast.com to Yahoo required that. SoftBank, which is their VC who gave all. the money, who then gave all the money. to Uber, who then now giving all the. money to OpenAI, that they be there like. being they are the sucker at every. table. Soft. >> It really is weird. Why is Soft Bank. like this? >> One guy, Masayoshi's son, he's he is a a. dumb man with access to a lot of money. >> But but how do they stay around for so.

long? I don't get. >> Well, now it's the Saudis giving it to. him who are like they are they are the. Beverly Hillbillies. >> Do you know the story of Soft Bank? >> Soft [clears throat] Bank is crazy. I. mean obviously you know the details. No, but every time you hear a story. >> of like a boom a boom and a bust. >> in like a bubble. So you you'll hear. like. >> people were making hundreds of millions. and they were selling their companies. and then the next day they were all. worth nothing. >> Somehow many of these junctures the. person who's left with nothing is a. company called SoftBank. >> Please please break it down.

>> He's the Forest Gump of shitty. investments. [laughter]. SO THIS GUY Masayoshi Sun, he's just. very good at talking dumb billionaires. out of lots of money which he then pumps. into companies where they inflate. bubbles and they do have exits. sometimes, right? But they have the. exit, but then then the firms are worth. nothing. I mean, Yahoo bought every. promising startup of the web 2.0 era and. destroyed it, >> right? And he gave them the money to do. it and there was a period where their. stock gains were high and I don't know. whether his investors got out or what. whether when he got out, but you know, Yahoo was destroyed by this string of.

acquisitions, right? like Yahoo had a. business and they turned it into an. acquisition factory. >> and that's what killed them. >> That did that did nothing, right? That. that just destroyed business after. business in part because when you buy. all the competitors uh and you put them. under one roof then they fight with each. other. >> Yeah. And and another thing people take. for granted is this. If your business. starts off moving in a direction as in. it is creating or doing something. Yeah. Right. >> And then you start becoming more focused. on your competitive competitors and you.

start buying them up. Seems like a smart. idea. The thing that people forget is. you now own those businesses. >> Yeah. >> So you have to do one of two things. You. either have to like shut them down, >> but that also requires like work and. it's money that you're losing or you. have to figure out how you integrate. them into your business, which is a. terrible idea most of the time because. they have their own culture, they have. their own systems, they have their own. people, they have their own ideas. So. now you go, do we take their marketing. department? Uh do do we take their head.

office? Do we keep ours? Do we not? And. now you know what you've done? >> You have lost focus on what you were. doing, >> your original business. >> Do you get what I'm saying? It's the. equivalent of somebody saying, "I am. going to. date or marry every single person who I. think might be. >> competition again. [laughter]. >> You're a scourge on humanity, Cory.". >> But literally, you go like, "You know. what? Anyone I see as competition, I'm. I'm just going to No, they're going to. I'm going to I'm going to marry them. I'm going to bring them in. I'm going to. marry." Then it's like, "Yeah." And then. you're going to end up in a house that.

has like 50 spouses because you were. trying to stop those spouses from being. competition that will make them happy. because you're like, "No, I just don't. want them as competition for my spouse.". >> Then it's like, "No, no, just focus on. your spouse." No, no, no, no. That that. person might become competition for my. spouse. I'm going to you're also married. to me. You're also married to me. You're. also married to me. No one's competition. for my spouse. And then at the end of. it, you now have 50 spouses in one house. and things are falling apart and you. wonder why, >> right? >> It it you lose your focus as well. >> So yeah. So I mean Brandeise called this. the curse of bigness. He says that when.

firms get too big they start fighting. with each other. The mo the the locus of. competition moves from uh external to. for for firms external to the firm. Right. So like you're like I want Google. to be better than the other search. engines and then it becomes divisions in. Google saying I want my division to do. better. >> Right. >> So the culture moves inward. >> That's right. And so it's kind of like. an autoimmune disorder. Right. You have. these kind of princlings who are like, you know, I want to especially like, you. know, the big Hollywood firms, big. studios, right? They've got like VPs,

presidents, VPs, or no, it's like. directors, VPs, SVPs, EVPs, and. presidents. And each one is like an. order of magnitude richer than the other. one. So like the career earning. opportunities to go from one tier to the. other are in the millions or tens of. millions. And so there's a lot of. looking over at this SVP's underlings to. see if any of them are about to do. something that might bring that division. to prominence and then screwing them. And so there's a lot of like. backstabbing. I mean, you've worked in.

the studio system, right? You know what. this is like. They constantly rat. each other, right? Because they. that that's their major locus of. competition. >> But you see, this is I didn't I didn't. think of it through that lens. I have. noticed at times people are working in. companies but not in tandem. They are. either actively sabotaging each other or. letting the other person fall into a. pothole. >> That's right. >> Because they're like, "If that happens, then I'm going to look better." But I. never considered it. >> Yeah. Yeah.

>> an institutional idea. We're going to. continue this conversation right after. this short break. >> [music]. >> You know what I think of with all of. this is I go, I'm so sad that Monopoly, the board game, huh, >> never achieved it's it achieved all of. the popularity but none of the message. >> Uhhuh. >> Cuz you played Monopoly, I'm assuming. we've all played Monopoly.

>> I don't know a single person, >> right, >> who has finished a game of Monopoly. And I also do not know a single person. who has enjoyed the ending of that game. of Monopoly unless they were the last. person with the money. >> Sure. >> Like you put people down for a game of. Monopoly. I don't care who you are. Put. them down. Start playing. Good times. Oh. yeah. Give me my 200. Woohoo. I just. passed go. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Everyone's. having a great time. >> And then people start buying properties. Everyone's friends until everyone has a. property. Everyone's just like, "Oh, I.

can't wait to buy this. You also can't. wait. You should buy that. Oh yeah. Yo, the blue ones look good on you." Yeah. And people go around people and people. start buying. People start buying. And. then really quickly in the game, you. notice a shift in the table. >> There are the halves. >> The halves and have not. >> and the have nots. >> And what makes the game so powerful is. not just that you have the halves and. the haveotss. You see how unfair it is. >> for the cuz now you get to a point where. you add those little hotels and you know.

what I mean? You just build this thing. up. Build this thing up. >> Wealth gets wealth. you do less, right? People do more. You even get to the. point where the person who has is like, I don't even feel like rolling. You guys. just roll and come to me and you're. gonna have to pay me. >> for just existing. >> And even the conversation of the players. that have, >> they have more in common with each other. now. >> Oh, you completely. Why don't I give you. the railway station cuz I want you you. should own all of the utilities and. travel hubs. Let me have that street. And they're so cordial with each other.

They're so lovely. And then like here. it's like [laughter] can please can can. you can you break a hundred for a shut. up? Put it on the table. I don't trust you. Put it down BEFORE I TOUCH IT. I DON'T. WANT TO TOUCH THAT YOUR DIRTY. OKAY. I'll give you 95. What do you mean. you'll give me 95? I'll give you take it. or leave it. I'll give you 95. But it's. 100. Do you want the change on Okay, fine. It's It's amazing how that game. >> Uhhuh. >> shows us. >> Yeah. >> why we don't want monopoly power. You.

know the story of the game though? It it. was created as the landlord's game by a. woman who was a Georgian. So or. georgists. So georgists are this weird. economic philosophy that says that all. taxes should be land taxes. They have. this it's facially plausible idea that. because land is the most scarce thing. and because appreciation of land value. is never the fault of the person who. owns the land. It's always like the. neighborhood gets more valuable. And. that's there's this like mismatch in. incentives. if you can just like own a. piece of land and your neighbors do. things and your land gets more valuable.

blah blah blah. So this georgist woman. made this game called the landlord's. game. It had two sets of rules. You. played one one cooperatively, one. competitively to produce this. pedagogical output. This traveling. salesman, played the game, stole it, sold it to Parker Brothers. >> Yo, you're lying. >> No better. This is even better. >> 100%. AND IT WAS MONOPOLY decades later. that Parker Brothers finally admitted. that this woman was the creator of the. the landlord's game monopoly. And she I. think either she or her descendants got.

a small amount of money and you know. there's like a small credit on the. Parker Brothers website for her. >> That's it. Like Yes. >> How can a game about screwing people. over come from screw over [laughter]. >> a little on the nose? Yeah. Is there is. there is there um a system or a country. or a place you've seen right now that's. like really just nailing this? >> Is is there a beacon we can look to. >> what I'm hopeful about. I don't think. there's anything that's nailing this. But I mentioned every country in the. world adopted a law like the DMCA that.

bans modification circumvention of. technology to modify it. And they did. that because the US trade representative. said if you don't do this we're going to. hit you with tariffs. >> Right. >> Well happy liberation day. >> Amazing. The tariffs came in anyways. now. And and so now there's like this. army of people out there. So you know. Jeff Bezos when he started Amazon he's. infamous for this one saying he would. say your margin is my opportunity right. so you look at the margin that Apple has. on payments or the margin that ink. inkjet printers companies have and this. is my favorite one. I know you say not. everyone uses printers but like.

>> No, but I grew up with Can I tell you. something? I'll tell you my story. So I. grew up with them cuz my mom had her own. little home business. >> Oh yeah. When I tell you Corey, the. journeys that I've been down, because. you'd buy the printer. >> and you'd be like, "Okay, this is great. We've got a printer." What they would do. often is the printer would come with. half or quarter filled cartridge. cartridges. They wouldn't tell you this. >> So, the printer wouldn't come with. enough, but and you're like, "Okay, fine. You don't buy a car with a full. tank of gas." So, I get it's fine.

>> Sure. until you go and get more. cartridges and then you find that the. cartridges cost more than the printer, right? But like but like exponentially. more like like I'm talking I remember. once we had one printer was HP printer. >> The printer itself my mom bought for 700. rand. So what like $35 somewhere there. >> and then the cartridges each color was. around 700 rand or 600. Yo, we were like. that's not possible. >> Yeah. And it won't print black if. there's no violet. Yes. [laughter] No,

they wouldn't. They So, they had to scan. if one of your cartridges is. >> So, I remember when they came out with. microchips. So, what happened was first. they just had the the ink and it was. this mission. So, then what we started. doing was my mom was like, "Yo, I met a. guy who sells the ink and what they can. do is they'll give you a syringe and. then you can do this yourself." And it's. messy, but if you can figure it out, you. got it. Okay, fine. So, we started doing. this. >> Then they came out with new printers. >> Uhhuh. And the new printers from Epson. and from HP had this little gold.

microchip on the back. Then I was like, "What are these things for?" I'll tell. you what they were for, Eugene. They. were there so that it knew when the ink. was finished. >> and what you were doing with they were. like, "Nah, bro." They're like, "No, something's changed here. This is not. the ink." Then you're like, "It's full.". And it's like, "It doesn't seem full to. me. Full of That's what it's. full of.". >> Same thing where the [laughter] car. won't recognize the part or the. ventilator won't recognize the part. It's the same thing. And it's the same. law that protects it. So, you know, the. cartel of ink print ink companies or. printer companies have monotonically. raised the price of ink. Now, ink is the.

most expensive fluid a civilian can. purchase without a government permit. At. $10,000 a gallon, it will be cheaper to. print your grocery list with a seaman of. a Kentucky Derby winning stallion. Right. So, yo, man, who's this weekend? The Kentucky. >> Yo, [laughter] Eugene. Eugene, who's. this guy? >> Get your seaman now. >> Yo, bro, who who's come get your men's. Eugene? [laughter] This man just said, yo, bro, Cy, I don't know. I wish I wish. everyone who dealt in economics and. history had your vibe because everyone. would listen to economics and history.

>> So the point is that there's a lot of. people out there who are like that. margin should be my opportunity, right? This is colored water selling at $10,000. a gallon. I'll sell it to you for $5 a. gallon. And like you say, people who are. not at the apex of technological. knowledge, I mean, I don't know your. mom, but I assume your mom was like not. a computer scientist or No, she wasn't. She definitely wasn't. Yeah. you know, and people who are not like from the. upper socioeconomic strat or whatever, they're like even more motivated than. dudes who look like this thing to figure. out how to get the most out of their. technology. First person I ever saw with.

two SIMs in their phone was a minimum. wage daycare worker at my daughter's. daycare when we grow she grew up in East. London. So, you know, these these. minimum wage daycare workers were like, I want the SIM that gets me unlimited. calling to some of my phone, >> but I also need the SIM that gets me. unlimited text. And they figured out how. to put two SIMs in their phone, right? had to get a a phone with two SIM cages. and the modified Android. >> Not not even No, no, no. What we used to. do before that was we just used to have. a SIM card inside the cover. Remember. the SIM card in the back cover and you. just knew when the time changed or you. changed, you take the case off, put the.

battery out, put the new SIM in, just. go. So, lots of people out there like. this kind of army of like would be. entrepreneurs and investors. And a lot. of these investors are like, "It'd be. really nice to get into a business whose. success isn't determined by how many. Trump coins I buy. It really invest. like AI has got this very speculative. thing like maybe we'll figure out how to. take a business that costs $1.4 trillion. and makes $50 billion and eventually. make it cost $50 billion and make $1.4. trillion. We're not sure how that's.

going to happen. If you give us $3. trillion more, maybe we'll figure it. out. Uh [laughter] but but like. meanwhile, like we know how to make. money processing payments on the iPhone. um. >> you just process the payments on the. iPhone and you charge 3% not 30% and you. lift the tax on on economic activity and. lots of people would like to have this. right like if you're a newspaper. collecting uh subscriptions through the. iPhone and you flip from 30% to 3% it's. like you got 25% more subscribers. overnight right you know this is amazing. possibilities so you have this like grow.

your business your business basically if. you are selling on these devices your. business is already less say 25% bigger. than it is. >> Yeah, that's right. So, you've got like. this army of like investors and then you. have all these technologists who are the. best and the brightest from all over the. world have gone to Silicon Valley for. two generations seeking fortune and fame. to make a dent in the universe and so. on. Now, they've all been chased out of. the country by a guy in, you know, a. gator in Oakleys, right? So, they're. looking for something cool to do. They.

know how they know how to do this stuff. They're smart, right? And so, you have. investors, you have a reason to do this, right? And then add to that the. geopolitical stuff. So Trump has been. using his tech companies to shut down. his political adversaries in other. countries. So the judge at the. International Criminal Court who swore. an arrest warrant against uh Benjamin. Netanyahu for genocide. Microsoft shut. down all of his online accounts. So he. lost his working files, his email, his. archives, his calendar. He can't recover.

his password for any of the other. services he uses cuz they all go to his. Microsoft email address which doesn't. exist anymore. really take this stuff. for granted. >> And then Trump did it again to the high. court justice in Brazil who sentenced. his ally J Binaro for attempting to. steal the election in Brazil. So then. you have people all over the world going. like, "Wait, isn't this what we were. told like China would do if we let them. run our 5G?" And then you think about. the fact that like these Russian. soldiers who stole these John Deere. tractors and took them to Chachchna, the. John Deere was able to like push an. overtheair update that permanently.

immobilized them. You're like, wait, he. could do that to any tractor. He could. do that to all the tractors, right? If. if like Trump wants to steal Greenland, he doesn't need to roll tanks into nuke. He can just like go to Greenland and. shut down the government and shut down. all the tractors and shut down all the. clouds and shut down the cloud services. and push updates to all the iOS devices. that brick them and all the Android like. he could straight of hormuse all the. licorice ompic and Lego in the world, right? With a click of a mouse. So you.

have people all over the world who are. like, "God damn, we need to get off the. American internet, right?" And so you. have a geopolitical wing of this, right? Like like NATSAC hawks, national. security hawks. You have an. entrepreneurial wing and then you have. the digital rights hippies like me. who've been banging this drum for 25. years. And remember, we started off. talking about coalitions. Yes. Well, this is a coalition the world has never. seen before, right? These three groups. of people who have three different. constituencies, three different. arguments, but we all want the same. thing. We want to transition from an. internet that is controlled by a small.

number of large American firms into one. in which we restore that technological. self-determination that made us so. excited to use the internet in the early. days where users of the technology have. the final say over how it's used where. our digital services are built on open. transparent auditable technology not. black boxes. Like again like back to the. structural engineering if you hired a a. firm of structural engineers to build. this building and they're like we're not. going to tell you the math we use to. calculate the load stresses. Don't go in. the building. >> Yeah, but we also wouldn't accept that. >> Yeah. Yeah. But you they provide you.

with the software. >> It would be the equivalent of having an. architect or an engineer or whatever. Somebody build your house and say, "We're not going to give you the. drawing. We're not going to tell you. anything about your house, >> where the HVAC is, where the electric. bought your house, but they're like, "We. will never tell you." And then you go, "But what if something goes wrong?". They're like, "Call us.". >> Yeah. It's a trade secret. Yeah. So now. you have we are like closer to a. transition. to a much better internet than we've. been in my whole career. My 25 years at. the foundation now I'm optimistic.

>> I don't mean it's I don't mean like it's. a slam dunk or whatever. And and I would. caution you off of optimism. I think. optimism and pessim wait though. Wait. cuz I [laughter] think there's I think. hope is good. I think optimism and. pessimism are are a waste of your time. But optimism and pessimism are this kind. of fatalistic belief that things are. going to get better or worse no matter. what we do. Yeah. Right. Hope is the. belief that if you materially improve. your circumstances that you can ascend a. gradient towards a world you want to. live in and as you attain that higher. vantage point there's terrain that will. be revealed to you that was oluded when.

you were down at this lower elevation. and that from that point we may be able. to take the next step right and we don't. know how far up the hill we can get we. can't see our way from A to Zed you know. I'm a novelist right so when I write I. can give you a clear clean path with a. with like a steadily rising curve of. dramatic tension and payoffs and stakes. that get to a climax and then you know. Princess Leia gives everyone a medal, right? Like that's how it works in. fiction. But in the real world, it's. messy. You go up two steps, you go down. one because you reached a dead end, you. do a traversal, you go up again, you get.

stuck there for a while, then you find. your way up again. But so long as. there's a move you can make, there's. always more hope. And the moves we can. make now, weirdly thanks to Comrade. Trump, who appears to be doing practis, the moves we can do now are much more. aggressive than any of the moves we had. available to us forever. >> That's fascinating. >> And so I am full of hope. I I am I'm not. a happy person. I'm not an optimistic. person. I'm a very sad and frightened. person, but I am more hopeful than I've.

been in my whole professional life. >> Well, can I tell you something, Corey? You have made me a happy person. I think. I can speak for my colleague here when I. say you've made us happy people cuz you. you've made like no you've yeah you've. left us with like a oh yeah let's go. let's go do this thing. >> and you know it we'll do it. >> if you want to make change join a polity. get involved like join a union form a. union get involved in local politics. turns out local politics determine. whether you have flock cameras and that. determines whether your neighbors are. going to be taken to a goolog right get.

involved in local politics cuz that's. still not totally unshitified and it. still is responsive to people. >> because it's So many now. You just made. me realize that. >> That's where local politics because it's. so fractured. It's it's the 200. businesses. >> Yeah. >> National politics is one of two. Local. politics is like. millions of them. And join the. Electronic Frontier Foundation, the. nonprofit I've worked for for most of my. adult life. EFF.org. We off EFF. Different. >> Join the EFF. Not that EFF.

>> Join You Heard EF. Join the EFF. [laughter]. What a slick way to get us in. Join the. not the economic freedom [laughter]. great. >> the electronic frontier foundation. We've been around for 35 years. I don't. know how long the [laughter] the. economic freedom fighters have been. around. I think we had it first. >> 12ish. >> Yeah. I think we were there first, but. they they have cool berets. I have they. do have cool berets. They they've got. the saratoral style down. We all dress. like Linux nerds, but they they dress. they're they're sharp. Um but yeah, join.

EFF. We've got lots of ways to get. involved. Uh, we have fought the most. important court battles and activist. fights over digital rights. Like the. reason you have cryptography that like. will keep a secret on your phone is. because we sued the NSA because they. wouldn't let civilians have it. The. reason you need a warrant to read email. if you're a cop is because we sued the. Secret Service. Like this is us, you. know, we've been we've been doing this. since the [snorts] very earliest days of. the internet. And and uh we don't win. all of our fights. In fact, we lose a. lot of them because some fights you just.

fight because you can't not fight them. even when you're vastly overmatched. But. we win a surprising number of our. fights. And when I joined EFF, there. were six of us. There's like 110 of us. now. Uh we working internationally. Um. like I say, I I work with our allies in. South Africa on their copyright. implementation. Um, you know, we're. we're and we've we've now become part of. a huge constellation of these digital. rights groups internationally and in the. US and and so, you know, I like to think.

that's because of our leadership. I I. I've I've been there now, as I say, 25. years. I'm 55, so so most of my adult. life. And um I can't imagine what the. world would be like without EFF in it. This is amazing. >> Before you go, actually, let's do this. >> Let's let's let's play a little game. that that I think will help a lot of. people. >> Okay. I'm going to list a product or an. industry. >> and then you tell us how it's being. shified. and no but but rather no you know what I. want to do is not why I feel sad but. rather just to help people understand.

how it's affecting cuz you know some. people go ah tech tech's not my thing. right. >> and some people might go ah the finance. industry that's not but I just want you. to explain as quickly as possible how. each like vertical sort of affect people. so so let's go um so let's start with. technology like phones computers etc. like How is that being shitified and. what? >> So, lots of different ways. Consumables, right? Like ink and whatever, they're. they're they're now being locked, parts. are being locked, repair is being. locked, software is being locked, you. have these high service charges. associated with things like payments.

So, one thing we didn't talk about is if. the merchant is charging 30%. How are. they recouping it? >> They're charging you more. So, your. prices are getting higher. So, there's. this inflationary pressure as well. And. then, of course, now you have this stuff. where like these these things spy on you. all the time. And then when they want to. know who was at the anti-ICE march, they. can just go to them and they'll turn it. over to them. And so you have that that. like risk to democracy as well. >> Okay. Um cars. Some people like Emma, I. just like driving cars. This doesn't. bother me. I'm not a [snorts] tech. I'm. not a tech person. >> So locking out independent mechanics,

locking out third party parts, right? Spying on you in every conceivable way. from to appetite. >> Your car. >> Yeah. So your car is just like it's a. data acquisition platform on wheels. Uh. it's funny cuz they they kind of brag. about it. So Massachusetts had a ballot. initiative question one in 2020 where. 75% of of base stator voted to force the. cars to allow independent mechanics to. fix the cars. And their response was. these scare ads where they're like if. you let strangers get at the data in. your car, they'll murder you because.

there's so much data in your car. >> Well, but that's them telling on. themselves. >> Yeah. Mosilla Labs uh 2023 did a roundup. of all of the cars privacy policies and. data acquisition and they said there is. not one car they would recommend driving. on the road uh that's that's being sold. right now. >> because it's just like where you're. going when you're going there. on the radio whats. not that but Nissan weirdly so one of. the things about surveillance data is. they're all lying to each other they're.

all like saying they can do things they. can't do Nissan offers to sell data. brokers things facts about your sex life. and the smells in your car. Neither of. which I I'm pretty confident neither of. which they know, but they're just like. they're just like making stuff up that. they'll sell cuz like these are all like. grifters grifting other grifters. So. they're ripping each other off. It's. like billionaire on millionaire. violence. >> Okay. Um let's know that the speaker in. my car is not the microphone is not. >> probably not. they are like they are. looking at things like all of your. informatics you know like if you've got. um your your like Google Android car or.

Apple car like all of that stuff is. being sucked up by the car and even and. you know like some cars they're like oh. if you want to use like the advanced. features like warm your car up from. inside the house using the app that's. like five bucks a month and if you don't. pay it you can't access your car's. network. Yeah. But your car's network is. still active and it's giving data about. your car to the automaker just not to. you. And the worst is um uh uh subprime. car leasing. So like uh if you're poor. and you can't get a regular car lease, there's this whole market, it's worth a. couple trillion dollars called subprime.

car leasing. And um those cars are. fitted out with all kinds of crazy. surveillance gear. Uh and also they have. like some of them have a second stereo. system that the user can't control that. if you're a day late on your payments. just blar at top volume, you are late on. your payments. You are late on your. payments. Yeah. Yeah. And if you like go. too late, they like immobilize your car. Uh even like some of these leases will. say you can't take it across the county. line. And so the New York Times wrote. about this. There's a woman who like. took the kids on a drive to the forest.

and they went over the county line. without realizing it and then the car. wouldn't start and they were stuck in. the woods. Like [laughter] it's very. bad. And they so they repo these cars. over and over again. They're the leases. are like any subprime uh credit. arrangement. They're designed to like. balloon and make it so you can't afford. it later. So you get like a teaser rate. and a balloon rate. And so then they. repo the car and then they sell it to. another poor person. So they sell the. same car to like 10 poor people. And so. like basically like you can make loans. to progressively worse credit risks if. it's easier and easier to repo this the.

the. >> because the risk on your side is your. offloading the risk, right? So they just. have like basically this whole sideline. of repo tech Teslas. There's a dealer option where if you are. uh late on your payments, the Tesla will. lock itself up, summon the repo man to. the parking [laughter] lot, and then. blow its horn and blink its lights when. the repo man gets there and back up and. unlock its doors so they can get in. >> I would have thought it drove itself. back to the dealership. [laughter]. That's funny.

>> Uh, it's evil and funny. It's very. funny. >> Let's go into like food. >> I don't know as much about this. I mean, obviously there's the genomic stuff that. we were talking about. Um mostly what. you've got in food is just. monopolization on the grocery side. Okay. Got it. Uh and that will inflate. the prices over time. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So there's a law, the. Robinson Patman Act, that they stopped. enforcing 20 years ago, but the FTC. tried to bring a case against Pepsi and. Walmart under it. And basically it was. created when A&P grocerers started to. take over the country. And what A&P.

would do is they would demand extremely. deep dish discounts from wholesalers. And then to make it up, the wholesalers. would raise prices on everyone else, all. the mom and pops. So it accelerated the. collapse of the mom and pops into AM. And these two congressmen, Robertson and. Patman, said, "Oh, we can't allow this. This is bad." So they banned this this. conduct. And it was the decision under. Reagan to stop enforcing this that. created Walmart. So this is what Walmart. does. They demand preferential discounts. that are then result in wholesale. increases in all of their competitors.

stuff. So Walmart and Pepsi, the FTC. said what they were doing is they had. this deal where Pepsi would do what you. said Coke was doing to your mom and pops. where they would say you can't have. Pepsi products unless you charge a. certain amount for it and then Walmart. would charge less. So what they were. doing was raising the prices everywhere. but Walmart was still cheaper and they. were doing it through this Robertson. Patman preferential discounting thing. So they made the prices go up across the. entire market. Every retailer was. charging more for all Pepsi products and. that's Fredo Lelay. It's a bunch of. other things. It's so many like they're.

a big conglomerate. Uh so yeah that that. they that was like so yeah all your. groceries are really expensive because. monopoly grocerers and monopoly food. producers are cooking the market to. screw you. Cory this was too much fun man you know. what you are so amazing that I'm willing. to accept that you came up with in. shitification. >> Oh that's very nice of you. >> You are just like yo man you're just on. top of it. You're a vibe. >> Thank you. We're going to check out the. EFF, the other EFF, the other EFF.

>> EFF white is what we'll call it. [laughter]. >> We're pretty we're pretty. >> diverse. I'm. >> Don't worry about being diverse. [laughter]. >> I'll show you EFF and then you'll see. why. >> No, I've seen the picture. Look, I've. seen the Every now and again I'm like. trying to find like one of our graphics. to stick in something and rather than. like look in our repository, [laughter]. I go to, you know, like Google image. search and I type EFF, you know, and. then I get like a bunch and they got you. and then they make you search again. Then you have to search three times and. [laughter] then you pay the ads. They. even got you, Cory. And then they show. me an ad for a red beret and the next.

thing you know, [laughter] yeah, can't. escape it. This was fun. Thank you so. much. I had a great time. Appreciate. this guys. >> Thank you so much, Cory. Thank you so. much. Good luck to the next person I. speak to because. >> they want to hear the phrase. self-licking ice cream. [laughter]. >> Hey, Eugene, you had him there. Like, yeah. >> Yeah. Well, you're like me. You're a. magpie. I love the little phrases. Thank you so much for watching the. episode. If you enjoyed it, pass it on. to a friend. If you didn't enjoy it, pass it on to your friends still. Let. them suffer for a change. And don't.

forget to engage with us in the. comments. Uh if you want to suggest a. guest, maybe there's questions you want, maybe [music] there's ideas that you. have, you can chat to us. We will read. through the comments and we'll get into. it. Either way, I appreciate you taking. the time. [music] Thank you for hanging. out with us on What Now. And remember, we do this for you, so we would like to. hear from you. Till next time. Thank. you.