Why Are All Bosses Idiots? with Simon Sinek | What Now? with Trevor Noah Podcast

Okay, so here's the difference between us. If you brought Simon Sinek into your company. and you said, Simon, what is going wrong with this company? And what then Simon Sinek would try and help you to make the company better. Right. If you brought Trevor Noah into your company and said, You know, what do we. What's happening? There's a chance that I would say, You need to shut this place. Just shut it all down. You should by yourself and you people should ask yourself. why you were there and everyone should go home. That might be my solution. I mean, that's a contribution. Yes, but what I mean is, like you, I feel like you people, you bring order.

Trevor brings chaos. And this is what now with Trevor Noah. with it is that. Thank you so much for being here. you bet. Thank you. Yeah. You know, I'm a New Yorker, but I'm here now. What brought you here? Not.

I'm trying to get Trevor to move. He refuses to. Well, I mean, he's smart. No, don't say that. No, I think I. My sister and my sister and her family moved here in the middle of 2019. My sister and I are very close, and we work together. And so to help her ease into living in L.A., I got a place here and started doing the bicoastal thing. But, you know, COVID was kind of a magical gift. My niece and nephew were kids that I used to see, you know, a couple times a month when I drove up to the suburbs.

and spent a few hours at their house. And then when we went into lockdown, we were having family dinner. every single night. So your real uncle died? Yeah. Yeah, I came. I became I got very, very close with those kids. And I love living in L.A. for them. And when they're not here, I'm very bored. You do a lot of work in and around helping people connect, but oftentimes people will think of you as the guy who helps people connect. in like, an official setting, you know, like a company. and an institution and whatever. But is there anything you can help people like literally what Christiana said?

How do you how do you siblings become closer or how do they. how do they stay friends or how do they even make a friend? Because people assume you'll be friends with your siblings. Right, right, right. But a lot of siblings hate each other. Like he's he's like an uncle dad he's helping raise for sure. And the third parent, which is not sure, I would love that. Do you know what I mean? I think I'm actually it's funny you say that. people are very surprised by how close my sister and I are. They say, you know, what's it like working with your sister? Is that okay? As if it's some sort of disaster. Yeah. And for them, I think it they feel it would be.

And I don't want to work with anybody else but my sister. And she and I talk a thousand times a day and we bounce between work. and personal stuff. Yeah. And to answer your question, I don't know if there's a formula. I know we I think one of the things that. made us close as we grew up living all over the world, we also you were your only con, so we were the only know. Okay, That actually makes a lot. We were the only common friends. The other. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's actually what I said. So I need to move my kids around. You do, Actually.

You need to make them their only connection to each other. We want to do a London stint. Definitely. Yeah. Yeah. But then we haven't chosen the place after that. Do your kids already have the American accent? he sounds like Peppa Pig when he's speaking to me. that's funny. He sounds like California when he's speaking to everyone else. So he's on to us. He's on the traveling less I daughter know speaking to him. How are your kids how do you keep your son is four my daughter is 818 months. in terms America.

Well there's there's there's. so there's a if you care about this stuff yeah so. I, I I'm bilingual. I speak English and American. Okay. Which is very different languages, obviously. So, you know, like kids who have French parents, you know, they'll like just start speaking French to their parents. They just they go between English, French, English, French. Well, I do that like when I talk to my parents, when I talk to my friends in England, I have an English accent. You use English vocabulary when I talk to my American friends, I speak American. So I bounce between the two. My sister is 100% American.

Can't even fake an English accent. That's so interesting. There's a feral. They found these feral kids in India. and they found that there's a critical age for language. If they brought their kids back into society between the ages of 8 to 10, they could learn syntax and language and they could be fully. integrated back into society. But if it was later than that, the kids could only do. Like when you see like chimps learning to speak, it's like word association. Yeah, banana hungry, you know, they couldn't learn syntax.

And so I think it also applies to accents. My sister was younger when we when we came. to America fully American, where I was sort of on that cusp. Yeah. And so I had an English accent living here for years before I kind of lost it. But I'm still bilingual. We have three languages in our house, so English, Spanish and above. It was an indigenous language from south eastern Nigeria. So. we're always using different words. But my daughter English is really she just doesn't have many.

She knows like pizza, which is an Italian word, right? So so she's she's, she knows the languages. Yeah. But like my daughter like and it's hard. Yesterday she was crying about something. She was like, well she says you're fast. They were just like Spanish for this. Yeah. And I was like, my husband speaks. I don't know what's going on here. So it like this interesting thing where like, each child is being drawn. to their own culture because there's no, like real common culture of the house. I think about like when they grow up, I'm like, are they going to be close?

Are they going, you know, you figured it out, just move them. Actually, yeah. Wait, so let me let me ask you this. So one of my favorite things, just to give people a bit of context, Simon and I have I don't know. how long we've known each other for now, probably three years. Yes, I'm with you three years. But my favorite thing about you, by far is that I just throw puzzles at you. I just go, Here's a puzzle. What do you think? And then you throw some at me and then we'll go back and forth. And what I love about you is the thing that most people. like about you in the world.

Like how your brain works and how you able to synthesize information that sort of. gives us an understanding of something that maybe we didn't understand. Describe you the same way you know that. Yeah, but I'm not I'm not formal with it. I'm like my thing. No, no, no. What I mean by this is like, I'm not an academic. Know, what I'm trying to say is, like, I'm not always trying to help people. I think there's a difference, Matt, is I think there's a different feel good. I wouldn't. distill me like, okay, I don't think that's fair. because I don't think I'm pure because I mean,

the thing that we enjoy about each other when we get when we talk. is we both enjoy chaos and finding the patterns in chaos. Yes, exactly. And I think that's what creativity is. I think creativity is the ability to find order in chaos. And and I love chaos because chaos is where all the magic happens. Otherwise everything's linear. But I think he creates the chaos that's just different. I think he like bringing you. Unbelievable. So maybe you seek out he's the one bringing. Maybe he makes the chaos so that he can find the or perhaps I don't.

I don't. you know, I resent all of these comments, but either way, I'm. happy to have you here before I get into, like, my stuff, I want to know, is there a puzzle you're trying to solve right now that we can help you with. So, I mean, the simple answer is yes. The I am absolutely, absolutely fascinated by the world order. This is not something we're going to solve in a podcast. No, we will. But we've got like 50 something odd minutes. Perfect. So I just world orders I can solve in 30. So I just I find this the world order.

just absolutely fascinating, you know, and trying to understand how we got here as well. You know, where we went from the Cold War or Cold War. 1.0, where it was very neat is very neatly organized. Yeah, You had democracy and capitalists on one side. and communists on the other side. And it was very clearly delineated that if you were communist, we weren't your friends and that was it. Or the Communists were in one team and all the democracies and capitalists. or those who aspire to be were on the other team play is very, very simple.

And both, both were reasonably rational and played by very similar rules. Well, that doesn't exist anymore. And we now have ideologies mixed together. Our adversaries are also our trading partners. It's a complete mess and continues to get messier. And I am absolutely fascinated by. how our leaders don't really understand. the world that we're operating in and how we got here. And yet they're attempting to make decisions to manage it or lead it.

So this is great because. all of your listeners are tuned in for this. No, no, this is this is this is why this is why people listen. Trust me. This is why people listen. Because. I feel like to give people a little more context. You know, like you blew up on the scene many years ago and I think you've had like. multiple moments that have really put you into the zeitgeist. But one thing that I think has separated you from many people. is that you're seen as somebody who is inspirational and thought provoking.

and really a modern day philosopher in how we see the world. But then you also seem like that by institutions in some ways, you know, like so you'll you'll get brought in to speak to like military leaders. or personnel and, you know, you'll get brought in to speaking. to like parts of government or companies. They'll go like. Simon, we need you to come in. Okay. I'm going to ask you, you don't have to expose anybody here. And I'll tell you what I think about it. And I'd love to know your opinion on it. In my time.

traveling around the world and spending a lot of time. with leaders in America, not political, by the way, just across the board, people who have power over other people in any way, shape or form. I have been shocked at how much people. who are in charge of shit do not know what is going on. And I'm going to repeat this. a little bit slower because it shocked me when I came to the realization. most of the people, many, even of the people, it's not say most, many of the people who are in charge of companies,

of institutions of like, you know, states, they do not know. what is going on. Yeah. It's an amateur point of view because I don't work, like, with them. So you, the person who works with them, I want to know, like. the people who are running the world. Yeah. Do they know what they're doing? I think your assessment is is pretty spot on. I mean, we're in trouble right now, but like, when I work with government. or I work with military, like, I'm constantly amazed. at how much they know.

and simultaneously amazed at how little they know. And and that's true for government. The military, like those things, live in this strange paradox. Yeah. And it's it's constantly amazing to me. how good they are and how how bad they are simultaneously. There are multiple reasons for that. One is and it's the same in the corporate world, which is which is how we promote, you know, there are there are tactical people and there are strategic people. Nobody's purely one or the other, okay?

You know, tactical people sort of know how to get things done. They're in the weeds. They can see the details. and the strategic people in more blue sky can see sort of far off horizons. You know, the best strategic people aren't the best at tactics. and the best tactical people aren't too good at strategy. What I found is fascinating, especially when you get to the higher. echelons of government or military, which is the really great strategic. thinkers know that they are bad at tactical. thinking and surround themselves with good tactical thinkers. The really great tactical thinkers who find themselves. in high level positions think they're great at strategy.

that's okay. Okay. So strategic people are more likely, in your opinion, to know. that they aren't great at the tactics. Correct. But tactical people are less likely to know. They think they're great at strategy, they think they're great and they don't even understand it. Think of it like marketing. Marketing is a little more ethereal. It's a little more, you know, blue sky ish finance, a little more detailed, more in the weeds. All right. Marketers know that they're bad at finance. Finance people think they're good marketers. Okay, We're marketing people. Like, I don't know, you probably get somebody in finance to look at that.

I don't understand. Right? And so what ends up happening is the tactical people, if they get promoted into strategic jobs, they think they understand it. Yeah, but they don't. And it's not that they don't understand. It's that they're that their view is just too shallow. They're operating only with what they can see, and they're not very good at making decisions based on what they. what they can't see or very long term they don't understand. Like if you pull lever a, then these things might happen. They just like pull lever get this and you're like,

yes, and this will be the response to that. There's not that that way of thinking. And I think strategy in general is one of those very misunderstood things. It's it's it's hard, it's amorphous, and it's sort of in the clouds. But you're 100% right. I think that would be my assessment, too. It's amazing. that the decisions are being made by people that don't fully understand. the nuance and simultaneously, there are people there. whose minds will blow you away, how much they understand and how smart they are. and how they understand nuance better than I actually have.

No, no, I appreciate that. I appreciate the duality. That's so confusing. I think we've all worked in places where we've been like, you know, my boss is an idiot, right? Yeah. And so for the person. that wasn't you at The Daily Show, I was like, my boss is this smart? South African? Okay. All right. So really, because I don't know many places you worked, I'm just trying to write down why That's an interesting. We've all worked in place. Wow. That was a. right. You think Christina does. think or did think that maybe I didn't think you were an idiot.

Okay. Okay. And I think of yourself as an idiot. I actually do, because I think of myself, and I'm almost constantly disagreeing. I still disagree, which is like. Which means I'm an idiot, which makes a great entertainment. This is amazing. These I. and he's the same of me. So I thought he was I always thought Trevor is brilliant. So it wasn't that I thought he was a brilliant and brilliant idiot, actually. Do think that. No, I. But I say, like, we've all worked in places where. the really smart person or the person that has the insight,

whether it's strategically or tactically, it's kind of like stuck. in middle management and for whatever reason isn't able to maneuver. to be in a position where they're like the boss, right? Yeah. What would you advise that person? Because I know I have tons of friends like that, and I'm like, they're just stuck at this place in their career. And their complaint is my boss doesn't know what they're doing, the VP. doesn't know what they're doing, the CIO doesn't know what they're doing. And it seems that like across the world. we just have this class of middle management.

who can't really make decisions. But for some reason. there's something about them intrinsically that they're not able to do. To stage a coup is what you're asking to stage a coup. But I'm saying that the people at the top are really good at like. I know my mom is great at like knowing how to get to the top, whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's one of these guys. He could go anywhere and end up at the top and he knows nothing. I think that's a talent. Whereas I know something. He knows something. But then the people that, like, have all the acumen, as you say, and. have the expertise, have the vision right to be stuck and they can't transform.

That's such a layered, it's such a layered question. So this is the most common question I get. By the way. I'm in middle management, by the way. Middle management is the most difficult job in the world. because you have to be tactical and strategic. because you're going down and you're going down and up. You have to you have to be do a job and also lead others doing the job. You're in a position where you have had not a lot of practice leading as well. So you're learning on the job. You also absorb all the anger of the. CEO and the anger above you when they're frustrated with the boss.

And it's just it's the worst place and that's where most things die, you know, which is I've met I've gone to companies with senior leaderships. Incredible. They're wonderful people focused, blah, blah, blah. And then you go to the front lines and you're like, This is an awful place. Something happens in the middle. There is a class of people who are the the angry, smart people who are angry. And by the way, I think they hate people like me and Trevor, too. Well, I speak for me. That's. there's this angry, smart person who are absolutely smarter.

than the people above them. But what they don't understand is that intelligence alone is, you know, and book smarts is not the thing that puts you in a leadership position. Understanding people, understanding. politics, understand how to navigate, you know, having IQ. These are necessary skills as well. And when they compare intelligence to intelligence, they'll always come up higher. Know people like. Right. And in those cases, it's like the only common factor. in all of their frustration with all the people they've worked for. Is that them? Yeah. So either everyone's an idiot or maybe there's a skill.

set that those people who are advancing are mastering that they're ignoring. It's also the incentive structures. Most organizations tend to overemphasize. performance results above leadership capacity. Doing the job and leading others who do the job are not the same thing. You can be a great salesperson that doesn't make you a great sales manager, but we tend to promote great salespeople into the position of sales manager. Yeah, where you lead people who do the job, you used to do different skill sets. And so we we don't promote very well.

And so that's another reason which these people may be better leaders, but but they're being overlooked because of. what are the incentive structure is inside the organization. And then and then ultimately. the incentive structure is above them as well, which is the senior. leaders are incentivized not to make the company better. You know, at least in the public company, they're incentivized to make the the stock price better. Yeah. And so they're going to promote the people who do that. And the focus shouldn't be on the boss. You can't you can't control people. You can't control.

Like no number of anonymously sent books. to your boss will change the way that they lead. Although I urge people to keep trying. Well, and I might keep trying. It's not going to work, but keep trying. My advice is always the same, which is worry about the things you can control. Be the leader you wish you had right. And so how do you help the people for whom you're responsible? How do you help them rise? How do you help them build confidence? How do you help them build build the skill sets to the people, to the left of you, to the right of you, even the person above you.

That's a human being, too. And we don't know the stresses that they're dealing with. And to have empathy for your boss who might have just yelled at you. to go into their office afterwards and say, Are you okay. and truly become the leader you wish you had? Because what I've learned is, especially if you would adopt an infinite mindset, which is if you let go of that, things have to happen by a certain time. What will happen is that influence. That'll be a really well led group and generally their performance will go up. because they're well led and senior management will either. just leave them alone because the numbers are good,

or if they're curious, they'll say, What are you doing? And we'll end up happening as one of those people will get promoted out, they'll take everything they've learned from that great leader. Yeah, and that will infect another group. And before you know it, the tail wagging the dog. That's interesting. Now we're like into kind of this what place dynamic space. Could you tell the audience more about your view on gossip? Because I come on the other side of it, I don't like the word gossip. I think we should call it oral history because that's what it is. All history in real time.

In real time. Is that true? Yeah. I mean, I come from a line of griot, West African. But isn't the but way of. Yeah, but how do you define gossip? So like, I think gossip is really important for protecting the tribe is how we know. But how do you define gossip Like what do you. So what I mean is like, okay, for me, when I hear gossip, I go, Gossip is a story about something or someone. from my perspective that is salacious in some way, shape or form. But it isn't necessarily the same as history, because history is a thing that happened.

And look, everyone's going to be biased, but I always feel like. telling a story involves like a little I think it's two things. Okay, so the main one is trying to be impartial. You don't gossip about the history of your people. You just tell the story of it's right. That's what I think of with like the Grio, you know. But, you know, history and gossip is interchangeable. I'm with you in some way. And then the second one for me, and this is a big one, is I don't think. people ever need to whisper about histories like, no, no. I mean, I mean, amongst like, do you get them?

That's what I always think. Like a gossip for me is. this is my personal is like if you ever need to like look. before you say the thing I think that's more gossip than history. Like, I never need to say to you, like, if you go like Christiane and tell me about your family. and then I go like, well, my mom. So my mom started working when that to me is. not is not so, you know, a history because we're on the other side of it. At the time, they were when they were budding all those witches. were like, real. But I don't know about that. But that's because there's an immediate danger. as opposed to like a shaming that's going to come.

I don't think so. I don't think so. You think? I think I think gossip is frowned upon because women do it. I, I think I think I think everybody does. How? But women do it really well, man. You know, my closest male friends are great gossips. Again. Oral Historian So but oral oral history is a recounting. Yeah. Where gossip has is laced with judgment. I mean, history is laced with like there is no neutral let's. so there's no neutral here.

Let's let's bring it down a few thousand feet right. Which is. so I think venting is is important. So you leave work that day, you pick up the phone you like, turns it on, you just get it all out. You say all the stupid things and you just you just need to get it out. It's a venting, right? I think that's good. I think venting is very healthy. Okay, okay. Venting is healthy. It's like any tension in any relationship. Sometimes you just need to say it and then you're fine. Okay, So I think venting at work is very important. And I'm on the other side like, Okay, woman, I never been that way. Okay, well, I see.

But you can then you can vent about work to other people. Okay, Got it. I mean, or you can vent at work about your husband. I mean, like you've vent about your kids venting. So the most important thing for you is releasing the exhaust gases. That's essentially what you're saying. That's all. It doesn't matter where you're doing it. I mean, I think you have to have. so you can vents about work at home and you convince about home at work. and you have to have emotional professionalism. You know, you can't you can't vent about your boss to somebody. who works for you because your voice carries God, carries influence.

Right? And then you're going to start muddying the waters. But you can vent to somebody you're friends with at work. and they know you're just venting and it doesn't affect their opinions. before you move on. Why is venting good? Because I think it releases tension because I think if you keep the tension. and it builds, a builder builds and you start forming a narrative about a person. that they're dumb, they're stupid, and you start treating them that way. okay. So gossip, I think, is perpetuating narratives that may or may not be true. Can I tell you what office gossip normal Someone in the office. It's normally done in a group chat. Yeah. And it's like that's this is office gossip is it's.

you know the Christmas party so-and-so hooked up with. So a really they did. there are no more sausage rolls because so-and-so took more sausage. That's what office gossip is. It's just a litmus test of the culture and the happenings all the time. I'm telling you from the group chat, I think those I mean, sometimes. it slides into, you know, she did this today. that's so annoying. But the way gossip works and there's enough factions in the office. is really hard to completely change the perception of one person.

Yeah, I think I have not found a and if everyone else. if there's good reason gossip can can destroy a culture. It can but it's also like don't. go into that guy's office because he's got, he's very handy pansy. like because I'm not if I'm like because he's been really really quiet but. okay that's that's that's that sounds like a warning. That's a lot but that's not really gossip. I mean, it's. No, no, no, no, no. But gossip is he like. But that's how but I think I think when when you start spreading ideas.

about a person. Yeah. That are unrehearsed, unverified. or that you. wouldn't say to that person, yeah. it can be very dangerous. I know a company that gossip is a firing offense because it's so destructive. And when they think about gossip, they're talking about spreading rumors. about a person. Even if you think it's true. And can I tell you something about I bet you about that company. Yeah. They protect a lot of men.

yeah. Because I think gossip is a crucial. So it's a very it's a very it's a very female. And if we say no gossip, I think it insulates poor leadership. I think it insulates bullies because it makes these managers. Please. But I'm going to get to your experience without being labeled gossip. So I was just like, well, how do I know? This is very interesting. I think we need another word here because I think an oral history, I don't know. I don't know if that's the right word, but. I think I think I think we need another word here. because I think you and I are talking about different things.

Okay? Because I agree with you and I wouldn't classify that stuff as gossip, but some people would some people would say, well, you're that's that's gossip. You want that. You can't prove that. He looked at her a certain way. You thought, this is why offices by the way. gossip spreads much quicker and easier in virtual, like when you're in an office and you interact with people. and somebody is really nice. Yeah. On a daily basis. Or he says hi and somebody goes, That person is like. the worst person in the world where they're like, They're really nice.

But when we're separated from each other, what I've learned, what I've found. is that that false narratives about so many swirl way quicker. The difference, though, is like with gossip versus like, let's say in office, I don't I love that we're all having a conversation. about the office like, like from our corporate jobs. Yeah, but we've all been in office. I, I worked a ton of different jobs. I want to know the jobs you had in office, unsuccessfully. I worked, I, I worked as like, what do you call them? Clerks. Sometimes with the person's jobs,

it's like, get the papers and get mailroom type. Yeah, like that. I've done that. I worked in an office because I was a meter reader, you know, like reading electricity and water meters. Then you'd be in the office with the people that read your meter. Please do that type of thing. I was working in an office that's going to an office and then leaving. Well, what is what is the difference. between on The Daily Show was an office for years. So you're saying it's funny, we talk about offices. I think most people, if I was to bet most people listening to this podcast work. in an office. Yeah, most people in life, people live in the in the developed world.

working in office. Yeah. It's like the thing I understand the idea behind like, let's eliminate gossip. That's not going to eliminate like the nastiness of office politics. and how human beings behave, actually. And I think you have some great pressure. Really. So what? So we we did this in our company because I was very public about it. with the whole team, which is I said from now on, when somebody says something about someone's intentions or. or labels their. character, it is everyone's responsibility in that meeting.

to interrupt that train of thought and raise the question. So, for example, the guy's so lazy, right? my God, he's so lazy. All is needed is for anybody in the room to say could be lazy. or could be stressed or has some stuff going on at home, or we've put them in a job they don't know how to do it. And so they're freaking out. Like to just add to a list of other possibilities that it could be. That's, that's, that's getting the results that we're getting. Lazy is absolutely on the list.

And it's just giving people grace that we're not judging. why they're performing the way they are or why they are the way they are. You know? So like, I'll give you another example. I went for a walk with a friend of mine. She wanted some advice and. the conversation started like this. My boss is a horrible person and I immediately interrupted and said, my God, does she kick her dog and abuse her children? She said, No. I said, okay. So we don't know that she's a horrible person. We know that she's a horrible boss.

Those are two very, very different things. And I think that's the problem when we label someone's. behavior or skill set versus labeling their character. And when we label their character, it's. insidious and dangerous and that's when it gets toxic. We're going to continue this conversation. right after this short break. And you know what? I'm listening to this. I can't help but wonder if we always talk about companies. as if they're these isolated spaces.

But it feels like you live in a world where you're constantly. exposed to the petri dishes of society. because what is a company, if not a manufactured community? It's a collection of people. It's a collection. It's a modern tribe that you go. And so these are the people you because of, let's say, your job, maybe you chose, but you sort of didn't choose them because you. you weren't the person hiring all of them and you weren't the person. So in many ways it is like a tribe. It is like a community. These people have happened into your life and now you have to choose.

how to treat them and how not to treat them. So the thing that pops into my mind as I'm thinking about this is, is it harder for us. to be better or to treat people? It should give them the benefit of the doubt in a corporate setting? Or is this just. a magnifying glass that's put on us and our ability. outside of the corporate world like like way? Have you found it easier to apply these principles? Because everything you're saying to me. sounds like things we should be doing in real life.

Yeah, So we should go. I don't like that person's music. I don't like how they looked in some pictures. I don't like the way they speak as opposed to saying that person's an asshole. And I said, Well, how do you know they're an asshole? I can tell you like, okay, but what of them? You know, and we've seen this happen online. Sure, you can just like builds. All of a sudden there's like a movement and everyone's just like, we hate them. Why is this An example for me was like, Anne Hathaway, Do you ever do the time when and have those haters? Yeah, Yeah, for sure. Yeah.

And she'd done nothing. That's my thing. I'm I'm not like chronically online, so I pop in. and I'll miss things and I'm like, did I? What did she do? And then I'll go down a rabbit hole and like, I still I couldn't find it. And then she'd like, dance at a film festival or something or an after party. And then people are like, She's amazing. Yeah. I was like, What? What has happened in her life or in people's lives that this shifted and. and that's a good example of the swirl of that. So that's what that's what, that's what I want is someone's character, right? And this is where I think these things.

get dangerous. But you're 100% right, which is the office. is a little petri dish and everything that we learn at work. Yeah. Is it if you do it like the best organizations are values based, right? Yeah, but let's watch. What does that mean? I'll be honest. I'm always confused about that because I go, For me, a company's values are to make money. That's. Yeah. So that's go on and I mean this and I'm not like saying. checking where I go I'm always thrown when a company says.

like our values our because I go these are your values. Yeah, but if losing money comes into the equation, you will adapt your values. So then they aren't values to me, correct? That's, that's what I always think of. So I call a can a company actually have values beyond making money? So you are highlighting the very problem with modern capitalism, right? The capitalism that we have today is not. Adam Smith Capitalism. That's not that's not the capitalism we have today. We have a bastardized form of capitalism influenced by. a an economist.

from the late seventies named Milton Friedman, the Adam Smith. version of capitalism was that the baker selfishly wants to make the best bread. so that they can sell more bread than all the other bakers and the. the butcher selfishly wants to make the best meat. so he can sell more than all the other butchers. And the the the the dairy farmer wants to make the best butter. so that he can sell more. And what you get is the best sandwich. What we as the customer get is the best sandwich, right? So the selfish behavior of wanting. to be better than their others benefits the customer. Right. And in the late 1970s, Milton Friedman wrote an op ed.

in The New York Times where he basically proposed a new definition of business. He actually called it the responsibility of business. The responsibility of business. was to maximize profit within the bounds of the rules. Forget about ethics, maximize profits within the bounds of the rules, write ethics, or a higher standard than the rules. And you see it all the time. You know, companies did some horrifically unethical things. You know, there's a pattern to an essential drug. Yeah. And they raised the price of 1500 percent. Right. It's within the rules. And they all say the same thing. We broke no laws.

Yeah, which is true, right? Horrible, but not illegal. Right. And so in the late seventies and early eighties, a lot of the sort of the ruling. classes, the CEO classes heard this definition went, yeah, baby. Right. And they embraced Friedman's definition of capitalism. the or business, the responsibility of business. And they sort of doubled down on it And you start it, it gave rise to some entirely new behaviors, entirely new CEOs. There was this just from this op ed? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, like it became a popular thing.

Wow. Milton that's a that's a great way. Don't hate and don't like Milton Friedman, right? Is Milton Friedman still alive? No, no. And so you can say it like that. That would be like a crazy move if you were just like, I hate you, Milton Friedman and Milton. Phrases like, I hate Schneck. Okay. there we go. Okay, let's speak about his character. Okay? But I don't like the work you put out there. And so you, you started to see these new behaviors arise. So, for example, the use of mass layoffs to balance the books. on an annualized basis, right? Yeah. Did not exist in the United States prior to the 1980s.

It didn't exist. Layoffs, mass layoffs were used for existential reasons, like, my God, the company is going bankrupt. We have to cut 10% of our workforce. Yes. Now it's like we're profitable. We're just not as profitable as we promised. You lose your job, right? That started in the early 1980s and it and it started to gain popularity. and then it gave rise to an entirely new type of CEO like Jack Welch, who was the CEO of GE, and he was like the poster child. of Mill Mill, Tony, in economics, where you started to see. the shareholder being prioritized over the customer and the employee,

you started to see shorter term time horizons. You started to see an emphasis on price. of stock versus is this good for the company's long term value. You started to see long term greed being replaced by short term greed. I don't have an issue with long term greed, but short term greed is a problem. and the use of human beings livelihoods. to maximize shareholder value. And this was all because of this mill, Tony, and influenced. Jack Welch, poster child. That is the standard of how businesses are led today.

There's nothing wrong with capitalism. There's a huge problem with this version of capitalism. And you can see what's happening. There's a rise of populist movements. across the West and in capitalist societies. I don't care if you in the left and right Bernie or Trump, it doesn't matter. And they're complaining about the same thing, which is the very small percentage of the elite. are getting richer and everybody else is being left behind. And when you have a huge delta between those who have. and those who don't, what you get is revolution. The middle class is drying up. and people are not investing in the stock market anymore.

The whole stock market exists. so that the average working American can share in the wealth of a nation. That's why that's why we have a stock market. That's what Alexander Hamilton imagined. Right. And the but that's not what we have anymore. So what? We have a game for a few so they can they can come on. Well and just to just to put one final sort of cap on it. if you go back to the anthropology of leadership, like if we go back, you know, 50,000 years, whatever you want to do,

where we lived in tribes that were never bigger than about 150, 200. people, human beings evolved into naturally animals. We're constantly assessing and judging who's alpha, depending on. whatever the standards are for that, for that group who's alpha. And we treat our alphas differently, right? You know this as soon as you started getting some fame, you're better looking and all your jokes are funnier, right? If you leave your jacket in another room, somebody goes and gets your jacket for you. If you're junior and you leave a jacket in the other room, you get your own jacket, Right? That's just how it works.

And so what we did was we assessed our alphas. and we stepped back and we allowed our alphas. to get first choice of meat and first choice of meat. Except the group is not stupid. We don't give first choice of meat. and first choice of meat to our alphas for nothing. There's a deep seated social contract that when danger threatens the tribe, we expect the person who's actually stronger, actually smarter, actually. better fed to confront the danger, to protect the tribe. That's why we give you all the perks. This. It's not. You don't get the perks for free.

They come at a cost. And so that's the deep seated social contract. We have no problem with CEOs making more money than us where it broke. the contract and why you get the anger is not the disparity. It's when we started to see the people who are in positions. when danger threatened the tribe, the economy took a little shake. Whatever it is. that they would sooner sacrifice the people to protect their own interests. rather than sacrifice their interests for the short term to protect the people. And that's why we're getting the populist reaction.

That's what it is. It's it's it's the people saying you have you have violated your right. that we're coming for you with pitchforks. I mean, it's no different in many ways to what we see in countries, right? 100%. So people will say we want democracy, Like the idea of democracy is very popular. because it's been attached to things like fairness. and equality, etc.. But I would argue most people would be fine living in a dictatorship. or under a monarchy if their lives were good.

Benevolent dictatorship is the best form of government. Yeah, like I said, people don't actually care. The problem is succession. Yeah, that, that that's actually the thing, you know. And so what you're saying now is. I think of how many people, let's say in America, we start with the US. One of the. more interesting things I saw was on. AOC, AOC Instagram page, right? Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. She asked people after the election, Hey, I noticed that Trump won the election,

what he lost on the down ballot in many places. And now a lot of people are saying this is a conspiracy. They're saying, how could Trump have won the election? But the people in these certain counties and whatever. more states they voted Democrat, but then Trump won. What's what's going on here? And so she said, just for me, can you all tell me if you voted for me and Trump? I want to know if that's possible. And her. I don't know what the number was, but it looked like she was. flooded with replies and then she started posting them on her page.

and it was amazing. See how many people said I voted for you and Trump? Yeah, because while you two don't see eye to eye, you are both doing. the same thing in my eyes, which is you're dismantling the system. Yeah, that has put me in this position. AOC is going break it all apart. Trump is saying, break it all apart. AOC saying, these people are screwing you over. Trump is saying these people are screwing you over. and then you see it with leaders as well. They're killing it. They're doing well, they're having fun. And then on the ground, you're not having a good time. And then it leads us to yeah, it leads us to a lot of what we have now.

And so the reaction isn't throw out capitalism and democracy. The answer is throw out this form of capitalism. Go back. But but do you how do they respond? Yeah, but how do they respond when you because you actually hang out with CEOs. How do they respond? Well, the ones who agree with me hang out with me. are the ones who don't agree with me. Don't don't call me. Have you ever changed CEO's mind? The problem is not their mind. The problem is their incentive structure. Like I remember, I was working with a CEO and gave him some counsel.

on sort of how to organize things better and he was really honest. He's like, I totally agree with everything you're telling me and your your insights. are spot on and I completely agree and I'm going to implement none of it, because if I do it your way, I won't get my bonus. He was just very blunt with me there. And so and so. But the but there are good leaders who are taking risks to fight the machine. There's also a younger generation of leaders that are coming up.

The newer companies, the newer CEOs. are are raising these questions. And you start to hear things like triple. bottom line and start to hear these things. But you're 100% right. You know, the number of look, the fact that. we took the I've gotten the. all the businesses that come together, the African with what they're called. But a few years ago, they put out a statement saying purpose really matters in business. But when I started like if you talk about purpose at work, you were just a weird ass hippie and every company. has a purpose statement on their website, even if they don't follow it,

even if it's just because they have. Yeah, but that's at least progress I think is designed. We probably fall on different. parts of the capitalist debate. and we're not going to get into it because I hate capitalism. and I. But you are champagne socialist. I don't think it's a system that can be redeemed personally, especially America's history of racial capitalism. I guess I object to the fact that why should I find purpose in work? Like I actually deeply recoil when I hear that because I'm just like,

so you want me to feel like it's like kind of the wellness industry, right. this way of feeling good about yourself in order to sell me more things. And I'm like, Why should to me, my purpose can never, ever be in what, God forbid, an office and God forbid my boss coming to me and saying, like, what's your why? And I'm like, Well, my wife's abused my family and my friends and my community. This is just how I make money. Is that all this is for your transaction? Yeah, especially Trevor. I saw the transaction.

this episode. We're talking with Simon Sinek about how to find meaning and satisfaction. in the work that you do. And let's be honest, a big part of that is making sure. you end up in the right role at the right place. In other words, it's all about hiring, recruiting and finding the perfect match. That's what's inspired this next special part of today's episode. Next big opportunity brought to you by Ziprecruiter.

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Trevor This has been the next big opportunity. brought to you by ziprecruiter. Now back to our conversation with Simon. Sinek. story I read. There's an explorer I don't know. I'm very bad with years, but I remember the stories and it was. There's an explorer in England who went and bumped into. an undiscovered tribe right there and made contact with the English.

And this guy befriended them and they welcomed him in. All things were good. And then he like, sort of learned to communicate with them. And it was this beautiful little journey. where he learned their way of life and had a wonderful time. And they were really an altruistic, you know, community. And they had different laws, by the way. Sort of murder was legal in some ways. You could just kill somebody. And then the tribe was just like, well, you did it. And we keep it moving. We don't like judge you. We don't. But he was like, surprisingly, everyone didn't kill each other, so they were definitely different. Right after spending, you know, months or even years with them,

he goes back to England and he says to like the chief of the tribe. and like some of those like, Hey, you should come with me to England. And they travel back to England. and they like spending time with him and his family. You know, you can imagine this life now. You've gone from like the jungle to, you know, London, Victorian, London. Yeah. And he, he says to them, he says, what do you so what do you think. And he says like. he thought these guys are going to be mesmerized. because there's technology and like this, you know, carriages. and there's all kinds of stuff. He's like, So what do you think?

And he says, they were not impressed at all. The only thing that impressed them was the butchery. They were really shocked that you could just go and get what they want. They were like, That's the only thing that made them happy. They're like, Wow, you could just go get meat anytime you want. That's pretty cool. Everything else they didn't care about. And it culminated in a question that they asked him one day. After a week or so of staying together, he came home. and one of the tribespeople asked him, said, Hey, where do you go every day?

I said, What? And he said, Every day you leave this this house, you're gone. We're here with like your family. And then you come back where you go every day. And he's like, I go to work. And they're like, they're like, Well, why don't you take your family with you? And he's like, Yeah, they don't allow that at my work. That's not how we do things here. And they go, okay. And they're like, Well, do you like your work more than your family? And he's like, No, no, no. I love my family the most.

And they said, Well, then why don't you quit your work. and just stay with your family? And he said, No, I have to work for my family so that we can live. And then. they said, well, this system doesn't make sense, because if you working. to be with your family, but you have to leave your family to go to work, then you're doing the wrong thing in the wrong way. And then he said, Well, how do you how do you do it? I have to have the house and I have to. And they said, in our community, when somebody needs a house, we all come together. We build them a house. It takes us about a month. There's now a house.

And then we go back to living our lives with our families. And if somebody needs something else, we get together. We do that for them and then we go back. And he says it was the first time. that he was ever confronted with the notion that the way we live. isn't normal, like the office, the work, the family, the thing. And then they went back, by the way. He was like, you guys. They're like, no, no, no, no. We're very happy to leave. Yeah. By the way, give us some meat. That was really cool. And then they went back home and they lived there. Lives struggle with the idea of infusing these corporations.

with purpose and spirituality because I. I'm the community I belong to. We find that elsewhere. It's like your job is your job. I feel very fortunate to do a job that I enjoy. Despite it being with Trevor, along with. a whole wonderful crew. Yeah, yeah, forget them. But no, it's just. It's just like I, I, I bought up against that because in the tech world, it looks like, okay, now we're going to give you a gym. in the office because that would make them feel better. and they have somewhere to sleep and like, what that gets.

So how do you feel? How do you define the value of purpose? So we're conflating a bunch of things here, right? I don't think any of that's purpose either. Yeah, that stuff is superficial. and it's trappings and none of that stuff makes for quote, culture either. Yeah, right. So just just go back a few years. So there was a time not that long ago where, you know, you're. right where you went to work simply to make the money to pay for your stuff. And you had you were friends with your neighbors. and you had a sense of tribe with your neighbors and you got, you know,

some sort of belonging or community or moral guidance from church. And you had bowling on Saturdays and you had the tournaments. on Thursday nights. And we had these things, Sunday dinners, Sunday dinners and all these traditions. and institutions, the bowling clubs, the bowling leagues went away, church attendance down. We're not really friends with our neighbors, but we still have desire for all these things. And so a lot of pressure. was put on work to give me these things that I used to get outside of work. So it's not all work trying to force these things on you.

Some of it was the changing world around us. and we are demanding of our officers to give it to us. because we're not getting it anywhere else. Yeah, and I don't I don't want it from my office and that's totally fine. But to be here more, I want to be with my. And that's totally fine, by the way. Yeah, and that's totally fine. But when I talk about purpose at work, right, I'm not talking about. something spiritual, anything like that. When we talk about vision, whether it's vision, the best companies. sound like they sound like social movements, right?

Which is scary to me because I don't like it's cultish. No, I mean, I know people that work for these type of vision driven, purpose. driven, cos I'm like, You've joined a cult and they will fire you too. And by the way, so. But hold on. But you're, you're conflating. So there's a swirl of stuff going on, right? Because Go ahead. Good. Me. Good. So you're right. Yeah. It is cultish. Yeah. And that's not necessarily a bad thing because it means I believe. there's a shared set of values.

I feel like I belong. I feel like I've found my tribe. Right? The company actually does obey its values and would. sacrifice its short term money to uphold its values. Those are good companies. And when you say, they'll just fire you, the bad companies will. Yeah, trust me, I'm with you on that. Yeah, right. They say all the right things. They put the values on the wall, but it's all a punch line. and they don't use them to make decisions. Yeah, so you're 100% right there, but I'll take you to see some companies. where they are treated. Right. They don't get fired simply because the company is struggling.

and they they are hired slowly because they. they try and choose people who believe in the same values, who are cultural contributors rather than cultural fits. Right. Which is I like it here. I want to give it to the people, to the left. and right of me, because they give to me. and they they have a psychological safety. When they come to work, they feel like someone's got, I guess, what I have. And those are beautiful things. Yeah. I think what I object to fundamentally is like the privatization. of a sense of belonging.

I don't actually think that's the job of a business. I don't believe that's the job of business. I believe I believe that is actually the job of your community and your piece. I mean, would you can I. Can I. Can I can I feel something I might restore to the community? No, but I'm really I'm not in the business of being like, by the way, make these by the way, I agree. This is in places of purpose and belonging, because it's just like, no. So. So I'll throw one thing. separately, actually, because I don't consult with companies in that way. But I do think for me, at least personally, when we talk about purpose,

yeah, I sometimes think about it through the lens of funny enough pyramids. You know, when, when I went to Peru. and you go to Machu Picchu and you're looking at the pyramids, the immediate assumption that Western anthropologists. had when they came was, that they did this using slavery. They were like, you guys had slaves. And then that's how you built the thing. And historians who are from Peru go, No, no, no. You assume that because that's how you built your empires.

You only know how to build using slavery. They go, these people had purpose and their purpose was they woke up every day. They said, We're building a temple to the gods, and no one was like. forcing anyone. They were like, Yo, yo, temple time, temple time, baby. And everyone got together and they're like, Why do we push these rocks for the gods? Yeah. And now someone might be like, God, they were being manipulated. Who told them about the okay, we can have that conversation forever. But I do think there's a different thrust that people experience. where like you feel like you are doing something.

or moving towards something. And while it doesn't replace. your community, for me, yeah, it adds to my community. Do you know what I'm saying? Like even working with you, like at The Daily Show, working with people, there's like a vibe of like where I'm like, Yeah, we like it. We try to do something. Sometimes we don't, sometimes we do. Yeah, But this is like a it's like we try to move. in the same direction and, and that for me, if you do it right, I think it's, I think it's something beautiful. But to your point I think a lot of companies scam people on that. That's why I was asking about the values.

But even if they're sincere, I just don't think that's the role of a company. I think that's a profound failure. But I'm saying but I'm just like, I don't want to go to like people in my family. I go to work, I come. Nobody I can agree. I agree with you, but I'm saying, what are you doing at work? That's maybe my thing, because I agree with you. I go to work, I come back. Yes. But then there's also a third option, which is which work do I go to? Yeah. Yeah. That's what I think about. If I offered you more money to go have the exact same job with a different person, would you take it immediately?

No, but I'm in this cult with Trevor, so. But. But hold on. He's kind of. But I can't get rid of it. You just said. You just. You just said I didn't. I mean, the cobra going to you just. But so you're not. But you're not. But you're not following your own rules. No, I'm saying. I feel that I come from a position where I feel like it's a real luxury to do. I do like I get to write for a living. I get to think, I get to speak, write most of my people in my life. That's not what they do. It's not what my parents got to do. It isn't what my grandparents get.

So I this I come from a different kind of working lineage. Yeah. And because of that, I don't try and entrust too much meaning into the job. like it's not supposed to give me fulfillment or community does I. But I mean I'm sometimes it does not all the time, but somebody does. But when it doesn't, sometimes your friends do. So my friends, I think my, my issue is for. for most people that job does not give that great sense of meaning. And I'm just like, we need to live in a world that even if your job doesn't give you that,

that's fine. But it seems that what you do and a lot of people. advocate is coming from it from the other side. Let's make these businesses give to people. what their general world should be given to them by. My, my. I don't. I hear you. Yeah. I just appreciate the irony of the thing you're railing against as. a thing that you fully embraced, which is if I offered you more, you said it's just a place to make money. Yeah. To serve my family and I'll get my community somewhere else. But if I offered you more money to work. Well, I'm a socialist. That's why. You know, champagne socially. Yeah, but. But it's like, whatever.

But if I gave you more money to go somewhere else, you wouldn't want to. You'd want to stay here because you, quote, unquote, like it here. And and you feel on some occasions that you actually are contributing. like the messages you're spreading. And the and especially on The Daily Show, you know, the stuff that you're putting out there. in some way, shape or form is informing people and helping. people understand the world and make sense of the world. That was the thing you were contributing to and it gave the work meaning. You didn't just come to work and be like, I got to work and write again. You're like, No, this is I'm enjoying this because I feel like I did. and maybe I come to it from a different vantage. point as like, as a mother, I have a lot of friends who have decided.

to spend like the very early childhood years. with their children, which is a privilege. And it's because the thing that takes you out of the home has to be so fulfilling. to be like, I'm not going to be with this kid. when they're learning to walk and they're learning to talk, etc., etc., Don't go anywhere because we got more. What now after this. and how do we better find.

not necessarily the purpose, not always the meaning, but sort of that that why? Yeah, but notice that it's always shifting. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? So I understand, like you're talking to a company. and you're saying to them, look, you are a collection of people, you know, and so you have to ask yourself what you would like. this collection of people to be moving towards. or how you would like them to even be with one another. Right? That's what that's what I assume you're doing. one of the day. Yeah. But then, but there are also people, right.

And so I wonder, you know, looking at your own life. or looking at all of the learnings that you've come across, is there a way. that we can all it doesn't matter where we are in our in our world, is there a way that we can always hone in on the sort of quote unquote, why that shifts? Because your point, I, I think it's great that a mother goes, I don't know about my job. and I think we should be living in a world where you are able to do that, because the same people who will complain about.

women like, you know, having kids. and all the same people who often complain about birth rates declining. Yeah, I always find that, you know, ironic that we like the birth rates. Look at the birth rates. And I'm like, but who do you think gives birth. and why do you think that they're not having as much birth time? You know? Yes, because no, really, I do believe that. So cost is so. Yeah. I would love to know what you think we could do. So, by the way, I think you and I agree more than not, which is just.

my attitude is is like it's the world is the way it is. Yeah. And if we're going to go to work, then work should at least feel like I'm contributing. And I and I want I want to go home at the end of the day, like, you know, if you work hard for something you believe in, it's passion. Yeah. If you work for hard for something, you don't believe in it. Stress. And I would rather people, even if they work really hard to be like, you know what? The sacrifice was worth it. Because I feel like my work has some value and meant in the world. It meant something. And when it's done right, it's gorgeous.

But the problem is and you said it. superficially, people say the same words, talk about the same values. The difference is they're not actually living them, are doing them. To go to your point about the why, the why is fundamentally an origin story. That's all it is. And a why does not change. You have one way your whole life and that's it. Because you are the sum total of how you were raised. You have one Why your whole life. One Why your whole life you are. Whoa, whoa. Simon. Now I'm going to be fighting with you before we go to.

Wait. What? Yes, you tell me. Mostly. Now we're out of time. You have one. Why? You have one? Why your entire life? Because you are the product of how you were raised. Okay? That's. I mean, you're not going like you are who you are, okay? And there's nothing that can happen. in your life that will make you not who you are. Now, you can pretend you're someone different. We would call you inauthentic. And when I uncover a why, literally all I'm doing is going backwards. Discover the patterns of what made you who you are.

And then I'm trying to put words in them. And it's the same for a company, Walt Disney, when it does things right, is fundamentally the origin story. Story of Walt Disney's vision of the world, this escape. from the stressful lives. that we have to go into this magical place and we can leave reality for a moment. That's literally what it says in the plaque. outside Disneyland, you know, And that's all. If you look at the beginnings of things, we can do a little here. Let's have a little fun. I've been having fun at just for the record, I'm only I have only been having fun.

Welcome to what Now is. I've only been having fun. Tell me something specific that you've worked on in your entire career. It does not have to have been commercially successful. Okay, But something specific that you worked on in. your career that you loved being a part of, and if every project was like this one thing, you'd be the happiest person alive. Something specific.

This is my thinking music, everyone, when I think properly. It would probably be. the White House Correspondents Dinner. Okay. Tell me tell me of all of the amazing things. you've done in this remarkable career of yours, what was it about the White House Correspondents Dinner that stands out. that you want to bring it up now? So I've actually thought a lot about this. So I'm also cheating a little bit, everyone,

because I do think about this all the time. The reason it was that for me. was because firstly, I had no boss. This is very important to me in life, right? I had no boss. Secondly, the thing had a natural conclusion right? It does not go infinitely. I think everything should end. I'm a big fan of endings. It's wonderful in life. Third is I could bring on whoever I wanted and it was a wide range of people.

By the way. Some people were writers, some people were not, some people were comedians. Some people would not have had those experiences in other jobs. When you were at The Daily Show, you could fill the writer's room with whatever you wanted. I mean, you had a boss, but kind. No, no, no. But it makes a big difference. It's like because at The Daily Show, for instance, I was working for somebody and the somebody I'm working for is the network. So you're always fighting this balance between what do you think. is important to do or creates and what are these people want?

Because you can do what you think is important. And if the ratings are terrible, at some point. they go, It's time for you to leave, Right? So now you and to be honest with you, I think that's one of the biggest problems. with television and art right now in the world. Right. If you look at the MGM logo, you know, Trayvon, our friend. who was on one of the podcasts, he pointed this out to me, even is like in Latin, we know when that lion roars before the movie. in Latin, it says the art for the sake of art. And I don't think we do that anymore. Yeah, I don't think we like people don't make movies.

because they think making a movie is a beautiful thing for people to experience. People don't tell stories. because it's like it just makes you feel good as a person. No. Okay. How much will it get it? Will there be a sequel? Can we get more money? I think. Is the franchising. Yeah. For you? The Correspondents Dinner was pure in as many ways as it could be. Yes, it was. You get on saying so and so. That's the thing. Everything in your life was like that. Game, game on, Game on.

Okay, Tell me. an early, specific. happy childhood memory, something I can relive with you. An early, specific, happy childhood. Childhood memory. Damn, this is an interesting one. Let me think. Because this many how give me an age and I'll tell you don't care. Now what would wind a childhood end. forties to okay. No, no I'm being serious I want when you're when you're. you know a child like under you know in school like my early.

childhood memory one of my happiest childhood memories is me. The only one who's ever asked me. What do you mean by childhood? Yes, because. Because I think. Because I think your memories at different ages are very telling. Early visiting childhood memory. Yeah. So. Okay. When I think of young, Young, one of my favorite memories was. playing. on the on the roundabout at a park near my house. This is something a specific time, not just a thing you did. No, no, no. This is one specific. Okay. Yeah. Go. And we were all seeing how we were all teaming up.

I got a bunch of people together to see how fast we could make this thing spin. But, like, it was, it was a monumental effort. Do you know what I mean? Because everyone had to be at the right place. swinging the thing at the right time to get it. Our goal was to make it fly. And that was the dream. We thought, if you spin it hard enough, it's going to take off. And this was. but that was one of my when I think back, I go like, Wow, what a day, what a day. And of all the amazing things you had happened in this magical childhood. that you've talked about, what specifically was it about this one thing that stands out so much.

that you want to talk about it now? Well, I think for me, it's many of the things. that I saying with the White House Correspondents Dinner. Right. It's collaboration. I chose the people I was doing it with. We didn't pick. the random kids. who when you had no coordination. because the things are going to smack you in the heads. Right. So we got the strongest, fastest, smartest like, you know, most affable, we put the people together and we were like, this works. So it wasn't like if you were a small kid, then your job might have been to be more on the inside. If you were the big kid, your job was to push. But we put people together and it matched in many ways.

And the most important thing, funny enough, Simon Sinek, the most important thing was that we were having fun. and I mean this genuinely. We were having we had a purpose, but man, we were having fun. So you so, so now what I'm doing is I'm. looking for the connection between those things you're saying. Okay, that's the common factor, right? You're the first person I've ever talked to, ever. And I've done hundreds of these who said, I'm telling you the same story. I can hear that they're the same story, but you're the first person who can hear it, who's able.

Yeah, I'm always cognizant of which thing, but I'm just so to just to pay you. that compliment that you're living outside your own head. The the but this is the thing which is you that. where you find great joy is when you can bring the right people. together to do something that matters and have a ton of fun doing it. Yes. Okay. And that's sort of your your purpose in life, which is to bring people together. to do something bigger than themselves and have a good time doing it right.

And if everything you do in your life you can. Is that is that, is that. Yeah. Merry go. Very go. We got to call a merry go round. Yeah. Everything in your life was like that round about you. That is what the game on is. Yeah. And so the opportunity for you is to remind yourself of that. Right? So whether you get a Lego merry go round or a picture of a merry go round. or just that merry go round, this is, I like, this is, I like sentimental. Right. The merry go round is, it's your, it's your talisman. It's, it's. the thing that reminds you of why you get out of bed today.

All you want to do in life is work tirelessly to create the merry. go round right? And and the thing is, is because you're you have vision. We're going to make this thing fly. Yeah. Okay. So people go, And you go. You, you, you and you. Yeah. Okay. And now they're all coming in and you're having a blast. And whether it succeeds or fails, it didn't fly. It did not fly. It did not fly. It did not. It did not fly. So it actually failed, if we're really honest with ourselves. But it didn't matter because it was the joy of the together.

and the fun, even with the vision that made it worth it. It was the exact same thing for the correspondents Dinner. You never said at any point, and I frickin nailed it. No, that's not the point, Right? The point wasn't the result. No, the point was the people outcome. As a bonus, I always say this. The outcome is a bonus. But now let me let me ask you this, because I just I love this for me. No, no, I appreciate it. But so the last thing I'll ask you before we go is this then. for the person and I think this is sort of what Christiana saying, for those who are not lucky enough to find themselves.

in that place in that moment, some people can't be in a park. They can't choose the kids. They can't. Do you get them saying so, you know, what is that? What is the trick that you would recommend? And I mean this honestly, because I go I really go every day. You are comparing your why everybody has. Yes. So like so. And it doesn't have to be a happy childhood memory. So I did this with somebody a few years ago and I said, tell me in early childhood memory, they said, I had a horrible childhood. Yes. I said, Well, tell me another another. Any memory? And they said, I had a very, very alcoholic, abusive father. And he would go on these drunken rampages.

And I remember hiding in the closet, and I wrapped. my sister underneath me to protect her from my father. And, you know, we're both crying as she's telling the story. She's a protector. She wakes up every day to protect those who can't protect themselves. I can dream. I can make my self bring myself to tears talking about it. Right. And she was struck by this pattern. that she's she's at her natural best and she finds peace. when she's able to offer protection to others from whatever it is.

And so these patterns exist for everyone. They're not the same as yours. Right. And whenever somebody hears that pattern, the result is goose bumps, some sort of emotional response. So all I ask you is for that person. Now, let's let's imagine. a person who goes, Simon, I don't have much in the way of my community. And this is because of, you know, a series of factors. You know, there isn't a club that isn't that, that isn't whatever. I work because this was the only job I could get. So I don't have the luxury of being recruited. and I haven't been found by where I would like to be found. Okay.

But I'm also looking for a piece of this. And my job is a soul sucking experience where they want me here from the earliest. time to the latest time. And I give all of my energy this thing. And then when I get home, I have to look after my family. And this is a how how do they find that or what? What are you saying to that person where they don't have the immediate luxury. of like springing out, searching for it, going to another place, doing another thing, what is like a loss? Because there's always something continuing struggle and joy.

Yeah. So I went to I went to Kenya this year. and we went into the Mara and, you know, to the poorer neighborhoods. And when we got to meet some remarkable, remarkable human beings and I started to. realize that we from the West come in. I mean, it's like your story. Yeah. You know, it's like we have it so good. Yeah, You have nothing. You live in a mud hut. How can you be happy? You know, I'll show you happiness.

Yeah. My house with all my stuff, right? And all they do is smile. And you look at the children and say they have nothing, they have no toys, and they've got a tire and a stick and they're laughing. And there's data on this that children that have more toys actually have. don't have as good imaginations. Yes, he's got a tie on a stick and he's got an active imagination. And those kids, those boys and girls, all they do is smile and play. And I met these remarkable people who absolutely.

their life is difficult and the walking for hours to sell, right? Yeah, it is absolutely a life of hardship. But they are happy and they have joy in life and they look after each other. And it's everything you said. When somebody needs a house, we help them build a house. and the sense of community they have. And it made me realize that we in the West are addicted to money. And and we look at other people. who don't have our addiction and we feel sorry for them. because they don't have our high like it's a heroin addict feeling.

Sorry for all the people who don't have a heroin high. And they're looking at us going, You're a heroin addict. Yeah, but it feels so good to be on heroin. Right? And that's us in the West. We're also so intoxicated with what the money feels like. We've forgotten about community, We've forgotten about sacrifice, we've forgotten about giving, We've forgotten about. We've forgotten about imagination. And I went in thinking, What can I give? And I came out saying, What, what, what have what must I learn?

Love that. But again, I'm just going to push you on this because I need a tip. I'll tell you why. I'll tell you why because I agree with all of that. But this is why I think Chris Young and our friends, because I understand a lot of what she's saying honestly, like innately. So what I'm saying now that people are in this situation, what's like a hack because there are some people who literally. they can't find the community because there is community. They they don't have the people around them. They live in a different country. Maybe they live there. Maybe their family doesn't even talk to them. Is there like a just like a little Yes.

Hack or something you can move that can move towards. Yes. Yes. And the answer service. yeah. I have a friend who was struggling. She knows what I do. And she came to me and said, I need your help. I said, okay. So we got together every Wednesday for 90 minutes. and she told me what she was going through. and her marriage is falling apart and her career was going the right way. and their kids were driving her crazy and just she wasn't having a good time. And every Wednesday I would give her some some counsel. and some advice, and she'd feel great that last for about two days.

And then she'd go back. and then she'd come back next Wednesday and she'd feel great. And you see this pattern. This went on for months and I finally sort of remembered my own work. And I remember, you know sort of my own work and service and like, I looked into Alcoholics Anonymous, you know, the 12 step program, the first step is admitting you have a problem. And if you master 11 steps, but not the 12th, you're going to succumb to the disease. But if you master the 12th, you're going to you're more likely to beat the disease. The 12th step is to help another alcoholic. Wow. It's service. That's the 12 step. So I said to her, I sort of I did a little like little social experiment on us.

I said, Every week. we get together and I help you and I'm realizing I need help too. I trust you more than anybody. You're my best friend. I love you. I need coaching. And it's been deadly serious. It wasn't a game like I can. We split our time? 45 for me, 45 for you, She said. Absolutely. So the next week we got together and we spent 90 minutes talking about me. and she gave me advice and she gave me counsel. And the next week we got together and just by accident. It's not like we planned it this way. We spent 90 minutes talking about me.

Within about two months, her life was back on track and she was golden. So what I recommend to people who are who are struggling. with whatever it is, I can't find love. I can't find happiness. I can't find a job. I can't find whatever it is I'm looking for. Find someone who's struggling with the same thing and help them. find the thing they're looking for. And by the way, it reinforces everything that we've been talking. about this whole time, which is community is the thing. But when we're selfishly minded, we don't build community. And if you look at all of those places that we've all visited. that we love, that have community, everything is about service.

It's all of it. It's all it is. Well, I don't have the time. I don't have the energy. That's where the sacrifice comes from. We find a way to find the energy to help you build your house. Even though I got my own struggles and and. the joy. of giving time and, energy and unredeemable commodities, unlike money, you know, you make more money. to someone to see the benefit that they derive. has an impact on human beings that is hard to calculate. A fulfillment that you get that is only can only be described as joy.

And the reason is because that is the biology of how we're designed. That is Mother Nature's desperate attempt to get the species to survive. And we will only survive if we help each other. That's why I feel so good. And that's what purpose is purpose. For me, the deepest meaning of purpose for me is it's the opportunity. to serve those who serve others. Damn, you sound like Mom. No wonder she was a service. Okay, we. Christiane, are you. I'm. I'm.

Are you going to know are you going to do the thing? No, because I agree with him now. No, but you say you don't want to find You want to do it another time. I'll do it in private. Okay. That's fine. I was just asking. I agree. I agree with the dude in private and the service stuff. It's. I think that's what it's about. That's a life well lived. Yep. Well, you see, as I said, I never know what's going to happen. when I sit down with someone today, but at the end of it, this. There's something else that I discover a new way to see. Like a paradigm more, you know. And I think everyone listening had the same experience. Simon Sinek, thank you so much for joining. Thanks for having me. Such a joy.

You got to take me to those. I'm in good company. I'll take you thinking about Chobani, the founder of that yogurt company. Yeah, I haven't met him yet, but I mean, I have a great reputation. I can take you if you really want to see some. Some cool stuff. We can take you to see some cool stuff. Thank you. What now with Trevor Noah is produced. by Spotify Studios in partnership with Day Zero Productions. The show is executive produced by Trevor Noah Simmons Yamin and Jody AV.

Again, our senior producer is just Haskell. Claire Slaughter is our producer. Music Mixing and Mastering by Hannah's Brown. Thank you so much for listening. Join me next Thursday for another episode of What Now. will.