What’s In An Accent with Lupita Nyong’o | What Now? with Trevor Noah Podcast

I've got to be interested in whatever I. I mean, there was a time when I was, like, obsessed with Linking Park. Wow. And nobody. That is freedom. And. Yes. Yes. That's the devil's music. With anything that involved an electric guitar. in my mother's house was the devil I remember in church. You know, we'd go to Sunday school. Yeah. And then, like, so I would go to different churches was like, you know, the African church, which is very simple. It's church and hymns and choirs and everything. And then we would go to like, you know, the whites part of it like that.

That was the church and was more like organized. And even when they would tell stories about, like the devil, like, remember the story when Jesus is fasting, he's just like, yeah. And then he gets tempted and then there'll be like, And then Satan appeared. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And like, literally, like when you say. Linkin Park, I'm like, Wow, you really did have a free, like, history. When you were free. I was reading. I was reading, Wow,

this is what Now. with Trevor Noah. Yeah. wow. Brianna would be that. Nice to meet you. You, Lupita. Of of all the reasons, I thought I'd be chatting to you on. On the podcast.

An African podcast is the last thing I would have thought of, And it's honestly my favorite conversation to have. you know, really, I was just like, I was like, Lupita's coming on. I mean, obviously you're always making movies, you're doing things yours. And then I was like an African podcast. I was in on so many different levels. This is exciting because here we are, three Africans, actually, let's settle the debate before we get into this conversation. Okay. Who are the best Africans, South Africans, Nigerians or Kenyans? I mean, what kind of question is that?

We're all subjective of we're all going to be well, you know, I told you so, I'm going to win number one. And I tell you, Kenyans are new. I know. I know that they already are like, this is subjective. And if you ask a Nigerian that's Nigerian, the best and worst Africans, if you means anything, the hubristic, you know, that's. right. Yeah. Kenyans are always like, always, What do you think it is like? Cause I found like South Africans. and like, we know South Africans are almost like the Americans of Africa.

Yeah. Like South Africans have always been like, we're the best. We got everything first and we're and then also we are in like. we just ignore everything happening to our country. So even when Kenya gets like advancements or even when Nigeria did, like when Rwanda started having dope internet. and South Africans are like, Yeah, but it's still Rwanda. See that to me? Yeah. But I feel like Kenyans are like quietly, like the cities develop. and things grow and. but I've never heard a Kenyan being like, Yeah, you have to come to Kenya. Never. Like, what do you think that is? Okay, I don't understand, but I mean, in like a braggy way.

yeah, we're not very we don't have a lot of braggadocio. It's not in our culture. Perhaps Nigerians opposite's the opposite. I love us. I just. Why would what's there not to love? Apart from, like, the corruption and bribery and all, you know, that kind of arrogance. Yeah. If I go someone, there's no Nigerians. I'm like, I have to go. There's no money to be made. Like if I visit schools, I'm like, Do you have. I haven't. Nigerian kids? No, not drunk. It's not. Wow. Like, but that is just so baked into me.

But I'm like a Nigerian from the diaspora, right? So maybe I'm kind of overcompensating the thing. One of the episodes of your podcast, you actually have a mother. who makes a Nigerian suit. that she I don't want to spoil it, but she takes it to New York from London, which you probably shouldn't do given the ingredients. Right? Typical Nigerian soup. Yeah, but it's just like it's it has that level of specific specificity. about like the soup people eat it stories we tell each other. Yes.

Like, how did you find these people? Well, I've always loved storytelling. and just cinema through the years has always been a thing for me. And growing up, radio was a big thing. And so coming here and learning of shows like. This American Life made a big impact on me. and my understanding of America from that more nuanced place. And so I wanted to make a show like that. And so I teamed up with a production,

podcasting production studio. They went out, hired stories, scouts around the world, who then would come just really emailing people, just, you know, going through their own memory Rolodex, you know, like that story was actually the mother of a story SCOUT wow. And that's how the stories got to me. They would then, you know, send me. like blurbs of all the stories that they had whittled down to. And then I would pick the ones that I felt were representative of a.

mind your own story. So, yeah, that's it. I'm loving the idea of this starting off in a very formal way. in a production studio somewhere in the U.S. and then by the time it gets to Africa, I mean, fundamentally. what you're looking for is like gossip. That's what you're doing. No, if you think about it honestly, all you're doing is you're just like, have you heard anything? You have any good stories for me? You know, anybody who has a story, that's all you really doing at some point too. Yeah. But what I love about the podcast is that you start with your stories.

and it like it, it adds such a, you know, such a personal flavor to it. It really takes you on a journey. You know, I it's the first episode, but the. losing your accent. just the idea of you travel to another country. and then on the one hand, you have the balance of. you want to make yourself, you know, something. in this country and you want the country to, you know, identify with you. You want to be embraced. Yeah. But then on the other hand,

you don't want to lose your people, your culture, your vibe, your language. Like, why was it important for you to make that the first episode specifically? Well, I think because it is the way in which I started my career. and it felt like a natural, organic jumping off. point to talk about identity and the crises of it. When you are a transient person. And this podcast is about for me, it's. about expanding our understanding of what it means to be African today.

and making that experience feel global because it is Africans are everywhere. Yeah, right. And so the way people know me obviously is a lot through my. my voice and here I am starting a podcast. It felt just natural to talk about that dilemma that I went through. about how to sound on a global stage. And do you feel that's something you still grappling with? no, I am not grappling it with it in the same way I've kind of I've accepted.

that I sound I sound mixed up. and confused, just like, you know. And sometimes it's sometimes it frustrates me because I want there's moments. when I want to sound more Kenyan than I can. And then mainly that's the the betrayal when like, I'm back home and I say something, I remember my my niece, I went back home. and I felt like when I'm back home, I could shift and I sound way more Kenyan.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. America. So I'm with my cousins. I'm feeling really chill. And my cousin, my little niece, she was probably four at the time. She goes, Why do you sound like that? And then I say, Like what? And she goes like a white somebody. Wow. Was so got. so, you know, white like a white somebody. And I was just so heartbroken because I was thinking, I'm.

sounding like everybody, you're back. I'm back. And she called me out. So, you know, there's those moments. I'm like, my God, I can't run away from my American experience. But for the most part I'm fine with it. So at this point, I feel like. my vocal expression. is malleable and that's okay. Reflects your experience. Yeah. Yeah. And I and I want it to be more malleable because when I'm playing a role,

I want to be able to lose myself in that accent, you know, and to study it. And it all starts technically. You know, for me, I can't do accents like you. You're a mimic and you're a very good mimic. Thank you very much. I have to study the IPA of the accent, you know. but that's what makes you brilliant. It's funny you understand the difference between the two. So for instance, I always tell people I go, I don't do accents. I mimic people. Yeah, okay. You know what I mean? So I like, find a person and I'm like, I like how they speak, and that's.

the person who sticks in my head, you know what I mean? So someone would be like, Do a London accent. I'm like, There's for me, I don't think there is a London accent. because when I'm in London, there are so many accents. I just go, This is my friend in London. This is how they speak and that's what I do. That makes sense. And then sometimes people will complain to me. They'll be like, They'd be like, Trevor, I heard your Trinidadian accent. And that's not how Trinidad am. Like, Yes, I'm not doing a Trinidadian accent. No, I'm doing my friend. Yeah, this is how my friend speaks. And he's from Trinidad, so you should go complain to him because I'm doing him.

Yeah, but it's also you are also owning your expression of that Trinidad. Exactly. Trinidad through you. Yeah. And that's cool. And I'm envious of it. I'm so envious. What? What did you. I would love to know what. What enabled you or what? What gave you the permission to not feel like you were losing something. or betraying something or because everyone has that experience? I I've heard countless stories of people who say, hey, you know,

we moved to this country from Mexico and I had a really thick Mexican accent. And I I'm ashamed that now I tried to change it to be American, but then my family feels like I'm leaving them behind. No, no, I moved here from from the Middle East. and I but I'm trying to get rid of the accent. But at the same time, my family says, Why are you letting go of me? Or what was it that allowed you to give yourself permission to say, Yeah, you know what? My accent is going to evolve and it's going. to it's just going to shift, depending on where I'm I'm staying for. the most amount of time. Was there was there a moment or my first.

the first permission I gave myself to. change my. accent or allow my accent to transform was going to drama school. Okay. I went to drama school because I didn't want to just be an instinctive actor. I wanted to understand my instrument. I wanted to know what I was good at, what I was not good at, and work on the things that I wasn't good at and one of the things I wasn't good. at was accents. I didn't know how to sound any other way than myself,

and that was the first permission that I gave myself. But it was full of heartbreak and grief, just grief. The process of deciding, okay, I'm going to. start working on my American accent and I'm not going to allow myself. to sound Kenyan so that I'm like monitoring. and really trying to understand my mouth. in a technical way to like, make these new sounds, making. those new sounds in a context that was in the classroom felt like betrayal.

You know, I didn't feel like myself. And I cried many nights to sleep. Many, many more. yes, I did. It was so frustrating because you were living in an American accent. I was living in an American accent. And so I told. my family and I would call home and I would speak in an American accent. So you like method based method with the accent. Okay. And there were moments where I wanted to give up, but I had this goal. I wanted to be able to succeed in an American market as an actor.

Now, I did all that work just for someone to tell me are now go. and sound like yourself. What? That wasn't another betrayal. I mean, I've done all this so that I can come out here. and people can be like, You don't have an accent. And then now someone is telling me, actually we need you, just as you were my goal. And so now I had to do it again. And when I, when I tried to return to my accent, I couldn't find myself in my mouth. I couldn't find the originals.

Part of me and my mom actually sent me a voice. note of how a of a speech I gave before I moved to America. And it brought me to tears. because I've never been able to sound like that and I never will. So it's it's an it it wasn't a moment. It was many things. And it is also people I love reminding me that I was enough, you know, And my mother saying to me, You're the way you sound. is a product of your life experience.

And that was like, You know, I don't my, my, the way I sound is representative of my my growth. And that growth involves America. You know, it involves Mexico. There are certain words I say, and I say them with a mexican with a Spanish accent. And it's just like, that's the way I say those words. You must be so thrown by that by the like. So I remember in Black Panther, when you're speaking Spanish.

and I remember watching this in the cinema. and the scene isn't like it's not like you're saying like one line. It's not like you're like your Nintendo También. No, you like speaking, You speak. And I will never forget this when we're sitting in the cinema. Yeah. And I heard people gasp, and then I heard a few people. like, whisper, like, Wow, she speaks Spanish. And tell me a little bit about that part. Like, for those who don't know, like, what is Lupita's. connection with Mexico and with Spanish? I was born in Mexico.

My father was in self-exile there for a number of years. and I was born in the last year that he was there. He was teaching political science at the university. And yeah, I was born there. And then we moved back to Kenya. like shortly after I turned one. And when I was 16, my parents were like, You know what? You have a mexican passport, you should speak Spanish and off you go. And they sent me to Mexico to learn Spanish. And so I spent seven months there and I did a very similar thing, actually.

It's what actually informed my decision to speak in an American accent. when I was in Mexico. After one month of being there, I said, okay, enough with the English, no more English. I'm only going to speak Spanish. wow. And for the rest of my time there, I spoke Spanish because I was like, I want to learn this language as fully as possible. And if I allow myself to have the crutch of speaking English to the people. around me and my classmates and stuff, I'm not going to pick up this language.

And so, yeah, I stopped speaking English and it made me a very quiet person. because I didn't have enough Spanish to like, you know, be conversational. Yeah, But what it did is it, it my, my brain. switched into survival mode, and that's the best way to learn a language. because you pick things up and you hold on to them for dear life. Yeah. You start creating some. That happened. Yeah. I would go to the market. and I would learn the names of foods and like they would register.

Yeah, okay. Because I need it for the next day. And I learned Spanish pretty well as a result. There's a study that I read. about. languages particularly, and it talked about how everybody. who can speak multiple languages also finds. that they have a different personality. in every single different language that they speak is Yeah. And so I would love to know like what what. personality traits do you find you have in the different languages.

that you don't have in the others and you wish you did? Because I know, I know when I when I speak English, I'm one kind of Trevor. But if I speak Zulu with my friends is a different kind of Trevor. And then if I have like the mixed everything this with my for. then it's an even it's a more different kind of Yes. Like do you know what I mean. What's Yeah. What are we not getting from English. Lupita. That, that is like hidden in all these other Lupita's Well this is. even that there we did, I was like, you know, so that was hard.

And the body language, everything. Yes, that's the one. That's, that's an African sound. Yeah, that is. Yes. And that's already. Well I have to English Lupita's right. Yes. Okay. The Kenyan English. And then there's the American English. Lupita. Okay. And I think with my Kenyan English, Lupita, I'm. I have I'm a lot spicier, I think. Okay, okay. No. And I can I'm provocative, you know, and this might be my family or maybe it's a Kenyan thing.

The way my family complements is to kind of abuse. here. So you think that jacket is nice? So, you know, I like that, and that's a compliment. And I tried that in school and like, people were so offended, I was like, okay, this is a code. switching thing, you know? So like that. So I'm a lot spicier, more pokey, right, right, right. And I'm like the Kenyan version of me.

and I use a lot more of those sounds. I mean, you know, Africans, we use a lot of sounds to convey a lot of. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So there's a whole lot more of that in my American the. version. Yeah. And. and then my Mexican self. Mexicans are very polite, right? And so I think I take on a more polite version of myself, you know, like there's even just two.

And who's that? Do you. Yeah. Like the whole doing that thing And I find I'm a lot more, I'm more tinier. in, in when I'm in my Mexican mode because Mexicans have this lilt. It's a very yeah. And the, you know, the pole and there's like and yeah. So I take on that personality a little more. Yeah. And then I mean look I'll say maybe my Louis self is very quiet riot. Yeah. You know, so what's so interesting is I feel that you've broken.

barriers for African actresses. So the Lupita that arrives at Yale School of Drama today. may not feel the same pressure. to change your accent because there's a reference for. but I'm African actress but yeah has to be the one to walk through that door. Yes in a way and do the thing that was hard to allow someone else come. If an actress comes from Nigeria or they're like, we know Lupita, we know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you know what I mean? yeah, you can say us because we've seen it happen.

So that person may be able to assume a completely different posture and just. have their natural accent in a way you couldn't 15 years ago and in exist. It's true, but I would still encourage that person. to learn other accents because without my training at Yale, I wouldn't have been able to play a Ugandan. I wouldn't be able to I wouldn't be able to do. Black Panther and try my hand at closeup. Yeah, I very carefully, you know, and even though even by the way, of course, I was great.

Thank. you. Must remember, like me and Lupita, like, that's what. like Lupita would call me and be like, Hey, I really want to nail this. And I was like, okay. And I'll get the whole puzzle contingent together. because I was like, Look, I know I have the ear for it. Yeah, but I don't speak it as fluently. But I would literally assemble everybody and I was like, Guys, we cannot allow Lupita to slip up here. Please. No, we are not going to let her down. And then all of us would have like a consensus, like from grandparents. all the way down, and we'd be like, This is the line.

How would she say it? And we're like, okay, this is the cool way. This is this is all like behind the scenes. And then I would send Lupita a voice notes and be like, You are. This is how well your dialect coach has. Like, this is the people have agreed, Lupita, this is how we would say it. And when we watched the movie together, like all of us were sitting there. like proud African grandparents and we're like, I'm going to pizza now. I guess I owe you guys pizza.

look, every single time you would like you, man, I don't really work, yo, I put it. And thank you for being there, SpeedUp, because, you know, sometimes things would change on set last minute and they're like, okay, here's something else we want you to send closer. And I'm like, my God. Like, So thank you. You nailed it a thousand times. So you nailed it. But yeah, so that the training. Yeah. Was not just about sounding American, it was about being able to pick apart accents and hear them,

you know, just hear the nuances and find the change in your mouth, your tongue, the vocal placement, the resonance, all of that. So learning how language and accent work. technically helped me to be able to actually play more Africans. Yeah, so I would say it's great to go into a program and to allow yourself. to expand beyond the limitations of the law of your identity. Yeah, Yeah.

We're going to continue this conversation. right after this short break. And talking about expanding beyond limitations, I often think. with African stories told by Africans, whether from Africa or in the diaspora, we always want to lean towards the more positive side. because everything is so negative in the Western media. But what I like about the podcast, there are a lot of like heartbreaking.

stories in there. I thought Evelyn Story about about being shipped. from Canada to Ghana against her will. That is an experience I know so many kids that were shipped back and their parents. took them and it's kind of a thing that's not spoken about publicly. But you really managed to humanize one of the sadder. elements of the African experience that needs to be told. But it's really done in a dignified way. thank you. And it's by giving the mic to the people who have experienced it and allowing them. to tell their story.

That had been actually my initial idea in the beginning. I wasn't going to share any of my own stories. And then nobody wanted to buy the podcast that. actually normalizing was like, Yeah, man, you have to. We want to hear from you. You are the gateway to the other stories. And so I had to. I had to be more open. than I intended to be more vulnerable than I intended to be. But was that, was that hard for you, by the way? It was because I, I have been very deliberate.

The way I present myself to a public is very curated. Right. And I do it sparingly. And I, I like to be buttoned up. And this podcast was about being messy here and, you know, and just showing more of like my my self when I'm at home. and my parents are all writers off and that's difficult to be. So you are very private African women.

Yes. Yes. Like we don't think about our office business in that way. Yeah. Yeah, I'm. I'm superstitious. Yeah, there's a connection there. Yeah. I was actually thinking about that when I when I was listening to you speak. And I was thinking I was like, It is very much an African thing. You don't air your business, you don't air your family's business. You don't even like your people's business. You know, in a way, you know, like I remember one day. I never thought of it like consciously, but one day I was back in South Africa.

That's when I still hosting the Daily Show. And someone came up to me in the street and they were like, Trevor, can I just tell you, man, we're very proud of you doing a great job. But most importantly, I'm so glad that you are not telling Americans. what is happening here, because that is our business. and paint our country for other people. Yeah, but when you are here, I was happy you are still doing. your When you are here, you are talking about our president.

You are killing us. What's wrong? But it wasn't Weekend America. And I was like, wow, it really is an African thing that we have. Like where I find like Americans are very much like, let me tell you everything that's it's tell all like met you and tell you. that's like it's a very tell all thing And even in the even in the industry. how like I'd love to know how you found the balance. and how you in the same way you found the balance in. like navigating like your accent and where you're from. How do you find the balance in like sharing in a world. where people want more from you,

but then also like maintaining like your privacy because people do look to you. and I've seen people go like, Lupita, thank you for sharing these stories. Thank you for sharing stories of heartbreak. or thank you for talking to us about like your journey in acting or like, like how have you found that balance. and still keeping what you want to be precious. and then knowing what you want to share with others? So I, I try and I am private, but I also want to be real. You know, and I think it's a negotiation between a. that I'll constantly and when I think.

But I also work from a very vulnerable place to be. an actor is to be vulnerable, at least for me. And while I'm taking on all these different. characters, I'm always putting myself on the line, right? Because I'm always exposing myself to things I don't know. And in the only way to do that is to remain tender and vulnerable. And so when it comes to my own life, I guess I think about, okay,

how how can this help? I want to be additive. I don't want to be I don't know. I masturbate. Sorry about the things that I share. You know, it's not so the things that I share, I want to share. because I feel it may be of use to somebody else. So that's why I talked about heartbreak, because it was so real to me. And I was looking at the landscape of of social media. and how we're always presenting almost positive side, truly,

almost perfect side, almost perfect side, almost aspirational side. And yet here I was going through something so. devastating. and I just wanted to be real about it. In order for me to be able to live in that realness, you know, and also so. that when people saw me, they weren't they wouldn't be surprised if I'm not. if I'm not if I'm not vibrant and vivacious, because this is not. a vibrant and vivacious moment and there is a time for everything.

And that was my time for grief. And then with this podcast, my deep, deep seated. desire was truly to kind of challenge that African. mentality of keeping things so closed. Because I think it. robs us of an opportunity to better understand each other, right? When you turn on the radio. And the only thing is the bad news, the gossip. and American.

like Hollywood affairs and and issues, we are robbing ourselves. of an opportunity to underscore and ourselves one story at a time. And so much empathy is gained when we can just hear a story that of someone. that is so unfamiliar, but going through something that is familiar to us. And so I want for us as Africans to understand each other better. and to go beyond our very limited expectations of ourselves.

because we're not having those conversations, you know? So hopefully this is contributing to our own. understanding of who we are today because we're always grappling. Don't you feel with like with tradition and modernity. and you know that thing of like, that's very UN-African, you know, you hear that a lot. But is it is it? And one of the ways to challenge what is African. is to actually get Africans talking about their unique experiences.

It's interesting. in the specificity of your podcast, I feel like you've tapped on something. that is that sort of touches on everyone and everything. You know, like America as a whole is a place where people. are always asked to sort of like check their identity at the door. But then what they don't realize is they also ask to then adopt an identity. But what is that identity? And America always struggles and grapples with this. You know, it's like you, you see it through our time. It's like the Irish get here and people like we don't like the Irish. You're not Irish until the Irish like, okay, we're not Irish, we're American.

And it's like, well, what is American and who defines what American is? Nobody actually sits and says, Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. But what is American? You know, And even in the UK, you're seeing this, okay, but what is British? What is English? You know, And when you go back to Africa, you even find people saying things. I remember saying to my friends one day, I said, Do you ever think about how. when we sit around and I've seen this mirrored in in America, we'll sit around with each other and we'll say, that's not that's not black.

Do it the black way or do it the. then I go like, But have you noticed how many times we will say that? And what we mean is it's not sophisticated, it's not considered, It's not, you know what I mean? So we feel like if it is sophisticated, if it is considered, if it is if it has a level of panache, then we like and it's not black. And it's like, well, who taught us this? Yeah, yeah. Who taught us that black is not suave? Who taught us that black is not, You know what I mean? Why does black have to be. only the negative things as opposed to like an evolution. of black in addition to something that is, Do you know what I mean?

Yes, I know exactly what you mean. And it's that reductive. Yeah. Identity. Yeah, completely. And one that is created by an exclusivity from another group. Right. And that in itself we have to challenge because who gave us that identity, who gave us those limited self-belief, you know, and we. get to reclaim ourselves on a daily basis.

I like using the word reclaim. I'll say this as a mother, one of my favorite stories in the podcast. is the breastfeeding story I got involved in. Well, not spoil it, but it goes some way. You don't think it's a disaster, but it's a great like it's. Yeah, but it's just like I can't. Whenever you think of breastfeeding I saw African women around me breastfeeding. That's why I made the choice to do it. But when it came to me having my first son, the images I saw of women breastfeeding didn't look like me. Because breastfeeding has become something that is associated with being a white,

affluent, privileged women who have the time to be at home with her child. Right? Yeah. But the images I saw, my mother and my aunts and it's funny, but like African women, breastfeeding is not something that you see on television. It's not something that I've seen depicted, but it's something I've spoken about extensively. in this episode of the podcast. Yeah. And it's that reclamation of things that we also do. You also do these very special yet ordinary things,

but it's not we're not necessarily associate with that. And the way we tell stories in the wild right now, how interesting. I'm coming to that. As somebody who like. has breastfed for a long time, longer than I would have liked to. six months and ends up being like a year. And I was just I was like, wow, this is amazing, that story. I wanted to share it because of how how outrageous it is. Yeah. And again, it breaks that thing of we don't share these things, you know,

because it's actually I don't know how true it is. that we don't share these things. And my cousins who are so ready to share. with how ready they were to share the story. But it's it's lovely to see how it's opening up other conversations like that. I hadn't even thought about that aspect of the fact that there's been an erasure. of imagery of Africans. yeah, You say that like this is stuff we're not willing to share.

And I do think we share, but we share in private. So it's refreshing to hear it public, right, Especially because we are growing more public, right? We're growing more global. Yeah. And so if we don't share these stories, then we don't. we're not present in in on a global. Yeah, that's true. And that's so important. And in the world of podcasting, I was so hungry to hear stories like this. That's why I wanted to make this podcast. And when people said no, I was just stubborn about it because I was like,

I know I'm not the only one who wants to hear these stories. I know that there Africans out there that would appreciate this. It's exactly that. The global conversation that I wanted to contribute to. Yeah, for Africans to gather and and see themselves with delight. And now it's time for a new segment. Coffee Connection brought to you by Starbucks.

I have to say. what Lupita is experiencing right now in her life. with the podcast and with the stories that she's connecting people to. is probably one of my favorite expressions of connection that I've ever seen. In what way? Well, like, we sometimes forget how wonderful and important. it is to connect to ourselves and to the wolves that we've come from. You know, we always we always connect going forward. And I think sometimes. it's only when we get really old that we think of connecting backwards. I know what you mean. Yeah. Do you know what I mean?

Like, it's always going forwards. It's always going forwards is always going forwards. And then you see old people. and they are really in touch with connecting back with. sitting with their friends, talking to grandkids, talking to their kids. So there's like a, there's like a beautiful. and I don't know what it was like for you, but when I was growing up, that was like the number one thing that my grandmother loved to do. It was like coffee and tea. Yeah. You know, they'd be like, until the coffee. Until the coffee travel tends to condense, you know what I mean? It was like, yeah, and that was the thing, like grannies love.

Yeah, but African grannies, it was always like, I've got my coffee and my tea and my bread. Like my great grandmother loved coffee and my grandmother loved tea, and they would just sit around with their bread and their cup of, of whatever beverage they'd chosen and they would just connect. And that's where you'd feel the stories. And that's why, you know, you hear all the gossip. That was my favorite thing. yeah, that's. I mean, what, coffee without gossip. It's funny. I saw my husband's. I went out yesterday.

I went and saw her in the Heights. And the first thing they said to me is like, Christina, do you want coffee? yeah. The Dominicans, they like coffee is such an integral part. It really is. Yeah. And it's like you can't say no. You have to say yes, even though. What is this style of coffee, by the way? Is it like a Because I know every region will have like a different vibe, but they make it in like this metal thing. I don't know the name of it and they put it over the stove. yeah. I've seen. Yeah, they put it for the stove and it's strong. It's like an espresso and they're like, It's. as much sugar as you want, but it's made with so much love. Yeah.

So I couldn't say no. And then we like cup over coffee. That's what I love. I just love, I don't know, till this day when I smell. coffee brewing or tea, my brain goes. There's a story coming up. Yeah, there's like, it has, like a warm feeling of like, tell me what's going on in your life or tell me what's happening. with the neighbors. Like, you know. Exactly. And especially, like, it's kind of low stakes enough to make someone feel comfortable. I like if you say someone lets me up for wine, then you like.

Yeah, you don't know. But it's coffee. Feels kind of casual. And then as it goes on, the gossip flows. It's my grandmother ever said to me, Travelers, grab. a glass of wine and I'll be like, Granny, what's going on in your life? And how can I help that? That would have been a red flag. Yeah. When a coffee is is the. What's it called? It's a green plant. Yeah, it really is. Definitely has a green flag. All right, well, that's our coffee break. It's time to get back into our conversation with Lupita. It's a great day for coffee. It's a great day for Starbucks.

We'll be right back with more. Lupita Nyong'o. You know, listening to you talk about the journey. of making your podcast, it highlights for me, like. the journey of like navigating what I called the data lie. So I have I have a few friends who are like engineers or data scientists. or this work in the field, and then like some of them work at Netflix, some of them work. for Microsoft, some of them, but they work at all these like tech companies.

and the biggest argument I will have with them is about data. And I always say to them, I go like, data is a liar. Right. Because data looks back and then tries to assume forward. And so it's limited in what it can tell you about the world. And when I'm listening to your story, I think of how many times it's funny. Norm, you know who we both know? As my manager, he said, everyone in Hollywood is in a mad dash to be second. And when yeah, when that line really stuck.

And he said, everyone, Hollywood is in a mad dash to be second o k. And I was like, What do you mean? And he explained it to me and I was like, Yeah, but this is so true. Think about how many times a story has been told. A movie has been made, a show has been created. And once that shows a success, like, let's say like a simple one, like The Office, you go like, no, people don't. You can't look at the camera and you can't. And then Ricky Gervais did it in the UK and was obviously popular. They tried things all the time. They bring it to America then, I don't know.

It becomes huge and then everyone does it. Now. All of a sudden, Modern Family, Parks and Recreation, everyone's looking in the camera, everyone's making a mockumentary, and now it's the most normal thing to do. Yeah, I mean, yeah. And then you, you look at the next story, you go like, let's make this I don't know if this or is there a market? Is it going to resonate? I'm hearing the same thing here in a way. It's like you go, let's make these stories. Yes. For Africans or like by Africans, rather. Yeah, but even for them first. Yes. And I can see people going, but Lupita, we just don't find Africans are big fans of podcasts.

Yeah, I've even heard people say that, by the way. Right? Right. Then I go like, Yeah, because no one on the podcast, but like, who are they relating to? Exactly. Exactly. You know what I mean? Yeah. Then why is an African person. going to just listen to some random podcast in Ohio, right? And then become like, I'm a big fan of podcasts. I was listening to one about the malls that are stretching throughout America. I'm like, Why? And I it's I like that. You. where do you think you got that from. this, this, this, this sort of obstinance idea of like, I'm going to push I'm going.

to think about everything you've done and how brazen and revolutionary it is. You know what I mean? You are a dark skinned black woman from Kenya. coming to America to act in the Hollywood movies. and not as extra number seven, but as lead character number one on the call sheet. Yeah, back when I was when I was watching Quiet Place, and I'm just like. I was watching I mean, I don't know if you still feel it. and I hope maybe you don't because you're in it,

but I was watching this and I was like, people, can we just pause for a moment? Yeah, this is this is a movie. And I think people take for granted. No one in the cinema is going like, That's interesting. When does when does the White Star come in? No, people just it's, it's her from like, like where did you get that from? Like this idea, Like, I'm going to push for the part because they say no. You go, No, I'm going to do it. They go, Hey, your accent is thick. You go, No, no, I'm going to do it. You know, they go, You're from Africa. You go, I'm going to do it.

Where do you where do you get that from? I would I believe. it's my parents. My parents didn't raise me. to be limited by my gender, my ethnicity, my nationality. They just didn't. And I think that that is where. because I am so grateful. that I had parents that supported me from day one.

And my parents are not your conventional African parent. My they never, ever told me who I needed to be except my mom made me take French. But other than that, like, it was all about what do what. are you interested in? And do that to the best of your ability? And because I was born in Mexico and I had this. Mexican name, I always had the feeling. that I belonged to someone somewhere else other than Kenya.

So I grew up always curious about this place that I was born. And I had books in Spanish that I didn't understand, and I would just. pore through them. with a longing to one day understand. And I think those things, like those feeding me with these elements of. global curiosity, really, really. I think gave me that foundation of I belong in the world, you know?

And at the time I wouldn't have said that. I didn't. I don't think that I've I've, I've moved through the world with like a, you know, chest out. I this the world's my oyster. Certainly not, but a curiosity and a. a disbelief that I am unwelcome. I love that. You know, belief that I am unwelcome. Yeah. Like my default is not to feel unwelcome. My default is to seek welcome, you know,

And so I don't look for rejection. I experience it, but I, I think I have more hope and faith. than doubt. as a default. So like, I remember when I when I got to. when I auditioned for drama school, I came all the way from Kenya, right?

My dad bought me that ticket to come to America to audition. I had three auditions. and it was NYU. It was Yale and it was UCSD. And these auditions were all taking place on the East Coast. And I would go there and people were nervous, and people were like, checking each other out. And I was just like, I have come too far. I've just come too far to be worried about you. You and you. I just can't.

I'm going to go in there. I know what I know. I don't know what I don't know. I'm going to give it my best. And then they're either going to say, Yes, you come. no, you go home. But like, I don't have time. I just didn't have time for self-doubt in that moment. Yeah. Yeah. You know, And so I think that may have translated in the room, you know, and, and then I got to school and people were, like, fretting about why do we have to do this and that. And I was like, I don't have time to fret. I need to pick whatever I can from this program.

and make the most of it because I get I have just come too from too far. Yeah, I just cannot I cannot be. I was so grateful also to have the opportunity to just focus on my art. I did not come from a society that was supportive of my my interests. No, my parents were and they always were safeguarding my interest. But my extended family, they were like, When are you going to get serious? You need to do something of mine. You know what I mean? It's just. you. When you know this, this.

Why do you act like a doctor, you know? Yeah, this is acting. Acting? I'm on. Do you have to get serious? You know, And I got that a lot. So I was the. I was often the child. I was often the the the the friend that my my friend's parents. wouldn't let me come to their house was a bad influence. because I had my hair was blue, you know, I was with that kid. Yeah. I was weird. I was always like unconventional right. And so being that oddity, like,

by the time I got to this, I was just like, No, I've got to get on with it. I can't. I can't allow for someone else's doubt to stop me. I kind of for my own doubt to stop me. You know, I have to I had to externalize. externalize the rejection. and not allow for myself to to inflict myself with the rejection. Lupita, I'm really curious. Do you think something about being raised in Kenya kind of insulated you.

from a lot of the messages that I think young black girls, particularly black. girls, experience in the West amongst colorism, complexion, hair, and because it seems like you just gave yourself the latitude to take up space. Yes. But, you know, I did experience colorism as well growing up. I experienced that and I experience a lot of of I had issues with self-esteem. So I wasn't spared that. But the difference is that I came from a majority population. So my issue was not being black.

It may have been being dark, but my issue was not being black, I think. And so I was not othered in that same way. And as much as I was being teased by how dark I was, everybody was done. the same. You know? So the. self-worth thing there was always like counters to it. Yeah, right. And so I didn't have a society that was limiting me in the same way, you know, And, and I didn't have a political system that I was fighting against in that same way.

And I had other markers of identity. I, you know, I was a woman, I was a Luo, I was upper middle class. There were other things that I was kind of. anchoring and contending with. Then just this question of like my my external self. Yeah. Being the only marker of my value. And I have a lot of empathy for. the just the experience.

one must have of being raised in America where that value system is so much. It's just such a, it's a lot more drastic. because of the racial history paradigms and the history. And I definitely feel grateful. that my identity was built in internally. Don't go anywhere because we got more. What now after this.

and why? But yeah, so, but the idea that like my black card would be snatched from me. No, that's not a thing exist because I didn't have that's not a thing. I have that language. I was, you know, I didn't use that racial language. It was just She's weird. She's just weird, you know? Yeah, but I was not it's not a larger you. I don't know is it's just not a larger indication. Right. So I was allowed to. So even though it was met with a side I, I was allowed to self express. a whole lot more and figure out my individuality.

without we are without that. that sort of like a cultural or. Yeah just. that tension because you have like this beautiful confidence right. That you and you're very poised and you, you carry it through the well. and it seems like America hasn't affected it at all. and that's a very difficult thing to do. I would say when I came here, I was like, or just being raised in the West, being black,

where you're confronted with these ideas all the time of your value. being less than that, you're always having to overcome fights against, but you seem to retain a great sense of self. And how have you done that? I'm curious. Well, I think it helps that I came here as an adult, right? So when I first came, I was 20. and so and I had to. it was a crash course and I'm learning America. And as an African,

you can ignore the racial dynamics but you all you're going to feel. Yeah. So I went to a liberal arts school where people were asking these questions. and the idea of racial. what is it called? Just just racial. awareness theory, understanding that history. was something that I was thrust into and. and picked up on. You know, and I, I have a.

a a group of friends that were always inquisitive. and talking about these things in very, very deep ways. I mean, we never had light conversations. It was so deep and exhausting, actually. But, you know, I was able to develop a racial understanding, but in a way that wasn't. formative, right? It was it was my brain first before my heart. yeah, right. My brain first. And then, of course, doing 12 Years a Slave was very, very helpful for me.

because I had to go back in history and take that time personally, you know, that period of time very personally. And it really helped me understand modern day America with a lot of. empathy, you know, that I can now. I felt in a in a in a very personal way. But I think I really I don't know. I don't know whether I have a formula or an understanding of it. It's it's something that I don't question, you know,

And I think, like, if I if I try and understand it, I might jinx. it, might lose it, I might lose it, I might lose it. But I, I remember like my mom, there was a time when my visa ran out after my undergraduate degree. I had done 12 Years a Slave, but I was an A, I was on Opti when I did. How long a student visa? I was on student Visa. Right, Right. Well. Student So that it was only for a year, right? And it was running out 12 years.

It wasn't out yet. And I was facing this thing of like, do I try and stay or do I go home, you know? And I got this project. They offered me this role. I was going to play a like a Nigerian maid. And it was just so and it was infuriating. It was one of those stereotypical roles that I felt was just taking me backwards. as if I did it. But if I did it, I got to stay in the country and pursue my dream for them. And I couldn't take it.

I couldn't take it. And my mom said to me, You have a roof over your head and people who love you in Kenya, you do not need to struggle in America for them, for them to accept you. You are accepted here and being reminded of that, that I belong somewhere. I belong to a people. I think that really bolstered me. And I chose not to do that project. And in the end, of course, yeah, everything.

worked out. This is the good news. But I think I really want to give my parents credit. because they instilled in me self-worth. that I go back to again and again and sometimes it slips. But I have my family to remind me of who I am, right? And I know that I am not. I am. My value doesn't come in what I've achieved. It comes from who I am and who I am, like.

who I am continually trying to be. I can't help but think about how important it is. for countries and societies. to adopt many of the ideas that you speaking about now. Because I remember I remember speaking to a friend of mine. from Compton and comedian, and we were chatting about life as a, you know, an African-American, as an African, and we were comparing our experiences and our lives. And so many there were so many similarities. And I said one day he looked at me and he's like, man, he's like,

he's like Angola. He's like, We it feels like we live the same life. He said. He said, But man, he's like, I still wish I had. I still wish I had home. And I said, What do you mean by that, really? And when he described it, he said something that I realize. America as a whole would I think could stand to benefit from. what you said in in Kenya. No one could take away your black card. No one could take away your Kenyan card.

Do you know what I'm saying? No one takes away like your Nigerian card. No one takes it away. Your South African card. We will fight with each other in South about everything. you are this your trash, you, this, your up, your down, whatever it might be. But no one will say you're not South African. Yeah. And I listening to you, I help but think about like how America. has unfortunately created the system where people's belonging can be, like, taken away and then given back and then take and on different levels. You know, you look at African Americans, it was you're not American, okay?

You are American. And now you complain. Then you're not American, you're not American and then not American and not no, you're not. And then it's like, okay, you know, you know how black, you know, And it gets taken and it gets given. It gets and then now it's almost extended to everyone. How dare you complain about this country? You're not American. We maybe you need to go to another. And it's it's powerful to hear you you saying how much. peace and confidence it gives you knowing that you are here. regardless of like your actions, your successes, your contributions,

your mom saying to you, hey, just you have a roof, you have people who love you, Imagine the power that would have like. when a country would say that, hey, yeah, you don't agree with this. You don't. You still American? Yeah, you know. Yeah. You know, that is such a powerful thing. Yeah. To to really, truly believe that you're enough. But for a country to, to support that narrative, I think something that America does really well is create narratives about itself. Definitely. Right. And that's why you can it's like you either fit the narrative or you don't.

Who's determining which narrative is the American narrative? You know, there is that thing and it is unfortunate. And it's only now that I'm realizing, talking to you. the way that. my consciousness is different because I. my my Kenyan ness has never been in question, even when they're fighting between Kenya and Mexico, about where I feel. like for me, there's no question.

Right. And also I'm not limited to that, that paradigm. Yes. You know, like I'm not trying to be Kenyan. I just am. Yes. Right. I don't have to prove that I'm Kenyan. Exactly. Even if people would want me to, I don't have to prove it. And like I also realized my father fought has been fighting for the country. I mean, we gave up. We we basically. growing up he was like more.

therefore the country often times than with us. Right. And so the fact that that blood, sweat, tears of my uncle. disappeared and was never found again, my family has fought for that country. in such a way that like it belongs to me. And I remember when. when I when I was here and I was working on my green card. and working towards citizenship, I was debating whether I was going to.

apply for citizenship. And I asked my dad, like, Daddy, what does it mean if I apply to be a citizen of America? Like, how does that make you feel? He was like, I'm only that. the country is yours as much as this one. The world is yours. This idea of borders is something we made up. Yeah. You know, so we get to belong, you know? And it's unfortunate that these political systems. that want to convince you that you don't belong,

but you're of the earth, you know, and it's yours to claim. Yeah, I love that idea. And whenever I meet people who don't fully understand it, I've come to realize. that they do it in their own lives without knowing, you know? So people were like, Well, you got to choose. I don't like it when people say, there, there, you know, something, American. I don't like it when people say there's something. Then I go like, But you do that as well. I'm like, Where do you live? And without even flinching, you'll tell me, Well, I mean, I'm between you know, I am between New York and Connecticut.

I'm I'm between Florida. New York, unlike people do it all the time. There's this there's a there's a honesty and duality that exists. You know, you can be like both a mother and a woman. And the two, while they overlap, aren't necessarily the same thing all the time. Yeah, you know what I'm saying? You can be young and this you can be, you know what I mean? It's like a big unity. It really is. And it's the nuance and ambiguity that I that I think is is really beautiful. But I would love to know, like where you see these stories or these ideas going, you know,

your your whole your whole journey has been such a wonderful evolution. You know, it's as you say, it's like 12 Years a Slave. You, you would be. forgiven if you took the path that was presented to you. after 12 Years a Slave, which is like, okay, you do this very well. And so we would like you to do it forever. And I must also say this question is not about Hollywood per se. It's just that you happen to work in a film industry. But I think a lot of people deal with this.

You did something well and so World said to you, Hey, do more of it. And then you went and did something completely different. And they said, wow. yeah. Okay, do more of that and mean said, No, I'm going to do something completely different. And like, okay, do more of that and do more of that. But here you are. I mean, with a podcast that is telling stories. about Africans that everyone can enjoy, by the way, like people. I hope people listen to to understand they're really funny and interesting. And the best way I can explain it to you is don't go like, but will I get it?

As an African? So I got like, No, think of it this way. All food basically has the same ingredients. We just cook with different spices and different flavors. And so it's like, try a story with a different flavor. That's that's really all it is, you know? And so I'd love to know where you would like to see this evolution. continue towards like what it. what is Lupita dream of doing beyond just telling the stories in the podcast? And I know you're always thinking bigger. Where do you hope to go now? Well, my, my secret. and intention with the podcast is first, all I wanted to popularize.

African perspective, because one of the challenges is. when you go in with an idea for an African story, they still scratching the head like, Who's the audience for this, you know, and all that. So that was my intention, was to popularize African perspective in the hopes. that maybe some of these will be a movie one day, you know, like right. And like it gives more of an opportunity for people to be like, yeah, it seems familiar, you know, And it's a it's a light lift.

You just spend 40 minutes with me once a week. That's not much to ask. You're in traffic anyway. But you know, and so in that sense, hopefully it works on the subconscious. of people who are not African, who are not familiar with Africa. to just recognize it as familiar. in a way that then we can grow. and contribute to it, becoming more of a global.

perspective. Yeah, so there's that. I love that idea. I really do. And I think if there's one person who is genuinely just talented and, you know, stubborn enough to achieve it is, you know, because you push you like, you like your line, it'll it'll really stick with me. It's like not expecting the rejection, not accepting the rejection. Yeah. Experiencing it. Yeah. But really saying no. You know what? This is where I'm going. This is what I'm trying to do. And the world is a better place for it. Thank you for spending the time with us. Thank you.

Thank you for sharing the beautiful stories. And a wild robot is out as well. That's going to be amazing for people to watch. Lupita Nyong'o, as always, an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much. This has been amazing. I appreciate how. What Now with Trevor Noah. is produced by Spotify Studios in partnership with Day Zero Productions. The show is executive produced by Trevor Noah, Sanaz Yamin and Jodi AV. Again, our senior producer is just Hackel.

Claire Slaughter is our producer. Music Mixing and Mastering by Hannah Brown. Thank you so much for listening. Join me next Thursday for another episode of What Now?