Wesley Morris: How Critics at Large See the Stories We Miss

[music]. It's fascinating to look at when. Superman movies come back and when they. don't and when they do well and when. they don't. And there's a moment when. America's telling a story about itself. being exceptional and fighting the. Russians and fighting communism. Superman's the thing. >> Mhm. >> And then that story like fades away. Superman fades away. And then the. Superman that becomes popular and comes. out is like a gritty non-supermany. Superman. >> That's the Trump. That's the first Trump. Superman. Yeah.

>> That's like the And then now the new now. the the American Superman sort of thing. is like back and the parents are even. more folksy and the you know what I. mean? It's like a it's it's interesting. to think about like [music]. what we're experiencing in our world and. then the question. then the question becomes [music]. is the art imitating life or is life. imitating art? [music]. This is [music] What Now with Trevor. Noah.

This episode is presented by Whole Foods. Market. Eat well for less. [music]. You guys both have like old men names. >> Um, you know, [laughter]. horrible. >> No, but it's true though. >> Yeah. Like. >> Wesley Wesley is a very like not now. name is a young person. >> Yeah. Yeah. Wes. Wes. But Wesley. I. would like to see the birth certificates. cuz I'm sure they're not even bothering. with the le. >> No, but think about it. Wesley is a is. like an older name in that way.

>> And then Eugene is also a name. >> I prefer mature, not older. [laughter]. >> I mean, you can take it the way you. want. I meant it not as a slur or a. slight cuz I I don't see age. >> What do you see? >> I I uh [laughter]. >> Yeah. No, I I was just talking about. women's names that you're just never. going to get again. >> Ruth, >> Ethel, >> Ruth, Ethel,

>> Margaret. >> My grandmother's name was Martha. >> Oh, I like Martha. >> Um, that's kind of not dead yet. Um, there's there was a Hazel, but Martha always felt incomplete. >> Why? >> My mother Martha Anne, >> you see. >> Martha Anne? >> Yeah, Martha. >> That was her. Yeah, Martha Anne. Everybody called people called her. Martha, but only if they didn't know. there was an aunt. If you knew it was. Martha Ant, then it was Martha. >> It was Martha Ant. Yeah. >> Where's your mom from? >> Uh, Philadelphia. >> Okay. >> Judith. There's another one. My mother's.

name is Judith. My father's name is. Arnold. >> Arnold can come back. >> Really? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> I don't know. >> No. >> What do you mean no? >> I I know. >> Yeah. When's the last time you met an. Arnold? >> Yeah. But guys, all these names and I'm. actually You're the perfect person to. talk to about this stuff. It's perfect. to have these conversations with you. >> and um I want to say thank you and. apologize to you for not giving you like. a full idea of why we're here. >> Right. >> I I had been asking and then I was like. you know what I trust these guys.

>> Thank you. >> So I I'm here not ordinary I'd walk into. a blind environment and not know what I. have been. But for Negroes I WILL DO. [laughter] IT. for two negroes. I will definitely I. will do it. >> So So let me explain, right? The reason. I say you're the perfect person is. because of what I would like this. episode to be. I was trying to explain. to a friend the other day what a critic. at large is basically doing. [laughter]. >> See, I I am that friend. Go ahead.

>> No, no, no, no, no, no. But I was Oh, yeah. It was you. So [laughter]. >> for a second I was like, are you taking. the look alike to him? >> It was you. [laughter]. You see how he was like. >> we're all one. >> Must have been another one. >> It was we are all one. [laughter] So. >> what office are you running for? >> Okay. Trevor Buddhaj. [laughter]. >> So. >> not even Pete wouldn't even try that. >> Yeah. Pete wouldn't do that. Don't. slander Pete like that. >> Okay. Okay. >> You were right here with him. Don't. slander Pete. [laughter]. >> So um what what I was trying to explain.

was like your superpower. And I. genuinely think it's a superpower. It is. the ability to look at culture, notice trends that other people may not. necessarily be noticing, >> but then go beyond that and understand. what the trend actually tells us when. you correlate it with something else, its origins, its its moment, its. significance. And I know someone. listening or watching this might be. like, wait, what did you just say? You'll see it unfold. And names is like. a perfect place, right? You just said,

>> which name is never? Judith is never. coming back. Margaret. >> Arnold is never coming back. >> Those are my but my parents' names. Methyl and aunt. >> Uh yeah. >> So good. >> Yeah. But I'm saying. >> I think we're holding a seance here. [sighs]. >> Did she Did she also [laughter]. >> Did she like wearing purple? >> Ethel. >> Yeah. >> 100. Ethel was basically purple. >> I see her in there. >> But that's that's alcohol. [laughter]. >> I just just.

>> So this is what I mean. Names are like a perfect place to start. this conversation in. >> because there's a generation that'll. have a name, right? >> Yeah. >> So now we go, "Oh, there's no more. Judiths. There's no more Ediths. There's. no more this. There's no more that. There's no Then I go." Yes. But all it. takes is one moment, >> one elected official, >> one famous athlete, one. >> movie star, like a name, a character, something, and all of a sudden it comes. back. >> Right. >> Yeah. I like this. This is I This is.

definitely persuasive. There's one. problem. >> Let's go. >> Well, I think that the cycle has. basically begun to eat itself, right? >> Oh. >> So, like it's a it used to just be maybe. a line, but now it's a circle. So, you. know, >> explain the line. >> The line used to be people would get. born. >> Yeah. >> They would die. Okay. The names wouldn't. get too crazy cuz everybody was.

essentially well there were circles and. then the the browner, the gayer, the the. more. the less from England, Ireland, Scotland, Germany became. >> So less less euroentric. >> Yeah. Mhm. >> the more. the more interesting the names got in. terms of spellings, >> in terms of just the variety of options. >> But I think culturally, I don't know I.

don't know when to say this started, but. it definitely feels like in the last. 20 years, I think that like when you're. talking about like what you need as a. very famous person to to then change the. name conversation. >> But I mean, think about it. It's all. Taylor's and Jacobs and Travis's and. Jason's and. >> Trevors. >> and Well, not not as many Trevors. >> Trevors still would be like what a gift. this Sorry.

>> Thank you. >> Sorry. >> What a what. >> a gift. >> of of of a kind of variety. Eugene dead. Wesley dead. >> LIKE COMING, >> RIGHT? [laughter] SORRY. Like. >> Oh, no. No. You're You're out. You're. the last Eugene. Um I just I don't know. like we're going to get a lot a lot less. interesting names and I think in this. country in terms of you know I the the. play a place to look is like what are.

>> like people from other countries like. especially Asian countries what are they. choosing as their like American name. >> right. >> like what are what are those names. because. >> I just want to live in a world where. like Yun is just that's the new James in. the US. >> That is the name, >> right? They're like white kids walking. around being called Yun. >> But I don't know if we really want that, but like the odds odds are low because.

of the way assimilationism works here, right? >> Like the assumption is Yun won't get. into college if he's Yun. Yun won't get. a job with some white people if he's. Yun, right? So he's he's James, >> period. And I think for is for as I. don't know what lots of other cultures. are doing but predominantly if you come. here and you want to make it you can't. be sand deepep you got to be Sandy you. got to be Sam. >> um I think that still feels true like.

I've meet a lot of South Asians for. instance who have not changed their. names or changed them but like ascribed. some given themselves some new name. >> Yeah. Um, but in the meantime, in order. for the name thing to change, like. here's a here's a test. How many Baracks. do you know? >> Only one. >> Right. Exactly. I think there's. something about I also was like naming. your kid Jesus in a way.

>> It is a bit like it's very unique. >> Yeah. Ex. We had the same thought. >> Yes. >> Yeah. Um, >> we did. >> Yeah. You just You said Jesus. >> What else? What else do you have? >> I have $5,000. We don't have $5,000. We don't have the. same thoughts anymore. [laughter]. >> Definitely. Do you Was that a thought to. get $5,000 or to like have in [laughter]. your possession $5,000? Um I don't know. I there there are. interesting like things. Okay. I mean, Donald, that's a dead name. I don't care.

how powerful, how cataclysmic. >> Not coming back. >> Nobody. Donald's not I don't care how. much they love this. >> Donald has become ubiquitous. What's. become like too like singular? >> It's oldfashioned. It's just not a cool. name. >> Then why didn't Barack catch on? >> I don't know either. >> He was love. >> I think that's too ethnic. >> It's considered too ethnic. Just think. about the US, right? >> Just think about the way that Americans. brainwash themselves into believing that. things have to seem, sound, feel.

American. >> Yes, he ran the country for eight years. Yes, many, many people professed to love. him. But the real test is would you name. a baby after this person? >> And I don't think even Donald I have you. have you heard about Donald? >> No. >> I don't know what the We should look up. the top 10 names in the last like 10. years. But I don't believe Donald is on. them. >> So you see what you've just done now is. why I wanted to have a conversation with. you and why why I wanted to have you on.

My dream and my goal is that by the end. of this episode [laughter] you help us. >> this episode. >> Yeah. this episode you help us to. understand. >> or help us learn how to process the. world through the lens of a critic at. large because I'll try I'll try and. break down what you do and you'll you'll. correct me on the other side of it where. wherever I go like astray [snorts]. >> when I think of what a critic at large. does. >> the first thing I do is I have to. separate it from a critic generally sure.

>> so a critic is somebody who is. criticizing or um commenting on the. elements of any particular thing, food, movie, etc., but that's it. A critic at. large is somebody who is looking at. society, all of the elements that are. within that society, >> and then tries to notice how the shifts. in that society are telling us a story. that the society itself doesn't notice. >> You know what I mean? And and and so. like when I was when I was thinking of.

examples, actually, I'll I'll play this out with. you and I'll see if I'm if I if I have. it right here, >> okay? Would you write about. the US Open just coming back to New York. for another year? >> No. >> Okay. >> No. >> Would you write about um. uh SA Yanick SA beating. um just like a random person in one of. like the early rounds. >> Okay. Uh perhaps.

>> Okay. But it's not that's not a yes. I. mean, depends on who who won. He played. Dennis Shappalov in like. >> the fourth round or maybe the fourth. round, I want to say. Uh, that was a. good match. He took a set off him. Maybe. the third round. Um, but no, that would. I mean I I would that would be a data. point. I would make a mental note. Remember that Dennis Japalov got a set. off Yannik Center. >> Okay. Would you write about people's. reaction to Carlos Alcarez cutting his.

hair off? >> Yes, 100%. >> That's the Ed Lodge pot no-brainer. >> Do you see what you remember what I told. you? So now I would love for you to. explain why cuz you love tennis. >> Yes. >> You are absor you are observing a US. Open as it's playing out. >> Yes. Why is it that Carlos Alcarez. cutting all of his hair off and the. reactions to it is what you would write. about at the tennis and not the tennis. itself? [sighs].

>> Well, it's connected to the tennis. >> Yeah, of course it is. >> Um, it's that the US Open is the place. where people do the weirdest stuff to. themselves. Um, I mean, just like a recentish history of. weird clothes in here at the US Open. There's a player named Dominic Robati, H. R A B T Y, >> who showed up at the Open, I'm pretty. sure it was the Open, and he had his.

shirt had two vents in the back. They. were like cut out of the shirt like two. holes. >> like where wings might maybe have once. [laughter] been. >> like angel wings. >> Yeah. >> And he played I mean I don't know he. maybe lasted to the third round. He was. one of those Robati was one of those. players like he could give you trouble. every once in a while and he would he. would make it to the third round of just. about every tournament. >> Um but he wore that outfit and it's like.

what what's the story here? And you. know, he it just got him a lot of. attention. It was a weird thing to wear. and it made no aerodynamic sense. He. claimed I think the claim was that it. did. It helped his tennis. Okay. It. helped something about the air flow on. his back and it just felt really good to. hit a backhand. Um Serena, every great. terrible thing she ever wore pretty much. happened at the US Open. >> Wow. So into this history of like things.

people wear at the US Open comes Carlos. Sarez who was wearing in his sort of. purple get up, you know, purple, magenta, whatever get up, you know, standard pretty good thing to wear at. the open, but he shows up with a. haircut. They It looks like he got. 30 seconds before he got on court. Yeah, >> you could still see me. >> It was like Yeah, it was a fresh fresh. fresh fresh buzz fresh. But I thought. the final was not no. >> was actually the final result. >> No. Well, the final it's like funny.

story about the final is. >> we learned how fast hair can grow. [laughter]. >> because by the end of the tournament he. looked like himself again. >> So when was the haircut in to the. >> claim was that he wanted his brother to. touch up his haircut? Maybe that day and. you know made a mistake. This is why you. don't I mean there this is. >> you don't buy it. >> Oh, I believe it 100%. I believe it.

>> Well, wait. Oh my god. Do I not believe. it? >> You know, >> I didn't even give it a second thought. >> I believed it. Eugene doesn't believe it. at all. >> I I I don't buy it. There's something. also I don't buy at the US Open that. I'll talk to you about. >> Wait, wait. So, you don't buy it at all. >> I don't buy it at all. >> What do you think happened? >> Here's a critic at large. [laughter]. >> No, no, but tell me why you don't buy. it. Here's a critic. But tell me why you. don't buy it. having a conversation. about about it. Yeah. Because I feel. like there's certain sports or certain. arts where you need to do something. crazy to stand out and I think cutting. your hair. >> Oh, interesting. >> Is one of those.

>> But having a mental breakdown and a. meltdown is winning. >> But don't go but wait, don't go far. We can come back to that. >> Wait, but my question here is. >> so Yes. I want to know. why you think the person wouldn't just. cut their hair and then cuz I mean the. days are gone of athletes like being. afraid. Why do you think he wouldn't. just say, "Yeah, it's my new look.". >> Because I think he knows what the impact. would be uh of him appearing different. >> Here's my rebuttal to this cuz I've.

thought about this. Well, this is I have. thought. I didn't think that I didn't. think the way you were thinking. So, hats off to you. >> Um because that's that is interesting. But what I thought was this is clearly a. mistake because first of all it looks. terrible. >> It did. >> It looks like a mistake got made and. they just decided, you know what? Shake. the edge a sketch. [laughter]. >> Just it never happened. >> You know I'm going to say that to people. who make mistakes. No. [laughter] Shake. the edge of sketch. >> Just Well,

>> it is a great line. Shake the edge a. sketch. I mean, just [laughter] like we. don't want to shake the etches sketch. anymore. We're over. We need to re keep. drawing. Just keep turning them. Make. something new. Don't shake it. And then. put it in the Smithsonian and lock that. up. [laughter] Um, no. I thought. it's got to be a mistake. You're in New. York City. I don't know what the per. capita barber situation is here versus.

the rest of the US anyway, >> but there are more people who could give. you a great haircut. >> easily. >> in he's in Queens. >> Yes, >> he could go. I mean, I'm sorry. It's got. to be a mistake. But also, the idea that. nobody said like like Francis Thafo. wasn't like, "Listen, when I'm in New. York, >> here's where I go cuz you got to get a. line up or just you need to shape it up. Get a line. Get something cuz this is.

this is not working. This is a mistake. You can't go out there like that." Went. anyway. Looked like he just fell out of. a calf's butt. is how is how fresh that. haircut was. He looked like he just got. bored. It just I don't know. But what. was interesting to me was that he. addressed it and pseudo apologized. And. that's that's what made me think of you. I went, >> "We don't expect this of you, Carlos.". >> Yeah. >> You got the best hair in men in men's. tennis. Why would you do this.

>> to us? >> That's the apology. >> For exactly that reason. For exactly. this. Now you see this is what I mean. This is what your No, but this is what. your brain does, though. >> But what were you thinking when you saw. it? >> I won't lie. I wasn't thinking too. deeply about it because I uh a few. months ago, David Beckham was cutting. his own hair. He cut his own hair. >> and then he was cutting his own hair and. then he messed up. >> I fall for these scams all the time. >> You calm down. [laughter]. >> He just calmed down. >> Wait, what were the scam? >> And David Beckham just like he was like.

and he he like just messed up a little. bit and then he made a video like I. messed up my hair. There we go. Right. But like. >> and then he just shaved it. I don't know. what he did, but he like fixed it. But. he he also did that. So I go, "There's a. good chance that you can mess up your. hair." Callus Alcarez story made like. boring sense to me. You're traveling. Your barber couldn't get to you in the. way you planned. >> Yeah. >> So your brother's like, "Let me handle. this. I've been in that situation where. someone close to you is like, I got you. How hard can it be?". >> Yeah. >> And then they know firsthand how hard it.

can be using your head, right? >> They find out. They find out. >> Yeah. But but that wasn't the thing that. got me. The thing that that made me. think of you cuz I knew you were coming. on the podcast obviously was I went, >> "Why is this such a thing?" They spoke. about it the entire tournament. >> They he kept on like acknowledging it. He had to keep on saying like, "Oh, what. do you think now?" And and and I I found. myself wondering. And I was like, "Huh, what what is this saying about the US. Open and the people who watch the US. Open and the community of the US Open.

that that we don't know that it's. actually saying or not saying or like is. there a sport where the person wouldn't. have had to address it? Would they. ignore it? Would the commentator say. anything about it?" Like what is it. about that echelon? >> You know what I mean? >> I think it has a lot to do with who the. person is and what the environment is, right? Think about where my brain goes. when you put it that way. >> Yeah. >> Is like NFL training camp 2012.

I think 2011 20ou 2011 probably and Tom. Brady shows up for camp and he's got. hair that comes down to here. This is a. thing. Nobody had seen this before. Why. is Tom Brady's hair down to it? What's. he trying to tell us? What's Jazelle. making him do? Because they were still. together at the time. Like it was a real. story for like the first four games of. the season. Yeah. >> What is going on? And if he cuts the.

hair now, is it a Samson and Delila. thing where the season's over? If he. cuts it, >> it was a whole thing. Like there are. these occasions where a person's where. our idea of a person. >> is challenged in some way because the. person is like, you know what, it. >> I'm I'm getting out of this prison. I. want to the thing that you think you. love about me, I'm removing it. >> Damn. >> I'm I'm challenging it in some way. It's. not always hair or like clothes. It's.

like how I how I what roles I take. Um, in the Carlos's case, it was truly an. accident, but he felt compelled to. respond to it because he couldn't even. win a match and go to a press conference. without like the second question being, so what happened? Even though he had. already addressed it, like this is a. thing he's already talking about. But. then you start thinking about who else. got bald and had to like account for the. baldness. It's usually women. It's.

usually women who get a haircut and then. have to apologize for having gotten the. haircut, >> right? Or what is a woman telling us. when she does? I mean, Britney Spears, famous example of a woman who, >> you know, not I mean, I guess you didn't. appreciate how important the hair was to. the getup until there was no hair, >> right? Um, >> did Hyberry go through such as well? There was a point where Halle B cut her. hair off, right? >> When she cut it short, >> right? She it was short and people were.

like great. But she's still Halib Berry. Like it doesn't matter what Halib Berry. does to her hair. Like this just doesn't. matter. Um. Sigourney Weaver in that fourth Aliens. movie, right? Like what is Ripley? What. is what is going or the third Aliens. movie? I want to say is it the third one. or the fourth one? I think the the. Winona Rider one. >> Yeah. Um, when women go. short. >> that way, it's just a scandalous thing.

>> and it's usually received as some. attempt to like get closer to. masculinity. But with Carlos Alcarez, cuz he's. already so boyish, it just it did it neither toughened him. up, it made him seem even younger. somehow. Mhm. >> Um like truly like he had just like like. climbed out of the call of of you know. that that that protective coating that. that animals and people are born. Yeah.

Ex like an alien movie actually. [laughter]. Like and I think that like there was it. just was too much. for people to accept that this had. happened. And you could hear the buzzing. when he took the first when he took the. court that first match. >> Mission accomplished. >> Like you could just hear people being. like, "Oh my god, we're never what was. he trying to say?". >> But the truth is like he had to then. say, "I'm not trying to say anything.

>> This was an accident. >> Hopefully by the end of the tournament, we won't be having this conversation. anymore because I will have won it." And. I was nervous that what I was really the. thing I would have tried to write about. if I had jumped on it the night it had. happened because it was a nightmare. >> Um because I sat on my sofa for about 20. minutes being like should I do it? Should I do it? Should I do it? And then. like what should I do? And the story. would have been seeing what night what.

like if he makes it to round three. >> Yeah. >> Like what round three is like like are. we still talking about the hair? story. >> Um, >> so I sat there and I really thought. about it, but it was so clear. I was. like, is it going to affect his play? Is. it going to like is he going to be in. his head about this? >> Um, and it's just like a weird It's a burden. that men never have to deal with, right? Like, is my appearance going to cost me.

something? >> Oh, damn. Now this is critic at large. This is like a thing women always I mean. in addition to all the other that. women have to take on a tennis court. with them, right? Like you know I hope. my body cooperates. >> I hope I don't hear somebody say some. stupid sexist in the third row. which happens not I mean I don't want to. say not infrequently but I've heard it. like somebody saying something to. Sabalanka about. >> something. Amaly Morzmo, they called her.

a man. Would go to these tennis. tournaments. I mean, they would just. call her a man. That's the thing she had. to hear. >> I mean, maybe her whole career. Serena. Williams, Venus Williams, the things. that they I mean, Sloan Stevens, uh, just like the things you have to put. up with. just because they're an earshot. Um, now here's a man having to like. explain his physical appearance in a way. that I don't recall a male tennis.

player, male athlete really having to. do. Unless you're joking, unless you. unless you're Jokic and or or or Luca. Luca Donic. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Who it's the opposite problem. It's like. he was being dogged for years for being. overweight and then ton of it. >> Lost the weight and now everybody's. like, well, I mean, I don't know how. this is going to go. He lost the weight. >> [laughter]. >> This guy can't win. >> Like got traded, got into the best shape. of his life because he needed to. I.

mean, I don't I don't know what Luka. needed, but like it can't hurt that he's. in better shape. >> Oh, no. No. I mean, that's that's what. LeBron said, right? He said he improved. his longevity by years by dropping I. don't know the exact number, but it was. it was a pretty substantial amount. I. think. >> I stand to be corrected, maybe 20. pounds. >> Yeah, >> maybe. He was just like it just it just. helped him. >> last longer in the game. >> Yeah. I mean, I liked that body because, you know, as a tennis player, that is. Stan Vinka's body. Yeah. Right. Like. Stan Vinka was built just like that. One.

three majors against, you know, you. know, during the big three era, beat all. those guys. Um, did he beat Federer. really in a meaningful way ever? No. But. he beat Rafa and he beat Djokovic um to. win majors. And I don't know. I like. that body. But the idea that he now has. to talk about it, he's going to spend. however many months of the NBA season. when it starts. >> Just talking about this, >> just talking about like, you know, whether or not depending on how the.

Lakers do, >> is it is it the new body? Does he need. to get used to it? >> Is it is it just the wrong body for this. guy playing this? You know, the dumb. that people have to talk about, but. men don't have to deal with it. This is. a woman problem. And so, wait, so what. does it say that men are starting to. have to deal with it then? Well, I don't. know if they are. That's what. >> I don't think they are. I think in this. case, Carlos Alcarass did. Yeah. Okay. But and so. >> he could have got away with not doing. it. >> Oh, you're saying he could have he could. have just carried on playing.

>> Yeah. No one would have said anything. >> But now when you Okay, so now. >> Well, I do think he was being asked. about it. That was the news, right? Like. this is now a thing that he has to It's. the same. This was happening. simultaneous. How about this? >> The same tournament. Coco Golf. She was the other story of the. tournament and that was the story of the. tournament until she lost. Right. They. stopped talking about Alcarez maybe by. the third round. Yeah. She loses in the. fourth round. >> and the story of the tournament is.

she's getting her serve fixed in real. time. She's getting her forehand fixed. in real time. Let us count the double. faults. Let us let us like keep track of. every time Koko Goff double faults or. she fixes her serve. she needed to fix. it because she's she's got the most. double faults on the tour. Um, but she. knows that and she's working on it. Maybe because should she have stayed. home and just worked on her serve until. January? >> I I don't know. That's not that's not my.

business. Mhm. >> But this woman had the had the. bravery, courage, determination to enter. the tournament and see how this, you. know, technique surgery was going in. real time. And the tennis commentators, that's all they would talk about during. her matches. >> That's all the press conferences were. about when she won the matches. And when. she lost, she had to explain that, too. It's just like, it's such a burden. It's.

such a burden having to, and this is not. necessarily because she's a woman, but I. don't recall any man. changing how they play the sport that. they play in real time. and having to like constantly talk about. it. Um, and that that gets in here. And. I was worried with Alcarz that that all. of that talk and self-explanation would. get in his get in his head. But he. played he played that was the best.

tennis I have ever it was not the most. exciting tennis. >> but he wasn't going to keep winning like. this with exciting tennis. >> he just went in he became a bull he he. he reminded me of Nadal in some ways. like the Spanish bull. >> pushing through similar outfit but I. want to go back to what you were saying. about I sat on the couch and I thought. should I write this should I write this. 30 minutes. >> yeah and then you went no I'm not going. to. >> I I want to get into that like how do. you decide what you should write and. what you shouldn't write. Like what was. what was the last piece that you put.

out? >> Oh, >> let's talk about that. >> Well, you know, I'm [laughter] Well, it's funny because I'm making this. podcast now. It's called Cannonball. >> And a lot of my time is being spent like. figuring out, you know, how much time to. spend making our show, >> okay? >> And how much time to spend writing these. pieces. Um, and it's I'm now at a place. where like I'm like, "Oh, I think I've. I've struck a balance where writing I. can write pretty much as often as I used.

to and still make this show.". >> Um, so the to answer your question, the. last thing I think was published that. was a that was a piece that had nothing. to do with the show was about how to. look at art in museums. Like like not. >> how to look at arts. Let's be I want to be extra clear. How. one should position oneself to not be. cut off by some other artlooker, >> right? >> Like how does one stand? How should one. stand? How far away from a painting do I.

need to stand to keep your ass from. cutting in front of me while I'm looking. at it. >> and to make sure I still enjoy the full. >> Yeah. >> experience of of looking at the art. >> having a moment with this piece OF ART. >> WHAT LIKE is it two feet? Is it is it 6. in? >> You know, I mean, >> now you see that that's such a left. field turn for [laughter] me. >> Why did you think that was significant? Art seems like such a like it's such a. niche world. It's such a, you know, highutin world. Why did that What were.

you What did you get to in that piece? >> Uh, >> that wouldn't be obvious when I read the. headline. >> I think it's not the deepest thing I've. ever written. >> No, no, but still. What what what did. you. >> Well, I think it's just that everybody. makes this mistake and nobody really. thinks that it's a problem. It's the. It's the It's the kind of etiquette, you. know. I am probably. 15% Larry David, you know, >> only. >> like, well, no, no, really, because the. 85% is why I'm I'm in this job and not,

you know, [laughter]. >> doing curb enthusiasm. But I think the. degree to which, you know, there's a. Larry David in a lot of us. >> Yeah. >> Um, >> it meets up in these areas in which. decisions are made on our behalf. allegedly to make them easier but make. them worse. I would identify packaging. as this, you know, like I mean famously. there's a curb enthusiasm episode. episode where he buys the the scissors. that open the package, but then he gets.

them in the package and he can't open. the package without [laughter] the. scissors because the scissors to open. the package are in the package to open. packages. >> It's it's it is the deepest realest but. obvious most obvious one of the most. obvious problems we humans face is like. how to get something out of something, how to like remove something from. something else. Um, but another one is. is each other. Like how do we deal with. each other? Like strangers, right? How. do we how do we comport ourselves in. public space? That's a huge Larry David.

question. And for me, I hate it when I. am looking at a painting, a sculpture, whatever whatever m whatever the museum. is pres like asking me to stand here and. look at and somebody's just like boop. boop boop breaking this connection that. I'm having with the with the work. I'm. not trying to take a picture with my. phone. I'm. >> You're doing the thing. >> You're standing there. >> But maybe you're standing for too long.

with I've got places to go to. You've. been here for 5 minutes. I've been. behind you. >> Come on, >> Eugene. Have you ever seen a quue for. and Mona Lisa does not count? Where's. the queue? Oh, Garinica at at the Praau. There's another I've seen a line to look. at. >> How do you know? That's my one thing. that I want to see here. >> is what? >> Ganuka. >> Oh, it's in Spain. >> Are you being serious? >> Yes. >> It's a You got to go to Madrid. >> But what is that painting that Picasso. has at the United Nation building? Oh,

what is that? You should go. You should. go right now though because they're. coming next week. [laughter]. >> UN week is next week. So get over there. now. >> I want to see that. >> What's Oh, there is a Picasso. That is. >> when you go when you go. >> It might be a replica of when you go. there. >> You should stand there. That makes. sense. >> And then I hope Wes cuts in front of. you. >> I would never. >> while you're staring at [laughter] So. what was your what was your conclusion? What did you come to? What's the rule? How far should you stand? How long.

should you stand for? I just don't. >> Were you wrong? Who was wrong? >> I mean, I'm sure there's a world in. which like I need to get over myself. >> No, no, no, no. >> No, no, no. I I'm open. See, the thing. about me is I am open to the possibility. that there's another way. >> Okay, cool. >> Um, which is why I'm not a world leader. >> Um, and I'm just a critic because I know. that there's there's another opinion or. another way of doing things that might. be better than the one I've got. But I. think that the I mean conclusion I think.

you should just. >> it was removed. >> Oh okay. It was. >> ceremoniously sold. >> Oh sent back to the Pra. The Praau took. it back. >> Yeah. Okay. >> Yeah. In 2022 it was ceremoniously. removed. >> The Praau. It comes home to the Praau. I. mean it really should be in northern. Spain with the Bosque people. Honestly, that's where it belongs. It should not. even be in Madrid. But we'll take it. because the Praau is one of the great. museums. More people will probably go to. Madrid than go to wherever they would. put it. I mean, maybe at the bill at the.

Guggenheim Bilbao. >> Do you think all art should be back. where it's from? >> No. >> That's a great question. That's deep. >> Trevor, what do you think? >> You can't throw it back to me. >> All right. I'll think I'm I feel like. it's not art if it's with its people. I. feel like it's art when it's not home. >> When people get to view something that. doesn't belong there and they get to. stay at it longer. It happens when. people are people watching. Someone. looks unfamiliar, they stay longer. So, it becomes it has significance when it's.

not at home. >> That's why I think it was more at home. here because I've been doing my research. about and the one part that I missed was. the fact that I'm 3 years late. >> Oh, yeah. >> I didn't even [laughter]. think piece did not think to inform me. that it's gone. >> Wait. Okay. So, I like this for you. So, you're saying you you don't necessarily. think that art should go back to where. >> anything exotic. I like this. I like. this. women, home design, athletes. The. way you guys speak about Alcarez now is. reminiscent of the Spanish bull like you.

guys were saying with um Nadal. Yes. He's foreign. There's no way anyone. local would have captured you like this. because anything exotic and foreign. >> is always going to be attractive. It's. going to be look at as I look at the. Pagani Zonda for example and I'm like. what a horrible car. Those teardrop. mirrors, those gear knobs, the metal, the clanky clank. I mean, we buy cars. now because they're quiet, and you buy. that thing because it's loud and there's. metal clanking on metal inside with the. gear levers. So, I'm like, we love it. because it's exotic. It's one of a kind.

>> and it's foreign. Anything foreign will. do. Ice cream is the same. It's in lies. It's just not from here. >> Okay. Okay. Wait. So, let me think then. >> Anything foreign. >> So, you want every art to go where it's. not from? >> Yes. >> Well, wait. There is there are some. complications here. Tell me. >> Well, I mean looted art for instance. >> What is looted art? >> The Jews in Austria, Germany, Poland who. had the Nazis.

>> took all the art. Got it. >> It that got take that wound up in. museums. The m the museums claim we. didn't know. >> We didn't know the providence of these. these great artworks, these climps and. you know, etc., etc. And. >> these modiglanis, we didn't know how. they how they got here. >> But that's personally owned. That's. theft to me of 100%. To me, looting is. more like. >> But but I mean just like think about. let's just I mean I'm thinking about. this is like absolutely philosophical. Go. Yeah. Yeah. Go. I want to present.

the maybe the worst case scenario. >> Sure. Go. What's the difference between. looting and pooty? [laughter]. >> That is a very valid question. You're. not wrong. You're not wrong [laughter]. actually. Yes. >> Just don't loot the pooty. Just just don't do that. That's no good. So [laughter]. >> I like the let's let's go into the. philosophical idea here. So. >> art exists somewhere. >> Yes. >> It is held by someone or something.

There's a moment in time. It shifts. It. moves. It whatevers. I think we can. break it down into wait. Let's start by. breaking it down into like a few. categories, right? >> There are things that have been owned by. people directly. >> Yes. >> That was stolen from you during a war, during a raid, during a theft. That's. just theft. I think we can all agree on. that's like theft. Theft looted, >> right? No, that's theft. >> Theft. Okay. I think is a sort is a is a. is a class of theft. >> Yeah. Yeah. But no, but but what I mean. is like by looted is let's say somebody.

goes to um like Egypt is a great example. of this, right? >> I mean like let's go to let's go to. ancient civilizations. >> Yes. Right. >> One of the big conversations people are. having now is should all the Egyptian. art that is everywhere in the world be. given back to Egypt? >> No. Now you're saying no again. Okay. >> I don't Well, okay. No, but there's an asterisk next there next. to the next to my no because. >> I think who who says, right? Does the.

Egyptian government say? >> Do the Egyptian people say, right? Um. does the Egyptian exhibitor class have a. say? like who makes the decision about. where the art that's already like for. instance at the beautifully redesigned. uh ancient civilization sections of the. museum of modern or the the Metropolitan. Museum of Art. >> Um. >> wait what? >> Oh while how long are you guys here?

>> Till Sunday. >> Okay. Eugene. >> Yeah. go to the Metropolitan Museum of. Art and like in the wake of this. conversation and keep it in mind as you. walk through this, you know, very. pristinely renovated. uh portion of the Metropolitan Museum of. Art where all of this great craft work, you know, civilizational craft work, they call them antiques. Antiques, no, we're not doing that. This this is this.

is art that's just old. No one at their. house looked at this and it was old 300. years ago. [laughter]. >> No, it's just in the possession of a. major art collection and therefore blah. blah blah. But antique implies for sale. to me. There's a there's a there's a. >> Okay, there's a negativeation. >> There's a there's a monetary value. associated with antique to me. >> All right. Um, these are these are great. craft pieces. >> Um, that both tell a story of a people, of a time, of a place. Um, they've done.

a really good job of positioning where. in the world and in time these these. pots and tiles and little little tiny. statues are from. Um, you know, shields. and. >> ceramics, everything everything. But the. question is like a like the way we've. been talking is. >> does where should Sumerian art go back. to, >> right? >> Where where should Babylonian art be.

returned to? >> Um you know these great Western African. pieces like what nation what nation. claim to them? Yeah. >> Right. So, in that sense, it's it's. funky to say, well, let let the American. institution have them because I don't. know, they've taken really good care of. them at this point. Yeah. >> Um the provenence of a lot of these. things is really still in question, right? Like we don't know we don't we. neither we ne we know neither the makers.

names. >> or. in some cases how they got. >> in these collections. Mhm. >> Well, we know, sorry, how do I put this? We know. by and large it's a white person who the. white person was who went, you know, the. stories that these places tell are like, you know, this very rich person like to. go off and load up his jeep with. [laughter]. spears and shields and skulls and stuff.

[laughter]. >> And in a moment of absolute generosity, he dumped some of it at the at the steps. of the Metropolitan Museum of Art. Exactly. Smithsonian. Um, so like like. the thing that I love about no matter. where the art winds up is responsible. institutions will tell a story of where. it was and how it got to be where it is. all of it, >> right? And the the sort of the the. mythos the mythos of the pieces becomes. important to the way the the art is.

framed and positioned to want it back. for the sake of of having it. >> Yeah. It kind of only gets you so far with. art. >> Exactly. But I think especially with old. art because there's a story that you're. then I think responsible for telling. I. think art is sometimes meaningless. without it being attached to some. suffering of some sort. >> pieces being stolen. An artist that cut. off his ear because he was frustrated. >> Yeah. I mean, you're not wrong. The Mona. Lisa is the ever going on. >> It was it was nothing really. Not.

nothing. Let's you know, let's calm. down, Trevor. wasn't [laughter] left. >> This is like me. I went to a party once. was like, "The Constitution's a stupid. document." And [laughter]. I had like 17 gay men looking at me like. [laughter]. >> I'm just saying I think that like. following a men anyway. I'm not saying. it I'm not saying it's but I do find it. interesting to exactly what you just. said. >> that the Mona Lisa owes a lot of its.

fame to the fact that it was stolen. >> and that begins its journey of before. that there was no lion. >> there was no famous anything there it. was just one of the paintings but when. the painting got stolen the law of the. painting. >> made it what it is today. >> and so many many art scholars will sort. argue, you know, obviously there's the. main street. They'll go like, "No, no, this is it's the Mona Lisa and it means. this and it means that it means that.". >> And then others will go like, "Actually,

this thing wasn't anything special in. that way. >> until it got stolen." And when it got. stolen, it became this story of like the. greatest art heist and where's this. painting and what is the and why was it. stolen? So, it's interesting that you. say that because sometimes that is, you. know, like to come back to like a critic. at large, it's like it's funny how these. things are shaped in ways that we often. don't look at. >> Mhm. >> Oh, yeah. But even art and value and not. like when you said the you said these. people are generous driving a jeep going. and picking up spears and shields and.

dropping them off at a museum. >> anonymously. >> No, no, no. The first thing I think of. beyond anonymously is I think to myself. what a brilliant way to create value for. your collection. >> Oh yeah. So, if I went somewhere in the. world and I found six pieces of ceramic. art wherever I am from 500 years, a. thousand, 3,000 years ago, what better. way to make that. >> that ceramic collection more valuable. than by giving some of it to a museum? >> Because if I give them three pieces and. I keep the remainder, >> those three pieces can become prominent.

because they're on display and they get. a story told and then someone will be. like, "We still wonder where the other. pieces are." And then you're like, "Ah, look who has the other [laughter] piece. of. >> you can create you can create value. that." And I'm not even saying it in. like a conspiracy way. I just you can. create it's the same way artists big. great artists. >> will have some of the biggest jumps in. their prices and their prestige when. their art is on display in these museums. and in these these galleries. The art.

was already there. >> Yes. >> But because it is now in this space, it's hallowed in a different way. But. this is now raising these other concerns. to me. Like we have not quite settled. the question of like does Egypt get its. ship back? >> No. But here's here's a question. actually. You know what? You know what I. wonder? This is I I like that you both. ask the question through the lens of. people, but I didn't hear either of you. ask the question through the lens of. time. And I think that's actually the. more complicated one to answer, >> right? is like what I mean by this is. if your people, your family, your city,

your country, your whatever you want to. use have agreed or done something in a. different time to you whose time gets to. supersede the other person's time. So. this is what I mean. There was a time. when the Egyptian government welcomed. >> um archaeologists from England. [clears throat] who were funded by some. rich person who just wanted to have like. stuff nobody else had. They paid for all. of these expeditions. They paid for the. like they were the ones who like yeah go.

and do this because we get to benefit. from what you're doing in some way but. that's a time and then you find like. today's government not just of Egypt of. any country might go no we want we want. our stuff but you were given it by. another time and that's where I think it. actually becomes more complicated. >> Yes 100%. Because again like who who. adjudicates. who votes? >> Yes. like what. you know I think with respect to time I. think you learn from it right yeah you.

just. give the looted stuff back to the people. the descendants of the people from whom. it was stolen. >> but I think maybe we're talking about a. statute of limitations. >> like there's a statute of limitations. and anything. let's just let's just I don't there. could actually be one and I don't know. but I've never heard of of of these. collections spoken of in this way, but. like let's just say that the statute of. limitations is like a century,

>> right? >> Yeah. >> There's like beyond a certain point in. 1900. with exceptions for for looting. >> um. and or theft, right? Like just outright. theft. But that's sort of more of a that. is a sort of interpersonal um. legal question whereas we're talking. about kind of international law itself. >> Yeah. I'm talking more like a thing that. didn't even happen between people per. se. >> Right. I think that a statute of.

limitations really does kind of make the. make the questions of claim and and. reappropriation a little easier easier. to adjudicate. And so I would say that. anything that is in these great museums. or even like these small museums, but. they're but they're it's work that that. has no known owner. >> Um you know, no known maker. >> Mhm. >> Just leave it. And when I was.

>> Sorry to disturb you here. >> Yeah. No, no. >> We were talking about houses. Someone. was renovating a a former school. building to become their own personal. house. They weren't antique shopping. They found pieces, decorated the house, very beautiful. And myself and Ryan. said, "If someone buys this house two. years from now, they'll look at all of. this as trash." [laughter]. >> They'll be like, "What?" No. But that. person was like, "I love these things. These things are so beautiful to me.". And here's the thing for me with African. art, West African art, and all those.

places and also Egyptian art. I'm like, there's two distinct differences that I. draw here. >> West African art and that kind of art, East African art as well. How sure are. we that when it was acquired it was art? >> It could have been an arts and crafts. market and a European was walking around. going, "I like this. I like that. I like. this." There was no museums. These were. things that were used by people. >> They bought a plate from a flea market. >> Yes. If you bought if you got yourself. as a sailor all those centuries ago a. Ming dynasty vase. You probably bought. it. >> You don't have to steal it, right? >> Where you going to run to clanky clanky.

clanky with a gigantic ceramic vase? [laughter]. >> So. >> I don't think they were running anyway. >> Exactly. They just they just put it in a. bag and walk away. >> And and Trevor said it quite well with. the Egyptian art. And I think the. Egyptian art even even the battle of. getting the art back does a lot for. Egypt and its popularity than getting. the art I mean than getting the because. that is not art that was stolen there. It was stuff from the valley. Yes. And burial rituals and the mask of. Tuton Kamun which I'm a big fan of. I've.

seen it in a couple of exhibitions. The. copy of it is what made me interested in. the story of Egypt. I think Tuten as a. king, he didn't do much to be lured as a. great leader of Egypt. In fact, he. wasn't the leader long enough for Egypt. >> It was just a the process by which the. mystery of the chariot and the mask and. his and and and and the and the burial. chamber is what attracts me to Egypt. So, if anything, it made me realize that. there's a great King Kufu who's done far. more who built the pyramid of. >> the stories. It's truly the story of the.

lore of the pieces themselves that that. >> sort of create an interest not only in. the pieces because you know it's crazy. that like I I don't know how I became. the person who's now talking about. artifacts in museums because that's the. part of the museum I always skipped. Right. I'm just in love with somebody. right now who where that's one of his. favorite parts of going to the museum. No, [laughter] GG. No, we just met, but. give me a second. Um, just give me a.

second. I can see it. >> Okay, >> I can see it, but [laughter] just hold. on. >> Um, I feel like. now I go and I'm really paying attention. to all the stuff that I'm asking these. questions. I'm I'm much more aware of or I'm much. more. unsure of and questioning what the. difference is between craft and art. Right. There's no doubt there's no doubt.

there's no doubt that these people were. artisans, right? Yes. >> I mean, because it's the question. around, you know, the way that they the. way that. all diasporic black people are sort of. talked about what inheres in us and what. we had the skill, education, knowledge, >> um, prolonged experience to do, >> right? It wasn't that, you know, for. instance, you know, enslaved Africans. just were born knowing what to do with.

soil. >> Exactly. >> They had to This was a cultivated. knowledge that took, you know, centuries. of. >> studying. Yeah. >> Learning by trial. >> Yeah. >> Um to figure out. And so I think that. the the point at which artisanship. yields can yield the craftsmanship, right? Um or the or the places in which. craft and art meet.

>> sort of where they meet. Those are the. places in these in these artifact. collections that. I'm fascinated by because the parts. stand in for a whole. And yeah, you kind. of need one you need these big. institutions in some way. >> to have the capacity to have enough. pieces to tell a story. >> Yeah. >> So I the reason I love these places now. is like oh plates, >> forks, bowls. >> YES.

>> [laughter]. >> BUT BUT I'M LIKE, wait a minute. >> They had Tuesdays. >> They had Thursdays. Like they they ate. with utensils. >> Yes. [laughter]. >> Yes. >> With vessels. And I would love to know. what they look like. They took time to. paint. >> these these ceramic bowls. >> Yeah. You know, like just there will be. times when I'm sitting there looking at. a comb and I'm just like, "Wow, they took the bone.

and just I don't know how you turn a. bone into a comb, but like but they did. it. Somebody did it. Don't go anywhere cuz we got more. [music] what now after this.". Whole Foods Market makes holiday hosting. simple with delicious prepared dishes, must-h have ingredients and gifts that. are just as thoughtful as the food. And. look, I'll be honest with you. Every. holiday season, I tell myself, "This. year, Trevor, this year you're going to. cook something. And every year, I. absolutely do not." Because the holidays.

sneak up on you. One minute you're still. finishing the Halloween candy. And the. next someone's asking you, "So, are you. going to bring a signature dish?". Signature. Guys, I don't even sign my. emails. So, I've developed a system, a. Trevor Holiday system. I go to Whole. Foods Markets. I buy everything and then. I behave like I made it myself. I walk. in with confidence. That's the key. Chest out. Confidence and a nice bowl. You see, if you put something in a bowl, people assume you cooked it. It's. science. And Whole Foods makes it too.

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>> [music]. >> It makes me think of the idea that maybe. the mistake we make sometimes in society. is we search for a concrete answer that. will that'll exist for all time. >> But maybe the answers are always. shifting. >> And if we can if we can get comfortable. with that, if we can get comfortable. with that, >> maybe then we'll be better at answering. the questions because we understand that. the question is not permanent. Trevor, you should you should just run. Just run. >> run away.

>> from here. [laughter]. >> No, because here's here's here's why I. say this. Okay, >> that's a good one. Yeah. >> I love what you just said about stories. and art and the people because. let's start with, you know, a simplistic. idea of where this this this journey. begins. >> Mhm. >> There's a tribe somewhere in Africa. They're making their craft, >> pottery, >> pottery, plates, whatever. They're. making jewelry. You know, the Zulu were. smelting gold long before Europeans. were, etc., etu.

>> Exactly. Exactly. So, they're just doing. their thing. at that point. I would argue a lot of. the stuff that they have is not art. I. would argue. Right. >> You find some of it is, but I think for. the most part, it's just like it's just. a thing that they're making. It's crafts. and and they're enjoying it. Then you you you you develop a world. where there's now global trade and then. obviously pillaging as well, right? The. two coexist at the same time. So some. stuff is traded. So the Europeans bring. hair dye and they bring different spices.

and they ding and then they get traded. mirrors and but whatever. People are. trading. People are trading. So some. things go legitimately, some things go. illegitimately as in as they're taken. Okay? >> They go to museums. They exist in. different places. They're in people's. houses. They you know what I mean? I would argue at the time when Africans. are making this stuff originally, it. doesn't hold that much value even to. African people because they're just. making it and they're making it at the. time. >> I mean, >> no, but now, but now it then leaves.

after a combined period of both trade. and pillaging, other people presented in their museums. telling a story, whatever. But I think when Africa is now in a. place where the narrative about it is. that it can get nothing done. It has. come from nowhere. It means nothing. It. has no intelligence. It has no. advancement. It has no. >> Now all of a sudden. >> that plate, that comb, >> that statue is no longer just a plate, a.

comb or a statue. It's now proof. >> that these people whose stories was. whose stories were stolen actually. happened. It's now it's now like do you. get what I'm saying? So now it becomes. even beyond art. >> I can see it now being you know like in. a. >> civilization. >> Exactly. And in a perfect world I would. almost argue that a New York museum. should go, hey, we have a bunch of your. stuff, >> but right now the stories that are being. told about you are that you've never had.

stuff. >> Mhm. Mhm. >> So, we're actually going to give you. this stuff so that you have an. opportunity to showcase to your people. and to other people who come to you. >> Yeah. >> The fact that you had stuff. >> See, I actually think it's the converse. of what Eugene's saying. >> Because. I think I mean I think both things can. be true. I think that a people needs to. know its story and its and the value of. the story, right? Mh. >> That the artifacts represent a whole.

that kind of dignify or. redignignignignignignignignignignignignignignignignignignignignignignignignignignignignignignignignignignignignignignignignify. a people. >> like redignify. Yeah. >> And I also think it is important to. advertise the dignity. >> to the world. Uh, damn. That's true. >> of these of these other civilization. That's true. >> Because, you know, I just will say as a. as a black American, the the the points of pride just to stay.

in the museum space, right? The idea. that some curator. thought to put a Horus Pippen painting. Well, no. In the Praau, in the Praau in. Madrid, there are no there's very little. African-American art. There's lots of. American art, very little art by. African-Americans. >> There's a Horus Pippen that is just in. the the the. American 20th century art section. Yeah.

It's just sitting there next to ad. Reinhardt and you know, I don't know, Mel Gusowl. [laughter]. Um, and wait, Mel Gusau is a critic at. the New York Times. Forget that. Um, >> he should be there. >> Like he should not be there. [laughter]. Uh, like right next to Joseph Stella, right? And there's like Horus Pippen is. just like a little tiny or not. insignificantly sized. Horus Pippen is. just among these great white artists.

Um, and. it just fills you with pride. Like I. came all the way over here, didn't need. to see any black. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right. >> But here we are. >> just like a great and it's like it is a. story, you know? I don't remember which. one which which Pippen is at the Praau, but it's a or is it a beard? Now I'm. just all over the. >> You can just say names and I'm going to. stay here because I don't know I don't. know the names of any artist. So you can. just say. >> this is actually not Horus Pippen. It's. Rome Bearden. >> You can call it You can say Judith. You. can say [laughter] Arnold. You can I'm.

just going to be like. >> there's a great Romero Bearden that. lives at the Praau. >> and it's just there among all these. great artists and these great white. American artists, but he's just to the. Praau an American artist. >> Yes. >> Right. They're not like the great black. artist, you know, Romero Bearden. He's just like. this guy's the same as everybody else in. this room. They we probably don't we. might know he's Well, I mean at the. museum they know, but like they're not.

that's not the story they're telling. The painting tells the story. >> Um but I think there's a real power in. letting these like I guess the sort of. literary poetic term is like um like. it's a metanym. It's like a piece that. can stand in for the whole and that. piece signifies something to everybody. who bothers to go look in the in the. vatrines and you know like me who.

skipped it for years and years and now. like you know I want to talk about. Indonesian art. >> Let's just talk about it because. [laughter]. I didn't have any feelings 10 minutes. ago but I got a lot of feelings now. because I spent two hours just walking. around looking in these cases. I have a. lot of questions. >> Is that Is that why. >> is that why Trump and his people are so. adamant about. >> Trevor? You know the answer. >> No, no, no. I don't necessarily know the. answer. I never assume that I know the.

answer. >> You you have a sense. >> Yeah, but that doesn't mean I know it. >> But complete your thoughts. Sorry. I. know. >> We we might get we might get further. together. is. >> we we talk about the world of art and. you know these museums they're very. hoayy toy. >> you know it's very like most people. would go like ah who cares and who. doesn't. >> I found. >> I found it particularly interesting. >> that like Trump and his close cohorts. took a special interest in museums.

>> on day one basically. >> I was like this is such a who cares. world is is what people often say. I was like, why does he care about this. so much? Why does he care so much about. what the exhibits are and more. importantly what the exhibits say? >> Mhm. >> I think you have the answer. >> Do do you do you get what I'm saying? No, but but what it made me realize is. as much as people, you know, will roast. Trump and maybe his people for being.

uncultured and and uncouthed and I was. like, what do they realize about art and. its power. >> that a large swath of the population. doesn't? >> You you get what I'm saying? >> Oh, 100%. Like most of the time when. people have conversations about museums. and galleries and people are like who. art is such a niche du but for Trump on. day one to go yo museums we need to. >> he's not saying my kid could do that. He's saying. this is powerful. >> That's what I mean. >> and it needs to be stopped.

>> Right. And you know what's crazy? I. don't know if you remember this. He went. to the Smithsonian's National Museum of. African-American History and Culture. >> like. the month after the inauguration, >> got a tour from Lonnie Bunch, like who's. now the who now is the director of the. entire Smithsonian system. and he left the tour and like gave. remarks and was like, you know,

this is some powerful. I don't think I saw everything, but I'm. going to come back and everybody needs. to see this because this is a very. important American story. This is very. important and you know there's a lot to. be proud of here, but you know there's. still I mean I'm now paraphrasing, but. like there's a lot of work to do and. this museum is is an important part of. of that work.

>> Lonnie, I salute you. This museum is a. real success. >> Wow. I can't wait to get back. >> To your point, the question isn't why is. he doing this now. the the I mean you kind of you were. right Trevor like he's doing it because. he already knows. the power. Now the question the real. question. >> I love the fact that cuz I didn't know. that part of the story. >> Yeah. I only knew. No, I only knew the part. where like Trump very recently said, "Hey,

>> National Museum of African-American. History and Culture, you guys get a you. guys better get your together and. stop being so anti-whites." Right? That's like basically the Yes. >> the mandates. He was like, "You are very. very anti-white." And the way you make. it seem like slavery was just white. people, it's not cool, man. >> Who [laughter] else? >> It's not cool. But now the way you tell the story. [laughter]. But the way you tell the story now. almost feels more like it's weird that.

like what he was like walking through. this museum. >> I have been thinking about this. >> like what was [laughter] like what was. like what was he doing when he was do. you get what I'm saying? I really have. been thinking about this. and I don't know I don't know what you. know there's a there's a kind of person. who just doesn't have the patience to. try to sit in his brain to figure it out. but I want to like I'm not scared to be. in there. >> right like I have a shower I know how it. works. >> I but I think that because I do think.

that to the extent that he is like no. other American. >> he also is quintessentially. deeply. like inexurably. like the apotheiois of America. >> The the what? >> The apotheio like the the sort of. ultimate example. Yeah. >> Damn. Well, quintessential know in some. ways because quintessential implies.

>> that there's something. >> to measure you against. >> well preservable. >> like worth worth like this is the quint. this is like the absolute. >> essential now I could be displacing my. own feelings about my own. word choices I would not use. >> quint quintessence or quintessential ial. to to describe Donald unless we're like. talking about the like the. quintessential cheeseburger eater,

right? >> Wow. Wow. Wow. >> You went from the burger to a. cheeseburger eater. [laughter] What's. wrong with you? >> This guy just said the quintessential. cheeseburger eater. >> Okay, [laughter] I'm going to use that. for somebody. You've just got to walk past somebody. having a meal and be like, "Well, well, well, if it isn't [laughter] the. quintessential cheeseburger eater." Oh. my goodness. >> Who isn't the hamburger by the way? It. can't be the hamburger. [laughter]. >> Oh wow. >> But I think that like he is like he is.

the apotheioas of this country in many. ways, right? Like he is he is the he is. a very good example. There are lots of. like great Americans. Trump is Trump at. the end of the day no matter what you. say is is one of the great Americans in. in like the purest sense of the word. great. Like it is it is enormous. Mh. >> It is vast. >> It has great capacity to contain lots of. >> aspects, things, ideas, >> moments.

>> Wow. >> Um, >> and I think, oh god, like in his mind to. just be in there for a second, >> you know, to listen to him talk about. the things he thinks he deserves, the. Nobel Peace Prize, >> um, >> Mount Rushmore. Mount Rushmore, the. Kennedy Center honor. >> There's a world in which I think. >> depending on like how depending on what. the Smithsonian.

body chooses to do in response to the. threat. >> Mhm. >> I think there's a world in which you. know, forget the presidential library. like one of those museums. becomes his. >> right and it is filled with with with. not just his version of American history. but the history of him. >> right he thinks I mean it's I don't I. can't recall a person who simultaneously.

you know I'm not a historian like I'll. let like the Smithsonian staff like come. at me when I say this um because they. would know better than I would. But. I can't think of a living person of that. level of prominence with that degree of. power who also. simultaneously knows nothing about. [laughter]. history but also has a deep.

understanding that he is making it as he. goes. >> That's fascinating. What a conundrum, right? >> Yeah. And so he. I'm going to say he doesn't like that. history not only because it. defaces white people like like blames. white people. It's that he honestly. can't imagine himself. in that story. He can literally say he.

never owned slaves, right? >> He can say he never enslaved anybody. He. can't say he never rented to a black. person. He can't say he can't say I I I. never He can't say I never didn't. Right. >> He can't say I never denied a home. You. know, there are lots of things he can't. say he didn't do. >> He can't imagine himself. cannot he. can't he doesn't have the empathy. to understand the degree to which or. he's denied himself access.

>> to that. >> to an empathy because he he performed it. once he went on that tour and came back. and was like works for me. >> so I think. you might be a little more generous in. your reading of him than I would be. >> probably I am I no I'll tell you why. I'll tell you why I the thing that. in many ways scares me more with Donald. Trump is. I feel like he is completely shaped.

by the people he is with at any given. time. >> That's true. That is true. That is true. That is true. >> And so I think. >> it feels true. >> His world view in any given moment can. change depending on who is next to him. telling him the story. >> Mhm. >> Now someone would go, "No, but he's been. pretty consistent. He he hasn't really. been he's in fact he's he's shown these. blips of inconsistency that that like. one of them was um. >> do you remember when there was that. bombing in Syria? I got to get more. specific but it was the image of a kid.

who his face was covered in white ash. >> and dust and it was this image of this. young boy in an ambulance. >> and this picture went around the world. and that's when Trump was like he he. launched a strike against Syria. Do you. remember? And people this was his first. term and He was very proudly even then. saying we're never we're not going to. get involved. Like we're not fighting. No fights for us. Nothing for us. Not. getting involved. [laughter] And then he. launched a strike, right? And then they. said to him, "What changed?" And he.

said, "Ivanka showed me a picture of the. little boy. So sad little boy. Nobody. that little boy.". >> And I remember at the time a lot of. people like, "Oh, he doesn't care." And. I was like, "No, no, no. >> He did." And that it's a weird thing, but he did because Ivanka showed him the. picture, >> right? It's the same way he didn't tow. the line. Do you remember when the the. the images were coming out from. Palestine of the of the children. starving and then Netanyahu was like, "No, no, no. These images are fake. This. is not a thing. There's not." Someone. showed it to Trump and then he they.

asked him and he's like he's like, "Those are real. I know star that's. that's real. You can't lie about that. It's terrible. It's terrible." And it it. completely went against his position, quote unquote. And you see it with all. of these things. is like I've seen Trump. I'm sorry you you you've seen these. moments [snorts]. >> when Trump gets surrounded by like let's. say uh the heads of HB.CU or something. >> Oh well the famous Yes. >> Yeah. Trump is in a room with people and. they're telling him something. Trump. will walk out of that room and he'll be. like what has happened to African.

terrible terrible times and we got to. fix it. We got to change it. We got to. fix it. And people go oh but then he. doesn't do it. And I'm like yeah but I. know this sounds crazy. If you took his. administration and just replaced it with. like. >> yes. >> the Obama the Obama people. >> yes. >> we would be we would be in a different. situation. >> But that's what I mean because I found. every time because remember the H.B.CU. presidents visit him. They don't stay.

with him. >> What is the H.B.CU. >> um historically black colleges and. universities. >> Spellelman Howard you know Fisk I mean. many many others black historically. black. There was a famous moment in I. believe 2017. >> Yeah. >> Where all of these was it 2017 where all. of you know the presidents and. chancellors of all these historically. black colleges and universities are. going to the White House for what they. think is just like a like a like a.

visit. >> And at some point they I don't know how. this happens to people but it hap it. apparently happens a lot. [laughter]. They're going for a visit and then all. of a sudden they're walking down a hall. and a door opens and they're in the Oval. Office. >> Yes. >> And these 20some. like very senior, very executive. oriented. negro people find themselves in a in the. Oval Office with Donald Trump. It's who.

is, you know, ready to take a picture. I. don't the meeting did not occur in the. Oval Office. This is a photo opportunity. and there's a very famous photo. >> um. of these people standing around some of. them looking really like. >> Yeah. What just happened? >> Are you what? And Donald Trump. It's an amazing photo because Donald. Trump is standing at the desk.

and just looking so pleased with himself. like I got him. I got him. Look at this. photo. It's amazing. I can dine out on. this photo for for four years. And the. composition of it is great. Like his tie. clears the deck. It's just an amazing. image. >> But to your point, like if those people. were also suddenly, if they also found. out that day, by the way, guys, guess. what? >> You've got new jobs. You're no longer.

going to be heads of these elite. universities, these great black American. institutions. you're working in Trump administration. Good luck. I actually think if those if. the people who found themselves I mean I. guess that's slavery actually. That. actually is exactly how you just. surprise. >> one minute people were walking the dogs. were there the next day important. powerful people [laughter]. the next minute they're working for some. white man. >> forever. But let's say in this instance, >> but let's just say in this instance like.

they signed a document and there was a. paycheck involved and they had what I'm. saying. No, but they sweeten the deal. Whatever. Just let's play Twilight Zone. for one second. >> Mhm. >> Like how different would things have. been according to your theory of his. impressionability? >> Yes. >> Would it have been if you had had, you know, a room full of black men and. women helping him advise the country. instead of Steven Miller? Yes. I'm down. I'm down to find out.

>> But. >> I'm not that down because this guy has. been cast. But. >> this is but this is what I'm trying to. say is like strange about him in that. way is that I don't think that Donald. Trump holds any values beyond Donald. Trump. >> Okay. >> Mhm. >> So. he's said many times, if you like me, I. like you. He says it very simply. >> Doesn't matter what you say about him in. the past. If you're just cool with him. now, he's cool with you. He He like He. brushes it away like quite quickly.

actually because he It's almost like. wrestling to him. He's like, "No, no, let's keep it moving. Let's keep I. understand that plot's done and now we. can move on." Right. >> But but I I love that you you said he is. the Say the word again, >> the apotheiois. of of America. >> because in many ways I would argue. >> like an apotheiois. I would argue that. like he's an apotheiois of of most. people in that. he [snorts] holds the ideas of the. people who are closest to him. >> and he feels that those are the most.

important ideas. >> And so I argue if Mara Lago was. predominantly black, if the golf clubs. that he was in and around were. predominantly Hispanic, if the places. where he was think of the small things. that Trump has revealed, right? He said, "Immigration, I don't want it." But then. he went, "Well, except for of course, like. >> all my all the people in my life who I. know, right?". >> Yeah. No, no, no. But then he said, he. said, "But I'm not not I'm not talking. about sumelier." No, no. He said he. didn't say selers. I'm saying he said he.

called them wine choosers or something. like that. [laughter] I don't know if. you remember that actually. >> Wait, what was this? >> No, no. He said that was like second. term right now. now like he said it oh. man he didn't say sumeas cuz I remember. correcting it in my head but he said. >> wine choosers. >> yeah he said so wine waiters wine. choosers what did he say Ryan it was. wine. >> he's not talking about the the people. who work on the he's not talking about. the actual vineyard he's talking about. the person who comes to you and helps. you select your wine.

>> I know that for a fact. >> the wine picker. >> but you could see it was so interesting. that in his head. >> the good type of immigrant. is the one that he encounters all the. time who brings him his food and his. wine and he's like that immigrant should. stay of course. >> but the one that he sees on Fox News and. on his social media crossing a border. and then killing a family he's like that. one mustn't come in you hear what I'm. saying. >> yeah of course. >> and so like I I the reason I say that he.

is he's a great apotheiois in in that. way is. it's very seldom that a country is run. by somebody. who is swayed as much as the average. citizen of that country is swayed. >> The only difference is they have so much. power. >> Exactly. Like that like that that thing. always gets me with Trump is where I go. like man just you just get him in the. right room in the right you know who. knows this almost all the leaders in the. Middle East. Well, well, >> Saudi Arabia, Qatar, etc., right? >> They know. You get him in the room,

>> the man will come out and all of a. sudden he'll say something slightly. different to what he said coming in. because he's had time with you. >> Mhm. >> But the problem is like, talk about. shaking an etch a sketch. It's so easy. to shake his Etch a sketch. >> Yes. >> Right. His sketch gets shaken every day. >> Yes. >> And somebody somebody's always gotten. the knob, [laughter]. >> so to speak. Um I just But see the problem with that.

I mean what you're saying is I believe. that that is a very cogent way of. thinking about Trump. but then there is. I mean the part that does feel like he. is like a metaphor in in action. >> is that it never amounts to anything. because. he's also so aware. of. his own. If he understands the value of. anything, it's him. Yes, definitely.

>> And so it's never like, you know, I'm for immigration because. >> my homie from Wharton, you know, came up from Chile. No. >> To get an education just like me. >> It's never No one is ever equal to him. He's never he's he's rarely an has an. equal. His equals are. >> you know Putin Kim Kim Jong-un.

>> Um yeah I mean but even or or conversely. you know in the business world right. like who are the people he's never. really aspiring to be Steve Jobs. >> No. >> his I mean he's never said this but I. mean he's much closer to like. >> the obvious people like a like a like a. Gotti or something like that. I mean. those are the and those would be that's. a that's an applicable model to to an. aspect of his governance which is you. know using a kind of threat tactic.

bullying tactic to get people to just. yield um. >> strong arm. >> or give him what he wants. But you know, and then but these never sort of make. their way into policy, right? It's not. like the whispering in the ear for good. things ever results in, you know, more. housing for people. >> But I'm saying it's cuz they're not. around enough, right? And I mean that. honestly. I believe that. I genuinely. think they're just not like you can't do. it in one meeting and you're not going. to be around him more than Yeah. long.

enough. But the people who were around. him long enough and I think that's why. there's so much infighting around him. to get other people away from him. So. Steve Bannon fights with Steven Miller. and then that person fights with that. person because they know. >> once you've got his ear. >> if you can ear yeah you keep his ear. >> you've got his power. But if you if if. it's like that's why the Elon Musk thing. threw everyone off because it's like. Elon's whispering this the other people. are whispering that Elon and then he's. like I like Elon but I hear this about. him but at the same time I also think.

Elon's annoying. >> wasn't there 24 hours a day. >> and he wasn't he was when he had the. most power. >> Right. Right. Right. >> There was a point where there was a. point where he was at Mara Lago 24/7. He. was basically living there. He was. around Trump all the time. >> He had to doge. >> You see? and Doge was work and it meant. he had to actually go to these agencies. when he was out dozing. >> Then now someone's whispering in Trump's. ear, "Yo man, what's up with this Elon. guy doing?". >> Yeah. When he's out doing. But listen, I. don't I don't want to spend all the time. talking about Trump cuz everyone does.

>> He But he is like a fascinating. cultural. >> Oh yeah. He is the figure, right? >> Yes. >> Because. >> he's the defining cultural figure for. now. No, I mean and and so it it is he. is fascinating to talk about even though. there is a kind of danger in. you can't forget the other things that. that that. figureheadness is is is also doing right.

>> um and that's always the the sort of. moral tension among discussants when it. comes to Trump like Like also, yes, keep. in mind though that like there are. people being disappeared. Keep in mind. though that, you know, he's about to. take over another, you know, American. city with a predominantly with a. significant black population. Um, so I don't know, it's tough. like, you. know, I'm a person who loves to try to.

figure out and unpack. cultural figures, including presidents, but you know, it kind of runs a ground. I mean, for instance, you know, I. wouldn't have spent I didn't spend very. much time talking about George W. Bush. um. during his presidency, although there. was because there was so because also. there was so much culture around that. presidency like responding to it in real. time. There's no culture. He is the. culture, >> right? >> Oh, that is true.

>> There's no there is no film making that. that is like responding to this. presidency or how but how could you? People are terrified. >> I think the. >> and when I mean people, I mean like the. money is terrified. I don't mean like. the people. >> Oh yes. But what's interesting is these. things have a way of happening anyway. >> Anyway. Yes. >> Right. So I think that's really. fascinating that like the horror movie. is like the most interesting things. happening at the movies in at least in. this country involve horror right.

involve. you know the un like the darkest grimmst. and not just like you know there's a. there's a crazy person at the door but. like there are mysterious things. happening that don't seem to make a lot. of sense. >> and it's interesting to me that like our. death drive is on the charts, right? Like I am obsessed with the fact that. Die with a Smile, [laughter]. >> this Lady Gaga Bruno Mar song that that.

won't die is called like is still in the. top 10 is as of this as of our. conversation right now, it is number 10. It has been in the top 10 for a year. >> Like when we were kids, songs didn't. last. you like if you got a song to last. in the top 10 for a week. >> Like a Yeah. >> So the idea that you've had a song. that's been in the top 10 for a year. like it probably more than a year at. this point is just mindblowing to me.

And maybe it's not more than a year, but. it's definitely almost a year. And. it's about like, you know, I'd rather like, you know, it's coming. back to me. The melody just hit me. It. just just [laughter] like washed over. me. Um, you're you don't have to deal. with this. I don't know if you're doing. the Grammys this year, but you don't. have to deal with this song cuz it was. last year. >> I thought that was the lyrics of the. song. I [laughter] was like, "No,

>> no. I I think it's just fascinating to. me that that song is about not about. like spending the rest of my life with. you. not about like but you know I'm if. I get like you know another another bit. of time with you I will die with a smile. like it's just a it's a beautiful. sentiment but it's just telling the song. is called die with a smile I'm kind of a. literal-minded person you put it you put. it on a plate like that I'm I'm going to. put my fork in it.

>> don't press [music] anything we've got. more what now after. >> [music]. >> I I wonder then when so when you you see. that that's what I mean about like how. you see these things and how you think. about them going back to what you said. about horror movies. >> I don't think I would think about that. just off the bat. Mhm. >> But we do have to ask ourselves why. certain things are more popular when.

they are and what they're tapping into. when they're tapping into it. Like, you. know, there's there's more obvious ones. that you can see in hindsight, like. movies like Rambo and all of those. things. America was telling itself a. story. >> and it needed to tell itself this story. and it did it successfully, you know, and even in like the cartoons and stuff. like that. Like when I think of like. Popeye, Popeye was telling me a story, >> you know, and and. >> domestic violence. >> Who was Oh, Pluto. Pluto and Olive Oil.

Who? >> Oh, no. No. I thought you saying Papey. I was like Papey Olive. I was like, damn, bro. Which ones did you watch? >> That's right. >> No, no, no, no. But I mean, but I'm. saying the stories and human. trafficking. No, but if you look at the. story going on in Popeye, >> Superman, the stories that Superman was. telling, you know, and it is. interesting. So now when I'm when I'm. thinking through your brain, I go, "Huh, >> it's fascinating to look at when. Superman movies come back and when they. don't and when they do well and when. they don't." And when there's a moment. when America's telling a story about. itself being exceptional and fighting.

the Russians and fighting communism, Superman's the thing. >> And then that story like fades away. Superman fades away. And then the. Superman that becomes popular and comes. out is like a gritty nonsupermany. Superman. >> That's the Trump that's the first Trump. Superman. Yeah. >> That's like the And then now the new now. the the American Superman sort of thing. is like back and the parents are even. more folksy and the you know what I. mean? It's like a it's it's interesting. to think about like. >> what we're experiencing in our world and. then the question.

then the question becomes. is the art imitating life or is life. imitating art? Like, you know, >> I think that that art has a weird way of. corresponding. to moods cuz the people that make this. stuff are basically us, right? >> Like they have the same neurosis or like. not dissimilar neuros. Part of the. problem truly with movies right now is. that I think there aren't enough. geniuses.

who don't who aren't like us to show us. like how we how we could be, right? Like. to like elevate. Well, I think that. talk about like we're talking about we. never really quite got to the bottom of. the name thing, but the there is a way. in which. because Hollywood is no longer making as. many movies as it used to just to stick. with the movies because the movies are. an important talk about a thing that you.

put in a museum to tell a story of a. people and its priorities and who it was. >> like like the Movies are the museum in. action, right? >> Um like a like a video store when we had. them, those were museums. >> 100%. >> of of world civilization. >> was time traveling, >> right? But it was both it was both that. and artifacts of of peoples. >> Yes. >> Um and without them, it's really hard to.

know. it. Well, not really hard because we've. got this whole. I would say quarry of social media, right? Where like you could you could. dig through there to find that one chunk. of marble that like is worth keeping, but there's just a lot of rocks in. there. Um, but the movies are this kind. of like determined. like cultivated art form where even when.

they suck or like don't have aspirations. to greatness still wind up telling you a. story. >> They do. >> It's it's it and it's it feels true. And. I think that we are no longer we are so. addicted now to. whatever it is the superhero gives us in. terms of a feeling of of. [laughter]. I'm giving these movies more credit than. they probably even need. But like there. might be something here about the way. these movies make us feel as a people.

Yeah. Right. Like it's great to watch. these people stop the world from ending. over and over and over and over and over. and over. And what no longer happens is. regular people no longer exist in this. world. Right. >> Like there's a world in which I for as. strange as I found Clark Kent's parents. in this new Superman movie. I was kind. of fascinated by how these two people. raised that. >> Have they play? >> No. Unfortunately. [laughter]. You would have heard about that. You'd.

have heard about that. You know, you. would have heard about it. >> Thought we got Ariel. [laughter]. >> Yeah, you got stuck with Ariel. That's. That's as good as it's going to get. [laughter]. >> Um, but I think that, you know, I grew. up in a time, and this is not a. nostalgia. This is not a this is not. nostalgia that I'm talking about. It's. it's the value of storytelling, which is. not a nostalgic observation, >> but you got a really robust.

menu of stories even when they didn't. explicitly feature people who were. black, were Asian, were gay. >> You got stories that were human enough. >> Amen. >> Yes. >> To trick you into thinking that you were. Molly Ringwald, >> right? Yes. >> Could trick you into thinking you were. Clint Eastwood for as problematic as as. that even is, right? You would be. seduced into identifying with lots and.

lots of different people who did not. wear a cape. >> You're right. It's almost like there's. certain parts of making a movie that. have been removed. The kitchen, >> the dining table, >> the couch and the TV, the remote holding. the remote, um the driveway, the garage, the car have all been removed. And those. were the things, the bicycle lying in. the driveway, you know, and the lawn and. the and the sidewalk. Those things have. been removed to make movies more. efficient. And if you look at old. movies, those things were always there.

>> Always there. >> Yeah. >> Even when they looked fake, right? >> You know, the [laughter] they were still. present. >> I always say the first time I. experienced a beer in in in cinema was. was was through was through cinema. I. mean, when someone just opens a can of. beer after coming back from work and. holding a six-pack, >> he told a story. For the longest time, I. never thought you drank beer cold. >> So when you see commercials AND THE BEER. IS COLD, YOU'RE LIKE, "NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO." After [laughter] a long hard. day's work, you take a six-pack and then.

then I experienced the hangover and I'm. like, "How do you go to work tomorrow. after [laughter]. after drinking six warm beers?". So all all of that has been removed. You're right. a real human being and the. aspirations that a a normal human being. would want to have of having somewhere. to go to and somewhere to depart from. have been removed. They don't exist. anymore. >> Look looking through a window has been. removed. >> Yeah. I mean Well, I mean. >> because you now have these giant like. hangers where all the action takes.

place, right? Like they call them. headquarters, >> you know? I mean they could they're just. giant soundstages that seem like. soundstages in the movies themselves. And so I don't know. I just I'm not. saying I want more farm movies, >> but there was a value to watching Sally. Field try to keep her farm from going. under, which is a kind of movie that. happened every week. Like Jessica Lang, Sally Field, there was a there was a. farm movie a week with some some great. white woman trying to keep the farm.

going. And Danny Glover was on every. single one of them being like, I got. you. I'm going to help. >> You know, it's funny you just say that. You say that now. I do think there's. something powerful. in that imagery and what story it tells. us because let's think of like, you. know, like Danny Glover and that type of. story. Lethal Weapon. >> Oh, here's a great example. >> Do you know what I mean? Lethal Weapon. or Die Hard or any of those types of. movies, as much as these people are. quote unquote professionals,

>> there was also like a very everymanness. to the story. You spend so much time in. Danny Glover's house over once they. realized that was a real relationship. between Mel Gibson and Danny Glover. >> Exactly. >> You got to know his family. >> That's exactly what I mean. That's ex. But what to what you just said now which. I've never considered is you don't have. that with the Avengers. >> No, >> you really don't. >> Do you know what I mean? Their family. only exists as a device to give them an. origin story. Mhm. >> But beyond that, we we don't see like.

why this is their family or who these. people are, who they mean to them or how. they shape them or how they But what it. does more importantly is I I think of. the effect that it has on us in in. questioning or even imagining where. safety comes from. >> You get what I'm saying? >> Absolutely. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Absolutely. >> Think think of how if you if you just. grow up now watching. >> That was a good one. That was good. No, but think about it. If you grew up, if. you grew up watching like Rambo or if. you grew up watching like like that that.

era of movies, >> die hard. You believed that you as an. individual can make an outsiz influence. in the world. I don't care if a band of. terrorists has taken over a building. You can do something about it. >> in your tank top and bare feet. >> You can indeed, but you can do something. about it. And then. >> Avengers comes along and it's like, listen, listen. All you are going to do. is be in your office screaming. [laughter] That's your only role. And. then Superman, you've ruined it for me.

now. Hulk or whoever, DC or going to. destroy your office. >> Yeah. But all you your only role is to. scream and run and then pray. [clears throat] Superman swoops you off. the ground before the thing falls on you. and pray that you know, Storm creates a. little tornado to protect. But that's. your only role. They don't even like. help the superheroes. There's not even. like a thing where it's like if it. wasn't for you people of Earth, this. wouldn't know. >> Like, y'all wouldn't be anything without. us. >> Your job is to have your hot dog cart. that gets blown up [laughter].

and all you do is run away. Your job is. to have your car fall off a bridge and. then that superhero comes and lifts it. and holds the bridge and then you get. out with your family. That's your only. purpose. >> But that's us turning everything over to. these powers. >> But that's what I mean. But I'm saying. like you don't you don't think of the. power of that because and I'm sure some. people watching this be like a come on. man movies. But one of the best analyses. that was like like of sociology. >> was the the Eddie Murphy special when he. talked about Rocky. Do you remember that.

bit? >> Oh yes. >> And he talked about like what it did for. like white working-class men. Yo Rocco. Hey Rockco. He and I think it was very. astute. >> It made a lot of people who were like oh. that's me. >> I'm a quote unquote nobody. But you know. what? >> I'm a somebody. I could come to a draw. in a ring with Leon Spinx. Just let me. Just [laughter] let me. All I got to do. is run up a art museum steps. and beat up a cup like a hanging hanging. cut of beef. >> Beef.

>> Oh, [laughter]. let me let me at Leon Spinx. I will. him up. >> Yeah, but that's powerful. We take for. granted how powerful that is. I mean, just think about what it takes for. people of at least my parents'. generation, but I mean, really, anybody. who grew up as a non-white person in an. a society of oppression, right? You grow. up in the Jim Crow South, you grew up in. a parttheid South Africa, and you get. these stories that are asking you to to.

spend some time with white people who. don't ostensibly have anything to do. with your situation. But it's a story. about somebody trying to overcome. something or somebody trying to somebody. caught in a plot that they need to like. get solved by the end of the you know. hour and 40 minutes. you have suddenly. forgotten about your situation and you. have completely invested your hour and. 40 minutes into this other person's. situation. >> and there's a world in which.

>> some of the images from this experience. whether it's like terrible like the. movie itself is not very good it doesn't. matter. >> doesn't matter yeah. >> because you're you're wrapped up in a. story and maybe by the end you're like. this doesn't really work but what you. did was you watched an avatar are for. your own self in some way go through. something. >> that you couldn't imagine going through. until you do you think I ever thought. for one second that Bruce Willis like I.

never thought once about trying to save. people from a from a hijacked. >> skyscraper. Never once you've tried to. help them from someone blocking them. from viewing art and that's about it. Uh. that is a superheroic act that a regular. person can do every day. >> But the power of the movies, big and small, is like when they're. focused on what regular people are. dealing with and going through, >> you just you learn something about how.

to be in the world just period. >> There were no there were no CEOs in. movies. >> Well, there were. >> there were just regular working guys. >> There was a really But here's another. aspect of this to your point about Die. Hard. There was a whole moment in the. 80s. >> that you probably remember because I. know you saw these movies where like. every week you'd get some young person. who thought they could do a better job. making money than the people who went to. Princeton to do it. >> Like Working Girl, Secret of My Success. Uh these movies came out all the time or.

they were like the descendant. They were. the children of these people. Like. Ferris Spieler's Day Off, the story of a. Yep kid who just decides. >> I'm going to just act like my dad all. day and not even realize I'm acting like. my dad. >> That day was. >> Yeah. >> You hated it. >> I loved it. >> Oh, you loved it. Okay, good. >> We should try recreating it. >> Wait, you and me? >> Yeah. I mean, you can bring a friend or. two and then [laughter]. >> you could have the longest day ever in. Ferris. >> Exactly. >> What would it look like for a bunch of. like old men to do Ferris Peeler? I.

think I I don't know but I feel like. >> Matthew Broadick, right? >> You know. Yeah. Just like you he would. take the I mean he's actually Didn't he. do a Ferris Biller commercial or. something? >> He did. Yeah. >> Um as his old self as his regular. current self. No way. >> Like Yeah, he did it. Um but that's the. other thing, right? like the we have. given the keys to our to our to our to. our civilization over to I'm gonna say. the algorithm. >> to decide, right? Like these executives.

who make our movies don't care about. telling stories that reflect the lives. that we are living currently. >> They care about mergers. They care about. like making sure that I don't actually. know what they care about, but I can. tell you what they don't care about. because we don't get it. Yeah. Right. >> Yeah. >> I'm not saying I want Places in the. Heart every week, but I wouldn't mind it. now. Right. >> I was I was thinking the other day, I. don't know how long it'll be before we. see another movie like Forest Gump in. the cinemas.

>> Oh my god. That's a great for example. >> That's like that's a that's an example. of a film where I go I don't know a. single person who could watch Forest. Gump and not find themselves somewhere. in the story. >> I don't care who you are. That story. touches everyone. It touches everything. It touches race, class, disability. It. touches war. It touches capitalism. It. touches it doesn't matter what it is. >> It goes everywhere. It's about going. everywhere. >> Exactly. And And can that story exist. today? And someone might go, "Oh, but. who cares?" And I'm like, "Yeah, but if.

you look at it on the on the on the. smallest level, >> do you remember what you would do as a. kid when you were done watching a movie? >> You'd watch it again. You'd enact. everything you said.". >> You would enact everything. You would. go, "I'm going outside.". >> Would it was a critic? [laughter]. LIKE A 5-YEAR-OLD CRITIC. >> WHAT WAS THAT? I WANT TO KNOW HOW THAT WORKS. >> WE'RE like a five a 5-year-old critic at. large. All right. This time This time. I'm making new movies that you probably. shouldn't be reenacting. >> Oh, damn. [laughter] YEAH.

>> WHEN I WAS 11, I saw Fatal Attraction. like three [laughter] times in the movie. theater. So, guess what I'm not doing? >> So, you don't want to know how much how. many times you watch Sheron Stone doing. the legacross game. >> So, now [laughter] Yeah. But but what. I'm saying is like what you would do is. you would go out and want to be you. would you would try the kick. >> goon is a great example for you would go. on the adventure you would you would. imagine yourself to your point in that. world or you would imagine that that.

world could happen to you right. >> and so as as we look at the shift of. storytelling. >> you know when you tie all of these. threads together the museum the story. that is telling you of you and the. possibilities that you and your people. may contain. Uh movies is it's exactly. the same thing. It's like yeah names. it's telling you the story of you the. possibilities that you contain. >> and then within that framework you you. now act you now it I just remembered.

something I wanted to ask you and I. wondered how this fits into everything. Why do you think it is that so many. critics at large, you know, whether they. focused on fashion or art or whatever, why do you think so many of them were. black men, what do what do you think it. is? [laughter] No, genuine question. >> No, I'm thinking about this because. there's also Margot Jefferson, who is a, you know, great American critic and and. memoirist and a black woman. Um,

I think it really I mean I'm like we. should name who we're who some of the. people we might be talking about like. Hilton Als um Vincent Cunningham. uh Marggo of course um. some other great person that I'm not. remembering at the moment but basically. I think well I mean [sighs]. I think there's like an innate curiosity. about like you get trained to be.

curious, right? Like I mean, if you have. the luxury of being able to think. broadly about things or like making. these connections because so much of I. mean a lot of my life was really about. like my childhood anyway was my mother. sort of encouraging me. >> to to just. think for myself, right? >> Like if you've got a question, you go. find the answer cuz I actually don't. know it. Mhm. [laughter]. Um, so you'll have to look it up. And. there was no internet, so I would, you.

know, I I became very good at. encyclopedias, for instance, which is. where you got the answers to these. questions if you if you if you had them. Um, I think a lot of the people that. we're talking about are basically the. same age. Um, I also think I mean I'm younger than. those guys, but I also well and Vincent. is is younger than I am, but I think. that you. there is something about. seeing things and wanting to be free.

enough to not just ask a question, but. like to connect them to something else. >> And also, it's like it's a little. dissatisfying because you learn this. I. was a movie critic for a long time. >> Yeah. >> And you realize at least in the in in my. practice. >> that I was spending a lot of time doing. critic at large work anyway, >> right? >> Um because movies are are are a. fascinating art form because they. already incorporate so many other art.

forms to exist, right? >> I mean there is, >> you know, the visual, the audio, the. compositional, right? They have to be. written. Yeah, >> hopefully. I mean, more than typed. You. hope you got a screenplay that was. written and not just typed. >> Um, >> there's the fashion, >> there's the costumes, there are this, there's the soundtrack or the score. There's so many there. I mean, if we're. I mean, architecture, there's there's. just an opportunity if your eye is open.

>> to. making these connections among all these. different disciplines and art forms that. are being assembled and harnessed to. tell, you know, any kind of story. Yeah. >> And these are things that you frequently. as a movie go, you just take for. granted. >> Yeah. But I learned at some point, for. instance, that I usually stay for all. the credit. I worked at a movie theater. for a number of years and I would have. to stand at the back of the theater. while people left and watch the credits. >> Wait, what were you doing at the movie. theater? >> I was an usher. >> Oh, wow.

>> Yeah, I was an usher from like 16 to 19. >> Wait, so what did you do back then as an. usher? Cuz I feel like ushers have. changed over the years in movie. theaters. Like what was your job. >> breaking the ticket and showing them? rip a ticket. Like if it was an older. person or a disabled person, I would. take them to their seat. >> Um you'd wait at the back of the theater. for the first 15 minutes of every show. to make sure the picture was right. >> Mhm. >> Doesn't happen anymore. >> Oh no. I'm like I'm like where were you? You know how many movies are [laughter]. you how many movies are blurry these.

days? And I'm like. >> oh where is I didn't even know there was. someone who's supposed to do something. about that. I go and report and now I. didn't like doing it in the old days. because when something was wrong there. was one projectionist at least in Boston. where I lived for a while who and you. know that person might get in trouble if. something was wrong but then. >> and I you know there are a lot of things. to be happy for James Cameron for one of. them that's not so great is the like. that momentary advent of 3D. >> that was terrible. >> which changed projection right it helped.

change projection I'm going to blame. James Cameron Avatar, but it could have. been some some other thing that. >> I don't I don't blame him. I blame the. people chasing the money behind him cuz. Avatar did it for real for real. >> Oh, it did do it for real. >> And then everyone else was just like, "It's 3D." And it's like, "No, it's not. Two pictures, man.". >> But Trevor, they would leave the lenses. on. They would leave the 3D what it was. They would leave the some theaters would. leave the 3D projector. >> on for 2D movies or or the lens that you.

needed to flip off. >> for a 2D movie. So, I mean, there's a. lot of things about the movie going. experience that suck, but like my job. back in the day with a film print was. just to make sure the picture was. straight, the sound was good, there were. no issues with the print. Um, and then I. clean the bathroom. A lot of bathroom. cleaning. Spent a lot of time cleaning. the bathroom. What's the worst bathroom. to clean? Men or women? >> Great question. Women easily. >> That's the worst. >> OH MY GOD. >> Ellen Degenerous. One of Ellen.

DeGeneres's greatest bits. >> Oh, I thought, you know, I didn't know. where this story was going. >> I thought you were going to say Ellen. Degenerous uses female bathrooms. I WAS. LIKE, [laughter] HOW DARE YOU? >> I thought he was going to say Ellen. Degenerous took a dump. So, like I. didn't know where that was going. I. didn't know where that joke was, where. that story was going. Or or he went like [laughter] he went. like women bathrooms are the worst. Ellen Degenerous. [laughter]. >> No, Ellen Degenerous never came to the. rich of the Boris where I worked for a.

bunch of years. But Ellen DeGeneres. informed I was doing this bathroom work. >> Yeah. >> Before I saw Ellen Degenerous's great. bit about her own questions about what. is going on in the ladies room. And she. at some point is like, "I went into the. lady's room and I just thought that a. bomb had gone off in here except the. dirtiest bomb of all time." This is like. from like the late8s. >> I thought it was cleaner.

>> Oh no. And she's like I when I go in. there and I see what's on the walls and. on the floor, I'm like, "What are these. ladies doing?" like and then she she's. like they go do they go into the what. are they using the the the disabled bars. in the in the in the handic in the. disabled stall to like to not sit on the. toilet because that's what I did and I'm. swinging around doing a doing a doing a. a high bar routine in the ladies room. and then she I think the punchline is. like so I got down and I looked around.

what I did and I was like oh this. explains it. >> this is why they're in such bad shape. all the women going in there are doing. gymnastics Yo, >> any place with a queue and high foot. traffic can never be clean. >> Also, >> I just I don't know why. Okay, cuz I. assumed you know why? Because whenever. I'm in a man's bathroom, it's always. there's always pee on the floor. It's. always sticky for some random reason. And. >> yeah, no random reason. [laughter]. >> That that reason is not random. Don't go. spreading lies on this podcast.

[laughter] There's no random reason why. the floors are stinky. So, so I would. always go like, "This is disgusting. [laughter]. Surely the other side can't be worse. because I went. [snorts] people aren't just like peeing. on the floor the way the men are." Now. you've just blown my mind cuz I've never. I've never I've never worked in cleaning. men's and women's toilets. So, >> yeah. The women didn't even want to. clean the women's room. Like I mean. that's how I mean it was you know I. worked with with I won't I mean.

uh I'm Lo Loen. was one of the women who worked she just. loaden would never clean. >> She would refuse. >> She wouldn't [clears throat] do it. She's also was too cool. That was one of. the coolest people I've ever worked. with. >> Joe Novak Fritz. Uh we wound up cleaning. the the and and Greg. Oh man, I loved. Greg. Anyway, yeah, it's like why do you. even ask a question like that? Because. like what made you wanted to know. >> because whenever I talk about it, I.

really that's how I remember it was I. can't believe the women's room. >> No, that's what I wanted to know. >> Yeah. So, but my question is where does. this moral high horse come from when you. live with a woman and should always. criticize our bathroom etiquette when. their public stalls look like that? That's what I maybe that's also another. thing cuz like that would be like a. thing that maybe even my mom would say. just yeah would be like oh it's like a. men's toilet in here at school they used. to say something similar as well I I. don't know I mean now I'm hearing it. direct me this was like a big. >> I'll never be conspiracy theory.

>> put the seat down. >> this is wild but I interrupted you sorry. let's let's go back so we we're in the. movies you're in this world you are your. job is to make sure that everything. works. >> rewinding to that sorry I took us off. everybody No, that's fine. I mean, I now. I'm curious about the mail that you guys. are gonna get [laughter] about. >> about pristine about pristine women's. rooms, but I will tell you firsthand, I. spent three years. >> cleaning them, >> but cleaning two sets of bathrooms and.

one one I did not dread cleaning. >> Damn. Well, this is good to know. >> Mhm. So going back to what you're. saying, I I wonder if the gist of it is. is it is it that it's easier to look in. when you are not in? Is that what it is? Is is there a is there a correlation. between being able to critique a society. and look at it through an objective lens. when you are not like held within the. the the the deepest vein of that of that.

society? Is that what it is? Or or is it. just how your mind works? like what do. you what do you think informs how you're. able to be a great critic at large? >> It's probably both. >> I mean it, you know, I'm going to answer. this, but I'm also like in sitting here. talking to you and being familiar with. the work that that that goes on. >> work. >> like especially work. >> I mean it is where's Have you seen us. though? [laughter] Where have you BEEN. FOR THE LAST HOUR AND A HALF? WORK.

>> You've been working like this. This is a. this is a mind. This is an act of mine. Um, but I mean I think I mean one of the. things that you know one of the great. thrills of of of my cultural diet in my. lifetime was was like spending time with. you during the pandemic. >> Oh damn. Thank you. >> Right. I mean you were doing the work. that I do just in this highly. concentrated I would say almost like.

vertigenously. difficult form right. >> vertigenously. >> just you know like oh. >> man we need to like. >> yo. >> doesn't matter you can cut it no I'm not. cutting [laughter] anything we just need. a. >> but anyway the point is like. >> this man's vocabulary. >> I think there's a world in which some of. my interest yes vertigenous vertigenous. like vertigo, >> you know, like. >> No, no, no. I'm with you. Like I'll.

Yeah, I'll I'll catch up. >> All right. >> I learned words. Me. [laughter]. >> Be a long night for me. >> Oh, no. Look out. Fasten your seat belo. [laughter]. >> He's He's already there. >> Wow. It usually takes me a drink. [laughter]. to start working for NASA. Just [laughter]. I mean just saying I I did we did just. we well whatever the [laughter].

>> my point. >> is that I think I'm hearing what you say. and I think that there is. there is something about wanting to. understand how the world works. >> Yeah. And there's an understanding you. develop an understanding especially as a. young person that like art art is a. version of how the world works. >> Yes. >> Um it is a world unto itself that is. also in in one way or another reflecting. the world you live in even if like the.

properties within that world aren't. onetoone. yours. I mean, I think that one of the. most amazing things about the way that I. grew up, um, and Nicole Hannah Jones and. I talk about this a lot, um, just in. terms of with a sense of wonder, which. is, you know, we grew up like millions. of people grew up at a time, m black. people grew up at a time where, you know, if you go back and watch the. the movies of the 1970s, 80s, and 90s,

like there were very few flattering. depictions of black people from. Hollywood at least. And it never mattered, >> right? It never mattered because a I. mean I knew what my family was like. M. >> I knew I was I was a part of a family. that had no bearing like you know there. would be these ways in which like people. would seem to overlap with members of my. family like this actress Anna Maria. Horford when she would show up like as.

Harrison Ford's secretary and presumed. innocent. I knew that movie wasn't about. her and I wasn't silly enough to think. it should have been. >> But there was also a part of me that was. like why shouldn't it be? what's she. doing while this woman's getting. murdered over here in the office? Like I. I just wondered about things like that. But I also was just fascinated by. how. these made things like had meaning. They.

meant something like the stories. amounted to something. the the prolonged. exposure to individual stars or. individual story tropes, they wound up. meaning something like what what is a. Glen Close performance when you've. watched 10 Glen Close movies in, you. know, seven years? Um, you know, who is. Spike Lee? Who is this guy Spike Lee. once you've seen, you know, four or five.

Spike Lee movies? Um, what are. soundtracks doing? Like, so you're. telling me there's a world in which. there's music playing in this movie and. the people in the movie can't HEAR IT? WHOA. BUT I CAN HEAR IT. And this music. has nothing to do with the with anything. happening in the world of the movie, but. well, in the world of the characters, but in the world of the movie, this. soundtrack is like like a conveyor belt. of action. >> and of emotion, >> right? and a feeling like that is I just.

I became obsessed with how soundtracks. worked in in in movies. Now there are no. soundtracks. >> Yeah. >> Right. There's a music supervisor who. makes sure like there's vintage music in. a lot of these movies or cool cool. songs. >> But at one point in time you were. getting original music. Some of the. greatest pop songs ever written were. written for movies. >> My heart will go. name. Yeah. >> Yeah. That is like that is an elite. example, right? Highway to the.

danger zone, right? Like like a move. like a song that. >> it's so written and could only exist for. Top Gun. [laughter]. Like you couldn't put that you just you. couldn't put that out as a song without. knowing there was a there was a fighter. jet attached to it. What what is Kenny. talking about? [laughter] What is he. talking? Highway to the danger zone. But. you know because you would have known. Yes, >> that Tom Cru well you would have known.

that Tom Gome was attached to it. Tom. Cruz was not quite yet. >> was not the big star that he. >> the Tom Cruz he became a star in part. because of that movie but. >> I don't know I just really wanted to. figure out what what the meaning of. things were like I can tell you like. reading all of those people as younger. versions of themselves that they also. had these questions. >> and frequently the thing that made. someone like Margot Jefferson great was. that she.

really wanted to understand, for instance, because she wrote about. music for a long time, why all these white artists sounded. black, >> right? Like she just was hearing black. music in these white artists sounds and. wanted to try to taxonomize. and kind of theorize a little bit about. what she was hearing. And you know, she. wrote one of the greatest pieces of. criticism I've ever read um about like.

mostly built around Elvis. um but also just around like 1970s. rock and roll and it its relationship to. 1950s rock and roll in the US. >> Um do you guys like are there like South. African critics that you that you like a. lot? Well, there was one that Trevor. brought up the other day who. >> which we grew up watching on television. every Sunday. >> Oh, Barry Runger. >> Yeah, that.

>> Yeah, he was legendary. >> Okay, I'm into that. >> But he was a film critic, but he was. >> every Sunday. >> Barry Runger. Yeah. >> Yeah. Passed away many many years ago. But like he was the first person I think. most of us encountered where he would he. wouldn't tell you like the movie was. cool or fun or he didn't he didn't use. any of those words or ideas. He he. critiqued what it was trying to do and. what it meant and how it was but in a. way where like I remember sitting in. front of the TV as a 10-year-old and I.

felt like I needed like a monle and a. glass [laughter] of tea. No, because of. how sophisticated he made me feel. >> Oh, interesting. >> You know what I mean? Like I would I. would and then when I would go to the. cinema, I would stand there with my. friends and I'd be like, "Ah, yes. I've. heard that it relies too heavily on. tropes of I [laughter] was like, I don't. know what any of this means." But you. know what it made me do is like at least. around that time it it gave me the first. >> invitation. >> to think beyond what was presented. >> and also include how it was presented.

and what that meant. Yes. >> And he like I think he did that in a big. way where it was like oh he made you. realized when things were derivative. He. made you consider why it wasn't you know. cuz you'd be like it's a dope action. movie. And then by the end of his review. and his critique, you'd go, >> "Huh, >> this is not it's not really a great. story or it's not a, you know, and I. that's I'll say that's like one of those. where we he had an outsized influence, I. think, in in a lot of South African's. lives.". >> Absolutely. Yeah.

>> Yeah. I'd never heard of him. I'm I'm. definitely I will spend some time. watching some YouTube. >> some YouTube. >> I wonder if they'll be on his bedazzled. waste coat. And. >> he used to he used to have an interest. >> Not one of those critics. There's always. forgot how he dressed. >> He used to have a waist coat and like a. white long shirt and. >> I actually forgot how he dressed. >> It was sequined. >> Yeah. Some Yeah. He was flamboyant. >> Huh. Fascinating. You don't remember. that part? >> No. No. No. >> So, the important part got through. though, >> huh?

>> Yes. >> I mean, I guess. Yeah. But I'm like. >> Never got information about a movie. I. was like, I'm never wearing a waist coat. in my [laughter] life ever. >> But a jacket with sequins. >> Count me in. >> Oh man. Yo, this this has been great, man. >> Thanks for having me. >> No, man. Like, cuz genuinely I I hope I. hope people get what what what I get. from you. And it's like I don't know. I. here's what it is. I think as we've come. to live in a world that gives us more. faster. It means we have less time to.

digest, >> right? >> Mhm. >> So, just like food, you're just getting. it shoveled at you, shoveled at you, shoveled, but now it's in like tiny. little bites and it's like it just moves. on and it's gone. Yeah. >> And when you're in that world, you don't. necessarily notice the story of the meal. that you're getting. >> You don't see the trend, you don't. really understand. what just happened or what you might be. part of or what story you're hearing. And what I what I really love about your. work is it just reminds us and invites. us to do that in like a a really cool.

way. Like I I think a lot of people love. movies, but not many people think about. what a movie does to them and how it. makes them feel, how it can make a. country see itself or not, how it can. make a people see itself. So like, thank. you, man. I I appreciate your work, your. vibe coming and hanging with us. >> Thank you. >> Yeah, man. I'm going to go. >> It was an honor. I appreciate you guys a. lot. >> You got to come back again. >> Truly appreciate you. >> I will come back. >> You got to come. What's the What's the. best movie you've seen uh this year? >> This year? >> Yeah. I know a lot of them were. terrible. Was the best one you saw this. year? >> From this year?

>> Yeah. >> Okay. >> I mean, it's tricky. You know, I saw. this. There's a few There's a few movies. I've seen that I liked. Um, I just Well, I liked Warriors a lot. Warriors. Sorry. Weapons. >> Weapons. Weapons. >> I liked Weapons a lot. I don't know why. I keep calling it Warriors. uh weapons, you know, has all the when you were. talking about the the granularity, the. sort of like like native granularity. that has gone out of the movies.

>> Yes. >> Just like you know the things that give. a movie or any work of art, be it a. novel or a painting, a sense of place, >> texture as well. >> Mhm. >> There's a Have you seen this movie? >> No, don't spoil anything. >> I won't spoil anything, >> but it's I know it's from the same. director and I think writer of. Barbarian. >> Yes. Yes. and and some of the imagery. that you're sort of even alluding to is. similar like you felt like you were. somewhere with people who live a certain. life and it it felt very. >> like us. This movie has a sense of place.

even though it doesn't tell you exactly. where it is. I see some Pennsylvania. license plates. Um, and in the distance. you can see a city that is not. Philadelphia, but you you know you're. somewhere. like small towny, >> but you also there's a there's a really. important shot in the movie. It doesn't. spoil anything, but I think about it a. lot in terms of the way some production. person and perhaps even the screenplay. itself. wanted us to notice something without.

drawing our attention to it explicitly. There might be a close-up of what I'm. about to tell you, but I noticed it. before the camera told me to, which is a. bunch of newspapers piled up in a. driveway, >> like newspaper delivered. And they just. these plastic bags of newspaper just. littering a driveway in a in the. background of of a different shot of of.

a shot that had. >> you're not necess you're free to notice. whatever you want because it's a. painterly image, right? This the image. is a long shot. It's framed in such a. way that you're your eye is free to go. wherever it wants. It's a very. democratic. >> piece of film making this movie in a lot. of ways in terms of what it's allowing. you to keep your eye on. Um, but I. noticed that and I was like, I don't really care what else happens in. this movie because this the person who. made it cares about. >> the things I care about us,

>> right? He thought about like. >> what a what a regular human might. be like living dayto-day. >> Um, >> so I don't know. I mean, that's a great. but also, sorry, I got I tried to. connect that to what we were talking. about earlier. The movie is just. suspenseful. It's just a very great work. of suspense. Okay. I had it hit my dread. my dread area. >> I rarely experience dread the way. >> Oh wow. >> Um I did in this movie. Um.

>> you might hate the ending. Um I it the. ending changed nothing for me. I like. the ending just as much as I liked. everything else. Um Sinners, you know, Sinners is not Sinners. It's funny. I I. was watching Weapons and was like, I. think this is a better made movie than. Sinners. >> cuz it almost really is, but Weapons. doesn't have what Sinners has, which is. like an active mind that is really.

determined. to make you wonder. >> what is really going on here. Yeah. >> Right. like your imag your imagination. as a movie goer is free to I mean I'm. I'm still not sure about sinners in. terms of like what is going on. >> 100%. >> Um whereas weapons it's it's pretty. there's some ambiguities but. >> it ties it up. >> Its ambiguities aren't really its. selling point. It's the crispness of its. film making and it's it's real attention.

to how to build and generate and exploit. suspense. Um, but Sinners is just like, god damn it, >> it's a great film. >> Like this the first hour of that movie. alone, I could have watched two of that. >> Yeah, that's just like a film film. >> Yeah. And this is like and it's just a. very satisfying. work of ideas. >> Um, and sometimes a work of ideas is. almost better than a perfectly made. movie. >> Um, so I mean those are the two. And.

then there's this movie that's gonna. come out in the fall um by Kelly. Reichart called Mastermind that's about. um that's got um. oh my god, what's that guy's name? I'm. not used to saying it. Uh he's the Irish. guy who is in Challengers who is not. Mike Feist. Um. >> Irish guy in Challenger. >> Yeah. Anyway, that guy whose name will. occur to me while I'm saying this to. you, um, he tries to commit, you're not. going to believe this, an art heist.

full circle moment. And the question is, um, is he going to pull it off? Um, and. I won't ruin it for you, but this movie. has It's just you It's thrilling because. you're watching a director whose movies. you've been I've been watching for. >> Yeah. >> years been yearning for. >> and she. she just really she's an art house. She's an art director. She doesn't care.

I don't think I don't know if she cares. where her movies get played, but like. she just. all she's into texture. She's into like. atmosphere. Plot is not really her. thing. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> This woman was like, "You know what? I. want to I want to tell a story. Beginning, middle, end, suspense, surprise." This movie has the the ending. of the year. >> Oh, wow. >> It's got big words. >> Um, it's called Mastermind. It is It is.

very, very good with that Irish actor. that you're gonna see all over. What is. it? Josh O' Conor. Is that it? It's Josh. O' Conor. >> We we we believe in no Googling in our. friendship. [laughter]. >> Eugene, Eugene and I have a pack. Whoever can say the answer the most. convincing, we'll go with it. >> We go with that. >> I've been convinced many times this. afternoon. >> Yeah, we're anti- [laughter] Google. >> Yeah, this was great, man. Thank you for. joining us. >> Thanks for having me. Thanks for having. me. >> And good luck in the in the You have the. podcast. >> Yes. Cannonball is happening every.

[music] week for the foreseeable future. forever. Forever and ever and ever. >> Forever and ever. Um, and you know, I'm. gonna I'm gonna go write tomorrow. [laughter]. Thanks for having me. This is dope. Thank you. >> Thank you. This episode is presented by Whole Foods. Market. Whole Foods Markets has. everything you need for the holidays. Whether you're a guest or hosting the. big dinner, Whole Foods Market has. convenience and costfriendly finds.

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