Tripping Past Your Ego with Michael Pollan | What Now? with Trevor Noah Podcast

If you're a rat in a lab and you use LSD. The experience that you have would probably be so all encompassing. that you cannot fathom using it against you in a lab. You and I imagine you, there are these giant monkeys making you walk through mazes and. And now you take LSD for the first time. Like, what does amaze me? Like, where am I going? Why do I like cheese so much? What is it that drives me? And now you seeing the universe for the first time? You're thinking about cats in a completely different way.

If I was if I was a rat in a lab, I'd be like, I don't know, I need to, I need to chill on this. I need to, I just need to think about my life a little bit more. And this is what now. with Trevor Noah. Do you think. do you think this could be the first topic where we don't agree at all? Yes.

Which is made me, like, afraid, Yeah. Because normally there's some overlap. Or I can even see where you're coming from. Oh, you you don't even think you'll be okay. But wait, wait, wait. So help me understand this. Yeah. We say we're going to have a top. We're going to have a conversation. We're going to we're going to be speaking to Michael Pollan. He has single handedly changed. the perception. of, of I mean, like millions and millions of people when it comes to psychedelics.

And it's it's not only psychedelics, you know, he wrote The Omnivore's Dilemma, this is your mind on plants, how to change your mind. And he's written a beautiful account of how. we see the world of what we take. One of my favorite books of his just even talks about. how we see coffee versus how we see something like taking, you know, mushrooms or marijuana and he goes, you know, coffee. It's just it's a drug that has suited the establishment.

And so that's why it's allowed to to stay around. So he's explored everything. But it's interesting how now and we'll talk to him a little bit about it. is it's like now he has become the de facto. go to guy on mushrooms and psychedelics and you know, and yes, it's funny you say he's the guru, but he's not even trying to present himself as a guru. He's like, no, it's not because I guess I'm a journalist. I'm just a guy that's like, oh, yo, everyone's like, you are the guru. Where do I score myself some dope shrooms?

Yeah, but it's funny you. I've never seen you recoil like this. I know, I know, and I've been thinking about it. Even I may have prayed about it. Oh, wow. Yeah, I was just like. I don't want people at home to think like, I'm like this. Lock them up. Conservatives about people. Okay. Do recreational drugs. Okay. But I may be a little bit okay. No, I think it just it brings up some stuff for me. Is, is this is this because of your upbringing? Because for me, like, I think about growing up. and my perception of drugs.

So I didn't touch weed my whole life. Okay. So I'll even take it before it even like drugs. Drugs? my mom doesn't drink, my mom doesn't smoke, my dad doesn't drink, my dad doesn't smoke. All right. So I grew up in a home where that wasn't a thing. My grandmother, etc.. And my mom said to me when I was. 13, 12, 13, maybe even younger, she came to my room. and she had cigarets and she had, beer.

And she said to me, do you want. And and I was like, oh, this is a trap. Obviously this is a trap. And I was I was almost disappointed. And I was like, come on, lady. Oh, what trap like that? You're going to come into my room and offer me cigarets. And she was like, do you want, do you want to try them? And I was like, no, because these are bad things and we should. And then she said to me, listen, I hear. you're going to you're going to encounter alcohol, you going to encounter cigarets and things. So if you're going to use it, I would rather know that you use it.

and then you use it at home. Yeah. And then I don't worry that now you're out in the world using it, you know, hiding it from me and then getting into situations. where you can't share that you're using reduction. Exactly. Some things. Which is why I let my mom and my mom is like, super religious and super strict and super very progressive. Yeah. And so then she didn't even know how to, like, light a cigaret. So it's good we have to go to an uncle of mine. And then he was like, Trevor, what's up? And she said he wants to try cigarets.

And the guy was like, okay, you want to smoke? And he gave gave us the cigarets. And I puffed with him and I was like, this is trash. This is. So I was like, how is the taste in your mouth? You know what I mean? It it tastes like someone's like eating everything disgusting. and then forcing it into your, your oral cavity. And then the alcohol beer just tastes like. like old water that has, you know, dribbled down a sewer in a bad breath. I don't like I don't like it. So I didn't like any of that. And then drugs was almost in the same category for me.

Instead of that initial experience. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. In fact, drugs the way I grew up was you are a loser. You are going to end your life. That's how I knew that. That hasn't changed. Now that was just what you, that's that's how I do drugs. That's all I was told. These are the things that will happen when you take drugs. So I didn't I didn't touch weed. I smoked weed for the first time when I was 21. Okay? That's how like anti-drug. I used to judge people and I would look at them and I would say to them, it is a pity that you've chosen to do this with your life. I used to say that to my cousin so I, I can see where you might come from.

Okay. Yeah, I think it's all of those things and a bit more. All right. But yeah, I just. Are you open to a conversation about. I'm open to a conversation. And I think the thing that bothers me about this, I'm I'm sad. I'm not nuanced because I pride myself. I'm being like gray area nuance. Both side is in movement. Yeah. And on this I'm like, no no no no no no no. Okay. So yeah, the African mum has finally arrived.

The mum has just emerged and is just here. But and the more I seem to read, the deeper I go into now. That's why I'm really curious about to her station. Oh, that's that's an interesting one, Michael. well, welcome to the podcast. But like, let me ask you this. Do you, do you think or do you find. that people become more open to the idea of exploring. even the idea of psychedelics when they read?

Or do you find that people become more closed off? I find when people, read, they do become more open. There are a couple things that make people more open. And by the way, Christiana, I'm not going to advocate you do anything. It's I'm going to advocate for that. That's what I'm going to advocate. It's perfectly okay not to do these drugs. When I started talking about this, right when my book came out. and I was talking to various groups of people, and I would notice.

when I spoke in positive terms about psychedelics, I found that unless I started talking about risk right at the beginning, there was always a person or two in the room before I said anything, more about it. This person would not open her ears. So I learned in my conversations where I was trying to get a hearing. for what have turned out to be some therapeutically really important,

substances. And the key was, let's talk about risk right at the beginning. Can you get addicted to substances? Can you overdose on these substances? Because I, I came very late. My I didn't use a psychedelic till I was in my late 50s. I was somebody who, you know, with a family who, and lots of responsibilities. And, and I did a lot of investigation. Well, how dangerous are these things? And I found that on the classical psychedelics. And it's important to define what we're talking about.

LSD, mushrooms or psilocybin DMT, but not ketamine and not, MDMA. These are not technically psychedelics. There is no recorded lethal dose. that's quite remarkable because you have drugs in your medicine cabinet. if you have Tylenol that is lethal at about 17 pills. But but before, you know, before we get into that, before we get into that, Michael, I love I love the idea of speaking about risk first.

and I've actually seen you do this in, in more than one setting. My favorite encounter with with Michael and what watching this in real life. was, we were at an event where it was myself, Michael, and then Oprah Winfrey, Gayle King and Ava DuVernay. And we all this is like. a, like a with motley crew of people who found themselves around a table. And I don't know if it was Oprah or Ava.

who starts off and says, wait, you you're the mushroom guy, you know? And and I'm like, oh yeah, mushrooms. It's amazing. This whole thing, do you know? And I'll never forget, like, the more I was. speaking, I thought I was convincing people. Oprah's face got more and more concerned. Gayle looked at me with more and more compassion. You know how Gayle is like. Gayle looked at me like, oh, Trevor, do we need to call somebody? And even look like the cops were about to, like, swarm in? And it was interesting to watch because when Michael started.

speaking, the first thing you spoke about was risk. The first thing you talked about was, hey, you cannot guarantee any outcome. You've got to be worried about your physical, you know, the physical aspect you've got. And I watched them slowly turn their bodies. from the outset of a conversation back to the inside of the conversation. And so maybe, maybe we can talk a little bit about that aspect. So. So what? So what are the risks then like if, if you cannot if you cannot overdose, what are like for somebody like Christiana who's going like this.

You guys are putting yourself at so much risk. What what are the actual risks. Well if you use if you put LSD in one of those classic, setups with a rat. given two levers to press, you know, and it administers a drug to its veins. with, amphetamines, cocaine, they will press that lever until they're addicted and they die. If you put LSD in that set up, they'll try it once and never again. Oh, wow. That doesn't sound like an endorsement. No. It's not. I mean,

like, no, thanks. Well, I mean, imagine being a rat and trying to interpret what's going on. We don't know what kind of experience they have. There's actually a study underway to try to figure out if rats and mice. have, the sort of mental, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. All we know now is they head twitch when they take LSD, and that's not very useful for research. So those are so, so no risk of addiction. Yeah. no risk of overdose. The risks are of a psychotic break.

I mean, there are people who have a psychotic experience, but, sometimes it's just. It looks like a psychotic experience, and it's just a panic attack. there's a wonderful story that, Doctor Andrew Wild tells about working in the Haight-Ashbury. free Clinic in 1968 as a young, newly minted doctor. who had had a lot of experience with psychedelics. And the doctors were all saying, people are coming in, you know, having LSD induced psychosis. Yeah. And he goes into a little examining room and there's somebody who's absolutely.

flipping out and he takes a few notes, and then he says, Will you excuse me? There's someone in real trouble in the next room. And as soon as he said that, this person realized, wow, I'm not so fucked up as I thought I was. There's somebody fucked up in me, and they were fine. so he understood what was going on in a way that the other doctors didn't. but people do flip out, and these experiences can be mitigated, I think, if you're, if you work with a guide, mean.

someone who's with you to talk you down when this kind of thing happens. But without question, the bad trip is real and it can be absolutely terrifying. And that, you know, as Trevor said earlier, the effects cannot be predicted. There's a there's a kind of a physiological signature. to alcohol or cocaine. That's not true with psychedelics. Everybody has their own experience. And, a lot of it depends, as Timothy Leary famously said on set and setting, that.

you've got to be in the right mindset and you need to be in a very safe setting, where you're not worried about the Fedex driver coming to the door or, or a call from your mother. Michael, let me ask you this. I distinctly remember, and it's purely anecdotal how. the the the conversation around weed, cannabis, marijuana, or whatever. you want to call it changed when white American moms started smoking it, all of a sudden, America was like, actually, maybe it's not so bad.

Tell me more Snoop Doggy Dogg, you know what I mean? It started changing. Well, how to change your mind? My my book about it was, in 2018. And at that point, there were lots of people. who were using psychedelics but would never talk about it publicly. And one of the things that's happened is that that taboo. and none of the scientists would ever admit to ever having had. an experience on the record, they'd do it off the record, which was hard for me. but that.

everything changed, in the, in the few years after that. And it became acceptable, for people to talk about their use. but I think the big thing is the taboo, you know, has has lifted the way it did with cannabis. right. It was, it was mom's doing it. But what happened first was and this was the activists did this, they rebranded cannabis from Cheech and Chong. Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah to medicine for Aids. patients and people with wasting syndrome and things like that.

And remember, we started with medical marijuana and that changed the image. And it may be the same thing is happening with psychedelics, which are getting a lot of attention as a therapeutic aid. But, you know, as one of my sources put it, they're very important. for the betterment of, well, people also, not just people who are ill. Yeah. So, so far, though, the path that they're on, I think, is. there are two paths, really. There's a medical path that we've talked about. There's also a spiritual path.

There are a lot of people who are interested in religion. There was a really interesting study, it that hasn't been published yet. that I'm writing about where religious leaders in, in like 13. different faiths were given a high dose of psilocybin to see what insight. they might have on the religious visions they had in the mystical experience. And what did they find? Well, a lot of these people were burnt out, before it worked. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Dying. Yeah, people. It really hard times in their lives and congregations are shrinking.

And many of the ones I talked to were had their faith renewed. They all had divine encounters except for, a Buddhist. So that's it's kind of what you'd expect. The Buddhist, the Buddhist said, I when I interviewed her, she's a Buddhist priest. And she said, I traveled to a realm beyond concept for which there are no words. Oh, I love that. It's a very it was a very short interview. There was no where to go from there. But others, had a very.

they were really surprised that the divine didn't always conform to their faith. And in many cases, I think the majority, the divine was feminine. And that blew some of their mind. I love that God is a woman. I can get by that God is a woman. And so now we've got her and we've got her. What's what? Okay, wait, so what's what's the thing you're most like when you. when you think about it? What is so funny? I was what's the scariest thing you think of what scares me? The benefits.

Wait, what's. Yeah, everything I read about about the good. And I'd love Michael to go through the benefits first. And then I explain why I found it profoundly terrifying. Wait wait wait wait wait wait wait. I thought you're going to go. Yeah, this is interesting. Wait. I thought you're going to tell me that you're afraid of. Yeah, but all of that stuff also exists with alcohol, which I think if it was invented today, we probably wouldn't sell it so freely. Do you know what I mean? Like, all of that stuff exists. with other substances, but psychedelics, for me, the more I read. it was the benefits that was like, this is some cultish, scary shit.

And people should just be Pentecostals. But, Michael, I want you to talk through, the benefits particularly, what did take me was end of life care. This was the most moving, work. that I saw getting done, which was, people with cancer diagnoses, many of them terminal. having a guided psychedelic session. This happened at NYU in New York and at Johns Hopkins in Baltimore.

And I interviewed a lot of these people, and they had their whole, attitude toward death and their anxiety, changed. Some had the experience of, developed a confidence. that something would happen to their consciousness after they died. Other people had incredibly. naturalistic scenarios in their head about what would happen. I remember one woman describing,

that she'd been flying. all over the world and then went into the ground. and was kind of disaggregated, and her molecules were taken up by plants. Wow. And she now this is not a supernatural idea. This actually happens, right? Yes. Yeah. But but to feel it I mean but she felt it and she identified with it. and and she identified with something beyond her ego that made it easier. to think about her death, that we are all interconnected and that,

in some way she would go on and yes, her ego would not. But that was okay. And this experience of, of of, what's called ego dissolution, of feeling that your, your self has kind of. been I mean, I had I describe in the, in the book. this experience of seeing myself explode into a cloud of blue post-it notes, which then fluttered to the ground. and formed this pool of thick blue paint.

And, from some new perspective, I'm observing this, and I was like, okay, this is perfectly fine. That's okay. Being a puddle of blue paint, I don't have a problem with that. but what happens when your ego dissolves? Is that the barrier your ego is is a wall. It's a defensive structure. Right. And, when the when the walls come down, there's nothing. separating you from whatever is out there. We're going to continue this conversation right after this.

short break. I have friends. who took psychedelics as atheists. and then. called me and said, I now believe in a god. I'm talking about the most skeptical. Yeah, just like callous individuals. They go like I die and nothing. It's straight materialist. You forget, you forget about this is stupid.

And then they take they take psychedelics and they will say to. me, look, I don't know what it's called. I don't know who made it or whether it made me or how it works. or doesn't work. But I now know that it exists and you see them develop. a different connection. with themselves and with this idea that goes beyond themselves. And I, I always wanted to actually make like, you know, we know that. psychedelics affect or at least mushrooms in particular affect our neuroplasticity.

Right. So essentially what it does is it interrupts your brain's ability. to make assumptions about things, which is how the human brain needs to work. Yeah, right. The reason a baby is enamored by a box is because the brain is constantly going. like, whoa, what is this? Woo! And then at some point you're like, it's a box. That's why when we, you know, when we have like, cake, you know that. What's it called again. Well the trend you guys know the cake. Yeah. Yeah. But cakes not okay. Yeah. But you know why that messes with them. So.

Yeah, but it's something. Is that cake okay? Yeah. So one of the reasons that messes with us and mesmerizes us. so much as adults is because it's sort of returning us back to being a baby. Babies are constantly living in a world of is it cake? You with me? Yes. And so when you play peekaboo with a baby, when you cover your eyes, you know you're gone to them. Yeah, right. So the baby's like, where did you go? And then you open your eyes. Idiot. Yeah, exactly. But that's why they live in so much wonder. That's why they they're like, wow, the world is so big. And I'm sorry to have this is, this is a I think part of my objection.

that's shortcut to wonder. No, but it's not necessarily about the wonder that I'm talking. I'm, I'm talking about the the brain being interrupted. in creating a fixed idea of what it is and what reality is or isn't. Right. Yeah, yeah. But meditate meditation can do that for you. You've never meditated so much that I feel something was cake, I don't lie, okay. All right. Don't everyone who tells me this. You're lying. Wait. Everyone okay? Do you know what? I come from a spiritual tradition. What? People really believe in the transcendent and the supernatural.

Like, I was raised in a Pentecostal tradition where people speak in tongues. They fall on the floor. It's all of the somatic body. What? They see visions all the time. Like they have these out-of-body experiences constantly. and they don't do shrooms. Some of them say they have the experiences, but they don't. I mean, they say it's still true. It's true to them. I don't know, I'll be honest with you. And it's true. It's true to people who take psychedelics. They're insights in the same way. Yeah, they're all subjective opinions that can't be proven.

But the people having these these religious experience is, you know, there is brain chemistry involved. There are two. Yes. So that so we're talking about, you know, chemicals produced by your own. brain or chemicals introduced to your brain that that's the distinction. And I don't know, you know, how important a distinction that is. But I think that going back to what Trevor said, we. don't really take in the world anymore as adults, right? We have a set of predictions and beliefs.

And so that's why we don't think about boxes. It's just a box and it's just cake. And that, we have stopped, having the kind of, what's sometimes called lantern consciousness of children. where they take in information. from everywhere and everything's, you know, awesome and wonderful. we have what's called spotlight, consciousness, which is very useful for getting stuff done. but it, it gives you a kind of focus and it's. based on the world being as the world usually is.

And so very little new information comes in. Our senses are only being used to correct. the predictions that our minds are making. That's it. What psychedelics appear to do. is short circuit that predictive machinery. And what that means is they can help you break out of habits of thinking. and habits of behavior that you're stuck in because you're predicting that, you know, I'm the kind of person who can't get through the day without a drink.

Yeah, this is a prediction about who you are and an identity you're stuck in. and the. psychedelics, Trevor mentioned plasticity. They make the mind more plastic, and they essentially. temporarily dissolve those habits of thought. And that's very useful for people struggling with addiction, for people. struggling with, eating disorders, people struggling with obsessive compulsive. I mean, these are all disorders where you're stuck in a loop.

and you have some habit of thought. You can't break. And psychedelics appears to be able to help people break those habits. I'm curious, can I'm. This is a completely serious question. Can it be used to treat racism. because like that is a pattern. Now that is a to me, that's I mean, I know you I know you've been serious. I've been so scared because I know you think that's maybe it's not you. It's not a it. It's not a ridiculous question. No. I'm like, God, that's so funny. Some people have anorexia, some people have depression. But a lot of people are.

People have racism, right? You or your loved ones suffering from racism? Do you find yourself hating. people because of the color of their skin, like racism, homophobia? These are real. Like consider shrooms. Talk to your doctor about shrooms I just saw. It's a serious question and I like it. Just it caught me off guard. Okay, can it be used to treat racism? So I'm a phobia, etc.? It's a hypothesis that needs to be tested.

you know, they they do change people's beliefs. There's a general belief that the direction of those changes are toward, feeling more like other people, more connected to other people. Yeah, more connected to nature, less tolerance for authoritarianism. I haven't seen a study looking at racial attitudes. but it stands to reason that if there is this. very common feeling of I love everybody, we're all one, you know, and so it's it's not out of the question.

It would be very interesting to test. I mean, racism is a habit of thought, right? Because I actually thought about police officers. when you said that thing about like, our minds making these predictions. Yeah, I thought of sure, we can look at these institutions as. and these are terrible people, but they are basing everything they do. based on predictions and biases. Exactly. Often that they can't help themselves. Like, to me, it's interesting if shrooms can unravel that, you know, in a way that I think words and even living in sometimes. diverse environments cannot.

Well, you know what. happens with these experiences is that people begin. to write new stories, about who they are, about how the world works. But you need to be guided through it. The guide would talk to you about that after the experience. to kind of, solidify a new perception. Yeah, I think I think actually that's that's one of the biggest misconception. that I've seen around. psychedelics, you know, particularly mushrooms, is.

people will go, you take this and your life changes. Yeah. And everything will never be the same. And it's perfect. And to what Michael's saying is, I've found that people. who take mushrooms unintentionally or like that. without intention behind the action, don't have the same results. All they do is they experience a moment of joy. They experience a moment of feeling connected, but then they quickly settle back into all the old patterns. because they've been around for so much longer.

But the people who have a guide, or people who do what they call like. reintegration, those people spend more time in the liminal space. That is thinking about what you're experiencing. That's another reason I didn't like it. Why? Because the as I understand it right, this. the roots of this stuff is indigenous medicine, right? It belonged to a people before it was kind of codified. And it becomes this thing that academics and, you know, Hollywood elites and why I don't think it I don't think it belonged to anyone.

I think people were just taking it, know. But like, it's part of, like indigenous plant medicine. in a way that it's not connected to the white American experience. I am I wrong, Michael? Well, you're partly right and partly wrong. I mean, there is this is great story but like no go guys. So so so so some psychedelics have an indigenous history. Psilocybin is one. It was used in Mexico and Central America for thousands of years. Peyote Native Americans and Mexicans for 6000 years.

But LSD, MDMA, you know, these are. these are creations of of modern, you know, Western chemistry. I think that in general, all the indigenous. use of these substances has a lot to teach us. And that I think one of one of the places we went wrong in the 60s was, not paying attention to the wisdom of indigenous cultures. And we figured we could, you know,

we could create a whole new context and we failed. Where are we seeing the biggest changes. in the adoption of psychedelics or even the acceptance of them? Where are we seeing a thrust coming from a particular segment of society. in America? I think, you know, Silicon Valley has been, a place. where psychedelics are in widespread use. And these are the people who are who are the philanthropists. funding a lot of the studies that are going on. One interesting community that I've been working on,

I'm writing a book about consciousness and most of the philosophers. and neuroscientists who are working on that issue. are experimenting with psychedelics as a, as an avenue of inquiry, you know, people who are completely brain centric, people who think, of course, consciousness emerges from the neurons, are having experiences of consciousness outside of the skull. Yeah. And they're like having and they're having crises, you know, metaphysical crises.

So that's that's really interesting. I don't know how that'll where that'll go. One community that's really important in this space is veterans. it's a. community with, you know, high rates of trauma. what is it, 18 suicides a day in America among the vets? Yeah. And some of them are using it, you know, often in groups, sometimes going down to Mexico or somewhere where it's legal or illegal, but that they're getting a lot of relief, from trauma using a series of psychedelics.

I think, you know, you have this interesting phenomenon. of microdosing, which is very low risk, and many people do it. Christiana alluded to it earlier. Some people find it very helpful. We don't have a lot of science on it to say one way or another, it may be a placebo effect, but there's nothing wrong with the placebo effect. If it works, it works. And placebos are actually driving changes in your in your mind. but that, I. think, makes it very easy for people to enter into this world. that, you know, low risk and potentially high reward.

and that seems to be in many, many different circles. So much to unpack here for me, because I do know. part of my rejection of this is rooted in my own sense of ego. I will, I own that and having a family with mental illness and addiction issues. So there's a lot of stuff around substances for me. And now we have this drug. that is coming more into emergence that some people can afford a fancy guide. Yeah, yeah. And it is very expensive and it's very expensive and like settings.

like it sounds like this is something that could be hugely beneficial. for people who don't have much money and can't afford a diet. So first of all, I want to go back to what you said. about family and and addiction is I, like you, have family members who have struggled with predominately alcohol, you know, and and that addiction, when you see it is is one of the worst things. It's one of the scariest experiences you'll have. That's why when I first encountered any semblance of something that was. even considered a drug, I was like, oh, this is the escalation of that.

Yeah. I was like, if alcohol is 10% bad drugs off, 500% bad. That's how I thought. And then what I came to find is how these, these substances, you know, these medicines, I would even call them, they do the opposite of, of like alcohol. The I always try and explain this to friends. I go. alcohol disconnects you from. yourself and psychedelics connect you to yourself. I've met very few people, if any actually, who go, oh yeah,

I can't believe I did that. And I know alcohol always have a story that ends with and then I crash the car. and then I punch this person. Psychedelics does this. It's strange. It's a strange, different connection that connects people to themselves. and who they actually wish to be, as opposed. to, like, who they've sort of become, you know? You know, it sounds so religious. No, no, it isn't, it isn't. It is in many ways. But but you know, what I like about it is it's it's not easily manipulated by a. religious figure out how it's felt for you when you've done psychedelics.

Yeah, that's exactly that's exactly how it's felt. So I think in an optimistic world in the future, right now, it's expensive. This guides people have made it a little like, you know, like, what it like glamping. Yeah. Glamping. Made a glamping right now. But I do think they'll be apps. I do think there'll be a democratization of the idea of a guide. Generally. I genuinely think it'll be very short before you'll have you'll have an AI guide. on your phone. So dystopian. No, I know it is in some ways, but. But can I tell you something?

I actually think that that will be what opens it up to everyone in the right way. And I think that's going to open. It's in the right way because you don't see your point. Michael. When people have used psychedelics. in the right settings, with the right company, with the right intention, I've witnessed people change their lives. I've seen people who couldn't build connections with their families. They had deep traumas that they've held their entire lives, and they couldn't.

With all the talk therapy in the world, they couldn't let go of the feeling. You know, the feeling you have when when somebody has traumatized you, when you've experienced trauma because of them or around them. I've witnessed people lose that. I've seen people shift so much of who they were to who they could be. Yeah, because of psychedelics. And when we live in a world where so many people. do what they do because they're stuck in the idea of who they are, I think of. how magical it could be to find ourselves in a place where it's not.

First of all, it's not a pharmaceutically controlled thing. There's no like a don't you want to create a world where. less people feel they need to escape reality. because they're so depressed, anxious and traumatized? Like, yeah, it feels. And that's and that's what I'm saying, I don't know, I know if you agree, Mike, I feel like psychedelic acts are kind of like a plaster. over the, the, the mother wound or whatever it is. Yeah. You know, if we want in a capitalist hellscape. Right. And we had good. How challenging good challenges and more people were healed I, I.

this is a work of like prison abolitionist right. Who are like don't put him in prison. He just needs organic food and a nice house. Right? No, no, no, but okay, let me challenge you on this real, real quick. I think it is beautiful for us to think of, you know, psychedelics as a soul for what's happening now. And I think in many ways, it can help with a lot of what society is going through. However, this has been as old as time. There will always be something that makes a human condition. You get you're going to get eaten by a lion that is going to traumatize you.

Okay, well, and don't forget death. I mean, you could have the perfect society. Yeah, but you're still going to have death. But that's very appealing to me. Like, it's very natural, but it but it makes me crazy. It does. I mean, it's, it's, you know, very disturbing to us. And we don't we're not very good at processing it. And so I agree, I mean, the goal should be to remove causes of trauma. and that's a worthy goal. And being able to treat people who have been traumatized. does not in any way diminish the need to address the causes of it.

But it's going to happen. Yeah. And so you do have to give some thought to how you. how you treat people who've had this in terms of democratizing it. yeah. You can, you can, I guess, use technology. and maybe I will turn out to be very good guides, but I think this is why there is so much energy on the part of, researchers in this area to get FDA approval. I mean, that's really how you reach lots of people, and that's what we were.

hoping would happen with MDMA, although that approval has been. Yeah, actually let's delayed let's talk a little bit about that. This is my conspiracy theory. I'll put it out there. I love it already. There's a conspiracy theory. My conspiracy theory is that governments won't legalize or won't fully accept. these medicines or these substances or whatever you want to call them. They won't formalize them. until the pharmaceutical industry has figured out a way to synthesize them. Okay. And when they've learned. how to synthesize them and sort of like corral what they do,

they're going to sell synthetic versions of it to people at a mocked up price. that nobody can afford. Right. And then what they're going to do is they're going to outlaw the stuff that. people work, just growing and being able to make and distribute themselves. That's my problem. Like, I'm sure that's a wonderful DEA approval. No, no, no no no. I'm saying they should just go like, hey, you can use it. the same way they let you use alcohol, you know, because I, I think, you know, and Michael, I don't know if you,

you have an opinion on it, but I, I just go like. once it becomes a formalized medicine and they block out what it has been. and can be for so many people, I think then we actually end up in a world. where you can't get it now because you don't have health insurance. or you don't have enough money to buy the medicine. The official FDA approved. When the thing grows out of the ground, it's mushrooms. It's the most resilient thing, which is why. which is why I think it'll be hard to control. I mean, I think that the means of production are so easily acquired, by everyone.

But I think you're right. I mean, we saw if you compare that, what happened with MDMA, whose approval was rejected by the FDA to, the approval of, privado or esketamine. This is a form of ketamine, approved for depression. It's a nasal inhaler. They had to do three phase three tests before they got. one that showed it worked at all. Wow. And yet it got through. Why?

Because it had big pharma behind it. Yeah. And it was also a drug that could be administered without any therapy. The FDA is totally stumped. by the idea of what really should be called, psychedelic assisted psychotherapy. because you can't remove the therapeutic component. Yeah, it really is. It's important to its effectiveness, its importance to its safety. it mitigates the chances of bad experiences.

and helps people consolidate what they've learned. And the FDA is not equipped to regulate therapies. So they kind of threw up their hands. But when the business model is figured out and it hasn't been yet, for any of these substances, then big Pharma will get involved. And then the sort of scenario. that Trevor's describing, I'm afraid, could could well come to pass. Don't go anywhere because we got more. What now? After this?

And I fit a profile. of a person who's typically anti, psychedelics. And that's a mother who has young children at home. And I guess like it's my kids hit ten, 11, 12, 13, 14. That exploration is just a normal part of adolescence. If it was sex, I'd be like, here's some condoms. You know, I, you know, I like everything out. And I'm like, with what we know about how adolescent brains are, their fragility,

but also their their ability to change so quickly, how does a parent discuss this with their 15 year. old, 16 year old kid who's interested and who's probably going to try it? Is there a safe way for them to do it, or they need to kind of be like Ronald. Reagan over hear me and just say, don't do anything and stay in your room. Like, and I'm just curious about. what the conversations around streams looks like for parents to their children. And is it even appropriate for like, I don't mind my 15 year old. smoking some weed, but like when you say.

they're going on a journey and I may see vampires. Oh my. No no no, that's you know. So Michael. Yeah. Yes. I, you know, I, I didn't have to deal with this. my son, by the time I got interested, my son was, you know, well into his 20s, I think. And he had a couple experiences. with before you or after you got into it before me. Oh, okay. Okay. And, you know, I mean, I'll tell you very quickly what would happen. because it gives you some sense of what can go wrong. He, he and a friend went up to Tilden Park,

which is, the in the park above Berkeley where we live. They drove up there in our car, I should say. They took mushrooms. And his friend became convinced that his arm was falling off. And it was it was about to fall off. And my son could not persuade him that his arm was well attached. And it wasn't a problem. They were in, I think, high school, early high school. And, you know, this became a freak out. And they get to a parking lot and my son finds,

a sympathetic woman there and says, can you help us? My son, my my friend thinks his arm is falling off. Can you drive us to his pediatrician's office? I. that's that's what they did. And she was able to assure him in a way my son couldn't, that his arm was not falling off, and his arm was well attached. And there was nothing to worry about, and they got through it. But, you know, my my concern in that narrative is the car.

is the involvement of the car, as it would be if he were using alcohol. Yeah, I think and some people would disagree with me about this. But in general, you're talking about, chemicals that, mess with your ego. And it seems to me until you fully. developed your ego, that might not be a good idea. And that, you know, kids and boys in particular are still developing. into their early 20s, and it seems like that might not be the best time to do it.

I see psychedelics is kind of a rite of passage, and cultures. are always very specific about who's eligible for a rite of passage. Yeah. And I would say a 13 year old not not ready now. I love that framing. The rite of passage. No, I love that. So it's funny you say that. I so I remember talking to my my youngest brother about it, and he is 20. and we had this whole conversation and he was like, well, you know what is. what is this thing about? Because he knows me. We've grown up in the same household, you know.

And so I said to my youngest brother, I said, you know, the biggest reason I would say to you, you shouldn't. And this is why I would say to any young person why you shouldn't. do mushrooms is because it will not give you other than like, oh, hallucinations of what I mean, but it won't give you the thing. that is so important for like older people to get from it. And that is a loosening of how you see the world. Young people already have a loose view of the world. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's why they. they're the ones who start revolutions and they protest for different ideas.

And the company. Yeah. No. It's true. Yeah. It's all the young who think this could be different. And so I said to him, I was like, your brain is already so. fantastically plastic. Why not keep that? Keep that until you find that you're stuck. And I tell this to anyone. I go, you can use mushrooms for fun, but I go, if you can use it. When you're stuck, you're stuck in alcoholism. You're stuck in, in, in love and in relationships. And you can't figure out how to break your patterns. You're stuck in how you see the world you're stuck in, whatever it is.

That's when I would say to somebody, try Jesus, not try. It's like, try entertaining. No, no, no to me. You okay? I'll say this as somebody who has done Jesus and I've done mushrooms, I've done both, I've done Jesus, I've done mushrooms. Jesus is amazing. Jesus is the way, the truth and the life is like my thing. I'm doing the way, the truth and the like. Don't get me wrong, but. I always say, and I always talk to my mom about this.

I go, don't forget Jesus made wine when the party needed wine. So even Jesus knew that sometimes people need a little something. Something, you know what I mean? And by the way, that wine was not just wine. I mean, there's a lot of evidence that the early communion wine was spiked. Oh, wow. Are you serious? Oh, yeah. Completely serious. So there's a there are archeologists that specialize in chemistry, and they've been looking at, early communion cups,

and they found one in, Spain. that had residues of Erik God, which is the fungus from which, LSD was derived. No. When I know, I know. So there is a theory and it needs a lot more research and proof. There's a good book on this called The Immortality Key by Brian Moore rescue. And but that there is some reason to believe that, there was another drug in the communion cups,

and they were trying to give people, as you know, the, the, the Native Americans and any other research, a big experience. And what we have left is, you know, this kind of devotee wine, it's, you know, nothing special. But, but once. upon a time, it it apparently had a real kick. I think what I, what I, what I don't like is how. I've seen how presidential advisors. during the Nixon era and, you know, during the Vietnam War and all of that,

they specifically set out to targets, these psychedelics. Yeah, because they felt they undermined what America was trying to be. And what was America trying to be at that time, a place where it fights. wars, it bombs other countries, it gets their resources, and it makes people clamor for those resources in their lives. And they found. when people started using these psychedelics, they didn't care about being a manager. They didn't care about getting more money than the person around them.

They didn't care as much. They cared about other people. They wanted other people to eat. Yeah. And this they felt undermined what the American dream was. for the US government. And because I'm someone, yes, I'm someone that loves order. like I'm an order, you know, freedom type of person. Yes. But what I'm saying is you're free people opening their consciousness. No, but what I'm saying is that ironically, ironically, that's why I think, like, the indoctrination has worked, they've tricked people into believing. that there is only one way to have order.

Okay. Do you get them saying, yeah, they've tricked people into believing. that the only way we can live in a civilized society. is if everybody goes to an office and everybody tries to make as much money. as possible, and everybody screws each other over, that's order. But. But when it's ancient tribes, you know, whether it was Native Americans, whether it was, you know, in South America, whether it was in Africa with they had order. Yeah. And this was a tool that they used. ironically to maintain that order because we did maintain that. Yeah. Because because when people are stuck, that's when there's disorder for sure.

You know, this is when people now they break, they they fight, they hurt each other. They that's the thing that actually brings the order back. because you go like, oh yeah, I'm part of something. I'm not alone in this. Yeah, we're all part of something. Yeah, I think that's my problem. I'm not comfortable with a society where there's no yearning. and like, profound brokenness for people to keep striving. Yeah, but I'm fighting. For what? No, but striving for what's striving for. Just like this being their best, which is actually actually.

So. No, no, I want to I'm going to ask. So I'm going to ask Michael about this, but okay. You know, I'm talking about. Yeah. Right. And, and and I, I would love to know Michael from your side because look at you. You are one of the most accomplished writers. Did you find that you didn't have a yearning after. taking psychedelics, or how did it affect your perception of what you yearn for? Well, you know, one of the things about psychedelics. is you don't immediately want to do them again. It's kind of overwhelming. Yeah. And that's why they're not habit forming.

I think it's like, it's like the cartel doesn't sell mushrooms. Yeah, there's no money. these are I mean, even even when these things are used. in a treatment modality, it's 1 or 2 pills or experiences. That's it. You know, and the pharmaceutical model is based on taking the same pill every day. for the rest of your life. But without question, they're they're very disruptive. You know, they're there. So every society has drugs, right? I mean, it's just a given that humans change consciousness. It's one of the things we do. Children do it when they get dizzy.

we're just not satisfied with everyday normal consciousness. For whatever reason. We have caffeine. we don't even think about that as a drug. but it's a very powerful drug. it happens to be a drug that makes us fit. even more smoothly into the machinery of the capitalist order. It makes us very good workers. And that's why their coffee breaks, right? I mean, think about it. Your employer gives you free drugs and time to use them. That's.

twice a day. That's amazing. So. And then there's alcohol, which kind of numbs people to a miserable life. although they can get into trouble with it. And there's cigarets that actually help, help make people better workers in. various ways. And then they're drugs that disrupt the whole system. And and psychedelics in the Western context in the 60s were definitely that. There was a famous quote, from President Nixon. that his domestic policy advisor, John Erlichman, gave to a journalist.

But basically Erlichman said, yeah, the drug war, which Nixon starts in 1970. that wasn't about public health. That was all about politics. Nixon's great enemies were hippies and black people. Yeah. And by making LSD illegal, he could disrupt the hippie community. And by making marijuana illegal, he could disrupt the black community. So we have to understand that. which drugs are illegal, which ones are not is always changing.

And it depends on the nature of the drug, but also the nature of the society. What's happening with psychedelics now is it's undergoing a transformation. itself, from being this very disruptive force to potentially. being something that could help people deal with various mental health issues. That's the story that hasn't been completely written yet. Whether whether our society can make peace with these incredibly powerful. and disruptive molecules. And the answer the jury's still out.

Yeah, I, I don't think, I mean, I'm, I'm biased, but I'm biased because of the writing. The people I've met, the research, I, I don't think it does, you know, to what Michael just said, it may interrupt. people's yearning to be part of a system that has failed so many. Yes, I agree, I can agree with that. Yeah, but but look at look at what it's done to the world. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Like we're bombing other countries because we want the black goo. that's underneath them, and then we'll bomb another country.

because we want that thing, or we feel like we need that. And all of that yearning. I don't mind if some of that goes down. I, I think because I think people will have a different kind of yearning, and I think that'll broaden us out again, as people do. You get them saying completely freely, I like I know that a lot of my objection is, on one hand, indoctrination. Yes. And then it's just like being a mother. It's fear, of course. Know that I understand. Thanks, Texans. You know, it's just like it's this loosening.

or this loss of yearning or happening. All that terrifies. I couldn't even live through 2020. That was that. And we just had to be in our rooms. And black people were like, we want a few more rights. And I was like, what's going on here? Like, it was just like it was any sort of upheaval. I guess it's the British in me. We never really had a revolution, and it's just, I don't know, it's just like. come from society is are all about order and hierarchy. And there's a king, there's a queen. And, you know, if you're Nigerian, you have a chief, do you know what I mean? And so like, there's a lot of fear on the other side of it. And the ego, even if it's not something that I should,

because I think that even though I'm like, this isn't for me, there. could be someone else in my life that's like, I could say, you know what? You should try microdosing. This could help people. Exactly. Or, I mean, even if I never wanted to use these substances again, I think I'd want to live in a world where other people were. I like that some other people, yeah. Because, you know, what we're doing is I mean, there's. there's we haven't talked about creativity. And, you know, some people get great ideas on psychedelics.

They're they're, cultural mutagens. That. Right. They're like the Beatles. We don't have the Beatles without psychedelics. I don't know what's the Beatles Strummer that probably ever this hot take. Yeah. So I think I'm whoa. I'm wondering. Okay, well, I'd take terrible and keep inspired. But anyway. Sorry. Yes. Mike or Steve Jobs, right. Yeah. Who credited his his creative vision to LSD? I mean, I think that. you want to have a lot of different kinds of people in your world, in your culture,

and some of them are exploring frontiers of knowledge and or, or frontiers of the self and interiority and some are not. And, it's not for everybody. but I think that it's, on balance, a good thing they exist. And the fact that people can achieve these states of consciousness, which may benefit all of us, I love that. Michael, thank you. Thank you for joining us. You know, I you know me. I could talk to you for hours and hours about this. because I do believe not that this is the solve for everything,

but rather that there are many people who are stuck in their lives. And when you can start to unlock that. in people, you just you just change. You know how people when you. when you change, how you see the world, you change how you be in that world. Yeah. And I don't know. And the fact that you have a way of seeing the world. we're not even aware of, we're not aware of this windshield, this consciousness. Right. Yeah. I like what psychedelics do is they kind of smudge the windshield in your eyes.

Oh, shit. There's a windshield there. Yeah. In fact, that's it. That I would say. Could it be another way? I would argue world leaders should be doing psychedelics. Like, you see the UN one day at the UN, everybody should have to take psychedelics and they should all get guided. And then you can start. you can only start negotiating about how the world should be. when you are fully able to see the world through multiple lenses. That's what I believe. So, Michael, I'm going to try I'm going to pitch that. And you, I like that you're going to come in General Assembly.

Let's do it. We're going to do it like the communion. We're just going to spike all the water that's in front of them. And then we start. We start guiding them from the front. Michael Pollan, thank you so much. Thank you so much again for joining us. Thank you, guys. And thank you, Christiana, for adding some hybrid vigor to the conversation. I love it, I love it, I call it hating, but you call it hybrid vigor. I that's going to be the new term. We use hybrid vigor. She's a hybrid vigorous.

I love it I love my Instagram bio and I love that. Thank you so much Michael. All right you guys take care okay. So okay so let me let me ask you this. So first of all if we were at 100% no. for me personally or for society. No. For you personally. Yeah. Oh okay. We can do both. You are 100% no for both. Okay. Okay. So let's let's let's go. Let's go with society. Where where are you now?

For my for society I'm like 50%. Oh, no. Because I think. that's a that's a that's a good jump. I think most people should not be anywhere near this. This is this is fine. I'm willing I'm willing to take you like when you selling like end of life care. Yes. Veteran. Yes. You know, people need relief. People need healing. And however you find a healing in a way. that's not harmful, I don't want to be in the way of that. But for everyone else, you need to figure out, I beg out, throw out everyone sometimes.

And for you personally. For me personally, got me down to maybe 100% no to like 95% no, because I don't want to augment my reality. So you. So there's nothing in your life where you go like I'm stuck. and I haven't been able to unstuck. My whole family situation is crazy. Yeah, but I, I can't fix that. No, but I don't think it makes it extended family. But, like, look what I'm saying. What about you in there? I agree, they're like blocks and stories, but we tell ourselves. Yeah, I feel like someone. that I encountered to the divine and I had, like a sense of wonder nature. My children. Yeah.

I don't have that yearning for it right now. And that's why I wouldn't say you should do things that do that for me. But like I, I, I see the benefits. But Michael's great. You're great. You have changed my mind. I'll take it. 5%. I have moved somebody who is extremely vigorous. I'll take my hybrid vigor. I think I. hybrid vigor. What now? With Trevor. Noah is produced by Spotify Studios in partnership with Day Zero Productions.

The show is executive produced by Trevor Noah, Sanaa Yamin and Jody AV. Again, our senior producer is Jess Hackel. Claire Slaughter is our producer. Music mixing and mastering by Hannah Brown. Thank you so much for listening. Join me next Thursday for another episode of What Now? I love.