Tight Values, Loose Ideas with Malcolm Gladwell | What Now? with Trevor Noah Podcast

You know, this year you will someday know. that, you know, the the the market share. capture the brain share capture of toddlers. by sesame Street is like 95% same weight. It's still that high. yes. amazing. class it. No, you know what I'm happy about? I felt like it was over for Sesame Street. And that was all like Cocomelon and. No, no. that's really got a strangle. They got it. They they have your kid. It. Yeah it's Sesame Street. that's a healthy had like a pig. and cocoa man pepper coca man is like crack.

cocomelon. I outlaw Cocomelon. Yeah, it is dangerous. I don't know what to do. I call them the cocoa fellows. The kids watch that stuff. Don't know what's I. If I have to listen to my cocomelon, I'm. bringing back stop and frisk. That's that's how much people radicalize me. or this is what now. with Trevor Noah,

we were telling people when we took about. I was like, you know, black people don't know. Michael Black But white people don't know. Malcolm Yeah, I don't know why people don't know. I'm still. I would if back in the day we'd been very. I was born in the wrong century, 19th century, fantastic business. If you would have taken the system down. from the inside out, you're like, Wait a minute, like historians would have uncovered. I said, Wait a second, he was black.

What was he doing in Congress? I was talking about Malcolm being passing. Yeah, to white people. Black people seem to have it like, hey, they like to tell it is a tell. this completely. It's helped. But now you'd. I didn't know that. When did this Nigerian thing happen? I did 23 and me and I'm 23% Igbo. my God. Which is so fantastic. And I put it on Twitter. and I mean, and this is like every Nigerian on Twitter. is like, my God, fantastic. But every single one was positive. Like, it was the most. inclusive experience I've ever.

had in my life. I was very happy. and because But it was obvious. because Jamaicans are all Igbo, right? Yeah, yeah. Jamaica is just Nigeria, right? Yeah, it's my advance too. So you had. no you had no clue that you had. any Nigerian and you. Well, I guessed. Okay. But now, you know, definitive now anyway, what is it? So 23 23% Igbo amount. It's not enough for a tipping point, as we've learned from this book. It's not enough. Malcolm, you're like 7% sure you can change. You know, Nigerians, Nigeria's 1% of us.

So technically 1% is more than. the other. Doesn't the Jamaican friend I. I was at the world. championships track championships. and I see Shelly-Ann Fraser-Pryce. Right. Right. One of my heroes. So she's like this big. I go up and say, Hello, my name is Malcolm. I don't know if you know. that some have Jamaica. She says. There's no such thing as half Jamaican, There's only Jamaican. So yeah, that's the right attitude. That is the right attitude. There's no such thing as 23% Nigerian.

Yeah, I sometimes think that's. what like. if instead of the British, if like Africans colonized the world, no one would have been left out, do you not? I mean, because, like, look, no, because all other. colonization was like, you're not like us. Yeah. And then like, whereas Africans are very much. any anyone black anyway, they just go like, No, no, you with us, let's go, let's go. It doesn't matter. Even if. have you even seen. those videos online of people. who can just speak the language. or can do the accent? Well, they're like, All right, you one of us. I would say Malcolm should go to ABC State.

Don't make him a chief. Chief Gladwell. Gladwell Quick. man. Malcolm, I. assure you, I. saw you were releasing a new book. And, you know, I'm a huge fan of yours. We've we've talked over the years, and I'm always trying to see what Malcolm. Gladwell is thinking of. to give me a sense of like. what I'm missing in the world. I think a lot of people think like that. You know, as my friend David says,

you've met David. As you say, you make. people think they're smart. because they read. your book. and then they talk. to other people about it. But but like, this book is is an interesting. take on Malcolm Gladwell, like Revenge of the Tipping Point. At first I was like, wait, is it a continuation? Is it a. but no, it feels like you were going up. against you. Is it You're thinking it. You're thinking. it's an exercise in self-hatred. Is that which is. No, no, no, no. Because here's the thing. Oftentimes people write a book. that and very, very seldom.

will it change the world. Let's let's start with that. Right. The tipping point, I would argue, changed the way people. fundamentally think about many things. And then very few people. would then go back and go, well, actually let's change. some of the thinking that this book. basically laid the foundations for. Why do that? Well, no one likes. changing his mind more than me. First of all, I just enjoy it. My dad, my dad really enjoyed it. And as a kid, some of my my greatest. memories of my father, who was a marvelous character, was him.

just shamelessly. changing his mind on a subject like. without any explanation or apology. He just would agree he'd talk to somebody. And he if he would always. make this calculation, you talk to someone. and if he thought they knew even. 1% more on the subject than he did, he'd just like, all right, you're right. And that was it. And he was done. I thought, this is fantastic as a child. And I and secretly, that's what I want. I want to be the guy who wakes up and decides.

And my partner is always. making fun of me on this because. I will not like someone. And then I'll just wake up the great like, why don't we have them over? So I thought, you do like them. So yeah, it's, you know, that was the pass. Now I'm all over them. So I, I didn't read the. tipping point after I wrote it. and then it was this anniversary. and I thought, I should read it again. because we were thinking of doing a new. revised edition. So I read it again. I'm like, Wait a second, I wrote that. Like,

I just feel. it's like arguing with the book the whole time. So I said, I want to do a new it. That was basically what happened. Are you the opposite of the same? I'm the opposite, and that's why I find it. so interesting that you were raised by. a man who, like changes his mind is like. my parents are like. deep Christians and they're. not changing their mind about anything. My parents. deep Christians. Okay, that's interesting. They're not all of us here. Okay? But I know Jews. Here we are. Three of it in his name. Let's go. Yo. But no, not change your mind about that. Yeah.

So I'm saying that I'm. used to real rigidity and rules, and I don't call it dogma orthodoxy. Right. So surprising that. I think it takes great humility, but it also must be quite painful. to go back and read this book that, as Trevor said, change the way we think about ideas. and how they spread and be like, Not right. I don't think it's painful. First of all, just to go back on parents for a second. So my father in my father's. can I talk about. Yeah, of course. Talk about your dad. You passed six or seven years ago.

I wrote his obituary and I said. he had strong opinions about the Bible, gardening and mathematics. and everything else. He was open to suggestion, and I sort of think that's the right model. You got to have your. core set of things that you hold dearly. And I think you should. always use the phrase that. ideas should be held loosely. And they're not values, but idea. Values you hold tightly. and ideas you hold loose. because stuff changes. and you grow up or you're,

you know, the original tipping point. There's a chapter on crime, which is just I'm a. why New York City crime fell in the nineties. It's an appalling chapter. I mean, it's appalling. I is just like the broken windows. Yes, Yes. Like wolves, I think. I mean, I didn't know any better, I guess, but it's not difficult to me. It's very freeing to say I was wrong. I'm curious. Is it. that the Well, do you think the world has changed. that radically. in the 25 years or the ideas wrong then?

Well, I mean, the world. Yes, of course, the world has changed, although probably changed less than we. think. I think sometimes we fetishize, you know, certain kinds of. technological innovation and think we've. reinvented ourselves as human beings. And it's just, to my mind, a little bit more of the same. But mostly it's that. I think the crime example is a good one. that I wrote that Broken Windows was a fetish. in New York City in the nineties.

The mayor Giuliani at the time. was like running around and saying, you know, the only way to stop murder. was to stop people from peeing on a sidewalk. Now, I think he was right to say that. we should people shouldn't be. peeing on the sidewalk and we should clean it. That was totally right. But he made two subsequent connections. His first thing was that the way. to stop people. from engaging that kind of behavior. was to arrest them by the thousands. And then secondly, he said, and that's also, by the way, how you stop violent crime. Both of those second claims. were, in retrospect, preposterous right.

in the moment in the late nineties, when we had just. witnessed New York go from being. one of the least safe big cities. in North America to one of the safest, we were sort of willing to accept. to pay any price for that improvement. in safety and accept any any explanation. And that was the fever that I was caught up in. I was like, okay, we're arresting hundreds of thousands. of young black men in the Bronx and Brooklyn, but better be better that than being killed.

That's what we were all thinking. Yeah. And then, you know, I subsequently learned. this is actually. an incredibly interesting history. You know, what happens is a judge. stops stop and frisk in New York. We go from stopping 700,000 people. in one year to stopping 20,000. And everyone says, including the judge who stopped it, crime is going to go back up. and what happens? Crime falls another 50%. Everyone's like, my God, Not only do we stop and frisk irrelevant.

to the crime drop, maybe it was preventing us from using police. resources in a way that actually helped. yeah, solve it. So we learned this happened in 2012. And my point is, if you lived through that. learning moment in 2012 when we took away. stop and frisk and crime fell another 50%, if you lived through those next five years. and you didn't. change your mind, then you are morally. bankrupt, right? You have to have changed. your mind at that point. So you have to acknowledge.

it's not wrong to be wrong in 1996. It's wrong to not change. your mind after we learn something. crucial in those. in those post-up stop and frisk years. It's like you have to get a. you have to respond. If the price of. playing the game of ideas in the world. is you have to stay on your toes and respond. to new evidence as it arises, that's the going to play this game. That's the rule. Okay, here's the thing.

I think there are two things. that you don't do that probably help you. One, you don't make it your identity. So you wrote about broken windows, but then there are some people who shape. their lives around broken windows. And then secondly, you didn't implement any policies. And I think that's probably one. of the scariest things, like politicians. in America are perfect examples. Very few of them are able to say, Yeah, that was wrong. We use data that at the time was misread. or misunderstood, or we used what we had and we made.

an incorrect decision. They don't say that. They go like no. If you look at what we. were trying to do and we we still. because everyone's. afraid to say, I mean, just in life, everyone is afraid to say I was wrong. Like listening to you right now. I don't know how many times. I've heard human beings say that, you know, like I look back and go like, Damn, what was I thinking, though? So, I mean, I find it weird. And also it's so long ago, like. this is the this was the late nineties if. I'm older than you guys, but. it's like if you looked.

at your high school yearbook or like, it's. just everything about it is cringeworthy. I mean, it should be fine. to look back on your 25 years in the past self. and have an issue. I would, I would hope he would have an issue. I think it's. because so much of. the world that we live in currently. is built as a foreigner coming to America. So many times. a constitution is reference. and the amendments are reference. A world of built on ideas. that sometimes emerge thousands of years ago.

and we refuse to revisit them in the same way. you're revisiting tipping point. But the funny thing about the amendments. for me is the name itself. Like whenever people get angry, you know that. you talk about the amendments you got like, you changed them and then like. you don't change them. And then I'm like, Amendment means change. Change means they don't want any more change. Yes, but what I'm saying is like, yeah, that's, that's what I find ironic. in the situation is like, I agree with. you constitution all document. but it's a living document. You know, for instance, it was one of the first documents. that was created.

where they said, Hey, the whole purpose of this thing. is that you're supposed to change it. Because, look, we think what we think right now, it's almost like the forefathers. looked at each other and they were just like, I don't know about these wigs. I don't know about these shoes, certain. about these ideas. Yeah. So let's let people change them. And like, I'd like I've seen I mean, I'm no, if you, like, read reviews about your work, some people almost seem angry at you. They, like, seem angry. that Malcolm Gladwell. would change because he has my my theory. So I love changing my mind.

Okay. Maybe that's why I like you so much. But I think some people. base their ideas on other people's ideas. And so then if you change your idea, they get so angry at you because they're like, No, you. wouldn't, because making them do work. Yeah, Theater of art, you have to revise your opinion of them. And that seems like, that, that seems like an imposition. I think that's what. as opposed to kind of,

you know, it's the same way when a musician. makes a kind of change in their style. Yeah, there's a set of fans. who are appalled by this. Like, like they don't like they want the musician. to be kind of frozen in amber. Yeah, to be the same person. they encounter. for the first time at 16, you use an electric guitar or whatever. the the argument is. Yeah, it is a funny I don't I think you view it. The question is. who is your obligation to as a writer? Is it to your audience or is it to yourself? I think it has to be first and foremost.

It has to be to yourself. We're going to continue this conversation. right after this short break. And so. so now let's let let's play. I want to play a malcolm Gladwell. game in this moment here so someone might go, But Malcolm, how can I can I trust this? Because now, like you. just wrote a book that says I shouldn't. trust what you wrote in the other book. And then how do you like how do you know?

I mean, it. sounds like you shouldn't trust. what I said in the other book, right? It's that I've moved on. It's just not where I am at this moment. So you're saying, like the it's not. that the ideas are wrong, it's. that we should be able to change our. we should be able to evolve our ideas. based on new information. I haven't repudiated them. They're not who I am now. Right. Yes. You know, in the same way, it wasn't to go back to my dad. when my dad changed his. mind, Sometimes it would be. he would go from, you know, A to Z. But sometimes it was.

just he just there was an earlier. version of himself that believed this. And then that self was gone. and he was now someone who. believed this new thing. It was just a kind of. it was it's just about accepting the evolution. The thinking involves evolution. You're somebody. you were a journalist, you know, and you used to digging and borrowing. and, you know, finding old tapes and and newspaper articles. And like for the average person, like, where do they get the new ideas? Where do they. even get the opportunity to change their minds? You know, this is interesting.

I have a friend of mine, I was playing the game of a lot, playing the magic wand game. where you could change, wave a magic wand and change one thing. What would it be in a world? And her answer was. to make everyone in the world. for one year trade places. with someone else in the world. So just imagine a big random. Everyone in the world puts a random swap. and it will take you, put your. your address in a hat, and then you pull out a different address.

and you got to live there for a year. And her argument was this only works. with people with addresses. By the way, I'm just going to point this out. So, yeah, if you. some people are just on the street, you have to put. where you are. on the street and then something like that. So yeah, and her argument would be that. this would be. the single greatest way to solve like. the single greatest. short term solution to mankind's problems. But I think she's 100% right. It's such a genius idea. But my point is, if you want to participate. in the world in a in a kind of.

ethical way. is I have. you have to do a version of this in your life. So my. I have a simple thing I do. which is I try and change the people. I follow a very small number. of people on Twitter. and I change constantly change them. And so I cycle through like I'm. always like once a week or something. I drop two. or three people and add two or three people. just trying to because you get exposed to new. Yeah, yeah. And I try to get the I also want.

so I follow the Ukrainian war. I don't know like really closely. but entirely. through. these ex-military guys. who are obsessed with logistics. I love these guys and like it's stuff. I would never in a million years. have heard of for it's not none of. what they say is in the news. It's all so weird. It's super interesting. My favorite guys, this guy Trent Blanco, said, like, I want to meet him one day, who's like, by the way, he's been saying the Russians,

the Russians are going to lose for it. He's been saying this. since the beginning of the war. And he had this great tweet early. in the war where he found a photograph. of a Russian transport carrier, like a truck. that was in the stuck in the mud. Yeah, he zeroes in on the tires. I remember this. Remember this? Yes, I remember this. Made in the USSR. And he was like, They've lost the king when their tires. are from before the wall fell. Yeah. He goes. This whole rant about tires. What? How you got it? You got to be rotating the tires.

If the truck's in storage, the tire is going to break apart. Like it's like it. if there's tires of that that says it, sure, this doesn't work and you don't have this. And like, it's like. so that's like. you have to keep exposing yourself. That's how you that's. how you learn about what you need to update. Yeah, right. Yeah. So now when I read something. conventional about the war, I have a slightly different perspective. because I have trends in my head. Yeah, I'm asking a different. set of questions about things. that I would have otherwise. I'm not that I it's not that I'm a skeptic. It's just that I just I have a different.

you know, I'm. looking at it. from a different perspective, like. what you've described. I think you have this basic level. of intellectual curiosity. And Trevor said earlier that the reason. you can hold your ideas loosely. is because your idea is on your identity. Yeah. Now I would say. it feels in this specific moment. for a lot of people. that their ideas are actually a huge part. of their identity. They make up their identity. So if they're not going. to come apart from that idea. because it's like, who?

There's a vacuum after that. So what do we do? And we're engaging with people in our lives. who ideas have become their identity. and you're trying to get them. to see another point of view. or point them towards something else. And they're like, you're just a crazy liberal. You're just a crazy conservative. Yeah, there. I thought about this recently because I was. I go to this little coffee shop in my nearby. hometown, upstate, and there's always. these two old guys who are in the corner. They're there every time I go there, and they're always having an argument. about not an argument,

a long discussion about movies. They're movie junkies, they have encyclopedic knowledge, and I eavesdrop on them all the time. And it I realize that there are. there's something really lovely there, which is that. they have clearly a huge part of their identity. is about the enjoyment and appreciation of that. particular art form. And. I would. imagine that if one of those guys was a. Trump or MAGA type and the other was a die.

hard liberal, it wouldn't matter. because they had found this area. that was more important to their identity. and that where they could find. common ground, where they could find each other, find joy in each other's company. And it's. those kinds of spaces. that I feel have been eroded. I use the movie example. for a reason, which was for the longest time. in many cultures around the world, the movies occupy. this huge position in people the way people. relate it to the world. Yeah, they saw,

you know, you got people talking. You grew up in New York. in the thirties and forties. They would see a movie every day. and they would that's what they would talk. about on the playground. Yeah, that's what they would, you know. And, you know, sports functioned in that way. And I. sometimes think that what we need actually. weirdly, is more sports, not less sports, because sports are one of the few things. that can. occupy a big space and bring people together. And you can have a long conversation. with someone who. was in politics, never come up. You know, I may even. my parents would be good examples.

My, you know, white father, black mother. A lot of people looked at him and said, hey, you know, you guys are so different. They and they that's. not how they organized their life. They said they thought. they were exactly the same, too committed Christians who, you know, their fathers read the same books. I think that's the issues. It's just not good to be. Spend all your time wallowing in. political arguments. But I also I also think is this I think, you know,

I remember. a friend of mine describing. he worked as a computer programmer. And I remember one day he was. he was explaining the concept. of the second system effect. The second system effect is what they teach. programmers and coders about. when when working on a program. and then moving it to the next version. And they go, You always have to consider. the things that might happen. that you don't know. might happen because you've. now changed the program over. Yeah, yeah, because you always think. of what you're updating. You always think of what you're improving, but you seldom think of what.

that could cause as a knock on effects. What you didn't want an unintended consequence. And oftentimes that's what happens, right? You you'll see it on your phone all the time. They'll they'll go new software. and then very quickly afterwards, they'll be like. new software on top of the new software. Because we just realized. that what the new software did was. it made the keyboard unusable. When you were sending a. text to certain people in a group chat. Yeah, that's the second system effect, right? And that gave me a whole new way. to think about life, because now I will go, sometimes we make a change. That is oftentimes an improvement, by the way,

but we don't think of what. the possible second system effect. could be, like streaming and the proliferation. of TV shows and like, you know, like on. demand, you. can watch Breaking Bad. when you want to watch Breaking Bad. And have you watched Game of Thrones? I'll watch it when I went, you know what I mean? It's given you so much choice. But what a lot of people don't realize. is it's robbed us of communal. consumption. But then what? Have we all seen the debates? I saw the debates.

I saw the debate. Did you see the debates. and so unfortunately now. I don't. think it's politics so much as it's live. Live is the only thing. that still exists in society. that forces us to always like. to experience it at the same time. And so it's not sports and it's not politics. It's just these. are the final vestiges of live television, the debates, our lives. The election is like Olympics, know the Trump assassination is like. the Olympics are like the Super Bowl is live.

But I think what it's done. is it's robbed. us of shared reality is what I think. You know, I used to watch the same. TV shows as my parents, not because I wanted to, but because I had to. And and inversely, they had to watch. the same shows I watched. So sometimes my mom. would be watching the cartoons. or the sitcoms that I was watching. before we got to the news. or like like a like a murder movie. documentary or whatever thing. But we had a TV and it played in linear time.

So we just had to do it together. And I. actually think that's. one of the things I feel like. we're experiencing in. society is like less life. Yeah, I'm so I realize now. when I'm outside of life, like many people, I'm lost. Yeah. I mean, I watched Perfect couple. Yeah. Why did I watch Perfect Couple on Netflix? I'm just like, you never getting. we got like six, six, five episodes in. I'm like, I cannot believe that I have just devoted.

Now it's time for F one Love. a segment where I get to talk all things F1. and Y. You should be excited for the F1 Las Vegas GP. So if you know anything about me, you know. I love a few things in my life. I love video games, I love tech, I love traveling, I love copious amounts of ice cream. And there are few things I love more.

than Formula One. I've been watching Formula One. my entire life. I started watching it with my dad. I think I've told you this, but. yeah, it's just. it is one of the most exciting, crazy. anything can happen sports in the world. And as I've grown, I've grown to appreciate it. more because, you know, F1 athletes apparently. are the fittest athletes in the world. They've got some of the strongest necks, which I know is a weird thing. to think is cool, but I do. because apparently their necks can sustain. like three, four or five G,

which is pretty insane. if you know what a neck can usually handle. But anyway, I'm really excited. because Formula One used. to only be in Europe and now. one of the most exciting races of the season. is in Las Vegas. Formula One has two kinds of races. You've got. the races that are on tracks, and so those ones. are really fun and fantastic. But then every now and again you'll have a race. that's on the streets of the city that it's in.

And the F1 race in Las Vegas is one of those. because of out on the strip. racing around, I'm talking hundreds. and hundreds of miles per hour. The stuff you wish you could do, they do it for real. and Vegas is the best place for it. You get to go out, you get to see. the drivers over the weekend. You get to hear the cars. And if you've never had. an F1 car. like you haven't lived, it literally. sounds like the end. and the beginning of the world. At the same time. If you get a chance, try and go through the pit lanes. If you have that. opportunity, it's amazing. You get to see the cars up close,

you get to see the technology, you get to see like even the tires. The tires are so impressive. But if you don't get the backstage X. but just go to the race, wear a hat, cheer for a team, see people drive cause. the way they're supposed to be driven. And then think to yourself, I could do that at home, but do not do it at home. That was F1 Love. brought to you by Las Vegas. hosting the upcoming F1 race November 21 to 23. Tickets are available now by visiting. F1 Las Vegas dot com slash tickets.

There's got to be one chapter in this book. that you. that you enjoyed writing the most. Thank you so easy. Yeah you have like a guilty joy. when it comes to certain topics. something I know. about you you have like a. you have like a giggle in you, you have like a mischievous. feeling and you're like, ooh, I love that I'm getting into this like that. So what's like the most. Gladwell chapter in this book? Well, it's the Harvard chapter. The Harvard chapter of the admissions. Yeah. Okay. Let's talk through that. It's all about this strange fact that. there is no university in the United States.

that has more Division one varsity sports. than Harvard. So everyone thinks that the sports obsessed. schools are like in the South. They're. the most sports obsessed school is Harvard. Now, only that. they're so obsessed with that they. if you're an athlete, they have to. The front door is for smart kids who compete. And it's really hard to get in the front door. They've a back door. for athletes and rich people. Yeah, of course. And the back door is way easier to get in. The simplest way to get into Harvard.

is to be a good athlete, not to be a good student. So the question is, why would they care. so much about sports that they would. like create a special back door. for them and also play so many? And I think the answer is, is. is in the kind of sports they're playing. So what sports are, if they have all these. rowing rowing got in middle. way are light. heavyweight and lightweight rowing. and each team is like, what is the 25 forgotten? Some incredible number. Fencing, fencing, sailing.

I don't know. But sailing. Sailing. Tennis. Tennis. Interesting tennis. Now, rugby de rugby sooner. You guys are Africans, particularly you, you come. you guys have serious rugby playing there. Understand it in the American context. no. Yes. Rugby's a very different animal. Not not playing rugby and you know. Yes, right, right. Field hockey, squash. You can see where I'm good. Yeah.

So they reserve. Yeah. You add up all those numbers. Men and women. Yeah. Right. Coaches, kids sitting on the bench, you get all those numbers up. and you see that they have reserved. an entire huge pool of admission slots. for white people with enough money. to be good at white people. Sports. Yeah, it's the whole thing. is, like, so hilariously obvious. And like, they're pretending. for years they've been pretending. no, no. We we believe the athlete brings. something special to the camp. bullshit. Like you do.

I do. I do thing with tennis. In order to play Division. one tennis in this country, you must have played junior tennis. You got to play junior tennis. Your parents have to. I did the math. Had to spend. at a minimum $50,000 a year on your. on your game. and probably north of a hundred grant. when you add up all the things. So basically what. Harvard is saying is. we've got. whatever it is, 12 spots on our tennis team, which we are reserving for people. who have parents capable of spending $100,000. a year on their games, like it's like I mean,

if you don't do this, if you have an elite school. that just takes the smartest kids, what that means is your school's. going to culture is going to turn over. with each new wave of smart immigrants. that come. So you're going to be. you're going to be all Jewish in the fifties. and you're going to be all Korean. yeah. And you're going to be all Nigerian. in like ten years. I don't think that's a bad thing, but. I think it's an amazing thing. Why would like. but but you can't. be concealed if your conception.

of what your school is, is a place. where you have lots of preppy kids in blazers. Yeah. You can't play that game. Yeah. Because you're going to wake up one day and you. to have a lot of Igbo shouting about voices. running around your campus like. And that's unthinkable. You know, it's funny that you say that. because I, I've noticed that in traveling the world, there are some cities in the world. that have made it so that. the area like like certain areas. are sort of dictated by who can just afford.

to buy there. Right. So like there'll be parts of London, for instance, where I went like 20 years ago. and then it was like. like a certain group of people. and then all of a sudden it was. and then it would like. be Russian and then it would. be this and there would be that. And I was just like, wow, this whole area switched up. because the money is something. that can shift to people and to cultures. Yeah, but now. growing and sailing and that doesn't change. Does not change. You know what I mean? Let me let me ask you a question. like in the book, there are many moments.

where you talk about like. it's not necessarily the tipping point, but it's like. some of the some of the larger. things that made something happen. Like, for instance, you talk about Will. and Grace, you know, and you go, this is like the show that that changes. people's perspectives on gay. people in America, etc.. You know, then some people will go like, but what about Ellen? Ellen was on before that. And in the in the opioid. section, you know, when you talking. about the Sackler family, you're like, this is, you know, the. the story they told in the passive voice. when the. defending themselves and you.

and you tell the story. where some people. might read it and go like, but I actually think the issue. is the doctor's like, how do you choose to hone in or where do. you think you've. actually found the real live level. that that has moved society? You're shifting. in a certain direction versus others. So the one voice I still have on this one. that was really interesting. So there's a really. brilliant woman whose work I, I read a love by the name Bonnie Dow, who does this kind of meta. analysis of television shows and their.

and their importance. And she looked at the way, including in Ellen, the way that television had described. and discussed gay relationships. And she said. that up until Will and Grace, every time gay. people were talked about, even if they were talked. about on television in a positive way, a series of rules were in place. The the emphasis on the show was always. about how straight people reacted to. the gay person,

not on the gay person themselves. The second thing. was that the gay person's. gayness was always a problem. that had to be solved. and the third thing was that the gay. person was always in isolation. So she looks at Ellen. She says, Ellen, Yes. Had a gay character first, openly. gay character on network television. But those three rules were still in effect. the whole. when Ellen comes out in that pivotal sitcom. show from whenever it was, all the rules are in effect. Her gayness is a problem. her friends have to solve. The whole show's about her. straight friends dealing with the fact.

that Ellen is like, complicate their lives. and she has no gay community on the show. It's just her. will and Grace comes along. and breaks all three rules. for the first time on television. Will's got a community. It's got Jack, right? And the whole, like. his gayness is not a problem. To be solved is never there. Never is never even a problem. It's just a fact, right? And the show is not about. straight people reacting to Will. It's about Will and Grace. together, reacting normally to.

And that makes that show revolutionary. This is and I. that argument to me is so. and if you. if all you do is watch will and Grace. without the benefit of. that kind of analysis, you miss it. Yeah. And it was an. incredible book that was written. about the way Hollywood treated homosexuality, pointing out that look at all. the movies. in which gay people appear from the sixties. through the end of the nineties. And this guy just counts up. what happens to the character, the gay character.

And like. in 60% of the cases, the gay character dies. in 10%, they commit suicide in 10%, they die of a drug overdose. like Hollywood just killed them off. rights like that's what they did. And you are allowed to feel sympathy. because but they were always. it was always this dreadful burden. Right. And will and Grace, it's not a burden. It's just like. he's just. he's just happens to be part of their lives. This is part of and that is so. like I feel like it is no coincidence.

That's right around the time. when the country wakes up one day. after flipping out about gay marriage, wakes up one day and just doesn't. even say I love gay marriage, just shrugs and says and says, Are we really going to fight about this? And it just goes away. So it's actually it's actually funny, you know, when when I was reading that chapter. and when I was. reading through. some of the chapters about. like all the stories that you talk about, you know, the story. that is over every other story. that we're telling ourselves. I mean, if you've watched it, there's a there's an animated movie.

I think it's some Mitchells versus. the machines, I think it's called. And it's a story of this family. that goes up against. like machines taking over the world. And one day I was having a. conversation with some a group of friends. and someone said to me, like, I hated that movie. It was like, Really? It was a great movie. They like, that was great. But I didn't like that. At the end, we learned that. the main protagonist was a gay character. I was like, Why not? And they were like, Why didn't we know from the beginning? I feel like you just tried to stick it in. And I was like, Are you pro?

And she's like, No, I'm pro. I'm pro-gay rights. And that's why I feel like. it should have been. And then I said, I think. that's been the problem with a lot. of programing, actually. Is that. because Hollywood. as a whole, and obviously. I'm using a big umbrella here, but because of Hollywood as a whole, people forget is a business. They make these like fake stories and movies. that are artificially trying to jump on trends. that are not trends. Do you not do you get them saying so? They'll be like, wow,

Gay people are becoming very in society. We need to make a gay show. And yet what does a gay show. and the like a show where a person uses. their gayness. to make sure that the. community center doesn't get shut down. and said, Guys, that's not a show. That's not a thing. Gay people are not using their gayness to. get a I'm saying, yeah. And I actually think that becomes. part of the problem is like now. we are not witnessing people as human beings. The story is about. you are black. and so now because of your blackness,

you must make the black black. Gary Black was like, no, and just make a story. And to your point, Will. and Grace is like, Yeah, it's cool. And Jack. just they were gay, but the story wasn't like, what gay things gays. them today was like, No, it's just a story, know? And you got to know them as human beings. And the show. is interesting. because it puts. a finger on. the issue fundamentally was not that. by the early. 21st century, most Americans thought that. there was something. pathological about being gay.

or they had some revulsion. It no, it was quite specific. It was. they did not believe that gay people. were capable of the same. kind of relationships as straight. It was that specific. It was about relationships. And that's why marriage is being denied. And that show is just about a is about is. successful relationship involving a and. in the previous sort of get your point Trevor. the prettiness assumed the problem was specific. to something about the gay person.

Yeah and the way they practiced like. no no it was just. it was a separate thing about. could they participate in something that. straight people have been participating. in for thousands and thousands of years. and just getting people to say, yeah, they can participate. That's all we needed. Yeah, yeah. You didn't need to. win the bigger battle, right? I've seen a few times. How so? Like for me, this is, this is. purely anecdotal, but in New York. I play, I play football, I play soccer.

with a bunch of guys. from all over the world, literally all over the world, all different walks of life, you know, like. we have. all of Africa on the team. and then we have Europe, and then we have Eastern Europe, and then we have like sometimes. we have like Australia and Asia. and then America obviously. But it'll be a collection. 22 guys from everywhere coming together. And one of the. fascinating things I've noticed is. we have built. our relationships and our friendships. and our perceptions of each other.

and each other's peoples. without ever speaking about them. Does that make sense? Yeah. When we come to the game, we play the game. I judge the other people. by how they play the game. and they judge me by how I play the game badly. Well, on a day terribly, but that's how we know each other. So yeah, like Latif, why don't you do this? You always do this. Jo Jo, I doing this. I know zero technique. You have zero technique. Why are you doing this? It's like, Shut up, Jo. And then, like, what I what I realized the one day was almost.

magical is like. everyone on that team has a human. has a human example. of somebody from another country. So if you say to them, do you? What are you Ugandans? They go like, Man, I know this guy. Joe is from Uganda. And it's like, what are you getting? Then he's just like, you know them. You know him as a human being. Does that make sense? Does that make sense? And I think sometimes, like in these stories, we forget that we don't. we don't get to know people as human beings. because we don't see them. doing human being things. And then we give ourselves like the full. we give like. I mean, when I say ourselves,

I mean like, let's say the dominant group, you get to exist in your fullness. Yeah. And then everyone who's on. the margins has to exist only in one area. It's like, All right, gay people, you get a day of pride. and then the rest of it is. is for straight people. And even then we're. going to be like, why do you get a day. and be like, Well, every day's. a straight pride, you know, every day is like chinos. and terrible shirts. It's like it's also the soccer thing. That's great because the key. to getting people. to making that magic happen. is has everyone gave everyone a job to do?

You're busy. Yeah, that's why it works. Yeah, right. That's the kind of like I always this. the business thing. If you're all focused on the game, you're exhausted, you're running up and down. Who is time for all the non. Don't go anywhere because we got more. What now? After this. And Malcolm I'm curious you say you went back. Red tipping point and you're like.

this is appalling right? I'm interested. about why. it wasn't just an amendment. because most people would do like there's. a revised edition and you write a chapter. summary. Why is it revisiting? And it's a whole book Because I'm crazy, okay? Because I don't have enough to do. because I have. Because having two kids. apparently is just really easy. And I do you know, I have I got time. living in a men's perspective on kids. And then Malcolm's like,

Yeah, it just feels like you have more time. And Christian was like, There's no time. Like Life is Over. Another book now I have. I've worked it out that I have. I have 45 minutes to myself a day. between ten and 1045. That's my time. Okay? And you write, you probably got some like. and you write your book. I know. I don't know, I, I just thought it would be fun. I actually had more. I've been enjoying. myself tremendously over the last.

I've had it. ever since I started podcasting stuff. It's loosened me up about. I'm not I'm lot less precious about stuff. I do and. I'm doing different kinds of stories and. I am. So I, I my position now is why not? Yeah. And why not do something? It sounds like it to be interesting. Who knows what'll happen? The turning point for me was. when I started the podcast and I started. weird show like shows. Yeah, cranky kind of,

you know, going after golfers or whatever. And I was like, that was really fun. Like, I didn't realize that kind of thing. And then I did that audiobook. with Paul Simon, with my friend Bruce, which, you know, I don't really know. that much about music. I know I like Paul Simon, and we just. sat down with him and it was just so. hours and hours of interviews with him. And it was it literally changed my life. I just realized, wow, I thought I was in this. for the writing. I'm not I'm in this.

because I like talking to people. I like interviewing. That's what I like to write. And that when I realized I was like, this clarifies. everything I be. obsessing about the what? You know, my what a. how I'm going to make a story out of this. I should be obsessing about. the interview. Yeah, the conversation. And so I did it again this summer. with this incredible woman. And I met with her like eight times. And she's someone who is deals with trauma.

and mixed emotions. She was involved with a guy on death row. and she fails to keep. him, to save him and he gets killed. by the state. Yeah. And I wanted to know what was going through. her head when he died. So what I want to know and I decided. I was going take the long path. We took 6 hours, whatever it was, to get there. Wow. And then we kind of got there, and I was. completely overwhelmed. I couldn't stop crying. I just was it was so. And then I interviewed,

I went back and I interviewed the. it was so unprofessional. I interviewed the lawyer, the guy's lawyer, and I had him tell the same story. And I couldn't stop crying. I just had to end the interview. I said, sorry, I'm sorry, sir. I can't. I can't. It's just But it was because. I just made that in that investment. And and I had just sat and listened. Right. That's a is at the a grand old age of 61. I realized that's what I want to do. Right.

That's. and there's a lot of that in this book. is that a lot of that is just sitting. and listening to people like. and kind of trying to make sense of them. What I'm hearing you say is something. that I feel like we could all work. on a little bit more, and that is. being a little less serious. about how we see ourselves in the world. You know, because I think of. the different parts, the different universes. that Malcolm Gladwell could have been in, you could have been someone that got. more serious and and more prescriptive.

And, you know, you could have written a book about it. And now let me tell you, it's 20000 hours and. here's what else you got to do. It's not just the windows. It's the doors and the floors. and the sidewalks. And, you know, you know, you really. and I think. there are people. who do that. because it becomes, again, going back, it becomes their identity. So they're like, I've achieved success in this. I must hold on to it. and I need to do more of it. And the second part of it is we forget. to have like fun. We forget the fun side of life, we forget the enjoyment, we forget.

the people are very like serious about things. I even noticed I was falling into. It's like if you asked me a question, I would give you, like the. serious answer first. But I'm not that person actually, you know, And I've noticed that. starting in America, to be honest. and like South Africa is very far behind, thank God. But like, when I'm in South Africa, I realize I'm like, I'm. taking this far too seriously. I'm taking all of it too seriously. Do you know I tell you why South Africa story. And it's very funny. Yeah, for sure. I know for the president, South Africa,

his name is Ram Ramaphosa. Ramaphosa, Cyril Ramaphosa. So I'm at this conference in South. I've actually just for I texted you. because I was walking around. Cape Town and I was like, white people know the real estate. And then. Trevor's like, Yes, they do. So I go to this conference. and Ramaphosa speaking, gets up on the stage. He's like, And the lights go out by the powers. I was going off and yes, in Cape Town. and the silence and then you hear. a poster saying, It's all my fault,

and the whole room just starts laughing. I was like, How many leaders of major countries. in the world would make a point, would make a self-deprecating joke. at that moment. because been a huge political opening. for a huge issue. And so what does he do? It makes and it's like it was hilarious. It's hilarious. I was like, this is off topic. But I was chatting. those people at this conference. and I'm talking about I was like, you know, having a lot of people. and leaving South Africa. Aren't you worried? It's because it's not the best thing. It's like. the only people left in South Africa now.

are the people who want to be here. Yeah, I thought that was fantastic and like, totally changed my perception of it's like, That's right. Those are the ones who are tough. enough and interested and committed and like. and his point was like, let them go there. You know, we're here. It's beautiful. Malcolm, if you want to read. another book, I'll put blinkers on. because Blink is one of my favorites. Outliers, This 10000 hours rule. As a parent, I know a lot of people who've. been parents for more than 10000 hours.

any better. They are terrible, terrible memories. Rotten kids. Look at the world we live in. So many broken people need therapy. I think we need to go back. Yeah. Look at the time. Now. Now, you're absolutely right. I you know, the. if it's due to this, I've started to do this now. And so terrible is I now. with no standing whatsoever. other than three years. as a parent, I'm just openly critiquing. people's parenting. Yeah, I'm very judge.

Judging is fun. Such a fun. I have to stop myself you to it. But you see layers. this it. You've got to stop it. I'm vertigo It makes it worse. yeah? Yeah. Have you have you found that. your children have changed? How you even look at data. or storytelling or stories? There's zero connection between. any intellectual idea. I've ever held and my parenting. I've. This is another thing that's not. as I'm not saying your parenting. I mean, more them being in your life.

And like, for instance, I'm watching your face. while you speak about them. every mention of them, even the idea of them, your face lights up in a different way. Yeah, you laugh, you giggle, you. there's a. there's a different side of you that comes out. So I'm asking. how have they affected the way you see. data or stories or the world. impact on your approach? You what? Yeah, Yeah. Because I always ask women this question, so I like that Trevor Trevor's asking a man. Yeah, well, I always hope that they're free content. I find them just endlessly hilarious.

and it makes it very difficult for me. to take other things as seriously. there you go. So this is part of like, I just. They just become the center of your universe. and like, everything else. sort of fades away in importance. Any disappointment I have. is irrelevant to them. It's just so liberating. Like, you know, they just, you know, my fear or this morning. just wanted to, like, draw. She's making a picture. for she has a crush. on the girlfriend of the nanny. It's the most hilarious thing I've ever seen. And she was making a picture for them.

shoot. That's like that's what she's, you know, and. everything else kind of. But it has. But I do understand. You do understand how powerless. Yeah, you are. It's. It's like it's you just. It's this surrender. You just surrender. But our kids are so different. My four year old. threw the most explosive. tantrum in the grove the other day, and the old man sitting next. to us switched off his Harrogate. Wow. Wow. He switched off and I was like, That's judging my parenting. That's sad.

But he's great. He's great, but he has this moments of like, yeah, he becomes. really surprised spirits and usually it's yeah, that's a good sign. But then it was also I have to surrender. so you know that gentle. parenting bullshit just ride the wave. and it will end. Yeah. You know, you know what? In a few years, maybe in a decade, we'll get to relook at our parenting today. and we'll be like, maybe we could have been a little harsher. Maybe we could have. Yeah, I have a theory. Cheryl wants to bring about being. normally obsessed with about being on. Let me be on the record.

That'd be on the record. Before we wrap this up. Let me be on the record. and say I do not believe that children. I don't believe that parents. should ever hit their kids, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever. However, I do think other people. should be allowed to hit your kids. because. then we've created it's a community thing. And it's like parents can signal. to other people. that they need their kid disciplined. Then there's no conflict in your child's. mind between love and discipline. Let's think we don't have to solve it. Now.

You go do the research. you think about as a parent, I'm going to go formulate the idea. and then we'll come back. I'm totally down. Well, back to the village. I wish someone else would come on. What I'm saying. No. You could be helping each other 100%. If I see you across. the room at some restaurant, any time you signal me from afar, I will come over and I will do that. Malcolm, I know you've got to go now. I want to say thank you, man. Thank you for spending the time with us. It's really fun. Thank you for joining us. Thank you. Thank you, Malcolm. Great. That was lovely. I want to see pictures now.

I'll show you a picture. I'll get my phone. What now with Trevor Noah. is produced by Spotify Studios. in partnership with Day Zero Productions. The show is executive produced by Trevor. Noah, Seema Yasmin and Jodi Avigan. Our senior producer is Jess Hackel. Claire Slaughter is our producer. Music. Mixing and Mastering by Hannah Brown. Thank you so much for listening. Join me next Thursday for another episode. of What Now.

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