The Trad Wife Paradox with Anne Helen Petersen! - What Now? with Trevor Noah Podcast

My mom is the antithesis of tread. anything. I remember one day I said to. my mom, "Can we get some KFC?" And then. my mom was like, "We can't afford KFC.". Then my mom said, "You know what, honey? I'm going to make you KFC." And I was. like, "What? You can make KFC?" She's. like, "I can make KFC." I was like, "That's not possible." I was like, "If. if people could make KFC, everyone would. make KFC. You're telling me KFC doesn't only come. from the Colonel? How do you have the. secret?" And we went into the kitchen. and then she made and then she fried it. And then we there and I was like, "Wow,

my mom made KFC." And I'll never and. I'll never forget I ate it. And then I I. looked at her and I was like, "This [ __ ]. is not KFC.". Some of my issues that I deal with in. therapy are probably because of that. moment. You know, when they say you like. you lose trust in your parents. I looked. at this woman and I was like. I was like, "Why would you lie to me? Why would you say you can make KFC when. you can't make KFC?" And then she looked. at me and then like and then I started. doubting myself cuz I was like why would. you think your mother can make KFC? If.

she could make KFC, she would have. opened KFC. This is What Now with Trevor Noah. [Music]. >> All right, this is going to be a fun. one. I know. >> this is this is one of those what I call. like landmine conversations. >> Yes. >> Because. everything you say can and will be used.

against you in a court of law. But it's. but it's probably it's probably my. favorite type of conversation to have. like my my favorite type of topic. because when you when you say tradife so. I've been saying that to everyone. I you. know my friends will be like oh what are. you doing on the podcast? I say we're. going to be talking about trades. Some. people don't know what it is at all. And. then I have to explain it. I go trad. traditional wife. And then as soon as I. describe the videos, everyone knows what. I'm talking about. I say it's, you know, these women who are they're dressed in.

like really old school style or dressed. up vibes, but then they're cooking. They're preparing like everything from. scratch. And then everyone's like, "Oh. yeah," and then they start listing off. their favorite ones. And uh yeah, I'm. I'm I'm excited to talk about it because. uh I don't know what you're going to. say. Oh, you you don't even have a. feeling about where I. >> No, I No, I'll be honest with you. I. don't I don't because this is one of. those topics where you could go either. way. >> I know. I'm nervous because I I'm afraid. to offend people, which I never am like. in life. That's why I couldn't be a trad.

cuz I'm rude. >> Oh, fantastic. >> Yeah. I'm I don't want any of my friends. who are tradish. to be upset with me. >> Wait, so do you think some of the people. in your life are trades? No, but are they actually tread wives or. do you think they have traits that you. would associate with a tread wives? >> I think they have a lot of the traits. >> I think they are living Oh my god, you. already get me in trouble cuz now my. friend. >> Oh, no. I just want to know. No. Okay, so I I want to know how many of those. traits you see in people before you say.

they are or are not a tread. >> I know. I'm Trevor. Can you see how. careful? >> I can see I've never seen you like this, by the way. >> I know. That's why I'm like it's I. wanted to do the conversation, but I've. been like, "Oh god, I don't want to.". Okay. So, I think there are the traits. Yeah. But they wouldn't necessarily. embrace the label and then because, you. know, I grew up very churchy and very. Christian. I know people who are like. >> straight up man is the head of the. household. I'm here to honor him and. honor God and raise my children. >> That all sounds good to me. Keep going.

Keep going. >> Raise my children. >> This is fantastic. >> They call their husband like my mom. actually used to call my dad my lord and. master to piss off my grandmother. That's a family fact about you. >> To piss off your your I mean. >> Yeah. Yeah. ironically, but like you. know I I especially being like of. African descent, even the women who are. not who have jobs and all of that embody. the tradife thing. You know, they'll be. like my husband is the head of the. household. That's the world I come from. >> Okay. >> Um and I don't want to offend those. women cuz I think there's a way we can. speak about them and say they don't have.

autonomy and they're victims or they're. v like we either make them victims or. villains and I think it's a bit more. complicated. And then I have my own. personal view on it, how I've chosen to. live. How how far do you think you are. away from tread wife or how close do you. think you are to trade wife? >> You know what? It's so funny. I have a. friend who is like the opposite of a. trad wife. So she. >> What does What does that mean? >> She's not traditional and she's not a. wife. >> But then how are you a trad wife? >> Well, she's like she she doesn't even. have any of the labels. Like she she.

she's child-free. She's child free by. choice. >> Okay. >> She speaks her mind and she's she comes. from a long line of matriarchs. She came. around this is when I was pregnant with. Obie. She came by the apartment and I. was doing something and I did something. for Louis and she was like, "So, is this. how you keep a man?" And I was like, "What are you talking about?" She was. like, "You're being so nice and girly.". And I'm like, "I'm not nice to him cuz I. think I'm a mean wife, right?" And she. was like, "No, you're being I've never. seen this side of you." So, it was it. was and I think about that a lot because. >> what if what if you're secretly a tread.

wife and you don't know it. >> I don't cook. So, I think that takes me. out of the equation. >> It is one of the biggest factors. And. it's not just cooking. It's cooking like. everything from scratch. Like from. scratch. Scratch. >> Yeah. Obie says to me, "Mommy, what are. we going to order tonight?". >> And then he goes, "Delivery." And my mom. is like, "You have ruined this child.". So like I don't cook cuz I find it very. laborious. >> Yes. >> And obviously I work, but ironically a. lot of wives are doing work by that. Like I work outside of the home.

>> You're right. Right. >> But I think they're actually doing work. inside the home cuz they monetize it by. putting on Instagram. So a lot of. contradictions. >> That's why I'm excited to have the. conversation because like you know if. you look at it as as a topic in. isolation. It's it seems like a like a. really small one. It's just like oh what. is a trad wife? >> Why is this thing blowing up everywhere? Why do people want to be a trad wife or. why do people idolize. >> or hate tradives? >> Yeah. >> And then it gets into the larger topics. of like what does this say about us as a. society as as a whole? Um and our guest.

today is the perfect person to to have. this conversation with, right? Because. um an I mean you know her writing. >> Yeah. I'm a fan I'm a fan of her. newsletter. >> Yeah. No, she she's fantastic. So Ann. Helen Peterson is a um she's an author. She is a writer who you know she has. Substacks. She wrote for BuzzFeed. She. also writes for L magazine. She's got. these fantastic articles that cover. everything from politics to celebrity. culture, gossip, everything we deal with. in the world essentially that's. interesting she looks at. and she's been.

spending a ton of time on the tread wife. movement. So, it's not just her. experience, but like her insight into. this world is is is really really. fascinating. And actually, maybe from. your side, you can help me understand. this. Like, how far would you say a trad. wife is from what people would quote. unquote call a regular wife? And I'm I'm. I have all the quotes up for this entire. episode for anybody who's going to come. after me. Everything is quotes from now. on. All right. Nothing I say is is my.

voice or my my But yeah. Um Ann, welcome. to the podcast. What would you say is. like a like a a trad wife versus a. regular wife? >> Yeah. You know, well, first of all, I'm. glad that we're coming into this with. the ambivalence that we have, right? Like there is so much contradiction. There is so much complexity. And I think. I often have conversations with people. who are like, "Oh, obviously these women. are evil, right? or like they're the the. the you know or they're ideal, right? So.

there's just not a lot of in between. >> So the way I think of it is there's. actually like these bigger buckets of. wives that we can think about. Buckets. of treadwives. There are I think the. like the OGs which are absolutely women. who are deeply deeply invested in either. evangelical Christianity and its vision. specifically of the the future of. America. Uh-huh. >> And I would also put a little caveat on. there and say like white evangelical. Christianity. >> and.

>> and there some Mormons are kind of in. that bucket. So a a very famous trod. wife who has never ever claimed the the. moniker tread wife is Ballerina Farm who. has been in the news a lot lately. Ballerina Farm is the moniker the handle. for an Instagram account that is run by. this woman named Hannah. She is married. She was a ballerina. Thus the ballerina. part, but she was married to or she is. married to the son of the founder of.

JetBlue Airlines. >> Oh. >> And they're Mormon and they have, I. believe, eight kids. She also is a. pageant queen and recently competed in. >> it's like Mrs. America when they're. married. Mrs. America uh very shortly. after giving birth to her most recent. kid. But so she like the aesthetic there. is very aspirational. >> That's so so ballerina farm. So I've. gone I've gone on a deep dive in this. like my Instagram algorithm is trash.

now. My Tik Tok algorith I just need to. start brand new accounts just so you. know. >> because everything that I've now like. researched for this conversation has led. me down a deep now. All my all my. explore page is is like random white. women in the middle of nowhere milking a. cow for their children's breakfast. cereal. >> or like coming to like they're putting. together like their homeschool. >> elements for like 10 kids.

>> Yes. >> And then there are people who just want. to live like a 50s housewife. >> and that is different right like they do. not have the religious component. They. do not see this as God's plan for the. world. they are not necessarily invested. in the more like white supremacy. components of this, but they would like. to spend all of their time doing things. in the domestic sphere. So that includes. homesteading, right? And like the the. aesthetic of homesteading that's very. popular. >> That includes not working for pay, >> right? Um, and I think that that is the.

part that people are actually attracted. to who. somehow who find themselves fascinated. by these accounts and find themselves. continually going back or like why do I. keep following Ballerina Farm if her. life is so distant from mine? >> Because I think there is some sort of. fantasy about, >> well, what if I didn't have to do all of. the things all of the time? what if I. got to focus on these parts of being a. mother, of being a partner, of being a.

person in the world that felt fulfilling. to me. So, that's that's a different. sort though. And also like the. stay-at-home girlfriends which are. oftentimes linked into or put into this. bucket. Yeah. >> People who like they tape for Tik Tok. especially like. here is my life as a stay-at-home. girlfriend and it's like making chia. >> smoothies and like doing Pilates and. they're not even married. Like a tad. wife would die if they were associated.

with these stay-at-home girlfriends. Like those women are living in sin. like. they are not they do not belong in the. same. >> Yeah. >> hemisphere. Yeah. >> I So, okay. So, I'll I'll be honest. I've been on a I've been on a roller. coaster of emotions here digging into. the world of I'm going to call it. traism. You have because like when I. when I first watched the videos I my. first thought was this is evil in some. way, shape or form. And the reason I. thought that is is because of I guess. like my indoctrination like what I've.

seen in movies and things. So, it's. these videos, you know, it's a static. shot. It's a woman who's dressed. impeccably, but like rarely made up in a. kitchen. It has a stepwood stepford. wives vibe to it, you know? So, it's. like every morning. >> I try to make cereal for my children, >> granola made from scratch. I pick the. almonds from the soil. And you watch. this and you're like, "Oh, this is evil. This is the devil. This is But then when. I when I like, you know, like ballerina. farms and and I watched I watched a few.

more videos. I watched a few more. videos. Then I was like, hm, do I hate. this idea? And I I I I'll tell you I'll. tell you where I'm coming from cuz I see. your your side already, Cristiana. I'm. not saying do I hate this idea or do I. like it as a man. I'm not saying that. What what I mean is there were there was. something strangely. liberating in the idea of somebody just. living a simple life. >> where there are predetermined outcomes. or or expectations for what you need. because I don't know I like I I I have.

this feeling often times in society. where I go you know in America I feel it. more than most countries. >> but I I don't know about you I hate the. fact that we don't know how much we're. supposed to do and sort of what we're. supposed to do. >> You mean the rat race? Yes, it's the. right race. How much money do we need? >> Okay. How much success do you need? When. is it done? When is it achieved? When is. it finished? Are you successful? Oh, you. didn't get your masters. Oh, you didn't. get your PhD. Oh, this is the only house. you've stayed in. This is your only car. This is the only vacation. Like, when. does it end? And when I was watching.

these videos, there was a simplistic. completion that that I enjoyed about. them where it was like, all you have to. do. >> is wake up every day. >> All. >> No, no, no. I'm saying this is what I. mean. What I mean is, I'm not saying. it's easy, but it's not infinite. It's. all. >> But it is infinite because there's. always more kids. >> There is. And cuz. >> there isn't always more kids. >> There is. Cuz then you become a trad. >> Yes. >> The labor never stops. You This is the. thing. Okay, now I'm jumping ahead. Now, now I'm revealing myself. Trad wives.

never get to retire. >> That's the thing that breaks my heart. about the role cuz it's a beautiful. role. >> Okay. But your husband who goes off to. work in the world, there's a day he's. going to have his retirement. And the. expectation is you get to play golf. >> You get to see your friends more. Maybe. you're on a board somewhere. A trad wife. is still going to have to have three. meals on the table every day. She's. going to have to look after the. grandchildren. Okay. >> She's going to have to look after. whoever. >> Wait, wait, wait. But if she's looking. after the grandchildren, who's looking. after the children? Maybe. I don't.

understand the. >> children have the Well, >> cuz you guys are clearly on like like. the final stages. You guys are like. spoiler alerting me. I know. I'm on season one of tradife. >> In season six, there's different options. for a trad wife. There is the tradife to. divorce pipeline where you lose because. you can no longer have children or your. husband's left interested. A lot of. tradives, honestly, are starter wives, even in very Christian circles. The man. looks at her and he's like, >> I have nothing to speak to you about. because you're with kids all day and I'm. in the world as an adult. And you know,

adult socialization is important, Trevor. You know, you get to have. certain types of conversations. And this. woman has spent the last 15 to 18 years. raising children. And he feels she. limits her or maybe her body is broken. down because that's what children do to. your body because they're [ __ ] evil. And um. >> 10 children. 10 children. >> 10 children. They've had so many. children. Does something to your body. and they say, >> you know, I I need a new wife or maybe. she dies like, you know what I mean? This is a real life in Africa. You see. it all the time and the woman dies or.

the woman's gone and he's found someone. else. But what this woman has done, which is an incredible thing, take care. of the home for like 18 years, >> you can't put that on your resume. >> So if you go into Amazon warehouses all. over this country, it's full of women. who embodied trad ideals, whether in a. secular or Christian way, and they now. have to fend for themselves, make. minimum wage, they have no retirement, they have no 401ks, and they are like. having to what? So I'm saying this, that's one outcome. >> I'm going to challenge both of you on. this, and this is me playing a little.

bit of devil's advocate. I know I'm the. only guy in the conversation. So, my job. is also to like spice things up, but but. I talk to many men, old men, who will. say the phrase to me all the time. They. be like, "Trevor, let me tell you. something. Happy wife, happy life." You. make sure your wife is happy. And she. says something and you say, "Yes, love. Yes, darling. What else do you need, honey? And your life will be smooth.". And some of those guys, to be honest. with you, are like tread husbandy.

>> Yeah. >> Right. Like the way they live their life. is they go, I wake up, I make sure the. family's up as well, we we have. breakfast, I kiss everybody goodbye, I. go to the office, I work my ass off, you. know, I I come back home and and then I. I smile and I have dinner with everyone. and then I go to bed and I do it again. and they tell me where they want to go. on vacation. They tell me what they want. to eat on Friday night and that's all my. job is is. And I go, isn't that like you. you know what I mean? An after you.

Well, well, first I just want to. differentiate between. stay-at-home mom or stay at home parent. >> and the ideology at work with the the. most. the with a lot of these women, which is. that they they really believe they. really believe. that women should not have power, right? That women should not be educated. >> Like they really believe this, right? >> They don't have that in the posts. Okay. >> It's no that's not as explicit, right? like project 2025.

absolutely on board with that like their. their larger goal is control over. women's lives and their bodies. And so. that's when like when I because I think. sometimes we get into this game of like. if you're a feminist then you shouldn't. critique any other woman's choices. But. these women and I'm talking specifically. about the ones who are very much. invested in this evangelical version of. >> real tread real tread is what you're. saying. Okay.

>> They believe in a larger project in. which all women's rights are subsumed. under the will of men. >> Ah okay. Okay. >> This is where like the ideological. specificity becomes important because. there are some of these women who grow. up in the church and get married or. convert to Christianity. they they. become part of the church at a slightly. later age. Education is frowned upon. So. maybe you go to a little bit of Bible. college, but probably don't. You get. married as soon as possible so that you.

can have sex, right? Because you do not. want to have sex outside of marriage, >> right? >> And then you become pregnant as you. become pregnant as soon as possible. >> And so a lot of these women have. incredibly. little in terms of formal education. And. if they were themselves educated in a. traditional home, they were likely. homeschooled and did not have a great. foundation. I'm not saying homeschooling. creates bad education simply because. it's home homeschooling. A lot of these.

curriculum practiced in these homes is. almost like I've heard wwives who've. left that lifestyle call it a form of. educational abuse, right? Because they. learn so little and it equips them so. poorly. >> So let me let me ask you this then. you, what you've just described to me now. sounds cultish. It sounds oppressive. It. sounds terrible. >> This is not what I see on my feed. Like. my feed, it looks sexy. It looks fun. It. looks um rewarding. It looks engaging. So, >> help me understand this. How did.

something cuz if you if you just sold. that to me now, no one would buy it. >> How why is that trending now? Like why. is that huge on. >> Tik Tok is like now we're talking about. today, you know? This is not like a. Facebook trend. Tik Tok. Do people not know or do they not care? >> I And I I have so many thoughts on this, but as a millennial woman who has a lot.

of friends who have chosen to be. stay-at-home moms who are super. progressive, very educated, >> the workplace is really hard. People are. burnt out. So I I speak to friends and. they're like why why work for 10 men 10. men when I can work for one. you know and I can. >> right well and you're only making enough. to cover childare right so like the the. calculus the calculus is broken so here. you are making barely enough you're. still you're behind you're behind in the.

workplace in part because you know the. pay gap and all of the sorts of like. >> various discrimination that happens in. the workplace but also because you took. maternity leave, which puts you. backwards in the work clock for various. reasons. And I think that like Gen Z, I. mean, Gen Z loves to raz millennials. But I think one of the things they see. when they look at millennials is like, oh, they're trying to have it all. Or. like millennial feminists are trying to. figure out how can I be a great mom, a. great parent, a great partner, and like.

a really like have a career that I like, and it's impossible. So what is your. choice? I think this is where you get. almost like this reactionary move. And I. don't think that if a Gen Z person is. watching this on TikTok, it means that. they necessarily have conservative. politics, right? It's more that the. choices laid out for them seem like they. suck. I mean, I I I get all of So, okay, let. me let me let's take a step back and let. me ask you this then as a question and. like help me understand. Is is being a.

trad wife problematic in and of itself. or is is being a tradife problematic. when you live in a society where. capitalism will def define your endgame. or your outcome on the other side? So, if we lived in a world where you didn't. have to worry about like surviving on. the other side, I is being a trad wife. bad like like you know I I I I read um. you know your writing and one of my. favorite articles of yours was was the. L1 where they asked you to be a trad.

wife for a week and forgive me because I. guess maybe I've never done this. I. couldn't believe that you were like I. can't do it. I was like a week this. doesn't seem difficult for a week. All. you have to do for a week is like serve. someone and just like. >> No, no, no. And just. >> Okay. Well, my editor was like, "Yeah, try it out for a week." I was like, "Oh, yeah. This will be fun." And then as I. sat down to like figure out how to do. it, I was like, first of all, I really. can't lose a week of income. Like,

that's not that's not it's something I'm. willing to do for this. Like, I would. lose money writing this story for El. Magazine. And the other thing is I. talked to my partner. I'm not married, so I'd be a bad tradife in the. beginning, right? Like I'd be a living. in sin partner. And he was like, "This. makes me feel uncomfortable.". >> Huh. >> Right. So that's the other part of the. story is that I think some men don't. want to be served in this way. You know, like I cook a lot of the food, not all.

of it, but I I do some of it. I mean, like a lot of families like we're always. in the struggle to split the mental. load, but I don't know. I just like we. couldn't get on board and it turned out. to be more interesting to write about. like not being able to do it. >> We're going to continue this. conversation right after this short. break. [Music]. Okay? Cuz when I was going through it,

I'm not going to lie, I was like, "This. is a little sexy." It seemed No, I'll. tell you why. It seemed to me like. people were like living out some sort of. fetish vibe. >> Totally. There's an element of that. >> No. So, it felt like it was like. >> I mean, they have like 10 kids, so they. are having sex. >> Exactly. And And it was also the the. >> But they're having sex like we're. talking about like the old f like. they're having sex anytime the man wants. it. And some of this is. >> coerc you're selling this to Trevor. right now. this this we we and you. really.

>> No, no, no. You you actually aren't. And. I'll I'll tell you why on that on that. element why that doesn't that doesn't um. that doesn't appeal to me as much. because I think one of the problems we. have in modern relationships and in. society is this lopsided, you know, appetite for sex. I think I think I. think sex in a relationship works best. when both parties get to want it when. they want it cuz the spark needs to come. from both sides. So I actually don't. like that trad you described. >> Part of why he does that is the. expectation anytime I do want to have.

sex with this woman, she's going to have. sex with. >> No, no, no. I think I think those guys. that's that's why this is interesting. what you're saying is and I think we. need to drill down on this because. >> to your point I think some people see. this as let's say the sexy version where. it's like. >> he tells me what he wants and I do it. >> He says I want your hair like this and I. wear it. And when you're listening to. that, you're like, "Yeah, it's a little. 50 shades. I'm I'm down for this. This. sounds cool." But it sounds voluntary. And now what you're telling me is. >> the real like the real not the gloss,

not the stuff we see online, ironically. >> because they aren't online. >> Is like they're like, "No, you do not. have a right to say no to your man. You. do not you should not tell him you don't. want to do something. You you have no. control over yourself." That's. essentially what you're saying real the. real culture is. >> There's the idea like, "Oh, this is all. a choice, right? and so I should. critique it and it's okay and of course. that's what they're going to show on Tik. Tok and on Instagram. >> Um and of course they're like they see.

this and this is where the contradiction. you know that the you two were talking. about before I came on of like they're. not supposed to work but they're. monetizing their feeds. They see this as. ministry, >> right? They want to sell this vision to. as many people as possible. So to them. it is not at all at odds. >> Yeah. And you know, when you mention. that them seeing it as ministry, I think. it's interesting for me because. my father's a pastor, so I'm in a very. religious bubble. I was talking earlier.

to the guys about the fact I tithed. until very recently. My dad is going to. lose his mind if he. and now I like tithe to causes. And. anyway, the whole thing, but I know that. world of evangelical Christianity and. Pentecostalism and you know, faith. without works is dead. So I can. understand why a woman is like I am. going to evangelize through making sour. dough from scratch. On the other side. because of the life I live now a lot of. the women I'm around are very secular.

and in many ways very progressive. But. then it's also in the world you meet a. woman said yeah I was like a partner at. a law firm and I had my second baby and. I said I'm not doing that anymore. What. do you say to that? Because that's not a. neutral choice but it's a choice she's. had to make for her betterment. And I. think that's my my personal struggle. with it. >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, why do you think. it's everywhere right now? I think that. it it touches on something like. something we're trying to figure out. about the place of feminism, the place.

of like. everything to do with like JD Vance of. it all. Like. >> I mean, I think white liberal feminism. has failed like as an ideological No, as. an idea, they can't even abortions which is like. the which is like a right that people. got like 50 60 like if you go to most. western countries white liberal American. feminism is a failure it hasn't it. hasn't got women maternity leave women. cannot have abortions across this.

country if they want like. >> the pay gap seems to be intensifying. like feminism was supposed to have an. answer to all of these questions and it. it it as an ideological project it. failed like it's not like this cohesive. block whereas if you go to France or the. UK Hey, there is a lot more unity among. the idea of feminism because they've. safeguarded just like basic feminist. rights. Well, well, maybe maybe then. that's that's part of the question or or. like an an interesting aspect of the. puzzle here is,

you know, when you when you're saying an. why is it so popular? You know, obviously I can't speak for any women in. this, but if I if I just try and put. myself in somebody else's shoes, I do. think there's an element of. this, even if it's even if a lot of it. is fake, I think there's an element of. this trad wife movement that's like. celebrating a form of femininity that. has been sort of like lost in the in the. demonized. >> Yeah. In the feminine fight. And then. this is giving people just a little a.

little enclave where they can say. actually I I do want to spend time with. my kids. I do want to I and you know. sometimes this happens in life. Um I. don't know if you've experienced this in. a relationship, in a friendship or even. in a general interaction. Sometimes. sometimes I almost feel like it becomes. easier for people to adopt an extreme. ideology. >> only because they want aspects of it. So. now there's a woman out there who goes, "Look, I I don't not want to work and I. don't want but it's easier for me to say. and be a trad wife because then no one.

can sort of like judge me out of this. cuz I'm not a feminist who's doing it. wrong. I'm just a tradife who's trying.". Do you think it gives women the space to. explore all sides of being a woman or do. you think like you know this this this. modern feminism has become about like no. if you don't do it like this then you. are not. >> an I want to hear from you first. You. know, I don't know if I would I would. frame it in terms of feminism. I would. frame it more in terms of society that. society doesn't give especially American. society does not give a lot of space to. figure out different ways of being a.

woman with safety, right? So, if you're. looking at different ways you can go. through the world, go through society. today, >> and let's say you had something like you. grew up in a precarious situation for. some reason, right? What what looks most. safe to you? Is it going to be, oh, someone else makes all the decisions and. brings in all of the money. >> and navigates the outside world and then. I just get to like make some decisions.

about things that I care about or I'm. going to figure this all out alone with. no social safety net and no economic. safety net. So I think that like that's. if you're looking at the world around. you, it's easy often times, especially. given your situation, to choose. something that seems safe, that seems. like a path forward. And patriarchy feel. can feel very inviting when dressed up. this way. You know, >> it's so interesting you say that an cuz. I thought a lot about the fact that gi. given my religious upbringing, you know,

given elements of my own faith, um why. I'm not a tread wife, apart from the. fact that I've got a slick mouth and. >> so wait, so tread wife, you're not. allowed to have like what a vibe. >> No, no vibe. >> You can't be you can't you better go. bake bread. >> Okay, but what about. >> and be timid and No, but that it's part. of that like godliness and timidity and. humility. I'm never humble. >> Wait, but is this Yeah, but being. Nigerian, you can't be. >> I Exactly. >> So, so what I'm saying is Yeah, but but.

can you like can trad wives are they can. they be like sort of balling out living. their lives when the man's not around? >> No. Cuz you want do you want to model. for your sons? This is the idealized. womanhood. And you also want to model. for your daughters this trait of. meekness, right? >> And I've never never been meek. And it. was always interesting to me to be in. like a black majority church where these. women were actually being that for their. husbands but like in their nature they. weren't. These are Ghanaian Nigerian and. Jamaican women like we ain't meek.

>> Um and I the reason I think that you we. are seeing that like someone like Nara. Smith biracial you know biracial black. girl with a white man and she makes food. from scratch. They recently did a GQ. photo shoot that was very 1950s. inspired, but they they're like gorgeous. people. They've got this these gorgeous. children with like multi-racial curly. hair, you know. I think it embodies a. lot of like future America. And the. important thing about her is that she's. Gen Z. She's 22 years old. >> That woman is 22. >> She is 22 years old.

>> or maybe 23. She has three kids. She has. three kids. >> Wow. >> Anyways, we're seeing this movement. become increasingly diversified. I know. a lot of black women who are into the. femininity movement who are like, I'm. embracing my divine feminine and my soft. life so I can find this man out there to. take care of me. And as much as I was. like I was never going to be with a man. that couldn't take care of himself cuz. I'm very in that way. The message I was. told growing up implicitly by the women. around me was like have children because. men are not safe. Your your children.

will always be there and man will leave. you. And I think that's deeply in the. >> I'd say the West African psyche of like. retreating to the home. >> is not safe for you because a man may. beat you or a man may assault you or a. man can just I come from a polygamous. family. My grandfather had 18 wives. A. man will get another wife. Right? So the. I say in a West African context being a. complete tradife is being a woman who is. not safe. Whereas I can see why in. America the domestic sphere can become.

something that is safe because America. is such a capitalist. >> But this this is what I mean. Okay. So. let me okay let me ask you both this. because you know and reading your story. of like triing trism. you were you were allergic to it on all. levels. One of the big ones was money. So then let me ask you both this. Let's. say we took money completely off the. table forever. You you would be fine. There is no issue whatsoever. >> Dropped. I love money so much. >> No but forget it. Money's out of the. there's no money. Don't worry about. money anymore. Don't worry about money.

Okay. We live in a moneyless world. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Does being a trad wife become more. attractive to you now? >> No. Not for me. >> Okay. So, not for you. Still no. I'm. just going to keep throwing things out. and then I I want to see where I get. you. >> Cuz I don't want to lose power. >> Okay. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. So, so money, no problem. Still no for you. and no for you. Well, but so like then. all I would just do all day would be. doing stuff for the home that also. served my partner. Like I would be okay. with it if I could just like garden.

Like I could do stuff that I wanted to. do. >> No, no, no, no, no. You're not. understanding. I I now see why you would. be a bad tread wife. You're not you're. not you're not listening to my commands. here and I'm saying you're tasked with. everything, but you don't ever have to. worry about money. And I mean ever. Even. if the man disappears, the state or the. entity will look after you. So. Cristiano, you're not in. >> No. >> No. Okay. Okay. Okay. It's about the. safety, but it's also about like. >> Is it the dresses? What if I said no. dresses? >> No. I want the dresses. That's the. That's the part that's Oh, you like the.

dresses. >> Oh, I love the dresses. >> Oh, jeez. Okay. So, it's not the. clothes. >> Yeah. >> Not the clothes. I'm. >> I'm trying to understand what you know. It's children. >> I cannot be with my children all day. >> I love them dearly. >> You make children. I know, but I don't. want to be around them all the time. >> Especially my own wife. >> Most people don't. Most people don't. I. don't even think these wives want to be. around their children. >> Wait, wait, before you Before you say. that, let me pitch you. So, now here's. where I'm going to pitch you something. else cuz I'm I'm I'm truly trying to.

like think of how to get this back into. society. But I think one of the biggest. things we're struggling with now in. society, and we we have been for a. while, >> is our village is shrinking, >> right? And I think humans need a village. more than anything else, right? And as. the village shrinks, people struggle to. find ways to connect. So what if what if. I traded with you? What if I said, "Okay, tread is still on the table, but. now you would be in a village. So your. kids wouldn't always be your kids alone.

You would be in the village. There would. be other tread wives around. The kids. are running around doing their thing.". Am I Am I getting any bias here? No, because I I actually like using my. intellect. I like the idea of like my. home should be my retreat because video. games. >> But you know, Trevor, >> I'm I'm just. >> Have you played video? Video games are. complicated. >> So bad. >> Video games, that's a lot of intellect. that's required. >> No, I just still I just feel that like. if by becoming a tradife, the domestic. space also becomes your work space,

right? >> And for me right now in my home, as much. as my kids exhaust me, >> Yes. I get to go home and we have a. break from each other and we have this. >> okay this is the reset and we start. again. >> and I love that I get to do this this is. a job it's it's with a friend so it. doesn't feel like a job so I feel like. I'm cheating but I get to have. conversations like this speak to you an. and. >> write and use my mind in a way that I. think is important just for like I don't. know Maslo's hierarchy of needs just. like higher state of development and.

consciousness and just using this thing. we call our brain. >> and I think that's important and I I do. feel Like all my friends that are. tradives/st stay at home mothers, they. talk about like the mundanity and how. it's so repetitive and how they do miss. the little interactions that you would. have in an office like when you're going. out to make coffee or like just the. things that I think make an adult human. an adult human. >> People miss the office affairs. I see I. see what you're saying. I'm not stealing the office copy paper, you know, it's like these different. things that we do. And. >> losing that, I think I would it would be.

it's a big part of my identity and then. my identity would just be subsumed into. being Louis's wife and the mother of my. children and then. >> someone's daughter or someone's sister. and then what about that big other part. of ourselves? Imagine you couldn't do. comedy Trevor and look after the kids. all day. >> I understand this, you know. No, now. that's what that's why I'm digging. because what what what I've been trying. to understand in this is. >> not what the bad side of it is. Let's. let's let's for a moment put aside, you. know, people being oppressed or not.

having their freedoms. What I what I. struggle to find even in the article and. was is like I was trying to understand. like what your allergic reaction to it. was. But to what Cristiana is saying. now, do do you share the sentiment or. was there something in addition to that. that you thought to yourself by doing. this I'm giving up X? Um, well, you. know, being a nanny for infants is what. actually convinced me that I shouldn't. be a parent. Like, I love kids. I don't. want to be them all around all the time.

And it was like I I know that it's. different when it's your own kid, but. like it gave me such a taste of how. mundane the day can be when you have. absolutely no one to talk to except for. a six-month-old, right? Like, it's just. you. And this was in a wealthy. community, like just me walking down the. street waving at other nannies, right? Um, and hanging out with a. six-month-old. But I think that for me, so much of it is about like that fear of. not having a future, and this is.

something we've this has been a. recurring thing in our conversation, right? Is like what happens when the man. leaves, right? Like where is your life. >> raft? >> If you've never had a chance to make it. And then the other thing that I keep. thinking about is if we flip this on you. and we're like, "Do you want to cook all. the food and take care of the babies?". It's like some men I know would say, "Yeah, I want to do all that stuff." But. they also still have the benefit of. living in a society where they are. praised immeasurably for that work and.

for that decision and where they still. have all of the power. So like that it. it's almost like an unfair thought. experiment because we can't even flip it. around and be like, "Well, would you. like that?" You're like, "Yeah, I would. love to live in a society where I get to. do the caregiving that I want but still. have all the power.". >> Don't go anywhere cuz we got more what. now after this. [Music]. I wonder if the trad wives we don't see.

online. are pissed off at the trad wives that we. do see online only because one of the. elements that both of you have mentioned. and I've I've actually heard a lot of. people speak about is the lack of. outside interaction is the lack of. outside connection is the lack of just. expanding your mind and so I wonder if. like OG treadwives. are a little bit pissed off at these. like internet tread wives because. they're Like, no, you're interacting.

with people online all day. You're. you're not living the tread. It's it's. like these um Have you ever followed. these like Tik Toks where people live. off the grid and they they're like, "I. live by myself. I'm in a I'm in a forest. and I make my food. I don't talk to. people. I don't I but they're on a live. telling people this and they're. responding to people." You know what I. mean? >> And I'm like, "But you're not living the. life.". >> Yeah. >> By by by virtue of the fact that you are. displaying it, you are not living the. life. And so I like I don't know because. you you've written so much about it and. you've interviewed so many people about.

it. Is there like a an inner conflict. within the TRD movement where they're. like these people are fake TRD or do. they look at them as missionaries where. they go no they're necessary to spread. our movement? >> Well, I think that some on like the far. extreme side of the spectrum would. definitely say that some of those cute. dresses are way too revealing. >> Oh, >> but then like I don't know. Well, I. think a lot of women aren't at all. aware. Like, if you're really deep in. this stuff, you're not you don't have a. Tik Tok account.

>> You're not watching this, right? Like, you don't have that exposure because. your husband wouldn't let you have even. that sort of freedom. >> Okay. Wait, wait, wait. So, now wait, wait. So, now let's let's go to that. >> is is the truest expression of a trad. wife the fact that you are not opting. into it? Cuz you see, it's interesting. that you just said your husband wouldn't. let you. So, are like real real real. trades not choosing to be trades or can. you choose to be somebody who is. oppressed? I know it seems like a. paradox, but can you? >> It's interesting cuz and and maybe you.

have a different perspective on this cuz. I I come from more of like a black. Pentecostal. >> um evangelical circles and there is a. degree of indoctrination like just. purity culture. You're not supposed to. have sex before your marriage. Save. yourself for your husband. you know, even if you're going to university or. college is to be a good wife or. whichever man will marry you. And. >> like anything in society, you can opt. out even though you'd become a. backslider, >> right? And I think the duggers are a.

great example because you see the whole. spectrum. You have like some duggers. girls who are like, I'm going to wear. trousers and I'm going to show my arms. I married someone, but I'm not like my. other sisters who do it in that way. So. I'd say as much as these women are quote. unquote indoctrinated, oppressed, there. is still an element of choice and some. people choice choose it more than. others. I think there are some women who. way more zealot. The one who would never. have Tik Tok or even ask her husband to. have. >> Tik Tok. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> And there is like the ballerina farms. with the contradictions who are dipping.

their toeing it and ministering. But. when you're kind of doing a purette in. this gorgeous kitchen, it shows that you. still have a longing for the career of a. ballerina. Like do you know what I mean? So So there's stuff going on there. It's. like you are not as far as zeal as. zealous as the other girls that have. been quote unquote indoctrinated in this. way. >> Yeah. And it's contradictory. >> And then there's women like myself who. are like I'm going to marry an atheist. and be on a podcast with a comedian who. has a very devilish job. >> My mom is always praying that Trevor. finds Jesus. Right. That's this is an.

ongoing thing. >> What do you mean? You must tell your mom. Jesus is who brought me here. What are. you talking about? >> But she she should start a church. She's. like, he just I just see him being a. pastor. >> He's a youth youth pastor. Youth pastor treasure. He's like he's a. man of God, but like. >> you know it but then still has some of. the pushes and pulls the tensions of it. cuz I'm like am I being a I think I'm. like I don't take these kids to church. enough or whatever it is. So you can opt. out but I think the indoctrination is. there but I don't think it's fair to act.

like these women have no choices at all. They do have choices. the ones that. we're seeing in particular, >> the ones we're seeing in particular, they do have choices. Even the choices. are limited, they are making choices, but they're also indoctrinated. It's. many things at once, I feel. And I'm I'm. I'm curious to hear from you. >> H there's so many things to talk about. here, but I think that some of them. have witnessed examples made of women. who leave their entire lives, right? if.

you left, if you weren't enough a part. of the church, like you're a fallen. woman. And the way that those women are. narrativized in the stories that they. hear in their church, in their homes, like it's the end of your life. It's. it's not just a spiritual death. It is a. like you're over. >> And so that is like do you actually have. a choice? You're like either I'm going. to risk everything or I'm going to. follow this path. I think there's also a risk that happens. when people like us from the outside are. like, "Oh, these women think that.

they're choosing, but they're not. choosing.". >> Yeah. >> It's you're giving them this sort of. false consciousness, which is very, I. think, >> demeaning, right? Like it's saying that. they don't they don't actually know, have any awareness of the world. But. man, a lot of the women are the ones. leading the charge with this. M. >> they're the ones who are encouraging. their husbands to become, you know, to. go deeper into the tad like funnel, right? And it's because they see it as.

the route to their salvation. But I also. think it's like more and more safety, >> right? Like it's that's a choice that I. have to make, right? >> Yeah. >> And I I do you know, it's so funny cuz I. speak to my friends about this about. like the matriarchs being the ones that. policed what we would wear the most. It. was never an is. being like why are you wearing that? >> I think it's a complicated loop. You. know, in the same way that black parents.

will often times beat their children. more than most cops would ever because. they're going, if you do not follow the. letter of the law, these people, the law. will come down and take you away from. me. It will end your life. I need to. brutalize you so that you do not get. brutalized by somebody who does not care. for you. In a weird way, I sometimes. think that it might be the same thing. with these societies is that these women. are not going, "How dare you wear that?". Sort of from my perspective. They're. going like, "How dare you endanger.

yourself? >> How dare you? How dare you walk around. with a skirt that short? Do you know. what that says to those men? Do you know. where that puts you? Do you understand. the position that you're now in? How. dare you?" In a in a strange way, it's. sometimes it feels to me like the people. who are trapped in the system are trying. to protect the other ones from the. harshest elements of that system. >> I think that's very No, that's a really. compassionate take. I've always felt. that the foot soldiers of patriarchy. have to be women cuz women nurture and.

raise children. It's not the men. >> So, like it has to be women. >> Okay. Okay. Okay, so let me let me throw. something at you here. And this this is. really just for thought exercise. But. what if the Tread movement turned around. and said to you, >> "No, you have been brainwashed. >> You have been brainwashed into thinking. that a woman's role is to be in an. office and a woman's role is to be in a. factory." And they're like, "This is not. what a woman does. every month your body.

releases eggs for a purpose and if you. do not then your body responds. accordingly. And so they go like, "No, you've been indoctrinated. You've been. tricked into thinking that your role is. outside of the house." And then they may. even turn around and say to you, "Look. at how much strife and turmoil you have. >> Look at how stressed you are. Look at. how you struggle to have children and. and and look at how hard your life is.". If they say that to you, do you is there. even a part of you that goes like what. if?

>> Well, I think first of all they do say. that explicitly like there there is. messaging that like feminism has. brainwashed you and feminism is the work. of the devil. Like the devil is winning. and I don't ever attribute any of my. misery to feminism or the idea that like. women have rights, right? I'm not. talking about white feminism. specifically, but like the idea that. women should have rights in society. I. attribute it to the way that our.

government works, right? The way that. humans sometimes function, the way that. we have difficulties thinking in terms. of long-term planning, um our addiction, particularly in America, to. individualism. Like those are the things. that come to mind. Never like, oh, I was. sold down the river by like the right to. vote. You know, >> I mean, voting is stressful. You have to. admit it's a stressful, you don't you. know what I mean? >> Not in Washington state. I get the.

envelope in the mail. Just check the. little box. >> Let me Okay, let me let me ask you this. on a on a on a political level. You. know, at the beginning of the. conversation, you said there's a reason. this is bubbling up now more than ever. And and and it's true. I'm assuming trad. culture didn't start yesterday. I'm. assuming it it's been around for a. while. I'm assuming it will be around. for a while, but the trend has really. gotten steam. The trend is really moving. in a certain way. And I'd love to know.

as somebody who, you know, obviously. works in this space, but explores many. others. How do you think they tie into each. other? Like what is the seduction that. they're using to to bring people in? Like why is that resonating with anyone? The idea of what is a real woman or we. need to go back to the way women were. Why is that connecting? You know, if. it's not true at all or or is some of it. true? >> I think women are exhausted. and I think that that is only become.

more true in the wake of the pandemic. So there's new research out that I saw. in the New York Times recently about. like looking at, you know, two years on. from CO isolation and and kids being. home during like especially that first. year of CO on who took on the primary. care in two parent homes with separate. genders and like the women, right? Like. just the bulk the incredible bulk of. care and then that.

fatigue just continued on. there was. never any recovery and so they had. people developed caregiving burnout but. also work burnout like all all of these. things together and then we just never. had any sort of way of coping with any. of that. If anything, parenting norms. have become even more intense in the. last four years, especially as people. have anxiety over like learning loss. that aren't actually real, right? So, like everything all the time. >> And maybe you thought that like, oh,

when my kid gets a little older, it'll. be a little easier and it's not, right? Like there's still all these anxieties. about screen time and safety and just. everything. And so if you're dealing. with that every day, just peak of. exhaustion and the only thing that you. can do when you're that tired, the only. thing that you can like find muster the. energy to do is either watch some. Netflix or lay on your bed and watch Tik. Tok, what's going to catch your eye? And.

you know the way that the algorithms. work, as you know, right? Like you watch some. of something and it gives you more of. that thing. >> So that's part of it. And it's not. so much like I don't want to have. rights. It's this way is clearly not. working. >> Yeah. >> What what other options do I have? Because like the government is not going. to change anytime soon because of the. way that it's organized in this country.

like we are still going to have people. in power who believe that offering. affordable child care. is like encourages women to work outside. of the home and thus we should not have. affordable childare. >> right so if you can't beat them join. them. >> it's it's funny you talk about the. trends and what they actually say about. society you know I I I think it's um is. it Gab Mate the the writer who says he. always talks about how when dealing with.

addiction, he says like don't focus on. the thing that you're craving, focus on. the pain that the addiction is covering. Do do you know what I mean? And in a. way, I think that with society as well. I think to myself, >> often times we'll focus on the trend. We'll focus on what people are. gravitating towards. We don't focus on. the pain that that is covering. You. know, the trades, I think you just. eloquently laid it out. We don't ask. ourselves why it's becoming more. popular. There's a lot of people going. like, "Yeah, well, wow, that sounds.

nice." To have a home, just even start. with that. >> The idea of having a home, having a. kitchen, cuz I've never seen one trad. wife go, "Hey, today I wanted to make. chicken wings, but uh the price of. chicken's gone up, so uh we're just. going to do like carrot sticks fried.". No, they they never there's not a single. Tradife video that I watched that. addresses scarcity or tough times in. some way, shape, or form. >> Yeah. Abundance. True. It's abundance. >> And so I I that's that's yeah like I I I.

think. >> when when we look at that it's it's you. know it's interesting to think of it as. a you know as an indicator of where. society is as opposed to is it good or. is it bad. >> It's just an expression of women's. exhaustion. Yeah. >> And this capitalist hellscape. >> Yeah. >> Well I I do think that some women like. this is something that's been going on. for like 10 15 years is the return to. like crafting. >> Yes. um like fiber arts and like domestic.

arts for lack of a better word, what we. used to like teach as home like those. things people like doing them. They are. rewarding. It is fun to make things with. your hands whether it's something. >> like a piece of wood or gardening or. whatever. Like I do think that and we. know we hear about this a lot because I. think a lot of millennials who. >> like worked their butts off throughout. their 20s and 30s are like okay do I. have any hobbies? Do I have a. personality? What do I like to do? >> And figuring that out. So, I do think.

that there are ways of dabbling that. aren't. full, you know, submission to the. patriarchy. Like, there's a halfway. >> Can I tell you guys a little secret on. behalf of the patriarchy? Um, men are. also exhausted. >> Yeah. >> And I I think sometimes I I don't know. Sometimes I fi find myself feeling like. we're all playing like a game and and it. almost it almost makes me wonder like. okay well if everyone is experiencing. this oppressive force who's applying the.

force. >> capitalism. >> I didn't want to say it. I didn't want. to say it but like. >> cuz you know who's not complaining about. it? Companies. I don't know if you know. this. Companies are never exhausted. Companies are never like h yes we're. having a tough time. We're so tired. We've decided to stop being a company. for a while and just take a break. Just. being, oh, we oh, we've been listed for. 50 years and it's time to take a break. We're So, you're not wrong. Companies. are the only entities that are not.

tired. >> Well, I think it brings me back to our. conversation previously about abundance, right? And part of the allure of what. they represent is abundance, right? And. we have abundance on this planet. We. have more than enough for everyone. But capitalism makes it so that that. abundance is not. >> Oh yeah. You have to create the. scarcity. Yes. >> Right. So there's scarcity for for. nearly everyone. And so but if you.

created abundance, right? If you created. a scenario where you could care and. share that caregiving, right, in the. village that we all crave, >> you could hang out with friends because. you weren't constantly exhausted from. the dual tasks of parenting and working. your job because you're terrified of. getting laid off and losing your. healthcare. If you could also dabble in. various intellectual endeavors, you. could be you could have hobbies that you. were bad at, right? like you could be a.

parent and a person at the same time. >> and that was facilitated by the spread. of all of this abundance we have on a. global level. Like that's a way of being. in the world, right? We don't have to. fetishize it. We don't have to hold it. behind a locked door that's available. only if you buy into these other ideas. >> I mean, maybe someday. >> Maybe some But for now, crowding is the. way. No, >> wait. Did I Did I learn the wrong lesson. from all of this? Oh, I I thought you.

were saying for now we all, this has been so much fun. Thank you so. much for joining us. >> Thank you, Anne. >> What now with Trevor Noah is produced by. Spotify Studios in partnership with Day. Zero Productions. The show is executive. produced by Trevor Noah Saz Yamin and. Jod Avagan. Our senior producer is Jess. Hackle. Claire Slaughter is our. producer. Music mixing and mastering by.

Hannis Brown. Thank you so much for. listening. Join me next Thursday for. another episode of What Now? [Music].