The Totally Very Real White Genocide in South Africa w/ Dan Corder & Eugene Khoza - What Now Podcast

No guys at my pick and pay... They know me as the kid who used to shoplift. Do you know what I mean? So at that pick and pay. When I walk past. The like we na. Kash Patel. I hope. This time you come in and. You can extradite this man. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Ha ha ha ha ha! Not a crime I saw Trevor, not even Trevor. Noah even admit it used to be a criminal.

in South Africa all the time. I wonder if we could do something. We could. Cash do your job. God did that. You're dead. He admitted it, and he admitted it. This is what now. with Trevor Noah.

For every conversation, he leans in. Eugene, I'm telling you, bro, we need to make that show. He leans in. Come on in. That's all. Yeah. He investigates all the claims. What do you do? He leans in, Eugene, cause it is no call. Detective. How much? How many do we need to report these fines? I'm also sensing that Eugene only asks questions of two words.

How much? Yeah. How many? That's Eugene when laughs. It's just. That's what. That's what you get in. That's when you get in. Dan, welcome. Welcome to the podcast. I apologize that you met me on a day that I'm with Eugene. Because it means anything can happen here. Goods. But I think that's the perfect setting for a conversation about genocide. About not just genocide, not just genocide, guys, but a white channel, the white one, and white genocide.

The Wallace genocide, which, as. We know, is the worst genocide. Of all, you. Know, of which how many have you committed this week? Me? Apparently there's a lot of them in this country. So I. Personally is I always start my week with a genocide. Or. all South Africans. This is what we do. If you know, my father always used to tell me Trevor must do genocide. Sorry. You're Swiss father. You know, Dan, this works, right? Why are you spreading the jokes then? Now I have to reveal to everyone that my father was.

a white man who lived in South Africa and loved it. Damn it! Dad, you. You spoiling the narrative that I thought it would have. Been like an interesting. No, Dan, the Swiss white man is also genocide. This guy. You're revealing my backstory, Dan. Oh, no one read the book. No one. Yeah, everyone read the book. But okay, so you know what? This is what I found particularly strange about this conversation. A lot of the time, I'll have a conversation with people. and we're trying to, like, figure something out moving forwards.

I feel like for this conversation, we're trying to figure something else. We're trying to figure something out backwards. Right. Because I'll just put people on the timeline. So I, I know a lot of people in America, a lot of people in the UK, etc., etc. are going, what is happening in South Africa? A lot of people, like we heard, there's a genocide, we heard that white people are being slaughtered, the whole thing. So then the whole world woke up. So you guys live in South Africa? I was in New York. Then I saw the story start bubbling. So obviously I follow South African news.

But you know, there's stories where it's like, guys, they don't come, like Eskom doesn't come, the story doesn't actually come to America, right? This story started overlapping and slowly started to realize. that it became part of the news, like international news. Okay. Then it was interesting. International journalists stepped in and said, we want to get to the bottom. of what's happening, because how could a genocide be happening under our noses? And we don't know about it, right. So the BBC, CNN, you name it. Yeah. I was even getting requests.

People were emailing me. Hi, Trevor. Are you safe? Are we. Good? There's a genocide. As if you are safe. No, no one asked if I was safe because they're like, we know where you live. It would be incredibly funny. if Facebook asks you to check in as a white person each day. About whether you were still breathing, that would be very good. But what was interesting was as quickly as it blew up. internationally, it dropped off. I saw conversations. Every one of them was obviously you went on Piers Morgan. I went to my house. You were in your house.

And I don't know, maybe we start with this. Were you shocked, Dan, when you go on Piers Morgan and you almost. you're coming there to talk about the fact that there is no genocide. There's a whole panel of other people, you know, who are like half of them. are there to say there is a genocide. And then they go, there they go, there is no genocide. So maybe that's why I want to start like, how is it that there's a conversation that's going all over the world. about a thing that isn't actually happening, and I don't mean like, isn't happening like some people feel it is.

Some people is. No, it isn't actually happening. So how did this starts? Yeah. So I think that's, over the last ten years, a raft of genuinely. very talented grifters in South Africa have snake oil salesmen, this idea, without saying it themselves on the last step. So someone like Owen Straits is very clever. He will twist the data and and decontextualized facts. to make it look like something particularly bad is happening. And then he will go on Jordan Peterson and Tucker Carlson, and he'll never say.

there's a white genocide. He'll stop just before and then let people fill in where he's directing it to. Similarly, most of this has taken place on the dark place. formerly known as Twitter like, aided and abetted by Elon Musk and on Twitter, these big, established public voices who need to have a degree of tethered. to reality. Stop just short of saying this is the worst thing ever. Like with these race laws, they stop just sort of saying these. there are more race laws than apartheid, therefore it's worse than apartheid. But then they let the anonymous bots troll campaigns on Twitter,

which are sometimes just useful idiots, but sometimes paid for campaigners. jump to the last level. So there was this X account called tweeted boss. There still is an Elon Musk. He posted a lot of his stuff. Twitter boss was just lying about a bunch of things. But what happened was. the public figures did the groundwork to allow the lunatics to then lie. on top of what they were saying, and then it ended up being Musk, repeating. and sharing these kinds of nonsense ideas all the way into the white House.

And then when Trump went executive order time. Yeah, that's when it became around the world. Yeah. That's when it became that's when because. Frankly, I just feel like Trump and his right wing love a white victim. All of the immigration stuff in America is about being terrified. of the brown person. Be terrified of the non-English speaking. Yeah, they love a white victim, but it's hard to find white victims. Guys, the history of the world makes it pretty hard to find white victims. But if somebody could come along and concoct the downtrodden, tragic, endangered white person beleaguered in South Africa and we can save them,

then that ticks all of the boxes for that kind of campaign. And I don't know if you noticed, but it seemed like every single time, for about two months, Trump had a bad day. He then tweeted about South Africa. We were the punching bag to change the narrative, to distract away, to misdirect from the other stuff. that was going on in his life that would look dangerous. So I think that we were useful fodder the way that's like our, our diplomats, Ibn Rassoul and then special envoy like Jonas, suddenly got covered by Breitbart News and Fox News.

They were turned into these dangers. because it was very useful to fit the kind of MAGA narrative. But what happened ten years ago? What am I missing? Like like. I get. that we're seeing something started, but why did it stop? I'm still intrigued by the why of it all. Do you know what I mean? Like, what is the purpose. of starting a campaign to say there's a genocide where there is none? When are you doing. When was the first time you heard about it? Not me. I was the same. When did you get the. You know, I'm being serious. When I mean, I'm. Not, but I mean, when.

When is the first time you ever heard about, like, white genocide? Saw that it was this. Yeah, it was. When everyone caught on to it, I almost felt like I was part. of living in another country because I looked outside and I was like, that's crazy, this thing happening. And I checked on my neighbor. She was fine, but she hasn't been fine for a long time. Mentally. for cats. One lady, I was like, what if it were to happen? It was that at number 43. But it wasn't happening. But I get what Dennis saying. I think, there's a lot of victimhood that's going on, and a lot of what.

people don't speak about in South Africa is the minority that oppress. the majority is still playing victim 30 years later. The other surprising thing, and I think to you the other time, I was like, the genius of this whole concocted. plan was for the former oppressor who's still a prison. Some of the people to get an apology and a guarantee of nothing. will happen to you where they'll never they've never apologized. They showed me how organized they were as an African community group. They have universities, they have unions, they have legal aid. They have everything. They speak. Collectively.

They speak collectively. But they've never said collectively, even after when apartheid was declared a crime against humanity. We are sorry for our culture and our nation has contributed. to the people of this country. But they could organize and say, we have been killed. Can I tell you? Can I tell you? What I find interesting is I'll do shows like in random places, right? Some more random than others. But let's say if I'm in Australia. somewhere or whatever, a lot of South Africans will come. And it's a broad range of South Africans. But I have yet to meet.

a South African who left South Africa during apartheid, or maybe even afterwards, who says they supported it. Yes, that's what I was about. I have yet let me tell you something I have, and I don't even mean this in like. I just go, this was a system that was well-run. It was supported it. I mean. Who voted for this? I'm just like. Where are they? You're like, where are all the people? You have to vote. I can't find a guy. I can't find 20 of them.

Even not even even the people you're talking about who are now leading these. like pro Afrikaner, pro and like extreme because, I mean, we've got to be careful. Like, you can be pro Afrikaner totally, but not be like a heavy nationalist. And so there's like a split there, you know, I mean, yeah, but even the groups that are running far right leaning, if you say to them, do you support apartheid, then they go, let me I never. that was a terrible, terrible time. And I never, I never even then I didn't. I had a picture of Mandela on my wall.

What? The Rivonia trial picture sale for 27. I'm just, like, grainy on the one that. You get at Robben Island. In the suit, in the quarry. Everyone. And and they're like. They're like, I would have voted for him three times. If I could have. He's a mandela was a great, great man. So I like this is this is this is the thing that gets me. And maybe, maybe that's what we need to spend our time digging it to. This is going to be fun. It's like the Afrikaans accent.

No, it's it is a great accent actually, but it's like, you know, then when you, when you talk about like, white victimhood, it's been interesting. seeing how this story stretches across the Atlantic Ocean, stitches across, you know, like across the top of the African continent. Everywhere in the world, people have a story of being, you know, subjugated, oppressed, something. It's the story as all this time. Right? But some of them are like straight up. just pillaging as my friend Eugene likes to say, big fan of pillaging.

You know, there was a lot of pillaging. But then there's this few. There's a few instances where people were actually, like, oppressed. because of who they were systematically, like, systematically oppressed. Right. It's interesting how the label of victimhood, or like the cult of victimhood, gets to be worn most proudly. by the people who are generally the perpetrators in these stories. So. So here's something I found interesting. We like to think of Trump as being an outlier, because Donald Trump.

is the one who rescued, you know, what is it, 49 for now? It was it was actually 59. I don't know why they didn't consent properly. It was. 59. Right? 59. Yeah, I. Wish it was 59. Then people started saying 49, maybe ten changed their mind, I don't know. But okay, the 49 or the 59 who were who were rescued, quote unquote. Yeah. The refugees. A lot of people in America essentially like, oh my God, Trevor, it must be so strange for you seeing I mean, like Donald Trump. Then I was like, it's not that strange, considering. that Bill Clinton's administration.

gave thousands of visas. to white South Africans only just before we had our first elections. Yeah, just think about that. Hatch was open to you. Yeah, just think about it for a second. South Africa had just become a democracy. The world stage had agreed that apartheid. Apartheid is bad was a crime against humanity. The whole world had done this. But just before the election, Bill Clinton's administration, not Donald. Trump, Bill Clinton's administration rescued,

2000 white South Africans because they were like, hey, man, we know that you were the bad guys, but we've got to help you escape from this situation. That's no, there's about to be different blood in the blood bath. But you see what I'm saying? Like, I'm sure both had already happened, but I just know they're like, they might be white blood in this bloodbath. Yes, but there's never been. Okay, maybe I'm wrong, but there's never been. Then I don't want. To put you on the spot. As a lot as a. White,

as a white. Don't worry is. I say it. As part of my. Training to genocide. Every. Every morning. I recite the names of every white person who has ever died in South Africa. So you can ask me about any white death. So let me ask you this. Like, maybe there's something I don't know about, like when when you are hanging out with white people alone. Yeah. Like, yeah. Because you live in Cape Town. We spend a lot of time that very white there right. Not good or bad. It just very whites. when you're hanging out with like a group, like when white people are alone. in South Africa, do they think genuinely that they are being targeted.

Like honest question. I think they're for being white. Yes. I think many I think many white people do. I will say that all my friends know my politics. So they're like, all of my friends are pretty much my politics. So in my friendship circles, no one is saying, oh, it's so hot, it's so horrible, it's so terrible. But I know because I've run WhatsApp lines when I was on five of them, which is a historically white radio station. Yeah, yeah, a breakfast show hosted my TV show, the quarter reports and everything. that a lot of people do feel that way, but it's some kind of fear of the destabilization of their privilege,

because the fear is as more and more black people become middle class, more. and more black people become, you know, like get to the same level of wealth. And then white people think, okay, but what if I one day can't get a job, one day B does this whatever. And I wanted to circle back on this actually. to your question of what happened ten years ago. Yeah, I think that what happened was South Africa had the 2020, what, 2010 World Cup. We walk a walk it our way into our peak. Yes. Jacob Zuma came to power. Yeah. And finally there was a black president.

who was all the bad things that white people thought black people were about. Oh, yeah. Okay. That's what happened. The state capture stuff, the Zuma corruption stuff. Suddenly the rainbow nation was popped. Nobody says that anymore. Nobody says Rainbow Nation anymore. That beautiful brand thing, the Desmond Tutu, the Mandela, the name back. Yeah, yeah. And then 2010 happen k9's wave your flag was much better than Shakira's Waka Waka. We all know this to be true, but those two songs happened. The World Cup was incredible. We did the dream Rainbow Nation thing. and then service delivery started to collapse. Rampant corruption started to happen. The police started to fall apart.

The whole country started to go. Things are not going very well, but the but but many white South Africans. had the dangerous black president they'd been terrified of since the beginning. And that opened a space that's interesting. It opened a space for white grifters to then go, we're in trouble now. They're coming for us. They're persecuting us. White, whites, economic empowerment, Bell Pottinger. All of this was fodder for white grifters to say they're coming for us. We told you, we know the blacks were nice before this and we couldn't show the trouble.

And Becky was battle. Mandela was bad. It was bad. But now things are objectively getting worse for lots of South Africans. Here's the black boogeyman we were telling you is coming. And then Malema came along. And this is more black boogeyman stuff, the terrifying black boogeyman. And from there all devolve to where we are now. It's interesting you say that because you and I laugh about this a lot, but there's a thing that happens with people, and, I mean, everyone can be guilty of this, by the way. I think any group. But you know, where let's say as black people, you're hanging out together.

and you'll say something about a black person, let's say, who's in power. So, you know, you were like Jacob Zuma, Jacob Zuma, this guy, this guy. And then you'll find someone will step into that free. and they'll say something. Were you like we were we weren't. We didn't mean it like that. Yeah, I know he's bad, but yes, but you know what I mean. But but they'll say something. You know what? You know, you'll be like so much corruption. So they'll be like. They'll be like, yeah, but I mean, what do you expect. They like that. Yeah. New. Like who's they. Yes.

Well I'm. Sorry, are you saying a black person. Yeah. No, no. What what I'm. Saying that company. What I'm saying to you, what you what you've revealed, which is really interesting, is. black people have the ability. to separate an action that is black culturally. And the person that is black, that is just doing something right. Do you see what I'm saying? Yeah. What I've noticed in a lot of these conversations is. there are synonyms that are used for actions. So even when people are talking to Donald Trump in the white House, even when people are on the news or talking to Piers Morgan, even when,

when they're going like, look, there might not be a genocide, but the crime. Yes, crime has become a synonym for black. Just like the community. Same as. Corruption. Yes, corruption is also a synonym for black. The community, the townships. Yes. Like it's like it's all wink, nudge. It's another way to say black. Exactly. It's like the way that Black Lives Matter involved in To Die, which, you know, so obsessed with. It's called the black and it's usually code word for the k word or the N-word. Yeah. Like but. It is.

Yeah, but can I just say as a preference. For the sequel. Yes, exactly. But I will say it just as a preference thing to anyone who's listening. I would prefer if you called me the crime than the N-word. If you meet me in the streets and you say, like, look at the crime walking across the street, I'll be less offended. And hip hop will be so boring. I'm just saying, what up my crime word. I know we got enough. What? Variety sounds better already. Sounds better? You? I know it sounds like you're asking for trouble. Crime. Please.

These crimes. You know, growing up, we always used to have this thing. When people come to visit our house, who would wait for the moment when they leave, and then we would all gossip about them. Yeah. As soon as they're gone, my mum would call you. We have our house back again. South Africans have never had their house back. Damn. We've never we've never sat as black people and said, guys, let's let's gossip about them. Damn, damn. Let's. We had to we had to make nice very quick. Right? If I had thumbs, I would snap. What.

We had to make nice very, very quickly. As soon as that ended, you had to be nice to the school governing. body for your child to enter that school. You had to be nice to show that you're not like that kind of a crime. in an estate, in a housing community, in that, you know, you had to. We have to be nice. So the ones that could played nice to be in those communities, the ones that couldn't afford, played nice to work in those communities. We never had time to gossip as a family. So when it happened with Jacob Zuma, when we all said it. But that guy. Exactly. And then the other people heard us and said, that guy when there was like,

no, it's not our guy. He's just the guy who's doing wrong. And then the whole conversation got lost. And Marius and let's not also forget if people were 15. when this conversation started in 2010, they were now 20. Yeah, joining the fray. And they had no idea about because when you try to remind kids. about apartheid, you're wasting their time. But if you say now, you know, 15 year old struggled to tell the difference. between Jacob Zuma, Nelson Mandela, Nelson Mandela is a guy on a on a on a note, Jacob Zuma is real. And then there are so many people who I talk to.

One of the things that disturbs me the most in my work is how many people. under the age of 25 don't know what what the task was? Yes. So like if I if I was king for a day, number one, every South African has history to matric. Number two we overhauled the matric syllabus because you need. There's too much Cold war in there. There's too much. Why do we. Get number one to studying about the Vietnam War? There's a fuck. About the Cuban Missile Crisis. Who cares? It almost happened, but it didn't have Kennedy.

It's almost happened today. Then it almost happened. Of course, many sky. Why do you think so? Do you know how close they were again? So must be put. got put Guy Fawkes in the syllabus because it almost happened. It almost happened then it almost happened. But like my fundamental point is that even like I think a lot about how. we only know the headlines of apartheid settler colonialism and before. Yes, but even now, younger generations don't know that stuff. And in a country which is so systemically defined even today.

by all of that, people who don't know that stuff. have an inability to truly appreciate the dynamics. that exists within our country, and the only way. to help people to understand. is to say, hey, we did this deal at the end of apartheid. because we wanted to find out what was going on. The apartheid government was burning. tens of thousands of pieces of paper, the records of their evils. Some people made a choice that we would offer amnesty in exchange. for finding out what really happened and trying to get some kind of closure. Some people disagreed on that, like like Biko's family, for example,

because right now an inquiry has been opened up into why the NPA didn't. pursue court cases against some people from apartheid who did not get amnesty. They were supposed to be pursued. Right. So let's just take a step back. So for those who don't know, yes, let's just break this down for them. Because if you write, a lot of people don't know, a lot of people will be listening to this or watching this and going, wait, what happened? Yeah, because I know. a lot of the world thinks of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission.

as the gold standard in terms of a peaceful transfer of power. It is considered the gold standard of the bloodless revolution. Yes. Right. So no way in the world. And this is true. Nowhere in the world has there been a revolution where. a minority who oppressed the majority, gave up power, but then didn't see mass bloodshed. This is just it's not attribution. Yeah. Yes. Right. And everyone looks at the TRC as the gold standard. They go, wow, what an amazing experience.

A country that experienced so much trauma and so much pain. came together and said, we're going to speak about this. We're going to add on television. The whole country is going to be privy to it. And regardless of how heinous these crimes are, we're going to speak about them. And the key aspect of it is those who come forward. To admit. To admit what they did. revealed from the shadows, they will be given amnesty. And then if. That's if the evidence is proven to be true, yes, point us to the. Grave. And if it is. Sincere, sincere.

So it's. his biggest touch was very human about it. He was like, we want to feel like this is genuine remorse, right? Because like functionally we want remorseful people, but we also for the victims, you have to see remorse as a victim, or you're not going to feel closure or feel like this person is really sorry. Right. And so that's how the story was. Yeah. But that's how the story sort of ended for the 100%. It was what a beautiful story. These people admitted mass killings and mass tortures and all of these things.

And the people they did it two for gave them the ones who were left alive. And then when they left those meetings, the black people got into Texas again. and drove to the township, and they formed houses. No, what I'm saying. Is off this, I'm saying, cuando. You see that story? Yes. That that's where the. And they drove back to their suburbs and privilege. Yes. But I'm saying yes you are. You're adding to the story. Yes, I'm saying the story. No, no. I'm agreeing with, you know, like happily ever after. Yes. That's the that's where it ends on. And then everyone cried. Everyone hugged each other. Yeah. And then everything was perfect. I always say,

to make sure that the revolution doesn't continue. You have to kill the young of the revolutionaries. The one thing that that system did, it has still had remnants of those people. running private schools. Now, in these former schools that were called model C schools, they had to make sure that these kids that were first wave to go inside. these privileged schools and wealthy schools. have the accent of the people that they were supposed to. Not like and submit to. The culture was very weird. Yeah. You know, you're playing cricket. You're in that little camp, you're playing rugby. Learning what it. Is. Then you at home. Yeah. You just as amazing. Don't spend all your interest on my blog. It's not slander.

And guys, don't it don't get anyone. I had to go learn anyone step into my world and the learn stuff. I saw South Africans. Slandering that man a few years ago. I was like, yo guys, if I was here, I would have fought for them and. I would have fought for that man. But wait, can I tell you something? The way I know this is a tangent. But the way Leon Schuster exposed racism in South Africa. Oh man, I. Think we owe Leon Schuster almost as much as we owe the TRC. Because Leon Schuster. Leon Schuster showed us.

how much was still buried in South African culture. That man could have edited out. Every k. Word, every racist, every that men went as an immigrant. And got people without being a person of color. Yes, but he. Chose he went as an Indian. And then people like, add blackface. What? No, it wasn't black use in disguise. There's a difference. Blackface is mocking a person for their race. This man went in disguise. He went as an Indian person to white person's world. He went as a black person. To a white person. Went as a white person. He did everything but what he showed me even as a child. I won't lie, TRC was one thing.

Leon Schuster for me. was one of the most informative experiences I had about South. Africa because I was like education, because. I was like, oh, this is what's happening when no one knows. Looking, watching, no one's looking. This is. How they speak to their workers. Petrol attendants. This is how they speak to somebody when they think something's gone wrong. That yo, that was sorry, but I interrupted. But that to me, that was like. Can I add to Leon Schuster before we continue it? Besides, like, I understand like the the optics of it right now feels weird. But as nonwhite people growing up at the time,

the first time we ever saw a nonwhite person. getting one over a white bus, yes, was in the launches. was the first time we ever saw a nonwhite person winning a situation. Whatever that situation is, was in a Leon Schuster film. And yes, later in life, Mama Bones is blackface. But the pranks, the pranks up? No, the pranks of the. Pranks a flawless, in my opinion. The facts are flawless. Absolutely flawless. Yeah. So the the integration and the mix have been quite quickly.

And you come from that generation, you and I, where. if you went to a multiracial school, a school or formal school. and your parents have a different accent. than yours, but your parents, when they're moving around the world. or around South Africa, they world, they could speak to more black people than you could. Yeah. So that became that generation grew up, and then that generation. sang in unison to the choir of black people are corrupt. This ANC government is messing up everything. Blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, you know, there's many things. about this government that you can see. But one thing, it is integrated and made lots of people rich who are not black.

There's a lot of things that this government can do. And I always say, drive around in the road, on the highways in your suburb and see a car that is a plumber, a person. that's an electrician, and see if there's a black name in that van. In that truck. There was a system that people understood very well when apartheid ended, that. there would be a lot of shortcomings. Yeah. When it comes to service delivery, in fact, the government itself will struggle to maintain their own infrastructure. So we will maintain that infrastructure and create businesses that make money.

I swear, now, the the blackouts that Eskom caused. had caused to have many more. white millionaires in business than there are black millionaires. From the solar business, from this, from the. Yeah, yeah, I don't know from the from the power generation. I don't. Know any any. Any black solar installed that I can call. But the same people were like this. This thing is rubbish. There were the ones 250,000 rand will climb on your roof. Will make this thing happen for you. Then I'm like, yeah, but it's the same every way.

It's it's the even the police are being helped. by private security that's owned by white people. Do you know what I'm saying? And I've had this conversation so many times and I'm like, this country's. so weird that we come from we can watch documentaries. and see how black people policed by white people in the 70s, in the 80s. And I'm saying, what's so different now when you move around Fourways? It's just been it's been privatized. Yeah. But what's different. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm respons I'm. talking about the guy that your security guard. goes, you're not allowed to carry firearms in the first place, so you're not as safe as you think you are.

The response is armed, meaning the person that comes. Let me ask you this. Then let me ask you this. Do you do you think because it's interesting. to see these perspectives, right. Because. when I listen to the conversations that are being had. and I see what people are discussing, I notice two very different. positions that people have to take. And it's really interesting. It sort of goes back to what you. what you said at the beginning of the conversation. I noticed that when you went on Piers Morgan.

Black South Africans. have to start every conversation with. white people. You're not in danger. We swear we have nothing against you. We love you. We love you very much. We love you so much. We love you. We want you here. We love you. We love you. Please join us. You know we love you. So Ramaphosa, South Africa's president, had to go to the white House, sit with Trump and go, we we love white people. We love them. Everyone is welcome in our country.

Every we love them. We love them. Trump states like you hate the way you hate. And he's like, no, we love even you. We love. You. We love. Her. The plane would give you. Yeah. Even said if we had. I wish we had a plane to give you. I wish we imagine. Imagine that level that you're coming from. Right. And these are people who for the most part, I mean, you know, the statistics, you know, like a lot of the numbers. But if you look at, for the most part, those are the people. who have less than nothing.

And it was designed that way. Right. But their role is still to coddle white South Africans and say, hey, look, you're safe and you, you're going to be, you know, but it's interesting how what? And again, we've got to be very careful of this because there are many cool white. So I mean, here's one of them. You're sitting here with us until you do something. And then and your brother and your brother, wherever he is, who is on your podcast calls. But don't get. I don't know, but like but. And you know, and this is, this is the reason I, the reason I hop on this is not not to be like politically correct or anything.

I think it's, I think it's because I never want to be in a position. where people allow us to divide and conquer ourselves. Of course. Do you know what I mean? There are tons of white South Africans, tons who are proudly. South African, who stay in the country, who contribute, who integrate. Who you. Speak Zulu dance. You know what I mean? Like things that people might be like, oh, dancing. I'm like, no, no, no, guys, there was a cultural stigma that came with many of these things. that is now being adopted by a different generation,

which is beautiful, you know what I mean? 100%. But there's still a world where white people go. The crime that happens to them. seems to be more significant than the crime that was always happening. Like, people will go, you know, crime wasn't this bad during apartheid, but the whole the whole country was a crime. Yeah. Yeah, crime scene. And crime wasn't bad in your area. I did this is what you actually mean. Because one of. For me, one of the wildest things. about apartheid is they didn't do a census of black South Africans. So we only found out even how many people there were in South Africa,

including people of color. In 1996 and 1995, six was the first census. Oh, you're lying for real. And I have reread that census so many times, because it's the first time. you find out how many South Africans had no schools, no hospitals, no, sir. No. Because white South Africa had no interest in finding that out. One, because they weren't. going to service it, but two, because they didn't. want to let anybody else find out how bad it was. So this is another thing like the TRC as important as the TRC,

the finding of what what had happened in South Africa was that census in 96. found out what South Africa was then for the first time. And we didn't know that before then. And so but a lot of people don't even know what was going on in that census. So what I do on the show quite often is I just go, okay, what's South Africa? Let's just talk for a second. Guess how many white South Africans had no electricity in 1996? Guess how many black South Africans? And the stats are unreal and the disparity. I'm going to try to remember some off the top of my head, but it was something like, okay, the one I can remember is they were like.

6 million in black, people or black. Yeah, six. Many black people living in informal dwellings in 1996. And there was less. That's just just to be clear, when people say informal shacks. Yeah. We're not talking about like, yeah, we're talking about it is a non house. Totally. And how many white South Africans I think there was like less than 50,000. like and and people don't know that. And that's when I say again like you need to understand oh 30 years is so long. No it's fucking not. Yeah. It's nothing. Not when that is what you're trying to recover from.

And I know that some people think that I bat for the ANC, which I obviously don't. If you look at all my material. I just. Read says otherwise. This is, the Springboks and, nothing else. A comrade then comrade. And then, as we call, we have revised. You come back, then now's the time. Yeah. Revolutionary greetings. But no. We're going to continue this conversation right after this. short break.

Something that's so important to understand about even looking. at today's stats of how many people live here, there, whatever is that? If you know how bad it was in South Africa in 1996, to then see how much. good Mandela's ANC did, the ADP rollout of houses was one of the most. Record-Breaking The large Housing Programs in Human History. And if you if you look now, they stopped doing it and enjoying.

Mbeki's reign, everything started to go wrong. And then since so many even in drama posted, they doing virtually nothing in the state, is decrepit and awful, and they've done terrible things that we can't forgive them for. But consider where they got from 96 to about 2006. Unbelievable building of a country, from dire inequality. to giving so many South. Africans things that they could have never imagined happening. And we need to know that we all need to understand. what was in that census in 1996 to get that in this rainbow nation. Cute thing. While the TLC was happening. That's the country that apartheid and settler colonialism left us.

Well, you know, you know what it goes to. And I think this is a conversation that a lot of people struggle with. People don't understand that there is a distinct difference. between the apology. and then in some way, shape or form. the retribution or someone amending or you know what I mean? The restitution. Where's the restitution? Can I step in here quickly? There's a there's a quote and I don't know who to attribute it to, but. It's you can just say they say, yeah. Is a I'm not sure of the agenda.

So yeah, they, they, they, they said that South Africa is what happened. when forgiveness was given before guilt was admitted. Yeah. That's why we find ourselves. Yeah, yeah. Forgiveness was given before guilt was admitted. And that like statement alone. speaks to every single thing you guys have been speaking about. Yeah. No one said sorry. Yeah. It's a it's a. but it's not even just like like even if you say everyone said sorry.

You know, I think of I think of some of the lessons that, you know, they'll teach you, you know, couples therapist, for instance, relationship therapist. One of the things that if you read the books, they'll always. talk about something very specific and they go in a relationship. if you're with somebody and they wronged you, right. So they talk about like infidelity. And I think, like Esther Perel has in some of her books and stuff, they go. a lot of people make the mistake of thinking that the infidelity ends. when the person admits to it and seeks forgiveness,

but that's actually the beginning of the journey, because now what has to happen is the person who has wronged. their partner has to spend all their time. And I know this sounds crazy. Spend all their time showing their partner that they haven't forgotten. the transaction, the transgression. It's the rebuild. You literally and and people who hear this should be like, wait, what? But think about how many times, whether it's on TV or in real life, you've heard people. who've had some sort of infidelity in a relationship go, you know, like their partner brings it up and it's like, oh, this again,

I already said sorry. It's like, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know why the person brought it up again? Because you don't anymore. And if the person feels like you don't. Yeah. If the person feels like you have gotten over it before they have. Yeah. They're going to bring it up. Your examples actually really good. Because something that I think about. is that white South Africans have never earned black South Africans trust. Know that that is another part of the post TLC conversation and apologies. Not enough. White people. You want to. Show up Africa couldn't say.

Mbeki yeah you guys, guys, that shit used to blow my mind. You have to work harder than. The president of the country. His name was taboo. Make no clicks. No nothing. Not even, like, challenging. You know what I mean? Not. Not time saying no. Make. people without fail would go. Yeah, President Mbeki, then you'd go like Mbeki. Mbeki. Then you like Mbeki. They'd be like, oh, I can't say it of because you can. Then I go, but let some tennis player come along who's at Wimbledon.

From Eastern. Europe, and they'll have a name that yo all consonants, no vowels. I've never seen these people struggle. You know what you like. So you can say that name. But Mbeki, you. Why can't you say. Can you say can you say B? But it felt like it always felt like to me it was, it wasn't so much that they couldn't say it wouldn't bother. It felt like it was like, no, it's not even wouldn't bother. It felt like. It was a silent revolution. It was a silent protest. Yeah. It felt like they were. It felt like they were giving something up. Yeah.

I want to make your sound. Yeah. And that's why I genuinely like when I look at my brother's generation. My brother's 20 years younger than me. My youngest brother. Right. Yo, the kids that he goes to school with, they don't bat an eyelid at any of this. Mbeki. Nothing to them. Genuinely nothing. Genuinely, genuinely nothing. When I look at like, young white kids growing up now, I can't speak for all of them. But I know from my generation already, like when we went to school. versus the kids now. Yo, bruh, these kids, so many of them don't see it as a. like a an inferior thing because they've seen it.

They've seen poor black, they've seen corrupt black, they've seen this, you know what I mean? Like they've also had, famous black people in their life. I never thought of that, which is a really, really big deal. It's like really, really important to understand. the extent to which celebrity agenda. sets what we should bother to learn to and care about. Like, like like the fact that like the fact that young white. South Africans know Mapimpi and they know, and Ox and Che. Never thought. That they can talk about all of those things. Rabada right now at the cricket, I don't know when this comes out.

Also, Americans, you don't know what I'm talking about with this anyway. So Tyler's a good one. Tyler's another good. One. I mean, just just that alone. You're right. Like people. make the effort for their heroes, and, white South Africans have black heroes. Now, at least some. And that is, it makes a huge, huge, huge difference to your understanding of what. is worth putting your effort into actually learning to care about and do. Yeah, but I think South Africa became a poster child for diplomacy. We almost had to, as a country, put our best foot forward,

and the ones who could speak the better English had to be sent out. in the world to go and apologize on behalf of the transgressors. And two systems were adopted to make sure that that happens. So our government swapped retribution for restitution. P is not an ANC manufactured program. It's an apartheid system program. It existed before for white people to benefit from government contracts. Tenders were not invented by the ANC. They were invented by the apartheid government. Well, I mean, they they for every government if we fair.

But not every. Company in the world has a tender system. Yeah. No, but you think about. What you're saying is in South Africa, a lot of people think tenders were invented by the. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because the word tender paranoia did not exist during apartheid. Yeah. But then the years existed. But like what is commonly known as an apartheid. if not white economic empowerment, that's exactly what it is. And that's actually what I feel like most South Africans to start doing. is using the same language to show the comparison. But can I tell you, can I tell you what it is? Sorry. I'll tell you that before you go forward. Yeah, I'll tell you this.

This is where I think. a lot of these things actually start falling down. And I think it's interesting because there are parallels in the United States. For the most part it boils down. to marketing. and it boils down to implementation. Right? I think it was Lil Wayne who said, real G's move in silence like lasagna. Yeah. Oh, Lana's in the Eastern Cape. Yeah, yeah. You know what?

What's so profound about that when you think about it, is. During apartheid, right. During any of these systems in America, even. they weren't as explicit as people think. about saying, we are helping you because you are white. Yeah. They denied people because they were black, but. they didn't say to white people, we are helping you because you are white. So what they said was, hey guys, there's a system called welfare. Yeah. If you cannot afford to buy food and you cannot afford to have a house,

the government will help you. There's a system called what? What a system. There's. there's Medicare, there's Medicaid, there's health care, there's pension. What is pension? No. When you're old, the government will look after you because you need to be looked after. Everyone deserves to be looked after. But then what they would do is they would just exclude black people from everyone. So now people grew up in a world thinking everyone gets looked after. because they deserve to be. Yeah, you are a single mother. You are a widow, a widower, you're an orphan, you're injured,

injured, you're disabled. It doesn't matter. Everyone deserves to be looked after. And then they excluded from everyone. Then what happens? Then? What happens? Laws start to change, right? So in America, what happened? They said okay, no, now black people can go to the school. Now black people can go swim in a swimming pool immediately. From that moment. You see it in American history. You see in South African. I grew up with public pools. Right. That's when I was growing up. It was batshit crazy to have a swimming pool in your house, guys.

Yeah, I don't think you understand. Even now, when I look at people I go to. Because, you know, when you fly, you know, when you're landing in any city in the world. and you look down, people don't understand how crazy it is. to have a body of water in the backyard of your house. That is for your soul consumption, just you and your family have 50,000l of water. Dispose of your occasional use. Yes. Guys. When I was growing up, there was one pool in the neighborhood. and it was run by the government, and everyone went.

and we swam together and then we all went home. Because you don't swim every day and that's life. You know what I mean? But it was interesting to. see when they said, black people are going to come to the pool. People then said. We'll get our own pools. We're getting our own pools. And then what happened? The pools all shut down. I don't business, I don't even think there's a there's a yeah, you're right. I don't even think there's a public pool anywhere. Anyone that I know of. So, just on on what you talk about just now, is one of the most extraordinary acts of welfare.

To pull people out of poverty was in the 1950s, when the apartheid government dedicated nearly. all of its tax revenue to pulling a poor white Afrikaners out of poverty. And that was massive, massive welfare grants, unemployment grants, job seekers grants, illness and childhood and old age grants. And when I talk about white economic empowerment, and I've covered it in this way specifically, a lot of people try. to like Muddy the Waters and gray what happened during apartheid.

And so what I do is I go, okay, let's go. and look at the apartheid government's official record of the policies. that they did, because you can't fight with me on that. It's on the record. It's in our government policies. That is what they did. systematically from 1948 all the way through until about the mid 1960s. And if they were providing food parcels. or if they were doing construction or whatever, they were only giving the tenders to white Afrikaner owned companies. And so if you look at some of the biggest companies in South Africa today, those are companies that the apartheid government made, made to gain Afrikaner wealth. But it goes further back than that.

Even pre apartheid in the 1920s, more and more big companies were hiring skilled black South African workers, particularly on the mines, and to do construction in. and around Johannesburg, white Afrikaner in particular, unskilled workers protested and went on strike. And in response to keep their votes, the apartheid government created, sorry, the apartheid government. The Union government made public works infrastructure program. like they built things. Dedicated. Like the dam had to be put. Down.

And they only hired white people. Yep. They made public works infrastructure. projects to create jobs only for white people. And interesting fact that the land, that land was donated, yes, was owned by a single person who said, you guys can have it. So when you're talking about America, what I find fascinating in American politics, as you will know, is that very often if the left says a branded thing, the right will twist it on the same branding to make it seem similar. So Black Lives Matter Blue lives matter. Yeah. Stop the steal. Stop the whatever. Right.

In South Africa, if we started saying whites. economic empowerment is our history, people. Would go, oh, it's just like being. Except it doesn't. Go nearly as far in the disempowerment of one group of people. or the benefiting of another. If we all just started saying over and over again, people would understand what a project's actual economic project was, because in the history books, you do need to learn about the crimes. You do need to learn about the like aberrations of justice. and the violations of people's human rights. But you also need to deal.

with the economic superpower of creating white wealth. And if we as a country started to think about apartheid like that, we would better understand that redress laws and policies like by now, both work need to happen and are helping the still disempowered. It's funny you say that. I was having a conversation with, a gentleman in London who had left South Africa, South African guy, and he was talking to me about like his journey. And he goes, it's like, Trevor, you know, I left South Africa, our family, we had to leave. And, you know, it's just terrible.

I, I was like, yeah, you know, crime is really bad and corruption, we can't get under control. We got it. We got to work on these things. He's like, yeah, yeah. You know, it's just really bad. And you know, and I just feel like look, you know, and you know, when someone starts. couching comments because look, here's the thing. I'm not like I just let's be honest. Like be like to have black economic empowerment, like, what are you saying? And you know, and come on, man, why don't we just say we start from scratch? Everyone's equal. We just start from scratch. And he said it in a really earnest way. He said, Trevor,

isn't it making it worse when a government says. that black people or people who are Indian or black, they should get help. just because of what happened when my my kids weren't around for that. So my kid goes to school with a kid who's black. They started at the same time. Yes. So they have the same footing. And I was like, okay, this is this is an interesting way to think of it. Now, let me ask you a question. Would you be willing. to give your entire bank account.

and your housing away to a black family? So now I'm going to ask you, as a white South African, to give a black family about you and your car and your money in the bank. Give it all to them. And he went, no, I would never do that. Then I said, okay, but why would you not do that? It's not because I've worked for this. I said, okay, but now if I did take it all from you, if I took it all from you, talking. from the first investment all the way, if I took it all from you,

what would your problem be? He said, no, you've taken everything. I've worked. I said, yes, but your son starting from scratch. So your son will make the money for you? Should be fine. Then. He's like, no, but I mean, do you know how long it took me to work for this? And I can't just give it to you. And I have to. My son have to pay for him to go to school. Then I said, okay, so now why is it. that you are able to understand the power of the compound interest. and the compound wealth that you have acquired over generations, and yet you're unable to acknowledge it?

For every black person who was never allowed to acquire. any wealth from the generations, most of us. imagine living in a world where most of us are the first generation of our families. that ever tipped the needle above one. Most black families in South Africa lived from zero, and all you did was didn't get to one. You just did this to get to the next month. And then it was zero and then it went below zero. And then you just tried to get above. and then back below zero, and then you tried to get.

And most of us are the first generation of like excess, I would call it. But with and we were we we're like a mega minority. Can't even do you one better. You always one on one bits. Of. what kind of friendship is this guys. For the after the first elections in 94, that was the first generation of black people to say and do what they like. That's wild dude. Yeah. Just think about that for a second. And two what you like. Yeah. And people take that for granted. And I'm always thinking to myself. Who was the first black person who just like, wiggled.

Was like, yeah. Just okay. Just like the first was. No, just okay. Think about this. For a second. We take this for granted. Now we all take it for granted. There was a time in South Africa not only because a time makes. it sound like it was like black and white. Because, you know, I know. And then listen to us color. Everything was good. This is. This is when there's color pictures. Yeah. There's color. Footage. Color pictures. Black people couldn't walk in the street randomly. If you took. The wrong way, you were taken away.

Do you know what I mean? But now I want to know, because obviously there's very meaningful things. I'm sure some some people, some people like, I'm going to school. Is this your is this how you purported since this. Is this is that I've just made this. Is very sincere look at. I can see. How hard you are fighting. No, no, this is very inside of you, right? His brain. This is very serious. You know, you and. I can see. How hard you look. Look at me. Some people were like, I don't play, I. Some people with this, they don't. He's made me cry with.

people. Like I go to school. I'm going to start a business. I'm going to. But I wonder, there must have been some black people who had just like. Because. I know we think of it in a in a meaningful way all the time, but you know how how wonderful it is to be able to act the fool in life. with no repercussions. And I mean this in. Like a, in a in a sense, you. Do that for a living. Yeah, but. There was no comedy. You know, I'm saying. Yeah, we should know. There was nothing. Is we. What is it? They had the same rule of like, the Bible. Three or if three or more gathered.

Yeah. Then from an island. Literally. But it was that they. Said if like how many people, how many black people was it if, once you put a certain amount of black people, they said it was a political gathering. Inherently you guys would be safe. because it's when enough black people were enough white people. Nah. With this guy, with this, with this shit, with this shit, with undercover, with undercover men. Actually, actually, this is a good question to ask you. This is a good question to ask you. Why do you think white people get almost double angry?

With white people. Who speak. Out? Because I've. Seen. My comments. I've seen like, black people. But they'll just go. Yeah, you. You, whatever. You know, they run the gamut. from your delusional to your a monkey, but it's the usual whatever. Then when you speak, hey my man, let me tell you something. you make and I won't say white people, in fact all separate groups. You as a white person, when you speak, you make racists very angry, uncomfortable, uncomfortable is an understatement.

And this. Guy gets death threats where I'm reading his comments like, you're. And you know, I'm like a den. Yeah. No. Here my man. Yeah. Okay. Properly. Yeah. So I believe that's. the most threatening thing to a white supremacist is not a person of color. It's a white person who disagrees with them. Because white people listen to white people. instinctively more than they listen to people of other races.

And I think that that is true of all different kinds of intersections. Men listen to men easily in a way. They don't listen to women. Straight people listen to other straight people. No, I instantly that they don't listen to, queer people. So you think it's a power thing? I think that if somebody has an agenda of trying to create a world. in which, black people are less black people like this, for white people to all agree with them with the most threatening thing to them. As a white person who goes, you're wrong, because that white person can make other white people think, oh, maybe he is wrong.

Maybe black people aren't actually like this. Maybe it's not like that when I talk, it's a direct threat to their project. of convincing. white people that black people are like this under threats and whatever. And so, I mean, yep, lots of death threats, lots of sometimes hilarious, comments, to be fair, because most bigots online are not funny or intelligent. They just say dumb shit. But I was once called son of the soy, and that's objectively hilarious. As in, like, soy beans. Yeah, yeah, because son of the soil, son of the soy.

And I was. Like, okay. Okay. You thought about that? That's good. Because you worked a little bit on that. That was for it. I was like, that's poetic. I like poetic. Reason. You are my favorite. Hey, Quincy. Hey. What's racism? That's that's good. Yeah, I like that. But but I think also that, for, for white people who disagree with me, I think some of them aren't doing a project. for trying to convince everybody that black people are worse. Some of them just have deep seated, unacknowledged racism within themselves. That goes like this. When I'm called a race traitor, me when I'm called a race traitor.

What it shows about the person. accusing me of being a race traitor is that they conceive of races as teams. My team is the white team. Daniel White, you're on my team automatically. And teams compete in sport. Yeah. So you need, as a white person, down on the white team. We need to be working together to look after our team. If you say anything that criticizes white people or heaven, forget the, forgive the Democratic fucking alliance, then you are a race traitor. Which means that you are harming the whites.

Project the white Team's attempt to win, and you are strengthening another team's attempt to win. That is a fundamentally subliminally racist conception. of how race should be most important in the way that you build power. and protect community, that you should sacrifice truth in order to. Protect. The white team. Exactly. And so I think that for some white South Africans who don't like what I'm saying, you'll see in my comments, it's almost never a counterfactual.

or a counter-argument. No, it's always a personal attack. Yeah. And it's. They'll say. I do this to your yeah, you're gay, you're a black lover, whatever that means. Like, like like. All of you love black. Yeah. Love them. No, but, you know, just drive by and see them on the side of the road in like. Yeah. And the other. Thing that they love to say is like y'all of course you love Joe but. I can't which obviously means like. A wing. You like black women down or no black black men. specifically because people love accusing any man they dislike of.

being gay as though it's somehow a problem. You hear that Trevor? And then I don't even know what I'm. I don't know what you know. What are we talking about? You hit me with that. And I'm like, I'm still trying to figure out what. But sorry. Just just finish. The same conversation we're talking about is the capes on versus overcompensation. Yeah. So you said capes on very, very white rights. Predominantly kids on international is very whites. kept on South Africa is not they're completely different worlds.

I have quite often, I think, very reasonably critique. the housing crisis, the Airbnb crisis, some of the DA's decisions. really in capes on even in as though they've also done. a lot of really good stuff and built an empowered, world class city. If I criticize Cape Town, it's the same. Oh, it's it's it's racialized. They say you're a race traitor. They say saying Cape Town, but they mean whites, just like you were saying earlier. Yeah, crime means black. Joburg means black. Cape town means whites. You are criticizing us. Our team.

Why are you doing that? Our home base in this game of tag. But I guess that evolution has always wanted to adopt one single white person. here and there to just kind of just kind of get through to the end. You might think it's funny, but actually. Right. Joe Slovo, was that for the ANC? Yeah. For Father Justice and was bad for me. Well, for Desmond Tutu. So there was always one with like, you need to roll with this guy. And when we started doing comedy. to get the gig that you want to get, you must have a white agent. You had to have a white. To be someone who says he will show up. You will come. The man said.

No, you get to vote. Much about hard people like. People like Joe Palca. Yeah, this is a white comedian who was having to promise. white companies that a black performer was worth having. Yeah, not even like trust. He would have to vouch and go. I promise you, this person is worth having at your event. Yes, please trust me on this. And remember. The hand-holding that we used to have a. Video. The person will show up with you. Yeah. Make the introductions shake. You just stand up and.

Just stand there. Uncomfortable. Like, literally. So we would go and. Perform, you know? So I mean, like, I mean, like, act like a shot. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Fully show. Casting because because. Because they believe that you are irresponsible and can. Yeah, yeah, but no joke. You what do you do? You even own a jacket? Yeah, yeah. Someone can meet you in the car. Like where's your. Yeah. Can you do a high. You know what I'm saying. Can you take the 200%. Yeah 100. So there's there's always that, there's always those stats that. a person in 2025 can still fresh in their mind.

We don't even need to go as far as apartheid is. But I always think people get lost in the stats. There's very simple stats in this country. White people are the minority, white people as a minority, they're the most educated as a number of people than black people. They have gainful employment more than black people. They outgun us, they out wealth us. They outlive us. People forget the word live, which is really important. in terms of medical health care, in terms of nutrition, in terms of a lack of.

because early childhood malnutrition is what stunned so many young black children. Yes, it's the first 5 to 6 years where you do not have enough food, and you and all of the early childhood nutrition research in the world talks. about how people are physically stunted, they're mentally stunted. Mentally is the big one if you don't have it. Totally. Yeah. But I mean, the other thing. that we were talking about around the Piers Morgan thing is. the safest people in South Africa are white men. Yes, because of all the infrastructure which creates secure neighborhoods,

high walls, electric fences, good, safe working environments. Good, cause. But, Yeah, well, sometimes violence, sometimes. Sometimes firearms. But then and and in the most vulnerable, a black woman. because, again, the least protected in the most destitute conditions very. Very close to. And most vulnerable at the same time. Yes. And in all communities as well. Yes. Yeah, yeah. So I always say to people, if you want to know what equality looks like, drive around any township, any black neighborhood or anywhere where.

there's black men gathered as a group, whether they're traveling. together, going to watch soccer and tell me what size pants they were. Just as a as an average between all of them in townships and in squatter camps. Very small, very thin. That's malnutrition. You can put them next to their counterpart, who is of another, especially white and from muscle mass to the size of their pants. Not being overweight. The size of that bag. Yeah, I know what you mean. Yeah, that's that's that's what tells you what this systematic system. has been able to do and still survives and thrives under these conditions.

because of what they eat, what they know, how much they walk versus how much they exercise. Yeah. Because if if hard work was a real thing, most black women that spend. most of their youth. in transit from four in the morning up until six in the evening would be wealthy. Yeah. So I've done by any anyone. Everyone tells me, you know, do work hard. I'm like, I know plenty of people doing well that don't work hard at all. And I know enough. people just go on the highway and see what who's in a bus and a minibus. and even even middle class black women now are working harder.

Yeah. And they're still working. and complaining about being underpaid and having more responsibilities. and still finding themselves in this situation. When I go to self-defense classes and I and I'm in a group and I'm usually. What are you teaching? Or you know what? I'm I tend to be okay. And I'm and I'm one of a two of 20. And I see how to identify a threat and I'm like, hold on. You talking about me here? I don't see a threat the same way. Yeah. My other counterparts in this training course see a threat when I'm driving.

I'm not as paranoid. I don't look around at a black guy crossing a car. But you know why? Yes, you know why. Yes, it comes back to the flattening of people. Tell us more. The the flattening of people is. It's as simple as the flattening of people. Listen to this podcast. I know. I know, I guess, but yeah, I'll tell you. I'll tell you what. So I remember years ago I read a paper that was breaking down. what was commonly referred to as like a racist stereotype.

You know, where people go, all Asians look the same, right? And so someone went out and actually did a study. and they found that to people who have never grown up. with any Asian people around them, all Asians do look the same. because you are unable to differentiate. the features and you're unable yeah, you're unable to distinguish them. So it's an exposure problem. It's completely an exposure thing. And then they tracked it between people and they found it's not that one. race of people is inherently unable or able to identify another group.

It's all just about exposure. Right. So you come back to South Africa. Black people were forcibly exposed in a section to white people. Yeah, right. Because they had to work for them. That's work in the mines. They had to work in the houses. They had to work, you know what I mean? But that's still a sliver of them. Many black people lived a life completely isolated from white people. And so many black people, funnily enough, can't tell the difference. Like half of my family cannot tell the difference. between any of my white friends. Like if I brought you then now to my house,

I promise you, some of them would go, this is nice to see you again. I should have got this. I should have got to go. Oh, nice to see you again. Then I'll be like, no, this is not him. I mean, I am a redhead, so it's. Like, my friend. Like my friend. They'll just pick on that day in particular, there was something not. Did she say something? Yes, but he did. He been doing something. Hey. Oh, it's your jacket. No, but. And I used to be shocked. I'd be like, I'd be so shocked by how, like, half my family. Then when I sat with it and I went, oh, wow,

these are all the people in my family who were never exposed to white people. Right. And the flip happens. Now you look at it through the lens of crime, right? You live in a country where from your birth, you were kept away from black people. You were not shown black people. except to say like, this is the far the danger, the threats. Right? You were never introduced to black people. You were never. There was no meaningful interaction with black people. The country then becomes integrated. Now South Africa is a rainbow nation.

We're all together, but we're not. We all know. Correct. So there was white flight. White people immediately. fled to little enclaves where they're like, can we be safe here and now? There were fewer black people that they were interacting with. But now what happens? Where are the only black people? They interact with a beggar at the street corner and somebody who's. robbing them a teller, somebody who's serving them, cleaning somebody who's. But these are not human interactions where you actually study. another person's features and you look at it, it's not it's not.

Yeah. It's a it's not a space where you see the human on the other side encounter. Right. Exactly. It's just like a fleeting encounter. Yeah. And so the one thing I think of, and I know it's like a weird way. to phrase it, but when I feel sorry or understanding for white people as I go, if you're only interaction with black people is when they rob you, you will then think that crime is black. because you, even apart from. your actions, have been part of a system that didn't let you hang out with.

You know what I mean? Because it's not like white people were allowed, you know what I mean? To be fair, white people weren't allowed to hang out with black people. And I always got like one of the worst things that happened. Also a crime, that association was a crime. One of the one of the strangest things about racism that we forget is, and I think I will attribute this quote, Ryan, was Nelson Mandela, who said he learned in his time in Robben Island. that one of the hardest aspects of racism. This is not the quote, but basically he was saying is. So it wasn't him. Not I'll tell you when it starts.

I'll tell you when. I'll tell you when the quote starts, because I'm giving you the context first. He spent a lot of. he spent a lot of time at Robben Island, a lot of like pretty much all his time. And, he made friends with most of his prison guards. Yeah. And it got to the point where at Robben Island, they knew. that the administration knew you could not let. Nelson Mandela or any of his cohorts associate with a prison guard for longer. than, like, a few months, because the prison guards started to see them as human beings,

and they started to treat them differently. Right. Because Mandela would greet them, he'd ask them about their families. He would talk about himself as a human being. He'd wish them happy birthday. But it wasn't just him. Yeah, people make it seem like Mandela was the same guy. No, he was cohorts. He was a human. That's all he was. He was just being a human. Yeah. And the other other people who were imprisoned with him. would do the same thing, to the point where the prison guards went. What is there? This guy did again? Yeah. Like he doesn't seem like the.

Yeah. The animal that you said he is. Because bigotry requires dehumanization. And separation of the big one. So no exposure. No exposure. Allows for dehumanization, no. Exposure. And so they did that. And that's. when Mandela said in that process, he learned that in a system of oppression, you have to free not only the prisoner but also the god. Correct. And that's the thing. I think we never like, we really never get into in South Africa. And I see it in the US as well, is that.

white people. are also suffering from a system that was created by their ancestors. in India because now I'm like, yo, white people are terrified in a way that they don't have to be. I know this is gonna sound crazy. You're not being hijacked because you're white. You're being hijacked because you have the car that the people want. Now you must ask yourself why you have that call. I'm not saying blame yourself, but I'm just saying. the chances of you being robbed. or hijacked are directly proportional to how much things you have. You having the things is directly proportional.

to how much you benefited from the system before you. But again, I'm not saying it's your fault. The effect of the system is that you experience it as a race attack. Yes, you experiences as because of your skin color, because you're. Like, how else is this happening? It's not happening to anyone else is how you're seeing it. And then the people you hang out with, they also white. They also got robbed. They also got someone kidnaped. They also. So you go, this happens to us. You get what I'm saying? Yeah. No 100%. I think that's why even at that young age, I was not impressed by Tony. winning an Oscar.

I was like, this is a movie. Yeah. The movie. Yeah. Plays into the. Plays into the fantasy. And this. Yeah, they are angry and jumping walls and taking things because they are. on the other side of it. And the. Miracle. Is that this animal brought the baby back like we never thought. He was the mirror. They do that. Oh, wow. You see, we didn't know. That person. Could do that. Yeah, I thought that was. That was cosplaying as a racist. Hahahahaha. Then symmetries.

I don't know, they. This is a safe space. Then it's very safe. I bring my kids here all the time. But yeah, you're right. Yes. So the the the where those situations where there were more movies about that. and theories and the incentivization to create. stereotypes is very huge in this country in television. And I'm glad in my house we don't stream television. But I'm saying in this country, everywhere in this country know we. Live with the full factor.

You know, when I go to your U.S and watch your TV, I'm like, you guys are not watching TV, you're watching commercials the whole day to night. Yeah, we watch reality shows that purport the stereotype. of how black single women behave or about how taxi drivers behave on taxi. Oh nice. And about women with taxi owners and people who are fighting for a home. in the township. All those rhetorics are alive and happening and seasons get renewed. Season ten of people fighting for a family home in the township. You know what about so you don't know, you know. You know, it's funny when you say that. I realize sometimes when you have these conversations with people.

You just. Do this next time you're hanging out in a in a group of South Africans. Who have three microphones. And if you want. Okay, so you have the phone, right? But like. If you sit around and have these conversations. Right, if you sit. Around and have these conversations, notice how differently people respond when you include yourself. in being aggrieved, right? Yes, yes, depending on the color of your skin, it's a really crazy thing. Yeah. So I will see a white South.

African say and it doesn't always happen, but when it does, it's really funny. White South Africans go, yeah man, this crime I, you know, I don't feel safe and blah blah. Another white South African go. Yeah me too. I just you know, it's just it's terrible. And then a black South African will say yeah hey you never know when they coming. And then the white South Africans will look at them like. I mean. They'll look at them like, no, no, but we but we like a freedom, you know what I mean? They, they sometimes they look at a black person like. No, but you can like, it's your cousin.

You can, you can ask him, not them. You can ask him not to take your car. I can't do anything, okay? I can't do anything. Think about it. My biggie. It's just you. It's you and your cousin. You're safe. And white. People think. White people think that, black people's houses are burglar bars to keep them in. Yes, yes, but but you know what? It's a it's and I think. I think I feel sorry for this man. No, but but you know. What I mean. It's like, to your point, I think I think that's, that's. maybe one of the greatest disservice and injustice as we did in our system.

And by the way, I am somebody who's actually quite for what happened with the TRC. I know a lot of people have issues and a lot of people go, was wrong in this, in this, in this. I think it was innovative. I think it was the first time it's ever been done. I don't think it's ever been done anywhere else, but. Not in that way. Yeah. People always try and propose it. Yeah. But I think with any system or any idea, there's going to be the implementation. and you realize, oh, we could improve on that. Like a constitution, you can always improve a constitution.

But it's a starting point. Especially the part that says South Africa belongs to everyone who lives it. You know, like that. But, no. Okay. Yeah. This is a conversation for another day. That's a podcast. It's a conversation for another, you know. So, so, so what I mean is, like, you can always improve execution. You can always improve an idea. I think the TRC. Yeah. First time out. My goodness, what an attempt to mend. and to bridge the gaps in a nation where people were separated.

in a way that most nations have never experienced. Right. But I think the one thing we have yet to do and we have never done is gone. Hey, what is that? Exposure therapy that people need. Yeah. And and like sort of an involuntary exposure therapy. Yeah. You know, I was talking to a friend of mine the other day, Dale, and we were talking about how at our school they had a program where. because we were the first generation, that was like, literally,

you and I were the first generation. How old are you then? 31. 31. Yeah. So we were the first generation of kids that went to school. with kids of a different race. Yeah, yeah, yeah, literally. I sometimes think about how crazy that was when I go like literally. the first year in my school that there were black kids, Indian kids, colored kids. with white kids, and that was the first time that had ever happened. You guys were around when you were the first child. We were literally an experiment. Yo, I was just so wrong. Our teachers had never seen a black child in front of them in a classroom before.

Our parents had to wear their Sunday best yo. The first drop off it. Drop off. Our peers didn't even know what a drop off was. I mean, drop. Off cry, you know you think. But just think about that as a concept. I remember being shocked that when I went to school. When. Kids were dropped off by their parents in a vehicle that they owned, but like, one child got out of one car. Meanwhile, when the black kids got there, it looked like a circus trick. with like one car and that open a door.

And then like a mini. You 15 you. And that's how we just traveled around the back of every bucket. The back of every van was all of us, you know what I mean? But that exposure, like our school had this program where they went, we want every kid. to go and stay at another kid's house who they're friends with. They won't even like they don't like a stranger. Yeah, but they said, hey, you guys are friends. But it was a deliberate program, yo. Yeah, it was amazing to see. to talking about, like, exposure therapy. It was amazing to see how the black kids weren't particularly.

surprised by what they experienced, because many of them had moms. who were working for white people. So they had seen a glimpse of a. White like sense of it. Yeah, for sure. Let me tell you something. Every single white kid who went to go in. live with a black family for a weekend, every single one of them went home and said the same thing. They said, Mom and dad, do you know how black people live and not in like a righteous way? Just as like a child? Like the curious way, like a. 14 year old, 15 year old.

They went, you didn't. Do you know how they live? Do you know how they come to school every day? Do you know that they have to take three busses to get. Have people with strangers? Do you know that they don't have hot water in the morning at their house? You have to make a fire and then heat it up, and then they call that out. And then you have to do it again for each person, and they have to, you know, they they don't have their own bathrooms. You know, that their toilets outside. I go to school with this kid. I see myself as direct, like competition in that way.

Yeah, but I'm going, how is he doing math when he woke up like that? Does it in the dark. How is he playing cricket with me? Yeah, or playing soccer with me? How does he have the energy when he ate like that? And that goes back to the conversation you had with that guy. in London about, like, starting completely equal from from scratch. and about by laws and redress laws and justice and transformation laws. It's that exact conversation. We're going to continue this conversation right after this short break.

Trevor, I wanted to, I wanted to suggest something, though, because we've been talking about exposure, but there's something along with that. which is about getting South Africans to empathize with each other. So a positive example is the Springboks. If we all feel proud of the Springboks for like making South Africans. like it cool and like good to be South Africans, to be proud. But like ironically, one thing that quite often. doesn't perfectly cut through all or classes in a captive society but.

does further than anything else degrade empathy is service delivery failure. Yeah. So one of the best ways for South Africans to empathically get together. is to go fuck Eskom. Yes, and go fuck the police. Yes, I have seen black and white Africans scoring. Eskom has brought us together like. No, no it has. It's a joke and it's the truth, right? True right. It's true. A common agreement that the ANC has failed us in. terms of service delivery and other things that, you know, potholes on the road.

Can I tell you what I like about Eskom more than the ANC? Yes, the ANC is politics. So what ends up happening. is people then fall into that trap of making it a synonym for black. Yes. So they go look at what the ANC has done to South Africa. Then you go like then a black person will say, yeah, no way. I'm going to start my own political party. Then they're like, no, no, but you might do the same thing. I mean, look at what. The ANC has done. And then you're like, oh, okay. You're using a what I like about Eskom is it's. this nameless, faceless power utility.

Yeah, yeah. And what it has done and this is something that is like it's it's crazy to say. But Eskom, the power provider in South Africa, has done something that has never happened in South Africa. It has made every South African experience. the same thing, regardless of the color of their skin. Exactly. This is the first time in our history. when a black person and a white person can sit together and go, your stage eight.

We have the exact same problem. Yeah. And to your point, we take for granted how it's said that it has to be a problem, but it's like that is something that is so fundamentally powerful. is for two people to go, hey man, you live in a township. I live. in a suburb, but we both we take Eskom, we. Get it kind of amazing. And those are the small victories that South Africans we tend to miss. I mean, the biggest victory for the TRC. was not justice, which would have been great. for the victims and the families of the victims.

But overall for South Africans was to see these authoritarians. who are backed by the state machinery, to decimate. black people, being told to sit down and shut the fuck up. Damn, that had never happened. It happened live with everyone watching. Desmond Tutu and whoever was in the Pan Am you. This is not flag plus you. You're going to sit down, you are going to listen. and you're going to answer these questions. That was the overall resounding victory for all South Africans watching, not the fact that they point us to the grave.

So if their protest was to bait for us and stay the course. and not snitch on each other, well, that's for him in his grave to take to. But for us as South Africans, as we're all watching, and we saw this. mild mannered man, Desmond Tutu, disabling them with kindness, but subtly telling them as well. to sit down and shut the fuck up for the first time ever. That was more powerful to South Africans than Mandela's fist in the air. After wearing his wife's glasses standing outside the library in Cannes. You know, those one of.

Good friends listen that he looked up to his car after pulling. Up in the Cressida, you know, so those that for us. as as black people were sitting there all together and was repeating this cycle. Yeah. What's their. Biggest victory. Do you think it's not the same. But we're talking about things that provide unity and agreement. Yeah. Do you think that the largely black South African led but many different. race groups in South Africa communally telling the refugees to talk. since tech was similar, it was like, you guys fuck off. Yes.

We don't want you here. You're completely wrong. We all agree that you've benefited by going to America off of a lie. that we all as a country, reject. Yes, we. All as a country, we also a country, say. farmers are not disproportionate or more brutal than all other murders. And well, you see, but even even though. There's no chance. If you pause, I think it's also this is like something that's guys branding, man. If there's one thing I've learned. in observing American politics who don't mess around with branding, especially right wing, as you say, right wing branding is flawless.

You know what I mean? Left wing. Brand, right and tested left. Wing. Left wing branding is often academic, and it's like ephemeral at best. It's like, what does that mean? You need a slogan, you. Know, just think about it for a second, guys. Farm murders. Guys. Why is a murder labeled differently than any other murder totally white genocide? But but I'm like, guys, there. are murders happening every single day in South Africa, everywhere. They've never been given a special title. Also, farm murders implies owners when most of them are laborers. or people who just happen to live on the farm.

Yes, but the branding is wink nudge suggestive. that it is the owners who are wink nudge whites. And you right? To add to that. But robberies and farms are actually the problem, and the same farmers. are not willing to disclose what is being robbed in those farms. As we all know, puns are not cash flash businesses. There's a tractor, there's a buggy. Yeah, there's equipment, but what else is there inside your game farm. that is worth more than your car in a safe this big?

And it's also. What is it? Firearms. I don't know the stats of ownership of firearms, but. They are expensive. Yeah, they are very expensive. Yeah. The robbery is of the firearm. So if you have to think about someone who has a cachet of firearms. because they cater to kids that come from overseas that can fly in there. Oh yeah. That's ridiculous. And the buffaloes, now there's four, 500,000 rands. with a firearms and ammunition in a safe, and you've got laborers that don't live. or that are not registered to be in this country right next to the border. of the place where they come from. Guess what they want to take in your house?

Something that's also I mean, what. About your iPhone? Yeah, for sure. For sure. And I mean, the nature of rural South Africa is that very, very often. a farm is the only place with any kind of asset value for 100km². And everybody else living in that area are impoverished people living in townships. And that's just a crime story about class. If you only have one really successful, high value asset business in a whole area. where everyone else doesn't have food to eat, what do you think's going to happen? It's like completely a class dynamic function. Yeah. Happening in rural areas where the farms are the only places.

worth rubbing because that's the only places of any kind of value. Yeah. But I think sometimes when we say that we, we actually, lose part of an argument, it muddies it. I'll tell you why. So sometimes when we say these things, it makes people go, oh, so you're saying I'm only getting robbed. because I have the money? Yeah, but I don't want to be robbed. I don't want to be killed. You get I'm saying no, no, and that's not what you're saying. I know this is going to sound crazy, but I think people need to understand.

In South Africa, I'll say there's two statements. Number one, crime affects everyone. Do you know what I mean? Crime is not is not going to discriminate against your race, your. but to your point, the people who are least affected by crime in South Africa. Oh, white men. Yeah. The same ones who are crying the most. Yeah. And by the way, you know what I mean. And this is my particular. Our crime does not discriminate. In fact, you remember that story of, who was that guy. who came to South Africa on a honeymoon and in the shrine to Vani.

Do you remember the story? Number one, he loves his wife. Dies in the. So, yes. Remember when you love this jacket? I love the jacket. We love this jacket. We. I love this jacket. Thank you. Okay, so. So why don't just go recording on it? You need. so friend divine story. For those who don't know, Shirin Divine was. It was a story of, I think it was an English national. And he came to, South Africa for his honeymoon.

And then he was he was on honeymoon with his with his new wife. And then she was tragically killed. And his story was that they got kidnaped by South Africans. when black South Africans kidnaped them and then murdered her, and then he escaped. Somehow they let him go, and he was. And that was that was a story. And I will never forget this till the day I die, because it's one of the one of the darkest. It's like macabre because it's dark, but it's strangely funny, especially the further you get from a time wise. Literally, South Africans were like, no, no, if they killed her, they like.

Would kill you also. Yeah, you're the biggest threat. Yeah, as a man. And he was like, no, they killed her. But then they left. They're like, yeah. Yeah, yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah. And and in the same way I say that it's like the same thing. I go like with this, you know, white genocide. It's like guys, guys guys guys guys here our crime comes for everyone. We here we have democratic crime. Have something equal opportunity and discriminate. Run our. Crime. It's not black empowered as much white disempowered. Have something.

Someone will try and take it from you. Now, we're not saying we're for that, but we are saying that it's. You know what I mean? That's that's the reality of it is like we're living in a world. But I would love to go back to what you're saying about like the shared empathy. Is I mean, is there actually a way that that can happen. What do you mean actually. So you were saying like the Springboks you know like the national rugby. team, I will say this is just and this is just like a side opinion of mine. I personally blame Bafana Bafana. Yes of course. Personally. Personally if you look at South Africa's story, our worst moments,

the democratic South Africa, our worst moments happen when Bafana Bafana worst. Yeah, engaging me too much on this what I'm saying. But then look at what I'm saying. Bafana Bafana okay, our. Our soccer team is when it's our football team guys. When it's at its worst, the country, that team has an outsized. weight on his shoulders that I think they need to acknowledge.

And Kaizer Chiefs. Guys. You look at you look at you. Look at 2010. You know what part of the reason why 2010 was so good for us? Because we were in the World Cup. We didn't have to qualify for us. We were definitely going to be in it. Two years, 1998, that whole period, that honeymoon, what. We. What were we doing as the soccer team in the country? We were winning. Do you get what I'm saying? And I think I know this is a stretch, but I do think there's. also an element in South Africa of when the rugby team wins.

The whites have won. Blacks support the rugby team as well. But the apparatus of it is still seen as like, oh the white institution did a thing right. When the cricket team wins they go yeah. You see the white thing won. When Bafana Bafana loses guys crime. You see those. Crimes. Yeah. Did you see how they were playing. Yeah. It's crime that the. And I'm being serious. Yeah yeah. And that's why I say like Bafana I'm like Bafana Bafana has an outsized. influence on how the country sees itself. Many of my Brazilian friends have said the same thing.

They go, they go. When the Brazilian national team is doing well, Brazil is doing well. Yeah, when we're doing terribly, you'll see more protests, more violence, more everything. And it might just be confirmation bias. But I do think there's something to how the collective experiences. it's reality based on like a few. I think it's a consensus decision of how we're doing expressed in a very, very small, representative example that makes us feel proud. Yes. That's true. It's like it's like, our very. best or the best at the world, at a thing that the world cares about.

And soccer is the most extreme version of that, because soccer is bigger than any religion. It's bigger than any nation. It's the most practiced cultural thing on the planet. And we are a football nation first and foremost, particularly amongst black. South Africans. Being a football nation first and foremost. And so if football, soccer our best 11 the boys Bafana, our best stock are good, we feel good. But if our best offering is getting trashed by or, say, drawing with less.

and no disrespect to the South to, but that's what the kids feel about it. Was heavy. Disrespect. I think. You see how South Africans talk. About it and it's not like this. So too is. not in your shop. I can't. okay, yeah, I get to the guy. Yeah. You for Lee? Yeah. I'm just saying we all saw how South Africa even back South African talk.

when the. Stooges said they wanted half. Of the state back. We all saw that. No, but what I'm saying is it speaks. To our pride in ourselves, our own self value, even if we are not. Actually. Right the same way that that like, frankly, and this is both funny and not a joke. When Kaizer Chiefs won the Nedbank Cup first victory in ten years, many nine year old kids saw their dads happier. than they had ever seen them in their whole life. That's true. There were nine. Year olds who had seen their dads joyful, truly.

in a childlike manner for the first time in their whole lives. Because of that one resounding victory. Exactly. And I think about. The kind of. Stuff the terrible nine year olds should have done better. Yeah, once. They should have been. The way they. Should have made their parents happier. But what I'm trying to say. Is right, when. Tyler does really well, it does have a psychic. Emotional. Effect on how we feel when you do really well, it has a psychic. I do have a question for you. Shoot. Sorry. I've been. I've, I thought of this a bit earlier, but like.

with your success, it made so many of us feel proud. Not just people in the industry, but South Africans going our very best are at the level of the very best. And so we were all very and remain. deeply invested in you as a project, as a successful person. Charlize Theron is the same, Tyler is the same. But what I've been thinking about with you recently. is that you're almost like Captain South Africa. To South Africans, you're like Captain America. because you are our guy who went to the world.

and showed America what it was like to look at America from outside of it. And you became the center of all of these massive, vital discussions about race and class and world identity and stuff. And so people expect you to be our Captain America, our shield, the one who defends us in the face of. everything, almost has to do country duty, patriotic duty. People say, oh, Trevor must tell Trump that he's wrong about South Africa. Trevor must tell Elon Musk to stop doing this. Yeah, and I want I've always genuinely wanted.

to ask what that's like for you because there's this weird thing that's. you need to be our greatest South African patriots. because of how we as a country conceive of you. And I'm quite interested to know what that's like for you to go through. So let me start by saying this. If I meet Trump one on one. Our guys on site. Here, guys, I mean, I'm telling him. telling him everything. Everything. You hear us?

Ha ha ha. Hey, hey, when the. wait. Are you telling me that Trump will learn what this means from you, my man? Trump? Trump knows it. Well, you know he's halfway there. But when I, when I when. we build those those things, we also. Use. No no no no. You know, I mean you're very kind. I think. How do I think of it for me. So the first and most important thing is.

I do not believe most of the hype. Okay. Because I have friends who humble me very regularly, so. No, but but but but. but but on the real is I go one of the, one of the most beautiful things. I've learned throughout history is how the stories that we flattened. to, sort of like lift up individuals, oftentimes a much more complex tapestry than we think.

So we say Nelson Mandela. But if we're honest, the list of names that is in and around. it is, is so massive that you're like, oh, this guy was not really like the the thing not. It didn't live and die by him. No. And now I'm not saying Nelson, I'm not going to be like, oh, Nelson Mandela didn't do much. No, I'm not saying that. But I'm saying you forget that this was an apparatus. You forget that this was strategic. Martin Luther King Junior, another example. You know, everyone from his wife. And this is often the case, by the way, with many of these great men,

the wife is the person who's doing like most of, if not half of the work. or more, and their name doesn't live on in the exact same way. You know, writing the speeches, building the strategy, fighting when they're in prison for 27 years, etc.. So I think it's easy for people to think of Captain America, but I'm like, yo, man, the wakandans made that shield, you know what I mean? Who's that vibranium coming from? Do you know who built this? Cuz that guy doesn't know how to make a costume. Who put him in that fridge? Who pumped that medicine into his veins? Who made him?

The guy went to training. Who's training him? How did. So I think if you ever make the mistake of thinking. that you as an individual or a superhero, you then forget every little piece of the puzzle that came together. to make you who you are? So I just go, I'm just, I like I love football. So for me, life football is an analogy for life always. But I go, the thing I love about football, soccer, the sport is you really learn. very quickly. You are just in a team.

Every position on the. team, vital, vital strikers get all the credit. When all the credit. Goes all. The time. You're men, strikers get all the credit. But let me tell you something. Good luck being a striker who gets all the credit. when your defender lets you down, when your midfielder lets you down, when your goalkeeper lets you down. Just good luck. Oh man. So for me, genuinely, I and it helps me alleviate. some of the pressure because I go I don't take the acclaim the same way. I don't take the pressure because I go, you can be grateful. I'm like, hey, thank you. I did my best and I'm honored that anyone could think that.

But at the same time, when someone's like, oh, you must tell them. I do think it's funny. It's almost like, Imma tell Trump. Then I'm like, my man. I would love to see the world. You think I love them. I love the fact that you think I live next door to the white House. Yeah. And then every morning I drive out and Trump is the. People say I my, I wish that was the case. I'm not. Visualizing that. Sorry, but I'm saying sorry. I got I got sorry. I look no, I.

Wish that was the case but I but I yeah, I think. I just think it's an interesting thing that you go through. in, in the way that South Africans perceive of you versus. What. Yeah. I'm with you. But I also. The truth of your career. I also find it's also semi generational. Oh interesting. There are many South Africans. who are certain generation who sort of don't see me like that. They just see me as like a fun ambassador, like our kid who made it right. There's people who are older than me who go like, oh well done Bafana, well done then the people who are my age or like are my men.

All right. Nice to see you. I've seen younger ones are just like I'm like a mythical figure to them. I honestly think everyone has a role to play. And I don't mean this in, like, a, like, a kumbaya kind of way. I think everyone has a role to play, and we take for granted. how much of an impact that role has. We all take it for granted, but that's something that my mom left. with me, like, man, and you and I have a similar story with like our moms. met my mom. I remember we'd, like, go somewhere random,

a school that's got a church event on a weekend. So it's a school, but it's not church for the weekend. We'd walk in onto the grounds, there'd be papers lying on the ground, you know, like packets of chips. that have been thrown away by the school kids. My mom would start picking them up because these things are infinite. As the wind blows, so do they. My mom would start picking them up. Outstanding. Like, what are you? What are you doing? It's a Sunday. We here for a church? She'd be like, I wanna help me, but I'm like, mom, first of all, it's not our school. It's a Sunday.

Come on man, she's like, hey, then I'm like. And then she would always say, If I'm not going to clean it, who's going to clean it then? Because everyone else is walking past you saying, it's not my problem. And I. think we take for granted and this is, this is where it's like difficult in life. And I think it's for all things. Yeah. It's you and your personal relationships. It's you and your community. You and your society, you as a nation. Two things can be true at the same time. There's a duality that exists that's difficult for people to deal with, because sometimes we're fighting against someone who's trying to flatten it.

And so then we become flat ourselves. Yeah. So someone goes, there's a genocide of white people in South Africa, and then you go like, South Africa's great. There's a. then you're like, now. you can't address the things that are happening in South Africa. because this person is trying to flatten it. You want to deal with the corruption in the government, but you know. when you say, yes, there's corruption, they go, yes, the blacks. Then you're like, no, you're using my acknowledgment to empower your racism.

But I'm actually trying to work on a problem that needs to be solved. Do you know what I mean? And so I think if you think of it in those small interactions, like guys, white people take for granted, you know, you said in the beginning, Eugene, white people take for granted how much. leeway. and grace black people have given them in South Africa. And not like a you're lucky thing, but like as an ubuntu thing. Like like real levels of it's real.

And some of it is, you know, internalized oppression, maybe, but some of it is just like you're men. We're still people. Yes, we're still people. And I think like a white person, the average white person takes for granted how their tone of voice, the way they interact with a black person, the way they are. And I've seen the difference. I've seen some white people who think the person. who cleans their house is lucky to have that job. Yeah. And then I've seen white people who go, yo, man, this person has been cleaning my family's home.

for maybe two generations. Even. Yeah. This person has watched and raised my children. This person has cooked food for my entire family. for decades. How is it that they still don't have a driver's license? Yeah, I mean. How is it that this person who has watched us, they've moved houses with us. Relocated their lives? But how is it that this person hasn't moved houses?

Yeah. So what has happened in our world. Because now if that person was a blood relative, I don't think you would be as proud of yourself. Yeah for sure. I don't think you'd be able to look at yourself going like oh yeah. No my, my aunt has lived with us for 40 years. She raised me and my and my brothers and sisters because they. Can their own bodies and their livelihood. Every day when she goes home, she walks. for ten, 20 minutes, then catches a transport to then. to another transport to another transport that takes over 3.5 hours to get home.

Yeah, that's my aunt. Yeah. No one would be proud of that. Wouldn't tolerate it either. Wouldn't allow it to happen. And so that that sorry to know. even the the safety conversation. with domestic workers versus the people that other people. that live in the house where a family member, a man. they would know how to protect themselves with, if I am, is where the panic button. is within who to call, but the person who stays there in the house alone? Yes, apparently according to people they exempt to being violated. But here's my thing. They answer to your point. Actually, to expand on that. And you do say this, then I think it's important to hit on.

Yeah. There are so many times when these farm murders are spoken about. and the same people who are going, talking to Trump, going around the world, parading the story, they completely ignore. everyone else who also lost their lives in that same robbery. or that that same attack. Yeah, totally. A house on a farm was robbed. Yeah. Was raided. Yeah. The people who were on it were killed. Two of them, maybe three of them, maybe were white.

The remaining people aren't even counted. And I always say to people, that's probably one of the greatest injustices. that black people have suffered throughout time. Yeah. Is that even in the worst atrocities. go to the Holocaust, Germans counted Jewish people meticulously. We've got a book and numbers. The same Germans in Namibia estimates. How many black people were killed in those concentration camps? Estimates? Yeah, we still don't know. We still don't even we know numbers from even the slave trade was because of books.

Yeah, because of stock accounting. But not. Even. But not accounting of humans. Accounting of money because you need to sell. Yes, but I'm saying like that. That's and I think that's one of the big things. in South Africa is like if, if we if we think of it that way, it's not saying to a white person, be guilty, don't forget guilt. Leave it. Forget guilt for a moment. because guilt now makes it. Then it's easy for someone to be like, but I wasn't. Yeah, I wasn't. Yeah, yeah it's fine my man. Why do they. It's fine. Why, why.

why do. I also wish. Which part of the syllabus is it for white female teachers that teaches them. These two lines are two way nine. Yeah. And I say no. They should be. Yeah. Yeah. But you see that's. Where. Does that. But all of that come from. All of that's. What makes it okay for. Yes. A person of authority to stand in front of a class. where school fees are being paid and all of that and say those words.

without consequence are La Reina. Yes. It's not actually been here. But because remember. What is actually been. But that's my thing is. she's right. It's not a she been here and shebeens are allowed places but in that instance not. Ideal teaching environment. Yeah but but in that instance you are using shebeen as a synonym for what. This is not a place of blackness. Men don't be black. Yeah man. Yeah. I want to off of what you just said about the uncaring this towards black death.

versus the hyper fixation on white death or like victims of white crime, one of the, the the great things that frustrates me about South Africa is that overwhelming. mainstream media obsesses over and cares over white. suffering in a way that they don't over black suffering. So I often say, if a black person sneezes near a white person, it's a news headline, whereas many black people will die and it won't even become a report. No. So that comes from during apartheid. All of the massive media companies, their their buying audience was white readers.

What happened? All of the race. But since apartheid, the capitalist incentive to continue to cater. to a paying, reading literate, highly educated audience has meant. obsession over whites plight without reporting on black death. and black suffering and impoverished people's suffering. And then it also comes down to something that you always talk about with, which is language, which is so important. because if broadly, the biggest media in the country. and the hyper commercialized media is broadcasting in English, in Afrikaans,

it's just less likely that anyone's ever going to think, what does the Zulu community want to read about? Yeah. What does a community care about? Which often then means people dying, people really, really suffering. And so if you come to South Africa and you read our biggest news, sites, 365 days of the year, something extra ordinarily. horrific needs to happen to a black person before it's news. Yes. Something unbelievably unsuitable. Bester needs to happen. Yeah, yeah.

You hear about that where. It needs to. Happen. Exactly. Whereas whereas smaller infractions and again, whenever we talk about crime, as you said earlier, we can't debase it. We can't. I'm not saying that these crimes don't matter. I'm just saying smaller less. harmful crimes when white people are the victims, become explosions. Yeah. And for that explosion to happen for a black victim, yeah, it needs to be horrific. Like, think about how terrible Bester. Never, ever. And there are other reasons why the Oscar Pistorius case was so massive.

But best of us, Oscar Pistorius. And I know it's horrible to bean count when people have died. But Tavo Bester, all of his victims, the horrific shit that he did. for such a long time versus the coverage of Oscar Pistorius. because Reeva was a white victim and again, not debasing Reeva at all. The judge do everything. But I'm trying to talk about is how South Africa's. media needs to change to care about black suffering properly. And they may actually find out that that's in a purely capitalistic way, really good business,

because most people in South Africa are black. and want to know about their lives and their lived experience. No, what Dennis saying is absolutely true. And I even go a step further and say there's a systematic way. that the media has kept the white, the black majority that is influential. And it's supposed to technology busy and distracted, because every time something happens that's big, something else happens in the pipeline. that kind of distracts us from this whole thing. For example, as black people, we are forced to always take the moral high ground when things happen.

Apartheid. We are being told we must be emotionally mature. It wasn't me. It was the system. Now you guys are in schools. Yes. But I'm like, no. Now you expecting me to cure something that was caused by a system. with my emotions? So how about a system gets created to cure what that system managed to do, man? So we need a systematic problem. I mean, systematic solution for a systematic problem. And let me deal with my emotions and spend my time the way I like. But the fact that we are always distracted and when something happens, people go to a country and purport whatever they purport.

And then we look at our local economy and politics. Something seismic always happens right in the middle of that, and I'm. and I'm going with such a small country that that kind of manipulation can happen. Totally. And what I want to add to that looping back to the USA, looping back to the TRC, is one of the terrible things about the TRC that the country is. constantly being distracted away from is that many victims were awarded. financial restitution and have not got it yet. Till today. Wait was 2025. I didn't know that. And if. I didn't know that.

A single year, the remaining victim, the remaining people who were awarded financial compensation. What they haven't received, it's. And many of them have died now. And every year they get together and they demand from the justice upon. where is our money and they're dying. And the TRC you are talking about a first phase was beautiful. But since then. People. Who were who do not give an amnesty have not been charged. Inquiries are now being open, but it's 2025. The Cradock Four have been long dead in the ground,

and only now that case is being investigated when, in the early 2000s, those were the people who were supposed to be investigated first, and thousands and thousands of people who were awarded victims, who were awarded. financial compensation from the TRC are still begging the government. to give them the money that they should have got in like 2002. But we are so distracted as a country that that doesn't make the news. that you two, who are both very informed, didn't know about it. Yeah, I didn't know. That at all. And I only found out four months ago. because my brother was working at the kind of conference gathering.

where all of the victims came and said, where is our fucking money? And so, yes, we do need to talk about how South Africa also. I mean, I'm sure you guys saw recently South Africa is the most online country. in the world with the most fund addicted country in the world. In terms of screen time. We're like number one in the world. I did not see that. We're number one in like, corruption. And that's. Wow, I didn't see that. And rugby, those are all strings. But despite of all of that, we are a deeply, easily distracted nation. And that means that we don't know things as basic as there are.

victims of the TRC who have not yet got compensation in 2025, it's crazy. You know, when the byelections are there and there's no when the byelections are. they're not advertised. The parties discuss amongst themselves and then they go along, select the person. and the byelections have been ten people show up. The ward is one. So there's a lot of people. And I did say this. I sit in a pot images podcast. A few years ago I said there's a systematic, approach to distracting South Africans digitally. So this I've said this, it's on record.

So this fact that you're saying makes sense. I did say it. I said, if you maybe switch off your phone a little bit. and maybe not, look at the hashtags and not look at what videos are trending, maybe dig deeper. There's something there from every crisis that we've experienced in this country. It all starts out with something else happening pot building. Just now, what was it again? Bell Pottinger style, on the side, purporting to be something else. And then all of a sudden, we don't know that the. byelections happened or this person got a next as a mayor or Helen Zille. And I was trying to be the mayor of how. is it all after you've just done the roast? Now.

you're using that as a platform to launch a mash up in the same city that you. But we when we say this, we look like we're speaking from a place of privilege. And because we are speaking from a place of privilege, we can afford not to use technology as an escape code, but as a vessel to get this information. So but I think that is our problem right now in South Africa. I think it's our nature to be accepting, to be willing to try to forgive, to move forward. But we've never had our own house to ourselves. When the visitors have left and speak the truth amongst each other as a family.

and decide how we are going to do this live thing with the with the neighbors, and how we feel about the relatives who keep showing up and making it as. if all we've done here was waste our time and not build a wall that's high enough. That's what we need to be having in this country. But I feel like people like you then, and I'm not saying you as a white person. I'm saying you as a brave person to forsake everything that could go wrong. We live in that corporate world where calls will stop. because you said something that you were not supposed to say. and you're not toeing the line, but for you to say, I'm not doing this because I work for channel,

I'm not doing this because I'm white. I'm doing this because I know that is the ultimate sacrifice in the modern day era. It's not picking up an AK 47 and going through the trenches. and trying to live in Lusaka and fight from there. It's you saying something and people like us who want to say something. We're not going to be people's favorites cause I'm going to dry up a little bit. People are going to be offended in some way where they make a decision. But at the end of the day, we are saying what South Africans are not privileged enough to say. And that's one way where I think the middle class and the Mandela.

experience or experiment can be used when in unison. People who come from three different backgrounds. can sing with one voice and go, but are we looking carefully at what is being said? Yeah, yeah. I think that's incredibly kind. Thank you. What I will what I will. I love how every week a different political party is paying my bills. According to South Africa. I've had EFA stories Putin da freedom front plus like every week and. and and something that I like about what is starting to happen in South Africa.

is people are starting to recognize that there are that. there are people who are clearly bought and paid for and spoken for agenda. And you can spot it, you know, the position they going to take on everything, what they're going to talk about and not talk about. But slowly but surely what America has, which you know. better than I guess anyone else in this room is people. America has people who you probably know their politics, but you definitely know that they saying what they really think. because now and again, say Jon Stewart will say, fuck these Democrats. They're fucking this up so badly. South Africa is slowly getting to the point now where if you people like you.

who consistently say what they think and everyone goes, but that's not part of the agenda that I thought he was a part of. If you do that for long enough, eventually people will go, Ana, fuck you. Jean's just saying what he thinks, and then they can really believe what you think. because they don't think you're bought, paid for and spoken for. And that's my project is I just need to keep talking. I just need to keep saying exactly what I think. And after long enough, people will go, yeah, eight weeks of the year, we think is, I think 12 weeks of the year we think is day 20 weeks of the year.

We think he's McKay. He's probably just saying what he genuinely thinks, you see. But if people really know you. He's truly a member of the Rainbow Nation. Yeah, yeah. But if people ask what this guy's doing, if. People really know, then they know that his real money comes from collecting. all the checks of coming second and indistinctly lookalike competition. That's a deep cut, you see. I don't know, but let's go on as one of the bunch of the joke. I, Football is my religion. I know more about Eric Tinkler than I know about some of my siblings.

Brother. Like, I know it's. Do you think you think this guy? But of the joke men. Ladies and gents, the only reason. He's the button is because he'll shit on you. This way. He is shit on you from a high height. Yo, man. Dan. Thank you, man. Thanks for joining us. Thank you man. But to Eugene's point, thank because I think we take for granted. that any issue worth discussing or fighting. or moving in and around is not meant to be held by one person. Right? You know, and that's that's why I think we've we've always got to come around on these issues.

is if we think this is a white people thing, we've lost it. If we think it's a black people thing, we've lost it. It's like, no, no, no, it's a people thing. And I think speaking about it from everybody's perspective. just lends a little credence to it. And so that was really one of the reasons I want to talk to you, because I, I loved. just seeing from and I could see in your eyes. the moment when you're sitting with people on Piers Morgan, everyone has the the premise is like white genocide in South Africa, and immediately everyone proceeds to say there is no white genocide.

There's like literally everyone. calls out Saint-Jean, you know what it's the equivalent of in South Africa. It's like people have phoned. the police, called the police, and they said, so I'm getting murdered. Someone's murdering me right now. And the police come to their house and they go, where's the murder? And they go, okay, there's not actually a murder. But what I've got. What? Why don't you. Yeah. Can we talk about can we just talk about. how every time I come home, she tells me to put my shoes on and.

The police are like, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait wait wait. Where's the crime, though? Exactly? He's like, well, it's not a crime per se, but you can you not see how it could one day become a crime? And I think that's what a lot of these people did, which I'm glad you call out, is because they used the most heinous word they could think of. They used the word that would grab attention. to then expose. What if we're honest, are gripes gripes that everyone has a right to have? By the way, I'm not saying you shouldn't be angry. about crime equally, no, but the gripes that we share equally, and to your point.

and to what you said as well, we don't even shared equally because on the in South Africa, if you want to run to the white House and you want to ask them for help, talk about black women. Do you know what I'm saying? If you said to me like, hey, man, Trump is coming here. because what's happening to black women in South Africa is unacceptable, then I'll go, man, Trump, absolutely get in here and do your thing. Does that make sense? But you're not. You know what I mean. You've used your power and your access to it to go and argue about gripes. Because fundamentally, the last thing I'll say on this is.

I have never in my life. seen refugees with Samsonite luggage. I have never in my life. seen refugees fleeing a five bedroom house. You know what I mean? These, and I'm not saying it just in terms of wealth, because I understand as a refugee you can be pushed out, optionally. evacuating just because. And crucially, I've never seen a refugee leave his mother behind. He'll fetch her later. Bruh.

I've never seen a refugee doing viewings at their house on a Sunday afternoon. I mean, there's a three. Bedroom, but yeah, it's a lovely area. Yo bro, have you ever seen a refugee. Selling their quarry before they leave? It's your turn. You've never seen a refugee do it. These are the games we play in South Africa. Yes. Okay, I'll take it then. You'll get. I've never seen a refugee with cholesterol before. Ha ha ha. ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! That's good. I'm up there.

Thank you. Gentlemen. Oh, man. This is great. Dan. Eugene, this was too much fun. Quick confession. This actually wasn't the boob actually planning to kill you when you got here. But, that's why I brought you get. You know, I try and, to try and, you know, what? Did you. One of the good ones, man. You one of the good ones. Thanks, man. I appreciate it. What now with Trevor Noah is produced. by Spotify Studios in partnership with Day Zero Productions.

The show is executive produced by Trevor Noah, Shahnaz Yamin and Jody Avigan. Our senior producer is Jess Heckel. Claire Slaughter is our producer. Music mixing and mastering by Hannah Brown. Thank you so much for listening. Join me next Thursday for another episode of What Now?