The Reality of Fiction with Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie  | What Now? with Trevor Noah Podcast

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in South Africa because we have such a large Nigerian population. I always go. like Nigerians were the first Africans who taught me to believe in myself. You know what I mean? Like every other African that I met, always had like a certain level of like, how you doing? It was like, I'm okay. You know, I'm fine. Like, you know, even saying South Africa would be like, I'm young, which means, like, I'm almost like I'm begging. I'm. I'm begging my way through, like, yeah, I, you know, I'm. Getting by, I try. I, you know, and Nigerians I remember like literally. were the first ones who were like, you know, trading, doing,

not doing it. What do you mean you are trying, are you not winning? And I was like, I mean, yeah, I mean they're like, no, y'all winning. Y'all don't see us trying. We're not doing this. This is what now. with Trevor Noah. Why is it.

Do you what's. Your opinion, Christiana. Because I'm not gonna say. something, you know? How are you? I'm. I'm well, I'm. I'm tired. Tired, tired. You look tired. You look. Great. You look fantastic. But wait, wait. Tired, tired from life or tired from. No. I feel like you should ask people because sometimes we ask people. How are you? Then they'll say tired. You think they mean they haven't slept, but what they mean is I'm exhausted. I'm like, I'm no you. They're about to take their own life.

No, no, no. Why are we not? Don't think of it like that. Think. You know, I'm on book tour. I've been. Traveling. That's what I'm. That's what. I mean. Yes. Yeah. I just assumed you would know that. That's what I meant. I don't assume anything when people tell me how they are. Some people find it invigorating. Like going on the road, talking about their work. Okay, all right. Know it's true. Actually, people here that I like, I know. Some people, some people have. They just like they are. They like I love getting out there and. Meeting the people. Know I should. I do, I mean, but after five days of doing that,

when you haven't really sleep. and I don't sleep well, when I'm traveling, I don't sleep well in strange places and in hotel rooms. And I left Seattle at 430 this morning. Oh, okay. Yeah. You should be tired. Yeah. So. So I'm not at all suggesting that I don't like meeting my fans. because they actually do. Yeah, but no, it's but it's a good problem to have. So sometimes I think the phrase good problem. robs us of our ability to like, feel what we feel like. You know what I mean?

Sometimes people will say it to you, almost like you're not allowed. to feel something because of the position you're in relative to another position. You have to be grateful. For the yeah, people like, oh, but these are good problems. Then I'm like, no, no, no, it's just the problem. Just say it sucks. I don't want it to be a good one or no. And I mean this for me. I'm just I'm completely projecting by the way. But but I think it depends on the context, though. I think for me it's a way of saying it is the problem. Yes. But I kind of like that I have the problem. Okay. Just to say that I kind of like that people are interested in the book.

Yeah, right. If they weren't, I would not be traveling for the book. So. but I don't think well, yeah, but I think when you see a good problem, you're already seeing the problem, partner. I think if somebody said that to me, I would not take it. Well, okay. I don't like you. Do not get to decide for me what my. Oh, and then we're on the same page. Okay. No, no, no. Then. Because sometimes I'd like this. You have to embrace humility. You have to, like, Coach Couch. Everything you saying?

Yes, it is, but. But I'm great for it. You know that saying that you have to do it. But sometimes you be like, I hate the towels. I don't like the food. I don't want my family. You know? I don't do that thick. Oh, you mean. Oh, by the report. Your fresh one. If you wanted like right now, we put it's up to you. I got. This from Seth Meyers. Oh. So, so. Christina and I were chatting earlier about, first of all, your name and the fact that.

you are, I think, in many ways, a dying breed. Right? You said. You said a beautiful. You said a literary giant. Yeah. Should you just go, Chimamanda? And people are like, oh. Oh, wow. Okay. I have to say one name. Yeah. It's like it's like being Beyoncé. But in the world of books, do you do you know what I mean? There's no denying. any type of art that comes with fame then comes with the pressure. And in a weird way, I feel like art. for the most part, not to be highfalutin about it, but like art is almost supposed to be like bumping up against things all the time.

It's sort of is accepted but not accepted. Challenging, but, you know, but still accessible. It's it's like it's like in this weird space. How do you feel about your fame relative to what you're doing? Like, do you do you feel it hinders you, or do you feel like it liberates you? Neither. But hold on. So. But do you think so? Are you suggesting that fame means somehow that that fame corrupts art? So I think what happens oftentimes is fame. interferes with how art can be perceived.

That's what I think it does. Right. So I'll speak through the lens of, let's say, stand up comedy alone. Any comedian. who's like, worth their salt will tell you the difference. in how an audience perceives a perspective or a joke. when the person, when the comedian is famous is very different, because now they're not listening to what you're saying. They're trying to listen to to it through the lens of them having. a perception or an idea of who you are and where you are in relation to them. So they don't go funny, not funny, insightful, not insightful.

They'll go, that's, that's stupid for you. And I'm like, what? You mean that's stupid for me? If I told, I would have told a joke ten years ago or that I like that style of joke. and they'd be like, yeah, but come on, you're Trevor Noah, you. And I'm like, no, no. You see, that's that's where I feel like you're making the mistake. Like, if you make a joke about traffic, people. like, well, you can get a helicopter, which I often say. You know, saying you love him. You know what I mean? But, yeah, I think of it like like, you know, and sometimes we only afford this. to artist friends list actual painters when they're dead.

I love how much gravitas is awarded. to, let's say, Picasso for random napkin sketch. People are like, oh, look at this Picasso sketch. And it's like a stick figure. Yes, but even in it you can see it. Hopkins to his. His his. View of the world. I'm the guy's. The guy was just sketching on a napkin. Yes, but it was Picasso sketch. Do you understand what I'm saying? Yeah. So how do you feel about it? About fame. I. don't think about it, really.

I mean, but here's why I think of fame. And it's such a strange thing that I don't even know what to do with my face. When I was in, I think of feeling like it's. kind of like to. I know what I just think of when, but it's just, I don't think of when. I think that when I'm writing fiction, because that's for me, the distinctions. in what I do and how much they mean to me. So fiction is the thing I love. Like, I really think it's my vocation.

I think it's the reason I'm here. I really believe that. I really believe that I have an ancestral gift. So with fiction, nothing else matters. When I'm writing. I'm not, I'm not. I don't remember that I'm supposed to be a famous person when I'm writing fiction, when I'm done writing fiction and I'm editing it and someone else's sort of, you know, there's an editor looking over it. That's when I sometimes have to think about audience. But even then, I almost never change anything, because for me, fiction is almost. It's sacrosanct. I don't think about my audience. It's truly, almost magical, honestly.

But the other things I can tell when people are bullshitting me, when people say you. Love your. Work and I'm thinking, you know, you're doing this right, you're actually doing, but I'm. Not. Have you told anyone that some. Yes. Oh, wow, I love that. That is the most Nigerian thing I've ever come across. The real Igbo. No, I mean, I'm sitting next to this is like. Wow, is this. It's a wonderful. Trip. No, I mean, this is amazing. You know, but but I think it can be a good thing, right, for someone. And usually it's, it's it's my wonderful Nigerians.

Oh my mind, I love your work. And so I said to him, which one have you read? He said, I've read them. I said, which one have you read? He's like, I'm the one about Biafra. I said, okay, what happened to me? Yeah. So he starts laughing, so he starts laughing and then he tells me, I'll tell him, you know. And then when when he. Went. When it's not Nigerians, you know, usually I can tell, but then I'm, I'm slightly gentler because, you know, sometimes no Nigerians. don't know how to handle the sort of Nigerian directness. Yes.

But I think in general, because I, I want it to be read, I've always want it to be read. And, and I really do feel very grateful. You know, how you said people have to say that, but I am actually quite grateful to be read. But I think fame was never a thing that I thought. And in some ways also because I'm not on social media because I. sometimes I'm still surprised and just like, oh, so that person actually knows me so I'm not.

Yeah. It doesn't occupy me. Was, was that a was that an intentional choice to not be on social media. Yes. Or what was it. Self-preservation. So not in a high minded way, by the way. Just because I know that I will get into fights. with people and it will not end well. So I thought. So. You. You're the person you would reply if somebody asks you and said, well. I would find where you lived and come to your house. You know, that's how we met. Yeah.

Well, what. How that's how that's how the. Story's crazy. When Trevor first got his job at the Daily Show, he had, a guest on that. I didn't agree with that. Thought he should have had it. I stand by that. And I this. Guest have a name? Yeah. Tomi Lahren. Yeah. And it was like a super viral interview, and there was lots of reactions and. credit to Trevor. He came across tweets where I was critical of him in a very respectful way. I think I was kind of I also how you were critical.

I'm not critical. I was just discussing. I was oh, yeah, I was just I was discussing the fact that he had this guest on his, show. And because he disagreed with me, he followed me. He was just like, I don't think she's right because he. he stands by way at the interview, which I love about him. And he someone reached out to me was like, oh, Trevor. Trevor. No is a fan. Do you want to. Well, we thought about when you have a show. and the Nigerian in me was like, this man is trying to trick me.

and tell me off. That's the first thing I told my person. I was like, I got this email. I think this man is trying to trick me and he's holding a grudge. because I said, you should have that. There was that was like that. But I see why though. Yeah, but it was what we engaged in a few conversations where he was like, you know, you've made me think. I don't necessarily agree. We had a few exchanges, not disrespectful ones, but like, Trevor's very kumbaya. But I'm a child of Biafra, so I always want to fight. So there's that. I think there's that not tension but no, no bring different things to. Yeah. It's it's completely great I think like what what I connected with you on.

was most important for me is like I and you know, this even till this day, I don't care about agreeing with people, but I love a well-structured argument. I love an idea that makes me think. Yeah. And then something for me to. But up again, I actually find it boring when people all hang out in a group. and agree with each other. I personally think we're losing a lot of that's. Yep. You know, like we we live in a world now where we go, I don't agree with you. So it's finished. Yeah. And I'm like, no. But.

guys, if I was to get rid of everyone in my life. who I didn't agree with on an issue, I would have no one in my life. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Yes. This is a gospel that needs to be preached more. in America. You think in America particularly? Yes. This is not the case in Nigeria, for example. And I would argue in most of Africa, people know that. you can disagree with a person and still have a relationship with them. I think what's happening in the US is a kind of, you know, this kind of practice of purity that's kind of,

you know, you have to you have to have this particular views otherwise. And then the moralizing of opinion. So somebody feels a certain way about something. It's not just that. that you think they're wrong is that you think that they're bad people. And I think that that moralizing then means because you think this way, you're a bad person and I cannot talk to you and you cannot be in my life. Yeah. I think it's a particularly American thing. I really think so. And it's and it's quite contemporary. It's it's recent. It came to the U.S. in 97.

I don't think America was like that when I came to the US. I think it's recent. Do you find like that? Well, I came to America in 2014, and I say this a lot, and maybe I'm coming from like a Western. lens of being in the UK and communicating with my friends in UK. I think in the UK also, people are wearing their politics more or whatever their label of whatever. you identify as, whether the Republican, Democrat, yeah, socialist or whatever, and that is being at the forefront of a conversation.

in a way that is tainting how you can experience a person in real life. Yeah, in a way that I didn't feel when I first came to America. You first came. When I first came. Yeah. Because remember, I came when Obama was still. You don't. You're not wrong. Yeah. When I came in, I came at the tail end of Obama. Everyone assumed Hillary would win, and to be a Trump voter was a very quiet thing. I mean, we only discovered there were so many voters when the guy won. because everyone was it was just those Red hat people over there.

You never thought it was a people around you. And I think there became the scrutiny after Trump won. Like, did you vote for him? Did you vote for him? I think you voted for him like that. Suspicion. Yeah. Or people who wasn't an active morning that Hillary wasn't president. And then it changed. It changed the timba of our interactions in a way that I. don't think we've recovered from or gone back to. And I think that's even deepened now in his second term. And, you know, I always try and grapple with this, I try and figure out, especially now because I spend more time. in South Africa than I've done over the past ten years.

So when I was doing The Daily Show, most of my life was just in America and in the U.S. I couldn't really leave much. And now I get to spend more time going back to South Africa and traveling around. And one of the biggest things I've realized is in America, more than most places, I've been to people where they're politics as their culture. But where I'm from, your culture is your culture. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? So no one would dare say where I'm from. I am a Republican or I am no, no, no, I'm Hausa, I'm Zulu, I'm Tawana, I'm big.

But that's also because our politics in Africa is not ideological though. Oh, what do you mean, what do you mean by that? But it's not the it's I mean, is there in South Africa a party that you could say. is on the left and on the right and in the center based on their policies? You know, now, I know it sounds crazy, but because of Trump, they're emerging in some ways. But previously there wasn't oh, let's put it this way. All the major parties in South Africa will have very similar, promises or ideals.

They just have differences on how they believe they're going to get there. So most of them wouldn't argue that health care is a right. They all go like, no, no, we everyone should have health care. and there should be free education. And but then they'll argue about the permutations of how to get there. And I think that, you know, in agreeing with what you're saying. Yeah. But I'm just thinking about would I think that this kind of polarization, even that what I don't like, I think it preceded Trump. I think Trump made it was. But Jim.

I mean, I think it was I felt it with Trump. Yeah. Maybe, maybe, maybe that's a result of like the bubble I was in myself. Yeah. Yeah. I just think we're in a time. where people feel really defensive about what they believe, and there's not much step base for negotiation. I felt I felt a lot of that reading your book, like, I mean. Should we actually read, by the way, you did. Read it? Yeah, we left it. I loved it so much. Oh, I loved your work. Your book was fantastic, I love it.

I love that one. You just did I read it. Come on. Look. Cover to cover. This is how much I read. I remember the first, maybe like the first 50 pages. I thought it was a I thought it was like a memoir. I know this is crazy to you. And please don't get me wrong, I opened and I was like, oh, is this like your nickname? And are you telling me your real story? No, I'm being serious. And then I. Got here, I. Started googling your your father. I was like, oh, I knew he did statistics. I don't know that he was this mega rich Chris. And I was like.

Oh. I was like, yeah. I was like, what do I not know about this person? That is now changing how. I see this guy. In the book? And nothing that I'm googling is coming, is coming together now, because I think. in the way that it's written, it really felt like a personal account, you know, from how like most of the time. when I, when I read a novel, it is told sort of third person. Then she went and did this. Then they were this felt like a mini story from the beginning. You're immersed into this world of Covid. Yes, Covid and the people arguing. About famines that you then went to Google.

The way this doesn't sound right. No, I. Was, I was, but I, I would love to know what inspired or like. because you live in. a world of fiction, you can go anywhere. Yes. Because you do know that there is such a thing as the first person. No, no, I do, I understand this, I understand this completely. But what I'm saying, oftentimes the first person narration. isn't so closely tied to the author. I love that you find this so amazing.

No, I'm just saying for me. But also it's a wonderful compliment. Can I just say that? Because it means that you so believed this world that I created. Only for the first 50 pages? Give me the. And by the time we got, once we start to get into like Zechariah's story, and once we were in like, you know what I mean? Yeah. True story. I was I was like, okay, I'm I knew what was happening. Give me some credit. But I'm just saying for the first 50, I was like, this is a very. I even was planning my first question to you was going to be like, how do your friends feel about the stories you've revealed about them? You,

the things you've said about their sex lives? I was like, wow, I mean, Africans are generally conservative. How can you? Africans are so private. Like you've told this your closest friends, the six that she's having with her husband and oh wow. And the fact that he ravaged her. in a way that she had never been raped, I was like, damn, this is wow. He said that it felt like, sneaking into a diary entry. It really did feel like that initially. So I would love to know the why?

Because you talk about the world we in now, and you mentioned it as well. How much of the world we're in now influence is or influenced this book. You know, in you going I think like why is the book set in and around Covid? It it takes place. right before Covid and then into Covid and then sort of out of Covid. Why does it take place then? Why does it take place, you know, at liberal American universities? Why does it take place in this moment in time is what I would love to know. Because I'm interested in this moment because I think,

well, Covid, Covid is. I think for a writer, Covid is is gold because especially lockdown. Lockdown was so surreal, so unique, so original that you cannot use it. It's it's like perfect material because you can do anything with lockdown. And I think people reacted to lockdown in such different ways. So you kind of start with lockdown with your canvas. and you can really do anything with it. So I remember, I'm not sure why I didn't set out to I don't even think of it as a Covid novel.

I think of it as because Covid in some ways is is only a, so you want a character who's. looking back, you want a character who I'm very interested in looking back. I'm very I'm almost addicted to nostalgia. I'm kind of always, you know, and the kind of melancholy as well. Covid just felt to me, the perfect setting to have that character look back. And so she's lockdown. She's she's alone in a house.

And she's she looks back. So so I think if Covid hadn't happened I suppose I would have, maybe I would have made her fall sick and then be in hospital. Okay. You want to try. You wanted to isolate her to look back on her life. Yes. Okay. Yes. It's not that I think that Covid had any. Well, it's up to the reader. I was going to say I don't think Covid has any particular meaning in the novel, but. But I think it's to say that. the sort of authorial intent was not to make,

Covid a character, really, but to make Covid backdrop. Because I think that Covid, I don't think I've written if I this is not the Covid novel. because I think there's just so much more that would have to be. in it to make it the Covid novel, if that makes sense. Yeah, yeah. What what novel would you say it is then? Love dreams. A certain kind of melancholy longing.

Yeah. Yeah, I think it's. I think it's my most grown up novel, which is to say that it's my most, the novel in which I am most willing to. acknowledge, even embrace, uncertainty. And I don't need to have all the answers. I don't need to, I don't. need to, you know, have it all together. If you like, I had a sense of responsibility. with half of a yellow sun, for example, and with Americanah.

I was setting myself free from being the good daughter of literature. So, like, I'm just going to do what I want and I'm going to. And now I feel like I've grown up. The dream counts. Yeah. I mean, of course, it's also my diary. As Trevor said. It feels like it to me. It's no one really does. That's the best thing I've had to know. It really is to me, though to me it feels, you know. And you know why it feels like a. is to what you're saying about like, love, right?

Every single one of the stories in the book, I think, in many ways an honest reflection of how we experience love in our lives. Funny enough, men and women, I was, I was I was honestly intrigued by that part of the book. I was going, was it was it an intentional choice that you made to sort of. keep us blind from how the men were experiencing. the love and only have it be. how the women were thinking that the men were experiencing the loss.

Because I, I don't know how the men were experiencing it. Wait, what do you mean by that? Because it's a book about women's lives. So. And that's interesting because like Danielle and, you know, all of these horrible men in the book, their interior lives. so horrible, I found that it's this is my read. Okay, okay, okay. Okay. What I find a lot of them horrible. Oh, come all. As you find the most horrible. Oh my God. Well, you you guys know I'm anti men in general, but like. And what.

Yeah. You know, my life is just filled with brilliant women. Yeah, well, I could because I have some. pretty good men in my life, and I don't know that I would. I could have that rule. Are they, like brothers, family members, friends, you know? Yeah. I just speak to them during the night, 1595. So. But anyway, back to Trevor's question. What? Who did you. Yes, we know that you're okay. So I'm I'm you disturbed my spirit. the most that like, left me vibrating a bit. Kwami.

And that's because I'm postpartum myself. And those scenes of the core are like, no. Knowing her mother in a new way because of the vacuum of that man not being. That was really beautiful to me. Because me and my friends talk about all the time. Like it took us becoming mothers. to actually see our mothers as girls and like, yeah, so dialog was constantly happening, Kwame, because. of how he behaved and how his family behaved. That created resentment. I'm like, that's a that's not an honorable pattern. So like that to me, that's like a horrible man.

That's lovely. You know, I love that, you know, thinking about such things. as being an honorable person. Yeah. Yeah. I think the whole idea of being in love. is that you are not, in fact, sophisticated. I mean, there's a kind of lowering of you just every imaginable, barrier and guide that you have when love happens. I think. And Kwame May, okay. I mean, we have some empathy for Kwami. I don't oh. Interests to go.

Can you go into that a bit? I would, I would love no, I'm now intrigued. Yeah. No, I don't know I don't know, I mean, I, I don't know what happened. But on the. empathy point, when people listen to this after they read the book. Yes. Why would what would evoke. I mean. I think I think the question with Kwame would be why? I mean, what do you think. something I just feel like something must have happened to him. Speaking of trauma and trauma response, maybe it was a kind of exaggerated trauma response. This is what I felt while reading the book as as a man.

Okay? I felt like it was. And, I'd love to know your perspective as the author was like, everyone sees love from their point of view. You know, everyone in every story. that they tell makes sense from their point of view. So whenever someone's telling me their love story, I've met very few people. who tell me the love story where they are, the villains in it. I meet very few people who are aware of the elements that they contributed, and I.

I'm always intrigued by that. I'm always intrigued by how people will tell you a love story. where they they they've just been slighted. The world has done them wrong. They just keep bumping into these wrong characters. And it's and I'm like, yeah, I know this may be true, but there's only that's only one half of the story. But but is this do you mean women and men? Yeah. Yeah. Completely. You don't you don't agree? No, I'm just curious. Some men tell love stories about how. they were completely.

I think the difference with with with men, for the most part, is. because we aren't really comfortable with our emotions and naming them, and we don't spend as much time in them, especially with our friends. We may I think we will water them. down, or we'll compress them into a simple feeling like anger. I'm angry, you know. We'll very seldom say, like I felt ashamed. We'll very seldom say, like I felt inadequate. I felt no will. It's just angry, you know, it's a simple one. But I think men will tell very similar stories.

Similar stories to, you know, to, to to the ones that I found in your book. where I will say to a man friend, what happened? Yeah. She was this and she was that, and it wasn't gonna, it wasn't going to. And I go like, okay, but what I understand you but what was the why. Right. Because every love story has to have a we in the same. Yes to rebel. I we I'm just worried that we're sort of going into the both sides territory. I think that there are some relationships where one person is an asshole. Oh, completely. Yeah, that's that's completely true.

And that asshole may not acknowledge that they were the asshole, but it doesn't mean that they're not. I just feel as though, reading this book that's about women, stories about men. I'm struck by how it's been out, I don't know, two weeks. I'm struck by how many people have said to me, what about the men? What about the men stories, which is what Trevor is doing. And I think if we can rewind the tape, I didn't say that. I did not say that we did. You don't. You did give. Me. You did. No no no no no no I said you said how. No.

You said how do the men know? You said something. About what? About the men. On what I didn't say. What about the men's point of view? I would never say. That's what I was asking you. Because, remember, you're the author. You're omnipotent. So what I was asking you was if you chose to keep it opaque on purpose. So you didn't give us the answers about why that happened. The answer doesn't have to do with, like, the man's point of view, but it's the answer nonetheless. So many of the characters, they don't know why it happened. They the person disappeared, but they never get the closure.

They never get the answer. They they left with this ghost that haunts them. And so what I was asking is like, if you did that on purpose, I don't. I don't want to know, like, oh, but what was his version of it? I'm more intrigued by why you left us with characters. that were sort of unresolved in the answer that they were looking for. That's what, like I found, I found like a hook. Does that make sense? And I think there's a difference between the two. No there isn't. Oh, okay. Yeah, that was very cleverly done.

But no, because but anyway it doesn't matter because I'm, I'm. it just struck me because I think that there is a kind of expectation we have. I think that in reading. that we maybe even unconsciously, that we still look for the men, if that makes sense. I think if it were a book about men telling the stories that I don't think. as many people would have asked me, well, well, what do the women think? I would have not that. Yeah. No, you definitely would have it.

Yeah, but we all know that you're different. But anyway. So, Trevor, what else do you want to know? Oh, I want to know everything. I would actually like to know as well. Like, you know, and maybe it's. because of Christianity's, like, I mean, just presence in my life as a person. I think you were, other than my mom, probably. the woman who's given me the most insight into the like, just like the nitty gritty of like, like ugly womanhood. If if I were, if I'd call it that, you know, as in eloquently.

That's unvarnished. Completely. And this book, in a really weird way for me, felt. like an extension of the conversations I've had with Christianity. Like when we're talking about the inner workings of a woman's body. and how it's, quote unquote betraying her in some ways, and how it's not doing what it's supposed to do for her. And and then, like, even the frustration, you know, there's there's one. there's one line which I'll misquote, but it was essentially. something to the effect of how I forget which character was saying this, but they were basically saying.

there was almost like a resentment in the fact that their future. and the dream and the life they were looking for was tied to men. They couldn't achieve that dream without the men being attached to them. And one of my. Favorite lines is the character, the baby. Basically says, when you marry, when you get married, they leave you alone. Even if you divorce. Brilliant Nigerian logic. But it's the truth. because like so many of my friends, I said I just got married for freedom.

Freedom from the question, from the judgment. Oh, because your family leaves you alone? Yeah, yeah. Now you're in your husband's house? Yes. I was going to complain about the thing. Yes. Because you're under his dominion. Right, right, right. So to speak. And it's. And often. Yeah. Actually not you know, but it's a perception people have. Right. So you and your husband's house, nobody knows what you're doing or what sort of life you actually have. So for many women, it's a kind of freedom, really, in a strange kind of way, in a perverse kind of way. Obviously, we want to live in a world where a woman doesn't need to do that.

to achieve freedom. But if you live in a society that imposes that kind of thing on you. It would be nice to be in a society that. Does. Yes, but that is the reality. Yes. But it can then be a kind of strange freedom, which. Is so unvarnished, because that's not necessarily a thing. Even as direct and honest as Nigerian women are, is. what we'd say in a forum that is not private. You know? I mean, it was just like, yeah, I felt like in moments. you're in the inner sanctum of the things women say to each other. that they don't tell other people that I sometimes tell.

I feel like I felt like that about a lot of it. And I actually had that as a question as well. Was. You know, it's it's strange when it's a novel. I feel like when it's nonfiction, it's sort of has a very direct approach. with, with fiction, like most art, it's at the discretion of the artist. How much are they revealing to you and how much are they not. how much of the book are you intending as a direct commentary on society, and how much are you allowing to live in a in a complete fantasy? Like, are these are these rich Africans on purpose?

Are they interacting with like white liberals on like. And it's because I think you're very intentional. I'd love to know like the why like, what are you. what are you hoping to reveal to us through those things? Like, you know, it becomes so much more complex. But why do you choose it? I don't know, I really don't know. I this is the thing about writing fiction I don't like. I don't like the why questions, Because there's a lot. that's not I am intentional. I hate that word about lectures and essays.

When I can tell you what I what my what I had in mind for, the danger of a single story, for example. Yeah, but with fiction, it's different. It's it's, so rich African because it's true. I mean, because I'm interested in. So I think I write about things that I'm interested in, obviously. Okay. Okay. So when you talk about academia, American academia, I'm interested in that. It's also a world I kind of know because I've spent time there.

And so I can write about it with a kind of authority and authenticity, I think. Yeah. But it's also because I'm interested in all of the. the permutations. of American academia, I think, dream count. I, I don't I don't like the way questions. I think you could say that dream count is I think in some ways. it's part satire, especially the bits that are about academia. Okay. Right. But I think as satire always does, there's truth there.

Like, I'm, I'm kind of holding up a slightly mocking mirror. to certain things that happen. But I mean, there's also obviously I'm writing realism. And so. it's kind of, you know, when you see the people. who read Dickens, and there's a sense in which you could see reading Dickens is can give you. a clearer sense of, of London at the time, clearer than reading history. Do you see? I mean. I know exactly. What you mean. Yes.

So I kind of like to think that that's what I am doing with my fiction, which is. I'm creating art. But there is, of course, also a kind of social and political component to it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I'm not I don't set out to. I like to think that my points are more. blurred in my fiction. So in other words, if I had to write an essay. about American academia, I think it would be very blunt. Yeah, we're going to continue this conversation right after this.

short break. I'm interested because. we kind of started this where we're talking about, you know, you don't look at the fame, you don't think about audience. For fiction. For fiction. Are there moments when you're writing fiction. when you're like, that feels, I can't go there. Never, never. No. Yeah. No. So you it's kind of there's a fearlessness that comes with.

Yeah. The fiction. Yeah. I call it a radical honesty. Okay. And that's the only way that I can feel. happy. Fiction really makes me happy when it's going well, really makes me happy. And. And I can tell when I, you know, a few times in my life when I've held back in my fiction. and I can tell, you know, I can tell that I, in some ways it's like letting yourself down, I can tell. Can you say when you felt you held back. In some of the stories in the thing around your neck, I think that I, you know,

I held back, you know, way. Why did you. I know you don't like the why question for why did you. Know this is a different way. Different kind of way question. I guess because they this I just felt like maybe I just shouldn't go there. Maybe I shouldn't be as honest as I think. Maybe I shouldn't let this character be its full self in a way. Here's a half full self, I don't know. But anyway, the point is, I think if I learned anything. from doing that, it's that it just doesn't make me happy, doesn't feel true, it doesn't feel authentic. Right.

So some of those short stories I don't like actually, but no dream count. No, I, I don't hold back. I, I go with a cat that takes me. Yeah, yeah, it's a revelation. Some very direct from. Oh yes. But I also think I feel so strongly about literature. About fiction. I think it's our last frontier. This is it's only in literature that we can learn. things that we cannot learn anywhere else. So journalism cannot tell us about human motivation.

Journalism can not go deep into like the terrain of the human heart, which I think is really key for almost everything in the world. I mean, I really think the psychology of people. Can explain so much about the world. I mean, just the psychology of the people who are in leadership positions. I think, you know, journalism can't do that. Politics doesn't do that. To write nonfiction, especially about other people's lives, is to be constrained by certain things that you cannot possibly know.

But I think fiction. lets you just it's it's. it's the essential thing, I think, that we need when it's done. Well. That kind of. As was done in this case. Yeah. And I was gonna say that brings us to one of the characters in the book. is based on a woman who exists in real life. Can you tell us a bit more? So, yes. Inspired by her, the legal department of my publisher. Was inspired by. Yeah. We need to use the right language. Okay? Okay.

Yeah. So inspired by. So I remember when I did you. did you follow the story of Dominique Strauss-Kahn? I didn't actually, I didn't know. I now went and read. That's so interesting. Yeah. It wasn't I don't think it was really that big in South Africa. Was it was big in the UK. Yeah. Can and. Mixture. Yes. And in the US I mean until the case was dropped. So this woman who was from Guinea. and who worked as a hotel housekeeper accused him of raping her. So she walked, she walks into the room to clean it and. there's a naked white man running towards her.

And, I remember when I first heard about it, I was just riveted by it. And it was also very melodramatic. He was he was arrested. He was already inside the plane, about to fly to Paris. Oh. While where he would then have started his campaign for president, it was almost a done deal that he was going to be the next French president. And so he was arrested. And Americans as as is the want, did this very dramatic thing. of parading him in front of journalists, which I hate. Perp. Walk.

I just I think it's a terrible thing, you know, why? What? Why? Because I think. especially when it comes. to the sexual assault cases, we really have to be very careful to get it right. because the world is so deeply. immersed in misogyny that the people looking for. the smallest reason to discredit a sexual assault case. And so you imagine that misogyny is just. aching to see things like, see, this is wrong. We don't know if you did it or not. You're already parading him.

I wish they had kept it very quiet. I wish they had gone to court. I wish they had found him guilty. I wish they had publicized the evidence. That would have made me very happy, because then I think the story. would have ended differently. But anyway. So he's arrested and he's let out on bail, and then we're all kind of looking forward to the to the, the, the trial. And then at some point the case is dropped and the case is dropped. because they said she had lied on her asylum application.

And I just remember thinking. I was just shocked. I really was and almost couldn't believe it. And also just the way. that his lawyers talked about her, they just kept repeating liar and lied. Lied liar. Yeah. And for the average person watching this, your assumption is going to be that she lied about what had happened. And I think this was also very I think they deliberately did that. But in fact, they said she lied about her asylum. And my thinking is what we're saying to women is if you ever expect.

to get justice for sexual assault, then you better be perfect. Like you better be sinless, right? Which therefore means you better not be human because we're all flawed. I found it, it really. I, I felt hurt, actually, and also very angry. So I wrote this very angry essay. Nonfiction. Very blunt. Which was you know, my point was this is bad and I think I framed it in. the kind of America is not like I,

you know, not, not like Nigeria, not like in Guinea in Nigeria. The big man would probably not be arrested at all. So that America did this was wonderful. I felt very heartened by it. But America has disappointed me and in some ways has failed this woman. and but I didn't think I would write, fiction about her. I didn't plan to. So when I started writing this novel again, a character came to me. And so I think it means that even without knowing it, I carried her with me. And then suddenly something.

drops into your life and changes it forever. The. For me, that was just a great sadness that like, I felt. Yeah, I felt so upset on her behalf. But anyway, so I wrote this character who is not really her. because I've invented this character has passed life. I've invented this character's interior life. But I have kept the one story about, Nafisa Jallow. That's her name. The story. That knife is such a gelato tells about what happened in that hotel room.

I've kept as close as possible to that version, because I just think that, it's in some ways, I think it's a way. of paying tribute to her, but also, it's about so many women like her. It's about, you know, women who are powerless and who are not allowed to have dignity. The way she was, the way they talked about her, just it. it wounded my African spirit. I don't know, my parents. only would tame it just it.

Was just like a pain. Wounded me because they just thought, this is so wrong. And even the interviews that that I mean, I kind of fictionalized it in the novel, but there's an interview where I'm watching and I'm thinking, they haven't done this right. English is not her native language, right. And so you're asking her about something so intimate. and so difficult in a language that she doesn't really speak well. It cannot go well. In some ways, you're setting her up to look as though she's lying. And I remember a friend of mine who said to me at the time that,

she had watched the interview and she said, oh, I don't believe her because she was so dramatic. She was using her hands too much. And that made me very angry as well. I thought, first of all, you don't understand. There's an African world in which that is not dramatically gesticulate. That's you know, but also this woman was trained was. she was put in a position where she had to make up for. what she lacked in, in, in, sort of in her ability to express herself.

Right, you know, so anyway, all of that is to say. this character is inspired by narrative sets gender. But, isn't her. You know, it's interesting that you see the thing about, the public trials and all of it. I don't know if this is still true, but I believe in Germany. when a case is happening, when it's, you know, when you're being investigated, the press isn't allowed to report on it. And they have a very strict system that tries to prevent. the press from sensationalizing the case in any way.

So it's supposed to be the way you're saying, which actually I actually think would be good. for everyone involved, because I think, number one, there's nothing worse than a public trial. because it does not have any of the respect nor the expertise of a trial. Right. The most recent example, let's say, like the Diddy thing, the amount of random stuff that now comes up doesn't help anything. So what happens is someone can put up a fake piece of a fake, you know, deposition or whatever it might be.

And it's Sully's somebody's case that's not involved with that to do, you know what I mean? But it's just the. Spectacle of it. I mean. The noise and the creeps. Another example is the Luigi Mangione. Oh, but we like to see Luigi. Yeah, but what I was saying is. But I was going, like, you tell me. You tell me how you have that trial when the publicly they've already said, you know, the shooter and when he shot. And how do you now. then have a trial of somebody when, when that's already been done.

And you see, it's interesting when you say that and you talk about the perp walk. Yeah. I can think of maybe at least ten examples in the book where. the fiction. of this book still comments on the real ness of, of, of America. And it's like, like a critique on it. So, you know, American academia, how people are discussing issues. in and around the world. and how they, how they feel they can and cannot have the discussions, the justice system. The character says, In America, money is justice. Yes. Which was very powerful to me because you just see.

Yeah, yeah. You know, that's like, yeah, yeah. And I should say that I agree with the character in my. just utter horror of yes, I remember when I came to the U.S. and they would say things like, oh, something terrible happened, but the family got money, you know, somebody was shot, maybe. And then somebody be like, oh, the family got money. And I'm thinking, yeah, but why are you talking about it like that? So, I mean, yeah, somebody died. Yeah. You do. Yeah. Yeah. But fundamentally that's what America was based on. And I think every culture. thinks that justice.

is the thing that the culture most values you don't, you don't think, think about. like it's like, okay, if I think about like some parts of South Africa, I remember talking to Kiah about this like a friend of mine from South Africa. and, his dad was his grandfather was a chief in the village. And if they found some a very seldom. But if somebody stole something. or if they did something wrong, you just get beaten, right? You you would, you know, you would you wouldn't get arrested. You wouldn't get put away. You wouldn't, you just get beaten. And then they would talk to you and say, please don't do that again.

That's all it was. And him and I were joking about it, saying, it's interesting how in that. setting in particular in like a village, you know, where many of our grandparents. grew up, that was the thing that you like. So what was valued? Violence. No, no. No no, it was the other way around. Our culture valued nonviolence and our culture valued. like the culture itself. It was like a very like, that's not the thing that we want. Do you understand? I'm saying, if so, if the violence, the violence takes away from you. the thing that the culture holds most valuable, I find.

So in some parts of the world, time is the thing that they really look at. Other places in the world think that shame is a more powerful tool. So this their sentences may not be as long, but how they handle the case is worse. But I feel like in America, because money, whether we like it or not, money is like almost the foundation of America. Yeah. They go then if we give you money, you have been made whole. and the other person lost money. So they've really been punished.

And also enough money being speech. Yeah. I mean, in this country, I mean I've completely some citizens United. But anyway, let's talk about dream consciousness. But I feel like dream comes is everything. I agree with. Like for instance, academia. Let's talk a little bit about that. Yeah. It felt like the book was making a criticism. of how America's liberal academia treats. discussions. Contrarians. Contrarians, arguments, etc.

and like I found myself reading it, going back, I was like, oh, I wonder how much of this my mother thinks? Or is it just the character that's thinking like, what do you think of the current state of America's academia. and how students are taught to think or not think? I think that's fairly of, you know. Is it, though? I think I think it's a fair. and actually I, it's a reading that I agree with, which is that, yes, the book. is, is, clearly not.

enthusiastic, right, about the form. and even the function of American academia today. I mean, obviously, but so you have a woman who's Nigerian. and who doesn't know anything about that whole thing. Yeah. Who comes looking for something better than she is. Right. So she's come from she's come from a life in Nigeria that she thinks. she kind of wants to atone for, right, in a way. And so America becomes this. I want to find something noble and beautiful and good and honorable,

because America is aspirational still, even to to the people who, you know, know that it's a very complicated place. There's still an aspirational element to America. And so she comes and she wants to do a masters. and she wants to study pornography. I think we should be able to say that. You can say that, okay. So pornography is not. And she. so, so it's interesting for me as the writer to look at this world.

from the point of view of the person. who just does not know it and is not familiar with it. So this person is just. taken aback, surprise. Like, do you know what is going on? And also then she becomes so disillusioned by it? I think if someone wants to read that as a cautionary tale, I'm not opposed to it. Okay, okay. I mean, this is what can happen, which is you can't make people lose. that thing in them that wants to be.

better and dream and and aspire. You know, there's something actually, I think, quite cynical about and, and it's not it's not an obvious cynicism, but there's something. quite cynical about the way that academia operates. It doesn't feel to me, I don't know. There's something about the beautiful things that are lacking. So. It's not just about. It's not just about letting, imaginations be free.

And we should be able to exchange ideas. It's also just more fundamental things like. compassion, you know, and I don't even like to use kindness because that word is so overused. and always by people who are spectacularly unkind. So I will not use kindness, but compassion. You know, I'm. With with empathy. Yes. The ability to to understand that there are multiple points of view in the world.

It's a very strange thing because and I'm a person who grew up in a university. campus, so academia has always been a part of my life. Like it's my I'm, I'm, I get into a university campus anywhere in the world and I'm already at home. Like, it's just I feel comfortable. and and you will think, and this is what it was like in Osaka. when I was growing up. It was a place of of, of many ness. of, you know, it was multi ideas.

People write it. And that's not the case in America. It's not the case at all. And, and sometimes it's. difficult to talk about because like, you know, it's you don't want to. sometimes one doesn't want to agree with one's enemies. So that people and who are your enemies, the people on the and then people on the political right. in this country who I think just espouse the most ridiculous ideas, but who also.

criticize American academia. And I think there's truth there. But but acknowledging that kind of I just think, oh, my Lord, thank you. But my, my, my feelings come from a different place, comes from love, comes from wanting this thing that I love to be better. That's where it comes from. How or what would your advice be if,

let's say there's a there's an aspiring author. or even just like a student who loves you, work out there. Somebody who is in academia right now, they they come to you and they say to you, I hear what you're saying about empathy and seeing another person's point of view. or but I feel like this person who I disagree with, the thing that I disagree with them on, is the fundamental humanity. or existence of another human beings, per se, because that's what I've heard a lot of people say. They'll go, no, no, no, this is not a difference between 30% tax and 20% tax. I'm I'm disagreeing with somebody who fundamentally believes.

that black people should not get this or that. This group should not get that or that, you know what I mean? How would you encourage them then? But I don't I don't even agree that that's the case. I mean. I don't agree that that's the case. No, because I think that. Way that they feeling that or that, which part of you're not agreeing. No, I'm sure that they feel that. Okay. But that you feel something doesn't mean it's true. It doesn't. And I think that when you widen the definition of something. So this is somebody who believes that black people should not have,

maybe that person just feels maybe that person supports school choice. Okay. But and and this is an exact example actually, I know somebody who is very upset because somebody who, supports school choice. And then the very strange conclusion. was that this person who supports school choice doesn't like black people. That's. not I mean, you could feel that, but that's not. that's not necessarily rational thinking. So I guess my point is.

it's either people have become. in credibly terrible in the past 20 years, or something has changed in the way, in our capacity to have compassion, to be more broadminded, to to think in more complex ways. My point being that 20 years ago, I don't think we that this was happening. In other words, universities were places where you could still exchange ideas. You weren't terrified of saying something. because you know you'd be blacklisted for saying the wrong thing.

So which is it? Is it that there are many more people now who fundamentally. just have these really odious beliefs about other human beings? You said that. you said something about wearing, wearing, politics more closely. Is that what it is, and has it then tainted the way we look and the way. we judge and and the conclusions that we draw? So, as I say often, I have a very dim view of human nature is very hope. See.

And so I've always thought people are terrible. and I still think they're terrible. I don't think that's true. I really, ugly scar. Works on it's guilty until proven innocent. That's how she works with all humans. Talk about generational trauma, I always say so my like my father. and his two brothers miraculously survived Biafra. And considering what they've gone through, they are such good. and compassionate and empathetic and non-suspicious people. You would think I went. Through the. War.

But now what I tell my therapist is that the generational trauma. that I to vigilant, I'm probably speaking nonsense. But what I do say is some people have a more dim view of human nature. And if that is true because. because I always say, you know, there are racist racists need that outlet. Sometimes they're Twitter like there are some people. who have odious points of view, people that do not see my humanity. Yes. How do we go from there? Because I think there's maybe there's an in-between. Yeah. But I don't think that those are the people we're talking about, though.

That's my point. Oh, okay. So. I mean, in these circles that. so people in on university campuses who, you know, who don't feel comfortable. saying what they think are not the crazy racists on Twitter. The crazy racists on Twitter. do not interest me because I don't think it's civil war. I mean, there's some people that you shouldn't. even bother engaging with or trying to change them.

I'm talking about the fringe. No, no, you're talking about maybe the. the the masses, the class of in the middle. And the reason that. Yes. And I think it's important to see that. because sometimes I think that instead of talking about that, we then sort of reach for the fringes as examples, as justification. Yeah, let's it's kind of also like saying that people. who think that women there are in this country, many people who still, I mean, the people in this government who who think. that just by virtue of being a woman, you somehow incapable of certain things.

Right? I mean, I don't mean those people. So the atmosphere in on university campuses today in this country, just seems to me. And so when Trevor says and someone says, well, I can't speak to them. because fundamentally they believe something that is so. and so that's my point. I'm thinking, did many people suddenly turn. or did our own perception change. because these people that somehow.

have become super, that you can never speak to them again? Yeah, they're kind of in your circle. I mean, they were there 20 years ago, right? I mean, they're not in the fringes of Twitter. They're in your community. Yeah, yeah. And so what is it that has happened? It just feels to me a kind of, confusing extreme ness of. of, of reaction and perhaps maybe of opinion. and I, I not I don't fully understand it, but I don't trust it, so I don't, I don't okay.

Yeah. Okay, I get it. Okay. So, this is, this is how I think about it. One, I think social media dramatically. changed our perception of where people sit in reality. Right? It gave us a flattened view of people because that's what gets the algorithm. That's what ropes us in. So I will see the worst of you, because the worst of you is what inflames me the most. Well, only see the best of you because it attaches me to you. But the nuance is is, it's boring, you know? So.

And they show you this with the algorithms. Like, if you sit down with the engineers, they'll show you if somebody writes, it's a it's a lovely day outside. It'll go nowhere. If you say best day ever, it goes somewhere. And if you say worst day ever, it goes somewhere. But if you use adjectives and descriptors that are like. they don't evoke something extreme, it doesn't really do anything. If you wrote a little tweet about a president and you said, you know, this president's not great, but they also not the worst. And I guess everyone has their flaws.

It's not going to go anywhere you go. This president is destroying this country. They are the they're the worst thing. And I think that started to filter into the discourse in American politics. And I think politicians, I genuinely put a lot of blame at their feet, because I think American politicians spent a lot of time. using the language. that really only wrestlers should use about their opponents, you know, so they would come out there and they would say things like, I remember the you weren't there.

The Daily Show yet. But, you know, in our first years, we went to, we went to New Hampshire for the primaries. And I remember being so shocked at how Lindsey Graham's team. was buddy buddy with Hillary Clinton's team. And Lindsey Graham would send Hillary Clinton. birthday messages and talk about her family. When you saw these people on a stage. speaking about each other, they they didn't even mince words. They would say, this person is going to destroy this country. They're killing this country that, you know, and I've spoken to people. who are far smarter than me in the world of politics.

And they say it all started with Clinton around the Monica Lewinsky. They said that's when American politics became. personal and like, quote unquote, evil, not evil. You know. This it was created by Newt Gingrich. Yeah, yeah. But I think that's where it became a thing. So if your leaders are saying, you see, now, this is weird, now we. come back to other politics. One of the things I've loved about going back to South Africa. frequently is realizing that even in the the doldrums. of of fighting in, in, in, in politics,

I've never heard a politician say the other person is the devil. or they're destroying the country, or they. they don't agree with how they're doing it. They'll say they're incompetent at their job. They haven't met service delivery. They the but I, I really I maybe my moment. In kind of. Those those attacks with the think of the things that people have said right. about other politicians and then think of how incongruous. that is with them and how they all with each other, they have lunch together. They have dinner together. They all right.

What then happens is their fans. then adopt a thing that they don't believe in. But now the fans are the ones who control the theater of it all, the spectacle. And I don't know if you. there's a really amazing documentary I watched, about, Vince McMahon. It's fascinating. Even if you don't like wrestling, I recommend everyone to see who is Vince. Vince McMahon is the man who basically made wrestling what it is today, right? I promise you, no. Don't you? It's even better if you don't like wrestling. In fact, go and watch this.

And one of the most revealing. Of a life is so short. Oh, let me tell you how. Much I want to watch. I would not recommend this to you if I did not believe it would give you. an an insight into America that very few documentaries can, right? Because one of the main things it shows you is how like there's. a, there's a point where, long story short, the wrestling federations of splitting. and the wrestlers decide. before these, like a few of the wrestlers leave, they decide. they're going to give each other a big hug on the stage. and they're going to they'll basically drop the facade.

and you should see the crowd and the way they react, the crowd. I was like, but truly, they know that it's quite real. So the crowd got very and. The crowd got they were furious. They were they were like, how? How could you how could Shawn Michaels hug, you know. Triple. H, how, how good it was. And I was like, oh, yeah, this is this in many ways is what I think has happened. with American politics. And to your point, the discourse, the leaders said, these are my these are our enemies.

People then adopted that. How do you now discuss with your enemy? I think what I think we're putting too much blame on politicians. Oh, no, I'm not putting all of it. And not enough responsibility on. On individuals. And then also, I mean, which came first, what you said about social media, I agree. more with which is. Yeah. I mean, this whole politician thing, you think everybody watches politicians? I mean. I think everybody's affected by them. I think Donald Trump has shifted. But he's running a cult. No, but, you know, different.

Aren't they all in some way, shape or form the Democrats? It's a bad. Call, but it's still. But I'm saying, like, let's take the Democrats away. Let's look at people because the Republicans also weren't great. Obama. Trump. Yeah. Coty. Right. We talked about it with Joshua. He said that's why he called him white Obama. He says, and people get angry. And I understand why. But on that episode when we talk about it with Josh, we it's it's because of. Course Trump White. So he he says what what Obama. represented to so many people, especially black people.

Trump represents to like so many white people where they go, this is our moment. This is our the sort of lost dream, the lost idea. And it's it's a comedy premise, but he's not going. These are the same people. He's just saying for them that is their promise. Know one speaks to the darkness, the other speaks to the light. There's an overlap in their voters and they both speak. to some aspirations, but in different ways. That's. the ugly, you know. It's hope, but in different directions. Okay, Obama goes.

You're you're south, I love it. No, no, I'm not. I, I mean, my mind is not sold on anything though. I like it. Well, I mean, this is. This is not true. That's this good. This is this is Troy. The same way Cristiano is not sold. I don't expect to sell you on something. I know I'm I'm sold on something. No, I'm just thinking about it. I. Whatever. It's not interesting to me. I I'm so. Yeah. So I, I will say this for the I think it's a lot harder.

I understand where. a student or any person comes and I talk of empathy. I understand it in, in always to be honest with you. I can see somebody who goes know this, this country, we have to completely change this. And it's gone to the dogs, quote unquote. But then I also understand somebody who says a lot of the language. you're using, all of these ideas, you don't even know where they came from. So you may be thinking of it just through the lens of school choice. But for many people who have like dug into.

the trenches of where ideas come from, you start to realize. that some of the ideas are innocuous in their sound. But where they were, where they were written, you know what I mean? Like how they were created. That's fair, that's fair. But the person who who supports culture does not know. I agree with this history. I agree with their consumption that that person should know, and then that person is judged on that, and then that person is ignored. and blacklisted. But that person does not know. Yes. And it's also this new world where you're not even a loving curiosity is dead.

And I, you know, as a person who just I love learning. and I just keep thinking, what what have we lost in this. new sort of world where people don't even, even to ask a question? You're uncomfortable. I remember when I spoke at, an Ivy League. university, which will be unnamed and, and so I had a few of the students in a sort of private meeting. where I just because I like to know what young people are really thinking.

Yeah, away. From the grown ups. And so we started talking and then I said, you know, I, I knew of you, like, uncomfortable to say what you really think. Everyone was like, no. And then one person goes, yeah, but sometimes. And suddenly all of them were like, yeah, sometimes. And even that struck me because I remember thinking, we've gone. from that kind of almost forced conformity to suddenly thinking, okay, maybe it's.

maybe I can actually see what I'm really thinking. Right, right. And there was something about you that just made me sad. because I thought they were graduating, and I thought, what have they lost out on learning in the four years they've been here? Because they've been too unsure, uncomfortable about asking questions. And again, so what I mean about these, these kids are not the fringe on Twitter. Yeah. You know what I mean. Yeah. But they already know that. I better be careful. Otherwise somebody will think that I'm,

a person who hates black people. Yeah, yeah. No, I'm. Just doing it. Yeah. And so, I don't know, it just made me. I just made me so sad. Do you think that's a byproduct of who actually holds the power in universities? You know, like you see funding being pulled. You see rich donors saying, if you teach that, then I'm pulling my funding. If you think, yeah, I think a large part of America's academia problem is money. There's just so much money that, I mean, even the even the entitlement of the students is about money.

Yeah. I mean, the school fees are high. Yeah. High. Right. They're high school students feel like, well, I've booked this. I mean, when I was, when I, I took creative writing at Princeton when I was doing a fellowship, and I remember a student coming to me and saying, you gave me a C, I've never gotten a C in my life. And I was like, wow, is that my. I give up? I said, can we I can show you why. I mean, so I thought if the student had come to me to say, I want to prove to you. that you've kind of, you know, here's why I should not get the C.

Here's the thing on my paper. But no, the students said, I have never had a C in my life. This is my first C, and so I want you to change it. And so my first thought was, you know, I don't blame you. Maybe your father gave money to Princeton. But, my dear, this is your grade. Because this is what you need to know. And we can just go so people. But, you know. I feel like. So it's money. Money? No, really. And then, you know, they have so much money in the endowments. But there's, you know, people like giving them money.

And so they have special dinners for them. And, and so money I think is a major problem. And that's happening so much more. This whole, you know, I'm going to I won't I will. withhold my, my my promise. Yeah. Yeah. If you don't do. and then I think Israel, Israel Palestine has really made that so much more. You know, where they're like, if you're doing that therefore. And I just think. I also just wish that universities were not so beholden. to people who have money, because then they I think there would be more.

courageous. I think there's. very little courage left in the public space. That's what I mean about long form. I, I'm like on my dream account, I want, I'm longing for. what is noble, what is beautiful. I want heroes, I want people I can look up to and admire and learn from. I think there's a large part of me that is disillusioned, disappointed, even heartbroken.

I hate it and sarcasm, but it's all there. Okay, don't go anywhere because we got more. What now? After this? Do you think there's a part of you that. not wishes or. I wonder if you know this. This happens to everyone in the public space. You and I were talking about this. I have experienced this. Almost everyone has. There will be. a moment where it feels like you are a hero,

and then it feels like the natural part of that journey is to now. be the villain or to have like, you know, and I don't know if it's art imitating life or vice versa. So like your side of that. Yeah, like an. Icon to come down. You know, like, I think about how if, if you and I had a conversation, I remember our first conversation, it was like I was speaking to Jesus. Not really. That's how people would be like, wow, are you going to speak to him?

Oh wow, I oh, I ask her how oh, but it was, it was such an in a beautiful way. But it was really but people were like, wow. Oh I and you know, your words were gospel and the whole thing. And then I remember saying, not to. people was like, oh, I'm going to speak to my man. And they were like, oh yeah, well, it was gets you in trouble. Just so you know, you might get in a little trouble. They might be and I. Like interesting to know. Yeah. No, I well I mean, you know on social media I guess, but. I don't know if it's because people wish for it to be the natural progression.

or if sort of going through what we started with. your fame. Sort of metastasizes for some people, where they wish for you to be, they creates an idea of everything that you must think. And if you deviated any point from what they think you think, then they go, the whole thing must come down that. Does that make sense? That's interesting. How how would it get you in trouble, though? How would what get me in. Trouble talking to me? Well, everyone has a different opinion on why.

some people would be like, oh, you're going to talk to her. She's anti-trans. How are you? I mean, are you going to talk to a transphobic? And I'm like, I don't think my mind is transphobic. And they're like, oh, well, you you better than someone else will go, oh, she's. right wing leaning them. I'm like, I'm pretty certain she my mother is not right wing leaning. There's no like no. You see what she says about anti. cancel culture and and then I go, okay now this is me as Trevor. What I always try and do for myself is I try and at all costs. for my own opinion on something.

and then allow the world to in some way shape or form. bump up against that opinion, because I don't live in isolation. But when I read your your piece on how we it wasn't canceled. because you said something was beautiful was about some was purity or, forgive me, I remember the message, but not all the words. But it was. I remember reading it thinking, damn, this is a really insightful, messy and honest view on how we're dealing with conversations in society. You're failing a purity test, and we're writing people off.

And, you know, I've said this to a thousand times, Christiana. I go, guys, it's not sustainable to lose your whole family. because your uncle said this thing. I was like, politicians will come and go and topics will come and go. The people in your life hopefully won't. I'm a big fan of that right? This is the reason I'm not on social media. I come for it from a different perspective. I think. I hate how in America it's like, you're right, you're left, you're right. Because I think people contain multiple ideological positions,

some issues and some like right wing leaning on what left. There is no one. Yes, yes, but it's buffet politics. I don't know what. What are right wing ideas? I mean, right, even even if it's that. How do you do it. Right. But that's you know. That's true. Which which is why it's not about. And I agree with you that nobody we're not we're not pure. I mean, we you know what? Especially when you're a person who comes from, you know, the reasonable, reasonable regions of the world.

that is Africa, Asia, Latin America, the Middle East, you kind of understand, you know, you have uncles who. I mean, I have relatives who still think that women. really should not be working outside the home. And, you know, and then there's me, and we still happen to get along. Yeah. And I think that there's certain views that, some of my views have changed as I've become older, even I think in some ways my feminism has changed.

I think, for example, when I was younger, I didn't want to talk about women's bodies. because I felt that this is how this is how these stigmatized women felt like, you know, nobody should talk about PMS because they use that to justify. excluding women. They'll say things like, how can a woman be president just to press the button, right. But now I realize, actually, men press the button without PMS. So maybe women are still the best. I mean, if we can just get the hormones stable, then we're fine.

But man, my god, no PMS and they're just doing crazy things. So. But that has changed for me. I can list people in every field, comedians who say, I mean, now I see a thing that's a joke. It used to be agreed that this was a joke. We all knew that this wasn't real. It's fiction. I do not want to kill my mother in law. And now someone goes, oh, for you to be furthering the idea of violence. You're like, no, no, no, no, no. That, you know, like Jimi causes it really beautifully. The British comedian, he had this thing that he used to play. at the beginning of his shows in response to this, and he'd have a message.

that would come on and would say, hello, I'm Jimmy Carr and I'm a comedian. I want you to know that I'm going to be making. some jokes about terrible things tonight. But remember, these are jokes about the terrible things. These are not the terrible things. The jokes are not. making the terrible things and the jokes and I change the terrible things. But these are the jokes about the things. So, have a have a good time. These are jokes. And but I was amazed that even he had to, like, put that in. He showed you do you get. I'm saying but I do think that I can tell you that the jokes. I will not laugh at that. Certain things I refuse to laugh about. But that's fine. That's comedy.

It's like there's some people who don't like spicy food. I judge them, but I don't mind that. No, I think no, I don't think that's a good analogy. Why not? Because when I say I won't laugh, it's not like, oh, it's just my taste. It's more that I think. in some ways similar to what you said about school choice. Yes. But how that people who know that maybe deep down. in the language, knowing the foundation of that idea, there's something that's. Quite. You know, toxic or. Something pernicious. And. Yeah. So that's what I mean about the certain jokes I won't laugh about because I just,

I think that there are certain jokes that are not just jokes. I think sometimes people are not laughing with you. They're laughing at you. But I think this is a dangerous road. to go down because, you know, you're a fiction writer. So someone could say to you, Chimamanda, your book, we. with this cannot exist in because it is not it is, you know. No, no cannot exist. So here's the difference. Yeah. I will not laugh at that joke, but I'm not going to say you cannot see. That joke, okay. No no no no. But then we'll but that's what I mean by that's what I'm saying. It is taste.

So comedians and we love even doing this as comedians. We'll be in a show, we'll watch a comedian tell a very racist joke, we'll go, that's funny and it's racist. And as comedians, we say the craft of what the person is doing in terms. of making a thing funny, they've done, but we also acknowledging the roots of it. It is racist. The same way I can look at like, food. Yeah. And I go like, yeah, this food is poisonous, but it's delicious. Do you know what I mean? And so I think, look, I think we're on the same page there.

I'm not saying people should laugh at everything the same way. I don't think people should enjoy every book or every point of view, etc. however, you know, that's that's why I think, you know, we actually we saying the same thing. Yeah. But no, but Jeff, I want to go back. So you asked me a question about making a decision sort of almost solo on your own. Yeah. Versus and I don't think of it as that kind of clear cut dichotomy, because I don't think it's even possible. I wasn't clear cut. I was saying more like, how do you find the like, what do you think the responsibility is? Because, yeah, I don't think it's clear cut,

but do you exist somewhere on that spectrum? I exist on the. I'm sort of lean. I lean right wing leaning. I lean. Toward. Thinking, okay, I really believe in sort of lucid thinking. Yeah. And I like clarity and I, you know, I'm a writer. I also like, wants to mean what they mean. I like clarity of language. I like clarity of thought. I like thinking about things.

And, you know, from the time I was a little girl, I, I just was never. a person who went along with what I was supposed. to to, to do or believe. I've always kind of wanted to do it. I want to sit with this for a while and think about it. Right. But also I want to make decisions based on knowledge and information. So I'm very keen on learning, like if there's a subject. And so I want to go read about it, you know, so. I, I've been reading about it. I don't know what the hell that's about. So now I know things like this generates if I this but.

I, I did you know about the training model. But so so when I see make up. my own mind it's not that I just sit there with nothing. I want, I want to gather information and then I want to process it for myself. You're a student. Yes I'm a student and I always want to be a student. But what I can tell you is that I'm never going to be swayed by. criticism. Never. That's never going to happen. I am the daughter of James and Chris, and. And it's not going to happen. Hey. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's it. But I have my opinions. I can write and, you know, and I can have conversations with you about why I have those opinions. And I'm also very keen to know why you disagree. Yeah. You know, if you're if you're a person who can actually make coherent sentences. About what you're saying. So yeah. So you encourage the discourse and the dialog. Yeah. But it has to be grounded in, I guess, intellectual curiosity. And it seems like from reading your essays in your work, a mutual respect. Yes. Because the affront to you is just like, don't be disrespectful, which is how I feel. Don't disrespect me or I'm going to leave.

Exactly. Yes. If there's disrespect, I will not take it. I'm just not going to. And I think also, I mean, I remember one thing to somebody, you know, I was loved. and I am loved. I had the best parents in the world. So I do not need to compete for your love. Yeah. You know, I don't need to do I don't need to change myself for you. If you like me, I'm happy that you like me. If you don't like me. I'm still me. And I wish that that was easier for more people.

Especially women. There's a line in the book where one of your characters. is basically talking about. I think like how the world is shaped. and they basically say something to the effect of, it's almost like America doesn't know that the world isn't. America is, and only America is. Yeah. And I remember having this discussion with a friend of mine who was taken aback. because they really felt offended and understood why it was.

Is there anything you do not understand? No, I try to understand most things genuinely. I, I think everything else. By the way, was a joke. Oh, it's everything is not. Everything's understandable. But I'm just like, agreeing is different I think. So I remember it would. Make a good fiction writer. This is actually how we're supposed to see, you know, you're supposed to kind of understand. everybody's point of view without necessarily. Because he's biracial and he was born in apartheid. So I think I think so. Anyway, so he to.

I think so in many ways I. Think the different. I've been forced, I've been trained from my birth to be that way as a person. So I had no one way of eating food. I had no one way of celebrating a Christmas. I had no one way of speaking a language. I had no one way of my hair looking, my face looking. I had no one way of my country being I had. So I've never believed that there is a one way, you get what I'm saying. So, so I remember like one of the first ones that came to me was, I remember I told us as a joke in one of my shows long ago, but I said. I always found it interesting that people would mock someone with another accent,

but I'll go. But somebody who has an accent, it means that they fluent in another language. And that was something that. So for me, when you talk about understand, I would always go, yeah, if somebody has. a funny accent, it can be funny, but don't ever forget that. It means that they speak another language fluently. That's why they have the accent. And so when I when I think of these things, I was. I was doing shows in the Middle East and my friend said to me, hey man, I mean, I don't aren't you conflicted?

You go to the Middle East and you do shows. And and I said, what? What do you want me to be conflicted about? And they said, well, I mean, you know, their views on gay marriage. I said, it's interesting that you ask me this because America's. views on gay marriage are not. as old as you think. Like, this is a now thing. Do you do you get on? I'm saying, yeah, but. You have to remember, homophobia is alive and well in America. But what I'm saying is, what what what got me with that was I was saying, I'm not dismissing. It's. far from it, you know what I mean?

But what I'm saying is, it's interesting how for me, when America has finished with an issue, has decided a place, it then now goes. That is correct. Now for the world. So before gay. marriage is accepted in America, Americans go like no gay marriage is no God. Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve. Come on, we all agree on this. America says gay marriage and then America goes on a conquest around the world, pointing at every country to be like, where's your gay marriage? And then I go, guys, how old is the UAE as a as a place. like as a, as an actual kind of how old is it?

And I go, if you look at the advancements they've made. in the time that they've been a country versus. how long it took America to get to those places, it's actually pretty impressive. Now you want them to do it overnight because you've already agreed upon it, but you're not giving them their time to get to it, which I think we all do as people. Why have you not found Jesus yet? I found Jesus then you're like, yeah, but there's a time when you. hadn't found Jesus. Yes, but now that I've found him, why don't you find Jesus? Do you? Do you understand what I'm saying? Yeah. When you say we all do it, I don't think we all do it. But anyway.

Or maybe you, I don't. Yeah, no, but I think when I say all, I mean the collective, you know. But you know what's interesting. and it's true. It's true about Americans and. I think it comes from I mean, just listening to you and, you know, this person says to you, aren't you conflicted? And then you're saying, you know, let's look at the UAE. How how old is it? Yeah. And I'm just thinking, you know, that that American point of view often comes from. a place of just not knowing very much.

about the world and also not. I sometimes feel that that arguments in this country. are not rooted in information and knowledge. It's not just that often. they can feel like performance is, but it would be nice if you know. So someone said, why aren't you conflicted? And someone else says, no, I'm not conflicted. Well, people like jokes and so I'm going to go with people like jokes. I think that's kind of what you would often hear in America. Okay.

Rather than how old is the UAE? How long does it take for society to evolve? What are the changes that have happened. that speak to a certain kind of hopeful progressivism? That doesn't happen? So, Trevor, you need to start, classes? I mean, this is the class. Know what you teach people, you know? But really, I'm. just thinking, I mean, I think it is true about really a lot of things. You know, I just wish that sometimes if there was a huge issue of the. the outrage of the day that people would be like,

I'm not going to have an opinion until I've read a book about. It, I take it you know, Trevor is a king of that, not the book. But remember at the show, The Daily Show, I think it was. Jussie Smollett is an example come to mind? Jussie similar. The incident happened where he said he was assaulted by these Trump people. And when during the meeting, we're watching the videos. and you know, the people are, oh, this is so outrageous. This is so sad. Myself, who's like Trotsky on the far left. and another writer who I won't name, but it's pretty right wing.

We both said there's something not right. And Trevor said, you see these two people, they never agree. I did say that. And he's like, guys, this pause, Trevor said, we're not going to. we're not going to cover this. Yeah, we're not going to go full like MAGA racists. And we had all the roles. because it's like it's a big production to get all these clicks. We had all the roles. People had to take people and made jokes about how it was, and Trevor was like, let's take a B, and this was like on the Monday or Tuesday. Wednesday was coming in. You know, people are saying justice for. Just.

Jussie Smollett. Like, yeah, I mean, everyone's tweeting Trevor still like, let's take a B. I think it was until like Wednesday or Thursday it emerges that, you know, the story wasn't what he was professing it to be. And Trevor was like, okay, now we're ready. And I always think about that when a story breaks. or there's some hot button issue because I'm listen, I'm always like, I'm quite fiery, as you may have gathered, I used to be of the view of like, this is my opinion, but Trevor is very good at let's take a B, let's read more like.

I used to be frustrated because I'd be like, yeah, you. This happened to these people that dying. And Trevor said, when people die every day, we can't like. we have to have an informed response to what's happening. I feel the same. But I but I so here's what I have a compassion for people. I think it's unfair for us to expect that of people. because they are living in the world that they're living in, you know? No. No, I honestly unfair. It's expected of everyone. Yes, I think I think I'll tell you. I'll tell you why. It's. No, no. Okay. Sorry. You know. Yeah. You can disagree with that certain responsibility.

It's unfair to expect it of people who are deep inside something. So for example to say if you said to me it's unfair to expect people in Gaza, oh, it's unfair to expect people who lived through. what happened in Israel to be rational or objective. Yeah, I agree with that. But the average person, no. Okay. We have a responsibility. But now so are you. Are you Jesus? Then are you above everyone else? How come you know but really know?

Let me explain to you. Let me explain why. Okay, let me see. Because this argument I'm. going to say that the foundation of it is very self-aggrandizing. I'll I'll tell you why. Okay, I love it. So here's what I think. I think we all have areas where we are able to see what others cannot see. It might present itself differently. I think LeBron James sees things on a court that most human beings cannot. That just happens to be his area where he sees it. There'll be things that I see that other people cannot. You can choose a field, you can choose a world. There are people who see things that others cannot.

I think in society, once we created institutions, we basically outsource that expertise to institutions in a very good way. And that became a lot of what advanced society. Right. And so like, let's let's think of it this way. Let's look at a nutrition label. on a box of something or food when they would say healthy or whatever. People are relying on the fact that that food has been inspected. And so it is healthy and so they will ingest it. Yeah. But that but that's kind of different though.

No. But why different from there's a new outrage of the day. Like this story that you told of the guy who said someone had mugged him. Yes. And suddenly people have opinions. My thing is often people don't. So I'm like, there's no book to read on that. What do you want them to do? But I think we're not disagreeing all the way. Are you talking about that, the reflexive urge to take a side? Yes. And you want people to take a beat? Yes. I'm with you. So what I see on this side, my thing. And so I often also say go to the primary source, like so sometimes someone will forward something to me.

So it's true. And I'm just like, where did you get this from? But Zimmerman, I think you are overestimating. people's ability to even know what the source should be like. I went to journalism school and sometimes I've been tricked. But that's what I thought was in what way? You know, there's sometimes it's just like there. there was an I think it was an I think I was sent something recently. and I was momentarily duped until I dug a bit deeper and I was like, oh, this is not true. This is manufactured.

And I think we assume people to be a lot more literate than they are. And, and, and that's not that's not coming from an arrogant. But I was just flooded with information. And I tell you I'm like, sometimes I get WhatsApp forwards from my auntie. I'm like, yeah, see, what did you expect? You drink Covid, chew ginger. And I was like, oh yeah. But she was like, no, don't get the vaccine, Chu Ginger. and you'll be fine, right? And to task that person with finding the truth, a lot of people don't know. where to start, especially where we are being flooded with misinformation.

So I think Trevor saying maybe we should have a bit more grace. because not everyone is able to maneuver. No, I'm saying. I'm saying that we should not take for granted. the fact that the systems have been corrupted in such a way. that the people who are looking for. the thing are often the ones who are duped the most. A perfect example is, vaccines, right? Most of the parents who don't want to get their kids. vaccinated read more than the parents who get their kids vaccinated. They go out there and they say, I want to do the research. I want to learn.

I want to inform myself, what is the vaccine? What's going into my child? What's happening? And because of that and the information that they then get their hands on, they then make the decision to not vaccinate their child because they think. that they have been able to do, quote unquote, more research. then an institution or then a body of science or medicine. And so in the same way, like you, like you've gone you've read a book on artificial intelligence. That's what I think a lot of people are do. And I'm not saying you are doing this, by the way, but then someone might go, no, I've read a book on. artificial intelligence, ergo, I now know it for myself.

And it's like, no, no, no, no. Trust me, a data scientist and an engineer who's actually quoted that they know it. more than you do. The book has tried to give you some sort of introduction to it, but the expert is still the expert of it. And so I think what I mean by all of this is, yeah, we like America. An example. I used to think that a lot of America's. decisions were from like a lack of knowledge. And I think it is in many ways. But. I also think it's like it's like the history of the place. Right? Look at what America was.

When it becomes this world power, it's a coming together. It's a university. Of everyone, the brightest thinkers, you know, the smartest from Eastern. Europe, the, the most brilliant from, from like the UK. The, it's. just this melting pot of the most brilliant human beings have come together. And you could argue at some point America is the bastion of like science. and freedom and ideas and thinking in the schools of difference, etc., etc., etc. and I think like most systems, or even like most people, you can think that.

that will just maintain itself, but you might be stuck in time. And so I think America still thinks that it is ahead of the world in everything, because it may have been at a time, but I, I, I. have I have a lot of compassion for people who are in that system because I go, you know, it's Plato's Cave. If you're in the cave, how could you know that you're in the cave? If the caves tell you that it's not a cave, it's. the only world you've ever been in. So how do I give you that responsibility?

I think we should put the responsibility at the feet the same way. I don't think it's our responsibility to recycle. I think it's the government's responsibility. to make sure that the things. that need to be recycled aren't even made in the first place. So I think both things can be true, though. I'm with you. Are there my sister 100%? Because, I mean. It's not 100%. And because I really do believe in the idea of experts. I really do like I want. This is also the thing I often say I want a president who knows more than I do, like I, you know, I want someone in every country that I.

But anyway, that's not the case. But yes, we want experts and yes, misinformation is is increasingly a problem. But I think there is still and what you said. about people who read about vaccines, I mean, I take your point, but I think that those people is it fair to say that they have already started. with a kind of conspiracy theory point of view, which will then, I think, ship where they read? Because if we are talking about experts, maybe they should go to the.

maybe the CDC website, but but they don't. To that point, though, what I think there is, there is no center right now. You know, when we're talking about the. So that's that's the point. That's what I mean about even the, even the idea of experts has become corrupt. Yeah, that's what I mean. Because don't forget the CDC were the same ones who told people not to wear masks. Yes, because they actually just wanted to make sure masks didn't get run out, like the masks were not taken away from the doctors, but they lied to the people. Honest about that, you see. So now imagine somebody going, wait, they lied.

Yeah. And they go, yeah, but we lied for good reasons. The same way. Like any child therapist will tell you, your kid doesn't care why you lied. They just know that you lied. And now they know that lying is allowed. Even though Mommy or daddy says lying is not allowed. because they've watched your actions. And I think that's what I mean. It's like if somebody has been lied to by the CDC about. maybe they had good intentions, but they've been lied to, how do they now then trust that same CDC versus now, the account. that told them something else and then that account happened to be true.

And you just need like a few truths to start sprinkling in the rest of the lies. Right? If the if your baseline. But that's CDC action. How do we feel about it? I mean, can we really not make a distinction between. I think it was terrible. So do. I, yes. But does it cause you to then distrust everything the CDC says? No, I think for most rational people it doesn't. But we're in a heightened time where there is a, like a lot of institutional distrust. I mean, I'm sorry, I, I, my husband thinks I'm susceptible to cults.

I'm not like everyone is like. I think. Everyone is. Just what the algorithm feeds you. But it's been a destabilizing few years. And you that I think everyone is asking themselves this question, what is true. and what do I believe? What am I? And that's why we're because of the fear we're going to hold these extremes. And for a lot of people that just like I'd, I'd the CDC did this one thing. Well, forget the CDC. Yes. Do you know what I mean? Whether that's right or not, I can't really judge, but I think there's just so much mistrust. You know, honestly, that's probably one of the biggest reasons I do love fiction.

One of the biggest reasons I love fiction. is because I do not have to question whether it's real or not, and then I'm more susceptible to the message that it's giving me. I mean, this, honestly. Is the last frontier. Yeah, because. When it is fact, I. Oh, who said this? Who said, what's the data, what's the information, what's that? And we do episodes on this all the time. We talk about these things. The data's flawed. The the study was flawed. The people running. But with fiction I just go, this is the world you've created. I don't. have to question its realness, but the messages.

I can completely accept, disagree with, respond to. Because in a weird way, fiction creates. the most real reality. It does, it does. You couldn't have said it better, probably. Hahaha. People should read more novels and short stories, I agree, and sometimes. even the old ones, because there's just lovely wisdom in them, I think. I mean. Do you have any favorites you recommend?

Older? Oh no. Oh yeah. Old. I really like Middlemarch. I think it's very it's very long, but it's very wise. and just really. I was going to say it teaches you, but actually does. Yeah. You know, in a way that you're having fun, but you're also learning and, and you're in the hands of a very wise writer. There's a wonderful writer from Poland. who wrote this book called The Beautiful Mrs.. And I cannot pronounce the name Sidon Man. But if you just go to the beautiful Mrs.

It, I'm sure. It will come out. I also just find it very. wise. I love realism, I don't really like speculative fiction. I'm not interested in science fiction, and I just feel like I learned the most from novels because. I learned about human beings. And I think it helps. It helps me understand the world and helps me. Oh, there's something I forgot to see, which I have to see, which is so. I increasingly I'm fascinated by how what people think is sophisticated. is, in fact, not at all.

I mean, there's a sense in which the the arguments and the position. are really incredibly simple and simplistic. But but the people. Who who talk about them think that they're very sophisticated. Yes. And I'm thinking about that because of what you said. about a certain kind of, maybe an an insufficient self-knowledge. So, in other words, the way that America thinks that is, is still.

leading the world. Yes, is the same way that I think certain people in America. think that they're incredibly sophisticated in their thinking. But actually it's very provincial and simple. Yes, that I can agree with. Yeah. On that note, thank you. Thank. You, thank you. Thank you very much for all this was this was too much fun for me. So, Miss Trotsky tell me. I'm I'm so. Glad. Yeah. No I'm not. God wanted me. And you don't me to trouble. Thank you very.

What now with Trevor Noah is produced. by Spotify Studios in partnership with Day Zero Productions. The show is executive produced by Trevor Noah. Samas Yamin and Jody AV. Again, our senior producer is Jess Heckle. Claire Slaughter is our producer. Music mixing and mastering by Hannah Brown. Thank you so much for listening. Join me next Thursday for another episode of What Now?