The Ozempic Obsession with Jia Tolentino | What Now? with Trevor Noah Podcast

I'm not a scientist and none of this is actual advice. Please take everything. Imagine I am an idiot who stumbled into your village. Now you can listen to me. This is what now. with Trevor Noah. Christiana. Nice to see you in person. Good to see you. This is so much fun, a friend. Haven't seen you in so, like. Like this.

I know in the flesh. We used to do this every day. Yeah. Remember? Yeah. We always make this show every day. Every single day of our lives. Yeah, I was like, I loved it. He liked it so much. You quit? Yeah, I. man. I'm excited to have this conversation today. because, I mean, I'm excited for conversations, but, like, this conversation is is one that I don't even think. we'll be able to complete today, which I think all good conversations.

are, strangely enough, and this one in particular intrigues me because. everybody's talking about Ozempic. Right? And we're not talking about ozempic the product today. I think that's that's going to be important for everyone to understand. We're just going to use that as a name for, you know, these weight. loss drugs because Ozempic Munjal, zap, pound, wiggly, you name it. You know, the point is we're talking about inject. lose weight, apparently feel great.

This is the that's my catchphrase, by the way. If they want to buy it for me. I'm. I'm available. Eli Lilly I'm available in Nova Scotia. I never know how to say their name. Yeah, I can't, but, Yeah, it's. I feel like we're at an interesting inflection point in society where. there was a point when. this would have just been would have been shunned completely. You know, I mean, people would be like, this is trash. You're cheating. Yeah. And then now it's slowly. We're like, you know. Yeah, it's like Republican, Democrat. It's like 5050 now.

It's basically like. Yeah. What do you what do you stand on this. Oh my God Trevor you can't ask me that at the beginning of the day. That's exactly that's exactly what you start at the beginning. I am pro-choice when it comes to that. Oh I like this I hate choice. I'm pro-choice. That's what I am. Yeah. So you have no moral judgment or opinion on it? No, I have I've seen friends and family members.

on the drug and see how it's seen how it's changed their life. Okay. So this is what I'd love to know. Change their lives. In what way? Beyond. the weight, they seem more comfortable in their body. Some of them had, like, back and me issues, you know, some some people. It was just like, yeah, they were struggling. Some people were like, they kind of regulated their appetite. They're drinking less. So when you see it from that perspective, it's been like, oh wow. So I'm pro the choice. But I'm not pro. The societal pressure that I think some people fail to take.

Okay okay okay. Well let's let's bring in our special guest today. I wanted to bring in, a writer, a cultural critic, and somebody who I. think has some of the most informed and then fantastic personal opinions. on this topic because she has written about it. You know, her work probably from The New Yorker. If you read, if you don't read, then maybe you don't know her. And this will be your introduction to her. Gia Tolentino, welcome, welcome to the podcast. Thank you for having me. Are you kidding me? Thank you for joining us.

I'm going to apologize in advance. for all the ignorance I'm going to bring to this conversation, but I feel like it's my purpose. As my mother used to say when I was young. Be of service. be of service. So if I'm surrounded by two brilliant, smart people, I have to now balance the conversation the other way around. I think you heard the question I asked Christiana. So let's let's start from your personal, just like purely personal, no scientific, no nothing point of view. Where where do you stand when it comes to these ozempic type drugs?

I think I think about ozempic the way I think about a lot of. cultural phenomena, which is I have a lot of thoughts about it at a sort of macro level. And then in terms of anyone's individual use or not use of it, other than I have a group chat where my friends. sometimes send pictures of celebrities. and like to make fun of the fact that I never know who it is. because everyone looks so different. But yeah, I mean, I'm, I'm I'm pro-choice too, you know, like, it's. Yeah, it's none of my damn business. what anyone's doing with their own body. You know, it's interesting.

you bring up the thing about celebrities because, like I've noticed now, there's a there's a, you know, we talk about the shame game and the blame. There's like, there's this game. now where people see someone and they're like, oh, that's ozempic. Oh, that's what I've noticed with me. Depending on like how someone. takes a picture of me so I won't be like you. them and like, I've never lost weight. But then sometimes I go like, it seems like it's become, in a way, it's almost become a bit of a, like a slur or like an insult. It's like, oh, I see you run ozempic.

Are you one of them? Yeah. Trump is the only one that you really? Because the Republican Party, he's on those. and everyone calling him like why is saying no then pick Trump. They're calling him as them pick Trump. Donald Trump allegedly these don't come for me please. Allegedly. Wow. He looks different. I believe that, yeah. I can see him now. Ozempic. well, I hope you know this. I do have thoughts on. You know, I think that one of the things.

that our whole fascination with those and big is based on is. And it's interesting, you know, because you. I wonder if you have thoughts with little kids. Right. Part of beauty is thinness, as it's taught to you. from a really early age, like fatness, queerness, darkness, all of these things are like coded as signs of deviance. I like you, you learn as a really young child. in Disney movies, in anything like beauty is really coded as morality. And there's a Protestant work ethic thing, right? It's something that you should. achieve through hard and punitive work and discipline.

Right? Yeah. And when people use those, I think it's like you. cheated, you skipped the hard work, but you know. Yeah. And so you got the thing we demanded of you. But now we find this a vaguely immoral thinness. Like you worked hard to achieve the right thing. Okay, I hear what I hear. Just. Yeah, it's funny, because I don't know how. it was for you growing up, but so I have I've had an interesting journey with, weights. and how I perceive it and fatness, etc. because I grew up in South Africa genuinely growing up.

This is such a weird thing to try and explain to people in South Africa. You did not get made as much fun of if you were fat. Like so like a fat person, you just be like, I mean, I don't even remember if we had that many names, but I remember all the ones for skinny people was sticks, man. Sansa. It was. That was my favorite was that sticks. My Sansa skinny manly. It was like there were all these names. where it was just like you. You're a twig, you're feeding you. And it was a sign there of of, a lack of having.

Yeah. If you got married and you didn't gain. weight, people would say that your marriage is not going well. Literally. They'd be like, is your wife not treating you well? I mean, I know, I mean, look at you. If I would come home from the States and like many times. I would, I'd come back from America and I gained weight. And so whenever I go home, people were like, are you looking good? Me? You're looking good, America. Treating you well. We are looking for Norm and you are looking good. Look at your cheeks. You're looking good. And then and and so where I grew up,

fatness was considered like sort of a choice. and then being skinny was like, look, your life is not going well. and you're not making the right choices for sure. So it's interesting how it flips, you know, and I'm sure it's time as well. But in both cases it's about wealth, right? I mean oh yeah. So with cases for sure. Like the thing that is valued. is always the thing that's correlated with wealth. And it's I feel like that's been the case. You look through art history, right? The, the fuller figures are valued at a time when it's, you know, right.

Yeah. Wealthy signifying plenty. And now it's signifying, you know, I got a trainer, I got a cook, I got a, you know, I mean, it's funny that you mention the childhood stuff that it brings up. because recently it was approved for children. Oh. It was. Yeah. right. And there are parents who are making the decision. I don't know about that. I mean, trepidation is very visceral. You're like, giving it to kids, but, like, I'll tell you why. I'll tell you. why. I do not think. that these types of drugs should be approved for children.

I personally believe that there are still. a whole host of things that you can do to get that child, like if you're giving them this drug, I'm assuming it's. because they wait is really detrimental to their health. Otherwise it's it's weird, like you just trying to make like a sexy kid. I mean, it's weird. It's so crazy. But, I mean, mothers, a lot of older girls who are, like, pre-teens and teenagers, and they'll show you pictures. of their daughter and be like, oh, but this one is to lose weight. You know, like mothers. It it's so encoded in our culture that there are mothers out there.

and fathers out there, just like you need to lose weight. I mean, most people's relationship with food don't come from themselves. They often come from their parents and their families. It's so interesting that all of this concern about what. creates health for kids always comes down to food and weight, right? And it's like there's so much other stuff. It's like it's housing policy. It's like it's food stamp policy, right? It's all of these things and it's like funding for research. and, you know, and for like physical activities.

and for and for all these things because, you know, there are. there are levers you can pull to change your body. certainly during childhood and that, you know, like it's it's. not to say that lifestyle and the what you eat does affect it. But you know, there I talked to doctors that are, you know, they're the patients their their kids are in food deserts. and they have nobody that can take them outside. And they it's not safe. to be outside where there they are just kind of sitting in a room, you know, all day because of, you know, this myriad of structural factors.

And so the only lever to pull, for these complicating conditions is a drug like this. And this is everywhere in the world, but America in particular is very, very good at treating the symptoms and not the cause. Yeah. Like very, very, very, very good. Yeah. You know what I mean. Like like America will fight for money that way. Yeah. America will find a lot of money to like, imprison homeless people, but then won't find ways to stop people from becoming homeless. Yeah, you know what I mean. America will find you. Enrich the private prisons. Exactly, exactly. So, so so this feels like one of those situations again,

where it's like we are going to now approve a drug for children, but not ask ourselves. why these children would need that drug in the first place. Because I don't know, was Nigeria the same how what's what? What was weight like in Nigeria like really interesting. There is this cultural. The body that's idealize is quite hard to get. So it's like yes, big hips, tiny waist and big boobs and a big bum, which is pretty impossible to get right. Most people don't have it naturally,

and you're not probably going to have that after you have kids. I was always considered a bit too skinny, like my grandma was like, I remember she saying to me once she was crying. and my mom was like, why are you crying? She was just like, she calls me my name. Am I should be just like, who's going to marry Amma? She's got bones. That's, you know, you know, if you actually go to West Africa. in particular, you see a lot of body diversity. Yeah. So you see, like, really tall women, really muscular women. And like, in Nigeria, I think the most the biggest indicator. about how bodies naturally are is that does your tribe.

have a fattening room, which is like before a woman gets married, she has to go to a room instead of fattening. They call a fattening room where you have to like, I'm fat. because the cows are just naturally quite muscular, especially in. like in the southeast, quite muscular and like, you know what I mean? So you know what that means. Fatness is supposed to be good, a sign of fertility. But then again, how long do you stay in the room till you get fat? I love this, yeah. Oh, I don't know. I don't know about that. Oh, okay. It depends on how they make you fat. Is it like they just eat like, giving you yams and thick, thick food?

Carbohydrates, basically. And lots of meat to make you bigger. They're not like force feeding you. You just eating. I mean, the girls didn't. want to get fat or get married, so it's kind when. All right, like, once again, a fun Christiana story. Sorry, guys. Ends with oppression. It always gets dark. Oh, well, I want to know, do you, like, when did you. When and why did you start writing about Ozempic? Because you were one of the first people writing about this, you know, before it became the way, before it became the trend. I remember there was a moment pre ozempic, it just wasn't a thing.

And then there were whispers. Yeah. And then all of a sudden you heard Elon. Musk was on it and you're like, wait, what's happening here? Yeah. Well I think cause I kind of think of the Kardashians as, you know, the sort of weather vane for what the winds of sort of capital. Hilarious. And, you know, like deeply punitive, technologically based beauty. standards, you know, like, you can literally see. written upon their bodies. what women all across the country are going to then,

do you know, and this really kind of amazing, terrifying way. And so, you know, I, I think I it was, it was like that no one had ever heard of it. And then, you know, I started to hear about. there was this shot that was intended for treating, the chronic conditions caused by type two diabetes. that women and like, you know, some women in Hollywood were taking. and their bodies were suddenly visibly changing. And it was interesting to me to begin with because, you know, like, I, I grew up in,

you know, the 90s, the early 2000s. and in sort of very conservative Houston, Texas, like, deep. within this hegemonic, like white dominated the age of sort of the only people that are. beautiful are like Paris Hilton, you know, and Britney Spears. And that was the body prescribed. And then we had this sort of Obama era, you know, grand. democratization of culture, which included, you know, people started to have open dialog. about how you could be healthy at every size, which you can.

Right. And that all sorts of bodies are beautiful. And I always felt a little skeptical of the sort of dove. ad body positivity thing, for reasons we can get it to later. But I thought, okay, finally, like we have reached a new era, maybe will unlock the sort of hold that white diet. culture is out on America since the 20s, basically. And then this happened and it was like, oh, oh no, no, we're swinging. I mean, that was my initial interest. I was like, I thought we had already changed, that we were going to stay on this. train of, of, you know, openness and I don't know.

And, and, and the sharp swing back, and what that meant. for the way people talked. and thought about beauty, I thought was extremely interesting. And then so I just started tracking it. So here's the thing. I wonder, though, do you do you think that utopia can ever exist? And, you know, because I mean, like, I don't know, sometimes. I'm a little simple in this thinking in that I go, we're still animals. and animals also judge each other based on some physical aspect,

and we're no different. I just think what happens to us that's particularly different is. there are tastemakers that exist in different spheres. who sort of like pull the levers to decide, like how we define. where the, you know, the Overton Window of beauty actually exists. Yeah. And whether one of health is, do you think that our conversations these days. lie in beauty, or do they lie in health. or is it people using health to masquerade their views. on what they think beautiful is?

Yeah, I think it's like the latter. Right. And I think even if we were in this utopia. where we accepted everyone's bodies, like, I think The Economist did a piece about talking about the fact. that, like, women's salaries are pegged to what they weigh. Yes. And I feel like if you lose a certain amount of weight, your salary goes up. Yeah. So it's just like the market forces, for whatever. reason, we know the reasons reward being skinny. And by the way, did you see the opposite is true for men. Interesting.

The more a woman gains in weight, the more her salary goes down. And with men, the bigger they get. Like the rounder, I guess it's like because you look like King Richard or those vibes. He's just like Henry. Yeah, yeah, it's like those vibes, like, toward my subjects. The more like bulbous you become. The your money actually, like, people don't penalize you at all. They're just like, yeah, this dude knows what he's talking about. He ate a pig that had an apple in the mouth. Yeah. And I think for women, it's always going to be you are judged. That connection between morality.

Yes, and beauty and health. I think people just collapse it into one. They don't see them as different things. Even if they use a language like, don't you want to be healthy? Right? You know, when. but they're saying to someone, don't you want to lose weight? And I think it's going to be harder for women to escape that. Unfortunately. So okay, let me ask this question now, is there a moral way for people to engage in conversations. about weight, weight loss, health and how it pertains to people like Jia?

You know, you've done a lot of research in this, Christiane, I know you've talked about this for. for years, but like, where do you think we find the the. where do you think we find the sweet spot? I think it exists, and I think probably the people. that are the best at it are fat people. You know, I think that there are a lot of people that have been. that have spent, you know, that it's been like this. cultural, discursive work in the last 15 years to establish. a whole vocabulary for how we could be talking about these things. Right. And it's incredibly difficult. in reporting this piece, even in and talking to people like,

I think that the fear of fat. and the bias against it is it would come out quite casually. I'm sure it's built into me in some way, you know, in the way that I think about it. But I think that there is a way to get some basic facts on the table, right, that BMI is based on, you know, like BMI is like a racist, you kind of eugenicist standard and, and like, and, and there can be serious conditions that correlate with obesity. But that doesn't mean that, you know, obesity or.

excess weight is in itself right, harmful. You know, and so much of this. is really arguably down to physician bias as well. Right? Like there there are OB gyns that won't treat women over a certain BMI. There's so many, so many like statistically, doctors self-report, you know, beliefs about patients that are quote unquote. overweight or obese. And, you know, they they treat them differently, they underdiagnosed, they undertreated, they attribute.

all health problems to, yeah, you need to lose weight in ways. that are never sort of suspected about people of different sizes. And, you know, there's like, yeah, I think there was a there was a story I read. It might have been one of your stories. actually, where there was a woman who was struggling to breathe. Yeah. And yeah, it was blood. Yes. Yeah, yeah. That was like, oh you're like your lungs are simply fat. Yeah, yeah. Diet. You know like. Yeah. And she actually had she have lung cancer clots I had blood clots. Yeah. Yeah. But I think you know your. you mostly find the healthy way of talking about it.

And people. who have had to like advocate for themselves. against all of these things for a long time. I also think fundamentally, probably the healthiest way to talk about. health is to kind of set weight aside altogether, right, and talk about other metrics like VO2 Max and I. Yeah, I don't know what that means. No, no, no, really, I know I hear VO2 Max is the gold standard. That's actually they say VO2 max. So VO2 max is your body's ability.

to withdraw or to extract oxygen from every breath. There you go I love that. Apparently that's it. There are so many other metrics to talk about health. that have nothing to do with weight, and probably. that would be the healthiest way of talking about weight, is having it. be just sort of an. incidental byproduct of all these other lifestyle factors. We're going to continue this conversation. right after this short break.

And let's let's talk a little bit about the drugs themselves. Like the actual way that the drugs work I, I was lucky. I had a conversation with the the CEO of Eli Lilly. and some of the scientists who work there. because I wanted to understand. Yeah, what is this thing? So I'll, I'll break it down. And I know you're the expert, so please jump in. A few decades ago, there was a scientist. who discovered that there was a essentially a hormone. that was released into your body, that told your body you were full, right? And they wanted to study what this thing was.

GLP one, they called it. Could they never call it easy things like Patrick, which they should, because then it would help us if scientists were just like, we're going to call this Patrick, then we all know what Patrick is. But anyway, scientists found GLP one. This is something that makes your body feel. full, makes you feel satisfied. I think is a is a more important word. And they wanted to study it but they couldn't the like. All right. How do we figure it out? They found a lizard. They always find a lizard. And they're like, we can reproduce this. You fast forward, they realize that this drug can help people who have diabetes. Then they're like, okay, this is for diabetes, this is for diabetes.

But then someone goes, wait a minute, it's not just diabetes. People are losing weight. Yeah. And then like, And then like all drug companies, the same way they did with Viagra, they were like, we're trying to help people with their blood pressure and the like. Have you noticed that all these people. are getting erections and they're like, everyone stop. We don't give a shit about blood pressure. We've just struck gold. But what I found most fascinating about this. is to what you said, Christiana, when we started the conversation,

if we have the conversation about weight loss, I feel like. we're missing something bigger that we're discovering right now. And these drugs are helping us understand. something about self-control and how it has been robbed from us. Because people take pills or whatever, right? The first thing they do is they don't eat as much. We knew that would happen. Okay, fine, it's working. But then people go, oh, I don't drink alcohol the same way anymore. I don't watch as much TV.

I don't use social media. I'm not even on my phone as much. I don't gamble as much. And you just like we were worried. What? Impulsive shopping. Yeah. About that. Someone stopped. And so, you know, I almost wonder if, in. discovering this solution, have we now. exposed all of the poisonous problems that society. has unleashed upon itself? Does this make sense? Yeah. We don't judge. gambling or drinking or online shopping in the same way that we do.

Wait, so that was what the person was fixated on. I got on Ozempic to lose weight, but they discovered all these other parts of themselves. that they were waking to, like, I actually spend too much money. Like a woman said she was going through target. and she wasn't putting things in her class. This is what, the same way. And I found that so interesting. We don't see like excessive shopping. the same way we see excessive eating. and I think that's the most interesting part of the drug. Well, this is this is taking it in a slightly different direction. But what what this part of the conversation.

makes me think of. and what I think this thing that was in the back of my head. when I was writing and thinking about it, was that. like, one of the reasons that I, I, you know, on a macro level, find it really sad when people. who are extremely thin take it to take this to become much thinner. Right? Is that like what it is to be human like we're made up of our appetites, right? Like that. That's one of the defining. I like the things of what we seek and what we literally physically. hunger for. And, you know,

like our our desire for pleasure and relief and, and excitement. Right? These things are important. And they they make us human. And back to the conversation about kids. It's like so much of. the rise of obesity in children seems directly related to the fact. that people are so afraid of fat children in the first place, right? Like that children are taught to fear their appetites and fear the snack. jar, like the idea of just kind of natural pleasure in our appetite. seems to be the thing that, might possibly.

lead to the healthiest relationship with them in all cases, right? To not need to to like, indulge and have guilty pleasures. and sort of secret little things. Right. That that, that if these appetites if we could sort of have it. treat them normally in all respects and like it seems like American. consumer culture just blows all of these kind of compulsions. sky high because of this fear we have of Apple. I think my slight pushback to that is like being a Brit in America.

is that, yeah, it's actually very hard. to have a regulated relationship with the food. Yes, when there are very few pleasures. So food is like a very interesting pleasure, like it's. I think that's okay. If you're like in a country where it's like. there's a park down the road, I can play tennis for free. Like it's just like you get pleasure and it is what it is like for you. One of the dopamine in this country, I feel like food. and alcohol are the only cheap, accessible pleasures.

Yeah. Like if if we were in a more balanced, I guess, culture, then I'd be like, sure, enjoy the pleasure of food. Because then you can regulate that pleasure. because you're getting pleasure everywhere, but people don't get to it's a really interesting idea, unity. They don't have any other pleasures. But that's what I mean, right. If we could, if we could like, honor our need, like, like. we were saying outside time and safe. Yeah, yeah. And like the labor market. being organized differently so that it's not like. you have to squeeze all your pleasure into, like, two minute micro installments, like, you know, six times a day, right?

Like, I think we would have a very different relationship. to compulsion and appetite and pleasure and relief if, you know, if American society were set up in such a way. that would, like, honor people as like beings that need these. So this isn't unique to America. I don't want it because like England, like. of course, is pretty tough right now. Yeah. It's like, yeah, well, I have seen I think, I think something we, we, we also have to consider is this one of my biggest beefs is that. corporations have found. ways to create messaging that tricks people.

into making the corporations problem their problem. Yeah. In the same way, oil companies scammed us. into thinking that recycling was our job. Right? And they make it about individuals. Yeah. You need to recycle. Yeah. No no no no. Let me tell you something. Recycling is not our job. The job is to not make the thing in the first place. We take for granted how many times. when we ignore, how many times we get tricked.

into believing that it's us? And I think the same thing has happened with food and indulgence. in America and in the rest of the world. Yeah. Is where, you know, to your point, G is like. people have been made to feel guilty about their appetites. and about their indulgence and about that. And then we create this world where we now fight with each other. Why are you letting your kid eat so much? Well, I cottonwoods, my child, is their appetite. Yeah. I don't want to stop. I don't want to make them guilty. And no one seems to be. Not no one. But like I think sometimes we forget to ask the question. Like, wait, why is it impossible for you to tell your child.

to stop eating those chips? If we live in a society where we blame people. for the addiction catching them, but don't ask. who's imposing the addiction upon them, then I feel like we're playing a game of whac-a-mole. telling everybody in society that they need to be better, when in fact we were ignoring the fact that, you know, yeah, for sure. These ozempic type drugs, as much as we're focusing on them as the conversation, I feel like. they've exposed this underbelly of addiction that we've all allowed.

Yeah, I think Trevor, you what you're getting at. is that we've always thought. all of these things are just a question of willpower. Yes. And and the response I think your piece touches on that as well. It's not about, you know, it's not willpower. Like the system is basically working against all of us. And some of us are able to resist better than others. and resist some of it by some of it. But I think it's it's caught all of us in a way. Yeah. I feel like that's the whole story of. of the entire conversation around weight. Right? Like it's who was making the money off of them. and who's making the money off of the cure.

So it's like they always follow the money. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So let's. so let's talk a little bit about, about, you know, if we move beyond. appetites per se and we come back to the world of these drugs, what they're doing and how people are, are using them, have we now entered. a new world? You know what you're saying, where this will become another instance. of the haves being able to escape another ill in society?

There's a it's almost like we've put a price. on people being able to evade. this thing, this net of addiction that has been cost upon everyone. So I think just to help in it, like we're talking about ozempic so much because people lose weight. and we think losing weight is the better thing to do. And now it means that there will be a class of people that can do that. and not have to go through the cruelty of fat phobia, and it's going to. be the people with money that can perhaps escape that everyday cruelty.

And then the people that don't can't do that. Well, yeah, I think one of the things that does seem maybe. meaningfully new about this is that the beauty. standards of the last decade seem to me to be this really. kind of insidious. arms race between like digital enhancement. And then technological alteration to match digital enhancement, and then you digitally enhanced more and then use technology. to further sort of shape inject. Yeah, whatever.

Like the thing that really scares me is. the idea that an unaltered body or face is aberrant or deviant. and sort of acceptable that like, that's the thing that I find, really like existentially terrifying. Damn. Yeah. It's almost like, in those, you know, when you watch those cyberpunk future movies. where, like, people are judged. because they don't have cybernetics now, you know, so everyone has. Yeah. And that's that's an interesting way. You've just put it now. it becomes judgment because like, well,

why aren't you making yourself better? Yeah. And I think plenty of people who are fat and healthy and perfectly. happy in their lives. are now hit with the sort of unbearable. wave of like, well, why don't you just get the little jab, you know, because now. it seems like you're actively making a choice to not be healthy. Or why wouldn't you? And why wouldn't you conform? Right. Like it's. So here's a question I do have. I'm going to throw a few things at you. and everybody at trigger warnings. Everybody trigger warning every year. Trigger warning. And feel free to plead the fifth.

No one needs to speak, okay? I don't wish to bring anybody down with me. All right? And the pilot will tell you to jump out of the plane. before I take it on this dive. So let's let's let's get let's get messy. with a few of these of these moments, in these conversations, sometimes it feels and I'm speaking for people. And because I generally don't think I struggle with this as much myself. But I do know that there's a little inconsistency or what. people perceive as a as a flipping of a narrative. When a celebrity, let's just deal with celebrities. Celebrities will come out. They go, I love my body, my body's great.

They build fans based on that body and that body being great. Fans are like, we love your body, your body's great. We're all with you and then the celebrity pops out. Like after six months, they've just disappeared and they come back. and they've got a completely new body. And then they're like, hey, I've got a new body. Yeah. And then people are like, yo, what the wait, what just happened here? And they're like, no, I love this body. Because actually I wasn't healthy. and I wasn't happy and my knees were hurting me. Whatever it might be. And then they get a, a level of backlash.

from the people that were body. positive who are now sort of anti. body positive because now their body is gone a different way. Does this make sense and almost feels like in the same way. everything else in society has become like a cult. It's like it's sometimes feels like we are not working. towards a place where people can be the way they wish to be. We're working to a place where people can be the way. we wish them to be, and then if they deviate from that, we kick them out.

You get I'm saying, like, look at how many people were angry. at Adele for losing weight. Yeah, angry at Jennifer Hudson. Angry at her. Do you know what I mean? I, you know, not to speak on behalf of fat people or fat women at all, but I think there's such so little imagery of women. that had perhaps Adele's old body or Jennifer Hudson's Our Body. There was something very comforting for people. to see a fat woman who's thriving and have this incredible career.

Right. and there's like this disappointment or resentment. when that celebrity band changes their body. I speculate some of that. Well, I mean, I mentioned earlier, like the whole dove, every, you know, everyone is beautiful like the big. the the beginning of the sort of corporatized body. positivity movement. It seemed dangerous to me immediately because it seemed like, no, like, actually beauty is this sort of arbitrary. assignation based on people's conformity to market forces.

It's not like a it's not like a spiritual moral good. Like it was this whole thing that was really important to say. that everyone was beautiful, as if to say everyone is good. And it was like, no, no, no, everyone is good and worthy. But perhaps that has nothing to do with beauty. Oh, wow. That's fascinating. Yeah. And it seemed to me like perhaps. it is just much more important to say, like, everyone is worthy. and beauty is not as important as we ever thought it was at all. Like, it's just this thing to dumb that down in a way, it's it's. almost like what you're saying is it's body neutrality.

Yeah, I like that as a that's I never I never thought of that actually. And just seemed like, oh, this is a thing. that people are going to make a lot of money off of. Now we're trying to get to we're still trying to get to beauty. Okay. Hold on. There's this thick whole article from 2016, but the headline is this plus size model was inspiring. But then she lost 100 pounds, which was also inspiring. even though she was already perfect before. But she's also perfect now. You know what it was like. Like it's it's like this very like, like, and it's like, this is the sort of circular hamster wheel that you get into.

when it's like everyone's beautiful. But also health is good, but also we love you no matter what you do. But also some choices are socially weighted. And it's just so so so yeah. Okay. Good. Oh I just wanted to throw Tracy in. Oh definitely. McMillan Cottom the brilliant sociologist. She talks about structural ugliness. Right. This is the thing about. like how beauty is like the structural concept of like, even though you can feel beautiful in an individual level structurally. if you are dark skin, fat and you are seen as ugly.

And I think what exemplar is getting at is just like, it's this cure. to that structural ugliness of weight that's interesting. That's what a lot of thinkers are trying to resist that. Like, why have we made being bigger, structurally uglier? So, you know, I so there's two things. Okay, first of all, I think we shouldn't forget. And this is why it's hard to have these conversations in society, I believe, because people weaponize certain parts of conversations. Yeah. And use it as a cudgel against others. Let's take it to like athletes.

LeBron James had to lose a lot of weights. Or he decided, or rather, LeBron James decided to lose a lot of weight, LeBron said. If I want my knees to take the pounding. that they're going to take me, jumping me, it is easier if I carry less weight. It is easier for me to run across a court if I carry less weight. I think the thing we shouldn't take for granted is, is like, I almost wish there was a world where we could all go into good, good faith conversation land. Yeah, you know where we can talk about health,

but it cannot be used against somebody else in like a shitty way. Yeah. A doctor can say, hey, you do want to try and. and work out as much as possible because good for your heart. But then someone's not going to point to someone, go like, you. See, you piece of trash. Yeah, but it is important for people to know, like the lifting of weights. Just like just like resistance. training has been shown to be one of the most important. factors in longevity and not I'm not saying living long. I'm saying. living as a functional person for as long as possible. So that's that's like, okay, so I agree with you, but I think I'm Gia, you probably understand what I say here as a woman in those spaces.

Sometimes it is so hard to disconnect the pursuit of longevity and health. for the pursuit of a body, especially in a city like LA, New York. I'm with you. People won't disapprove. Trust me. And mean it's not exactly the same. Yeah, but we also. And I. I'm not saying it's exactly the same. because we don't get judged the same. But I know there's guys there's also a, there's also a difficulty. You're standing in the gym and you're going I'm here to look healthy. But also, man, I'm so far from my body.

Yeah. I'm so I'm so far off know, I don't know like Chris Evans. I'm so back in America. I think back to the LeBron thing though. It's like you know. he has very specific needs for physical performance for his body. But that that that many of that all of us do not. But I think it's an interesting thing to bring up because the question is. how does he need to live in and. or change his body to do the things that he wants to do with it? Yes, even that as a way that people would talk, even that would be just a really nice it would be amazing right about.

like it's like for people like if weight was incidental. to that, it was like, can you do the things in your life and love that you, you know, do you feel I love that, I actually love that. And it's like, that is probably the foundation that, you know, that that could be the start. That's amazing. What we we need to get that somewhere. Yeah. Because I feel like that could make a meaningful difference. It's like, hey, can you do. can you lift your overhead luggage in the plane comfortably? Can you lift your child comfortably?

Can you move a couch? But it's only the things you do. Can you live your life the way you would like to? Yeah. And like, do you feel good? Do you feel good in your body? Right. I think that's what I was thinking about the like, appetite and pleasure thing. Right. Like if that was valued. Right. Like people just feeling good in all. Man, I really love that idea. Like, it seems extremely health conducive, right? Yes. We need to get we need to get D'Angelo to come back and do a remix. And this one would be like, how do you feel? That's what it would be.

Don't go anywhere because we got more. What now? After this? You know what? You know what? I also realize as we're speaking about this, whether we like to admit it or not, humans are generally judgmental, right? We hold and cost judgments upon other people. because it either makes us feel like we are doing well, or it makes us.

Whatever it is, there's reasons we do it right. I think we shouldn't ever take for granted the fact that fatness is. one of the few things that somebody can see on you. that tells them something about you in some way, shape or form. You don't know what it's telling you, but you can see it's yeah, but like, think of it this way. If somebody has a has a gambling problem or likes gambling. or whichever way you want to put it. that you can't tell. If somebody drinks a lot of alcohol is addicted.

to alcohol or likes alcohol drinks on occasion. you can't tell do you get what I'm saying. Yeah. And I think what's what's strange about fatness. is it is one of the few things where people from far. can just assume many things about you because they can like, sort of see it from the outside. and not just make judgments but express those judgments. Yes, but I think with fat people, we're very prescriptive. We are like and sometimes as well. And we see that body is like. this is kind of like, are you sure you want to eat? That is a thing said to people who are fat.

Or like, I saw a TikTok, a woman was like. being fat and exercising is people on the street going, go you. I'm so proud of you. And you're like, I'm just to the right. You like, why do you feel this need. to like, encourage the people trying to be nice but like what's. Yes. Like, yeah. So someone that should be pitied and needs my encouragement. in a way that's kind of infantilizing you. and I think that's the thing about Fatphobia. We just feel like we can say anything to people who are fat. Yeah, and it's often really cruel. That's actually a really good point.

There was a there is a thing. There is, like Harvard does this implicit bias study. and I think I mentioned it in that piece that I think it was. I'm going to get the dates wildly wrong, but it was maybe. sort of from a point in the mid 2000s to a point in recent years. They analyze sort of ten vectors of bias. about age, about skin color, about like gender, about, you know, like these various things, every single implicit and explicit. expression of bias went down in that sort of like Obama.

era, period, except for bias against weight and that. Wow. I believe both implicit and explicit. So everything went down except surprised by that? Yeah, everything in everything went down. Of the ten things tested in this particular Harvard study. Yeah. Interesting. Well, that's that's that's really fascinating. Yeah, yeah. Look, I, I think, I think, you know, as we said in the beginning. of this conversation, this feels like. a, an inflection point and a moment where.

the conversations we have going forward. are going to continuously evolve, because now there's been a new agent. that's been introduced. Yeah. I feel like we're we're at that point now with these ozempic type drugs. is they're now making us ask questions. that go far beyond the questions that we've sort of been comfortable. living in for a while. And those questions are, what is health? Are we trying to promote health. or are we trying to promote our moral superiority.

upon other human beings? Yeah. Are we trying to, you know, run around shaming people because it makes us feel better? Why do we even feel, as you said, Christiana, that we have the rights. to do these things. And then with children, what does it mean for the future? Because again, the big thing I think we also have to include in this is. we don't know what the very long term. effects of these drugs are now because they're so new. I mean, if you think about mass adoption. for a long period of time, for people who haven't had insulin issues,

for people who don't have diabetes, we don't know. And I think that's something. people always have to be careful of is realizing that we don't know. what we do know is how we can treat people today. And so, what now. from your perspective, I'll break it down in two parts. What what do you think we're going to see now and then? What would you hope we would see now that the. that maybe we wouldn't and maybe we will. What I thought originally about the best case sort of.

the cultural effect of this, you know, the fact that this technology exists could be, is that we could kind of remove the moral valence. from every part of this conversation. possible, right, that we could understand that. metabolism and the hormonal preset that leads your body. to be a certain weight, and that all of it is much more sort. of arbitrary and, and, and kind of morally neutral. And like you said, Christiane, I like a, a sign of just all of the other things.

environmentally that you're swimming in. Like, I think that is the best thing. that something like Mozambique can do is just is lead. people to the understanding that if you can radically change people's. relationship to fullness by by one injection, then maybe it wasn't something that everyone. should have been judging people, you know, they've been very clearly. It's not something that that deserved decades of moral. a century like a full century of of moral condemnation by, like the entire beauty industry. Right?

Of course, it doesn't seem to have led there at all. And I think, I mean, I have no real predictions. other than the fact that, you know, one thing about GLP one drugs is you. in the vast majority of cases, as soon as you stop taking them, your the, your body reverts to how it was before. So the, the weight loss lasts as long as you take them basically. And, and you gain and you gain more fat, you gain it back. Yeah. So this is, this is. something we've learned about bodies, I think. from the starvation experiments back in the day. The only ones we really have, like weight is, right.

Dieting slows your metabolism. And that's one of the reasons. that fatphobia leads to obesity very directly. And and so, you know, I think I think we have yet to see. the way of, of what happens when people come off of this and reckon. with the sort of exit plan, if there is one, or the sort of lifetime use for the, for the, for this sort of like beauty use case, you know. Yeah. And I don't know what that will look like. I don't know how people will talk about it or how open it will be.

it still doesn't seem like this is something. that people talk about, frankly, when it comes to their own use of it. And I don't know, it'll be interesting to see if and when and how people ever do. Yeah, that's, that's that's a really, I think a very honest way. to look at all like all, all the potential outcomes. for what it could or might or should be. as we move forward, I will throw in like a random prediction. Okay. I think and this is a crazy thing to say, I think at some point.

the American government is going to shut these drugs down. because these drugs, if they get to like a point where they are. extremely effective because right now they don't work for some people. Yeah. But when they get to the point where, like these drugs. are just nailing it and I mean just nailing it, I think they might get shut down. Interesting. Because what is America. if people are not addicted to social media? People are not addicted to fast food. People are not addicted to junk food.

A lot of America has been built on corporations getting people. addicted, not giving them something, but getting them addicted to things. And I wonder if and I know it's like almost conspiracy theory level, but I go like, I wonder if at some point. these corporations. and these CEOs are going to phone people in Congress and go like, hey, this one drug thing is shutting down a lot of how American companies. make their money. You need to shut it down. And I don't think that that's impossible, to be honest with you.

I agree with you. I have a working theory. I think that like as there is this kind of like. anti wokeness thing happening and people are swinging to the right. I think the obsession with thinness is also an expression of that. And as long as we're kind of in this kind of right wing. populist conservative era, people are going to long to be thin. Because I think that when people talk about. when people like use woke as a slur, they'll mention people,

they'll mention movements are getting mentioned by, they'll mention body positivity, they'll mention transness, all of these things that for a brief moment for about 2 to 7. years, were coming into mainstream, almost acceptance. They weren't quite acceptance. They were coming into it. And I think that this thin, white, blond, ideal Barbie movie, guys, it's not a coincidence. It's no coincidence that like, Mattel made an ad.

and we were like, oh, we should get an Oscar. But it's just like all of that. being ascendant and like the Kardashians. that you say, rejecting like the curvy body. As long as that's the case, people are going to want to be thin. Damn. And I think the Kardashians, remembering their women being white. and even dating white men, something's happening. And then like until it swings and people are like, we don't mind. Kobe bodies, we don't mind brown skin and full lips and people. The politics, the different. I think the thinness and the impact is here to stay.

Well, as they say at the end of every great epic movie. that's about to begin, really end of part one. Jia, thank you very much for taking the time. Thank you for joining us and I hope we see you again. Thank you again. Thank you so much. What now with Trevor Noah is produced by Spotify Studios. in partnership with Day Zero Productions and Fulwell 73. The show is executive. produced by Trevor Noah, Ben Winston, Jonas Yamin and Jody Avigan.

Our senior producer is Jess Hackel. Marina Hankie is our producer, music mixing and mastering by Hamas Brown. Thank you so much for listening. Join me next Thursday for another episode of What Now?