Prince, Crack, and the Secret History of Hip-Hop

- Okie dokie. You ready? We good? We're rolling. Okay, we're rolling. And then we're rolling. - So your reputation is, you, you are a rule follower. Yo, Michael Che. I don't know what happened at, at the table with you, Michael Che. So oftentimes it Uno Oh, go. You know what?

So here's the thing. Okay, let's. get into this. Let's get into. - This. This is what now with Trevor Noah. So first, and first. and foremost, welcome, welcome to you. the listener slash viewer, if you're watching this. And welcome to our guests, the, the one and only Ahmir Quest.

Love Thompson. Someone who is, who's become synonymous. with not just all things music, but I feel like all things Good times, which is a, is a great vibe. You know, when you walk through the streets, you go like, man, that person I associate with good times. - Good time, guy. - I, I feel like you made my time a. little bit better because I was in Washington, DC. that's where we are right now. And then I found out you are gonna be in Washington, DC. and I'd been dying to get you on the podcast. And then as you always do, you made things happen.

And I appreciate you for that. Genuinely. So a welcome to it, because we're gonna have. such a great conversation today. I, I, I know it will be. Yeah. You know, we're gonna be chatting about your new. book, right? Hip Hop is history. We're gonna be talking about your life, your, your journey with music. And man, what happened at the Grammys. behind the scenes buckle up. Oh boy. I'm excited. Welcome to the podcast. - Thank you. - You know, I, I picked up your book. and you jump into the book in maybe the most.

action packed way ever. Yeah. Lemme tell you something. So I'm, I'm obviously biased. because I was there when this was happening, but in the very. - You hosted Yeah, man. Oh God, yes. That night. Do you even know what was happening? - So I'll set the stage, I'll set the. stage for everybody listening. Yeah. So it's the Grammys, right? It is the 2023 Grammys. 2023 Grammys.

- Yeah. - And this is gonna be one. of the biggest years ever, because hip hop is turning 50. - And - There's gonna be a 50th hip hop celebration. that brings together almost every artist, or every performer, or every group from hip hop, from every generation onto one stage in one mega. blockbuster performance. You've never seen anything like this. - Right. - And the man who is tasked. with putting this together is the one. and only Amir Questlove Thompson.

And, you know, you talk about how you said yes. before you even thought about it. They said, Amir, you wanna do this? You said, yes. And just like, just like any amazing action scene in a. movie, we are completely in. because we are thrust into a world. where you realize very quickly that you, you don't, you don't just have to curate a performance. that encapsulates 50 years of hip hop into like a 10, 15 minute performance, which is impossible. - Yeah. I thought it was that whole show. I was like, getting ready for it.

- But then we realized you have to manage all of the egos. Please just, just break it down for me. - So one of my, one. of my biggest faults is often that I'm asked to do stuff. like months or years ahead of time. You know what I mean? So when someone's asking you. and, you know, three years before something, yeah. You'll like, yeah, that'll be exciting, right? I'll do it three years from now. So, you know, Jesse Collins. and Deanna Harmon asked me to, they have a way.

of pitching you that's like super exciting. Like, Amir, we think you should do, you know, we think you should curate the hiphop 50 thing. And I'm on like, the cartoon character, you know, like when someone turns somebody into a Turkey, like some salivating at the mouth and all that stuff. And instantly I got, I got to work. I figured, okay, I'm gonna tell the story of hip hop from, from the breakbeats of 1973 To the, you know, and I'm going through the, all the eras. And I was like, all right,

maybe they'll give me a half hour. So, all right, here's my presentation. And I said, it's 31 minutes. And they, the way they laughed at me, they're like, no, no, no, no, no. Yeah, just give us like 10 minutes. And then once I looked at the list. and realized that it was 10 minutes, I'm like, well, I'm gonna have to cut this list in half. Like, I realized instantly what they really signed me up. for, what they really wanted to say was, Hey, Amir, we would like you to be the bad cop.

- In - This situation. And then I realized, oh, I'm gonna have to talk to people. Not only that, just go through my, my phone scroll. Like, not even the luxury of them. You're the Grammys, you, you can call these people. No. Like, I gotta get up at 5:00 AM and have a Zoom with Dr. Dre. It was the most seven. intense weeks of my life of.

creatively cutting, whittling things down. to a 10 minute, you know? - Yeah. - Standard. Not to mention the amount of conversations I had to have. with people that are like, wait, you only you want me. to fly out there just to do a course? - Yeah. - Like, I'm only doing eight bars of a course. Hell no, I ain't doing that. You know? So, and then some people were really savvy. 'cause they've been in this situation before, and they'll say, like, who all gonna be there?

And then now I gotta be careful, like, well, there's da da, hello, - Hello. Because the thing is, a lot of people don't realize, some people don't wanna be in the same vicinity, on the same stage as other. 'cause it's like everyone's in hip hop, but not everyone in hip hop is. - Together. Right? So then who all going. to be there was the first thing. And then now it's like, well, if I really need you. to do this, then I gotta knock out these three people Damn. So that you'll show up. So there was a bunch of that. - Oh, man. - Then at one point there were several groups.

who weren't even speaking to each other. - Yeah. - Yo, I swear to God, when I see da, da, da da, yeah. Yo, he owed me $3,000 from 1998, son and da, da da da. Look, man, I, I'll give you the. 3000 bucks. Just keep, can you, oh, - Man. - So there was a bunch of that happening. - So I'll, I'll jump into this part. Yes. So night of, so I've seen the rehearsals, but now the, the thing that people don't realize is the. rehearsals for the Grammys are broken down. Right? So you rehearse when the people can rehearse.

And so it isn't always chronological, you know? So like, you know, if bad Bunny's opening the show, he might rehearse like, after a whole bunch of people. And, and you're really doing these pieces. and segments and you're doing them. And you know, you've got Ben Winston who's. executive producing the whole thing. And, and you know, you've got the director, Hamish, everyone's trying to put this together, but hiphop 50, everyone goes, we've never done anything like this. Everyone at the Grammy said, we have never. done anything like this. - Oh, I know. - And so on the nights, you know, everyone, everyone is really nervous. All I keep hearing in my ear is,

- So you had a earpiece? - Yeah, I had a earpiece. - I had a earpiece. So you might have. known what I've gone through. - Oh, I knew exactly what you were going through, but I didn't know what you. personally, were going through the book. The book lays it out, and it, it, it's, man, - So you remember the, the first act was it, was it Bad Bunny that started the show? - Yeah. So Bad Bunny started the show. - So you remember that whole elaborate thing you did in the. - Audience? Like, he's coming through the audience, they, they drumming, they banging bad Bunny's walking through. And then all of a sudden I hear we, we, we need Amir, we need, okay guys, we've got a bit of a pro. One of the odd we got, we got.

And I'm like, what, what is happening? They're like, all right, there's too. much noise on this channel. We have to switch you because something's gone wrong. Right. So now I'm like, what's going wrong? They're like, it's not about this, it's about hiphop 50. And as soon as they say that, I'm like, oh no. What has happened? What has happened? - What has happened? Tell, tell. Alright. So I thought my, my main fear the morning of. - Yeah. - Had nothing to do with the production. I was fine with rehearsals and everything. Yes. Like creatively, we were good. There was a new problem. And the new problem was because First Lady, Jill.

- Biden, Jill Biden was coming, - Was in the house. There's a more intense level of security detail. - Yeah. - Than normal. Which, you know, okay, I've been. to the White House a few times, whatever. I understand you're gonna have to go through several stages. of going through metal detectors and all that. You know, there's, there's a few of my in the world. of hip hop that are like, nah, son, never, like a never again thing.

A never again thing. Like they see metal detectors. and they're like, Nope, I'm good. So just to kind. of appease two of these particular figures, we had to go. through hell and high water just to make sure that was cool. Right. Which, once I realized the last person was finally in. the house, I had two good hours of, so I got changed, you know? Yeah. You were walking the red carpet. Right?

I went to the red carpet, you know, mess. with Taylor a little bit. You know, we joking around Yeah. Telling jokes. to Taylor Swift living the good life. Right. Everything was fine. And then the second they introduced Bad Bunny, suddenly I just started getting like, code red. Code Red light get backstage right now. And what I was told was that one. of our participants is on his way back. to his house in Calabasas, because maybe,

or maybe not a security person. was a little overzealous in. - Yeah. - Checking our friend's date. - Yeah. - He's instantly like, no. Like, it was just like, this person's not coming back. So what they don't realize is that. because we're on a very specific clock in terms. of camera coordination, all the visuals, you see. - Every cue at the Grammys, - The lights, the dancers,

- Every cue Right. Is so specific. And that person didn't drop out from the front. or the back. They dropped out from the. - Middle. Right. It's not like a thing. where I could just instantly like, Hey, we're cutting that song. Now. Nine key people who are not in contact. with each other have to be told. that we're gonna lose like four minutes. and 27 seconds to like six minutes and six seconds. We have to cut that part out. But the thing is, is a live show. and the show's happening already. So you gotta wait till commercials. and then run to the light guy.

and say, look, during the hip hop 54 minutes. and 27 seconds, six minutes. Then you gotta go to the camera person. Then you gotta go to the graphics person. Then you gotta go to the, to the choreographer. And then you gotta tell the dancers, Hey guys, I'm sorry, but da da da just dropped out. Yeah. So we won't be using you. Like, these people flew out, you know, told their family, - I'm gonna be on tv. Hey. Yeah. They've been. - Rehearsing. Right. So it took about 28 minutes. to just tell all those people. that this particular artist has dropped out.

Wow. And I thought, okay, we're good. And then part two happens, which is, oh man, some genius decided, and you know, I'm being sarcastic to present the album. of the year award. - Yes. - Before the presentation. - Yeah. Yeah. - And the thing is, is like, look, dog, this is, this is Kendrick Lamar's, like, you've awarded this guy the Pulitzer Prize, you know? Yeah. He's achieved things. Yeah. He's the favorites.

We already know this, you know, we already know this. - But does hip hop know it the same way? - Because I, - I feel. - Like he goes a part of hip hop. - Well, that's what I mean. I feel like, I feel like nobody in hip hop comes. to an award show thinking. that they're not gonna win the award. - Kendrick rightfully won that Grammy. And one of the nominees was like, I'm going home. - And that nominee was in the performance. I remember this happening in my ear. I got a call from Ben, he was like, Trev mate. He's like, we just lost another hip hop performer.

We're gonna try and figure it out. But for now, we, we might need to move things around. We just gotta, and he is like, and then it was panic again. - Yo. So it's, it's four minutes left. And we just, and we begged him as he's walking out, like, yo, can you please, can you, no, I'm going home. And so you got, we have four minutes, one. to make all the edits, but then I need somebody to end this thing. And I'll tell you what I did. I, I found a closet.

I said, I opened the closet and went in. They're like, Amir, that's not a room. Oh. And they're like, what are you doing in there? I need silence. And literally, I just sat there. for two minutes, dead silence. Like, all right, what am I gonna. - Do? I thought, I thought you were having a mental breakdown. 'cause I heard, I heard during the, the, the cost, they were like, things are going crazy. Things are going, things are going wild. And then someone said, Amir just went into like a, a broom closet and he won't come out. And I was like, well, I guess he finally cracked.

- No. So this is what I learned. - About the unstoppable force known as Quest. Love finally cracked. - People think that meditation is like cosmic prayer. Meditation is just, you gotta sit in silence. for a long time and brief, and the answer will come to you. Now, let two minutes go by. and you can clearly hear them outside the door. Like, yeah. Yeah. And I'm just like, I did that for two minutes,

two minutes left, Amir. And I said, I grabbed my phone. I was like, I can either text Jay-Z right now, or little Uzi Vert. And something told me like, Jay, Jay-Z's, he's not the king of known. Let me stop putting that out there. But he is the king of No, he's been known to be. - No, no, no. But he's the king of No, I, I think, I think in many ways, I think in many ways, Jay has understood the thing that you.

and I are still working on. He goes, thank you. But no. - Scarcity marketing. No. Which I would love to Oh, I, I would love that. Matter of fact, during the, during the whole zoom thing. of me having to pitch people, - Yeah. - Dr. Dre also taught me something. because, you know, he gave me a no. - Yeah. - And then I was like, all right, I'm ask him in two weeks and nudge. I'm like, come on pal. Can you, can you do this. for me and Dr. Dre in a way that I haven't seen since my father before? You know, like when you, when you cross that line.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And your parent wants to give you. that warning before all hell breaks loose. Dr. Dre said in a very serious way, which I now use on people. - Yeah. - He says, quest, let me tell you something. I really hate to say no twice. - Damn. - And the silence that ended, woo. I was like, woo, one.

Okay, I'll never ask you to do anything in life. Two, I gotta use that. Like, literally. But Jay said, no. And I, I was just like, all right, let me just. let me hit Uzi or someone close to him. So I I, I texted his team. and as I pressed send, your phone dies. - My phone went out. And so this is crazy. 'cause on the outside, we're. like, we don't know what's gonna happen. We don't know how it's gonna happen. It plays out. And I won't spoil all of it. 'cause I want people, I want people to read the, you gotta read the book, but I, on the outside, yo, lemme tell you this.

You nailed it though. You nailed it. You genuinely like, and I didn't, JayZ was, I didn't know I nailed it. And Jay-Z was part of it. Basically Jay-Z wrapped along. to every single, every single song. - Jay-Z wound up being the star of the show. Yeah. He did. Him as audience member. - Yeah. - Was better than him going to doing this. - Song. No. It, it was one of the greatest performances ever, ever, ever, ever, ever. We're gonna continue this conversation. right after this short break.

You know, there are a few people. who writes a book about a topic that they are. so inextricably linked to. You know, when you talk about the story of hip hop, in many ways, I feel like hip hop has had the same journey. that you have had as a human being. - Yeah. - And the two of you have been intertwined, you know, like Twin Souls. - Yeah. - Because hip hop today seems obvious. You know, I, I, I, I went to a Rangers game in New York, went to, someone invited me.

They're like, do you wanna come watch a hockey game? I, I went, and the thing. that struck me the most was in a stadium. that was 99.99% white. every time out they played hip hop. And so, I wanna know from your perspective, what was the first moment where you felt like hip hop. was going to maybe be a thing? 'cause you talk about being this child who was, I love how you even phrased it. You say you were eight years old. and you were hearing hip hop for the first time. You were washing the dishes with your sister.

- My sister and I were doing the dishes. And the intro of Rappers Delight comes on, and then we hear sheik's Good Times. So we're just like, oh, it's good times. And then we started hearing people talk rapping, and we just stopped doing the dishes. Like, wait, what is this? And you know, it was like a clock radio in the kitchen. So we turn it up and we look at it, and the longer this song went on, I, I thought like, oh,

I'll never hear this again in my life. So it was a decision to make, should I run. and get a tape recorder. and record what I'm hearing, which is exactly what I did. Like, I ran right to my room, got a tape recorder, put the tape recorder to the box, the radio, the, the clock radio, recorded it, and just sat there and listened. You know, Rapper's Delight was 15 minutes. Right. So I came in at like, maybe the three minute Part, and I wrote that entire song down. I was supposed to be in bed at like 8, 8 30,

you know, I was eight years old. I probably stayed up, I was allowed. to stay up till maybe nine 30. And I transcribed all the lyrics. And then I went to school the next day, me performing Rapper's Delight. for like all my fourth grade class members. Yeah. And that's, you know, of course, like adults were like, oh, never last. It's a fad. But when it really called to me. was in 1988. So there was like a, a, a fifties themed McDonald's called Big. Owls based on happy days. And I worked there, and this is the morning.

that it takes a Nation of Millions by Public Enemy came out, which if you know of their production style, it was a very, they wanted to sound like music's worst nightmare. So they would just pack in like 19 samples in one song. - Right. - Just sounded like they, they said. that they wanted their music to sound like. what crack feels like when you, 'cause it was the crack. - Hair. Oh, damn. I didn't know that. - Which is why all my chapters are based on the five year. - Yes, yes. You - Know?

- Yeah. - The, the first phase cocaine second phase, - Or Yeah. You, you have, you have one of the more interesting ways. of breaking hip hop down. Like where, where most people would talk about hip hop just. in a decade or most, you know, they would say, this was an era you broke hip hop down. by the drug that was pervasive at the time. - Yeah. - And you know, it's one of those things in, in standup, we always talk about it. We go, there's always that moment. where a comedian will get on stage. and they will say something so painfully obvious.

that you don't understand why you never saw it. But it is so genius because nobody could see it. because it was right in front of them. I feel like you revealed that with, with the way you broke hip hop down. - Like, well, well, when Chuck D said like, we wanted. to be music's worst of nightmare, because it was the crack era. He wanted his music to sound what crack felt like. - Right. - And then I realized, oh, so when the chronic came five years later, Dr. Dre slowed the music down. Yes. And that's the sound of weed. - Yep. - But then when the 97 Bad Boy era really started.

to kick in, that was the sexy, that's, that's the, the, the ecstasy era. And then when the south first started coming in, that's the, the scissor era. And then of course, with, with with Molly, opioids, fentanyl, like we're, we're going. through each phase every five years, our, the drug of choice. that we self-soothe on changes. That's how the music changes, - Right. - Like, this is the numbing era. This is the, this is the era of no feelings.

I, I don't want to feel numb. Damn. And some people are totally emo so you either 12000% emo. or no feelings, which is why everyone sounds numb. Like that's why mumble culture doesn't make sense. to my generation. Like I grew up in the crack era. - Right. Because it doesn't, it doesn't match up with. what you experienced or how you were living, how you were living that life. I, I genuinely love how you, how you find these threads. How you, how you connect them, how you, you know, in, in,

in the book you talk about your journey in hip hop, the roots journey in hip hop. And, and I love the connection that you have with Tariq, where it's like, you know, here we are seeing the foundations of Black Thought. and Quest love seeing them go from boys growing up, as you say, you know, from tweens to teens, from teens to young men. And then, and then you, then you're in hip hop. - See, our narrative was. that we were working class musicians, which really isn't sexy.

There's, there's nothing sexy about, Hey, we're a hardworking band. Because the, you know, the narrative, a lot. of the narrative, especially of the crack era, which is. 1987 to 1992, is the idea of winning. - Yeah. - Which is why the idea of Scarface, we don't love the movie Scarface. The idea of Scarface is what we love.

- Right. - If, if anything, I think like Jay's life sort. of mirrors that. Like I'm a buck the system. - Right. - And then I'm gonna evolve and become the system. Right. Right. That's pretty much. how like America was built like off of everyone. - Money. Yeah. The Kennedys. - Drug, the - Rockefellers, yeah. You name it, you name. - Corrupt money. And then somehow they became the right, - You become the establishment. The. - Establishment, the respectable. - Establishment - For us though, had Tariq.

and I like, again, even the idea, we were really the roots. of name only because like we went to high school. When you're in high school. and boys to men are boys to men in high school, and I don't mean like this before they had a record deal, but it was like The Beatles on Sullivan. Yeah. Like they would walk down the block. and girls ah, oh my God. And singing the girls in the back. And I'm like, oh, they're cheap, man. Like singing the girls. And like, we can't do that. And so we started a group, but it was a name only.

And it was only when I was coming back from my audition, I auditioned to go to the new school or Julliard. and coming back home, Tariq was with me for my audition. This Real Pretty Girl. and kind of a, a gray poupon commercial way says, excuse me. Are you the, are you the drummer that plays in. that Spike Lee Bucket commercial now? Yes. I was the drummer in the Boys been Motown Philly video, but because a very popular Spike Lee commercial for the Gap.

- Yeah. - Where it was like a bucket drummer. Yeah. You know, we see musicians busking all the time, but back in like 1991, it was weird. to see a guy playing drumsticks in, in a bucket. And she was so beautiful. And I said, no, I'm not. And she's like, oh, okay. And she sauntered off and left the train. and Tariq looked at me like, you damn.

And so cut to the next day, we're watching Soul Train. and that Spike Lee commercial comes on. - Yeah. - And literally it was like the, the Eureka, what I call the, the, the doc Brown. flex capacitor inspiration moment. Like, we just slow looked at each other. Like, yo, let's do that. And cut to two hours later, us going. to South Street busking. And you know, the summer of 1992 is kind of. where a year later we'll have a record deal.

and we will be the roots as you know it at least. Right. And the thing is, is that in our narrative, like we, we just never had a story of like, we won. And that's what hip hop was at the time. - Yeah. Like, - I won, I got more than you. Right. I've, you know, we were telling the truth. We weren't rich, we weren't, you know, - We Yep. Put your rollies in the sky waving side to side. - We didn't think to lie to people. - Yeah. - Or I don't think it's lying to people. I think it's sort of manifesting. what your future is. Yep. And then it comes,

- But Okay. But then what do you, what do you think, what do you think the secret to your staying power has. been as a group? - When people used to ask before, I, I would playfully joke. that, you know, the, the reason why the Roots existed. for 30 plus years is because two tour buses, and I used to say Slithering and Gryffindor, but I, I now realize something, which is. oftentimes artists have this obsession with perfection. - Yeah. - You hear Michael Jackson like, it must be perfect. Prince's world famous for rehears,

this band like 15 hours a day. Perfection. Perfection. That's not the key. The key is like, when you're trying to manage your destiny. or rehearse your destiny, it never works. Literally, all you have to do is left foot, right foot, left foot, right foot. And yeah, some of those times are trepidation. There've been moments where like, I don't like the way the audience looks like, ah, they don't know who we are. Like. - Yeah, yeah. - You know, and I feeling overthink.

it, but it's just show up. So I don't think, you know, people, well you guys are super talented, you know, you da da da. You, you have the ability to collaborate with whoever. Nah, we're, we're still, we just, we show up. And that's literally, I believe that's the true answer. I try to make science of it, of it all. Like, well, you know, 'cause we're responsible. or, you know, we're drug free or we're, you know, - No, just, - We just to count, show up. Ah, we just, you literally show up.

- But I, you, you know what I think it is, I, I think I would love to hear what what you think it is. as well is like, I think as artists, if we're honest about it, there is a great fear that comes. with doing what we are doing. because you are directly attached to the product. that you are creating. - It - Is a direct expression of who you are. Is that it, it's a direct moment. where you are exposing yourself. It's like another opportunity to be rejected. It's another opportunity for it to not go. Right. It's another opportunity. You know, like let's say the music itself can go on without you,

but when we talk about, let's say a live performance, every live performance is a new performance. Do you know what I mean? Yes. You step on stage. and if your timing is off, and if your drumming is off, and, and you know, and, and, and if, if, if Thor misses some lyrics. or if he messes something up, that crowd doesn't say, oh no, it's fine because the album is perfect. They go, that was terrible. But. - You know, you show me someone, I mean, no one actively plans on Let me ruin this moment.

- Yeah. - But I guarantee you, at least 90% of the time, it's someone that's in their head. I, I learned that worrying. is literally praying to be sabotaged. Woo. Man. I I, I hope I don't drop a drumstick When you worry, when you allow your brain to go to that place. - Yeah. To focus on the thing. - Shout out to Lauren Xander for.

and inventing the term man of fucking, that's when you start man of fucking, so it's, it's, I guarantee you, behind every moment of, of that level of sabotage or bad performance. That's because a person's mind's not clear. I don't like, before you go on stage, 'cause your, your level of entertainment is more intimate. because you have to talk to people. - Yeah. - Like, do you, at least I have. to sit in silence 15 minutes before I go on stage.

or DJ just so that I can ground myself. and No, get in that zone. - I'm the complete opposite. - Oh, you gotta be all hyped. Listen to music and. - I'm No, no, no, no, no. I, I just, so it's funny, everyone has a different routine. So Chris Rock, he has like, he almost has like a meditative zen quiet, everyone has to leave the room. - Right. - And then he. focuses and he goes in. But he's also, - Does he still have that prince? - I think - So. Does he have his prince? I think. - Yeah. But I think, I think he's also one.

of the most precise comedians. So I get why he needs that, you know, and then Kevin Hart, he's like, he's like a lot more loose. He'll just do the thing. He'll laugh with people. You know, Dave Chappelle's always playing music. That's one thing, like when you walk backstage, Dave Chappelle is playing music, and the music is setting the scene, setting the setting the vibe. For me, it's, it's people. I, I need my people backstage because really? Yeah. Because the thing I'm trying to do is, for me, I'm trying.

to bring you, Trevor, when I get on stage, I don't wanna become somebody else. I'm not trying to become somebody else. I'm trying to introduce you to the funniest version. of who I am. And that is like, when people know me, when people meet me. for the first time, a lot of people are disappointed. They're like, oh man, I thought you'd be a, I. thought you'd be a little more, I. I thought you'd speak more. I thought you'd be funny. I thought, but I'm like, no, I, most of the time I'm processing information. I'm observing the world. I'm quiet. - I was about to say, you're the first comedian I met that.

like, if, if, if any particular artist has a kind. of a duplicitous existence. where there is Dr. Jekyll and, and Hyde. Yeah. Comedians to me are that like. every comedian I know it's like life of the party on stage. - Yeah. - But the level of of darkness. - Yeah. That I. - Witness - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - Out of it. And then I realized like, oh, comedy is one. of the, one of the best.

distracting nothing to see here. Like, I don't want you to see the real me. Yep. So let me be funny as hell to, to throw off the smoke. - Yep. - But you, you actually, you might be the, the, the beginning of a new generation. that might be genuinely you. and adjusted, at least from outside looking in. - Yeah. No, I honestly, I try to be, I try to be as much. as I can because, 'cause I realized this, and maybe you, you can relate as a performer, what I realized was if I'm gonna spend my life doing. something, then I would like.

to spend my life doing something that'll help me be the best. version of me versus spending my life doing something. where I'm somebody else. And then I have to come to grips with the other person I am. whenever I come off stage. Do you know what I'm saying? - Yeah, I know. - So that's why what I'm trying. to do is I walk out onto the stage. and I'm trying my best for you as the audience to feel. what I'm like with my friends. And if you meet me in the streets, and if I'm at a restaurant that's me, that's like, that's just how I am.

Because then I don't have to turn it on. and I don't have to turn it off. And I don't have to think about who's, well, which Trevor's coming today, which Trevor's showing up. No, I, I I like that. - I used to worry about that. because I think for, at least for me, it was really, I'm in a, I'm in an even weirder space. because I know I have people that admire me. - Yeah. - But it's not, again, it's not the Beatles hard days night. Like, no GA pack. of girls aren't chasing me down in the alleyway.

And it's weird, like sometimes I'll walk down the block. and it's always like, you know, some guy's like, dog like, da da da. That album changed my life, man. Yeah. Back in college and thank you very much. And it's always, and I'll, I'll be high, like, wow, thanks. And then what always happens is whoever he's with, usually his date or whatever, I can hear maybe like five seconds. of the conversation as I walk away. And it's always the tune of like, you don't know Quest, love.

the Roots, you know the Roots, you know Jimmy Fallon, you know, yo you remember Will Smith's name, you know, you know Quest love. And that always just, but I always, I, I used to always, I always say. that I was the person that w would sort of self-evidence. reasons why I don't deserve stuff. - That's interesting. So that's it. You, you talk a little bit about that. I would, I was sort of Yeah, yeah, yeah. Figured a little bit about that in the book. - And I, that's gonna ground me.

- But actually, actually, I. actually would like to get into that. Like, you know, in the book you talk about almost, almost experiencing hiphop through an anti hiphop lens and, and not against hiphop, but rather the, the, the, the machismo in hiphop, the, the, the vibe. You know, for instance, even when we talk about weight, there's, there's a really fascinating part of the book. where you're talking about how, you know, biggie and Big Pun. and, and, and Fat Joe, and, and all of these artists, how they use their weight in a different way.

Rick Ross, you name it. And, and you very candidly share your story. and how like you are grappling. with your weight in a different way. And you, you don't seem to have the same command over it. And it's, it's not a, it's almost not a, a tool in your option. I. - Never thought this could be sexy. Yeah. For me, I realized. late, super late in my life that. we are going.

to self-soothe on something when we're not aligned. - Yeah. - Like, I now don't, I don't see like a, a cocaine addict as like, oh, you just chose drugs. I now think like, okay, you're self-soothing. because of another issue. - Right. - And there's different types. of addictions that we don't think about. Like, we don't think that Yes. There's, there's the greatest hits one, there's drugs and alcohol. - Yeah. - There's gambling, but then there's some other that we don't think about.

And for a lot of it, the amount of times that I've. like celebrator, like let's go to dinner. - Yeah, yeah. - Or you know, in the studio I'll just have, you know, my writer like 10 different types of cereals. Like, I didn't realize the amount of times. that I would just casually, I'm a foodie. I, I write books about food. Yeah. So, you know, I called it, my excuse was being a foodie, but then someone challenged me once during the pandemic, like, well, I dare you to, to, to not do that.

and we'll see if you're an addict. And literally like, I was. like Chris Rock in New Jackson City, like, I need Captain Crush. I need captain. And I didn't realize that. that was my drug, you know? How did you, I didn't realize that this was my shield. to keep people away from me. Oh, wow. I You don't, you don't realize that at the time. So, and it's, it's, it's an everyday struggle.

Like just to, just to, you know, I want. to be an example without being the, the the guy that you, like, you see on Instagram. And I don't wanna be the, I don't want. to be the hall monitor. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. You, you're not the. instructor type, you're the Yeah. - I want to lead by example. So, I mean, the fact that Chuck flavor iced tea. ll in a few seconds are making it to 60 is like that's a, a true reason for celebration.

But I also know. that those individuals have also reached a crossroads in. their lives where they have to, you know, I didn't know. that Chuck Dee you like, revealed to me that, you know, he, he does meditations and. - Yeah. - And, and do these things that I used to laugh at. I used to laugh at all. Yoga, meditating. - But then how do you, how did you find the balance? How did you, you know, one of the things I I, I notice about us as people is we, we risk. swinging wildly from one extreme to another.

So I'll meet people who, like you say, they self-soothe. They, whether it's food. or whether it's partying, or whether whatever it is. And then I meet them, and then now it's like they. self-soothe by being the complete opposite. And it's ex it's extreme. and nothing is a joke, brother, let me pray with you for a moment. Let me meditate with you in this moment. And I, I don't, everything is a devil. And Yeah. - You know, when people get a new toy. - Yeah. - Like, I, I, I had cousins come home for jail. Like, and you know, the, when you do a bid in jail, like you're, you're going to either find God or,

or you know, have my family's Muslim, you know, like prayer rug in the middle of the street. Like, all right, all right, here we go. Alright, give you a salon. All right. Now can we talk about the, you know, TV again, I was that person. And then I realized like, you, you gotta be the example instead of preaching the example. - I, I wanted to ask you that about music. Do you, do you, are you able to listen. to music without the, like, the rule? And, and I don't mean the rules of like. what music is supposed to be or not be,

but there are a few people I know of who can. break music down. So for instance, you have these. playlists that you'll send out to people. - Right? Right. - And one. of the reasons I love your playlists is. because I love discovering new music. So when you listen to music, I I, I'd love to know like, are you able to turn off your precision and your perfection? Or are there, are there moments where like, it, it bites at you? - I'm, I'm a stickler for detail.

- Okay. - And so the reputation of, of the roots being a band or whatever, is often the fact. that we can mirror mirror exactly what the song does. Chorus kind of in a, not in a karaoke way, but you know, the artist always says, wow, you guys sound just like the record. - Exactly. - Right. And so. - I'm, - I'm always, I'm always on the band about like, no, the, the thing goes like this on the record, you know, does the average layman person care?

Probably not. Am I tightly wound? Probably so, but someone has to be the captain. So that's usually where I'll get the, the ridicule. Like I know on the other roots thread without a mirror, that's where I know that, where the conversation's going. But the reason why, well, the, the main reason why I did these playlist, I think I started doing this way back.

Blue Ivy was born when like 2013, oh geez. 2013 I think. - Yeah. I'm terrible with yours. - Yeah. 20 13, 20 12, around that era. And so my gift to the Carters was like, look, and this is back when it was just iPods. I said, what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna fill up a whole bunch. of music with iPods. and in our crib, you know, just have this music playing. - Oh, that's beautiful. - And then, you know, 'cause I think if you can get kids.

before there's, and I don't mean like, I'm not the guy. and the guy that wants you to listen to the music I listen. to, so that, - But it's just being exposed to, it's like languages. - I think it expands your mind. So I initially started making iPods for the Carters, but then Jay will be like, nah, we kept them things through ourselves. Like, like, and then the other thing was kind. of my occasional eye roll at o Obama's.

summer playlist. Like, okay, all right, who's really feeding you this music? All right, let me let man, nobody gives him credit. Come on, let me, let me, and I'll hit him up. I'm like, yo dog. Like, okay, who's your trainers doing this? Like your interns? So what wound up happening was, initially First Lady Michelle had me. make her a bunch of playlists. 'cause she was doing like a, a book tour Yeah. And wanted cool music. to play when she would do her speeches, whatever.

And then, then it just started expanding. So it's, to me, I'm the guy that's willing to, you know, do the needle on Haystack for the perfect song. All those songs that I choose are songs that like, that. give me goosebumps. Like no song is on there by accident. Make. - A moment. Okay. Not, not to put you on the spot, but if, if you were to choose five, just five songs where you go. - See - No, no, no. Just like, and it, it might be like, it might even be the top of mind that I'm looking for.

I know. I'm you on the spot. - I'm gonna songs I'm gonna tell you something. - From Five Genres where you go, you are on an island, you're trapped, this is it. Five songs for the rest of the time. You can't even make music five songs. - When off the clock. I don't listen to music more than I listen to like. ambient noises. - Oh, that is fascinating. - So right now, like if you were to say like, what is my favorite song for me, fork tuning,

fork tuning music is my all time. It's not even music anymore. The sounds of like, that. to me is like, 'cause I need that. My life is so chaotic. But I mean, if, if you just want me to name like, tangible songs. or tangible music, I would choose.

Okay. If, if you're a fan of Brian Wilson, of The Beach Boys. and you know the story of how he struggled for 40 years to, to make the follow up to the Pet Sounds album. He finally completed this album, I think in 2009, 2010 or whatever. Like finally it's, it's in complete stage. It's called Smile. And there's a song called Wind Chimes. that is just my, my relaxing place.

- So that's the relaxing one. I like this. - That's the relaxing one. Number two, bill Withers has a version. of Grandma's hands on live from Carnegie Hall. - Okay. - 1972. 73. That has a long monologue at the beginning of it. And when I was a kid, my parents. and grandparents used to always make me. perform the monologue. Oh wow. Bill, bill Bill's telling the story of, of.

what it was like growing up in West Virginia. and his grandmom's house and going to church. And it was like the comedian thing, like white churches and black churches. - Yeah, yeah, - Yeah. Black churches do this. - Yeah. - White churches do this. And I used to do that routine when I was like three or four. So let's say the live version of Grandma's Hands. - Okay. Live version. What does that do feeling wise for you? - It's probably the, the rost childhood memory I have. - With like, okay. Okay. So it's like, it's warm. - Yeah. - It's like a, - It's that warm - Feeling. All right. Okay.

- There's a song called, there Comes a Time. by the Tony Williams group. Tony Williams was the drummer for Miles Davis. He went solo and did a song called, there Comes a Time, there Comes a Time was the, the First Night. of the Roots, as you know it, when we saw the commercial. and went on South Street to Busk. - Yeah. - It was such a victory night that at the end. of the night we took our $120 and we went to Wawa.

and to get a hoagie and some lemonade. And we just sat in the car like feeling accomplished, thinking like, so we gonna do this next week, or Yeah, we gonna do this next week. We might make $200. And this avant garde DJ had played Tony Williams. There comes the time. We just thought it was the. oddest thing we ever heard. And it turns out we don't know it at the time, but that DJ will wind up being like the roots of Brain Trust.

and Longtime Manager until we passed away. Leukemia Richard Nichols. So we will meet that person in about three months, not knowing that he was the, the DJ. for Jazz 90 or Temple. Damn. That's beautiful. So that's the, that's the. - Weird one. So we got calm. That's weird one. Yeah. We got calm, we got homely, we got weird. What's like a hype? Is there like a hype song for. - My generation? When Rebel Without a Pause came out by Public Enemy, the song actually encapsulates the, the angst.

that teenage me feels inside that can't express it. - Right, right. - This, this loud siren. noise that keeps going. Like it's every parent's nightmare. But for me it's like, yeah, this is how I feel inside. You know? So Rebel Without a Pause by Public Enemy. - Enemy. I like that. Okay. That's like. catharsis. I like that. - Yeah. - All right. And then. - Final song, the last song I'll say is a rather normal. song, but there's a moment where. in 1983, prince releases a remix version.

of Little Red Corvette. Now are you familiar with the, the phrase. it's called code switching? - Yeah. - So code switching. For those that don't know, oftentimes if. you come from one side of town, you might often have. to chameleon yourself to adjust to where you're going. Switching to that office voice. Right? Yeah. So if I'm backing my old neighborhood at.

home, good to see you again buddy. Right, exactly. At home I know to lower my voice. Yo, what's up man? How you doing? Yo, I'll take out shrimp fried rice. And, huh? Well, oh, we, that's what's up. Yo, thanks. Thanks. But when I'm at office, hello there. How are you? Like it's a level of code switching Prince, what makes Prince such a genius is often. when he releases singles, he knew. what he would have to do in order.

to gain the audience that he wanted. Oh, interesting. Which is why songs like Raspberry Beret exists, which is why I like nice songs like Take Me With You Exist. There's, there's a level of of wink winked that he's doing. to a white audience that he's trying to grab. But he's also telling his black. audience, I know where I came from. You know what I mean? So he'll re he'll often remix the song. and ize it in very subtle. ways that, that you don't notice it. I.

- Like that. Okay. - So what happens is, 12-year-old me is thinking. that he's hearing the album version of Little Rick Corvette, but then suddenly in the, in the three minute period, the baseline changes. And I'm like, wait, this, this feels different. This is not the am fm radio rock song. that little Red Corvette was suddenly it's, it's black as shit. So what I'll later learn is that oftentimes for,

for a pop radio, you'll wanna stick to major chords. - Okay. - Because it feels safe and it feels inviting. Minor chords. The black keys are often dark. And that that's sort of up our alley. You know, it's funkier, it has edge. to it, there's mystery to it. There's, there's bite to it. And the moment I realize. that you can turn any song into the major version, which is safer, or the minor version, which is edgier,

that totally transformed me. So for me, hearing Little Rick Corvette, the, the, the, the remix dance version just. that made Prince God in my mind, - That unlocked something in you, - In a way that no other artist could, could do. that Don't. - Go anywhere. 'cause we got more What now after this,

You know, I'll tell you this, Amir, like. there are a few things that I have been to. or experienced where there is more law. that is spread about them than your legendary game nights. Yo people's, the amount of, of law and fiction. and myth about your game nights is out of this world. People ask me questions. It's almost like your game night has become Illuminati. Because people will say to me, they'll be like, Trevor, I saw, I saw you made it into one.

of Questlove's game nights. Right? Pray to tell what happens in there. I heard, I heard that there are, there are people. and you're like, it is a. game night. It's just a game night. - Someone once joked to me, they were like, you know, I can't believe you hit jackpot doing one. of the most wholesome, it is the most wholesome events. It's so wholesome ever. I'm embarrassed. The reason why I don't talk about it, the reason why I'm sort of like fight club with it isn't. because we're doing this Debas Studio 54 thing.

It's, it's Studio 54 levels of fun. - Yes. - But it's so. - Yes. - Damn square. And I think I happen to know that. that's the specific reason why people come over. 'cause the thing is like, okay, we'll invite about maybe we'll, we'll try to aim. for 60 people and we'll carefully curate right things. And I gotta go through, you know, some people have security details. Yeah. Some people have, you've seen the amount. of people that have been here. But the thing is, is that it's, it's such an unpretentious.

normal moment. I'll give you an example. Alright. So the first time. that Taylor Swift came. - Yeah. - It was literally to zero fanfare. Like she just walked in. Yeah. And I didn't even know, I didn't even know she was there until 10 minutes in. And I was like, oh, okay. She did show up. That's what's up. She sits down at Bum be's table. - Right. - And plays Uno. And that's the thing, like what I realized,

the reason why I threw game night is. because I don't, I work so much. I don't prioritize joy man and fun things. And oh man, I'll mon I'll, I'll figure out a way. to monetize my joy. Like DJing used to be my joy. It's still my joy. But now, - But now it's also your job, - But it's a job. It's an occupation. Yeah. Drumming is a. job and an occupation. Journaling, what is a job and an occupation. But these used to be my, my passions.

So with game night, at least there is a four. to five hour period in which. 60 strangers are amongst each other, just playing around. But then the next night I'll get the text. and it'll just be like, yo, man, like, dude, thank you so much. Like, yeah, no, it's, I gotta talk to JJ Abrams about. what I thought, da da da da da. And this designer's talking to that writer. And it's not even an elitist thing 'cause I have no,

- No, no. Half of the room is just friends of Questlove. who nobody knows from anything. or anywhere that, that's just, you know. - Right. - That was, that was the most fun I had was. sitting at the table with, with your boy. I don't, I don't even know where he's from. - But it also, but it also tells me a lot about people. The way Michael say hit me like, yo dog, man. I was like, yo, you, you have fun. 'cause this whole thing was like, he couldn't, Michael j was one of 'em cats. that couldn't quite realize like, wait, so we're going,

we're just coming to play games. - Yeah. - And I'm like, yeah, we even had like one particular artist who's like security. detail had to come and sweep the place. And they asked us like, so you, where's your medic at? And I was like, medic. I was like, yeah, you know, medic in case something happens. I was like, I said, dog, that ain't that type of party. Like, they were like, wait, you guys are really here to, and the way they laughed, - We eat cereal. - You're here and we play - Uno. - To play games. - Yeah. - And I was like, yeah. And they looked at each. other like, wait, that's all y'all doing?

I was like, yeah, we're playing games. And they couldn't believe it. And then they witnessed it and was like, oh, this was fun. But literally at the end of the night I hit him. and I was like, so what'd you think? And he was just like, man, he's like, Trevor kept, now I know Chay is the type of guy. that will pull another rule out. of his hat without establishing. - Completely. Completely. Right. So let's get into this. I like how will be like, your reputation is. that you're a rule follower. Here's, here's, but so am I. No, but here's the thing that's more specific for me.

- Okay. - I'm competitive. Okay. We start with this. I'm competitive and the thing I never understand is this, if we cannot agree on the rules of a game, then. how can we agree on who has won or lost said game. - Right? - The thing that gets me is I'll be play, let's just agree on the rules. I'll be playing Uno with somebody. I'll be playing crazy eight with somebody. I'll be playing whatever card game it is. I'll be playing a game with somebody. and then they'll go, oh no, that, that doesn't do that. So it's like, okay, wait, let me just look. Official rules, - Right?

- This is what I'm saying, official rules of Uno is. that if somebody puts down a take two, you cannot add to that. Now I'm saying I play the game where you can as well, but let's, yo man, I can play. and one I can play NBAI can play like, you know what I mean? Three, three V three. I can, I can play every style of game. See. - A lot of my black guests. All right? So I gotten a lot. of pushback from my black guests. - Because we add, we stack - Into, right? So I, I, there's, there's levels of stacking. and I don't, I love stacking, but let's agree that we're stacking I I get it.

Yes, you're right. And. - So let's agree people. That's all I'm saying. Because sometimes. what happens is it goes halfway around the table. and then someone else goes, oh no, but we don't, you don't stack. And the, and then everyone at the table is like, oh, okay. No, not okay. - Yeah. - So, okay, so here's. what happened on that one in particular. So we weren't playing one game. So what I love about your game nights is you, you'll get. to a table, you'll find a game. Yeah. You don't even know what game you're gonna play. So you get to the table, there's a whole. bunch of games laid out. And on this occasion there was a Bobby version.

of Uno. Okay. - Yes. - Which I've never played. before. I don't think anyone's played before. - Tell us every type of. - Game. Yeah. There was like a special type of Bobby Uno. So, so now there were new rules. - Yes. - Okay. So now everyone's at the table going, what do we do? I now, I'm not the kind of person. who will pontificate on the possibilities. of playing when I can just pull. out the instructions, the rule books. Right. If we don't know how to play the game, let's read the instruction. So I go, let me read the rules. Michael Che goes, of course you're gonna read the rules.

Then I'm like, what do you mean? Of course I'm, do you not wish to know how to play the game? He's like, I'm sure we can figure it out. I'm like, we cannot figure it out. I don't know what a Margo Robbie car does. I don't know if you do. He's like, we can figure it out. No, Michael ch We cannot figure it out. And my thing is, Michael Chase's so cool. He's gonna be like, he's gonna ooze cool, but he's one of those people. who confidently walk down the wrong road. Right. Just like I'm the kind of person to be like, let's pull out a map and see if we're headed in the right. - Direction. You, you and I are the same. Yes. Right. We're born in the same, - So I read the rules. and it turns out like the America Ferrera card.

and the Margo Robbie card are very different. Exactly. And there's a lot of things. You got the Issa ra card has a different vibe. Yeah. You, you know what I mean? The Kate McKinnon card does. a completely different thing. So these are all things that I was trying to explain. to the group so we could make the game fun. 'cause if the rules don't exist, then the game isn't Michael. - But yeah, you a reputation as. - Yo man - As the hall monitor. - Man, he, he, even at the table, he was roasting me, he roast, you know what I, I had every trauma from school come back.

I knew it where I felt like a nerd. who had like actually done the reading or actually done. - Teachers sp teachers that That was him. Exactly. That was him. Michael was like, I went to therapy. It was good for someone to have it instead of me. because I'm always the teacher. You're usually that guy. So I was like, whew. All right. Trevor took the, the heat off me. - This is like, I'm here for game night. I'm not here for socializing night, I'm here for game night. The socializing is secondary to that experience. So I'm here predominantly for the game. - I've realized. So Mo, moving forward, we decided that.

each table should have their own captain. and that captain will establish what the house. - Rules are now. That is what I'm talking about. - So next time, Trevor, you'll have your own table. It's your rules. - I don't even need to be a captain. I just need the captain to know. what the rules of the game are. - No, you're a captain dog. Like, - Eh, I'll take it. I love it, man. Thank you so much. Thank you for being here now. 'cause honestly, this is wow. Thank you.

What now with Trevor Noah is produced. by Spotify Studios in partnership with day zero productions. and full well 73. The show is executive produced by Trevor Noah, Ben Winston, son Yame, and Jody Agan. Our senior producer is Jess Hackle, marina Henke. and Claire Slaughter are our producers. Music mixing and mastering by Hannahs Brown. Thank you so much for listening. Join me next Thursday. for another episode of What now?