Prime Minister Mia Mottley: Climate, Immigration, and the Power of Small Nations

I've I've always noticed it, but I' i've. never I've never thought to myself. It It seems so obvious now, but I've. never thought to myself, "Oh, yeah. You. You can't tell Rihanna's story without. talking about Barbados.". >> Exactly. >> The music, the way she sees the world, the way she interacts with the world, the fact that she's still, >> you know, a citizen of Barbados. Like, all of these things inform how she goes. >> And that she still has a Beijing accent. >> That's true. Yeah. >> So, if I said that phrase to her, she'd.

know what it means. >> Of course. >> So, wait, how do I say it? You You. >> still have a. >> No, the fair. The fair. How do you say. the phrase? >> Oh, dare. >> D fair. >> Oh, you got to treat people fairly. >> But you said dying fair. >> D fair. >> D fair. I'm going to I'm going to work. >> But you have a good Beijing accent. already. >> I'm I'm working with yours. Dying fair. I'm going to learn it. I'm just going to. say to people dying fair and I'm I'm. going to get there. I'm going to. Rihanna. You didn't invite me to your. party. Dy and fair. >> Exactly. >> Yeah. Now we're on. Now we're on. >> [music].

>> This is What now with Trevor Noah. [music]. >> Prime Minister Mia Mley, welcome to the. podcast. >> Thank you very much, Trevor. I was. thinking of every possible question I. could ask you because you you're one of. the most brilliant thinkers I know. You're also one of the most original. human beings I've ever met. And as I was.

going through everything I could think. of, I went there's one pressing question. I've always wondered and I've always. wanted to ask you and that is. does it ever bother you that most people. think Rihanna's the prime minister. [laughter] of your country? I wish it. was. Then I'd be able to spend more time. on the beach. [laughter]. No, Rihanna is phenomenal. I mean, look, Rihanna has made Barbados known in.

places and with people that would not. otherwise have known it. I mean, we like. to think that everybody knows about. Barbados. That's what happens when you. come from a small nation. >> I know what it's like. But the truth is. that she really has extended the. boundaries for us and um she has defined. excellence and and I want to speak to it. because people don't appreciate that I. genuinely feel that she is the. businesswoman and artist that she is. because of how she was raised.

>> Huh. See. >> Barbus is a place Barbus is a place that. social justice matters. If you go to a. Beijing, the first thing they tell, man, you can't unfair that body. That ain't. fair. Everything is about fairness, justice. And Rihanna, when she decided to go into. business said, "Look, I'm going to do a. makeup company. >> because guess what? Everybody's been. doing makeup for certain colors and. certain hues. I'm going to do it for. everybody.

>> because everybody matters. Everybody. must be seen. I keep talking about. seeing, hearing, and feeling people.". She did it. Then she wasn't satisfied. with that. She said, "I'm going to do a. lingerie company." And then you look at. the shows and the lingerie is for every. shape and size. Those who are fit, those. who have been maimed, those who are. disfigured, for everybody. And that. sense of inclusion, that sense of social. justice that was instilled in her from. birth, that was reinforced in her in. school is what she's living. So when.

people ask why is she successful? because she's authentic, cuz she's real, cuz she's living out what really. matters. And that sense of fairness and. inclusion, the world buys into with her. >> I think that's beautiful. >> Yeah, man. >> I've I've always noticed it, but I' i've. never I've never thought to myself, it it seems so obvious now, but I've. never thought to myself, "Oh, yeah. You. You can't tell Rihanna's story without. talking about Barbados.". >> Exactly. the music, the way she sees the.

world, the way she interacts with the. world, the fact that she's still, you. know, a citizen of Barbados. Like, all. of these things inform how she goes. >> And that she still has a Beijing accent. >> That's true. >> Yeah. >> So, if I said that phrase to her, she'd. know what it means. >> Of course. >> So, wait, [laughter] how do I say it? You. >> You still have a. >> No, the fair. The fair. How do you say. the phrase? >> Oh, dare. >> D fair. >> Oh, you got to treat people fairly. >> But you said dying fair. >> D fair. >> D fair. I'm going to I'm going to work. >> But you have a good Beijing accent. already. I'm I'm working with yours. Dy. [laughter] and fair. I'm going to learn.

it. I'm just going to say to people die. and fair. And I'm I'm going to get. there. I'm Rihanna. You didn't invite me. to your party. Dy and fair. >> Exactly. >> Yeah. Now we're on. [laughter] Now we're. on. Um. >> until next time. You see when you invite. me then I can eventually say we is we. >> We is we. >> We is we. I like this. We. >> most powerful. Three words. >> That's the most powerful. Okay. We is we. dying fair. I I I almost feel like that's that's a. perfect place to to start a conversation. because. if we think of Rihanna as a as a concept.

and as an idea, you have a single human. who has had an outsized impact on the. world. >> They came from a place that many would. have considered insignificant. They. started in a place that many people. would have considered uh unremarkable. And yet there's no denying that music, fashion, beauty has now been shaped by. this person. >> Absolutely. >> I feel like your journey and the journey. of Barbados has been very similar. >> Mhm. >> Truth is [snorts] that the journey of. Barbados before has been there for good.

and bad reasons. And let's start with. the bad. >> Yeah. >> Um Barbados was settled. In fact, this. is 400 years this year that the British. first landed. But the history was. written that they were the first. Although we now know that people were. probably there who came from um Europe, but the story that nobody told was the. Amarindians who lived there for. centuries and who at the time when the. British came there was evidence of. settlements and life, but nobody had. been living on the island at the time.

>> I start there really to carry you to the. fact that the modern story of Barbados. then is shaped by the British conquests. and they started a parliament in 1639. It's the third oldest in the. Commonwealth. Um, and they passed a law. which really is something that we are. not proud of at all. And it became the. structure for modern racism and. institutional racism as we know. And it.

was the bedrock for slavery. It was the. 1661 slave code passed by the Barbados. Parliament. It was followed in Jamaica. It was followed in South Carolina. It. was followed in Georgia. It was followed. in antique. Almost all of the countries. in the Americas used that 1661 slave. code which denied the humanity of black. people as the basis for their thing. The. British treated Barbados as the jewel in. the crown. It was the producer of sugar. Um it was for them the earner of great.

wealth. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> And it was also the place by which they. understood how to control and denigrate. black people. um as slaves. So that we. feel as modern independent Barbadians. that we have a duty to pay forward and. that duty to pay forward is as a result. of that history. Now there were other. things that happened at the time because. of how important the colony was to the. British. So after.

King Charles took back over from. Cromwell, ironically King Charles, he he. gave some of the planters in Barbados. land in the Carolinas. And therefore there is a huge impact of. Beeons and Bean slaves moving into the. Carolinas and the linkages between. Charleston and Spittown in the north of. Barbados go back um 37075. years. Fascinating. >> Yeah. and and and there is also a belief. that we need to do more research with.

the Gula people and to really see the. linkages between the Carolas and. Barbados. Um in addition prior to that. when the royalists um tried to fight. against Cromwell. >> they had the charter of Barbados in 1651. which they say 125 years before. independence the declaration of. independence in the USA. >> really spoke to a lot of the same things. in terms of no taxation without.

representation and a lot of the same. things that came to be [snorts]. discussed here so that you see Barbados. popping. in a superersized way through. >> throughout history. >> and in a sense therefore I don't try to. claim it for Rihanna or myself or others. today as the country because it really. has always had that tradition. Yesterday. on my social media, a picture came up of. the father of independence Errol Barrow. and his wife meeting President Lyndon. Johnson here in DC. And the story goes.

at that time that President Johnson said. to this prime minister of a newly. independent country um the Organization. of American States, the US will pay your. Jews to join. And Mr. Barrow said, "Um, sir, with all due respect, where I come. from, if you can't afford the Jews, you. don't join the club." I give you that. story as well as in his first speech to. the United Nations, he declared that we. would be friends of all satellites of.

none. So there's a strong sense of. dignity, a strong sense of we have a. responsibility to do things and to. >> to give. um especially because of what we went. through and that does not mean that we. are more powerful than we are because at. the end of the day size still does. matter but on things of thought. leadership and dignity count us. >> because you you I mean when you talk.

size. I think it is important to. understand the size of Barbados. What's. the current population? >> It's probably about 270,000. >> Okay. Yeah, that was 300,000 was just. under 300. >> Just under 300,000. >> We actually regrettably have declined. and we're right now going through a. whole conversation about building back. up the population. >> Is that because people have been. leaving? >> Part of it is that, but part of it is. that we've done a damn good job at. family planning. Family planning has. been strong in the country from the. 1950s. You know, this is this is one of.

the things that like feels like one of. the greatest conundrums that the world. is facing, >> right? Is actually I was having a. conversation with my mom about this. >> Okay. >> So, my mom was asking me um what I think. about marriage, when I'm going to get. married, you know, all all of these. questions, but not pressing but. pressing. [laughter]. >> And. do as moms do. Yeah. As moms do. And. then I I said to her, one of the things. I've been pondering is how much of our.

um advancement. >> has limited the natural progression of. what it is to be human because now you. have to like choose to make a family. >> Back in the day, you know, if we think. about this is only in this in this. century, >> people didn't think that you just did. you just did and you couldn't, you know, I mean, obviously there's like old, you. know, I've seen like ancient. prophylactics and things, but for the. most part, people just had kids because. they had kids. >> Like, how do you how do you begin to. think about this idea? You know, we we.

see people saying, "Oh, populations are. declining here, populations are. declining there." Is it the threat that. that some people say it is to nations? >> Well, it is. I mean, look, in the. Caribbean, um, the first thing I did. when we won government in 2018 was to. create a national population commission. because having served as minister of. education, >> Yeah. >> many years ago, I realized just from the. numbers going into schools that we had a. problem. I had in those days I had about. 42 4,300 kids every year. >> Yeah. When I came into office it in 2018 it.

was down to about 2500. 2600 2700 something like that at the. beginning and now the ones going in. infants a are like 2200 so that you can. clearly see the sharp decline in 30. years and if I go to other countries in. the region let me give you context. Guyana that is the fastest growing. country in the world. Ghana is Guyana is. Yeah. Yeah. because of the oil.

>> Okay. Okay. Got it. >> And but Guyana's population. in spite of it being the same size as. the United Kingdom. United Kingdom is 65. million. Guyana is struggling to be a. million. Um let's go to Bleise. Bleise. is the same size as Israel. Israel is 8. million. Bleise is 400 and something. thousand. Um, Surinam is just larger. than the Netherlands. The Netherlands is. 17 million. Surinam is 580,000.

>> And if I take Barbados, um, Singapore. grew itself literally by reclamation of. land. Um, I think they've gone up by 30. or 40%. >> Um, they more or less a little bigger. than Barbados. They're 5 million. I'm. struggling to be at 300,000. So you have. this. predicament that other than Haiti, almost every country in the Caribbean. community is underpopulated. Um, including Jamaica, Trinidad, Tobago,

all of us. >> Do you think it's it's because people. are. able to choose to have kids or is it. because people are choosing to have. fewer kids as their standard of living. goes up? >> A combination of reason. How does it. work? >> I think it's a combination of reason. I. think some of it was immigration. Mhm. >> I think some of it is more people. choosing not to have children or not. having children for whatever reasons. >> And then what do you say to them if it. if that's the you know as a as a leader. cuz now you have the predicament and. it's a confusing one. You need more. people. Do you tell people to have.

people or do you. >> Well, I'd like them to but the reality. is that I still need people before they. do it the pleasurable way. [laughter]. >> So while while they have pleasure in. doing it, we're going to need that. I. still need skills now. And when you. start to see the shortage of skills, then you begin to realize this is a real. real constraint. >> on stability. and growth. I would love for you to help us get an. insight into thinking about the world.

like a leader should versus how we think. about the world as the passive. participants of what's happening. >> What what you just said, we often read. about like everyone reads about it. they. go, "Oh, I read I was reading that. there's not enough workers coming into. this country. There's not enough people. You know, Japan is experiencing a. decline. Germany, etc., etc.". >> When you're with world leaders or when. you're working on these problems, is it. is there is there a light that is. shining in one direction? Is it. immigration? Is it is it something that.

we're not thinking about? Like where do. where are the possible solutions? How do. you think I fear that the conversation. about immigration and migration is. rooted in racism. >> rather than rooted in the needs of a. country? >> I think that people are fearful of. becoming a minority in your own country. And that's natural. You can't think. that. But at the same time, without the. influx of people, you're not going to be. able to stabilize or get the growth that. you need as a country. And one of the.

problems is that in the world we have. worked out how to move money. Nobody. worries about how to move money. globally. But as soon as you start. talking about moving people, everybody gets nervous. And in 20 was it. December 2018 I think at the OEC. organization of African Caribbean and. Pacific States in Nairobi, I made the. point and I continue to make it that we. need a proper deal for migrants. And.

this notion of people having to drown. just because they want a better life. when countries elsewhere actually need. them and can provide opportunity and. dignity to them. Something is. fundamentally wrong and regrettably. that's one of the things I can say we. unfairing people. >> We definitely are. >> We are unfairing people and we are. seeing people die unnecessarily when we. can have a structured program. And part. of it comes back then to the sustainable. development goals, the SGS,

>> because most people don't want to leave. their own countries. They leave because. there's a reason. They have to. >> they're either running from something or. running to something. >> Yeah. >> And if we could get a basic agreement. globally that there's certain things. that we must provide people, basic. education, which means from pre- primary. to secondary. I mean I'd love to say postsecary and. tertiary but let's. >> just starting up a base level everyone.

in the world. >> must have a basic education that allows. them to learn at any stage of their life. again. >> that basic healthcare. >> for the the very basic things. >> right. >> um the opportunity to play football or. cricket or whatever sport you like or. road tennis which I hear people talk. about pickle ball I want you to come to. Barbados and help me promote road tennis. >> cuz road tennis can play in this. >> wait Great. What's it called? >> Road tennis. >> Road tennis. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> And what what's road tennis?

>> The guys at home made these rackets out. of plywood. >> Okay. >> The net is effectively about what 6 9 in. off the ground. >> So it's like knee height. >> So if you're not fit, you can't play it. So even I got a little trouble. sometimes. [laughter]. And then a tape ball and you can play. it. It's like the size of a table tennis. board, but it's played on the on the. road. >> On the road. And that's it. So it's this. feels like a sport for inner city um.

areas and ghettos [snorts]. >> where there's no cars. >> Yeah. Well, even when there's cars, >> how are we playing road tennis? >> So the you stop, you pull up the the the. net, [laughter] the car passes and you. move. Swear to God. >> When you come to B, you'll see. >> I'm actually going to come and see, you. know. So it's funny in South Africa we. used to I mean most places in the world. I you know friends of mine who grew up. in like Harlem have the same stories. that I have growing up in South Africa. in the townships where you would just. close the road you would play the game.

and then when a car needed to come. through it would come through but I. think as a if I'm pitching this as like. an Olympic sport [laughter] it's going. to be tough to pitch this idea that. we're cruising closing but okay we'll. get it I'll come to some for the. Olympics we leave out the cars but. >> I think that's what'll make it. interesting if you want to get viewers. you leave the cars. >> [laughter]. >> That's a real gold medal. >> We could do that, too. >> If you if you finish the match, you get. a medal. Um, yeah. Like I I love that. you bring up the idea of thinking of new. ways to to think cuz.

>> that's that's probably what inspires me. most about you is whenever I see you. speak and and whenever I've even I've. been lucky enough to have like two. conversations, I think with you, >> every time I've left our conversation. thinking, "Oh, wow. [clears throat]. Nothing is fixed. There's there's new. ideas in and around everything, you. know, like immigration. >> We all think of immigration as this. fixed idea. It was people going. somewhere and then that was it. Do you. think there's ever a world where, like. you say, with money, do you think. there's ever a world where we find a way.

for people to go work and then go back. to their countries? >> We need to look, people used to do that. in a more structured way, but because. the world hasn't created, governments. haven't created the opportunities. Look, we we create movement. We create. treaties that allow for movement of. money. We create opportunities for. people to invest. Um, but we just don't. see people and feel as important enough. for us to create a virtual community. where you need these skills. I mean,

look, in a very small way, you've had. the farm labor program out of the out of. Canada, the Caribbean, people have gone. to for years. They go, they work, they. come back. That's a structured thing the. money. >> and that do you see that that benefits? Yeah, it works well because it helps the. farmers in Canada and it helps the. persons at home who don't have work at. the time. Right. Right. >> Who have an opportunity. >> so get get the labor where the labor's. needed and then get the money where the. money's needed and so you're just. bridging the gap basically. >> And technology actually allows us to do.

it in a very seamless way now. So that. to my mind, if we just rolled up our. sleeves a little bit and gave it a. little effort, we could do a lot more. Let's take Africa. Every time I go to. Africa, the amount of young men you see. on the roads just waiting for work, working for opportunities, and I'm. saying, but there are other parts of the. world that are in serious need of. people. And I'm not talking basic menial. labor. I'm talking skills at all levels.

And I genuinely feel that if we can. create the right framework for the. movement of skills and labor that the. world would be a far better place than. it is today. When you share these uh ideas with other. world leaders, do they see the possibility or or like. I've I've always wondered when you're. having these conversations internally, are world leaders being pushed by the. people or are they the ones pushing the. people? Which which which way does it.

really go? >> You have the ability to push them. And. [snorts] I don't mean that faciciously. World leaders are politicians. Most of them who operate in democracies. rely on people's votes. And the people. have the ability to shape the work of. their leaders as well as leaders have. the ability to nudge the population. Um, I genuinely feel that there are. things that we are going to have to do.

at a popular level globally in order to. be able to see the status quo of power. move. >> In what way? >> Why would they change what they're doing. if it's working for them? >> Okay. Yeah. >> You understand? And what we're asking in. fact is a change in the power. relationships and the status quo of how. people are treated when they move beyond. borders. And that is going to require a. little more effort. Um, look at the conversations that are. happening across North America, across.

Europe. Um, look at them. And regrettably in some. other countries, it's it's becoming. power for the course. But could the USA. be the USA if it was not for migrants? It's immigrant labor. It's the dream of. the fundamental story. >> That's right. That anybody can come and. be whoever they want to be in this. country. That was the seed of its. greatness. And then let's look at. biology. I didn't do much biology in. school, but any instrument, any organism. that closes in and that doesn't open up.

dies. Atrifies. So I really really feel. that the problem that we're facing is. the browning of the world. >> The browning of the world. >> Ralph Gonzalez who is prime minister of. St. Vincent and the Grenardines says it. all the time and he's absolutely. correct. It's the browning of the world. So that you see when you let too many. people come in and people start to mix. in a sense everybody's beginning to get. the same color and the same [laughter]. type of thing and that frightens people.

>> because love knows no boundaries does. it. >> That's true. That's true. Um I mean I'm. sitting here so. >> but I I you know what I I sometimes. think it is. I think us seeing the browning of the. world as one of the factors is is. completely correct. But I often wonder if this is not a. natural byproduct of people experiencing. a standard of living that declines over. time and then they start to point.

somewhere. >> Yeah. >> Do you know because because like if you. look at Europe itself, >> some of the biggest wars that have ever. been fought only involved white people. >> Mhm. you know, they were just fighting. with themselves about themselves and and. so whenever I I I read these stories. throughout history, I go, "Oh, wow. It. it doesn't matter. Brown is almost the. easy thing for somebody to pick on now.". But when you get rid of that, someone. will find something else and somebody. will find something else. And and so I I. I almost. >> It's a combination. >> Um I think that there is definite.

>> um a definite contribution with respect. to inequity. Yeah. And the fact that. people who could have believed that this. was the type of life that they could. aspire to now realize that that is now. beyond them. I mean in this country you. have it with the industrialization. that left. >> and therefore um strong credible. dignified jobs were all of a sudden. taken from people and those jobs. sustained families. Um but let us not.

forget as well that there is still. regrettably. um an eye for differences in the world. >> Oh definitely. >> And and and I think the combination of. all of those things has helped [snorts]. >> to create that sense of almost despair. >> and the despair has led then to anger. and the anger has led to shutting out. people and focusing in. Tell me when in history any civilization. has conquered or survived by shutting in.

[clears throat] any living organiz. organism. >> survives by shutting in doesn't work and. regrettably we have to get worse before. we get better before we realize that it. is a crisis and that the survival of all. depends on the well-being and welfare of. all as happened in co. >> yeah that's the those are the only times. when people start to think differently. about the world that they're in. >> Yep. >> We'll be right back after this.

[music]. Let's look at Barbados in isolation cuz. I think it it's it's it's [music]. the same problem that many countries are. going to face. thinking about their. populations, how they replenish them, how they keep skills, how they how they. keep growing sustainably. >> What do you have you seen any countries. that have gotten it right? And have you. seen you know an example where you go.

that is the way that I would hope we can. bring people in, we can sustainably. >> Canada has probably done a better job. than most of the countries. I think that. they found a way of recognizing that. they need to bring in people, but at the. same time, they treat them as Canadians. The US had it right before, too. I mean, for whatever reason, the US is in a. schism as it relates to migration. And. I'm not passing judgment on them. I'm. just noticing that,

>> you know, you do grow and you do succeed. if you create those opportunities. I. think you were absolutely correct in. also making the point that in those. parts of the country where people were. denied or didn't have the ability to. move at the same level and to increase. their quality of life at the same level, they then assume that it's because of a. foreigner. It's because of an outsider. You're seeing it in France. You're. seeing it in. >> um other places. But remember when. Angela Merkel brought in a million. people. >> right. >> from uh.

>> Syria when it was. >> Syria. >> and it was like a shot of adrenaline. because she understood that Germany was. facing the worst possible future a. declining and aging population. The. irony is that's what we're facing in. most Caribbean countries. The ECLA um agency predicts that in. Barbados that one in every two people. could be over the age of 65 by the year. 2050. >> One in every two. >> That's crazy. >> Oh, that's not a great ratio.

>> Exactly. And in the case of Jamaica and. Trinidad, 39 40% somewhere around there. >> So, this is a real issue that we have to. solve now cuz we're 25 years away from. that point in time. Um at the same time the Caribbean is a. microcosm of almost most of the. >> largest civilizations of the world. It. really is not all but most of them. So. you have African, you have European, you. have Asian in every sense um Indian, Chinese, um you have Middle Eastern,

>> uh and you have the traditional Indians, most of whom were taken out. But in St. Vincent and in Bise, you still have the. Gaffuna. In Dominica, you have the. Carabs. So you still have a few. remaining. And I like to believe that the Caribbean. because of our history has a story to. tell to the rest of the world and an. example to share with the rest of the. world. We've not been perfect by any. stretch of the imagination. But for the.

most part we have been able to bring. about development to our people in the. post. colonial environment that sees people. that feels people that hears people that. recognizes that look okay we need to. provide education shelter housing etc. >> We haven't done it for all yet but we're. on that pathway. Not everybody's gotten. on the train yet but a lot have. And. when you start to compare it to other. countries and other regions in the. world, you begin to see that the.

difficulty has come in that in many. instances, small states have had rules. imposed on them that don't make any. sense. I mean, for years, for the last. 30 years, we've been arguing to the WTO. that we need special and differential. treatment as small states and that my. percentage share of global trade in. goods is 0.0000%. And my percentage share of global trade.

in services is 0.001%. So we have no capacity to distort global. trade. But. if you treat me as if I am equal to a. large nation, then you will kill me. before I can even start. You destroy. anything that I can do to keep my. population alive in terms of. manufacturing or in terms of whatever. >> Yeah. So that there is the old. Aristotlean principle, equality for.

equals and proportionality for unequals. And if we were simply to use that and to. recognize that you can't have the same. oneizefits-all prescription, you can't. do it in a family, >> far less a country, far less a global. community. >> And if we can get that, so many things. that we've been trying to solve will. find themselves in place. And part of. the difficulty is is that the new world. post 1945. was still remade in an imperial order.

So that all the talk about sovereignty. and independent countries, you're. independent so long as you do as I say, not even as I do. Because when they told. us don't do quantitative easing and. don't print money, the truth is when. COVID hit, what did the developed world. do? Oh, they. >> G7 printed and printed and printed and. quantitative easing and you know so we. have to find a way of letting some air, some oxygen, some transparency, some.

light [snorts] and to begin to see that. the one sizefits-all rule will not work. and that you have to be able to give a. little elbow room, not a lot, but a. little elbow room for us to do the. things that we need to do to keep our. people alive to keep our people. prospering to not cause our people to. want to get into the things that you. complain about globally in terms of. migration or crime or all of the other. things. >> Yeah. I've always been.

I've always been fascinated by by the. like sometimes what I think is very. short-term thinking from some of the. bigger nations. >> in that they'll often think about mass. migration, but they don't seem to wonder. why people are leaving the place that. they're in. I I I the first part of me. goes like maybe it's just an arrogance. >> I give you an example. >> Yeah. >> They do things that literally shoot. themselves in the foot sometimes. In in. what way? >> In 2006 and 7 there was a big debate.

about the international criminal court. and the fact that the ICC that US. heads of state and army milit military. people did not want to be subject to. prosecution, >> right? >> And they went around the world trying to. get countries to agree that they should. be exempted. And we in the Caribbean said, "Hey, we. hear you, but one, it don't make sense. because this is intended for all. people.".

>> Y. >> but two, even if it wasn't, this is the. idea of the former prime minister of. Trindad and Tobago, Enr Robinson. And as. a matter of solidarity as well as. principle, we can't do it. They said, "Well, if you don't do it, we're going. to withdraw all military aid from your. countries.". >> Wow. I said, "Okay, that's not a wise. thing to do, but I mean, that's not a a. year, 18 months and. >> eventually said we're going to do it. anyhow. >> What happens? Nature Abhour is a vacuum. China who never had any relationship.

with any of the militaries in the region. really then stepped in and developed a. relationship and provided training and. equipment and things thereafter. Does that make sense to a country that. is so frightened for China? See, when you're saying that, I wish. more people understood, especially. Western nations, you know, quote. unquote, I wish they understood how many. of the problems they're experiencing.

are created in a cycle. >> You know, so. friends and I were talking the other. day. You can't talk about 9/11 without. talking about Osama bin Laden. You can't. talk about it without talking about al. Qaeda. You can't talk, but then you. can't talk about it without talking. about the CIA, which you then can't talk. about without talking about the US and. what it was trying to do about. communism. And now many of those people. go, "Oh, we did the wrong thing." But. the effects are felt so many years. later. And and what you're saying is the. same. If you watch the news in America, if you watch the news in the UK, let's. say the BBC, they'll very quickly say,

"China's expanding. Uh, China, we've. seen China here and China's in Africa. and China's in the Caribbean. China's. doing this, China's." But I I don't. think I've seen any news reports that. say, well, the US opened the door for. China and the US reneged. >> The North Atlantic countries have not. necessarily treated to the issue of. development in the postc colonial era as. well as they could have. We talk about. official um development assistance being. 0.7% of GDP. Most countries don't even.

observe that. But for. >> as in that's as in that's a portion that. they're supposed to contribute to. developing nations. Exactly. >> Yeah. >> But countries like my own have been. said, "Oh, you're middle income. You. don't need money from us." So we. effectively don't get any aid from the. USA or from Britain or whatever other. than a part of a regional study or a. regional thing that is done. And that's. one of the things that we've been. arguing and I'll come to that in a bit. because that's at the core of a lot of.

the development issues that we are asked. to be able to access capital from the. official financial institutions, international financial institutions on. the basis of historic GDP per capita. >> Mhm. >> Which really doesn't I tell people that. is like taking my blood pressure two. years ago to determine if I'm going to. have a stroke today. is completely. irrelevant. [laughter] You understand? >> It's like creating energy. >> So that what matters because in 72 hours.

a hurricane can hit me. >> Yeah. >> And I can have wipeout risk. Now a. hurricane can hit in Florida, you don't. have wipeout risk. A hurricane hits in. the Bahamas or Dominica, it's gone. >> Yeah. >> And instead of dealing with qualitative. issues in education, you're now dealing. with basic access to schools again. So. we make the point that. the North Atlantic countries for. whatever reason had the Caribbean and a.

lot of the other small island developing. states in the Pacific etc. in a certain. prism. This is how they view you. This. is how they're going to relate to you. And China and India and others come. along and say oh these are some of your. real development needs. >> Oh you need a gymnasium or you need help. in building a port. need help in doing. roads. >> Um, we're going to lend you the money at. 3%. Or 2%. Or 4%. Who else is lending you that money?

Nobody. So, I think that. remember what I said. We want to be. friends of all, satellites of none. So, we're not looking to be anybody's pawn, but at the same time, we're not looking. to be disadvantaged or unfaired because. you don't believe I should talk to my. neighbor. um when in truth and fact the. neighbors done me nothing. >> And then secondly, when I look at your. circumstances, you have greater exposure. with your treasuries to them than I. have. The Chinese hold 4% of my debt. [laughter].

It can't do me. It can do me less than a. hurricane can do me. There are others. who hold a far greater percentage of my. debt and the Chinese hold far greater. percentages of debt in the developed. world in the G7 countries. >> It it almost feels like a contradiction. then in some ways. It's almost like some. of the larger countries are basically. restricting smaller countries from. engaging in the best way or even in in. an autonomous way in the way that they. feel is best for them. >> You see, you get it. So why do you get. it? Because you've been exposed now to. the facts. Tell me where in large.

developed countries are you exposing. your population to the facts or is it. purely an opiate diet that you give them. with respect to entertainment and. dulling down the senses and no real. discussion. You look at the news at. night and it's the same five stories. being done on every channel when you. look at this country or Britain [snorts]. or wherever and the. Jewish rabbi who I really truly.

respected Jonathan Saxs chief rabbi in. London wrote a series of books and I'd. encourage you to read them all but one. is the dignity of difference which way. he talks about moving from narrow from. broadcasting to narrow casting. And of course we all know it. I saw your. last podcast on on the impact of these. devices on children. >> Yeah. >> And if you ask me one of the things that. worries me at night, this is it. >> And I think left up to me how how can we.

came back into office to find that. everybody had these things in schools. But we need to have a national and an. international conversation as to how do. we balance people's access to a world. that is not there and is in the hands of. a child whose brain and whose maturity. is not yet fully developed. You're going. to tell them they can't smoke. Remember. with children you were told you can't. drink coffee when you're young. It's not. good for young children.

>> But yet you give them this most powerful. weapon. >> Yeah. It shapes them. It molds them. It. influences them. Yeah. >> And at the same time, I've been arguing. that you need to expose our kids to risk. because what do children want? To play. adults. They start at young and they can. get away with it and they go and take. their mother's makeup and their mother's. shoes and [laughter] whatever and they. play in house. By the time they become. teenagers, it gets a little more. dangerous. They want to smoke. They want. to ride a bike. They want to have sex. They want to do other things. we now got.

us. And I'm saying to them, we teach. children how to cross the road. as little kids safely. How do we prepare them to manage other. risk as they get older? And therefore, the educational transformation that we. need is not to give people knowledge. because facts for the most part although. you have to be discerning are found. there in technology. What we need are. the values and attitudes, the skills,

the commitment to excellence in whatever. you do, and empathy because you have to. care about people. If not, you're going. to be in trouble. And you have to do the. best that you can do in everything that. you do, however little, however small, however large. And you have to show them how they. develop and mature, which is what we. don't talk enough about, the social and. emotional learning targets. What do you. expect a child to say or do? >> Yeah. >> At 7, at 10, at 12, at 14,

>> at 16, when the hormones start to get in. the way, how do you deal with that? Recognizing that relationships with. parents are not always the easiest. during that period of time. So, how do. you create a pressure cooker type thing. where the steam can be taken off and the. child just doesn't explode into some. kind of, >> you know, awful situation? So these are. the things that matter. So I'm seeing. more and more a world that is not.

allowing us to have the conversations. sufficiently that we need to have. And. regrettably um it means then at the. level of international policy where we. were talking about an international. diplomacy and power relationships that. some of the things that ought to make. common sense are ignored and then we. only get to it when it becomes a crisis, you know. So there's so many things that. we can do better. And let's take. climate,

okay? They say that there's no climate. crisis. >> Mhm. The reality is that whether we say. it or not, the temperatures and the. climate is not changing. There's a clear difference of opinion. between those now who say there's no. crisis and those who are frightened as. hell that this is the greatest. existential crisis that the planet will. face. >> So, how do you bridge this moment in. time?

You've got to find a common love. language. What do I mean? Methane. is 80 times more dangerous than carbon. We talk about carbon all the time, but. carbon stays in the atmosphere for. hundreds of years. Methane stays in the. atmosphere for 12 to 15 years, but it's 80 times more dangerous. Methane is generated.

from gas leaks. and the flaring of gas. It's generated. from how we raise our livestock and farm. rice. >> It's generated from landfills. If we were simply to fix the pipes that. are leaking. and stop flaring the gas, because when. you flare gas, you can't make money from. it. Hm. If you were to capture the gas. and if you were to fix the leaks, what.

would happen to the oil and gas. companies? They make more money. That's. their love language. What would happen. to the planet? It would stop the. destruction of it. That's our love. language. And the scientists actually. tell me that if we get this right in the. next 15 years, we can actually reverse. the temperature by half a degree. So. what does that also do for the oil and. gas companies? Oil and gas companies are. not the villains [snorts]. the emissions are. So if they can invest.

at scale for decarbonizing technology, then they can continue to have a longer. route to run. and the controlling of the methane gives. them the time. to do the research. >> to get President Trump did with the. COVID vaccines. Remember the warp warp. operation warp speed. Yeah, we've talked. about that. need operation warp speed. for methane and and that's what I mean.

I'd love to tell President Trump that. >> because he gets what he wants. >> and the world gets what it needs. How. how is this miss I mean you saying this. to me now. >> I've said it a few times publicly. because I think the world. >> it's logical. It's what you're saying to. me doesn't I'm I'm trying to think of it. in my head and I'm going I don't. understand why this the it's common. sense. So what's falling where is it is. it companies that are trying to cut I've. been talking to President Mron I've been. talking to a number of other leaders and.

I'm saying look we need to have a. face-to-face meeting with the oil and. gas CEOs because I actually believe that. there is a win-win for us all. They have. remember Sting song I hope the Russians. love their children too. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Uh I believe that the oil and gas. companies love their grandchildren. H. And unless they have a plan to live on. Mars that they haven't shared with us. yet, they got to get this act right on. Earth.

I feel that if we can reach a legal. agreement just as we did with the. Montreal protocols to cover um the I. think it's called HFC's. I keep fixing. it up in my head, but the air. conditioners and everything. Yes. >> Right. >> And we've been successful. in doing that. If we took the same approach to methane. and had a global methane agreement. Now. the Europeans might get a little antsy. on the livestock farming, but there are.

ways to deal with that as well. That. will not stop the farmers from making. money. The farmers in the Asia who do. the rice, they may also get a little. nervous. But I know that President Banga. at the World Bank has already been. working on how we can do things in terms. of changing how we farm there. We we. seem to. >> this thing is so simple, Trevor. >> Yeah. But we we seem. >> It boggles the mind. >> We seem to it's it is simple but it's. >> complex because you can't get people to. change. >> Yeah. But we we come up with these.

solutions or rather we find solutions. when it's war. >> Mhm. >> I I've never seen a single war and I've. never watched a documentary. I've never. read a book about any major war where. people said we can't. >> Yep. >> Do you get what I'm saying? The atom. bomb is an impossible idea. It is truly. impossible. But nobody said we can't. They said find more scientists. They. said find more brilliant people. They. said find more pieces of land. They said. they made it happen. You know, there's a. a trillion dollar jet that America never.

got right. >> When I'm being facitious, I say if we. can find a way to cure men's baldness, we can find a way. >> to save the planet. [laughter]. >> But but is that the problem? Maybe is. that the problem? Is that is it is it. that we haven't found priority? >> Is Yeah. Isn't that Is it that maybe we. haven't found the right lever? You know, because when you talk to most people. about climate change, I don't think I'm being mean when I say. most people don't necessarily care care. about it or don't feel like they can. afford to care about on a daily basis. because it doesn't seem like the thing.

that impacts them now. >> So, so let me. >> like we're so bad at seeing slow. problems, you know what I mean? >> Yeah. So, but let me tell you, it's. happening faster than we think though. >> Yeah. >> Look at California this year. Look at. the fires. I mean it was apocalyptic. >> right? >> Look at the fact that from as far back. as probably 2 three years ago insurance. companies start started to say we're no. longer insuring for. >> fire risk. Then let's look at southeastern south.

southwestern US, sorry. Florida, >> Texas, Louisiana, >> all of those um states, especially in. Florida, you're getting insurance. companies and in the northern Caribbean. starting to say, "Hey, I don't know if I. want to insure you for flood. I don't. know if I want to insure you for. hurricanes." Now what and I've been. saying for a while what becomes. uninsurable. eventually becomes uninvestable whether. it's a country a sector or a region.

the financial system globally is. premised upon insurance in many ways you. go to a bank you want to borrow money. for a car insure the car you want to. borrow money for a house a mortgage. insure the house you want to borrow. money for a company these are covenants. that we require and we acquire you to. cover insurance blah blah blah. >> I mean it goes back to shipping days. like back you know. Yeah. So when. uninsurable becomes uninvestable.

then the world is going to listen. because the financial markets and the. financial companies and the finance. people of the world are going to say hey. what's happening here now Barbados. we were not the first but we are the. largest with respect to the issuance of. commercial paper debt with natural. disaster clauses. Um, I could make this. joke here because you know you you would. to get it. We call it natural disaster.

clauses and then the World Bank and the. British and everybody came and gave it. new names just as they gave us new names. when they brought us across the. Atlantic. [laughter] But hey, we we're. accustomed to that. So, but these. natural disaster clauses simply say this. and understand the internal logic. If I. get hit by a hurricane tomorrow of a. certain category, not any and everyone, >> your first thing you're going to worry. about if you lend me money, are they. going to pay? >> Can they pay me back? >> Can they pay me back? >> And you price that risk.

>> Yeah. >> into the cost of the paper that you're. charging me. So I come along and say, "Hey, you don't have to worry. I'm going. to give you a legal commitment that if. you allow me not to pay for two years, well, I get my body strong again, my. country strong again, >> because I have a lot of uninsured. people, which you know about. >> So, the state has to step in, >> right? >> If you give me that 2-year break, I'm.

going to back it up at the end of the. payments. You remain whole. I'm not even. asking you to take a haircut, which. really and truly you should, but I'm not. asking you for the haircut. And you. don't have to worry about whether I'm. going to default or not. You're just. giving me the ability to fix my stuff. and move again. So, let me use the word. hard because if we get hit, >> these clauses now. >> allow me. >> to get just under 20% of GDP.

released over a 2-year period for me to. fix up. >> for you to get back to the place where. you can help people. Exactly. >> Yeah. Becomes a more s sustainable model. essentially. Like I'm I'm listening to. you saying this and and I'm going I. can't help but draw parallels between. what's broken in many societies. >> Forget on a geopolitical level. I think. about the United States. >> You look at what's happening in France. right now and then we can go to African.

countries, South Africa, South Africa. being one of them. >> The amount of people who are one car. accident away from completely being. destitute. the amount of people who are. one medical procedure away from being. completely wiped out. the amount of. people who will have one moment where. >> forbearance is called. >> and but what's what's what's. mind-blowing to me what's mind-blowing. is if these I always wonder why can't. these companies who are in charge of. this why can't these companies see that.

the person being given an opportunity to. get back to whole. >> becomes better for them long term. >> then by squeezing them when they have. the very little that's left I. >> I gave a speech in Algeria last week th. Thursday Friday. where I quoted Derek Walcott who is. noble um laurate for literature from St. Lucia and there's a poem that he has. that talks about the reassembling of the.

broken vase and that the love that it. takes to reassemble. makes it stronger. >> Oh yeah, it's similar to the Japanese. technique. I'll send you the quotation. >> um when when we finish here. >> And that's exactly the point that you're. making and that the country becomes. stronger, the individual becomes. stronger. >> And what does it really require? An. understanding of. the circumstances or maybe the practice.

of the golden rule. Do unto others as. you would have them do unto you. >> But do you think that's become broken. because corporations have an outsized. power in all of these conversations? Like like if you if you're think if if. you're a CEO. >> and you're only working towards that. quarterly quarterly report, >> you don't see or hear anything else. >> Yeah. And and all they're thinking about. is I need to make sure that this number. in the next 3 months is bigger than the. next number is bigger than the next. number is bigger than the And so what. that then means is you can't think long. term. You can't think in a beautiful. soft curve. You can't think in a way.

that's sustainable. I feel. >> which brings us back to the conversation. about narrow casting and echo chambers. It brings us back to there's some kids. in the region that I met recently and. their parents said I make my child watch. something that is an hour long every day. because they are so consumed. >> by quick. >> with one minute and 2 minute that their. capacity. >> Yeah. >> to sustain attention and to think and to.

reason is compromised. >> Yeah. I think I think it's I think it's. more than that as well. I I I I I always. find myself bristling when people say no. one has an attention span and I go. that's not true. I I really don't. believe it. >> And the reason I don't believe it is. because somebody can stay on TikTok for. 4 hours so they do have an attention. span. I think. >> rotate it. >> Yeah. I think what they've done is we've. created a system. We've monetized a. world. >> where keeping you addicted to the drip. drip.

>> means that you don't realize the. long-term reward of exploring, understanding, misunderstanding, rereading, digging deeper, and then. getting to the end of something where. you go, "Oh, wow. I. >> there was a moment where I knew nothing. about this. >> There's another moment where I thought, then I lost, then I and at the end of. it, what a beautiful expanse of. information I now have.". >> Yeah. And and it's a discipline that. people had before. But I think that we need to get people. to understand that you need to be able.

to discern and to explain and to. understand. You don't have to agree with. everything you read, but you need to. understand what it is you're doing and. why you disagree. Don't press anything. We've got more. what now after [music] this. [music]. You talk a lot about. global debts. >> and I think you've had one of the most.

outsized influences in helping people. understand why so many countries in the. world are stuck in the positions that. they're stuck in. You know, I I grew up. in a country where people until this day. will say, "Oh, well, I mean, look at. South Africa. They haven't, you know, and look at and then I've seen them say. that about African countries." Well, you. know, Africa, they haven't done well for. themselves. I mean, you can blame the. European, but Africa hasn't done well. for itself. And you talk about this this. >> global hypocrisy and inequity in a way.

that I think most people have never. heard. And it made me wonder like what do you. think what is one practice that you. think is the most globally, you know, indefensible way in how larger companies. countries are are treating smaller. countries? You were right in saying larger. companies too because I think it's a. form of of of bullying and a failure to. put yourself in the position of the. others and to craft rules that work for.

you but not for everybody. So let's look. at everybody knows the story of Greece. with their economy. Greece and Ghana, and I'm not talking. about Ghana in the last postco years, but just before COVID, Greece and Ghana. had basically the same credit rating, but Greece was accessing money in the. international capital markets at a. fraction of what Ghana would access it. Part of it has to do with the safe.

assets and part of it has to do with a. lot of underlying assumptions that were. made as you created these institutions. And if I want to get it as basic as I. can, why should Europe determine who's. the head of the IMF and why should the. USA determine who's the head of the. World Bank? >> Doesn't South Africa have somebody who. can head the World Bank? >> Doesn't um India have somebody who can. head the IMF. So a lot of these. assumptions were made and the rules were. crafted in the image of a few, not of.

the many. And as a result, we've been. paying the price of those rules that. have not been touched, have not been. deconstructed and reconstructed. And we have been paying the price as. well that just doesn't matter enough, [snorts] you know. Okay, South Africa is. having problems. Okay, that's a. conversation piece. Okay, maybe there's. too much corruption in Africa. What's. happening in Europe and North America?

The same corruption out there. It takes. two hands to clap. more often than not, it's a European or a North American. investor in Africa that's driving the. corruption and it takes two hands to. clap. This makes no noise. >> So, I think that bringing these things. to light. matters in terms of those who have a. conscience immediately say, "You're. right. That's true." And those who don't. have a conscience will find it more. difficult to sustain the error of their. ways. You've said things that have made.

me think of how we convince people. differently because. I remember one day you said and you. you'll you'll correct me because I might. paraphrase you incorrectly. You. essentially said. >> we'll listen to people fighting about. like migration and who's going where and. who's going we never think to ourselves. how can we pay somebody to stay in their. country. >> and I I I saw you saying this. Yeah, I. saw you say and some people were like oh. no you should never how could you say. such a thing? because I realized there's. this there's this there's this idea. around immigration that has been. romanticized, you know, and I think.

maybe because I've I'm an immigrant and. because I've been an immigrant in. another country, I think sometimes. people don't realize that for the most. part, no, I'm not saying for everyone, but for the most part, people do not. wish to leave their home. >> They don't, >> you know what I mean? Some people want. to explore. Some people, but for the. most part, people want to stay home. >> What chases them out is a war. >> Yep. >> What pushes them out is a famine. What. pulls them somewhere is an opportunity. that they don't have where they're from. But if they had those things in the.

place that they were. >> Yeah. >> You find that that would stay their home. forever. And when you said that, I. remember thinking this is wild that a. world leader would say that pay people. to stay in their country. >> Yeah. Look, and and it may not be as. crude as that. It may be in terms of the. development package and the investment. >> But it broke through when you said that, I think. >> But that's the point. And and the thing. is to get people's attention to start to. think differently. Yes. >> Because what I find is that there are. too many assumptions that we accept as.

rigid positions rather than and and the. thing I say to my government to to my. ministers all the time to the country. all the time. Let us deconstruct and. reconstruct what is the public policy. we're trying to serve? What is the. public mischief we need to avoid? Has. technology made it more possible or. easier for us to do things in a way that. we weren't doing it before? >> And if so, who are the winners and who. are the losers? Because if you don't see.

people, you're doing nothing. There will. always be somebody who will suffer as a. result of the change in the status quo. And there will always be somebody. potentially who can benefit. But. sometimes you need to go in just like a. a a sculptor and you need to just smooth. it out because even though you're going. in one direction, you may find that. that's an outlier that you really need. to bring back and if not down the line. it'll lead to XY Z. How do you how do. you maintain your hope being such a. small nation? Because.

I always think to myself, Barbados to me is is the perfect analogy. for for what many humans feel in life. >> They feel small. >> They feel insignificant. They feel like. an afterthought. >> Mhm. >> And yet every day you'll go out and. you'll meet with other world leaders who. will give you the time. M. >> you will speak at the United Nations. knowing full well that many of the. nations that you're speaking to see you. as an insignificant part of the.

conversations that they're having. So. >> I guess the it's two questions really. One is [snorts]. >> where did that hope come from and what. keeps it going? And and the second part. of it is. how have you found or what have you. found enables you to make an outsized. impact relative to where you're coming. from? Let me say that hope is human. Without hope, you lose your humanity. Ultimately, I feel so strongly. You have.

to believe that the next minute, the. next moment, the next month, the next. year can in fact be better even if. you're going through the hardest of. times. Um, at the same time, I've always relied. on. the fact that God and time. and circumstances can be allies. God for. faith. Time because we have a saying in. Barbadish, why catch you, impass you. >> Why catch you impass? Catch you impass.

you. So, I like that. >> Just because you haven't it hasn't. caught you yet, it hasn't passed you. either. >> Oh, I like that. And in terms of. circumstances, things happen and we don't this may be. part of the divine if you're a person of. faith or things just happen if you don't. have that. >> And. why is my voice on climate resonating. more today? because of the floods in Pakistan, because of countries in Africa that are.

going through famine and locusts, because of wildfires in Greece and. California. Those are the circumstances. >> Time because. 20, 30 years ago when Al Gore was. telling us about an inconvenient truth, >> nobody wanted to listen. [laughter]. So. circumstances and time and faith have a. way of conspiring to create that. opportunity even regardless of how small. you are. And as you learn in the stories.

with David and Goliath, regardless of. how large you are, >> do you think the world. >> and and and the fact that let me give. you a small example because South Africa. plays cricket. >> and Nelson Mandela made the point that. when he was in prison. learning about the conquest of the West. Indies cricketers. beating the British, beating the. Australians in the 1960s. >> Yeah. that this gave him such a sense of.

warmth and hope and you understand and. that's what it does for ordinary people. So Barbados, as small as we are, before. Rihanna, there was Sigarfield Soas, Gary. Soas, the greatest cricketer of all. time. You go to Australia, they'll tell. you who's the greatest cricketer of all. time. Allrounder, Gary Soas. You go to. England, Gary Soas. You go to India, Gary Soas. He's still living. He is our. first living national hero. Rihanna. joined him a few years ago.

And for me, you know what's special? Both of them grew up within a mile of. Bridgetown in humble circumstances. >> and both of them came to be the greatest. of all in the field that they have been. practicing in. >> So smallness and poverty and. circumstances of birth or geography do. not define us and that must always. always always be kept evermost in our.

minds and as we raise our children. Nobody's better than us and we're not. better than anybody, but we have the. capacity to be the best that we can be. and sometimes our best will actually be. better than everyone else. >> Talk to me about the um Bridgetown. Initiative. >> Yeah. So, that's just a way of us being. able to encapsulate a lot of what we've. been discussing. >> Yeah. But, but it's so it's so. fascinating. Please just just talk us. through it because I think regardless of. where you're from, it's great to hear,

you know, amazing ideas that could shape. any corner of of the globe. Talk to me. about the idea inception and and what. you hope it achieves. >> So, we realized. that. the things that we've been speaking. about aren't unique to us. And a few. years ago I said look let me bring. together a number of the people globally. that I've been meeting that have been. agreeing with us that fundamentally. believe that things must change and some. of them came from mainstream within the.

financial institutions and the UN some. of them from outside some of them from. NOS's. and we brought them all to Barbados a. few years ago and we started the. discussion to frame out how can we bring. greater transparency and equity and. opportunity to countries so that we can. achieve the sustainable development. goals and at the same time we could save. the planet. >> Yeah. >> Um we are on the front line of the. climate crisis. There's no two ways. about it. I mean. >> for 6 months of the year you worry about.

a hurricane. For the other few months of. the year, Barbados is one of the 15 most. water scarce countries in the world. >> Two years ago, we actually had 50% of. our 30-year rainfall for the first few. months of the year. >> So it's real. When we brought everybody. together, we realized that look, we need. to make a major statement and to go. after a set of reforms globally. You. heard me speak about the fact about the. need for inclusion. Why should the head.

of the IMF be a European and the head of. the World Bank be an American? That's a. deal that was done by a few boys in a. club. >> decades ago. But it doesn't apply to the. world that you and I live in today. It. also doesn't necessarily mean that the. best mind is definitely exactly you may. have the best mind but you may not. >> what we want is opportunity. Let's deal. with the security council. You have five. countries that are the permanent five. but then you have other countries. outside it like India that has over what. 1.4 billion people out of 8 billion.

people in the world and they don't sit. on the permanent five. You have Africa. and I'm not talking about individual. countries in Africa because I keep. making the point that the day that. Africa gets its act together and becomes. United States of Africa then you have. Africa, India and China. and and and don't tell me about. ethnicities or boundaries drawn because. India has as many ethnicities. um or Africa has more than than India. but India has a hundreds of ethnicities.

and languages. China, >> but they found a way to hold to stay. whole as a nation state. So that why shouldn't Africa be. represented on the security council as a. permanent member? Why should they have. to go and fight for an election for a. different country every other year to. get on? Um let us look at we talked. about the per capita GDP as the basis. Why should I have to pay more money to. borrow money for development. when I am more vulnerable? And you're.

not taking into account my vulnerability. in terms of the cost of capital, the. interest rates that you'll charge me, but you're asking me to use the notion. that, oh, you've come out of poverty. So, what do you do? You put me back on. an escalator to be popularized again. because you're charging me now too much. money. >> and I'm spending more money in interest. than I'm spending in health and. education. That make sense to you? H. No. So these things all started to come. together and as we went we realized that. there are other issues pertaining to.

trade. The issues pertaining to recently. the the credit rating agencies because. they have a a a significant and some. argue disproportionate impact. >> Yeah. I mean they determine where money. goes. >> and and the cost of it. >> Exactly. >> So all of these things we're saying look. let's pause. New York is a lovely place. to be. London is a lovely place to be. Zurich is a lovely place to be but guess. what it's a closed club and the closed. club is not necessarily working for us.

because it doesn't make sense in co I. was told as a country that oh you can't. benefit from um. things that we would like to give you. therapeutics. um vaccines etc because your per capita. income is too high your upper middle. income as a country I said but that. ain't got nothing to do with people. getting co. ventilators don't have. it.

It wasn't the North Atlantic countries. We asked we had export restrictions put. on us for equipment coming out of US. We. had the UK refuse to give us even. 10,000 vaccines far less whatever. Prime. Minister of India stood up and he gave. us 100,000 vaccines. I could have kept. them all for Barbados, but when you live. in a small community in a neighborhood. dying fair, they dying fair. So we keep. some and we gave to our brothers and. sisters in the rest of the region,

however small it was. >> Then. Dr. So Tedros at WH said and Uhuru. Kenyata said to me, I want you to meet. Strive Miua cuz the African countries. have asked him to put together the. African medical supplies platform. >> and we believe I was chairing the. Caribbean community at the time. >> and we believe that there may be some. opportunities there. I call Strive. Next. thing we got the Caribbean countries on. that platform. So a country as small as.

S kits and NEAS with 38 40,000 people. could access goods at the same price as. a country of Nigeria with over 200 and. something million people. >> and it meant that therapeutics, vaccines, equipment, all of that started. to come together and that the financing. would be provided by the Afric. um out of Africa. Good things happened that made a huge. difference to us since then. Africa Zim. Bank decided to come into the region. They've now signed partnership.

agreements with all the member states. They've now opened their first office. outside of Africa in Barbados and the. whole African renaissance in the. Caribbean in the last few years has been. growing. I mean, when we came to office, I said to the population, we want a. project called Reclaiming Our Atlantic. Destiny. We were defined by Middle Passage coming. across, but we going to reclaim it. Now. I told you about the 1661 slave code. We. have a duty now.

>> to shape the world in a way that makes. sense for us and the Caribbean is part. of the diaspora which is the sixth. region of Africa and we are proud of it. but we also have to do some serious. repair. There is no direct link. by boat or by plane that is scheduled. between Africa and the Caribbean. And. yet between Barbados and Africa, there.

is no landfall. Explain that. Make that make sense to. me. So. >> you know what this makes me think of? [clears throat] And I wonder I wonder if. there's there's anything similar in your. history, but in um in South Africa, there was a a thing that my grandmother. introduced me to because she was part of. it and I just watched her. They called. it a society. >> Mhm. >> And what it was was a collection of all. the old granny's. and they would put money into a.

collection pot, right? Just their own. money. A small amount of money they. would put together, you know? So, let's. just say dollars cuz everyone, you know, >> so you put in your $10. >> and this group of 20, 30 women would put. their $10 in every month. >> and every month. >> Mhm. >> that fund, that little kitty. >> would then give one of the granny's. >> a lump sum of money. >> You know why I'm laughing? >> Why? >> That's a suzu. >> That's what it's called. >> A suzu.

>> Suzu. And I then learned actually only a. couple weeks ago that in Nigeria they. call I think isu or something very. similar. >> Oh it's very similar in Yeah. >> In Barbados we call it either suzu or a. meeting turn. >> Yes. I love that. >> You take your turn. >> out of the meeting money. >> and that everybody puts in the piece and. that is way that is how families were. sustained. >> Exactly. But when you look at what it's. trying to do, it it built this system. where people realized on the smallest. level.

>> as black South Africans, they were. unbanked. >> They couldn't get loans. They couldn't. get access to any funds that would. enable them to do something that. required more money than they had at. that moment. But if they all put in a. little bit, each person every month was. getting a lump sum and then some of it. was kept aside in case there was a. tragedy like a a funeral, a death that. was unexpected, etc. And then over time, and I've seen this. happen in like some parts of Africa, some intrepid business people have. realized that a market exists where.

people told them it didn't. And they've. gone in and said, "Hey, >> we will bank you even though you were. unbanked. We will connect you to the. financial systems." You know, even the. things you're talking about now, >> is a perfect example. >> Yeah. With Empessa. Yeah. Empessa. >> Yep. And remember all the European banks. pulled out of Kenya. >> and risk that the European banks would. never have taken. >> But what is it? But. >> the Kenyan banks took. >> Yeah. But this is the thing I found. before people pay back. >> But this is what I find fascinating. though. Like they say risk, right?

>> But Mark Zuckerberg will wake up. tomorrow and tell us he's lost hundred. billion dollars on a virtual reality. world that never happened. >> Yep. >> Straightfaced. He'll go it's gone. >> Yep. >> You know, we'll talk about risk. You. know, there's major companies that were. invested in partially by these same. countries. They lost all the money and. it's just gone. >> And and you've just hit what the. Bridgetown initiative is about. It's. about fairness. We started the conversation with Rihanna. about that. It's about fairness. That's. why Bridown's name is put to it. It's.

about decolonization. It's about. creating opportunities and bringing. light in. And and we're not asking for. any special favor. We're asking Jess for. transparency and fairness and remember. what I said equality for equals. proportionality for unequal. >> and that's what the Bridgetown. Initiative is about. >> Let me ask you this before before I let. >> and it gets technical for the economist. financiers in terms of the capital. adequacy framework and the ratios and. all that but fundamentally this is what.

is about fairness. When you speak to. people who are from larger countries, when you speak to somebody who's in. England, in the United States, uh in. France, wherever they may be, how do you make them see or what do you. say to them that helps them understand. why their fate is tied to yours when it. doesn't seem apparent? >> Well, I think climate, as I said, has.

done a great great job circumstances in. proving that point for us. Mhm. >> Because they begin to see similarities. in what's happening. The difference is. that because we are small, we have. wipeout risk. They don't they can live. to see another day. They can live to. find the way to build resilience. >> Yeah. >> So that that works. And the truth is. that when you get in front of most. people, people get it. >> Yeah. It's actually true. What happens. is the lack of audience, the lack of.

voice. And that's why I genuinely believe that. if I were to sit in front of President. Trump tomorrow and say, "Look, let's do. this thing with with me.". >> So, you've never you never set with him? >> Not not since he's back this time. >> Okay. Okay. >> You guys can drill baby drill [laughter]. and we can save the planet. You. understand? and and and and and it's a. perfect love language, but what it does. require is leadership from the G7 or G8.

or whatever you want to call them. And. that's why I've said to President Mron, Emanuel is a good friend. We've worked. together on a number of things. Um, President R himself and Barbados, we're. working on how do we finance? I actually. feel that if the World Bank was created. today, >> yeah, >> it would be created with a different. purpose. 80 years ago, you created a bank that. needed to help with the reconstruction. because of World War II. >> World War II. Yeah. >> Okay. And I can give you all the.

examples of the discriminatory. treatment, including the fact that you. you you you allowed Germany to cap. >> its debt service payments on the basis. of its exports, percentage of its. exports, or that UK took a 100red years. to repay for World War I. Um but yet you. want me to b borrow and pay back for a. school in 15 years or a hospital makes. no sense. We need longer term cheaper. capital in order for the developing. world to get where it needs to get and.

to stop the migration that you're. complaining about and to have structured. arrangements for labor movement and. labor shortages. But if we go back to all of this, we. find that look, the absence of that capacity to have. cheaper money and cheaper capital is. actually making the world unfair. Transpose it as you did to populations. The rich get access to loans on a phone.

call and the poor have to depend on a. suzu or a meeting turn if they're lucky. And it is that absence of. fairness that I believe that if we get. in the same room, most human beings do. have empathy. Most human beings do care. about fairness. But when you're in a. large corporation, as you said, and. you're pushing for quarterly returns and. all of these things, you can hide behind. all of that. >> Yeah.

>> But if I confront you face to face, you're actually going to say, you know, you're right. you know dying fear and we start to. begin even if it is going to be complex. for you to deconstruct we start the. process and we at least agree on the. destination and then we start to discuss. the modalities for reaching that. destination and. climate [clears throat] has come at a. time that maybe if I was leading 15 20.

years ago I'd just remain a voice in the. wilderness but The global circumstances. and in fact the democratization of voice. >> because of technology has created. the capacity for a movement to start to. build globally and I'm not the one who. started it. I'm not the one who's going. to finish it. I just happen to be one of. the travelers along the way and I will. do my best. Um there's a part of the. Talmud that says that we are not.

expected to complete the task but we. neither are we at liberty from resiling. from it. >> And I use the metaphor of the relay all. the time and that is why I say to you. that we have to do our part and while. I'm doing my part where I am and I'm not. I'm not a prime minister. I do the work. of a prime minister. That's not who I. am. I'm here. So for as long as I'm. here, I'll do that part of it. But.

there's going to be a time when I'll be. like Trevor and I will choose other. modalities to be able to bring about and. influence people. And a conversation at. its smallest in a block on a on in a. community is exchange and persuasion. It's no different at the international. level. The problem is that at the. international level, you're not given. access to the room. Shirley Chisum, who. as you know in this country was the. first black American congresswoman.

Beijian roots was actually schooled in. Barbados gave credit to her gra. Barbadian schooling and grandmother for. defining who she was as a person. She was the first woman to dare of black. origin to dare to run for president in a. established political party in this. country. you go back and listen to her. speeches, they are as relevant today as. they were then. But she said one major. thing that continues to to to remind me.

Well, a few things actually, but one. sure if they don't have a chair at the. table for you, bring your folding chair. And that's what we've had to do. >> I like that. >> Bring our folding chair to the table. >> That's sort of what um that's sort of. what uh Ethiopia has just done. I mean, we, you know, what we're just speaking. about is. >> Ethiopia has been trying for a long time. to build a dam. And I know it hasn't. come without its political, you know, sensitivities with Egypt and other. countries that are downstream from the. Nile, but.

>> it it it's really. um revolutionary what they've done. because Ethiopia wanted to build. >> a dam that they needed to generate. electricity for a region that covers how. many millions of people? The population. of Ethiopia is over 100 million and only. I think just over 50% of their. population have access to electricity. Yeah. >> And if you talk to anyone about the. story of Africa, >> the biggest problem in Africa is that. when the world is talking about. technology 600 million people out of 1.4.

billion do not have electricity. >> and the World Bank has committed to. doing 300 million and I thank AJ for. that. >> But what's happening to the other 300. million? the world has more than enough. money to finance it and the fact that. they're using a dam means that they're. using renewable energy that is not. becoming a drag on the planet as well. >> But how they funded it was fascinating. >> That's the story of reserves. >> I mean that's that's the most. fascinating story. They asked for a loan. from the international bank. >> and the banks international community.

refused to fund it for whatever reasons. and the Ethiopians turned inward and. between the central bank and and the. banks in Ethiopia and the ordinary. citizens it's giant bonds citizens. giving donations and I said to the prime. minister um two days ago when we opened. it um to Abby I said look. >> you know that this is the 21st century. ADWA and And for those who don't know. about AdWa, AdWa is the battle where.

Ethiopia beat Italy in 1896. Nobody believed it would have happened. and and Ethiopia came together and it. took them I think almost 2 years in the. long trek and they rose majestically. AdWa is what led to the beginning of the. Panaffrican movement. the New York. Times. When you go to the the museum in. Adisaba that commemorates Adva, you see. the New York Times articles showing that. this little African country, that's.

their mind, don't mind, is much bigger. than Italy, beat the great Italians. And. out of this then came the entire. movement that guess what? Black people. can achieve something after centuries of. domination and subjugation. And out of that came the glory of the. Panaffrican movement, the the. conferences ultimately the 1945. Manchester conference which really was. the last major one before the. independence movement and Kruma and all. of the others coming out. So for me this.

engineering feat it's the biggest dam in. Africa. It's like 2 km wide 550 ft high. I mean you have to see it to believe it. I've never seen water move at that. speed. And even after they take the. water that they need for the dam to. generate the electricity, the overspill. is coming down with a ferocity that I've. never I've never seen it. And that they. could do it when the world said no. It.

took them 14 years, but they did it. So. do you think there's a future where. smaller countries and countries that. have been cast aside start to think like. this or will but do you think there's a. possibility that the larger countries. who are being pushed by corporations. will put their thumb on the scale to. block that from happening because if if. if Barbados, South Africa, random. countries come together and say you know. what let's do our own little projects. Let's let's get our suzus going. Let's. get our societies together. Maybe I'm a.

little paranoid. I feel like there are. companies and countries who have been. benefiting this for a long time who. would go no we don't want you to do that. even though we're not going to help you. do it for yourself. >> because the status quo changes and most. people don't want those who are in. control of the livers of power don't. want the status quo to change by the. same token I've also been around long. enough to know and I think you've seen. it in South Africa that some of the very. same people who were opponents. eventually become converts.

>> Yeah that's true. And and and I think. that that is why I believe first always. in dialogue and that's why even what. happened with Charlie Kirk I think is. regrettable and horrific because. violence is never the answer. Violence. is the mechanism by which a few retain. instant gratification or instant power. but it doesn't sustain you in the long. run. >> And I think that the ability to have. conversation must always always be our. first option. So I'm more than prepared.

to be able to say, look, let us look and. see how we can free up the movement of. capital to be able to help those who. really need it. And quite frankly, I can. lose weight in terms of even debt. sustainability. I use the metaphor of. losing weight. Um, partly because it's a. personal challenge. You know what I'm. saying? But [laughter] you can lose. weight at 2 lb a month, 3 lb a month, six pound a month, 10 lb a month. There. comes a point at which the rate at which. you lose it is unsustainable. It's.

unsustainable now. >> And we've said simply to the. international community in the British. initiative that the rate at which you. want us to achieve debt sustainability. as developing countries in the world is. too stark [snorts]. >> a rate too too rapid and that if you do. that I can bring back down debt. overnight because I can negotiate new. terms. >> Yeah. But I cannot replace a generation. of persons in under 15 to 20 years. >> Yeah.

>> So let us understand what is immutable. >> and what can change and quite frankly. what you think is immutable is. immediately renegotiated in a compromise. agreement between lawyers and. financiers. >> What I'm telling you cannot be changed. is a lost generation. >> [snorts]. >> And hearing you say this, I I think back. to some of the points in our. conversation, >> populations declining, >> y. >> skills in short supply in many places in.

the world, uh people not feeling like. there's upward mobility. All of these I. feel like we can we can sort of draw a. circle around and the ven diagram of all. of them becomes the singular idea of. giving people a a chance. And and what I. mean by that is, you know, when you're. talking now about a population, I go, I. often wonder why so many governments and. corporations can't see the direct link. between their actions and why people. wouldn't want to have a child.

>> They're very quick. I've seen, you know, whether it's the Elon Musk, whoever go, this is the greatest challenge we're. facing. People are not having enough. children. And I go, "Yeah, but why would. you want to have a child in a world. >> where you cannot pay for that child's. schooling, >> where there is no health care for that. child, where you don't know where the. next meal for that child is going to. come from?". >> You you don't need to bribe people. Yeah. You don't create the environment. that is necessary for them to want to. expand. >> And if your state is not going to catch. the ball for you. >> Exactly. >> Then why do it? That's why. And you ask.

me why? Because in barus we believe that. we have a responsibility to provide for. every child education. from pre- primary to tertiary. >> The last government removed tertiary. education free tertiary education. The. first thing we did when elected even as. we were entering an IMF program was to. reintroduce free tertiary education for. Beijans at the University of the West. Indies at Caveville campus because.

without education the opportunities are. simply not going to be there and the. capacity to reason with people will not. equally not be there. Um by the same. token. we provide access to health care. I'd. like to do even more, but we do more. than most countries of the world, quite. frankly. And I think that in. understanding that, you then begin to. say to the finances, that's why I need. 30 years or 40 years to pay back for the.

construction of a school or a hospital. because I need to make sure that the. people in whom I'm investing. >> are now earning to help me pay back that. debt at that point in time. But if you. give me 10 or 15 years to do it, uh. everything bunches up and I'm not yet at. the stage where I have the capacity to. repay given the investment that I've. made in people. >> Yeah. My mom always used to say you need. to give the tree long enough time to. bear fruit. >> Absolutely. >> And if you let it grow long enough, you.

can keep plucking fruit forever. >> That's the point. And it's so basic that. if we can and that's why I say to you. that you have the ability you and others. you and Ava Juven and others who are. storytellers who are communicators more. than anything else we need the world to. hear the message. and as a prime minister or as a. political figure they'll immediately. devalue what I say by 70%.

because politicians don't carry this way. >> that you will carry as a comedian, as an. entertainer, um that she will carry as a. producer and a director, >> that uh Usain Bolt or Gary Soas will. carry as a sportsman [snorts] or Rihanna. will carry as as an artist. You have the. ability to reach people when they are. vulnerable and willing to hear. and it'll stick.

>> No, we we start like this. >> Exactly. We start like this and then our. next conversation on a road. >> playing. >> in Barbados. >> In Barbados. >> But I'm not going to be playing road. tennis with you. I'm going to get some. of my constituents to do it. [laughter]. >> As any good leader does, know when you. are not the best person for the job. That's that's the mark of a good leader. >> I I will arrange it. I'll manage it. I'll even commentate for [laughter] you. >> It's it's it's on. It's on. Um Prime. Minister Mley, thank you so much for. joining us. And uh yeah, I mean, you. know, one of, as I say, one of my.

favorite things about listening to you. is. >> My name is Mia, by the way. >> Oh, no. I mean, yes, but in my culture, haha, let me call you that and see what. my people will say to me. [laughter]. >> I acknowledge that. But, um, >> no, I I think I think. >> I hope you don't take for granted. We. live in a world where [snorts]. so many world leaders. either can't or don't feel the need to. break down some of the most complicated. issues that people are experiencing in. the world and then they turn around and.

are shocked by people protesting in the. streets burning things down or even just. losing complete faith in the system that. exists. They go, "Why won't people. vote?" And you go, "Yes, but why won't. you listen to them when the voting isn't. what's the most important thing at that. time?" And I think what I've always. appreciated about you is um you take the. time to break down the concept. You take. the time to see what someone you don't. agree with is seeing and you you you put. a concerted effort into doing what I. think all great leaders should do, which. is educating us about the world that we.

live in. So, thank you so much for. joining me. >> Thank you. You know, with our last. rebellion in 1937, the theme was educate, don't agitate. Hm. >> I [music] like that. >> Yep. >> Educate, don't agitate. >> Yeah. Well, you may sometimes need to, but at that time, that was what they. said. [music]. >> Every revolution has a different theme. >> Yeah. Yeah. And I want to thank you for. the opportunity for this conversation, and I want to thank you for making us. laugh. You know, there's a great.

Trinidadian calipian, the mighty. chocolus, and he says, [music] "You. either have to learn to laugh or you go. mad and write your epitap." H. So, keep. us laughing. Thank you so much. >> Thank you. [music]. >> Thank you so much for watching the. episode. If you enjoyed it, [music] pass. it on to a friend. If you didn't enjoy. it, pass it on to your friend still. Let. them suffer for a change. And don't. forget to engage with us in the.

comments. Uh if you want to suggest a. guest, [music] maybe there's questions. you want, maybe there's ideas that you. have, you can chat to us. We will read. through the comments and we'll [music]. get into it. Either way, I appreciate. you taking the time. Thank you for. hanging out with us on What Now. And. remember, [music] we do this for you, so. we would like to hear from you. Till. next time, thank you.