Pete Buttigieg: The Broken Promise: Democracy, the Economy & What Comes Next

a graduate of Harvard, a road scholar, a. naval reserve officer who deployed to. Afghanistan, and the mayor of a small. city in Indiana. >> Buddha Judge now the first openly LGBTQ. elected official to run for president. >> I'm running for president cuz I think. our country is running out of time. We. cannot keep doing the same thing over. and over and over again and expect it to. get better. >> The Senate overwhelmingly approved the. nomination of Pete Buddhajed as. transportation [music]. secretary. He's overseeing one of the. most significant investments in. America's bridges, roads, and [music].

rails in more than half a century. >> What made Peter stand out was his. leadership. You kind of knew that there. was an [music] extraordinary potential. there. >> This [music] is what now with Trevor. Noah. >> [music]. >> Pete Buddhajes. Do you miss being called.

Mayor Pete? >> Oh, always go by Mayor Pete. >> Oh, you still go by Mayor Pete? I like. that. Have you been on LinkedIn? >> I haven't logged into LinkedIn in a. while. Yeah, maybe. [laughter] I don't. know. >> That would be great if you had a. LinkedIn. >> I should maybe I do. I don't know. I. should check now that you mentioned it. I still have my old, you know, wonder if. my MySpace is still up somewhere. >> Just like someone trying to link with. you there. You know, you know what I. always think about like um people's. social media profiles is [clears throat]. >> the people who don't pay attention to. the world world but pay attention to the. social media and then they're friends.

with you on MySpace and they're just. like I wonder what ever happened to. Pete. [laughter]. >> Like think about it. There's people like. that out there who are friends with you. on like MySpace, Facebook, any of those. things. You went off. You went and did. things in the world. They're still. friends with you there and they're like, "I wonder what ever happened to that. guy." And now you got a beard, so you. look a little different. So they're just. like, "I wonder where he is." You didn't. always have a beard. >> No, no, this is uh it comes and goes, but I haven't had one in a while. So. >> beard crew, both of you. >> How did you make that decision of this. is it now? >> Uh mostly my husband made that decision.

>> He was like, "I like you with a beard. on.". >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Oh, I don't like seeing your face. He's. >> like, "Stop.". >> Cuz how when a partner likes the beard, it's a hard one. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. How does your how did your beard. come out? >> I think it's an easy one. You just give. in. [laughter]. I looked at myself in the mirror. I was. like, "What is your aim in life?". [laughter]. Then I was like, "What do you what do. you mean I'm doing everything right?". Then my face was like, "Is everything. right for real? Real real real?" Then I. was like, "Yeah, maybe I'll try a. mustache." Then I tried a mustache. Then. I had a goatee. Then I would hear girls.

going, "Yeah, oh, you look um yeah, with. a beard kind of." Then I was like, "Yeah." Then I grew a little bit on the. side and I was like, "Oh, what do you. think now?" Then I did a little bit of a. poll. Then I went around and I was like, "What do you look vulnerable?" I was. like, "Yeah, what do you think?" They. were like, "Oh, yeah, actually." Then it. became my identity. >> Then CO happened. Couldn't go to the. barber. >> Okay. >> Then I was like, "Let me let me see how. this thing goes." Yeah. >> Oh, that's when you went full beard. >> Yes. Then I went full beard. Then when I. came out of CO, people were like, "This. is you now.". >> Then two weeks, 3 weeks ago, I shaved.

everything off. >> Really? >> I lost my aura. >> You had to get it right back. >> completely. I was like, "I can't live. like this anymore." I saw my dimple. I. saw my this part of my chin. I didn't. like myself. [laughter] I was. >> past mirrors. I couldn't look at myself. And it started growing back and I was. like, I'm in now. >> Yeah. >> I don't know if I'm that committed yet. >> You are. You are here with it now. Still. >> if I've worn it here. It's over. It's. [laughter] It's locked in. >> Now it's official. >> If you want to see how your partner. feels about your beard, call them and.

then turn on clippers. Then go, "Yeah, I'm just shaving." And just hear what. they say. >> Then you know it's. wouldn't be good. >> I like this. I like this. I didn't I. didn't expect to be in a beard. conversation with you two. Thank you. very much. >> Yeah. How long you've been doing that? >> Don't even ask me those questions. [laughter] I can't grow a beard. Don't. There's no. >> What do you mean you can't grow a beard? >> I can't grow a beard. I've tried. It. doesn't work. It doesn't This It's gone. It's There's no chance. >> But your mustache game is strong, though. >> Thank you so much, Eugene. >> Yeah, the mustache. >> Thank you. This is what good friends do. for you. They give you hope. I.

appreciate it. No, I can't I can't grow. a beard. You can do the side. >> No. So when I was, you know what. happened is when I was um when I was. young, late like early 20s somewhere. there, I had really really bad acne. Like really really bad. So then whenever. my hair would grow out, it would make. things worse. So someone was like, "Oh, you must go and get laser so that the. hair doesn't grow." So I went and I got. laser. >> You got laser? >> Yeah, I got laser on my face. Pow pow. And then it helped. And then I was like, "Oh, this is much better. Thank you.". And then beards came into fashion. Then. I was like, "I'm joining." And then my. my skin was like, "No, you're not." So.

now I'm just This is me. Um, thank you. for being vulnerable with us. I mean, this is not something that most men like. talking about. >> what not growing a beard or getting. laser. >> What you are doing right now is you're. opening up the podcast to a huge segment. of men who are struggling with. connecting beards and some of them don't. know what happened. But you. particularly, you chose this platform to. face this disability that you now have. >> That's what we all do. You've got to. share, you've got to share your. vulnerabilities. Look, I would like to.

say I see you. Thank you. I respect your. decision. Thank you. And Pete and I. would like to say we'll think of you. when we're oiling our beards. all the time. >> Thank you, Eugene. >> You're welcome. >> Pete, welcome to the uh podcast. Mayor. Pete, [laughter] uh former Secretary of. Transportation Pete. Which which title. do you prefer the most? >> Just Pete. Just. >> Pete. >> It's weird calling you just Pete because. I feel like you're not just Pete. Like. you've done everything beyond just Pete. You know what I mean? It's like when. works if you want. [laughter].

>> You see I'm in his excellency Pete. Now. we're talking. [laughter]. >> Now we are talking. Yeah, that's. >> I'm a Midwesterner. We're like humble, straightforward people. Pete's good. >> No, I like this. I like this a lot. Thank you so much for joining. You know, you know why I'm I'm I'm excited to have. you is because like from the very first. time I heard of you and knew you, I was. on the Daily Show back then and then you. were the mayor and you know it was like. so it was Mayor Pete and then it was. like Mayor Pete's running for president. and then it was like Mayor Pete and then. it was Mayor Pete in the administration.

>> You've always been inside the government. in some way, shape or form. And this is. the first time where we find you sort of. like in an in between space. So maybe we. start there. >> What are you up to these days? Like what. are you doing? >> Yeah. So, this is the first time in 15. years that I haven't been either running. for something or in some kind of public. position or or both. >> Yeah. >> Um it's kind of great. I mean, you know, I'm most days I'm the one dropping the. kids off at school or or at camp this. summer. >> Um just able to able to stop shaving for.

a few days actually and you know, u just. things that that weren't possible when. there was that like everyday grind. Um. >> so I'm enjoying that. I'm trying to make. the most of that, but then I'm balancing. that with the fact that there's things. going on in the world that I feel like I. need to be part of or making myself. useful around all the time, which is why. I'm I'm I'm in the media and I'm. traveling and I'm I'm doing what I can. working with candidates I believe in and. uh promoting causes I believe in and uh. uh you know, just being active.

politically without being uh in an. active campaign. And it's it's. different. I mean it's it's it can be. strange uh uh sometimes because I am so. used to there being like the one big. thing. >> that that you organize your life around. Um but you know that can that can do a. lot of work for you in your life and it. can also be very unhealthy right I think. one of the occupational hazards for. people including people in public. service who have a lot of purpose in. their work is that your work becomes. your purpose and then you can't live. without it that's especially dangerous. in uh politics because sometimes doing.

right by your job means putting your job. on the line. It's the only way to do. your job well. >> uh and maybe losing it and it's it's. that much harder if if you draw meaning. from work. So yeah, I've been wrestling. with all of that. Um, but also really. enjoying a life where I'm I'm just. around my husband and kids more and at. the same time getting out on the road. and and trying to be part of the. political conversation cuz obviously. there's a lot to talk about. It almost. feels like you're like a retired. superhero. >> Yeah. [laughter]. >> Do you know what I mean? You you were.

thinking the same thing. [clears throat]. No, you know, you know why? Because we. never think of it, but at some point a. superhero goes, I'm I want to be done. >> I want to be with my family. M I want to. be, you know, it's like I want to be. Clark Kent. I don't want to spend as. much time being Superman. >> But then what happens? >> Dust off the cape once in a while. >> Exactly. Then there's something. happening. They're like, "Oh, a tower is. falling." Or they're like, "Oh, there's. a big invasion." And then it's like, "Where's Superman?" And if you were a. superhero in any capacity, >> I think it feels weird just sitting at. home cuz here's what I mean. Most of us.

watch the news. >> and we can only respond or react to the. news. Yeah. Like most people, you just. go, "I can't believe that happened. Man, that sucks." And then the most you can. sort of do if we're honest is like wait. to vote or maybe phone law maker maybe. >> But if you were in the inner workings of. it, >> you have more access to the levers that. can actually change something and do. something. So maybe maybe that's a good. question is like what would you say is. something you've seen recently in the. past few months that has made you go,

"Ah, I got to get off the couch and. shave a little bit.". I mean, where do you start, right? I. mean, obviously, so many things are. happening in the country under this. administration. From these like massive. things that I think threaten the. integrity of the republic, like like. sending troops into the streets of. American cities. >> Yeah. >> To like very specific policy things that. I disagree with at the FTC or whatever. or at the department I used to serve in. I mean, one thing that's hard even if. even if somebody comes in who you agree. with, it's I think it's hard for anyone.

who leaves a high office to watch their. successor, uh, but it's especially hard. for me to watch them dismantle the. airline passenger protections we put in, for example. We worked really hard on. that. It was the right thing to do. You. know, we took on the airlines and we won. and now they're just unraveling it. So, there's a lot of things like that. >> that are very hard to watch. But, you. know, what I've realized is I don't have. to be in a seat of political power to be. talking about it. I mean, one of the uh. advantage privileges, I guess, that. comes with just kind of where I fit in. the picture right now is, you know, I've.

like my unexpected specialty of going on. Fox News a lot, right? Like part of that. was I was like everybody else. occasionally finding myself watching. that network being like, man, somebody. ought to go on there and say this and. then I got to actually be the guy who. went on there and said this change. >> Um, and I can still do that. I mean, I'm. not doing it from a position of power. >> Yeah. Uh but uh you know as a citizen. I'm out there talking about this stuff. and and and I'm hopeful that that. matters. >> I I want to talk about each of those. things that you said individually.

because I think they branch out into. topics and ideas that everybody's. grappling with right now. So let's start. with like the first part of it. You know. leaving a position seeing somebody else. step into that position. I think we we. all take that for granted in many ways. cuz that's it's very rare that that. happens. Most of the time if you leave a. position, the person who fills the. position after you is generally trying. to do the same job as you. >> Yeah. >> Just generally do do you know what I. mean? It doesn't matter what level. you're on. So in in my case, it's like. John Stewart hosting the Daily Show.

>> I come after him. We're sort of aligned. Do you know what I mean? And obviously. we knew each other as people, but we're. we're heading in a similar direction as. human beings. >> and and and so on and so forth. In your. office, you leave your job as the head. of HR. the next person who comes and. does HR, it's weird if they're like, "Nah, I don't believe in HR. >> I don't believe in people.". >> Yeah. >> You're like, "What? What? What. happened?" They're like, "Yeah, that's. that's not how I roll." [laughter]. >> Well, and you could take it one further. So, I would say actually in my. department, for example, I disagree with. my successor, but like I think he.

believes in continuing the department, right? Okay. >> You go with the Department of Education. >> Oh, yeah. That's. >> the secretary's mission is to demolish. the Department of Education, right? Or. you have people in charge of. environmental protection who don't. believe in environmental protection, right? or you know they they inherit. USID the International Development. Agency and then they just burn it to the. ground. So yeah, there are I I shouldn't. I should only complain so much maybe. about where I used to work because at. least he believes in it's still there. Yeah. And even the projects they killed. some really good projects, but most of.

the projects that I launched uh they're. still doing. They just put a Trump sign. on them so they can take credit for it, but they're still doing the project. >> Do you mind when that happens? >> Yeah, of [laughter] course I do. >> Okay. I like that artist. All right. because he he promised when he was. president that he was going to do a big. infrastructure package and then he. failed. >> and then we set out to a big do a big. infrastructure package and he campaigned. against it. People forget this. It's not. just that he didn't do it. It's when we. did it, he threatened any Republican who. was part of the bipartisan majority that.

voted to do the infrastructure bill and. said, "We will remember.". >> And you know, most of them either got. taken out or took themselves out for the. crime of having joined us to like vote. for more road funding, right? >> Um and now they're literally like. slapping Trump signs on projects that. were funded by our department, our. administration with a bill that Trump. tried to stop. So yeah. Yeah, I'm kind. of pissed off about that. >> I I always wonder if there's a way to. like fix that in American politics.

The first time I remember thinking about. it was when I first moved to the US. I. was reading a newspaper and not a. physical one like digitally relax. I saw. the way you looked at me and um and I. was reading I was reading the newspaper. and it it was interesting because it had. names and behind every name it had a. little D or a little R. >> and you know it would say like. congressperson da da da says this Dr. Congress person Dr. And I was like, "What what is what is that?" And then. someone was like, "Oh, that's Democrat, Republican.".

>> And it was so normal to my to my. American friends to say that. >> But I for the life of me, I couldn't. understand why news in America. >> is filtered through the lens of politics. before it's filtered through the news of. of of through the lens of news. >> I hadn't thought about that. Yeah. Any. other country, I guess, you don't see. the party label. >> No, not not behind your name. Not behind. you. Like in South Africa, for instance, they don't do that. They'll tell you if. it's a story about a person who's in the. ANC or person in the DA, they'll say. that, >> but it's not next to your name. It is. not the thing that defines it. >> doesn't become your identity.

>> Exactly. And so even when they propose. something, >> I I always wonder how much it blocks. Americans in their ability to be for or. against an idea. If the if the idea is. Eugene Kaer, Republican says he's for. beards, then I'm like, but I I like. beards, but do I want to support a. Republican? Do you know what I Like I. wonder how much that actually blocks. people from. >> from thinking of embracing an idea just. because it might come from the quote. unquote wrong. >> I'm sure it's not. You know, I have a. little um a little experience on that. through the lens of being a mayor. because you know there are some every.

state, every city has a different. system. Some of them it's like national. politics. They have a primary and. there's a Republican primary and there's. a Democratic primary and there's two. candidates. Others. >> um there's a nonpartisan system and so. someone emerges. They might be they. might proudly be a Republican or a. Democrat, but uh they might actually not. tell anybody which they are too. It just. depends. And so I would find myself at. mayor's conferences where there's other. mayors uh you know these are elected. officials uh in positions of major. responsibility and get to know them well.

and not know like I'd have to go back. online and look up wow. >> whether they're Democrat or Republican, right? Uh so I I do think you view. people and you view their ideas. differently if you don't know like right. off the bat what uh you know what team. they're they're from. >> It is it is weird to see America flip. and flop though. I will say that like. when you're talking about like one. administration wants this then the next. administration wants that the next. administration. I I I was at an event in. um I wonder where it was. I don't I.

don't remember now. Europe, Middle East. somewhere and there were some world. leaders gathered and they were having. this discussion about America and its. new place in the world. And one of the. world leaders said something that was. the most interesting thing I'd ever. heard because it gave me a different. perspective. The moderator said, "How do. you feel about what's happening in. America right now? And what do you think. this means for the future?" And he said, "Well, I don't really worry about the. future. I just know we have to weather. this moment for the next three or four.

years. >> and then America will flip this way and. then it'll flip that way and it'll flip. that way and it'll flip this way." And. he said, "We think longer term. >> and we try to think beyond one cycle at. a time." And there was a there was a. general concession and and an agreement. amongst the world leaders there who. went, "Yeah, that's pretty much. America." And if you think about it, it's it is true for the most part. >> America is one of the largest, most. prominent countries that completely.

switches the direction it's going in. every singleish four years. which is a. that's like not a thing really when you. think about it. >> Yeah, I think I'm trying to decide if I. if I buy that. I I I think that's. somewhat true if we're in a normal. political pattern. I think we're outside. of that now. Like I I I worry that even. in my party, I worry that people are. acting as if we're in this kind of. normal pattern of elections and politics.

when we're actually increasingly outside. of it. Right. So, >> in what way? We've always had uh someone. win an election, somebody aggressively. or or not like promote their agenda, they win, they lose, whatever. But. >> we have not had an American government. try to consolidate its power over civil. society, >> over broadcast companies, over law. firms, over universities, uh you know, you just go on down the. list the way that we have now. And what.

I see is is a real risk that what. happens is way beyond. >> uh what happens in one election or two. elections. I think we I think my party. could win in 2026 and not get the. message. I think we could even win in. 2028. >> and not fully grasp the level of change. that that these guys in charge now are. trying to achieve. Which is why I'm. trying to push people who are in the. opposition to Trump whether they think. of themselves as Democrats or not to.

think at a higher altitude as well about. like even my my organization a nonprofit. in a pack we call win the era. >> Um not that I don't care about winning. the election but I think what's more. important is to win the era. >> right. >> and when you're thinking of it in those. terms you start looking at okay what. does it mean to get ready for the next. the way some of these other countries. you talked about planned. What does it. look like to get ready for the next 5, 10, 20, 30 years? Especially because. >> I think we're also at a change or an end.

>> of a certain cycle that has gone on for. decades. Like certain patterns, assumptions, institutions about how the. world works and about how the country. works that were set up in the 40s and. 50s are falling apart. And I don't think. we can just go take power, find all the. pieces, tape them back together, and. have things be the way they used to be. I think so many of our institutions. have needed to be rebuilt for a long. time. They're being smashed to pieces. now by the current administration, which.

is wrong. But it would also be wrong to. imagine that this the answer is to just. go back and try to put them back the way. it back to the way it was. >> I know you could say that about anything. from the Department of Education to um. tax policy in this country uh which I. think we might have to start over on if. if they really break the the fiscal. viability of the country, which I think. they're trying. um to things like. international development in USA ID. >> You know what I always wonder? I wonder. who pays the actual price. >> cuz politics is weird in that.

when you look at the term generally of a. president in a democratic country. It's not really enough time to implement. change and see the effects of that. change. Just generally speaking, not all. the time, but like economies move. slowly. effects generally, you know, happen over time. But I think to myself, like, wouldn't it be crazy? And we've. seen this sort of happened before in. America. Wouldn't it be crazy if like. Trump does all of these things. >> and [snorts] then only at the end of his.

term do you sort of start to see the. results, but that means whoever comes in. next takes all of the blame because. that's when you might see the biggest. results of education. That's when you. might see the biggest results of taxes. and how they've changed and healthcare. that's been cut. >> No, some of they're doing that by. design, right? some of the healthcare. cuts they're doing that'll take people. off Medicaid, they set up to only take. effect after the next election. >> Yeah, they did that. I forget. >> They're not stupid. Like they know that. that that can happen. You're right. Even. if you are trying to do something. immediately, it takes a while to filter. through. Uh I mean, I saw this back when. I was mayor. I spent a lot of my first.

year as mayor doing things that upset. people and cost political capital and. weren't necessarily popular believing. that if I was right, if they were the. right things to do by year four, I would. have something to show for it and people. would trust me, reelect me, and give me. the benefit of the doubt. And that's. >> that's kind of what happened. >> Um, everything from the way we designed. our streets to the way I organized the. city administration, people were mad. uh. we we stuck to I heard them out but we.

also stuck to it in some important ways. and and and then it things worked and. then they gave me a little more uh. credit or a little more trust the next. time around. So I think that in an ideal. sense is how it's supposed to work. But. I agree with you that I think a lot. about if if there was a fouryear if. there was a fiveyear instead of a. four-year term and we were able to do. just a little more on the bridges and. the tunnels and the roads and the stuff. that that at least the the little piece. of it that I worked on. >> How would things have been different?

>> I come from a country where there were. general elections last year and no one. party won outright. >> Whoa. Whoa. We I come from a COUNTRY. WHERE [laughter]. I LIKE HOW YOU JUST KICKED me out of my. own country. Wow. [laughter]. >> Wow. Wow. Wow. Eugene, [laughter]. >> look. I'm sorry. >> You got to understand there's nothing. has changed about me, Eugene. I'm. proudly South African. >> I'll tell you what. >> I tell you what. [laughter]. >> I need to just give you guys a couple of.

minutes. when no no one party won. outright the ANC for the first time had. to share power with another party which. is an opposition party which is now in. government but what I've realized is. when people oppose someone's idea as. soon as they get into power they get. co-opted into believing in the same. thing as well and I think that's what's. causing distrust in my country about. political parties and if you've been. opposing for so long the next thing you. become minister of whatever now you're. like I'm enjoying the perks the blue. lights and the. great yo what happened to that thing.

where you said you hated the hold on. hold on we'll deal with it when we get. there and I think that's what caused a. lot of distrust and I've said to many of. my friends it looks like most. politicians want young people to be. interested in voting but not to actually. vote. >> is do you think that might be true for. many countries not just for the US or. South Africa. >> I don't know that's a really interesting. warning for those of us who sometimes. fantasize about what it would be like if. America had five political parties. >> um and you know there was a there was a.

minute last year when uh speaker speaker. McCarth whenever it was McCarthy was. losing his grip on the US House, it. looked for a minute like he could maybe. keep his speakerhip by getting some. Democratic votes. And I thought if. Democrats name their price and McCarthy. goes with it, we could see a coalition. government on American soil for the. first time in my life. >> Yes. >> And I was actually kind of intrigued by. that idea. It didn't happen obviously, but I I wondered what whether that might. give us some chance of breaking out of. this really staltified paralyzed state.

that we're in. But sounds like what. you're saying is not to romanticize that. model too much because it has its other. >> um its other downsides which which makes. sense. >> I think for us the problem we have is. here in America there's no party that. actually commands a majority. >> Mhm. >> Right. I mean both parties in terms of. people who really are like yeah that's. my party are at like something like 30%. Right? But every election. functionally pretty much every election. for Congress and certainly for the. president you kind of comes down to two.

and people are supposed to pick and then. people are dissatisfied with what they. get right. Um, part of what I wish we could do to. respond to that is just expand the scope. of things that. both parties think are inarguably true. >> Mhm. >> And we'll defend and then go out argue. about the other stuff. So, I don't know. about South Africa, but I know a lot of. countries where if there's a center. right party and a center left party, they both, for example, acknowledge the.

reality of climate change. Yeah. >> They'll fight over They'll fight over. who's doing a better job fighting. That's yes, >> but they don't fight over whether it's a. thing, right? >> Universal healthare. >> Yeah. A lot of these things are just a. given. >> And I'd like to invest a little more in. what I think of as the inarguables that. we all ought to be or most of us ought. to be able to to say we care about. >> Yeah. >> But then there are all these other. things that are contested that that that. are fought over that we still have like. twothirds support in the country for. >> Um, importantly, lots of things that. Democrats are for and Republicans are. against that two-thirds of Americans. agree on. I mean, the idea that we got.

to tax the wealthy more, the idea that. we ought to have a stronger minimum. wage, the idea that uh there ought to be. paid family leave in this country when. you have a kid, uh ideas around women's. right to choose or uh freedom to marry. >> or climate change or background checks. on guns. These are not like 5149 things. These are actually like 60 or 70%. consensus positions in the country. >> Yeah. And yet my party can't figure out. how to get 51% let alone 60 or 70.

>> uh on our candidates. I think that needs. to lead to some introspection on on how. we how we approach these issues. And. then there's this this other set of. issues that I'm spending a lot of time. thinking about that don't have any left. to right pattern yet. I'm thinking about. a lot about artificial intelligence. Right. Where I think most people left, right or center are skeptical of a lot. of these tech companies. Yeah, >> interested in AI if only because we use.

it, you know, chatbt or whatever we use. more and more in our day-to-day lives. >> Excited about what it can do, but also. very worried about what it might do to. us. And there's this moment where it. hasn't fallen into this obvious left. right fight yet. >> That's interesting. Mhm. >> But what co taught us the hard way is. that even something like public health. and getting vaccinated uh that. you would think was not a partisan thing. almost overnight became one. >> Yeah. >> Which tells me that this is a very. special and narrow window around AI to.

talk about things that might be shared. principles before we figure out what to. fight over. >> between Democrats and Republicans. >> You know what I mean? that that yeah. that actually is a fascinating idea to. think about is like when does an issue. suddenly become politicized. >> and when is it not? I distinctly. remember because I mean I was like in. the thick of things when it was co and. it was. >> I distinctly remember seeing one of the. strangest flips and it was how Donald. Trump was pushing forward for a vaccine. >> Right? Donald Trump was I'll say this.

again. Donald Trump was pushing forward. with a vaccine and he was leading a team. that was like it was operation something. warp speed. >> warp speed operation warp speed. >> and it was like Donald Trump and I I'll. never forget this moment. >> I would see liberals progressives. democrats whoever whatever they want to. call I would see tons of them going I. don't trust his vaccine this man is how. are they making it so quickly how are. they rushing the I don't trust Donald. Trump's going to make a I was like guys.

Donald Trump's not in lab. >> It's not like he's there with like his. little vial and he's like add two of. these four drops. I think I got it. No, >> he's leading a task force that is trying. to get then they were like I just don't. trust it. I just don't trust it. >> And then Biden wins. >> during co. >> Biden's in charge now. >> They keep moving forward with the. vaccine which I still say is Trump's. vaccine and by the way which Trump has. said is his vaccine. And then I noticed everyone flip. All of.

a sudden people were like, "Well, I of. course I trust." And then now the flip. happened the other way the other way. around. It's like people were like, "I. don't trust that vaccine. I don't trust. the Democrats." And I was like, "What. just happened? Has it become so. >> like red and blue that you you get what. I'm saying? You can literally just flip. based on. >> No, it's true. >> Who's who's telling you something? >> Yeah. Who's telling? And then Trump, he. went to I don't know if you saw this. He. went to one of his rallies. I will never. forget this. And then he said, "It's my. vaccine.". >> Say it in his voice.

>> in the crowd. Oh, he's there. He's like, "It's my I I created a vaccine. Joe. Biden taking credit for my vaccine. Taking credit. I did it. I did it." And. then the crowd was like, "Boo.". [laughter]. Crowd was like, "Boo." And then he's. like, "Yeah, a lot of people don't like. it, but it was mine. It was mine. I did. it. I did it.". >> And [laughter]. his crowd was booing the idea of the. vaccine. And Trump was like, "No, no, no. It's mine. >> It's mine." Yes. And even now in moments. you'll see him slip. If someone asks him. >> who made it, he'll be like, "Well, I. made it." But then he sort of says it.

like Joe Joyce Joe spoiled it, >> but he still goes, "He made it." And I'm. like, "What happened in that moment?" I. love that you brought up the AI thing. because it's like when does a topic or. an issue become politicized in America? And I was wondering, do because I know. you you spend a lot of time thinking. about this. >> Is it when the groups know which lever. to pull? Is it when like like for. instance I I I often think that. sometimes American politics is thought. of as this um this pure ideal idea and.

ideal that's hanging on its own. >> and we sometimes forget how many outside. forces are poking and proddding at it. right. >> so if I run a major corporation. >> and I'm trying to get AI you know I want. to get as few restrictions as possible I. want to be in a power position I think. all I would do is look at which party. would be more amunable to getting me. what I want and then I would try frame. it so that AI is in or out of the other. party's wheelhouse. Does that does that.

doesn't sound like real to you or even. familiar? >> That's right. And I think companies do. that all the time like they figure out a. way if if you know you're running a. clean tech company. >> and Trump wins and suddenly anything. green is out of fashion. Maybe it's. smarter to talk about it in terms of uh. contributing to American energy. independence or American energy. dominance which is also true, right? was. one thing that like green energy has to. say for itself. Now it doesn't I mean. Trump's still killing wind power but. that I think that happens all the time. on some level. >> I think also though a lot of this is. downstream from culture as they say.

right that that the politic politicians. kind of flatter themselves or ourselves. that that we're shaping things. >> Yeah. Sometimes obviously leadership. decisions matter hugely but like a lot. of times a lot of things have worked. through the culture before you even get. to the the the the left and right. boundaries of what politicians get to. do. >> That's interesting. >> And then sometimes it can come back out. So think about tech, right? Think um not. AI, think about social media. >> Yeah.

>> So it starts with kind of like left. vibes, right? Think of like early. internet days. these guys like basically. seem like Democrats cuz they're. >> maybe they're more libertarian deep. down, but like they're young, they're. socially liberal, they think climate. change is real, they care about. immigration, you know, >> and you know, you've got. >> Obama hanging out with tech CEOs. That. seems like a very natural thing in like. 2012, say, right? Then these things happen with the way. social media affects the election, the. role of Twitter and suddenly it's gets.

more complicated than that and you come. to this point where actually now when. you think tech CEO, Silicon Valley tech. CEO, you are more likely to think of. them. >> at that dinner in the Trump, you know, White House. >> than um thinking of them like rubbing. elbows with Obama, right? >> And yet, >> wow. even though they that's been kind. of coded either way. One of the few like. kind of areas where the horseshoe has. come together on our political spectrum.

is the idea of getting phones and social. media apps out of our schools. >> So you've got really right-wing like. mega right-wing politicians. Josh Holly comes to mind. >> Yeah. >> Who I would disagree with on ferociously. strongly on lots and lots of things. um. kind of teaming up with more liberal. politicians and not just federally but. at the state level. >> saying things like, "Yeah, a a a screen. should not be with a kid uh during the.

hours that they're in school because. that's a distraction. It's a problem. It's a vector for a lot of bad things to. get into their their minds and there's. actually something of a consensus. I. don't think that's happening because the. politicians got together and said, "Hey, we got to find something that we can. agree on. What about this?" Or put to. put it another way, if that happened, it. happened after more and more parents who. didn't agree on politics. Yeah. Didn't. agree on what they thought of, you know, this or that election or how social. media played, but definitely agreed on, oh wow, this could be screwing up my. kid. [clears throat]. >> Uh start to feel the same way about this.

issue. And that pressure then finds its. way, which is healthy by the way, that. pressure finds its way into the. political system. >> and then politicians are saying, "Yeah, we we got to do something about that.". Right. We're going to continue this. conversation right after this. [music]. What always helps a voter not feel. helpless? Because sometimes people think. of government as this big juggernaut. that's going to. >> happen with or without you and you're.

just happy for smaller wins. Like for. example, in my country, people who are. >> in my country, >> Pete, you know what I mean? [laughter]. I'LL STAY OUT of this. [laughter]. >> our country. Trevor. >> Thank you, Eugene. >> You're welcome. >> People who are mostly underprivileged or. underserviced will always worry about. social grants. If you can sort that out. or cheaper housing, if you can sort that. out, whether it takes you four years of.

your tenure or the last two months of. it, it will happen. Just the hope of it. is always enough. So, how do people feel. empowered that whoever they voted for um. will always do what they promised? How. do you hold the person that you voted. for accountable? Because obviously that. seems like protesting on social media. becomes a thing. >> I think that's I think that's universal. I think that's every country to be. honest. It is a great question. >> Yeah. >> Well, look, the answer is supposed to be. the election, right? >> But look at our system. I mean, in. addition to the um all the problems.

around presidential elections, including. the fact that we're the only. presidential democracy in the world. where the person who gets the second. most votes can get the office and the. person who gets the most votes loses. because of the electoral college. >> But in addition to that, you look at the. congressional level and out of 435 seats. in the US House, less than one in 10, less than 40 are actually considered. competitive. >> Less than 40. >> Yeah. So even though we are let's say.

typically a 55 45 country in terms of. which way the country feels which party. the country supports you you have states. like where I grew up in Indiana. >> I remember when it was five and four. five Republicans four Democrats in the. house then it was seven and two because. they jerrymandered it now they're under. pressure to make it like nine and zero. and even if Indiana's a more Republican. state like a 6040 that's probably true. about Indiana right now it's not 100 to. zero right and So. the there's this thumb on the scale, not. in terms of somebody like secretly going.

in and changing what's in the ballot. machines, but out in the open, the way. they redraw redraw these districts that. has made more and more of our elections. less competitive. So big picture, we. need to reform that. >> In the meantime, since that's not going. to happen overnight, I think the best. ways and places to feel empowered are. first of all closer to home because a. lot of these processes are actually. playing out locally. A lot of decisions. about vaccinations are happening at the. state level or even the county level. Yeah. Right.

>> Uh most decisions about policing happen. at the local city level. >> A lot of decisions about resources for. mental health or the policies we were. just talking about about smartphones or. any number of things are happening. either at a state or a local level. >> There's a much better chance of getting. somebody's attention at the local level. Yeah. And look, I came out I got started. as mayor, right? So part of it is I I. think in those terms, but I saw like a. city council make a different decision. because a bunch of people lined up, many.

of them too young to even be eligible to. vote, and said, "Hey, this decision is. going to impact me, and they spoke with. a kind of moral authority that that. young people have.". >> And it got people's attention, and it it. it changed things. So that's one example. of of where I think people sometimes. have more power than they might imagine. Mhm. >> Even if I understand why and share why. so many of us feel disempowered when it. comes to national politics. >> Another thing is to recognize that you. don't have to wait for the next election.

to be having an effect. So of course. periodically you have these elections. that's the kind of ultimate check on. some on power. >> assuming the elections take place. appropriately. >> But in the meantime. >> some stuff that sounds very oldfashioned. like getting in the streets or calling. your member of Congress matters. So, you. can tell it matters because of uh what. happened at these town halls, right? A. lot of people, especially when the. Republicans were cutting Medicaid, a lot. of people went to the town halls and. said, "If you cut Medicaid to give tax. cuts to wealthy people, it's going to do.

this to me and I'm pissed.". >> Yeah. >> And it mattered enough that a lot of. these members either stopped doing the. town halls completely or had these. moments that showed that that really. shook them. Right. So I think that we need to get more in. the habit of flexing political muscle. offline. >> as citizens, >> not just on our, you know, on our. smartphones, but yeah, as citizens in a. very real IRL human 3D format. And the. the other thing I would say back to our. thing about culture is that a lot of the.

the kind of battlefield of ideas and. politics is inside people's social. circles and their families. Yeah. >> And I wonder if actually because it's so. easy for us to spout off on politics. online, we're actually less likely to. have a hard political conversation with. someone we know or care about. >> But those are the people you can. actually move, right? Like we know time. and time again, we've seen like people's. hearts and minds change when somebody. they already know and trust. shapes the way they think about.

something. And I I worry that we might. be doing less of that in a moment when. we need to be doing more. >> Yeah. Interpersonal mobilization. >> Absolutely. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> You know, it's funny. I I think of it. less as changing people's minds and I. think of it more as just being around. people who change you and how your mind. works. >> Like the reason I I think of it is I. remember reading a book about how the. views and opinions that we hold are. often times more influenced by our local.

and our location, >> right, >> than how we think we think. M. >> right. >> And I I remember I finished reading the. book and I thought to myself, huh, maybe. you're not conservative. You just live. in a rural area. >> Mhm. >> Right. >> And maybe you're not actually liberal. You just live in a major metropolis. >> Yeah. >> And I'm not dismissing anybody's. political views, but I think it's. inevitable that if you move to a major. city where there are more people who. have come from more places, you're going. to be exposed. You're in New York,

you're walking around, you're like, "This is how I think men dress." within. the day you're like, "Oh, maybe I don't. know how men dress.". >> I've been resisting that. >> Yeah. When you're around it, but when. you're around it enough, >> I have been resisting. >> I'm keeping my fashion sense until I. leave. [laughter]. >> Stay here long enough. What the men stay. here long enough. You'll see. >> But what what are your tools of. resistance? >> My wardrobe. [laughter]. >> But it's but this is what I mean. So, and and and you don't even realize it's. happening to you. So. >> like you know the Overton window is such. a powerful thing in our lives because.

it's where we perceive the the bulk of. reality to exist. >> and then it shifts without us realizing. it's shifting. >> So. >> you look at yourself like beards are a. good example. I remember a time and I I. know I have a personal you know feeling. to that and I'm I'll say I'm biased but. I remember a time. >> when a beard was considered the number. one um indicator of your. unprofessionalism. Hm. >> You could not be elected with a beard. You could not be on TV with a beard. You.

could not get an interview. People were. like, "The dude with the beard news. >> You can't read the news with a beard.". And then, >> huh, >> part of it is co, >> you know, whatever it is shifts in. society and all of a sudden it's like, oh, look at that. Oh, that that news. anchor has a beard. Oh, and that TV. presenter has a beard and your teacher. has a beard and and then society doesn't. realize that the Overton window of a. beard has shifted. Same thing happened. with tattoos, >> right? There was a time when a tattoo. was a great way to know who you. shouldn't hire. That's how people. thought of it. Oh, tattoo. I guess we're.

not hiring you. >> Yeah. >> And then now a tattoo almost means. nothing. It's like it's not. >> it it is not a signifier that tells you. about how somebody does or doesn't live. their lives. Not that it ever was, >> but now it definitely isn't even in. society's view for the most part. And so. when I think about these things and I. think about like the Overton window and. how it shifts in politics, I wonder if you've thought about it on a. local level versus a national level. because you you are in an interesting. position.

>> Yeah. >> You were a mayor. >> Mhm. >> As a mayor, you're only trying to shape. the lives of the people who are in the. same town that you live in. >> You know, we all know the streets. We. all know that corner. We all know that. shop. Yeah, >> let's get something done. I would love. to know how you think the national. nationalization of all politics has. adversely or maybe beneficially affected. politics in America because I'm I'm. assuming there's a big difference.

between what people need on the ground. and what they're reading about as like. national news. >> Totally. I thrived on the fact when I. was mayor that our work was distant from. what was going on in Washington or. national politics. >> And I think that's one of the reasons. without ever concealing where I was that. I was a Democrat, that I was more. progressive than probably most people in. my city. I had, you know, before I. became more of a national figure, I had. like equal approval rating among.

Republicans, Democrats, and independents. in the city because they weren't, >> they just wanted if I was going to get. the trash picked up and are we going to. like grow the local economy, you know, what were we doing about these this. blocking and tackling like basic things. >> to take care of the city. >> And so, I guess to your question, I'd. say it's one in one way easier, and one. way harder. the the way that it was. easier was we were all operating from. pretty consistent sense of the facts. >> So if there was a hole in the road as.

the mayor I couldn't be like that's the. best road ever. There's no holes in it. and like people could see and they like. there's a hole in the road. What are you. going to do about it? Right? If. something was good or something was bad. people could just tell. >> And so there was much less of a contest. over what the facts were. >> Wow. >> And much more of a contest of given. these facts, what are you going to do? about it, >> right? It was the good, the bad, and the. ugly. I The ugly was we had because we'd. been a factory town, we had acres of. collapsing auto factories everywhere and. vacant and abandoned houses everywhere. And you couldn't escape it. You couldn't.

pretend otherwise. >> And so what was easier was we at least. had the same reality. >> uh compared to nationally where you can. tell like the way like the way Donald. Trump talks about American cities. Yes. >> He is clearly just using his. imagination. >> Yeah. >> Right. This is not based on any. experience of what it's actually like. >> Yeah. Or maybe it's social media feed. cuz I think we take for granted how much. that man is on social media. >> Totally. >> Do you know what I mean? >> Yeah. >> Now, here's the way it's harder. It's. harder because if you're trying to pry. open an Overton window, the more that.

the reality you're trying to describe. that's different is kind of in. somebody's face. I think the harder it. is to picture something different. I I. can try to open somebody's Overton. window and I have about. >> changing the electoral college. Like I. talked about that when I was running for. president, which probably not the. smartest thing to do in New Hampshire. And I definitely didn't think that that. was gonna like happen in five years, but. I just think like I should lay down a. marker from the earliest in my career. till the end about that being important. and try to like push push push. So like. one day 20 years from now, maybe we will. fix it.

But when you're asking people to look. around the vacant and abandoned houses. in their neighborhood or look at the. abandoned factory downtown. >> Mhm. and say with a straight face, it. doesn't have to be this way. We can. change it. If you trust me, I will. change it. Give me a chance. >> Um, that can require even more of a a. push on the imagination than I want when. I'm talking in abstract terms about what. we might want our country to be like. >> Okay. Right. >> Yeah, that makes sense.

>> But I think the other thing that's at. stake in what you're saying is um a kind. of a humility about what we believe. Like I passionately believe in all of. the things that I passionately believe. in. By definition, I think I'm I think. I'm right about the things I I believe. >> But I recognize that if I were born in a. different family and raised in a. different community and soaked up. different values, >> I would probably think differently about. a whole bunch of things. And that's just. a basic thing that's definitely true.

about how we all form our political. values. And yet there's even less room to show. regard for that now than there's ever. been because instead of a news story and. I now I sound like a grumpy old-timer, but I can say like I grew up in a time. when the way I learned the news was I. watched a TV bit or read an article and. that article on a controversial issue. contained the perspectives of the two.

different sides, >> whatever it was, abortion taxes, you. know, And it's not that I read both. sides and wound up in the middle. Like. maybe I read both sides and seeing the. other side made me feel my side even. more strongly. >> Mhm. >> Or maybe not. Maybe the other side made. me stop and think. But the point is you. would think about it. Now I have a feed. And what does the feed give me? >> Gives me two things. Here's this person. I already like doing something that that. looks good. >> Yeah. >> And reminds me why they're amazing. >> And here's this person I already don't.

like doing something which reminds me. why I don't like them. Yeah. And that's. it, right? And I think it it it makes it. that much harder for us to have any. humility about why we are where we are. on the political spectrum and and and. why we believe what we believe about. what ought to happen next. >> Yeah. I think as you separate. communities that becomes the first thing. like we had um Robert Putnham on the. podcast. >> a [snorts] while ago and he wrote that. amazing book bowling alone. the. fundamental I mean you're familiar with. it but for those who don't know the.

fundamental premise of the book was he. wanted to study why some societies work. and why some don't and when he was in. Italy where he was studying it he came. to realize that in Italy which is a. relatively small country especially in. like in size itself he saw that some. towns and cities were doing particularly. well and people trusted the government. they engaged in the government and there. was low levels of corruption and this is. what interested me cuz you know from our. country. I uh I was thinking I was like.

why is corruption worse or better in. some places and he found one of the most. interesting correlations and it was just. about how strong community bonds were. >> Yeah. So in places where there were. still church choirs and community bowls. and clubs whether it was coffee or. debates social clubs. >> he found was the biggest correlation. >> interesting. >> between how the thing worked and then. when he brought it to America he almost. instantly found it was it was true.

>> where people had bowling clubs is where. they generally were less polarized and. where they had more community and they. they they moved in unison in a different. way. didn't mean doesn't mean they all. had the same view. >> but he found it was because you had. spaces where people could sit together. not coming to talk about politics but. because of the in between time would. just talk about things that might be. political so they would say to your. point hey man you see that hole in the. road what's been going on and the other. person goes like well I heard this guy. Mayor Pete says he's going to fix what.

do you think of that guy I don't know. man what do you think what do you think. but because you know me and I know you. and we're bowling together. >> we're more likely to form form opinions. that are shaped by the collective as. opposed to individually and it's less of. an echo chamber, right? >> And that made me rethink everything. I. even started quote unquote judging. America less because I went maybe. America's not polarized. Maybe America's. just isolated, you know, and he shows it like starts. with TV. >> He goes, as soon as TV came, people just.

stopped hanging out. And when they. stopped hanging out, that's where you. start to see the split in American. politics. And I was like, "Oh man, what. if it's not that people don't get along, it's just that people don't hang out.". >> Yeah. I also think uh co played a big. part in exposing people's. vulnerabilities. >> You're not wrong. >> I think the rise of the of the political. strong man, which in most cases would be. called a dictator before has become more. prevalent. We see it now with countries. that we won't mention their names and we. know them, [laughter]. India, >> South Africa. So we know those countries.

and the strong man as and I think it. makes sense now because I've been. battling with this question is. >> why counselors locally and municipal. managers and mayors are not taken. seriously is because people think. there's an overlord somewhere that can. affect change immediately. Then you go, "No, don't worry about him. He probably. doesn't even know there's a pothole in. the street, but I do." But people have. looked at the world now, like I said, people would have assumed before that a. Putin, a Zilinski, a Trump or Ramapos or. whoever in Africa would have been a.

dictator 10 years ago. But since now it. looks like if he's a strong man and he's. rolling with strong men, it looks like. we are safe generally as a population. But I also think. [sighs and gasps]. >> I think people generally as voters have. lost hope in the system. M. >> I I see it every time I see when people. go what can we do that phrase. >> is is very prevalent everywhere now with. everywhere. >> what can we do. >> but in a democratic even a complicated. democratic society like ours.

>> I think the answer comes back on us like. if there's something wrong either with. an individual policy in our system or. with the system itself. >> we're responsible. >> cuz who else is going to right yeah. >> I mean it's either the strong man. >> Mhm. >> Or it's us. And if it's us, if the. entire and and I would argue I have a. very different view of what it means to. be American than people like JD Vance. My view is what it means to be an. American has a lot to do with this civic. structure we created, this democratic.

structure we have. >> Go deeper into that. >> Well, one way to think of it is this. The fact that we have a word unamerican. >> Yeah. >> Which gets abused and and and and um. used as a weapon. But the fact that we. even have that word. >> is telling because I don't know what you. could do to be unan or un. >> and I think what it signals is we. believe that actually a certain set a. certain creed I mean the declaration.

right the things that are in there not. some ethnational affinity but the creed. is what makes America America. Of. course, we came out of a specific place. and and and have a specific story and. heritage and a certain land mass. obviously, but that's not what makes. America America. What makes America. America is our fidelity to this national. experiment in democracy, >> right? >> That we've been running for 249 years, >> right? And.

it follows from that that that all of us. just in as much as we were Americans. have some responsibility toward that in. a way that I think is just different. than the way you would say somebody in. any other or other countries I can think. of. >> you know uh relate to their country. Um. and so I I just think it it's too easy. of an out to say ah what can we do? Um. we're in charge like we the people. collectively. >> are in charge. What threat does the. strong man pose to those ideals? Like it. almost feels like everywhere we are.

spoken about a strong man, people have. voted for and and Tate to be a. president. >> Yeah, it's bad. And I think the threat. is. all of these commitments, all of these. freedoms that we care about, >> by the time everybody wakes up and sees. that they're gone, it's too late. And. this happens. I mean, when strong men. come to power in elections, when they. don't just emerge as figures, but then. actually win an election. Yeah. >> Very hard to get them out. >> Yeah. >> I mean, history has shown that again and. again and again.

>> And so I think the challenge especially. for an opposition is to do two things at. once. We have to talk about those. freedoms and that democratic commitment. itself. >> Yeah. >> And talk about the things that are a. little more immediate in people's lives. Because the other thing we have learned. definitely the hard way over the last. hundred years is that these. authoritarian systems are systematically. worse at taking care of your needs. At. the end of the day, they will not help. you be able to afford uh to to buy a. home. They will not help you get.

healthare. They will not deliver these. things as well because they don't have. to be responsive to you. >> They don't have to be responsive to you. >> But I think that misses the point of. what they're trying to do actually. >> Right. >> What do you mean? I hear what you're. saying, but the more I talk to people, the more. I realize that some of the allure of the. strong man, some of the allure of the. populist is not the fact that people. actually think they're going to fix it. >> Some people enjoy the fact that they're. going to break it for everyone. >> Do you get what I'm saying? >> So, there's people in South Africa,

there's people in the UK, there's people. in America, there's people in Brazil, there's people in wherever, where they. go like, "No, no, no, no, no. I don't. think that person's going to fix it.". But you know what I like? They're going. to break it. >> It's almost like being on their side. means you're in on the joke. >> Yeah. Because they go, "Look, I was left. behind. I was in that town that had uh. cars that were being, you know, it was a. manufacturing city. I was in that town. that had jobs. I was in that city that. had this. I was and I don't have it. No. one cares about me. No one looks at me.

The news only pops up when it's the next. election and they're going to ask my. opinion, but no one's here for me.". >> But now there's somebody who's going to. break all of it. and they go, "Look, I'm. already living in the trash.". >> Yeah. >> You're going to join me. >> And I think that's sometimes what we. forget. We we always think of as a as a. logical push. We go like, "This person's. not going to help." Then they're like, "Yeah, I'm already homeless. >> I already don't have healthare. I. already don't have a job. My wages are. already not keeping up." So, I would. like them to break it so that we're all. on the same page. And I I actually.

wonder if. >> that's something you look at. You know, when you talk about the Democrats now, there's a feeling that I hope you're. aware of where a lot of people, and this. isn't unique to to the United States, when I was in the UK and I was talking. to people who voted for the new. government now, they go, I mean, they're. useless. That's what they go. They go, we voted for this this guy and he has. Karma and here's this, but they're. useless. M. >> and the main thing that people say when. when I listen to them in different parts. of the world is they go it feels like.

liberals are selling an agenda that is. beautiful on paper but they're feckless. when they get into power. >> They'll tell you about healthcare. They'll tell you about education. They'll tell you about jobs. But when. they get in, they tell you about like, "Oh, you you can't just do this. overnight and it's so hard and it's this. and and then they'll also tell you. things like in America for instance, we. got to get the Republicans on board. We've got to get them on board. Obama, no, no, no. I don't want to do it. myself. I got to wait for Mitch. Mitch. has got to come on board, you know. Gotta get this thing. It's like, why are.

you waiting? >> Then when Donald Trump comes in, >> Donald Trump goes, I'm not waiting for. anybody. >> Yeah, >> I'm going to shut down the border the. way I said. Then they're like, you're. not allowed to. He's like, stop me. You. try and stop me. And he goes and he does. it. He goes, I'm doing trade. I'm doing. tariffs. You can't do tar. He's like, bring your courts. I'm going to do the. thing. >> And whether or not you support Donald. Trump or not, >> you can't deny that people see that and. go, >> it is possible. He does the thing that. he said he's going to do and it may not. have the effect that people have. promised and he may not help the people. he said he's going to promise and your.

taxes are gonna are going to. >> it creates the impression of being. decisive and. >> that's exactly what I mean and so I. wonder if like the Democrats internally. are you guys having a conversation about. how. >> there is a perception. >> that you just don't like do a thing it. it feels like you guys are very good at. like you know the homework side of it. >> he made everyone look like a bureaucrat. >> he did actually you're not wrong he did. make everyone look like a bureaucrat. Yeah. >> Yeah. I think we need to be able to. demonstrate how your life gets different. materially and rather quickly if we're. in charge instead of them.

>> And part of that standing up to what. they're doing that's wrong. It's like. you are going to lose your healthare or. pay more in your premiums. Like now. people are paying more in their premiums. now because turns out he doesn't care. about you and he's taken the money and. he's given it to the wealthy. >> But it's not enough to just point out. poke holes in what they're doing. We. have to be able to say, "Look, if you. put us in and you give us enough. political room to. implement this agenda, here's what we're. going to deliver for you." And I think. it's a good list. Like the list of. things we want to deliver like higher.

wages, more housing, paid family leave. This is something every country has. except us. >> Wow. >> But let's let's pause on like a few. Let's just pause on the housing one for. instance. One of the criticisms that I. think a lot of people correctly level at. the Democrats is they go, there are. states where Democrats are ruling from. top to bottom. Why do they have some of. the worst housing crisises in America? Like why do they have some of the. highest house homeless populations? Why. do they, you know what I mean? So it's. like I think that's the thing that a lot.

of people butt up against is they go. >> I no one is against housing. No one will. say I don't want housing for people. No. one is against. But I think the question. people will ask is they'll go yes beyond. the promise. Why does it seem like and. again this is why I'm not in all the. states. >> but some might ask you they might go. like but but Pete Buddhaj why does it. seem like. >> the Democrats aren't able to do this. thing in the state where they're running. all of the all the levers. Why can't. they get housing going? Why can't they.

get better schools going? Why like. what's your response to them in that. situation? >> There's so many there's so many. different answers that are all true and. that are important. One is that yes, like sometimes we just get in our own. way. I mean, I saw that with a kind of a. kind of a proceduralism, a kind of a. fetish for for process that. >> all these processes that are there for. good reason, but the result has been a. federal government. I felt this when I. was trying to build things around the. country as a as transportation. secretary. >> The process is more set up to. stop a project from going wrong.

>> than to make sure the project happens. Period. >> Oh, okay. >> Right. >> Okay. Okay. So, there's so many checks. that by the end it's taken so many years. that it's doubled in cost and you can't. get it done. >> Now, sometimes we were able to get. through that. Other times it was really. tough. So, that's real. >> Um, but another way to answer the. question is to point to the places where. we are getting results or did get. results either locally or nationally. And I think because we are doing a. healthy process of questioning some of. our own policies and and and um habits. sometimes missing the fact that we also.

need to vigorously defend the things. that we got right and that's true at the. local level where you have um Denver. where there's a mayor Mike Johnson who. has gotten extraordinary results on. housing. >> Yeah. in a way that mixes compassion for. people experiencing homelessness with. the need to make sure that it is safe. and clean on the streets. >> and expanding just the affordability and. access to housing. >> or. >> DC had a great. more houses per capita than Texas was. building. >> Um or on something like safety, you.

know, uh place like Boston. Yeah. where. got the low one of the reasons it didn't. work when Republicans tried to bring in. Michelle Woo to a committee and kind of. beat her up on public safety was the. lowest murder rate in 75 years. So, she. can explain like here's how we got that. done. But there's also a third set of. answers that's also true that has to do. with all the ways that uh when Democrats. came to power, they were still stopped. by Republicans, right? And the question. is, is the answer to that that you just. blow through the way Trump is? Well, the.

truth is no Democrat in my lifetime has. amassed that kind of power. Um, >> what do you mean? What do you mean by. that? >> Well, first of all, the total power over. government, right? Because the courts. and the Congress are unwilling to. constrain him even when they know he's. doing something wrong. >> Okay, got it. >> Right. >> So, so just randomly saying like Trump. has everyone in line really. It's not. not just amassing the power, but he has. he has the power in line with him. >> Absolutely. Yeah. >> Right. The problem is you say that and.

then it starts to sound attractive to. some people like great all we need is to. do that on our side. We just need to. have somebody uh some Democrat who's. willing to break all the laws and have. total control over you know all. government and then we'll do our stuff. and that's not the right answer because. sometimes the rule of law is part of. what we're trying to protect itself. >> in addition to the things that it that. it might shape or stop. >> But look, the appeal of the strong man. is always I'm going to get results. I. mean Mussolini, you know, I'm going to. make the trains run on time, which by. the way, importantly, he didn't. uh he. did not succeed in making the trains run. on time, but he built that reputation.

>> Um. >> and so the other thing we have to do is. really talk in terms of concrete results. and show that they're related. If you. have a corrupt uh government, if you. have a corrupt president, >> Yeah. who's making money on crypto or. accepting jumbo jets from Amirs or. whatever it is that actually winds up. being related to the fact that your. healthcare premium just went up because. it means he's not accountable to anybody. and he can just do things that make that. happen. It's related to the fact you're. under 65 and you're going in for a COVID.

shot and you can't get one. Like I. actually think that's the related, you. know, obviously in the in the immediate. sense that's because RFK uh did that uh. changed the eligibility for for for. people, but in a way that's related to. an administration that doesn't think it. has to answer to anybody. >> Sure. >> And an administration that doesn't have. to answer to anybody is also going to. leave us weak and unprepared in the face. of the things that we're actually uh. that are going to change everything. This is where I think about AI all the. time. M. >> like we have an education secretary.

who has given speeches referring to what. she calls A1. >> which means she's unaware that the. acronym is AI. >> oh no. >> that's she's. reading a speech and says like. >> when A1 comes into. >> we got to make sure that we're dealing. with like the implications of A1 in our. schools something like that. >> secretary. >> which means she doesn't know what that. it's AI which means she doesn't know. that it stands for artificial. intelligence which means she's unaware. of the most important development. affecting US education since the. invention of the pencil.

>> and I think that's related to the. corruption uh of the president because. in a system of healthy checks and. balances uh the moment that happened the. president would be shamed into replacing. that person. >> uh they would be. >> right. >> so these things are related the. challenge for my part is to talk about. them at the same time. >> it seems like an. not a not a not an unscalable mountain. But it, you know, it's it's it's so. interesting to hear these things. Here's.

what's here's what's always got me is. when I look at South Africa and its. issues and many small smaller countries. in terms of like their GDP and and what. they actually have going, I go, man, I. understand why this developing nation is. experiencing what they're experiencing. >> What always shocks me is how America. will have third world problems with the. first world budgets. >> Mhm. >> That always blows my mind. Like I'm. shocked that the issues Americans have. are the same issues that South Africans. have with the budget that America has.

>> I think there's one word that explains. most of it, if not all of it, and the. word is inequality. So there's so much. research that shows even if you take two. countries that have the same average. GDP. >> Yeah. >> The same general level of development, >> the one that has a higher level of. inequality will have more. >> will have worse outcomes on everything. from violence to public health even on. average. >> And you mentioned Robert Putnham uh.

famously wrote bowling alone. uh he. wrote another book, co-wrote another. book that's less famous called The. Upswing, which basically the whole book. is written around uh a chart. that is the the level of inequality in. this country. And you can see all of. these it kind of if you start the clock. in the 40s or even in the 60s, you see a. comparatively more equal society. >> and then you see it go more and more. unequal until you have this explosion of. inequality that we're living with now.

And you can correlate all these other. developing world problems that we seem. to have here around social instability. and violence and health. All of them. >> get worse pretty much on the same. trajectory. >> as the inequality gets worse, >> right? >> And then of course it becomes. self-reinforcing because the more you. have that that economic inequality, the. more you start to have inequality in. power. >> Yep. >> And that can be used to reinforce the. conditions that lead to the economic. inequality. And this is yet another.

reason why I think we're not paying. enough attention to AI. Everybody's. paying attention to AI as as tech. >> Yeah. >> But I think we need to pay more. attention to AI as a question of. political economy because it can do one. of two things. It can either create so. much wealth that there is enough to go. around and all of us could have a 4-day. work week and more money in our pocket. and it could alleviate inequality, >> right? both by finding the right way to. share the the dollars and cents wealth. that it creates and by taking the the.

benefits of it in terms of like. a level of tutoring that up until now. has only been available to a wealthy kid. and now you just get it for. >> that's the dream, right? That's the. dream. >> That's one way things could unfold. >> The other way things could unfold. >> is it makes these inequalities of wealth. and power even more extreme. It. concentrates the wealth into the hands. of the people who have the means not. just to start these tech companies but. to own the physical plant, you know, the. computers and the and and the land and.

the energy that goes into them. >> Yes. >> And they're making all the money. Uh and. you know more uh wealthy and established. and powerful players have more control. over the AI and it unfolds that way. Like one of those two things is going to. happen and the decision over which of. those two things happen in my opinion is. mostly not a technology decision. It's a. political decision set of policy. decisions about what we do next. >> Yeah. It's uh it's similar to what they. discussed a while ago in it was either.

in Sweden or it was in Finland, one of. the two. And they basically discussed. taxing robots in a factory. >> And people at the time, you know, especially outside of those countries, like that's crazy. How can you tax a. robot? How? And they went, "No, no, nothing is crazy here." Because. remember, we have to go down to the. fundamental principle of what tax is. trying to do and how it's trying to do. it. >> Yes. >> Right. And when you start thinking of. laws through that lens, you start to. realize that every law is crazy until.

it's a law. >> Yes. >> Mhm. >> Do you know what I mean? >> It's a wild idea. >> Yeah. Like even the idea of weekends. wasn't a thing. >> You used to work every single day of the. week and then at some point unions. fought and were like, "Man, we got to. take days off." Now the idea that you. wouldn't work that you would work seven. days a week is now the crazy idea. And. so I think I think that's that's the. question is like what are we able to do. that seems crazy now that could define. the new normal tomorrow? And that sort. of makes me think of all the the the the. people running for office in some way,

shape or form who are Democrats who are. very progressive and are doing really. well. Right? New York City right now, Zoran Mandani, like you can say what you want about the. feasibility or not of his plans and. ideas cuz everyone can poke holes in. everyone's feasibilities, right? >> But the the movement behind him. >> Yeah. people on the ground, black, white, young, old, you name it, saying, "Well, not rich, but everyone else. going, [laughter]. this guy.". >> Yeah.

>> I like what he's trying to do. >> Yeah. >> And and you see them mobilized behind. him. You know, you you see. >> the Democratic Party having having some. of its lowest approval ratings in years. despite not being in power, which is. rare in America. Bernie Sanders bringing. out some of the biggest crowds he's ever. brought out, you know, and and we we we. talked to him about it on the podcast, and I was wondering like from your. perspective as somebody who's been in an. administration has been very close to. like the upper workings of the of the. Democratic party, is there an internal. reckoning with where the establishment.

Democrats sit? >> Yeah. >> And where it seems like the voters of. the Democrats because it seems like. there's a big disconnect there. Like. Andrew Cuomo for me is the worst example. of it. You say, "I'm a Democrat. You're. a Democrat. Okay, let's go into a. primary to see who the voters want." The. voters say, "We want Zoran Mandani.". >> You then go, "All right, I guess I'm. going to run independently.". >> But it's like, wait, wait, what do you. mean independent?

So now you're an independent supported. by Trump. Were you ever a Democrat then? >> Like like what when you when you're. working, you know, internally and when. you're having these conversations, is. there a reckoning with where the. Democratic party is and where its voters. are? >> Yeah, I think so. I mean, look, to be. clear, there's not some like official. meeting of all the Democrats that like. or if there is, I'm not invited. But. >> [laughter]. >> um uh so I think these these things. happen in like a more diffuse way. But.

yeah, I think that conversation has to. happen and I think it's it's playing out. right now because there's a lot of kind. of muscle memory in the Democratic party. about like, well, this happens so we got. to do that and here's what we're used. to. >> But I think what you're describing of. going back to first principles and. saying, okay, it doesn't have to be this. way. What if we start from scratch? And. I think the appeal of Madani and I agree. with some of his stuff and I disagree. with some of his stuff. But the point is. he has aroused a sense of hope by saying.

we can solve these problems. >> with big ideas. >> And I the best leaders I see in the. party, many of whom are on the left, but. many of whom are are more moderate. It's. not about it's not only about how left. you are. >> Yeah. >> But they have a level of imagination. about what needs to happen that gets. back to the first principles. See, the. the left likes to think that we're the. intellectual ones, but I actually. believe the right over the last like 50. years has been much more systematic. >> definitely.

>> about connecting like big ideas, bold. ideas, sometimes crazy ideas. through this process that gets them into. the mainstream, finds politicians. willing to to uh give them a try, pushes. pushes the Overton window, pushes the. political system. >> until eventually that happens. And. that's why they're able to sometimes I. mean demolishing the right to choose in. this country that was a 50-year project. Yeah. >> On their part, right? >> The stuff in project 2025, it wasn't. just a laundry list of crazy policy. proposals. It was the result of a whole.

kind of apparatus doing very big deep. thinking. Most of which of course I. think is horribly wrong. But. >> they were really thinking about these. things in a very basic way. >> It feels like they have a room and then. the Democrats don't. >> Yeah. I mean I think they are more. >> like in a weird way. You just said. there's not one room where all the. Democrats meet and but it seems like the. Republicans were like, "Hey, let's meet. in a room. >> and have like this collective idea that. moves us." But before we move on, give. me an idea of like what you agree with. on Zor and what you don't agree with. I'd love to know cuz you were a mayor, you know, so you actually ran a city. So.

like give me something where you go. like, "Oh, I agree with that.". >> Yeah. So I think uh I mean first of all. just the the focus on affordability like. we have to prioritize that and make sure. that that you can afford to live in this. city makes a ton of sense. I think the. stuff he's talked about uh getting uh. mental health resources out to crisis. situations, I don't think that means you. get rid of the police. I think it means. that you understand that the police are. not the best. >> uh uh it's not even fair to the police. to expect them to be the the kind of. first resort responder. >> Same reason police don't fight fires.

It's like Yeah. Like it's different. Mental health crime is a different thing. >> completely. And I think he's shown an. understanding of that. Right. Other. things I'm kind of skeptical of the like. government grocery store concept. What? So you see this is what I'm intrigued. by. What is it about that? I'd love to. know. >> because there are sets of things that. should be done by government. Um and. then there are things that I think. should be done by the private sector. Okay. >> And uh running a grocery store is a good. example. I I think the government needs. to come in where there are these big. collective action problems or found like.

>> like basic research good example. So my. favorite example of this is is is the. iPhone to talk about the deliver the the. division of labor. Like. >> I don't think the federal government. could ever like design and sell a. smartphone that you and I would want to. buy. Like I think only a company could. do that. >> to drive that level of innovation and. use the competitive pressures of. capitalism to fashion a product uh in.

that way that eventually becomes. affordable for people. That's just. that's what companies do well. But. >> if the federal government hadn't. literally invented the internet, which. no company or even consortium of. companies could have done, like that. took taxpayer funded public research to. do. >> Mhm. >> If there's no internet, there's no. smartphone. So the areas where I believe. government lean needs to lean in more. areas where there's some there's some.

reason to think that it will only work. if government leans in. I think that's. true to a point in health insurance. Um, I'm not somebody who believes we should. abolish any private health insurance, but I do think there needs to be a. public opport a public option, a public, we called it Medicare for all who want. it. Like not Medicare whether you want. it or not, but like especially if people. are going to keep changing jobs. Like. you need benefits that that aren't just. dependent on your company that you work. for, right? >> Um, but I'm not somebody who believes.

like every hospital and every health. insurance system should be somebody who. works for the government. other. situations. Um, and this is why I was an. aggressive regulator of airlines. I. don't think we should have a. government-run airline. Some countries. do. I don't think that works. Um, but I. also don't think the market for airlines. is exactly like a healthy, normal, competitive market. Um, it's got huge. barriers to entry. It's got uh all these. things that help to explain why you only. have a handful of airlines. So the. answer to me was okay this should be.

done by private companies but the. government should very energetically. lean in and regulate those companies so. that they can't abuse their customers. >> Mhm. >> And my sense is that when it gets to. groceries which is a highly competitive. and very very low profit margin. business. Yeah, >> you're not going to find some like. market inefficiency because like. grocerrossers are. >> uh have these like monopoly, especially. in the city context, right? Where there.

are so many different um. >> so many different competitors. >> What I do believe in is is is making. sure you have the right kind of subsidy. structure so people can afford school. can afford food. >> I just don't know that I would route. that through the plumbing of a. government owned and operated store. But. look, he wins. He gets the opportunity. to like demonstrate. Again, what I loved. about being mayor was some of ideas were. popular in my city, some of them were. unpopular in my city. I was willing to. attach myself to certain ideas and live. and die by whether they worked. And the. great thing is you actually get a chance.

in local government to show versus that. this is going to work and and he can. humble his critics if he's right and do. these things. [music]. >> Don't press anything. We've got more. what now after this. >> [music]. >> It's funny. I I I. think there's a part of me that agrees. with you and there's a part of me that. disagrees with you in terms of the. government and its ability.

>> I think of it through the lens of. I don't know, let's start with some of. the bigger utilities. You look at the. United Kingdom, like the railway. >> Mhm. I don't think I'm crazy when I say that. the UK's railway system has become more. expensive, less affordable, less. predictable, less, you know what I mean? >> When [snorts] it became privatized, >> agree. >> And I'm not an economics major, but from.

everything I've read, fundamentally, if. you look at what economics tells you, you know, you're trying to make as much. money as possible. You're trying to get. the profits that you can. The argument. is at some point it gets down to zero. And I mean you like really you're a. brain in this world. I've you know I've. seen your your resume and everything. you've studied but it feels like. corporations and the way they exist is. sort of at odds with the public good. So. let's go back to the iPhone, right? >> I don't believe that a government.

couldn't make an iPhone. I actually. don't believe that. I think governments. and the way we see them now could not. make an iPhone because to your point and. what we said earlier they've become. bloated, they've become slow, they've. become corrupt, etc. >> But I don't think to me I go like I. don't think that means a government. could not make an iPhone. I just think. it means that the way some of the. governments around the world operate now. they would not. Right? So here's an. example. Let's look at Brazil right now. >> And this could change. That's why I say. I'm not an expert but this could change. Brazil right now on a government level.

>> has rolled out a digital payment um. system. >> that works in the country, right? And. basically what they've done is they've. made it so that everybody in the country. >> can have a bank account just having a. phone. We've got similar products in in. South Africa and in in Southern Africa. >> uh Empessa and Nigeria and those places. >> Yeah. But this is not run by a company. It's the government. And what they did. is they said, "We are going to be your. bank and your banker. We're going to.

make sure that you have access to. banking." Which is one of the worst. things you can do to a person when. they're not banked. They just kicked out. of a system, >> right? >> They said, "We're going to make sure. that doesn't happen to you. You sell. things on the beach. You have a little, you know, you sell food, whatever it is, you now have a bank. You now can build. credit. You now have something that you. can work towards. But we will manage. that as a government." And the most. impressive thing that they've done is. they've basically made it that almost. every single transaction is free. >> You pay me, I pay you. That doesn't cost.

you anything because they've come to. realize, and we should all know this, >> the costs that a lot of banks tell us. about are basically false. You know what. I mean? Now, I'm not saying they were. always false. There was a time when it. cost a lot of money to send money to. somebody else about But we've got. systems now that can do these things for. you, right? But now because of what Brazil has done, they've created a whole new market. And. now the legacy players who are. companies, they have a choice to make. >> They either get in line and offer a. competitive deal or.

>> they're just not going to have. customers. >> When I look at what companies have done, look at look at South Africa and most. parts of Africa, right? We pay some of. the highest data rates in the world. And we've seen time and time again with. every study that's done, whether it's, you know, the World Trade Organization. or the UN, >> people who do not have access to the. internet, >> Yeah. >> have exponentially less upward mobility. cuz it's the it's the world we live in. now. >> But then who sets the price of the data? Who chooses how much you pay to connect.

to the internet? It's a private company. And the government can say, "Oh, it. should be within. It should be within.". >> But we've seen what companies can do. You've seen what airlines can do. yourself. You know what I mean? And so I. don't think that governments can't do it. and I think governments should be in the. business of doing it and doing it. properly. >> because New York for me as an example. I I try and ask these questions to. random people just to see what they'll. tell me. But one of the most interesting. answers a grocery store owner gave me in. New York was he said I don't think Zoran.

Mandani's local grocerers are going to. do well as a business in any way. But he. said, "But I do like that if the. government becomes the owner of grocery. stores, they can step into the fray of. grocery stores and pricing and. monopolies in terms of like um. >> the suppliers.". >> And they said they can fight an outsized. fight that we can't as grocery store. owners. Yeah. >> You as Eugene own a grocery store. You. as Mayor Pete own a grocery store, you. can't really do much. But if the. government owns a grocery store, the.

same way if the government owns. >> the purchasing power, >> the purchasing power, but also the power. power, >> good luck screwing over a government and. getting away with it in that way. >> You know what I mean? If the government. says we're going to buy drugs from. pharmaceutical companies, >> they can't come in with the same like, oh, your insulin costs. No, the. government goes like, what are you. doing? >> And and that's that's what I mean by. like the feasibility. I think sometimes. we might think of it as can the. government run a business or not run a. business. Well, I don't care if a. government can run a business for.

profit, but I do like the government. being involved in an industry so that. the industry can't just run off and go. crazy. You know what I mean? >> I I think to me a lot of it has to do. with the kind of business or the kind of. industry. >> Oh, yeah. Completely. Don't get me. wrong. >> So, and maybe I think you and I might. read the grocery case differently. because I'm just thinking about so much. of the business is about engaging like. all of these different suppliers to get. all these different things on the shelf. and the the way supply chains work and. the way retail works and then the. margins being as tiny as they are. >> Yes. But to your point, I mean, an. example that's not unlike what you're. describing uh with with the payment.

system is something I've seen cities do. that I do think makes sense, >> which is creating a municipal competitor. to internet service providers. >> Yeah, this is exactly. >> I think Chattanooga was the first place. to do it. >> And it turns out. >> even just the existing ISPs, their. prices magically come down the moment. that they threat they they face some. kind of competition, right? But that's. because there's that local monopoly. then we are no no then I think we are. close to. >> I'm not saying like government can't do. well in a tech context I'm just looking. for the things that are more like.

networks or platforms or utilities or. something where you really just. >> cannot expect market forces to do much. good. >> right. >> versus the ones where you we have more. experience with like competition driving. prices down and and you know um like I. found it wild that during co the. government couldn't pay people in. America into their bank accounts. >> that was that was just wild to discover. about America I was like wait what. >> yeah and look sometimes the answer to. these things is also related to. corporate power. So another thing that. the Trump administration has killed is. direct file. You know the last.

administration was working it was kind. of a pilot. Some people had it some. people didn't but it was growing where. you could just file your own taxes seems. like a pretty basic thing. Most people. in most developed countries can do this. You go. >> tax developing South Africa you can file. your own taxes developing even. >> and here you can't. Is that because we. the American people couldn't figure out. a way to make that possible? No. It's. because there are companies that make a. lot of money as the middleman. >> Yeah. who figured out how to block. getting that done, right? And they're. they're having their way in this. administration. >> So, yeah, I'm I'm I'm not going to be.

the person to say that like innovation. only happens if you let the private. sector do anything it wants. >> Yeah. >> I just I think I draw the line on that. balance a little bit differently. >> No, no, I understand what you're saying. I I think you clarified it. Let's talk a. little bit about um the world, the. geopolitics, and as as we wrap this up, I want to I want to know where you see. yourself moving in the future. >> As you know, Pete looks at the future of. America, and America looks at itself in. the world. >> There's no denying that Donald Trump has. completely upended how America sees the. world and how the world sees America. >> Yeah.

>> You know, allies are no longer like ally. allies. >> Yeah. >> You know, countries like India are on. like a blacklist. Brazil's on a. blacklist because they are prosecuting. somebody who tried to stage a coup. Canada is always, you know, in an. adversarial relationship or a moment. with the it it it just feels like. America isn't the, you know, that rock. that it once proclaimed itself to be. And I think how many countries saw it? When you look at the geopolitical. landscape right now,

what do you think. the future of America is if this carries. on for the next like four years? Like if. if it just keeps going the way it's. going, what do you think it does to. America that Americans don't realize? >> And what do you think it like how how do. you think it affects the world in a way. that the world hasn't yet thought of? I. mean, I think it's going to take a. lifetime to even in a best case. scenario, it will take a lifetime to. establish some of the trust that has.

been blown up uh between other countries. in this country by the Trump. administration. And and I also I think we have to face. the fact that the the whole world system. that we have all inherited has been. showing its age for some time. Yeah. like this emerged out of the the power. dynamics and the values that were most. uh prominent or or or um had their. greatest moment of privacy immediate. primacy immediately after World War II.

>> Mhm. >> Right. >> And like the last of the people who. experienced World War II as adults are. are passing out of uh uh out of this. world right now. Like we're just in a. very different. >> world. >> world. And so it's another example of a realm. where I don't think we're saying like. let's just try to get Trump out, come. in, and stitch back together all of. these systems and alliances and. international institutions the way they. used to work and hope that'll get us. through another 80 years.

>> Yeah. >> Um [clears throat]. I think the future is one where we. reconnect with the. >> importance of values as well as. interests in American policy. And that's. part of what I think is at stake for the. rest of the world. So my view is. leadership matters. Leadership by. people, but also leadership by. countries. And somebody will be leading. the way things unfold for the next 5, 10, 20 years in the world. And I really.

want that not to be people like Putin or. people like Xiinping. >> I want that to develop on terms. It's. not that I want the world to look like. and think like America. But I think. there are the val the American values. that are most worth defending. are most worth defending because they. also express universal values. I think. it was the most credible thing about. what we did do when we set up the. institutions we did like the UN um in in. that that period. Um so what does it.

actually look like? I mean, we can't be. we we have this America first mantra, but it's really kind of like an America. alone. >> Yeah. >> I would like to see a vision that's. about America in first place. Meaning. America strives to compete and outdo. every other country and which means we. care about what the other countries are. doing and when they're ahead of us on. something, we try to learn from them, catch up and get back in first place. Um, but it's not by having our it's not.

by stepping on people's faces as we go. because that really does amount to. America alone and in ways that we can't. even guess sitting here in 2025. >> Yeah. >> Like that will make every American less. safe. I think. let's say you were president. and you're stepping into the White House. is post Trump there's been another. election. >> things have gone well let's say you're. president and and you look at this world.

that lies out there. >> I won't ask you like sort of what you. would do and there's policy and things. change and whatever what I'm what I'm. what I found myself myself most. interested in is. does Does America and do American. leaders. ever think about how to grapple with the. world that they have created that. they're now f fighting against? And the. reason I ask it is like this. Like Putin. is a great example.

You can't talk about Vladimir Putin. without talking about how Putin becomes. Putin. [clears throat] And you can't. talk about how Putin becomes Putin. without looking at how Russia the way we. know it becomes Russia. You can't talk. about how Russia becomes Russia without. talking about how American. when you look at the Cold War and how. America played it. >> A lot of it was like bullying in a way. that didn't bring Russia along. And then. you look at like, you know, the G20 and.

you look at all of these decisions that. America made and you're like, "Ooh, doesn't seem like America made a lot of. the best decisions to bring Russia. along." Right? Cuz America at the time. was so paranoid about communism. >> It it cast aside all of its values. >> You know, America was like, "We'll give. anyone money anywhere in the world if. they're going to help us fight. communism. We'll prop up dictators. We. will overthrow leaders as long as it. stops communism." And it's like, "Oh, well, if you're going to give up your. values when it suits you, then are they. your values?" And and and so like that's.

one example, you know. Um, another one I. think of in the world is I go, you know, we we talk about like issues. Now, I was. thinking the other day, I was like, America doesn't have a particularly good. track record of sort of like helping the. the movements that society would agree. are the movements that are worth. helping. Like apartheite was a good. example. I'm not saying you were there, by the way. I'm not pointing at you like. you did it. >> Um, >> no, but like I was thinking the other. day, I was like America didn't do a good. job during apartheite.

>> Yeah. It's not like America was like, "We're going to help you." No. When when. aparttheid was fully in like in full. force, America was like, "Yep, seems. pretty good to us." They welcomed South. African leaders. >> None of their visas were blocked. None. of them were restricted. No sanctions. America was one of the last to even like. entertain the idea of sanctions, right? >> And then when aparttheid ended, the. Clinton administration, just so we're. clear, this is not like a Trump or. anything. The Clinton administration. gave out thousands of visas.

>> Yeah. >> To white South Africans. >> only. >> only. >> Mhm. >> To help them escape, I guess, because. they were like, what's going to happen. to them? But it's like, wait, wait, wait. You were rescuing the oppressors. >> That's a weird one. You like you, >> the Titanic is sinking and you fly in. and you rescue the iceberg. >> Like, wait, what just happened here? >> That was good. I was so so so the iceberg cuz. [laughter].

>> see what you did there. >> No, but I mean like. >> I think I think of it in in all of these. instances. I I go like even now with. like Israel Palestine. I'm like, man, you know, week one after October 7th, people are going, well, you know, Israel, I mean, they've got to defend. week 10, well, week 100. And then people. are like, man, at what point? And then. like most recently, we see a strike that. happens in Qatar. And we don't know the. inner workings of things, so I'm not. going to assume anything. But I but I wonder if there's like a.

misalignment. there between how America portrays. itself. >> and how America how America acts in in. the world. You know, like even World War. II is an example. America for a long. time was like, "Ah, man, that's none of. our business, >> right? >> That's none of our business.". >> Yeah. >> People were like, "Yeah, but these the. Jews are being persecuted." America's. like, "Yeah, but that's none of our. business.". >> And then when Paul Pearl Harbor happens, America goes like, "All right, now it's. our business.". >> Right. And now again, please don't get me. wrong. I'm not diminishing America's. contribution in the fights for.

democracies time and time again, but I. wonder if as a president, let's say, you. would step in and would you be able to. grapple with the inconsistency in how. America applies its values in and around. the world in fighting for freedom or not. fighting for it? I think not because. we're Americans, but because we are a. people, we are inconsistent in our. affinities and our the stories we tell. ourselves and the commitments we come. to. I also think that we can be.

imperfect in our fidelity to our ideas. at home or abroad. and those ideas are still the right. ideas and they're still the ones that. ought to guide us. And I think that's. true at home as we question like how. much is our democracy even a democracy. right now. It doesn't mean we're on the. wrong track trying to be one. It just. means we're further away from one than. we wish. And I think that's true for. America's conduct around the world. All. of that is definitely the experience of. America and the countries that have had.

to deal or the peoples who have had to. deal with America, >> right, >> as at best a very flawed uh bearer of. the flag of of of liberty and uh and. freedom around the world. And at the. same time, I think that our belief in that, however. imperfect, however we haven't always. been true to it at home and abroad, is. the most important fact about us. And so. I think leadership in America has to do. the the work of trying to center us in.

that while we're being buffeted by all. these other things. So there were a lot. of folks who were queasy about various. countries uh in in the course of the. cold war that we supported. >> but really believed it was still somehow. the right thing to do for reasons of. hard security. I think a lot of that was. wrong but um that balance nobody can. claim that that's ever going to be easy. But what we no longer have is the excuse. of not knowing how it can go wrong.

>> Mhm. Mhm. That's true. So the next. president or just the next generation of. American leadership arrives with the. benefit of a lot of hindsight. And I say. this belonging to the generation that. was really shaped by. 9/11 and also by the Iraq war. I mean. that definitely shaped my understanding. of politics. Also shaped my life because. I wound up serving in the Afghanistan. war. Um, and honestly that was another example, right, where for 911 it was the first. time for a lot of people that a chain of. events had happened somewhere else.

actually was visited upon us concretely. and shook everybody out of this idea. that that was just, you know, that that. we weren't going to be pulled into the. consequences of what was happening. abroad. Some of which we had had a hand. in getting to be the way it was because. it's a world that we made. I would like to believe if we get it. right, if we have the right fidelity to. the values that actually matter, we do. this next time around if people are. still returning our calls as a country.

with more of a partnership like more of. an actual partnership with other states. and peoples that are sincerely committed. to those same values and that around. that we can build an architecture of. values but also security. >> Yeah, >> that that actually works. But that's. going to be really, really hard. And. it's going to be that much harder. because the level of trust people have. for America has been laid so low. >> by what people are seeing from both our. conduct toward other countries and just. the way things are going at home right.

now. >> Yeah. Because when let's say when I look. at a situation like exactly what you're. saying, looking at the relationship with. others, other countries, their. representatives and their people, again, I don't know the inner workings. So I'm. only saying what I've read and what I've. seen. You have a delegation of host of. negotiators. who are in Qatar, right? They're there. to negotiate whatever it is, but they. negotiate. >> Israel kills them. Bam. And says, "Yeah,

we killed them." There's not even like a. I'm say they said no, we killed them. >> I found myself going just on a basic. level and maybe I'm a very stupid simple. person. It's possible. I went, >> if you kill negotiators, >> isn't that the opposite of wanting to. negotiate? Like, >> you know what I mean? That's. >> like this is that's kicking the guy in. the pit in Sparta. It's like, yeah, that's the guy who's come to deliver the. message and you won't get peace without. >> Yeah. And so I was thinking to myself, I. was going like, okay, so if if you if.

you are in power, if you're a leader in. in that type of situation, at what point. does an ally stop being an ally or how. do you define the allyship of another. country? Is it when. >> their interests are completely aligned. with yours? Or is it when their actions. are completely unaligned with yours? You. know, like how far would Israel have to. go for you as a president to say, >> I can't say that you're our ally. anymore. But I think what happens and you know. that uh happened as we're taping like I. think that's just so I don't know uh all.

of the uh we're still learning what. happened in that strike but everything. you just said makes sense to me about. what it means to blow up negotiators. and it feels like every few days or. every day there's another example of. this. >> right. >> so I think the job of leadership is to. say okay if this is our ally or whatever. you want to call it we are most. important country to that country. >> Yes, >> we are the most important country to. Israel. >> Right. What does it actually look like.

to draw a line between saying we have a. foundational commitment. >> to this country being able to defend. itself from people who are committed to. its annihilation which I I think is the. bedrock of the US relationship with. Israel to have fidelity to that and also. say. when you do certain things. we're not going to sponsor you to do. that and to say as your most important. ally friend sponsor whatever we want. call it. There's going to be more than.

pretty please. Like we are going to find. ways to shape your behavior. I think that's what leadership needs to. do. And I don't know what I don't know. who the next leader in the US will be or. for that matter the next leader of of. Israel or what kind of leadership the. Palestinians or the Arab states will. have. And I actually think the further. this goes, the more important the. ultimate role of Arab states will be in. whether there is any form of a two-state. solution that's even possible or. whatever is about to happen next. But I.

do think that is an example where there. are certain things that we still bear. fidelity to because there are reasons. not just tactical strategic reasons but. moral reasons why the United States has. decided from the beginning to be there. to make sure that a country whose. neighbors wanted annihilated is not. annihilated. [gasps]. And of course that is born out of the. circumstances that were present in the. world at the time that the Jews sought. that homeland. And at the same time say just because.

that is true and however unshakable that. is this is not on we're not on board. with this and we're going to think of. more than just uh uh saying this is. unfortunate but actually do something to. change it. It it's so difficult and and. you know why it's so difficult is. because humans bear the brunt like. civilians bear the brunt. >> of the decisions of a few men just. generally speaking. >> as I've been you know watching what's.

happening in the now I I like to go back. and try and read different times to see. if there's any correlations or any. >> anything that gives me a certain insight. because when things are happening now. they're happening now you have to react. to them you don't have perspective you. don't have hindsight and sometimes when. you go back you read something and it's. it's a lot more clear. You never know. what fully happened but you have a. better idea. I found it particularly. interesting that a lot of the language. the US uses now with Israel is similar. to the language it used with South. Africa during apartheite. >> It would say I mean we we have to let.

these people defend themselves and we. have to assure ourselves that the. Africana is safe and do do you know what. I mean? >> It's interesting how. >> defending the implied threat. against these oppressors was more. important than defending the actual. threat that was happening to the people. at the time. And I that's something that. I think and that's where funny enough I. think when we come back to voters and. people. >> when you look at like the Democratic. base. >> I'm not saying Kamala Harris lost or. didn't lose because of one specific.

thing. >> but there's no denying there was a huge. swath of the voting population. Democratic voters especially young. people who said. >> yo man we don't want our country we. don't want to be aiming in this. direction. This is not what we're. aiming. This is not what we see America. doing. And it was interesting that the. Democratic leadership didn't seem to. come on board with that. It felt like. that was the 7030 split, but just within. a Democratic party. >> where they were like, "No, >> we're not on board with this. completely." How do you.

maybe bridge the divide is the wrong the. wrong phrase, but how do you how do you. make sense of that disconnect, you know, where. >> is it because young voters or voters in. the Democratic party don't know as much. as the people the leaders do or is it. because you see the situation. differently and not I'm saying you. collectively. >> Well, look, I think part of it is what. what was going on during the time that. your understanding of these events was. formed, right? So, if you're our age or.

younger, definitely if you're the the. the Gen Z people who are watching this, including, by the way, many Jews, young. Jews who are uh watching this saying, "I. want no part of of that.". >> You have only experienced Israel as the. dominant regional hegeimon. uh and especially in the last two years. where they have decapitated or neutered. those entities that are most threatening. to them right now whether we're talking. about Iran whether we're talking about.

uh Hamas's military capabilities whether. we're talking about Hzbollah right. >> so you see this extremely powerful. country where there I think is a. generation of democratic leaders who. only knew or largely knew Israel as the. underdog M uh where this wasn't just. some like off-stage thing that was. invoked as why and by the way Netanyahu. skillfully does this invoke these. off-stage threats as something that will. legitimize anything including things.

like starvation that absolutely nothing. can legitimize. Um but back then that was a real this. was not like a theoretical thing. Now, I. would say even today it's not a. theoretical thing, but it's obviously. more off stage because of the power that. Israel has exerted to not only defend. itself, but to do things that I think. most observers, including people who. care about Israel's future, would say. are not helping you defend yourself. It's not helping the hostages. >> And it's not only. incredibly destructive of life when you.

have starvation or these these bombings. that that we're seeing or so many of the. other things that are going on. Uh but. it's also destructive of a moral fiber. >> Yeah. >> That has connected. these two countries. >> That really is as important as the. strategic relationship. And that could be the most lethal thing. of all, >> right? >> Because it turns the relationship into a. partisan cause or something that there's. a generational split. And uh and that is.

un just catastrophically bad, I think. But to get to where your question began, I think. the next round of American leadership. will just be about what will it take to. make things get better. That's that's. the thing. So many and this is the. ultimate example of it. But so many. things international relations in here. at home are freed with layer upon layer. that if I mention this, you say, "Okay, but what about that? And if it's that, well, what about that?". >> All of which is true. >> Yeah. And in this case, it goes back not.

just to 1947, it goes back thousands of. years, right? And it's all true. And no. one moment, no one generation, uh, least of all like a a a child or a. family living in Gaza or for that matter. living in Israel can or should have to. bear the weight of all of those layers. All we can do is say, okay, what can we. do that would make it better? And I think a new generation of American. leadership will be willing to do things. to shape the choices of an Israeli.

government in ways that neither an older. generation of Democrats nor Republicans. were willing to do. But across all of. this, I still come back to the idea that. uh that the real challenge is to to have. fidelity to the values that that even if. we're not that good at living up to them. much of the time, the values are still. there and they're still worth it and our. attachment to those is everything. So, let me ask you this finally before we. let you go. Um, I won't ask you if. you're going to run for president. because I've learned in America you will. always say no or you'll give me like a.

vague answer. Not you. Politicians just. do that here. They go like, "Well, I. think right now I'm focused on dropping. my kids off at school." Yeah. And my. life and and I think what we need to. look at right now is the midterms and. building a world where we can I know how. this goes. I know how this goes. So, I. won't ask you that. What I would ask you. instead is this. Pete Buddhajes the mayor, Pete Buddhajes. the secretary of transportation and then. we meet Pete Buddhajes now. What do you think you've seen in the.

world in America and in your communities. that has changed how or what you would. run on if you were to run again? You. know, so when you look at yourself back, I mean, now what what has been 10 years. maybe more. >> and then you look at it now, is is there. anything that's shifted you? Is there. anything that's changed your perspective. slightly? And and what would that thing. be? And and how would it change the path. that you would pursue? >> Cuz we all changed something changes us. along the way. I'd love to know, you.

know, now you've been in an. administration, for instance. >> Yeah. Um, I mean, I could point to any. number of like tactical or policy. questions where I think about it. differently or I'm more attuned to why. things are harder than they look or or I. think we should just blow something up. instead of trying to keep working with. it in our bureaucracy or something like. that. But [gasps]. but I think the biggest thing that's. changed is that. things that we used to talk about as a. matter of rhetoric. are here now. And so it's not enough,

>> you know, words like authoritarianism or. fascism, >> I think when I was first definitely when. I was first running for president, those. words are out there as kind of the end. of a conversation like look at this. stuff that's going on like that could I. mean that that might be authoritarian. Hm. >> And then it started happening. And now we're in a moment where we have. to be much more. cleareyed about what it means to deal. with that. In other words, if if we just.

say that's that's authoritarian or. that's fascist, like we, you know, um. everybody's like paralyzed by that where. actually I think the project. increasingly is like find out who's. really good at dealing with fascism and. and learn from them on on how to beat. it, >> right? And that's just like a different. project than the one I thought I was. part of even 5 years ago. Um. I think that the other thing I would say. is I I still. thought.

as recently as 5 years ago that there. was more we could do within the. structures that we inherited within the. kind of policy frameworks that we. inherited. And now I just think all of. that's being blown wide open either. because you have whole departments being. burned down like the department of. education or because like the financial. picture which is not as like sexy to. talk about fiscal policy but I think. sooner or later it will require us to. completely redesign our tax code as a. country which is not a bad thing. actually because that that could be a. chance to have uh.

a system of taxation where we actually. get more trust that our government is. actually doing good things with the. money that we pay into it. there's a. sense of more fairness. Um, but I guess. what I'm getting at more than saying. like, oh, I I, you know, think this like. border policy, you know, I disagree with. what I used to think 5 years ago. It's. more that that I think the framework. we're in needs to be replaced. in a way that I think, you know, Trump. has has clearly um exposed, but I think.

Democrats need to come to terms with. and we're just into a new world in terms. of what that means for what leaders need. to do. [snorts]. >> Well, as always, man, I enjoy having a. conversation with you. Thank you for. joining us. Thank you for being so. candid. And uh yeah, man. Thanks for. sharing your beard. >> I appreciate it. Thank you very much. For real. Thanks. for having me. >> Thank you so much for watching the. episode. If you enjoyed it, pass it on. to a friend. If you didn't enjoy it,

pass it on to your friends still. Let. them suffer for a change. And don't. forget to engage with us in the. comments. Uh if you want to suggest a. guest, maybe there's questions you want, [music] maybe there's ideas that you. have, you can chat to us. We will read. through the comments and we'll get into. it. Either way, I appreciate you taking. the time. Thank you for hanging out with. us on What [music] Now. And remember, we. do this for you, so we would like to. hear from you. Till next time. Thank. you.