Oobah Butler: The Digital Mirage

[music]. >> Where did you grow up? I grew up in a. little village called Fakenham in in. England. Sorry. >> ridiculous. >> sorry. Fakenham is like Why did you look. at me? No, come on. You can't tell me. you didn't enjoy that. Fakenham. You. seem like you're from Fakenham. >> [laughter]. >> In fact, from now on I'm going to say. that about you. My friend Eugene from Fakenham. >> [laughter]. >> You've been Fakenham in my whole life. You're a Fakenham if if I saw one. >> I just I just say this to call my to.

clip that for my mom and. >> [laughter]. >> Trevor Noah saying Fakenham. That's it. I'm already I'm quick. Yeah, I'm done. I'm happy. >> [music]. >> This is What Now with Trevor Noah. >> [music]. >> Solitary athletes. it's sort of like they are.

paying for their wife to be able to be. their companion in the world so that. it's not a solitary anymore. So now when. you're riding a bike in the mountains. preparing for the you know during the. off season Yes. you're not alone. Yes. And then when you you have to fly. through the Alps to go and ski every day. to prepare for the thing. you're not alone. And then you know what. I mean? Yeah. Cuz the the the. fundamental truth is if she has to work. She won't be there. She just won't be. there. And then you will you like you. know what it was like comedy on the. road? Yeah.

That was not lonely. Yeah, it's it's. The amount of comedians who committed. suicide in like a random hotel room. somewhere. >> Jesus. >> It's actually like a like a really high. number if you look at the industry. >> Mhm. It would always be like random. comedian. dead by themselves. >> It's always them alone. You know what I. mean? Mhm. So I can I can see that where. it's like it's more them going. Yeah, I'm like sort of paying for her to. be able to do this. Let's go.

I suppose it changes when they have when. they have kids as well cuz then they. then they'll What do they bring the kids. with them as well? >> Yeah, they do. Do they do? They do. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Kids live on the road. with them. Also remember that most of. them started being on the road when they. were. um, 13? 13, 14? Yeah. They had to get out of. school. Yeah. All they know. They always All of. them say one thing, I missed out on my. matric dance, I missed out on. university. I don't know what it's like. So, they always say. they look at their old friends as a. distant memory.

Oh, that's interesting. >> Like they think when they were 13 their. their life stopped when they were 13. having school lunches. And all of a. sudden all of them have a a common. story. Uh, their parent came to school, spoke to. the principal, then the principal was. like, "Yeah, yeah, I'm sure you can uh". Then they never saw their friends again. And all of a sudden they were in a camp. They were wearing sponsored clothes. They were going downhill. They were. surfing. They were doing all of this. And they've never returned again. So, through their wives they get to live. vicariously, you know? They get to hear. about how was it when you were at that. and then and then and then. But most of.

them don't also know how to be parents. Right. >> Because they're strangers to their kids. The biggest fear of retirement is what. am I going to do when I. Off-season is a is a torture when the. kids get older cuz they think, "What am. I going to say to this person?". We don't know the routine. She or he or. she doesn't know, "I'm a stranger. I. show up and they go. What are you doing? Yeah.". At least if you've got that like Red. Bull sponsorship you got money. Whereas. with like the Olympic athletes that it. seems like they have no money. >> They got no money either. That that that. might be for me the the the most.

depressing trajectory. >> Yeah, Olympic. >> Olympic athletes, yeah. Because most of them don't get anything. in that way. >> Yes. They don't get the endorsement. deals. They don't get the ad campaigns. They. don't get the reward money. They don't. get anything. >> Yes. You. or it's almost worse for the ones that. like win the gold or something. But like you know those like golds that. mean. >> Skeet shooting. >> [laughter].

[laughter]. >> I've said getting there twice today. >> [laughter]. >> I could take a number one. I could take. a 60th minute. Oh, when he had the assist from Salah? Yeah, it's a good goal. It's a nice goal. You have something to. say to me Trevor. You you know who you. are. >> Who am I? >> [laughter]. >> Who am I? >> the great Gatsby of. the great Gatsby of football. No, of. football.

>> [laughter]. >> Because Eugene Eugene knows nothing. about football and his greatest joy. is acting like he's fully [laughter]. invested in it. And then like he'll he'll absorb. everything we say and then first he'll. like throw it back at us. >> a little thing back. Oh, but like [laughter] impeccably. Impeccably and he'll he'll just I. remember the first time he did it and. [laughter] I didn't pick it up. So you. you'd say something and then someone. would go like they'd be like man today's. game they'd be like Salah's like and.

then he'd be like dude Salah's like. >> [laughter]. >> and then they would just go off they'd. be like man I just don't get what and. then like the last thing would be like. like why is he on the right and Eugene's. like well why is he ON THE RIGHT? >> [laughter]. >> AND YOU'D WATCH. >> [laughter]. >> you'd learn. I mean I'm I'm just saying. it you're talking sense. Yeah, why is he. on the right? We need him in the middle. yeah, you're right. Yeah, yeah. You'd. watch people you'd watch people have a. conversation by themselves just prodded. on by Eugene. [laughter]. Just prodding him on just prodding him.

on. It's just happened. He just got me. Yeah, well he's fantastic at it. I I. just started. cuz I've I've been living here what. lately two years now. and I just. I like love sports so I'll watch it I'll. watch anything. But, I'm you're one of. those people. No, I'm well, kind of. But, I'm I love football. I love. cricket, which is why I asked cuz I was. like, "It's interesting." I don't watch. much of it, but I watch like the England. national team. I don't watch it much. else. I'm not watching like Indian.

Premier League and like if it's on, great, but uh I started watching the. Knicks this year because of the because. of the playoffs. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It. was amazing. That was like that felt. like, "Okay, I get it." And and watching. watching basketball without ever. properly having people around me who. know what's going on. You don't. understand what the Jeff is doing. >> that's all sports. Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> Yeah, I feel like that's all sports. >> story, you need a story. You need like. you need that. >> That's good. Yeah, and it was like that. was cool. I went like I went last week. This week, when was it? Monday? Last.

Monday. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I went to. Knicks and uh. with some terrible team who all looked. about 14 years old. Uh they beat them. North Carolina? No, I. guess. I don't know. Is South Carolina? >> I don't keep up at all. It was it was. sick. It was great. I don't keep up at. all. >> an accident. I was like, "Oh, I'll. probably like baseball hasn't happened.". Like, "Oh, maybe I'll like hockey." No, but if you like cricket if you like. cricket, I think you will like baseball. Yeah. So, when I was.

I've always. I don't even think I haven't liked ba-. baseball. I've just been like, "What is. the point of this? What are we doing. here?" When I went to a baseball game. recently, I had a friend who came and sat with me. for He would just happen to be at the. game coincidentally. And then he came. and he said he's I was like, "Oh, what. are you doing here?" He's like, "Oh.". And then he's like, "So, do you Do you. know what's happen- Score was 0-0 when. like the I don't know, seventh inning or. something. Nothing was moving. I was just like, "What are we doing here, guys?".

And then he sat down. He's like, "Man, what a great game, right?" And I was. like, "Ah, man, sorry. I don't. >> [laughter]. >> I was like, "I'm. >> It's 0-0. not happening." But, more than. 0-0 cuz like you know like 0-0 in in. soccer or in football for me has a lot. of like. there's a lot of tension. Yeah yeah yeah yeah. depending on where. the time is Yeah exactly. So now he came and introduced that all. to me so he's like okay so. you see this picture right now. he's getting close to his hundredth.

pitch Mhm. and so now they're trying to. wear him out and get him to a hundred. pitches because once once he gets to a. hundred pitches then they have to bring. in the new pitcher Oh I didn't know. that. >> And you see exactly that's what I mean I. didn't know any of this stuff so then I. realized baseball is all a game of like. I'm all good. It's all good. Thank you. Baseball is almost like a. Have you ever played those those those. games they're normally mobile games but. you used to play them back in the day on. computers as well where you were like. chipping away at something chipping away.

at something chipping away at something. then the wall bursts and then it's like. now the war starts. Or yeah or or those. where they where you hit the ball and. then the balls get increased. Or think of it this way like think of a. TV show right? Sometimes you'll watch a great show. where it's like a Game of Thrones or one. of those. and if you don't know the show. like six episodes can be about what's. going to happen in the war. Yeah yeah. Do you know what I mean? Every episode. is just people looking at maps. My lord.

[laughter] my lord if we assail their. forces from this direction my lord then. it should be easier. OH WE'RE NEVER. GOING TO GET THROUGH THAT THERE. What do. you mean? And if you don't know that. show Yeah you're so sucks. You're like. this is terrible what is what is. happening nothing's happening. Yes. Nothing's happening. But to your point because you know the. jeopardy you're like oh man what are. they going to do? Yeah. They're going to. go here they're going Yeah yeah. That's. baseball. Yeah. So baseball is one of. the sports where if you don't understand. the jeopardy Yeah. I don't think you can. understand the I don't think you can.

appreciate the sport because unlike. basketball unlike other sports where. it's like oh ball goes there in ah ball. goes there in ah ball goes there in no. baseball is. >> like, "What are they going to do? Are they now. going to put him in?" And you know, a. right-handed throwing to a left batsman. Oh, this is You know, it's going to be. like this stressful. What are we Oh. Oh. Oh. And there's this whole tipping. point. I I didn't know this before. There's a whole tipping point where when. the pitcher gets you 100 pitches, it's. basically it. >> idea about that. I had no idea. So, you.

put your best You put your best pitcher. in. >> Yeah. You try and get as many outs as possible. in as few pitches as possible. But, if. you get to 100 pitches, you like sort of. have to take them out. Wow. Or they have. to leave at 100 pitches. >> they have to go rest their arm. >> It's like a Uber driver. So, after 12. hours. >> [laughter]. >> Oh, is that right? Yes, they have to. leave. >> for 12 hours. After 12 hours, they look. >> [laughter]. >> You've done your best, okay? Dropped off a few grannies, two drunk people. This is it for you.

Yeah, and [laughter] so you got to You. got to take them and you got to. Yeah, you got to You've got to You've. got to take the person and then rest and. then. And then you get the really [ __ ] Uber. driver in. >> [laughter]. >> No, but that's basically what happened. Then the Apparently, the drop-off So, the cuz I was confused by that, but the. drop-off to the second pitcher. is apparently quite high because all the. best pitchers are on a team. >> they want they want to all be. >> Yeah, they're they're the best pitcher. So, the drop-off to the second one is. like they're way more hittable. They. would like This is where the home runs.

are going to come now. This is where the. ball Makes sense. >> That's where the scoring is supposed to. sort of happen. So, it becomes this this. tactical game of like, "When do you. switch your pitchers? When do you not. switch your pitchers? How you You know, and then just because that guy came in. and introduced it to me, I was like, "Oh. >> totally understand the tension. >> Okay, now I understand the tension. >> Yeah. Now Now I get Now I get why everyone in. the stadium is like. breathing these collective like. So, the only time baseball became fun is. when it turned into the Kardashians.

That's one way to it. became dramatic, there was a lot of tension. Or rather when someone or rather when. someone showed me that it was the. Kardashians. It didn't turn into. You know if there's. one thing I want to Have you been to the. Super Bowl? No. I want to do that. >> You want to go to the Super Bowl? Oh. yeah, but not for the football, for the. pomp and ceremony. It's a thing. How's that excellent? Yeah, yeah, I liked it. Yeah, I mean it. didn't even. it didn't flag up. >> you didn't flinch once, huh? No, I. didn't flinch. >> [laughter].

>> Uh but Uber, welcome, man. Welcome. welcome to the to the podcast. This is. No, no, no, what do you mean? Why is it. okay? What are you going to drink from. the floor? Well, [laughter] yeah, I was a COUPLE OF. THINGS. HE'S LIKE THROUGH YOUR SLEEVE. >> [laughter]. >> Uh no, man. Can I tell you you're one of those um. You know when you you know when you form. an idea of somebody in your mind before. you meet them? Yeah. [laughter].

You're one of those people where the. first time I heard about you. I was just like, wait, who is this. person? Like cuz the the first time I. heard about you, it's when you created. the world's most popular restaurant that. no one could get into. Yeah. Yeah. No. one could visit. Everyone wanted to go. It like it was number one on Trip. Advisor. Everyone in the world was like, you've got to go to this restaurant. It's the greatest restaurant. It had. like how many thousand reviews at one. point? >> actually that many, but it was it was. more the algorithmic hack. But yeah. >> Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, like it had put it.

at the top of the thing. >> Exactly, yeah. It was enough and they. were done at the right time and that was. an accident. I wasn't being clever, but. yeah. Excellent. Well, no, it wasn't, but. it it was. it was lucky it tremendously lucky that. it worked, I think. So, I'm saying. Like I don't think the. fact that it actually I mean you. interrupted me. >> No, no, no, you're not. This is You. can't interrupt me. No, no, no, no, no, no. I was just Trust me. You can't. You can't You just can't. interrupt. Okay. I need [laughter] to. see I I need to understand where the. jeopardy is. So, I need to know.

>> [laughter]. >> Yeah, no. I mean that Yeah, I mean you. said that that was the first time I. think anybody heard of me I think at. all. It was uh. Yeah, tremendously lucky. Like it was. kind of one of those things where it was. like this like idea that was like. I was doing on the side of other ideas. I was like, "Okay, I'm going to slowly. build this up." And the And the longer. it went on the more silly it it got and. the more mental. >> Yeah, the more people bought into it and. I was like, "Well, at at some point. someone's going to knock on my door and.

be like. what are you doing, you child?" You. know? And and And I was going to get in. trouble and and it would be taken down. or what I just didn't think I thought at. some point it would go wrong. Um. We're presuming now that the viewer. understands what the hell I'm talking. about. >> We'll give them a little context. That'll be fine. But for those for those. who don't know it was basically a you. you created a fake restaurant Yeah. in. London and it was a place that everyone. was dying to go to. And then at some. point publications started picking it up. and they're like, "Oh, the best.

restaurant in London that you can't get. into it." And then they wanted to cover. it and then publicists wanted to be a. part of it and it was a whole thing. And. it becomes this whole world. And then. I think at some point you did. cuz it didn't exist, right? >> Yeah, it was It was completely made up. >> Yeah, you you you created this fake. world. I'm so into this. Yeah, this is. why I love. >> [laughter]. >> this is why I for me I'm in. So, I'LL. TELL YOU YOU KNOW you people always go. like, "Why do you have somebody on?". Yeah. Through and through for me. >> [laughter]. >> You made me realize. so you live my dream.

That's why you're here. You No, genuinely you live my dream. I'll tell you what because my dream has. always been to be like like a like a. massive like fraudster. But then I go. you go to jail. And then you do it and I was like, "Oh, you There's a way to do it and not go to. jail." It's good being a wife. >> [laughter]. >> She say. Cuz I was like this to me is fraud. This. seems like massive fraud. But if you. film it and if you if you have a camera. where you're like, so I'm going to do. this fraud, then it's now it's a prank.

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> between fraud and a prank That's a good. one. Yeah, it's a loophole. Yeah, the. loophole is you got to say ahead of time. to a camera, or it's like, hey guys, this is so day one of planning this. prank, then it's not fraud. >> So wait, so like, oh yeah, so let me get. this right. So if you are Move your. thing there so Hannah's doesn't shame. If if there's a camera. and then you're just talking to it, yeah, then it's a it's a diary confession. >> Yes, exactly. Exactly. Exactly. But if. there's a cop behind it, it's a. deposition. That's the difference.

[laughter] Basically, it's who brings. the camera. If you bring the camera, it's a porn. >> [laughter]. >> So um. You you're not wrong. If you bring a. camera, it's a porn. If someone else. brings the camera, it's a sex tape. >> Yeah, and that's against the law. Yes, you see. So. >> [laughter]. >> But like. So so let's talk through this and then I. want to get into like how you Yeah. how. you even get into this world.

You have. the the number one. Talk me through how you start the scam. Like where did you even begin the idea. of I'm going to create the world's most. popular restaurant. that doesn't actually exist but gets all. these reviews and then gets written. about and then people want to pay. exorbitant amounts of money to come to. but they've never been to it. Like cuz. you there's a few things that you do. here. You [snorts]. you encapsulate in one story hype. You. encapsulate myth. You encapsulate like.

just how we in the world all want things. that aren't even real. Yeah. Cuz people. were dying to go to this restaurant. People were like, oh, when I go to. London, like, you know what? I wish I. could go but I can't get in. Oh, [laughter]. and the food is amazing. Oh. But it's not real. I was like, this this man has tapped. into every single thing. that's sort of like wrong with the. world. And not today, just like it's. sort of like the human brain. So, so. walk us through how you created the. greatest restaurant scam. How does it. start? Uh.

So, yeah, I mean, I suppose that I'd been. when I was younger, I used to work in. sort of bars and restaurants and stuff. like that. So, I'd been in those. contexts. I'd been Where was this, by. the way? Where did you grow up? I grew. up in a little village called Fakenham. in uh. >> [clears throat]. >> in England. Sorry. >> Sounds ridiculous, but. >> no. Fakenham is like Why do you look at. me? No, come on. You can't tell me you. didn't enjoy that. Fakenham. You seem. like you're from Fakenham. >> [laughter]. >> In fact, from now on, I'm going to say. that about you. My friend Eugene from Fakenham.

>> [laughter]. >> YOU'VE BEEN FAKENHAM MY WHOLE LIFE. YOU'RE A Fakenham if ever I saw one. >> I just. I just had this I can't wait to clip. that for my mom and dad. >> [laughter]. >> Trevor Noah's saying Fakenham is just. That's just I'm already I'm cooked here. I'm done. [laughter] I'm I'm happy. Uh. no, I mean, I So, I grew up in the. middle of nowhere, basically. My mom's. My mom's family been there for hundreds. of years. Got webbed toes to prove it. and all that. [laughter]. Uh. you know, no, not really. But, uh might. as well do. Um and then my dad's family.

are from Birmingham and Ireland. And. like, so um we I grew up there. Uh I I'm the youngest of six. So, sort. of desperate for attention, that kind of. that kind of type. Um we were sort of. token working class family in a kind of. village of like lots of very. Also, like a posh vibe. >> And then farmers, posh farmers. You're. right in the middle. >> And then a lot of the Yeah, and a lot of. the people who you would have worked in. the mills and stuff have have moved a. long time ago. But, my mom's fam- our. family's still there. So, it's like a.

fun environment to grow up in. Um. and. yeah, I suppose I just did like like I I. didn't go to college. I stayed in. Fakenham way too long. Uh and I would take jobs that I could. get. And one of the first sort of set of. jobs I would get was working in bars, working in restaurants and. in those contexts I remember just. hearing about TripAdvisor constantly and. how if someone left a one star review it. would be a problem you know for everyone. what what what what happened last night. you know it would be like it was a very.

serious platform TripAdvisor holds that. much power. >> Yeah I've sort of heard about. [clears throat] this from lots of but. really so if you work in a food or. beverage establishment if someone leaves. a one star review it shakes the place. up. It's still the same way it's just. the I think it's a migrated slightly I. think Google reviews is probably the. number one now I would say but like it's. my like when I was doing that when I did. that TripAdvisor was the biggest tourist. website on the planet. I would say it's. probably still it's still big probably. one of the top three or something. >> no it is definitely. But yeah I mean. it still happens now if someone leaves a.

one star review it's on you. So it's. interesting yeah. Wait wait wait so when. they leave the one star do they say it. was him. that I'm leaving the one star for or for. the restaurant? happen yeah. It does. happen yeah yeah. It's like a daily. petty version of the Michelin star. It's. terrible. It really is. Have you never. read I love reading Google reviews. No I. don't I don't no literally and then. they'll they'll put Ryan. They'll. literally [laughter] go. We do have Ryan. They'll literally go. they'll just be like um. one star and then I read I like reading. the one stars because I go to leave one.

star for a place. cuz remember that's the lowest you can. leave basically. Yeah. So you left one. star. Yes. The worst experience you. could possibly have. >> Yes this is the So I want to know what. the worst experience in your life could. be. So you go in there. So I go read one. star reviews. >> Yeah. I always want to read the one star. reviews. Yeah and then it's like. especially in a in a place that has like. let's say a place has an average of 4.6. or 4.7. Then there's that one one star. Thousands of people have said this is. 4.7 worthy and then someone has a one. star I'm like okay I want to know what. happened here. Yeah what's happening. here. The shop across the road. And then.

you go in competition. Yo you go in. >> [laughter]. >> That is that definitely happens. Definitely, definitely, definitely. >> Yes, cuz. the number one whistleblowers in any. situation are people who didn't get the. contract. Oh, I like that. >> Anyway. Yeah. So then they'll go in. and then it'll it'll be it'll sometimes. be like um. "Great food, great ambiance, great atmosphere.". >> So compliments first.

>> Yeah, all these things. Then it's like. they're establishing that they're. reasonable. >> Yes. >> [laughter]. >> I like this actually. I like this. Then they'll then they'll then they'll. go then they'll go like "Appetizers were. a little expensive, but still great.". And then they'll be like. "Eugene, >> [laughter]. >> OUR SERVER, TOTALLY UNPROFESSIONAL. Didn't like how he treated us. Should be. fired." Yeah. Just like that. That's it. >> One star. One star. Yeah. So I'm the. problem. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, I I so so I ended up I actually. before I did the restaurant thing. So. what happened was so I had that little. experience. Years five, six years pass. Then I start working as a writer, trying. to work as a writer. To move to London, try and start hustling, try and like. what can I get paid for? What gigs can I. get paid for? >> yeah. I know this life. >> And. and the I there was a like a freelance. website and it was called PeoplePerHour. and they would like people would. advertise like writer, we need a writer.

to do X, Y, or Z. One of the gigs on. there was writing fake five-star reviews. >> No way. >> restaurants. So to reduce their reduce. their ratings. >> God loves you. >> Yeah, yeah. So so I started doing that. and and I would just go like go on their. website go all right, okay. I went there. I had the whatever. >> No, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. You you can't just skim over this. because I'll tell you I'll tell you why. Because right now what you're doing I. think for me and I I think other people. is you are. exposing the very underpinnings of how.

like we think society works. >> Great, yeah. Right. No, cuz a lot of. people they like people trust reviews. Do you know what I mean? >> [clears throat]. >> And more than that, people trust. well-written reviews. Yeah, definitely. Do you know what I mean? So, if you go. on like Amazon or if you go on. TripAdvisor, you go on Google, you go on. any of these, the better written the review, the more. you trust it. Yeah. >> Yeah. So, I'm not a regular user of drinking. glasses. And so, when I began this journey, I.

thought to myself, "Where would I find. the right drinking glass?" And you're. like, "Oh, I'm in. I'm in." And now. you're telling me that this is a. freelance job that people get hired to. do. I mean, I would say now it's way. more advanced than that. This is This is. 8 years ago, 7 or 8 years ago. So, I. think that that now it is a what the. manipulation of it is far more. sophisticated. I mean, we all know this. that. our lives are curated by um I don't. know, manipulated realities, aren't. they? And then, you know, people's. decisions with my thing, which we'll get.

on to, yeah, was based on a on a false. reality with that had been constructed. and sold to us as legitimate. And I. think what my The reason why this ended. up becoming this huge viral story and. that you saw it and everything was like. that it tapped into this whole thing. about this like, "Oh my god, this It's. like taking What is it? The blue pill or. the red pill? I don't know. I've lost. track.". >> pill. The red pill. You take it and then. you have it and then you see how things. work. And like, I don't know now it was. it's fascinating how many bots there. are. How many things like that. I don't know now it was it's fascinating. how many bots there are. How many things.

like that. How much of our online. experience is falsified. I think back. then, yeah, it was I was getting paid. >> the bot. I was the bot. I was the bot. I. mean, look, I didn't know I never knew. there were human bots. You're writing these fake reviews, right? You're You're in this world. What. made you a good fake reviewer? Uh willingness and. >> [laughter]. >> openness to mis truths. No, I look I Oh man. I don't know. I.

Yeah, I suppose. Yeah, I mean, literally what I just said. is true. Like I I think I'm a. bullshitter at heart. My dad is a. bullshitter. I actually might my great. uncle like No, no. Great granddad. moved to the US, right? Temporarily came. back, went back to the Birmingham, England. He came here I And this is a. real story. Came here and sold uh rabbit. droppings, so rabbit [ __ ] rolled in. flour and sold as a medicine. My man. That's real. That I didn't know about this. I did not.

know about this until this year. So, I. was looking at. >> [laughter]. >> There was rabbit [ __ ] in my DNA. Um. You know, I'm like But but in all. honesty, like there was always like a. It felt I could I suppose it felt. faceless and it felt I didn't do loads. of it, you know, I'm not like I'm I'm. earning bank by writing these things. How much did you earn per review? 10. pounds. So, what, $13.50? Yeah, no, I mean, that's a 10 pounds.

>> it's a lot of money. Yeah, that's a lot. of money. I think 10 pounds per review? I would be pumping those Did you have. like a limit? I I would guess that I probably only. wrote about 20 of them. And then what. happened? Well, I mean, I just found other gigs. I. was doing other things. So, so it but it. was that It was a not like the main job. that I had. It was I was in London. I'd. just moved there and I had I had no re-. I hadn't been to college. I had no. reason to think I could be a writer, but. I was trying to do stuff just get to get. paid for it to legitimize it and trying. to do something.

You truly do. I was going to, but in the. middle of writing, I realized I'm not. qualified. But anyway, that. It doesn't [laughter] matter. It doesn't. matter. That doesn't matter. Come on. No, no, no. It's It's [laughter] It's his. medicine. How do you feel about that? Uh take the red pill. >> [laughter]. >> Take the brown pill. With the rabbit droppings? Okay, sorry, Sorry. No, no, it's true. No, you you. You know what? You're absolutely right. Like I mean, we grew up we grew up in a. kind of like a weird kind of like uh.

we as I said, we were kind of the weird. kind of. scumbag family in the village that. everyone would throw their kids at. So, all the rich kids would hang out at our. house and it was all loads of fun, but I. was raised by my elder brothers. basically. Mom and Dad were out Mom was. a nurse, Dad was sold records. Oh, really? Yeah. >> Mom was a nurse, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So, um Dad sold vinyl records on the markets. and always had loads of office jobs. Mom. was a nurse. There was loads of us and. it was sort of just like it felt fun and. naughty and life when it feels fun and.

naughty is kind of always. I don't know. There was. I suppose I didn't engage with like the. gravitas of what I was doing. I was. lying in order to manipulate people's. experiences, but I was being paid to do. that. >> Yeah. But it like it didn't seem that. unusual, but having worked in. restaurants as well, I was like, this is. crazy. And I was like, because wait. there, I used to get told off if someone. left a one-star review. So, like. I'm now in the the the the the the. environment is is is not trustworthy.

It's So, I suppose that stuck in my head. and what made me think think about this. was when you guys were talking about. one-star reviewers, I actually So, what. happened was I started writing for I did. I did an internship at like websites, music websites generally, started doing. more gonzo journalism style stuff, kind. of weird music reviews, weird stuff like. that. And then eventually it led me to. working with Vice and that was Mhm. that. that you remember Vice right there. >> Yeah, [clears throat] yeah. Um but like. that that then changed my life and then. I started making a living doing it. So,

then it's like I'd write three or four. things a a month, different weird things. and like. one of the things I did on the journey. to get into the fake restaurant was I I. wrote a piece about um TripAdvisor's. harshest reviewers. Okay. >> So, I took them out for for lunch. I. contacted them and said, "I'd love to go. to lunch." Cuz I wanted to understand. the psychology of like, why would you go. to a restaurant and just leave a. one-star review? Like, you know, it's. such a funny thing to do with your with. your time. Unless like you've been, you. know, uppercutted by the waiter or.

whatever. >> [laughter]. >> It's such a weird thing to do with your. time. >> Well, that's your fault. You're coming. to Don't come to Uppercuts. If [laughter] you don't want to get an. uppercut. They actually I forgot that. >> [laughter]. >> Special interest. Uh but like, so yeah, I took out these. these It was actually three different. guys. I took them all out and I and I. reviewed them. So, I reviewed them like like a. restaurant. >> And I did that and all of them were kind. of very strange and quite evasive and. complicated. One of them was one of the.

funniest guys I've ever met in my life. and he made me take him to the the. poshest restaurant in London or one of. them at the time, La Gavroche. And he. went through the whole meal and he was. complaining the whole time. It was like. being with Larry David. He was just the. whole time being like, "Excuse me. Is. that actually a. Oh, sniffing the wine, doubting the. sommelier, you know. >> [laughter]. >> I'm a high bar for for shame for like. shame, public shame. But this guy was. insane. Um I mean, you just get this right about. talk to us about. But like, he was like.

he said to me, he was like uh the whole. time he complained and I was like, "This. guy is fascinating." And he was like, "You know, the reason I do this is I I'm. I'm like a He saw himself as some like. vanguard. I'm doing it for people. Self-sacrifice. I'm doing it.". >> I'm holding the door. And and uh and he. said exactly. At the end of the evening, I remember saying to him, "So, what what. do you think about La Gavroche?" And he. said, "Oh, it's it's one of the best. restaurants in the world." I was like, after spending two hours with him, I. mean. >> Him complaining through the whole meal. >> insane. And I was like, "How many. stars?" He went, "Three.".

>> [laughter]. >> And that was it. For the best restaurant. in the. >> Yeah, exactly. So, so, so I'd been in. those like that psychology of reviewers. and reviews was interesting to me and. then but then that while I was doing. that, I started thinking That was when. the idea for the restaurant kind of. came. It all kind of fell together and I. knew I had to write three to four pieces. for Vice a month and the Guardian I was. writing for a little bit. Um. and it and yeah, I kind of found a. style, luckily, which was this kind of. like uh um gonzo style social.

experiment-y style thing. Did another. thing where I I went door to door. I. pretended I was joining uh joining the. Jehovah's Witnesses. Oh, no. >> And I went door door to door and and. learned how they sell door to door. How. do How does that work? Cuz I I don't I I. don't know any of anybody who's opened. the door. Yeah. >> Or like How does that work? >> Well, well, they. the numbers. No, I don't. I genuinely don't. No, it's. the right question because I was. thinking the same thing. That's why I. got interested in it. Cuz I'd been in a.

band and we'd failed and I was like it. must It's so hard to sell a CD. It's. like 2015-16 this was and I was like you. can't No one will buy a CD. What do. people want to buy less than a CD? A. Jehovah's Witness at the door. And I was. like if I can compete with them, this is. all over the place. I'm sorry. But. but it's But basically what happened was. I I I then started going around with. them from door to door and building data. and how many people out of 100 doors. would let me in. >> Wait, where did you find Jehovah's.

Witnesses that were looking for No, they. found him, Eugene. They found me. >> [laughter]. >> They saw They saw a lapsed Catholic and. they thought. >> [laughter]. >> opportunity. What's that medicine in his pocket? >> [laughter]. >> Smells like. Um but yeah, it was just like this it. was it was in I was in South London, so. there was loads of like, you know, new. churches and stuff like that around. there. Um it's very active religiously. South London. And um.

yeah, so it was like I I started going. from door to door. I went to these. seminars they had where they would go. they would be like, "Okay." And they. would do like a a role play like you're. in a. >> Oh, so they teach you how to do it. Oh. And then they'd be like they'd they'd go. like, "Okay, so role play now. Pretend. you're answering the door.". So. So I'm your it's your house. Yeah. Hello. Oh, hello there. Wait, you don't open. your door. Are you talking through the. door? Yeah, something Ring doorbell. >> I just want to make sure. Okay, sorry. Go ahead. Sorry. This was before the. ring. Before ring. This is before ring.

When your face was the camera. Yeah, he's in the CDs. [laughter]. He's in the CDs. Hello. Hi there. Would you like to learn. about God? What about him? No, listen. You need to learn about God. Stop. What went wrong there? Um I'm. still holding the door handle. No, you. >> [laughter]. >> you you you you were aggressive. You. were Yes, you were too aggressive. Yeah, you were too aggressive. Okay, great. So. how What could I have done differently? I think what you could have done. differently there is you could have. asked him.

maybe if he has troubles in his life or. would he like to learn about the love of. Jesus or would he like to learn about. something good or you've got to offer. him something, I think. >> Fantastic. So do you do you want to try. a second attempt? Do you want to try the. second attempt? You think you could do. better? I was watching No, I can't I. don't know I don't think I can do. better. I was watching the situation. >> No, no, no. He thinks he can do better. If he doesn't do this now, I'll be. tortured with it the whole day. Trevor. No, I First I want to see a better. version. Okay, that's the thing. He He. He He went but I got excited about the. idea of you doing it. >> [laughter].

>> That's how it should be. This is how it. should have gone. >> you. Okay. Knock. Hello. Hello there. What a lovely day. How are. you? Would you like to hear. Would you like [laughter] to hear about. the love of Jesus Christ? How are you. feeling today? Yeah. He loves me, too? He definitely loves. you. Although I'm not wearing pants right now. as I open the. He loves that? He's got a lot of space.

in his heart. >> [laughter]. >> COME IN. COME IN. ALL RIGHT, SO THAT'S. STUFF. THAT'S FANTASTIC. SO, that's. basically what it was like. The seminars. are kind of. >> [laughter]. >> kind of like that. with more nudity. Don't go anywhere cuz we got more What. Now after this. You know what I love about spring? Everything just feels fresh again. >> [music]. >> The weather shifts, people start going. outside more, and suddenly you feel like.

you should be eating something that. [music] didn't come out of a packet. That's why I like going to Whole Foods. Market this time of year. Whole Foods. Market is your go-to destination to. celebrate the fresh flavors of spring. with seasonal produce at its juiciest, plus limited-time flavors throughout the. store. This is the time to get together and. share vibrant finds with your loved. ones. And you feel it as soon as you. walk in. You've got organic bagged salad. kits, fresh produce, potatoes, parsnips,

radishes, spring onions, artichokes, all. the things that make you feel like. you've got your life together. And then, of course, you go in for that, and you leave with things you didn't. plan for, like a peach apricot rose. Italian soda, or those 365 by Whole. Foods Market strawberry pretzels that. somehow disappear before you even get. home. And if you're hosting, or even. just showing up somewhere trying to. impress people, the bakery has you. covered. The mango yuzu Chantilly cake,

the strawberry shortcake, these are the. kind of desserts where people don't ask. questions. They just assume that you. know what you're doing. >> [music]. >> And the nice thing is, there are deals. throughout the store, especially on 365. brand items, so you can feel responsible. while [music] still treating yourself a. little. Because that's really what. spring is about, starting fresh and then. [music] rewarding yourself immediately. Enjoy the fresh flavors of spring and. save at Whole Foods Market.

All right, Eugene. >> [music]. >> Let's play a little game. You know, make. something fun. Two truths and a lie. Here we go. One, I've had to tell a world leader. that their fly was undone. Two, when getting dressed, I don't do. sock sock shoe shoe. I do sock shoe sock. shoe. Three, I've been a Verizon customer for. 11 years. What do you think? Mhm, very confused. First of all, why. would a world leader own a fly? Cuz those things just come uninvited. Secondly, lying to your friend is not.

cool. It's never been a game. No, Eugene, a fly is for like the zip is. what. and then it's it's it's not a lie. It's. a game where I'm trying It's like I give. you inform. Okay, I lied. All three are true, Eugene. And in case you were thinking, you know, Verizon isn't as expensive as. you think. In fact, if you bring in your. AT&T or T-Mobile bill, they'll give you. a better deal. And the reason I've been with them for. this long is just because I travel so. much. I need a network that's reliable.

That's right. A better deal on the best. network with the most ways to save on. plan, streaming, and phone deals. Take. your AT&T or T-Mobile bill to your local. Verizon store today, get your better. deal, and start saving for real. Based on Root. Metrics best overall mobile network. performance, US second half 2025. All. rights reserved. You must provide recent. consumer mobile bill in the name of the. person redeeming the deal. Additional. terms, conditions, and restrictions.

apply. So, do you understand how two truths and. Do you understand it now? >> I understand that you didn't have to lie. first before telling me that Verizon is. the best. No, I wasn't lying. Eugene, it's not a lie. I wouldn't lie to you. It's a game. Okay, I'm sorry. I lied. Ah. >> [laughter]. >> This is great because.

you're showing me how. you know, to pull off one of the. greatest scams that's ever been pulled. off, you needed to have all the tools. >> Yeah. Right, the origin story. So, you. had it in your DNA, right? You got the. grandfather who's like literally the. snake oil salesman, okay? >> yeah. You've got like your dad who who's. a [ __ ] but just like in life he's. like he's cuz he's got it in in him, you. know, okay? You're the you're the runt. of the litter, so you're like, "How do I. get attention? How do I make my way?". All right, so you got this vibe. Then. you go to Jehovah's Witness training,

ultimate sales camp. >> [laughter]. >> So, now you're learning how to. >> that that position how to sell people on. a thing that they can't see and like you. just have to get them to believe in it. and you know what I mean? And and. notoriously are not liked and you meet. the reviewers who teach you about. reviewing and what review is. So, you. got all of these pieces. And then you go, "O- okay, this is it. Yeah. I'm going to I'm going to launch. my my fake restaurant. >> Yes. Yeah, so I I I I basically just kind of. had an idea I I thought about the. platform that I knew that the reviews.

were a lot of them could have been. falsified. It was very easy to falsify. >> Wait, I have one question before you get. into that though. >> Yeah. I don't understand how you put the. restaurant on Trip Advisor. Does nobody. confirm these places exist or don't? How. does that work? So, yeah, no, I I'll. I'll tell you. Well, basically like. I looked into it, so the reviews are. very easy to leave. The accounts you can. very easily and then the restaurants. themselves felt out it felt like. something that would be impossible to. falsify. >> Yeah. So, I kind of just like. just started trying it out. I was like, "Okay, so.

Okay, so went on it, created a. restaurant on Trip Advisor. What do I. want as the name? So, I was. >> What did you call it? I was living in a. garden shed at the time at the back of. someone's house. So, I just moved to. London and it was like the only place I. could afford. It was a 800 pounds a. month, which is still not that cheap, but anyway, whatever. 800 pounds a. month. Uh just just all all of it. It's It's. literally a. >> [laughter]. >> I I just Sorry. Sorry. I'm so No, it's. good. [laughter] It's good. It's good.

It was a. per person. Oh, you're. >> [laughter]. >> Nothing beats Yeah, that's. all of that. Yeah, that is absolutely. hilarious, [laughter] isn't. And uh yeah, so I called it the shed at. Dulwich. I was living in a garden shed. in in London at the time. Yeah, genuinely. Um you had you had to put. like an address, so I just put the name. of the road. And it didn't didn't make. you specify. And I was like, "Well, no. one's going to know cuz I'm at the back. as well." So, So, you've got cover. Yeah, there's loads of people who Six. people who lived in the house, the main.

house, and then at the very back I was. living in a garden shed. Uh and then. what else? You needed like a mobile, so. I bought like a kind of drug dealer. phone from I love it. I love it. I love. it. Yeah. You need a website, and you need a. email, that was easy to do. And I made. this website with the help of my mate, so it was like all these photos on there. that looked like gourmet food, and it. looked like Michelin star quality food, but. the images were actually like cropped. versions of bigger images that like 6.

months later when this all went viral. and came out, I revealed was like one of. the meals that looked like a delicious. meal was like an egg on my foot. And. like another. >> [laughter]. >> And another thing. And another thing was like. >> all our lives? >> [laughter]. >> It was like, you know, these urinal. cakes you get, and that was. >> Urinal. Come on. >> [laughter]. >> Yeah. Made that look like a pan-fried. scallop. And like had it with food like a Yeah, it does. It does. Put some honey on. there. Uh some stones from a fish tank.

And like that was genuinely It was like. me and my mate Chris and shaving foam. That was it. So, sea foam like shaving. foam. It was me and my mate Chris who I'd been. working with for Vice. We used to have. loads of fun doing these weird pieces. And I was like, "Come over and do this. thing. It's not going to be paid." Cuz I. was doing this on my own time. Vice. weren't even aware that I was doing this. and for a while actually. Um. And yeah, that kind of we I sent all. this stuff off to Tripadvisor. The the. kind of concept behind the restaurant. was like. uh it was an appointment only.

restaurant. Like you can only get a. table if you were or you have to apply. and we'll like vet you and we'll see. what happens. Uh yeah, it was like. yeah, that was kind of the concept. The. the meal the. menu was like you order moods at the. shed, not meals. Like you have comfort. or whatever and it's all like. mood-based. Uh which was just I was just trying to. think of wanky things that would like. sound like. >> it is brilliant though because. you know, this is the weird thing about. a scam is often times a scam is more.

well-thought-out than a real thing. Yeah. Cuz I'm listening to this and I'm. like, I want to go to this restaurant. even though I know it's a scam. What. would cuz think about how many times you. go to a restaurant and you like actually. it's the mood that I'm looking for. Not the food. Like you can can I. specify? Yeah, I would like that. actually. >> Yeah, yeah. Uh yeah, I mean I That's a genius idea. Uh to be honest, though another one of. the things I was weirdly I haven't even. thought about this in a while, but like. I was also doing little reviews for a. for a like a a newsletter, you know,

like a what's new in London newsletter. They would send me to restaurants so I. was already getting a bit of a seeing. what it was like. I. remember going to this meal in um. in London at this restaurant and it was. like they it was a it was small it was. like a taster menu, but it was like but. it was like a 3D projection of like uh. Marco Polo like and it was so crap and. it was just like so all about the song. and the dance and stuff and like the. food you're getting like this much like. a a pea every half an hour and then.

you're back to watching Marco Polo dance. around your plate. >> Heston Blumenthal must never hear of. you. >> [laughter]. >> I think we'd make money. And uh and maybe a deposition. >> [laughter]. >> But like yeah, it was just so so I I. don't really have that kind of like. it was one of the many things I was. trying to do to make a living and. writing these [clears throat] food. reviews and it was sort of like exposed. me to the [ __ ]. >> yeah. And I was like Cuz so you just. compounded all the [ __ ] on this. thing. You're like cuz one thing on top. of this on top of this and top of this. >> satire and you'll know this from doing.

the day show and everything is like it. any good sat it has to be monkey see. monkey do. It has to be. it has to be [clears throat] what's. going on in out there in the world. Like. how do and how do we how do we take that. to its sort of illogical conclusion? Like what Okay, there's this this Marco. Polo restaurant. Uh. you know, it'd be even more interesting. if the the restaurant didn't exist at. all. But this is all I I had the. privilege now of thinking about this. project like this. At the time I was. just sort of putting it together and. seeing what would work and expecting it. to not work. So like I sent all that off.

like all the all the idea of it, the. concept, all that. Sent it off to. TripAdvisor and expected it to not not. work, you know, to not go live. But it. it went live. No vetting, no. verification. It's completely easy to. do. I was live on the website and that. was when I was like, "Okay, I suppose. I'll try and get some reviews for this. now.". So then I started contacting friends and. family. I hope you didn't call that. other guy. Which one? You know, Mr. Mr. bad review. guy. Oh.

No, he needs to be kept away from. >> [laughter]. >> He needs to be kept away. I think he's. spiritually the opposite to this idea. He sees it as his like great. cause in like. Uh he was a sweetheart, but. you know, horrendous to be around. But he yeah, so I just started having. people write these reviews and I was. getting family and friends roping them. into it. Implicating more people. Nice, nicely done. Nicely [laughter] done. That's another part. >> get co-conspirators. But I was filming little bits, you know, cuz I was mainly writing at the time. I.

wasn't doing documentaries yet. I only. went on to do those. So, I just liked. writing because it was really nice to. write something. It's just you It's your. voice. You have an editor. You. collaborate. And that's it. Whereas, when you're making TV, which I do now, there's 30, 40 of you, and that's great, but it's different, you know? It's. different. Um so, everyone's jumping in. Everyone's leaving these five star. reviews. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're going. up the rankings. Feels serene. >> wait, wait, wait. So, you start You. start going up on the Trip Advisor. rankings. Is this that moment where you.

go like, "Oh, [ __ ] we're onto. something." Yes. Yeah, exactly. It was. It was We were number 18,000 out of. 18,000 in London. And then slowly it was. like, you know, within about six weeks. we were up to number 1,400 or something. like that. And I was higher than my. local restaurants in Dulwich where I was. living, and I was like, "That's. bizarre." And uh but it felt like. nothing, and then one day the phone that. I'd bought for the The drug dealer. phone. The drug dealer phone calls, and. it's like an actual human on the other. end of the phone being like, "Oh, hello.

there. I know. uh I love the sound of your mood based. meal. Please, can I have an appointment. this Friday or whatever?" And it was the. first time that's a real person started. with parroting the mythology to me. And. um you know, I just said to them, "I'm. sorry, we're fully booked for the next. six weeks." Put the phone down. It. always gets them. >> [laughter]. >> But yeah, I mean, it genuinely does. It. gets me. Like, this is it. It's like I. could have easily been on the other end. of that phone. I'm not saying I'm better. than that, you know what I. >> all have that. That's what I mean. It's.

like it's so funny how that like it. always doesn't matter who you are. Yeah. Fully booked for the When you find out. the thing you want is like has been. overly wanted, and it's gone. You can't Now you can't stop pining. You. can't stop thinking about it. You know. what I mean? Yeah. Fully booked for the next six. weeks. >> was like my mantra from then on. Just. kept on saying it. Six weeks, six weeks, six weeks, six weeks, yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. And it was like, you know, started out cute, few calls a day. I was. getting emails. Then it's just start to. get Just keeps on going up and up and. up. And the people that you tell no to. are the ones who 100% will call back 10.

times, you know? And it's it was just. the momentum just started gathering, and. that would been So, that that's like 4. months in. Do you know what I mean? That's like been going on for 4 months. Slow drip of reviews cuz I'm doing it. while I'm having to make a living doing. other things like. uh it's not like my mom and dad are. paying for my rent and I can just sit. down. I'm working, and then I'm like, "Oh, I need to do I'm scamming.". >> [laughter]. >> Scamming and scamming. I like that. But like, you know, it was like it it it.

it just got more exciting the the more. the more it went on. Got more real. People like the local council being. like, "We want to relocate you to an. an area we're gentrifying at reduced. rates and all this stuff.". >> No way. Come on. People applying for jobs, things like. that. Like it was it was very it the. plot it showed how. >> The government is reaching out to you. >> Yeah. And offering you tax incentives. Yeah. But you don't exist. Yeah, I don't think. I exist. >> You Jake, can I tell you something?

>> You've exposed a lot about politics. >> This is my thing. >> and politicians. >> This is this is what I mean about you, Ubers. Like. you. I don't need I don't think you. understand what an impact you've had on. my life from afar because. you you are the reason like Ryan who's. like sitting here. Like Ryan we we'll. always like try find food try find and. Ryan's like a super foodie guy. But one. day. randomly Ryan was like I've started. doing something crazy and I think it was. like after this. He's like. we just go to a place. Mhm. We don't look at the reviews. We.

don't even look a place we just go find. a place near you. Yeah, walk in and eat. the food. Yep. And then afterwards look at the reviews. Interesting. >> You'll be shocked at how many times the. review doesn't match up. >> Yeah. with how you felt about the. experience. Yeah. Your personal. experience. >> Just your personal experience. But a lot. of that came from you because we were. like, "Wait, wait, wait, wait. If you can create a whole fake world of. the best food, then maybe there's also a. fake world of the worst food. Mhm. >> Right. Like maybe this place is getting.

[ __ ] reviews because people just don't. like its vibe, they haven't got the mood. right there. Just just walk in and eat. the food. And then the second thing you. did, like. and I didn't even know about the. government side of it is you just made. me realize. how much we all, all of it, like you. said, no one's sort of better, how we. all. are so easily. duped into accepting a version of. reality. >> Mhm. that we like willingly, you know what I. mean? Like every The fact that the. government contacted you and wanted to. give you tax incentives.

But had never been to the restaurant. >> Yeah. Never seen it. Had never seen it, had never seen a tax return, had never. seen nothing. >> Not. Then I'm like, how who else did they. move there? Yeah. That's what I'm. thinking. Cuz you know sometimes you're in a. neighborhood and then all of a sudden. there's random restaurants that pop up. and you're like, who how did these. restaurants get here? >> Yeah. You know the first restaurants to move. into a neighborhood. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And now it's just a bunch of Ubers, no. offense. >> [laughter]. >> Taking chances.

All the other all the other Jehovah's. Witnesses. >> [laughter]. >> So okay, so this thing So okay, now. you're at like the peak cuz I mean once. the government's calling you, it's it's. it's on now. >> Yeah, I mean I was getting called. constantly and and what the the. clientele starts changing from like. locals to then like tourists, to then. like uh influencers, uh different people. from like kind of who are high up. professionals like having their teams. reach out. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm calling on behalf.

of Yeah, I mean I think I can say it now. because uh I don't think they exist. anymore. But like Universal Studios. wanted to bring their teams at their. team over. Hey. >> Yeah, yeah, it was kind of I've never. I've actually never said that before, so. there you go. Uh and and it was like. it yeah, I it was fascinating having. like it and and we weren't even number. one by that. We were getting into the. top 50, you know, it was like and and I. think the thing is is like you said. earlier about we had loads and loads of. reviews. We actually didn't. We had we. just all of our reviews were five stars. And it there was the way the algorithm.

was functioning was like about almost. like it maybe it functioned like. momentum because I was doing it. part-time until it started getting. crazy. I was like, "Okay, this is the. best project ever. I need to land the. plane on this thing. Who knows where. it's going?". >> like, "I need to get into this. restaurant.". >> [laughter]. >> In six weeks. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Um yeah, and then it was just like one. of those things where uh I was in a. meeting actually with Vice as a we're. talking about another project they. wanted me to do and my phone kept.

ringing and I was like, "What the [ __ ]. is going on?" And I was. >> the lemon on them. Yeah. And I was like, "Well, actually, I've. been working on this other thing on the. side." And they were like, "Oh, wow, this sounds like a epic. >> Yeah, this sounds amazing. >> And I was like, "Well, I've been filming. all my me taking all the calls. I've. been filming myself. So, yeah, okay, it sounds good.". And I wanted to write about it anyway, but that that was the first time where I. was like, "Okay, maybe maybe I could do. on camera stuff as well." This could. this feels like it could be that. So, then they started I started thinking. about how I wanted to what what next? And I thought, "If I can get as many.

people as possible to leave reviews in. the next two weeks, maybe we'll make. number one. Maybe we'll maybe we'll do. that." It's like a final push. Then I started noticing things like. people were leaving reviews who had. never been there, who. who I didn't know. Never been there. Of. course, they've never been there. People. from some I'm I'm bringing my own cooler. >> This is this is how big it is, guys. Yeah, I know. It's it's just yeah. Do. you have a table for two in the next six. weeks? >> [laughter]. >> But like, yeah, there were people who.

were leaving reviews who I didn't make. leave the review. So, it was almost like. they said have the kudos of having been. there. Mhm. Um and so, you know, I. reviewed. >> were leaving five stars. >> Yes. Yes. Exactly. That's crazy, man. We have. we have a Now we've reached peak. >> Yeah. Yeah. And it was uh. yeah, that was sort of I think it was. November. 2017. That was then. And then we became yeah, the number one rated restaurant. Congratulations, man. Yeah. It was it.

was crazy. I was I was. remember checking the thing cuz we'd. gone up. We were like top three and then. we went down to number eight and I was. like, "Wow, what a story. Top 10.". >> Were you upset about the number eight? No, I was just like, "This is insane.". And then it was number one and I was. like, >> were happy. Then you popped. It was just. like. >> You're a local councilman. >> [laughter]. >> It's just like one of those moments. where you know that your life's changed. and it's not cuz it's such an insane. thing that would happen. For it to. happen was so crazy and so unlikely that.

I was like, "Oh, okay. This is This is. probably the craziest thing that's ever. going to happen to me.". >> think you you had maybe a little bit of. an impostor syndrome? Like you felt like. you didn't deserve to be there. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. >> [laughter]. >> You know what, You know what, Trevor? >> [laughter]. >> No, I did think No, I've worked hard to. get here. The [laughter] investment, the website, the burner phone. I mean, YOU DID ALL THE WORK. WELL, the. funny [laughter] thing is is like No, go. on. Sorry.

>> No, no, no, so so now Tipsin. So now now. this this is what I love because I. remember seeing the footage of the. people the the nights. Yeah. The night. itself. This was just like where I was. like peak. So. >> So what is it supposed to be? Opening. night? Yeah, well Yeah. >> this is where you've changed another. thing. I'll tell you what I've changed. in my life. This literally happened. because of you. >> Really? >> Literally because of you. And then you'll tell the story of the. night. So. >> [laughter]. >> when I order food now, especially like. in New York, but when I order food,

I'll go to a restaurant. Like I'll see. any place, whatever it is. Restaurant, strong to could take out, whatever it. food is. But now I cross-reference it with like. an actual map. So I'll go, you know, it'll be like. Eugene's rabbit cakes. >> Mhm. And I'll be like, oh, this place. looks good. But then I go to. Google Maps or whatever. And you look. >> And then I look for The address of. rabbit cakes. Yeah. And then if I. You know, on the little street thing, I'll zoom in. And I want to see this place exists.

>> Yeah. So you do a 360 Yo. Yo. Yo. Let me. tell you something. Try it. You're going. to see how many times the place doesn't. exist. >> It's It's that's true. You are going to. see. >> does. >> Yo. You're going to see how many times. >> urine cakes all over again? >> My friend, the place doesn't exist. Now. apparently they came up with a term they. call it ghost kitchens. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> you told me something about. >> doesn't exist. But the food does. Even. Even in South Africa, Johannesburg now, it's started as well. Yeah. I'll be. like, oh, this place looks good. The. food looks good. That's the main thing. It's got good reviews. And then I go,

but where is this? I'm like, I don't. I've never seen this place. Yeah. And. then I look. nowhere. And they also they do this. thing as well. They have three different. names for the same menu. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They'll be like, oh, you know, they'll try something. They'll. get the like Zuma, whatever, girls. And. then they'll something get millennial. guys. Whatever. They'll have different. marketing schemes and. >> Same with the same thing. Same place. >> Same menu. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Same place. And all of this changed because of what. you did. So tell us about the night. Cuz. Cuz now you you took it like I mean.

you went fully into this thing. Because The reviews is like, all right, whatever. But then you you're like, I'm. going to make a real night and people. are going to come to it. Yeah. It was I. mean, I lived in it. It was like a. pretty much a [ __ ] And uh it was, you know, it was Which was number one? It was number [laughter] one. It was. number one. And it was, you know, it. didn't look like the best restaurant in. London. It looked like just a shack. Um. and uh I kind of thought, you know, I'd. done so much and I'd proven this big. point about online reviewing and like.

this platform was able to be. manipulated. Wow, crazy. All these. people want this thing, but there's. almost like the the the most crazy thing. would be to now try and get away with. opening it for one night only and. serving sort of real customers real. food. Yes. So we, you know, had a plan. It was all just based around um. trying to control the environment, but. also So I basically had I had eight real. customers come in. I had a table of two. who had two locals who'd been trying to.

get a table for three or four months. Had a table of four who were from a big. fashion agency who who I actually still. can't mention because. they were happy. And then uh. >> [laughter]. >> Try having shaving foam on your wedding. old cake. If you'll be happy. That sounds like a Balenciaga picture. >> [laughter]. >> Uh. it's not them. Uh. but uh and then we had a we had a. uh two um. American newlyweds from from California. >> Aw. I know. I know. I know. I know. But.

they were they were like, "Oh, you know, they've been in they've been in Paris. eating on the banks of the Seine the. night before.". >> And then yeah, they were they were the. the final table of two. They were going. to be eating at the shed. So it's quite hard to like I want to. like. just. try and capture this in like the best. way possible. It was November. It was. basically yeah, it was basically seven. it was eight years ago. This is so. [ __ ] crazy. Um. and it was cold. It was kind of wet. So. I borrowed all of these heaters from my.

neighbors. I went around asking to one. of them to borrow these for the night. Got them a bottle of wine. Uh I borrowed. a my friend ran a cafe around the. corner, so I borrowed a load of the. tables and the chairs. Uh. and then I had half of the people who. were eating there were um my friends who. were pretending to. uh that everything I I served them was. delicious and that they'd been loads of. times completely normal. Uh one of my friends actually she who. now people might know her, but uh Lolly. Adefope she's in like Shrill. She's in. Ghosts, she's in um she was in the new.

Amandla Stenberg, she's she's so funny. But like the time she wasn't that famous. and she was one of the like local. celebrities who I had like she was she. was uh Yeah, she's one of the patrons. and uh. It was yeah, the plan for them was to. try and create the same psychological. space as Trip Advisor. You know, you. have people around you saying. something's great or that deny you your. own senses or that deny you your own you. know, and it I hired this animal handler. as well. So we had all these chickens. running around and the idea was that the.

the I mean we never actually did this, but the idea was that we said to all the. customers, you know, this is like. lobsters at a fancy restaurant. Like you. can you can. pick a chicken and have it and you kill. it live and Exactly. But the whole point. and I had a table of two two of my mates. eating on the roof on a table which. looked like bizarre it looked something. from a cartoon. But it was the whole. thing was like I was trying to. short-circuit their brain as much as. possible to try and make them not engage. with the reality of the situation. Yeah, I was like what what what's the.

I was trying, yeah. So the way I did it. as well is I met them on the street and. blindfolded them and walked them two or. three minutes down and then down this. garden path because I genuinely thought. if they'd have seen the front of the. house. >> [laughter]. >> and they'd see it they and and we had a. Oh my god, it's all coming back to me. now I'm talking about it. We had a. We had a DJ playing the sound of a real. restaurant as well. And he he had a and. he had a little sample pad that when he. pressed it it was the ding of a. microwave. And the reason was because. the food we were serving on the night.

was actually just microwaveable TV. dinners but made like ready meals but. made to look like Michelin quality food. So we put like edible flowers, micro. herbs on it. Um. And yeah, I mean it was like. it. Basically we. we opened for about 3 hours trying to. think of like a way of encapsulating the. vibe. It was It was It was. weird. Um and I'll I'll focus on the newlyweds, the the ones who were on their. honeymoon. Uh because we I remember they.

did they looked kind of like. uh they kind of slightly confused. But. uh I like came I brought them out there. like them their meal which was comfort. and it was like mac and cheese. basically, but made to look like fancy. mac and cheese. And I like uh my friend. Phoebe. who now weirdly again she writes on a. Ted Lasso. Uh Not anymore. I like. >> [laughter]. >> I like I like that it's like a super I. really do like that you created a from. this moment it's like a you know. spin-off. Yeah, it's like an Ocean's.

Eleven that then everyone [laughter]. went off to do their own thing now in. the world. Yeah, yeah, because at the. time it was like yeah. I don't even know. We were just like I. we were like this isn't going to work. Um yeah, and she she was like put it. down. She was like namaste and then she. like. she disappeared to part of the. restaurant. And we were watching. watching [clears throat] them on in the. in the late I remember looking at the. lady. So she's like this she's the new. the the bride. >> Yeah. And she looks at the food and she. was saying before she's a foodie, she. loves restaurants, she loves eating and.

all this stuff. She looks at the mac and. cheese through a a phone. And like pauses for a second we're all. just watching her and then she just puts. it away without taking a photo. That's. funny. >> And it was like I we I was thinking that. you know, this isn't people aren't. buying this. The jig is up. Mhm. Um and. it was actually one of the table of four. I was seeing them out at the end of the. night. We can you can ask more. questions. It's just this is how this. this is all this all coming to me. Um yeah, and the guy like. uh he would look he like didn't look.

happy and he put me to one side and he. was like, "So that about tonight um. now that we've been once, is it going to. be easier for us to book again next. time?". Which is like. yeah, it was. that was like How was that? Yeah, the. big moment that made me think, you know. >> Made you deserve number one. No, it just. made me think that we trust like online. hype more than what we put in our. mouths. Well, I trust all hype. Yeah. It's like we trust I mean. Yeah, that that whole.

You know what here's what I what I loved. about the scam is. you didn't make me feel like any of. those people were idiots. Mhm. Yeah. Do. you know what I mean? So even when you. watch the footage. >> when you see what's happening I. genuinely didn't think to myself "Ha, what a bunch of idiots." No, it made me. go. we take for granted how easily we all. are manipulated. We also take for. granted how we think of what is and what. isn't in society. >> Mhm. Yeah. And and we're all just you know what I.

mean? We're. >> Yeah. But but I you can take it to you can. extrapolate it to everything. So. politics is is a simple example. You know, people will go "Oh yeah, this. politician is really good, really. smart." And then if somebody says it. around you, then do you think that now? Or do you not think that the comments. that you see on your social media? What. are they making you think or not make. you think? So when you go down. like you know how sometimes I don't know. if you've ever done this. I'll watch a video or I'll.

see a post or you know, whatever it is. and I started saying to myself I don't. know where this came from. I started. going "What do you think about this?". before I went to the comments. Mhm. Because I I realized at some point I was. clicking on videos or posts. and then I would read the comments and I. realized the comments were slowly. shaping what I was thinking about it. >> 100%. Yeah, definitely. >> So I would watch a video that I would. think is funny and then I'll go into the. comments and people like disgusting. I. can't believe that this is not then I'll. be like yeah, man, that that's wasn't.

nice. I'll watch another video and. people you know, I'd be like oh man, that's I'll be like that's cool and. people would like this is so lame. This. is but I'll be like yeah, that is lame. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But you you don't realize how you how. it's actually happening to you. Do you. know what I mean? I think I think. there're very few people There's. obviously people on the fringes, but I'm sure like most people don't. realize that this is happening to them. Like you're saying the the yum around. you. Yeah. You sit at a restaurant. Yep. The person next to you is like Mhm. Oh. my Oh my god. And you're like, "What are.

What are they Oh, that looks good. What. are they [laughter] having?". You lean in and you're like, "Hey hey. hey hey hey hey hey hey.". "Excuse me, what I'm that guy, yeah. the. restaurant. If I'm undecided, I look at. what looks good from other people's um. table and I'll be like, "What What are. they having?" But also realize that if. you watch on YouTube, if something is. happening live and the comments are live. as well, reading the comments while. you're watching the content makes you. realize we're not watching the same. thing. Because also their comments are. influenced by where they find. themselves. Some people are watching.

from work, some people are just catching. the tail end of it, some people have. been watching, they're fatigued, and. then you're watching it going, "That. comment that you just made is totally. unrelated to what's happening now." But. everyone else who comments after it is. like, "Yeah, you must be right.". Although we're using fake names when. you're making comments, our opinions are. real. But they're not factual. Then it. gets interesting around how many I mean, I mentioned this slightly earlier and. it's 100% true how many bots are now. used on social media. Isn't it Isn't it.

like 40% now? Is it 40 or I don't know. the number, but it's every It's a. shocking number. >> I remember reading the other day. that about 40%. of all internet like comments and. activity is bot. And that How can that not shape your. reality? If [clears throat] like my one. review for the Greek restaurant in. whatever, Peckham, can influence. people's minds and my mind, then like. how can [clears throat] that not? 40% of.

everything we're reading is It's Did you. see that the other day where they. changed the They very briefly changed. the Twitter or X I'm not calling it X, Twitter policy so that. where you could see where the account. was based. Hm. You see this? I did not. see this. It was interesting, and loads. of quite prominent noisy accounts were. all just based in. India. And they were saying, you know, I'm. based in the US, or I'm in No, no, no, and then they changed it back. >> Oh, they put it back immediately. And it. was it was it was really interesting.

Uh and I think basically India, the. significance of that is a load of the a. load of the farms are in India. Um so. it's cheap, you know, loads of online. labor is based out in India, isn't it? Um. fascinating, absolutely fascinating. So. I was I mean, I just thought, well, there's bigger and better scams to come. No, I didn't think that. >> [laughter]. >> No, no, I I I No, I didn't think that. I. believed you. No, no. No, but but but but you're right. about that. And you know what This is. what I what I think about is like. in society.

we struggle with certain paradigms. because. you know, they they're not they're not. physical, they're not easy to touch, they're not Like I. let's say we found out and I I mean, we. still don't really do much about this, but if we found out that certain people, companies, actors, whatever were. poisoning 40% of our water. Yeah. Hm. We would act a certain way, and we would. think a certain way, right? For the most. part, yeah. People start putting. regulations into effect, they go, "Oh,

you're not allowed to do this, you're. not allowed to do that.". If we found out that people, companies, actors, what were poisoning 40% of our. air Yeah. we would start acting, we. would start You know what I mean? And I. know there's outliers, and people are. like, "Oh, but there's companies are. polluting." That's part of the problem. But we don't think about that when it. comes to our minds. Yeah. We don't think. about about it when it comes to this. thing that we can never see, and yet is almost more important than. everything else. in the world. Yeah. Yeah. >> Your children are online. Hm. 40% [snorts] of the stuff that they're.

consuming is poisoned. Mhm. And I'm not. saying the stuff that comes from other. people. I'm just saying like fake. completely poisoned stuff is going into. their heads. So, your little daughter's. on the phone, Mhm. 40% of the [ __ ]. that's coming to her is poisoned. Your. little son is on the 40%. Your. grandmother is on the Your grandfather, your uncle, your aunt, you like 40% of. the things you're consuming are. poisoned. Mhm. And yet we don't think. like that for instance should just be. like a rule in a way. You can be anonymous, but the way you.

where you're posting from should have to. be. >> Absolutely. Yeah. But I always think. it's going to be. the human weakness for the longest time. Any dilution to any poison is just. adding the human element. What do you. mean? Oh. >> selling something dangerous, as long as. you put someone in there, that's why. they had to put regulation for. advertising with cigarettes. People were. having such a good time smoking. >> Yeah. Then it was the same. Main state. was just like. the rest of your life. [laughter]. Then people were just having a good. time. The Marlboro Man. Yeah. >> All of this stuff. It was Once you put.

the human element, the danger, the. poison gets diluted because you think. this person is doing it, I could be. doing it. I could be having a good time. as well. And I think the scourge or the. opposite of what we're feeling with bots. is influencers. So, the bots can do exactly what the. influencers can do. But once you put a. human in it, is it really that bad? Because also I've seen the trend now the. content that influencers are taking is. not taken by the influencers anymore. It's more stylized. Now it's more. cinematic. They're actually featuring in. the ad where they were supposed to be.

doing it from their point of view. So, now you see all of them. Whereas before. you used to see their hands and their. feet and them interacting with the. product. >> Yeah. Yeah. But now I'm like, who's the. other person operating the camera? >> of the product. >> has become so great. And then these apps. I saw one It's funny you say that. Sorry. to interrupt you. So, I saw a video the. other day. um about this it it was just so good, man. There was a a video. and And it starts so sad. It's this it's. this TikTok. And. it's this woman and she's by her bed and.

you know that the caption reads that you. know the thing and and you know that. voice comes on and it's like, "Why why. you choose that person in your life?". >> Yeah. >> You know that voice? You know the voice. >> Do you know you know that personally, do. you? No, but it's the. >> [laughter]. >> But you know that voice. But you know that voice. CUZ THERE'S. ONLY LIKE THE TWO There's the two. voices, right? There's the one that's. like, "When I found out I was going to". It's that voice. The AI one. >> Yeah, that whatever voice. voices and. then there's the other one that's like, "These men were fighting their way out. of the plan." Yeah. But this one.

[laughter] was like. And you know that voice. I love that voice. >> of them. But who the [ __ ] THEY WERE. BOTS. >> [laughter]. >> IT'D BE SO FUNNY IF THEY WERE REAL. PEOPLE SOMEWHERE. You know there's. there's somebody like at a restaurant. and they're like, "I called for a table. for two.". >> [laughter]. >> "Could you tell me what time my. reservation will be ready?". So like. and in the video there's this woman and. she's by her bed and the caption reads. um like, "Be careful who you choose as. your partner because they will need to.

be with you in the toughest times, blah. blah." And she's like, "This is the day. I found out my dad died or the moment I. found out" something like that. And the. you you see her like she's like crying. by the bed and then her husband comes in. and like looks at her and then she like. sort of tells him, "Oh, I just found out. my dad died." And he you can see he's. like, "No." And then the video and he. embraces her and it's it's sad and it's. beautiful. And then it jump cuts to some. guy who's like, "Okay, okay, hold on. Hold on." He's like, "Who put the camera there?". He's like, "Who?" Mhm. "Yeah. Who was.

filming this? Did you put a tripod?". "Did he start filming?". >> Yeah. "What cuz you found out your dad. died. >> Mhm. in this moment. This You're saying that. you found out in this moment. >> Mhm. So when did he. How did this. And he was just punk like he was just. puncturing this world. This This thing. you're talking about. >> Yeah. Yeah. Where like. influencers now to your point, the way. influencers sort of started off started. off was from a very authentic place. Hey. guys, so I went to this place today.

Like you said, point of view and vibe. And then they became like a part of it. >> Yep. And then they started synthesizing. things and then you run out of content. so you got to like make the content. Now. you have to suffer tragedies, you have. to discover things, you have to fight, you have Do you know what I mean? And so sorry, go You get what I'm. saying? >> think that's what I'm talking about. I. think um. And the whole point was that it was. democratized, right? That was the whole. thing. It was like, "Okay, anyone you. know, I can just do whatever." Now it's. like Now it's almost like every single.

member of the public views themselves as. an influencer. Oh, that's fully what it. is. >> Absolutely. And and then there's a. There's these people above who get you. know, who get paid money to do who. actually get still get money from. brands. >> And also it's sold as almost autonomy of. some sort because you can name your. price. You can do it your way, but we'll. obviously have the last say of how it's. done. And then you can just put it out. there and you have no control of it from. then onwards. >> Yeah. Cuz that's what happens with. influencers. But when I realized what. Ring doorbell was because it's not. popular in South Africa, but it's. popular here. Yeah. I was thinking to.

myself there's only two ways that they. can sell this thing. It's either by. fear, break-ins, Yeah. >> how it can prevent a break-in and people. And they started with the ads like that. when people were shouting, "We're home! We're home!" You know? Yeah, yeah. And. but then I realized their other strategy. was um Amazon packages being stolen from. the door. Yeah. >> Right. >> And then all of a sudden Two steps. running away. Yeah, yeah. And people started finding. that funny and they thought, "Well, if I. have a package that gets delivered and I. want to make sure that Then I think to. myself, this.

These people are actors. Cuz the package is always explode before. they get to where they're going. No one. ever gets out of shot. >> You mean the when they fill it with like. confetti? >> Exactly. No, no, with paint. Paint, paint. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. >> But no one has ever gotten inside the. car and the thing ex- because that would. have been funny and genuine at the same. time. Right. But everyone is "We we we.". Then I'm like, "Oh, there's one way to. solve this thing." Yes. And the packages are unmarked. Who gets. an unmarked package delivered to their. door? But even just the pumping of viral. content from from did Ring doorbells.

that his package is being stolen is an. amazing advert for a Ring doorbell. You're so right. I've never even thought. about that. That sucks. God. Yeah. Have I punctured your reality? I I. mean, you constantly You are a puncture. in my reality. >> [laughter]. >> That's I mean, come on. I'll drink to. that. Yes. No, it's just It's like. >> [laughter]. >> I Yeah, I. Because I Because I understand that you. know,

living life is the paradox of what is. and what isn't all the time. So, I don't ever want to be one of those. people who goes, "Nothing's real. Everything's fake." Mhm. Yeah. Because. most things are sort of fake, and that's. a good thing. Yeah. Like like our names. are all fake. We respond to them, but that's not a. thing really. You know what I mean? Yeah. So, there's certain constructs that. society has to agree on for things to. Like a traffic light I'm always. fascinated by traffic lights. Yeah. Cuz. I go like it's just a color. I really.

I don't know. I swear on my life. I. don't know why I get I like get giggly. >> [laughter]. >> When I'm at a traffic light, and then I. go, "Guys, this is not real.". >> Yeah. Yeah. It's It's like it really. makes me happy when I see people stop or. go. Cuz I'm just like I'm like, "Yo, it's. Do you want to be People REALLY STOP. YEAH. LIKE WHEN I see a car screech to a. halt. Yeah. Cuz they're like, "Ah, the. light.". >> You just ruined that for me. That's. Yeah, but I'm like, but I'll never see. the same again. >> [laughter]. >> No, so so but society needs these. things. Mhm. Acceptable absurdity. Yes. Society functionally needs.

artificial constructs for us to. function. Language, religion, culture, all of these things. >> it. uh There's that book that Harold. Garfinkel book, in the '60s where he uh. something Studies of Ethnomethodology or. something like that where he uh he had a. lot. >> reading books in the '60s. You're going. to have to you're going to have to go. with you. He he No, no, no, he's exactly. what you're talking about. He's. basically he he's a I I I find academic. writing often really bad and really hard. to get into because it's just so dense.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. A lot of academics. can't write and they kind of hide hide. behind language to cover it up. But What. were we saying this shots fired What. were we saying this yesterday? You know, and that's not their job. >> No, no. be an academic. But you know. what I mean? It's like when I've got. like you know, you have writers who then. read all that and then make it like. something I want to read. But anyway, there's this book that he wrote, this. Harold Garfinkel guy, I think that's his. name. So he um and he just had a lot of. his students doing loads of really. absurd things that subvert I think it. was in New York maybe. uh subvert the um just like things like. the rules of waiting in line or going.

into a restaurant and I can't There's so. many they're very funny. They're very. funny, but now I think uh ethically. slightly dubious like I think as an. academic to do them. But like yeah, I. think that there was I think you would. might you might like it. I'll check it. out. >> Because it's just like it's. it's they're they're just they're just. very funny. It's funny. It's like oh. >> Which just breaks how you how you think. reality is supposed to work. >> all right, loads of students. He's going. to get all of his students to wait at. the same set of traffic lights. And the. whole day they're going to cross on the.

red on when it is don't cross. That that. would be like an experiment he might do. That's like an example that And then you. see what happens to the people around. them. >> Yeah, exactly. That's it. It's the. impact on the people around. >> where the tipping point is if one person. crosses at a red light. >> to follow or not? >> No one will. Two people, no one. Three, and then you get to a tipping point. where like the group does it and you see. a person go, "Oh, I guess that's what we. do." And they just like they just waddle. across with you. Yeah, yeah. And if you. all turn and go like, "What are you. doing?" THEY'LL BE LIKE, "AH!". >> [laughter]. >> BUT IT BUT IT DON'T DO THAT IN THE.

MIDDLE OF TRAFFIC. >> NO, BUT IT I I DON'T KNOW, MAN. I just I. just think like. Yeah, I think like the reality that we. accept or the reality that causes us to. fight, the reality that causes us to. hate other people, the reality that. causes us to think the way we think is. so fragile. >> Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Don't press anything. [music] We've got. more What now? After this. I did another I did another so I made a.

film a couple of years ago with Channel. 4, which is like part of the BBC. It's. like a It was all about Amazon cuz you. mentioned Amazon Ring doorbell. >> Oh, the urine? Yeah. Oh, I love this. one, man. Tell me about [laughter] it. This the urine I'll give you the. backstory and then you you got to tell. the So, remember a story came out. about Amazon workers. being so pressed in their environments. in the warehouses. Everything in their. environment was timed. Their their. performance was measured. They're. tracked across the floor. Some of the.

worst like working conditions in that. way, right? And because they weren't. unionized, no one could do anything. about this. It's a whole thing. Modern. day sweatshop. >> Yeah, basically. And like one of the. worst things about the story was the. drivers and the workers in the warehouse. would talk about how. their time was so. you know, like it would it was just like. like in a draconian way measured to the. to the finest degree Mhm. that they. couldn't even risk going to the to the. toilets. They couldn't go to the. bathroom. So, what they would do Yeah, what they would do is in the truck in.

the way out they would just pee into a. bottle. >> Exactly, yeah. And then just carry on. working. They no one would leave. No one. would So, yes, modern day sweatshop. And. then the story like blew up and I was. like the Amazon workers are peeing into. the bottles or And then Amazon was like. nah, come on. Yeah, we did. We did. Yeah, we. did. And it was we were just like what. the what the hell What did Amazon say? Like the cost of What does Amazon ever. say? Do you know what I mean? Come on. What. does These people they've never come out. and be like yeah, we make them pee. I. mean, you know [laughter] how it is, bro. Yeah, hopefully That's the. business. No, but like really. I wish.

one day a company would do that. Be like. yeah, and then what? We made them pee in. bottles. Then what? >> your package? Yeah, you get your. package. Man, shut the You know No, but. [laughter] they don't. They don't dust. it with a finger print. Yeah. Um They But they But they didn't They. They basically And they were like, "Oh, we're looking into the But it's not what. you This is No, this is fabricated. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah." But. anyway, so that was the story. Yeah. >> I now hand over to my my my favorite. scam artist in the world. So, I did the. So, basically I Yeah, I did this film a. hour-long special about Amazon a few.

years ago or 2 years ago. And uh it um. one of the things I did is I went and. worked in one of the warehouses, which. is near where I grew up in But But. Fakenham is one one of the. >> got the job? I got a job. Uh I worked. there undercover and I had a camera on. But how? You see, you I need you to. explain these things. >> This is. Can you stop WITH THE HOW ALREADY? >> [laughter]. >> YOU EVER HAD BLUE eyes and blonde hair? True. THAT WAS TRUE. >> [laughter].

>> IT'S TRUE. He's the one that told me and I. >> [laughter]. >> will never understand. >> Cuz can I tell you what's funny about. Uber's stories is in Uber's stories. he gets a job as part of a scam. He's. like, "Then there's someone else like, 'I just want the job.'". >> [laughter]. >> JUST HOW DID YOU GET the job? Uber is. the reason why Uber is the reason why. Idris Elba will never be James Bond. >> [laughter]. >> It never just work anywhere. Cuz he's white. Oh god. Cuz TV like.

>> Oh man. Are you white? Yes. Oh god. >> Okay, then. But you see, you You know. what I like about you? You're using your. privilege, my friend. You [laughter] see. this Cuz these experiments, we can't be. Eugene and I can't be messing around. now. No. Like, we We would go to an. Amazon factory. We'd be like, "I'm. undercover." And then 50 years later, we'd still be there packing. >> [laughter]. >> You got YOU'D BE LIKE, "WHAT HAPPENED, EUGENE? WHAT HAPPENED, TREVOR?" "I WORK. HERE, MAN.". YOU'D BE LIKE, "YOU CAN LEAVE. YOU CAME. on a It was a scam." "No, man. Jeff's. not going to be happy if we don't get. [laughter] these packages. Hold on.

It's true. >> [laughter]. >> It's true. It's true. No, you're. absolutely right. Like you're absolutely. right. Remember when I first started. doing stuff with Vice and cuz I grew up. somewhere that was 100% white basically. And the Beckenham was 100% white. >> Come on. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Come on. Come. on. >> like, you know, about half an hour away. in in in Redditch, she uses the bloke. Well, that's not even half an hour. 20. minutes away in Redditch. Really close. to where we grew up. We didn't I didn't. have a car growing up. We just I just in. the village is like, you know, there's a. big South Asian diaspora. Like and.

traditionally there was a there was a. Caribbean diaspora as well, but it's. sort of lessened over the years. More in. Birmingham. Um and uh. it was interesting having that. experience of having. um. of having my white privilege called out. for the first times in the comments and. stuff. And having grown up with as white. but without money, I was like, "My. privilege?" But That Can I tell you. that? >> up working. Yeah, yeah. >> but I was working. And now and and. particularly since I've moved here, I'm. like, "Oh, no." Like I've had to.

obviously completely. be educated in that by by friends, you. know, and and I just trying to get my. head around that. Um but yeah, it's. massive and I was an idiot for I wished. I was taught about that in school. Yeah, but here's here's the thing that's. complicated about it. I'm not an academic, but I fight with. academics about this all the time. I think some of these concepts, while true, are not explained correctly. to people. Yeah. You know what I mean? So, I remember. when people would talk like, you know, cuz some of these things become.

you know, in vogue. in moments, you know, like so white. privilege there was it really had its. moment. Check your privilege. Check it. at the door. >> Post your black square. Yeah, yeah. Oh, you post [laughter] that black square. You know what I mean? So, And leave a review. >> [laughter]. >> black square Yeah, five stars. Jerk. chicken, fantastic. >> [laughter]. >> Exactly. The guy Curry goat. Yeah. And I got curry goat. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They got They got on the fish and.

chips, one star. >> [laughter]. >> The um Yeah, yeah. The food was. terrible, but I understand why. Five. [laughter] stars. No, so here's here's. So here's what This is just my opinion, but I mean a lot of these things are. even the academic ones. Even And that's. maybe my first issue, by the way. Is. that a lot of the time academics will. make it seem like it isn't their. opinion. They distance themselves. You see what. I'm saying? >> Yeah, from from. >> So they they'll they'll put forth an. idea. >> Yes. And they work in a space where they. study and they would Research. Yes,

their favorite word. Yes, yes, but it is. an opinion. Yes. Right? It is an. opinion. It may be an opinion that holds. true for the most part, but it is still. an opinion. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, the argument I would have with people is. this. You may be right. You may be wrong, but. you also have to acknowledge the way. you're explaining this to somebody is. isn't correct, right? Because you make. it seem like it's a hard and fast rule. that is constant in every single. environment in the exact same way all. the time. Okay. So when people were. like, "White privilege, check your.

privilege, white. When I would talk to white people and. who would go The The thing that I saw. was people struggling with this There. were people who were like, "I'm poor. I'm homeless. I'm strugg. Where's the privilege? Right. Please, can you help me figure out where cuz I. would like to access it? I would love to. access this privilege. And the best analogy I came up with was. golf. Golf. is one of my favorite. like ideas for a sport.

Because even though golf is the most, you know what I mean? Like. It's the most like removed It's like. This is like elite. You've just. described that sport. You don't grow up. on a council estate playing golf. Yeah, because because it's like cricket in. India. Yeah, that's why it's Yeah, the. home because of the home of it. >> Exactly. Whereas cricket in England's. posh down properly posh and like and I. don't know about South Africa I'm. assuming. No, yeah it's like cricket. schools are the one of the best schools. Yeah, but cricket itself though in the. townships they play it as well. Do you. know what I mean? Yeah, not as much.

anymore but. >> Yeah, we have a huge South Asian. diaspora in England. No South well very. few South Asian Asian players play for. England. It's kind of insane. It's all. posh private school. Oh yeah, I mean but. that's who you know where you know. No, but it's just weird isn't it? Cuz. football has become democratic cuz you. like you know it's it's I think it kind. of always has been to be honest but. football is democratic whereas it's. interesting that like these old school. sports like cricket we're on a different. thing now. Go ahead. No, no, no just. like it's interesting the way I always. look when I'm watching cricket as a as a.

fan and I'm like new new players come. through great and I go and I I do this. every time Wikipedia what school for. [ __ ] sake. It's always like the top I. just want him to not be going to a posh. school. I just want him to go to go to a. normal school. Normal school they made. it. Just a normal state school. >> Oh man. Go normal state school. That's. all I want. >> So wait all the English cricket players. are like Most of them. It's about but. then the the really great ones are. always not posh kids but. This is my this is now coming in my.

coming in my like uh. My this is that that's the thing where I. mean this is a classic isn't it? But. we're obsessed with class in England. it's it's different. >> But you see now that comes back to what. we're saying about privilege. The loop of privilege is this. When you go. white privilege. If you're not careful you make people. think that that privilege attached to. your whiteness is a constant thing. Whereas you see like in golf they go to. your handicap. It's a very simple principle. It means. at your current position in the game.

this is how much we need to adjust the. game so that you have a fair chance. But that handicap can change. It can go. down and it can go up. All right? So. if you get good enough we're not going. to give you any advantage but if you get. bad enough, we're going to give you as. much as much advantage as you need. But. they acknowledge that the handicap can. change and I think that's interesting. >> The variable, yeah. So it's not because. I don't like that we make these things. seem permanent and constant regardless. of the situation you're in because class. and there was a there's a a writer I. wish I could remember her name was one.

of the most brilliant writers. We'll. just put her on the screen while I'm. saying this. Her name is Renee. Eddo-Lodge. Maybe, maybe, but she she. said something about she said the phrase. and I'll paraphrase what she said about. the US and many places. She said, "I. can't wait. for America to finish the conversations. about race so that they can understand. that they're just at the bottom of. discussing class. >> Yeah. Because race is a proxy for class. for most people. Mhm. Yeah. >> You know what I mean? It's shorthand for. class. >> It is shorthand. So it's like yes, black.

attached to being poor. >> Poverty. >> Yes, but it it does not mean that black. itself will always be the thing that. suffers. It means that poor will always. be the thing that suffers. >> Yeah. Yeah, I would say that just having an. accent I have a subtle accent but I've. lost it the more time I've spent in. London and the more time spent nine. years in London. I've been here for two. years. Um but like uh it's interesting. um just to how obviously here it's like. you know, I'm just an English guy. >> Yeah. And a white English guy, but I'm.

an English guy. >> yeah. But it's like in England, you. know, you you're you're always where. what class you grew up with. You know. what I mean? It doesn't matter how much. money you have really. >> I can assume even like the way you say. class, I'm sure people are like mhm. >> [laughter]. >> Mhm. Are you sure you can afford this? >> Yeah, right. Like yeah. >> No, it's true though. >> Yeah, but you're you're either part. you're either part of the I mean you. like you know, you're either part of the. the say 4% of the population in the UK. go to private school and they. they represent most of the executive. positions in all the companies. Yeah.

And now they're getting into. entertainment which is fantastic as. well. >> [laughter]. >> Love it. Let's keep Let's have that. That's fantastic. Uh but like you know, you're either want. to So basically it's like and then they. have you have hereditary positions of in. the government the House of Lords. You. have a lordships that you can inherit. all that stuff. So we still have like a. proper proper. >> classes ruling class proper ruling. And [snorts] that's like um. I probably English people watching this. now would be like [ __ ] you you know. whatever it's changed or whatever but I. don't think it has and I think that like. It will never change.

>> here is it's crazy how it's a different. system as as you said race plays a much. much much bigger part of it. You said. race is a proxy for Yeah but yeah but I. would argue in the US what happens is. money becomes the class like so So what. happens is yes race is a big one. But then one of the tools that can help. you is money and not. and not necessarily the position of it. but the access that it gives you to. things. So if you if you are in the.

business class lounge right there's. going to be an element but still your. race might be the difference where like. let's say you walk ahead of me into the. business class lounge you'll just you. might just walk in. And then when I walk. in someone will go excuse me are you. business class? You know what I mean? Now but now because of maybe fame. someone be like oh of course Mr. Noah. come in. Like recently when when we were. in Australia this was so funny cuz. here's here's my thing I I wasn't in. Australia. Yeah he he wasn't. >> as in We so me and the crew in Australia.

The royal we The royal we I was I was. there by myself. >> [laughter]. >> No so we were we were in we were in. Australia and I was on tour there. And. there's moments where I think you know. what I'm saying. There's certain racisms or. whatever you want to call it prejudice. or where you just have to laugh at it. and poke it. So we're standing in and it's very. distinct. We're flying Qantas Airlines that's. really how you get around Australia in.

that way. Yeah. And I think we're flying. out of Perth. And it's myself. and my two friends from South Africa. So, it's me, Ryan, S'bo. So, here we. are. And we we're standing together in. this line. And then the promoter, [clears throat]. Sebastian, he's with us. So, Sebastian's. the only white guy. All right. So, we're all there together. But, we're together in the line. >> Mhm. Airport's basically empty. We're in the business class line. Right?

Confidently in that line. It's clearly. marked and we're in it. >> Do you have the business class line. cockiness of headphones? No, not even. I'm just We're just there. >> Okay. >> Away suitcase. >> Yeah, away. >> [laughter]. >> The cockiness of business class. One of. one of the employees comes over. She. walks up to us. Walks past Sebastian. That was the key. thing. Walks past Sebastian, who's like. in front of us. Says nothing to him. Comes straight to. me and then goes, she's like, "Oh,

excuse me. Oh, this is the business. class line.". Oh, god. Yeah. And then I said, "Yes. Yes, it. is.". And then she just stared at me cuz now. she was hoping that I would now do the. whole like, "Oh, sorry. I'm not in" But, I was I was just enjoying it so much. I. was like I was like, "Yeah." And then. the way I said it I was I was like, "Yes, this is the business class line.". >> [laughter]. >> And then she went. Picked the wrong guy "Are you Are you in. business class?".

And then I was like, "Why else would I. be standing in this line?" Who's asking? Then she's like, "Oh, all right. I just was I wasn't sure. if you were in business class.". Then I was like, "I don't know if this. guy's in business class. Let's ask. [laughter] him." And I pointed. But, she. didn't know that I knew Sebastian. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, I'm just pointing. at this random white guy. Then I was. like, "I don't know if he's in business. class. Yo, are you in business class? This is a business class line.". >> [laughter]. >> And then she's like, "OH, YEAH. I'M SURE. he's in business class." And I was like, "Well, I'm I'm not in business class.". And then you could see she just like she. had this moment where she was like.

So those are moments where I go. Yes, you know your money may be a favor. It happens in your building all the. time. My man, all these things all the. time. But yes, but what I mean. No, no, for sure for sure for sure. That's that's But that's what I mean is. like I feel like what we don't do enough. of is the handicapper analogy is really. is really good. Yeah, we don't we don't. we don't we don't discuss these things. dynamically. And then and then we live.

in a world where and maybe the bots. don't help, right? Is that we don't get. into a position where we can then. discuss it as people and say. Okay, so when does this happen and when. doesn't it happen and how does it happen. because otherwise you're just going. like, "Hey man, white guy, you're a. superhero. Nothing can go wrong in your. life." And then white guy goes, "Well, a. lot of [ __ ] I I don't have a job. I'm. living in my mom's basement. Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah. Times. are tough. >> [laughter]. >> Times are tough.

>> [laughter]. [laughter]. >> That's really good. Then So now we we we're like. You know what I mean? And and and so So. what I what I This is part of what I. like about your work is sometimes I. think as people. the. the academic discussion of ideas limits. us. because it it it's like how do we see.

the world? How do we think we see the. world? How do we want to be seen to be. seeing the world? How do people see us. seeing the world? How do they respond to. how we see the world? How do we see them. seeing It's too much. It's too much. But. then when you conduct it as like a just. an experiment as a thing that people do, you just do it. Yeah. Yeah. It it it First of all, I feel like it. removes the lens. So we're watching people leave fake. reviews or write fake or come to a fake. restaurant. We're watching We're. watching people You know what I mean? So, like your your Amazon thing, which I. want you to talk about because it's it's.

it's sort of goes into this world. >> Yeah. It's one thing to write an article. about, "Hey guys, Amazon doesn't really do a good job of. protecting you as a consumer, as a. customer. They They're really. unscrupulous. Yes, they're convenient. Yes, they're great. Yeah. But, you know, at the same time we have to ask. ourselves If these people. You can go into that foreverness. Or, you can just sell urine on Amazon. But, but I think that. >> sell Amazon workers' urine on Amazon.

And prove that it exists. >> Yeah, but and and it it makes such a. Yeah. >> Sometimes I feel like the, you know, It's It's trying to Yeah, all. [clears throat] it's trying to do is. it's sort of. trying to figure out like what is a It's. essentially like that same thing of like. what is a symbol or a Often in like in. in the world like the stuff that catches. on and the stuff that actually starts. changing people's minds or something is. like just a really simple symbol. Yes. Like something I I remember when This is. a an example you guys won't won't know,

probably. Well, I guess we're black. >> [laughter]. >> I'm sorry, I. I'm sorry, I I I just had. And you were waiting. I WASN'T WAITING. YOU HAD THAT IN THE CHAMBER. You were. like, >> [laughter]. >> You were like, "Oh, yeah." There we go. I got you, little Uber boy. I got you. Any move. >> [laughter]. >> You know what? You were waiting. >> he says. >> Next THING HE SAYS. BECAUSE I'M BLACK. >> YOU COULD HAVE SAID ANYTHING. >> [laughter]. >> ANYTHING. ANYTHING. ANYTHING. ANYTHING. You could have said that. And if Eugene.

was ready with the. >> Yeah, yeah. Ready with the table. >> [laughter]. >> Yeah, Eugene was ready with YOU. >> THE BLASTER. YEAH, EUGENE WAS READY WITH. YOU. >> [laughter]. >> OH, MAN. I had a great time with YOU. GUYS. BECAUSE I'M BLACK. >> [laughter]. >> OH, MAN. I DIDN'T THINK HE WAS GOING TO. SAY THAT. OH, MAN. I surprise myself sometimes. >> [laughter]. >> No, there was a guy There was this There. was a politician when we when we anyway, whatever. He was a Labour politician. He. was a guy called Ed Miliband. He. I remember Ed Miliband. Yeah. His whole.

thing he looked like he was going to. become the Prime Minister. This was. like, you know, after 5 years of like. bad conservatives and Lib Dems. And he. ate a bacon sandwich badly. And then it was like it was all It was. done. It was done. And it was almost. like that encapsulated he was this out. of touch, you know, whatever. And it was like, you. know, the Sun that printed it, which is. a like, you know, rag that Rupert. Murdoch Rupert Murdoch is a uh. runs [snorts]. >> One of those conservative tabloid, yeah. Yeah. And yeah, he printed like a. picture of him eating a bacon he's been.

struggling with a bacon sandwich and it. was kind of over. It was It was bizarre. I remember that was stuck in my head. It. was like there's a million examples of. that if you like you're probably sitting. and thinking of one. Uh there was one. where. >> Mini Mike was one that Trump did to. Bloomberg. They just killed it. >> Yeah, that one destroyed it. >> Yeah. But there's also one where. uh who who eats the pizza with a knife. and fork in New York? They were running. for president. Was it Was it Mitt Romney? Maybe it was. I don't know who it was. >> over just like that. Pizza. Pizza Have you ever seen the ad but this. is a completely off topic. Have you ever.

seen the advert where Trump eats the. pizza backwards? It's insane. Can I tell you that's why I. think Trump doesn't eat anything in. public anymore. But he eats it eats it. backwards. This I'm going to go look at this now. because I. >> insane the pizza advert now. >> [laughter]. >> I actually didn't think of that. Thank. you. We're not the BBC here. I actually. need to see this. We're free free. wheeling. I need to see this. It's very. bizarre. You know what what sucks though. is like now in like a few years all of.

these things will become boring cuz. people like oh that's probably AI. Uh. images uh yeah. Yeah, you're right. >> losing that now. Yeah. Um Should I. >> backwards Should I carry on with piss? Yeah, tell us the. Tell us Tell us how you sold urine. >> segue. >> [laughter]. >> While he While he While he pulls it up. >> Yeah. I'll I'll Tell him cuz he knows the. story. I don't know. I'll help your. appetite. >> [laughter]. >> While I prepare the pizza. While the. backwards pizza is in [laughter] the. oven. I'll prepare you a an an aperitif.

Yeah. [laughter]. I love that word. >> Yeah. Aperitif. Yeah. Sounds better than. palate cleanser. Yeah, there there it. is. >> sounds like mouthwash. I feel I I hope I. haven't got this wrong. There it is. Wow. This is crazy. It's an. interesting image. Yeah, look at that. He He He survived. it. It almost helped him. Yeah. Eee. >> [laughter]. >> That's what he says before he eats. pizza. I love pizza so much. Give me my slice.

>> [laughter]. >> It's funny, man. Is that how they do it. in Queens? I mean. >> This is. >> [laughter]. >> Yeah. This is a person who's probably. never eaten pizza or like just lived in. another world. And he's like, "Yeah, regular people do it like Is this how. you do it?" I do it all the time. I do. it all the time. >> [laughter]. >> You end with the finger. Bizarre. Yeah, so basically I went worked at this. warehouse. I got a job there. Didn't keep the job. Was I was.

I worked there a few days cuz it was the. closest warehouse outside of the one in. Staten Island. Okay. >> To unionize them. We went and worked there. We'd heard all. this stuff. And now I was working with. like Channel 4, which is like the BBC, public service broadcaster. It's like 6. months of legal work to get in there. with a camera, you know. It's not I. can't just like start writing reviews. Now I'm working in TV, it's different. Um So, we had to prove wrongdoing. We. had suspicion of wrongdoing. We went in. there eventually. It was crazy. It was. like this dystopian.

like you got have airport style security. scanners you have to go when you come. off the warehouse floor. And I I worked. back in Studley near Feckenham. I worked. a car factory. It was nothing like that. You know, there's a level of respect. that you have in it when you're working. in a warehouse even. In Amazon, it was. >> Yeah, it's just like they scan you like. you're like like you don't know, going. to through. TSA or whatever every time you come off. the warehouse floor. And um. they monitor you, so you have this score. that that this is what happens. They. they they everybody on the you have this.

thing that's connected to your account. and the more you scan and the slower you. scan, the worse your score is, basically. Um what else was there? Oh, there was a there was a another worker. who actually went public after this, but. didn't want to go public in in the film. Um who left had a it was a couple weeks. before I got there for I start working. there, had a heart attack on the. warehouse floor and then was I had to. leave in an ambulance to the hospital. and then got a warning, formal warning. for leaving work early. It's crazy,

absolutely crazy. And. uh yes, it's this sort of dystopian. thing. I got caught on the third day, so. I'm recognized me for my other work and. pulled me to one side and they were. like, "What the [ __ ] are you doing. here?" And uh I got pulled off there. And. uh yeah, it was it was interesting and. then basically I wanted to do something. about the workers. I wanted to come up. with a stunt that would cut through and. would would have a a level of impact. So. I I was hanging out outside a lot of the. fulfillment centers and noticed there. were bottles of piss everywhere outside. of the fulfillment centers. I was it was.

initially I spotted them in uh Glendale. Uh just the one, the closest one in LA. In California. Yeah, yeah, yeah, just in. LA. And then I was in I did it in London. at the one in Queens. Every single one. I've been to and I I probably say. exactly the same, there's bottles of. piss outside all over the world. Um and. I stopped, spoke to drivers and they. told me that this was them and the. reason why it worked that way. I stopped. someone else and she was a manager who. had dispatch manager who manages the. drivers and she said. the way it works is if you have 10 bo-.

if they catch you, you come back into. the after your shift. with a bottle of piss in your car, then. you get a point against your name. >> No, man. And if you get 10 points, you're in trouble. So, the what they do. is as they're driving back in, they. chuck it out the window cuz they think, "Okay, right. I need to get rid of it or. I'm going to get in trouble.". So, what I did was sort of like I. collected a load of the bottles of. urine, repackaged them as like a one of. those kind of new influencer energy. drinks called release energy. And and.

then I actually. >> Release in virgin. >> [laughter]. >> Blood and okay, so So, I No, no, then I. put it on I put it on So, yeah, we we. another thing as well was we spoke to. female drivers who got UTIs from holding. it as well. Like so, guys pissing. [clears throat] bottles, they would get. UTIs. And then listed it on Amazon as a. drink, said what it was on the label, didn't didn't hide what it was. I was. like, "This is bottles of urine. collected from Amazon drivers." And then.

I made that in the same way that I kind. of did the restaurant cuz I knew it. would be a story if it worked. Again, I. didn't know it would work. I thought it. would be flagged cuz it said urine urea. on it everywhere. It was listed as a. drink as an energy drink. And I made it a number one drink on. Amazon. So, it's literally a number one. drink on Amazon on the platform. It. became this big story came out and. massively viral again. It was covered. everywhere. But what it meant is that. people were talking about this story. that if it was honestly reported. >> exactly what The model that you guys.

have at the show had at the show was how. do you make people talk about this. thing? How are you going to break the. spell of like cuz Amazon's an the way. they run that the user experience as a. as a customer is amazing. Yeah, it's. flawless. So, it's like how do you break. the spell a little bit? And I never once. in the film said, "Delete your Amazon or. whatever." It's like, "No, no, let's. just like make people think about this. thing.". >> [snorts]. >> It ended up being like a Yeah, it was. crazy and you know, it ended up going viral that stunt when. it came out and um it was basically.

exactly what I I wanted it to do, you. know. And I had this other whole thing. about uh. filling in potholes at Amazon's expense. as well. Uh like I basically. noticed how Amazon, you know, don't pay much towards taxes. essentially. They They do like avoid a. lot of corporate taxes. Like in 2020. they paid zero in corporation tax in the. UK. So I I I I thought, you know, Amazon still uses the infrastructure. that the our taxes pay for but they. don't contribute they don't contribute.

to its growth and maintenance. >> Yeah. All fair fair play Amazon, make. your money, do your thing, you got to. pitch in. And like how quick can Amazon make a. Prime delivery without the roads that. our that our taxes pay for? >> Yeah. So what I did is I ordered a load. of cement from Amazon and then I went in. filling potholes around in California. and then the UK and and uh filled them. filled them in and then I went down to. the beach, filed for a refund, filled. the packages with sand and then And then. sent it back and they just gave you your. money. They gave me my money back and I.

remember telling in the film that I made. about this I tell my lawyer and he's. like that's not clever, that's just. fraud. It's fraud. Where were you. Finally. MY WHOLE LIFE. >> [laughter]. >> EXACTLY. THE camera doesn't matter, you've committed fraud. But basically what I'd done and this is. kind of this is this was to make a. bigger point was I before I did any of. that I went and I made a an offshore. company in Belize that has very secret. privacy privacy laws. And I made a an. Amazon business account for that company. and then so technically the the the.

crime was committed by this offshore. company in Belize. It was an offshore. offshore issue which is the same. mechanic that Amazon uses to avoid. paying taxes. It's like the same set. This is man. So yeah, I managed to get. around getting in trouble by using the. same way that they avoid paying taxes. And uh. yeah, the name of the company was Hole. Maintenance and repair corp which as an. acronym is HMRC which is the British. IRS. Um but yeah, that was like. it.

you know, that's like that film two. years ago, the first one we talked about. eight years seven eight years ago. You know, in that time you have to. that's sort of I suppose maybe captures. how slightly the works moved on. Do you. know what I mean? Like you're kind of. slightly trying to. I don't know. It's a similar thing and I. think that the world has changed a lot. in that time. I think that like now where it used to. be that that you know, I was creating. these things that were like fictions. that would somehow almost go up to the. line before they go they cross it. You.

know, I opened the shed for one night. only. When we opened the shed for one. night only, uh there was a a company in. Dubai wanted me to open up the shed in. Dubai and to make it a real restaurant. chain and all that stuff. If I'd have. wanted to, if I was just making money, I'd have been like well, screw the film. This is. >> [snorts]. >> this is time for a a chain of. restaurants called the shed and get a. lot of investment, whatever, burn it, what make the take some money, do. whatever. That's one of the more recent. projects you've started working on that. I think has. has also given me a.

a clearer view of how. how fragile the money ecosystem is that. we live in. You know, cuz like. it's also it's another insane project, but you basically set yourself the. target of making Was it a million. dollars? A million pounds, yeah. It was. 1.3 1.3 million dollars. In 90 days. 90. days. Yes. But you but you it has to be. legal. Yeah. And it had to be. >> Yeah, that's right, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so. this came out this two months ago. This. is the latest film for British.

television. But what it you know, that. film what it it was a kind of reaction. to. uh. hustle culture, you know, and like how. much of our cultural oxygen is just. around making money. And how much of that, you know, So here's what I what I what I don't. like is. and this happens with. various different fields and spheres, you know, it's. when people talk about hustle culture. it's now been.

co-opted by a group of people who sort. of cuz hustling was a thing that a lot. of people did in like a really. meaningful way. I I know it sounds crazy. to say that, but it's like a lot of. people hustle. Do you know what I mean? [clears throat]. You you. Yeah, you hustle. Do you think your. parents hustled? You Hustling was like I. got to I got to hustle. I got to. Really what this this is is like it's. scam culture. It's not hustle culture. It's scam culture. It's how can you make. as much money as possible. as quickly as possible. As quickly as. but also most importantly most.

importantly. with somebody else being the victim in. some way, shape, or form. Are you. selling some sort of online course? Are. you getting people to invest in a thing. that will never pay money back? Are you. you know what I mean? That whole. And this is the thing that you you have. 100% right. And I think that the thing. that as I said from the start of when I. started doing what I was doing to now. the whole world's changed. And now we. are living in the fake reality. Like we. are all we're all dining at the shed. We're all eating the microwavable ready. meals. We're all eating my egg on a.

foot. Like the way that I see I look at. the stock market the biggest eight. companies. How many of them actually. Nvidia apart from them they make chips. How many of them the the the value of. these stocks now. I've no semblance to reality. It's like now the everybody is making a. shed. And it's all it's it's all been. the whole economy has been remade. No. one's actually making anything. So it's. like when you were saying about. you're exactly right about the culture. of these money the hustle culture thing. is the grift is taking place when you.

are convinced that this person can lead. you to the promised land of financial. security. The moment like my mom and dad when we. were kids were. we a lot of money in a pyramid scheme. Well, not a load, but enough that it was. significant in our house. And uh, a very. popular one um, which everyone would. know. But like, that um, that like kind of made me kind of a. little averse to those types of things. when I hear about constantly having. people say, "Oh, you should buy into. this crypto coin.

Buy into this uh, this this um, you know, this uh, course that can help. you make a lot of money and make you. rich or whatever." I've always thought. destruction of the way that a lot of. people a lot of people are monetizing. their audiences. is [snorts] like they're selling them. hope, as you say. >> That's that's the that's the biggest. thing for me is like. it and they they do a good job of. conflating it with. the hard work that people are doing and. the. cuz what what they do is they're really. good at I find they're really good at. hiding in crowds is the way is the way I.

like to think of it. Yeah. So, what. they'll do is they go like, "Oh, so what. are you saying? There's something wrong. with making money?" It's like, "No, no, no. No, no, no. You slick. I'm not. saying there's anything wrong with me. Are you saying it's wrong to sell. things? I'm not saying that. Are you. against capitalism?" I'm not saying any. of these things. What I'm saying is. you are running scams on people, right? I ask people this all the time. When you're going to go to a course. where someone's going to teach you how. to make money, >> Yep. ask yourself where they get their. money from. >> Exactly. Exactly. Right? I'm not saying.

don't go, but ask yourself where they. get their money from. If that person. gets all their money from you. >> from you. >> Yep. telling you how to make money. >> Mhm. Yep. But. they aren't going off and doing the. investment things that they're they. aren't they're making their money from. you. >> Yeah, it's like getting a financial. advisor once you're successful. You're. like, "Where was the advice. >> [laughter]. >> Yeah, it's like all of these things if. if if we're not careful. is But it is true. There it is. It's. fully that. It's like it's like it's. like the the and it has become it has.

become way more scammy in in that world. But then. the art and craft of hiding in the crowd. is then making it seem like it's like. the all of us. >> Yeah. So what are you saying? We. shouldn't It's like, no, I'm not saying. don't advertise the thing as a But you. don't act like you did use it. Yeah. Don't act like you You know what I mean? Don't act like you There's certain. things where you're like, "Yo, man, at. what cost?". The crypto thing's fascinating. Making. this film, so it was literally a follow. doc. A lot of the stuff I do is way more.

like I'm like it sounds a mess, but I. mean the the shed thing now, but like. the Amazon thing, planned out. I know I. know what I'm going to do. You never. know you're going to get caught at when. you're working at Amazon on the floor. and they pull you off and say, "What the. hell are you doing here?" You should. have been like, "Man, my life fell apart, man.". >> [laughter]. >> Before you kick me out. >> Before you kick me out. Can I use the. toilet? You know what's funny is after they. after they kicked you out, you got a you. got a notice on your record. They're. like, "Left early.". >> [laughter].

>> I remember getting loads of emails from. them saying, "Why haven't you shown up. to work?". >> No. >> [laughter]. >> I remember saying I I said to like cuz I. had to get training to do undercover cuz. I was like this guy's a basically a uh. a a bullshitter and we're letting him do. a journ a proper journalist job here. Like we're training him. And I was like, "If I get caught, can I just say I'm. doing undercover boss?" And just say. Congratulations. [laughter]. Congratulations. You did it. You did it. You are promoted. They found you out. It took you a while,

but you found me. They were like, "We. are going to rescind your permission to. do this." No. >> [laughter]. >> But uh. yeah, so uh coming back. Yeah, so that. that doc, the one about making a. million, you know, you follow me around. for 90 days. The thing that I just kept. on getting thrust down uh cuz it was. it's basically I moved to New York while. I was making that. It's reacting to. being in New York. It's a very unique. culture, I think, in terms In in what. way? Hustle. Just hustle. And the way. and that comfort with which people and I. don't even necessarily mind this, but. it's it's very different to Europe. The. way people talk about money, the way.

people breathe money, the possibility of. money, the way it moves around. You. know, you meet someone, you know, one of. our main contributors in that is the. co-founder of Venmo, his guy Ikram. And. within 10 minutes of meeting him, he's. like, "We're making a company together. It's. worth $10 million already." And I'm. like, "What?" Like, what is this guy talking. about? But like, he's made Venmo, so. clearly he knows what he's talking. about. Yeah. And then, you know, in the. time that I I know him throughout the. thing, he tries to say to me, "You. should make a cryptocurrency with me.". I said, "I don't know, man. You know, I'm don't like that stuff. I don't I.

don't love it. Um not saying it's bad, just personal, you know, personal. Just. have a little bit of an aversion to it. He asked me to get involved in a coin. with him. And then if if I'd have. invested in that point, we tried to. factor this and it's tricky. But um he. basically the coin that he asked me to. get in with him on was like. uh ended up becoming This isn't easy to. factor. Um the number one trending meme. coin on the planet for a day. Like, $250. million. this thing did. And it was like if I and.

I think the thing that I can't factor, but he said if you'd have put in $500. that day, you'd have made a million. And it was just like one of those things. where I was like, Yeah, but But you see the the the the. sentence that isn't completed is This is. This is what I like about these money. stories. They say you would have made a. million. Right. What they should say is. you would have taken a million. Right. Right. Right. Right. >> That's my issue with all of these ideas. >> no way you made it. Yeah. >> Yeah, because you you you didn't make. the thing. >> It comes from somewhere. Cuz if we look. at like. >> that that's 100% right. >> But you get what I'm saying? No, no, I. know. I know. People make it seem like.

The reason I would say people used to. use the phrase you're going to make. money is because really it was an. exchange of a service of a good, of a. service of a good. All right, I need a. leather shoe from you, Eugene. You need. oranges from me. And we're going to use. money to help smooth over this product. It makes It makes sense. >> It's a promise. >> Yeah, but then at some point it became. I'm saying this is worth this. I'm going. to take all of you guys' money. It's. going to be worth this for a moment, and. then it's not going to be worth it. Instantly overnight. All I've done is. I've gone.

and then sucked in all your money. Yeah. It's true. I've just sucked in all your. money and now it's gone. >> that exists within that coin is stuff. that other people who have also had hope. of putting in that Yeah. >> they put it in. Yeah, it comes from. somewhere. >> That's the That's And that was like what. might happen to my mom and dad when we. were kids. It's the same thing, you. know, it's the same thing. So look, I'll. be honest, I have no regrets. I would. rather not have that money and that. sounds high and mighty, but I just. wouldn't like I just. >> Ah, but also those things are shortcuts. to jail. Well, well, [laughter] well. No, you never know though. That's true. though. I mean like now people are. getting pardons and now people are Yeah,

but. Those things are all temporary. They. genuinely are. I think they're all. temporary. It's a shortcut to jail at. the end of the day. That's like See. that's like Cuz when do you stop? Yeah. It's true. You put 500 in and you make a million, why would you not put in the next. 500,000 to make 10 million, 100 million? When do you stop? And then we wonder why these guys get to. that point. It's because along the way. Like you know how to stop. Yeah, there's. no need to stop. You don't need to stop. You don't need to stop. You don't need. to stop. And then at some point you're. just like, "Oh, do it." But it exists as a the way that.

the it's regulated now is exists as a. sort of loophole, isn't it at this at. this moment in time? It didn't a year. ago. >> Yeah. It's changed. They've now it's now. not a security. Crypto's not a security. So it's regulated by some other some. other regulatory body that has like one. guy one guy at desk. It's just a guy who. vibe just vibe checks it now. He just sits there and he's like, "Cool. Not cool." Puts his finger in the water. That's all right. So So Yeah. What would. you say your. your dream and your Cuz.

Like when I when I when I read how. people have tried to categorize you, people call you a prankster, people call. you a. But I don't know. You know and I don't. want to put too much weights on this. I. feel like. it's sort of evolved in your world and. now. there's like a mission behind it in some. ways. >> Mhm. What would you What would you say you're. trying to achieve with these films? When. when somebody's watching them, what what. are you hoping to reveal or what are you. hoping to change or. you know? Yeah, I mean, I suppose that it's hard.

I def- There's definitely a world view, isn't there? There's definitely. And. that's as I've have the privilege of of. doing this now for nearly 10 years, which is [ __ ] nuts. Um like. you begin to try take your work more. seriously and you understand like, okay, I I know what I can offer and I and I. can see things about the world that I've. learned in this weird journey. >> Yeah. Like, you know, I can look at the. the Amazon piss thing and be like, this. is probably possible and I and I think. because of my experience I know that. Or.

you know, going like that film we've. just made about get rich quick and that. being in those rooms and. asking a billionaire to give him give me. a million, why not? Please. And uh just. like seeing I don't know, I suppose. that you said the grand ambition. Kind. of distracting myself thinking about. >> just like what do you. What is the goal? Is that what you're. saying? To try and change people's minds. or I don't know. I don't I don't know. I. just I don't know. I I think I first and. foremost I I do just consider myself. sort of a an artist and a creator of.

stuff and I I am I want to make really. interesting things that are in. conversation with the world. And what. and and you know, humor is a massive. part of it for me. I'm trying to be. entertaining. I want it to be funny. I. want it to be But I do also want it to. be illuminating and what I will say is. when you're working with like. Channel 4, which is like a public. service broadcaster Yeah. And maybe maybe you've even empathized. with this with being on the show. Like, you have a different Almost like you you. take a different set of.

uh questions that you ask about an idea. while you're coming up with it. You're. like, okay, well, this is going to be I. want to talk about this company Amazon, but also I need to justify that I can. talk about piss and stuff. So, I'm going. to evidence worker exploitation. Yes. I'm going to evidence this and I'm going. to but um working on projects here now. um. I'm really excited by looking at like. culture here and how that really plugs. into the moment that um.

uh cuz I think culture is actually a. really great way of talking about all of. that stuff. >> [clears throat]. >> Everything. If you focus on little. pieces of tech at like you know, I think. there's almost like. um. Culture I always think culture is a. manifestation of what the society is. experiencing. Yeah. It just has to be. Yeah. But it and becomes easier to like. why is the clothing popular at the time? Why. what is or isn't popular? Why is Did Did. you get what I'm saying? All of that is. just It's like the plant that grows from.

the soil and then is sometimes it's hard. to know what's happening in the soil but. if you look at the plant you can know. Yeah. It is interesting. This is the. first time in my life I've been an. immigrant somewhere. That's quite. interesting. I'm moving here for the. first time and being I you know I moved. to London and then I moved to I moved to. New York and uh that is an interesting. experience and I suppose that's what I'm. propelled by at this moment in time. Is. being the outsider. Yeah. Yeah. It's a. different world. Yeah and I think that. um. Yeah. I'm kind of I feel like I'm making no. sense at the moment. No no I think I'm.

realizing what you're saying. I think. two things that I picked up from here is. that. we're constantly fighting this battle. between gatekeeping and democracy. Mhm. Um advertising was one of those It was a. well-regulated and gatekept industry. until it was not. Now people are. creating their own adverts without. safeguards and research and. experimentation being done. Yeah that's. true. I didn't think about that. And the. other one is basically what we started. with when we are speaking about um. academia and how they write papers. It's. just basically a debate between um.

experimenting as a scientist which is. what we are enjoying now. You do. experiments and you get the results. quicker instead of someone taking 5. years to write a paper and do research. >> Yeah yeah yeah. So now we've. circumvented that whole process and. actually inverted it because you create. the experiment and then we do the. research. So, you basically going, "Here's what I. I've experimented. Go ahead and find out. if it's true or not." Like as your. lawyer would say, it's very legal. >> [laughter]. >> I think what you're doing is you're. setting off a tinderbox for us to start. having conversations and doing our own.

research so we can arrive to a. conclusion that we're happy with. Cuz. one thing if it's popular opinion, but. if you came up with that like we're. saying when you're watching a live uh. anything on YouTube and the comments are. different because it just depends on. where you're watching from. And right. now what you've just done is you've. given us all a POV and access to just. look at it and go, "What am I seeing?". Yeah. Yeah. Great. I mean, as you were. saying that there I think that I was. thinking about you watching it when it. came out. I mean, I wouldn't even think. about that. The idea that you were. watching this restaurant thing. I was.

living. >> it and I heard it from you, too. Yeah, right. So, you never you never Oh, Amazing. All right. So, if it made sense. to you, hopefully it made sense to Oh, no. Completely makes sense. Yeah. That's. why I say that's what the thing That's. what it does. Yeah. I love that you said. science is to experiment or sociology. whatever it is. It is. finding the right lens or mirror, putting it on society, and if you show. it in the right way I You know, I think. of one of the most impactful videos of. It went viral. It keeps going viral. every few years. It's from a long time.

ago in the US, though. There was a local sort of news channel. thing. They just did this simple. experiment. They put a bicycle in Central Park or. one of these parks. and it was locked to a pole. >> [snorts]. >> and then they just sent different people. to break the lock. And they just wanted to see what. happened. And they sent like a white guy. He's. like cutting like cutting it full on. like with a saw. Like very like like hokey I'm breaking a. lock. Not like subtle at all. Very like.

bang bang. >> [laughter]. >> You know what I. And people would just walk past him and. be "Huh, okay, whatever." And what And. then they see like a white woman, people would help. Help. They'd be like, "Yo, hold on. Hold on. You don't have. that wrong. Hold on. [laughter] Hold on. Let me Let me get that for you. Let me. Remember. Yeah, just remember. And then no, >> [laughter]. >> and then at some point someone She even. like push it. Someone was like, "Oh, is. is this your bike?" And she was like, "No.". And they're [laughter] like. And you giggle. They were like, "All.

right.". You always having a fun Sunday. >> Yeah. And then. And then they sent like black teenagers. to go and do it. Yo, Minute. while they. were just like standing there. People. like, "Hey, hey, hey, hey, what are you. doing? What are you doing?" And they. were like, "No, my bike. I locked the I. didn't I lost the key." They're like, "No. No, I'm calling the cops. No, here." Then they would even like pull. out the key and be like, "No, no, here's" They're like, "No. No, no, no. No, I'm calling the cops." You know? And. that small. It's not a paper. Yeah. Yes. It's not a newspaper article. It's not.

But the one thing you saw from the. people who were watching was they were. just like, "Damn.". Yeah. And I think the thing that was. interesting about it, and you said. something about this in a conversation. we had, is. it allowed people to observe it in a. non- non-judgmental way. You know, so that you they it wasn't. them saying like, "You white guys, you. have Look at your privilege." No, you. could just use your own language in your. own head to see the world and come to. your conclusion. And I think that's what. you're doing is.

genuinely, you made me think of. you made me laugh, definitely. But you. made me think of restaurants. differently. You made me think of. reality differently. You made me think. of influence differently. You may I was. like, "Oh, damn. You got to You know. what I mean?" But I I appreciate it. I'm. I'm excited to see what you come up. with. Thank you for joining us. This was. This was amazing. I love it. Thank you. very much. >> [ __ ] around and find out. That's what's. That's what he's doing. >> [laughter]. >> That is going to be, I'll tell you, on. the sign. [ __ ] around and find out. >> Yeah, that's exactly what it is. And. then as you leave, you [ __ ] around and. you go, "Did That's the most American.

that's good [laughter] enough for me. And then as you leave, you [ __ ] around. and say, "Did you?". Oh no, no. I did. [laughter]. I tell you. Two miles down, did He did. I did. Oh man, Uber thanks for joining us. This. is really great. Cheers. I loved it. Enjoy New York. Yeah, thank you. Thank you so much for watching the. episode. If you enjoyed it, >> [music]. >> pass it on to a friend. If you didn't. enjoy it, pass it on to your friends. still. Let them suffer for a change. And don't.

forget to engage your lesson in the. comments. Uh if you want to suggest a. guest, maybe there's questions you want, maybe there's ideas that you have, you. [music] can chat to us. We will read. through the comments and we'll get into. it. Either way, I appreciate you taking. the time. Thank you for hanging out with. [music] us on What Now? And remember we. do this for you, so we would like to. hear from you. Till next time, thank. you.