Meet Khaya Dlanga – One of My Favorite People | What Now? with Trevor Noah Podcast

By the way, can I just say. Yeah. If you listen to this podcast. and you had ideas about Africans, what I love about Khaya. is he really makes you feel like you're talking to an African. because it's like, what's his name? Khaya Dlanga. And then he's like, then my friend all said just China crashed into my car. and my other friend, one guy, then someone listening is like, oh wow. And what's the doll child again? Yeah, the oh, this is Adol Child. Yeah. You see what I mean?

But Khaya is full on, full on, like anyone listening. So this is like, yeah, this is oh my God, this is really Africa. This is Africa. This is so Africans showing them like pictures of me in the village. Khaya Dlanga , one of my favorite human beings on the planet. He's a writer. Social commentator, social media superstar.

But most importantly, and truly, this is the most important. He's my friend. We've been friends for over 20 years now, and Langa is easily one of the smartest, funniest and interesting human beings I know. And so I thought, why not have him on the show? I mean, if you're going to have a podcast. you want to share the most interesting people, right? And that's what today's episode is all about. One of my favorite people in the entire world, Khaya Langa. I think you're going to enjoy him as much as I do. But bad news, he's my friend. So you can't have him.

Oh, and that random South African voice you hear in the background. That's Ryan. South African producer. Don't mind him, but really, you should. This is what now, Trevor Noah. Has what happened to you, by the way? What was going on? The Uber driver got into this Uber, get started chatting.

The guy's German. This German driver so is picking is driving us and like, oh, So such chatting. Oh. Whoa. Where do you work? He works for. He is like an MD or something at Merrill Lynch. Like, wait, wait, what? I know your Uber driver. Uber driver was like and like was. or was was was he was currently at the time. At the time, yes. Like a massive executive position you know.

And I was like so sad as a dude what will explain what's going on here. And it says no. You know, when I come from Germany, I decide that, in order. for me to improve my English, I am going to become an Uber driver. Oh. You're lying. Yeah, I'm going to become an Uber driver. And then I'm going to please excuse my class. The German accent. I've actually never heard one. This is really dope. Yeah, it it is. It's like, it sounds like a new character in the next Black Panther. Ha!

They have a German character. So the as a strength of the Black Panther. Yeah, yeah. It is. So this guy and he's like, that's what he does now. And in order to improve his English and then it says. But what it also found was that he cannot understand. nuances about American that he got because he was an Uber driver. Yeah. You couldn't make it within the, you know, for his job. I was like, oh wow. That was for me the that actually makes sense. Very interesting. I mean, I think there's an easier way to do it.

But I mean hey man kudos to him. Maybe not many people earn money from the English lessons. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. Maybe that's like a pretty slick way to do it. Yeah. Efficiency. Yeah, it really is. I always wanted to be an Uber driver. That was my dream. But I've been a taxi driver. True. Yeah, but I wanted to be an Uber driver. Why? So I love driving. You do? So okay, here was the limitation. So the limitation of being a taxi driver.

in South Africa is. And for those listening, if you don't understand. that taxis in South Africa are different to taxis in most parts of the world, in that's here. When we say taxi, we mean like a mini bus that travels on a predetermined route. So for me it felt a little restrictive. I couldn't turn where I wanted to turn. I couldn't like, you know what I mean? I want to be free. Let me do my thing, man. I'm like a taxi. So I've always wanted to drive. I was free, but it wasn't taking me on it. That's who I wanted to be.

I wanted to be the guy backing up on the highway. No, I don't know why. I always wanted to be like, you know what? It also is. Okay, I love driving. And I also like, like, efficient driving. I know how to explain it, but I. I love the idea of getting people to the place. they're supposed to be in the best way possible, with the least stress possible. Oh, okay. You know, so far. Do you like driving? I love driving. One of my favorite things to do is to drive. It's it's quite far. So I really do enjoy driving from Joburg to the Eastern Cape by myself.

You know, I thought your answer was going to be no because of how many accidents you've had. But I haven't had many accidents. How many accidents have you had? Maybe two. Maybe two? Yeah. In fact, the first accident I had was a taxi driver. Hit me. Okay. But there was. And the second one was was another taxi driver in Cape Town. But how you feel for getting you crashing into the back of a police car for me? Oh, yeah. Okay, that I don't count that.

this guy. only counts accidents that happen to him. You're right. Let me tell you what. Let me tell you what I did. What kind of did. Right. I had just got a call. Your first call was a Mercedes-Benz C-Class. This guy had never driven in his life. Oh, out. How old is he? How old are you, then? I'm like 31, 32. That's the first time you drove? Yes. Okay. This is the first time this guy drives. So you. So you even had the three accidents in half the amount of time? Yeah. That's what you're saying, basically. Okay. I made up for it. So?

So he gets a Mercedes-Benz C-Class first car, right? Him and Alissa are driving. They're going to some party somewhere. Alissa has also got a brand new car. Mercedes-Benz E-Class. Yeah. Convertible. Convertible. Two of them driving together. Having a good time. Music going. Ladies loving the drive here. Hey. Good time, good time. What happens next thing? We just get a message in the group chat. Guys, we had an accident. So, like, who's we? Me and Kaia. And we're like, oh, but you guys are in different cause he's like, S is like. Exactly.

Oh, so it turns out okay. Yeah. It drove straight into the back of. a van. And what police, I always forget to. mention is the fact that he brakes suddenly because he was, there was someone in the passenger seat. Was directing, and he forgot to tell. No turn. Yeah. So he brake like, oh, so he slammed the brakes on the road. But you wouldn't be following this. But also, like, okay, the car had, destroyed Nick. What what? Oh. Your car.

Yeah. Oh, so you trusted the car to do the thing. Okay. And it always did. But the. Can I tell you, you're mistaken? I thought the problem was, is that three days before it had said. to Sonic malfunctioning. Take that, it's going to take it. And I was like. And I was like, I'll take it. I'll take it tomorrow, right? Good thing tomorrow. And then I had the accident. So. Yeah. And then did you take it. Do I. you know what I would have done if I was you, I would have taken it to the dealership and being like, guys, what happened here?

Stop. I have the decision to go on. And it didn't stop. Yeah. That's what I would have done. Yeah. So those are my accident. I'm assuming the insurance paid out because now you admitting to things. Yeah. No, no, the insurance paid. Okay. Did they? No. But I mean, that's that's still you insured for. Yeah. I mean, I tried to break, but he was too late to break. Yeah. And it's an accident. That's what you get insured for. Yes. And accident, you know, but not negligence. Yeah. Not negligence. Well, that's. what you get insured for in countries with insurance pays in America actually. How is their car insurance. They do we know in America.

Yeah I have. no because I mean I know. like health insurance as we know Luigi has shown us it's not great. Yeah. And then fire insurance. We saw what happened in California. Yeah. Where they like, started pulling it from people, which, by the way, I still think is one of the greatest scams in life, right, is that insurance companies. can pull out of a market because they're like, we're not making money. And no one seems to ask the question, is the purpose of your business to make money or to insure people?

Well, do you get what I'm saying? Yes, I look, I know, I know, people be like, yeah, but it's a business. I'm like, no, no, no. But wait. But I'm saying when we start with priority, the first thing. it's interesting to me that insurance. companies can pull out of markets. because they're no longer going to make money. Yeah. Coke doesn't change the recipe if it's more expensive to make coconut. that's what I mean. It continue to make coke. The job is to make money from coke. Yeah. But the job is to make money from insurance people.

They just go no it's no. close now. We won't make as much money. Then I'm like, yeah, but you're supposed to insure people. isn't the purpose of your business insurance. And also like, isn't it like it's a bet, right. Because I say because the whole thing about like, I don't remember if I saw this already somewhere. where someone said the purpose of insurance. The company says, right. Yes. I bet you your house won't catch fire and decide. I bet you my house will, right? And so what you do is that, like now you you're paying, right?

Because as long as you don't catch. And if I your bet you like I'm. I told you that's crazy. It's a bet it's not. And all of a sudden now my house catches fire. The bar. The bets has come, right? Yeah, the bet has come right now. You have to pay me because I win. Now I have totally different. Exactly. Totally different idea. Now that I have that idea. Yeah. The next time I claim from insurance. Yeah I'm going to go into the offices Cheering haha yes yes. Hey I told you I told you yeah yeah yeah.

Whose house is this. Whose. Well I don't have one anymore but you know what I mean I told you. Yeah. So I thought that's such a great concept describing what insurance is. I feel like all it is, is a great concept. I feel like all, Not all don't want to be broad. I feel like many businesses in America. And then it's going to go around the world or now less. focused on being a good business and more focused on making the money.

Oh, 100%. And I know some people would say, yeah, but that's what business is. And I don't agree. I don't think that's what business should be. I think it can be the byproduct of doing something. Well, you know what I mean? Yeah. Because. but even to what you're saying with like Uber drivers and stuff, we love to blame. the people who are delivering the food or driving us around, etc. but if we're honest about it, this is a byproduct of a company that's growing at an insanely rapid rate. And so then what they all these companies do is they slowly, over.

time, reduce the qualifications that people need to become a driver. They so in the beginning, I remember when like Uber started. and all these things started, it was like, oh, you have to have this and your car has to be inspected in a certain way. And now you get into a car. and you're just like, yo, man, how did you get to me exactly? No, but I mean, you know, I remember the first time, I don't know if any anyone here remembers the first time they used an Uber app. Yeah. I'm, I the first time I remember the very first time.

they were going to be launching Uber in South Africa. And they invited me to the launch. Just not okay. Great. And then because they knew you weren't a driver or do you drive? And I had a you were driving by the spot. And so my car then happened like that week or two, you know, happened to go to a service or two to a service. and was like, oh, let me try this Uber thing. So I opened and I was like, oh my goodness, it's so me. The guy's face, the registration, the car, how is this was revolutionary to me.

I was like, this is incredible. And anyway, he arrived. He gets out of the car, does all the Uber blacks on the side. open the door and they use to open the door for you. They had water and and that water is in the men's in the back seat. And then they close the door for you. And I was like, this is incredible. I was so impressed by it, by them and to such an extent. that I don't know if you, you know, I'm my friend on Zynga. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So she sees me being dropped off at Caesars. A capella.

Yeah, yeah, I'm being dropped off. Uber driver comes out, open the door. So when she sees me, she says Kaia. And she genuinely thought that genuinely she said chaos by. the like. So as jokingly I said yeah I mean I'm a spy. And she believed this for the longest time. No ways. All boys sold prestige. So to steal that would have taken away all the nice things. But the price remains. I mean, but that's the that's the business model. That's what all these companies down with capitalism.

No, but that's what. all these companies have done in the especially from Silicon Valley. Right. Their business model is grow as quickly as possible, get as much money as you can, scale as fast as you can, and then most importantly, decimate the competition. So you come in, you price the products way lower than the rest of the market. So that's what they did in most markets was they killed the taxi prices. So in New York, in London, in Germany and other places, they did that. Then in some cities fought back, you know, and then once they own the market,

then they start hiking the prices and to make things. worse, they start throttling the drivers. So now if you drive an Uber, there were many people who bought Ubers. because they were promised, like, oh, if I buy the car, I'm going to earn this much, much higher. They should have like guarantees on billboards, even if they earn a minimum, guaranteed a minimum of. And I think at the time it was like 75, $80,000 a year. And then once they had enough capacity and they had a stranglehold of the market, then they started ditching drivers. You don't earn as much from a ride, so pricing changes, the riders pay more.

And now we all dependent on it. And this is why we should never allow monopolies to take place. You don't like that. It's interesting because businesses always have this, grand philosophy about why it exists. There's no profit when you're looking at their vision statement as a company. No, nothing. But the ultimate reason they exist is to make a profit. Is to make a profit, not really to provide the best service that they claim they want to provide.

Yeah, I think to be fair, many of the people who started. these companies in Silicon Valley, I think, believed in the beginning. that they were setting out on a noble mission. I genuinely believe that. But bro, it's very hard to beat Wall Street. Oh yeah, that's very true. As soon as your company's a publicly listed company, all you're doing is trying to maximize shareholder value. And that's it's like your mission is no longer to your customers.

Your mission is to the shareholders. Right. And so I think fundamentally it's like, man, I mean, it's it's pretty sad because, you know, there's actually there's a flip, the switch of my phone. Yeah. You must take your phone. You take the cheerful. There is a great quote, the message of your phone. I'm glad we brought you here. This is actually an intervention. This isn't a message. My phone is on. I can I can give you what you want. This is nothing to do with the. You thought this is a podcast? We were just hosting an intervention to stop Kyle from being on his phone. Yo, this guy. I checked his phone the other day.

15 hours of screen time of day. Oh, my gosh, guys, do you know how many hours are in a day? There's 24, in case you're wondering. Okay, I've found it. What's the quote? The quote is by Carl Sagan. Let me just go quickly. Carl Sagan. let me find. So I don't know if Carl Sagan was just like a physicist. and he says, I have a full biting of an America into my children's or grand children's.

time, when the United States is a service and information economy, when nearly all manufacturing industries have slipped away to other industries, when awesome technological powers are in the hands of very few. and no one representing the public interest can even grasp the issues. When the people have lost the ability to set their own agendas or. or knowledgeably question those in authority.

Well, clutching our crystals and nervously consulting our horoscopes, our critical faculties in decline, unable to distinguish. between what feels good and what's true, we slide almost without noticing, back into superstitious darkness. The dumbing down of America. So this is about America. I think it's about the whole world, really. The dumbing down of America is most evident in the slow decay. of substantive content and in the enormously influential media.

The 32nd soundbite. Thank goodness your podcast is way longer than that. Now down to 10s or less. Lowest common denominator programing, credulous representations, presentations. or pseudoscience and superstitions, but especially. of a kind of celebration of ignorance. So. And he wrote this in 1995. So before we talk about the quote, can I just say normally when people say.

there's a quote, I love what they mean, it's like, be or not to be. Yeah. It's normally like every dog has his date. That's what I thought the quote was going to be. This man just read us a chapter. and said, you know, there's a there's a quote that I love, guys, it's called Genesis from the Bible. It really was, so, okay, this is what this is what, like maybe I, I never really understood this about you because you are a paradox. for a person who loves social media as much as you do,

you also love the antithesis of social media as much as you do. You know what I mean? Because you've written books. And you read books, but you also have 15 hours of screen time. And that's just terrible because I don't spend as much time reading as I used to. Oh, so it's affected you as well? Exactly. Because I don't read as much as I used to. And I don't think that like, reading like little snippets is not. I don't because it doesn't delve into the no, it doesn't matter.

It's like and it's it's like it's the same thing. as watching something on TikTok where you get like, you know, pseudo knowledge. Yeah. You know what? You kind of suddenly feel like, oh, I'm well informed because, well, I found out that for the first time that actually the planets don't. Yeah, yeah, we've all been one, you know, it's an over. But I don't know why that happens. But then, you know, I was worried when they said TikTok was going to be banned, but. I was happy because I thought you would, like, live a new life.

And actually, this. Yeah, I am. I, don't even finish that sentence. You're going to lie, I am trying. Oh, boy. He was attempting to be actively to try and read more than I did. Okay, yeah. That one. I thought you were going to say something like, I'm going to use social media. No, no, no, I definitely want to read it. Did you guys know by the is on your phone? But yeah, this guy, this guy is. you know, when you talk about like, deeply entrenched in social media, kids. young are the man I'm sitting opposite now was the first African.

to have. correct me if I'm wrong a million views on YouTube. Yeah. Ever. Guys. Before yo, before we knew what YouTube was as a thing. This is like maybe 2006, 2007. Yeah, this guy was on YouTube and he was loving it and he was killing it. Yeah, man, that was annoying. Why did you stop, by the way? It, it's a Twitter. Put your phone down.

Did it. also explain what happened as well was that. I got asked to start writing columns and so in newspapers. Yeah. Newspapers. You really are you just like old school, new school, old school. You're like, guys, I'm leaving YouTube. Why? There's this new thing called a newspaper column. And I have to step into it. Guys. Hi. How are you going, guys? It's the future. Trust me. Now, these newspaper columns, I think everyone in the. world is going to be reading this, but you've got a million people on on YouTube.

Yes, there's 22,000 on the newspaper who might want to hear what I have to say. That's what a grand decision. So that's an effort. And I was like, oh, I have this. because I have to have an opinion about something this week. Yeah. You know, and then I and I was like, I just don't have the time, you know, maybe YouTube wasn't paying you at the time. Oh no, that wasn't actually the. Oh yeah. There was no money on you people was paying you. And it took a long time for them to pay anyone outside of America.

Oh, yeah. That's true. Yeah. And then I think I came very I was like, okay, what's the point? I even got an email from Steve Chen, who was one of the co-founders of Egypt. Crazy. So because there was this, because YouTube used to do this thing. where if they thought a video was like, incredible, yeah, they would put it like on the front page. Oh yeah. They used to do like a featured video. Yeah, yeah. When they were on the front page of YouTube, it was like a thing. you, you made it. And I was on the front page.

and I was like, wow, I wake up, I'm on the subscribe, boom boom boom boom. Subtitles. I was like, what's going on? What's going on? And I happened to be. And while the first African, you know, to be featured, it's all good. And and all these big YouTubers obviously this. See you've been featured. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They all start mailing you and they want to collaborate. And it was like this crazy freaking thing. And then Steve Chen sent me an email saying that, you know, it's something along the lines of, it's so great to see. people from other parts of the world contributing to the conversations.

and being creative in very different ways, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah, Americans. And we love having you here. And I've watched like a lot of your videos and I was I got them. So I send them an email and I was like responded wow. I was like, this is the first email I ever got from a billionaire. And that's all I had to say to him. And just like he's a billionaire because I think. I think that just sold to Google, I'm not sure, but I think. or they were about to, but one of the two, so I.

yeah, it was crazy that I just got an email from freaking Steve Chat. Oh I like yeah, yeah, but your life is littered with that. You know, I was thinking the other day I was like, you are. If someone if someone was to ask me, they'd go like, you know, who is Kaia? Or what is it about Kaia that fascinates you guys? People would always speak to Kaia. as if they've always known you. They'll speak to you like you always find yourself in a conversation. with a stranger.

And I've always wondered, like, is that. is that how your life has always been, or was that something you noticed? Or is this something you worked on? Is it something I don't think is anything that I, I noticed until people said so, I didn't know it was a thing? Yeah. For example, my brother, you know, my late brother, he used to say when I was younger and used to visit me in Cape Town. I lived in Cape Town. He'd say, damn it, I hate walking with you because, if you're going to the mall, let's say we're going to Cavendish Square. when I was in Cape Town and you're like, oh, God damn it, we're going to have to.

You're going to have stopped by people. You got to start chatting to everybody there and all of that. And I didn't know this. And do you know when I noticed that, maybe I do stop and talk to a lot of people along the way. was when I started hanging out a lot with who call Lisa. Lisa, because now, for the first time, I was the one who had to wait. That's so funny. Now I was like, I was like, oh, flip, this is what people mean when they say that. I stop and talk. You know, you do.

You stop and you speak to everybody and everybody speaks to. you and I what do you think you got from your grandfather? Because, like, tell me a little bit about your grandfather. because I know, I know like some of the stories. we've shared here and there, but like, who was your grandfather? Well, my grandfather, his name. If if you're a South African. Right. And you're trying to give someone a job. Yes. And just like you have to read someone's name and it's a whites only job. Yes. My my grandfather would get the job, okay? Because his name was Alfred Kaiser.

Boyce. Wow. Alfred Kaiser, like the German. Like the German. Alfred Kaiser boy. Yes, b oh, I see, so that's voice. Yeah. From my m from my mom I know right? Damn. Yeah. It sounds very fancy, right? No, it really does. See Alfred Kaiser Boyce Alfred Kaiser boys and sending Alfred Kaiser boys. like a German Uber driver. Actually. So. Damn y'all. Wait, wait, where did you get. Where does he get that name?

So he got that name. from while they gave him Alfred Kaiser because he went to school. So like back in. Oh, okay. Because in the 20s. So the in school they gave him the white teachers. Yeah. Yeah. The same way Mandela like Nelson. Nelson. Yes. Wait. So did your grandfather also have because Nelson we know had released. Arthur was his name. Then they were like, no, no, you're Nelson buddy I don't. Did your grandfather have do. No, no. He was always I always knew I as Alfred Kaiser boys. They didn't have any other name. But surely he truly was given another name when he was born.

This is a good question. I have no idea because all his sisters have in fact, one of his sisters. Her name is hilarious, wonderful, wonderful novel. Well, basically means the fourth one. for her name would be for like, imagine your parents calling you just the number first kid. Okay, Stephanie said.

That's that's wonderful. Okay. But for like, for example, like, I didn't know her name until that funeral. Yeah. Because, you know, in the village, like to say, like you, you didn't know all the people's names. You just didn't know what their names were. All you knew was like, okay, the grandchild from there, and that's the name. So when the parents sent you, they were like, like they'd never say, like, you call me. Like they go to Patricia. No, they would know. But yeah, they say, Go to Trevor House and talk to Trevor's mom and say,

this is what I want. I struggled to explain this to my, let's say, my American friends. or any of my Western friends because I'll meet their parents, right? And oftentimes they say it's white people, and then they'll go, hey, Trevor, how are you doing? And I'll be like, oh, nice to meet you, Mr. Johnson or whatever. And I'll be like, oh, come on, my name is Brad. And I'm like, yes, Mr. Johnson. Yeah. Then they get angry. Yeah. Like, hey, hey, I'm not. My father was Mr. Johnson, I'm Brad. Then I'm like, no, your son is Peter you Mr.

Johnson? Yes. Or I will then call you Peter's father. Yeah. And it's hard to explain it because where we come from, you never referred to an older person by their name. You didn't even know their name. You didn't know. So everything was in relation to. So you would go, oh, hello. Kaya's aunt. Hello. Kaya's grandmother? Yes. Oh, hey. Kaya's father. Yeah. How are you today? You know, that's so my grandfather. He was not the chief in the village, but he was, He controlled all the cattle in the village.

Not just any village. Just. Just to create some of the imagery here for you. If when Kyle says village. I've learned now, like some people, you know, I have friends now from England because I've moved up in the world. and they've they grew up, they grew up in villages as well. But it's not village like we. All right. So when if you're trying to picture village here, if you've watched Black. Panther. before, they go through the magical dome that covers Wakanda.

You know how like Wakanda looks. But before the spaceship flies through that dome, this is where Khaya grew up. So he's on the outside of the dome. He's on the outside of the dome before the technology. Yeah, he's with, like, the cows and. Yeah. And like the mud huts. Yeah. And this is. This is how you grew up. I just want people to understand this. So when you see the villages. No plumbing. No. Yeah. No plumbing, no nothing. Yeah. And all of the mud huts. Yes. Yeah. Okay. This is so when you say village, this is the village. You mean cool. Yeah. So he was a custodian of all that cattle.

I'd say. around maybe 4 or 5 villages around us. Damn. And so if anyone like, let's say Trevor one if it cows gives birth year. to come and report and say that my cow so-and-so is giving birth. And then my my grandfather registered the cow. So he was the DMV of cows. Yes, that's what he was. That's what he was. Yeah. Yeah. So it registered the cow? Yeah. If a cow died, he had to come and tell him. Yeah, that's a write off. Yeah, well, because when you cause a wreck, you have to report it to the government as well. Yeah, yeah.

So he was this guy in the village and, and so he, he was like this, you know, authority because he, I mean, cows are wealth. and that is controlling the wealth of the village. If that is true, that's really powerful. Yeah. So he was very powerful. And so yeah, a lot of people would come to him for, you know, council for advice and, you know, all sorts of things. My home was very busy, so it was never quiet because of this. And this, you see, this is starting to explain.

It's not that that that you're saying. Yeah. Because and then, I mean, because a dog's in the house with a gate. and people would scare off the dogs, so they'd call my name calling to, then I'd have to freaking get out the house, go open, you know, go open the gate, fetch whoever you know is. Yes. So when I was walking anywhere. with my grandparents, people would be talking to them. And obviously because they wanted to be seen to be nice to the children. Do they would speak to you, speak to me as well.

And I suspect this, but what kind of I gained that kind of. but also my village is like, everybody talks to everybody. and maybe I still have that kind of yeah you do, you do where it's like, okay, Oh there's so and so I will say hi because I know them. not not you don't talk to them for a reason. You just talk to people for. Yeah, you just talk because they're there. Because they're there. And I think that's where I get that from. And maybe that's why in like most of my books, I kind of.

I can't help but write about the village, which I love. Yeah, it's a lot more profound for me then and then on the surface, you know, when you go, we greet people just because they're there. You know, I, I often think to myself, one of the things I miss most when I'm not in South Africa. is the fact that we all acknowledge each other, I mean, even in the smallest ways. You know, our greetings are plural. You know, you walk into a room, you greet everybody sans banana.

I see all of you. Yes, yes. Do you know what I mean? Yes. It's more when, you know, it's like for every one goodbye. And that's a good morning. We see all of you, you know. Yeah. And. And you don't realize how beautiful that is as a concept until you don't have it. Really? And you travel the world, and in many places, people get into an elevator, you know, a lift, and they don't greet anybody, and people get into a bus.

Nobody greets anybody. People get into the train. In New York, when I first got there, I greeted people. When I first get on the train, I, I've never seen, you know, like, you know, if you want to be a creep, step into the subway. and then when the doors close, be like, hello? Hello. I'm sorry that was such a creep. But I didn't know that you, not you, just. You don't. It's almost frowned upon, you know? And. it's it's such a wonderful feeling to be seen. Yeah, it's very different. It's almost, you know, when you actually said.

And, you know, suddenly when I went to. Yeah, I actually, I don't know if I'm thinking about this. or I've seen it, I've read it somewhere, but it's almost like it says Sonny Bono. Because if I'm the one greeting you. Yeah, right. Sonny Bono sounds like I am, because it is me who thinks I want to. So I'm saying we see. Yes. Right. So it almost feels like I'm saying me and my ancestors. Yeah. And everybody who comes with me sees you. Yeah. So we greeting you, right?

So that's why I think what you just said is very profound, that. our greetings are plural. Right. So it's everybody who comes before me. also observes who you are as a human being. Whereas. like in the, in the, in the Western culture, it's starting to creep in. Well, you know, people are starting not to greet and all of the differently. But what usually happens. So like I'm busy and I run into you and I'm asking for directions I walk up to. So I don't know who you are. You're a stranger and I come to you and I say, then,

you know, we'll be KFC and then we're like. And then you. All the people love doing this to you. And they're like, schoolboy born upwards. Yeah. And they greet you all and you're like, oh man. Yeah, they are really saying that. Oh, you didn't greet me basically by saying that the force in the greeting. And then now you come down and you have to greet them. How are you? I'm fine. Fine. Thank you. All right. Oh, what did you want? Oh, okay. Directions to KFC. And then they start offering you, you know, the direct.

They tell you you didn't know what it is. So and. I think there's something really actually very, very profound about that. I think we take it for granted because we live here and you experience it, but every single person, including white people, they always say when they go overseas. or they come back to South Africa, they talk about how it is. They're like, you know what I miss about South Africa? Yes. They said people don't greet everyone like they don't greet anywhere else. And here we do.

I think one of the more beautiful aspects of, of South African culture. holistically is that we're a culture of seeing people. So a simple example I noticed was. three different versions of the same thing when I was in India, where I live in New York, and then I'll come to South Africa. It's the way people respond to homeless people. in India. People either completely ignore a homeless person or they like. they do this hand thing where they like dismiss them like hardcore.

You know, for me it's hardcore. Obviously it's an Indian thing, so I'm not judging it, but it's just like I was like, wow, damn, that's that's hardcore. You know, in New York, people won't even look at somebody, so they'll be like a homeless person on the streets and asking for money. And people just walk past. They they don't they don't make eye contact. You avoided at all costs. And it's crazy to say this, but I, I found myself. being really proud of South Africa. because when I would come back. after being away for long stints, I realized how like.

people would. look at homeless people and greet them, not give them money always. I'm not saying it's like everyone is like super altruistic or anything. And then the funny thing is, they would even have a conversation with the homeless person, you know? So let's say a homeless person would come to your window. and then they'd be like, hello, posture, anything, anything. Then you'd be like, nothing, nothing. I remember once, yeah, this is one of the funniest conversations I've ever had. It changed how I drive, by the way, because now I always have. Like, I always have some change in the car or something. Just because. Because of this guy. I'll never forget this.

I'm driving my car. and I think I was driving a Range Rover at the time, and I get to the traffic lights and the guy comes to the window, then he's like, hello, hello, anything, please, hello, anything. And I was like, nothing, Baba. Sorry. Nothing, nothing. Then he's like nothing. I was like, no. Then he's like, you finished it on the car? Hahaha. Hey yo bruh. Ha ha. Oh. By the way, he said it. the way he said it, he's like, yeah, no, he doesn't finish on the car now.

Yeah, I, I'm sure it's tough. No, I'm surprised you just any he didn't like judge. You didn't fight with me. He didn't anything. Just had like the rest of a conversation with me when I drove away. Maybe it's because of, like, you know, I know this is going to sound strange, but in a weird way. Because he saw me. Yeah, he reminded me that I have to see him. Oh, wow. That's very true. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. Like he actually reminded me that, like, yo, man, just because the guy is homeless,

just because the guy's begging for money doesn't means not a human being does. You be like, sorry. Like I don't have, you know, and they'll say, oh, so next time they do say that. Yeah. So next time they're like in like, yeah, next time. But like, yeah, yeah. They have an acknowledgment of the fact that you could also. be going through something that means you don't necessarily have disposable. income at this point in time. Yeah, that's very true actually. Very it's because there's, there's actually I've never experienced that in another country. I've never, ever experienced in a country where someone asked me.

for money and I don't have and, you know, now it's worse because we're cashless. Yeah. Yeah. But I've never experienced that. Where I go, I don't have anything on me. Only in South Africa will a person say, I know it's fine. You know what? Maybe next time you'll. Yeah. Good luck to you, my man. Yeah, except for that. Except for me, I don't know, I think I mentioned this. It takes a. what is this tweet. Right. The someone who tweeted about the the at that intersection. Yeah. Intersection. And the traffic lights don't work at all.

Robots traffic lights. They're not working. And the guy's directing traffic. And so it goes to the guy, you know, at the front of the, you know, the guy in front. Yeah. And kind of asking for money. And the guy says, so I don't have money. What? The guy's this homeless guy? What is this stuff? Put his fingers. inside. You know what is? Because down this guy. and this guy tweeted about this this experience. And basically it's like, does it know what to do?

Because this guy just fucking shoved his fingers down, just. goes off. Been giving. Yeah. Giving him money. It's okay. That was like yeah, that was I mean it I mean that that never happens. But it's happens once in a while. But, it's my, it's it's my favorite, my favorite story. It's terrible. The favorite thing I've had this year. What would you do?

You know, it's one of those deals where I'd, I, I think I'd drive off, but I know I'm saying, what would you do? As it happens, as it happens, is it would you close your mouth? I would suck, so I'd make him uncomfortable. Oh, my gosh, you think so? You think so? That's. I really think it would do. No no, no, that's. How do you think this is? You behind the microphone time. Never. This is you behind the microphone. At that time, I think the first thing I would think about is like, let. me not swallow.

I like I need to find the, the closest garage I need to go to. I'd probably say that's what I've been thinking about. And it sounds terrible and elitist, but I would be thinking, like, I need to go and get mouthwash. Should I go to my doctor? I don't know, but I think, what would a random stranger do that? Right? That's what I was going to say. I was going to say. Yeah, the fact that the person is homeless might be a slight heightening of it. Yeah, but I think it's the stranger. Yeah, but also, like, it doesn't matter. So random.

What what I'm saying. What? That's what I'm saying. Why would he do that? I think it's, I think it's more just about a street. because I was on a trip, even if I was in an airplane. and someone walked past my row and then said to me, excuse me, can I have your drink? And I was like, no. And while I was still talking, they put their fingers in my mouth. I'd have the exact same reason. I wouldn't, I wouldn't, they wouldn't put their hand on my mouth. and be like, oh, at least they weren't homeless. No, I yeah, yeah yeah yeah, yeah I wouldn't know that. That's true. It's yeah, it's more the stranger. Yeah. And the fingers that come with that stranger going into your mouth. But what if, what if they were from economy. Yeah.

I mean that's sort of like homeless man. Can I tell you what's what's funny about this is just like how powerful. the human mind is. Is that like and not not to get too graphic, but it's funny how people will go out, put their tongue in a stranger's mouth that they've never met, like they'll go to a club or restaurant, a bar. They'll put their tongue in a stranger's mouth that they've never met. Right. They will go home with that person and then put their mouth in other places. on that person. Okay? But then if somebody comes and put their fingers in your mouth.

because you didn't choose it, this is how powerful consent is as a concept. Wow. That is very true. Yeah. Because if you if you you chose it now, it's not crazy. Yeah. Because I don't know, surely you've. had the strangest fingers in your mouth, but technically you have. No. But then not the stranger at the time. How long have you known them? Maybe a couple of hours. Ha ha ha. You see? You see? So it's like. Yeah, we had a conversation. It's all just in the mind. It was consent. Like. Yeah, no, it's. What about consent?

So now they're like. Because now I'm like, what is in their finger? Like what they. Right. Doesn't mean the mouth is a really you be shocked at what your mouth can handle. Can you know, you can clip that. By the way, you should put it somewhere. Yeah, I mean for me, but it's true. But the worst part of that story would be. if I liked it. Okay, I think that's the best part of the story or something. Why is that the worst part? That would be the best. You'd have to tell people that you thought, know, you don't have to tell anybody that you like that you liked it.

But now you know which intersection you're driving to every single week. Hoping. you just be there all the time. Your your window just down went to mouth wide open. I have no money. We're going to continue this conversation. right after this short break.

Of everyone. I had ever known in my life, you were the only person. And I mean, the only person I knew. who was closely following American politics. a before it became like, let's say, popular, for lack of a better word. Yeah. And before I went and did The Daily Show and I was watching The Daily Show. Yeah. You were watching The Daily Show. before I knew what The Daily Show even was as a concept. Like when I said, I remember when I said, I'm. going to do an episode of the Daily Show.

Yeah, you lost that. You lost your mind. You're like, wow, wow, this is so great. And I was like, all right. I guess. because I had by that time I had appeared on Jay Leno and appeared on Letterman. I had known of those more. Yeah, but you were just like The Daily Show. Like, when did your passion for American history and politics begin? Like, why? Because this wasn't a thing that's popular in South Africa. Yeah, not I mean, it's not like it's not like it was a trend. when I think it's because I was such a, a loner, you know, as a child.

Still doesn't explain in the air. Oh, God. It's a lot of kids. I was alone, you know what I did? I played Mario Brothers. You know what I'm saying? Like, I didn't sit at home and go like, I wonder what Richard Nixon thought. before Watergate happened. No big Mario Brothers. No, I think it's because it was reading. So. Yes. But how do you get to those books? I also read a lot the Wind in the Willows. Yeah, a Little Prince, a doctor, Seuss. What kind of child? Growing up in a village. I remember you when people had pets like cats and dogs.

Yeah. You on a first name basis with sheeps and cows. That's not. And that's true. So you were like, rolling with sheep. And cows. Yes. And then you go and I'm also. going to really get into Reagan and Nixon and and Bill Clinton. Then I had to go to the township, you know, so. like at 13 and I'm living with my mother. and then my mom kind of starts saying. important things like really happening in this country, like Mandela. And so she starts the little foursome, start reading the newspaper.

in front of my school, like, am I the only black kid in my class, for example? And then. in the school of about 800 to 900 kids, there must have been five, six black kids, you know, in the school when they did, you know all of them in the black kids? Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, at school, yes, I yeah, but I'm saying do you, did you know them. Yeah. Yeah. With a male female. There were. I think there were, both. You had to divide both genders.

But you did, you did, you did. Did anyone try and set you up with them? And. No, I was too young. So. So nobody kind of tried to do anything at the time. So we. Yeah. And then the, the school library, because I was always in the library that was and before the library opened, I would go and read the newspaper, the Daily Dispatch, and I just go and read. and read and read until 7:00, until the school start at 730. And then I read the newspaper until 730. But I started to cut you off like.

you could barely speak English. Yes, because I'd learn to speak English three years before. But you were reading everything in English? Yes, I was reading everything in English. This is really interesting. I was reading this, and then the, in high school, they had, like, time. magazine and Newsweek, and then I'd read. But. Okay, so you go to a new school. Yeah, I go to. Okay. Got it. Okay. I see what happened here. So this moves from the village?

Yeah. Now you and your school learned English two years ago. Yes. You're in an English school. I mean, they've got time magazine, they've got time magazine, they've got Newsweek. Okay, I know Garfield and I used to read Garfield. Oh, you did, because they had Garfield's in the newspaper. I like that you were like a. this guy was a full time adult, part time kids, essentially. That's what they did. And then, and then they'd have the in a Newsweek. and then to take those like, who's this Bill Clinton guy?

Okay. Oh interesting. And then I read about him and Hillary Clinton and George Bush and, and all of those guys. I'm like, oh, Ross Perot. And I'm like, wow, this is fascinating. And so then that gets me like a lot very interested in American history. And, and then I think what also got me into this, because the O.J. Simpson Simpson trial happened, and then I was fast. I could not wait for Newsweek or Time magazine every week, and I'd be there.

reading about the trial, because that detailed information. about about this trial, you are 13 years old while this is happening. Yeah. And so and I'm reading this case and I'll never forget, like, I got the. highest mark for, an oral in the history of the school. Thanks to this for me reading, just randomly reading. and I'll tell you how this happened. So I had the OJ Simpson trial was going to happen, and then he was acquitted. Yeah. And our teacher gave the entire class assignment and this and she says,

okay, class, this is your subject, a controversial subject. Whatever you choose. Okay? Everybody does a things abortion. It is, you know, you know, democracy, all of those things. Right? And then I go and I speak on like as the following day, I'm the first one to speak, you know, in front of the class. and I start off and I say, and I start off by reciting. what the jury said, you know, other begin as I go back with the jury, find the defendant, Oriental.

James Simpson, not guilty of the above entitled accident. panel cold weather whatever of the murder of Nicole Brown Simpson, a human being. Right. And then I say, it's very fascinating to me that white Americans. I say this specifically. And now remember, my entire class is white. Yes, it's about two other black kids in the class. And I say, it's fascinating to me that white people believe or, conveniently. believe that you are innocent until proven guilty.

Yes. Right. But they're so angry that O.J. Simpson has been found not guilty of this. But at the same time, why do is so important for him to be guilty. if they believe that you're innocent, innocent, guilty, guilty. And I must have spoken for a minute and a half making that statement. when my classmates started interjecting, asking me questions that's like, no, but Kyle can't say that. He used to hit. He used to hit her and cops would come, as I guess I understand that's true.

What he was doing is terrible. Should not be, nor should be hitting anybody. It's evil that it I and so. But it doesn't mean that he did kill her right. So according to the evidence that was presented. and what the jury said, they said he is not guilty. So and the teacher also asking me questions, the period ended. I didn't finish my oral. So I thought, oh my goodness, I'm going to get zero. because because then the next period comes, I mean, back at the. the next day, someone else and someone else.

And I didn't finish my sentence right. And then I got like 100%. And she said, because your subject was so controversial. that everyone got involved and everyone got involved, it never happened to anybody else. And it was because I had so much specific, detailed information that I could give everybody answers. Because I was reading this about this trial every week. Okay. But now, do you think O.J. did it or do you still think he was innocent? I don't know, I really don't know if he did it, but then.

But what do you think? What do I think? I'm not saying, you know, what do I? Because nobody knows I, I because I understand 13 year old kid. I like this man is innocent. No, no, I, I suspect it was a 13 year old. I suspect that parading through the school and was like, this man is innocent, you know, like he's the Nelson Mandela of football in America. No, but I, I struggle to think that he was he he did it.

Okay. So you like now, based on the trial I was following at the time, I struggle, but now become. Assuming you've watched O.J. Made in America. Yeah. Made in America. Yeah. Now, when I, when I watched that and I'm like, But I don't know what that perspective was. Right? Because someone is saying something from a different lens. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So their perspective when they making that. But when I think about 13 year old me I was like, I don't think he did it.

But after watching that documentary like, I think he did it, he. I have to watch that documentary. Okay. So. that's how it got to American. No no no. Yeah, yeah I'm loving it. And and so that's that actually prompts a question that I have for you. This is, this is. a puzzle that I've been playing with in my head. Oh sorry. Sorry. Don't forget your face. But also another thing, how I learned this is crazy.

How I learned which city is in is in each state in America. Was by watching. At the time it was WWF wrestling. Because they would say. from Austin, Texas, Shawn Michaels and that is you just saw good. go all from Detroit, Michigan, Big Daddy Gold Deville. And I was like, oh. And I literally learned, oh, okay. But I didn't know what was the state and tried to figure out.

what is the thing they mentioned first and then they mentioned second. And then I figured out, oh, it's a state and it's a city. And then I go, you know what makes this more impressive. is that you're doing this pre-internet, pre-internet, and post village, Yeah. No, it's thoroughly impressive. Okay. But so here's the puzzle. And I think you, you you are uniquely positioned. to help me answer this, because I don't think we'll figure it out. But maybe maybe we can we can sort of get close to it. I was thinking the other day.

Oftentimes when people exist in the time that they're in, they are the worst people to judge the time that they're in. Right? So nobody can judge the future because it hasn't happened. We can all judge the past if we are present, but the people of the present are the worst judges of the present. because they're in it right now. I think about this with everything that has happened in time. So if you look at World War Two, I'm often shocked at how most of the world,

especially the United States, didn't want to do anything, even though Hitler was on his journey to wipe out Jewish people. Do you know what I mean? Like, it's it's pretty crazy when you read. and then you see American articles from back then and they're like, oh, yeah, you know, we got to let Germany be Germany and do their own thing. And we're not involved in what other countries are doing. And and we spoke to Hitler and he said it's not that bad. So we're moving on. And you're just like, wait, this was an actual real thing. And now it seems completely obvious, right? But at the time they were like, no, we're making the prudent decision.

to not get involved in another war that doesn't involve us, etc., etc., right? I mean, there's countless. examples. throughout history, whether it's slavery, whether it's, you know, and obviously that people for and against at the time. But it becomes hindsight that gives you a certain level of clarity. that allows you to judge, I think, more accurately, but never perfectly, because it, it even it will change. And so the thing I've been playing with recently is.

like, if you want to talk about a masterclass. in branding, Trump does the thing. that makes him look good. I almost think that. I don't, but I feel like. though there are going to be two trumps, right? The Trump, both the first term and the Trump of the second presidency. Damn, I'm going to. You made me feel like Terminator one and two. I'm not even joking. I don't know why. When you said that, in my head, I pictured. Terminator one and Terminator to Terminator one was the bad guy,

and then Terminator two was now the good guy. So he's the the first one. He's like, he is. He didn't think I was going to win. I don't think he wanted to win. You know, the first guy, you know. But then now he's in this thing, now he's the president. Okay, great. He has his unprepared as well. So and but now he understands the levers of power. He just gets it. I mean, I remember reading, something. about what makes great politician.

Yeah. Like, great politicians are great at stagecraft, so they understand for them, they understand the theater. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. The actors basically. That's what it was. I remember reading somewhere where someone was describing. Mandela as a great actor. And, and they. use that example when he walks out of the, the treason trial. and when he's found guilty and he makes that speech and when he says, what, was the speech?

Remind me somebody might give a speech very famous at the end. Yeah, we all know it in the room. Come on, guys, we all know it. You the guy who was going to remind. know, well, you basically was basically saying that. Well, if you find me guilty of that. Yeah, it is an ideal for which I am prepared. You know, it's an ideal I want to live for. But if I'm prepared to die, if needs be something. Yeah, but anyway, we'll play it. We should just play. Yeah.

And then when he walks out of the his. his what he knows of the last day of the talk, he's wearing his closet with just a war warrior outfit. because he knows that is going to come across as defiant. Every single picture in the world will have him as a as this guy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So is this kind of just a position between like this oppressed heroes fight. against this, people dressed like this and and like just throughout his life.

And I think that Donald Trump is a natural actor. He's phenomenal. I can't think of a single American politician. in the history of the United States. Does better at stagecraft than Trump. No, I, I agree with for for better or worse, but no, just the stagecraft. One of the things I've heard about. multiple people who've been in Trump's orbit, is he, in a weird way, Trump is more honest about the game of American politics.

than most American politicians are. Have you seen when Trump even said when he'd be on stage. and he'd be like, you know, folks, I can do what they say. He's not British. The presidential. I can be presidential, I can be. It's so easy I can stand. You say, oh, hello everybody. So good to be. I can do it. So you want me to be presidential? I could be presidential, but in the in the craziest way he was. It's that's what I think I find fascinating about the man is that. Trump says the thing that he's doing out loud, but the people don't.

hear it or process. It's I think it's because it's so honest. and transparent that they can't believe it's real. I don't know what it is because it's because no one does it. You not supposed to do that. Yeah, I guess, and then he does it and then it's like, okay. And and he likes to be like, he loves to be like, I think this is number one drug. And I think this is why this, I suppose a lot of these tech tech CEOs have figured out about him.

It's like, just like him. And then and then everything is fine, you know? Well, I don't know if everything will be fine. Well, I mean, is not for you because here's the problem, right? Yeah. Here's the problem. The one problem that I think people will face with Trump is this. Yes, he likes to be liked, but if everyone likes him. and all these people have conflicting and he is an enemy as well. Yeah, but even so, if everyone likes him, those people still have conflicts of interest with each other. like they have conflicting interests. So now who's like, comes before the other person's like this?

People who've come in kissed the ring with Trump. and then Trump is like, yeah, the stupid person came and kissed the ring. They came here. They let me put my fingers in their mouth. Yeah. You know, I mean, there's no guarantee, but but like, I don't know, I don't know. This is why I oscillate between the two thoughts. On the one. hand, I think to myself, Trump has all of the ingredients to be a dictator. On the other hand, I go. His incessant need to be liked means he can't be a dictator.

Yeah, because. dictators can sort of operate outside of the realm of being liked. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Yes. They don't they don't care. Yeah. They go like I don't care. Not that they don't care about it. I know they don't make you like him. No. Because you think so. You know, I think like you have to act like you like him to make you like. Oh, yeah, that's true. I didn't mean, but that's what I'm that. No, but that is what I'm saying. I'm saying there's there's two sides. Right? You can love being liked so much. that you have all the ingredients to be a dictator. So you go, I'm going to create the reality that I exist in.

That means I'm always like him. Or you can like being liked so much that you go like, I would never be a dictator. because I want the people to like me. Yeah, yeah. And with him you don't know. But what I do know is Americans firmly believe, and this is something I both love and also sometimes find amusing. about America and Americans, is they truly believe it is impossible that it can happen in their country. And and that is impossible. I mean, there are. many are many countries that were didn't think dictatorships in that.

Yeah, it doesn't happen. I mean, I think, you know, speaking about Trump, I stand to be corrected on this. But I remember reading this once that like most dictators were voted in. Yeah, there were people forget that they didn't. Yeah. Didn't take power. Yes. They were voted in. I mean they just kept power. Putin was voted in. I mean, Mugabe was one guy was voted in. You think of anybody, they were voted in. What's fascinating to me about him is that. I think maybe I'm wrong about that. He likes to be like, yes, he likes to be like, yeah, but he likes to be liked by people he disagrees with but respects.

Yes. And and craves admiration. But I think that for him it's that. And I think that's why he like that this tech guys he respects them because. well they're rich. They're you know the big companies. I also think it's often times. we forget that the way we're processing someone or something. is in relation to us, and the US can be anywhere. Right. One of the more eye opening experiences I ever had was when I went to the Middle.

East and I actually, like, really got to spend time there. And I was in Qatar and I was in the UAE. So, you know, Dubai and Abu Dhabi and I was in Oman and all these places. And it was amazing to see how differently people thought about Trump. They. Yeah, like I thought in those places people would hate Trump more than anyone. because Trump was like, I'm doing the Muslim ban, right? I realized that I had done what I think a lot of people do. I had assumed or even believed.

that I embodied the offense. that the other person was experiencing, okay, when they themselves weren't. And, you know, we see this oftentimes in society where somebody will be offended. on behalf of others more than those people themselves are offended. Right? Like, remember when, remember when, Tom Hanks, his son, put out that video speaking patois from Jamaica. Yeah. Right. And like full on. And he was and he's like fluent and he's like doing it. But yeah you're, you're, you're, you're damn what you can do for it.

And he's like he's nailing you guys crushing it right. Not like what I just did. Now this guy's nailing it. He's absolutely nailing it dude. And then Americans are like, this is disrespectful. He must be canceled. This is blah, blah. And then Jamaicans came out and they were like, like, yo, this boy is completely fluent. He knows us. Everything he's saying is correct. Like you guys offense. Why? Why don't you want him to speak patois. and they were like, no, but but you guys don't understand what he's doing is wrong. And and Jamaicans are like, no it's not. It's also a lot of white Jamaicans.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's just how Jamaicans speak. Yes. Yeah. For me, learning the lesson was actually that with Trump. is that I was more offended. than the people in the actual Middle East. Two hours and. and everyone obviously I spoke to I spoke to a lot of people about this, and I was really shocked at how they saw it differently. There was a, a man in, I think we were in Qatar who said this to me,

really, really like, you know, he said it and it shook me in the right way. We were arguing about Trump and Presidents. and all of this and all of this and all of this. And I was like, yeah, but. And then he said to me, said Trevor, he said, I think sometimes maybe you're making mistakes. You know, he said, you see, in America, people are worried about the, whether the politician was polite. They're worried about the Trump maybe saying it the wrong way and saying, he said, I don't worry about it. So I don't worry about what you're doing. He says, because, look, my friend George Bush was very polite, but look at my region.

He's a look at what George Bush and his politeness did to my region. So, so if you are going to bring me somebody who is rude, but they're not going to bomb the Middle East, I will take that. And I was like, damn. Do you do you know what I mean? It was like, I think like like. Trump does make you question what is more important. And it's not that it is a binary. Yeah. But is it, is it the. is it how is it how you present the thing or is it what you actually do.

Yeah I think it's, you know, so if you like to go back to the like, you know, a homeless person asking for money, what is better to smile at them. and tell them you don't have money or to take money and throw it at. And I know people be like, no, but neither one or no. But I'm saying like, if there were only two options, which one would you choose? Would you choose that? Somebody smiles and says, I don't have money and walks away and is very kind or nice? Or would another person comes with a wad of cash,

throws it at the homeless person and then walks away? So yeah, I think is that. you need to ask the homeless person you find the homeless person. That is funny. There's a verse in the Bible. Yeah. Parable. Jesus. So Jesus talks about a son, Jesus, Jesus Christ, Jesus Christ. Okay. Just checking. Just check it. So Jesus talks about I forget the exact parable, but what he says in this parable is,

the father has a son to do something. Right? Okay. And then the sign is like, no, I'm not going to do it. I hear it's rude to his father. Yeah, ask another son. And the son says, yes, I'll do it. This polite son doesn't do the thing. The son was not polite is not going to do the thing. Yeah. Does the thing that the father asked him to. Okay. Right. So it feels like. And then it seems like then Jesus kind of praises. the son who said I. wouldn't do it, but he did it, but does does a thing.

So again, it feels like that parable. Oh, so then Jesus, right? She just disagrees with you. Just so you. you that the J. And Donald J. Trump is. Yeah, that Jesus disagrees with you. But Donald Trump. don't go anywhere because we got more. What now? After this?

By the way, you've started going to church now, right? Yes. Yes, yes. Like why? I would love to know why. So why? Well, first of all, because I, I assumed that you weren't religious. Because of all the years that I've known. And then now you you you, like, go to church? Yes. So. Well, as you know, I lost my mother last year. So which was like. Like I say, now it's, in two days time, it's going to be exactly year since. How old was your mom? And she was. She was, she just turned 70, so I just.

Yeah. I'm. It's not young, but that's young. Especially considering how she was. You know, she's just super active and, you know, so then I never. I mean, I remember driving, you know, to the funeral with my sisters. So they're in the car at the back, and I'm driving. and I'm leading the funeral procession to the church. And I said to them, guys, and you know that thing? I don't know how to quantify the thing that you get lump in your throat.

or you feel like, I'm just and I'm trying to not cry as I'm talking to my sister. Yeah. And I said, guys, I'm not going to talk. I'm not going to speak at the funeral. I know I'm supposed to, but I'm I'm not going to do it. I, I can feel I won't be able to do it. Damn. Once I'm in front of the church, it's going to be impossible. And they're like, no, you can't do that. You know? You know, she would have wanted you to like you. And I was like, kind because you and your mom were close. Yeah. And then I'm like, I, I can't, I can't, you know. So then we get to the church.

and they like to plonk you right in front of the fricking coffin. Yeah, the side of the family. So now I was like, oh my God, this thing is right. It's more real. And that that feeling was even more profound is like, there's no way. I know I won't be able to speak, but then. there's women that want. My mom went to church with the outfit, the celebratory singing, the like, just singing like, you know. And they kept coming, looking at me, there's this, this old woman,

she's 93 or 94. All that tiny, real I know not many people. smaller than me, but yet she was like, really? And she keeps going like this, and she's singing and they're so joyous. And then I got up and I joined them, and I started singing and every single time. And I felt this, I must, I think I almost. felt her presence, my mother's presence, and I felt God's presence. And I was like, wow. At that moment, I was feeling so.

broken and weak and unable. I was like, wow, I know I can speak now, I know I can speak, and I got out and what? In fact, I didn't even. make that speech that I had prepared in my mind. I literally got up and sang and which I would never do in public. And I urge anybody not to give it a try to hear you singing in public. And I started singing. What did you sing? I did the song by, it took a village tradition, plus a song.

that was made famous by I also a a plus the singer. Is the Yankees and is it a woman? My low on desire low. I know which is like. This is my mother who is raised, who has. Yeah, yeah. Who has raised me. And and then I did this big photo, and I was holding this photo of her and singing this song. And then I just started speaking quite joyously about her.

Very brief, very short. And. And then I was like, next week when I go back to Joburg, I'm going to church. And and that was it. And that's when I started. That's why I started going to church. I'm assuming you grew up going to church? Oh yeah. Cause we all we all did. Yeah. So when, when had you stopped going to church? I stopped probably going. to church, maybe 2006. This is when you got a million subscribers on YouTube.

It is. Right. View as view. Yeah. View as vs view. Yeah. A million views on YouTube. And then you were like, who needs God? God, I am God. In fact, that's how I did it. That's how it felt like I got into touch and Caesar actually. YouTube. Wow. Yeah. I think you sent me I think was mailed each other. Wow. Damn. Yeah. Subscribe. No way. Yeah, I know the whole community. It's global. Yeah. Oh, wow. Yes. Yeah. So.

And then this guy. didn't Doja Cat also email you. Oh my goodness. Like a child child Doja Cat yeah. that's like before she had Doja Cat Doja Kitten didn't she email you. It's a one thing. She did mail me. But I mean, she was like 13. So send me an email because obviously because she was watching my videos. on YouTube as a 13 year old. and seniors from South Africa, socialism in an email. So the the hi my name is I'm Los Angeles Laminate.

and my father is Dumisani. He's this famous actor in South Africa and said I finna I'm trying to get hold. I've never met him. Wow. When I get hold of him. And would you find a way to get me in touch with him? And I felt so. My heart like Isaac, she's 13, she's like a child. and she's gone to this extent. And I was like, I'm. So I can find him easily, right?

Because my cousin is an actor. You probably know Zuma. So. Yeah. So I sent I don't know this guy. Yes. Where is the how can I get in touch with him? Another cousin, Namibia, doing whatever it says this way is. try to get in touch with him. Told him that. Gave him the information about his daughter. And, he just never responded. And then I, I sent an email back and I told her, like,

I'll do what I. can, but I, I don't know what to do. And then one of his daughters, who lives in Soweto but different mother also sent me. an email, having seen the fact that, like. because I wrote a post, I think I wrote a post. Yeah, yeah. You had put a yeah, posted a blog about this. Yes. And then I posted a blog and what I asked about, and I was like, well, if anybody knows where he is that it is. and then one of his, one of his daughters also sent me like an,

an email and said, okay, this is my email address. Please send my email address to to Amala. And then they would get in touch. And there was the last. there was the last thing I did was my last interaction with them. And I felt very sad because they never got in touch. Obviously up to, you know, to this day as far as I know. So and there was long before the Doja Cat, she was just like a 13 year old girl watching YouTube videos.

You know, I wonder what it is about you that. that makes people feel like you can or would be willing to help them. Because even in hearing the story, I think to myself, like, I know I've done that with you in some ways, I think all of us. people in general, they'll turn to you as Kaia and be like, Kaia, can you help me do this? Can you help me find this? Can you help me. figure this out? Can you help me? Right. And I'm.

You think it's his smile? Yeah, but I think it's more. There's something I don't know. I don't know what it is about you. Because you you also have a yearning to help people. Do you know what I mean? I remember when I was going to appear on The Daily Show. You're one of the people I called. was like, yo, man, I'm going to go on the show. You the you literally the. the person who for me knows the most about American politics. I need your help. You know, and you didn't you were never like. No. In fact when we met this is, this is how I met Kaia.

when we met. So Johannesburg South Africa has a very small middle class. So if you know, if your family. was lucky enough to move in some way, you sort of knew each other as people. and I remember I would go out to parties. or, you know, bridges or what Americans call barbecues or. whatever. It was nothing fancy, by the way, because I wasn't in entertainment in any way.

And everywhere I would go, I would see this guy. this short. Charismatic human. being with a dazzling smile, always laughing, always talking to people. And I'd always see him and you'd greet me, not greet you. But I didn't know you. And. But you just greet. And you, just like you have welcoming eyes, you know? And the other thing I noticed. was oftentimes you were either surrounded by. businessmen in suits or stunning models.

And I mean, just like gorgeous like and I mean surrounded. And I think it was more noticeable because models are generally like six feet tall. Yeah. And then you were like, you know what I mean? So it would be like this. It was, it was, it was, it was quite a sight to behold. And I remember one day this is when I plucked up. the courage in Cape Town, and I came up to you. and I said, hey, man, I don't know who you are. I don't know your name.

But I said, but you are surrounded by the most beautiful women I've ever seen. And I said, I just want to be your friend. I said, please, can I just be your friend? I remember, yeah, I remember you. Yeah. Upstairs. And you laughed and you were like, yeah, okay. And you were just. But I mean, like, most people would be like, what? This guy was like. Yeah, okay. Well I guess and he was like, we can be friends. And we literally that's how we became. And we exchanged numbers. And you were just like, all right, we can be friends.

And it's so fun. And those are with American models. And I don't know, because I never got to be I know he did. like what was our friendship, by the way? I never met a model because of you. I know, but I'm happy. But I was just it's just funny to me that, like, that's how I met your. That is funny because. Because actually, what happened there was that. Because I remember, like, this friend of mine, was a girl. He lived in New York, but was in Jo'burg. Yeah. And I said, I have this friends of mine who are in Cape Town.

The models, they don't know where to go unless you're in Cape Town. Can I show them? I'm sorry. That's that's how I ended up. But, you see, this is what I mean. Cause boys needed by people. And if you need models to fix, you need someone. If you have models, you need someone. Models who don't know where to go. You quote Kaia anything. Respond. I think that's old Kaia. You used to bring models. Now I just bring stories about Uber drivers. Yeah, yeah yeah. Old man yeah, yeah.

But it's I think it's like a beautiful quality, like. You know, in the same way I think of the stories of your grandfather. And, you know, I haven't actually I've never heard many stories with you. With your dad, actually. Oh, yeah. That's what. Well, crazy thing about my dad is. we with one was celebrating my sixth birthday. Yeah, in the village, the news came that he died. Literally. Were having a party.

that had a great party, like sixth birthdays were like a big thing. Yeah, and guava juice, you know. Hey, the garbage is, you know, made in the garbage. So they got the garbage juice. And then because the village, there were no telephones. Yeah. This is the 80s. Got a phone call. They sent a telegram. And from the shop, someone walked from the shop. to my grandparents house to deliver the telegram to say that, well, they just received the news that my father had passed away,

and I think it passed away for a few days because no one, for some reason, they could not identify it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, he was, but the one story, I mean, the two stories that I remember that I've been told about my father, but my favorite story about my father was. how petty he was. Yeah, he was high. It was like. But but petty, I think for a reason. So his father, my grandfather. Not not Alfred Kaiser. Boys. This is. Yeah.

Paolo. Lung. Paolo. Paolo. Paolo. Paolo's lung. So he had, he had a post in advance. I don't know how this happened. So the story I I've never had never met him. So he had a post this way. He was somehow in the, in the chemistry department. and he was a lecturer or something. I don't know how. Lecturer. And then the professor, he was working without the white guy.

because I said, yo, I just found out that you're about to be arrested. You'd better leave. Go to La Suta. So he runs off to listen to this. So this is your grandfather on your dad's is my dad's. Okay? Got it. So he's. He's a lecturer at a South African university? Yes, they. He was suspected because he taught chemistry. They thought that he was teaching, freedom fighters how to make bombs. And that's how they were saying that. And was he. maybe, I don't know. Okay. Oh, okay.

So, you know, long before your time, that was your grandfather? I have no idea. So that's why they. I use them off. Because teaching chemistry. And his colleague tells him I've just found out. that you're about to be arrested, I'm assuming, by the apartheid government. Okay. Yeah. And so now he flees the country, he flees the country, goes to okay, got it. And ends up in destitute and gets a teaching post. He's teaching at the university there called University of Rome. So he's there. So he's in exile now. The guy's an exile. So this is there for a few years. And,

I mean, my grandmother used to tell stories about the people. who go to the house, like. Mandela, Sobukwe, and all of those people that, you know, they'd be there with him. And. But one day they received a letter. I actually have a copy of the letter from the Minister of Home. Affairs of Lesotho, basically saying that they have received word. that his continued presence in the city. presents an imminent danger to the safety and security of lives. V2 and therefore they give him 24 hours to leave the country.

Who's this letter coming from? From the home affairs of the city. But they were pressurized. That's. What about the South African government? Wow. So the apartheid government says to the government, yes, you guys are harboring a terrorist attack. Yes. Which is your grandfather? Yes. And if you don't buy him. Yeah. Then this is now going to have to go. Yeah, yeah. Will happen. And so he left before like the deadline and obviously backwards.

So that so he could easily shoot to his wife listlessly to leaving my father. and you know his kids there and the leaves back roots. But then somehow the cops find him. He's in South Africa not. Yeah. He's left the city. They find him, arrest him, torture him. So he is tortured and to such an extent that it becomes, Well, it doesn't get almost half paralyzed. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And is. And they like the guy take him to court because there's nothing can do not. torture them so much. And eventually, you know, about a year or two later, he dies.

And so my father is I'm saying this is my favorite story about my father. So my father then becomes a traffic cop, like in the 80s. It's becomes a cop and traffic cop. And they get called to the head offices of them tied to, you know, that trans guy in another country. This is the region where he lives. So now he is is someone that he has no idea has been called. It goes to the top bosses and they ask him like this. They they bring a file there, like.

they open the file to say, explain yourself. Why is it that every single traffic fine is to a white person? You don't find you don't find any black people? All these fines, I just white people. And this says, well, well, most people who drive cars are white, and they say, so you're saying that black people don't they don't commit traffic offenses. And he would find them for the tiniest infringement.

And basically, he was given a warning that, if he continues a fight and then he quit. Wow. So it has its own little rebellion, I think against the. I think is quite just, I guess, what happened to his father. Kudos. Yeah. So like that's, that's the the only story that, I know of him. Damn. I like that because I was too young. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't think about. So that was, that was, I thought it was a frickin.

He would have. He would have worked. Well as a as a cop in America, but they would have been like, listen, same tactic, but for the race, you're doing very well. You're doing very well. You just got the skills. You've got the skill you got, you got the skills. You look natural. But now what we just need to do is flip it, flip it the other. way, and, and you'll meet your quotas. I'd love to know. Okay. Like, one of the key. Like, one of the things I really admire about you is how. You have such a giving nature as a person and giving in,

in, in a multidisciplinary way, like you, you're giving person with your time. You're a giving person with your knowledge. You're giving person with your, attention. You're giving person with your like. anything, man. Anything. You just you're a giving person. And I was thinking about this the other day. I was like, I don't know many people who've experienced. more loss than you have, especially in, like short amount, short amounts of time,

you know, and sometimes I'll see your posts online, you know, when it's like your, your mum's. the anniversary of your mum's passing. And I know one of the biggest ones was your youngest brother, you know. What do you think it is about you? That keeps you being generous. and hopeful and optimistic, despite feeling so many losses.

or despite experiencing so many moments that could turn you the other way. Because I, I honestly, I I'm not I don't just admire it. I've been inspired and shocked by it because. I haven't seen you hardened. I haven't seen you. hopeless. I and maybe you hide it. I hope you don't as a friend, but I would love to know what like. what keeps you going? In the face of something that could, like, dim the lights in many people's eyes,

it sure. That's such a wow. I've never thought about that to such a difficult question to answer. You know, I think, this is gonna sound maybe a little crazy, but I remember the year I lost my brother. We were in LA with your mother in December. We were you and I. Yes, yes, yes, yes. This was so that was Covid.

Yeah, that was Covid. Yeah. And I remember, like, just having these conversations with her mother, like a faith and, like, resilience. I mean, there's. this profound, I think, belief that she has. Yeah. My mom is that I it's it's, you know, my mum is unwavering. It's it's crazy because, I mean, we and I think we connected. in such a nice way to the mother in that, in that very short space of time.

And she'd go out and pray and all of that. And I think part of what helped me like. maybe that moment and have faith also just put me back on the grid. There are certain things that I remember when reading when I read the Bible. Yeah. Which was because the Bible like makes like. seven Assurances, which like things, bad things are going to happen. Yeah. So therefore they're guaranteed to happen and they will happen. And so and one of them is like,

and it's like, like when you walk through the rivers, you will not be swept away when you walk through the fire, you will not be burnt. So the bad things will happen as they should. And I think we're not put on this earth for, you know, for pleasantness. And I think that in most people, like, I mean, I it's, I mean, I always judge myself and feel like, I have little contribution. when I think about the gifts that I have.

I think as a person, I've always found that crazy about you. I always tell you this, that. I always feel like you minimize how much you contribute to everything. Oh, okay. But always. Yeah. And I've always told you this. I know you have. That's true. Like you and and you always remind me of crazy. And you always say that, like, I am more than. what I think I am always, Which is.

And I suppose I need to get to that place. And you always say that I just need to get to that place. So I just take it and just take that. And maybe I'm not at that place yet, and it's, you know, it's going to come right. And but and I think for me it's those guarantees. that I know when you do this you will be okay. It is it will happen. And so I tried I tried to arm myself. with the knowledge that tough things are going to happen, okay. And therefore if they happen, I should be prepared.

But I mean, the one thing that I've, I was never prepared for my brother. It that hit me harder than anything else than anything could be. What? Why was that? Because I it's just like a thing that I thought would never happen. I, I just did not think that someone close to me. would take their own life, you know, it's not it. He lived with me. Damn. So my brother lives with me. What did I miss? How could I not see this? Yeah, I claim to love.

This person was a so self-absorbed. So this questions I was asking about myself. And, I mean, he has going through an addiction, gambling addiction. I didn't even see it in the live with me. And I didn't know, which is what eventually led, you know, to him taking his life. And so I, I mean, I took some active decisions once I found out that he was gambling. and he'd got himself into, like, a hole that he really couldn't. get himself out of and. got him to therapy.

And, I mean, he worked with me. I had to fire him. I forced him to call my mother. I just tried to kick him out of my place as a threat. Yeah. I mean, can you imagine having to sit across a river. and tell him, listen, I'm firing you, and then I have to follow him? And I said, listen, I love you. I'm not being mean, malicious. But this is for you to get better. That in four months you're going to come back, you know? Yeah. You got to come back and work just to do, to get better.

I gave him the phone. I said, I'm not going to call my mother and tell her that I've had to fire you. Yeah. You take the phone and you call and you tell her, and he had to go. So there were like a series of decisions that I made and. and what was very crazy, I think for a very long time after that, after he took his life and the decisions that I had made, what was that question? Did I push him too hard, too quickly? Now I can only imagine. And I became very doubtful of almost any decision I was making.

So it was very hard for me to. make decisions for a very long time when I was like, oh my! Because. I felt that the decision decisions. that I may have made may have led my brother. to make the decision, even though I know that, like, logically, yeah, I know that, you know, but then this I know. Yeah. And so the emotional pressure, the emotional question was just like, but what if, you know, I drove him too hard and so I blame myself, you know,

for all of that, even though I know that I shouldn't and there's no blame. Yeah. So, I, you know, I struggled and obviously. having these conversations with your mother and then like the faith. aspect of it for me was very important. And, and then, I mean, like one of my favorite scriptures is job in the Bible. Well, job in the beginning, he loses everything in everything.

And then at the end of it, after has lost everything. The thing the job says is like naked I came naked, I shall depart. May the name of the Lord be praised. And then I was like, okay, that means we need to find joy in whatever way we can. And a lot of the time. during the losses is trying to find that. It's interesting, because I don't think that maybe I've found joy myself,

but I feel like people, like friends, have made sure that I am okay in order for me to have that. to to have a springboard that, I mean, not like, oh, yeah, I see exactly what you're saying to find to find myself. Because, when I think of all my friends like you or. the sea is where Lisa and Nelly like a whole bunch of. Yeah, yeah, we're just so there in ways that I just couldn't imagine. And I had.

And I think that's not really it is friends. Honestly, sincerely. If and I don't know if it's a I don't think it's anything. I definitely think that it's the people who, who probably see the value in me as a person. And because I see that value. that I see that there is. and there's something more to life, I guess. I don't have an answer to, you know, it's a very difficult question.

because I've never thought about it. No, I don't understand. I've literally never thought about it. And, I mean, you know, when I think. because also at the same time, you know, he lives with me, it's my brother. And then I feel, I think the worst guilt I also felt was like, oh my God, is my mother going to blame me? Yeah, dude, I can only imagine, you know what I'm say. And what did she say? Oh, Jesus. You said to me because she was with me all the through, every step of the way, everything I had to do.

She said, you know, like she said, you did more than you should have. And which is essentially. what my brother actually said in his own suicide note that he left. She was, you know, you you you did more than a brother should have done. And that's what my mother said to me. But that didn't. I suppose that to make you feel good, you know, either. But but you don't feel.

Yeah. And she was like you. You did more than you should have. And also, like, at the funeral, she spoke. Well, she didn't speak. Someone read the note that she wrote, which was the most gracious thing. I've ever read in my entire life. Which she said. is, I mean, at the end of it, it was so nonjudgmental. She said you were tired.

of the things of this world. And rest my son, you know, and. Yeah. Which was Isaac, I mean, at the end of it, I was like, wow, what a thing to say. But I'll never forget the evening of the funeral. Everybody's gone to just my stuff, my mother and my two sisters. It's just us, you know, we're watching TV that we're not really watching.

We're just sitting there quietly and because everyone is gone. and, she said, well. And she said, In Tulsa. Was I, which means. I am going to die next year. And I was so angry. And I was like, don't say that. What are you saying?

You have other children, you know, and I said this and. and she was just saying it to herself in adjusting to herself. and not even saying to us and, then and then she said, what am I? She said, because her mother died, a mother. lost a son, you know. And she said, when mother lost a son, in 1987, in 87 and ADHD passed away.

So I'm. this was going to happen to her and so and what I would do after that. I just give it I just caught because I was in Covid. So I'd call it like all the time just to make sure that like, you know, she's not. you know, she's not. leaving, she's not leaving. And I just and I think I was calling it for my own selfishness, actually, just to make sure that she, she knows that I'm okay, that she's okay. Yeah. All of that. And they were fine. And I was like, oh, she's getting better.

And this is just got sick, you know, and I think, I mean, it took like three years for it to get really sick and cancer. She was very healthy. She just got almost overnight. And this cancer, which I think she was, she hid, you know, from us because. Yeah, she really did want to die. And I think it was heartbreak that really just. It does. Definitely. It does what the cancer does. Like, because I almost feel.

like in many ways she called it upon herself. And, and I think she knew she had cancer. She just didn't tell anybody. Because my mother's a no problem. You know, like, a lot of, you know, cancer women. Very proud. Yeah. Strong woman. She's like, I'm not gonna. And so I yeah, it was it was it. It's very difficult. It's it's it's a lot I don't, I don't know it's.

I don't have the answers I just, I just don't have the answers. But that was a very hard thing to hear her say when she said, I'm. going to die next year, and then there's nothing I can do about it, you know? So yeah. So I but honestly, I think for me, it's. a privilege to. if I didn't have the friendships that I have, I, I, I don't know what the faith.

and the friendships that I have, I don't know where I would be. I genuinely don't know. because they because they don't. friendships don't give you a chance to. to wallow. I think in this field I think they need to feel. Yeah, but, they don't dwell on it, you know, like I have this quote that I,

that I wrote myself to quote myself. and the and what I always say. and I think I said it because, oh, it's a beautiful thing to say. Oh, sounds so nice. Which was, even in my darkest hour, I glow in the dark. And it's a thing that. I was like, oh, it's a very it's a very beautiful thing to say. And I wrote this thing, years ago, long. before I experienced the kind of pain that I would feel. And I think that.

the glowing in the dark. is caused by people around you who love you. So. Yeah. No. That's beautiful. Okay. Thank you for sharing that, man. You. You know, it's funny. You and your brother are the reason, like, when we started the podcast, podcasting is weird because. it's one of the few, you know, broadcast mediums or whatever.

where you're sort of directly tied to the advertising, you know? So when you're on The Daily Show, when you're on another TV show, they just play ads in between. In podcasting, the ads are sort of tied to the show in some ways, you know? And so I remember when we launched the podcast. explaining the system to me and how it works that like, well, you know, people don't pay for the podcast. And so you do advertise. I was like, okay, whatever. And you get the ads that come in. And one of the ads. that we used to get on the podcast was sports betting. You know, like all sports betting, sports betting, sports betting.

And there was one day when I was reading. like the terms and conditions of the sports betting, and I don't know why you and your brother came into my head. And I said to the team after that, I was like, we can't, we can't do this anymore. And then we're like, why? And I was like, because. it's not real. Do you know what I mean? You know, when they go, like, gamble responsibly, that's not that's not a real thing.

You know, it's not someone might say, oh, yeah, but I mean, anything can go. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But we have to admit, there's certain things in life. that have a far. worse ramification than others. You know, like you and I. Funny enough, in Cape, we're talking to a friend from London. We didn't know. I didn't know that she had a gambling addiction. We didn't know it was a crazy story. Crazy. So the UK has this thing. where you can put somebody or put yourself.

really on a list where you are banned from all gambling or gambling, and when you're on that list, they can't take your money, they can't allow you to gamble, they can't. And once you on the list, I think there's like different fees you can be on for a year. You can be on for three years, you can be ten years or something, maybe even forever. But you and then you have to call to take it off of the list. And there's a series of things you have to answer. But the point is, she was telling us. the story about gambling, and I was thinking of you again, and your brother. And I was just like. The thing about gambling in particular is,

on the face of it, gambling is fun and innocuous, right? It's a fun thing. Hey, I bet you this can't happen. I bet you that can't happen. I know, like you were saying, with insurance on catch Fire, but you won't catch fire a bit. Yeah. But when people work. to make you gamble more than you can and should. I don't know man. It's. and I feel like this about like a few products. that we've allowed in society and in the world is.

we've made it seem like it's all about the individual's responsibility. But we know that there are certain individuals. who can't override that because it's it's been designed to heck that, yeah, you know, they'll make certain foods addictive. But then we blame people for being addicted to them. But it's like, yeah, but you also made it it to you. You know, someone will go like, oh yeah, but why did they smoke? It's like, yeah, but you know that smoking is addictive. and gambling is one of those as well.

Like the way they make, the way they, they loop people in with parlays and bets. and double or nothing in this and get that, then you can get a free. And they always group unit free. Hey, hey come in. Start with a free one. Your free bet. Start with a free bet. And and I remember thinking I was just like, damn man. I was like, am I? Because I genuinely, I kept on thinking of, like, somewhere out there. there might be some kid, some person who's listening to your podcast. and they go like, oh, well, free, free bets. I might want to join in. And then you just you don't know, you know,

because you've seen the insidious side of it. It's so funny. I. so I've asked myself this question. as like, well, what if a betting company came to me and said, hey, influences? I was like, well, I, I, I know I wouldn't do it right, right. But but at the same it's so fun. There's another friend of mine, he called me up the one time and he was like, well, while he's this betting company has called him. and I want him to influence something and he's like, he's not going to do it.

And I was like, I think you should if, you know, I don't think that you should not do it because, you know, but then again, it's because he maybe met my brother and not often. So it felt like too close to home. And and it's such a, I mean, for example, like, and this is what I think about. So now because people die in car accidents and I'm not trivializing. No, no, no. Yeah. You know. No trivializing. Yeah. People die in car accidents.

And then there's a car company that's like okay, great. Well some people take that lives in cars. Yeah. Right. Yeah. So does that mean that one should not. then advertise. a car. So I hear what you're saying, but I and I it's funny you say that I've asked myself. this question and I think this is oftentimes how certain. products, brands or services weasel out of a certain type of responsibility. They bring that up as an argument, and they've done. well to condition us to think that way.

The difference is there's no car manufacturer. who is secretly trying to make you die in a car accident. In fact, they do. You know what I'm trying to do the opposite there is. there is no car manufacturer who's going okay on the outside. We're going to advertise how safe a Volvo is. But guys, secretly we're going to make sure the brakes don't work. We're going to make the cargo faster than it says on the speedometer. We're going to make sure these people let's even get them to drive drunk. Let's advertise alcohol in the car while they're driving.

They don't do that. So a car accident. is an unfortunate byproduct of driving. It can happen. And over time it is happening less and less and less and less and less. because cars have gotten safer and safer and safer and safer and safer. Right? The exact opposite is true for gambling. Go and look. I don't care where you live in the world, guys. Gambling is now the thing. Oh it is. Every sports league has gambling sponsors. It's on the side of the boards.

It's on the advertising. It's on the. And again, by the way, I'm not even saying I'm anti-gambling. Please don't get me wrong. Like I you know me. I hate living in binaries. I'm not anti-gambling, but what I'm what I find myself. allergic and vehemently opposed to most of the time. is when we just aren't honest about the restrictions. or the limitations or the regulations we're putting on certain things. But then for something like gambling, I go, if we would, to find your documents, your your real documents that oftentimes get leaked when you get caught,

would we find that. you are actually trying to get people to gamble responsibly? Is that what we would find? Definitely. You know what I mean? The same way with social media companies, would we find that you are actively. trying to get people to not, you know, become depressed, lose their self-esteem, have a bad self-image? Are you actively because you say it's, hey, guys. Oh, social media platforms. Hey, guys, don't don't forget to take a break from your screen and go outside. But are you actively trying to do that?

Because the thing is, there's the thing you tell us in public and the thing you tell us in private too. Right. And so I think that's my issue is. governments have shown that they are far behind. where they need to be in terms of regulating gambling. I'm not going to be a crazy person and be like, no gambling. No, I won't say that. But I'm like, there are some industries that have found a way to get around. the regulations that try to keep as many people safe as possible, and the way they've done it is by flipping it. and making it a personal responsibility. Responsibility?

Yeah, gamble responsibly. But no one says to them, no, no, no advertiser responsibly. No one says to them, program your apps responsibly. No one says to them, vet your customers responsibly. It's always on you, Campbell responsibly. And when they do that, what they do is they make you, as an individual, feel like you are responsible for the thing that has happened to you. But in certain industries we don't. Yeah. There's no airline that can get away with saying like airmen choose the.

one that flies. because if they crash we come for them, we investigate the shit out of them. We're like, nah man, you have three crashes. now we're going to ground your airline. Actually, then they. they can be like, no, these passengers, they must pick better, man. Come on guys, what did you inspect the plane before you came to depicting the pick responsibly? I think there's a real big problem. And gambling is one of them. And the crypto space is another one. Whereby.

your best customer is the one that goes bankrupt on your product? Yes. There's no product that relies on you going bankrupt. Thinking of it? Yes. With cars, it's not it's not beneficial. to a car company for the person to spend all the time, you know, I mean, that's. what the bottom line is based on a lot of these crypto things. And, and I'll say things because I don't really know them, but an NFT thing forex. some, some forex stuff and online gambling,

the bottom line is reliant on people going bankrupt. Yes. That's that's what my problem. Never thought about that. That's actually. That's what I mean. My problem is people have been tricked into thinking that all products. are the same and all ramifications are equal. They're not, but they're not. Yeah. Because some, to your point, right, have been designed differently. They've been designed to do a different thing to you. So I'll give you a simple example. Imagine if they said. in the same way some countries have gone, you have to provide us with documents. before you get a phone number.

Like look at what South Africa did. You know, with like just going like, hey, we just Rica yeah. We just want to know we can't just have a phone number. We want to see your passport or your ID, or we want to know who has which phone number. Right. Account as well. Yeah. Bank accounts for certain things. You could do the same with gambling. You can say okay fine. Gambling services. The responsibility is on you. If you want people to be on your platform, they have to present you with their bank statements. and you are not allowed to allow them to gamble with more. than a certain percentage of their income. Yeah, like you do with credit. Yeah.

So the National Credit Act. Yeah, I think that's a great idea, but can only get a certain. based on what they earn. They do that with credit in America as well. You have a credit act where they say like they go, hey what's your credit score? I'm sorry, you can't buy this thing. So now my question to you is if we allow that for banks, if we're saying that like a bank cannot give you credit. when you don't have a good credit score. Yeah. Why why is it such a crazy idea to ask that of a gambling company? That's because fundamentally, it's the same thing we're saying. You cannot afford to pay back this loan.

So we will not give you the loan in the first place. Yeah. And I know there's many issues with credit scores and there's I. we can talk about that another time. But the underlying concept is still there and it's sound, why can't we do the same thing with gambling companies? And my question is why doesn't the gambling company want that? Because the gambling company be like, no, but I'm like, no, no, no. You guys say you want people to gamble responsibly. Let's help you. So then let's help you. Yeah. We're going to make sure that all your customers. can afford to pay every single bit. All your customers are not gambling beyond their means,

and you're still making money and everyone's having a good time. Why would they say no to that? Because fundamentally, their product is not about you. making money from them or them giving you something. No, their product is about extracting. as much wealth from you as it's humanly possible. And the ultimate conclusion for many people, as you've unfortunately learned, and, you know, like, I mean, like, like, like most, you know, company brands and companies and.

like alcohol, for example. Yeah, the about 20, 20% of the customers are responsible for 80% of the consumption. You know, apparently this is true for everything. Yeah. Everything. Yeah. Yeah. So I mean, this for ice cream, and I took it personally. because I, I am 20% you definitely. I buy 80% of the ice cream. In fact, everyone else in the world. You're welcome. Because of me. Because of me. You guys have ice cream? Well, I will literally say this. There are five of us here. Making 20% of us drivers has bought 80% of the ice cream.

We've bought. You know what I'm saying? That's why I'm saying I'm responsible for this company staying open. Yeah, for all of you. So you're welcome because you want to be. But now. Okay, so. That's an interesting question. Actually, a segue to ask is like your books, how many books have you written now? What are you on now? I'm. I'm number five. Number five. So the first one was in my in my arrogant opinion, that's my favorite title of all time because of who you are.

Yeah, I think it's my favorite title because you're so, so modest. and so considered and so the so, in my arrogant opinion, is amazing. Okay. Your second book, my second book was to quote myself, to quote myself. Okay. Yes. And the third book was. also my third. Oh, these things really do happen to me. Yes. Well, it was a lot of, some of these was like these Uber driver stories, but like way more crazy ones. Yeah. And then, and then is the answers for me, which was very different.

And then what made that one different because a lot of your, your books and I would, I would encourage people to get them because like. you and I, I don't say this just because you're my friend. I think it's one of the things. I've I've been lucky enough to learn and love about you is. you are one of my favorite storytellers ever. And your writing is like, I can see that you've been reading newspapers since you were 13. No, because the way you tell a story, the narrative, the.

the the way you bring things together, you tie stuff together. All your books are unlike, like time traveling between now and then. Yeah, now and then, now and then you'll talk about what's happening now, you know, some of your books you're talking about social media, but then you'll be talking about, like growing up in the village and, but then you'll find a way to tie social media into the village. And then in another book you'll be talking about, like, just life and the way. we see each other, but then you'll tie it into something that was or that is. And so what made that one difference? So so this one I actually wrote during Covid.

I live with my brother now is not anymore. Yeah, I kind of bump into him. I could walk around naked. I mean like. so now he had. so I, I just started asking people questions online. One of the I mean, when I think of one of the questions was, what what have you never said. to your parents that you wish you had have said to me, oh, wow. And the things that people said was so heavy.

And then eventually people say to me, can you please put put the answers, like in a book? Yeah. And I put that answer those answers. That sounds very different. Does I always like, is it a book? I don't know. Yeah. So there's that one, but I'm with you. And then, and then now this one, which is, the one that I'm, it's, I'm working on now, which is. Stan. Actually, it's. gone to the printers, I think on the 27th, I would say like a book is never done. It's just gone to the printers, because I don't know if you've had that.

I've had that experience where I just have to give the book in, but forevermore. I go, oh, I could have added this like, oh, I could have, I should have, yeah. But that's every everyone I know of who's ever written. the book says the same thing. Yeah. Okay. So this one, this this your latest book, which is coming out. Yeah. My latest book, which is coming out now is called. life is like that sometimes. Yeah. So it's like even the pictures are. that life is like that. Some time and again I talk about the village and then.

towards the end, obviously I talk about, you know, my brother, the journey. that he had had to go through with him and and losing my mother as well. So and it's, it's like this journey of life, you know, and I always say that when I look at my, my books, I think I kind of try to just, post rationalize them in. the sense that I say it is it's almost looking at. not recording history, but how we live life while history is happening.

So if, if, for example, if I talk about, so in the village, I would to take the bus, wake up at fourth, you know, at four with my gran would then take us to the school and take a bus. And that is, if the river was too high, then we'd have to wait. until, you know, so all of those kinds of thing. that is a consequence of apartheid, for example. So this is how we lived during apartheid.

And then so what happens when Nelson Mandela comes out of prison? Oh, the open schools to black kids to then I go to a school with white people. and people in the township see me wearing a school uniform. This little problem is 12 year old, you know, wearing this clothes. that they'll only see white kids wearing to school, and then they will. stop you on the street and be like, can you speak English? Okay. Yeah. They're like and yeah. Yes. Like really?

And then I yeah. And then they say, okay, speak English, then, you know the funny little bit, they used to do that to me. But then I would speak, but then they wouldn't know. whether or not it was English. It was always like the funniest look at it would be like, you know what I mean? Yeah, that's the thing is. Yeah. And I'm like, yeah, I speak and I'll be like, okay. Then I'll be like, hello, my name is Trevor. You know, like, yeah. Then I'm like, but you don't know if I can speak English because you can't speak English, right? So. and that's what I was saying, the books are.

Yeah. That they're saying they're literally was I mean, like one example. like I have is like, I'll never forget I'd broken my arm at to go to the hospital. and essentially a mechanic and the doctors are just white. I don't know why they're all white. And the doctor would have a nurse would translate for them. So now I've broken my arm. So the nurse is translating for the doctor. Yeah. And the doctor is like, okay. But then I respond in English. I could see the nurse with, what the heck? This child didn't just respond back in English, you know?

So the doctor says something, so she translates and I respond in English. So she goes like, this woman is so the nurse we are. comes and Donna comes up, which was means, oh my God, this child speaks English, this child speaks English. And she calls like the nurses in the ward and the all come. the surround on me while the doctors kind of work on me. So the doctor is like entertained, you know, all these nurses.

And they were like so shocked to see a child speaking. That's amazing. So again, I was like, it's like, what I'm saying is that, history is happening out of the yeah, yeah, yeah. This is what's happening. This is how we're living, you know. So anyway, I don't know why I said. that, but I think that's maybe what I do with my books. Yeah, I actually I actually think we need that because. sort of going to the beginning of our conversation, we're always at the mercy of the time.

that we are in, and we can only process it. through what we think will be a future lens, but more often than not is informed by a past lens. You know. So I don't know I think that's what I've always loved about your storytelling. and your books is that it does give some sort of perspective, like it's, it's one thing for people to go. Nelson Mandela was released from prison. Yeah. And apartheid ended. But it's like yeah, but do you know what it was like for a young boy from a village. who now goes to a city because of that?

Like the human side of political. ramifications is, is so much more interesting to me. because then it stops becoming such a theoretical thing. You get what I'm saying. Like I remember a friend of mine who's Palestinian, Mohammed, a great comedian, really funny. But one day he said something to me that really stuck with me. He said. I just wish more. people would see stories of Palestinian people. so that they would no longer refer to them as just numbers. ten Palestinians dead, 100 Palestinians data.

You know what I mean? It's like, no, it's not just a number. What if I told you a story of a little girl who was going somewhere. and they never got, they would like, do you get. I'm saying. let me tell you a story of a family who had a little store. that provided for the community, and now that building is no longer there. What, like the. And I realized that's the thing that limits our ability oftentimes. to care for somebody else is that we don't know their story. Yeah. That is so true. And if anything, I think in having this conversation, I've figured out.

a little bit more of quiet out is that you are such a village child. that you've carried the village. with you everywhere you've gone in the most beautiful way. You've carried it into your books, because in the village, I don't know if you remember. We barely talk about and I didn't live in the village, but I'd visit all the time, you know, not your village, but obviously, you know, my my family's ones. The conversations were never big. Never. They were always small,

but they had the most meaning. And I feel like now in society. And I'm guilty of this as well, even when I'm saying as I go, we have big conversations. that, if we're honest, often meaningless. You know, the small conversations. are the ones where you go, where's your uncle? How's he doing. Hey man did you see that. The river. Have you seen the, there's rocks blocking the river. Hey man. Have you guys also noticed your mud. Your by the houses. Hey, man.

That's small. Yeah. And yet is so meaningful. You know, you know who's sick, who's healthy. You know who's growing who's not. You know who's happy. Who said, you know you know. And it like connects you to people. There was literally not a single break in in the village. I don't know about you. Like it was an anomalous. Yeah. It was such a crazy concept that someone would steal something from another person. because you knew who you were stealing it from. Yeah. And I think. I think that's what Kyle Langer is. In many ways, you are an embodiment of a village.

that over time, we are losing. in some, you know, and for good and bad. But like we. and I think you've carried that interview that you carried into your books, you've carried it into online. You're one of the few people I know online who treats social media like a village. You know what I mean? This honestly. Yeah. You like you talk to people and with people and it's like very different. You're not even like doing it for likes, like you engage with people. and you and I think you make people feel like you are real.

and they are real and you're having conversations with them. And you know that. Whereas most of us engage in social media on a very superfluous level, we post a thing we want to see if people have liked it and then we leave it. We walk away. Did you like my picture? Yes. Okay. Good bye. Did you like my tweets? Yes. Bye. But you are going hey, here's the thing I said. Then someone says why then you like. I'll tell you why. Then they go less crazy. Then you're like, what about your life? Then they're like, how you asked me about me. A person with millions of followers doesn't ask people about them.

They just tell people about them. But when they come from the village. Yeah. You know, I think that's that's that's that's what it is, my friend. Thank you for this. This has been, Thank you, Dunga, my village friend. You know, you know, there's a thing that's you talked about the stories. that so often in the forward of my book. or the author's note, there is one subject. I kind of that kind of precludes me somewhat.

is that in South Africa, the book buying public is white. Mostly white. Yeah. Majority white. But they don't buy books by black writers. Oh that's great. Yeah, that's really interesting. So they now it's almost like then how do they get. how do we get to know each other if you don't reading stories about a dam. That's interesting because so you're giving your book weight to it. And now they have to buy it because they have more money. In fact, double the price for the.

oh, there comes his father and my father. Hahaha. I see you are your father's son. So if I say for me, if there's one thing that I wish. like especially for South Africans, is that because. black people buy books by books like every author? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I almost feel that that is one thing that kind of really. needs to start happening. I think in this country, if we really want to get to know each other,

we need to we need to know each other stories exactly like the Palestinians. Yeah. So yeah, we need to meet each other in the village more, I'm sure. Yeah. We're more no more. No, I know, and thank you very much. Thank you so much. This is beautiful. Thank you man I appreciate your uniform. Thank you. What now with Trevor Noah. is produced by Spotify Studios in partnership with Day Zero Productions. The show is executive produced by Trevor Noah, Sanaz Yamin and Jody Avirgan.

Our senior producer is Jess Hackel. Clare Slaughter is our producer. Music mixing and mastering by Hannis Brown. Thank you so much for listening. Join me next Thursday for another episode of What Now?