Meet Derek Fordjour – One of My Favorite People | What Now? with Trevor Noah Podcast

How do you know when something's finished? I think there's a creeping feeling that you get where you like to. I'm not making this better. You know, it's kind of like when you're at a barber's chair. Like the longer you're there. This guy can only remove hair. So you don't have say, yeah, you shouldn't be there too long. It's like a moment that if you're like, it's it's been a while. You want to look for diminishing returns in a way. Yeah. Like there's a point where you're like, if I stay in this,

it's not going to get better. I'm sure you, like, write a joke and you're like, that's too many words. I did too much to get there. You know it's enough. Leave it. There's, like, a instinct, right? Yeah. Mine, I think, is more. Do I still feel this way? Yeah. That's the same thing. Yeah, that's. That's more mine. My guest on today's. podcast is someone I'm lucky enough to call a friend, and a human being who has achieved one of the hardest things in the world,

which is becoming extremely successful. and genre defying in many ways as an artist. I always think about how crazy it must have been back in the days. to be friends with someone like Picasso or Michelangelo. or any of those people, and I am not comparing artists, but for me, Derek Fordjour is the modern equivalent. He's an artist.

He's a painter, a sculptor, and one of my favorite people who's able. to bring history, identity and joy to life. in a way that stops you in your tracks. We've known each other for a while now, and I've always been inspired. by how deeply he sees the world and how beautifully he translates that. onto the canvas. And so in this conversation, we get into how art messes with value in the best way. Why all work is kind of a scam. and what it means to create beauty.

even when no one's buying it. I think you're really going to walk away from this conversation. with your mind spinning, and hopefully your heart full. Just like I always do. This is what now. you know. Rolling.

All right. Derek, what's going on, man? Hello, Trevor. How are you going to go and get a black nose when we're doing a podcast? Bro. You bro, you blow me up immediately about the nose. No, because you don't want self-conscious about. No, but a killing spleen. First of all, I apologize. I know you're self-conscious about it. The reason I have to call it out is because some people will be hearing. your voice for the first time. That's true. Some people. That's true. And then they'll think that that's how you speak. Yeah. I have a very different voice of what I have today. Yeah. Yeah. Right. So it's similar, but it's. I know your nasally today.

Yeah, but you say you're not sick. Well, I can't be sick. I can't. An American. Let me say I worked at the Daily Show. I was in the office for eight years. I hosted for seven years. Yeah. No one ever admitted being sick the entire time. No one. But wouldn't you say that's also like entertainment culture? Like nobody wants to like. Like you. First of all, you're the boss to each other. Yeah. Do they admit it? Oh, that's a good question, actually. I never say I never considered my position of no. You know, because you're such a man of the people.

You just actually really never considered that. Yeah. You don't know. You know what it also is? It's because in South Africa, we don't really have that. What, like, oh, this culture of. Yeah. Like I think in a in America more than most places, maybe in Europe actually, to a certain extent, the hierarchy in an office place is respected in a different way. Oh it's true. So it's true. Managers don't realize that rooms move differently when they step into them. Not at all. Yeah. Yeah, but I would argue in most parts of at least South Africa, I know for sure.

Yeah, there's like a boss and a manager, but a lot of the time that person just. came from where you were. Right, exactly. So there's a certain level of familiarity. Yeah. Yeah. It's true. I mean, even in God, I mean, there's this wonderful. thing you observe right away where. the boss and his subordinate may hold hands, like, say, same sex. Yeah. And it's a way of, like, let me have a chat with you. if it's totally normal to hold it. In fact, by the time we leave, my brother and I hold hands.

while we're walking around. See, you're trying not to smile because you're not trying. Yeah, just. Yeah. I'm smiling. You're just gross. Yeah, right. The whole thing. This is. It's completely normal. No, no. Okay, I'll tell you. I was smiling way because I was thinking. Because I'll start by saying this. I'm not ignorant of the idea of men holding, you know this. Yeah, because in South Africa, it's the same, same thing. So depending on where you're from. People would hold hands. People. I remember in the Middle East, men hold pinky fingers. I don't know what they do in Ghana.

You have to smile. But yeah, not the whole pinky fingers. It's quite normal. You like lock pinkies to friends, men. It's pretty walk. Yeah. And you walk. You walk hand in hand. It's just the pinky. That's. Yeah. You see everyone? Everyone thinks one part of it. It's weird. Yeah. What I found weird in that situation is there's something almost more threatening. Yeah. In your boss calling area and giving you their hand. Hey, Lamia. Hold my hand. I mean, let me talk to you for a second. That is scarier. The idea that somebody is going to berate me or chastise me while holding my hand.

It's true. That could be. It could be threatening. But this is. This is the trauma. I think I have from being a kid. The worst beating you would get is where your parent was holding on to you. Oh, yeah. Because you can't run. Yeah. You can't run. You know about this? I haven't talked about this years. Talked about what? Being beat. you like. Like affectionately. Like it's like a fixture. We're speaking about it. Affection. Oh, yeah. Like it's normal. Yeah. We we joke about the objects with which I was.

I mean, I didn't want to tell. What's the craziest object you got hit with? The craziest object was probably skillets and pots of chicken. Because it's the kitchen thrown or hits by both men. Okay, maybe it was. It was me, though. I have two brothers. They were great. She never. I mean, they didn't require it. This is your victim blaming. Don't blame me. I like can I tell you I am not for it? Right. But it was. It was quite normal. It was. I never got hit with a pot or a pan. Yeah. Because my mom didn't cook much.

So I think that's probably why I was saved from that environment. Yeah. Yeah, but I got I got hit the head with. Oh, everything. Really high heels. High heels were terrible. I'm not laughing either. There's nothing. Yeah, with high heels. Very few belts, I guess, because my mom didn't really wear belts. I've thought about this too. Yeah, I mean, I think. Oh, okay, I'll tell you why. So now that I am at an age where I think my mom accepts that I'm an adult. And I feel like I'm an adult.

And you're the the same played with her. Yeah. You could both reflect. I've now decided to, like, open up the statute of limitations. Right. And say to her. Yeah. Yo, lady, what were you doing? Did you try it? Did you soft try something to see if she was ready? Because you have to. I think every few years I probably said something to her. Okay. See, that's still respect. Yeah. Like maybe in my 20 years between. Maybe in my 20s. I said to her, oh, man, the beatings used to give me and the way she'd react would be like, you want another one?

That's that's exactly. That's my mom, right? We're both of your parents from. Both of my parents are from Ghana. You're first generation. First generation, same tribe. So both of my parents are Asante. So, you know, we say Ashanti, but it got. We say Asante. But. Yeah, 100%. So I remember my dad telling me in the. Oh, I don't know, I must have it in kindergarten. Yeah. It was. I want to tell you something. He sat me down and he goes, if the entire Ashanti kingdom.

perishes tomorrow, but you're alive, then the Ashanti Kingdom lives. And that's the way he explained. where we were from and what it meant to be part of a tribe. That. That the entire kingdom lives in you. And it made you. I've been like Tennessee, having this conversation as like a kindergarten. But that was like the early framing of, like, what's in our blood. You know, it sounds like the opening of a Black Panther movie. Yes.

Yes, it really does. The trilogy scene opens up right, young Derek. Right? Little black kid in Tennessee. That's right. 100% camera comes into, like, the little house. where you live, a house, I'm assuming. That little house in Memphis. It was a little apartment, actually, a little apart. Yeah. Even better, if he loves apartments. Could we start with superheroes? Love apartments? It has to be an apartment. Apartments are better than houses for superheroes, but it has to start with the kid. Big bully, big call. The African booty scratcher.

What you call. That's. Were you not? I was in Africa. Who's going to call me that? That's true. Yeah, this is true. It's it's. it was the awkward who was going to say to me, that would be your African, which is great. I'm like, yeah, we're all, we're all. What do you mean, though? It's true. Well, you got called African booty scratcher. Totally. It's a thing. This was a the full sentence. My son was calling the same thing. No. You're lying. I was shocked. I'm telling you, this is now. Now I was like, what? I was like, are you? I thought he was spoofing me.

It's like, no, it's a thing. Well, it's a funny thing. Okay, wait, wait. Let's let's take it back. So your parents moved from Ghana? Yes. To Tennessee. So I'll give you even more drama for your, like, movie. The movie. Do it. My dad really just wanted to be a doctor. And the entire village helped. Conspired to get him to America to become a doctor. So he tells a story. I have no idea how true any of this is. Of, like, leaving the village with a a bag of money.

that everybody pitched in to give him on his journey away. So he literally was like. saving the entire he was going to be a doctor. Wow. That was the deal. And then my mother left at 16. This is like a village. Village, then? Yeah, well, my dad was from Kumasi, which is like another. It's like a second city. Yeah. After Accra. Have you got it? I've never been to Garner. What, you going to take me, Trevor? We really. You have? Not yet.

Thank you. Yeah, I do. I don't want to. So I talk to my friends about this all the time. Anywhere in Africa. Yeah. I don't want to just go as a tourist. I'd rather go visit. I want to go to visit my friend's house. Yes, yes, yes. Because going as a tourist is too familiar to me. Like if I go as a tourist to Italy. Yeah, it is very much. I'm like, oh, wow, this is Italy. This is like you get a guide when I'm in Ghana. I know the food. I know the music. I know. I even understand the people. Of course.

You know what I mean? Yeah. So I need my people there to take me deeper. Otherwise I'm like, what am I going to do? I'm going to take pictures of little Africans of your hotel. Right. Come on, come on. It's true. Okay, so you want to hang differently? Yeah. And we struggle with this too, because unfortunately, my brothers. and I don't speak the language, which is I mean, language is the it's the it's the it's a pass key. No, it is the thing. It's the thing. So we don't have that. And even though we're English. speaking because of the British, yes, it's still different.

So when I go without my parents, it feels really different. There's like a piece of Ghana that you. You're locked out of a little bit, It's like you approach the groups while everybody is speaking. Three and and they change to English because you're it's. polite to do they want you to hear but you're still it's not the same. It's not the same. South Africans will do the same thing. Yeah, but you can feel that. It's almost like someone took the spice in a meal. and washed it, and then gave it to you because you can't handle the spice.

Look, there is that of all the places I've been, God is the most welcoming. to English speakers, to people returning home, yearning for culture. It's the best place, isn't it? Getting overrun by Americans. Now they'll stop saying that. I ask the questions, right? I'm not saying any. Oh, you know why? You know, I said, isn't it? There's a question mark at the. I won't say that. The kid that was called African booty scratcher. Yeah. Leads all of those kids that call them that to return. So there's no overrun.

We need more to go back. Like so you're saying. No, it's not. I'm saying no. Okay, okay. I'm sorry. I know. I've heard a lot of stories, you know, but I also know what you're saying. Like I'm saying one thing with my eyes and another with my mouth. Right? We should. We should do this right? So, no, it's not all right. Can I tell you my favorite stories have been my Ghanaian friends. complaining about black Americans coming to Ghana,

and they'll complain about them as if they like white people. Oh, totally. Yeah. I mean, on some level, I mean, maybe that's but I look, I choose to stand for the marrying of the marriage of like. the African cultural experience and the African American. and the British American and everywhere else in the diaspora, we exist. I mean, I think you you definitely represent that. Oh, I love it. And so that's what I'm on. You know what I mean? Like, it's not overrun the space enough. Okay. But you know, what's happening is now they're like, encampments and suburbs.

that are for, like, African Americans and is being marketed as such. And so as an African-American, you could buy a home. in the like in an African-American, on a slave. Yeah. In Ghana, I think it's fine. I don't know. I mean, if it works, it works. That's a big if, right? But it works. It it brings people back. We have to take you to a slave castle because. Have you ever been to any. That's a sentence that's never looked at like you deal with it.

That's, Let me watch you. Deal. I don't feel like there's ever been a time in history when that sentence has ended. Well, but you have to experience. Why? Because, first of all, I didn't know that you had done this. So I'm even more convicted about it. I've been to slave classes, but I need to know why. This one in particular. Okay, well, I think there's a moment. Well, at least for me, where you go to the door of no return. Yeah. And it's in all the castles. Oftentimes it will be like the port near the port somewhere there.

That's right. They bring them in, and there's a little area. where they're going to get loaded onto the well. And that's the area of no return. That's right. Yeah. So it's similar in the one I went to was in Zanzibar. Yes. Very similar. So first of all, mean the East African slave trade was different. Just as brutal. But, I think the dynamics are different. East west. But there's always that moment in the castle where you stand. between where you are and where you going.

And for me, when I stand there, I get it. I get the whole diaspora. Like, I understand. my experiences in Brazil and Canada. You know, parts of Europe where they're Africans. Like, I get it. Like, we all came through that door. And I don't know that there's another, physical location that explains. the movement of black peoples in the world quite like that point for me. Now, I feel you, you know.

You know, who did you experience there? I mean, it's it's. it's a complicated collection of feelings because on the one hand, there's relief. I'll be honest, there's relief that it is now, history. Right? That it's there. Yeah. So, like, I know what I mean by that is it's over. Yeah. There's there is something I feel. whenever I go to these places where I'm like, damn, I'm glad that's done, right. I know there's other things to deal with, but I'm like, I'm get that's done, right? That's true. You know, because I could also be here, but not as a tourist.

But you feel that in your body, too. Yeah. There's just like an element of okay, like, oh, I wonder. then there's another side of me that's like, damn, this is, It's heavy. Stark. Yeah. Yeah. For instance, I've never taken a picture there, and not because I judge people who do take pictures there. I just yeah. There is something. It's like a sacred site. Yeah. It's like I go, do I take a picture of me here? And. And how do you what how do I how do I smile? I see the ball. I see the smiles, I see the fist.

I see the somber. Yes, the somber. See the sound. Yeah, but. And I get it. Because. Yeah, those are all the feelings that people having. But let's go back to your death because I want to understand. Yeah. This journey of Derek. Because I. Because I know you. This is. Yeah. Yeah. This is the thing I love about doing, podcast with people I know. is I realize how many things I don't know about you. Exactly. Because I would never ask this in a conversation. So we've taken all the space out essentially, right? Yeah. Yeah. But, the version of ourselves.

Yeah. It always will be. But like your dad. So your dad comes here? Yeah. Was he already married to your mom? No, but they were dating. And, you know, we found some lovely love letters that they wrote to each other. So my mom went to school in England for nursing. Yeah. And, And your dad was going to be a doctor? Yeah. Is it that man you guys are gonna end right? This is like Ghanaian. Right? Proudly. Doctor. This is lawyer, right? Engineer. Correct.

Exactly. This is it, right? A real tragedy. This is real. This is. No, this is a profession. It's a proper. Yeah. Yeah. That's like a, you know. Okay. So, wait, so your parents. So you're born in the US? I am born. Yeah. Memphis, Tennessee. Why? Memphis? Why do I always want to know why. immigrants land where they do and why they call that home? Due to I really want someone to research African immigration. Like, we know the story of how the Irish came. We know how the Italians came.

But I don't know that anyone has really studied. like the movement of Africans to America. And I would just love to hear the story because we have so many cousins. Ghanaian in Nigeria. It is far out places in Ohio. or Texas, Texas. We call it like all these places and we're. just now of age to like share experiences. But I think it happened like maybe the 60s is when it really picked up.

But yeah, so my dad came here, my mother was in England. for nursing school, and there were all these strange things about growing up, like we would eat beetles with our eggs in the morning. And I just thought, this is what people. It's normal until you, like, share with a friend. Like what? You guys eat beans and they're like beans. Why are you eating beans for breakfast? Were you in a black neighborhood or a white neighborhood? We were all so black. I said, African booty scratcher. Hello, Trevor. Come on. No, but come on. I how how am I supposed to know? I don't even know. First of all, I don't even know the term illicit.

white kids are not going to call you after booty scratcher. Generally speaking, that's just to like, they just. It's to what? It's a to a lot of things. It's to are it's a lot of things. It could be a lot of I have a list like why they I don't know. First of all there's too many syllables is too funny is too, you know, I mean okay, okay. You mean on that's what you think. Too much swag. It's just a lot of swag. It's like an insult that will that will also make you laugh. It like hurts and tickles you with equal parts. That's very black, very African.

You know anything like I'm offending you and you love it. So we grew up in a very black community, okay. And we're talking about, you know, the 70s, 80s. So you know, Memphis I mean, Doctor King is 68. Yeah. This is full of segregation. Yeah. So my father actually just learning a lot about like, the rage. he had about like going to graduate school, to to, to to dental school because he was like, I think the second black oral surgeon in the state, but he's very African.

So he doesn't know about black history. They don't know about like, black American history. Yeah. They don't know. Yeah. Yeah. I also wish that there was like a place that if you come from an African country, you could go like learn black history before you engage with society. Why? Well, because what it means to be a black immigrant is we're seeing at this time. I mean, this statement now has lots of weight. You also have the double burden. of understanding racial politics so you don't just enter.

So it's a bit like you enter a game in action. when you are in Africa never going to come to America, but you have on a jersey and you're on a side and you're losing. Yeah. And the refs are really mean. Oh, that's a great point, right? Oh man. If they don't get hit like balls are flags. So but nobody explains you know the history the game. So yeah. So I think that's why it creates a lot of conflict.

Yeah. So I remember the first time I discovered this, I was. I was doing comedy show. This was like way back, way, way, way back long before Daily Show, long before. Oh wow. Okay, so I was doing standup shows at colleges around the U.S. Oh, that's a good education. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And then one day I got booked. I forget where this university was, but I got booked by. the African Student Council, the African Student Union. Yeah right. Student union. Yes yes yes yes yes. So I get booked by them. Right.

And so I get to the campus and I ask mistakenly. Oh, I said I'm looking for the African American Student Union. Wrong group. Yeah. And these people were like, oh, we'll take you there. And they took me there and you were like. And I got there and they went, wait, no, we didn't. And no one knows me. So it's not like someone's going, oh, Trevor Noah. They're just like, what are you here for? I said, I'm here for comedy. This is great. Like when I was like, oh, the African American Student Union booked me. They're like, now we don't have any bookings today. We don't write. It goes around, goes, I call my managers, oh, this is great.

Finally gets back to go. No, you're at the wrong place. It's the African Student Union. Right. So they come and pick me up right? And when we're in the car going across campus, I go, what am I doing to groups? Right. Yeah. And then they tell me, oh, they used to be one union. Right. Which was the I called it the Black Student Union. Right. Yeah. And they said there was so much friction between. the non American black students. Do you see my party. Yeah. Yeah I can see it already.

Yeah I can see I'm, I'm triggering you here. Yeah. You know when I hear that I hear the tragedy on in a few ways. One, that blackness is flattened. to just black because it's quite heterogeneous. There's a lot of mix inside of that. We know this. Yeah. Even as a West African in the South African, there's worlds of difference. Yeah. So it's kind of absurd. to fit it all in the first place to black.

So there's that's one tragic thing. The other is the splintering that happens. and then the potential tensions that arise, which are not always the case. Everybody's kind of happy when they have their own place, but. it never. absolves you from the unfortunate necessity. that you must advocate collectively. Yes. Because you are oppressed collectively. Yes. Right. So so the splintering is comfortable for entertainment, for culture,

so long as you can reunite when it's time to advocate. But that doesn't always happen. Yeah. That doesn't. So that's the tragedy that I feel right. One that it's already. flattened in the first place, but also it splinters a collective action. It also creates a, a type of resentment I found. So, for instance, I would meet African immigrants. who would speak about African Americans, that just. they would just be like, why do you see, why don't they like, they're like Republicans and divide the white people?

Yeah, like worse, if we're honest. Well, we're worse because they don't to know they don't want to work. Yes. I'll tell you something about black Americans. Me up with this. They don't want to work. Yes. They don't go to school. They love to do this axis. They always do. They love to do crime. They love to do crime. Let me tell you something. You love to do crime. They are not African American, not just American. I don't know why they put Africa the way they are dressing their pants. That person are falling and you're like, wow, this is like full on dude.

I have, I have, I have relatives like this. That's why I love the idea of having a school. Yes. Because you. what will happen to a lot of Africans and I'm sure you've seen. this is a lot of those Africans who come in with like the respectability. Perfect. Yes. One day they come up against the yes, yes, American racism. in some way, shape or form. That's right. And they're shaking forever. Forever. I mean, I have also that point. I have I have an uncle, Uncle Manny, he's now passed. and it wasn't until. his later years that he talked about he lived in Minnesota.

Lisa, my cousin Lisa Eraser, and he talked about, like, being used because he realized that. Oh, I was I wasn't I wasn't angry. So he came in the 60s, had success as a corporate guy, but he was a token, and I don't want to reduce his life. I mean, he was a hard man, but he, as in his later years, looking back now with a black eyed understanding of the idea, he said, oh, man, I think they used me, you know, like,

I think I was part of this game and it really is. You talk about those moments, sometimes it happens later. I hope Trevor, that we're in a different world now where social media. is cool. Like you see Nigerian weddings, you have these show like kids. if you're six, seven, eight in today's world you have Afrobeats. There's all this cultural export. It's just like a different time. And I mean, maybe I'm.

I don't want to be Pollyanna, but I just think it's different. I've noticed more kids growing up today. are comfortable with their culture in ways that kids weren't before. Totally like, I know, I know all of my Indian friends growing up. Yes, were. I mean, they were ashamed of, especially if they live up in England. Yeah, yeah. It was just like, don't open your lunchbox. Don't we all have that? Yeah. Yes. And now? Yes. Now on Tik Tok, people are like, where do I find the best? Where do I find the best jollof rice.

You know what I mean. So yeah there's a, there's a it's not even just a pride, but there's like there's almost. I don't know man. There's this character that comes with it now. Yes. Yeah. But it's also not just combat is cool. It is cool. I think that's a that's a very important distinction. Comfort happened some while back now. Cool is definitely the thing. Yeah. Like to be African and to live in America. I think it's cool. When I grew up, those kind of like we would say to our black friends like, yeah, you know.

Yeah, I've got it. Like, okay, you went to Africa. with do this shit, you know, I was like, bro, I'm really African. Like, trust me, I say stuff, you know, it was like that kind of like, shake that. And. And now that we're older, we realize that they also just did it. They saw that splintering. They didn't want to happen. And then there was also this, like envious thing. Yes. Because you're like, dude, we don't know where we came. Like we don't know. Yeah. Our origins. Yeah.

You know, when we got old enough they talked about that. I was like, oh, that was like part envy. Like it was at the admired it on some level. And they were also envious of it. And I also appreciated definitely what, what it means to go back. to the town of my mother's mother. that is like the that's, you know, we are matrilineal. But to know that is to like locate your lineage. That's part of the slow violence that happened in America. Yeah. I, I'll often say.

we talk. about slavery as being one of the most heinous things that happened in history. And it is. Yeah. But I don't think we speak enough about how crucial it was to not just. steal a people from their place, but steal a place from their people. Oh, there you go. Do you know what I mean? What happened on the other side? Because they robbed people. I think of it for myself. Yeah, right. Yeah. There are moments when the world will throw you around. People want to label you, not label. You've caught you, you know, no matter what it is, right?

If I pause and I breathe and I. go, you can take everything away from me, right? You can even take my my citizenship from a country. Yeah, I'm not South African anymore. But you know what? My lineage. Yes, I can I can paint it for you. I can paint it for you. And I can show you each. That's right. Little like. You know what I mean? Which name to this way. And how exactly do you get over saying. Yeah. And I think that thing. Yes. People take for granted how beautiful it is. Yes, yes. To know why you do what you do. Yes.

Because it comes from a long story that was told before you. We're going to continue this conversation right after this short break. So I remember roots. I don't know if so for the show. Yeah. The show. Yeah. Right. Exactly. So we have a few iterations of it. But when we grew up, it was the first iteration from Alex. Haley, the author who wrote, roots.

And it was, I think, for a long time, like the most watched mini. series, black, white American households were obsessed with roots. Yeah. And, it created a narrative for African-Americans. that explain their their roots. in this very detailed, multi-generational story. The old African, you see, ticket as a young man, I think you see it as an old African. And so Kunta Kinte was in the lexicon and the whole thing.

And then years later, we found out that some of the details. in that story were fabricated, that Alex Haley wrote. And so it wasn't all true when it came out. It was like, this is all true. This is factual and I've, you know, that was part of the strength of it. And then years later we found out that some of it wasn't true. And it didn't matter. because people needed a story. I think it also doesn't matter because all stories aren't true.

Exactly. History is itself a fabrication. I love your bit about About Nations and, anthem. Yeah, yeah. You know, it's like it's all and so I mean, I love both sides of that, that I knew it, but it was factual and it was. And then when it was. something that was falsified and it didn't matter, the power did not. The power of the story didn't change. How do you how do you think that informs your arts? Because because.

when I when I think of your art, I, I think of you as a storyteller and not in like a highfalutin way, by the way. Like, let's let's preface all of it by saying this. Yes, Derek Fordjour is easily. considered by many, especially who, like, know what they're talking about. You're considered a luminary of the art world. Oh, wow. No, you really are. And it's it's not easy. to get to the place that you've gotten to think like in, in the art world. It's also, let's be honest, five times. harder to get there as a black man, like random person.

Yeah, but yeah, but I think less so in the NBA. Let's put it that way. Oh Trevor, you say some of the wildest thing. What are you talking about? And it's totally appropriate. I'm saying there are some areas that are still way harder to give you another way. because I as a black person, give me one more. What do you mean? Like it's just another word like so we have the. Yeah. You want to go into music? If you're a black man walking into music, no one's going like, I don't know. Let's hear something. I don't know about that this year. Well, what do you made up?

No, that's true, but the art world. You're right. You're right. This is true. The art world is the most gate kept gatekeeping. that has ever existed in the history of gatekeeping. That's fair. So what I want to like. So the reason I want to preface it with that is because your art holds. a special place in the storytelling. Yes. Of the intersection, I believe, between. African American history. Yes. You know, but I want to know how much the idea you just talked about informs.

how you perceive your art, because what you just said was crucial, right? We all need stories, right? Right. But the facts of the story are less relevant than the story itself. Well, I think like. I love the. question and I think about I think about you that way. Like what? The shock. I just had about what you just said. You have the authority, the moral authority. to make certain comments. I just have authority with you. What do you mean?

If you're with me, if you're offended, I'm. Then I'm screwed. What kind of authority you got me what? I mean, it's like if you're a friend, there's only. I mean, we're friends. True stories. That's true. But I mean, even publicly, right? That I just. I just think sometimes what you do. And I understand why you'll do this. I actually think it's a very African thing. You will dismiss a lot of people do that. You'll dismiss how hard it was for you to get there. There's a certain element of you being like, no, no, no, it's hard for all of us. And I'm not saying it's not hard for everyone, right. But I'm saying what you chose was particular hot I beat.

It's okay. So it's true. So you and I'm and I guess it's hard. And again, let me clarify. This is what's hard about talking to you. And let me clarify this for people. I don't mean painting is hard. Arts is already hard. No. Right. I'm talking about getting into the art world, right? And being considered a verifiable part of it. Yes. You see what I'm saying? Yeah. So now you're forcing me to have a real conversation. I mean, that's why I guess that's why I'm here. Well, that's why we always. I'm like, did when have we not had a real conversation? Yeah. This is what you do.

This is what he does. But because I'm so well. attuned to like switching the conversation. Yeah. Given the context and how it's going to be received. Yeah. Yeah I'm with you. And so there's a lot of posturing and withholding that's necessary. because with art, you want the conversation. to be about the work, and you don't want the, the traps to happen where. it gets into places that you have no investment, you see.

But that's something I feel like is also unique to a black artist. It is. I'll give you an example. Absolutely. Vincent van Gogh. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Very good at that pronunciation. Yeah. I mean, you have to be here. So you've been to the museum. Did you go? Actually, haven't haven't either. I haven't even, I haven't I don't think I have okay. But they never talk about his art without talking about his story. Right. His, his health, his mental health, the way he saw the world, what he was going through, the medicine he was on Picasso. I've never heard anyone talk about Picasso and just be like, hey, Picasso, the painting.

No. They'll tell you about his journeys and his travels to Africa. and the way he saw women and the love, the passion, the love who informed him. and how his heart was broken. You know what I mean? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Right, right. There is no artist. Leonardo da Vinci, Michelangelo, you name it. There are none of them. Yeah, with their story is not part of their art. Oh, this is right. Yeah. And it's never seen as an excuse. It's never seen as, something that that leaves a blemish on their work in any way. However, to your point with black artists, yeah,

I find for the most part in speaking to you and many other black artists. Yeah, the art world wants your story. That's right. But not like the the the the rough and the messy parts. Yeah, not the messy parts of it. Right. I was looking at, this idea called stereotype threat, which I came across 20 years ago. There's a guy named Claude Steele who talks about. not racism. The anticipation of racism.

happening has deleterious effects. Like if if I don't even encounter it. But I think on the other side of this door, it might happen. It affects how I present myself. Damn right. And sharing is racism. I like that, right? So so stereotype threat is an additional anxiety. There's the thing which is actually racism. Yeah, yeah, that you have to contend with. But your anticipation of it, how you steel yourself.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. How you, you know, that is also like very anxious. So that's a lot of what my work is about. is the strategy, the. gamesmanship necessary to, traverse a troubled space right. And the art world, as it you're right, has has been troubled. It's tough for us, but I have to acknowledge all of the artists that came before.

me, and my peers, to make this moment possible. Selling. I've given a war speech, but I think. I think it's really just important to acknowledge. because those are the artists that people just don't know at all. Who would you say are the the black artists who made the art world. see black art differently, or opened the art world to black people? Can you think of a just a few? Okay, so that I'm not saying that the only ones that are for just a few, it's a complicated question, because there is a moment.

that the art world starts to take notice of black artist. But then there have been artists. working way before that that were just never acknowledge at all. So there's a lot of retrospective work that's happening to okay knowledge, art. It's a was. So it's kind of like saying like if we were to use an NBA analogy, like, like we all know, like Michael Jordan was the first guy that showed us. you could have astronomical commercial success.

Yeah, yeah. While you have success on the court. Right. So there's no Kobe, there's no LeBron without Jordan. But there was also doctor J. Right I'm with you. And there was also Wilt Chamberlain. Right. And so there's so many people behind him. I would say probably David. Heavens David Hammonds. Yeah. Okay. And actually on the pier here in New York, if you there's a wonderful monument. that he has across from, the Whitney Museum.

I think it personifies perfectly why so many people might not know the name David. Heavens, there's a full blown. monument that cost tens of millions of dollars to build it. I spoke to Director Whitney about this, so we it's a big thing for them. But you could pass it a million times a day. Ever notice it? It has thin wire frame to outline. what used to be the piers on, on the West side Highway. Yeah. So he just framed a building so you can miss it, and he's okay with that.

And this is part of the genius of David Heavens. His presence is as. fascinating as his absence. It he's done some of the most compelling, conceptual projects, like he sold snow balls on the street, like for for an exchange, like people bought snowballs. and that's, that's that's an artwork. Right. There's. This is David Harris. I mean, that's one of his more popular artworks, but he can hide in plain sight.

He played like, these are snowballs that actually melts. Yeah. Okay. We could buy one. Okay. It opens up this amazing commentary on commerce. What are you buying? What is exchange? Where is value? I feel like there are there are fields that people get into. that don't reveal. how essential they are to society immediately. So when you look at fashion, a lot of people just go,

oh, man, fashion, whatever. Then they very seldom look at how fashion. can include or exclude them from a space and make them seem. like they're supposed to be or not be somewhere. All right. Do you know what I mean? A simple example is like just a suit. Just a suit in and of itself. Yeah, yeah. Immediately became a signifier. Yes. As to whether or not you were deemed respectable enough. to step into a certain establishment. Absolutely right. Yeah. So you look at how, like, MLK used a suit. Yes. And he was like, all right, guys, we're wearing suits.

That's right. We're going to go get beaten up. That's right. We you know, we're broke. Yeah. We easy to wear like hoodies. Yes. What's more comfortable. So we're going to get beat out. You know why we're suit. That's right. The mask. Are we going to wear a suit. Because the suit represents something. That's right. Says something nice. Yes. And I remember speaking to someone in fashion about this, how they were like, oh, a lot of people think of fashion as just being whatever. But even look at sizing for instance, right. When sizes become more accommodating, more people feel like they're part of. right the world now. That's right.

You know, it's small things and yet it's powerful. No, no, no. Because you're talking about the power of images. Yes. Right. Like architecture was another one. Most people, yes, don't care about architecture. Think most people. Right. And most people are affected by architecture in ways. that they would never, ever imagine from like a bench. that tells you whether or not you can or should sit at a park. Yeah, yeah. All the way. through to how your house sits in relation to another house, telling you whether. you should greet your neighbor or not. And some people are like, what are you talking about? I'm like, no, no, no.

Architects have showed me some other world. That's right. Let me let me add to that. Yeah. And then we open this conversation even more broadly to African architecture, different modes of, creation and, domicile and public space and the plaza. It's a big conversation, but it's invisible to most of us. Yeah. What you're talking about, relative to, the suits and respectability, you'll see a lot of suits in my paintings. because of that. It's a it's a signifier.

It's a code, about how to, navigate space, how to anticipate, a certain perception and then to use it for your benefit. Which is why, back to heavens, his invisibility. is as crucial as his visibility. Right. And so when we talk about representation, overrepresentation, underrepresentation, I kind of jokingly say, like, if you ever went to see the doctor.

and all the doctors were six feet tall and there were black guys, we would all whisper a question to someone like, what's? A joke about? My little brother Rick is a dentist, right? And I talk about him all the time because I used to get on my brother's. about about very expensive shoes. Yeah. And I'd be like, bro, I would never pay that much money for shoes. You guys are ridiculous. So I just thought, like, yeah, it's like what you were saying earlier. about, like, the way Africans critique African-Americans. Like, you pay a $400 for shoes, $300 like, you know,

and my brother's like, like, hey, hey, man, if they look at my shoes. Oh, damn it. I was like, oh, he's right. He's like the only black doctor at a practice of four doctors. The other three are white doctors. And they look at his shoes and he feels that. And so there's this tax. where he's got to spend more on shoes with his partners. Arguably. I don't know what they're wearing in real life, but I mean, in theory, yeah.

But their competence, yeah, it's not connected to is not connected to their reputation. Yeah. All of these conversations are embedded in the codes in my work, because I feel like it's additional pressure. I mean, to take us full circle back to your question. about what it means to be black and to enter the space. Yeah. One, it's it's impossible without our four forebears. And I've even had dealers at different times. where we would talk about the absence of black artists, you know, 80s,

you know, 70s from the commercial art space. And they said, hey, man, the blacks were making the good work. The blacks are making the good work now that they got better. You guys are making the good work is why it's working. They just. It just wasn't that good there. And I thought, wow, there are a lot of people that believe this. That's why I cannot talk about entering this space without shedding. light on all of the ones so, so much further behind me.

Yeah. Because they really made it possible. There was a, there's an artist. named Norman Lewis who we're going back now to, to bring his legacy forward. There was an exhibition at the, Pennsylvania Academy of Fine Art. The curators in the middle of the exhibition. had a letter that Norman Lewis wrote to Leo Castelli. Leo Castelli is a legendary dealer in New York, and all of the art world. Yeah, yeah. Norman Lewis. His studio was right around the corner from Leo Castelli Gallery,

like two blocks. And Norman Lewis had been writing letters. to Leo Castelli to ask him to visit the studio, and it never happened. And so the inclusion of that letter gave. what you're talking about the kind of perspective. of what it meant that Norman Lewis was able. to make all of this work. under those circumstances. I'm with you. You're right.

You're with me. Right. And so, I don't know, I feel like I'm I'm in the space. where it's cool and we can make money. And, you know, it's like looking at the NBA. I also have a friend whose dad played in the NBA. and he worked and sold used cars in the offseason. Like, if he was free money, he was free money. Yeah, same game. Worked as hard, but he worked harder. Yeah, right. But doing the same thing.

Now it's time for a segment. we call where in the world brought to you by Uber. Whether it's your best friend's wedding or your niece's first ballet recital, Uber is on their way so you can show up for what matters most. Uber on our way. Christiana, do you want to know where I am now? Sometimes I feel like you get you get frustrated that I'm traveling. No, no, I'm interesting because you get to travel when I don't. So I'm living vicariously through you, right?

Oh, I like this, I like this, this is like a new a new vibe before you almost say it like like I don't have. And now. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No. Now you said you said open. Well, currently I am in your neck of the woods. I'm in London. I came here for a friend's birthday party and, Yeah, we, he took me everywhere. Actually, I'm trying to go everywhere that I can go in London that I haven't been. So I'm trying to stay away from, like, the usual, you know, like Buckingham. Palace and. Oh, yeah, you don't want to do that. Like. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm like the I am.

So I'm all in like Brixton and head against and and and yeah. Yeah. And like Camden and all of these places. Yeah. And let me tell you something I I'm London's vibe is great. Especially when the weather's good. When the weather's good, it's one of the best cities in the world. You see, I don't often go to London when the weather is not good. And what I don't like is how all of you Londoners say that. That sentence. That's crazy. I'm surprised that you've been to London and the weather's been good. because normally it's just rainy and gray, like that's the London.

I mean, I mean, I mean, now and again. I'll bump into like a rainy, gray day, but I don't let me put it this way. I've been to a few places in the world where more people. immediately bring up the weather, like a reason I should escape. So I go everywhere I go everywhere in the world. But in London I'll say to somebody, they'll go, oh, they go like, oh, Trevor, how are you enjoying London? Are you having fun? And I'm like, oh, I'm having a great time there. Like, oh yeah. And the weather's been good. You're really lucky. You're really lucky Trevor. It's not always like this. Oh, you should go before it changed.

I'm like, yo, what is happening right now? What is happening right now? Just enjoy. It. Is being British just like the national pastime is to speak about the weather, the either complaining about it or you're happy about it. Those are the two states of emotion when it comes to the weather. So yeah, but I find it. I find it's more, I find it's more. The Brits are complaining about it or they're complaining. about how it normally is, but it's not now. So you'll go, this is nice. They're like, yeah, but it's not normally like this, you know, a nation of complainers. I don't know, I think it's lovely and I'm enjoying myself.

Well that was today's where in the world brought to you by Uber, whether it's your best friend's wedding or your niece's first ballet recital, Uber is on their way so you can show up for what matters most. Uber on our way. I'll often say to people, and I think I have this because comedy has been my profession. Yeah, I often will say to people.

who work is a scam, I love this, all right? I'm not saying things that people do or scams. I'm saying work would work or work is a scam. Yeah, because the value of that work. is merely assigned by those who have the resources. That's right. It's all arbitrary. Yes, you know, so that's why I was smiling at the snowball thing. That's why I had that, because I'm like, oh man. Yeah, that. And I try and explain this to people and they go like, no, no, no. But but what about. And I'm like, listen, I'm not trying to offend anybody.

Right. But almost all our jobs are fake. Yes they are okay. Absolutely. And we also assign a fake value to them. And that value shifts and moves. You know, one of the simple examples is like. if you think of like the computer game back in the day in, in the US. Yeah. Wasn't a really well-paying job. No, not at all. And women used to work as computers as they called them. And they would like run those machines, cluck cluck cluck cluck. And then that was like a stable job and started growing. And the men came, took it over, and then it skyrocketed. That's right.

And if you look at most professions that are generally considered. a woman's profession, when the men get involved, when the men get involved, the money goes up, right? But when the women are involved, the money goes down. That's right. So nursing. That's right. Teaching all these professions. Yes. But doctor. Oh no no no no no no. Money goes up. Money goes up, money goes up, money goes up. I, I actually want to know though like. in, in the art world, I understand that things cost a lot of money. Yeah, yeah. But I know for myself and for most people, a lot of people will just be like, this world. feels like a scam.

It feels like people are just making it up. Right. So, for instance, I'll go with this. Many people do not question the price of a Louis Vuitton bag. Right. All right. Because of the story they've been told? Yes. Because they I love people believe it. Yes. And they go it's Louis Vuitton. That's right. Someone goes, oh that's a Louis Vuitton. That's right. And then when you break it down into its components. and people do this all the time, that's why you choose amazing. That's right. Someone will go, oh, it costs $12 whatever to make the Louis Vuitton bag. That's right. And they sell it to you for $2,000.

That's right. And the same bag with the same level of artisan skill. The same level of everything. Yeah. A someone else is doing it for $300. That's right. And you're buying it because of the Louis Vuitton of it. All right. In that world, I find people I find people are less likely to question it. Same thing with cause interesting. Yeah. Right. People will buy a Ferrari. But really all Ferrari has done is limit their supply. That's it. Focus on the demand. Told a great story, tell a great story. It is a fantastic it's a great many ways. Yeah. But they could make more of them if they wanted to easily.

Yeah. Yeah. What do you think it is about art that like jazz up with the everyman? You know, it's a great question and I think what you're asking about. is not art. I think you're asking about value. The way the art world assigns value. Right. That's exactly what I mean. Yeah. And even more specific, we're talking about the art market, which is different than but related to art itself.

It's an important. distinction to make because I think out in the world. outside of the art world, much like the purse, we conflate the value or the price. We relate the price to the value. Right. So okay, so so we we see a Louis Vuitton in automatically. We know it's expensive. Yes. Right. In the art world very differently. You will witness the cost of the Louis Vuitton bag. go from $3 to $20.

Yeah. To 3 million. Yeah. Nothing about the bag is changed. We don't tell a different story. We've added deluxe zippers. There's Wi-Fi in the back. Nothing. Yeah. When you bought it at three, it's the exact same bag. And so that's what's baffling to people. that we don't even hide. the fact that it's the same bag at $3, that it was it 2 million. You have so many people here in New York City who will tell you, oh,

I paid $200 for my Warhol or, you know, oh, like an original Andy Warhol. They bought it for 200, 100. And now it's worth, oh my gosh, 20 million or. or will we? Oh, you said oh, you think you would have been able to. You think you think they would have sold it to you? I mean, this you just talked about the suit. Yeah. You talked about access. I'm saying like we cannot I mean, because. Yeah. Because access and value, all this stuff is related. So the question then but Andy Warhol still gets to pay that $3.

Yeah. You're right. And to pay the $3 who has that Intel. That's what the black artist represents. And what's very complex about us entering the space, because. you can't have black artist in the space without complicating the space. for black institutions, for black collectors, for trustees, the entire ecosystem is affected when black artists participate. I'd like to also point to the entertainment industry.

when we had black comedians actors, but you didn't have black ownership, you didn't have agents you didn't have. It took a while to get the infrastructure. So we are now advocating for us to participate more globally in the business. Right. And I think that that's part of why you don't have to own the team. There you go. Yeah. So it's. so it's like the question is not me because you know, we're kind of frontman. You too, you know, nobody sees the entire operation behind you.

See you. Right. But part of being successful is understanding the apparatus. and getting good at that. And we've been in long enough where that's starting to happen. And that's, to me, even more exciting than the mere presence of black artist. How did it feel when you saw the value of your art go up? Like, did it, did it liberate you or did it imprison you? I you know, I have to try to remember that. we're here because, you know, I want to ask you the same thing. I won't do that. You can. Okay. This is how we talk. So there was a time when you were probably paid $20 for getting on stage.

You're being very generous. Well, I literally come across emails sometimes. where I was begging people. to buy my work, like, hello, Trevor, I hope all is well. with comedy in your world. I saw your specials. Great. Listen. Hey, man, I got these new works. I was doing that, like begging people to buy the work. That was so long for me that I don't believe the $3 million number.

Wow. Right. I know it's made up, though. That's not to say that there's no value. No, I know what you mean. Yeah, you know what I mean. No, I I'm with you completely. Someone asked me this one day. and they were like, can you think of an analogy for it? And this is, this is how I thought of it. In life when you are creating forget art, right? Just creating right? I think there are two ways you can achieve success.

Okay. I think of society as being people on a train. I like this, right. Yeah. A train is constantly moving. Yeah. The train is constantly moving. That's society. Yep. And as somebody who's creating you're trying to get the people in the train. to look at the thing you're doing and take it right. And then you are now in commerce with them in some way. Right. Right. They accepting of you, they remunerate you whatever it might be. But the point is you need the people in the train. Yeah, to get there. Wait, where are you? Are you on the platform? No. You're just like, standing on the side of the stage.

and you're just standing on the side of the chair, just like, hey, society never stops moving. That's right. Except when it does, there's moments where society just, like, slows down. and they look out the window. Right. And I always go this one of two ways. Either you can run as fast as the train and try and be next to it. so that this society looks at you and goes, oh, I see you and I'm with it. Or you can stay exactly where you are right away. and just hope that the train will stop one day where you happen to be right?

And so when I, when I think of it, let's I love that we can take it to anything. There's a. time in history when Ferrari is struggling to sell his cars. Yeah, totally. You know what I mean? Yes. Now people were like, what are you talking about? Yeah. You go into the watch world. Yeah. There's a time when Patek Philippe is begging people, right? Begging people. Right, right, right to buy their watches. Totally going around to little jewelry stores in New York now. Good luck getting one. Yes. Right. I think that applies to everything in every way. Yes.

And that's why I often say to people I'm allergic. to the advice that most successful people give. Because most successful people. will give advice that implies that they're they're responsible for their success. There you go. You know what I mean? So they will say, yes, let me tell you what you got to do. That's you got to believe in yourself, right? You gotta work hard. That's right. You see the other person, you gotta work harder than them. That's right. And you gotta put your effort in. Yes. And you believe? Yes. And if you believe, yes, anything is possible. Yes. Welcome to America. Yes.

But the anything that they leave out is failure. Yeah, right. If anything is possible, then failure is possible. That's right. Right. That's right, that's right. And I feel like not enough of them say. luck dude. It's real. The involved in computers around the.com boom. Yes, luck. There are companies that blew up in that period sold. And then within a few years we were to zero literally zero. Right. Yahoo bought companies and sold companies. Yahoo itself got sold and bought. That's right. There's all these stories. No one would say that of the business world.

They wouldn't say the business world is fake. No they can't. You get I'm saying they're invested in a book. They would never say the business world. No, no, no, they can't say that they can't. But they know. When will you go behind the scenes at all these big finance inside? They'll tell you it's a fiction, man. We need everybody to believe the same. They at the same time. Yeah, right. It's a house of cards. Yes. It's a intersubjective reality. I believe it's. Oh, this is good, I like that. I've never heard that term. I remember I learned it from Yuval Noah Harari, who we have on the podcast.

I love that we talk to him. And in his book, Nexus, he's talking. about how humans have connected all of these ideas. Yeah. And how we've made societies out of a fictions. And that's what it is. Yeah. He goes, gravity is objective, right? Right, right, right. Whether you believe in it or not, they're right. It happens. The US dollar. Yes. Fiction is a fiction. Yes. That is real because we agree upon it. That's the only reason why. Yeah. So no you've just explained contemporary art. You've just explained it well. You explain the market.

It's a fiction that we all agree. will legitimize. Yeah. Now I say to artists all the time, realize what's happening when you're able to sell your art. because people can give you compliments and not give you money. Oh, right. I can like I can like you. I can think you're great, but if I don't buy a ticket to your show, like, that's just a different level of investment. I'm with you. And so, you know, I, I, I used to hear years ago, you know, my.

dad would tell me sort of professional, somebody who gets paid to do what they do. Right. You get paid for artist. You can be a professional and have no money coming in for a long time. In fact they could all come after you die. Oh easily. It could come I mean hopefully less so these days. But it's true. So the money cannot validate. the art because of what you just said. Because value is all over the place. The value is shifting. Sometimes they can miss it.

All those black artists for, you know, 150 years. that were overlooked, weren't making better or worse art. The the country. discounted them. It's the train. It's the train. Yeah. So the train wasn't straight, wasn't stopped. That train wasn't stopping. So so for me, for other artists, you have to at once. know that the art is authentic and true and real. because it's what you have transferred into that material.

In my case, I make objects, but that transfer has nothing to do. with anything but me and that material at 4:00 in the morning. It's a spiritual experience when I'm done with it and it enters. the public realm for critique, for connoisseurship, for commerce, that's a different thing. Those two things are related. Yeah, it's separate. And that firewall, at least in the mind of the artist, has to remain intact.

Actually, like this for all artists, to be honest. Right. It really applies. It doesn't matter what we're talking about. You're in fashion. If you are in music, if you are in, you know. Yeah. Physical. What do you call art in your. Because art covers everything. But then what's true is a art is fine. Yeah. Contemporary art, contemporary art. Okay. But in all of these fields, I think it's the same thing. It is the same thing. It's true. I mean, what you said about the art world that people tend to pay attention to. are the the big numbers, right, how much the paintings sell for.

But people don't talk about your salary. like you. Yeah. You want people to talk about. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What you're interested in. And the conversation is ironically that's where value is. So yeah, I think the difference is for us though. And I've always wondered how you feel about this as an artist. The difference is I have. a million relationships of one. You have one relationship of a million. Oh, this is good. Slow down.

So you have a million or million relationship of one meaning one person. So there is no one audience member, right? Who is making me or breaking me, right, right, right. And I appreciate them almost all equally because it's like, you know, that's why. you could you're coming in with your $20 and you're coming in with your 300 grand. You're coming in with your so you're 25 or 40 pounds, right? You're coming in with your yeah. Everyone's coming in with their whatever amount. Right. And this is like a collective. But all of you have come in with a little. Right.

And then we're making the show. Yes. Right. But I have a million ones. And that's the relationship I have. Yes. But you have one relationship with them with a million is very true. Do you get I'm saying 100% agree. The art world in many ways is not democratic. Because what you what you're explaining is democratic. Yes it is. That's one one. One woman. One. Yeah. One vote. Yeah. That's exactly what it is. One that one ticket, one vote. Yeah. And this is also why, you can be a superstar and why so many people know your name.

Because you play to the widest. possible demographic on some level. Yeah. No. You're right. Yeah. Okay. For us, we're known in very small rooms. Yes. With very few people with lots and lots of money. Yeah. The most powerful people I'd love to know. From your perspective as an artist, why do you think art is so essential? Well, I truly believe that art is.

It's in our original coding, because you would be hard pressed to find any society. anywhere in the world through any period of time. that did not create something. outside of themselves, like cave drawings. Hi, I don't go there a cave, but like let's go to South America, let's go to the rainforest, let's go to, the way they twisted leaves together, to make beautiful, thatched at home or, it's really impossible to find humans where they're not creating anything.

And so, and I've thought a lot about this, about why, why people care. One of the things I used to love to do in New York City, and this is even before I was begging people to buy the paintings. You're just kind of in a room, and you're making things and you're just fucking suffering. Maybe somebody bought a painting. I would take the painting to them uncovered, so I could ride on the train with my art, just to see whether anybody cared.

Oh, I like this. And you'd be surprised how many people of different kinds. would say you did that. And I say, yeah, that's good, man. All types of. people, And I used to love the way this is a. I feel like you invented the first, like, people's gallery. They should, you know, they should do this. They should do that. Someone should. I love that there's a woman named Sandra Bloodworth. who just retired from the MTA in New York City. Her job for over 30 years was to pick artists for the subway,

to do public, public works. And New York City probably has one of the best public works program in all of the. I did not know that. Yes. And so it's not always original work. I have my work at, the 145th Street. 2 or 3 line. Yeah. And, it's all my work. The ideas are in there, and I love it. Well, what what kind of work? Well, you know, like, I design roles, like, if you're on the tiles. On the tiles.

If I had my art at a station, I would feel personally connected to the station. Oh, I love it, I love it. I would like, go in one. I'd like, keep the station clean and I want to fight. Let me tell you what. Before you get to the point where you're, you know, looking at museums. as a possibility, you know, you have the public. Like, I took the train every day. Yeah. So, like to have my work in a train station in New York City was like, what? I'd be like, dude, so it's great because let someone try to take a shit. at that station. Yeah, that's what you think.

You don't even understand the fight that we're going to have. That's my art station. Yo, yo, de, you don't even understand. But what I say is it is the Derrick Fordjour underground Museum of the people. That's the way I to it like this. But I was actually, you know, after divorce, which happened years ago, I was, like, struggling again, living out of my studio, sleeping on an air mattress, like, it was just tough times. It it was a block away from where they called me to put my work. at the station years later, and I just thought,

this is not coincidence. That was my station. Yeah. During some of the darkest. months of my life. And that's where my work is. So I think that, look, I think it's spiritual. To answer your question, I think that there's no people without making something. I think about the blacksmiths, the instrument makers, all the technologies that lived in, the people that moved. to different parts of the world, and how those things did express themselves.

Right? Right. The banjo, you know, which is I just have a video on my last show, but I love the story of the banjo that starts in Africa with a gourd. and ends up, you know, as folk music in America. Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah. Oh, yeah. It's actually a comedian who did a lot about that history. Steve Martin, in his later years did a lot of research on the banjo. And he's it starts in Africa. There's no banjo in America without the American slave. That is why.

Because the banjo seems like the epitome of white America. Exactly. And so, I mean, look, Beyoncé is dealing with that, too. I think she had the banjo on her work. There's a black banjo project, that that has been researching this. But you asked about my work and, like, what stories? I love the opportunity to. introduce those. complexities and to magnify them, and to have. people make connections to things that they might not have made otherwise.

It's what you do with your work, too, right? It's like, how can we think about this separate. and apart from the stories we've been told about what they are? Right. And art is a space where we can, we can make a new story. I think I only truly, truly, truly. understood the value of art when I went to Ukraine. Tell me about this. I traveled to Ukraine. This was many years ago. Obviously before the conflict I was, I was going to go watch a Champions.

League final. Yeah. So we go and. what I was most taken by. was how devoid of art the place was. Like any Soviet countries. Yes. And not not all, but there are many parts of what we call former Soviet. Union countries where it's devoid of art. Yes, everything has to be functional only for the purpose of the functions. like East Berlin. It really is. Yeah, yeah, it really is. Yeah. And when I came back from Ukraine,

I remember traveling and realizing, oh, man, you know, the thing about art that's weird is. it's like you don't play video games right now. How do you know that? You're making a presumption? I mean, you don't give me a video game fight. Yeah, I hate that. Also, if you played video games, you never finish your art. That's how I know it's very true. Like I've been to your studio. Yes. You are working. I know video game people trust you. Like, that's that's not what's happening in here. All right? The video games, I'm like, yeah, I was in the studio, right?

Do you know that? Yeah. It doesn't work. That's right. But you play, I play, I play my whole life. There's something that I learned from video games. that that, like applies to art. And it's like it's what they call like passive buffs. Okay. So there's some things you would apply to a character, right, that are obvious and easy to see. Like what? Word. Yeah. Here's a sword. Right? The sword is easy to understand. You have the sword, right? But then you'd have, like, a buff and a buff would be. you are going to be 20% stronger now, right?

Wow. Yeah. Now, you don't necessarily notice the 20% stronger. in every single encounter, but it does make the game easier. And it makes a difference. Right? Right. And I remember coming back from Ukraine, traveling in back. into like the world, going, oh damn, this is what art does. All this is like a passive buff to society. Oh, I love this. Yeah. It's true. No, I mean, it's true. You you stand in a train station, you stand in an airport, you stand at a bus stop, you stand anywhere, any liminal space.

It's there that has no art. Okay, watch how much you don't feel. right. And it's a difficult thing to notice because noticing absence, as you were saying earlier. Yeah, is extremely difficult. It is hard. You know, it's very difficult to me. I'm noticing nothing that nothing is. Yeah. Yes, yes. Sometimes it's even difficult to notice what is there. But when you look at art, when autistic, when you don't even like looking at it. Right. Yeah. It's doing things to you.

Oh, it is so it's impossible to walk through the Sistine Chapel. and not affect it. Yeah. And not have like one not possible, you know, like it doesn't matter what the painting is. No, it doesn't matter. It doesn't. it doesn't matter whether you know anything about you. I like, I don't even I don't know anything about art. Yes, but like when I look at a Rembrandt. Yes. And I didn't even know it's a Rembrandt. That's right. I just go like, where's that field? Yes, exactly. What is. What is that place? You take interest, right. And you know who I realize knows this and has not robbed us of it, but they're very slick about it. Is the advertising industry.

Yes they do. Yes, because now billboards are art. Oh, that's absolutely right. So when you travel somewhere you see Coca Cola. That's right. You see you know like all these already. The optics, it's like everything works. Oh absolutely. Shining on a billboard. You want to you in Times Square. Yes. Yes. And they know the passive power of it. They know. Yes. That in that moment you may not go Coca Cola, but if they keep, if you keep seeing that read somewhere along the line, right, you're going to be thirsty. And you're like, man, I really feel like a Coke. Yeah. And they go, thank you, we got you. And now I think if Coca Cola can make you crave a Coke by putting up a billboard.

Yeah. Then an artist can make you crave hope by putting up a billboard. Do you know what I'm saying? I like that, okay, so I'm going to complicate that. I like it. I think it's a. great opportunity to think about the difference between. advertising and art, and it's really simple in that. advertising, even design, they solve a problem. They answer a question. Right. That they've sometimes created.

Yeah they've created a question but they answer it. That's the goal. Art is interested in the question. Oh okay I like this. So we'll say design. The goal is to solve a problem. Yeah yeah yeah art is to create create the question Yeah. So I think that that's that's the difference. And I think that's also why people are sometimes intimidated by it. But it's like listening to you tell jokes sometimes. There's so many levels in the joke that it can.

it can be really funny if you understand all the resonance. That's true. Yeah. But you don't have to get those deeper levels. Yes. It can also just be funny. On level one. You told me that about art. Really? Yeah. What do I teach you about? Say something. What is the most sweet? You know, art is the most intimidating world I've ever come across. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I still. Yeah, still to this day, I'm not even gonna pretend I just go. That's a nice picture. That's all it takes, though. And you can. I saw how you were literally the first human being.

who said to me like, hey, brother, you like, relax. Yeah, yeah. You don't need to know anything about the medium, right? You don't need to know anything about the strokes. Yes. What it evokes. No, no. The symbolism. Yes. Or how it relates to another. You was just like. Do you like it? Yeah. Would you like. And I'll just be like, I like the picture. You like why? You like the picture, right? I don't know, I like that person's eyes. and you're like, oh, we just talk about the eyes. Yes. You were literally the first person who did that, and it made me more comfortable just liking art. because I like what I'm seeing. Well, I mean, look, that's look, me not to be, you know, flatter each other,

but that's also what you did with human. There was a point in life where I thought, oh, I could be a comedian. But I was like, it's not serious enough, though. Like I wanted people to take me seriously. Like. And, you know, like, as a kid, I thought, well, as a comic. like you kind of a clown, you know, like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I didn't really, but it's actually like it has the space for social critique, for satire. You can get in places that other, you know, public figures can't.

You can push that as far as possible. And, and you're, you're, you're part of some kind of social change. A joke is so trivial or some, some level. Yeah. It's not a serious thing. A painting on its own. I mean, it's just an object. Like it doesn't have any embedded, like, powers. Arguably. But then there is a part where that is true, though there's something true, a joke can be more. It can be profound. You know, an object can stay with you.

And I think that's the stuff we traffic here. I mean, as you were talking about, you know, the kind of magic in art or value, you know, I think about, like, laughter, you know, it's like laughter is democratic. You know, we're coated for laughter. There we are. Doesn't matter where you are in the world. I think about, like, Mr. Bead or something. Like where there's no language. Yeah. You know, but I think we human beings are encoded to appreciate art. I think we are actually, I believe I mean, my whole existence.

is predicated on that belief. No, I actually believe we are we look at it. and we feel whether we like it or not. Yes. It's involuntary. Yeah. So, I think that, you know, part of what I love about being an artist is. the way I can reach people. is at a very human level. It's not about class, race. It's none of those things. In fact, I can be all about my cultural experience.

and bring people into it that live outside of it. And how marvelous is that? Don't go anywhere because we got more. What now? After this? What, what are you working on right now? Because you just. You did a show recently? Yes. How long do you take between. How long does it take you? It takes me about a year to put a show together a little more.

Do you take a break? I don't know, I don't take great, I don't, I try not to take too many breaks. I mean, this is my own, like whatever anxiety. What is that like? Like poverty, trauma? I can't claim that entirely, because I know a lot of a lot of artists. And I think this extends to many people maybe in today's age, but there's a terror that if I step away from the thing for too long, then to go back to the train analogy, it'll move. I'll miss it. Okay, well, I have to say this about the train analogy,

which I loved what you were talking about, that I was thinking about, like, performers that keep trying to stay relevant. Yeah. Chase the train chases a train, you know, chasing the train and. Yeah. Which is a fool's errand. It can work. At some point you're going to fall out. You can't go as fast as a train. You. Well, here's the thing. You might not fall out, but I think there's a compromise in everything you're doing in life, right? Right. So keeping up with the train means that in many ways,

the train is dictating what you should create and not the other way around. This is the difference between, let's say, an illustrator and an artist. An illustrator is in design, doing the work that they're told to do to tell the story for the deadline. Did it, it did it. I can take five years on a painting if I want to. I can take 20 years if I want to. I can take one minute if I want to, because. the train and the approval and that that's not what I'm working for.

It's something very personal and very internal. And I set the time. In fact, there is no time at my studio. Here's where the magic happens with art. I had a relationship with everything that goes out of my studio. I had an affair with this thing, a love affair. Hated it, loved it, brought it back. The whole thing. Every time. The whole thing. There's not one thing that I make that I don't obsess over. Yeah. And so my investment is what makes your investment possible.

And I think there's a point in terms of finishing a work. where you get a feeling that's just like, I think we've had our time, you know, you could you could go in the world now. But art really concludes when it enters the public sphere. Like I start it, I make it, I have an experience when it goes out. For me, that's when it's the cycles sort of complete, you know, it's like you could you could write jokes on a pad.

Yeah, yeah. Until you say them, you get the audience, you have to say it. Yeah, it has to land. But like philosophically, like, what is the joke live. Does it live on the page or does it live in the delivery? That's always been a tough one to answer, but I think I think the way I see it as I go, for me at least, the joke exists when I've thought of it, that's when it exists. Oh, this is like a this is this is like a very you know what I mean.

Parallel a political conversations. Yeah. But that's literally for me I go the intersection of a joke once. It once I go, That's funny. That's already a joke. I'm the audience of one. And I've gone, that is funny. The difficulty and where I think the professionalism comes in, yeah, is bridging. the gap between your brain and mind when we're in a room together. Yes. Can I get your synapses to fire in the exact same way that mine did for you? Just see why this is funny. And that is where I think great comedians show themselves off. Yes, they are able to create the same idea.

of the world, right that you already have in your mind. And that is like, that's a, that's a, that's that's mastery. Yeah. But you've just explained what artists do. It's the same thing that. This thing is doing something for me. Yeah, at a personal level. And that experience is authentic and satisfying. So much so that I've got to invest all this time and energy.

I love that. Okay. Right. But that's a one on one experience. And then at some point it has to live in the public space. And when I told you so much harder though, because you put it out and it's done, if I put it out and it doesn't go well, I'm like, oh, let me take it back in the studio and change a few things. Yeah. You put the painting on the wall. Yeah. Someone goes, boo! It's done. Well, what's beautiful about us is we don't hear the boos. Yeah, museums are quite quiet.

We're like soft show everyone quiet. Soft boos. Do not boo the artist. Okay, so the conversation is a little more internal that I. But but I but I think I would be more terrified by that. How do you know that? So I'd like to make that on stage in Turkey. But how do you, how do you 20,000 people, how do you know that the people don't do like, you know, they keep calling you back for the Grammys, which cancel the Turkish call? I'd be terrified to cancel the turkey show. Did you cancel it? Yeah, we had to. I saw that there was a there was a whole. Yeah. I'm sorry. I didn't mean to bring that up. No, no, I'm. You know, I'm not like, what happened?

This happened sometimes. We had to cancel shows in Hong Kong. In around the protests. You remember? Yeah. Yes. We had to cancel show. Yeah. We canceled. Chose to. Yeah, yeah, we cancel shows in India when there were the farmers protesting. Yeah. And then we had to cancel in Turkey. Now do you. But let me ask you this. How do you know what's funny in other places? I don't, that's what. That's what I love. But why would you get off stage? You don't know that. No, but you see what what I love is finding the thing so. funny is universal. Okay, okay. This is this is the first and fifth theory.

Yes. No, no it is. We can fight about it all day. Funny is universal. And what I mean by that is everyone in the world experience is funny. Yes. Rats laugh. Did you know this? I did not know that. And I would have had to come here to find that. Yeah. So rats laugh and rats smile. What is this sound like? I don't know, okay, but I don't find out. I just read the papers on this. Right, a rat laugh okay, so rats laugh. Okay. We don't know why they're laughing. I don't I don't right for sure, but they laughing.

Humans. find something funny everywhere in the world. Yeah. What I love is trying to figure out. where their funny is. and how my funny can intertwine with it. So I used to. And I still do in some ways. I used to envy American comedians. Yeah, because American comedians could go anywhere in the world. and tell a joke the way they told it in America, because people know America, because the world knows America. Right? So they would go like, hey, man.

So ha, man. So I, I voted for George Bush and, right. Well, let me tell you something. Let me. And the audience isn't like George Bush. Who is this George Bush, right? That's. What are you talking about? That's right. Audience like, keep going. Tell the joke. Right. You know. Yeah. But if as a South African comedian, I would travel somewhere else in the world. and then I'd be like, man, let me tell you, Julius Malema, half the people like, what did you just say? Yeah. We don't know. Who is that? What is that? So while it was a curse in some ways it was a blessing. in many other ways because it meant when I traveled,

I would have to spend more time trying to understand what's funny there. Right. What are they thinking? How do you do that? Why are they thinking that? How does the language match up with what's funny is or isn't? Yeah, you know what I mean. And so you absorb the culture. I try my best. Yeah. I just going around for a while. Yeah, yeah. I listen and look at what people are laughing at. Yeah. Like my, my least favorite experience doing comedy is traveling to a place. and leaving it immediately. I hate that I don't want to fly and fly out. Yeah, you like to be.

It takes more of my life, but I like to go there, eat what the people eat. Yes, see what the people see. Yes. And by the way, have it as my experience, so that by the time I get on stage, whether it's in Amsterdam. Yeah. Or whether it's in Cairo or whether it's in wherever, I just want to go on and be like, man, this is how I feel. about these alleyways, right? And the magic happens when they go, oh my God, you you felt that?

We feel that too. You felt that right? And it becomes a magical experience because they go. we even forgot that we feel that. Right. You know, and I remember I, I, I really never appreciated it. until it was two people who helped Kevin Hart and, and Dave Chappelle. Kevin said to me one day, he was a classic. Kevin. Kevin was he was we were at a tennis match and Kevin was like, he's a dick, man. Let me say, let me say something. Let me say something to me. I'm sick of your bullshit.

I'm sick of bullshit. And I was like, what do you mean, Kev? He's like, man, he's like every every country I go to, they go. They go, you know, came here, Trevor came here, and they're like, man, you were funny. They're like, oh man. Trevor. Oh man. He told us jokes about us. And Kev was like, man, what's this, some bullshit? He lives in America. I live in America. As you and Kevin was saying, he's like, I hope it's true. I said, I hope you appreciate what you have. Yeah. Don't try and be more this. Don't try and be. You know what I mean? Right? Right. And Dave said the same thing to me as well. We did a comedy festival that Dave was headlining, and then I was in the run up days to Dave show. Yeah. And I think it was like maybe the first comedy festival in the UAE.

And we both performed our shows. And I mean, Dave Chappelle is a master of the craft. Yeah. You know. Yeah. And like afterwards we're hanging out and Dave says to me, he goes, he goes, man. He says, I'm funny. Don't get me wrong. He says, but tonight I watched you become Dubai's favorite comedian. He said you weren't. He said I was Dave Chappelle. That's big. But you were there. Comedian as if you're from here.

Yeah. And I think that's what I don't think. It's partially where I'm from as a person. My life growing up, all that, my, you know, everything. Yeah. I've always loved this. I feel like there's something special when you can find a way. to use your culinary skills to cook somebody's food for them. That's right. Oh, that's that's a great analogy. You know, I used to not understand how serious you were about that. Used to say that after you finished The Daily Show. and you were like, I just love to travel and I'd love to it. I was like, oh, he likes to go like he loves to tour.

But you don't just tour. You're like learning. Yeah, I don't like learning the culture and trying. to like, understand and apply. I'll tell you why I think I think, you know, not not to make it too existential, but I think it's particularly now because it's in short supply. One of my favorite things I get from traveling the world and meeting people. and doing what they're doing is it reminds me there's no one way to be right. There you go. You know what I'm saying? Yes. So there is no one way for a joke to be funny?

Yes. There is no one way for a food to be delicious. Yes, you know, early on and just hear what the crew are talking about. Like fermented shark meat in Iceland. Yes. And and if you're not able to handle you like this is trash. Disgusting, right? Yeah. But they're like, no it's not. Love it. Yeah. And some whales, people love caviar. And another part of the people like what is this. Yeah. So I think that reminds me in everything politics, in the way I relate with other human beings. The way you raise a child. Yeah. The way you make the world. I go. Oh, don't think that is there is the way.

Yeah. And you know how you know that's not the way. all those cultures and people exist. Look, they're doing fine. Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah. So if there was one way, if there was one way for the world. to be right, every other culture would be that way. It's so true. But I find a lot of the time bigger nations and bigger cultures. Yeah, well, assume so. They like the British land in Africa and they go, these savages, right? They don't know how to do anything. Right. Yeah, but you found them here doing it. That's right, that's right. If you didn't find them, yes, I would agree with you. Yes.

But because you found them, it means they do know how to do something. Yes. Right. Yeah. Same thing when like the Spanish get to South America in Central America. Oh, God. They're like, oh, these people don't know. And it's like, no, no, no no no they do. No. Yeah. That's right. Because they here, you know, as a kid, I would my mother would sometimes. close, close the door and be like, don't I'm eating my food. And when she says my food, she means she's eating out of your food. Yeah. She eats with her hands. And, she would say, I mean, we all eat with our hands.

We for. For what? Otherwise she would say, these people won't understand that. Why eat with my hands? They think I need a fork. And for her, she understood the fork as a colonial object. Oh, that was damn unnecessary. I mean, it is unnecessary. It's unnecessary. It's completely. She would say food actually tastes better if your hands are tactile, you're experiencing the texture of the food and you're adjusting the food. Did she know that based on research? Because that is true. You know what I mean? She lived it. I mean, she grew up.

I'm saying she was just saying this intuitively. Well, she said we should do more magic. More? Yes, exactly. She's doing the math. One of the you know, they do that. She's saying they'll say something that like a university. Oh yes. In a paper. Oh, totally. Researchers have found eating food with your hands increases, and your mom is like, she's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, this is exactly right. But, you know, to go back to what you were saying. about the cultures, man, you remind me of going to a few years ago. I went to actually Israel. And, from there I went to South Africa. And I remember going to Hector Pieterson Square,

maybe in the story of them teaching Africans it. And after that I went to Australia. And when I came off the plane, they apprehended me for a while. And here I am thinking like, oh, I'm taking a break. You know, I've worked hard enough, like, let me treat myself. And here this Australian guy is asking me what I'm going to be doing, how long am I here? And then I'm starting to imagine myself as like, you know, some I do.

I have a dubious motive for being like the questioning what was so long? I'm like, bro, this has been 20 minutes. Like I'm 24 hours away from home. And so that trip showed me and it was actually a relief. that injustices against. mankind are as old as mankind itself. It blew my mind some kind of way to realize that, oh no, this is like, this is it. This is a human experience, right?

Yeah. Also, it's it's like tough to be black everywhere on some level. Like it's troubled. Traveling taught me that. making art about. my lived experience can be resonant. because everyone has some version. of what those challenges are. You know, when you think about the universality of a laugh. or a painting from.

any far off part of the world? Yeah, I want to see it. I want to experience it, I can engage it. I can look at paintings that were made a thousand years ago and have an experience. I don't know, the humor works that way. It doesn't always age well. Like, is there a timeless joke? I think so, really? Yeah. That's still funny. Yeah, yeah, completely like 100 years later, I think so. Oh, this is. Yeah, I think so. I think some, I think some jokes exist in the human experience. And so they will always be funny.

That's true. You know, I'm sure there's a joke that Ali Wong. has told about having a child that can live forever. For as long as women will have a child. I think that joke will be funny, you know? Yeah. There's some jokes, though, that are about a thing. that may be as short lived as the thing is, a thing is gone. But there are some jokes that I do think they will. just travel, as long as the people understand the context. That joke will continuously be. I mean, as Africans we know this, right?

Proverbs? Yes, like they still tickle people they've been around. I just saw Denzel Washington, Jake Gyllenhaal performing Shakespeare. Yeah, word for word. And people laughed, you know, so things can be timeless. Art. Art certainly is. But humor can be. Yeah, but could be. And it also just depends. I think of it like fashion as well. It might just come around. It might come in waves, it might go in waves. A simple example is look at content that goes viral in the world.

at different times. There are TV shows that were hot in America. Yeah. And then 20 years later, become hot somewhere else. Really? But Americans are like, oh, we don't oh, we don't think that's funny anymore. It's true. But that is like, we love we love it. We love it the way you said the black man cannot come inside. What a great joke. You know, I know I saw these Africans, that plague. Is it Kenyans? Are they play country music? The. If you see this. No, but they love it. They have these parties. It is like all these Africans wearing, like, top to bottom, like cowboy gear.

Yeah. And they. But it's a marriage of the cultures. I love this stuff when culture can. Oh no. That's the my favorite thing. This is what we live for right? I mean, I think as artists I mean that's what we really are. trying to mine is like the human experience. I mean, it it could get dark because you got to go inside. And, when I first started painting, I would, I would make paintings. and people would say, and I would have like, you know, an athletic guy, a bright patterned background. And people say, okay, Wiley.

And I'd be like, no, no, no, no, no. But I couldn't that he had already occupied that space. Oh. And so okay, I was like optically, the things I'm putting together. are adding up to what I don't want like. And so the only way for, for me was to get into like, well, what's the feeling about this image that I at? It's like, oh, vulnerability is what I'm interested in. Because what I experience, yeah, when I experience race, is stealing it down to this whole feeling as opposed to the what it looks like.

Yeah. Yeah. Right. And I'm not saying that that's what he's not like, but I'm just saying like that was for me. My salvation is to get inside the experience. And because everyone knows what it feels like to be vulnerable. Yeah. Everyone doesn't know what it feels like to live in my body. And so to me, I don't know if my practice, I try to, I try to do that inside outside thing as much as possible. I think you succeed well. And even if people don't feel it right, the pictures are pretty, man.

Hey man, that's an insult in my world. No man, the pictures are. Pictures are pretty, the pictures are pretty. And I think you should allow people to accept that. Like, you know why? I'll tell you what, because. whether it's the Mona Lisa. Yeah, whether it's, you know, David and God or whatever it is. Yeah, yeah, the pictures are pretty. The I, you know, I know people will like, fight about it. or whatever, but ultimately, you know, the pictures are pretty. They are beautiful now. They are beautiful.

They come with a story and they come with meaning. And there might be layers. And then, like an art historian will tell you. why it's significant that that road leads nowhere or why those hills make that. Yeah, yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah. But we should never forget. It's true that it does look pretty I say that you have beautiful arts. Thank you. That also comes with a lot of meaning. But I'm just saying that you saw that in a for me. No I'm not, I'm just saying as somebody who doesn't always understand meanings of. I don't I'm not learned enough. Yeah. I just look at and go like Dennis dope. Yeah.

And I think, I think you shouldn't take that for granted. It's nice to have something with someone who just goes like, yeah, that's dope, though I do. I mean, I'm joking. It's absolutely true. I mean, beauty is definitely a strategy for me because. But back to your analogy about the trade. We're trying to get your attention. I operate in the glands economy. Yes. Right. You don't need to stand. in front of a painting for an hour to have an experience. In fact, yo, let me tell you something. One of the biggest reasons I don't like going to museums and art galleries. Why?

Especially if someone from the Museum of Art Gallery knows I'm there. Yeah, because if they come, it's because they'll. They'll come take me on tours and stuff that with you. And then what happens is, yeah, I don't know how long I need to stand. in front of an artist to make it seem like a fully appreciated it. Do you know how much pressure? They just stand there and then someone will come stand next to right. and they'll go, stunning isn't it? And I go, oh yeah, gorgeous, gorgeous. Yeah. And then they stand in front and I stand and then I go.

If I walk away now it looks like I'm not engaged. Right. And then I'll like zoom I like come forward and I'll be like, wow. Yeah. Fascinate. Oh man. Dude, this is a lot of performance. That's what. It's too much stress. All right, here's what I'm going. That's why I like looking at art with you. Because I can literally just say to you straight up, I can go. I like those pants. That's right. It's true. And I think it's important to be able to do that. Okay. That's very important. I've got to absolve you of that pressure. You may never do that again. You may also say, I don't get it.

I'm not into it. That's a good thing, too. That's a reaction and an art that's totally possible. There's some art that just bothers me, but it bothers me, okay. And that's a good thing. So this I think the complication with the word pretty is that it flattens. For me. Beauty is to be more expensive than pretty. Oh I'll take all right. So pretty is just purely esthetics. It's just pretty.

But beauty this it can be beautiful inside and out. Well, I think a lot of your paintings are beautiful on the outside. If people don't know what's on the inside, that's what I'm saying. I'll take that. I'm just. No, but I'm serious, man. And like, for real, I think. Yeah, man. What I've always loved about your work is I cannot separate your work from you. Yeah. Which in my world is a compliment. Yes. That's the. That's a haiku. And I love that. I worked hard to get there. Yeah, because because I, I, I don't just enjoy the stories you tell.

I enjoy them immensely, but I, I enjoy. how you tell you in the arts. Yes. You know what I mean? Yes. I love that people get to know a little bit of you people, and you get to tell people a little bit of us. Yes. You know, I, I love that like, Africans have stories in your art. I love that black people have stories in your art. I love that there are some people in America and around the world. Yeah, who have only had a black person in their house. Yes. In your art?

Yes. They've never had a physical. or black person, but there are black people on their walls. And you know what? Their kids grow up looking at those black faces and. and I mean, there's like an A, right I and we have this conversation. and I'm excited I talk I'm really appreciative that way. I just go like, damn you does that well. But it's true. Like think about that. So I've been asked also, well how do you feel about that? If there are those people that don't have direct engagement. with black people in their lives, but want to acquire images of black people,

and I say there's something beautiful that you find about the experience. And as long as I've put enough truth in the work where the work is. not merely to perform esthetically, they're part of the conversation. And I think it's a good thing. Ortiz. Amen. Let me tell you something. The first artist who painted white. Jesus, yes. Changed the world. immensely. Changed the world. Our world. So that's what I mean. Think about it. Right. Think about it. Think about history as we know it.

Okay, but would it be the same if that painting kept Jesus. as dark skinned as Jesus was just think about that for a moment, right? Because it would be a whole lot harder for people to travel. to other places and do the things that they did to those people. When those people look like Jesus, not you get them. So, so, so that's why I'm saying, like, that's a big thing. Yeah, I like it. But I also say to complicate that, there are pictures of black Jesus who. that have been created long, long, long time ago. That's that market conversation about that one guy that painted long hair.

Arkansas. Jesus. Yeah. Like why that became as. popular is because of a machine. It's not because of the painting. So when we go to see Ethiopia and we see Orthodox. Christ, he looks very different than Arkansas. Christ. Right, that we know in America or the Western Jesus. But that one didn't travel because it didn't function as propaganda. So I don't want to say that that artist made this move.

The machine moves that artists work. Right. So that's that's why that firewall is so important. Before we wrap this up, I, I just realize is something I've never asked you. And I've always wanted to always remember this. When we're not together, this is going to be good. Have you ever heard the conspiracy theory. that the CIA invented American contemporary art. or abstract art? Or if forgive me, if I'm using the wrong term? No, no. Have you heard the conspiracy? I don't know it. Well, I've heard some things about them being involved in using it with.

Yeah. So apparently it's just because you. When you said machine. Yes. Post-World War two, the world is now forming itself. It's becoming this new space and America is now a superpower, okay. In a way that it wasn't before World War two. Right? So America was big, but it wasn't like the early for the world, right? Early 40s. Now America has the atom bomb. Yeah. The world is looking at America different. America is this thing. And America, this is all the story, by the way. America realizes that while it is seen as the military powerhouse.

of the world, it is not considered the cultural powerhouse of the world. Right? Yeah. So America starts going, okay, we got to get culture out. There we go. And it's doing it in multiple ways. Music. And, you know, film is burgeoning at that time and it's growing. But the the upper minded echelons say, yes, but America will never have art, right? Right. Artists of Europe. Yes. Of the sophisticated. All the art of America and America is a young baby. Yeah. And the story goes that the CIA is then tasked.

with creating, yes, an art market. And so they, like, start telling people, just make it and will buy it. And they go in, they buy it, they inflate the price, they get galleries buying it, they get a market going. It becomes a whole big thing. The story becomes the art, the art blowing. It's burgeoning as well. And then the thing is crazy. Have you heard anything about this? I tell you why. I think that's complete BS because it's great. It's great fun. It's a fantasy, I like it. I mean, for a dinner party, it's wonderful. I'd stand around and listen to it.

Remember what we said. before about the belief that. human beings aren't coded to create? Yeah. So creating art at all. levels and always has been ubiquitous with human beings. The art market really didn't. get created until the 70s. And there was a guy named scull who owned taxicabs. He was a wealthy guy who decided.

to go to Sotheby's, which at the time. was only really selling. antiques and, you know, cars and other things. So he bought art from all these artists in New York, probably many from Castelli. And he decided, I'm just going to resell this stuff. And he did it at these high prices. And Robert Rauschenberg was, was there, at the sale and like, shove them in like they had this match. and there's a photograph of the moment when Rauschenberg.

and so Rauschenberg says, hey, man, you bought that for me from this. And like, you took advantage of me. And skull says, I did you a favor. And so inside. our world of contemporary art, that's the origins that we know. That's the moment. Yes, that's the moment when new York City. started to become the center of the art world. So that's I mean, in terms of art market. Yes. Yeah.

So that's a bit more plausible than this. because America's I mean, you know, the government is not they don't even support artists. well in this country at all. So they that just gives them too much credit. to say, like, I want to believe that so much. Like if you told me that happened in Canada, I, I might. I might believe that more because Canada supports their artists. They understand culture. If you told me this happened in Korea, look at what they're doing with K-pop.

The government is like helping underwrite that thing. That's cultural export. But America. Well, that's a stretch. Great story though. Oh, man, I like the story. Yeah, as we said in the beginning, doesn't matter whether it's true or not. Doesn't matter. We just need a story. Yeah, that this is funny. Yeah. Thank you very much for coming. Is there anywhere where people can see your art? Right? Yes. Where should they go? Other than which. Wait. Which station? Let's start with that. Okay. That's the answer.

There's a yes. Yes, the Derek Forger underground Museum of the people. Yeah, is at, 145th Street. on the two and or three stop Recording Factory. So that's cool. So that's. Yeah. So that's there. I have a show I'm working on in September. Yeah, in Los Angeles, which is going to be great at David Corden's gallery, thinking only about music. And people can just go to these things. They can just come. Do these come to the show just. Okay. It cost no money. It's wonderful. So I wish more people went to galleries and museums.

So I want to encourage people to just go. This show is all about the black voice. And, I think this is a time where we need to raise our voices. I think the black voice is emblematic. of so many things, around democracy that are really is really powerful. So hopefully get Shelly. Although. Yeah, I'll pop by. All right. But I travel, man, you know. Yeah. I, you travel a lot by road and travel. Yeah. Thanks for having me traveling for you. Thank you. All right.

What now with Trevor Noah. is produced by Spotify Studios in partnership with Day Zero Productions. The show is executive produced by Trevor Noah, Thomas Yamin and Jody AV. Again, our senior producer is just Hackel. Claire Slaughter is our producer. Music mixing and mastering by Hannah Brown. Thank you so much for listening. Join me next Thursday for another episode of What Now? For.