Malcolm Gladwell: Do Fairytales Make Adulthood Harder?

[music]. This should be a business for the three. of us. I would I think you all of us. should contribute to the to the. reimagining of these flawed classics. What? The Disney ones? >> Yeah, but but here Okay, but have you. watched the newer ones? >> Well, I've watched. >> No, because they have been reimagined. >> We did. >> I didn't want to spoil it for you cuz I. did one the other night. >> Yeah, but it gets really violent. >> I'm like. >> that's what it's like. That's what it'd. be like to be young, female, and black.

[laughter]. >> when your friend is a chicken and one is. a pig [laughter]. and you're stuck with an older guy. with a catamaran [laughter] and your. gran is a ghost and your grandfather ran. away from your dad and he's the spirit. of the seas. >> The chicken. >> Eugene watches a lot of Moana. >> Do you as you can tell? >> Moana. Yes. >> How old? >> Uh my daughter's uh turning 17 this. year. >> Oh, seven. Are you away? You're years. away from this. >> What? >> From Moana. >> We watched IT THE OTHER DAY. WHAT? CAN.

YOU NOT TELL? [laughter] WHAT DO YOU. MEAN? Can you You're assuming that his. daughter is the one who wants to watch. it. [laughter] See? Are you. >> the one who has. >> She has to put it on for him. >> Make way. Make way. [laughter]. >> Yeah. She's the one who's putting it on. for him. [music]. >> This is What [music] Now with Trevor. Noah.

>> [music]. >> In fact, here's another reason, Malcolm. Gladwell, you should be pro pickle ball. >> Mhm. [laughter]. >> I know your view. I know your views on. golf. >> Yeah. Yeah. I know how much you hate the. fact that like golf takes up inordinate. amounts of spaces and it's like it's. unfairly aortioned to the pickle ball. turns one tennis court into four pickle. ball courts. >> Wait, is that true? >> That is completely true. >> Four. Four. >> It quadruples the output. >> It quadrup to lobby for one to be turned.

into and I did. I did. And. >> most pickle ball games most are. generally played by four people. Most. tennis like gettogethers are two people. So technically. >> it's really eight 8x the productivity of. the space. >> Uhhuh. >> I wish you could come see a match. >> All right. All right. >> No, that's that's why I think you would. love it. >> Yeah. >> It is it is the sport of the people. [laughter]. >> All right. All right. All right. >> There's a point at WHICH [laughter].

starts banging the the egalitarian. democracy drum. on behalf of [laughter]. >> But it is though. I think that's what it. is. How you been? What what what have. you been up to? >> I have been um well I I as I said to you. before I now have two children. >> Yes. Congratulations. >> Thank you. I have two daughters. Yes. >> Started late and you've just kept going. >> I started late. I kept going. I might. have to I think I'm stopping at two. They're enormously entertaining. I am I. spend an enormous amount of time.

consuming children's um television and. um music. What's your favorite show? Bluey Coco Melon Peppa Pig. >> Well, the good thing there's a lot of. Peppa Pig going on in my life right now. >> Um although I'm trying to phase it out. We we're on to the Disney movies. >> Hey, >> we've and I've discovered I'm. discovering all these things that other. people discovered many years ago. So, I'm going to And this is the thing about. parenting is it parenting is the um is. the is it rides on the illusion that you.

are discovering for the first time what. the rest of the world [laughter] has. known for like you know millennia. get. it out. >> So, I have discovered that like the. early Disney movies are 50 times better. than the re most recent ones. >> Yes. >> Like I never saw these as a kid, so I'm. seeing for the first time. So, I've. watched a lot of, for example, Snow. White. And. first of all, Snow White is. astonishingly good. But the best part. about it, and this is actually because. I've been part of a larger thing I'm.

become very interested in, >> the best part about Snow White, >> is all of the and also even more so. probably with um Cinderella, >> okay, >> is their willingness to go on these. tangents. Like in Cinderella there's. like 20 minutes on the mouse on the. mouse playing with the cat Lucifer and. they leave the whole story. set it over here and it's just the cat. and the mouse and the the. self-confidence of the filmmaker.

They're like the kids will. >> are happy to put Cinderella to the side. and just go with the mouse and the cat. for 20 minutes and they'll come back to. us. We have such confidence in our story. and our storytelling ability and I feel. like today when you watch the newer ones. there's never any of these digressions. >> No. >> And one is they don't understand how. kids minds work or even pardon me how. human beings mind works. Well, you know. this as a comic. >> in comedy, right? It's the digressions. that often get you the biggest laugh. Yes. When you veer off the path, boom.

Right. >> But I think conversations are the same. >> The same. I think I think in everything. the surprise is what actually gets you. going versus where you thought you were. going to you were going to get to. But. it. >> So why aren't they doing that with the. kids? Why why did they forget the. digression? >> I think it's a I think it's a market. economics thing. I think they've I I. have this fight often times with people. who work in new television, right? Especially in streaming. I think they. read data wrong. >> That's my opinion is that they they look. at the data and they go, "Oh, if if it's.

not engaging in the first two minutes, then people are not going to watch." And. you've got to catch their attention and. people like short content and people. like this and people like that and. people but they've made all these. assumptions based on data. >> but data as you know better than anyone. You can read data however you like and. it can tell you the story you wanted to. tell you. >> So I think a lot of the things that are. being made today are being made with the. idea that people don't have an attention. span. But I don't think that that's. true. People still have attention spans. >> The difference is people now have more. choice than they had back in the day. So.

they don't tolerate [ __ ] in the same way. that they used to that we used to. >> Do you know what I mean? So I think. >> maybe it was like a little bit of. arrogance or like just confidence on the. side of like old Disney. But I also. think no one was telling them, oh, the. data says you got to move on. >> Yeah. Nobody was giving them. instructions. The the other thing that's. interesting is that um the the the. mistake that data makes is that they. don't account for the fact that the. audience might change its mind. And. audience is changing the moment when an.

audience changes its mind. And when I. say changes his mind, I simply mean when. they go from they might go from. indifference to engagement, >> from puzzlement to joy to just some. shift. And again, I'm I'm sure you've. experienced this a million times because. you live this in some sense in your live. performances. That moment and that. moment doesn't always happen at the. beginning. In fact, and sometimes it's. way better if it happens deep into the. performance and you can tell. [snorts]. >> Why are you guys pointing at each other?

>> We we both we Eugene and I met doing. standup. >> That's how we met in South Africa. How. many years has it been? 20. Yeah. 20. years ago. We met we basically started. standup comedy in the same week. >> Same week. Yeah. >> In the same venue. >> And that's like our origin story. And it. took many years. Then we became friends. >> Yeah. >> But what you're saying now. >> Yeah. is exactly that's why. >> this is exactly what we've been saying. >> the shift. >> but it's exactly the way you said it. there. >> even this morning we had the same. conversation about something else that. we go. >> is that sometimes the the reward is not.

that you get it immediately it's that. you don't know when it's going to happen. and then all of a sudden you go. >> that's it this is it. >> wow I'm I'm into something you know. where that happened to me recently. >> have you watched maybe your girls are. too young but I think they'll still. enjoy it have you watched uh Demon K-pop. Hunter on Netflix. >> no no See, I've seen it. >> Can I tell you K-pop Demon Hunters or De. Yeah, K-pop Demon Hunters. I think. >> I started this movie. >> In the first like 3 minutes, I was like, "Ah, this is not for me.".

>> And then 40 minutes later, I was sitting. there on the couch, >> completely mesmerized, completely. entertained, just like boopping along, just like like every day, that's just me. like singing along just like, "You're my. soda pop. You're my soda pop." I can't. explain it. >> Yeah. >> But it's what you're saying. Yeah, >> I gave it a chance. I went with it. and now I got the reward. >> But if if I if I succumbed to that. initial instinct, that 3 minutes, 4. minutes, I would have gone, "This is not. for me.".

>> But that's very Oh, sorry, Malcolm. That's very similar to what standup. comedy really is. >> It's like raising children. You suspend. disbelief. >> Mhm. >> And you just go with the flow and be. able to be surprised at some point. >> or you just bump into something. >> Cuz that's that's what happens when. adults watch children's shows. They. first start resisting. >> Then they go, "Well, dog is not. talking." And they go, "Wow, Blue is. actually Blue is a Blue is a boy. Blue. is a girl. Is is what's going on here?". Then you become more involved cuz you've. suspended disbelief. But it takes a long.

time. And that's what happens with. comedy. The first five minutes. You're. trying to express yourself and you're. trying to go to people, forget about. your job, forget where you parked your. car. >> Let me take you to another planet. >> Then you character like yours, not your. girls. There's got to be something you. watched where you're like cuz. >> in this recent iteration cuz I never. watched any of this as a kid. >> But that's what I'm saying. You never. watched [laughter] TV as a child. Disclaimer like. >> Malcolm Gladwell didn't watch television. as a child. >> How? >> He lived in like a like a learned. household.

>> I didn't watch television till I got to. college. >> at all. >> Well, barely. I mean, I would go over to. a friend's house every now and again and. watch like a football game, but I No, I. knew nothing. I mean, I would fake it. >> Um, >> you think that you've never watched TV? >> No, no, the time. So if you talked to me. in high school, you would have thought. we had television, but I was just. reading about I was just reading about. these shows and faking it. [laughter]. >> You think that YOU HAD WATCHED. TELEVISION? OH MAN, THIS IS SO FUNNY. >> You see this week on the A team of the A. team? >> No, it's not that hard to It wasn't that.

hard to do. And I would I for year I was. a huge basketball fan and football fan. in high school and I had I had never. seen a professional uh basketball game. and I had only seen like an incredibly. small number of but I can to this day I. can talk about the 1970s era San Antonio. Spurs. I never my favorite player was. the Iceman George Gerbin. I never saw. George Gerin play. I would read about. him in Sports Illustrated once a week.

>> and I constructed George Gerin in my. mind and I would read these I to this. day I can quote he he was George Griffin. was this he was a kind of spectral. figure. He was again I never saw him but. this is what I learned from reading. about him. He was um he was the greatest. scorer in the game in the mid-70s and he. was he was very very very thin and he. had all these kind of he was not a great. athlete but he had all these kind of wy. moves. Um and he would give these. incredibly conlike. bizarre quotes to the media and my.

favorite one was when he was explaining. his ability to get to the basket. Uh. uh whereas I be not too fast from here. or there otherwise my game be. zigzagging. Uh-huh. which I as a. 12-year-old. So, you never heard that. voice. That was the voice [laughter] you. heard, but those were the words he said. >> Yes. Whereas I be not too fast from here. to there, otherwise my my game be. zigzagging. Uh-huh. And I remember, so. [laughter] I'm I'm 12. I'm in I'm in. rural Ontario in Canada in a little farm.

school with like a lot of menites. I. have no TV. I have no conception of what. a professional basketball game is. And I. read that quote and I just and I just. think this guy sounds so fantastic. So I. have a in my growing up I have a big. poster of George Kervin. >> who you have never seen play. >> Never seen to this day never seen him. play. I mean he's long retired but every. now and again there's some mention of. George Kervin. >> You have no yearning to like go find. like [clears throat] a tape or go. >> I don't want to ruin it. It was way. better in my imagination. >> It you know because I that imagine if.

you're working off that quote. >> So he's not fast from here to there but. his game be zigzagging. You can imagine. in your mind how he gets to the basket, right? >> He's and he's like he's literally I have. my p you the picture on my wall. He's 67. 68 and if he's 160 lbs I'd be stunned. He's he's a he's rail thin. So he's like. slipping his slipping and sliding his. way like you know doing some I don't. know I never saw him but like doing some. weird thing with his hand. That's so.

like your my I mean I and I became. hooked on to this day. I'm a massive. basketball fan. But that was its origin. was was I know all the stories of these. players. I just don't know anything. about. >> I mean that's the most important thing, isn't it? >> It is the most important thing. >> No, really it is because that is the. story. Like when we talk about a. legendary game if you go like Liverpool. AC Milan, you're talking about the. story. >> See? >> Yes. >> That's what you're doing. >> I do that every time with football. Every time cuz I hate football. >> Oh god, I hate how he does that. >> Hate football. But I've learned where to. jump in. M let's make an example there.

>> I I hate this. >> Let's say you're talking about. >> I can't believe you're gonna make me. entertain this. >> Go ahead. >> Wait, what's your favorite football. team, by the way? >> Liverpool. >> Liverpool. >> How did it come to be Liverpool? >> So, I I grew up. >> Oh, man. You know, let me give you Gene. his example so he doesn't mess up my. >> No, you're doing quite Go ahead. >> No, no, no. I'll I'll give you the. example. [laughter]. >> Have you seen how Liverpool plays? >> Jeez. You know, anyway, carry on here. this season with An Slot and just like.

since An Slot came, you've seen an. evolution in the game. >> But before there was an Slot. Anyway, carry on here. >> This is what he does. >> He's never watched. He doesn't watch. He. doesn't care to watch. He doesn't care. >> And then I've seen him inflame people. around us. >> Yeah. >> Cuz he'll they'll get agitated because. they'll they'll think he's agreeing with. them or disagreeing with them. And then. I have to stop them and go, "Eugene. doesn't know anything about the sport.". [laughter]. >> I'd be zigzagging. Uh-huh. [laughter]. >> Otherwise,

>> you forgot the otherwise, which is the. crucial that is the c in the. construction that sentence the. otherwise. >> So, okay, I'll tell you how I became a. fan. So, [snorts]. >> it is a long story, but it'll it'll. it'll it'll tell you a lot. >> We've got time. >> Okay. Thank you. >> I didn't grow up liking soccer. In fact, I I I quite hated it because it was the. thing that interrupted my ability to. play video games on a television. M. >> so whenever I'd want to play TV as they. were called when I was young. >> then my uncle and all these people would.

walk in and be like turn that off we. want to watch the game and as a child I. used to think that the game was like 3 4. hours long I was just like this never. ends right so I didn't like it didn't. like it didn't like cuz we had one TV. and that TV was taken away from me by. football fast forward many years. ironically video games bring me back to. the sports so a series gets released. called FIFA And it's, you know, it's a. soccer game. I play that. I start loving. the game. Like you, I start falling in. love with players who I've never watched.

because [clears throat] I see them as. digital recreations running across my. screen. Who is this person? You know. what I mean? Who like I'm mirror love. closer. Who is this German? I love him. The way he headers the ball the way and. I get sucked into this world which is a. faximile. >> of the real world. So when I talk to. people who like love football, they know. what I'm talking about. >> Mhm. And then at some point it would. break down because they would go like, "Oh, where did you?" And I go like, "Oh, no. I don't watch the game. I just play. the video game." Some people would would.

would be happy. Others would feel like. I'd betrayed them. They feel like I. catfished them. >> Sounds familiar. >> So [laughter]. So then. >> I think like from there I started. falling in love with the game. >> With the real game. >> Yeah. With like the real real real game. >> Yeah. >> And then. >> But you're not Are you watching Premier. League in South Africa? >> It was on but I couldn't get it. And I. think that's part of it. >> Yeah. you had to have like a premium. television. You had like satellite TV, that type of stuff. >> So, you fast forward many years and I've. now become a fan of players,

>> coaches, >> and like random, you know, collections. I don't support teams at this time. because I was like, a team doesn't care. about me. >> They would sell a player without. consulting anyone. I would see friends. around me distraught. >> Literally, I've seen it even now in like. the NBA. People, how could we trade? How. could we trade Luca? How could we? And. I'm like, what? It's not we. They did it. to you. >> You're sad now. And so I remember. thinking the one thing I do not want is. to be part of this inherited sadness.

that I have [laughter] nothing to do. with. So I would just support players. I. would go around with them. Then one day. I fell in through the video game. I fell. in love with a coach by the name of. Jurgen Klopp. >> German coach who was coaching a team. called Barussia Dortmund. >> And Dortmund. What I loved about them is. they were the underdogs of the German. league. They were playing against a team. called Bayern Munich who were the most. powerful, richest you. They won every. year. >> So they were top of the heap in the. Bundesliga. >> That see this guy knows the Bundesliga. You see what he did there? >> See this? He got me excited. Then I. remembered [laughter] he doesn't care.

But for that moment, you got me excited. >> and they challenged and they won and. they did they, you know, to borrow from. the movie 300, they showed that a god. could bleed. >> Mhm. >> Ah. >> And I loved what Jurgen Klopp had done. Then Bayern Munich basically pillaged. bought all the players from that team. other teams bought the players the team. didn't become Jurgen Klopp left he went. to Liverpool. >> at the same time Liverpool in the game. the video game was becoming better. because they had like a bunch of players. who were amazing Fernando Torres Daniel. Sturridge Raheem Sterling all of these.

guys so I was loving the players in the. video game cuz it was great to play with. them Jurgen Klopp goes there. >> then I became friends like closer. friends with another South African who. loved Liverpool he wouldn't stop talking. about Liverpool but he would show me. cool things that were around Liverpool. And then the first live game that I went. to was a Liverpool game, but it was in. New York, ironically. >> Ah. >> And. >> have you been to a Liverpool game in. Liverpool? >> Oh, I have. I have. It's like church. >> Is that the one where they sing You. Never Walk. >> You'll never walk alone. >> Oh my god. That's. >> I just got goosebumps. >> Okay, so that.

>> Welcome, you're so good. >> That video there there's a there's a. there's like a a short list of like five. YouTube videos that I just endlessly. watch whenever I need some kind of And. there's a video of the crowd singing. Do. you know the I don't know there must be. many. >> must be many but do we should we should. you explain the. >> please explain to me yes. >> the context is. >> it's a song by is it Jerry and the. pacemaker who who sings it originally. >> no man what's his name Ryan. >> Jerry the basement it is Jerry Pace.

>> but they have a terrible they have a. tragedy up. >> yes the Hillsbury disaster. >> and they adopt that song. >> oh. >> and then they sing it every time they. sing it at every game and the whole. crowd in that wonderful way the one. thing about English football that again. I know nothing about it but I know that. they love to sing collective singing. >> and collective singing is one of the. most emotionally powerful things human. beings do. It's like coral like coral. music is like. yeah. >> and they sing this song and there's a.

it's a video online and it's just like. I'm in tears like a minute in. >> You get it. >> and I have no connection with Liverpool. >> You get it my friend. The first time I. heard that song live. >> Yeah. I was actually in Ukraine. >> and I'd gone to watch Liverpool in the. Champions League fin like hearing it. live like that and it was the Champions. League final. They were playing against. Real Madrid and I will never forget that. moment. You walk into the stadium. >> and as we walked in they started singing. it. They they they first play it. >> on like the the PA system in the.

stadium. >> So you hear the like the original voice. like when you walk and then the crowd. starts picking up. >> Sing more of it. Come on. Like when you. walk and it starts and it plays through. the storm, >> hold your head. up high and then the crowd starts coming. and [laughter] don't [singing]. be afraid. of the dark. Sing it, Ryan. I know you. want to sing [laughter] it. And like.

>> No, NO, NO. CARRY ON. CARRY ON. DON'T. STOP. >> Such a great song. Everyone, this is the. part where everyone must. 50,000 people are seeing this thing and. it's just like it's devastating you and. there's a part where the best part of. the song in every stadium in every game. is it stops. >> That's right. >> There's a part where like the you can't. you don't know if you I don't know if. they stop or if you can't hear it. Maybe. it's the magic that makes me think that. >> But all you then hear is the crowd. >> cuz it it gets to like the bridge and.

then the chorus. You know what I And. it's like walk on. rain, walk on and you feel it revering. through the rain and you'll never and it. just like and then the whole crowd. >> you. but even I got goosebumps just on top of. that. >> I'm not going to be corny. The message is so beautiful. It responds. to this tragedy. This idea of singing a. song, all of us singing a song saying. you'll never walk alone. It's like, you. know, to and it's it's a song to the.

essentially to the families of the. victims, right? We're with you. >> So, it's so beautiful. Really is. beautiful. It's what it's it's music at. its best in that kind of. >> Yes. And all of these things drew me to. the club because what I also loved about. that story was. that song, the club, everything. It was. like one of the f not first, but it was. it was one of the more significant. stories where people realized that a a. tale could be told about a group of.

people that wasn't true that could. affect how other people see them. So, at. this disaster, like the press at the. time, Ryan, you'll correct me at any. point when I'm wrong here, but like it. was the press at the time, they they. they basic the mainstream press blamed. >> the fans and blamed the people who had. died and they were like, "You're the. cause and blah." And then it came out. that it wasn't it wasn't their fault and. it was what what did the police have to. do with it again? >> Uh the police lied and said the. Liverpool fans caused the stampede. So.

it was a stampede. >> Yeah. Yeah. But they said the fans. caused it. >> The stadium too, isn't it? Is a def fac. But the point is they blamed the fans. They didn't just go like hey let's see. what happened and we don't. No, they. blamed the fans. And so part of it also. became this. >> this rallying cry against you know. establishment that was unjust. >> Mhm. >> And in that moment we're talking about. are we talking about the 70s? When does. this happen? >> Wait, I just shout Ryan anywhere in the.

world. Question. You shout Ryan and. >> I think it was in the early 80s. >> Oh, early 80s. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But it is it is goosebumps. And so now. to get to the end of that, the reason I. love Liverpool, >> the way they play football, >> the fans when you go to Liverpool like. Liverpians, >> what are they called? >> Liverpudians, >> the Beatles, >> the funniest people, the most. interesting people, the the cult I can't.

is fantastic. >> It really is amazing. It really is. >> Can you do it? >> I can't do a per No. If I talk to. There's a comedian, John Bishop. If I. talk to him for a while, I can start. picking it up, but then I lose it cuz. you know like English accents, if you if. you mess up one part, all of a sudden. you're like. >> back to default. >> Yeah. You're in like Birmingham now and. they're like, "No, that's Brummy." And. you're like, "Ah, wait, wait. Say it. again. Say it again. Say it again." And. you just you have to find like a few key. words. >> I was sitting in a coffee shop this. weekend and there were two people from. Manchester young. And they one was just. moved here to work and one was visiting.

her and they were talking that accent. It was just so fantastic. [laughter]. Describing New York through a Manchester. accent. It's just like I was just I. [laughter] just stopped working and just. eaves dropped for like an hour and a. half. It was just amazing. But anyway, yeah. No, you there are very specific. you know those those you can locate the. you know the region really through the. accent on its own. Oh yeah. You know, you know the guy there's a linguist at. Columbia, John Mcuarter. Um and he he.

can he can tell I always call him up if. I have any kind of and play him tape of. people talking and he'll say, "Oh yeah, yeah, that person's from, you know, they. they're from Baltimore in the and they. grew up in the 70s, right? or they're. from he has that for and I've been. trying to force him to write a encourage. him to write a book about America a. history of American accents where he. describes the whole an audio book where. he walks you through how you can tell. the difference between someone from. southern Kansas and someone from you. know Nebraska or you know in the.

>> story is always the most fascinating. >> and he he he's also uh he's this. incredibly fascinating black guy heavily. into um Broadway theater linguist kind a. little bit of a provocator. He he's. incapable of being uninteresting. He. just everything he says I my favorite. thing is I will go to I'll go to see. he's a lavist at Columbia. I've gone a. couple times and I just play him tape. and I say what's going on here? He go. well and then he's off to the races, right? I played him a tape of of um I.

might have told you this story before. I. was doing this thing on on Tom Bradley, the black mayor of Los Angeles, and I. was listening to all this tape of him. He was a the mayor in the 70s and 80s. If [clears throat] you listen to him, he. sounds like a white guy. >> I was like, "Well, that's weird because. if you were a black mayor today, you. wouldn't sound like a white guy.". >> So, I go to John and I say, "Well, >> what's going on here?" He's like, "Well, you know, there was a period in in in. American life where if you were a black. person, you wanted to succeed, you had. to sound like a white person." And that.

ends in and he tells me the moment that. it shifts like you can listen to. contemp. There's a moment when being a. black public figure no longer required. you to sound white but required you to. sound black. >> whatever local regional otherwise you. would you you know you went from being. >> in the before that moment you would be. seen as illegitimate and uh you know un. uneducated if you sounded quote unquote. black. Yeah. After that moment you would. be seen as inauthentic as front as.

pretending to be someone that you. weren't. M. >> and what was the catalyst? >> The catalyst I forgot. It's sometime in. the late. >> 60s early 70s. I've forgotten the. specific but it has to do as you can. imagine with the rise of kind of black. empower black nationalism, black. empowerment. Um it's it's this it's this. incredibly crucial shift in the way. white people view black people and the. way black people view themselves in this. country. And it's marked linguistically.

And so Tom Bradley was a vestage. He's. born in the teens. So he's a vestage of. the earlier. And you listen to him like. I mean this guy is like black black. He's not light-skinned. He's a you know. and he was the most impactful black. politician in the country for years and. years and if if you if you never saw a. picture of him, you would think he was. white. It's it's just so fascinating to. me. >> I love I love I mean Eugene, how many. languages do you speak? Well, as many as possible in South.

Africa, but I No, but I mean seriously. >> No, no. Because he's like he's like one. of my favorite linguists. >> Are you serious? >> Yes. South African languages. Yes. >> He's phenomenal with languages. >> Wow. Wait, how many languages are spoken. in South Africa as a whole? >> 11 official which the 11th one is a sign. language and the other two the other one. is. >> and how closely related are they? Well, so there's. which is Zulu. They sound almost alike and Swati and. then there's Sutu and there's a northern.

Sutu and there's Southern Sutu which is. Swana and Sepi. So they are all almost. uh interlin but if you don't know how to. tell the difference you wouldn't be able. to. >> Why why is it you know so many of them? What what is it about your life that led. you to master nine of them? Well, I grew. up in a in a township like many South. Africans at the time and in our section. it was a Tonga section where my. grandfather worked in the railroads. So. he came from Nellspra where they speak. Sisati. So he came all the way to Ptoria.

and then in Ptoria they put him in a. section where Tonga people live. So he. had to learn Shitzonga. So. >> which isn't like mainstream. >> not very so there's two languages that. are not mainstream. Shitzonga and. Chivenda which is more north and the. other one is the other side. So he had. to learn that and when we grew up it was. just a language that he would speak with. his friends around the neighborhood. And. then when we would go to school we would. go to another section that speaks isulu. And the school that I went to I had to. learn isulu. But to get to that school I. had to go through a section that spoke. Isutu.

>> So so to to to navigate your way. >> from home to school and to understand. what my cuz I was very nosy to. understand what my grandfather was. saying with his friends. I would often. each drop and I would ask him what what. what is that? What is that? And before I. knew it, I could speak all the. languages. And my mom was a nurse. So in. hospital, she would be called all the. time to come and translate for the. doctors who couldn't understand the. language. So language just became. normal. >> Do you mix them up or do you stay with. one language when you're speaking it? >> I choose to stay with one, but it.

becomes easy cuz I sometimes speak. shitonga with him and he thinks he. doesn't know [ __ ] but he speaks very. well. >> No, I understand. But I mean, but. [clears throat] that's but that's. fluency in a language. But here's the. thing that I've remember this is we have. 11 official languages. >> I would argue most people in South. Africa speak two three maximum. Yes, for. the most part. So like when I'm I'm. always fascinated by people who speak. like way more languages cuz I go like. how do you and then I'll ask him for the. vocabulary and the words. But the. accents that you're saying. >> I find super fascinating because it's a.

story. >> Yeah. >> You know what I mean? We we we forget. that when somebody speaks with an accent. there's a story that comes with that. accent. like always. >> it it it is almost the same in South. Africa what your friend was trying to. explain to you when languages and. accents started losing what their value. was to the people that spoke the. languages. So migrant workers would try. their kids would assimilate to where. they were. >> Yeah. >> So they would lose the language. So. people who come who speak is from the. kingdom of Esati which is formerly known. as Swisilland will be closer to people.

that live in the Nellsprit which is the. east but when they come to the north. they will stop using that language. And. there's also a historic kind of side to. it where King Shaga, king of the Zulus, had a brother that he sent. His name was. Sangan that he sent up east to go to. Mozambique to go conquer there. >> Then he never he never left. He found it. interesting and he loved it with his. little tribe. He built a nation and. those people started speaking a dialect. of what the people there were speaking. which was a mixture of Portuguese and. the indigenous language. It was called.

Shizonga. But then when people were. being derogatory towards his brother, they said Shangan and then they people. were called Shangans. And then that. language started dying out because. people were ashamed to be called by the. majority group that they called. basically if you call someone that you. call them a defector. >> Oh, I see. >> I I love these things because. >> fascinating. Yeah. >> So So to your point, >> um one of my friends Yeah. she like was. like deep in um she studied this for.

acting school like in the UK and then. came out here. Ella, you know, Ella. Bolinska, fantastic actress and she like. learned all these things and she like. took me on a journey like you're saying. >> So she can she can show you how the New. Orleans accent, you can trace it back to. like an actual French accent. Wow. >> And if someone does it well, you'll go, "That's not possible." I've even had a. friend show me that like with Jamaican. >> and then like take Jamaican and then. stitch it to parts of England but then.

also stitch it to parts of India. >> and then you end up with a Jamaican. accent. >> Wow. >> And you're just like damn. It's amazing. how you you you're telling a story every. time you're speaking. >> cuz those all of those Jamaica had lots. of Indians, >> lots of Chinese and heavily Scottish. The white the initial kind of um white. immigration into Jamaica was Scottish. largely. Oh, >> I didn't know that. >> Yeah. Yeah. So you have like it's why so. many Jamaicans have Scottish last names, right? The but um the uh the that you.

get that you can see the the elements. that combine to create I I knew a. Jamaican girl once. Not Jamaican. Well, she was she was well she's complicated. I met her she lived she grew up in. Miami. >> Her parents were family was Jewish. Her. grandparents were had lived in Cuba and. uh then had moved to Jamaica. So she had. her accent was. >> Miami, Cuba, Jamaica, Jewish. And. [laughter] I could listen, she was I. could listen to this girl all day long.

I just like everything else about her. just like faded [laughter] into I just. said just talk. It's just incredible. And I you know every every you know how. when someone's speaking normally I my. question the question in my mind is what. word is coming next? With her it's not. just what word is coming [clears throat]. next. What's the word going to sound. like? Because it was so utterly. unpredictable. I'd never heard this. before. Anyway, she was. >> Wait, but I just realized we didn't we. didn't get your answer. Who was What was. your What's your favorite children's.

character? >> You haven't watched the movies. >> Oh, going all the way back. Uh, my. favorite. >> What's that? Cuz you just watched now. So, like now, >> uh, just be honest, Malcolm. >> Well, I'll tell you. I'm getting. annoyed. [laughter]. >> That's a good place to start. this guy. I just wanted the character and then he. gladelled us. [laughter]. >> No, no, no. >> I just wanted the character. >> I'm getting there. I'm getting there. I'm getting there. >> I'm the the whole blonde, blue-eyed. Disney heroin thing, which I know is a.

cliche, is driving me crazy. >> Okay, >> it's really really deeply annoying. >> But why does every Why is Why are they. all the fairest damsel in the land? Like. enough already. Why can't you know in. the original Cinderella Cinderella is. just like an ordinary girl like she's. just a kind of you know she's no. different than anybody else but she gets. lucky and then Disney comes along and. insists that she has to be a bombshell. Why does she have to be Why does she. Marilyn Monroe in the original fairy. tale? It's way better in She's just an.

ordinary girl who has a fantastic thing. happen to her. And so if you're a kid. and you listen to Cinderella, you're. like, "Oh my goodness, amazing things. can happen to all of us." Yes. >> Disney comes along, >> makes her into Marilyn Monroe, and says. basically, unless you're [laughter]. >> unless you're drop dead gorgeous and. have a heart of gold, it's not. >> it's not happening for you. >> Not happening for you. And if things. don't happen for you, it's because. you're not. >> good-looking enough and you've done some. evil thing. So my daughter is sitting.

here. We're watching Cinderella and I'm. just thinking, "Oh my god, what is what. can they let up already on like. >> can someone even just have dark hair for. why does everyone have to be blonde? What is what crazy Germanic like like. Aryan fantasy is being worked out in. Walt Disney's mind as he's doing this?". >> I mean, you just said it. >> Mhm. That's hilarious. [laughter] You. just You're like, "What? What is going. on in Walt Disney's mind? This Aryan. Yeah, you just said it. Anyway,

>> we know how Walt Disney felt. So, I. mean, do you know what I mean? >> There was that nothing. >> Yeah, I don't I know nothing about Walt. Disney about how anti-semitic he was. >> I did not know that. >> Oh, damn. Oh, I thought like you would. Oh, yeah. Walt Disney, man. Hella. problematic. >> Really? [laughter]. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, >> tell us more, Trevor. >> I had no idea. I assumed he was Jewish. >> Why? >> With a last name I mean in Hollywood at. that era. >> Disney. [laughter]. >> You did I not know that Disney's career? Can I tell you by the way Poland? >> By the way, here's [laughter] the here's.

the craziest. This is my my personal. experience of the my current. So, I love. No, I I have to know where people are. from. Okay, I have to. First question I. always ask everyone is literally I need. to know where you're from. I need to. know what your background is. I need to. know to know what the languages you. speak. I need to know that in order it's. just I don't know if it's a bad or a. good habit, but it just is an important. one. It's important for me to know. Did. you grow up outside of Ptoria? I grew up. in Pritory. >> Oh, in Ptori that's important for me to. know. >> My grandfather's the one who came in. >> And you're Johannesburg.

>> Johannesburg. Okay. Important for me to. know. Um, so I'm watching the Billy Joel. documentary on HBO and I don't know. I. thought he was Italian. Is that crazy? [laughter]. >> He I thought he was an Italian guy from. Lang. So I don't know if Have you. watched this documentary? It's. fantastic. So like we're 20 minutes in. and it's like of course we were Jewish. I'm like And I suddenly wake up. [laughter] Wait, this is almost Jewish. And then then so I'm like, "Oh my god, like this is like rocking my world." And.

my my wife who is half Jewish and from. Long Island and is like, you know, Billy. Joel was in her hometown. She worships. Billy Joel. My she plays like Uptown. Girl for my four-year-old constantly. So. my wife is like, "What? What? You didn't. know he was Jewish?" I was like, "No, I. thought he was Italian." Then it keeps. going and like in the second part you. learn that his family his grandfather. was a he's comes from this highborn. sophisticated intellectual German Jewish. family. They were industrialists. They.

owned a big manu uh garment uh. manufacturing plant in Nuremberg. The. Nazis took it over and the the stripe, you know, the stripe pajamas that were. in the concentration camps. >> that the Nazis turned that plant into a. plant that made those. So if you look on. the label of the stripe pajamas, it says. Joel. >> No ways. >> Absolutely. And then so then you get the. name of the. >> Yeah, of course they did. That's weird.

>> The labels are already there. So. >> they already know the Germans. >> It's weird that they put labels. Sorry, I'm I'm focusing on the wrong part. This. is just like a weird. >> But then you understand. So I always. wondered why did Billy Joel cuz I would. there's a famous You ever watch Inside. the Actor Studio? Yes. >> Okay. So there's the one with him which. I saw years ago is one of the greatest. ones of all time. >> Okay. >> And you realize, oh, cuz he would play. all this classical music. You're like, he knows all this. I was like, so I was. trying to I thought he was like. workingass Italian from Long Island. What? How does he knowchaikovsky from.

memory? Like it didn't make any sense to. me. But now I was like, "Oh, his father. was a classically trained. >> pianist.". >> Because of course they come from this. incredibly sophisticated family in. Europe. I totally located him in the. wrong place. So for me who loves to. locate people, this is like so. destabilizing. And then in the. documentary, and this is the problem. with the documentary. So my first. thought is okay, now that I know this. fact, >> why isn't the whole first and he has a. falling out with his father disappears.

The whole documentary should be about. his father. >> The whole thing is about Billy Joel's. whole life is kid of this insanely. sophisticated intellectual German Jewish. family who are Holocaust escapes comes. to Long Island and reinvents himself as. like a Long Island streethood, but he. can't pull off the reinvention quote. unquote successfully because he's too. sophisticated plays. >> He's too smart and he plays. So that's. the story. And what his father. disappears from the family and what's he.

doing in his whole life? He's chasing. this this vanished father who represents. this the sophisticated side that he has. kind of lost contact with, right? And. there's a moment in the dock. [clears throat] and they only give you. 30 seconds of it which drove me crazy. where you he finds his father years. later who's living in Vienna and that. song Vienna waits for you. It's about. his father. It's about finding his. father in Vienna. I didn't know that. No. one told me that. I just thought he went. to Vienna on holiday. No, no, it's about. his father. So then [laughter] you you.

hear that song, Vienna Waits for You. It's one. I don't know any songs by. their titles. >> It's one of the most beautiful of all. the Billy Joel songs. And I heard it as. a kid and I was like I was, you know, almost moved to tears by it, but I just. thought he's random, you know, he's a. random he's a Italian kid dreaming about. Vienna. No, his dad's living in Vienna. He discovers his dad in Vienna. He goes. there, writes the song, and then they. show you, he's at this concert, and he. show him, they show him saying, "Dad, if. you'd come up and if you want to play, and then they cut to They have two grand.

pianos pushed together, and Billy's on. one, and his dad's on the other.". >> Oh, wow. >> And it's like, we they only they gave us. 10 seconds of this and they should have. given us 45 minutes. >> We need the Gladwell cut. That's what we. need. >> We need. >> We should actually just do this. You. know what? I'm I'm going to pitch you a. business here. You you just go in and we. just gladwell everything. So we gladwell. Disney movies, we gladwell. documentaries, we glad cuz clearly. there's the gladwell cuts. >> and and you basically go off on your own. tangent. >> The one that you would have loved to. see. >> I don't want to just the global cut. I.

think the three of us this should be a. business for the three of us. I would I. think you all of us should contribute to. the to the reimagining of these flawed. classics. >> What? The Disney ones? Yeah. But but. here Okay. But have you watched the. newer ones? Well, I've watched because. they have No, because they have been. reimagined. We did. >> I didn't want to spoil it for you cuz. I'm Moana the other night. >> Yeah, >> but it gets really violent. >> I'm like, >> that's what it's like. That's what it'd. be like to be young, female, and black. [laughter].

>> when your friend is a chicken and one is. a pig. [laughter]. >> And you're stuck with an older guy. >> with a catamaran and your gran is a. ghost and your grandfather ran away from. your dad and he's a spirit of the seas. >> The chicken. >> Eugene watches a lot of Moana. >> Do you tell one? Yes. >> How old? >> Uh my daughter's uh turning 17 this. year. >> Oh, are you away? You're years away from. this. >> What? >> From Moana. >> We watched IT THE OTHER DAY. [laughter]. CAN YOU NOT TELL? What do you mean? Can.

you You're assuming that his daughter is. the one who wants to watch it. >> Oh, is he? [laughter] Oh, yeah. >> He was the one who. has to put it on for him. >> Make way. >> Yeah. She's [laughter] the one who's. putting it on for him. I I actually feel. like you know what the Disney movies, one of the issues I actually have is. >> and maybe this is like the Gladwell part. of my brain is I go. >> I think Disney did a major disservice to. an entire generation that has grown up. on it. >> because it gave us a false idea of how.

things turn out. >> Yeah. >> Happy endings. >> But not just happy endings. It's like. the way things turn out. Like I'll talk. to a lot of people who go the world. I. can't believe this. I can't believe they. can't believe Trump won. They can't. believe this is still happening. They. can't. Then I'm like, but why can you. not believe it? And then for me at. least, I go, >> if you've grown up your whole life being. told that the good guy always wins, that. the damsel always gets saved, that the. you know, then when you go out into. life, you're like, don't worry, you just.

wait. Trump, oh, you'll see what happens. to him by the third act. [laughter]. >> You'll see what happens to him. It's. only And then it's like, it's not a. matter of time now. That's not actually. how the world works. Do you get what I'm. saying? And I think those movies. >> are partially to blame for that. >> And I don't know if you would know this, maybe you know deep, but like. >> a lot of them were based on stories that. didn't have those endings. You do know. that, right? >> I know. They changed them. >> Walt. >> No, no, but but seriously, they were not. happy endings. They like I think in one. of them, is it Sleeping Beauty or Snow?

She just dies. >> She is actually dead. >> She is dead. >> Yeah, Sleeping Beauty. She is dead. >> So, they're just kissing a dead body. >> The original Grim Brothers. There's a. word for that in the English language. >> What is it? >> Oh, necroilia. [laughter]. Say it where there are 11 languages. >> Doom. [laughter]. >> Oh man. You know that's another way. You. know the thought that I had about that. the thought I had about [laughter]. >> I'm still recovering from and the.

expressive. Do they all [laughter] have. [clears throat]. was it you putting that on or is is. there something in that language that is. more expressive and well. >> cuz there's some languages. >> half the language but it's doom. [laughter]. >> that's definitely half in the language. >> That's half in the language. >> It definitely [laughter] is like the the. the name for flipflops. [laughter]. >> That's better. That is so much better. >> because it's the sound that they make. when you walk. >> So much better. Yeah. So much better.

[laughter]. It's doom boo. >> But that does sound like a dead body. >> if you think about it. Okay, think of. imagine if you had a dead body. [laughter]. >> and you dropped it on the ground. >> So, okay, I will I will hold the dead. body. You're going to say the word as I. drop this dead body. You got Oh, man. This this body is so heavy. Oh, god. damn. OH, NO. I DROPPED IT. DOOM. [laughter]. >> WAIT, what's the little translation of. doom? Doom.

>> Doom. It's a corpse. >> Oh, I see. [laughter] Yes. But I'm. saying, what sound does a dead body make. when you drop it? [laughter]. >> Exactly that. >> There there should be an aggressive. program to incorporate like my mother. uses this. This is a Jamaican word for. it's not quite a ras. It's a lovable. rascal, but it's more than that. It's. jinnel. >> Jel. >> Jinnel. >> Okay. >> And she would Some of my fondest. memories as a child are doing something. that was clearly wrong. my mother.

calling me a jel and I it what it meant. was. >> what you did was wrong but I it's like. that. >> No, no, it's more that I love you. It's. not that I I forgive you and I love you. It's that. >> I recognize that the core of that. behavior is something I would like to. keep alive and cherish. >> Oh wow. That's what it is. Ah, >> the general is like the the general the. general is a is is um the general will. save us if we're if we're all imperiled. and like the overlord is make the. general is the one who will you know.

it's the it's the enancy figure it's the. it's the classic in in sort of African. folklore the idea of the mischief maker. who could save the day right. >> it is not inherently bad. >> but it causes so much mischief that we. don't like it but in a time of need it. will step up exactly that particular. thing that's just a lovely word and I I. taught it to my daughter because she's a. gentle so she [laughter] now uses she. now. >> the old the four-year-old she now uses. gel. It makes me so happy. She accused. her mother of being a general. I was. like [laughter] I was like first of all.

your mother is not a general. That's. actually not what Kate is. [laughter]. Oh man. Causing chaos in the household. Oh man. But like those my the all those. little those those little folkisms cuz. this my mother would have. >> who's turned 94 yesterday. >> Yeah. would have learned that from. uh she you know the the the nanny she. would have had in the little tiny place. in the middle of Jamaica in the 30s.

would have been the who was an older. woman would have been probably the. daughter or granddaughter of a sla of a. of someone who might have been born in. Africa because remember. >> yes. >> West Indian slaves were um because they. all died off they were constantly. bringing new ones so you could be. actually be. >> the granddaughter of someone who came. from Africa So that's an African term. that just gets. um just just enters straight into the. Jamaican ver vernacular. So it's like. it's this hilarious thing that now I'm.

the language of our household is echoing. >> the beautiful man. It's really. beautiful. I always feel like we got to. do that more. >> Yeah, that's why my point. We need to. you guys should come up with like three. or four words which you just try really. really hard to introduce into the. American vernacular that are better that. actually have some objective advantage. >> Okay, we'll do that. That will that'll. be our work. >> That will be your work. >> That'll be like our job. We'll work. through it and we'll figure I'll I'll. make note when you say something and. I'll be like I think that's what we can. get people saying. You know when you're.

right actually you know when I realized. that it's actually he actually speaks. more languages than he lets on and. actually we miss speaking the language. and I think people that have known him. for longer. >> over here don't know that he speaks the. languages is when we drift off and we. speak is. >> yeah yeah we'll just switch into and. then you just see everyone going. >> No but you know the weirdest thing. >> he's from there. [laughter]. >> HE'S FROM THERE WE FOUND HIM. >> and then Ice like shows.

>> [laughter]. >> It's like, "Oh, he's not an American.". >> Oh, man. >> Don't go anywhere [music] cuz we got. more What now after this? >> All right, Eugene, [music] let's play a. little game. You know, make something. fun. Two truths and a lie. >> Mhm. >> Here we go. One, I've had to tell a. world leader that their fly was undone. Two, when getting dressed, I don't do. sock sock shoe shoe. I do sock, shoe,

sock, shoe. Three, I've been a Verizon. customer for 11 years. What do you. think? >> Very confused. First of all, why would a. world leader own a fly? Cuz those things. just come uninvited. Secondly, lying to. your friends is not cool. There's never. been a game. >> No, Eugene, a fly is for like the zip is. what? And then it's it's it's not a lie. It's a game where I'm trying it's like I. give you information. Okay, I lied. All. three are true, Eugene. And in case you.

were thinking, you know, Verizon isn't. as expensive as you think. In fact, if. you bring in your AT&T or T-Mobile bill, they'll give you a better deal. And the. reason I've been with them for this long. is just because I travel so much. I need. a network that's reliable. That's right, a better deal on the best network with. the most ways to save on plan, streaming, and phone deals. Take your. AT&T or T-Mobile bill to your local. Verizon store today. Get your better. deal and start saving for real. Based on. root metrics, best overall mobile.

network performance, US second half. 2025. All rights reserved. You must. provide recent consumer mobile bill in. the name of the person redeeming the. deal. Additional terms, conditions, and. restrictions apply. So, do you understand how two truths and. do you understand it now? >> I understand that you didn't have to lie. first before telling me that Verizon is. the best. >> No, I wasn't [music] lying. Eugene, it's. not a lie. I wouldn't lie to you. It's a. game. Okay. I'm sorry [music] I lied. AH. [laughter].

[music]. >> OH, the the um that journal thing. Do. you do you think that that is sort of. what has informed how you write, how you. think, how you cuz I've always felt like. you're a mischievous reporter like you. don't let me tell you what I mean by. this like I've I've met many reporters. in my lifetime. >> and like even like the old old school.

ones like from the broker days you know. like Tom Bro like and they they have a. well let me tell you something when. you're searching for a fact you have to. know where a fact starts and where it. ends and you search for the story and. there's something about it that you have. to and there's like a there's like oh. Okay, I I get this. And then this. journalist today, you are one of the most mischievous. journalists I've ever met. And I think. that's part of what I like about your. thinking, your writing, your vibe. But. is do you think you kept that because of. what your mom said? >> I Well, it's I think first of all, thank.

you. Um, but uh I think it's because my. >> it doesn't feel mischievous to me. because my parents were the same way. >> They're both my mother is still who's. she's turn just turned 94. She's in a. nursing home in Canada and she writes. for the nursing home newsletter and. that's amazing. She sends them to me and. you know they're like really. interesting, thoughtful, but like half. the time she's like. you know picking a fight with some. [laughter].

or doing some it's really she's just in. a very in a very nice respectful way. she's causing trouble still. She's still. she's she's a troublemaker. has always. been a little bit of a, you know, like. there's there's something in her. >> Um, and I think that's a there there's. something an immigrant is someone, you. know, which um all of us at this table. are immigrants and my mother was an. immigrant three three times over um or. twice over. Um. >> I think an immigrant has that has that. impulse to because they they they're.

willing to shake up their life, right? >> [clears throat]. >> And so they once you've made this the. most the most once you've made the most. important of all decisions about shaking. up your life which is I am leaving. family friends and culture and going. somewhere else then everything else. seems. >> trivial in comparison right like. >> you know you've done the you've done the. hard thing like what you know you've. you've already thumbmed your nose at. what every what everyone else in your. circle is doing. You've left. So like. now you can it's why it's why com why.

are comics so often from you know either. either immigrant groups or marginalized. groups because they've they've already. done the big thing right after it's easy. after that. I wonder if it's augmented. by whether or not you chose your. immigration. because when you were saying that I was. I was trying to think through and I went. I actually feel like. there's almost two camps if we were. going to make it binary. >> I think there are some immigrants who.

are the opposite of that. >> Mhm. >> There are many immigrants who are like. no I do not shake. I do not there's no. mischief. There's no my only goal is to. fully become this new world. >> because I don't necessarily have another. choice. You know what I mean? >> But then I wonder if like you're more. likely to keep that mischief when your. choice was the thing. >> Yeah. >> Because if if you shake up your world, you're mischievous. But if the world. shakes up your your life, then you not. you not you don't necessarily have that. same thing. I think does that make.

sense? >> Mhm. It does. >> Like I think there are some people where. they go like my parents came here. because they wanted to da da da da. shaking. my. >> not always but sometimes those people. are like listen I this this is not my. choice. >> and so I don't want to be shaken up. again so I'm not going to be in a. position where I can be shaken up. >> yeah but there are ways that you always.

see how those groups that have migrated. from somewhere that they loved and that. they miss have always just rebelled a. little bit in the way they cook food or. the stealing of speaking their language. inside their house and sometimes not. losing their accents. >> cuz my grandfather was big in not trying. to lose his accent. >> Actively trying. >> Actively trying. >> That's a funny thought. >> cuz even the friends that he kept even. well into his old age were people that. came from the same province as him that. spoke the same language. Then he would. keep they would play cards together.

Yeah. And insist on speaking the. language and just sounding like they. were back home when they were not, you. know. So there is that little part he. would also make his own bilong. You know. what billong is? Like beef jerky. >> Beef jerky. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. He would insist on which drove my. grandmother crazy. He would just hold on. to those two things because what he. hated the most was the fact that when. his parents died, >> right, he had to go live with his uncle. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> So when he moved in with his uncle, he. lived with him for a while and then when.

it was time for him to get his ID card, he couldn't use his father's surname. which was so he had to use his uncle's. surname which was Ka which was my. surname. Oh, that's your surname. Yeah. >> Yes. And then all of his life from when. his first grandchild was born, he. insisted that we call him grandfather. and Gman. >> Mhm. >> So he wanted to hold on to the thing. that that Yeah. >> what his dad taught him how to make. jerky and also the language. >> But you see that's that's sort of what. I'm saying. If you think about it, because it [clears throat] was taken. from him,

>> he did not have the inclination to lose. it or to shake it up. His inclination. was, "Hold on to it as much as possible. I want to keep that accent, that last. name, that food." Yes. >> Because it was taken from him. But I. feel like there's like a there's a. mischievous luxury that comes with you. being the creator of your little. tornado. >> And it just like, you know what I mean? It's just like, >> wait, wait. I have something this. [clears throat]. having hearing your list Eugene talk. reminds me of this thing I've been. thinking about which is that you've.

talked now on several occasions about. your grandfather right so part this is a. two-part theory. >> part one of the theory is all of us. explain who we are but with some. reference to our families right it's a. common thing yeah. >> but I've noticed that when. >> people do this they always pick one. So you never hear someone say I rarely I. get this from my mom and this is from my. dad. What what you get is when they're. talking about something say oh yeah that. comes from my father and they talk.

father father father father father. father father father father father. father father father father father. father father father father father. father father father father father. father father father father father. father father father father father. father father father father father. father and you come back to them five. years later and they're like mom mom mom. and the dad's disappeared. You can't do. both at the same time. >> No. >> no you can't. So [laughter] and then. part two of the series. So I thought of. this for a while and then because I was. noticing it was so I this is the the. theory of asymmetrical parental. attribution. You can only do one theory. of asymmetrical parental attribution. You can only do one parent at a time. >> But then I [clears throat] decided, no, no, no, don't like that theory anymore. >> Then I decided, >> well, you just decided randomly. >> Yeah. I kicked the theory out of.

[laughter] the theory box. And I decided. I think the mistake we make, I don't. think parents, this is why this is. coming back to it, right? >> I don't think parents are the right. place to make sense of someone. I think. grandparents are. In other words, if I. were if I had never met you, either you. before and you sat down and I gave. myself 10 minutes to get to the essence. of you psychologically and I had a. choice. I could have you talk only about. your parents or I could have you talk. only about your grandparents. My point.

is. >> the grandparents is a far more. revvelatory. conversation because there's so much. noise with your relationship with your. parents. There's so you're blind to it. You It's complicated for all kinds of. other reasons. there's siblings in the. mix. It you can't figure it all out. But. if I get you to talk about your. grandparents, there's a kind of purity. in the way we see our grandparents. And. when I think about my. uh I can locate myself way more easily. in my grandparents than my parents.

>> And I think of my kids and I can locate. them much more easily in their in my. parents and and my wife's parents than I. can in us. And I I I I think. grandparents because we sort of gotten. this would have been a hundred years. ago. >> Yeah. >> This would have been common place. because we were living with our. grandparents and we had but now it's. like a harder thing to grasp because. they're not they're absent in a way they. weren't uh before. >> But um. >> do you think perhaps maybe that's why. they're called grand?

>> Yeah, that's right. That's right. Yeah, they are grand. They are. >> like the ultimate of parents, the. pinnacle of parents. But I mean I but I. just loved that you were talking so much. about your grandfather because it's it's. it's rare that not rare but it's people. don't spend enough time I think talking. about that layer of their heritage. >> I think mostly sometime that's very. you're good. Have you thought of writing. a book? [laughter]. >> You this is not a profound life as an. author you would [laughter].

just random observation but now I'm. curious you know does that. >> you so right. Does that make sense to. you? >> It makes 100% sense. It it. >> you're right when you say it's the noise. between yourself and the parents. And. also. >> there's no one greater than your parents. at the time that your parents are in. your life. >> So people who have um enriching. childhoods, which is what I had up until. the age of six was when my grandparents. were around because it almost. >> allowed me to see my parents as children. as well. Uh yeah, >> cuz they had someone older who could.

tell them you don't do that because. disciplining was not a thing when my. grandparents were around. I would get. away with so much more. But then when my. grandparents passed away. >> Mhm. >> my parents almost had to step in to. become the parents and they became the. villains of the story. Don't do this, don't do that. And also you miss the. person that let you get away with so. much more. And I had to pick in my. memory the past that I remember the. most, you know, sitting under the table. My grandfather used to be like, you're. going to end up on TV one day. And I was. like, why? Because when I was five or. six, we got our first television.

[clears throat] set. The news would play. in English and he would say, "Watch what. my grandson is going to do." Then he. say, "Tell us what they said there.". Then I would just listen listen and I'll. be like, >> "Wait, would you say it back in English. or would you say back in?". >> So you would translate it. You see this. is what you see. I didn't even know. that. But there you go. >> Then he said, "You are going to end up. on television one day." And my mom held. on to that forever and ever and ever. She used to say it over and over again. and it happened. So, I remember those. little moments and I'm like, >> "So, not only what's interesting is not. only do you see your grandparents more.

clearly than your parents, but your. grandparents maybe saw you more clearly. than [sighs]. >> uh than your parents did. They also. because in that it goes in both. directions because they don't have the. clutter either apparently. There's so. much now that I'm a parent. >> Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. You can't. just gladwell us and floss through that. [laughter]. >> There's so much clutter. When I look at. even my own kids, there's so much in the. way of seeing them clearly. There's so. many so much crap you bring to that. relationship with your with your kids.

like that is irrelevant to who they are. You're so intent on turning them into. versions of yourself that you forget. they're they'll they're not never will. be. But the grandparent is free of that. They're they they get to see the kid for. who they are, right? That was I remember. that. I knew I knew my um I didn't know. my my my grandparents all died before I. was. uh and they were always living in other. countries. >> but I always felt that they there was a. kind of clarity in the way they saw me.

and it was yeah it was like an. uncomplicated. um. >> is there a part of you that wishes you. had your kids sooner in life so that. they could have had%. >> I mean it's biggest biggest mistake. >> really. >> I made was not was waiting so long but. on the other hand I'm chiller than I. would have been. I I find parenting to. be completely unstressful. I think it's. because I'm older. I I find it hilarious. when they act up. I find it and I also. let them do whatever they want. >> So you in a way you are the grandparent.

>> I am the permissive grandparent. There's. no question about that. Yeah, >> that is amazing. >> And you know the maybe that has. consequences. Who knows? I won't be. around for them. >> I'm kidding. [laughter]. >> Wait. So, so, so, so who is your. favorite kids character? >> Who's your favorite kid? I was like, oh. my god. [laughter] What? >> No, I wouldn't do that. How dare you? I. wouldn't do that. You can't know this. soon. You'll know, but not this. [laughter] soon. >> Have you decided yet? >> Do I have I I'm struggling with this. one. I don't.

>> That's what I'm saying. Don't think. Just There's got to be one that makes. you happy inside cuz you've watched. them. You've watched Peppa Pig. You've. watched. >> It's Peppa Pig's grandfather is. hilarious to me because. >> Peppa Pig has a grandfather. Yeah. He's. so funny because he's just like he is so. there's a certain kind of that's my you. know my. >> my father's family. I feel like they. were a hundred people like Peppa Pig's. father and Peppa Pig's grandfather. [laughter]. It is just like takes me back to going. to England as a kid and like they're all. that way and they have that they capture.

that really beautiful thing about kind. of the way the English speak which is. they love being vague about everything. >> I'll just have a spot of tea. >> Yes. >> Right. What's a spot? We're not going to. It's not a cup. Is. that No. No. Specifying anything. And. everything is like in this kind of vague. like euphemistic language. That's what I. listen to as a kid. And I just love it. I just think it's it's fantastic. >> When you hear that, it just like takes. you back to that. >> Takes you back. My dad would do that. My. dad was was um uh incredibly.

delightfully inarticulate. Just couldn't. >> inarticulate. >> Inarticulate. Like which is why I was so. obsessed with expressing myself because. I've said this many times. If you live. with a father who is completely. inarticulate, what do you do? I spend my. entire time as he's speaking as a kid. like rewriting the words in my head. No, no, no, don't say that. What you mean is. this. You should say this. Like, come on. out with it. What you mean? The words. you're looking for is this. This is. what's going on in my head as a kid, but. don't listen to him. And he wasn't he's.

incredibly smart man but just like not. interested in mastering you know tell a. joke and would. >> he the first time he took my mother on a. date. >> they go to some big you know student. thing at the un at university college in. London. >> and he stands up to tell a joke and he. forgets the punchline and my mother this. is a first date my mother's sitting. there she's like who what what just. happened [laughter]. this guy takes me out this white guy. first of There's a white guy [laughter].

takes me out. By the way, my father, my. mother was a twin and her twin. >> identical twin. >> identical twin went to the same UC UCL a. year before and my father asked my. mother's sister out who turned him down. but said my sister is coming. >> That is hilarious. >> So you imagine the psychological kind of. circumstances of my mother. So, not only. is she like, I think he might prefer my. twin, A, and B, he's just made a fool of. himself in front of like a hundred of. his [laughter] Anyway, they were happily. married for.

>> for how many years? >> 50, whatever, 60 years. >> That's beautiful. >> Was it weird having a mom who has a. twin? I could imagine the mischief, the. gentle would get up to. >> Well, but why do you think that? >> Because I would have someone who looks. like my mom but doesn't behave like my. mom. You know how many times I'd wish my. mom had a twin Jane life or my aunt. would come over and rescue me? >> Well, you were going to like use your. mom for shenan like your mom's sister. for shenanigans. >> Don't use moms. >> You were going and mom were talking. about why we use [laughter].

>> it's not that generation that's. interesting. It's the next generation. So your mom's. >> twin sister's children are your half. siblings genetically. >> Yes. So that's interesting. >> Oh jeez. >> Right. >> Oh, I've never thought of that. Actually, >> share the same mom. >> Mhm. [clears throat]. >> Oh jeez. >> All of my. They're first cousins who are actually. half siblings. And it's just really. interesting. I There's a kind of comfort.

level that you would have with a. sibling. Yeah. But it's a first cousin. >> But how different was your mom from your. aunt? >> My mom is. >> or your aunt. They looked exactly the same to the. point where and they did that thing. My. aunt was living in Jamaica, my mom in. Canada and they would independently. and without telling each other wear the. same clothes, change their hairstyles. >> We were talking about this the other. day. This is so wild. >> Freaky twin thing that happens. So they. always looked identical. So I would.

mistake them. Um, >> you yourself. >> and then my we would go to Jamaica to. visit and my mother would drive around. with my father and everyone in the. little town would think that my aunt was. stepping out with a strange wife. >> Oh man. [laughter]. >> Oh man, who was in articulate AND WHO COULDN'T. FIND THE PIPELINE WAS LIKE THAT'S HIM. >> wearing a suit and tie like you know an. English guy with a big beard. Um, and. then uh explain yourself. [laughter]. And he's like, well, it appears there's.

quite an unfortunate uh coming. [laughter] together of uh stories that. uh might confuse two uh people or groups. rather who think that ah you're dead. No, no, it's lovely. But my [laughter]. but my grand but but the other flip side. of it is that my mom's twin sister. marries a Jamaican guy but who is. basically my father. So they. >> no ways heard of that happen Jamaican. version of your English. >> They find they find which makes sense. They're the same person. So they they.

find they're exact. In fact, my father. and my uncle knew each other before and. my uncle was actively pursu successfully. pursued my but they looked the same. They were they had the same interests. They it was the whole thing is just. uncanny. >> In the closer culture, if there's a. twin, one must lose part of their pinky. so people can identify them easily. >> God damn. >> Yeah. They must cut part of their pinky. >> The brutal version. >> But there are other cultures, I'm not.

sure which one it is in South Africa. where if you marry one twin, you have to. marry the other. >> Because chances of the other one being. happy without the other are very low. >> unless they meet someone who's like you. >> Yeah. So you have to do polygamy that. way to keep them together and to keep. the other one from making another man. miserable. So the fact that your aunt. married someone similar to your dad and. your dad almost dated her first is the. only reason she has her pinky. [laughter]. >> Don't press [music] anything. We've got.

more what now after this. >> [music]. >> You know, the thing you're talking about. about um like us taking the the the. articulate thing with um with your dad. >> I've always wondered. there's a I've always I've always wanted. to learn or I've tried to learn about. like astrophysics and it's so. complicated and math throws me I it's.

too much for my brain but I like to try. and learn about it. >> And one of the more interesting ideas. for me is entropy, right? the idea that. everything energy-wise is always trying. to get to a state of sort of like middle. is the best way to describe it in my. brain. >> And. when you say that, I I always wonder if. that's all we're doing as like species. and and humans and is people don't. realize that their kids are supposed to.

sort of like balance them out. So if you. are loud and crazy, there's a good. chance your kid might be like really. quiet, especially you have like one kid, they might be like really quiet and. timid and then if you are inarticulate, your kid is going to be extremely. precise and good and and a wordssmith. And do you know I even wondered that. with uh I wondered if CO was the. ultimate natural experiment, which I. know you love by the way, just natural. experiments. >> Not CO. >> What do you mean? No, not CO natural. experiment. No, because because what CO. did. >> in some ways CO showed us that the human.

experiment has been successful. >> in that one thing could not wipe us all. out. >> Yes. >> Mhm. >> Some people died very quickly. Some. people didn't even get a sniff. >> and we don't really know why. You know, there's obviously things people like. co-orbidities and weight and age. Yeah. But once you remove that, there's some. instances where people just they were. just gone. and then others on the. opposite end of the spectrum with and. then the middle people got sick and. whatever. And I was thinking about that. going. >> it's like this fascinating beautiful.

>> sort of like um hedging of our bets that. we do as a as a species. >> Yeah. >> Where you're supposed to be a little bit. different. Try this version. Try that. version. And then if you have multiple. kids, they must all try a different. version, different version so that the. species has the best chance of. surviving. Do you know what I mean? Like. I've always wondered that as like a. >> it's the great for your it's one of the. great puzzles in psychology. >> was trying to figure out [clears throat]. and it goes exactly to your point. >> Why are siblings so different because. they shouldn't be different.

>> Yeah. >> They have same parents, same genes, same. same home environment, same but they're. like wildly different, right? >> And that is it's because Yeah. The. impulse is to differentiate, not to is. to take the exact same experience and. interpret it. >> in radically different ways. And I see. it already with my two daughters. Like. the the younger one is fashioning from. exactly the same environment is. fashioning a completely different. experience for herself. >> Yeah. It's nature versus nurture. >> Yeah. But even beyond that, it's it's a. safety mechanism. >> Mhm. [laughter].

>> One of the one of the rabbit holes I've. been, you know, going deeper and deeper. into over the past few years has been. has been like monopolies and. consolidation. >> I'm obsessed by it. And I'm obsessed by. it because we we were never really. taught about the effects. Like most. people in society, if you go monopolies, they be like, I guess it's bad because. we're told it's bad. But for most of us, if you say like why is it bad, they we. don't really know like why, you know, someone might be like, oh, prices and. whatever. One of the best examples of.

why it's bad sort of ties into this is. in America and in many parts of of the. world now if one species of chicken gets. sick. >> okay they are. >> they could all go they could all go. >> monocultures. Yeah. >> Yeah. Exactly. Like there's one family. in Germany I think or something that. owns I think it's a type of egg but it's. like it's basically the egg if that. makes sense. Mhm. >> And if something goes wrong with that.

egg or if there's a disease that affects. that strain of chicken and that species. of. >> gone. Yeah. >> Yeah. But it's gone. >> This is the story in in my last book. Uh. I told that story about the cheetahs. The cheetahs. There was an extinction. event for cheetahs like whatever. thousand years ago. And we. [clears throat] think that the cheetah. population of the world might have got. down to one. >> What? It might have been one mother. >> who one pregnant mother who survived and. that's why every cheetah today is.

genetically identical which is why. cheetahs have such incredible disease. you know. >> yeah they're struggling even now. [clears throat]. >> oh my god they're so prone to disease. really really hard to keep cheetahs. alive in captivity because even minor. infections will just there's certain. kinds of minor infections which that. particular cheetah type yes just happens. to be susceptible to and so they're all. susceptible to it so there's a kind of. corona virus that um normally normally. animals shug off shrug off but it's. fatal to cheetahs and we had a huge.

problem a couple years ago with keeping. but in the wild too cheetahs are like. they're sickly and they're it's because. they're all the same and they're their. sperm is degraded. It's just cousins b m. mating with cousins over and over and. over and over and over and over again. um they're so identical like that you. can do, you know, when you do a skin. graft. >> Um the reason they figured this out was. they were puzzled by why cheetahs were. getting so sick in zoos. And so they did. a simple skin graft where they took two. cheetahs, different cheetahs, and they.

just took skin from one and grafted onto. the other. And under normal. circumstances, the skin would the graft. would be rejected. >> Oh, rejected. >> because it's different. Like you can't. take slap on a graph someone. >> you have to give them all kinds of. immunosuppressive drugs, right? No. problem. H. >> the other cheetah just accepted the. graft and they realize, oh my god, they're twins. >> and it's like they're all twins. Cheetahs. >> It's just like it's just one family. >> It's just one big cheetah family. But. those are those are and I I use that in.

that book because I was describing I was. writing about this community, this. little wealthy town um called which is. known as Papa to grow. I don't give its. real name that had a suicide epidemic at. the high school local that went on for. years a very serious one. >> and my argument the argument in the book. and the argument of the researchers who. studied it was that the problem was that. the community had become a monoculture. the kids were all the same they're all. pursuing the same goals they all wanted. to go to Ivy League schools be. attractive play sports work really hard.

win their parents approval and that's. not normal for adolescence the normal In. a normal high school, there's 10. different social groups, each of which. have different goals. And if you fail at. one group, you just slide into another. There's always a home for you, right? >> Yeah. >> And if you didn't, in this high school, if you didn't fit this perfect model, the one perfect model, then you were. considered to be a failure, right? And. that's how the suicide epidemic got. started. All these kids, >> they just eliminate themselves because.

they didn't fit into the. >> thinking that I'm not I can't live up to. this standard, right? We so in the. pursuit of excellence and everyone would. agree this is a f one of the greatest. high schools public high schools in. America one of the loveliest places to. live in America there was this disaster. because they forgot how incredibly. important this kind of diversity that. you're talking about is to successfully. functioning societies you can't have. especially teenagers you can't put a. teenager into a system where there's.

only one model of success. >> I think we're experiencing that with. everything And it it's. so one of the. you know sometimes in life you'll have. an experience that isn't necessarily. special but it has an outsiz effect on. you. >> One of those was a trip that I I took. was my first time ever going to Paris. It was like a few years ago, you know, it's pretty late in life if you can. travel. >> And I went to Paris and it was this. whole thing. And. >> what I found most interesting about.

France's history was how they. imperfectly but but still in a in a. really beautiful way sought to encourage. the idea of the difference. >> like and and what the reason it stuck. with me is because it was like art. They. were they were like if you're an artist, you have a you have a purpose. The. French government would pay you to just. make art. Just make it. Good or not. good, we'll decide later. Your job is to. make art and then the government will. buy it and then we'll go from there.

Sculptures, you name it. You name. sometimes it was music sometimes. And. what I what I kept thinking was what is. going to happen to our society if we. allow it to get to a place where the. only way we measure success is one. metric. >> What is what is going to happen to our. society when every kid wants to be the. same thing? Because the only way we. measure success is through money or. through a certain type of power. And so. no one wants to be a teacher. No one. wants to be a nurse. No one wants to be. do you know what I mean? Like what what. happens when that becomes a homogeneous.

society? Does it mean we then lose our. edge? Like when we're all the surgeon. >> or when we're all the accountant or when. we're like what happens to us? That's. what I. >> And when you put it that way, I go like, "Oh, yeah.". >> Yeah. >> We lose our edge. >> Yeah. No, I mean there there are still I. mean thankfully there are professions I. I do this thing as part of my kind of. job where uh I find people who I think. are interesting and I just interview. them.

um sometimes for 20 30 hours until I. find the story. I did this last summer. with this incredible woman. I'm doing it. right now with this um. with this anesthesia this Canadian. anesthesiologist. from Atlanta. who is the most I love this guy so much. He he looks like a he's so handsome. first of all and I realize that's not. relevant but it is it is kind of. relevant and he is. >> we don't judge. >> he [laughter] has and he is he is in so.

articulate that that sometimes I'm. listening to him and I'm just like I I. can't improve on this this is. >> you know because I'm used to having the. voice in the head that for my dad and he. he just expresses himself so beautifully. and. >> um. he just everything I It's perfection. In. another era, he would be a famous rabbi. or a the you know he but now he's a. doctor. He's an anesthes he's an. intensive care specialist and he.

describes his and what I'm really. interested in is just I want to know. what his life is like. What is it like? He goes into intensive care for seven. shifts of seven days where he's on. basically and he it's the most intensive. care is the hardest and most. intellectually demanding he says and I. think I agree with him of this medical. specialties. >> and you f you have someone who is in. real trouble and you are locked in. >> for your seven-day stretch with that.

person and his and the reason I'm saying. this all his metric of success is. incredibly specific. and is outside all these I know. I'm sure he cares about money like all. of us but like if he wanted to make. money this is a dude who could have made. 10x on Wall Street right he he could. have been famous I'm quite sure if he. wanted he's never going to be famous. he's a doctor at a research hospital in. Atlanta like he his the thing that he.

uses to judge his contribution to. society is is the degree of kind of. intellectual and physical effort he puts. into keeping someone alive during his. seven days on. >> Right. And as long as there are. professions like that that allow people. to have their own very specific. definition of success. >> Yeah. >> We're okay. >> as as long as they exist. >> Yeah. Now, will they always exist? But. there there are these little pockets.

where you know I. I must say something incredibly macorbid. which is doom because yes, [laughter]. how do you say that word again? Doom. sto. >> So s tu feels like a. >> s. >> Okay. Like a drum like a big drum being. >> Yeah. And then it and then the drum. releases. Oh, sad dumboo. >> Ah, there you go. >> Okay. All right. [laughter] Right. Okay.

Sadu. >> My So, my mother is 94 and I've been. thinking because I can't help myself. >> I've been thinking about her obituary, >> right? >> Right. She's not She's a long way from. dying. Knock on wood. And but she talks. about, you know, so I I she was talking. about her what she wanted to be. cremated. I was like, why are you doing. this anyway? So, I s what would I what. would I say? Many many many people will. come to my mom's funeral. So, what would. I say? Cuz it's going to, you know, I'm. going to have to and I and one of the. things I want to say in about her and.

her life is that she's someone who lived. a small life. >> Meaning that she could have lived a big. life. She could have she could have been. famous. She could have made a lot of. money. Brilliant, driven, ambitious, you. know, woman. She chose instead to define. her life much like that doctor I was. talking about. She's someone who her. whole life is a series of relationships. in which she. >> has taken care of people or. >> been important to people for decades.

And there are now, you know, countless people who have been. in contact with my mother in an intimate. way going back 50, 60 years. I remember. as a kid there would be people coming. into our living room who I'd never seen. before just to sit with my mother and. share and I would listen to these. conversations very personal things about. the things that's her life that's what. the way she chose and she so she chose. to live a small life and the idea of.

valorizing the small life. is I think really important and it a. society that that that loses sight of. uh the in many ways the contribution of. the people who live small lives is. greater than the contribution of people. who live big big lives. uh society doesn't work without like. that that layer, right? So that's what I. I've been thinking about. That's what I. would like to say is I by choice she.

lived a small life and it was she's not. dead. It's horrible. Why am I doing. this? But that's what I would like to. say. That's her about her. That's her. legacy, I think. And it's really. beautiful one. Um and it's not done. She's still. doing that thing only in a nursing home. in rural Ontario, >> right? >> I think what what you speak about is. >> what a lot of people crave now. >> The simplicity of life as well.

>> Yeah. >> You know, sometimes we like, no, we want. it organic. >> You know, I want that real small farmer. that makes those, you know, if it's not. in season, then I will not have it. I. think ultimately inside with all the. conveniences that we have now and all. the abundance that we have now, we still. crave to forage. We want to go and find. out. We want to sit for 30 hours with a. human being and just hear what they have. to say and go through the weeds until we. find the treasure, you know. And I find. that with great friendships, that's what. friendships are about. We were we're.

having this conversation about how to. approach anything, whether it's an. episode or comedy, and we're saying that. if you're not willing to go and whack. the weeds until you found the Garden of. Eden, then you've just lost what he. likes to call the friction of life. >> Yeah. >> It's But it's it's the small I I like. the poetry that you've expressed it. with. >> Me. >> because No, Malcolm. Oh, >> yeah. Yeah. Yours as well. Yours as well. Yours as. well. Definitely. [laughter] No, but but. I mean No, but I mean in talking about. your mom specifically because like. There's a beautiful to to go back to.

football. Sorry, Eugene. >> No, no, >> but to go back to football. >> One of my favorite things about about. Liverpool. >> Yeah. >> Is how many opposing players and teams. will say, >> "Man, you don't want to play at Anfield.". >> And they don't just mean you don't want. to play the away game. They often refer to the fact that the. fans are a 12th player on the field.

>> and Mikuel Arteta, the coach of um. Arsenal who used to be I mean one of. he's one of the best players who's. played the game talks about his playing. days and they asked him about where to. play and what was tough and he he he has. the story where he he recounts how tough. going to Anfield was and what made me. brilliant was that he could see the. whole game. He could always see where. players were. He was that kind of. player, you know, he's the point guard. in that way. >> And he says when he went to Anfield, the. fans would start singing, the fans would.

start chanting, and he says you would. lose your teammates. >> Yes. >> He said you would just lose them. You'd. be like, "I'm I'm alone." He'd be like, "Wait, where's everyone?". >> Yeah. >> Where? >> And in that, what I I think that's. another thing that I loved about. Liverpool, and I think a lot of football. fans will have this with their teams. generally. if if it's a great team and. great fans is. >> there's a beautiful synergy between the. big and the small. >> Every football player, every basketball. player, every doesn't matter what.

athlete they are, they will tell you. that when they had to perform their. sport with nobody around, there wasn't a. thing. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. You could hit the ball, yeah, you. could shoot. Yeah, you could jump. Wasn't the same. >> Mhm. But the the the little people, they were. doing the biggest thing. It's just that. we sometimes don't see it that way. because of how we like aim the lens. Does that make sense? >> Yes. >> Like the fans are making to your point, English football, >> one of the reasons I think it is the. biggest of the leagues in the world. The.

biggest is because of the fans. It's. because of what they make it. It's. because of what they Yeah, there's. people playing football all around the. world. There's people kicking that. soccer ball, doing their thing. But like. that that that little and that's what I. mean by the valuing. I love that you. said that because I. >> not to be ominous about it, but I just. worry that we'll get to a place where. there is no valuing. There is no, >> you know, I do I do think of like as a. child I love how many fights kids used.

to have in my school when we're talking. about what do you want to be? Lots of. fights. What do you want to be? I want. to be this. I'm going to be a fire. truck. I'm going to drive a fire. There was this idea that society had. that like all of these avenues can. provide you with a value. >> that is valorous in its in its pursuit. And then like now, and it's not the kids. fault, >> but a lot of the kids, you go, "What do. you want to be?" And they be like, "Famous, >> rich, >> rich.". >> And I'm like, "What are what are we. showing them and teaching them?" Because. rich and famous is a byproduct of doing.

a thing. Well, I often think, >> but they aren't aiming for that. Often. times they'll go like, "Famous, rich, what?" And then a person who's in that. position has be like, "Oh, but what of. that do you want? What of that are you. looking for? What of that?" You know. what I mean? >> Yeah. And so I like I would love to know. like with your with your girls, do you. have a preconceived notion? How how do. you think you're going to do it? Are you. like are you already going, "Oh, I I. hope they would be this or not." Or are. you seeing things in them where Cuz I'm. sure you can't you can't like resist it. But is there something where you go um. with my girls I'm doing.

>> the thing that I swore I would not, which is that I all I I'm obsessed with. um how well they'll do at sports. >> and will they'll be good runners. And so. I spent a lot of time scrutinizing their. running form. [laughter] And I took my. I've decided my little one, who is super focused and who, by the. way, is ripped. I mean, it's a horrible. thing to say about a 2-year-old, but I'm. sorry. She is ripped. I've never seen Oh. my god. I've never seen a child like. this. She looks like she This is And she.

loves like lifting heavy things and. she's super kind of disciplined. And I. we took her to the track and she got in. her lane and ran the she ran 200 meters. in her lane at two and stayed in the. there was lane discipline and she ran. the curve hard and eased up on the. straight. I mean, it was like. >> instinctually it was it was the single. greatest moment of of my of my brief uh. parenthood career. Um [laughter] so all.

that's all I care about. Um, do they, you know, because you know, if you're. running, you want to be a forefoot. striker. You want, you should land on. the front of your foot. >> Yes. So, you can. >> So, I've been looking very closely to. make sure, are they natural foroot. strikers? They are. And, um, and I'm. trying to make sense of, you know, are. they quarter mileers, half mileers, or. distance? [laughter] You know, that's an. important thing because I got to focus. and I'm terrified they're going to be. good at the sports I don't want them to. play. >> like pickle ball. >> Tennis. Well, tennis. I don't want the. time suck sports.

This is the big mistake everyone makes. Swimming, uh, tennis, uh, gymnastics, uh, uh, any of these things that require. tons of travel and like six-hour. practices. Okay. No, you destroy their. childhood. All right. >> Why are you doing that? >> Soccer, fine. I'd accept soccer because. I think it would be fun to play, but I. really I mean, track's perfect. It's. just ideal. It's like one hour a day.

It's like fun hanging out with other. >> runners. >> Runners. That's what I want for them. So, that's all I do is I think about uh. their running form. Really, [laughter]. >> I love that you admitted. You're like, I. turned into what I promised everything I. want. >> I have become everything. [laughter]. >> Actually, this is something I wanted to. ask you. So, the the the podcast thing that you did. talking about like trans women in. sports. >> Oh god. Oh my god. >> Yes. Oh god. You should put your hand on. your head. How ripped were they?

[snorts]. >> Because so talk [laughter] talk me. through this a little bit cuz I like you. as a person. I love your writing and I. know I think I know you as like the let. me call you the artist separate from. like the the human. But when I was. watching this I even said to Eugene I. was like this is like the least gladian. way to handle a situation. I was just. like and then I was like do you think. like this now because you have. daughters? Do you do you think it shaped. you? Explain to me what happened there. Did people get something wrong? Tell me. tell me what happened there. Four years. ago, five years ago, there was a pan,

there's a sports conference, happens. every year. >> Yeah. >> Sports analytics conference. They were. gonna have a panel on trans. participation in sports. And they said, "Do you want to be the. moderator of the panel?" Now, right there, any intelligent person. would have said, "Of course not.". There's zero upside to moderate. >> This is a landmine. >> It's a landmine. What does Malcolm say? Yeah, sure. So I'm the moderator of the. panel and there's a guy named a South. African Ross Stucker is is a sports. scientist who believes very strongly.

that trans women should not participate. in the female category. And there are. two Joanna Harper and another people who. are arguing the opposite side. I'm the. moderator. >> and they tell me beforehand, do not get. us in trouble. Whatever you do, just. like get through this. I was like all. right through this. So I sit there and. the audience is like split in half. Half. or so whenever one side says something. they go the other side says something. they go. It's just a mindfield and I'm. sitting like what did I get myself into?

So we managed there's a moment in this. conversation when. Joanna Harper, one of the one of the. pros pro participation people says. something which would have been you know. when you're interviewing someone and. there's a there are moments when someone. says something which is an opportunity. to jump in and like. >> it gets to the heart of the matter. >> Yeah. Yeah. Okay. >> She said something that got to the heart. of the matter and my instinct as a. journalist was to say oh this is the. moment this is what people were this is. And I sat and I said, "Man, like I said,

it's it's too complicated. I don't The. crowd's nuts. I sit on my hands. Nothing. happens.". >> Do you remember what she said? >> Yes. She said to Ross Tucker, "Ross, you. have to let us win." And what she meant. was she was conceding the point that. uh trans women have a genetic advantage. over biological women. Uh trans women. have a biological genetic advantage over. biological women. And but what she was. saying was that's not the issue here. >> The issue is it's a broader symbolic.

thing for. >> okay. >> and it crystallized the whole argument. because it was why the argument can't be. won. >> because they're both after different. things. One side are people who are. trying to protect the purity of women's. sport as they would say and the other. side is someone who's trying to make a. human rights argument about a. disadvantaged group. This two arguments. they're never ever going to meet. And in. that moment when she said that it. crystallized why this was an impossible. problem to resolve. I my inclination in.

that moment was to say oh I could have. jumped on that and we could have had we. could have we could have ex I could have. used this to explain the fact that this. is an irresolvable argument. >> I don't say anything. >> Fast forward four years. Ross Tucker who. has out of his place in Johannesburg has. this podcast which is listened to by a. very very small number of people. It's a. super f it's my favorite podcast. Super. fascinating nerdy podcast about the. science of sport. Lots of rugby talk, lots of you know he did a whole episode.

once on shoes which was amazing. So I'm. on Ross's thing and I say in minute we. have we spend 45 seconds reminiscing. about this panel and I say to Ross, you. know, that moment I really should have I. regret not that would have been an. incredible moment to jump in and then we. go on and talk about other things and. then I wake up and I'm like. I don't know what happened. I they did five minutes on me on on the. on Sean Hannity. I was you were. everywhere. >> I was everywhere. >> No, you were everywhere.

>> I and I had no idea what happened. I was. like, "What just what's going on here?". >> Yeah, I know. You were everywhere. >> JK Rowling like tweets at one point. like, >> "Oh my goodness." And I I was just. paralyzed. I was like, I nothing. I was. reading all the stuff that was saying I. said stuff they didn't say. People are. going nuts about it and I was like, "Oh. Jesus." So I just shut up. You know, every every time I see that. happen, there's like a like a thing inside me. that like does like a, you know,

>> because there's a. there's a specific knowledge you have. about how these situations unfold if. you've been a part of it. >> Yeah. >> You know what I mean? I've experienced. this before where literally like I've. woken up and half of the world has an. opinion of me. Then I'm like, wait, what. did I say? Where? And then it expands. beyond what you've ever said or what. you've ever done. And by the time, and. it's that old Churchill quote, right, that uh a lie is halfway around the. world before the truth has a chance to. put its pants on. >> Yeah. >> You helpless is a perfect world. Could.

you just sit there going like, "Wait, what?" No. No. And and it expands and it. goes and it goes and it grows and it. grows and it grows and it grows and then. now people are using it to say, you. know, like people who are very. anti-trans are like, "Ah, you see, >> he agrees.". >> Gladwell agrees. And not only does he. agree, he shows you that he's terrified. of telling the truth. He's and I was. like Malcolm Gladwell was not terrified. of telling the truth. That's the. moderator on a panel. I mean and they. under strict instructions not to ruffle. any feathers and then made and didn't. think I was on Ross Tucker's I didn't.

think anyone would listen to Ross. Tucker's podcast other than people who. were [laughter] who were good for Ross. I mean I love Ross. He's I think he's. brilliant. Um, and I've been following. him for years, but um, I didn't think it. would be, uh, you know, who thought that. podcasts recorded in Johannesburg or. Cape Town. Um, by the way, this is my. this is Johannesburg, Cape Town. Can I. just pause on this for a moment? Just. subtly change the subject. [laughter]. There's this thing that always irks me, which is.

S. Paulo, Rio. >> Yes. >> Right. >> Sydney, Melbourne. >> Yes. Johannesburg, Cape Town. >> Yeah. >> In all these instances, people have this. urge to say, "Yeah, uh, Melbourne is New. York and Sydney's LA. S Paulo is LA and. Sal. Paulo is New York.". >> Yeah. Rio Rio is LA. S. Paulo is New. York. Or Johannesburg is New York and. Cape Town is LA. >> Cape Town is Cape Town is not LA. The.

only thing that LA has in common with. Cape Town is there's a beach and a lot. of rich white people. That's it. the. the the urge to make everything about. that's New York and that's that just. drives me to distraction. Have you never. is there no other way we can describe. these places? But. >> I think it's a is the word a heristic. Is that what it is? It's just like a. shortcut that people are using. >> It's but it's not a it's not even. they're only useful heruristics are. useful when they actually have some. basis in reality. In what universe would. you go to Johannesburg and say this. feels like New York to me? >> No, I'll tell you how. Okay, I'll tell.

you how. >> I will. Don't [laughter] you dare join. in with him. I'll tell you how. I'll. tell you how. So. >> I think what people mean by that is. >> that the the the the vibe and the energy. of the cities are generally defined in. one way versus another way. So okay, I'll give you an example. So. Johannesburg, New York, Sa Paulo, those. are like the hubs of business. That's. where the people consider life to be. fast. That's where there is no lounging. about. That's that's where there is no. chilling. That's where you know what I.

mean? There's this idea of like you come. here, you do business, you get things. going, you keep it moving. You got it. >> Rio, Cape Town, LA, Tranquilo. You know. what I mean? It's like a there's a. feeling of like beach vibes and chilling. and No, no, no. But it's all in relation. to the other. >> Oh, I see. >> And by the way, I'm not you're not crazy. for thinking this cuz I I feel like that. whenever people would say. >> it would always irk me when they would. go like, "It's the size of 20. elephants." Then I was like, "Hey man, stop doing this." But Americans love is. the size of five football fields.

>> Yeah. But I'm like, hey man, >> who's out here? >> So in that regard, I also I'm just like. I don't get why you use But I do. understand why people do it because. those cities, >> let's put it this way. >> Yeah. >> If you loved LA and you were leaving it, you had to leave. >> Yeah. >> And you were going to go live in. Johannesburg or Cape Town and you loved. everything about LA. >> Ah, >> you would be better off betting on Cape. Town. If you love Malibu, if you love.

Rio, >> you would be better off betting on. And. if you loved Sydney, you would that's. that's all I think it is. Even if it's. 5149. >> No, no, no. You would just there's just. a bet. You would have a better chance of. >> But this is I will I would just say that. this is a case where the heristic gets. in the way. >> effect. I like, like I like her when. they help us. >> cool. >> get over the hump and sort of all right. then we can go from there. But sometimes. they block us and they get in the way.

>> Yeah. >> And I feel like this is getting in the. way and like. >> what do you think it's getting in the. way of. >> it's getting in the way of appreciating. another culture for what it really is. >> So as opposed to saying what what's. offensive to me about this with. Johannesburg and Cape Town for example. So we're cuz you guys know these cities. very well is like these are the people. who use this heristic don't know. anything about this and I think in. expressing that heristic are creating an. obstacle to learning more. >> okay.

>> right it's like oh it's just New York is. a way of saying okay I've satisfied my. so I can go I'll see a couple sites and. I'll leave as opposed to really like. thinking in a. >> complicated and interesting way about. what is this is a city unlike any other. all these cities are unlike themselves. fundamentally and the the the the. biggest obstacle is outsiders coming in. and pretending they have an. understanding of something that they. have no understanding of. That's what I. object to. Like I don't pretend to.

understand Cape Town. I went there once. I all I know is lot of insane real. estate, right? And and a nice beach. >> and that hill that you walk up and down. >> and that hill that you walk up and down. [laughter]. But no, but you you know I the one thing. I don't want to let go of cuz I I think. you said something. >> that's nuanced, difficult, and in my. opinion very important. >> You said something about the. conversation that was happening on that. stage when people were talking about. trans women and sports.

>> And I think it's something that people. don't like to acknowledge. in many conversations that we have in. society. It's that people on two. different train tracks acting like. they're fighting about the same thing, but they're not actually. Yeah. >> Because I that the way the way you. framed it there, I was like, >> "Yeah, people are arguing across each. other." And so you can never reach a. conclusion if you're not arguing, >> but you're not arguing the same thing. >> It's irresolvable. It's irresolvable. It's like there's two competing values.

and you have to. >> pick which one in this moment you think. is more important. And if you're going. to pick one, then I think you have to. accommodate the interests of the other. side. Right? In other words, if you're. someone who thinks that trans women. should not participate in the female. category, you have to go out of your way. to be an advocate for all other aspects. of the trans agenda. >> Yes, >> that's your obligation. You're going to. you have to be able to say, "Okay, I am. I know that this is something that means. a lot to you. I I'm not going to back.

you on this, but I promise you I'll back. you on everything else." And the flip. side is also true. I think that if you. are someone who wants that kind of. participation, you have to go out of. your way to acknowledge the importance. that you're basically saying to people. who care a lot about sports and women's. sports in particular that I I'm asking. you to give up something here and I will. go I will bend over backwards to make. that sacrifice easier for you. There has. to be that accommodation. And like I. said, I don't there's no I you know I am.

my position on this is I acknowledge. both sides. It's really hard. I happen. to be a huge track and field fan. So, it's really hard for me to make the. sacrifice of giving up the female. category in that same way. But I also. understand that that's a problematic. position to hold particularly for a. group that is under that is imperiled. and and so you know my my answer is for. the moment because I also acknowledge. that my mind might change, right? I was. writing about Caster Semenya 10 years. ago and I had a a different position.

than I had now. um. >> how did it change. >> the science of people at that moment did. not understand the degree to which the. qu this is a technical question if I if. I she was she's not trans she's DSD so. she was interex. >> um the question was if I if you suppress. the the testosterone of someone in that. condition do you equal the playing do. you level the playing field with. biological women. >> there was a belief back then. >> that you could level the playing field.

Now the science seems to be that you. there's still a considerable. uh uh histo kind of historical. advantage. >> Yeah. >> That so it's more complicated, right? But all that side is it's super. complicated. All you can say is if. you're going to pick one side, you have. to accommodate the other. I think it, you know, for me where it lies is. I often find that we're stuck in these. situations and these conversations. because we allow ourselves to suffer.

from a lack of imagination. >> Mhm. >> And the reason I say that is because we. act like what is always was and will. always be. >> Yeah. >> Okay. So I look at people now arguing. hard the women's sports and and I go if. I was to rewind time and go back decades. and decades and decades I would argue. that those same people would be the ones. going women can't do sports women and. and we we would see that you know I mean. there was a time when women were stopped. from getting into sport like people were.

like no a woman can't box a woman can't. run a woman can't no no no no what do. you mean women's sports women's public. bathrooms that was the one that like. blew my mind the most was in America. People used to fight against women using. a public toilet. They were like, "No, you go. What are you doing? >> That's for the men. You go home. >> What are you doing?". >> Was that to stop them from not going too. far? >> No, it was just like this idea of like. it it just didn't make sense because of. the way things were. >> Same thing with black people. There was. a time when people were like,

>> "So, you're saying black people?" Quick. story. My my dad at some point ran like. a small little restaurant would be a. strong term. He cooked food for people. and they came and like ate at it was a. tiny little place in Johannesburg, just. outside of Johannesburg, actually. >> Um, and I asked him, I was like, "Oh, what happened to the place?" He's like, "Oh, it got shut down." I was like, "What happened?" He's like, "They shut. it down because I wanted to serve black. patrons and white patrons.". >> Then I immediately was like, "Ah, my. father the saint. H what a legend." Then.

he was like, "No, no, no. I don't care. about the race thing at all." He's like, "I don't care." He's like, "It just. didn't make sense to me." And he's a. very like he's Swiss German. He was. like, "This makes no sense. Black people. and white people eat the same things and. use the same cutlery and are the same. What are you doing? It's also terrible. for a business.". >> And what the apartite government wanted. is they wanted my father to build an. additional bathroom just for black. people because they were like, "White. people and black people should not use. the same bathroom. This is scient.". That's what they even said. It's. science. And then my dad was like, "No,

sorry. I'll I'd rather shut down the. restaurant cuz this is crazy to me.". Right? So he had his own reason which I. guess aligned with good but he was he. doesn't even accept it when I go that. was a good choice he's like no it just. doesn't make sense. Now when I come back. to the world of imagination I go if we. acknowledge that the things that are. weren't always then we acknowledge the. possibility that something new could be. right the parolympics as an example. >> I remember when the parolympics first. started like first first started people.

went this is crazy. >> and they changed their minds now. >> what now have you seen how big the. viewership is have you seen how big the. endorsements are you go to a a city or a. town when the paralympics is on the the. advertisements change there's major. campaigns it's no longer even cons it's. not a it just moves over to the. paralympics you get what I'm saying. >> and in the paralympics I found some of. the most creative thinking because. they went how do we to your point how do.

we find. a a a measure of fair in in in a thing. that we've also invented in terms of. fairness so they're like how how do you. say that a person missing a leg from the. knee down. >> Mhm. >> Who do they run against? Somebody with. the same thing. But what if that person. has no legs, but it's only from the the. hip or not from the hip or an eye or a. hand? And they were like, "You know. what? We're just going to work to figure. this thing out. We're just going to work. to figure this thing out because I think. they whoever was organizing this.

remembered the original idea of what the. sport was supposed to be. >> It was a competition between people. >> and they were participating in something. that we've imagined. >> It's not real, guys. like this is not do. you know what I mean it's not gravity. the rules and the lines that we draw in. a field. >> there's a wonderful uh quote to this. very point that sport is the uh willing. acceptance of arbitrary constraints. >> yes that's exactly it so here's here's. an example I I I was thinking of when I.

when I was going through this I went. we make it seem like in some sports it's. just man woman man woman right that's. But then in another sport, we'll go, "No, no, it's not just man, woman. It's. also age. A age is important." AJ, yes. The under the under 16 World Cup. >> Mhm. >> Oh, why do we have a different category. for Well, they're younger, so who says. they should get a different category, but we accept that. >> Mhm. >> Right. Boxing for me is probably one of. the craziest.

>> Well, that classes, >> guys, at some point, and you can clearly. see when people want to make. concessions, they'll make them. If you. think about it, technically boxing. should have just been you fight him, the. winner is the winner. And then at some. point, someone went, "Bro, I'm skinny, man. Come on. This is not fair. I can't. beat that guy." And they didn't go like, "Well, then you're out." They went, "All. right, right. We're going to make a. class. >> skinny to skinn. >> for these feather light people. You guys. who as light as feathers don't. >> I love that about boxing now. >> But that's but that's my but this is. what I'm trying to say. >> Running. No, but this is but this is.

what I'm trying to say is like imagine. we [laughter]. >> we have a sport where you can come in. weighing feathers all the way to heavy. weight. We've given and it's not one, it's not two, it's not three, it's not. four, it's not five. The weight. divisions do this, they do this, they do. this, and no one would say to you like. that's crazy. That's so many divisions. >> Yeah. >> I wonder why we never engaged in these. conversations. >> You know who the worst offenders are? the swimmers who they've just created a. sport to maximize the number of medals. they give out. There's like the 50 meter.

freestyle, the 100 meter freestyle. That's what I mean. It's arbitrary. It's. >> like it's like what they could have like. they're going to have before it's all. over like 10 different freestyles. The. 150. >> Can you do it like a butterfly? [laughter] Can you do I have a whole. standup bit about that where I'm just. like what is this? You're doing it less. efficiently and you get more medals. >> No one ever uses those strokes outside. of competition. That should tell you. something. >> You see? So now what I'm what I'm saying. about these conversations, >> you're being strangely quiet on the. question. >> No, no, no. But what I'm saying about. these things is [laughter]. we we forget I think we forget.

that everything exists in the time that. it exists and it becomes the norm. because that's what it is in any given. time. >> But if we stop imagining possibilities, >> then we're going to be tied to what is. now but not what could ever be. And so when I when that's funny enough. that's like when I it's I think that's. where you've influenced me in my life is. like like a glad well way to think I. always think is like yeah but but where. was it and what is it and what is it. trying to be.

>> the fundamental thing sports is trying. to be is fair however some sports if. we're honest are inherently unfair like. to use like the castin thing I remember. going people would say oh but she has an. unfair advantage I'll be like yeah so. does LeBron James if you are like 7 feet. tall you have an unfair advantage in. basketballm Mhm. >> We should ban you from the sport. You. know what I mean? >> If you are Michael Phelps, you have an. unfair advantage that your body doesn't. produce as much lactic acid. We should. ban you from the sport. But we don't. >> We celebrate those people cuz we go,

"You're a freak of nature. Well done.". But then when other people are the same. freak of nature, then all of a sudden, you know what I And so I I think that. that's like the thing that frustrates me. in some of these moments is I'm not. saying there's a right way and a wrong. way and a this way and a that way. >> But it's like yo man, if you can find a. way for more people to participate. >> and you can make it as fair as possible. like the UFC does, like boxing does, I. will fight. I will watch two skinny men. fighting and then I will watch two of.

the bulkiest men fighting or for that. matter in UFC. And I don't go like, "Yeah, this. >> you should have been the moderator of. this panel. You [laughter] You would. have survived much.". >> Jesus, what was I do you have a good. What was I thinking? >> But no, but I. >> No good deed goes unpunished. >> No, but I [laughter] actually think. that's what it is. >> That's what it is. I think I think in uh. in institutions mainly and which I think.

sports federations and sports. organization are big long institutions. that have institutional memory of how. things were done. >> Exactly. >> Two things will always alter the course. of any institution. It's either the. people dying out or commercialization. coming in. >> cuz I think when you add money there's. incentive now to accommodate and find. creative ways to extract money from. sponsors to sponsor the parolympics. You're not wrong. You have the same with. let's add more backstroke, side stroke, kickstroke, knee stroke. >> Yeah. Because they would get rid of it. if people stopped watching it and there.

was no money at they would be like all. right. >> Absolutely. And that's what people are. finding a problem with now with the. Olympics. People watch the Olympics and. go what am I watching? What is this? >> Because also it doesn't equal out. So. you see if every discipline that exists. in the Olympics right exists in the. parolympics then I would be sold if. there was if if there was shooting and. and for but with people with something. that they normally wouldn't have if they. were I would be I would be fully in but. when I feel like there's concessions.

being made and I'm like I'm not watching. the the full thing and that's the thing. that I find with soccer fans is they. watch male soccer. but then female Jokers are not real. Joker is not. They don't watch fully. You guys are not fully participant in. football. >> Yeah. But I think you're missing the. point. No, but. >> No, but I think you're missing the point. though. >> See, I think this is where I think. you're missing the point, >> right? >> There are some people like Joseph Opie, our friend, we had him on the podcast. He watches everything, everything, everything, everything, everything.

>> But you see, before you run to that and. you go like, "Oh, a football fan is. inconsistent because they watch men's. soccer, but they don't watch women's. soccer." I I also don't watch other. leagues. I don't watch the Turkish. league. They've got great teams, Galatasaray, Basiktas. They've got great. teams that I see in the Champions. League. I don't watch the Portuguese. league. I don't watch the Italian. league. Syria has had some of the. greatest champions that have ever. existed. I don't watch the Syria. I. don't watch the South African League. There's many leagues that I don't watch. So, I don't think we can quickly say, "Oh, you are you're not supporting. women's sport because you don't watch. that, but you also don't watch other.

leagues." Do you get what I'm saying? I. think the more important thing to ask. ourselves is why people are or aren't. allowed to just like be part of a thing. before we even get to commercialization. Cuz I'm not saying that everybody must. watch the same thing the same. But I'm. saying what I'm saying is if a skinny. ass man is allowed to be a boxer, a man. who weighs less than a bag of cement is. allowed to be a professional boxer, a. man that I can pick up and throw to the.

other side of the room. M. >> he'll beat me in a fight boxing, but I. can lift him. >> If that person gets accommodated, why. can we not accommodate a trans woman is. what I'm saying. >> That's all I'm saying. Because. >> I've never thought of boxing is the most. e egalitarian any human being can dream. of growing up and being a boxer. >> Can I tell you something? Golf is one of. the most egalitarian sports ever. invented. I know you hate it, but it's. one of the most egalitarian. >> I like golf courses. >> Of courses. Of course. [laughter] No. No. No. Like the PJ coming for you as if. you haven't been in enough trouble. I'm.

in [laughter] I'm in enough trouble. >> And you can speak your mind, Malcolm. You don't say that we scared you. You. can speak your mind. No, [laughter]. >> I look at golf. [snorts]. >> Golf has one of the craziest systems. ever invented, the handicap system, where you, as a golfer who has just. started, can go and play against. somebody who is a professional. >> and you can beat them on the same course. hitting the same ball. How did they do. that? They adjusted the scoring system.

to account for what your level is versus. what this other person's level is. >> It's beautiful. >> It's beautiful and it's imaginative. because what golf could have easily done. is said no how that's how it works. But. they realize in the strangest. egalitarian way which no one thinks of. as golf being cuz it's like the rich. sports etc. They went we want people to. be able to have as much fun as possible. >> playing with and against whoever. >> Yes. But there's a difference between. hitting something and hitting someone. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, but what I'm saying is. you can. >> a 19-year-old can hit a ball same as a.

65y old. >> Not true. >> But then No, I'm saying that it's a ball. that they're hitting. They're not. punching us faces. >> Yes. But what I'm saying is you can make. those. That's exactly what I mean by. accommodations. Why do we have a youth. division? Why do we have a senior's. division? Why did we even do that? I can. tell you now a senior's division did not. always exist in sports and then it did. >> Enter commercialization. But that's so. that's what I mean by imagination is I. go. >> if we think to ourselves that it stops. where we are currently in time. I don't. care what it is technology uh you know.

education I then I go like man then we. we've like we've become that homogeneous. society. We've become that high school. that all thinks the same way. >> Mhm. >> Like I go there is you you can find a. way if you believe that you can find a. way. I'm not saying it'll be easy. I'm. not saying it'll be obvious. But if you. say no, if your answer is no completely, then I'm like. >> no two skinny men fighting half men is. boxing. >> No. >> Yeah. But what I'm saying is what I'm. saying is. >> we can create a category where skinny.

men fight skinny men. >> Mhm. >> And that's what they've done. And so I. go then how are we and we can. >> Which category do you think we should. create now to solve everything else? >> Oh no. You see to lie and say that I. have the answer now? I don't have it. >> You know what I love about you? >> Your dimples one. And you're going to. say that [laughter]. where am I? >> Yeah. [laughter]. >> No, but I but that's that's ex that's. that's exactly what I mean is like I go. I don't but we to your point. >> we can't get there if we don't have the.

messy bumbling along discussion. >> this this season in the Premier League. I don't know about all the leagues. The. rules changed. >> right? Do you know how old football is. as a sport? But the rules changed now. They said if a goalkeeper holds the ball. for longer than 8 seconds, it's now a. corner kick. No way. Yeah. I didn't grow. up with those rules. >> 8 seconds. >> He acts like that's defined as changing. the game. He changes everything. >> 8 seconds. >> We're shaved off. 8 seconds from the.

hoging. >> Yes. >> Where? So that wasn't that wasn't a. thing before. >> That wasn't a thing before. >> So the goalkeeper was allowed. >> the goal goalkeeper could hold the ball. once they caught it. They could still do. that thing. Technically, you were just. supposed to get rid of it, but there was. no time. The ref would just be like, "You took too long." But they made it a. rule. Now, now I'm saying if an old. sport like football can still introduce. new rules in 2025, then I think all. sports can look at introducing ideas. that can include everyone. I don't think. a kid who has one leg. >> Yeah, let the kid run. Let's find a way.

for that kid to run. >> No, technically they [clears throat]. >> Yeah, but you can find a way for them to. run. >> Yeah, >> that's what that's what I'm saying is. magical for me. Uh there was this thing. I remember like you know I love video. games and um I remember when I was when. I was at Microsoft like I've worked with. them for a while like in you know the. hardware and all of that stuff. One of. my favorite things was helping them. think about like controllers that kids. with disabilities could use. And they. were showing me the stuff is like they'd. bring a kid in who has a disability and. the kid would go like I now use my feet.

to play Street Fighter which seems. ridiculous. It seems crazy. Mhm. >> And then you see them and you're like, damn, you know what I like in this. moment? You're a gamer and I'm a gamer. >> Yeah. >> The point of a controller wasn't that. you could only play a game with you at. hands. The point of a controller was. that it helped you to control something. that was happening on the screen. >> Yeah. >> And once we realized. >> like the moderator 5 years ago, >> you feel like Malcolm disability must be. outside playing with other children. >> Yeah. But when. >> Oh, they're finding ways to play more.

inside by themselves. But that's not the. No, they're not playing by themselves. Most of their kids are online. And now. if you're the only kid, >> other people other kids with. disabilities are online. >> What I'm saying is if you can't be. online with your friends who are online, you're now isolated. >> No, they changed the rules in a way that. allowed the person who previously had a. disability to no longer have a. disability. >> Yes. And so what I'm saying is if we are. going to live in a simplistic binary. world, so should trans women compete. with women? Then I'm like, why are you. making it seem like there's only two?

And I mean this honestly like as. categories. >> So you'd want to have a. >> because. this is how crazy it would be. Imagine. if you rewind time. There was someone. who said ah uh people who swim butterfly. shouldn't be able to swim with people. who and they were like yeah let's just. do butterfly category and a breaststroke. category. >> Why is it in your voiceovers people who. are stopping things sound boring and the. people that. >> because people who stop. >> let things happen like yeah. >> because people who stop things are. boring Eugene. That's why we got to. imagine, bro.

>> You've got to imagine. >> Yeah. >> Okay. Let's see. Let's imagine it. >> No, but. >> you have to stop saying that. >> Yeah, because that's. >> Yeah, but let's imagine. >> Do you know why Disney movies? >> It all comes back. >> It's It [laughter] does though. It's. Disney movies. >> They've ruined us. >> It's Disney movies. >> How feels like he was in the part where. he was watching Snow White [laughter]. and there was a rat and 20 minutes long. He was like, >> "Oh, this was the cat and the mouse that. went off for 20 [laughter] minutes.". >> I loved that. with the be zigzag. Simply. so wait before otherwise wait otherwise.

>> otherwise. >> So [laughter] now be before we let you. go. >> Yes. >> Who is your favorite [laughter]. >> between the two of. >> animated character? >> Oh, I can't answer. Why am I having such. difficult? No, I told you. Peppa Peppa. Pig's grandfather. >> Peppa Pig's grandfather. >> who who brought back Yes. Peppa Pig's. grandfather is my reigning current. Um, and it might be I'm also fond of. Maleficent, who my daughter describes as.

magnificent, >> which is so great. You know, she's the. witch in. >> What is she the witch in? Which one? >> Uh, she's got the curly. >> She's got the horns. >> Yeah. What is Isn't. >> Yeah. Maleficent. Snow White. Snow. White. >> No. Is she from Snow White? >> No, she's in um Sleeping Beauty. >> Oh, she's in Sleeping Beauty. Got it. Yes. Yeah. >> And for some reason, so today my. daughter went to school in a dress that. was foned with just just with. Maleficent. >> Huh. >> I don't know who what. >> has she watched the spin-off or she just. likes her as the villain?

>> Well, she's f what what happens is every. time Maleficent comes on the screen, who. she calls Magnificent, she um she turns. to me, she goes, and I'm not speaking, she goes, "Hush daddy, don't say. anything." She doesn't want she's so. riveted by the possibility of drama. involving Maleficent that she [laughter]. wants to make sure that I don't step in. and like right on her parade. Meanwhile, she's watched like seven times. I'm. like, I don't say anything. I'm just. sitting here. >> But um no, she's quite militant in her.

uh in her watching of uh. Sleeping Beauty. >> What's your favorite cartoon character? >> Me? >> Yeah. >> Of all time. >> Yes. Ah, you now you put me on the spot. because I haven't been watching them. recently like Malcolm has. >> Yeah, but old school, new school. >> Let me think. Let me think. Oh, do you. have a favorite? >> Absolutely. >> Remy from Ratatouille. >> Oh, that's an interesting choice. >> I mean, it was like I can create a human. joystick. >> Huh. I see what you did there. I see. I.

see what you did. >> Ability to stop him. >> I see what you did there. Nicely done. >> Oh, thank you. >> Nicely done. >> You know what I like about you? >> You're willing to admit when I'm light. [laughter]. Welcome, Gladwell. Thank you for joining. us. >> Thank you. This is very fun. >> This has been a lot of fun. I hope to. see you again. >> Yes. [music]. >> This is really great. Thank you. >> Thank you. >> That was fun. >> Thank you so much for watching the. episode. If you enjoyed it, pass it on. to a friend. If you didn't enjoy it,

pass it on to your friend still. Let. them suffer for a change. And don't. forget to engage with us in the. comments. uh if you want to suggest a. guest, maybe there's questions you want, [music] maybe there's ideas that you. have, you can chat to us. We will read. through the comments and we'll get into. [music] it. Either way, I appreciate you. taking the time. Thank you for hanging. out with us on What Now. And remember, we do this for you, [music] so we would. like to hear from you. Till next time, thank you.